Saudi women fight abuse

Khaled Almaeena wrote this interesting article in the Saudi gazette:

The “Himaya” organization, which was established to protect abused women, recently held a course for 20 women on how to package gifts and accessories. The women who ranged from 20 to 45 years of age and came from different backgrounds underwent a four-day training course.
Himaya, which caters to over 50 families, is prominent for focusing on abuse, protecting the victims and helping them through rehab programs.
This type of news would not have been published a decade or two ago. It was taboo to focus on such issues, and, if you did, there would be heavy criticism from the “paragons of virtue”.

“No, our society is not like that of the West!” a man claimed after hearing about the plight of women suffering at the hands of their monstrous husbands. In those days, at every level there was denial of any wrongdoing. However, women could not take it any longer. They enlisted the help of their own gender in the media who brought to light horrific cases of the abuse of women and children. This news spread throughout the media, and talk shows across the Gulf focused on the issue.
People asked for legislation to safeguard the rights of women, provide them with security and safety and help them carry on with their lives.

It is difficult to protect women’s rights in society where the rulers, the culture, the police and the religious clergy are all firmly against women’s rights. For example, a few years ago a judge ruled that it is ok for men to slap their wives if they spend too much:

Arab News, a Saudi English-language daily newspaper based in Riyadh, reported that Judge Hamad Al-Razine said that “if a person gives SR 1,200 [$320] to his wife and she spends 900 riyals [$240] to purchase an abaya [the black cover that women in Saudi Arabia must wear] from a brand shop and if her husband slaps her on the face as a reaction to her action, she deserves that punishment.”

 When you do a google search a lot of shocking reports turn up, though, with the secrecy, and lack of information one cannot but wonder if they are correct.

As many as 95 percent of women in Riyadh have been subjected to a form of physical or emotional abuse from within their family, according to a new survey.

The survey – which constituted of 80 women being interviewed about their family life – revealed that 75 percent have been abused both psychologically and verbally.
Another 25 percent said they had been sexually abused by a family member, reported the Saudi Gazette.
Several of the women, according to an Al-Riyadh report, said their salaries were withheld from them by their families and they were prevented from getting married. Some said their families did not want them to get married so they would not have to share their salaries with anyone else but the family, the paper said.

This is what the Human Rights Watch Report 2012 has to say about the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia:

Saudi Arabia responded with unflinching repression to demands by citizens for greater democracy in the wake of the pro-democracy Arab Spring movements. King Abdullah bin Abd al-‘Aziz Al Saud announced economic benefits worth over US$130 billion, but authorities continued to jail Saudis for peaceful dissent. New laws introduced or proposed in 2011 criminalize the exercise of basic human rights such as freedom of expression, assembly, and association.

Women’s and Girls’ Rights

The Saudi guardianship system continues to treat women as minors. Under this discriminatory system, girls and women of all ages are forbidden from traveling, studying, or working without permission from their male guardians. In 2009 the Ministry of Commerce, though not other ministries, stopped requiring women to conduct ministerial business through a male representative.

On September 25 King Abdullah announced that women will be able to vote in municipal elections in 2015. The government continued to exclude women as voters or candidates in the September 2011 municipal elections, despite a two-year delay to allow for logistical preparations to include women. In March 2011 women activists launched the Baladi (My Country) campaign in protest, trying—unsuccessfully—to register to vote. In the first municipal elections in 2005, authorities said that election workers could not verify a woman’s identity since many did not have identity cards. However, the Interior Ministry began issuing identity cards to women over 22 years old in 2000. The king also promised to appoint women as full members of the Shura Council.

On May 22, Saudi authorities arrested Manal al-Sharif after she defied the kingdom’s de facto ban on women driving. Al-Sharif appeared in a video showing herself behind the wheel. Prosecutors charged her with “tarnishing the kingdom’s reputation abroad” and “stirring up public opinion,” according to Saudi press reports. On May 30, Khobar police released al-Sharif from prison after she appealed to King Abdullah.

On June 17 around 40 women with international drivers’ licenses participated in a “women2drive” campaign. No law bars women from driving, but senior government clerics have ruled against the practice. Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world to prohibit women from driving.

In view of all this opposition it is remarkable that there are still Saudi men and women ready and willing and risking much, to fight for women rights.

Read more:

Saudi Gazette

CNN

Human rights Watch

AA

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208 Responses

  1. Baby steps. Those of us in Canada and the USA must remember that it wasn’t all that long ago when husbands could abuse and hit their wives and children without prosecution. It was in my lifetime for sure.

  2. Prophet of Islam (s) stopped the burying of girl child alive.
    He used to tolerate many abuses from some of his wife .
    He used to get up not only out of his love to his loving daughter
    out of respect to the women folk.A muslim if he is one has to respect
    his women folk , Those 95% of women who are abused by their
    husbands can they claim to be muslims . Saudis have no respect
    for their women . They are hardly muslim.

  3. Zaheer,

    WTF are ya talking about? Wife beating/abuse is not just limited to Saudi Arabia. It is prevalent throughoout the muslim world and sanctioned by Mohammed/Koran itself.

    You say “they (saudis) are hardly muslim”. One can safely extend your same statement to the rest of the umma!

  4. Mistreatment of women is endemic throughout the Muslim world. And yes, in other parts of the world as well, it’s just that it’s 50 times worse in Islamic countries. And this is based in the Quran and hadith. A religion which systematically puts women as a kind of subhumans, with lesser rights, makes out they have lesser understanding, less rights in sharia etc. etc. This is the result.
    And i don’t need anymore proof that the Quran is made up by some backwards human males than this obviously wrong assertion that women are ”deficient”, ”less intelligent” ”impure” etc. It amazes me that there are still people and especially women in the modern world who actually support this crap!

    Sorry for the rant but I am sick of all these stupid religions made up by some primitive barbarians, and the stupidity of modern humans to have this need for some invisible sky daddy to order them around and can’t use their minds and support this bronze age barbarism.

  5. Whether husbands could abuse and beat their wives in north america in the distant past is irrelevant. What’s more relevant is what is happening NOW and WHERE and not THEN.

    The media (both western and non-western) is full of stories every day about wife beatings in saudi and other muslim countries and that it has, as Aafke pointed out, reached endemic proportions. For example, a recent US State Department report on human rights in islamic countries had this to say:

    “Wife beating is technically grounds for divorce, but the husband may seek to demonstrate that he has authority from the Koran and Sharia to correct an irreligious or disobedient wife by striking her”.

    So very clearly verse 4:34, which because it is in “The Koran”, has to be part of Sharia law, does influence some modern Muslim men to hit their wives. Which in turn explains why the Islamic Fiqh Academy, a group of Islamic scholars that was created by the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC – alliance of 57 muslim countries) refused to criticize wife beatings in its of course Sharia compliant fatwa on domestic violence:

    “The Fatwa establishes a definition of “Domestic Violence”, which provides that violence by one family member against another contravenes the objectives of Sharia law. Some critics have noted that the definition does not prohibit a man from raping his wife and upholds the right of a husband to beat his wife, so long as the beating conforms with Sharia law ….

    …. The provisions of the Fatwa also implicitly uphold other aspects of Sharia law that are contrary to women’s rights, such as requiring a woman to repay her bride-price if she divorces her husband for excessive beatings.”

    Note that the OIC fatwa says that women, who divorce their husbands because of “excessive beatings”, are required to repay the dowry price at which they were sold to their husbands. Go figure ….

    You can read that fatwa at the bottom of this OIC website: http://www.oic-info.org/?q=womens-rights

  6. ‘Prosecutors charged her with “tarnishing the kingdom’s reputation abroad” ‘ — ha! Yeah, I had such a great opinion of KSA before Manal did that.

    Zaheer, then why are Saudis born Muslim and have no choice to be anything but Muslims or else?

  7. Y’know, apparently Muslim men have that same “dysfunctional”, “disrespected“, “conditioning”, “victimization” gene that infects all of this type of male ” losers.” They are the ones whose egos are so weak that they never evolve beyond feeling insecure and victimized. They are the macho losers who join gangs like the Crips or al Qaeda.

    Just a bunch of dysfunctional genetics/conditioning which forms the rabid base of all hate groups – religious or political. Whenever you see a “leader”or a “prophet” selling hate, you will see these losers lining up. Losers. Losers. Losers.

    Also, any young man that comes up in a household where this is perceived as normal is going to do it as well. Yes there are exceptions. However, some men have not developed a way to assuage their anger so they lash out at their wives. They just haven’t been taught better. They are still responsible for their actions, but it is now a cultural issue, as well as a personal and a religious one.

    As a culture, Muslim men need to see that they are not living in 600 AD when physical violence against and beating of wives was duly legislated and was the norm. They need to realize now that it is unacceptable as a means of control in the 21st century. A real man does not need to hit and beat up his wife to rule his house correctly and manly. :)-

  8. Born in a particular family is something , faith and practice on the faith is different , A muslim is really a muslim if he practices his faith . Prayers Ahkaam e deen are one , respect of mother , wife and sister are other . Beat your wife for no reason and still think you are muslim
    and aim for Jannat may be a wishful thinking but can’t be true.

  9. hi. a few months back there was a story on a news program here (either 60 mins or dateline) about wife beatings in the muslim culture. they were talking about a muslim marriage guide (best seller in canada) that instructs muslim men on how to beat up their wives.

    showing sarcasm, reporter went over the advice dispensed in “a gift for the muslim couple” handbook: to beat her by hand or stick and pull her by the ears. ouch! ouch!

    husband may also withhold money from her to exert control, though should refrain from beating her too excessively. also they pointed out that wife is unable to leave house without his permission, and that she must fulfill his desires and not allow herself to be untidy but should beautify herself for his pleasure.

    i thank the good lord that i am not a muslim wife. if my husband even dared to lift a finger on me, he will be on the floor in 5 secs flat (because i know karate from a course i took in college :)-

    blessings

  10. Khan:

    You state to beat your wife for no reason and still think your are a muslim …………so it is okay to beat your wife for a reason?

    By the way, Muhammad allowed for women to be beaten. Aisha pointed out to Muhammad that no other women suffered as the believing women to him and even showed him how green the woman was but as usual it was okay. Next taking a wife just after slaughering her family in front of her is abuse and so is having additional wives. This creates pychological abuse and pits women against one another or they end up hating the baster (muhammad) that forced them into a the situation in the first place.

    Next he allowed women to be killed or torn apart as he had very low ego probably and was easily offended.

    Next apparently women used to be able to work with men and own businesses prior to him as can be seen by his wife. Which just shows how he made things far worse for women. In addition, there was another tribe were women had authority over men and he made sure to end this as well.

    If anything he ensured that some female infants would grow up to be abused, raped, and forced into becoming muslim’s men’s punching bags and booty. Wasn’t that nice of him. Save the female infants so we can thigh them and them rape them as children, let me show you the way and you will reap a reward for this with booty in the sky.

  11. Good for the women strong enough to get away. Hope they have a better life. Abuse is not just because of religion it is mostly because of lack of respect for that person as a human being.

  12. Radha:

    This is true but religion give them an added excuse and an escape clause that well God made me do it.

  13. Despite Islam did not deny slapping wives, that would be under some situation needed and that is the right the women need to be adherent to their husbands, culture of Saudis is that culture of before Islam.

  14. Thank you Reza for making anormal comment on this blog. Keep it up and you will be let out of moderation.
    Moderator

  15. It’s very frustrating the situation in Saudi Arabia! I hope one day soon, Manal Al Sharif will win her fight for women’s rights !

  16. What about when a man needs a good slapping from his wife? What does Islam have to say about that situation?

  17. Aafke-Art, Islam does deny such an act. Your problem is you think the real Islam belongs to Saudis whose culture is Arab culture not Islam look, Islam provide us the best way of life_that is not a claim.

  18. If a Quran is available check “An-Nisa(4):19″, a perfect claimed pure BELIEVER of Islam never slap his wives_slapping mentioned in Quran in 4:24 is under such situation that the wife plunder or dissipate her husband’s ASSET at her disposal.

  19. A Muslim:

    Just another reason to believe it is a manmade text spout hate crap.

  20. bigstick1, do you know why ya antagonize Quran? envy envy envy

  21. A muslim, Sorry but I don’t understand your comment. Which act is denied by Islam? Husbands beating their wives or wives beating their husbands?
    I know the Quran endorses husbands beating their wives, and many imams tell husbands to beat their wives and how best to do it.
    But, if husbands are allowed to beat their wives, then wives should be allowed to beat their husbands. ”Men and women are equal in the eyes of god” right? So why doesn’t Islam tell women how to beat their husbands?

    What about Saudi culture?
    Isn’t Islam a complete way of life? Isn’t Saudi culture shaped by the teachings of the prophet, Where Islam gains power it changes the local cultures into Islamic cultures. It’s always a change for the worse.
    Look at the Islamic countries today, they are all poor, mostly at war with somebody, their people are badly educated, they don’t produce much, certainly no technology, they do not invent anything, they are have a lot of human rights abuses, they have a lot of crime, they all suppress and abuse women, there is a lot of rape of women and children, there are child marriages. Women are burned alive, get acid thrown in their faces, people from other religions are persecuted or murdered.
    All this by using the guidelines of Islam.

    I consider all religions, especially the Abrahamic religions, as evil and immoral, but I am even less impressed with the influence of Islam.

  22. For your first question, go to read whole 4:24, “Men are guardians and in charge of women…” Never Quran endorse to beat women while they did not commit anything, OK?

  23. “Men are guardians and in charge of women…”
    And with that the problems begin!

  24. A muslim:

    I am very familar with the history of the compulation of koran, the fact that there were various verses, the problems with the language (allah know best because no one knows quite for sure whether that is what is stated), the hadith, sira were written a least 120 years after the fact and Ibn Ishaq actual works don’t exist or were destroyed just like the orginal of the koran; if such a thing ever existed in a singular form which many scholars state otherwise and shows the text has a history.

    Seriously I could go on about the make believe harry potter text on version 3.0 of the 4.0 versions of the abrahamic fairy religion.

  25. The Quran which no one could not bring any Aya(chapter) similar to so far, how dare you say such a trashy?

  26. A Muslim, on July 10, 2012 at 1:20 pm said: The Quran which no one could not bring any Aya (chapter) similar to so far, how dare you say such a trashy?

    Muslim is right! Koran does challenge mankind to produce a single verse as good as the koran. Muslim, will these verses do?

    For the sunnis: Prostrate yourselves in five daily prayers; with the morning prayer shortly before sunrise; immediately after noon; and in the late afternoon; and shortly after sunset; and between dusk and midnight.

    For the shias: Prostrate yourselves in three daily prayers; with the morning prayer shortly before sunrise; immediately after noon; and shortly after sunset.

    The most current version of koran doesn’t actually mention 5 or 3 daily prayers. This causes argument and confusion and mayhem and fitna and widespread killings between not only sunnis and shias but between other over 200 sects in islam.

    Using MY verses is clearer than the koran, causing no confusion, won’t ya say Muslim? The challenge has been met and won in the time it takes to make a cup of coffee or a bloody mary or a tall tom collins or a vodka martini, no?

    Muslim, d’ya like it :)-

  27. A-Muslim,

    I think you are referring to these two verses in reference to “produce a sura like this”:

    17:88: If all the humans and all the jinns bonded together in order to produce a Koran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another.

    2:23: And if you are in doubt as to which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a sura like it, and call on your helper, besides Allah, if you are truthful.

    A-Muslim, first of all, to reproduce an entire book like koran is meaningless and udderly redundant. No writer can just copy (or wish to copy) another writer to reproduce the same literary work. Anybody can throw a similar challenge to produce another each of these Must-Read Classics of Great Literature: Hamlet of Shakespeare or Alice In Wonderland of Carroll Lewis or Gitanjali of Rabindranath Tagore or Gone with the Wind of Margaret Mitchell or Joy of Sex of Masters & Johnson etc etc etc. To ask to give a supernatural coating to koranic verses or those literary works, no matter how foolish that would sound, is simply idiotic and silly.

    Now back to the context of “produce a sura like this”. Muslims dogmatically believe that nobody can produce a sura like what is stated in koran and when muslims are challenged regarding their faith, they turn to this claim as an irrefutable proof. There is a subtle but very real circularity for believing Muslims. The circularity goes like this:

    If you’re a muslim, you believe that the entire koran is the very word of god, and is therefore inerrant. As an implication of this, he/she also believes that there is no other writing as eloquent as the koran. Therefore, any attempt to “produce a sura like this” must fail; thus verifying that the koran is the very word of god and inerrant. In fact, the verse following the challenge affirms the impossibility of producing such a sura (to the muslims), and threatens disbelievers with the fire whose fuel is men and stones:

    2.24: But if ye cannot – and of a surety ye cannot – then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

    It is no surprise, then, that no muslims whatsoever have found any sura equal to the koranic text so far. They don’t wanna get consumed by the “fire whose fuel is men and stones”! The surprise would be if they had, since even admitting the possibility of a better sura contradicts 2:24, which says “of a surety ye cannot,” hence being a sign of disbelief.

    A-Muslim, when I see a challenge like this, it does not convince me of the koran’s truth. It does rather the opposite, making me suspect that the message is false. By the way, I mean no offense to any muslims, including Sara, A-Muslim, Mz Bawazeer, Sami, etc etc, who may read this. I just couldn’t think of any inoffensive way to say this. :)-

    http://islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=416:allah-challenges-quran-and-its-missing-chapters&catid=112:mohammad&Itemid=58

  28. I don’t see why a text which claims it’s the only true text should be proof of it’s being the only true text.

    And what does it mean; ”nobody can ever produce anything like it” when large parts of the Quran are copied from the bible to start with?

    And I don’t speak Arabic, but I have been told by Arabic speaking people that the Quran is actually rather badly written and full of grammatical mistakes.
    Except for a few bits which were plagiarized from early Arabic poets.

    I’m sorry if this is insulting to anybody but that’s not my fault, blame the men who made such a bad job of writing the Quran.

  29. Honest Abe__and others who is seekin’ the truth and coherence__I consider you more logical while your information about Islam is really little, I really wanna challenge you and at last convince you so that I request you to ask any fundamental question about Islam at islamlead@gmail.com and I eagerly embrace you_Islam found by all-logic(I have Quranic reasons).

  30. Plz let me out of moderation, I’m really diggin’ your site and it;s bedu’s

    As you wish. You are out of moderation, welcome and enjoy the blog!

  31. A Muslim:

    So are you providing your gmail for one on one because your position is weak?

    Besides didn’t you have an alter ego known as Reza?

  32. Sr. A Muslim, please note that women in the Quran are of no consequence. Verse 4:34 applies even if the woman is right. In fact, the idea that a woman may be right and the husband wrong never is considered. Under Islam, the man has the right to judge, control and punish the woman, whatever the circumstances (just say she is arrogant). I know it is crazy, but it is possible that a woman may be right, every 10 years or so, maybe once.

    What I find fascinating is how Muslims take the perfect Quran, add and subtract words to get it closer to their own understanding of what they would like it to say. Take 4:34, again. Consider this very common translation: http://quran.com/4/34.

    Note how they add words [between brackets]. Note how they come up with a 3-step program (first this, then that and finally) for wives when the Arabic has none of that. Note how Muslims continually edit verses to make Allah less barbaric or more logical. Isn’t that blasphemy? By changing Allah’s words, a Muslim is saying that Allah is defective and the Quran is poorly written.

    As to women, only one is mentioned by name in the Quran and Mohammad makes silly mistakes about her (no, she was not the sister of Aaron or a member of the trinity).

    I think the Quran refers to a total of about 6 women and only one is non-biblical. There is a verse about some Muslim complaining about is wife’s fat rear end, believe it or not, at least in one translation.

    You and Zaheer have to understand that for every nice verse or story you find in the Quran and hadith, critics of Islam can find as many or more that are evil. The problem with the good Muslims (like yourselves, I imagine) is that you refuse to accept the evil in Islam and because of this you permit that evil to exist and spread.

    So don’t talk about Mohammed being abused and accepting it without mentioning his actions when women were murdered when breasting feeding because a Muslim thought they were critical of Mohammed, or of a pregnant mother ripped open for the same reason or even women pulled apart by camels.

    You have to be consistent.

  33. bigstick1
    Look, I just want to show you I really embrace your question, here or at my personal E-mail, OTHERWISE I lonely answer all your questions friends.

  34. A Muslim,
    Don’t worry, you will not be alone, I take the challenge with you.

  35. your logical sense about the 3-step come up with Muslim is acceptable, plz understand I never take Islam side because I’ve grew up Muslim or in a Mid-East country, you and much of Christians are seekin’ the logic__despise amongst Muslims It see much more little__and this is laudable. At first you need to see Quran 3:7

  36. Sarah make me happy… Thx, I never wanna to say nothing but the truth, by searing the Quran’s God

  37. Irrespective of what any religion says to behave we are humans with thinking brains . If someone says smack your wife around why would you do it ? why is it ok to hit another human being ? I’m religious, to the extent i believe in a higher power and I’m known to cherry pick the good in my beliefs and shamelessly discard the bad. My spouse is kind of the same . and we have never felt the need to smack each other around . we are adults , we know right from wrong and we have been raised with proper education on how to rteat another human being. so technically IMO even if a holy book says to slap your wife in case she doesn’t heed you we as people need to discard that and ignore that edict. why is this so difficult to understand.

    We cherry pick so many many things in life, why do we attribute our lack of control, our bad nature and our brainlessness to a book. If someone says their holy book says to hit someone or their religious head says to discipline one’s spouse I’d say ignore it. Think of them as ignorant idiots and do not give them a thought. do what is right in your mind. treat people as you wish to be treated.
    we are born equal, no one is born to serve another or be subserviant to another be it mother, father or spouse. and intelligent and sane humans don’t need to be taught this.

  38. Dear, the husband used to work every day while the wife is at home and the husband property is at her disposal, Islam says if the wife violate and damage the property should be punished not by leaving her__so that cause the wife derelict__but by punishing her with a slap which dose not leave any sign and severe pain. OK?

    God help me

  39. If people here are accusing Muslims of cherry-picking (meaning that we pick only the good parts), then I must say that these same people are quilty of picking the parts which they think are bad (in their opinion).

    Radha, Quran asks men to treat their wives with kindness and not ignore her good aspects. ““Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them it may be that you dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.” (4:19). That is so beautiful.

    We know that in life in any situation, there is always a leader if not there will be conflicts. Every house has a leader, every city/town/village/, every country, every society/group/business …etc has someone in charge. If not there will be chaos. So in a family household, the husband is the head and he should use his position with respect and kindness. If there is some disagrement, then it should be resolved in peace. The “hitting” part comes only in extreme cases and as a last-est resort and that only if it will help in the matter – if not then it is not to be executed. It is not that he should be hitting her all the time. The “hitting” the Quran mentions is light tapping which should not leave any mark and it should not be on the face. How is this violent?

    Our prophet said that the best of men are those who treat their wives best. He also said “How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats a camel and then embrace her?”

    For a hater, tt is very easy to pick something from Quran and blow it out of proportion and distort it so much to make it look evil.

  40. Radha, so basically you and your husband are deists.

    My father always told me that is a man slapped me I should hit back. Hard.
    Hard enough so he wouldn’t get up for a while. Now that is really good advice which should be in all the magic books. :twisted:

  41. Sarah, you seem to forget the rule of abrogation. I never denied that all magic books contain some good things, however, they contain so many evil things that it doesn’t really matter.
    Besides, I have seen enough heartless and wicked comments by you to see again how religion hardens peoples hearts and destroys morality.
    And the truly good and caring people have no choice but to cherry pick the nice bits, otherwise their religions are too much in conflict with thier good morality.
    But that can only mean that they are better people than the people who wrote their holy books. That means the magic books do not really matter. Except that for those who are of weak mind, or who are evil to start with, they influence them to do evil, to murder, to condemn, to bomb the innocent.

  42. So just to be clear Sarah, I don’t accuse you of ”cherry-picking”. On the contrary, I believe you are following Islam very completely. With all the misogyny, masochism (because you are a woman), hatred of non-believers, gays, superstitions about witches etc. I bet you agree with apostates having to be murdered, with your husband slapping you around, upgrading you with a younger bit of booty, etc.
    You, are one of the people I do not give the benefit of the doubt, I do not think your morals elevated above your religion, and so you do not need to cherry pick.

  43. Sarah, there is no ‘leader’ in our home. We are equal partners. If my husband ever hit me the police would be at the door so fast and he would be out the door permanently if not also charged with assault. The police would protect me and they would remove my husband if he had not already left. I could get a restraining order that would forbid him to come anywhere near me. I could legally change the locks on the doors so he could not enter. There is NEVER a good reason to hit someone and especially a spouse.

  44. Wendy.
    Yes if he hit you, you can call the police but would you do same if he lightly taps you?

  45. Sarah, on July 11, 2012 at 5:23 pm said: ” ….The “hitting” the Quran mentions is light tapping which should not leave any mark and it should not be on the face. How is this violent? ….”.

    First of all, this “light tapping” bit was added into the parenthesis (i.e. re-writing the koran), after 9/11 to make islam look more a religion of peace than it is. A major re-writing of koran took place, within the parenthesis, soon after 9/11. Ah the power of parenthesis while all the while claiming that not an iota of word has been changed in the koran!!!

    Secondly, it shouldn’t matter whether “hitting” is light or light tapping or with a tooth brush or a toothpick or a miswak. It is wrong wrong wrong whether it is the wife or any human being. It is de-humanizing to the wife and leaves permanent psychological scars. Koran and hadith are both full of crap which calls women mentally deficient and inferior to men (don’t give me this bull*hit about one has to be a man of the house). Such stuff belongs in the caves of hira complex of 610 AD and NOT in this 21st century.

    I am so glad I am with US and with THEM …..

  46. AA,
    “:With all the misogyny, masochism (because you are a woman), hatred of non-believers, gays, superstitions about witches etc. I bet you agree with apostates having to be murdered, with your husband slapping you around, upgrading you with a younger bit of booty, etc.
    You, are one of the people I do not give the benefit of the doubt, I do not think your morals elevated above your religion, and so you do not need to cherry pick”

    I don’t hate non believers – I never said or implied that. They are our brothers and sisters in humanity. About apostates, I did write a long comment in this blog somewhere sometime last year. I wish I had time to search for it but anyway the jist of it was that they should not be killed. My husband does not slap me around. If he does, I will call the police. There is no booty currently.

    Peace.

  47. what rule of abrogation?

  48. Mooz,
    I have read this light tapping years before 9/11 – if you read Arabic – that is. The brackets are in English not in Arabic version.
    As I said it is not a recommended act, it is just like a reminder after all has not worked. It is does lead to permanent psychological scars. If so I have yet to see one.

  49. @sarah / a muslim.

    First there is no leader in our home. we are both adults, partners and equally responsible for the welfare of our family and any kids we choose to have.
    2nd if my husband works and i’m a home maker i still consider that a job – working inside the home. All property i consider our property not my husband’s property at my disposal. so if i were to damage our property we discuss this and if it was wilfully done, my husband can choose to live with me or not but NEVER to raise a finger on me.
    3rd there is no last resort – even lightly tapping in anger ( the context is important) or as a way of correcting an ADULT spouse’s behavior is not appropriate behavior in an equal relationship .

    4th hitting doesn’t have to be violent, i understand how the koran says to hit, I’m looking at hitting as more a humiliation, as punishment. we can correct each others behavior if it affects the family politely as adults , if you make a mistake at work does your boss humiliate you?

    Anyway all this is moot in a relationship where is there is one leader and the rest are followers. luckily for us we are both equally responsible and leaders for the welfare of our family, that every ship has one captain is a bunch of BS, our family is neither a ship nor is my husband the captain. we are 2 adults who love each other and choose to share our lives an dit’s immesurable joys and sorrows with each other – no matter what holy book says.

    AAFKE – no idea, guess we are that then :-) we do beleive in god but within logical reason and definetly no holy book is going to make me smack my adult spouse around.. or treat him in such a way as to humiliate him.. my parents made sure i was educated that much :-)

  50. Sarah, he would be out the door faster than you can say ‘get out’. If he pushed me the same thing would happen. Would you hit or tap your husband?

  51. Radha
    Thanks for your reply. When I said leader, maybe I was not very clear. I have mentioned in a previous post that men and women are not equal but they compliment each other each with diffrent roles. Yes, sure husband and wife are equal deciders but that does not make them equal per se. They will both sit and discuss any matter and come to conclusions which both agree upon. However when it comes to matters where there is no decision or there is argument, the husband holds a position.

    You are talking about normal day to day rountine kind of decision making. I am not talking about these, I am talking about serious issues such as wife doing doing things behind the husband’s back which he does not approve of or having secret meetings with people who he considers are bad influence on the family …etc.

    ” if you make a mistake at work does your boss humiliate you?”
    Yes he does and it depends on what kind of boss he is but they can humilite you, even teachers do, parents do too.

    No this kind if hitting is not that of humiliation. It is an indication that this is the final step after which he can make a crucial decision of what he wants to do. It is not meant to degrade or scar the person.

    Radha, whose surnames do your children have, your husbands, yours or both? And why?

    Actually, Radha, the verse which talks about “hitting” is about defending the women’s rights at a time when opressing women was common and normal. It is not meant that women should obey husbands blindy or husbands can beat them randomly …etc. It is how people percieve it now without going into the background of the verse.

  52. Sara, Tabarakallah Ahsantum, Really “coherently” and “Quranic”

    Quran 49:13__indicates there is no superiority but…

  53. Barak Allah feek.
    I am waiting for aborgation from AA.

  54. @sarah – I guess we should agree to disagree :-) i still don’t find any reason serious enough for my husband to over rule me or dictate my behavior. We have ofcourse associated with friends whom the other does not like and keep these relationships separate so as to not cause hurt to the spouse. E.g my husband has a good friend who i absolutely detest, my husband can overlook his faults i cannot, hence he doesn’t bring him home :-) i consider him a bad influence but I’m yet to hold a position of leader and asking my husband to drop his aquaintance :-) or lightly tap him .

    As for an issue with no outcome, sometimes i push my opinion sometimes he does, depends on who it affects the most. again no primary end decision making authority.

    As for surnames, my kids have a last name with a combination of both mine and my husbands . Initially we were going to go with just first and last names which were meaningful so we didn’t have to go with mine or my husbands and later decided to do a joined+ chopped off version of both.
    we dropped the al- in his last name and just joined my lastname and his.

    now my son wants to drop my husbands piece of his last name and just retain mine. which is his choice andwe’re ok with that, but a real pain to change all documents, so we’re waiting for my daughter to decide and if she wants to do the same then i guess we’ll do it together. makes me wish we had stuck to the original idea of just giving them meaningful first and last names .. oh well hindsight !!!!

  55. Sara, I could get your comment sorry.

  56. radha,

    Quran starts with advice much before than hitting wives, you need to read the whole of Aya.

    Do not behave emotionally and say “All property i consider our property not my husband’s property at my disposal”. In fact this is men who have to work, earn and facilitate his family’s requirement.

    Secondly any community without leader will be perished, it is proved any community without a leader will be DISSIPATED__and a family the smallest community__but it dose not mean men should talk and women should be suffocated, the men who__after advices__are the spwaker of family, and the last determiner.

  57. Neither does is mean that the man should be the leader, especially when women make better leaders.

  58. A Muslim – I was saying that I waiting for Aafke to say which verses are abrogated (nice verses replaced with bad ones, according to her)

    Radha, You mentioned a case where a friend of your husband is bad influence and you do not like him to be around him. I am sure you have discussed this matter together – so why did you not fight your case? Do you not care that he spends time with this guy? What do you think he will do – agree to stop the meeting?

    About thre surname, it is interesting how you kept both names for your kids. Is that most people do in USA? I know some wives keep hyphenated names of their father or ex-spouse and join it with new spouse names. Do husbands take the wife surnames after they get married? Or hyphenate their ex-wife names or their mothers?

    See Radha, if some serious case did not occur in your family, it does not mean that it does not ever occur with other families.

  59. i haven’t said much on this wife beating thing since i am still learning your religion on this forum. after reading through some of the emails here, i am wondering to myself what kind of god will allow a husband to beat up his wife. gives me the creeps and shivers just to think about it. i don’t care if it is light beating or heavy bloody beating or with a toothbrush. beating is beating. it certainly makes the wife feel like a child or subhuman.

    in the west, the wife has the recourse and protection of law. i wonder what happens in muslim countries when the husband beats his wife and she has the courage to call the cops. i may be wrong here but i reckon the cops are gonna throw the holy book on her and point out to the verse that husband has the right to beat her up. hope i am wrong. maybe somebody can throw some light on this.

    like someone else said here, muslims should not pay any attention to such orders from god …. whether it is beating the wife or killing infidels or doing a jihad against the rest of the world or considering jews/christians as sub-human or apes and pigs and swines. be like many christians and jews who ignore the violent and anti-woman and anti-gay and anti-apostates verses in their holy books. i see that as the only salvation for muslims if they yearn to be seen as the religion of peace. right now, they have a very bad reputation, right or wrong.

    blessings!

  60. Sarah – In case you have forgotten my husband is Muslim and he KNOWS I am his equal. He wouldn’t think of even tapping me nor I he. If a couple can’t have mutual respect without being told how to do it then there’s no hope.

  61. Louise, the same god who allows men to make slaves of others and rape the female ones.
    Which, btw, is the same god as the one from the bible.

  62. I could not even imagine my husband ”tapping” me, he is way too ethical and the most polite human I know.

    About ”tapping” here is a video explaining it. You see, when you purchase a car you also get a manual, that’s why Allah gives you a manual on how to beat the wife you purchased (This is only aimed at men of course):


    PS Sarah, I am not going to explain to you, as a Muslim who reads the Quran you should have found the verse by now. You should know more about it than I do, and I am not going to do your work for you.

  63. Another video explaining how Allah honores women by letting the men beat us.
    Aren’t we lucky?
    He must not damage our face, or break our bones.
    Isn’t it wonderful?
    And when he beats us, he is not allowed to curse us as well.
    It’s incredible! After all, it’s only to discipline us. Such mercy!
    And no more than 10 beatings, according to beating etiquette…

  64. Of course a man has no other option as to beat us, because if we are not obedient… What else can he do?
    And of course the man is the boss, because we are too stupid to make decisions for ourselves. And of course a man always has better judgment than a woman. At least according to Allah.
    Luckily the all knowing invisible sky daddy has recognized the problem and so he has left instructions in case the men do not know they can and should beat us up.
    From time to time.
    And keeping to the rules of ”beating-etiquette”
    Light beatings.

    Light beatings are not excessive, they don’t cause broken bones or cause the belligerent wife to b leed, and they do ot kill her. Anything less is just a light beating.

    It’s clear the men cannot help beating women up, the responsibility lies with us (of course) I hope we all follow these rules:
    -We need to speak quietly
    -As soon as hubby comes home we jump up and prepare him something to eat,
    -We carry out all our duties towards hubby and family
    -We must not give hubby the chance to beat us
    -If he has beaten us up we must treat him in such a way that it doesn’t become a habit. that would be putting too much hardship upon the poor man.

  65. Another imam: also advocates light beatings, which do not cause bleeding or break bones.
    But beatings are indispensable. Not only for wives, but also for children.

  66. Women should not be beaten in the face, after all you wouldn’t do that to your camel or donkey either would you?
    And you don’t want to make her ugly would you?

  67. @A muslim – In our family, i work equally and provide and earn too, i go as far to say even if i do not earn outside the home the property is shared and this is not an emotional statement, it;s a FACT.
    Our family is a union of 2 people not a community with a leader. so we both get a say no last determiner needed… but again mutual respect cannot be taught and i understand in partriarchial cultures that’s hard for people to accept – I’m ok with that as long as i don’t have to live it.. to each his own.

  68. These guys are all sick. Any man who thinks this way is sick. I loved the second guy who said one form of discipline if beating did NOT work would be to NOT sleep with the wife. Geez, I might consider a beating worth it to keep him out of my bed. But wait … he backtracks by saying if the wife doesn’t sleep with him she should get beat. Muslims on this forum who think these guys are right … do you think you’d be happy giving your body to somebody who abuses you? That’s called S&M if you’re happy about it.

    Now I wonder how some of the people here feel about Canada and the USA considering to ban spanking a child. Not only banning but making it an illegal act. Imagine that! It’s not legal to hit your wife and now not even a child? Hmmm… maybe these guys should just go after themselves. It’s no wonder I see donkeys and other animals being abused in Islamic countries. If you can’t respect a woman or child then how could I even think they would respect other animals.

  69. Oh and I might add that marriage vows here specify that both husband and wife are equal under law!!!

  70. @sarah – no we don’t follow any specific countries customs on surname. both my kids were born in India, we follow our own custom which we think is fair and which suits our family. it was my grandmothers idea to have a meaningful first and last name that doesn’t prefer dad or mom :-)

    ” I am sure you have discussed this matter together – so why did you not fight your case? Do you not care that he spends time with this guy? What do you think he will do – agree to stop the meeting?”

    — my husband is an adult, he is free to decide who can and cannot be his friends. i only don’t like that guy’s ideas and living style and hence my husband does not expose him to me :-) I think it’s incredibly rude of me to tell my husband who he can and cannot be friends with so i don’t. it is enough i’m not subject to his presence ..
    the friend happens to treat his wife shoddily and has taken a 2nd wife and quotes the koran as justification , I find his treatment of women very objectionable but he is still a respected physician and very knowledgeable in his trade . so i make sure his personal life doesn’t cross mine and i’m happy i have no issues with my husband having a cup of tea with him or hitting a round of golf .

  71. I always felt my late husband’s equal during our too brief marriage. In fact, through our relationship there were times when he was the strong one and there were other times when I was the strong one. But to me, that’s natural to happen in a caring and loving relationship.

    My husband and I were always courteous in ensuring each knew what the other was up to or had planned but neither of us expected permission from the other. That’s not to say there would be important decisions we would discuss together and reach a unified agreement or course of action. Again, that’s a natural process to me within a relationship.

    I’ve got to stop writing now as it is making me miss my husband too much at this moment.

  72. Women are abused anywhere, but people see what they look for.

    Nearly 1 in 5 Women in U.S. Survey Say They Have Been Sexually Assaulted. 22 million women in the United States have been raped in their lifetime. .. this number will be more than entire Muslim world ..

    U.S. STATISTICS

    Fact #1: 18.3 % of women in the United States have survived a completed or attempted rape. Of these, 12.3% were younger than age 12 when they were first raped, and 29.9% were between the ages of 11 and 17. (National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010)

    Fact #2: 22 million women in the United States have been raped in their lifetime. 63.84% of women who reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked since age 18 were victimized by a current or former husband, cohabiting partner, boyfriend, or date. (National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010)

    Fact #3: Less than half of domestic violence incidents are reported to police. African-American women are more likely than others to report their victimization to police Lawrence A. Greenfeld et al. (1998). (Violence by Intimates: Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends. Bureau of Justice Statistics Factbook. Washington DC: U.S. Department of Justice. NCJ #167237. Available from National Criminal Justice Reference Service.)

    Fact #4: The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.

    Fact #5: Almost one-third of female homicide victims are killed by an intimate partner. (FBI, Uniform Crime Reports 2001)

    Fact #6: The National College Women Sexual Victimization Study estimated that between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 college women experience completed or attempted rape during their college years (Fisher 2000).

    Fact #7: Men perpetrate the majority of violent acts against women (DeLahunta 1997).

    Fact #8: Every two minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted. (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network (RAINN) calculation based on 2000 National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice)

    Fact #9: One out of every five American women have been the victims of an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. (The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010)

    Fact #10: Factoring in unreported rapes, about 6% of rapists will ever spend a day in jail. 15 out of 16 will walk free. (Probability statistics based on US Department of Justice Statistics)

    Fact #11: Almost 10% of high school students are victims of dating violence each year. (Youth Risk Behavior Survellience 2009).

  73. And do you know why there are no legitimate stats in KSA? For one, women are worthless if not virgins so rape would be hard to admit. The women would most likely be punished because simply by being a woman they would be at fault. Women and children are raped in huge numbers every day in Muslim countries. Women are raped by their husbands which is illegal in Canada and would be included in any rape statistics coming from Canada. I would expect there are exactly the same percentage of rapes in Muslim countries … if not more!

  74. It depends on what people look for. Some verses where Islam prohibits beating women but ask to treat nicely:

    No time but let me put a few:

    1) Narrated Mu’awiyah al-Qushayri: “I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)”

    2) Narrated Mu’awiyah ibn Haydah: “I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her(Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)”

    3) Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: “He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. ” (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)”

    4) PROPHET MUHAMMAD DIDNT BEAT ANY1 IN LIFE:
    ————————————————————————-

    ‘A’isha reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) never beat anyone with his hand, neither a woman nor a servant, but only, in the case when he had been fighting in the cause of Allah and he never took revenge for anything unless the things made inviolable by Allah were made violable; he then took revenge for Allah, the Exalted and Glorious.(Sahih Muslim,Book 030, Number 5756)

    5. Divorce is better option from husband who beats wife.

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin:
    Habibah daughter of Sahl was the wife of Thabit ibn Qays Shimmas He beat her and broke some of her part. So she came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) after morning, and complained to him against her husband. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) called on Thabit ibn Qays and said (to him): Take a part of her property and separate yourself from her. He asked: Is that right, Apostle of Allah? He said: Yes. He said: I have given her two gardens of mine as a dower, and they are already in her possession. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Take them and separate yourself from her.(Abu DAwud,Book 12, Number 2220)

    6) I (the narrator Laqit) then said: Messenger of Allah, I have a wife who has something (wrong) in her tongue, i.e. she is insolent. He said: Then divorce her. I said: Messenger of Allah, she had company with me and I have children from her.
    He said: Then ask her (to obey you). If there is something good in her, she will do so (obey); and do not beat your wife”(Abu Dawud, Book 1, Number 0142 )

    7) Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Zam’a:

    The Prophet forbade laughing at a person who passes wind, and said, “How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?” (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 68)

    8) In Abu-Dawud, Ibn Ma’jah, Tirmidhi says –

    “Men who beat their wives are not best amonst u”

    9) Prophet suggested woman to reject wife beater’s proposal for marriage.

    Fatima bint Qais (Allah be pleased with her) reported that ……….Mu’awiya, Abu Jahm and Usama b. Zaid had given her the proposal of marriage.
    Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: So far as Mu’awiya is concerned, he is a poor man without any property. So far as Abu Jahm is concerned, he is a great beater of women, but Usama b. Zaid… She pointed with her hand (that she did not approve of the idea of marrying) Usama. But Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon himn) said: Obedience to Allah and obedience to His Messenger is better for thee. She said: So I married him, and I became an object of envy.(Sahih Muslim, Book 009, Number 3526)

    10) Hadith in Tirmidhi prophet said –

    “Best people from among u are those who are best to their wives”

    11) In Abu-Dawud, Ibn Ma’jah, Tirmidhi prophet(PBUH) said –
    “Men who beat their wives are not best amonst u”

    12)Hadith in Tirmidhi prophet(PBUH) said -“The believers who show the most perfect Faith are those who have the best behavior, and the best of you are those who are best to their wives.”

    13). Allah’s Apostle said, “You will be rewarded for whatever you spend for Allah’s sake even if it were a morsel which you put in your WIFE’s mouth. “sahih Bukhari, vol1,book2,hadith53

    ————— Subhanallah ———great message every men shud follow———————

  75. Wendy,

    See the figure dear, – 22 million women in the United States have been raped in their lifetime.

    U know 22 million women, 1 in 5 women raped, u will not find surely in KSA this much number. So accept that women are suppressed everwhere. I feel pity to those women who have 2/3 kids without knowing father and she struggles alone to bring up the kids. U will see large number of such women in US, UK. Men dont like to marry and take responsibilities, they just use and throw her alone..

  76. Azad:

    You know you really aren’t making any case on men being protectors of women. You know that right? You are making a case of men being the abusers of women.

    Next, I think per capita that Saudi would have higher rates if women were allowed to report without the problems of shame, tortore, imprisonment, or death. That would be true in all muslim countries.

    In addition, men are only required to pay for approximately 3 months of living expenses to his wife if divorced not so in many western countries as there are child support and for some alimony provisions. Then there is the split of the property, typically 50/50 depending on factors of length of marriage, property acquired prior to marriage, etc.

    Next the divorce rate in Saudi is higher than the USA.

    Now you have to understand that re-teaching or teaching male children that Bible and Quran is crap and what it teaches on women is horse shi$ and the fact that it endorses abuse against women/children is a slow process. These fairytale abusive hate books have created on-going cycles of abuse whereby it can take many generations to break the cycle of religious abuse and psycological damage. Studies have repeatedly found that the less religious society is the less violent it is and the less crime particular against women and children occur.

    Now the United State is the most religious western country there is and those areas such as the bible belt typically have the most crime, abuse and least educated populace. However the younger generations is quickly beginning to shake of the shackles of abusive religous hate ideology and are quickly becoming non-believers to atheists. In fact, crime is actually going down for the most part. Personally I would attribute this to the US becoming less religious.

  77. bigstick1,

    I should tell you first the man-made rules__which you tell about__should be perished. This world’s rules issued whom created.

    you have never come to a Islamic society, then talk about the rape rate in Saudi?

    I you media censor nothing and show the the holy truth about a Islamic community you never let yourself say such a thing, you should ask me that have grew up in a All-Muslim country. Girls and women in Islamic countries are not comparable with women in Western where having children without knowing father dose not matter and so on.

  78. A-Muslim:

    You have to be kidding right? Women can’t go down many streets without being sexually harassed or chased in many muslim countries. Learn to face reality.

  79. A-Muslim:

    Culture and Religion are very much intertwined and both can be abusive.

    I am an atheist I don’t believe in a creator, try again.

  80. Azad – percentage-wise there is just as much rape in KSA and other Islamic countries as in non-Islamic countries.

  81. Wendy, sorry I have to ask you this, but did you at any time become a disloyal wife? Are you a rebellious wife, do you go behind your husband and do things he does not like you to do? I am guessing that you are a good wife so there was no reason for any kind of tapping. And besides, tapping is not something that is recommended and that IT HAS to be done. No, it is just an indication and even that is not really liked or needed.

    Please try to understand and do not keep repeating that you both never “hit” each other and you so so equal. No matter how equal you make yourself you will never be, phyiscally and mentally. Yes you compliment each other. Try to see things with open mind and not only with you two in the picture.

  82. bigstick1,

    “Women can’t go down many streets without being sexually harassed or chased in many muslim countries.” Not as much as Secular countries such as Westerns.

    Religion for A Muslim construct his cultures,rules,customs. Therefore decency of Muslim women in relation to others is undisputable.

    Islam came to us__Muslims, Christians, Jews and Atheists__with the topnotch plan to live.

  83. Bigstick Number one,

    Question Islam, challenge Islam not only denying…

    Despite you are atheist, may God help you and open a new window towards himself for you
    Try Again

  84. AA,

    You could not find any abrogation? and this is why you are pasting a load of videos from youtube with the hope that abrogation verse will be forgotten and hoping that these videos by some shks will strengthen your point? Alas, it does the opposite.

    Why did you not mention that the Shk said that beating is only when she refuses to sleep with him? Your men do that too or worse. If you refuse them, they go to others. Is that how your men honor you? I want to tell you that the West that has made people to live freely and do opposite of everything that Islam teaches. It is your mentally that causes you not to understand or don’t want to understand. Tell me, all this freedom, how did or does it help you. Are your nations free of all sins, are the people perfect?

    My SIL’s ex husband – not a Muslim – beat the hell out of her while she was pregnant with twins – did not bother to see her while she was delivering. Same thing happened to a close British friend of mine, her husband beat her up and she is deaf/mute. And there are a millions like those. And yet you make a big fuss of a small tap.

    Truth will prevail and falsehood is bound to perish.

    bigstick1 : ” Women can’t go down many streets without being sexually harassed or chased in many muslim countries”
    That is your unseen reality. I have walked alone many times in Muslim countries and nothing like that happened. And it can happen, even in your country, but it is not like its happening all the time.

    Thanks for sharing the video; it was very interesting but it is mostly remote villages and cultural thing which they do to protect the girls (as the reported mentioned) from men.

  85. Wendy, if you are so equal, why doen’t your husband take your surname to his and you take his name? Why don’t your children take your family name? Like Radha’s children did? Why don’t you build a house for your husband to live in. Why does he not become a househusband and knit at home. Maybe you wear jeans and shirts but does he wear lacey frocks? Do you buy flowers and choclates for him in your valentine day? Ask yourself, Wendy?

  86. “Say: ‘truth has come and falsehood has vanished. indeed, falsehood
    will certainly vanish. ‘ ” 17:81

  87. Wendy, yes, I would like to know, have you ever been disloyal to your husband? Have there been times where you disobeyed His commands? Have you ever refused… sex????
    Because then of course you should have been beaten, this is they way in which god honors you!
    Although I still don’t know what we women are to do when our husband is disobedient to us, or refuses to have sex with us.

    A Muslim, you are using a logical fallacy. A very childish one, ”them do it toooo” is by no means a good excuse. And although there are evil men in the west who rape women, let’s not forget that in the West these men gets punished for the crime he committed, while in Muslim countries the women get punished for the crime men commit on her. And I do not think the numbers are equal anyway. 95% of women get abused or raped. That is the result from making women into a sub-human species and never punishing men for raping or even killing women. We see women being raped, stoned, disfigured by acid or burning, or having their noses cut off, we see them killed, we see Muslim men killing their daughters and sisters even in the West. The crimes committed to women in the Muslim world are so horrendous, you should be ashamed and spend your time fighting that, not apologizing for the religion which is the original cause here.
    Oh, and I consider every woman raped who is married off to a stranger against her will.
    And every underage girl (so under 21 years old) who was sold into ”marriage” has been raped by the pedophile who brought her.

    Sarah, ok, as you are so badly versed in your own religion here’s a video for you:

  88. ABROGATION OF VERSES

    Sarah,

    I am udderly shocked that as a “good” muslim, you know nothing about the concept of abrogation of verses in the koran. Are ya sure that you are not in denial, Sarah? :)-

    When I went to school (when i still used to be a moozlum), it was a subject unto itself in the islamic studies syllabus. Mainstream sunnis and shias know this concept too well. I understand that certain sects of ahmedis don’t believe in this doctrine of abrogation.

    The official position of Al-Azhar is that koran contains a unique feature known as abrogation. They maintain, on the basis of a few koranic passages, that the koran has verses that cancel or abrogate other verses within it. The verses that have been canceled or annulled are known as mansukh, and those texts or commands doing the canceling are called nasikh. They also believe that it is allah who has revealed both sets of texts, i.e. allah is the one who sent down the canceled and the canceling verses.

    Unlike Azad Ali Shah who has these bad manners of copy/pasting long long long rants, I am going to only reference the appropriate abrogating verses here and you can look these up in the koran: 2.106, 13.39, 16.101, which allah allegedly instructed mohammed to put into the koran.

    Like someone explained earlier, in an attempt to polish islam’s image (especially after 9/11), muslims usually quote verses from the koran that were written in the early days of islam while mohammed lived in mecca. Those passages make islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience.

    Oh what a deception! These muslims fail to tell gullible people that such verses, though still in the koran, were nullified, abrogated, rendered void by later passages that incite killing, beheadings, decapitations, maiming, terrorism and religious intolerance. The latter verses were penned while mohammed’s terrorist headquarter was based in medina.

    Sarah, here is a link which comprehensively and in-depth explains the Doctrine Of Abrogation:

    http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam

  89. And Sarah, the Quran is not put together in chronological order, but in Persian literary order, longest verse first. (except the first one of course) Now it seems that as Mohammed gained power he had access to better scribes, so the later verses are a lot longer and mor complicated than the earlier ones, so it’s mostly the last verses in the Quran which are the earlier ones.
    But if you google it you will find many websites which give the chronological order.

    Basically about 40% of the Quran is abrogated so doesn’t count. Unhappily these are all the nice ones, leaving the ”Kill all the kuffaar” ”never make friends with Jews and Christians” etc.

    It’s a bit strange to me that the all knowing invisible sky daddy changed his mind so often, but I am sure some apologist will explain to us why the ”invisible skydaddy for whom there is no proof” behaved like a fallible human male in putting together this book which nobody can understand.

    I am sorry you need to be educated in your religion by a kuffar and an ex-muslim. That must be pretty galling to you.
    Some advice: maybe you should spend a bit more time studying your magic books, instead of whining on blogs.

  90. Aafke-Art, just read to know more:

    1st: Committing rape in Islam put the man to death__where do you can find such a feminist sentence?__

    2nd: If women commit Zina(adultery by her will) should be punished along with the man by equal sentence(80 lashes)

    3rd: You are right about underage marriage__which if it is a bit forcibly is emphasizedly prohibited by Holy Quran__but notice that it is NOT confined to Islam but you used to ignore “the Soviet Girl Supermarkets, Hindu daughters selling and Americans, Germans and Hollands heartened children to be a great pornstar…

  91. This “whining on blogs” that you said is a kind of Jihad…

  92. Aafke-Art, Islam commanded me to be logical, a good listener and polite when desputing Kuffar, and this whining and chatting counted for us Jihad…

  93. A Muslim:

    You obviously think that just because other culture/religious do things that are reprehensible it gives Islam a pass or that you just cannot judge Islam as bad if someone else doe it. YOU ARE WRONG.

    If someone or another culture engages in such activites they are equally guilty of manmade atrocities infected upon humanity and Islam is no different. It too will stand as an evil against humanity as well.

  94. A Muslim, I was addressing Sarah.

    In Islamic countries we do not see a lot of punishment for rape. At least not for men. For women there are of course lots of punishments for the crime of being raped, from life in prison to hanging and stoning to death. Disgusting!

    And the Quran tacitly allows female slaves being raped. And as I said, every woman or child who has been married off against her will is being raped. Every woman who doesn’t want to have sex with her husband but is forced to is being raped. Have you seen how ridiculous the imams think the west is for allowing the concept of rape in marriage? There’s no such thing in Islam. Well, i am from the west, and any sexual act against a woman’s will is rape, whether she is the lawful property (either by marriage or enslavement) of a man or not.

    The prophet, the best of men, married Aischa when she was 6, or so it is believed, and when he had the money to pay for her and she was nine he ”consummated” the marriage. This is the example for all Muslims, so it is very difficult to prohibit child rape by marriage in Muslim countries. In Yemen they stopped a law prohibiting such young children being sold off in marriage by claiming it was unislamic.

    i am really getting tired of this conversation. There’s no way you can claim that women have a better lot in life in a country ruled by Islamic rule. It’s just not true. The more ”religious” and ”islamic” a country get the more women get raped, abused, and get killed.
    There’s just no way you can make this different, not by any statistics from the ”west”, or childish claims that if others do it your religion cannot be held to account.

    Well, I hold your religion to account: islam is the main cause for the horrible oppression, abuse, rape, disfigurement, and murder of hundreds of thousands of women in Islamic countries. In numbers unequaled by any other countryunder the rule of other religions.
    And lets not forget that countries who are under secular rule do better in every respect, humanitarian, socially and economically that countries under religious rule or with religious majorities.

    Religion poisons everything.
    And especially the lives of women.

  95. If Islam was the perfect template for a human society then we should see Islamic countries where women were free and treated fairly and humanely, we should see industry, economic growth, peace, advancement in science and medicine. We should see happy, free people, and prosperity.
    You’ve got to be kidding!
    Islamic countries are a big failure all around the world!
    This is not the fault of the people, but of religion. Religion is very very bad. Religion causes stagnation, suffering, poverty, suppression and wars.

  96. A Muslim, And why should people who want to have consensual sex be punished?
    What a ridiculous concept!
    Sex is fun, sex is natural, sex is healthy. Sex is programmed into us. It’s clear from human’s natural behavior that sex is or should be a normal part of our lives.
    People should stay out of each others sex lives. Nobody has the right to punish people who have consensual sex.

  97. sometimes i think any discussion is pointless. if we have issues with what is equality and respect in a mriiage then there is no hope !!!
    sarah – i know you addressed wendy but equality is not wearing the same clothes or men staying home.. equality means treating both men and women with respect. just because my kids prefer my last name today doesn’t make me equal to my husband. it makes my kids free to choose nothing more nothing less.
    we get married to share our lives not to be led by another person. atleats some of us. we marry for love and for companionship.
    we marry so we have another person to lean onand to support. equality doesn’t mean i cook one day and my husband cooks the next in exact 50-50 division of labor, it means we do what makes us happy and mostly we want to please the other person.
    and yes women are abused all around the world, due to patriarchial cultures, traditions, and plain meanness . no country is exempt some countries have means to redress this crime some don’t .we should teach our kids boys to respect and girls to standup for their rights and hopefully the next gen will be better than us :-)
    and there is no perfect or best religion, what works for one may not work for another — and at best we can pick the good parts and discard the bad ones , I attribute the bad parts to that period in time. it worked in those days amd hence was written for that time period, we as humans evolve and i see no problem taking the good parts in a religion and applying it to life.
    so when the koran says hit your wife, my husband would say nope, i don’t – not even lightly , not even a tap and move on. it doesn’t mean he’s against the religion, it means he chooses to use his brain and apply the teachings the way he sees fit.

  98. Aafke-Art,

    #1:
    We won’t have slaves any longer, Lady of Abrogation

    #2:
    Look at Iran__a developing Islamic country__with such a good achievements.

    #3:
    Sex in Islamic Thought defines as fallowing:
    The primary aim__from the beginning was and__is continuation of generation and the secondary is to promote the amour__which granted by Allah__between a pure husband and wife.

  99. American Bedu,

    Why moderation again?
    I just digging your blog, what happened so?

  100. Radha,

    WoW… I begging you to understand!

    see http://quran.com/3/7
    see http://quran.com/4/19

  101. Radha,

  102. Radha, please

    see http://quran.com/3/7
    see http://quran.com/4/19

  103. Radha, try to understand__you also possess that Divine heart which the holy Quran is come down for__please check:

    Quran 3:7
    Quran 4:19

  104. American Bedu,

    Sorry, solved it!
    And really appreciate for founding here!!!

    To avoid spam all comments with more than one link will always go into moderation.

  105. AA, I watched the video, you recommended but the guy does not talk about abrogation of the verse I gave. As far as I understood, you said that that verse on the topic is “hitting” was abrogated.

    For someone who complained that A-Muslim was not clear, you yourself are not very eloquent are you? The topic is abuse of women in this post and not abrogation. I asked you again and again for prove of that – it was only because I thought it was on this subject.

    However since you went through the trouble of going thru Youtube to find a video which matches your view, I will tell you – who is this guy? Someone in authority on the quran? Just cos he reads in Arabic means he is right? BTW, he did not read it correct. He missed something. And from what he is talking it seems that he did not understand the verse because it took it totally out of context. I can go on about what he said but this is not the place to do that.

    Thanks for the link, but for someone so learned in Quranic literature, is this video what you came up with? I am disappointed. Maybe you need to study some more instead of spending time on blogs.

    Mooz,
    I am very familiar with this topic. Thanks for the effort in explaining it to me. But I will not respond to it as this is not the place. You can go to debate page if you so like.

  106. Radha,
    ” equality means treating both men and women with respect”
    exactly and that is what Quran says (which I quoted earlier)

    I understand what you are saying about equality. Tell that to Wendy, please.

    If the quran says to hit, it does not mean you HAVE to hit. You have to see on what basis that verse came about. All verese came for a reason and they have a background. Certainly on has to use the brain. Unfortunately most men do not!

  107. AA said:

    “The prophet, the best of men, married Aischa when she was 6″

    However in her detailed study on the subject, she said “It is more logic that Aïscha was ”adult” when she married Mohammed” and now she is saying “6”.

    http://clouddragon.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/how-old-was-aicha/

    And:

    on this blog:
    Aafke, on January 22, 2009 at 3:03 pm said:
    ” … the age of Aïscha is generally taken as 8 years old when she married the prophet, but if you take into account historical facts, and what is known of her origin, she cannot have been that young but more probably must have been 15 or 17.

    She is abrogating her own posts just cos it suits her! :)

  108. And oh, sorry forgot to add:
    The west does not need religion for their women to be raped. Hordes per second.

  109. sorry, here is the correct link ….

    iowntheworld dot com/blog/?p=140551

  110. Good Morning, Sarah! Yes it’s morning for me. I will answer your question but firstly I want to make it clear that you are entitled to your religion as we are all entitled to our beliefs. I think many of us just want the inequality of women to stop and for women themselves to realize that they “are equal in the eyes of God and man” Now for my answer.

    Sarah, absolutely I have had fights with my husband and yes… Oh my God I even refused to have sex. Yep!!! Guess what though, he’s a big adult male who understood why I refused and got over it. He respects my body as not belonging to him but belonging to me. I am not required to be an obedient little puppy nor is he.I guess that’s why I like and identify with cats who will not be dominated and my husband also adores cats. I have also refused to do something he asked me to do when I thought it was stupid or unwise or something I was adverse to doing.
    Oh and Sarah, because he is a big strong adult man he does not go looking for another woman if I say I am tired or unwell or even annoyed with him because he is able to control himself. Ditto for me if I want sex and he is tired or unwell or annoyed with me I can accept that and control my desires until we are both in the mood.
    Regarding names, Sarah … you have no idea what my last name is or his last name for that matter. We do NOT have children and will never have children. We both work and both put money into the household. As a matter of fact I do own our house and I owned it when I met him. I do buy him special gifts for Valentines day and many other days and he reciprocates. I go out for an evening with friends and leave him to prepare his own dinner even. He also cooks for me (we share) does laundry and irons his own shirts and even mine sometimes, vacuums and does what ever chores need to be done. He works and I work. We SHARE! We have arguments, discussions, disagreements and can have lots of fun making up. That’s a healthy marriage between two adults who respect each other for who they are. Sometimes I give 90% to the relationship, sometimes he does but that is a healthy relationship.

  111. And a very good morning to you too, Wendy. Hope your day goes bright and cheery.

    I appreciate your honest reply. And I do wish you continued happiness in your marriage.

    Wendy, dear, all marriages will have ups and downs – that is normal. Sharing the chores and all that are very normal. But to cheat on each other – now that is unacceptable. So if a wife does that (you did not address this issue) and the husband warns her not to do that and if she continues doing that – what should a husband do? Now I am talking about only the wife. She is disloyal to him.

    About the last names, you know very well what I mean. Why is it that people take the last name of the father or husband and not other way round. For example Tom Cruise married Kidman and so his name shld be Tom Kidman and then when he married Holmes, he should change it to Tom Kidman-Holmes. If both gender are perfectly equal, then why not this issue? That is what I was talking about. Sorry if my comment made you think that I was asking personally about your last name.

    In your reply, you talked about everything in general that happens in any household. So it is not something new. but remember one thing – man is a man whatever religion or ethnic background is.

  112. Sarah, I think the name thing is a very small issue. In Canada a wife can use whatever name she chooses and can even alternate. I can legally use my husband’s last name and/or my own. The name has absolutely nothing to do with equality.

    As to infidelity … still no reason to hit another person. For me I’m not so sure I could forgive it so it would probably result in divorce. I don’t know my husband’s views. We trust each other very much so it’s kind of a non-issue.

    Regarding your comment about a ‘man being a man’ … as I said in my previous post … a mature, adult man can and will control his sexual needs to be faithful to his partner. I am not a naive young woman but in my 6th decade so I have been around a lot and really understand men. My husband has very strong moral beliefs as do I. Adultery on either side is not acceptable for any reason. What if I became ill or he became ill for a long period? We would both expect the other to remain faithful. There are options to not having sex with another you know so men AND women in a position of forced abstinence in a relationship having many means of easing the tension without running out to find another man or woman. Forget what you have been programmed to think and start thinking about how you can best respect yourself and your body as your body is yours and yours alone. It is not a possession. You should not feel you are owned, or possessed by or controlled by another person. You ARE equal to a man in every way. Men and women are different but equal!

  113. And they’re off to the Olympics!!! After heavy pressure (threat to disallow men from KSA to compete) two women are going to compete!
    Baby steps!!!!

  114. A muslim,

    sorry i don’t understand your comment, thanks anyway yes i do have a divine heart :-) Im more concerned about it being healthy …
    thanks i’ve read the koran , know a bit about it and quite happy to stay on my side, don’t feel a need to follow the koran.

  115. I find it interesting that the muslims on here arguing about wife beating do not comment on why god saw fit to include such a ayat in the quran to begin with. More along the lines of…just cause it’s there doesn’t mean you have to…or…it’s only meant to be light tapping etc (though it doesn’t say that…you have to go outside the quran to find out how exactly to beat your wife).

    A JUST god would NOT give one gender the right to physically correct the other gender simply because the first one got upset by the actions of the second. There is NO justice in that…only abuse. Are you saying that because the right of “tapping” your wife is included then god advocates domestic abuse…because if god does not advocate domestic abuse then god would not have included such an ambigous ayat that would be used against muslim women since the time of the prophet to abuse them, demean them, and relegate them to nothing more than children that needed correction in the eyes of their husbands (not that children should be beaten either)…and imams on tv giving exact instructions on how to do it is completely digusting and should qualify the tv station that airs it for revoking of it’s license.

    How anyone can defend this ayat, no matter what degree of “tapping” is indicated, is disgusting and barbaric. Religion should NOT be used to abuse, period. The fact that every one of the Abrahamic religions does NOTHING but abuse women indicates they are nothing more than tools for men to do what they want to women…with “god’s” permission.

  116. “We know that in life in any situation, there is always a leader if not there will be conflicts. Every house has a leader, every city/town/village/, every country, every society/group/business …etc has someone in charge. If not there will be chaos. So in a family household, the husband is the head and he should use his position with respect and kindness. If there is some disagrement, then it should be resolved in peace. The “hitting” part comes only in extreme cases and as a last-est resort and that only if it will help in the matter – if not then it is not to be executed. It is not that he should be hitting her all the time. ”

    While in the business world a leader is often needed, in personal intimate /family relationships between adults, there does not need to be a leader. No, there will not be chaos. Instead the 2 adults have to learn and understand each other’s strengths and be able to learn from one another, defer to the other person’s areas of more knowledge or skill.

    A marriage is not just an intimate partnership but learning together in humility towards one another and in expressing appreciation. It really is a relationship of equals. Many people in the happiest marriages say that their partner is their best friend..and friends are never leaders over another person.

  117. Thanks for the video clip bigstick, by the National Geographic photo journalists. Informative.

  118. Jean:

    It is informative and shows the complications to eradicating some of the inequities. The best thing will always be education and critical thinking. The question is how to get this to those who need it the most as generally someone is benefitting from the suffering and lack of education of these people. They are the one’s who generally put up the best fight and have a number of loyal individuals mostly due to stockholm syndrome or just plain fear.

  119. Sarah:

    Please define what a “man being a man” is? I always thought a man was one born with a penis. Past that men are very different in their inteliigence, self-confidence, etc.

    I am looking forward to what you mean though. :D

  120. Radha,
    Just a question, why not Islam?

    Coolred38,
    You are NOT here to insult Islam, if you any question ask it.
    First of all anyone who wants to comment about the holy Quran, see: http://quran.com/3/7

    and then:
    “And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them(your wives) – perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good.”

  121. Amuslim, because 1. I’m very satisfied with the religion I was raised in, I have no complaints 2. I find my current religion fairer than Islam without as many stringent rules .
    For me religion is for my peace of mind, when I go to a house of god I don’t want to be lectured to or Expected to pray a certain way. Maybe I just want to sit and pour out my troubles and walk away :-).

    I have nothing against Islam neither do I have any compelling reason to choose it. My husband is a Muslim and after living with him for over 2. Decades and also living in Saudi amongst Muslims and assosiated with quite a few of them I have not felt the call or the need to take it up. I also have many issues with it just like I do with my religion but the are pieces in it I don’t agree with :-).

  122. Radha, What pieces?
    I recommend you to read whole of Quran once, promise you never regret.
    See, my life story is as long as all stories you have red, just let me say it to you, despite all darkness and unbelieving, it was Quran which delivered me. And remember that our God and your God is one, one who complete holy religions by the ultimate Islam.

    Please read: Quran 5:82,83
    I think these two verses is adequate to convert Christians into Islam__although each verse in Quran remind any human of salvation.

  123. oh mah gawd! this “a muslim/reza” guy is out in full force on a mission to convert us to his religion. having gone thru some of his emails here (in broken english), especially to rada, he is openly doing that. i thought the moderator warned/reprimanded him to cease and desist. blessings …..

  124. Please read:
    Christopher Hitchins: ”God is not great (How religion poisons everything”
    and
    Richard Dawkins: ”The God Delusion”
    and
    Carl Sagan: ”The Demon haunted World”

    This will change most religious people into rational, productive human beings, and free them from the mind forged manacles of man-made religion.

  125. @a muslim –
    i have read the whole koran .. completeley and have had it explained to me by my uncle-in-law a very respected islamic scholar :-) so i’m well versed in it. thank you.

    inspite of it i dont feel it is for me ,like i said i’m very very happy with my current religion.

    no dawah reqd :-) my husband is muslim and after living with one for some 2 decades+ i don’t feel the need to follow islam.

  126. Aafke … I think it will be ‘in your dreams’ when more than an very few Muslims read those books. :)

    I have also read the English version of the Quran which is another book that reminds me why I do NOT belong to any organized religion. Each to his own though.


  127. A Muslim, this blog is not a place to proseletize. Do not press people in this way or you will be back in moderation.
    Louise, thanks for pointing this out.

  128. A Muslim…I suggest you get over your sensitive feelings as your idea of what constitutes an insult is far from accurate. Also, I do not need to ask questions about Islam…I’m quite up to speed on it…you, on the other hand, appear to need some education on the matter.

  129. The World Health Organization estimates that 97.3 percent of Egyptians women undergo the horrific and brutal practice of Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). Although the practice was made illegal in Egypt, FGM continues today, practically unabated, as reported in the video produced by the BBC.

    who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

  130. Wendy,
    Hope you are doing well.
    The name maybe a small issue but I am not sure you understand why I am talking about it. My reason for bringing it up is that the west keeps saying that men and women are equal but still it is very common for children to take up father’s name and wife, the husbands. You say in Canda a wife can use whatever name – that is not only in Canada, it can be done anywhere but I am not talking about your name, I am talking about the MAN’s name. Do men take wife’s name? I know this question is difficult for you to answer without generalizing it. I don’t need an answer, I just need you to realise.

    “As to infidelity … still no reason to hit another person. For me I’m not so sure I could forgive it so it would probably result in divorce.”

    And that Wendy, is what Islam says too- thank you. An man can warn a wife but a woman can up and leave him.

    Wendy, anything I say, I am not referring to your particular family.

    “a mature, adult man can and will control his sexual needs to be faithful to his partner”
    which world are you living in, Wendy. Please do not be so naive. Look around you and your next door neighbor country.

    ” There are options to not having sex with another you know ”
    I did not get this statement. What are those options?

    Men and women are different in that men need – need to release their sex – they just have to like we need to empty our bladders. Women do not have that need so women can control, but men can’t. You are thinking from a woman’s mind and that is normal.

    ” having many means of easing the tension without running out to find another man or woman”
    what are those means, Wendy?

    ” Forget what you have been programmed to think and start thinking about how you can best respect yourself and your body as your body is yours and yours alone”
    It is not program, it is just common sense.Yes I agree every one’s body is their own. And I can suggest the same to you and forget what you have been programmed to think. What makes you think I am and you are not.

    “Men and women are different but equal”
    You said it!

  131. Coolred38
    “I find it interesting that the muslims on here arguing about wife beating do not comment on why god saw fit to include such a ayat in the quran to begin with.”

    I could hug you for this. I was waiting for someone to ask and I thank you for bringing it up. I did not bring it on myself because if I did, it will be ignored unless it was asked by someone.

    The question is why is that ayah even there. Coolred38, all ayahs in the Quran came with a background and this is not no exception.If one honestly wants to understand the verses, one must study the history of those verses (unlike people here).

    In those days, (and even in these days) men were intensely jealous and this jealousy would often lead to fighting and killing. (As still happens in some places). So people started asking the Prophet (saas) what should they do if their wives flirted with men or were INTENTIONALLY disloyal. Thus these ayahs were revealed, and I do say – as a mercy to women – in that she is not totally disowned or killed (as in honor killing) but maintained with dignty by warning her twice and the third time with the tapping. This tapping is an indication that it is the last straw. Either she stops intenionally being disloyal or they can draw up an settlement for separation. Whereas previously, she was disowned or beaten up and thrown out or even murdered and this was disrespectble for the women and left her vulnerable. So you can judge which of the behaviors is more respectable for the women?

    These verses are NOT a permission for men to beat their wives at anytime that want. The only time he is allowed to do that is when she is intentionally disloyal or disobeys.

    And you are right, just because it is there does not mean that one HAS to beat his wife.

  132. Jean

    “While in the business world a leader is often needed, in personal intimate /family relationships between adults, there does not need to be a leader”

    Sorry, I do not agree with you. In the busines world, there are adults involved too. In all aspects our lives we see that for people to function well together they need to agree on who should be the leader. In other circumstances we can easily accept this arrangement, so why shld it be different in marriages. We accept the leader or one in charge of our community and we do not feel oppressed to submit to the laws of country or community. The man has the final word in the marriage but that does not mean that there is no mutual discussion before coming to a conclusion. As Carol was saying that this what used to happen with her too in her marriage. This certainly does not mean that man is a dictator in the marriage.

    If both husband and wife disagree and there is no leader, definately there will be chaos. Maybe this is what happens in the West – don’t know. If one realises that the other has the final word, then there is some kind of guideline and there is no chaos.

    “A marriage is not just an intimate partnership but learning together in humility towards one another and in expressing appreciation”

    Those are just words, Jean, do they actually happen? If so why are there so many break ups. Why are there so many diasgreements in the family and arguing … because there is no leadership, no specific guidline.

    Aside note, I have read somewhere in connection with gay partnership that one HAS to be the dominant one over the other even though they are same gender. One will be dominant over the other. THere was some interview with gay couples and all had one in charge of the other. This was in the States.

    Peace

  133. Radha,

    “I find my current religion fairer than Islam without as many stringent rules ”

    You find hindu fairer? Are you including the caste sytem, the untouchables, the burning of hindu widows, the killing of children to sacrifice for gods, the sexual hunger of hindu gods, people coming back after death as cockroaches?

    “when I go to a house of god I don’t want to be lectured to or Expected to pray a certain way. Maybe I just want to sit and pour out my troubles and walk away”

    You can do those things as Muslim too.There are certain ways to pray and it is form of meditation and one can also sit in house of worship and pour out his heart.

    The pieces you do not agree with are those which you do not understand.

  134. Sarah,

    I would like to make a self-confession and also pay you a compliment. As I read your comments in your different posts, I am damning you for your views/opinions (under my breath), while at the same time complimenting you for carrying on the conversation in a rational and respectful and calmer ways. Never once have I seen you get upset with any one or use “bad” words.

    I’ve been meaning to say this for a long time, and finally got the courage to say it ….

  135. hi moderator,

    “a muslim” is clearly calling for “beheading” (killing) of “all non-muslims”. i hope and pray that he is reported to the proper authorities. not sure where he lives. if in us, report it to fbi. if somewhere else, then to those countries’ equivalent of fbi. this is not a freedom of speech issue. it is about threatening to kill others. many times, these kind of looney tunes act on what they write and there are plenty of examples of that. it is good to be cautionary than ignoring his threat. thanks and blessings …

  136. A Muslim is back in moderation.

  137. Louise, to kill or subdue/enslave all non-believers is what the Quran/god/mohamed order Muslims to do.
    it’s always nice to see a Muslim admit that, instead of giving us the sugarcoated version.

  138. Hi, Rosemary. Thanks for your kind compliment but please do not damn me because I mean only good. :)

  139. Sarah, you need to get some really seriously good sex education. Firstly men do not HAVE TO have sex. They want to and so does a woman who has not repressed herself or has been been shown really good sex by her husband.
    Secondly, self gratification is a healthy thing.
    Thirdly, names are not important at all.
    Lastly, I pointed out to you that I am not a young person. I am a person with lots of life experiences and a person who is very familiar with men because I’m actually allowed to work with, mingle with, and socialize with them. I’ve also been married twice. You, my dear, are the naive one who has been told and sold a lot of lies to keep you in line. For that I am very sorry for you.

  140. In many countries a man may take the woman’s surname; it is not unheard of. It is not as common but done.

  141. I, too, am disturbed by “A Muslim’s” comment for it does come across as a threat.

    A Muslim – do you mean to imply that if one is not Muslim then they should be killed by beheading? Am I correct in that is what you are calling for?

  142. X-moozlum had difficulty in getting this comment posted so I am placing his text for him:

    As Aafke-Art has put it so eloquently about the condition of islamic countries today: ” …. they are all poor, mostly at war with somebody, their people are badly educated, they don’t produce much, certainly no technology, they do not invent anything ….”.

    Sadly, muslim ummah has been frozen in time since 610 AD indeed! I would like to share this graphic which totally illustrates Aafke’s point:

    http://www.iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=140551

  143. Look, why censoring my comments? Are you who claim about free speech? Are you claiming common politeness? Why do you not say anything to whom insults religions and the God?

    I said to be beheaded OR be under our authority(it constructs two part: accept Islam or pay Jazyia) See http://quran.com/9/29.

  144. Let me speak, hey who profess Freedom of Speech

    All first comments go automatically in moderation.
    Freedom of speech stops if you break the blog rules. You are a guest in somebody else’s space.
    Moderator

  145. I also had written a comment which disappeared?

  146. Wendy, I don’t think a good sex education will do anything if you keep denying it. I love biology, BTW. god made us humans in such a way that a couple match each other’s needs. It is just how we are.

    Watch this video. It is educational as well as very funny. And see what he says at the end.

    And also I read this from a guy:

    “Do you ladies understand that so much of it “forced” into us by our sex organs (balls) and its not just a simple matter of knocking it off… Men produce THOUSANDS of sperm per minute as opposed to ladies releasing ONE egg a month.. The biological urge to procreate and “spread the seed” can be almost as uncontrollable as expecting a woman not to cry…its biology..its hormones…its what makes us what we are”
    (answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080702195949AA6sYIH)

    You keep saying names are not important at all and I agree with you but you are missing the point what I am trying to make, intentionally or otherwise.

    Age does matter, Wendy. One can be naive at any age.:)

    American Bedu,
    I am interested to know which are those countries. Do you have any links? But I am sure those are not from West who say men are women are totally equal, are they?

  147. Sarah ,

    First of all I said it was my opinion I find my religion fairer than Islam. I didn’t say I was Hindu or that you would find it the same way. You think Islam is for you ast why you choose it, you think e ore religions are not for you likewise I don’t think Islam is for me inspire of knowing it pretty well and living and loving a Muslim. So end of that discussion.

    As for egg, sperm and needs. Oh boy … Is all I can say. You think what you have too we’ll go the scientific way.
    And after being married for over two decades I can say with MY experience that we don’t need a leader or partner in our family. But again let’s agree to disagree. You live with a leader we will live without one

  148. Sarah:

    Many Islamic websites which discuss marriage state that men can have more than one wife and even go further in stating that it is no for the wife to even know about another wife or get permission. In addition, societies have actually constructed society whereby women are at a disadvantage not due to anything other than a societal construct which was put into place to ensure gender apartheid, discrimination and a distinct advantage for men in order to control women.

    Now ask yourself this, why a woman does not finds the situation unacceptable in both cases and demands a level playing field which can be built on mutual respect and opportunity. In every country that has been allowed to succeed economically it has been due to unshackling women thus propelling society and humanity in a far better direction than by adhering to slavery values such as men are the keepers/protectors(more often than not abusers) of women.

    Women are adults just as men are and they are equally capable of engaging in life’s fullest potential with or without men. The reason they are not is not due to their inability, their emotional status, or their lack of physical strength. It is due to society constructing a societal prison which has pigeonholed/stereotype them and then shacked them by ensuring that they must adhere to the system which keeps them in poverty, subjected to abuse, and shamed by ensuring they will not be able to obtain financial independence due to the lack of employment skills or schooling by refusing access to both.

    Now on the inverse, men are also stereotyped into these positions and they are actually crafted not to actually be the protectors of women but in fact be the keeper’s (owner) of women by ensuring that they adhere to roles that have been defined by barbaric and brutal societies where might makes right and women are an object with as much value as a brood mare. Then societies try to place all the ribbons, flowers and perfume on a system of slavery, abuse, etc. in order to sell a shit/manure filled product.

    Some such fluff is, “women are like jewels, or flowers, or so other bull shit that limits a woman’s worth to a mere thing or pretty object which further objectifies and sexualizes women all the while demeaning her to a something less human or intelligent than a sentient grown capable viable thriving thinking human being.

    Wendy:

    I second your opinion.

  149. Sarah:

    You actually fell for that crap just shows your naviety.

  150. bigstick1
    “…In every country that has been allowed to succeed economically it has been due to unshackling women thus propelling society”

    But what has it done to the women. Where are her moral values. It has reduced her to being just sex objects on billboards, magazines …etc They feel the need to look good for the men even though she might be uncomfortable in high heels or that tight black dress. But she has to look good for the men. Where has that got her? In what way has she got respect?

    We believe that men and women are created for certain roles in society. They compliment each other.

  151. Sarah, I know a lot of men. I have never met a man who is that much of a weakling as you describe.

    The cure for poverty is the empowerment of women, to take women off the animal cycle of reproduction, and educate them, remove the shackles of ignorance and disease and everywhere in the world it is invariable the clergy that stands in it’s way.
    One of the most important goals of every religion is to keep women stupid and subjected.

  152. Sarah:

    First do you have a mouse in your pocket? Who are we?

    Next your argument is based on controlling a woman’s sexuality but a man’s sexuality is his own and he can do what he wishes but not a woman. This is a societal construct and it is a way in which certain factions chose to control women by using their sexuality against them ex., by calling them sluts, whores, etc.

    Now in reality men and women are sexual beings. Sexuality is not a crime or is it something to be ashamed of but acknowledged. In the west there is an issue of over-sexualized which needs to be addressed however going backwards to control women and men’s sexuality is not where any society needs to venture.

    It is to acknowledge that there are negative effects that being over-sexualized creates and then deal with it in mature grown up manner to which lessens objectifying people but doesn’t make what is a natural human function into a state of psychosis such as sex is the original sin crap or women ushered it in or it was due to sex that man got stuck here.

    Technically it is due to sex that we are here but not in the religious fall from heaven/Eden meant to control you baloney and make believe babble.

    In other words deal with the fact the men and women are sexual beings and that it is natural. Deal with the fact that men and women are MORE than the sum of their sex parts and one (men or women) does not rule the other. Each has a distinct sexual biological function for procreation with certain hardwired mechanisms in order to ensure the species thrives but past that there is little difference. Past this point a society could value all the positive points of what men and women bring to the table without subjugating one sex.

    Now I am not stating the men don’t have a high sex drive, they do and women just might have a better control of their sex drive to ensure a buy in on relationships in order to solidify a union that benefits women. However to say men cannot control their sexual drive where it doesn’t subjugate the other gender is just ludicrous.

    What you don’t understand is that if women wear nothing but black bags she has actually become even more sexualized as now there is NO acknowledgement of the person as the whole reason a woman is cover in this manner has turned her into a walking vagina and a man’ will now lust over the black bag to get to the vagina as now you are just seen be a sucker.

    In other words get the wrapper to get to the goods (vagina). You are playing a man’s game and women lose when playing this game. The reason is you immediately place yourself at a disadvantage because the wrapper (black awrah bag/religion adherence) is about controlling the female sex and keeping a known construct in place to ensure adherence that benefits men. You got it, we (guys) want it and we (guys) will control it even if it is to your detriment.

    At some point I hope you figure out that you are helping many men in playing the game. That game is the game of power and control of the goods and the goodies (vaginas).

    By the way many men lust more often times over the fully wrapped package than one that is not wrapped. This is because the wrapper adds fantasy and adventurer and then the bang.
    The biggest problem is that both men and women are acting like children and not growing up to face the fact that one of the sum parts of their being is sexuality and deal with it in a grown up fashion based on reality and not a child-like bully (might make right) manner which decimates or puts in a disadvantage for ½ of the population due to ignorance, superstition and selfishness (I want it, you got it, and I am going to ensure I trap and keep it – vagina).

  153. bigstick1,
    By “we”, of course I mean, we Muslims – the mouse could be muslim too who knows. :)

    I really do not understand what you are ranting about because I did not say anything about men and women not being sexual objects. I was just talking about how the genders needs are different. Is this a new topic? Are we done ith hitting/tapping?

    “Sexuality is not a crime or is it something to be ashamed of but acknowledged.”

    Never said it was.

    “Technically it is due to sex” – I agree

    “Each has a distinct sexual biological function for procreation with
    certain hardwired mechanisms in order to ensure the species thrives but past that there is little difference.”

    My point exactly – the video explains that, too.

    “However to say men cannot control their sexual drive where it doesn’t
    subjugate the other gender is just ludicrous”

    Didn’t say that. It is just a natural thing. if they supress it, nature
    deals with it.

    Not sure what you are sayng about the black bag. It is your thinking
    from reading the media too much. women are required to dress modestly and not in such as way so as to attract the attention of the opposite gender.

    “This is because the wrapper adds fantasy and adventurer and then the bang”

    What a funny, perverted way to look at it. Did you come up with it all by yourself? Get over it. Its what media wants you to think and your mind makes up the rest. The reality is far from it.

    Peace

    – now where did that mouse go.

  154. You, know, they did research on this and women have actually a higher sex drive than men. Especially between 25 and 35, the age you might be upgraded by some younger sex toy if you are unlucky and Muslim.
    Actually women are the ones who should be allowed additional sex partners if religions were actually realistic instead of a male conspiracy against women.

    Sarah, I do find it interesting to read your comments. You take any bullshit men tell you hook line and sinker. All this bull and you still think it’s reasonable, and you try to rationalize it. and even convince us of it. It’s too weird. Of course there is the religious bias, somebody tells you the invisible friend says this and that and what the invisible friend says is always true and good therefore whatever nonsense it is, and however unreasonable it is, must be the truth.
    Fascinating to see this actually in real life.
    Now I don’t know much about your situation. I think it’s very probable that your husband is the more intelligent, and more reasonable one in the marriage.

    But I found it rather difficult to find a man who matches my level of intelligence.
    More intelligent is hardly possible of course.
    Let’s face it: I am way more intelligent than most of the men I meet. So had I given up and settled for something less, I would would have been the brains of the operation and he should listen to me. And obey me, and be loyal to me, because I am the brains, I know best.
    So I would have been the one ”tapping” or slapping my husband around…

    That’s what’s so weird, Islam/the Quran/Mohammed/God makes the huge mistake of taking it for granted that every human with a penis, be he ever so dimwitted, is yet by default more intelligent than any and all women.
    God and Mohammed got that wrong big time.
    One wonders where the omnipotence comes in…. you never see a proof of it, only fail after fail.

  155. Insulting the religions is not breaking your alleged rules?

    MUSLIMS’ SUPERIORITY

  156. Sarah, I was prepared to agree with you comment in general up until I read the whole “men need more sex” b,s, There is absolutely no proof that men need more sex then women…and the commentor that said this is a fact because they produce so much sperm…seriously? Unused sperm is simply absorbed back into the body…the man doesn’t go crazy or go on a sex rampage or anything like that. His body is busy absorbing countless sperm every day….while he goes about his day.

    You are defending a misconception that is used against women to control their sexuality while giving license to men to express theirs any way they choose. Yes, religions “say” both sexes should control themselves…but then give men more…so how are men being controlled when they get to have a buffet while women must stick to one measly meal her entire life (or at least during that particular marriage).

    You are busy defending patriarchy…so sad….but if it works for you, great…but don’t then point a finger of self righteousness at those women who fail to submit to the notion that their sexuality is meant to be limited while men get free reign…because they make sperm. Whatever.

  157. Muslimsdf:

    How can make believe be insulted?

  158. Sarah:

    There is nothing wrong with fantasy or adventure in sex life, there is nothing perverted about it. It is a healthy sexual attribute for both men and women. What is wrong is when society uses this (sex or sexual drive) against one gender in a manner that states your body is the reason for fitna and must be covered and controlled by men. Apparently you are not good at figuring out the obvious or you really believe that you are an awrah.

  159. Muslimsdf, (or Reza/A muslim), one can insult a person, but one cannot insult a ”religion”. Religion is just a set of man-made rules, it’s an ideology. One cannot ”insult” an ideology.
    You choose to be insulted as a person because you identify with an ideology. That’s your problem.
    I don’t like the ideology for good reasons, for the lies, the inconsistencies, the immorality, the evil it causes.
    I am free to argue against an ideology, there’s a bunch of other bad ideologies I can argue against, like nazism.

    Look, it’s just an ideology. And there is more bad in it than good. And the ideology makes huge mistakes all the time. Right now the subject is men are better than women. The ideology is wrong about that. It’s a fact. Facts are not insulting.

  160. Moderator’s update,
    For those who had trouble uploading comments. A few people got into spam. Sorry about that, I think I got everybody out.

    ‘Muslimsdf’, ‘A Muslim’ and ‘Reza’ are one and the same. Reza you also had two very bad comments in spam. You are very close to being banned. Shadow accounts are forbidden. One more like this and you are banned.

  161. AB Moderator:

    Now you have my curosity up. How bad is it and can it educate the rest of us on just how far a disciple of islam will go……………. :twisted:

  162. A muslim:

    Apparently your are spliting off into a multiple personality disorder.

    :D

    This is religion………… A muslim……..this is A (meaning one) person on religion………………….. A muslim, Reza, and Muslimsdf.

    See the problem. :twisted: :D

  163. Okay comments are going into cyberspace here as well.

    Hello was a test.

  164. Yes Sorry. We do not know why some comments get put into spam right. The moderators know. We can only check the folder from time to time. Some bug in WordPress.

  165. Hmmmm…….I guess I should start checking my spam as well maybe a system wide problem.

  166. I do not understand what is happening with word press, the blog platform in regards to eating comments.

    Sarah – please reask me your question in about 4 days. I’m sorry to say that it is beyond me at the moment to actively participate as I’m feeling poorly.

  167. Sarah, I’m feeling sad for you. How many men have you known? Are you even married? Have you ever conversed with men other than your immediate family? Do you even know how a normal healthy (both physically and mentally) man functions? I know you don’t so I feel sad for you.

  168. Sorry to here that AB. You have moderators. Let them take the reins for a while. Rest and come back fiesty. I’m looking forward to a disagreement session later.

    Take care, Carol.

  169. Hello folks. Hope you are all doing good today.

    I am kind of disappointed at the comments. What can I say? I cannot believe that when science and pyschologists all say that men need sex more, you still attribute my comments to “programming” or how many men I had been with or if I ever talked to men. Really Sad!

    “Do men really have stronger sex drives than women?

    Well, yes, they do. Study after study illustrates that men’s sex drives are not only stronger than women’s, but much more straightforward. The sources of women’s libidos, by contrast, are much more difficult to pin down.” – webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare

    “Men want sex more often than women at the start of a relationship, in the middle of it, and after many years of it,” Baumeister concludes after reviewing several surveys of men and women. This isn’t just true of heterosexuals, he reports: gay men also have higher frequency of sex than lesbians at all stages of the relationship. Men also say they want more sex partners in their lifetime, and are more interested in casual sex.

    Men are more likely to seek sex even when it is frowned upon or even outlawed:

    About two-thirds say they masturbate, even though about half also say they feel guilty about it, Laumann says. By contrast, about 40% of women say they masturbate, and the frequency of masturbation is smaller among women.
    Prostitution is still mostly a phenomenon of men seeking sex with women, rather than the other way around.
    Nuns do a better job of fulfilling their vows of chastity than priests. Baumeister cites a survey of several hundred clergy by Sheila Murphy in which 62% of priests admitted to sexual activity, compared to 49% of nuns. The men reported more partners on average than the women.

    ….” – Roy Baumeister, a social psychologist at Florida State University

    I have heard these same from medical TV programs many times too. My comments are based on these and not on being programmed. I am not some kind of zombie.

    Sorry for long copy/paste but I have to prove my point. I can paste a whole list of links.

  170. American Bedu,
    Sorry to hear that. You take care and come back rested. Need you here. :)

  171. Aafke,

    “they did research on this and women have actually a higher sex drive than men”

    Do you can thing to prove that?

    Coolrede38,
    Interesting what you commented.
    There is nothing patriarchal about what I am saying. Your people of science say the same thing. Are they patriarchal too?

    bigstick1
    There is nothing pervert about that but what you think of bags is.
    It is nothing like that in reality. It is what media makes up. You should not take it up so seriously and need to separate cutlure and religion. Yes older generations will wear bags but you don’t see younger generations with those. Some decades ago, women used to cover the face with something that batman would wear. Some still do in remote villages.

    I am talking about Islam and not culture. Please understand that.

    Wendy,
    I understand that you are frustrated and cannot really back up what you are saying. For that you keep saying you are sad for me. Well don’t be. I know what I am talking about. And right – you don’t know me. However I will suggest to you that when you come across new info, research it. It not only educates you but you also share that knowledge constructively. That is just my suggestion. Take it or leave it – up to you.

    In my previous comment I meant to say “Age does NOT matter”. Missed the “not”.

    Thanks for the talk and peace to you.

  172. Who Wants Sex More, Men or Women? Do women really want sex as much as men?

    If any of you men are wondering why your gal isn’t as enthused about sex as you it’s probably because … are you ready? The sex is all about you, not her. Women would like sex to have a beginning, middle and end.

    Instead, she gets the all-about-the-man sex — you clutch and grab her three hot spots, she hopefully has an orgasm and if not, oh well, there’s always next time, and then it’s on to you (finally!!!). After a few months of that old and tired routine other things bring more stimulation, like reading a romance novel. :)-

    It’s not rocket science: Estrogen is far more powerful on female sexual desire than testosterone could ever hope to be. Think of when a woman is having her horny day. Heaven help the husband if he doesn’t pull through on a booty-call.

    Men have two to 20 times more testosterone than women, but this does not mean men have 20 times the sex drive. A higher level of testosterone is needed for male sexual desire than for women.

    Read the rest of the article here:

    http://www.hitchedmag.com/article.php?id=741

  173. sarah and rosemary – i don’t believe there is “a” answer to sex drive between men versus women. there is there a lot of research, both pro and con on the topic. both equally validated and equally peer reviewed. each side can pick and choose the study which supports their pov and cite it in their defense. i am giving a link to psychology today mag below, which (i think) gives a somewhat balanced view on the subject:

    ” ….. Men take more risks and incur more costs for sex. (Remember Bill Clinton & Monica!). Men want sex more often than women, whether one is talking about young couples or people who have been married to the same person for forty years. Men also want more different partners than women want, and men like a greater variety of sex acts than women do.

    After months of reading and compiling results, the answer was clear. There is a substantial difference, and men have a much stronger sex drive than women. To be sure, there are some women who have frequent, intense desires for sex, and there are some men who don’t, but on average the men want it more. Every marker we could think of pointed to the same conclusion. Men think about sex more often than women do. Men have more sexual fantasies, and these encompass more different acts and more different partners.

    In short, pretty much every study and every measure fit the pattern that men want sex more than women. It’s official: Men are hornier than women.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cultural-animal/201012/the-reality-the-male-sex-drive

    blessings …..

  174. And that there is my point …

    I wonder why there is greater percentage of men raping women than vice versa?

  175. Sarah, sex drive has nothing to do with men straying if they don’t get sex on demand. You need to learn that. A mature, loving adult male will not act like a child. I really mature, loving adult man will learn to be a skilled lover and that will make his wife possibly want sex more often than he can give it. A mature, loving man will also understand that any pressure put on his wife to have sex will harm her mentally if not physically.
    I know you have little experience dealing with men. I understand what you’ve been taught so enjoy your world. I certainly enjoy mine and I would not put up with yours.

  176. Sarah:

    No I don’t think the believing the abaya looks like a bag is perverted.

    I think it is a blood soaked oppressive symbol that has been the cause of death for many women. In my view it represents hate, murder and suppression and I actually find it repulsive and sickening.

    So apparently you don’t live in Saudi.

    By the way many men do find the abaya sexy for the reasons I describe. Each to there own on sexual fantsay.

  177. bigstick1
    Listen, in KSA people wear what they want just ppl in the West wear what they want. You ppl underdress and we overdress. I thought you believed in freedom for all. So if they wear bags, as long as it does not physically harm you, what is it to you? If you find it repulsive and sickening, don’t look. You can look at those bikini clad ppl. :)

    I wanted to say something before but it slipped my mind. We believe (by we I mean Muslims, including them mouse) that towards the end of time, what is good will seem bad and what is bad will seem good. It appears to me that we are living the predicted days.

  178. Wendy

    “sex drive has nothing to do with men straying if they don’t get sex on demand”

    but it can be.I did not say all men become like animals.

    “loving adult man will learn to be a skilled lover and that will make his wife possibly want sex more often than he can give it. A mature, loving man will also understand that any pressure put on his wife to have sex will harm her mentally if not physically”

    Yes I agree with you. Its those men who are irresponsible who abuse women. But from what I pasted from your own ppl of science, I hope you get my point and maybe opened your eyes a bit.

    I think we have strayed from what we were discussing. Anyway it was interesting discussion. Thanks for that.

  179. Sarah:

    Because they have no choice they are forced to wear it. It would be one thing if it was a choice. It takes on a different light when it is not. This is why there is a difference. THERE IS NO FREEDOM. It is this that I find repulsive and what it tells women about their body as well as men.

    Next Sarah. You need to start researching your religion more on the different interpretations as well as the textual anomalies then do some research into the different scholars.
    Here are a few books you can read.

    The Qur’an in its Historical Context edited by Gabriel Said Reynolds – Routledge Studies in the Quran

    Textual Criticism and Qur’an Manuscripts by Keith E. Small

    The Hidden Origins of Islam edited by Karl –Heinz Ohlig and Gerd R. Puin

    The Development of Exegensis in Early Islam by Herbert Berg

    Off topic some what (What about the men).

    http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/156194/what_about_the_men_why_our_gender_system_sucks_for_men%2C_too/?page=entire

    Last thing. If you believe in the teachings to the end of time and the end game……………

    Don’t you think you owe it to yourself to research it to the fullest to ensure that what you follow is correct and not misinterpreted or altered or even left out because it cannot be deceiphered?

    I ask you to read these and start with the book from Small, then read the last chapter a couple of times, then think about it. Then read the rest.

    You are an intelligent person I have no doubt in you abilities to comprehend some very dry and textually critical analysis of the existing manuscripts. Don’t forget to study the history.

    Enjoy.

  180. In KSA the only women who wear what they want are the ones that want to wear abayas.

  181. bigstick1,
    I respect your opinion. however I did tell you to separate culture/ land rules from religion. And my point of being here is only for Islam. Maybe some are forced and some are not. There are many girls you can see in the malls who do not wear those “bags” and some have no head cover. If you watch Saudi TV, you can see big difference from what you are visualising.

    I don’t need to start researching my religion more. I am a student of comaparative religion and have been for the last few years when I have done extensive research in major world religions and have written projects (all through help of my Creator). As for my religion I have been studyng in depth since 1998 and accepted it whole-heartedly. But I sincerely thank you for the reading list and I will try to pick those books up. Maybe after Ramadan as these are busy days.

    Yes I do owe it to myself to research it to the fullest and that is what I have already done.

    Also thanks for having no doubt about my intelligence because when I looked last time I was showing my “naviety” with some “crap”. :)

    Peace

  182. Sandy, excellent comment

  183. Sarah:

    Naivety and intelligence are separate items. One can be both.

    However, the best I think I can achieve with you is to be less extreme by providing additional research. :D

    I look forward to future discussion on the matter particular on your assessment of the reading material.

    Enjoy: :)

    I too have done a great deal of studies in comparative religions and historical/archeological studies. I draw may conclusions based upon my studies and reason.

    May you have success in your practice of Ramadan

    Peace

  184. Thank you, bigstick1, I appreciate it.

  185. I also agree with RC about Sarah’s very pleasant debating style. I don’t agree with her take on almost any and all issues. But she always carries herself with pomp and grace. I have seen others hurl and dish out unpleasant stuff her way (myself included) but she always answers all questions/concerns in a very cool, calm and collected way.

    Hell, I have even seen her telling others to go to hell very tactfully without having ever even actually say it. I wish I will learn to be that way one day :)-

  186. So it was nice debating, Sarah!

  187. Thanks Honest Abe, it means a lot. :)

    Yes, Wendy, I did enjoy debating with you and learnt some.

    Peace to you both.

  188. Here’s a VERY informative article on “Real War On Women In The Middle East” BY MONA ELTAHAWY

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/04/23/why_do_they_hate_us

  189. I believe men have more inherent aggression due to testosterone…and sex is an easy release for it…thus the whole men want more sex then women. No…I believe they want to release those aggressive feelings and one way, one enjoyable way, is through sex. Women are less aggressive due to less testosterone….but we still want sex. Some of us more than others…but we generally want a different kind of sex then men. We want (generally speaking) quality over quantity…while men (generally speaking) want quantity. All those surveys point to one thing…yes men think of sex more, and possibly are more likely to engage in sex more…simply because they might not be asking for a whole lot from sex itself. Easy to get what you want when you set the bar so low. Women think of sex too (we certainly talk as if we do…and yes…even muslim women do…a lot)…yet we aren’t always prepared to just have sex for sex sake…so we probably have far less than we really want. Doesn’t mean we don’t want it all the time…just means we aren’t always willing to settle for less than what we want.

    So say I.

  190. Sarah, on July 14, 2012 at 9:02 am said: ” …. all ayahs in the Quran came with a background and this is not no exception. If one honestly wants to understand the verses, one must study the history of those verses (unlike people here)…..”.

    Sarah,

    I have been meaning to ask you about this but then forgot. From my study of koran, it says in quite a few places that koran is mubeen or clear. My question is that if allah said this, then why muslims have to write dissertations behind each verse? Isn’t allah’s word sufficient enough? Don’t muslims trust their allah?

    Sarah, I don’t mean to be disrespectful or rude to you or islam by asking this question. This question has been nagging at me for a while and nobody has been able to give me an adequate answer.

    Thx in advance!

  191. RAPE AND MURDER CASES IN USA/SAUDI

    1990-1999:

    USA :

    YEAR MURDER RAPE
    ———————–
    Total 389480 2006093
    Per Year 18547 95528
    Per Month 1546 7961
    Per Day 52 265

    SAUDI :

    YEAR MURDER RAPE
    ———————–
    Total 78 25
    Per Year 4 1
    Per Month 0.310 0.099
    Per Day 0.01 0.003

    2000-2010:

    USA :

    YEAR MURDER RAPE
    ———————–
    Total 595919 2871732
    Per Year 59592 261067
    Per Month 4966 21756
    Per Day 166 725

    SAUDI :

    YEAR MURDER RAPE
    ———————–
    Total 82 22
    Per Year 8 2
    Per Month 0.683 0.167
    Per Day 0.023 0.006

    Don’t make comments in capitals, this is rude, like shouting at people.
    Moderator

  192. Azad:

    When Saudi actually starts keeping stats then I will take this seriously until then it is just like everything else in Saudi – hidden.

    Next when giving stats – provide you source.

    Next the entire united states population is approximately the same if not slightly more than the entire population of the middle east.

  193. Azad Shah Saab,

    The stats that you put up are nothing but junk. It is like comparing date juice to martini. We all know saudis don’t keep much of stats nor the victims report it because of family honor and fear of honor killings. So just go away :)-

  194. Azad, you are making a joke right? The less rights and the less respect women get in a culture the more they will get raped and killed.
    Read what Wafa Sultan has to say about treatment of women in Islam in her book ”The God who hates”.
    If there were trustworthy statistics of Saudi they would not only be #1 in car deaths, but also #1 in rape and murder of women.

    And why do you post something so far off topic anyway?
    It’s a logical fallacy to point somewhere else and them claim because there is some crime in other parts of the world it is ok to commit them yourself.
    Don’t you see how silly this is?

  195. @AA, I am not supporting any kind of crime but fed up with hypocrisy of people. U guys are not in anyway want to uplift suffering Muslim women or Muslim but make fun of them in every single second. By they way do u guys know SINGLE good thing abt Islam/Muslim?

  196. @Honest Abe,

    WHo are those who are hanged for rape/murder in Saudi?

  197. Azah:

    So how are you helping suffering Muslim women?

    Why don’t you provide some good things about Islam. I know some muslims who are nice but I don’t care for Islam.

  198. Azah:

    http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html

    United State Population over 313 million. Undocumented workers/Illegal immigrants somewhere between 11 and 22 million.

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/middle-east-and-north-africa/population-total-wb-data.html

    The population of north africa and the middle east just over 331 million people.

    This is to give you a comparison of population.

  199. Azad: “WHo are those who are hanged for rape/murder in Saudi?”

    Almost always nonSaudi/nonArabs…

  200. Azad, please share some uplift then. Because one sure doesn’t get much from reading Arab news outlets.

  201. Although, wasn’t this news item some uplift? Saudi women are fighting abuse and centers for women are being established?
    That’s good news isn’t it?
    Except of course that an estimated 95% of them have been abused in some way…

    Are you, Azad, doing anything to support these centers? do you donate or anything? That would be constructive and positive.
    Or are you supporting Saudi women by denying any of them are abused, need help, and a place of safety and full human rights?

  202. Yes but what the statistics of women raping me?

  203. Rosemary, Hi,
    I did not see your question up there. Since your question does not relate to this post, I will repy in the debate page. :)

  204. Sarah:

    This actually does happen however it is very infrequent. I believe this year the US added a criteria of male rape. It is estimated at about 10% of the rape victims are men. However the majority of the offenders are men as well.

  205. bigstick1
    Thanks for the info. Yes it is very rare for women to rape men and even if she did, it would be because of some pent up anger and she would not be lurking in dark corners to catch an unsuspecting man strolling in the park. She would have better things to do at home.

  206. I think Sarah was asking what the chances are of a woman raping her? It definitely can and does happen. Not so often but it can certainly happen.

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