Because the old debate page became too long we have created a new Debate page.

This page is for discussions which are too far off topic on specific articles. The same blog rules apply as for the rest of the blog,  but the debates can become heated, enjoy yourselves, knock yourselves out, give your best arguments.

18 Responses

  1. Cool

  2. Thank you Aafke and the “Other Moderator!! Appreciate it ….

  3. @Sarah,
    (con’t from old debate page)
    What I said about my mother was and is true. There were still some parts of the world that would have been considered undeveloped at the time she was a child. I guess the best way to put it was that she spent some of of her formative years during childhood in that environment and some in Western society. It helped her to be less biased towards a given culture and to choose the best of both cultures, so to speak, when choosing how to raise her own child(ren). I didn’t lie, but you are welcome to believe what you want.

    I don’t fear death, but I do believe in an afterlife based on experiences of mine. If you want to be an atheist, I don’t have a problem with that. However, I am not one. In this we can agree to disagree. 🙂

  4. StrangeOne,
    Thanks for the clarification. I didn’t say that you lied. I thought that maybe I misunderstood something. I have no reason to doubt you. And I do agree with you.

  5. TE,

    You said:
    “In your case, you seem to believe people’s word when they try to reverse engineer a conspiracy to demonize a movement whose “consequences” they believe to have been unfavorable.”

    Your use of the word “unfavorable” carries the message that you do agree with me that it is unfavorable. Is that so? I do not believe in people’s word but I do a lot of research of my own and come to my conclusions based on my own belief system. I cannot believe in people’s words but rather I go for the Word of my Creator in which there is no doubt. It is in my study of Islamic eschatology, that I came to see things clearer. The current world can only be understood through this study.

    I get the feeling again and again that you are only touching the top surface and cite the obvious. But, sis, things are not always as they seem. Why did they fight for women’s rights? The ball was set rolling by someone at some point – yes it doesn’t matter who but what does matter is that it is was set. How can you say that women’s liberation would have happened any way. There is no way of saying that but there is enough reasons to believe that it was an agenda (women’s lib is only a part of it).

    TE, you are a Muslim, please do read Surah Baqarah with meaning and ponder of its meanings. It explains the first great deception. In sha Allah you will come to a greater understanding.

    As I said before women are not equal. They compliment each other. If they were meant to be equal, why the differences then? Each have a role to play in the society. Islam has already set these roles. So there is no need for man to change them and make them equal. They are equal in spirituality, yes.

    You said “But the truth is far more complicated than this”. What is this truth? And what is the complication from your view?

    I applaud you for your strength to come out of the dark hole you were in and enter the light. You should see yourself as the lucky few. Your are the bright green leaf on a drying tree. 🙂 You came out unscathed because you have a good heart.

    I clearly do see the target in the collapse of the society. It is clear as day light. The deception continues. People are being played. But what is it that I am missing, TE? Sandy talked about being scared. I am not scared but I am truly concerned for those who are unaware that they are being played, just as Aafke is playing you here. Because you see things as they are, you are missing the undertones – something which Omar recognized right away. (Sorry, Aafke but have to say it).

    I don’t think I can say more on this topic than I already have.

    Thanks for the enjoyable discussion.

  6. Sarah,

    First and foremost, I think our friend Omar recognizes very little. Secondly, it is nice of you to offer me a scapegoat, but I assure you I have felt this way long before I ran into Aafke.

    Anyway, I think the problem here is that you continue to present me with your opinion or circumstantial matters, and, as I’ve said, opinions, beliefs, and circumstantial evidence is not proof. And, when there are flaws in your assumptions (and, indeed, there are flaws, as there are many decent people who were raised in areas with “women’s liberation,” and, let me tell you, I believe that some of the most rude and inconsiderate and, frankly, classless people on Earth (certainly not all of them by any stretch, of course) live and were raised in Saudi Arabia, a place with no women’s liberation at all. Some of the casual cruelties and deficiencies of character that you can find in KSA should be enough to put you back to the drawing board to re-examine your principles.

    But, I understand now that it will not. Respectfully, there are some ways in which you debate that I hope you will consider, and I mean these criticisms without any hostility (honestly): the only arguments you present to me is that “it looks like it,” and then you support it with accusations that we are being misled, lied to, brainwashed, missing something, only scratching the surface, all without taking the time to provide any proof to illuminate the situation for us or bring us some strong evidence from “deeper” depths. I told you early on that I once believed the conspiracy theory. I got used to and accepted this concept before, and existed within this world quite well and without any fear. But, even after I indicated this, you still assumed me to be someone whose heart was just too weak to take the idea of such a chaotic and evil world, even though I made it clear that I had lived there once and only left when I found that the evidence that had placed me there was insubstantial. Does this tell you anything about how you judge people’s ability to come to a different intellectual decision than yours? It is not good for you or for others to dismiss and patronize people with a different view in order to trivialize their conclusions without the need for evidence. No ideas on either side of a debate will be exchanged under these judgmental conditions.

    You ask my opinion about the unfavorable thing. I do think certain things about the modern age are unfavorable. I am, in a lot of ways, worried about kids these days (I feel sixty years older writing that). But I have a suspicion that the average person who denounces a movement that sought to give women rights to work and be considered of equal value regardless of different characteristics-things that Islam gives us, after all-is not really concerned about the children, and concern themselves more with some aspects that I may not consider unfavorable personally.

    You say that you can’t think of anything else to say on the matter, and I understand. If you ever come across proof or substantial evidence (and, again, for clarification, proof is something objective and true that is not shaped by our beliefs, ideologies, suspicions, et cetera-proof is universal and undeniable. Substantial evidence is evidence that is still relatively devoid of our beliefs and objectively hard to argue against), I would be more than interested in giving it proper consideration.

    I have no qualms whatsoever with considering another point of view. I just need for there to be proof and evidence. Not someone saying, “it’s so obvious because it looks like it,” and trying to pass their opinions as divine truth. I do not mean to be insulting, but I hope you understand why I still remain unconvinced. If your statements are the obvious and clear truth, I think it is fair for me to demand proof or evidence that is not circumstantial and founded by opinion before I buy into what you say. If this is the definite truth, you should have a lot of it on hand. I suppose you could dismiss it, as you have, as goodness or weakness of character, or an intellectual defect, but I would much prefer that, if some day you stumble across something you believe to be real proof (as defined in the dictionary) or strong, objective evidence, you come back and give me a good reason to change my mind. I will happily listen, and I am ready, if you give me a compelling argument, to dust off my tinfoil cap and jump back into the world I imagined I lived in around 2003-2005.

    Anyway, again, I realize that your intentions are good and noble, and I thank you for it, and for indulging me with this debate. I hope your good intentions will be rewarded.


  7. TE, I see you haven’t noticed I was playing you… I’m that good… 😉
    Ok, okeeee… I admit it. I am an agent for a secret society, funded by the Creator of All, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who has been running this planet since He created it. My task is to play everybody on this blog and convert them into pirates. This btw will stop global warming. The more pirates there are the less global warming. This is also the reason I am for women’s liberation, because only a free woman can become a pirate. Otherwise you’re just a wench. Now we need wenches, so Sarah can become a wench, but I think it’s much more fun to become a pirate, and my personal goal is to become pirate captain, and then command a whole fleet of pirate ships.
    Avast me harties!

  8. Any comments on this saudi princess in American prison??? Atleast now i hope some justice is done, if this had happened in Saudi the maid would have disappeared by now…

    Perhaps a post on this news about Saudi Princesses landing in trouble in west would be a good idea!!!

  9. Are any of the moderators interested in writing about the 20,000+ Indian workers in Saudi Arabia that are lining up to go back to India? I read in an article that there were an estimated 1.5 million Indian workers in Saudi Arabia, but not sure how accurate that figure is.

    Then there’s also info on the world’s supposedly largest date market as well as the article about how some of the members of Jeddah’s Chamber of Commerce and Industry may have bought votes.

  10. hi there used to be section on AB about books and book reviews. It seems it has disappeared or it is some other place that I can’t locate.

    Thx for your help!!!

  11. It is times like this that I miss Carol more than ever…..

    I am sure that she would have a few words about the Grand Muffin, Sheikh Abdulaziz al-Sheikh , and his statement about the 200+ Nigerian girls kidnapped by the Boko Haram. Not only that, she would provide perhaps the only honest discussion of the issue (outside of the so-called ‘Islamophobic sites’) and its relationship to Islamic doctrine.

    The Sheik’s statement that “These groups are not on the right path because Islam is against kidnapping, killing and aggression,” he said. “Marrying kidnapped girls is not permitted.” is at odds with the Quran and hadith, and he knows it. Once again, Muslims everywhere put the idea of Islam above the reality of little girls’ pain and suffering. Shame.

    Carol would have allowed discussion of this, in her own gentle and non-abusive way.

  12. Well said, kactuz!

  13. Thank you, Cat. I also appreciate your concerns as expressed on your site about this horrible issue. Certainly the millions of people, like yourself and the First Lady, deserve gratitude for wanting a happy end to this tragedy.

    On the other hand, the old grouchy pessimist in me says that hashtags are not enough. #BringBackOurGirls is long on wishes and good intentions and short on results. Worse yet, I see Muslims, good sincere Muslims, expressing outrage, but I know that outrage is also not enough. There is something within Islam that contributes to these things, and all the denial in the world will not solve it. Any reading of the Quran and hadith, especially the hadith, will put this ‘kidnapping’ in a very different light, one that hashtags and hopes are powerless against unless supported by truth and courage.

  14. I agree it takes a lot more than a hashtag to stop this type human abuse. What I don’t understand is why more Muslims don’t speak out and state it exactly as you have. The Quran and Hadith give them all the ammunition they need to speak out. If we would speak out, perhaps more people would understand Islam is not what these thugs purport it to be nor everything Al Quaida says either. Christianity went through a similar thing centuries ago but finally changed their direction. If you want to bring more people under the tent of Islam, you have to speak out! And strongly.

  15. The problem is that the Quran and Hadith do not really give them ammunition to speak out, much to the contrary. The Quranic verse most cited is 4:19 but it is actually about dowry and already married wives. They forget about 4:24-25 which is allows taking captive girls (those which your right hand possesses). The hadith are much worse. What do you think the raids that Mohammed conducted were all about? Delivering flowers? There are many stories in the hadith, all of them, about attacking villages and taking slaves, and yes, about rape of captives. For obvious reasons Muslims prefer not to talk about these – hey, will quote a ‘nice’ story in one verse and ignore a ‘bad’ one across the page. BTW, the hadith are online and easily available, or if you prefer, here is a list of the expeditions

  16. It has been since Carol’s passing away that i wrote here. I see it is only fit to share in her blog the interest the Egyptian press is taking in her book. It is in Arabic ofcourse but the photos say it all.
    Best wishes

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