Saudi Arabia/World: Unwelcome: The Muslims Next Door

CNN recently aired a special entitled “Unwelcome: The Muslims Next Door.”  This special came about due to an outcry of reactions in the town of Murfreesboro, Tennessee, when its Muslim residents raised funds in order to build a new Islamic Center.  What had been the appearance of a Norman Rockwell town which exuded friendliness, peace and tolerance was torn apart when a simple sign beside an undeveloped plot of land was placed announcing it was the future site of an Islamic Center.  Muslim residents who had either been born in Murfreesboro or had lived there for many years were suddenly viewed with fear and suspicion.  Why did this quiet town need what some of its non-Muslim residents viewed as a ‘palatial size building of Islam’ when its Muslim residents were such a small community?  Was the town going to be overcome and overgrown with Muslims and be a new hub of home grown “Islamic terrorism?”  Why Murfreesboro’s Muslim residents are feared so much?  It is truly they who are feared or ignorance of the religion, Islam?  The CNN special contained actual scenes from the courtroom where the question of whether Islam is a real religion was raised.  Among objections to the building of the Islamic Center were increased traffic flows and disruption to water supply.  The sign was vandalized and construction equipment was destroyed by arson.  Dividing lines have been drawn across Murfreesboro residents.

Here is the first of six videos which present the CNN special.  I encourage American Bedu readers to view all six videos in order to open up discussion and dialogue on why Islam and Muslims are feared so much in middle America.  Which is feared more?  Islam?  Muslims? Yet aren’t we as God’s children instructed by God within the Ten Commandments to Love thy Neighbor?  If we cannot love thy neighbor, how can we hope for eternal life?

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126 Responses

  1. While no one should be discriminated against because of one’s belief, one can understand why most non-Muslims are suspicious of Muslims in recent years.

    Prior to 9/11 most Americans have had no exposure to Islam, its teachings or tradition. the attack on the US by mostly Saudi nationals set off an avalanche of unprecedented media investigation of Islam, its adherents and their customs.

    What people saw, read and observed was alien to them, but also undesirable. ,

    They saw Muslim women clad in black from head to toe. They read about treatment of women in Muslim lands. They saw and heard about discrimination against non-Muslims and Muslim minorities. They read about and experienced taboos that they can not logically understand or appreciate. They saw gender segregation, Muslims slaughtering Muslims because of religious differences and non-Muslims worship places set afire. They also learned that non-Muslims cannot build worship sanctuaries or even practice their faiths publicly in most Muslim countries.

    American reactions to Muslims and Muslim mosques have to be put in their proper perspective in order to understand why many Americans resent Islam and Muslims.

    Contrary to what many Muslims and their little apologists say: the Americans resent Islam because they do not understand it, the truth is more Americans know more about Islam now than at anytime in their history.

  2. ali Aliyami practically took the words out of my mouth. We are probably the most religiously diverse country on the planet. So many faiths living relatively peacefully side by side. But one needs to ask themselves why Islam in particular?

    People are afraid of Islam because of what they see and how it is practiced. and quite frankly, I think people are afraid if Muslims ever get any kind of political power they wouldn’t hesitate to turn the west into another version of Islamic lands and subjugate those who are not Muslim. They will try to change our culture and laws and way of life. They have this fear because in this day and age of global media they see it everywhere where Muslims are the majority. If msulims had equal rights for all and democracy and no corruption and no compulsion in religion then I don’t think non Muslims would care so much…

  3. Mr. Ali is very calm, collected and rational. Your name suggests that you are a Muslim yourself. For a Muslim, you are seeing this situation objectively. I wish I had your gift regarding this issue….


  4. I looked at your website Mr. Ali. You are a fabulous writer and although I would love to sit and read it now, my anthropology reading assignment is the order of the evening. I hope to revisit it at another date.


  5. I hear this fear among many people and even my church is hosting a three night series on Islam starting Sunday. I hope the guy will be fair and I think he will, but I do know my preacher said we’ve heard “the PC version” but he wanted us to know the truth about Islam. He thinks it’s one of our biggest things to watch out for in the future. :-/ One of the speakers is a former Muslim from Ghana. I’m really hoping it will leave the people with compassion for Muslims even if they can’t abide Islam.

    I’m personally not a fan of Islam although understanding it in its context helps a great deal. And I do try to be fair in explaining how Muslims understand those difficult topics (since I want people to be fair in explaining how we Christians believe things that seem outlandish to them.)

    I remember hearing how Muslims viewed Westerners. There were the Crusades and then over the years the wound never had time to heal. When it started healing, along came another Western militant (whom the Muslims would assume were crusaders part 2, 3,4 ,etc) and pull the scab off the wound. Thus the festering never stopped. Well, now I think in the reverse. There was 9/11 which was a huge wound for our nation. And ever since then, whenever we try to heal and believe Muslims are peaceful and Islam is a religion of peace, along comes yet another attack by a Muslim. So the scab gets pulled off again. People get suspicious and fearful and think Muslims are out to change our world into theirs. They start reading about Islam and find out that it was spread by the sword and think people who revere their prophet to the extent that they imitate every.single.aspect of his life would find inspiration for spreading Islam from him. Thus you have the extreme Muslims who give all of Islam a bad name for many.

    I watched this video last week and had very mixed emotions because I am a southerner from a small area so I could relate to those people’s fears (my own family/friends are sometimes this way), yet my best friend is from Syria and nearly everyone I met during our stay there was Muslim. Yet they were among the best people I’ve ever met. This “clash” makes me sad and divides me often.

    I do think loving your neighbor would go a long way and Jesus’ command to love your enemies leaves those who claim to follow Him quite a standard to live by.

  6. I don’t disapprove of the Murfreesboro mosque, but I do think that Muslims need to start seeing how they appear to others. Maybe this mosque is funded by private donations, but many in the US receive assistance from Saudi Arabia, and Americans are right to fear the influence of countries like Saudi Arabia. Islam does not practice separation of Church and State and that is hardly something comforting to Americans. Mosques in the US have been centers for terrorism (remember the blind sheik in Jersey City).

    Muslim congregations need to make sure their Imams are fluent in English and are familiar with US custom. I was raised Catholic, a few generations ago Catholic clerics often dressed oddly (a bit like Muslims but in black with lace). Today Catholic nuns often dress much like other women. Priests usually are only distinguised by a collar. Muslim clerics start living like they are in America, not in Egypt, dress like American men when not running a prayer service. It was only after WWII when Catholics moved to the suburbs that the Catholic church started acting like a truly American church. Muslim institutions in the US need to find a way to be American Muslims, not just foreign Muslim institutions who are unhappily situated here.

  7. Susanne…

    I hear you. I am sometimes conflicted…not about Islam which I don’t care for (but would probably like a whole lot better if the nicer earlier verses weren’t abrogated by the nastier later ones and everyone lived it like that in the middle east), but about the many Muslims that are quiet and just want to mind their own business. Yet there are many in the ME who we could call nice who if pressed would probably not change much about their societies in terms of equality for other faiths or human rights…so I have to ask myself how nice are they when they have power? People are not willing totake that chance. They are fine now…when they don’t have the majority,but even in the USA in areas where they have the majority there is conflict.

  8. I wanted to add…

    If I remember correctly they said that the mosque was going to be something like 50,000 sq ft and that there were only 200 Muslims in town. Seems like a whole lot of footage for 200 people. I think they got a little spooked that it was in preparation for many more people to come…that could be a game changer in a small town.

  9. Oby,

    I don’t know if you have ever been to Tennessee but there are a lot of relatively small congregations with a lot of land, so the size is not really unusual (one wonders who is paying the bill, though).

  10. Sad & Bad when one cannot be free to build & worship as they so desire in america. what happened ot the land of the free.
    Yes muslims dominated area are not doing well, but that is there and this is US. I understand the fear and hate but that is outside the law which states everyone is free to pray to any god they like.the key being FREE.. i hope that doesn’t get taken away .

  11. Salam Carol,

    Its been a looonngg time! I still check you out when I get a chance and I think about you alot! Hope all is well with you and your family. I saw this the second time it was on. The first time I only caught the last 15 mins. The thing I find so amazing is the fear the people of this town have for sharia law. I believe they said there were about 200 muslim families in a town of 40,000 people? How do they think this small minority of their towns population are going to take them over and the rest of american citizens are just going to stand by and let it happen too?

  12. Watched the whole documentary. What I like about America is that while you may have one group of people protesting against the mosque, there immediately is another group of people supporting the mosque.

    And of course there is no reason people cannot build a mosque, especially in America which is a secular country and which in it’s constitution guarantees freedom of religion for everybody.

    So what they managed to get a lot of money together, it was what? about $1000 per family, that’s not impossible at all. And it is clear that their current mosque is way to small. So of course they need a bigger place. It’s a center, with other buildings than a mosque.
    And what’s up with the Sharia fobia? A mosque doesn’t equal implementation of sharia!
    Which will never happen anywhere in America anyway, because Americans are lucky enough to live in a firmly established secular country where no religion is allowed to influence government and law.
    I hope the mosque gets build soon.
    Enjoyed the documentary.

  13. As a woman who has lived in Saudi for nearly a decade, I come down firmly on the side of the folks in Tennessee and elsewhere who know enough to be concerned about what Islam represents – an intolerant and absolute social value system. I have seen how that system can and does manifest itself, individually, in families, communities, the workplace and globally and it is not the politically correct version of things newscasters and Hollywood influencers would like us to believe.

    Thanks for sharing the documentary, Carol. Hope all is well with you.

  14. I think jerry Is correct. Who is paying for it? And what will that mean in terms of the way Islam will be practiced? That sweet faced lovely girl who is telling us that it is her right to worship…the one who was not covered in black or we ring a veil…how might she change her attitudes and both outer and inner appearance if it is paid for by wHabbi/salami money? Might the lessons that she will hear there change her from someone who obviously seems to fit into her society to one that will find increasing conflict with the community around her…will her neighbors suddenly become “kuffar”? Will she begin to think of them and herself in a different way due to Salafi money? I hope aafke is right in that it is coming from the famlies themselves…if it is financed by Saudi money, it could have a very different outcome.

  15. wahabi/Salafi

  16. Having a mosque does not equate to sharia law. What happen to secularism in the US?
    I grew up half my time in a “Norman Rockwell” town in New England and it is quite conservative but everytime a new religious group moved into the community no one was really affected by it, except the ocassionally ” I have good news” at your door step from the LDS.

  17. I didn’t watch the whole thing but I have been following the story since the protests first started. While it IS unfortunate that there are ignorant people out there that would want to cause problems for Americans who just want to practice their religion in a nice place they can be comfortable in and proud of. BUT, I think this is much ado about nothing considering that there ARE counter protests by other non-Muslims that are welcoming the Islamic Center as well as the LAW that is on their side. If this was a group that was being run out of town by villagers with torches and the police refused to help THEN we might have a story.

    So, why can’t this story be told from the angle of how great it is in America where people stand up for each other even when they do not share the same religious beliefs but they DO share the same respect for The Constitution?

    I’m curious about what a conservative Saudi’s take on this story would be. Do they see it as an example of American Islamophobia or do they see an exaple of remarkable tolerance and acceptance(considering 9/11 etc)? What would the story look like if it were about a group of Catholics that wanted to build a church in Riyadh?

  18. “What would the story look like if it were about a group of Catholics that wanted to build a church in Riyadh?”

    Published: Monday 04 April 2011

    Christian evangelist faces death penalty in Saudi Arabia

    An Eritrean Christian is facing the death penalty in Saudi Arabia after being arrested for sharing his faith with Muslims.

    Mussie Eyob was detained by the authorities at a mosque in Saudi’s second largest city, Jeddah, on 12 February. He had gone there to meet and talk with local Muslims after speaking about Christianity at the Eritrean Embassy for three days. Eyob was arrested for preaching to Muslims, an offence that carries the death penalty in Saudi Arabia.

    Eyob, who was initially assumed to have mental health problems, was examined by doctors, who confirmed that he is fit for trial and sentencing. He was then transferred to the notorious high-security Briman Prison. His family are very concerned for his welfare there.

    They visited Eyob on 20 March and found that he had lost weight, though he was in relatively good spirits. He said that he is ready to die for his faith in Christ.

    Eyob, who committed to follow Christ just over two years ago, felt compelled to share his faith with local Muslims, despite the danger.

    Saudi Arabia is a strictly Islamic country that follows an extreme and puritanical version of Islam, Wahhabism. The country claims that the Quran is its constitution and that all its laws and regulations are promulgated in line with sharia, which prescribes the death penalty for converts from Islam. Consequently most converts keep their faith secret.

    All forms of public religious activities other than those consistent with the government’s own interpretation of Sunni Islam are banned. The government has stated that expatriate Christians, of whom there are many in Saudi Arabia, are free to worship in private. But the religious police (mutawaah) sometimes raid private worship services.

    The country has one of the highest rates of executions in the world. In late 2009, Amnesty International denounced the presence of at least 141 people on death row in Saudi Arabia, including 104 foreign nationals.

  19. Suzanne,

    The Crusades were 900 years ago. If a Muslim wants to mention them, fine, but he/she better had mention jihad, Islamic wars of conquests and the attacks of their dear prophet on his neighbors in the next sentence. Of course, Muslims do not do this. Their sins and immorality is of no consequence bacause the only requirement for Islam is faith in Allah and Mohmamad. Then, just as now, what Muslims do or how they treat others is irrelevant. There is no morality in Islam, just little routines and rules.

    I saw the CNN program and, as expected, it was sympathetic to those nice, misunderstood Muslims. Oh those horrible redneck bigots! The put a nice old gentlemen and sweet your girl on to explain that Islam is peaceful and they are 101% Americans, believe in equality, respect others, and only want to worship in peace. Not a single word about the things that Muslims do where they dominate, about the vile things in the Quran or the evil deeds of their dear prophet. Muslims can always count on the media and government to support them.

    It was a sad day when Muslims came to the West. They came and brought their evil ideology with them. Even the so-called moderates and good Muslims will not change this because they can’t stand up to the radicals. Also, note that becoming a Muslim requires a new mentality (submission) so facts, common values and basic logic must be rejected.

    Tina, please explain why a person should not be concerned by even one person lives next door that represents an ideology that teaches hate and violence, or says “praise be upon him” after the name of a man that did the things that your dear prophet did. If you don’t understand the question you have never read the Quran and ahadith.

    Jerry, did won’t make any difference if ” Imams are fluent in English and are familiar with US customs” because their values are different. Period. They accept Mohammad so they don’t really believe in equality and human rights, at least for all. They believe that morality is relative – that things are wrong for some but fine and dandy for others (for example: discrimination and attacking others).

    Oby, Jerri – my guess is that these people are getting money from outside – probably the same people that pay for, build and staff so many mosques in the US and Europe – the Saudis.

    Radha, instead of “fear and hate” why not consider “dislike and disgust”. Perhaps Muslims should realize that it is not fear but simple dislike for the things that Islam teaches and the things that Muslims do. Why do Muslims think they should get a pass on the vile dogma in the Quran, or not be condemned for what they do? Do you think we should trust people that will not consistently condemn attacking others, plunder, torture, enslavement or rape – to name a few things? Radha, if you are Muslim you have no right to express any opinion using the words “cannot be free to build & worship as they desire”. Do you understand that or must I explain it?

    Oh yes, didn’t the Muslims win the Crusades?

  20. Ali, I looked at your website, particularly this page:

    I have run across your organization before so it is not new to me. Even so, I don’t have enough time now to reseach it.

    My quick 2-minute impression: It is either a noble group of people engaged in a very worthy cause, one that I can support, or it is an Islamist group using a bunch of sweet words (ones that appeal to Westerners) and naive people to condemn and attack the House of Saud and replace it with their equally bad religious dogma. Which is it?

    I am always skeptical of people and organizations. Experience has shown that people wanting change often do not deliver, and worse- are as bad or worst than those they replace. One must be cynical until sure.

    Tell me one thing, answer just one question: do you believe that Mohammad did anything evil in this rise to power?

    Thanks, JK

  21. Yes,I was assuming that jay…suadi money will most likely prevail. I don,t know how much it will cost to build but a building that size will have a hefty price. Far more than 200 families will be able to afford. Just to add 500 seats to our church and move the walls back a bit was quite substantial.

    I think it is probably foolish to think Saudi money will not be involved. I think Denmark made a rule and refused to accept money from Saudi….hmmmm….interesting thought.

    I wish that we had the ability to see 10 or 15 years into the future and we could revisit some of the issues we have debated on Bedu. Time moves very slowly and changenis insidious…if we could look back and see how this Muslim community changed from the influx of Saudi money I think it might put a lot of the question to rest…either we would see a significant change trending toward ultraconservatism and how that impacted the community or we would see nothing of the sort and the community would continue along as is. Either way I would give anything to be able to compare the two side by side and answer the question one way or the other.

  22. My wife and I watched the CNN special in its entirety when it was first broadcast. The overarching message I got was that we americans are islamophobic and bigoted against muslims in america. Nothing can be farther from the truth. It only exists and is a figment of imagination in the minds of council on american muslim relations or CAIR and other Muslim Brotherhood sponsored/ fronts organizations. Of course, there is an ever-growing muslim victimhood industry in america.

    In 2008, America’s FBI found that 66.1% of religious hate crimes targeted Jews, but only 7.5% of religious hate crimes targeted Muslims. On March 29, 2011, The Center for Security Policy released a revised edition of their groundbreaking longitudinal study, Religious Bias Crimes 2000-2009: Muslim, Jewish and Christian Victims — Debunking the Myth of a Growing Trend in Muslim Victimization.

    It is based on annual FBI statistics and contradicts the assertions that religious bias crimes against Muslims have increased in America and that the alleged cause is widespread “Islamophobia.”

    In fact, the study shows that religious bias crimes — also known as hate crimes — against Muslim Americans, have remained relatively low with a downward trend since 2001, and are significantly less than the numbers of bias crimes against Jewish victims. According to the Center’s analysis, in 2009, Jewish victims of hate crimes outnumbered Muslim victims by more than 8 to 1 (1,132 Jewish victims to 132 Muslim victims).

    From 2000 through 2009, for every one hate crime incident against a Muslim, there were six hate crime incidents against Jewish victims (1,580 Muslim incidents versus 9,692 Jewish incidents). Even in 2001 when religious bias crimes against Muslims increased briefly for a nine-week period, total anti-Muslim incidents, offenses and victims remained approximately half of the corresponding anti-Jewish totals.”

    It is also worth noting that nearly 700 mosques have been built in America over the last decade, since 9/11.

    Nevertheless, American Muslims have alleged rampant “Islamophobia” in America. Countless number of Talking Heads have taken this allegation seriously. Despite what may have gone on in Murfreesboro with the mosque its adherents have wanted to build, the larger story of anti-Islamic bias in America does not hold water.

    Thus, it is not surprising that CNN aired this documentary which was inflammatory titled Not Welcome: The Muslims Next Door.

    On camera, the Muslims are all so very…peaceful.

    There is not one angry or hate-filled Muslim man on camera. Not one. Despite the fact that we have seen hundreds, possibly thousands of angry, frightening, violent Muslim demonstrations, including prayer services, all across America and across the Islamic world, and many hate-filled captured Islamic and Palestinian terrorists on camera, CNN’s chosen Muslim-American men of Murfreesboro, Tennessee, including the Sheikh of the planned Islamic Center, are all soft-spoken, emotional, tearful, non-violent. Except for the Sheikh’s American wife who converted to Islam, the Muslims on camera are all innocent, good, non-white people.

    Soledad O’Brien, CNN’s special anchor, likes them, and, as someone with Afro-Cuban as well as Caucasian Australian parents, perhaps she even identifies with them. In any event, O’Brien questions them very politely, sympathetically.

    However, the white, Christian-Americans on camera—all of them, without exception—are portrayed as hateful, cruel, insidious, dislikable, selfish, phobic, and no doubt racist. O’Brien interviews them with barely disguised hostility and contempt.

    At issue, according to CNN’s website are America’s post-9/11 fears about radical Islam, terrorism, and “Sharia Law.” As CNN sees it:

    “Murfreesboro, Tennessee has just over 100,000 people, 140+ churches, and one mosque. For decades, Muslims have lived and prayed in Murfreesboro without incident, but last May, when the Muslim community gained county approval to build a new 52,000 square foot Islamic center in town, hundreds of Murfreesboro residents took to the streets in protest….

    O’Brien chronicles the dramatic fight to block the mosque project in Murfreesboro and the fight over religious freedom; a fight that would ultimately include protests, vandalism, arson and an explosive lawsuit that would involve the U.S. Department of Justice.”

    What’s wrong with Murfreesboro is that it is too damn Christian and too damn white. It is not diverse enough. It is not south asian or middle eastern or saudi enough.

    O’Brien, herself a Harvard graduate, dresses as a modern American woman. She has absolutely no comment to make about the fact that most of the adult Muslim women on camera are all wearing long, shapeless dresses and severe hijab—while the Muslim men are all dressed in modern, American style.

    The Sheikh’s wife insists that women are not “oppressed” under Sharia Law, that she is not oppressed, that no Muslim woman she knows has ever been oppressed, etc.

    Interestingly enough, the Sheikh has a foreign accent. One wonders why so many Sheiks have been imported from the Middle East or saudi arabia to America.

    Asra Nomani is a religious Muslim feminist who was born in India and raised in America. Her father founded the mosque of Morgantown, West Virginia. Nomani tried to persuade her mosque to become more woman-friendly. She failed. In a PBS documentary about this story, Nomani claimed that when Arab/saudi Muslims joined her mosque, her battle to bring it into the 21st century failed.

    On camera, she says:

    “Extremists — mainly Arabs — led by one rather physically and verbally violent Egyptian, Hany Ammar, took over. At that point, I began hearing really scary sermons. An unchaste woman is worthless. The West is on a bad path. We must hate those who hate us. Women should be silent in a mosque. Jews are descendants of apes and pigs.”

    Incredibly, on camera, Ammar says: “I pray to Allah that you be punished. May Allah get revenge for Ammar.” Ammar is also heard, but not seen, physically attacking a young moderate Muslim man. Ammar’s wife Mona is even more conservative, more aggressive than he is. She minces no words in expressing her contempt, even hatred for Nomani.

    Like certain kinds of religious women, she is even more zealous in upholding the patriarchal status quo, more aggressively empowered to strike down any other woman who dares challenge male supremacy or Islamic gender apartheid.

    Ultimately, Ammar tries to ban Nomani from the mosque. Eventually, both she and her family leave.

    Why do I even bring this in? Because Murfreesboro’s Sheikh Ossama Mohamed Bahloul is also a foreign-born Arab Muslim.

    All this means is that he may (or may not) be a religious Muslim supremacist or an Islamist. Bahloul is an Egyptian-born graduate of Al-Azhar University in Cairo. He was the Imam of the Islamic Society of Southern Texas, in Corpus Christi, and then the visiting Imam for the Islamic Center of Irving, Texas.

    Sheikh Bahloul is not a terrorist, nor did he have anything to do with the trial of the Holy Land Foundation, a muslim brotherhood front, an organization which raised money for Hamas and was based in a suburb of Dallas, Texas.

    However, he was summoned from Egypt to work in Texas, and left for Murfreesboro a year after the Holy Land trial began. Texas is known as a hotbed of increasingly fundamentalist Islam. Perhaps Bahloul was chosen for his radical beliefs and for his ability to mask them as something else. After all, his wife is dressed as if they live in Cairo, not in America.

    To me, this is a sign and signal of a desire to live in a parallel universe, one in which Muslims are taught that they are superior to non-Muslims; one in which Muslims are taught to hate Jews and other infidels; one in which Muslims are taught that Sharia Law is, indeed, superior to American law.

    That is why CNN invites Harvard Professor Noah Feldman on. He assures people that “Our constitution prohibits any religion from becoming the law of the land.”

    It does. But look at how Sharia law and/or Islamic custom has usurped the law of the land both in Europe and in America, where female genital mutilation, child arranged marriage, polygamy, the burqa and honor killings are pandemic.

    An Egyptian father killed his two American daughters in Irving, Texas. Yaser Said came from Egypt, married his American-born wife when she was fifteen years old, honor murdered their daughters in 2008, and then fled. He has yet to be found.

    A series of attacks were perpetrated against the building of the mosque. “Not Welcome” was spray painted on the sign which announced the mosque opening, arson was perpetrated, a lawsuit was brought. The graffiti and the arson are unacceptable. But no one who opposes the mosque is given a fair hearing or the slightest respect on camera. And, Sheikh Bahloul may be as clever as he is soft-spoken. In a very emotional but determined voice, pitched precisely to gain sympathy for his cause he says: “This is America. This is too much.”

    Ah, so the Egyptian-born Sheikh understands America and fully knows what his rights are here. Funny, he only arrived here post 9/11. Actually, for all I know, he could have arrived here sooner or more recently. None of his many biographies and interviews share this information with us.

    Is he, perhaps, a secret lover of Zion, an admirer of the American way of life, a Sufi-style peaceful Sunni Muslim?

    He graduated from the most prominent school of Islamic learning in the Sunni world. If he is really a man for the 21st century, he will have to take some very prominent and public stands which prove that this is so.

    This entire controversy on muslim mosques didn’t start until after the proposed Cordoba Mosque project on hallowed ground zero/9-11 site. There was no controversies about building mosques prior to that. Muslims named it “Cordoba Mosque”, which has great significance in muslim history and minds. It is akin to planting the islamic flag of conquest on our most hallowed site to remind the kafirs about Cordoba which muslims conquered and then lost centuries ago. Imam Rauf further added fuel to the fire when he threw the proverbial dirt in kaffirs’ eyes, following the example of his Prophet Mohammed who used to do that prior and during his wars with the kaffirs of the day to wish them evil and defeat.

  23. BTW, I apologize for the very long rant but I couldn’t help it :)-

  24. It is still fact that in America, a secular, developed and civilized country, these families have the law on their hand, they are, or should be free, to build their own place of worship.
    Of course things would be different in a country like Saudi Arabia which is none of these. How does that have implications for American Muslims?
    I wonder if there’s not a bit of jealousy going on there, because they managed to get so much money together and can now move from a grotty, miniature shack to a really nice building?

    I agree with Lynn, you have bigots everywhere, and in America there will be instant counter protests to the contrary. I have seen that a lot since I became interested in America.
    It’s one of the greatest strengths of America. Together with it’s secular constitution.

    Sure, have a look at where the money really comes from, keep an eye out for what’s being preached in that centre, but the bottom line is: Everybody in America is free to follow whatever religion they want. Even if they have a ”Jesus camp”, or keep their children at home to denie them a proper education and teach them non-scientific religious nonsense, or collect huge funds to build ridiculous anti-evolution museums, or fund the ”discovery institute”, dedicated to creationism. people are free to do these stupid things.
    And the normal intelligent people will just have to be aware of that and make sure the religious nutters do not get the upper hand.

    Jay, every religion requires you to leave all logic and free thinking behind. you can only belong to a religion when you abandon rational and critical thought, that is not different for islam than it is for any other religion.

    It’s always amazing to me that people can see the illogical and unsupported myths of other people’s religions for what they are: figments of imagination from the past, but when it comes to the one they choose or were indoctrinated into: total and utter blindness!

    I keep thinking of what Jessica wrote: once everybody is under Islamic rule all will be forced to abide by islamic ideas, women will be forced to wear hijab, alcohol will be prohibited, etc. I definitely think that Islam is a very suspect and dangerous religion, but that doesn’t mean American Muslims should have the same rights as other religious people in America. That is just what you have to deal with.

  25. Actually, Harry your rant DID make me ask myself a question…WHY do we need to import clerics from the me? the usa has a great tradition of higher education…these men are preaching to many native born American muslims and native converts. Is there not a school in the USA that can educate AMERICAN imams who have an American perspective and are sympathetic to the culture?

    I think the answer is probably that the mosques are built from Saudi money therefore they call the shots and put one of their guys in charge of the congregation.

    That does seem a bit odd that we have to import all the foreign born imams who naturally bring with them the practice of Islam as it is in the ME. I wonder if anyone has actually often statistics on this?

  26. ‘I definitely think that Islam is a very suspect and dangerous religion, but that doesn’t mean American Muslims should have the same rights as other religious people in America. That is just what you have to deal with.’

    I’m sure you meant ‘doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t have the same rights’.

    But, it also doesn’t mean that people should be protected from knowing what I now know about how, if trusted blindly, those people will happily tear your family apart for the sake of Allah. So yes, allow them their rights and let them into your community but be educated and beware. Just sayin’… 😉

  27. What we have to have trust in is that our governments both in Canada and the USA will NEVER allow Sharia law to be legal for anybody in their respective countries. Once we change the laws for religions we are in trouble. Canada has changed some laws to accommodate some religions and it is not a good thing IMHO. We are secular countries and should stay that way.

  28. as far as i’m aware there are shariah courts operating in UK already Wendy.

  29. Lynn, yes.

    But the UK is not completely secular, and I think they religious people give a misguided amount of leeway to other religions because they think they will be allies against the growing number of non-religious people in Europe.
    Countries like the Netherlands and Sweden are have large percentages of non-religious people.
    They are also amongst the most tolerant and happy people. I consider that a result of less religion; more freedom, more happiness, more prosperity.

  30. Lynn, the way I see it your daughter was hijacked by a sect. The destruction of family ties is the first object of a sect.

  31. I agree with Wendy, but I live in the USA and frankly I am not sure I trust the politicians to not do something stupid like let sharia gain a foothold.

    Having said that I see no reson why we can’t allow people to say for example, prepare and bury their dead as per their faith as long as it is not in direct conflict with USA law. Write wills and trusts that would allow them to distribute property as per their faith again as long as it doesn’t conflict with law.

    But to allow a man to relegate his wife to second class status and deny her her rights as she is allowed under USA law is NOT ok.I worry that the politically correct apologetics might let sharia gain a foothold to prove that they are not against Islam.

    For example, in the UN they ( OIC) have been trying to pass a blasphemy law that would in effect stifle any criticism of Islam…which in turn would directly affect free speech of Islam in the USA if I have understood it correctly. If that passes then even criticism of religions (although Islam is the only one named by name I believe) is off limits and considered hate speech. It hasnt passed yet, but they keep trying. To me the fact that it can even get considered is a bit scary. I don’t mean burning of korans…I mean criticism.

    Thankfully it hasn’t yet, but it is the Islamic world trying to do so.

  32. If I am misunderstanding the proposed law, please someone enlighten me.

  33. @Jay,

    “Radha, if you are Muslim you have no right to express any opinion using the words“cannot be free to build & worship as they desire”.

    No i’m Not muslim, But i’m married to a Muslim, I’m Hindu and hence he is not considered one among his muslim brethren for going outside of what the koran says 🙂 and his kids don’t follow islam ( oh got can there be a greater slight to the practising muslims around where i live 🙂 ) but I can an dmust use these words because I’m an american citizen, one who does not follow the mainstream religion, and one who is in minority ( hindu are i assume), I know muslims in middleeast don’t like any other religion practise int heir countries, but this freedom i talk about i talk inthe american context, eitherr US should change it’s laws and say no religious freedom or it allows it.

    I’m not a fan of the koran, nor do i think Islam is for me, I see too much in it that does not line up with the way i was taught religion should be. I’m more for private personal application of religions, however today if they don’t allow a mosque what will stop them from applying the same rule to a buddist monastry or hindu temple tomorrow ?

    I’ve lived in saudi and left since i couldn’t survive there due to various factors, I’m also from India where hindus and muslims co-exist and also batter each other 🙂 From my personal experience, there are few muslims who follow islam properly, rest abuse it under the guise of culture, as i woman i would convert only if i had a gun to my head still my beliefs apart inthe name of justice i think they should and can build as long as nothing illegal goes on. just my 2 cents

  34. @Aafke – ‘Lynn, the way I see it your daughter was hijacked by a sect.’

    Yes, Aafke, a sect that was very cleverly disguised as ‘Moderate Muslims’. 😉

  35. TINA: The thing I find so amazing is the fear the people of this town have for sharia law. I believe they said there were about 200 muslim families in a town of 40,000 people?

    First of all, Murfeesboro is a town of roughly 100,000 with a muslim population of less than 1,500 or 200 families. And with that tiny population, muslims are building a 52,000 sq ft mosque. I checked with an architect friend of mine, and he estimates total construction cost of such a venture to be at least between $1-M to $1.5M. Construction isn’t cheap even in the south.

    Citizens of Mf’boro are rightly concerned as to how this mega project is being financed by muslims given their tiny population. Obviously, muslims can’t take out a loan since interest/usury is haram in islam. Is it being financed by the saudi king or one of the saudi princes? Are the muslims in Mfs’boro going to be wahabized in their midst?

    Secondly, regarding creeping sharia is both the US and Canada, I will give a few examples:

    In a situation much like the 2008 Muslim assassination order against Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, here in Seattle cartoonist Molly Norris went into hiding at the FBI’s recommendation last spring after her “Everybody Draw Mohammed Day” hit Facebook. A Seattle newspaper said Norris is “essentially wiping away her identity” in reaction to a fatwa urging her killing issued by Anwar al-Awlaki, the radical Muslim cleric connected to the Fort Hood killings, the attempted Christmas Day airline bombing over Detroit and the failed Times Square bombing.

    And in February, radical Muslims announced plans to take their demand for American Shariah to the White House, calling for thousands of Islamists to rally on Pennsylvania Avenue. Its organizer, British Muslim cleric Anjem Choudary In an online video statement said: Muslims are obligated to implement Shariah law “immediately, wherever we are in the world,” and he said America can reverse “poverty, child abuse, rape, robberies, theft, crime and anarchy-type scenarios” only after the United States embraces the Islamic code for living. “We believe the whole of the world must be under Shariah, America is not blessed by God. The American dream has become a nightmare” Choudary said.

    A report has been published by the Center for Security Policy, which should be taken seriously by anyone with an interest in creeping sharia in our schools, universities, governments, laws and social issues. The 177-page report itself is entitled: “Shariah, The Threat to America, An exercise in competitive analaysis”:

  36. Very interesting comments – each and every one.

    I found the title of the documentary pretty much set the tone. It was meant to be a documentary that roused and shook people up. The reporter, in my view, did not ask full circled questions but rather “led the documentary” to its own inconclusive and concerning ending.

    Whether one supports or wishes to recognize Islam as a religion that is up to each person. However Muslims are people and created by God. Therefore, for all believers who wish to have eternal life, they must love thy neighbor.

    Yes; if I were doing such a documentary I would have asked more probing questions about dress, customs, practices, plans and funding. I would ask those questions to complete the documentary not to be provocative.

    Just like their remains great controversy that women will not be priests in Catholicism, there is a cultural bias on a woman becoming an imam of a mosque. However a good question was raised about whether there are any mosques in the USA whose imam or sheik is an American born American? I have a hunch that there are and without meaning to sound biased or racist, that imam or sheik may not be white. So would that start another debate?

    I was surprised how residents attempted to bring in (gross) misunderstandings of shariah law in court and even challenging that Islam was not a religion!

    America may be the land of the free but the legal system knows how to tie strong knots.

  37. Carol…

    I think it less important that the imam be white than he holds an allegience to the USA,her customs,her laws,her culture and not spread the idea that muslims are superior and sharia law trumps US law.

    Having said that there might be an issue with an imam who feels disenfranchised due to his race and brings this into his teaching. That could setup a whole other dynamic that could get ugly. For example, I recently read that most african americans come to islam via prison. I have NO idea if that is the case, but having a. Lot of hardened criminals in your faith who feel angry and wronged might not be a ggod thing. Again I have no idea if this is accurate,but I read it in a mainstream newspaper/magazine…not a religiously biased one.

  38. I get so surprised at how people react with Islam.

    And I get so disappointed with how irrational people’s fears are….be it towards Islam, communism, ect…it’s just insane. And for this to happen here in America is just embarrassing. We are better than that.

  39. @Oby – yes; it is true that many African-Americans convert to Islam while in prison. I am aware of this from an impeccable individual who had knowledge of such statistics. Now doing my own armchair analysis I think that this is due to some (not all) African-Americans in the US prison system have felt bigoted, discriminated and/or did not have a sense of guidance. While in prison they have chosen to read the Quran and likely circulate with other African-American Muslims in prison. They feel a bond and a calling to Islam.

    I only made the earlier remark about curiosity on whether there are any white American born Muslim Imam’s in the US just because I’m not aware of any. My comment is in no way to be discriminatory or inflammatory.

    You raised another very good issue…which should come first? Faith or country?

  40. Tiffany…irrational fears? Irrational means unlikely or never happen…we have already seen what Muslim extremists have done or attemtped to do on US soil. Why is our fear irrational? It’s not the quiet community of 2oo law abiding Muslims that go about their lives pretty much the same as an other person…it’s the one or two, 8 or 9 that decide they need to prove just how devoted they are to their religion.

  41. OBY: For example, in the UN they ( OIC) have been trying to pass a blasphemy law that would in effect stifle any criticism of Islam…which in turn would directly affect free speech of Islam in the USA if I have understood it correctly.

    Very recently, 57 muslim countries after some 12 years, decided to set aside campaign for U.N. resolutions “combating defamation of religion”, since the rest of the non-muslim world was against this idiotic proposal.

    Even so, 57 muslim countries/OIC have left themselves a loophole: “However, diplomats from Islamic countries have warned the council that they could return to campaigning for an international law against religious defamation if Western countries are not seen as acting to protect believers.” And you know which “believers” they mean.

    OIC had argued that such protection against defamation was essential to defend Islam, and other religions, against criticism that caused offense to ordinary believers. Note the perfunctory mention of “other religions.” But, no thanks, some of us have thicker skin than that.

  42. Tiffany said: I get so surprised at how people react with Islam. And I get so disappointed with how irrational people’s fears are….be it towards Islam, communism, ect…it’s just insane.

    Kudya Vudya pleez cite a few examples?????

  43. I am sorry if I gave the impression that your remark was inflammatory…I didn’t think so at all. I was trying to say that race is secondary to values. The race shouldn’t be important if Islam is for all, but the values of the country SHOULD transcend race IMO. (and those values will be different from country to country.)

    But you have brought up a very good point…should faith or country come first…I personally think that nationality and faith can exist side by side peacefully. People do it all the time in the USA and have little conflict. I do however think that Islam has a unique problem in that area.

    Islam is not just a religion but a form of governance. Many Muslims will say if the world were ruled by sharia the world would be wonderful and perfect and they believe that in the depths of their hearts. It matters not at all that there is not a single country on this planet that is ruled by sharia law that can even come close to the countries governed by secular law that offer the kind of human rights, freedoms, innovation, advances do, not to mention the freedom to practice your faith as you choose and NOT how your fellow Muslim says you should. For them, Sharia law or God’s law is the only one that counts and should trump all others. It never occurs to them, as it has to me, that if Sharia is so wonderful and Utopian why can’t we see even ONE example of it on the face of the earth?This belief that Sharia is the one true law sets up an internal conflict I think in many Muslims. And their faith will always come first. Because the religion is set up as an either/or proposition. Either you accept sharia as the one true law or you are not a true Muslim. By it’s definition I think it causes internal conflict. I am NOT referring to ALL Muslims but I am referring to many. Obviously there are many who do just fine. So since Sharia is God’s law and God must come first there is no way that the country can come first.

    For other faiths that do not have this governance component built into it there is no conflict to being loyal to your faith and loyal to your country.

    And IMO this is one of the biggest issues secular countries have with Muslims especially those that immigrate from societies who are ruled by God’s law…i think they always feel that it would be better if we weren’t so heathen and let God’s law aka sharia rule.

    But there is another option I think…

    I have posted this before and for those I am boring with this please excuse, but this guy does a nice job of explaining how Islam CAN coexist with secular law and not cause conflict. Rather it can be complimentary.

  44. Oby,

    Thank you for sharing the video of Dr. Zuhdi Jasser. Very insightful. Wish one could clone Dr. Jasser into 1.6 billion Jassers!!!!

    I checked out his website. It is awesome!


  45. Very interesting discussion. There are so many misconceptions here. I am going to add my 2 cents:

    – Islam is clearly a religion. Arguing otherwise is just silly.

    – Shariia will not be implemented in the US. There is no chance for such scenario as it goes against the first amendment of the constitution:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    To eliminate the first amendment Muslims must amend the constitution. This is a tall order. Check the link for the process . A camel passing through the eye of the needle comes to mind.

    – Building the mosque is protected by the constitution also based on the first amendment.

    – As a civilized country we should protect the rights of people to worship. However, we should also firmly protect the rights of anyone that wishes to criticize any and all religions. The protesters against the mosque should take this civil route instead of looking like bigoted neighbors.

  46. @coolred38

    If that’s the case, and we are going to have fear to that extreme, than every white middle age male should be feared as well since that is the typical serial killer and or rapist …and they don’t happen just 8 or so…they happen a few hundred times a year in every kind of location from every kind of back ground.

    That’s what I mean by irrational fear.
    It’s like worrying that 2012 will actually occur.

  47. you mean there is a chance that 2012 will not wipe us out??? ***wink wink***

  48. I haven’t watched the video yet (as I have a hard time sitting still watching TV/movies/etc.) but wanted to make some comments on the general subject and others’ comments.

    First of all, I am all for the building of Islamic Centers as long as they comply with local zoning, etc. regulations- the same as I’d expect from any other community center. To not allow people the freedom to practice their religion is unconstitutional as MoQ pointed out.

    Secondly, I just wanted to make a quick comment about Saudis funding the building of mosques in the US. Think of it this way:
    1)Overall, the Muslim population in the US is more of a minority compared to other religions (e.g. Christianity).
    2)There are a lot of Saudi students in the US studying on scholarship.
    3)The vast majority of Saudi students are practicing Muslims.(I would also imagine they’ll be expected to go to the mosque regularly when hanging out around other Saudi students, but I could be wrong? Anyone know about this?)

    From these things, I would expect that this would mean a large number of Saudi students attending the local mosque (depending on the number of Saudi students in the area). If they all go to the same mosque, the mosque may not be big enough to hold all the students in addition to their locals that choose to attend. This would mean needing larger facilities. If the Saudis are willing to contribute funds to have a larger mosque built so they have enough space to worship, where is the problem with this?

    Not only that, but by the Saudis contributing money to have the local mosque built, it will contribute to the local construction, etc. companies doing the work, meaning more money going in to the local economy.

    Just something to think about…

  49. Strangeone…

    I do agree that if all is on the up and up they have the right to build it. You do point out some very practical points such as construction…however, if building the mosque means bringing saudi style islam which I think is far less tolerant than non salafi islam I don’t think it is worth introducing that element into the community (if it is not already there) even if there is some gain for the community in terms of ancillary benefits.

    The problem with them contributing funds is that when they do that they call the shots and teach salafi islam. IMO that is not a win win for the community.

  50. I thought that I understood from what I did watch of this that not all the money has been raised already. They have enough to begin the first phase of the building. They can have other fundraisers later to pay for the next phase so it’s not like they HAVE to have Saudi money.

  51. Oby,
    People will believe what they want to believe. There are many ultra-conservative Christian groups in the US and no one fusses much about them existing. Why such a big deal about the Islamic centers, then?

    If people want to practice Salafi-style Islam, then it’s their personal choice. I don’t see how it harms the community. If and when people commit crimes, then they should be tried on those crimes based on US law. IMO they should not be discriminated against because of their religion.

    Security comes at the cost of freedom.

    No, they don’t have to have Saudi money, but when the members are Saudi (and/or Saudis want to contribute for whatever reason), then why stop them from contributing? This doesn’t make any sense. If the values of the Islamic Center have already been stated, then I would expect contributions to be taken to fund this, or what the local mosques already teach.

  52. Strangeone…

    I guess here we will have to agree to disagree. I am not a fan of ultra conservative Chrisitain groups either. They can be equally intolerant.

    But I think Salafi style Islam at it’s core does not dovetail nicely with the values of the USA. I didn’t say just any Islam. I am talking Saudi Islam. What I am talking about is an Islam that preaches intolerance of others…Muslims are better than everyone else, kuffars should not be spoken to because they will lead you astray etc. Yes, Christian fundamentalists do the same thing..and they are just as wrong in their philosophy IMO. Intolerance is bad no matter who it is..but can you imagine a fundamentalist Christian church trying to set up in Saudi? Why not? Because Salafi Islam tends to be intolerant. At least a Muslim group will not be murdered for trying to open a mosque even if it is in a fundamentalist area. (which I don’t think this area is but I could be wrong.)

    Have you read where a man in Saudi who converted from Islam to Christianity has been sentenced to death for preaching to Muslims? Now I think the guy is crazy if it turns out it is true as it is against the law at a minimum and at the worst can get you killed…legally. But this is the philosophy I am speaking about…a very intolerant one.

    I have no issues with a mosque…they have a right to have a worship center. But why should we be comfotable allowing people to fund a mosque that will likely (not 100%) lead to a more fundamentalist practice? Who says that Saudi islam is the be all and end all to islam? why can’t saudis worship at a mosque that was not funded by saudi money? A mosque that does not preach a fundamentalist doctrine?

    In the end there isn’t much one can do because the government will not/can’t stop the flow of saudi money to build mosques. But they aren’t building them to be nice. They are building them to preach their version of islam. If they wanted to build mosques and then put a really moderate american trained imam in who has an allegiance to the country and a feel for the culture no problem. I’d say build away…but it isn’t just the building…it is the philosophy that come with the building. and call me a fool, but it does worry me.

  53. Oby,
    I can agree to disagree with you.

    The only flaw I see in your logic is that US law is much different than Saudi law. I really don’t think it will cause problems in the US because of the laws in the US that protect people’s freedom of religion (or non-religion).

    IMO, I honestly think the main reason the Saudis are contributing money to build mosques in the US is that they need a place to worship while they are here and/or they want to help out the community here- kinda like a lot of other people who want to make a difference to the community that is their home away from home. Why does Saudi funding automatically equal a fundamentalist doctrine?

    I am neither for or against any given religion as far as what other people personally believe -it’s their choice. If I don’t agree with a certain religion or religious practice, then I don’t have to be a part of it myself. There are things I agree with and disagree with in every major religion as they are practiced today. However, I still am a monotheist (not atheist). I still believe that meditation & prayer/wishful thinking can make a difference or at the very least influence our actions. I believe that our spirit goes on living after our bodies die. That’s about it, though.

    And yes, I am in favor of moderate (not fundamentalist) ideology of any given religion. Just wanted to be clear that I don’t really have a preference to one religion over another as far as what other people choose to believe. As for me personally, I don’t feel comfortable going to most churches because of the fundamentalist and elitist beliefs that a lot of Christians have. However if others want to go to church, that’s fine by me! Just don’t expect me to go unless it’s out of respect for the person(s) inviting me.

    Out of curiosity, what effect(s) do you think preaching “their” version of Islam will have on the community there? What exactly are you against as far as what they might be preaching? And if it’s not in violation with the law (which I doubt would be the case), what’s the problem with what others choose to believe?

  54. Considering the disgusting state of a great many mosques and adjoining bathrooms inside Saudi…they would do better to spend the money at home making those place something close to decent again. Why send the money abroad when you should spend it at home?

  55. I am sure the Saudis think they are doing good by funding mosques around the world, but they are not. They are funding bigotry (just look for the words apes, pigs and jews and see what comes up in google) and backwardness.

  56. If Saudis away from home need to pray let them do it in the privacy of their hotel rooms or rentals. Let them be treated as they treat others.

  57. “Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world…. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers] Islam says Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us Islam says Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender to the enemy Islam says Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Koranic] verses and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.” Ayatollah Khomeini 1942.

  58. StrangeOne said: IMO, I honestly think the main reason the Saudis are contributing money to build mosques in the US is that they need a place to worship while they are here and/or they want to help out the community here- kinda like a lot of other people who want to make a difference to the community that is their home away from home. Why does Saudi funding automatically equal a fundamentalist doctrine

    Let’s not be too naive about saudis and their intentions. While I fully believe in the freedom of and from religion, let’s also keep a critical eye on home- grown muslim terrorism and global islamic terrorism.

    Lest we forget, many of the muslim jihadis who have committed acts of terrorism, or tried to, here in the US, attended local mosques where they got mesmerized by the local wahabi imams in the glories of martyrdom and pearly boys and virgin houries awaiting them in paradise.

    Chances are we haven’t a clue who the real enemy is! One basic truism in today’s world is that to get answers, one follows the money. After all, nowadays it’s money that makes the world go around. So how about terrorism and the spread of violent, fundamental Islam?

    Turns out that it works for that too. But first, let’s define violent Islam. It’s called Wahhabism.

    Threatened by wahabism within the saudi kingdom, and fearful that the radicals in Tehran would assert their own leadership of the Muslim world, the Saudis went on a spending spree. From 1975 through last year, the kingdom spent over $70 billion on overseas aid, according to a study of official sources by the Center for Security Policy (CSP), a Washington think tank. More than two thirds of that amount went to “Islamic activities”-building mosques, religious schools, and Wahhabi religious centers, says the CSP’s Alex Alexiev, a former CIA consultant on ethnic and religious conflict.

    The Saudi funding program, Alexiev says, is “the largest worldwide propaganda campaign ever mounted”-dwarfing the Soviets’ propaganda efforts at the height of the Cold War. The Saudi weekly Ain al-Yaqeen last year reported the cost as “astronomical” and boasted of the results: some 1,500 mosques, 210 Islamic centers, 202 colleges, and nearly 2,000 schools in non-Islamic countries. So they paid their own fundamentalists to cause trouble anywhere but at home. Nice, eh.

    Key to this evangelical tour de force were charities closely tied to Saudi Arabia’s ruling elite and top clerics. With names like the Muslim World League and its affiliate, the International Islamic Relief Organization, the funds spent billions more to spread Wahhabism. The IIRO, for example, took credit for funding 575 mosques in Indonesia alone.

    Accompanying the money, invariably, was a blizzard of Wahhabist literature. Wahhabist clerics led the charge, causing moderate imams to worry about growing radicalism among the faithful. Critics argue that Wahhabism’s more extreme preachings-mistrust of infidels, branding of rival sects as apostates, and emphasis on violent jihad-laid the groundwork for terrorist groups around the entire world.

    The charities were part of an extraordinary $70 billion Saudi campaign to spread their fundamentalist Wahhabi sect worldwide. The money helped lay the foundation for hundreds of radical mosques, schools, and Islamic centers that have acted as support networks for the jihad movement, in the US and worldwide.

    Saudis keep their status as a valued ally of US yet push the terrorists out of their own country and pay for their existence and actions over the rest of the planet. They seem to be hoping that the world will finally cry “enough!” and wipe Al-qaida out so the Saud family can stay in business:)-

  59. ok here’s an insight i acquired recently, Apparently the koran goes bythe premise that “if you don’t finish off the non-believers they will finish you “…
    this could be true inthose days, nowadays the other religions have toned down a bit. Unfortunately the koran cannot be updated and henc ethis piece of goo dnews didn’t make it’s way into the koran..

    So somehow while educating the imams and people who follow blindly they have to put in somewhere that kill or get killed logic is past the due date…

    or atleast this is the reasoning from my 19yr old’s brain 🙂

  60. Wendy, I disagree. Our governments could allow sharia under the guise of culture, if not religion. They have embraced multiculturalism and political correctness so much that criticism of non-Western societies and cultures, no matter how valid, is not only discouraged but may be subject to penalties. Our leaders have betrayed us. Look at Europe. They have let millions of Muslims come and set up parallel societies that range from mildly separate to very antagonistic to the host countries. Europe will explode in a few years and Muslims will blame everybody but themselves and their actions. .

    Radha, good for you! I can see that your husband is one of those wishy-washy Muslims that doesn’t take Islam too seriously. Good for him. As to Hinduism, may I say that Muslims would be much better off if they would throw out the Koran and dedicate themselves to the Kama Sutra. We too.

    Strange one – Why do you always ignore the reality of Muslim societies? You act as if Muslims have nothing to do with Islam. You don’t see how “Salafi-style Islam” “harms the community”? Well, let me let you in on a little secret: Fundamentalist Islam always discriminates against non-Muslims. Salafis make it a habit of cursing non-Muslims day in and day out. As if the radicals were not bad enough, the so-called moderates just cant seem to stop their brothers from doing these things? Not only that, the so-called moderates seem to have no real problem with the hate and violence in Islam’s dogma. They may ignore it, they may not practice it personally, but they do not denounce or renounce it.

    Let me put it in this way: does anyone think that Muslims in the USA are any different from their brethren in Islamic societies? Until Muslims in Islamic societies start allowing freedom of expression, freedom of religion, allow non-Muslims to open churches and temples, until they repeal the apostasy laws and start treating women and gays as human beings, I see no reason to trust them. There is also the fact that Muslims – even those in the USA – even the most liberal ones, will not condemn the hate and violence against non-Muslims in the Quran and hadith. That tells me all I need to know about Muslims.

    Strange One, Let me ask you the same question I asked Ali – will you condemn your prophets unprovoked attacks on innocent non-Muslims? That is the bottom line for a Muslim.

  61. About Dr. Jasser.

    I like the guy and the last time I saw him I even told him I felt sorry for him and that he was wasting his time.

    I often wonder about people like him and other Muslims. I believe he is a good man and sincere, yet for the life of me I cannot understand why he remains Muslim. If the actions of Muslims were not enough to convince him to get out, the texts of the Quran and hadith should do it! Go figure.

    He was at a local community meeting defending why he believed the New York 911 (Cordova Initiative) mosque was not a good idea. He said that because non-Muslims were offended by the building, Muslims should find another site.

    Obviously, not offending non-Muslims is not high on the list of priorities for Muslims anywhere. Now draw a stick figure of Mohammad or name a teddy bear after him and Muslims will express outrage and demand respect for this man and their religion. Consider the feelings of the poor teddy.

    A look at Islamic societies shows how little respect Muslim have for others, particularly in religious matters. So, what they sow they reap. I see no need to respect Muslims when it comes to their religion, their Quran, their sadistic torturing god, and their dear and very violent prophet. When Muslims change, I will reconsider.

    Oby, I don’t think there is such a critter as a tolerant Muslim, at least not in a group of more than three. Even the most “tolerant” Islamic societies fail to impress me with their acceptance of Non-Muslims, or even other Muslims.

    On the other hand, it does make sense for people who believe in Islam to treat others poorly. After all, if one believes the Quran then one absolutely knows (and accepts) that those vile non-Muslims dedicate 24 hours a day to hurting, making mischief and planning evil against non-Muslims. That is a major theme in the Quran. Why am I always defending Muslims?

  62. Strangeone…

    Harry actually said it better than I. I am going to post some links that you can read that will better fully explain what I am saying. I have tried to avoid any “sensational” references although I may have missed a few. I am not an expert on references but I have tried to be as Middle of the road as I can.

    I think it is being naive to say that the Saudis are trying to be nice.

    Freedomhouse, an organization founded by Elanor Roosevelt to advance freedom around the world undertook a study after many, including some moderate muslims expressed their concern about Wahabbism infiltrating the USA. It is long but they explain their methodology and how they gathered info from mosques and even the saudi embassy

    Sheik Kabanni, a Lebonese American explains in the body of the report that when he went to a mosque in Jersey City NJ he was shocked to hear a wahabbi doctrine being preached that he had never heard in his native Lebanon. He began to wonder if Wahabbi was active in America so he started research. He says he visited mosque after mosque and everywhere he want he heard this extremely intolerant wahabbi doctrine.

    Strangeone…I grew up in Jersey City. I spent a large portion of my life there…I can tell you FOR SURE there were never any issues between Muslims and nonmuslims. Everyone was friendly…everyone would greet each other and wish each other their “Merry Christmas” or “happy Eid”. We moved away before this wahabiism took hold. I shudder to think how the nice cohesive muticultural mix I grew up in has changed now.

    It is very much worth a read as it explains the importation of Wahabbism in the 70’s early 80’s to now. It goes through the whole development. fascinating. My family left there in 1980 just as it was starting.

    Here is just one quote from one of the pamphlets available at from the King Fahd mosque in Los Angeles:

    “Greetings from the Cultural Department” of the Embassy of Saudi Arabia in Washington, D.C. The book is published by the government of Saudi Arabia. The other books are textbooks from the Saudi Education Ministry, and collections of fatwas, religious edicts, issued by the government’s religious office, published by other organizations based in Riyadh.

    The tracts he opens are in the voice of a senior religious authority. They tell him ( a muslim immigrant)that America, his adoptive home, is the “Abode of the Infidel,” the Christian and the Jew.

    He reads:
    “Be dissociated from the infidels, hate them for their religion, leave them, never rely on them for support, do not admire them, and always oppose them in every way according to Islamic law.”
    The advice is emphatic: “There is consensus on this matter, that whoever helps
    unbelievers against Muslims, regardless of what type of support he lends to them, he is an unbeliever himself.”

    The books give him detailed instructions on how to build a “wall of resentment” between himself and the infidel: Never greet the Christian or Jew first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never befriend an infidel unless it is to convert him. Never imitate the infidel. Never work for an infidel. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel.

    In another book he reads that, if relations between Muslims and non-Muslims were harmonious, there would be “no loyalty and enmity, no more jihad and fighting to raise Allah’s work on earth.”

    Secondly, it has been estimated that some 80% of American mosques are funded or in some way influenced by Saudi Arabia and that most of the mosques have been built in the last 20 or so years.

    So yes, I am concerned about a mosque built with saudi money. I don’t see salafi Islam as a religion…I think it is a political movement disguised as Islam that has far reaching negative consequences not only for non Muslims but Muslims themselves.

  63. @Strangeone – ‘Out of curiosity, what effect(s) do you think preaching “their” version of Islam will have on the community there? What exactly are you against as far as what they might be preaching?’

    he HEM! MY family was torn apart due to their indoctrination of condemnation for the kaffir!

  64. Kasia – I was speaking about Canada and the USA, not the UK.
    Oby – Muslim law regarding wills goes against Canada’s current laws regarding gender discrimination.
    Jay – I never said that our govt’s will not allow Sharia law. What I said was that I hope they will NOT allow Sharia law. One Canadian province almost allowed some parts of it to pass but were stopped by a Muslim group who did not want it to pass. Canada has passed laws regarding cultural issues and caused a huge uproar when they changed our beloved RCMP uniforms to allow turbans for Sikhs. I won’t get into that one and I think the Sikhs look beautiful in their red serge uniforms BUT the RCMP and their uniforms were a Canadian identity and I guess they still are as they really do say Canada is a multi-cultural country. Other debates going on are about the kirpan. I guess my point was that I can’t trust governments to not change laws for religion. Perhaps federally they won’t be changed but it’s possible that states or provinces could allow for some Sharia laws if they chose to and therein lies the danger as far as I am concerned.

  65. Which Sharia Laws do we fear that we could see adopted by our country?

    Death penalties for apostasy or blashphemy? Nope, goes against the freedoms of religion and speech.

    Chopping off a hand for a theft? Nope

    Unequal Inheritance? Wills are legal and binding and people can will their things any which way they wish. Including leaving everything they own to a beloved pet!

    So what is left?

  66. “I guess my point was that I can’t trust governments to not change laws for religion.”

    Wendy, my concern exactly!

  67. WENDY: Perhaps federally they won’t be changed but it’s possible that states or provinces could allow for some Sharia laws if they chose to and therein lies the danger as far as I am concerned

    Yup, that’s exactly the strategy of islamists and their apologists. State by State. Province by Province.
    Drip Drip Drip. Creep Creep Creep.

    Also, in islamic countries sharia nightmare must end. Sharia oppresses the citizens of Islamic countries. Islam must reform, but the legal hierarchy in Islamic nations will not do this because the judges and legal scholars understand the cost: many passages in the Quran and the hadith must be rejected, and this they cannot do. After all, the Quran came down directly from Allah through Gabriel, so says traditional theology. So how can Islam reform? But reform it must. It can start by rewriting classical fiqh (interpretations of law). Again, though, that would mean leaving behind the Quran and Muhammad’s example. How can the legal hierarchy in Islamic nations do this?

    In contrast, the West has undergone the Enlightenment or the Age of Reason (c. 1600—1800+), so western law has been injected with a heavy dose of reason. Also, the New Testament tempers excessive punishments. At least when Christianity reformed (c. 1400—1600), the reformers went back to the New Testament, which preaches peace and love. So religion and reason in the West permit justice to be found more readily—the Medieval Church is not foundational to Christianity; only Jesus and the New Testament are.

    Can Islamic countries benefit from an Enlightenment that may deny the Quran and the hadith? This seems impossible. Islamic law threatens Muslims with death if they criticize Muhammad and the Quran, not to mention denying them.

    Since Islamic law cannot be reformed without doing serious damage to original and authentic Islam—the one taught by Muhammad—then a second plan must be played out. Sharia must never spread around the world, as it is doing now …. via drip drip drip creep creep creep …. in the US and the west. At least that much is clear and achievable. The hard evidence demonstrates beyond doubt that sharia does not benefit any society, for it contains too many harsh rules and punishments.

    Here are the top ten reasons why sharia or Islamic law is bad for all societies.

    10. Islam commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped.

    9. Islam allows husbands to hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives.

    8. Islam allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge—physical eye for physical eye.

    7. Islam commands that a male and female thief must have a hand cut off.

    6. Islam commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated.

    5. Islam commands that homosexuals must be executed.

    4. Islam orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death.

    3. Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non—Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself

    2. Islam orders apostates to be killed.

    1. Islam commands offensive and aggressive and unjust jihad.

  68. Islam also says Muslims should never go to war with other Muslims…that one was thrown out soon as the prophet died…and the state of the Islamic world today shows very well that Muslims are quite happy to slaughter other Muslims. So much for that.

    I know this will not be taken well but I believe and have seen first hand that Muslims will argue until blue in the face about what the Quran does or doesnt say…Islamic countries will chop, behead, riot and slaughter based on what they believe the Quran does or doesnt say…but here is the catch AND it is a major one people… Islamic govts only expect everyone else to follow Islamic law (as interpreted by them but not followed by them) and individual Muslims tend to shrug off the practice of ALL other Muslims and just make Islamic practice all about how THEY practice it personally and ignore all other evidence of extremism.

    That IS Islam (as spouted by those in charge)
    And that is NOT Islam (as spouted by individuals)

    What we are left with are all those in the middle who are too ignorant to know the hypocrisy of the first group and too hateful towards the second group to let them live in peace. Hence, riots, murders, chaos in the Islamic world.

    The whole Live and Let Live mentality will never ever be allowed to take hold in the Islamic world…and because of that it will burn itself into the ground simply because extremist Muslim countries are going to simply kill each other out of existence at the rate they are going…and individual Muslims will practice less and less the outward modes of Islamic practice and eventually keep it to a more internal spiritual practice.

    Anyhow, that is my crystal ball into the future.

    And before anyone jumps on here and says I hate Arabs and Muslims AGAIN….I actually dont…but I would guess and say nobody hates Arabs and Muslims as much as they seemingly hate each other..if actions are anything to judge by.

  69. And that is why I do NOT like or endorse ANY organized religion. I am a very good person and I do not need a book or a person to tell me how to act. I think most humans are inherently good and unless they are mentally unbalanced will follow the 10 commandments or whatever else you might call them without having to be told to do so or taught how to do so. If people choose to pray then can do so without a church, mosque, temple, minister, priest, imam or whoever/whatever to make it happen or … even more importantly … to make it valid. There has been more harm done in the world to people since the inception of organized religions without a doubt.

  70. About sharia in England. England is not based on a secular basis. It is an Anglican christian country, headed by a king/queen who is also head of the Anglican church. As such England has allowed Jewish people to a small degree of self governing in Jewish legal matters in family law.
    Now when the Muslims started to ask for the same allowance they couldn’t really refuse that so they (silently) allowed it. Therefore there are now Sharia courts ruling on family matters in the UK.
    Now people can choose if they go to a sharia court or regular court in these family conflicts but we all know how free anybody, and especially women, are in an Islamic environment.

    It is a pity the US, which is a country on a stricktly secular basis has allowed fundamentalist Christians to make some unconstitutional changes, like the ridiculous ;”one nation under God” ”In god we trsut” on the coins, to be added here and there. The founding fathers, who were atheists will be turning in their graves.
    To let religion worm it’s way in weakens America, but it is still completely unconstitutional to allow religion into government. It is also not constitutional not to allow Americans to build a cultural/religious center.

    So if one is worried (quite rightly) about religious centers, they should be monitored, their books should be scrutinized, and no books which are inciting to violence and discrimination should be allowed, their funding should be audited, etc.
    And the US should stop allowing tax-exemptions for religions. They all should pay taxes, and be audited by outside officials.

  71. that should have been: ”The founding fathers, who were atheists or deists”

  72. @Oby

    LOOOOOOOOOL!!! Sorry for my late response. But yeah in AZ they are selling under ground condos for 2012 and I was just wow…people will fear anything.

    It’s so stupid to fear Muslims. Fear crazy people, sure, but crazy comes in all shapes and colors, that’s for damn sure.

  73. “It’s so stupid to fear Muslims.”

    Agreed. Fear should never be a part of this. The US is the strongest country in the world, with the best constitution. The only reason radicals turn to terrorism is because they are weak. They cannot produce strong weapons and/or resources to combat the ideals of freedoms and liberty guaranteed by our constitution. Same goes for other religions, who are also losing the ideological argument against the rational results of applying the US constitution.

    What we need is not fear. We need rational response for bad ideologies. We should support the protection of Muslims to build their Mosques in the same way we protect the right to build churches and temples otherwise we risk being hypocrites in our support of freedom of religion and thought. However, we should never stop educating and winning the debate against ideologies which contradict the ideals of freedom and liberty.

  74. Tiffany…

    Underground condos?? Good heavens…what next?

    I was wondering why you, who I know is a Muslim but shia (iranian) I think, thinks that we should not worry about the possibility of the effects of wahabbism.

    I ask you because you seem moderate, educated and quite mainstream. So this extremist form of islam would affect you too. One of my daughters best friends is Iranian. Her mother and father must have come here in the 70’s as they are very mainstream. They have integrated beautifully, no signs of islam in terms of cultural dress which to me makes sense since they are Americans even though they were born in Iran. Very much American. In their home they have what appears to be some arabic plaques…which I assume to be something of a religious nature, The mom talks with me and treats me as normal…not as if I am kuffar and she would need to avoid me. It is a very easy and relaxed relationship. I was thinking what if her daughter, who gets along with my daughter like a house on fire were exposed to this salafi islam or a fundamentalist islam and were to be persuaded that she needed to cover head to foot, not talk to my daughter anymore and distrust her as the pamphlet from the mosque says she should and the mother felt that she would be tainted by our infidel ways…what would have changed? absolutely nothing EXCEPT their interpretation of Islam. It would come between the two girls and the mother and I. Just thinking about that loss of a friend made me sad…and this is what I think is happening all over the USA. People are slowly being indoctrinated from a more moderate form of islam to one where they have to form a “wall” between us and them and it is changing interactions between people. It is creating distrust and divisiveness. They are being preached this hateful stuff that I shared from the mosque in LA.

    BTW…if you don’t want to answer PLEASE don’t worry. I just wanted to get your perspective since it would be you who would also be affected by fundamentalist Islam too.

  75. Tiffany, it is not a matter of fear nor is it about ‘crazy’ people.

    We are talking about dislike and opposition rather than fear. We are also talking about a people that follow a religion that teaches hate and violence. I assume you have read the Quran but if you want verses, let me know. We are talking about a people that follow a man that attacked his neighbors and did some very horrible deeds. Worse yet, there is a religion that says he is a great moral example, one to follow. Even so, it is not fear, but dislike.

    Now tell me, Tiffany, is it irrational to dislike people that follow that religion and man? Given the state of the Islamic world and its meager record with human rights and respect for others, is it wrong to oppose that religion and not want Muslims next door?

    Oby, but on the other hand, as you have noticed, Muslims have no ability for self-reflection. The evils they do and the vile things in their dogma mean nothing to them. As you notice, Tiffany says “It’s so stupid to fear Muslims” as if all the things that Muslims do and all the evil “kill and be killed” commands in the Quran aren’t there. To Muslims, the problem is always the others, never them or Islam. It is almost like the Night of the Living Dead or Zombietime. Go figure.

    Tiffany, I am fascinated by the way Muslims think, or not. To me, their understanding of the world is quite different from mine. Maybe that explains our differences. I am sure that Oby is right about you – that you are moderate, educated and quite mainstream – would you mind answering some simple questions for me? Can I give you a list of 5-6 questions?

    As to underground condos in AZ for 2012, I doubt it. Maybe a few old bomb shelters and energy-efficiency experiments, but no significant “end of the world” stuff – they are all in Idaho.

  76. First of all, thank you to everyone who gave their perspective about what effects it could have on society.

    Although to me it’s not a big deal, I also agree with you that “In God We Trust” really has no place on the US dollar and “one nation under God” really has no place in the pledge of the allegiance (which BTW, was added in the 1950s, I believe?).

    @Jay Katcuz,
    “Why do you always ignore the reality of Muslim societies? You act as if Muslims have nothing to do with Islam. You don’t see how “Salafi-style Islam” “harms the community”?”

    First of all, we were talking about Islam in the US. I was not sure how Salafi style Islam could hurt the community as a whole considering US law and everything, and was curious as to what experience others have had with this and what their perspectives were. I personally have had more experience with extremist Christians than extremist Muslims.

    Most of the Muslims I have met so far have been more moderate in their beliefs and tolerant and/or accepting of other beliefs. However, most of them have been more highly educated and more well-traveled so this might have something to do with it. I don’t know. Most of the British Muslims I met would definitely be considered as more moderate and open-minded.

    “Let me ask you the same question I asked Ali – will you condemn your prophets unprovoked attacks on innocent non-Muslims? That is the bottom line for a Muslim.”

    First of all, I’m NOT Muslim as I have already said. Therefore, how could they be “my prophets”?! I am against people causing unnecessary harm to others. If a country is protecting themselves in times of war, then I see it as a necessary evil. War and violence are to be avoided whenever possible. That said, if someone did try to harm me physically, I would protect myself as best I could.

    I really am sorry about your whole situation. I have seen religious extremism in the form of Christianity pull a family apart, too (though later, everything turned out okay). No matter what religion causes it, it really sucks! I really hope things are getting better for you.

  77. Sorry for the name change. That was accidental. I haven’t used this browser in a while, but the above comment is mine.

  78. The above comment was mine. Sorry for any confusion!

  79. Strange One, yes that was added in the 50s, the trouble is that some people now use it as ”proof” that America is a Christian nation. Actually these additions, and things like praying in schools, teaching creationism etc. are unconstitutional.
    I think the American constitution is the best in the world and religious people should not be allowed to whittle away at it.
    What is funny is that those who do like to whittle away at it never realize that they are not the only religion. If you want to teach the Christian creation myths at schools, then you should also teach the hindu creation myth, etc.

    I think religion does have a place at scholls, I think all curriculums should have a religion class in which students are taught about all religions, how they started with an understanding of the concept and fear of death, (the Neanderthals had burial rituals) how they evolved, how gods were made up, how some Egyptians invented the concept of monotheism, how later the monotheistic patriarchal religions eradicated especially the female gods and the great goddess, and how that ended up for women’s rights and well-being can be seen today! How aggressive the religions of Vhristianity and Islam and how they conquered, slaughtered, and forced new people to adhere to their idea of religion (this is really a fairly recent development into human religion myths) and how many people nowadays are searching for something which fits them, instead of blindly following what their parents taught them, and how since a few centuries more and more people have come to the conclusion that there is not proof for gods or god and how more and more people leave fear of death an imaginary, irate, non-responsive, invisible ”friend” behind and become non-theists.

    They should teach children facts in schools. And in private anybody can believe or build, anything they want.

  80. Oby,

    Thank you so much for sharing the report on SAUDI PUBLICATIONS ON HATE IDEOLOGY INVADE AMERICAN MOSQUES, published by the Freedomhouse Foundation.

    I was livid after reading the entire report. Why in the US, or for that matter anywhere, such islamic schools which preach hate are allowed to operate.
    I have to check more into it but one would think that all private parochial or non-parochial schools … their curriculum, textbooks etc) … have to be approved by a state’s dept of education???

    Of course, these saudi/wahabbi schools would show the state regulators their version of koran and hadees to convince them that it is part of their teachings. I don’t care which religion it is, it should not be allowed to teach, as part of the school curriculum, that non-believers are apes and monkeys and pigs and that one should always be in perpetual state of armed jihad.

    I am so upset that I have decided to visit an islamic school in my area next week inshallah, posing as an american muslim revert, looking for an islamic school for my grandkid. I would like to take a tour and make notes, see their curriculum, see their textbooks, see whether their students do a US flag salute, recite the pledge of allegiance etc. etc. etc. etc. I will make a report here next week inshallah …

  81. I believe Muslims who do come to the United States are usually different culturally than back in their home country. I typically see more openness, respect, enjoyment of opportunities. All good reasons for Muslims/Non-Muslims to interact while in the US together. Blended neighborhoods can be great!

    Best Regards, Carol

  82. Harry…

    You are welcome…Yes it is not only majorly eye opening it is very disturbing. And though others might not agree with me I feel very betrayed that the government has not done something about this. I understand fully that they don’t want to mix religion and gov’t. but I think IMO there is more at stake here.

    If this was the KKK and they were building massive meeting halls all over the country and trying to stick a meeting hall in every town and disseminate hateful information calling it every americans duty to actively live their life by such hate at the level of the Saudi infiltration, it would be hard for me to imagine that the gov’t wouldn’t step in to stop the active fomenting of hatred against blacks, Jews and just about every one else. As it is thankfully, the KKK is very much marginalized in the USA and because of it’s history and hate rhetoric I think Americans themselves keep it relatively small. They have no fear of condemning it or questioning their ideologies or calling them racists,bigots or down right crazy! they would stand toe to toe with them at a rally and tell them exactly what they think of the KKK.

    But how is that different from the hateful stuff coming out of Saudi that has a MUCH wider audience and IMO more far reaching consequences? What makes it so maddening is that it is labeled “religion” and so the government dare not tread there and people are reluctant to criticize it for fear of being labeled an islamophobe. God Forbid! And the hateful garbage that the average American would never accept from the KKK is accepted because it is “Islam”. (if the american people even know about it…I think many would be shocked to learn it.)

    When a mosque or imam talks about America as a land of infidels which every muslim should be wary of or even fear how can we expect muslims to fit in?…on one hand they don’t want to be disloyal to their faith and on the other, according to this vile stuff they hear, they live in a world where the enemy lurks around every corner and is ready to defile you at a moments notice. I don’t know about anyone else but it seems to me that is a lovely breeding ground for paranoia and distrust at a minimum….so what do you do? If I were Muslim and I believed that crap I would close ranks with my Muslim brethren and look inward to the group for protection, a sense of community, a sense of belonging (at least you are not thrown to the Western wolves alone), I would be suspicious and fearful and very likely NEVER feel like I could ever fit in… it is a travesty done to both Muslims and non Muslims. It is wrong and IMO it is done with the objective in mind to purposely drive a wedge between Muslims and non…As the sheik said, people came to America with good intentions. I don’t know as I am not a part of the community, but let’s say the sheik is right. Can you imagine, here you are in a new land, may not speak the language, don’t know anyone, look different and sound different than most folks so already you feel a bit self conscious perhaps. Your clothes are different,EVERYTHING is odd to you. so you seek out others like you…fair enough. You have come with no bad intentions on your heart and you want to practice your faith in the community so you attend a local mosque. Might be the only one around so you don’t have a choice really of going elsewhere if you don’t like the message. and what if it gives out info or preaches stuff like this? You tell yourself that you won’t believe that…this isn’t how you think…you are just here to have some community with others and show Allah respect…but week after week after week you hear this s**t at Friday sermon (or whatever it is called). Before you realize it it has seeped into your psyche and consciousness. Those around you reinforce it and unless you want to be the odd man out you don’t say anything. Fear of being different is very real I think especially in the Muslim world. So over and over mosque after mosque…this dynamic is being set up and reinforced and it puts people at odds with the communities they live in.

    No one wants the KKK living and preaching in their backyard…I think the average person would agree with that…but slap the label of religion on it and all of a sudden it is hands off and no one can even talk about how uncomfortable it makes them feel to have that in their backyard.

    And fundamentalists of any kind are a damn dangerous thing. I agree with Aafke about teaching creationism. It is not only embarrassing it makes the USA IMO look like a bunch of uneducated boobs. Believe in God if one wants, but for crying out loud don’t be stupid about it. And the mental gymnastics it takes to deny evolution to me is mind boggling. With radio carbon dating and proof that life lived hundreds of millions of years ago it is hard for me to imagine that people can ignore all of that in favor of creationism. Just like the mental gymnastics anyone has to do for religion to a higher or lesser degree.

    I have less of an issue with the money as the vast majority of the country believes in some God (yes I know without solid proof) and to me it is fairly representative of the majority belief in a deity of some sort…if it said in “Jesus we trust” then I think we could say it represents Christians only but thankfully it says God which can cover just about everyones favorite higher power including Christians.

    I know this is really long but I wanted to share one thing. I think it is only fair…Last night there was a program on the Independent Fundamental Baptist church. Oh my goodness! Different religion, same craziness…although the one difference I did note is that the Baptist church seems to be more focused inward on the group rather than living on the hate rhetoric for everyone else.

    But the same:

    Women gets raped and the victim gets blamed.

    Don’t question the church teachings, or pastor…just blindly follow


    I am going to put links in two posts so it doesn’t get bounced to moderation (I hope).

    Here is the program in it’s entirety. There are some commercials but not bad and a very interesting program.

    Please note that for me anyway the bright spot were several facts. One, somewhere along the line some of these people woke up and a lightbulb went off and they took action to try to expose this.

    Secondly, the law was able to be used to label some of the male abusers as sex offenders so punishment of sorts.

    Thirdly, the women had the power of the legal system behind them to seek justice for their abuse.

    Fourthly, some of these people actually use their reasoning brain to look around them and say “hey something is not right here” and they take the blame for being clueless on themselves and therefore personal responsibility. They take action and leave and some even speak out. I am not sure that this component is present or even possible in Salafi Islam which says to me it is a tougher problem to tackle.

    fundamentalism looks so darn similar in its hallmarks regardless of religion. The one difference I see between this Fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism is that the ones from the Baptist church are all Americans and DON”T have an anti american mentality or agenda… they see the rest of us as heathen probably, but they are very pro american so in that way I don’t see them as a potential problem. I think in the Islamic version, they are taught that the west is bad, evil, out to get them etc so they might feel they can never be true Americans and that MAY lead to some issues, from inability to integrate to home grown jihadis. Although the Baptists are despicable in their own way, I don’t see that particular issue (anti Americanism that can manifest in greater issues) being a big problem.

  83. Here is the “about me” page of a former member of an IFB church. Maybe it was just me but I found so many striking similarities between this and Islamic fundamentalism.

  84. And the other thing I wanted to say is that here on ABC we have a program on a religion though it is Christian..and they are very openly laying out all the nasty bits. They are investigating and talking about it as they should IMO. No one has any qualms splashing this all over the TV.

    But why won’t we ever see anything on TV about all the hate rhetoric and awful things/attitudes that happen within wahabbism? If we can talk about the Baptist issue why not the Muslim? Why are Muslim dirty bits off limits? Like I said God forbid anyone be accused of being an islamophobe. No one is worried about showing the terrible side of some christians. Why?

    I think it is because Christians in the country will not kill, riot or accuse ABC of trying to destroy the Christian faith or being a Christianphobe…(OK I made that name up), but if we dare breathe anything negative and in this case absolutely justifiably negative about Islam or some practices of some sects of Islam(preaching hate)…then OMG! we hate Muslims.

    That is wrong…we should be able to shine a light on bad practices no matter which religion it is. But people are almost muzzled when it comes to Islam…and these hate mongers who preach this garbage to Muslims depend on that intimidation not to say anything about it. That has got to change.

  85. Oby, I hear ya. Also, there was a school shooting in Brazil the other day, one report made it seem as though the gunman was a Muslim convert and now we don’t hear anything at all. If the ‘Western Media’ was just looking for anything against Muslims and Islam wouldn’t they have this story all over the place?

  86. Just wanted to share this video, it should be on the thread where we had ”Jessica” telling us how all non-believers should be forced to wear hijab and not drink alcohol and eat pork and how that would be so good for us even if we didn’t know it. But I can’t remember which thread that was.

  87. If this was the KKK and they were building massive meeting halls all over the country and trying to stick a meeting hall in every town and disseminate hateful information calling it every americans duty to actively live their life by such hate at the level of the Saudi infiltration, it would be hard for me to imagine that the gov’t wouldn’t step in to stop the active fomenting of hatred against blacks, Jews and just about every one else … That is wrong…we should be able to shine a light on bad practices no matter which religion it is. But people are almost muzzled when it comes to Islam…and these hate mongers who preach this garbage to Muslims depend on that intimidation not to say anything about it. That has got to change.

    Another excellent post with deep thoughts! After reading your post and after deep reflection, I have decided to write/email to my entire congressional delegation and major national newspapers a copy of the SAUDI PUBLICATIONS ON HATE IDEOLOGY INVADE AMERICAN MOSQUES report, published by the Freedomhouse Foundation; requesting them to “do something”. This sh** gotta stop!

    I am seriously beginning to question whether this islam is really a religion or is it truly a cult. For example, once again a mere flicker — in this case burning a copy of the Koran in Florida — has ignited the inferno of deeply seated infidel-hatred that pervades the contemporary Muslim world, precipitating violence, death, beheadings, and general mayhem amongst our Afghan ” allies.”

    This eruption was hardly pastor Terry Jones’ fault. The insane orgy of murderous Muslim violence in Afghanistan was a direct result of Islamic doctrine. Jones’ simple non-violent act (he was simply exercising his first amendment rights) effectively administered a diagnostic societal stress test revealing — yet again — the pathological mindset engendered by an Islam that remains ossified in its Medieval fortress, defiantly unreformed and unrepentant.

    Initial reference to Islam as a totalitarian system, specifically (Burckhardt used the most comparable 19th century term “despotism”), was made in 1937 by Charles R. Watson, the Cairo-born first head of the American University at Cairo. Watson noted:

    “In the case of the Mohammedan world, religion has seemingly affected every detail of life with its prescriptions and requirements…[N]o other religion, as it conquered new territory, has so completely and quickly wiped out even the culture of the conquered people and imposed upon their total life new ways and customs, often a new language, as has the Mohammedan religion.”

    Islam can truly be described as totalitarian political system masquerading as a religion. By a million roots, penetrating every phase of life, all of them with religious significance, it is able to maintain its hold upon the life of the Muslim peoples.

    Not too long ago, I read a book by Rebecca Bynum titled Allah is Dead, where she argues why Islam is not a religion. Her concern is that by classifying Islam as a religion and giving it the tax exempt status, we are unwittingly supporting a belief system that aims to destroy us.

    Bynum says it is much closer to ideologies such as material determinism, nihilism and even social Darwinism than it is to either Christianity or Judaism. In fact there are many similarities between Islam and Nazism and Marxism. All these three ideologies are totalitarian and believe ends justify the means.

    There is however, one thing that all religions share and that is the Golden Rule. Virtually all religions, no matter how diverse they are, have at their core the belief that one should treat others as one wishes to be treated. This Golden Rule is absent in Islam. In this sense Islam can be compared to KKK, Nazism and other racist supremacist groups. We can ban Islam because of this. If KKK can be banned why can’t Islam be banned?

    The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments is from Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups by Janja Lalick, Ph.D. and Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.

    *The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

    *Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

    *Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

    *The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

    *The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

    *The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

    *The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

    *The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

    *The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

    *Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

    *The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

    ‪*The group is preoccupied with making money.

    *Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

    *Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

    *The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

    Now, click on the link below where “islam” is evaluated against the “characterists of a cult”. You be the judge:

  88. I don’t even have t click on the link. Ever since I started to learn and experience Islam I have said it was more like a cult than a religion.

    I was extremely disappointed to read in my husband’s Friday mosque paper a rather large article about the Jone’s Koran burning and the USA and after going around in circles and explaining that the US has complete freedom of religion. Having made that statement the author went on to say that the US government will not punish Jones but they should be punished and they (the US gov’t) and everybody else must realize that you can’t make insults such as Koran burning and not expect a backlash. I want to write a letter tp to the editor about this asking only one simple question. Why does the action of one person cause other who have absolutely nothing to do with the act to be murdered? I probably won’t write the letter because they can’t be done anon and I don’t want to involve my husband in any way.

  89. Wendy, You don’t want to involve your husband? He IS involved, that article was directed at him. But I agree that YOU shouldn’t write that letter but your husband should! LOL If I were you I could see me over my husbands shoulder telling him what to write until I finally say ‘move over’ and then I write it and make him sign it. LOL

  90. Give us the article and the contact info for the writer and WE’LL write him!

  91. Ditto!

  92. Wendy…

    Let them have a reaction…they can say what they like…peacefully. In America they can protest and say they don’t like it..peacefully. By peaceful I mean no killing or destruction of property that you don’t own, etc.

    I keep asking myself the question, what will happen when Jones gets killed by Muslims and people who become outraged that he was killed for free speech start to burn Korans as a sign of solidarity with Jones and a show of defiance against intimidation and threats (and you know that there will be people who do that…at least I feel sure of it).Are Muslims going to go after everyone? will Afghanistan burst into flames? will they kill people who are entirely innocent of the act? Crazy.

    Karzai, the opportunistic SOB, is the one who let the Afghanis know about it two weeks after it happened. Had he kept his big mouth shut it would have died a quick death and been relegated to the pile of “dumb ignorant acts done in the name of religion”.

  93. I found Habib Siddiqui’s article on line in another newspaper. Our local one obviously re-printed it. Regardless of how it is put it is NEVER okay to kill innocent people and especially because of the act of one.

  94. @Wendy, thank you for sharing the article by this idiotic Habib Siddiqi. I gave him my feeedback and peace of mind via the feedback form. Like Oby said, one has the right to protest peacefully but it does not mean killing and beheading and maiming innocent men and women and children.


    In a related development just yesterday in UK, two candidates for Welsh assembly were arrested for burning Qur’an. The central question is: Would they have been arrested for burning a Bible? A Bhagavad-Gita? A Torah? A Talmud? The Analects of Confucius? The Tao Te Ching?

    Why not? Absurdities lie on either end of the spectrum of enforcement: either admit there is a double standard and the Qur’an is protected unlike any other book, or exhaust resources protecting all religions’ holy writ from physical desecration, from the most ornate King James Bible to a paperback copy of Dianetics.

    Or, simply respect the right to free speech, which is hollow when the possibility of causing offense is ruled out, and all the more so when only one group is protected above all others.


    As I mentioned in one my previous posts that I recently read Allah is Dead: Why Islam is Not a Religion, by Rebecca Bynum, here are a few excerpts from a self-review that she did:

    *There is no question, of course, that Muslims themselves believe Islam to be a religion. And there is equally no question that Islam harnesses the religious impulse. But it can be argued that communism and Nazism likewise harnessed the religious impulse and that millions of people believed in those ideologies with full religious fervor and devotion. The fact of faith alone does not confer the status of religion on an ideology.

    *When proponents of unlimited mosque construction, for example, cite freedom of religion as their rallying cry, they are forgetting that individual liberty must be balanced by consideration for the welfare of society as a whole.

    *The Constitution protects freedom of religion within certain bounds, but to date there has been no Constitutional definition of what actually constitutes a religion for this purpose. The Founders clearly meant to define religion in a Judeo-Christian context and America has limited religious practices in the past.

    *An important precedent was set when Utah was threatened with invasion and federal occupation unless the Mormons living there changed their religious practice of polygamy. Because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints had a living prophet who could alter the religious tenets of the Church, essentially assigning polygamy to the afterlife, this change was made possible and Utah entered the Union after polygamy was officially banned in the territory. The Mormon Church now has protection under the religious liberty clause, but it did not while the church sanctioned and its members practiced polygamy.

    *A brochure distributed by the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, Tennessee, extols the supremacy of polygamy throughout, offering it as a superior lifestyle choice, but nowhere does it even mention that polygamy is illegal in America. It openly advocates breaking the law.

    *Concerning the definition of religion for First Amendment purposes, many factors need to be taken into account and compared with the Judeo-Christian religious tradition for which the First Amendment was intended. Religion as we have known it has been good for society. It has nurtured morality, strengthened the family, fostered public service and encouraged social harmony. Islam, on the other hand, is self-segregating, fosters ideas of Muslim supremacy and thereby sows seeds of social discord. Even its tradition of charitable giving is solely for the benefit of fellow Muslims and it utterly destroys the family through its adoption of polygamy.

    *In addition, Islam is the only religion that requires territorial sovereignty – its laws are laws of the land rather than laws of the heart as we are accustomed to finding in religion. In the Western tradition, legality and morality are two different things. In Islam, they are one and the same. And as Muslims press for their laws to become laws of the land, especially by suppressing criticism of Islam, the clash between these two systems of thought will intensify.

    *In fact, I believe Islam to be the duck-billed platypus of belief systems, not all one thing and not all another. It is a combination of religion and politics and one part cannot be separated from the other. That is why Islam cannot remain in the religion category. It must be recognized for what it is.

    To read the entire self-review, please click below:

  95. @Wendy, thank you for sharing the article by this idiotic Habib Siddiqi. I gave him my feeedback and peace of mind via the feedback form.

    Among many of his stupendous and outlandish statements, what ticked me off the most was this stupid statement:

    And who can forget the post-9/11 backlash in the USA — the steady stream of more than 800 cases of violence and discrimination suffered by American Muslims at the hands of know-nothing abusers?

    Nothing can be farther from the truth. It only exists and is a figment of imagination in the minds of council on american islamic relations or CAIR and other Muslim Brotherhood sponsored/ fronts organizations. Of course, let’s not forget that there is an ever-growing muslim victimhood industry in america!! Maybe in Canada too??

    Even in 2001 when religious bias crimes against Muslims increased briefly for a nine-week period, total anti-Muslim incidents, offenses and victims remained approximately half of the corresponding anti-Jewish totals. From 2000 through 2009, for every one hate crime incident against a Muslim, there were six hate crime incidents against Jewish victims (1,580 Muslim incidents versus 9,692 Jewish incidents).

    I vividly remember that shortly after 9/11, due to understandable anger and angst amongst the general american populace, lots of members of various faiths, atheists, agnostics, etc. formed security cordons around mosques, in cities and towns across america, to prevent damage to muslim properties, etc.

    On March 29, 2011, The Center for Security Policy released a revised edition of their groundbreaking longitudinal study, Religious Bias Crimes 2000-2009: Muslim, Jewish and Christian Victims — Debunking the Myth of a Growing Trend in Muslim Victimization. It is based on annual FBI statistics and contradicts the assertions that religious bias crimes against Muslims have increased in America and that the alleged cause is widespread “Islamophobia.”

    In fact, the study shows that religious bias crimes — also known as hate crimes — against Muslim Americans, have remained relatively low with a downward trend since 2001, and are significantly less than the numbers of bias crimes against Jewish victims. According to the Center’s analysis, in 2009, Jewish victims of hate crimes outnumbered Muslim victims by more than 8 to 1 (1,132 Jewish victims to 132 Muslim victims).

  96. Harry…

    I think it would depend on the laws about freedom of speech in the country. if burning any holy book is illegal and they got caught doing it then it seems all books would be protected.

    But have you ever heard of anyone getting arrested for burning a Bible? Me either.

  97. Which I think proves threats and intimidation work…and we stupid americans were trying to change the world by human rights and the same protections for all. Silly us!

  98. OBY: But have you ever heard of anyone getting arrested for burning a Bible? Me either.>/I>


    I haven’t heard of it either, at least here in the US. I did hear of a case, during the ground zero mosque protests in NYC, where someone burnt a few pages of the koran and was fired by his employer for going against company policy (disrespecting a religion); but was later reinstated after a lengthy grievance procedure.

  99. Carol,
    You state to have eternal life you must love your neighbor. I believe you have that wrong. The law as in the Ten Commandments is not the way to eternal life. The law was put there to show us that we cannot earn our way to heaven. If we break any part of it then we break it all.

    Romans 3:28
    28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

    But Our LORD and savior came to this earth to pay the price for our sins. It is through his death and resurrection that we can have eternal life and not by anything we do
    Romans 3:23-25
    23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,

    . It is not through Mohammad but through Christ that we will live again. I know you have heard this but have chosen Islam over Christianity, sadly. He has given you free will to do so.

  100. I have been working Monitoring and Evaluation officer with ECOM/ASOP that is USAID project in Afghanistan and i am interseted to work in Soudi arabia for the same post or any post else.

  101. LYNN: … Also, there was a school shooting in Brazil the other day, one report made it seem as though the gunman was a Muslim convert and now we don’t hear anything at all. If the ‘Western Media’ was just looking for anything against Muslims and Islam wouldn’t they have this story all over the place?

    Lynn, here’s a news story from a spanish newspaper, regarding the Brazillian school shooter: “Four hours every day I spend reading the Koran”.

    Wellington Menezes de Oliveira murdered twelve children in a school in Realengo, a poor suburb of Rio de Janeiro, last Thursday. Here is more indication that the shooting was jihad-related, rather like the attempted murders that Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar committed in North Carolina after making his own close study of the Koran.

    More on this story. “Manuscritos de atirador mostram fixação por terrorismo,” from Globo dot com, April 10 (thanks to Google Translator):

    One of the shooter’s sisters told the police, in testimony, that Wellington started to go to a mosque in Rio. In his letter, he describes the conflict: “I made mistakes with my family but I changed with the Koran and they do not trust me.”

    Wellington makes reference to what could be a group. He reports that he divides time between prayers and reflections about terrorism. “I’m outside of the group but I pray to God every day with my noon prayer, that is the recognition of God, and the other 5 are the dedication to God and four hours every day I spend reading the Koran. Not the book because it stayed with the group but parts that I’ve copied for myself. And the rest of the time I spend meditating about what I read, and sometimes meditating about September 11th.”

  102. Blooming – thanks for pointing out my choice of words. Loving one’s neighbor does not guarantee eternal life but it is among the ways one must live a Christ-like life towards eternal life.

  103. The Third Jihad, the newest offering from the producers of the captivating documentary film, Obsession, explores the existence of radical Islam in America and the emerging risk that this “homegrown jihad” poses to national security, western liberties and the “American way of life.”

    The film, which is narrated by devout Muslim American Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser, opens with the following statement: “This is not a film about Islam. It is about the threat of radical Islam. Only a small percentage of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims are radical. This film is about them.”

    In 72 minutes, the film reveals that radical Islamists driven by a religiously motivated rejection of western values cultures and religion are engaging in a multifaceted strategy to overcome the western world. In contrast to the use of “violent jihad” and terror to instill fear in “non-believers,” The Third Jihad introduces the concept of “cultural jihad” as a means to infiltrate and undermine our society from within.

  104. Obsession – Radical Islam’s War Against the West

    “This is not a film about Islam. It is about the threat of radical Islam. Only a small percentage of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims are radical. This film is about them.”

    Almost 70 years ago, Europe found itself at war with one of the most sinister figures in modern history: Adolf Hitler. When the last bullet of World War II was fired, over 50 million people were dead, and countless countries were both physically and economically devastated. Hitler’s bloody struggle sought to forge the world anew, in the crucible of Nazi values. How could such a disaster occur? How could the West have overlooked the evil staring it in the face, for so long, before standing forcefully against it?

    Today, we find ourselves confronted by a new enemy, also engaged in a violent struggle to transform our world. As we sleep in the comfort of our homes, a new evil rises against us. A new menace is threatening, with all the means at its disposal, to bow Western Civilization under the yoke of its values. That enemy is Radical Islam.

    Using images from Arab TV, rarely seen in the West, Obsession reveals an ‘insider’s view’ of the hatred the Radicals are teaching, their incitement of global jihad, and their goal of world domination. With the help of experts, including first-hand accounts from a former PLO terrorist, a Nazi youth commander, and the daughter of a martyred guerilla leader, the film shows, clearly, that the threat is real. Islam is being hijacked by radical extremists, who actively seek to destroy the shared values we stand for. The world should be very concerned.

  105. Harry…

    Thanks for the third Jihad video. I had not heard about that but I have heard of Dr Jasser so for me that lends some credibility.

    I don’t know why Muslims themselves would not be alarmed. This would affect them too, not just non Muslims. If most are not extremist as I don’t think they are it should be darn easy to mobilize people to stop this ideology. I mean so many people left oppressive countries to come here for a free life…why would they want it to be repeated here?

    And there is no such thing as the perfect utopian ummah under shariah. If there were we would have seen some evidence of it by now. It is a dream that will never come to fruition even if sharia were spread to every land on earth…human avarice will never allow it to see the light of day. The top will stay in power and the majority will be on the bottom as it is now in many countries. It’s a fool’s dream to think any religion will bring peace and harmony…as long as human beings interpret and “guard” the religions. Never gonna happen. We will war ourselves into extinction.

  106. After all this awful stuff we have read and heard about Salafi Islam I just had to share this article I read by a Saudi preacher and scholar…

    Non Muslims might find the first sentence or two objectionable because among other things he calls the land of arabs the “center of the universe”. Obviously a bit proud of his heritage LOL! But if you get past that read what he is saying to his countryman.

    Or this:

  107. A few more:

    A little tough to swallow but remember he is a person absolutely convinced of Islam’s place as the TRUE religion….but the message is interesting.

    all I can say is that this woman got an UNBELIEVABLE deal through the US gov’t. and now I know where my tax dollars are going. But it is Ohio so yay for us for helping her out. Let’s hope she appreciates it….

    Poor man has his hands full trying to convince Muslims to live peacefully

  108. Oby, I agree with every word in your excellent post!

    Muslims in the US and the west …. Islamists or moderate or mainstream …. always think of Islam first, then their tribe or clan back home second and then their home country of origin third. Islam takes precedence over anything else. Their adopted countries and loyalty to these countries that they have adopted are nowhere on their mental radar.

    With few exceptions (Dr. Zasser for example), an overwhelming majority of muslims think that way. Their kids are indoctrinated that way.

    A poignant example that comes to my mind is that of
    the guy from pakistan (shahzad?) who tried to blow up Times Square last year. At his sentencing, the judge reminded him that he took an oath when he became an american citizen that he will defend and protect the United States against all enemies, domestic and foreign. His response was quite interesting.

    He said that he never considered himself a US citizen in the deep recesses of his heart and mind. That he was exercising taquia or legalized lying as ordained by his prophet when he took the oath to become an american citizen, and to do jihad against the kafir state of america and other kafir states, on behalf of the muslim ummah. If you look at all muslim terrorists and wannabe muslim terrorists in the US and the West, the thinking is exactly the same.

    May Allah swt help us and our country!

  109. Oby,

    Thank you so much for all these wondeful links. I like this guy, Dr. Aaidh al-Qarni.

    I have bookmarked the Daily Asharq and will come back to read his excellent opinion pieces ….

  110. Oby, I read a few of that preacher’s articles yesterday after finding that link on Crossroads Arabia’s blog. I liked the one about why Arabs migrate to the West and also the one about Arab conspiracies that John linked us to. I’m glad you shared some of his articles here.

  111. An interesting article on Al Jazeera this morning regarding the Koran burning reaction.

  112. Thanks susanne…
    The article about the west is a ood one because it points out the dichotomy of the whole sitation. And i think it is a deep shame that one has to leave hundreds of years of heritage behind, ancestral peoperty in some cases, friends, culture and all that is familiar just to have a reasonable life. Thankfully in this mans case it turned out well. But for me the craziness of it comes in when you think that this is not possible in his homeland and he should have a chance to create a legacy or fulfilling life in his own country. I feelsad that people like him don’t have that chance in an islamic land where he is from. My heart is with these young people who want the same things anyone wants and what they come West for. I pray they can create some measure of democracy to fulfill their dreams and the dreams of future generations.

  113. This on the news today … Scotland Yard says it has rejected an application by a radical Islamist group to protest outside Westminster Abbey on royal wedding day.
    The group, Muslims against Crusades, was behind a poppy-burning protest on Armistice Day.
    There are concerns that worse will happen on the wedding day including bombings. Let’s here some moderates speaking up and taking action against this!!!!

  114. “Muslims against Crusades”

    What the hell is that? What Crusades?…the ones 1000 years ago? I think it about time to get over that…let’s also not pretend Muslims haven’t done their fair share of “crusades” in the cause of islam.

  115. A poppy-burning protest on Armistice Day? Why, those bastards!! Off with their HEADS!!

  116. My first art contest win was for Poppy Day on Armistice Day way back in the covered wagon era…ehem…5th grade to you and me. Soft spot for them. How can you hate a flower???

  117. isn’t rememberence day the same — 11th nov.. why on earth are they burning poppies now? and isn’t that more for 1st world war? what has that got to do with islam…

  118. What has protesting and marching at the Royal wedding or blowing up buildings, etc, etc, etc have to do with Islam???

  119. It gets the worlds attention. The thing that struck me is they followed the law and applied for a permit to do it. Were they thinking the british were going to say yes?

  120. Someone needs to get these people jobs!!! An idle mind is devil’s workshop – my mom’s favorite saying… keep them busy especially Mr.Choudary — looks like he doesn’t have much to do.

  121. and choudary is a very bengali name — bangladesh/bengal type origins i’m guessing, nothing to do with afghanistan, so why is he all hot and bothered.

  122. Well, oby, I guess the royal wedding trumps all their ‘Politically Correct’ tolerant bullshit!

  123. Radha, WWI brought down the last Muslim Empire and redrew the borders making all those new colonial ‘Muslim’ countries so perhaps that has something to do with it? Remember, when talking about war with Muslims, it ain’t over till they WIN!

  124. ‘keep them busy especially Mr.Choudary — looks like he doesn’t have much to do.’

    Yeah, Japan is in need of some serious clean up crews, send him there!

  125. Oby, if they had a brain in the first place ………..

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