Misyaar Marriage in Saudi Arabia - What is it and Who would Want It?

143 Responses

Balqis, on June 17, 2008 at 10:00 am said:

As far as I know is just a trick used not to inform the first wife about other marriages and I read is pretty much practised in ksa
Just a personal advice : when you search infos about Islam, don’t go for wikipedia or islamonline.com They’re not reliable
You can chose in this list http://www.sultan.org/ or ask your husband
I assume he’s Muslim, so he should be your best source
delhi4cats, on June 17, 2008 at 10:49 am said:

Balqis,

Thanks for your comment. It sadly seems to be a norm that men elect not to inform a first wife about intent to marry another.
Ali A. Bashiti, on June 17, 2008 at 11:25 am said:

Carol,

to answer your question at the end of your post, I personally as of now, based on everything I’ve heard on the topic, do not feel comfortable in saying it is forbidden… I’m actually leaning towards the argument that it is ok GIVEN that all conditions are met for a nikaah to take place… consent… guardian… etc… but would I recommend it or do it, not my style. It’s important to note that although many of the prominent scholars deemed it permissible, many do not recommend it as it does not allow the bond between husband/wife… children/father to flourish as it would in a traditional marriage.

Allah Knows Best…

Lastly, I would like to commend you for selecting the opinions of scholars WORTHY of mention when discussing such a delicate topic… from the likes of Sheikh Ibn Baaz, Sheikh Ibn Utheimeen, Sheikh Al-Albaani (may Allah have mercy on them all)… and the current Mufti Sheikh Al-Alsheikh (may Allah preserve him)…

-Ali
delhi4cats, on June 17, 2008 at 11:39 am said:

Ali,

This is what I think is confusing…it is not forbidden but does not necessarily come highly recommend and with conditions…thereby leaving “wiggle room” for interpretation. Let me explain further what I mean…there may be those men who will hear that respectable Sheikh’s say it is allowable but these same men will have selective hearing and may “conveniently” close their eyes and ears to the other conditions attached.

I guess I just like things very straight forward and simple…one husband, one wife, partnership for life.
OnigiriFB, on June 17, 2008 at 4:46 pm said:

Coming from someone who is NOT muslim I find this practice disgusting. This is something that enforces the thought that religion is MAN-made not G-d made. For a Christian to hear of this I would think make them think that all muslims believe this as many of them already think that muslims thing woman are just property to be given like a cow. ( I apologize for any offence here.) From my perspective as a Buddhist from a country where polygamy or minor wives are allowed quietly I still find this practice to be one step “above” mistresses and whores. So it makes me wonder what those who condemn the west and the woman who live here as whores, infidels, and unwed mother think about a practice found in Islam. It seems that since no one can agree on WHAT the ahadiths say NO ONE wants to say it’s NOT allowed? That what I got out of the post Carol if I am wrong please let me know. Again I find it amusing, like the mormons, people are quick to say oh you have the wrong info or you went to website that just wasn’t quite kosher. Right. The mormons call it “lying for the Lord”. Do muslims have a phrase that basically means to protray Islam only in a good light? I always wondered why again if its the truth people want to hide it?

Oh well. Good job Carol. I love your controversial post. I like the others too but these make me really sit up and pay attention. Keep up the good work! Again as a woman who hates to see another disrespected this makes my blood boil. *sigh*
delhi4cats, on June 17, 2008 at 5:35 pm said:

Thanks for your comments, OnigiriFB.

When aspects like misyaar marriage come up, it can indeed make one confused about islam and its practices. The Quran is clear, quite clear. And to my knowledge….misyaar as identified is not cited specifically in the Quran. If I am wrong, forgive me in advance but just sharing my basic understanding. So does that mean misyaar is a cultural adaptation with, if practiced as approved by the Sheik’s, with islamic practices and adjustments?
AbuSinan, on June 17, 2008 at 6:00 pm said:

Cultural Adaptation?

In Islam this is known as “bida” and is, in itself, haram. It is the bending of Islam or adding new concepts and ideas into the religion which were not originally there.

This type of marriage is illegal in 99% of the Islamic world and is practiced almost nowhere outside of the Gulf, especially Saudi Arabia.

The fact that this exists and is used so much in a country like Saudi is an indictment in itself. A “marriage” like this can only flourish when aspects of a society are disfunctional.

A marriage like this needs disfunction to work. Instead of allowing such a marriage the scholars should address the disfunction in the society that make such an arrangement needed. Instead allowing it lets the disfunction continue and to even spread.

One can point at “scholars” to support almost anything. It is a crutch that many use to justify what they know is clearly wrong.
Viking Daughter, on June 17, 2008 at 7:18 pm said:

I agree with Abu Sinan, it’s bida’ah and anyone can choose a bida’ah practice when the need suits them, then declare it halal or ”makruh” or find the scholar who allows it. If one searches long enough, one can find a scholar to agree with them, and ignore the major scholars.

Also, the misyar did not exist a few years back, and it is becoming a popular practice in Kuwait as well. Why?

I know of 3 misyar marriages personally. 1 is a divorced woman with custody of her children. He is basically a ”sugar daddy” in American terms, buys her trinkets etc, and it’s secret which cancels the required celebration and public notification of a normal marriage.

Here’s the best part. One man who is married here misyar with a woman, now has 3 children from her. It’s still a ”secret” but it’s funny, since everyone knows everyone and it’s no longer a secret. I’ve seen no mention of the children involved in this.

Thirdly, I’ve now heard of 2 women who hired a laywer to get nafiqua from a misyar marriage! I don’t know the outcome, but this could be a bit embarassing.

Note: Of the 3 I know of, none, absolutely none of these men or women are religious at all, they are just satisfying their own needs and wants in any way possible. They bring a ”shaikh” and 2 witnesses to the home to perform the ”ceremony” so there is a paper.

Why is it always the NON practicing, weak people who shout the loudest on these questionable practices?

Great topic Carol, as it’s becoming quite popular lately!
NoName, on June 17, 2008 at 8:04 pm said:

Misyar marriage is WRONG and if anyone thinks or believes otherwise, then you NEED to really get a grasp on the religion……..”ISLAM”!!! It is nothing more than a simple “man-made” bida’a, crap, prostitution in the name of “halal” or what ever you want to call it!!

One of the things I surely can not wait for is “Judgment Day”. It is only then when every soul on this wretched, evil, disgusting, and deranged world, will finally take their place where they really belong………………

Saudi Arabia is a country with a completely demented and distorted culture. The problem is that they think they are living by “Islamic” Shari’a law but they are NOT. Nothing Islamic about anything when you are following “wahabbism”………………..we ALL NEED to simply follow the QUR’AN and nothing else. People are corrupt………..God’s words are NOT!!!
coolred38, on June 17, 2008 at 8:35 pm said:

From that numbered list one thing shouts out loud and clear about misyar marriage…its a marriage tailore made for a man….sex when he wants it without pesky commitments, maintenance, even housing for his sex partner. The one about allowing his disabled wife to stay at her family home so that he is not burdened with her…really just says it all. Why would a woman want such a marriage…temp or not? Where I grew up its called a relationship with no strings attatched.

Only thing that surprises me is why more men arent out there beating the bushes talking more women into accepting such a union?

The ego of the Muslim man that believes from the blackest part of his heart that God made this earth and all thats on it just for him…never ceases to astound me. (of course that statement excludes those Muslim men that do not believe that…wherever you are)
AbuSinan, on June 17, 2008 at 8:55 pm said:

Coolred,

In the West, if we mixed cultural terms, we’d call Misyaar a “Halal Bootycall” or “Halal friends with privldges”.

The problem is society. Most women who get involved in these situations do so because without them they’d have no other chance for male companionship. If a survey was done you’d find a VERY high rate of divorced or widowed women involved in these because society makes it VERY hard for them to get married again.
delhi4cats, on June 17, 2008 at 9:02 pm said:

My comment at this point is yes, it is practiced in Saudi Arabia and Viking Daughter advised it is practiced in Kuwait too. I also know of misyaar being practiced in Egypt, Lebanon and Morocco as well.
OnigiriFB, on June 18, 2008 at 2:11 am said:

I remember hearing that it was allowed in the prophets time because men went to war without their wives. Therefore a way for men to not sin was to engage a misyaar marriage. Again for me it goes back to man-made and for man. I cannot for the life of me see how a woman truly benefits unless it is monetarily and wants to *cough, blush* get her own rocks off.
Saudi in US, on June 18, 2008 at 3:11 am said:

This was a tough one for me. The easy answer would have been I am against Misyaar marriage, but I could not just simply ignore that it does offer an alternative for some women. Alternatives are part of liberation in my way of thinking. Her are my thoughts:

– Legally: Misyaar contracts fulfill the legal requirements for Saudi. I know we can discuss the ethical issues or the debates between scholars on the topic, but bottom line this form of contract is legal.
– Social Implementation: As I said earlier it provides an option for a woman that does not have the ability to establish companionship through traditional wedding. The problem I have is that Misyaar is almost always a polygamist situation. Again I do not have an issue with Polygamy on itself as I respect the right of others to choose. My issue is polygamy are almost always driven by a man decision and even if the existing wife(s) knew before hand she/they have no options to stop it. So in Summary, it is not Misyaar that I am against, it is polygamy without the knowledge and uncoerced consent of all the parties involved that I consider immoral.
– Fallout issues: I agree that children born in such marriage will have identity issues and lack of fatherly guidance. How about if teh man minimizes the visits to the Misyaar wife, what options would she have. She won’t get the benefits that were the reason for the contract.

Final thought, yes I like creativity, but creative ideas have to be looked in a comprehensive fashion. I would like to see the Saudi Laws updated to develop solutions to the issues above or make such contracts illegal.
Kathryn, on June 18, 2008 at 7:48 am said:

It is a bit creative to come up with solutions like this. To sit back and look at the West, and its perceived loose sexual morals, and say something like “We have to maintain society’s belief that sex outside of marriage is wrong, however, that doesn’t mean that we can’t creatively redefine what marriage means”. Since I have lived in KSA, I have heard of these misyar marriages, which are no different than a married man elsewhere getting some on the side, and the equally hideous holiday marriage where a man can head off to an agreeable destination like Malaysia, marry a little girl for his holiday/business travel time, and then conveniently dispense with her when he returns to the bosom of his family, much like any other married man getting a bit on the side when he’s away on a business trip. In any event, until these societies can show a little insight and admit to themselves that this sort of activity goes on here, just as it does everywhere else in the world, then this sort of creative ‘lying to oneself’ will go on. A mature society will be able to admit to itself that not all of its citizens are perfect, but that hasn’t happened here in the gulf yet. For people here, being born a Saudi seems to equate with being born a muslim, with no apparent freedom to reject what that means and become an atheist, agnostic, buddhist, christian..whatever. There may be some women that this suits, but that doesn’t make it right.
Viking Daughter, on June 18, 2008 at 10:39 am said:

Saudi in US: excellent points on the fallout. I’ve yet to see anyone address the children in these stories, and who supports them since the contract states he does not have to support the misyar wife?

I can’t wait to hear the outcome of the misyar court cases here, they are pending….

Abu Sinan:I choked on my coffee reading your definition of ”misyar.” Starbucks, no less!

Kathryn: Good points, but speaking of the West and loose morals, who said there are no ”affairs” out of marriage in the Middle East? The ”misyar”is just has a unique way of *ahem* making it a proper affair. Ink, paper, implements, a few digits to sign, and voila!
umabdullah, on June 18, 2008 at 2:54 pm said:

Balqis: islamonline.net is a very well known and mainstream Islamic website. And the website on islam that one of the first posters mentioned sultan.org or something? takes the view of only following Quran. That is a very odd and unusual view and not the mainstream view since 1400 years and not the view of the Quran itself.

So if a reader has a problem with a website, perhaps they should state the reason instead of just saying that it is unreliable.
AbuSinan, on June 18, 2008 at 3:50 pm said:

Saudi in US,

You write:

” As I said earlier it provides an option for a woman that does not have the ability to establish companionship through traditional wedding.”

How about changing society so that women, divorced and widowed, dont have to resort to such an arrangement? You’ll not find many virgins/unmarried women who get married Misyaar, it is almost always divorced and widowed women.

Instead of setting up a system where these women get taken advantage of, why not work towards changing society so that divorced and widowed women are not see as damaged/used goods unfit for normal marriage?

I’d love to see a major push by all scholars in Saudi for Saudi men to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet and marry widows and divorced women.

Why does the Sunnah only count when it is inline with the culture and something seen as being fun to do?

In this case these guys would rather head to Morroco or Egypt to marry a young virgin than look next door at the divorcee or widow. Shame!
Saudi in US, on June 18, 2008 at 7:42 pm said:

AbuuSinan,

I would like to see many things change in Saudi. The list is very long.

My comment was my position of the specific question of Misyaar. The fact that a woman can accept and sometimes initiate such a contract is not the problem. It is the issue of polygamy and possible child custody, upbringing and support that I had a problem with.

Actually the way I evaluated it is by thinking what if a woman and a man wanted to get in such a marriage in the US where polygamy is not allowed and a woman has a chance in courts to win child support and custody. My answer was I would not be against it as it gives people choices in a system that offers protections. Also, I am by nature against legislating morality, so even though I do not agree with the arrangement, I am not willing to impose my moral code on others. The problem was not the contractual agreement it was the other issues that exist in Saudi.

Regarding resolving the issue of divorced women and the like. That can be a long discussion, there are social issues that can fill books. Examples: fathers requiring high dowry, tribal and origin prejudices, unemployment, arranged marriages, lack of preparation of young adults, treating women as property, etc. These issues cannot be solved with simple solutions. They require years of education.
AbuSinan, on June 18, 2008 at 9:02 pm said:

Saudi in USA,

If you add child custody, child support and other rights into it then it ceases to be a Misyaar marriage. The whole idea behind such a marriage is that there are little or no strings attached to it. Once you attach those strings then basically it would be no different than a regular marriage contract and, I suspect, would cease to be of interest to most men who would consider them in the first place.

To this isn’t about morality really, it is about social order and the rights of children. Who ends up paying for the children born of such arrangements? Are the effects on the society positive or negative?

As to dowries, I was not aware that divorce women or widowed women normally asked a high dowry. Generally speaking, high dowries tends to be the domain of unmarried women. Even then I believe there is a Saudi law capping dowry prices, although it is regularly ignored.

As to tribal issues, I realise that is an issue, but the women got married within their own tribe the first time, they could do so again if there wasnt such an engrained cultural trend to view divorced and widowed women as used goods.

As you say, it will take years of education, but there will be NO education if things like Misyaar are made up to put a band aid over the problem rather than address it directly. Odd, the Saudi government should be making it EASIER for their widows and divorced women to get married to Saudis and non Saudis alike, yet they make it so hard for anyone outside of the country to marry one of their female citizens. At least they could have two categories for marriage recognition, one for virgins/unmarried women and the other for divorced/widowed women who find it much harder to get married in the Kingdom.

That might sound way out there to Western ears, but it is in keeping with how the culture views things.
Saudi in US, on June 18, 2008 at 9:37 pm said:

AbuSinan,

“If you add child custody, child support and other rights into it then it ceases to be a Misyaar marriage. The whole idea behind such a marriage is that there are little or no strings attached to it.”

Exactly.

I think I had a few failed attempts at explaining how I got the core of the issues I have with this arrangement. I thought my position was clear, but let me make it more short and right to the point.

If a man and a woman as adults decide to get into any contractual arrangement, it is not my business or societies business to get involved. Society gets involved in protecting the rights of others that are not parties to the contract signing. Those include any previous wives and any children that are a result of the agreement. If the contract or laws fail to provide such protections then I am against it and it should be outlawed.
AbuSinan, on June 18, 2008 at 10:05 pm said:

Saudi in the US,

I agree with you on the point if we were talking about a secular society, in Saudi we are not. The masiyaar marriage, as we know it, is unIslamic because it fails to provide safeguards for the women and support for the children.

From an Islamic standpoint I disagree with it. Not 100% from a strictly religious standpoint, but when I look at the arrangement itself and how it interacts with society, I am against it.

It is an arrangement that plays at the weakness of the women in the society. I guess if it was a society where women were not forced into this type of marriage I’d have little problem with it.

What people do is their own business. As long as it doesnt effect me, I dont care. However, in this case I see that women are being exploited, even though they are parties to their own exploitation.

It is hard to blame them. Remain single and without companionship for the rest of your life because you are divorced or widowed or accept a “marriage” where you have no rights.

If Saudi/Middle Eastern culture was a functional and semi-fair society misyaar would not be wanted or needed.
Saudi in US, on June 19, 2008 at 12:34 am said:

“What people do is their own business. As long as it doesn’t effect me, I dont care. However, in this case I see that women are being exploited, even though they are parties to their own exploitation.”

Sorry AbuSinan we do not agree on this. You are falling into the same trap that got us into this mess. Women can be exploited so we have to protect them by making decisions on how they dress and who they mix with. Yes those examples are extreme, but protection of adults to stop them from making bad decisions is a slippery slope. Liberty is about allowing people to make their own decisions.

I respect that a woman knows her own situation better than I would and she can make a decision. Society should only interfere in how that decision impacts others, which I tried to highlight in all my responses.

I think there is a confusion of all the issues in society with this contractual agreement as those issues become visible. Here is a small list: male guardianship, the right of men to have multiple wives without their original wive(s) having a say in the matter, the abandonment of children, custody rights, legal system that is setup in favor of men, legal wife beating and imprisonment etc. Those are the real issues that cause problems. Perhaps you can provide solutions to those in their own context.
Aafke, on June 19, 2008 at 12:59 am said:

I agree with AbuSinan, on everything he said.
The concept of ”misyaar-marriage” or -bootycall is another way of stripping women of their (islamic) rights, undermining the few strands of security left to them, and I see it as an innovation too.
While I see the reasoning behind Saudi in US’s arguments, and aknowledging I don’t really know anything about KSA, when considering the excessive level of rules they like to implement; you’d say they should be the last to endorse such stripping of the marriage-rules as set forth in the Quran and sunna. Aren’t they always going on about how women are jewels? And should be cared for and protected? Where are those sentiments in reality?
And especially in such a country as KSA the implications count much heavier if such a loosely interpreted kind of ”marriage” would be the norm in, say: the Netherlands.

No, I agree it’s an innovation, it’s an insidious way of stripping women of the few basic rights they still posess.

Scholars and Sheiks are just human, and, may I add: ”men”? With their own interest in the matter? And as you can find a fatwa on about anything you can think of, I cannot hold the mere denomination of ”Scholar” or ”Sheik” in high regard. They have eroded their own reliability.
I think it’s much better to think for ones-self.

Yes, you can say: Allah knows best.
I bet Allah is very aware of the men who twist the laws, and follow only the letters of the law, creating loopholes in the law, while ignoring the spirit of the law. And for what? Only for their own carnal pleasures, and to avoid their duties as set forth by the quran, and the example of the prophet.

And from a secular point of view: This kind of marriage, in this kind of society, serves only men.
It degrades women, and will cause scores of fatherless children, without family, support and identity to grow up as even more twisted adults as their parents already were.

I agree adults should be free to choose their own destiny. But that doesn’t count for the gulfstates? Women have no freedom or independance at all to chose their own destiny in anything, whatever!!!
Except signing away their rights?
That is the only freedom they do get? It’s sick, twisted, and totally evil!
Aafke, on June 19, 2008 at 1:03 am said:

Oh, and in the a-moral Nteherlands, a father is always, by law, responsible ot any children he fathered.
At the very least the rules of a mishyaar marriage should entail: the father is financially responsible for any children he sires.
Saudi in US, on June 19, 2008 at 1:11 am said:

“At the very least the rules of a mishyaar marriage should entail: the father is financially responsible for any children he sires.”

Good point. In my original post I said Misyaar is not acceptable if:

– The husband does not take responsibility of the children fathered in the marriage
– Consent of previous wive(s) if they exist.

I am actually not in support of this marriage arrangement, but I have an even bigger issue of supporting stripping people of their decisions based on a protection argument.
American2Saudi, on June 19, 2008 at 4:51 am said:

I think that Misyar marriages are good for women in the following situations:

-career women who don’t really want a husband, just a few ‘booty calls’ each week.

-divorced women who would lose their children if their ex-husband found out, but still need the ‘booty’ : )

-or for women who cannot get married because their father/brothers/uncles won’t allow them to marry for various reasons.

-widowed women who don’t want their children to know about any other men in their lives and want some companionship.

But, people in these types of relationships should see them as a temporary solution and not a ‘until death do we part’ marriage, right? Ahhhh, but isn’t that illegal in our religion?…especially the Sunni’s?…to only be married for a specific time?..isn’t it supposed to be forever? Isn’t it stated that God despises divorce? Anyone know the specifics on this?

But, I think that IF there are children by some accident, THEN the ‘misyar’ should immediately become a full-blown marriage that must be announced to the society in the newspaper with the child getting full rights!!! : ) And wouldn’t that change things a bit!!!

Just my 2 cents.
Khalid, on June 19, 2008 at 8:01 am said:

I’m totally against Misyar marriage. I agree with Saudi in the US’ argument though. my likes and dislikes should not be imposed over others.

Aafki: you cannot call it “marriage when the father is not responsible of his children “. This is forbidden in Islam. One of the rights of the father is to be responsible of the children he sires…

“Scholars and Sheiks are just human, and, may I add: ”men”?”
this is not true. There are many women who have PhD’s in Islamic studies in all fields (fiqh , aqida , tafsir etc.) the women I know in Saudi if they want to ask about something or want a “fatwa” in anything , usually they call a female scholar to obtain the info they want. Aysha “aliha al salaam” was a female, wasn’t she?
AbuSinan, on June 19, 2008 at 3:50 pm said:

Saudi in US,

I understand your points I would support them in a normal functioning society, unfortunately, Saudi is neither.

The society is set up to exploit and mistreat women. It is impossible for them to get a fair shake in that society.

When men have all of the power it is impossible to implement something like misyaar and not have it abused. Besides, if we follow your exclusions then it cease to be a misyaar anyway and then we are talking about a different issue.
delhi4cats, on June 19, 2008 at 5:44 pm said:

Sadly I can easily point a few fingers at couples here in KSA who although they have traditional Islamic marriages, in reality they are living as if it is a misyaar marriage.
Aafke, on June 19, 2008 at 5:55 pm said:

I agree with AbuSinan.

See? even a real marriage doesn’t offer safety enough to protect women from men.
OnigiriFB, on June 19, 2008 at 7:06 pm said:

I think we can all agree that there are way too many problems with misyaar marriages. I think there is also a lot of problems (and a lot of good) in the KSA/Middle-east/Muslim culture. The fact that in 2008 we are talking about a culture/society that keeps a woman in her “place” and forces her to be less than equally human with the brain to decide for herself IMHO makes me sad. You can blame and point fingers all over the place and I am not so sure the US with it’s “sex sells” mentality and porno culture (this is something that has become more and more prominate in the mainstream here) is the final answer either. Part of me wonders what the world was like when woman were priestesses, oracles, and ruled. Another part of me feels that man-made religions (note MAN) deliberately subjugated woman because of those ancient womanly roles. One part of Dan Brown’s book that I liked was that he talked about the sacred feminine. What happened to that? All the talk in the world about woman being diamonds and pearls does not make up for the ill-treatment the face in various cultures/religions. All it is putting a pretty bandage on top of a gaping bleeding deep wound. Now before you all accuse me of being a nazi feminist I want to let you know that I love the role of a stay at home mother. I love being feminine, I love being a woman who can bear children, I love being treated as a lady and the like. I DO NOT love being treated as inferior, “equal” but not quite good enough, “special” but “protected”, and the other crap men and sometime other woman come up with that just means woman aren’t as good as a man because we lack a penis.

The above may be a little off topic and I apologize Carol. These types of explotations against woman make me sad and mad and everything in between. I cannot even fathom thinking of this type of “marriage” as anything good. Do you (any muslims) really think Allah says “oh you signed a paper saying you are misyaar married so sex is ok even though any children have no benefits of a father and it can be desolved in as little as a night” is ok?
iwka, on June 19, 2008 at 7:26 pm said:

I mean, really, seems to me like it is a Muta marriage in non-Shi’a Islamic world. Am I wrong?
AbuSinan, on June 19, 2008 at 7:30 pm said:

I think OnigiriFB has a point.
OnigiriFB, on June 19, 2008 at 7:42 pm said:

What is a muta marriage?
Aafke, on June 19, 2008 at 7:55 pm said:

Yes, what is a muta marriage?

I agree with Onigiri’s earlier post too.
And the current oversexualisation and porn in the media is just another ploy to devaluate women, and twist peoples mind to make them believe women are only in existence to serve men. MTV is a good example; aimed at young people and it allready is having effect: by some psycologists have allready reported that teenagers are convinced that men are ”players” and women are ”hoo’s”

I àm a creepy feminist btw.
Extremely feminine, and totally convinced I’m as good as any man in my own ultra-feminine way.

I am very sure that the modern patriarchal religions have been inundated with female-unfriendly details specifically meant to subjugate women, and to destroy any remembrance of the great goddess, and the power of women.
AbuSinan, on June 19, 2008 at 7:59 pm said:

I am a creepy Muslim feminist. The answer doesnt lay in the enslavement of women in Saudi or the sexual enslavement of the West. As usual it is in the elusive middle ground that no one seems to be able to find.

Muta marriage is a Shi’a practice where a marriage is for an arranged period of time. Unlike Misyaar, children from such a marriage are given the same rights as a regular nikah.

I believe there is little difference between Misyaar and Muta. Both are really nothing more than “legalised” dating that with a transfer of a dowry is akin more to prostitution.
delhi4cats, on June 20, 2008 at 1:35 am said:

I know that I continue to learn from all of these comments and points that are raised. It gives me much to contemplate so I can in turn (inshallah) write a thoughtful response.
Viking Daughter, on June 20, 2008 at 2:29 pm said:

onigiriFb: Loved your observations. Very valid points. I am also not a Nazi feminist, and loved being home while raising my children. With that said, I’ve never, ever felt I was less than a man. In fact, I view women as more than sacred due to the fact we do carry children, and *give life* and nurture.

I view males as lacking in self esteem so much so, that they must ”keep us in place” to puff themselves up. If a man wasn’t afraid of a woman’s gifts and powers, why persist in keeping us down? A real man would not fear a woman being free to choose her life path, whatever that may be. Marriage is not about ”ownership” or property rights.

And, Aafke I agree with your points on women being used by the porn and modelling ”careers” just another way to use women up and devalue them. To think they consider themselves liberated with these so called careers.

IMO, it’s the women who degrade themselves with the misyar marriages, as any marriage that is secretive is hardly a blessed union. Ditto for the mut’a marriages which the Shi’ites accept.
Viking Daughter, on June 20, 2008 at 2:30 pm said:

Abu Sinan:

”As usual it is in the elusive middle ground that no one seems to be able to find.”

Exactly!!!
Aafke, on June 20, 2008 at 3:15 pm said:

I agree with Viking Daughter, she said it a bit more eloquently than I did.
delhi4cats, on June 20, 2008 at 3:27 pm said:

The woman is one of the most precious gifts and think about it…as a wife, mother she is a natural peacemaker, adapt at conflict resolution, creative in finding alternative solutions to problems, natural teacher, leader…we are blessed with so many attributes so why do some women basically demean themselves by allowing a situation which puts their status in jeopardy and questionable circumstances?

I am by no means a women’s libber and in fact very traditional believing a woman should stand beside and support her husband, be there for the children but at the same time do not compromise on values and ethics.
OnigiriFB, on June 20, 2008 at 10:01 pm said:

Are women demeaning themselves if that is the only option they have or think they have? Sometimes in the West I think we go too far when we criminalize prostitution. I think it’s a valid choice (not one I would like my daughter to do or anyone I know but) and think that it should be legal in the United States and in Thailand. Why? I think it’s the woman’s choice whether she wished to sell her body. Her body, her choice is my thinking (this is also my views on abortion but that’s a totally different subject not on topic with this thread).

If it is legalized in the US we can move it to the open like they do in Nevada. Legalized prostitution can be made to follow laws, rules, and health procedures. I think it also takes out the “pimps” of the business. From my understanding in Nevada protitution being legal has actually helped the business. In Thailand, which is known for it’s “bang-bang girls” (and a lot of KSA richie-riches or not so rich use this service) and it’s tolerated in the open while being actually illegal. Talk about double standards? Ok wierd to me.

Anyway to tie it this thread do woman who engage in misyaar marriages, which we have already linked akin to “legalized” (Allah-ized? sorry if this is offensive) protitution, really have a choice in the societies/cultures that “allow” it? If given a choice would these women rather have a marriage that is openly acknowledged in society and be a respected wife and mother? Is it women’s fault that society/cultural rules have reduced them to accepting something less than what they would like or want? Would these woman if possible change the “laws” or whatever to take these marriages away?

BTW Is this the same thing as when woman in KSA “marry” so they can travel with a mahrem outside or inside of the Kingdom? I have heard there is a type of marriage that young Saudi women like to do so they can come to the States for university studies. I think it is known as something else but I am often wrong.

Still thinking about this topic. As an outsider it’s easy for me to look at the culture critically. Know that I also look at America culture critically. However, since I live in it sometimes it’s hard to see what someone outside of the States may pick up. I will always be grateful for the chance to live outside the US as I think this has made me realize what the world thinks of American culture and how it has spread around the world. I know a lot of Americans that aren’t happy with this as they feel Americans should be white, anglo-saxon, protestants. Somehow I feel like they have forgotten that the Mayflower delivered people who were ESCAPING religious prosecution and saw this land as one where they would not be MADE to follow believe in one doctrine or another. One thing the USA got right is the constitution where the State and Religion is seperate. For this I thank God, Buddha, Allah, Shiva, and all deities for the right to believe what I wish or not believe as I wish.
AbuSinan, on June 20, 2008 at 10:11 pm said:

There is a new form of marriage called a “travel marriage” but I cannot remember the Arabic for it. I mentioned it here in an earlier thread.
Saudi in US, on June 20, 2008 at 11:29 pm said:

OnigiriFB,

I agree with a lot of what you said.

I want to address the comments regarding linking Misyaar to prostitution. We may not like this form of marriage, but saying it is legalized prostitution is very far fetched in in some respects demeaning to women that choose this arrangement. Here are some specific differences:

1) prostitutes take multiple clients
2) prostitutes are in it for financial reasons not companionship
3) prostitutes engage in sex limited by a time constraint. Misyaar marriages are not marriage contracts with a time limitation. This is also a primary difference (and it is a very important one) between Misyaar and Muta’ah marriage. Saying those 2 marriage contracts are the same is a misrepresentation.

I can add more than the 3 but I think that is not necessary for the distinction.

I dislike the idea of Misyaar, because we put women in such a situation where they do not have many options. My argument is that we should focus on fixing the reasons why women are in such a tough situation. I discussed those reasons on an earlier comment. For now do not take this option away from women that can make the judgment with full knowledge of the consequences.

Regarding Muta’ah marriage. I think that is very close to legalized prostitution as the 3 conditions above can be met under that form of contract.
Khalid, on June 21, 2008 at 12:51 am said:

Well said Saudi in the US. I totally agree with your points about the differences. Muta’ah is completely different than Misyar. Sometimes we are not objective when we are furious and annoyed. I like your always calm/objective style.

Concerning women traveling abroad for studying , I personally know a dozen of Saudi unmarried women who are in a scholarship alone (alone = unaccompanied with anyone).. Interestingly enough, I was yesterday in a panel about Saudi Arabia. The English Language Center invited 5 Saudi students to talk about the culture and the difficulties a Saudi student might encounter in north America. Our audience was about 40 instructors and the administration staff at the ELC. The reason of this panel is they want to know more about Saudi Arabia because in September the univ is getting 70 Saudi student more than half of them are Saudi females. According to the head of the ELC, all those student are Masters candidates. The ELC never had more than 10 Saudi students, so 70 at a time is something uncommon for them. I liked their idea though for inviting us to the panel .
Saudi in US, on June 21, 2008 at 1:36 am said:

Thanks Khalid

I bet you were a great representative on the panel and probably set the par very high for the new guys and ladies
OnigiriFB, on June 21, 2008 at 2:25 am said:

My apologies for any offence. I am still a little confused between a misyaar and a mut’a marriage. Both it seemed to be a little disreputable? This of course is my interpretation only. I took the comments from this post and extrapolated that they were similar to the western perception of legalized prostitution. Is it uncommon then for a man or a woman who has a contract for a misyaar marriage to only have one or two per lifetime?

The reason I ask is you said that prostitutes take more than one client. You also said that prostitutes are only in it for the money not the companionship (depends sometimes I think. If we look at Hugh Hefner’s “girlfriends” you could say they are in it for the companionship also. I think it’s more that they get to live in the Playboy Mansion) but misyaar marriages are not. I had thought the benefit of a misyaar marriage is that it is easy to get out of and there is not time limits or restraints on the man side should anything come of it. IMHO this all seems like a legal form of prostitution to this western bred girl.

Maybe I am confusing the two different marriages. I will attempt to research this topic further before I comment again I think so as not to go too far in my ignorance.

Khalid – Thank you. That sounds very interesting that there are going to be so many different female scholars attending that one University. I know that Des Moines Osteopathic Medical School in my city is a place where a lot of KSA/Muslimas go to school. The church I belong to has a lot of members that have gone or go to that school and I know a few teachers there also. The have told me stories of how they had to adapt to Muslimas who veiled fully and how awkward they felt at their own ignorance. I hope I have helped a few Muslimas by trying to teach those future doctors how to show respect for a follower of Islam. Perhaps this will help balance the ignorance I may show on other subjects about Islam.
Saudi in US, on June 21, 2008 at 3:52 am said:

OnigiriFB, Sorry if i left the impression that i was directing all my comments to you. Only the first one was the rest were general in response to many of the other comments on the thread.

Here are very high level definitions of the 2 types:

Muta’ah: An arrangement where the spouses enter into the agreement with the intent to divorce after a specific period of time. Muta’ah literally means pleasure, hence a pleasure marriage. At its extreme Muta’ah can be done for 1 night, which is like an encounter with a prostitute. Woman usually get paid for Mutta’ah marriage, but they call it dowry instead of a fee.

Misyaar: is an arrangement where under the agreement a woman may give up some of her rights like the man being responsible for providing a home and payment for expenses. Additionally it may include that he only visits at certain times. The woman accepts this instead of a traditional marriage because she may not be able to get married by other means or she may have other circumstances that ties her to her family. The bad side of this is the faith of children is not clear, but I think a man cannot get away from his responsibility to the children under sharii’a regardless of the contract. The other big disadvantage is most cases are polygamist.

By the way, do not get concerned about speaking your mind most of the discussions have been polite and very fruitful in educating all of us.
Abu Sinan, on June 21, 2008 at 7:37 am said:

Many Saudi women travel for the scholarship without a male guardian. All three of my sister in laws were on the scholarship through the Embassy without a Mehram (guardian) as was my wife.

It is not a requirement for the Cultural Mission, but it is for many families. It is also important to note that women who travel with a mehram for school on the scholarship get an extra sum of money that women without a guardian do not. That dollar amount is somewhere around $1,000 a month, some 3,750 riyals. It is a rather significant amount.
delhi4cats, on June 21, 2008 at 7:51 am said:

Khalid,

I hope that you’ll direct those who wish to learn more about Saudi customs and culture to my blog. (smile) I think the panel was an excellent outreach by the institution.

I do not like the concept of misyaar and like Saudi in US (and others) believes it in many ways limits or further demeans women and their role. But on the other hand if it does open up some options for Saudi women and they can reach an agreeable arrangement, then one can see some benefits. Mutah (sp?) marriages to me are demeaning and sad as that one is where I do link it to the same as prostitution and I believe it takes away from the values of marriage. It is sad that it is a marriage for only a set limit of time…what’s the point unless to “paint” a legal bandage on an act?

I know of some Saudi families who will have a mahrem travel with the female family member to get settled outside KSA for education but then may leave to return back to KSA (the mahrem). Saudi women/Saudi female students have proven themselves to be adaptable and capable of doing just fine outside of KSA without a mahrem.
delhi4cats, on June 22, 2008 at 10:20 am said:

Reuters chose to pick up this post:

http://www.reuters.com/article/blogBurst/environment?bbPostId=CzCso0daZ4bnXBEZgr4vZTMqJB6HHO8FPtg7VBDOTdXgElA76
Fatima, on October 6, 2008 at 5:11 am said:

My two cents:
Misyaar marriage is perhaps the only option for some muslim women as well as men. You all assume that because some wrongdoers abuse this type of marriage, there are no misyaar marriages that fit into the conditions stated far above in the original post. There could be a man who loves his first wife very much, but she can’t give him a child. And where is it stated that a man would not be responsible for the offspring produced by such a marriage??
American Bedu, on October 6, 2008 at 7:27 am said:

Fatima – thanks for sharing your view. I guess though when I hear a man wants to have a child then that -should- be with a “full” marriage since that is also allowable in Islam rather than a legal agreement in order to reproduce halaly.

But after saying the above (which is only my personal view) I am actually aware of a misyaar marriage where the couple has had a child and it is as you described… the man does take care of the child … but not the mother. And the child does live with its mother. But what kind of an environment does this send to a child? What does society think of a child coming from such a background? Does that ultimately impact on the child as he or she gets older and wants to marry? I’m not trying to be sarcastic here but asking from genuine curiosity since I don’t know.
Saudi Arabia’s Boudl Suites – Haven for Misyaar Marriages « American Bedu, on November 21, 2008 at 8:15 am said:

[…] suites have also become a haven for those who have engaged in misyaar marriages as well. I have written previously on what a misyaar marriage is and who would want it and with this post, I will focus on misyaar […]
THE HOLY SINNER., on April 28, 2009 at 4:33 pm said:

I am probably too late in replying to some of the comments above. Tell me all you good ladies and gentlemen, opposing this Misyar, first how much you yourselves actually know about it? My best guess would be what all you have read on the net. No worries.

But what does seem amusing is the fact that none of you have spoken against women having men or men having women outside a relation. Then in some cases resorting to abortion, which to my mind, amounts to killing a living being. But then again, your acceptance of society allows it perhaps. I am not being sarcastic, only skeptical. And then there is ofcourse the option of resorting to artificial or paid sex. If asked to vote, I will go for Misyar. Oh and by the way, it is actually not Misyar, but Mutah which is the correct word. It is mentioned in the 24 th verse of Surah Al-Nisa at the end of the verse. The actual word there is FAMASTUM TA’TUM. Muta happens to be the 10 diluted derivation of the word.

My email address is [email protected] and am open to discussion.

But tell me this, and it does put me to shame saying it here, my wife refused outrightly to pay conjugal rights. Not once, not for one month. But months at a stretch. As a husband I was brought to the ignominy of asking her. And she sent the maid to me. A colleague in the office, a female was ready and willing to be replaced as wife in “certain” aspects and to “help”. What should have been my options? What do you suggest? Well I refused the “help” and then started searching for a legal solution. This is one. The misyar. I would rather die courting a legal relation, known to her Wali and having accepted me thrice in presence of witnesses, as prescribed in the religion, or I could die having sex outside a relation. My choice and I pray for it, would the first option. Atleast, I will go to my CREATOR not feeling guilty of a major sin. Which by the way, happens to be a sin in every religion. People who have had editions in their “holy(?)” book only find it easy to comment against everything religious in Islam and that too in the name of open society or being open minded. And that open society and being open minded pushed Jimmy Carter to admit that one thirds of Americans do not know who their father is. Sorry to my American readers, but this is what your president said.
American Bedu, on April 28, 2009 at 5:57 pm said:

@Holy Sinner,

The ;post was not intended to open up finger pointing at the
distinctions in culture pertaining to marriage but to illustrate the
different types of marriages which take place and are condoned in
Saudi Arabia. The post also advises of examples of when and why a
misyaar marriage has taken place. However a misyaar marriage is not a
mutah marriage since the definition itself of a mutah marriage is a
temporary marriage. Furthermore a mutah marriage is practiced by
shia’a muslims and most sunni muslims do not recognize mutah.

and for the record, I do know a few (and emphasis on few) women who
have agreed and are in a misyaar marriage.

I also thank you for sharing you have such a marriage and explaining
the reasons behind why you engaged in a misyaar marriage.
Lynn, on April 28, 2009 at 7:27 pm said:

Holy Sinner,
Wouldn’t you think that there is a serious problem if your wife does not want sex with you for months?

In cultures that do not allow a man to resort to a misyaar or mutah marriage and where the couple is concerned about their ‘relationship’ which includes much much more than just ‘sex’ the ‘answer’ to your problem would include medical exams, marriage counseling and even sex therapy if it was determined that that was an issue rather than that she just does not enjoy sex with you personally for whatever reason.

Your solution only solved your problem. What about your wife? Does she not deserve a satisfying sex life?
coolred38, on April 28, 2009 at 8:08 pm said:

I agree with Lynn…have you bothered to wonder why your wife has gone off you? Is she suffering some medical condition, depression, emotional pain of some sort…? Next time the maid comes over with a message send one of your own…”wife, is something wrong? How can I help you?

Like Lynn said…you only solved your problem of being horny and someone to take care of it.

btw I know who my father is…do you?
THE HOLY SINNER., on April 29, 2009 at 10:28 am said:

Well since this is getting a little too deep into my ex-personal life, let me assure you all that she behaved in this way because she wanted me to shift out of my country to another one, something which I did not agree to. There was no other reason. Any counseling help offered was even declined. I tried till my last to keep the marriage intact, but my last was probably not supposed to last.

Lynn, the only solution I got to my being “horny” was get married again after my first wife left me and I had settled all her financial claims.

Coolred, you really need to worry about what your own president said and why he said it. Dont try to be derogatory. I could have given you a conforming reply, but then there are others here I need to respect. In our part of the world, we live and thrive as a family. Dogs and SUVs are not treated as living beings/family members. We live amongst humans.
Have a nice day or whatever is left of it in your part of the world.
coolred38, on April 29, 2009 at 12:29 pm said:

My part of the world…do you even know where I live? I have neither a dog or SUV and really cant be blamed for anything the President has to say…past or present. Im sure his wife kicked his ass over it tho when all the cameras were long gone.
Miriam Mac, on April 29, 2009 at 1:21 pm said:

Holy Sinner, I have always been against misyar marriages in general, but in your case, it doesn’t sound like a misyar. Your wife knew about it….and you had very sound reasons to divorce her and get married again.

Many women’s issues with misyar , however, seem to be that it’s done in secret with a married man. One teenage daughter asked her father, “How would you feel if I got married behind your back? What if I came home and told you I was having a baby and you didn’t know the father? Would you be happy for me or would you feel betrayed?”

She was angry because her father had a misyar, got the gal pregnant…and it was one of the women in her circle of friends! Not only had he hurt her mother, but he made her feel ashamed to even face these people.

I think that misyar marriages between SINGLE people is like ‘halal’ sex or ‘halal’ dating in the West. (Whether one agrees it’s legal or not, it IS happening in the Kingdom apparently…though I don’t know of any cases myself.)

Men need to remember that whatever woman they’re with in a relationship, it IS someone’s daughter. They should treat them with care and protect their image.
Lynn, on April 29, 2009 at 3:59 pm said:

Well, Holy Sinner, you are anonymous on here so you should feel completely comfortable talking about personal issues. I think we all appreciate hearing a man’s point of view .

It sounds to me that your situation really didn’t have anything at all to do with misyaar or mutah. Your wife simply wanted a divorce and you went and found a quick and easy sex outlet until then. Why didn’t you just marry that other woman in a regular marriage rather than misyaar? Are you still in the misyaar marriage or did you make it a real one?

Coolred – ‘Im sure his wife kicked his ass over it tho when all the cameras were long gone’
LOL That’s us American women for ya, no respect for the MAN! That’s probably why we don’t let our kids know who they are!

Another thing, dogs aren’t living beings? I don’t have one myself but I’ve seen dogs and they seem very alive.
Chiara, on April 29, 2009 at 10:08 pm said:

The Holy Sinner-thank you for sharing what is obviously a very painful situation to have lived through. If I understand you correctly, your first wife either withheld sex as a deliberate tactic (always a poor strategy/tactic) to force you to change countries, or didn’t feel like having sex as a response to your refusal to change countries (also a poor coping strategy though understandable). In either case, she refused your offer to go for counselling (her alone?, or both of you?), and your solution was to remarry after she left you, and you had settled her financial affairs, ie you didn’t have an extramarital affair, nor an alternative form of marriage during your time married to her, or only between the formal separation and divorce decree.

Like it or not there are probably rare circumstances where a stable “extramarital marriage” is the only reasonable solution. eg. where there is severe incompatibility but no realistic option or desire for divorce, a “Terry Schiavo” scenario ie one comatose partner but necessary to maintain the marriage for insurance purposes, or some other reason (they happen more often than people realize), etc.

I missed out on Jimmy Carter’s faux pas, but one of the challenges of medical research in the days of DNA has been to discover the number of fathers and children thinking they are biologically related when they are not (10% in a study on cystic fibrosis-not looking to find that), which also arises in searches for family donors of a transplantable organ. I don’t know the cross-cultural statistics on this though.

I hope you have found happiness “the second time around”
Aafke, on April 29, 2009 at 10:27 pm said:

Holy sinner you invuited discussion and we are all pleased to accept.

So, your wife didn’t want to have sex with you… For many months…
Did it occur to you that maybe you just aren’t that good?
At sex?
It takes skill you know, as well as consideration of the other party involved…
Something I gathered from your selfcentred comment you aren’t very good at either…
So unless you pay your halal misyaar date enough cash it wouldn’t surprise me if she stopped wanting to have you over as well.

PS, There are many good books on technique and relationship issues to be found at Amazon.com, Never hurts to do a bit of study.
American Bedu, on April 29, 2009 at 11:17 pm said:

My take on Holy Sinner’s comments is that he has made every attempt to
be just and fair and he exercised on of the rights which are available
and halal to a muslim man and a woman. While I am not an advocate of
a misyaar, mutah, or polygamous marriage, I will not cast a stone at
Holy Sinner and greatly appreciate his candidness.
Chiara, on April 29, 2009 at 11:27 pm said:

American Bedu-agreed.
Aafke, on April 29, 2009 at 11:35 pm said:

ok, okeeeeee, I’ll pipe down….
THE HOLY SINNER., on April 30, 2009 at 12:11 pm said:

Many thanks for all the kind words to all you good people. Now let me make another attempt of explaining a few things and I sure I get them explained right this time…

The first is, and this is for all those who rightly say that it is very important to ensure your woman is satisfied. There is no doubt about that and it is only a must on the husband to ensure that his wife hits it before he does…which for a man is much easier than for a woman. Heaven knows I tried. Heaven knows she did. I will wrap it up here as this not just entails personal details, but might bring me to mention a lady who once was my wife. Then what went wrong, is something I cannot answer even now. I do not know. But now I have two children, and have three in total.

I will not get to the debate of what is allowed, Misyaar or Muta’ah in Islam. To my understanding, both are the same thing and the ones who know Islam can have a detailed discussion on this with me. For the ones who have correctly taken exception to my mention of what Jimmy Carter said, please know that it was not an attempt of putting anyone down or to be disrespectful to any one or any culture. The point is and on this I hold my ground, that Islam gives an option in having more than one women to men, and to have more than one man to women. Now there are right ways of doing the right thing and wrong ways of doing the right thing. I choose the first option. Please note that there are conditions, both pre and post to the Misyaar or Muta’ah and all because the Creator wants a very clear line for both the man and the woman. We can delve in it later, I do not think that this is the right forum to discuss all that.

Now consider all the facts of that time, when JC made that statement. My point is that there must have been something which drove him to say what he did. And once again I will request you all to please allow me to say that there are both right and wrong ways of doing something. This is to say that when we have the legal option of having a wife, then why seek the same thing outside the boundary?

To all those who have misunderstood the science of polygamy, as the sites on the net keep harping, is allowed in Islam, the very next verse from the one that allows it, says “provided you can do justice to all of them, and WE know you will not be able to”.

Good muslims nowadays only adhere to the first part of it. I was taught to look at the second one as well and that was the reason why I did not opt to have an extra marital wife or relation, when I needed it the most and spent those three and a half years giving myself some kind of physical pain to keep my mind off of the “need for speed”. By not being able to do justice, as mentioned in THE BOOK, it means all kinds of justice. Physical, psychological, financial et al.

I sure hope it is now better understood than my last effort which turned some people off. I reiterate that it was not meant to switch anyone off and that is why I had given my personal email account address as well. There is still no intention of my hurting anyone. It is just a comparison between the right options available as versus the wrong options we take. Peace to all.
coolred38, on April 30, 2009 at 1:03 pm said:

make sure his wife “hits it” first… new and interesting terminology for the Big O

I have been divorced over two years…all I can say is…I miss “hitting it” something fierce? poor me

*sorry Carol…couldnt resist?
THE HOLY SINNER., on April 30, 2009 at 3:26 pm said:

I sure hope your life is now back on track Coolred38. And yes, I have actually started liking this “Mr. Green”.

Cheers.
Lynn, on April 30, 2009 at 3:49 pm said:

Holy sinner,
Fine you have explained that you were an honorable man and couldn’t do right by your first wife if you took a second wife. So you chose a temporary marriage to tend to your sexual needs before you got divorced and freed yourself up to get a complete new wife. Also, how long can you go without sex before you can resort to a temporary marriage?

I still stand by my first comment. What was your wife to do since she was not getting her sexual satisfaction and she was married? Why do you think that it is ok that you, because you are a man, should be allowed a halal means of sexual release when your wife did not have the same option?

I would also like your honest opinion on a woman who would choose to have this type of temporary marriage. Do you think that a woman like that would be good enough to marry as a first wife to one of your sons would she be looked at as a prostitute to others since she had had temporary marriages?
THE HOLY SINNER., on April 30, 2009 at 8:42 pm said:

Lynn, I really appreciate your kind words. Honestly speaking, I did not opt for the temporary marriage. Infact, much as I searched for a Halal option and got the knowledge and a kind lady ready for it, I didnt go ahead with it. Simply because of what you said. What would have my wife done? Seperation did not warrant my taking the option. Like I said, I tried till the last and then a wee bit more. It was just not destined to work out. I did not go for misyaar or Muta’ah.

Now to answer the other query. If you ask me honestly, I will not and mean WILL NOT even if one is ready, like to marry a woman who I will be the first man for. Misyaar is designed to be essentially for widows/widowers and divorced people. And before you ask me, yes, I will allow the women in my family, if they choose the right path, to go ahead with the Halal option. Afterall, it is the stopping from taking this option, that people opt for other means of satisfying themselves. This is as honest as I can be.

Now I am going hunting for two days and will be able to reply to any futher mails on Saturday. Take care all.
Chiara, on May 1, 2009 at 12:54 am said:

The Holy Sinner-thank you once again for being so open and yet discreet about such a difficult topic.

Just as general comment, sadly many suffer sexual incompatibilities that are highly treatable if both partners, or sometimes even one, are willing to seed professional medical/therapeutic help. Many are unwilling to do so, however, or are happy with the situation for whatever reason.
American Bedu, on May 1, 2009 at 1:59 am said:

@Holy Sinner — thank you!!
American Bedu, on May 1, 2009 at 2:00 am said:

@coolred – I thought the phrase “hitting it” was very tactful! And
hope you get hit soon CR!

(bad grin)

Bedu
THE HOLY SINNER., on May 2, 2009 at 2:00 pm said:

Chiara, you are right. I know a friend of mine, a banker by profession, who hails from that part of our country, where men are proud of being…if nothing else…men!!

Now he is unable to have a child out of his wedlock, because he himself needs help but outrightly refuses to do so. On every suggestion that he should get himself checked, he ends up taking his wife to one or the other doctor and ends up blaming the doctor for not being good. His wife is pretty decent to just go with the flow, and not say a single word on it.

In my case, life was like text book definition of, if one actually exists, Alice’s wonderland. My first wife and I used to try and please each other. The standard practice was for her to decide what all will be done and then go full throttle for the “objective”. You see, we, men, need to understand that women are brought up in their families with more care and affection than us, as children. Obviously, they expect their men to do even better…”he was my father but you are my husband!”
A girl grows up dreaming of his prince charming and when she finds one, makes him her complete world. We need to let go of a lot of ego issues to please someone, who trusted us without fully knowing us and placed all the emotion she needs to live a happy life, in our plate.

I have already mentioned that when things started going astray on this migrating to another country bid, when we drifted apart, first mentally, then physically and then emotionally after which we became like the railroad track, running alongside each other from end to end, but never crossing/touching the other one!

Yes, there are people who are willing “to do so (as mentioned in your comment)”. But their willingness depends on how much they want to give to their partner. Like for example, my wife, refused any third person to be included in our matters. I tried a number of people both from her side and my side of the family. I say two different sides, as by that time, we had become two seperate individuals. I have read both Henry Kissenger and Richard Nixon and understand the importance of “back door diplomacy”. So where they did it at a global level, I tried it at my own local level. But in the end it really comes down to the willingness of both to survive. I am no saint, and cannot pose like one, but I had some very sane elders who were guiding me all throughout and I think I was luck to have them and to have the ability to listen to them. So now I live a content life with all we tried to do to save the relation.

My week just started…all of you have a good weekend!
Chiara, on May 2, 2009 at 6:09 pm said:

The Holy Sinner

I hope you had a good hunting trip!

Once again you have raised a number of important issues related to how some people might be tempted to have a misyaar marriage, or may decide to have one.

Your example of the banker who has trouble conceiving a child within his marital couple is a very familiar and universal one, though accentuated in more traditional and patriarchal cultures. This type of pattern is one of the reasons all Drs are trained to conceptualize infertility cases as caused 1/3 of the time by the wife’s factors, 1/3 the husband’s, and 1/3 the couple’s together. eg. the wife has blocked tubes, or the husband has a low sperm count, or the wife has partially blocked tubes which combined with the husband’s low sperm count reduces fertility for their couple. Drs are also trained to start the investigations with the husband since it is easier, faster, and cheaper to start with the analysis of a sperm sample and go from there.

These are only the medical factors though, and as you describe there are many other psychological, emotional, and social factors involved. Unfortunately, as you point out, many have unrealistic expections of themselves and their partner, and of the relationship- often based on fairy tales, novels, films, and stories told by others that emphasize the positives and don’t reveal the challenges of normal marriages between decent caring people. Two virgins may have particular difficulties with knowing what to do in practice rather than in theory. Also, I read recently in a reliable source that many men gain their ideas of sexual technique from erotic/pornographic films, for lack of a better source, which unfortunately leaves them with false impressions and inadequate knowledge. The two partners in a new marriage are by definition neophytes at this particular relationship, and may have particular difficulties with the psychological and social changes that accompany marriage.

As you alluded to, and American Bedu often emphasizes, being raised in a highly segregated culture can leave boys and girls growing in two different orbits, only to collide as men and women, who have little understanding of the other’s perspective. This happens elsewhere, especially for children in same gender schools and activities, who have no siblings or relatives close in age who are the opposite gender, but perhaps not so rigidly.

You have described very well how a marriage can become “derailed”, despite the best intentions and efforts made to preserve it. In your case, it is sad that your wife was not willing to accept help from others, but at least you can be satisfied that you tried your best to remedy a difficult situation, and had wise and supportive counsel.

If I understand you correctly in an earlier comment , you have now been blessed with 2 biological children with your 2nd wife, and a 3rd child (?stepchild). I am glad you have found happiness “the second time around”. (There is an English expression that love is better the second time around, ie the second marriage; and also one that is “second time likely”, both great for people on a second marriage)

Happy work week! LOL?
THE HOLY SINNER., on May 2, 2009 at 7:58 pm said:

Chiara, you are most definitely a well read person, if not a doctor. Like I said, in the case of that idiot friend of mine, it is ego. The typical male ego!

And yes you are very right in saying that when males and females are not allowed to meet, they tend to collide…very aptly described. You see, I am presently working in an arab country, which is not my home country and here only I got to know of this Misyaar. Many people support it here. Infact I was asked by a few colleagues a little more emphatically than desired and I also went to the office that takes care of this need but these people here are at times more difficult to crack than the proverbial “nuts!!”

But look at the figures, 1.5 million spinsters. 65% population here is under the age of 15 out ofwhich 48% (government figures) are females. With an annual rate of 60% divorces taking place with girls getting married even before they understand the true width and depth of the meaning of the North Korean missile “Dong”, it will be total chaos in a few years. Misyar seems to be the only right answer, as girls above 25 years of age or divorced, come under certain restrictions, which only their getting married again takes off of them. And this is only one country. The whole region is suffering and the state of denial that exists, adds to the misery not seen by those who should. There are many other situations that add up here to make matters worse, but then again, this is not the correct forum for it.

And now to reply to the concluding line in your post. All my friends and family are back home or in the west, which means that they are usually off from the net, which further means that I am the only one on my list of more than 300 signed in on my MSN for two days!!

Enjoy your time. I had one hell of a hunting trip.
American Bedu, on May 2, 2009 at 8:48 pm said:

@Holy Sinner – I’d like to point out that for those who may not be
aware it is rare indeed for a Saudi let alone a male Saudi to reach
out for help from others as you have done. Kudos to you!
American Bedu, on May 2, 2009 at 8:49 pm said:

@Holy Sinner – my apologies for earlier comment in which I gave you
Saudi nationality! (smile)

Very good points about the current structure in KSA population and
age-wise and the ramifications.
Chiara, on May 2, 2009 at 9:09 pm said:

A Holy Sinner-well read and a Dr (psychiatrist)-ie “guilty” on both accounts.?

Male ego and female vanity-so many potential bad combinations!

Regarding your geographical distance from family and friends, that makes a long 2 days for you then! Hope they pass quickly!

Would you be willing to share the geographic region of your home country eg. South Asia, East Asia? If not no problem. Just wanted to give kudos to the region you are from, since you and your family seem unusually insightful about all this.

All the best
THE HOLY SINNER., on May 2, 2009 at 11:59 pm said:

Well Doc, I am from Pakistan, South Asia. Many thanks for the appreciation. I will pass on your wishes to my family.

I forgot to mention that I have a son from my previous marriage. Total 3 children. A baby girl, my lifeline, gets sandwiched between two sons. My first wife took my son and ran off to Canada. I have not seen of heard of him since last 7 years now. God alone knows not a single day passes when I do not talk to my eldest son. Marching instride with where I am now based, he is my Crown Prince and will one day come back to me.

Take care.

P.S. For any discussions on the political situation in Pakistan, feel free to mail on my personal account.
Chiara, on May 3, 2009 at 2:46 am said:

The Holy Sinner

You certainly have suffered from that first marriage. I hope your son will soon be of an age to look for and find you. Ideally, divorcing parents preserve the children’s relationship with both parents. However, I recognize this is an ideal, and perhaps more of a North American one since I know of divorces in other cultures where this was not given any consideration, in fact the opposite was true.

Oh Pakistan… where to start… where to end…rather like the porous borders…
Gloria, on May 3, 2009 at 3:06 am said:

What is the proper way to go about this? Can I say, “Hey dude, can you Misyar me?” OR “Hey buddy, wanna get misyared”??
American Bedu, on May 3, 2009 at 3:51 am said:

@Gloria — stay tuned…a separate post is forthcoming with those details!
Gloria, on May 3, 2009 at 3:59 am said:

LOOOOOOL…..I can only drool & wait! Yeahhhhh?

Details are always good. I want to learn the alphabet of Misyar in case it becomes necessary. Education is never a waste ?
Marriage to a Saudi Can Be Confusing! « American Bedu, on May 23, 2009 at 3:19 am said:

[…] with a Saudi? I am not an expert but there certainly seem to be a lot of similarities between a misyaar marriage and a mutah marriage. In a misyar marriage a man and woman will have a marriage contract […]
THE HOLY SINNER., on June 21, 2009 at 8:09 pm said:

Can someone please tell me what a “khibainee” is and why are Saudi men go crazy over the prospects of it?
THE HOLY SINNER., on June 21, 2009 at 8:13 pm said:

Sorry, a typo in the previous message. What I wanted to ask was why the saudi men are SO (not go) crazy over the prospects of something they call Khibainee or Khobainee.
daifuku, on June 21, 2009 at 9:00 pm said:

Holy Sinner-I am not sure what that is. I made it out to be “kibah nayee.” Is taht what you meant?
If so, kibah nayee is food. I am not sure what food has to do with misyaar, so I think I’ve misunderstood or you haven’t got the word quite right either LOL. =)
American Bedu, on June 22, 2009 at 12:40 am said:

I do not understand the word either and don’t believe I’ve heard it before.
THE HOLY SINNER, on November 25, 2009 at 1:36 pm said:

Eid Saeed to all.
Ahmeditms, on January 13, 2010 at 12:42 pm said:

Hi,

I am from Jeddah Working in Saudi Aramco want to Marri as a Misyyar so please let me know the proper sorces and if any on intrested they can contact me [email protected]
Ahmeditms, on January 13, 2010 at 12:43 pm said:

Hi,

I am from Jeddah Working in Saudi Aramco want to Marri as a Misyyar so please let me know the proper sorces and if any on intrested they can contact me [email protected]
Ilyas, on January 27, 2010 at 8:39 pm said:

Bismi-lah. Dear muslims and muslimahs! Why do you keep wasting your breath trying to explain to these non-muslims and half muslims about these types of marriage? They don’t want to know! Do you think they are sincere and have innocent intentions? They hate muslims and Islam. That’s why the more you give facts and explain the details or Misyar, or Urfi, or Mu’tah they continue to insist it’s prostitution. That tells you what kind of mind they have. Let they keep trying to show you how superior their world is as it continues the crumble around their ears. All the have left is technology really. They are in reality bankrupt, and the social life forget it. Stop wasting you breath on these demons and devils. They will never accept what you’re saying. To them their religion(or lack of religion)and to us ours. If they don’t like it who cares. They don’t have to practice it so why do they care so much! Our problems are our business. It’s non of their business what we do in the muslim world. They have enough problems in their own. Let them worry about their perfect so-called Christian world. Don’t you see how they just love to think they’ve found corruption in the muslims? They love it! They are you’re enemies. Don’t be fooled and stop trying to convince them. Just tell them to go to hell! Period!
Aafke, on January 28, 2010 at 4:53 am said:

I am a lot more sincere aned innocent as you. That’s why I dislike prostitution, even organised prostitution.
Those men are devils and demons who force women into being thirdrate humans, to be treated like posessions and prostituted with the spurious approval of hypocritical clerics.

They are defenitely going to hell.
Abu Sinan, on January 28, 2010 at 6:49 am said:

Half Muslims eh? The person thinks they are so religious they have already elevated themselves to God and feel the right to judge everyone else, even other Muslims.

Too bad they know SO little about their own religion that they seem completely unaware that their statement is a grave sin in Islam.
Ilyas, on January 28, 2010 at 12:39 pm said:

Bismi-lah. You mean the prostitution of placing half naked women on car hoods to sell their car? I won’t buy a car unless naked suzy is on the hood? Please! Aafke, flunky, or whatever your name is. Go find fault in your world. There’s plenty to find. Help your own world.
Why do you care so much what muslims do or don’t do? Are you a muslim? Don’t live there! Move! For the record only Allah swt knows who is or isn’t going to hell. Leave that!

Abu Sinan, if you are a muslim , what statement of mine is a grave sin in Islam? Did anyone make a statement as to their degree of religiousity? Is a muslim insane enough to equate him/herself with the All Mighty Allah swt? I don’t know post you read, but you need new interpretation skills. That statement stuck in your mind? Why? I don’t recall using your name in the post? I was discussing some of these ignorant so-called muslimahs that always hate polygamy and agree with westerners about relationships. Allah swt is Al-Hakim. We don’t have to apologize for our law which is from Allah swt. If you don’t like it don’t practice it, but don’t apologize for it or misyar because westerners or whoever doesn’t like it. Allah swt knows and they don’t know sqwat!
Aafke, on January 28, 2010 at 2:04 pm said:

All muslimas have the right to hate polygamy. It is sunnah to demand to be the only wife.
The prophet did not want polygamy for his daughter Fatimah, and the granddaughter of the prophet had it stipulated in her marriage contract.
Ilyas, on January 28, 2010 at 4:49 pm said:

Bismi-lah. Yes aafke,but why did the Prophet not want polygamy for his daughter? You left out the most important fact. Oh I forgot to mention he himself had nine wives and 5 malakat aiimans(right hand possession)in your language. Why did you leave that fact out? You must have read it to get what you’ve stated so far? See how diseased your intentions are? Ali RA the husband of Fatima Zahra RAA , the Prophet’s daughter, wanted to marry Abu Sufyan’s daughter. He was the main adversary to the Prophet and leader of the un-believing army before his conversion to Al-Islam. The Prophet SAWS stated that the daughter of the Prophet SAWS and the enemy of Allah swt could not be under the same roof! You forgot that small fact. Why? Also after the death of Fatima Zahra RAA , Ali RA had many wives and right hand possessions. Isn’t that refreshing when the whole story is told? Not the tricky devilish deceptions that you try to SLIP past the unknowing? Are you calling yourself a muslim? On what authority shaitan is it sunnah to demand to be the only wife? Does Fatima Zahra establish sunnah for muslims? Or does the Prophet of Allah swt do that for the muslims? Very tricky. But not enough yet. Go back to your chief devil and take more lessons!
Ilyas, on January 28, 2010 at 5:16 pm said:

Bismi-lah. Un-holysinner. Are you claiming to be from Pakistan? Are you claiming to be a muslim? What muslim would pick an evil name like that? Why are you so devilish to try and mix water(Holy), and oil(sinner)? They don’t mix. Try it. Basic science. Why are you people so deceptive? Always trying to pass yourselves off as something you’re not? Many of you westerners will come on here with what you think is an islamic title writing bullcrap in the name of muslims. FRAUDS! Cowards!
Abu Sinan, on January 28, 2010 at 5:17 pm said:

@Ilayas,

Making judgements on another Muslims deen, especially publically, is a VERY GRAVE SIN in Islam. If you dont know this then you have very little cause to be lecturing other people about Islam and the Sunnah! Calling someone a “half Muslim” based upon what you read online is a very big deal.

Any hasanat or ajr you hope to be gained is completely lost by judging unknown people in such a manner and rendering your “advice” in a public forum.

If you were as knowledgeable as you would like us to think you’d also be aware that “misyar” marriage is NOT an accepted practice in the whole Muslim world and is not accepted by all scholars. It is a minority practice accepted by a minority amount of scholars. So to brand someone basically a kafir because they “equate him/herself with the All Mighty Allah swt” for not agreeing with you or the practice is another very grave sin.

Since you do not provide an e-mail for me to e-mail privately my “nasee7a” (advice) as is the proper Islamic practice, I would advise you to watch the way you judge and label other Muslims whom you do not know. I would advise you to stop the stealthy proclaimations of takfir against other Muslims. Protect your soul and refrain from committing these VERY serious sins in Islam.

I would also remind you of the Sunnah of our Prophet which commanded us to remain silent if we cannot debate others in a better manner. Your manners here have been awful towards Muslims and non Muslims alike.

If you care about the Sunnah, either adjust your approach and how you are dealing with this subject or refrain from speaking.
Ilyas, on January 28, 2010 at 5:27 pm said:

Bismi-lah. Since many of you have been dipping your noses into holy sources with sorted intentions let me give you some bad news! If you live long enough you will see that all the money spent and lives lost and death caused by the West was in vain. Almost like Vietnam. Thousands dead and thirty years later, “lets do business”. Astounding!
I know you don’t believe in Prophesy;but this community(Islamic)cannot be defeated by external military forces! It may seem so for a time;but it can’t! Hence the mighty Russian “super power” can’t defeat a people that have nothing but rocks. But they go bankrupt and disintegrate. Now Obama is scrambling to get his butt out of Afghanistan while trying to look like the victor. Running out of Iraq also. As weak as the muslims are, oh well! Stay tuned!
Ilyas, on January 28, 2010 at 5:45 pm said:

Bismi-lah. AbuSinan, who exactly did I call a half muslim? Give me the name or description? If you call a muslim a non muslim directly or to his face then one of you is a unbeliever. Is that what I’ve done dear brother? If you are a brother! Dear brother(maybe) you lecture me on judging others and then do the exact same to me! I guess you now know that it’s impossible not to judge. But let me say this. If you’re genuinely a muslim I have nothing but love for you. If you’re not I don’t give a fart what you think and you don’t tell me what to say or not say. CLEAR! These people are saying evil things about the muslim community and I’m not standing by while they do it. Allah swt says in Qu’ran be harsh against unbelievers and hypocrites. Allah swt is the final judge not you or me. Half muslims are open targets because they’re not sincere. You can have whatever opinion you want about me. You aren’t Allah swt who knows me completely. You dear brother(if you’re a brother) may disagree with me, so be it. That is as far as it goes. If you’re not than open season on you like it’s open season on muslims. If you’re sincere in your advice to me and you’re a muslim I humble except it. I also don’t care if you think I’m learned or ignorant. That isn’t my focus or concern. This is war and I’m not trying to win a popularity contest! So I have your message, you make war your way and I’ll make it my way. Allah swt will judge the intentions. As-salaamu-alaikum
RoseColoredGlasses, on January 28, 2010 at 5:54 pm said:

Funny, I used to be so against misyar marriages….and it is definitely not for me or anyone else that I know. The women that have found out have been very upset by it, and their lives have been turned upside down.

However, I have discussed this issue with several Saudi women that have helped me understand the benefits for some women in this society….those being widows, women who need permission to travel who have no male relatives, and divorced women who do not want their ex-husbands to find out for fear of losing their children.

Unfortunately, the only cases that I have actually heard about, in the past few years, are of men who are already married and get ‘caught’ when the misyar lady has a child. The rest of the first family are very upset.

As one adult lady asked her father…..”How would you like it if one of your business friends told you that I was pregnant, and you didn’t even know that I was
married?”
Abu Sinan, on January 28, 2010 at 5:59 pm said:

@Ilayas,

You ask where you have doubted someone’s Islam, yet you say to me “If you are a brother!”

Are you unaware that this comment is doubting that I am a Muslim? Are you so thick that you cannot see this?

Again, your manners here are a disgrace to Islam. I have asked you, and I ask you again, to refrain from your words that go against the Sunnah of the Prophet. If you cannot debate in a better manner, for the sake of Allah, please refrain.

You say half Muslims are open targets, can you give me a verse in The Qur’an that gives you the right to decide who is or isnt a “full” Muslim?

You say I am not Allah, of course that is true. However, YOU are the one here claiming to be able to know who is a “half Muslim” and who isnt.

You say you accept my advice, yet you continue to rant and rave in a manner which is completely shameful from an Islamic manner.

You say “this is war”. Can you give me a verse or hadith which says it is okay to question people’s religion (half Muslim) or similiar proofs that it is okay in Islam to carry yourself in a rude or disrespectful manner for any reason?

If you really accept advice you’ll not post here again until you can do so in a nice, positive and Islamic manner. Think of the manner in which the Prophet would have handled himself. Somehow I missed the hadith quoting him saying he doesnt “give a fart” about what people think.

Not only is such wording unIslamic and against the Sunnah of our Prophet, it is just plain low class.
Abu Sinan, on January 28, 2010 at 6:01 pm said:

@Rose,

Basically you are saying it have changed your mind about misyar because it helps some Saudi women overcome some failings in Saudi society?

Instead of being for a practice which most often causes MORE issues, why not be for changing the failed practices which cause such women to put themselves into these circumstances?

That is the real solution.
Aafke, on January 28, 2010 at 6:12 pm said:

RoseColouredGlasses,
*the benefits for some women in this society….those being widows, women who need permission to travel who have no male relatives, and divorced women who do not want their ex-husbands to find out for fear of losing their children.*

I have also read an interview with a young professional woamn who entered a misyaar marriage with an older man so she could get a job and live in her own appartment.

I see what you mean, and I understand it provides (in theory) a way out of difficulty for Saudi women. But my problem is that women shouldn’t have these problems in the first place. It is unfair and wrong to deny women the freedom to travel when they have to (or want to) Women should need no ”permission” to do anything. Women are sentient beings who can make decisions for themselves.
Women should not be robbed of their children if they marry another man. All these things are against humanity, common sense, justice, you name it these things are wrong.
And it is even more wrong to have women to have top prostitute themselves to get what should be their inalienable right in the first place.

She has to resort to an un-islamic form of marriage with no rights for herself or her children just so she can keep them.

The truth is that in these cases a woman has to buy the right to travel with offering sex. She has to buy the right to keep a job, or to live on her own in her own appartment with offering sexual access to an older man.

In my book that equals prostitution.
Aafke, on January 28, 2010 at 6:15 pm said:

And it is sunnah to marry widows, so where does it come in that a widow has toi settle for an even more unequal form of marreiage?????
Itr’s disgusting!

especially as a sixteen year old girl can be a widow in KSA. Or even younger if she was sold off to an 80 year old pedophile at 8 years old. She could be widow, and damaged goods, by the time she is nine!
Ilyas, on January 28, 2010 at 8:54 pm said:

Bismi-lah. Dear brother Abu Sinan. Read the post again. I accept your post if you’re a sincere muslim. You don’t sound like one and that’s my judgement to make. You sound like one of those people that has read about Islam and trys to use it against muslims. Why are you so interested in arguing with me if you’re a sincere muslim brother? Whatever!
Asfke, what do you want? Why don’t you look at your world which has as many problems and more and make some analysis of it? Are you going to be able to change Islamic Law? Why exactly do you care so much? What’s your point? Get to it! Go get a puppy.
Your point is Islam is inferior. Look at all the corruption and hypocrisy in it. What’s your other point? Go help the child prostitutes in Asia that are held against their will if you just need a cause. In my book that equals prostitution. Yeah in your book! Go get a puppy. Go to American and save women there. They have prostitutes that walk the street. You could probably do alot of good there. Go!
Abu Sinan, on January 28, 2010 at 9:08 pm said:

@Ilyas,

I dont sound like a sincere Muslim because I dont agree with your views? You are aware that there are many different schools of thought in Islam and that many of them have very different ideas right? So you as saying that for someone to be a “sincere” or “full” Muslim they must agree with you?

You are taking upon yourself the role of God here. You have no right, no standing, to judge other Muslims and their deen. You come here thinking you have the right to lecture others on Islam but your actions and your words show you have very little knowledge of Islam, The Qur’an or the Sunnah of the Prophet.

I am interesting in correcting the false image you are giving of Islam here. You nature is VERY combative, you are attacking not only non Muslims, but other Muslims as well.

Your adab (manners) is not those of a Muslim. I am starting to wonder if you are just here purposely trying to give Islam and Muslims a bad name.

Again, my advice to you is to stop the debate if you cannot do so in a decent manner. You have overstepped the decency line about 10 posts ago.
Ilyas, on January 28, 2010 at 9:15 pm said:

Bismi-lah. Dear Brother Abu Sinan, you may have a point; but there are all types in the community. And they are needed. The Prophet is the perfect human. I’m not. And I still don’t give a fart about people that are hell bent on disparaging Islam in whatever guise. Even if they pretend to be muslim. Umar ibn Al Khattab RA was very coarse in manners and the Prophet said if there were to be a Prophet after me he would be like Umar RA. We need sweet types like you at times. Then we need types that arent so sweet for the others that arent so sweet. I already gave you the verse from Qu’ran that says be HARSH with the unbelievers and hypocrites. To judge someone as a hypocrite I do have to use judgement and there are signs left in the hadiths on what to look for. I don’t care if all the scholars agree or disagree with misyar. That’s not my point dear brother.(Is that sweet enough for you). My point is I’m tired of non-muslims giving their critique of Islamic affairs like they have a say or we’re going to follow them in our religion. I didn’t ask for their opinion and don’t give a fart. When people use respectful and peaceful language I’ll use respectful and peaceful language. When people call muslimahs prostitutes I will not have respect for that creature or be sweet. You do that while they drop 500 pound bombs through your roof if you want. I’m not you and I don’t have to be you. Mumtahana. Read! By the way there’s a whole Sura of Quran called Hypocrites. Read it! You think the companions of the Prophet SAWS would put up with all this rubbish coming from these people? The Prophet SAWS had people killed just for satirizing him in poems. Yes, he was the perfect human and had the best manners, but for people that had no manners they got the lights turned out!
Ilyas, on January 28, 2010 at 9:18 pm said:

Bismi-lah Is that what I said? Or is that what you said?
Ilyas, on January 28, 2010 at 9:25 pm said:

Bismi-lah. Yes I’m very combative. And my advise to you is don’t tell me what to do. Tell yourself what to do. If you’re the perfect muslim example than bravo for you. I applaud you. Carrying on! Why aren’t you as interested in all those so-called women on here calling muslim women prostitutes? Doesn’t matter? But me, I interest you. Milkshake! If I dealing with human beings I act human. When I’m dealing with vicious enemies they should not see kindness from you. I believe in Allah swt and his messenger. Let’s get it on and see what happens!
Abu Sinan, on January 28, 2010 at 9:37 pm said:

You claim to be a Muslim Ilayas, yet you reject the Sunnah by being unwilling to act as the prophet did. I am begining to suspect you are not here to defend Islam, rather the opposite.

It would be hard, even if one tried, to give a worse example of Islam here. I suspect that is your intention.

May God have mercy on you for making Islam look so bad with your poor behavior and manners.
Aafke, on January 28, 2010 at 10:26 pm said:

Bishmallah Abu Sinan is right, Ilyas seems to be wanting to give negative dawah!
Ilyas, Abu Sinan would be able to bring people into Islam, you are the reason people shouldn’t!
Ilyas, on January 29, 2010 at 5:48 pm said:

Bismi-lah. Aafke, has he brought you to Al-Islam? Yes, may Allah swt have mercy on me. Abu Sinan, do you have a problem using Allah’s holy name? Peace to those that want peace. One correction Aafke, Abu Sinan can’t bring anyone to Islam, ONLY Allah swt can give you faith. You can’t buy it or steal it, or get it from Abu Sinan cause he doesn’t possess it except as a favor to him. You can sincere repent and Allah swt accepts all. Even you!
MoQ, on January 29, 2010 at 7:32 pm said:

@Aafke, For a moment, I thought your conversion was imminent. That was until llyas showed up. Now you have to start all over Alhumdullah!!
THE HOLY SINNER, on February 1, 2010 at 12:27 pm said:

He came, he saw, he let the shit hit the fan when he was all alone in the room. Mr. Ilyas, ladies and gentlemen, decides to take everyone headon with a simple sadistic decree claiming to be the only defender of the religion. Basically, what he is trying to do, is to defend a tribal nonsensical tradition of having as many wives as possible before the heart stops beating. And then he exhibits the nerve of passing on fatwas of “half-muslims”. Seems like you have had a little too much of dajjaj mandi Ilyas.

You start off by bad mouthing people, christians essentially, because in your opinion they do not understand your religion and make fun of it. I do not see your opinions that you are trying to shove down everyone’s throats and failing miserably, any different than what you accuse them of.

Now first, be tolerent to people who do not share your belief. Although I doubt yours. As far as I am concerned, you and I do not possess the knowledge to discuss the Ummahat-ul-Momineen (May God be pleased with all of them). And then if you must, understand that the Prophet (PBUH) married with not just the intent to set an example of having more than one wife, but also because he was spreading Islam, with peace, as it is the religion of peace. The wives of the Prophet (PBUH), hailed from the families of tribal heads and that gave strength to the religion and to the efforts of spreading the religion without violence, which has always been the last resort in the religion.

Nowhere does the religion teach us to enslave the women to an extent that you can play havoc with their status in the society. I have spoken earlier on in favour of Misyar, only if it is followed in its true letter and spirit and NOT for a distorted means to an end.

My nick, last but not the least, has nothing to do with water and oil in the application that you might have understood. And I come from a very tolerent society, where women enjoy a lot of freedom of living.
Mohammed Dilshan, on February 1, 2010 at 1:26 pm said:

Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmathullaahi wa barakaathuhuh,

This actually helps some brothers and sisters save their Deen by marrying in Misyar. There are several situations where a marriage will be difficult to be established due to financial, legal issues and the marriage is in need for the sister to establish her deen and to protect her eeman.

There is always khair if Allah has permitted it. After all its not forced marriage, it agreed marriage.

Fire can be used for good as well as bad…. It matters who uses it….. For that reason its silly to ban Fire.

Wassalaam

Abu Abdillaah Dilshan as saylaani
Ilyas, on February 3, 2010 at 9:29 am said:

Bismi-lah. Mr. Holy whatever. When did I claim to be the only defender of the religion? Again I ask you, are you a muslim or non-muslim? What kind of name is Holy Sinner for a muslim? You- as we all are-are a sinner, but where exactly is the holiness in that? Is sarcasism intended here? Why are you using profanity if you’re a muslim? The Prophet SAWS said that those that curse in time will be entitled also to Allah’s curse. Leave that language and join jihadul-akbar against yourself! For the record I’m not trying to shove anything down anyones throat. You sound like one of those so-called muslims that actually hate Islam and thinks(ignorantly)that the West’s way is better! Joke! I despise so-called muslims that fit that description. If you don’t I’m not talking to you. So for you any ideas about Islam is shoving it down your throat. If you don’t like it leave it. Al-Islam it too dignified to beg anyone to be a part of it. It’s a favor to mankind. If they don’t realize that it’s unfortunately their lost. That is my point. I’m tired of being mis-interpreted and mis-understood so I’ll make it clear for you. I’m not apologizing to anyone because I’m a muslim and I’m not ashamed of it or intimidated by people that think they’re too smart by one half. If people come with sincerity and want to understand Allah’s blessings and favor on them. If they’re just looking for something crooked in the religion they can go to hell. Allah swt describes this type of person in the Qu’ran and I’m not to be sweet to someone who has perverted ideas about the ALL MIGHTY! Got my point! I will insult those that insult Al-Islam and muslims. If you don’t like it too bad! You be sweet to them. Salaams
Ilyas, on February 3, 2010 at 2:16 pm said:

Bismi-lah. Moq, it’s al-hamdu-li-lah. Keep saying this, you will be blessed. Unless of course you’re one of those types that is saying it sarcastically!?
Muhammad Nadeem, on September 26, 2010 at 7:11 pm said:

ASSLAM-O-ALYKUM
I am to late but to good for you.
summery of hadith
Our Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him ) said” If you had a doubt on any new contradictory ruling of islam Juat Leave it

SO, BROTHERS & SISTERS SAFE WAY IS JUST LEAVE IT”
ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST
syed qameruzzaman, on December 20, 2010 at 10:32 am said:

B NAME OF ALLAH
AS IN MY KNOWLEG ITS SAME AS MUTAA
THAT IS IN FIQAH JAFAREYA OR U CAN SAY IN SHEYA FIQ IS ALREADY THERE
BUT IN FIQA HANFEE SAY ITS NOT GOOD
WALLAH AALAM
syed qameruzzaman, on December 20, 2010 at 10:33 am said:

B NAME OF ALLAH
AS IN MY KNOWLEG ITS SAME AS MUTAA
THAT IS IN FIQAH JAFAREYA OR U CAN SAY IN SHEYA FIQ IS ALREADY THERE
BUT IN FIQA HANFEE SAY ITS NOT GOOD
WALLAH AALAM
Saudi Arabia: Why Too Many Marriages End in Divorce « American Bedu, on January 10, 2011 at 3:03 am said:

[…] a divorced woman. Some Saudi women have elected to become a second or third wife or enter into a misyar marriage to get rid of the stigma of being a divorcee whom society looks upon with […]
Shad, on April 17, 2011 at 7:49 pm said:

Hii
I’m muslim living and growed up in Australia
now I’m relly against mutta and misyaar marrige because of my upbringing nd culture and the way I think

now the point nottice is look mutta is tottly wrong and misyaar marige is not ok but for some few idiots it might me women and men

We have to understand man and women do have personal needs
and if a widow or some man fits in that sitation good for them it’s a way out of zinna I guss

I live in the west went school collage at work all the women I kno 90 percent have slept with different people god knows how many and married ppl cheat on there wifes… We all watch Jerry springer and judge Judy I’m not saying every body but a lot do same in Islam there’s a better way I guss do that and at lest the women is married not a hoe and has not all some rights …….

I’m very sorry if anything I said hurted or made em feel bad
this is how I think and typed wat I thouht was right

Remember good and bad people are every where every religion every community ever city and town …… And a good person will never choose this type of misyaar marriage I belive

thank you baiii
suyn, on July 27, 2011 at 10:32 pm said:

i am interested myser marriage ,living in riyadh

[email protected]
Australian Atheist, on July 31, 2011 at 3:52 pm said:

I have read these comments with great interest and I am appalled to see how women and children are treated as chattel in Islamic countries.

To give you some background of myself, I am an atheist of European origin and have lived in Australia for more than 40 years. I had my first son at the age of 19 as a single mother – ironically enough the father was muslim. My son is now 45 years old, an atheist as myself and a wonderful father to his children. In 1971 I married an Englishman and we had 2 daughters. During the time of this marriage I became heavily involved in the women’s rights movement and I had a full-time job throughout my marriage. When the marriage finally ended in 1981 I bought my first house for the children and myself. In 1990 I had another son and married the father, an African-American in 1991. This marriage ended in 1993. Since then I have concentrated on raising my youngest son, working (I’m an accountant) and creating wealth.

So here are my views:

Religion – I don’t believe in a higher being. I consider the 3 mainstream religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam, to be invented by men for men. All three religions are based on patriarchial societies that oppress females. As a woman, I find this to be unacceptable.

Marriage – I don’t believe in marriage. Similar to religion, it is an institution created by males to keep women subservient. In a matriarchial society, marriage has little to no relevance as there is no concept of promiscuity, a woman may choose one or multiple partners.

Promiscuity – as mentioned above, it is not a concept that exists in matriarchial societies where the children are identified by their mothers and where women may have as many partners as they desire. Let us not forget, it is the female principle that is the most important factor when it comes to the welfare of children.

Wealth – In Western countries women do not only have the right to take up employment, but have the right to execute financial transactions and to build wealth in their own name. Over the past twenty years, as a single mother raising my youngest son, I have accumulated considerable investments in the stockmarket and real estate. So who needs a man for economic support?

Sexual Orientation – perfectly legal in the Western world. I don’t particularly want to see men kissing men or women kissing women, but if that is what turns them on, who am I to tell them it’s wrong.

In closing, there have been quite a few comments condemning our Western lifestyle. All I have to say is that you are welcome if you are prepared to adapt to the Western lifestyle. If you can’t or are unwilling, there are plenty of Islamic countries in the world where you should be welcome.
Qasim, on October 1, 2011 at 9:44 pm said:

i am looking for contract marriage , living in Buraidah contact on [email protected]
Zaheer Husain Khan, on October 2, 2011 at 5:37 pm said:

Islam is not a piecemeal arrangement It has rules and regulations which have to be followed or you quit . One cannot pick and choose at his or her own conveniance . Marital alliance is a matter of Shariah Nilah has established rules all of which should be fufilled The do’s and dont’s have been well defined in shariyah .Next alternative is Nikah e Mutah . It is immaterial whether shia still consider is jaez and allowed and the sunni’s consider is abrogated and haram . The factual position is that the holy book allows it , Rasool (saaws) recommended it in certain conditions and it was never divinely abrogated It was in practice during the Rasool’s Time and even afterwards then Omar on his own put a ban on it . No doubt he was a rular , Many claimed he was appointed but no one claim he was divinely appointed and had the authority to make amends in the ahkam e shariyah after the takmeel e deen. which prevents omar to make any additions or alterations in the rules of shariyah , otherwise the action becomes a bida’a which is totally haram in Islam . So the position is this that both nikah and mutah, if all the rules and regulations are followed is both permissable, though the actual performance of mutah in sunnies is nil because of prohibition and is also non existant in shia because it is very impractical . I in my 75 years , well travelled and because of my media profession and teaching came across a large section of both sunnis and shias, in many part of the world but yet to know any one who had a mutah marriage . .As far as Misyar, this I can say with confidence that its validity has no existance either in Qora’an or any hadees even the most of the zaeef , so naturally as per the Islamic shariya, it is null and void , haram and an ugly innovation to illegitimately satisfy the batial passion and can be said an alternative to prostitution though in a manner that could be felt less shameful. I am hearing anther innovation, do not remember the name similler to misyar and insidently more in practice in the saudi elite families who take this ruite to satiate their sexual urge where ever they go because they have money to buy the facility and they could get it sanctified by thier ever ready clerics who will immediately issue a fatwah of validity at the spin of a few coins, for them God may go to hell, other wise also on a very well known hadees their God will put one of His massive leg in the wast empty space of Jhannum when it complains of its too much emptiness (abu horairah: Saheeh Bokhari).
Saudi Arabia: Does a Misyar Wife Have Any Rights? « American Bedu, on March 28, 2012 at 3:00 am said:

[…] misyar marriage is an agreement that a couple will marry but the wife releases the husband from any rights of […]
engineeer, on October 15, 2012 at 9:39 am said:

well the concept behind is good and if it is according to islam no harm///m ready here in ksa.
Zaheer Husain Khan (@mzhkhan), on October 16, 2012 at 11:46 am said:

It is an innovation and every innovation in ahkam e deen is HARAM
It has no precedent , no mention in Qora’an and never practiced
by anyone during the life of Mohammad (saaws) therefore can in no
case be considered as allowed and Jaez . It is just like prostitution .
There are many ways of exploiting women this is the most common
among WAHABIS and no other muslim community , Sunni , Shia , or
others either endorse it or practice it .
naveed akhtar, on January 26, 2013 at 3:13 am said:

this is a contract marriage but it is an innovation . if all sheikh,s are agreed on this then there is no objection to apply in practically because they have a good knowledge about the fiqah the other body don,t have right to apply or leave in this matter. according to time by time changes need in every field of life. i think if government allow it nobody have to deny regarding this issue.
Omar, on June 29, 2013 at 6:31 pm said:

@ilyah. We all understand your frustration. This Aafke and HolySinner guy are really annoying. But the Prophet PBUH dealt with all sorts of people. There is a lot to learn from his Sunnah.
Aafke-Art, on June 30, 2013 at 1:24 am said:

You’re a bit late to the party.
This blog post is five years old!!!!!
And your invisible skydaddy has been slacking it a bit don’t you think? I am still doing very well after all this time putting down this form of prostitution, nothing has happened at all.
Except good stuff.
I am not worried at all.
zaheerhusain, on July 2, 2013 at 4:05 am said:

Misyar has no mention ,no sanction in Islam . Rasool e Kareem never allowed it, it was never practiced during his life time , so clearly it is an innovation a bida’a and a very grave sin for as you say in five years time this prostitution must have resulted in thousands of pregnancies and thousands bastards are growing besides the products of earlier liasions as this abnoxious practice is going on in SAudia and some of their allied countries for around a century since the advent of Abdul Wahab .
Younis, on July 3, 2013 at 7:53 am said:

misyarr is Mut’tah, just the name has been changed. It was practiced in our Prophet Muhammad’s P.B.U.H time. Moreover there is a verse of Holy Quran regarding it, tranlation with reference is as under:

[Forbidden to you] are married woman, except what your right hand possesses. This Allah has written for you, and all other women besides these are permitted to you, so that you may seek them out with your wealth, seeking chastity and not fornication. So when you have contracted temporary marriage [istimt’atum] with them, then give them their words. There is no sin on you for whatever you agree to after this. Indeed, Allah is Knowing, Wise.
Al-Qur’an, Surah An-Nisa, Ayah 24

There is a proof of hadees as well that sahaba also performed mut’tah (misyarr)
reference and translation is as under:

1. “Sabra al-Juhanni reported on the authority of his father that while he was with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) he said: 0 people, I had permitted you to contract temporary marriage with women…”
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3255

2.Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Urwa ibn az-Zubayr that Khawla ibn Hakim came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, ”Rabia ibn Umayya made a temporary marriage with a woman and she…”
Muwatta Imam Malik, Book 28, Number 28.18.42

3.Narrated ‘Abdullah Ibn Masud: We used to participate in the holy battles led by Allah’s Apostle and we had nothing (no wives) with us. So we said, “Shall we get ourselves castrated (for fear of making sin)?” He forbade us (to castrate ourselves) and then allowed us to marry women with a temporary contract (Mut’ah) and recited to us: ‘O you who believe! Make not unlawful the good things, which Allah has made lawful for you, but commit no transgression.’ (5.87)
Sahih al Bukhari Volume 7 tradition 13a

So its not an innovation (biddah) at all.
zaheerhusain, on July 4, 2013 at 9:32 am said:

THe verse is for mutah not for misyar , it is bidda’a, it is prostitugtion and haraam , off springs if any are illegitimate ( harami in urdu) .
Only Nikah was the proper hukm, mutah was highly conditional but allowed in deen , even asmah binte abu bakr did mutah and she had a
son from that liason . Only during Omar bin Khttab rule it was prohibited that of course has no religious signifacance because he had no authority to amend in the ahkam e shariyah .His action of prohibiting mutah waas a bidda’a .
UMMAH should not be mislead by absurd innovations .
asm, on August 22, 2013 at 4:10 am said:

All those who are in favor of Misyar.. Will they allow their daughters or sister’s to go for it..fine. I DO NOT. Sanctity of marriage is important to me. I do not want to do zina anythingd cover it up with giving reasons and excuses. Period.
zaheerhusain, on September 4, 2013 at 4:18 pm said:

DO MISYAR OR DO URFI OR JUST GO TO POOR COUNTRY SLUM AREAS AND MARRY 6-9 YEARS OLD . IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU ARE 60-70 YEAR OLD . THIS IS WHAT YAHOODI -WAHABI COME TO HYDERABAD AND DO , THEY HAVE MONEY , AHKAM E SHARIYAH MEANS NOTHING FOR THEM , THEY MAKE THEIR OWN.

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