Saudi Arabia: I’m not a Muslim. Can I host an Iftar?

Ramadan, the holy month of fasting from sunrise to sunset, is less than a month away.  During that time, all Muslims who are able will fast without food or water from sunrise to sunset.  As a result, iftar, the breaking of the fast at sunset, is an important time and occasion.

Iftar is also an occasion that Muslims and non-Muslims can experience together.  Many Muslims are happy to share their iftar with a non-Muslim.  But, can a non-Muslim host an iftar for a Muslim friend or family?  Absolutely!

A Muslim would likely feel honored to be invited to an iftar on their behalf by a non-Muslim.  Such an invitation is a beautiful way to build bridges and further understanding between Muslims and non-Muslims.

However, there are some key ground rules a Non-Muslim must know if planning to host an iftar dinner.  First and foremost is that timing is critical.  While non-Muslims may be accustomed to Muslim friends showing up late for activities, iftar is the one occasion guaranteed that a Muslim will be punctual if not a few minutes early.  Therefore, it is imperative on the non-Muslim host to have iftar ready at the exact time the sun is setting.

The iftar should first begin with dates, Arabic kawa, vemto and water.  Remember, your Muslim guest has gone  throughout the day with no feed and water so you want to offer some quick substance which will provide energy and quench the thirst.  The dates, Arabic kawa and vemto can all be found in any Middle Eastern grocery store.

To further set the appropriate mood while breaking the fast, have the dates, Arabic kawa, vemto and water set out attractively on a tablecloth on the floor.  Be sure to have little bowls with water for rinsing fingertips and small bowls or cups for the pits of the dates.  Arabic kawa should be served in the traditional small cups.  Vemto can be served into a standard juice glass whereas water can be provided from the bottle.

Some Muslims will want to excuse themselves for prayer after the initial breaking of fast.  It is helpful if the host knows in advance which direction is Makkah.  While the Muslim guests pray, the next course of iftar can be readied for serving.

Speaking from my Saudi family’s tradition, the next course would be a simple soup such as a dahl soup or lentil soup.  After all, when one has fasted all day you want to replenish the body gradually.  Arabic salad and small plates of pickled vegetables can also be served either with the soup or with the main course.  I also would have several varieties of sambosas served with the soup too.

The main course(s) during Ramadan can vary depending on the time of the year and how hot or cold it is.  Favorite Ramadan meals include jeerish and garcan.  A baked chicken with rice and French fries would also be appropriate.  In my Saudi family we’d usually have no less than two main courses from which to choose.  Baked chicken also went well with lasagna or a baked spaghetti casserole.  The main meal would also have sides of vegetables and bread.  During Ramadan, it is also common to serve main dishes using lamb.  

After the main dish has been consumed it will probably be time again for prayers.  While the Muslims pray, the non-Muslims can prepare for the after dinner tea and dessert.  During Ramadan tea is served usually a little sweeter than typical and piping hot.  It can be accompanied by a dessert of baklava or cheesecake or any other favorite Arab sweet.  A local Middle Eastern grocery store will offer fresh baked sweets during Ramadan.

American Bedu encourages non-Muslims to reach out and host an iftar for their Muslim friends.  I can be emailed directly at admin@americanbedu.com for specific advice.

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184 Responses

  1. Praise the Lord. I would add a couple of items to this:

    1) make sure any meat you serve is hand-slaughtered (i.e. zabiha halal, or at very least kosher if specifically zabiha halal meat is not available in your area);

    2) don’t even think of using any ingredient of porcine (i.e. pig) origin. No pork, lard, bacon – nothing of the kind;

    3) make sure that no item or ingredient on the menu contains alcohol and that no alcohol was used in preparing any item (it’s not acceptable even if all the alcohol has boiled away during cooking). You’d be surprised where it can show up: in cakes at the bakery (it’s often used in small amounts for the consistency of the dough or as a rising agent instead of yeast, and even more often as a flavoring agent in the icing),, ice cream, mustard, certain types of vinegar… if there isn’t a label, or it’s not clear from the label,, ask to make sure no alcohol was used in making the item.

    Somewhere on the Internet – don’t remember offhand at the moment where – there is a utility using Google Maps which allows you to determine the direction of Makkah very precisely, even down to your exact apartment building and your exact entrance to a large building.

  2. PS About ingredients of porcine origin: gelatine is a very common ingredient in many foods, and it is usually made of pigs’ feet. There are others as well. All ingredients must be checked. If the item is halal or kosher certified, it will be free of such items.

  3. It is all o k what is said above in the comments. I am not against hosting Iftar by the Non-muslims but why to bother to check all ingredients of the food preparation and I feel it is embarassement for the host as well. So I say to avoid with thanks. Moreover the prayers in that atmosphere is not advisable as some IDOLS might be sitting in the house of the host. It will be insult to the host if asked to remove them.
    So I will say thanks to the host and stay for IFTAR at home. Every action must be respectfully carried out.

  4. There may even be dogs in the house!
    Imagine!
    I would certainly advise against accepting a generous and honest invitation for iftar from one of those nasty impure infidels, you may pollute your own immaculate non-idolatrous purity…

  5. Or maybe you host is a woman, or owns a woman, who does not cover her sinful hair! Just imagine how you will pollute yourself by looking at so much fitnah!

  6. Sami, You misunderstand me. I mean that the non-Muslim host must check all of these things before serving anything to a Muslim. And you are right to mention the idol issue. It is a good idea for a non-Muslim to offer to host Iftar only if they are sure that their house (or at very least all areas thereof that will be occupied by Muslims at any time during the evening’s festivities) contain no items that could be considered idols.

    So, for the information of the non-Muslim reader: aside from religious symbols pertaining to non-Islamic religions, the category of idols can include even photographs of any human or animal, especially if the entire figure of the human or animal is portrayed. And certainly photographs of persons not dressed according to the rules of hijab should not be displayed in non-private areas of the home.

    Another thing: it will be difficult or impossible to meet Islamic standards if you have furry pets wandering freely through your home. This especially concerns dogs, as nearly all observant Muslims consider them to be unclean. The biggest problems here are that

    1) A Muslim must pray in clothes that have not touched animals or their fur. The same concerns the surface that the person prays on. So if you have pets, the Muslim guests will need to bring a complete change of clothes and have facilities to change their clothes and make wudhoo (ritual washing before prayer). And you will need to provide a pet hair-free prayer surface for them as well. If they bring their own prayer rugs, that would suffice, but it would be a nice touch to have a suitable number of prayer rugs available.

    2) A Muslim cannot pray – even accidentally – in the direction of any animal. It is considered idolatry. So that means that either there needs to be an enclosed, animal-free prayer area, or the animals need to be enclosed at least during the prayer time so they will not accidentally walk in front of those who are praying.

    3) And in the case of dogs, many Muslims believe that physical contact with dogs is to be avoided even outside of prayer times, as it makes one unclean. So dogs should probably be confined for the duration of the evening.

    Since we have mentioned hijab: the non-Muslim should make sure that all non-Muslims present are aware of the standards of hijab, so that all are dressed properly in a manner that will be acceptable to the Muslims being invited, and know how to behave properly. Hijab is much more than just how one dresses.

    So, in particular, the following behavioral principles should be kept in mind:

    no touching members of the opposite sex outside of one’s immediate family, except for medical necessity,

    no being alone with a member of the opposite sex outside of immediate family in an enclosed space, except for medical necessity,

    no eye contact with members of the opposite sex outside of immediate family,

    a cordial but formal tone of voice, avoiding unnecessary speech to members of the opposite sex outside of immediate family.

    Indeed, some Muslims will be pleased if the non-Muslim makes the effort to entertain males and females in different rooms. if you know any of your guests maintain a separated household, this would be a good signal to do likewise while they are in your home. It is also necessary to be aware of the Muslim guests’ convictions concerning such things as music. Some find all forms of music objectionable, some find some forms acceptable and some not.

    The non-Muslim should take great care in finding out the rules, discuss all of these issues discreetly and well in advance with the intended guests to find out what their convictions are, so it is clear that all details have already been taken care of when the invitation is issued. You could couch it in terms of a question ‘Let’s say we were to attempt to make over my home so that it fits Islamic standards. What would you recommend?’

  7. And with one short comment, Sami completely destroys the whole purpose of Ramanda for muslims. Amazing.

  8. Ramadan rather. Darn :(

  9. Will you all stop this nonsense already! I am Muslima born & bread this is plain madness. Who of you can tell me that there are no pictures of people in Muslims’ houses or near where they pray. Why do non-Muslims have to cover up? Y’all must be playing, right?

  10. after reading carol’s post, i was getting so excited to invite my saudi neighbors for dinner during their upcoming fasting month. But after reading comments from caraboska and sami, no thank you, i am not gonna go through all that hell just to experience a “beautiful way to build bridges and further understanding between Muslims and non-Muslims”. I will have to find other ways to do that.

    i don’t wanna spend close to two days disinfecting my house of dog/cat hair, banishing my pets, hiding pictures and statutes of lord jesus and mother mary, bibles, crosses, etc. that’s just too much to expect. it takes the whole fun out of breaking bread with neighbors.

    i have been to muslim homes for dinners, etc. never once i have “demanded” that they take off koran verses, pictures of kaaba,
    etc. from their walls. it will simply be too rude of me even to think that.

    oh well. i am done for now …

    oh one more thing: up until now, i didn’t realize the muslim religion was so restrictive. it controls every aspect of your life from going to the bathroom to inviting your neighbors for dinner. oh well. thank god i was not born a muslim :)-

  11. I think all these food restrictions are over the top, it’s just another trick of religions to keep control.
    And I have Muslim friends who have no problem with me using a bit of wine in the cooking. I asked. Not all Muslims are as deranged and neurotic to be ” polluted” by the ”unbelievers” as Sami is.

  12. So no one misunderstands, I am not a Muslim. What I have written represents my personal conviction about the considerate way to treat people of different religions. Others may have different convictions, some Muslims may have different convictions as well.

    But it is necessary to find out – one can’t just assume it will all be OK. It is very true that the Islamic religion is a way of life that affects all aspects of that life. One could say the same thing about Orthodox Judaism and even properly practiced Christianity (which while it has less in the way of ‘rules’ than other religions, draws the line in one’s heart in such a way that the standard ends up being even stricter).

    It is my impression that if a particular potential guest is not satisfied that they will be able to practice the principles of their religion without hindrance while in your home, their religion (regardless of that religion) will encourage them to graciously decline the invitation rather than ‘demand’ anything from you, or perhaps even suggest that the event take place at their home instead.

  13. Oh, and I have even painted a portrait for a Muslim friend, she was very happy with it and it hangs in a prime spot in their house. Please don’t make it look as if all Muslims are insane, deranged, basket cases.

  14. Aafke, I personally agree with you about alcohol in cooking, since it evaporates. But not everyone does. And some people just want to have ways of remembering God in all aspects of their life from how they wake up in the morning to how they go to bed at night. It probably often does have to do with control, but not always. I mean, otherwise why would you have Christian ladies voluntarily wearing hijab for no other reason than that they like it and view it as a fitting expression of their personal view on modesty, treating their body as a temple (i.e. ‘mobile worship space’)?

  15. After reading the comments, both pro and con, I think the easiest thing will be to take the “muslim” to a nice restaurant. I won’t mind sneaking in a bag of “dates” to break the fast; to fulfill the religious or cultural requirement.

    This way, one won’t have to worry about dogs, cats, animal hair, baby jesus, mother mary, et al. They can go either to their car (I have seen muslims sitting in the car praying) or they can go home and offer a delayed prayer.

    Problem solved :)-

  16. I think I would just not bother as it is just too much trouble with no pay off other than being the evil infidel.

    Caraboska:

    How familar are you will Christian theology and it’s cults?

  17. You know what? If you have Muslim friends they will be most like be nice reasonable, ”normal” people, not like Sami and Carabosca portray, and will not expect you to ”Islamically sanitize” your house or go overboard with food, otherwise they would be to deranged to be your friends to start with.

    And what’s wrong with communication? You can always just talk about food. And you may find out that your Muslim friends are not nearly as insane as Sami and Carabosca make out.

  18. Bigstick, I have been practicing Christianity by choice (not by upbringing) for over 30 years, and habitually read the New Testament in the original Greek. Still working on the Hebrew for the Old Testament :P Let’s say I have a pretty good idea what the Bible says and what the differences are between that and what various traditions say it teaches.

  19. I agree that Caraboska and Sami have taken a good will gesture to the extreme. If one invites a Muslim friend to an iftar and that Muslim accepts, that shows confidence and an open mind on the part of the Muslim. The Muslim is already aware that he or she is entering in to the home of one who does not practice Islam and will not hold that person accountable or expect the home to be “revamped” in any way.

    I’ve had so many iftars in my home and that is also with my cats in the home. My Saudi husband never objected or ever made a statement that they needed to be removed or hidden during iftars we hosted for others.

    I’ve also attended many an iftar in the home of a Muslim with family photos or different art work on the wall.

    Don’t let anyone put fear into you so that you would not reach out and have your friendship with a Muslim reach a new and beautiful level of friendship and understanding.

  20. I don’t think that Muslims are ‘demanding’ this of me. It’s purely voluntary. I view it as common courtesy, nothing more. If someone is going to be in my home, they should have the freedom to practice the principles of their religion. Maybe you will now think I am insane – be my guest :)

  21. Hello!

    I had the misfortune of being a born muslim for some 30 long years. When light finally dawned on me 5-years ago, it was as if a mega-lie had been lifted off my shoulders. I am so much at peace within myself and without that it is extremely hard to describe it; one has to actually experience it. Yes, islam is 100% ritualistic and controls your life 24/7, just like communism and nazism.

    This ramadan fasting bit is a case in point. It is deeply inculcated in the muslim dna that month long fasting brings a whole host of medical benefits and well-being to them. It is a myth and pure deception. Instead, the unscientific eating habits during ramadan are a health and economic curse for muslims, which is all too evident to the naked eye.

    Ramadan is claimed to be a major pious ritual of islam. Muslims practice month-long fasting, from sunrise to sunset.. The main purpose of fasting, claim muslims, is to practice economic belt-tightening, self-struggle, and self-purification — in order to be economical and also to starve oneself for realizing the painful condition of the hungry and starving people. Or to put it another way, fasting is for reducing economic expenditure or pressure, as well as practicing self-restraint by reducing indulgence in personal luxury, lusts, or comfort etc.

    But, in reality, muslims do the opposite!

    Muslims, fasting an entire month, practice a total orgy of eating and drinking and sugary delicacies, albeit during night instead of daytime. At iftar and sehri, a typical muslim may consume double the amount of most nourishing, delicious and luxurious food items compared to his normal eating habits. Monthly expenditures for a typical family duly doubles or triples as compared to monthly expenditures during rest of the year. That means, during ramadan, muslims are engaged in greater spending spree than any other months of the year. Instead of sacrificing self-comfort and self-interest and luxuries, muslims indulge in gorgeous month-long celebration of vigorous spending and eating orgies.

    Hmmmm. So whatever happened to practicing economic belt-tightening, self-struggle, and self-purification? Whatever happened to the idea of starving oneself for realizing the painful condition of the hungry and starving people? This fasting bit is pure hypocrisy and idiocy!

    I am guessing that the typical sample menu suggested by Carol is for a typical middle class saudi household. It is mouthwatering alright but it is extremely high in fats and sugars. I can imagine what the menu for royals may look like for sehri and iftar …. guess every day is ramadan for them in terms of royal feasts. No wonder they are all so fat, sickos, and get aged before their time. :)-

    Finally, here’s another eye-opener about the “holy” month of ramadan:

    In a recent survey by the Cairòs Institute of Social Sciences of the Arab World , it was found that during ramadan: Business Productivity drops by 78% (fewer work hours, absenteeism, sick leave, etc); Cholesterol & Diabetes cases go up by 28% (overeating, excessive sugar consumption, etc); Blood Crimes and Theft increase 1.5% and 3.5% respectively (abstinence from cigarette smoking/sheesha/hookas, etc).

  22. Caraboska:

    Great,

    I grew up as a Southern Baptist and in a household that also Catholics and went to a Christian University. I studied quite a bit of history and archeology.

    Have you ever asked yourself why a committee selected certain gospels and burned the rest? Have you ever asked yourself why Paul’s administrative letters to seven churches of the time where codified? Why one letter to one church was selected to use against women and codied. This was the letter to the Corinth church on women being silent and to cover there heads. This was sent to only one church and Corinth was known to be a large diverse population so there is a lot of speculation as to why this happen however one is because it was common that free women veil and slave women did not therefore it was put this way to ensure that women were treated respectfyully. I could go on and on here. How about the fact that almost all scholars deem 5 of the 12 letters to be forgeries.

    Of course few know about the apostle Junius (male) who had always been Junia (female) up until the 12 century when it was deem to be needed to changed as it hurt that all male club. There is so many lies and deception around theology it is hard to know where to start.

    Next indoctrination and lies of fear on a person’s soul has nothing to do with volunteering to wear any item. Then many christian women who are in this type of environment are forced by family and community to adhere to the oppression as well.

    :raspberry:

  23. I was kinda surprised (and chuckled) to see weird posts by cara and sami. Looked like their statements came right out of some wahabi textbook :)-

    We have had muslim friends, colleagues, neighbors over at our house for dinners/bbqs at 4th july, labor day, memorial day, etc. Never once did they ever complain about our dog/cat hair or question about gelatin/alcohol content in the desserts, or if meat was kosher, or about pictures or statutes/idols in our living/dining rooms.

    They even petted our cats and let the dogs onto their laps. About kosher meat, their take was that as long as you pronounce the name of god upon it, it becomes kosher. A few of the more enlightened ones even imbibed in wine or beer (they said social drinking is fine; drunkenness is not). None of the ladies wore a black robe or islamic scarf.

    I think inviting a muslim family over for iftar is an excellent idea. My wife and I plan to do it when ramadan comes around late next month.

    BTW, here is an interesting article by a has-been indian muslim which contrasts month of ramadan between saudi/arabs and non-arab muslims: http://islam-watch.org/authors/117-ghalib/766-ramadan-in-saudi-party-time-1.html

  24. X-Moozlum makes some interesting points. I’ve heard of Muslims gaining weight during Ramadan. I wonder if that happens to the poor and suffering when they break their fasts with at least two main dishes, plus a nice supply of dates and lentil soups, etc. Do Muslims look to invite the poor in the community to these iftars in order to share the bounty of God’s goodness?

  25. What is beautiful in Saudi Arabia (and elsewhere) is during Ramadan you’ll see large tents placed at many places beside or near a mosque. The poor can come to these tents each night during Ramadan and receive a full iftar as well as suhoor before the fast starts again.

    My husband’s family always took food each night to the poor not only during Ramadan, but most other nights as well.

  26. That’s good to know. Thanks!

  27. We ave hosted Iftar. I’m not Muslim and my husband is and our guests have been gracious, sane and we have all had a fabulous time breaking fast (theirs). We’ve had simple dinners. -vegetarian since I do not cook meat and I’ve offered them the prayer/music/sun room for their prayer and thy have never ever had any issue. Th room also holds parapharnelia from my religion and no one in these so many yrs has ever objcted

  28. each time I get here to read the comments there must be always 2 or 3 comments which talk pure-hating that makes me wonder what kind of thing they ever love/loved? I really petty them.
    also, good job Admin.

  29. @caraboska
    Well said. Thank you.

  30. @ Coolred38
    Shame on you, you could not find any other good word than “DARN”

  31. @Rahma
    You have misunderstood. It looks that you are born muslim only.
    You can pray where Idols are sitting,dogs are free to lick u. You go and enjoy, who is holding you.

  32. Yes you are right. It is restrictive and too much. I have already said so. Better stay home. Muslims can not bridge at the cost of their believes.

  33. @ Caraboska
    Do you know that Belief evaporates when you drink and eat untouchables.

  34. Sami, I am sure an argument could be made that eating of certain foods damages Islamic faith. The Christian faith teaches that it is not what comes into the body, but what comes out of the body that makes one unclean – for example, hateful or lustful thoughts, words or actions, telling lies, wanting what does not belong to us, etc.

  35. Caraboska:

    Re-read the bible again you missed alot also known as cherry picking. Ask yourself how many times in the bible doe God okay killing, slavery, rape, abuse, mutaliation?

  36. We’ve hosted dozens of Iftars for my husband’s friends (Saudi and non). I’d like to take this opportunity to officially inform the readers that this bit by carabosca:

    “The non-Muslim should take great care in finding out the rules, discuss all of these issues discreetly and well in advance with the intended guests to find out what their convictions are, so it is clear that all details have already been taken care of when the invitation is issued. You could couch it in terms of a question ‘Let’s say we were to attempt to make over my home so that it fits Islamic standards. What would you recommend?”

    is nothing but pure bollocks. Non-Muslims should do no such thing. Muslim guests do not expect anything of the sort from you, and you would indeed be seen as weird and/or rarin’ for conversion. You can of course go through the whole exercise carabosca prescribes but you should be aware that you are doing it for nothing but to indulge your own personal complexes.

  37. Here’s a real iftar guide for you:

    – No pork or alcohol to be on the safe side. Your guests will let you know if a glass is OK.

    – Some people eat only halal, some do not. You can ask if you wish. None of my guests ever asked if the meat was halal. My husband, FYI, eats only halal but when invited to people’s homes, never tells them about it – he just eats vegetarian things or makes a meal of side dishes only. It would not occur to him to dictate to hosts what to serve him.

  38. NN,

    An excellent comment as always! You are the voice of reason on this blog. Thank you!

    Rosemary

  39. NN, even my totally non-religious (indeed, in principle, anti-religious) parents would consider it a serious faux pas to serve guests anything that was contrary to their convictions. They have religiously observant people in their circle and it is a given that if they invite their friends over, the food will be acceptable. If they go out together to a restaurant, it’s a given that the place chosen will have food that meets their companions’ standards. It’s just common courtesy. What are you going to do with a strictly observant Muslim, when you know they will not touch anything that is not halal? Just not invite them over?

    In my case, it wasn’t necessary to ask what to do to preserve standards, because I already knew. But when something happened that jeopardized the halal status of my kitchen (someone taking care of my place while I was away spilled wine all over the place and then used my dish towels to sop up the mess), I made sure to ask whether it was problematic for my Muslim friend to enter such a room. Fortunately, it was not, since the place had been cleaned up. However, between that and the fact that it came out I use my kitchen sponge to wash all of the dishes including the cats’ bowls (and they eat non-halal meat), well, let’s say they stopped accepting invitations to eat at my place. And I respect that, even if I live differently myself.

  40. FIrst off It’s assumed that the muslims accepting the iftar invites are ok with non-muslims and know what they are getting into.
    Likewise there’s no need to go overboard andprep the house for muslims.. they really don’t care if you have pictures hanging in your wall . As long as you know to not make pork your main entree theya re perfectly fine. even if you do that the muslims i know are smart enough to ignore that and enjoy the rest.

    and this is not just modern ones. we hosted my step-MIL from saudi and she was quite a strict muslim and even she was not bothered by pictures onthe walls etc., she knew i cooked pure vegetarian and she was perfectly fine eating the food i made. she was perfectly fine with the baked goods my daughter made- very appreciative in fact and totally awed that a 16yr old could cook so well :-)

    of course there’s always exceptions but those exceptions won’t bother to accept the invite.

    we attended a wedding yesterday and there were a few muslims invited and no one had any issue with anything. there was champagne to toast the couple and they simply toasted themw ith water instead, food was not an issue they simply picked the beef or vegetarian option and we all had a fantastic time and wished the couple the very best…

    and sami – if you are so particular about pets and idols, enkoy iftar at your own home or maybe other muslims homes and be happy. Allt his says is how to host an iftar and atleast the muslims i know seem to be quite accomodative and not seem to have issues with pictures and such.. so do you never go out to eat ? or do you frequent restaurants with blank walls??? what BS.

  41. ‘Honest Abe,
    You are right , You can find many muslims who would love to drink and eat pig with you. All muslims are not the same. As all christians and jews are not the same. it does not mean that the muslim Laws are changed or the laws of Judaism are changed. The people have changed to enjoy and fear not of God.
    It is very interesting to note from yr comment, that pronounce the name of god and it becomes KOSHER. Do the Jews believe that? Tell the truth.

  42. Yes, Susanne430, Muslims do invite poor for IFTAR. If you do not know , find from learned.

  43. No problem if you know their requirements. You are Hindu and yr husband is muslim. He can not be a practicing muslim. however GOOD LUCK>

  44. My advice , don’t read.

  45. after reading nn and rada emails, i feel so much better. i am gonna invite my saudi friend and her family over to break their fasts at my home. i might even fast myself that day to see how it feels to go without food and drink all day. i just wanna make sure that i don’t serve pork or alcohol (i don’t drink anyway). thx nn and rada.

  46. @caraboska. With due respect, if I say sperm of man comes out of man and goes into the body of a woman. Who is clean and who is not? Please can you give a quotation from BIBLE for my knowledge. Thanks

  47. Hi NN, Why your husband eats only HALAL. He must have told you the reason. It looks that he is master of all trades.

  48. @Carabosca

    I don’t think the problem with your approach was in serving halal only – it was in your insistence that a home has to be completely Wahhabized (note I’m not saying Islamized) to be acceptable to your Muslim guests, all the way to forcing headcovering on non-Muslim ladies and that’s just bollocks.

    I also wonder how is it that your kitchen sponge routine and your cat’s diet habits became a subject of conversation. Please help me not to imagine your Muslim friends with a clipboard checking off the questions.

    “And do you use the same sponge to clean your dishes and your pet’s utensils? I see. Do you pets consume a halal-only diet? No? I see.” Grrr.

    @Sami

    I really don’t understand what you are asking me. What are you saying? Please put your question in plain English.

    @Louise

    Don’t listen to crazies. Make a normal meal without pork and booze elements. Don’t worry about traces of booze in cakes/cookies, although serving liquor-filled chocolate is probably not a good idea. If you suspect that your guests only eat halal but you don’t want to ask, just make fish. Win-win.

  49. Folks,

    This SAMI guy/gal or whatever his/her name is, is a Talabinized troll who surfs from forum to forum in his/her endeavor to make the whole world sharia-compliant (wahabized version). Such miniaturized talibans have evidently attended wahabi madrassas where the ONLY subjects taught are koran and hadith memorization.

    No science, no math skills, no geography/history (except golden age of islam), no independent thinking skills (except rote memorization). I am sure there is an advanced course in armed jihad offered also, where they are taught how to behead kafirs, spread fitna around the world, how to avoid any contact with kuffar since they are unclean (eat pork, drink alcohol) and the list goes on.

    And of course madrassas also teach them cyber skills: to do their part in the dawa efforts on different forums to spread their seventh century mentality of wahabi islam. Folks, SAMI and his/her ilk are still living in the caves of hira somewhere in the arabian peninsula :)-

  50. Sami, I do know the answer to your question, but I don’t view it as a fitting topic of conversation for this forum. I don’t normally talk about such things in mixed company :D

    NN, The Muslim in question is a friend who at the time was working as my housekeeper to make ends meet. That’s how the subject of the sponge came up. The wine, I knew she had unusually strict views on alcohol and that I’d better not let her in my kitchen before making sure she’d be OK with it. No, she isn’t Wahhabi, but still quite conservative. I wouldn’t have dared to invite her to eat without providing thoroughly halal conditions. She never had to ask, I just knew it was the right thing to do for her, so I did it – cheerfully, no less.

    About hijab: I wear it voluntarily all the time anyway – with both men and women, for reasons I normally keep to myself :)

  51. Carabosca, you are free to decorate your head in any way you wish, but it’s silly to claim that it’s required to receive Muslim guests in your home.

    I also have to wonder why a non-Muslim would refer to her headcovering as a hijab. Don’t you know any non-Arabic words to describe this?

  52. NN, ROTFL at ”wahhabized”!!!!!

    I’ve had a host of Muslim friends at a barbecue party, no pork, no problems, everybody enjoyed and at a lot. Sami the ultimate phobic salafi and Carabosca the oversensitively politically correct, are making a lot of nonsense out of nothing.

    NN, yes it’s called ”the veil” in English and according to the nasty misogynist Paul, every Christian woman who does not wear one should have her head shaved. Carabosca, you really should know that if you have read your bible.

    I am so glad I don’t fall for any of that superstitious magic stuff!

    I do wear a sun hat though if there is too much sun.
    Which happens to be the case right here right now.
    But it’s very pretty and makes me look even more beautiful.

  53. I agree with NN and Radha.

    I have hosted Muslims in my home before. Some want only halal-approved meats while others are fine as long as it’s not pork.

    If you’re not sure where to buy halal meats, you can ask them where they buy it from. I once had someone offer to buy the meat ahead of time so that way they’d know the meat was halal. I told a different Muslim friend on a separate occasion where I bought the meat from so they would know it was halal also. (And yes, some will ask before they touch it.)

    Also, be aware that some muslims won’t eat catfish because catfish are bottom-feeders.

  54. I refuse to buy halal meat because I am against halal slaughter. I only buy bio meat anyway. Never had a problem with Muslim friends eating my meat, or fish. Really most Muslims aren’t as neurotic as is made out here.

  55. Hello aafke-Art
    You said ” Muslim Friends eating MY MEAT” Muslims do not eat HUMAN MEAT.
    Sorry.

  56. I don’t see this being a good idea. Ramadan is a holy month were muslims should focus on their own iman/faith. It may not be the best time to be dining with non-muslims as straight after dinner is usually taraweh prayers and during the feast will be praying as well (awkward). Also during ramadan its recommended to break fast in group (muslims of course) for the blessings of that meal and so any other time of the year would be best to socialise with others rather then ramadan. I don’t think non-muslims understand that its unlike their holidays..this is an entire month of intense worship… to focus on their religion without distractions..to spend the with family/reading quran/studying islam/ time in mosque….so personally i wouldn’t recommend it personally.

  57. sami, i am sorry to say this but i must say this. you come across as a closed minded, narrow minded hypocrite and a bigot. calling rada husband a non-practicing muslim and taunting aafke is just one of many xamples of your behavior. you don’t even know them so how can you call them such names. you make us non-muslims feel like we are dirt and untouchables. is this what your religion teaches you.

    after reading your bigoted rants and comparing to my very positive interactions with saudi and other muslims here in maui, there is a difference of night and day between the hatred you spew and their common sense practices. sami, perhaps you don’t realize it but you are presenting a very extremist picture of your religion and bringing a bad name to your peaceful religion.

    blessings

  58. Bellavita, a lot of Muslims and mosques like to invite everybody in the neighborhood for Eid, or the ”sugar feast” as it is called here. They consider it a good opportunity to increase good relations.

  59. Several months ago, a muslim couple and their young children moved in to my neighbourhood. Their son and mine are in the same class at school. I approached the young woman and introduced myself to her and told her that i lived close by to her. I also noticed that she walked to school every day in all weather with her son and her toddler. I walk most days too, except if the weather is really bad. Being a mother of three children, I know how difficult it is at times to get them to school in the mornings ( regardless of our religious beliefs) children are children and we have to teach them the ways of God. It does not just happen. Anyway, we have become good friends, I take her son to school in the car on rainy days, she takes my son to school sometimes too. I am a Christian and she is a Muslim. We love God and are about His work. I respect her beliefs and respect her as a person and vice versa. I wish to support, encourage and honour her and her family during the month of fasting… RAMADAN by preparing halal food for her and her family. I am going to host IFTAR. I have no idols in my home. No statues. I do have photos, I do not see them as idols, but because my muslim friends do, I would gladly remove them from the room I would allocate for prayer. However , as my neighbours are so close in proximity, they may chose to pop back home and pray. I follow 2 commandments to the best of my ability and with the help and strength of the Holy Spirit… Love the Lord your God with all your heart ,all your mind and all your might… Love your neighbour as yourself. And in times when I fail to do so, I repent and by faith, accept the Grace of God and the payment for my sins by the crucifixion, death and ressurection of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have no agenda, I am not trying to convert anyone, just be a good friend and a good christian in response to what God has done for me through Christ Jesus. Love your fellow man. let God do the rest. God is Love

  60. @Sami, you don’t know how I pray! Why don’t you worry about your own self Mr-know-it-all? Sounds like you do everything right too so you must have s pot guaranteed in Janaa.

  61. I can assure everyone it is very common and not unusual for non-Muslims to host iftars for Muslim’s during Ramadan. When my husband and I were in the States he received so many invitations from non-Muslims for iftar. In addition to individuals, many organizations would host iftars for Muslims in their community. Yes; even some churches will host iftar for Muslims.

    All these folks recognize the spirit of Ramadan and want their Muslim friends/community to feel blessed.

  62. I have idols all over my house, I adore hindu statues, the ore idols the more amusing a religion I think. Haven’t had the need to carry out my Muslim friends, wrapped in wet towels, screaming and fainting….

  63. it seems like things are different in america but in australia its quite uncommon..(where I’m from anyway) for non-muslims to host muslims…usually mosques will hold open days where non-muslims can come at iftar time and share in the breaking of fast which i think is pretty cool…thats why i was personally reserved with the thought because i haven’t heard of it happening.

  64. Louise Enakai, on June 26, 2012 at 7:27 pm said: ” ….. and bringing a bad name to your peaceful religion”.

    Louise, you are a very nice and kind person by calling izlam a “peaceful religion”. Humbug :)-

    Take a look at “Izlam’s Latest Contributions to Peace” at an advocacy website:

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Then ponder and reflect on what Koran sez: “Mohammed is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another” 48:29

  65. @ BellVita ,June26
    I agree with you. But people don’t want to gain knowledge.

  66. @x-Moozlum on 27 june
    I must correct you that Mohammad (pbuh) is not APOSTLE but Messanger.
    Secondly Its wrong translation “Ruthless” But should be Hard. Please do not misguide .

  67. Sorry. I never tried to upset any one. Truth is truth. In last line you admitt that “my religion ” is peaceful ,i am ppeaceful too. You have called me names I am not upset at all. God bless you. But Think Think

  68. It will be a very good chance for you to tell your Muslim Friends about the definition of Holy Spirit. Millions do not know who is HOly Spirit?
    Please do it. Thanks

  69. sami, on June 27, 2012 at 8:00 pm said @x-Moozlum: “I must correct you that Mohammad (pbuh) is not APOSTLE but Messanger. Secondly Its wrong translation “Ruthless” But should be Hard. Please do not misguide”.

    Sami,

    I wasn’t trying to mislead at all! It’s just that you didn’t like Hilaly-Khan koran translation :)-

    The are one hundred and one english translations of “noble koran”. Each translation is different in terms of english usage of arabic meanings; each translator/interpreter assigns different meanings using the Lane’s lexicon book or whatever strikes their fancy.

    My favorite one is “Noble Koran” by Hilaly/Khan, and that’s the one I always use. I believe they are from Pakistan/Afghanistan/Iran area.

    This English translation is sponsored by the Saudi government and is provided free around the world in mosques/madrassas. It has been reported to be the most popular and the most widely disseminated koran in most islamic bookstores and wahabbi/sunni mosques throughout the English-speaking world. It comes with a seal of approval from both the University of Medina and the Saudi Dar al-Ifta.

    Sami, if you think what I posted is “misleading”, don’t accuse me of putting forth the “wrong translation”. Write and complain DIRECTLY to your fellow wahabbis Hilaly/Khan and/or University of Medina and Saudi Dar al-Ifta. Don’t shoot the messenger, please :)-

    Here are a few more classics from Hilaly-Khan …. do take notice of the power of parentheses:

    1:7: The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

    8.60: And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war (tanks, planes, missiles, artillery, etc.) to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy.

  70. @ X-Moozlum
    I am sorry if you are upset. I never meant. Actually APOSTLE means a person (disciple) chosen by Christ to preach his gosple.
    If Hilaly-Khan or Yousuf Ali has used the word Apostle For Muhammad(pbuh), is definitely wrong. Apostle is used in Christianity.
    Pick up any English Dictionary or Encyclpaedia. for knowledge.
    If Saudia doing something wrong it does not mean that we must repeat.
    If you give me yr E mail address I can say more about it,if you wish to.

  71. Ramadan is the month of Quran and not a month of socializing.

    Perrsonally, every sincere Muslim take this opportunity to seek the benefits of this special time and spend it by fasting sincerely for Allah swt, repenting, remberance, being grateful, praying and reading Quran (understanding and following it) with the intention of completting the Book. It is a time to make up for all the past sins and ponder on our future in relation to our faith.

    Muslims should not worry where to break their fast and what to eat. They must enjoy the blessings of Allah swt within the Muslim community and may invite non-muslims to this meal so that they have more understanding of the culture and understanding. Vice versa is not fitting the spirit of Ramadan. Naturally Muslims will not comment on pictures or idols or animals of halalness our of politeness. Sitting with non-muslims will take the time away from the spiritual aspects of this month and other requirements, namely reading the Quran.

    I would suggest non-muslims to allow Muslims enjoy this month by themselves or join them in their homes. If you do wish to socialize with them, please do so at other times. Thank you for your kind thoughts.

  72. Yes, another month to say we are muslims and you are the infidel now let us crack open the fairybook in order to further our us against them belief. The 3.0 version of the Abrahamic hate religion because God just can’t get it right. Just one of the many on-going failings of Allah/God.

  73. Ok, I give up. You maybe lucky and have some normal Muslim friends, or you can meet neurotic bigots like on this post. And the one on witchcraft!
    But still, people like Sami and Sarah would consider 5 years burning in hell not enough punishment for visiting and socializing with the filthy unbelievers, and of course they would never ever break bread with you.
    And never pollute their ”purity” by entering your house.
    Thank you Sarah for bringing me back to Earth after my flight in the realms of co-existence and mutual respect.
    Thanks for making me remember that I have no respect at all for immoral, deluded, stupid, wicked religious bigots.

  74. Sarah- it is not for you to judge or know how “every sincere Muslim” approaches Ramadan. Who are you to judge another’s sincerity? If you don’t want to spend time with non-Muslims then that is your personal decision. Please don’t speak for the faith or your co-religionists.

  75. Hello Sandy, nice to meet you again.

    I am not judging anyone – just saying – you know. Thats what sincere Muslims should concentrate on – not on how to break the fast or where to socialize. One must keep in mind why we fast and meraning of Ramadan. It is not party time.

    And Sandy, honey, Ramadan IS an islamic event and it is better to keep it within the community and make it purely Islamic and not bring other cultural aspects into it.

  76. Sarah you are 100% correct. Dont bother what others say. Let them say. Just listen them and enjoy over their fortune.

  77. Hello Sarah,
    You are not the arbiter of what “sincere Muslims” should be doing, however much you like to think you are the authority on that.

    Please elaborate on why we are fasting using the Quran to explain. I would be very interested to see where it speaks about many of the things you discuss. And I bet there are cultural aspects in how you spend your Ramadan Sarah. Probably far more cultural than the idea of sharing a meal with neighbors.

  78. @Sara

    “They must enjoy the blessings of Allah swt within the Muslim community and may invite non-muslims to this meal so that they have more understanding of the culture and understanding. Vice versa is not fitting the spirit of Ramadan. Naturally Muslims will not comment on pictures or idols or animals of halalness our of politeness. Sitting with non-muslims will take the time away from the spiritual aspects of this month and other requirements, namely reading the Quran.”

    If that’s how you feel, I’m very happy to not have you in my house, whether during Ramadan or any other month of the year. It’s a win-win.

    “One must keep in mind why we fast and meraning of Ramadan. It is not party time.”

    If you think Ramadan is not party time, you must not have observed many Muslims or many Muslim societies at close distance.

  79. When we lived in the Washington DC area my husband was the Director of Islamic Affairs at the Saudi embassy. We both hosted and attended iftars which were hosted by non-Muslims. Ramadan is an excellent opportunity and time to help bridge cultural and religious differences without compromising on the spirit of Ramadan.

    Many Muslims I know would read the Quran prior to iftar. They would have time to socialize and enjoy Ramadan between the end of iftar and before taraweel prayers.

    I think the bottom line though is that each and every Muslim is different in how they celebrate and follow Ramadan. In my experience in Saudi Arabia, Ramadan was/is a period of celebration. It was a time for family and friends to gather over iftar and give thanks for their blessings and reach out to the poor.

    The biggest sense of celebration that I experienced seemed to be suhoor (the last meal before the start of the next fast) but since most non-Muslims would not be up to a large hearty meal at 3 or 4 in the morning, it was always easier to share the Ramadan experience during iftar.

  80. FOR SAMI AT YOUR REQUEST ” TELL THE PEOPLE WHO THE HOLY SPIRIT IS”
    Genesis chapter 1 verse 1-3 In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was Light.
    Christians believe, that the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus is the Son of God. We believe that the Jewish law served the purpose to show that every person is a sinner and that we all fall short of the glory of God. The Jewish Law which started off as the 10 commandments given to Abraham were good, but as usual, man can take what is good and make it ugly. The laws that were added by the chief priests and saducees,were a terrible burden to the people. But Almighty God allowed it for a time.
    But in His mercy and great love for us, He took on flesh and became a man in the form of Jesus.He lived a sinless life and performed many signs and wonders to show that He has authority on earth over everything, including the demonic.(john 10: 37,38) He challenged the religious leaders in the ways they conducted themselves. Jesus came to abolish the law, God does not want our sacrifices, he wants a contrite heart. He wants a relationship with us and sin prevented this. Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.( Isaiah 53; 5.6) By His death and ressurection he is the saviour of the world. He is our substitute. He took our sins on His body and suffered our punishment AND separation from God in heaven. But the victory was in the Ressurection of Jesus. On the third day he rose again. He was seen by more than 500 people after His ressurection.
    There is evidence outside the New testament to support the ressurection this includes – TACITUS & SUETONIS, ROMAN HISTORIANS. JOSEPHUS, JEWISH HISTORIAN. The SCIENCE OF TEXTURAL CRITICISM- scriptures have been proven to be passed down with very little change.
    When a person becomes a Christian and is baptised with water, we believe that the Holy Spirit of God comes to dwell in our ‘heart’. (Romans 8:9).
    (John 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son so that whoever believes in Him and is baptised will be saved.
    By the grace of God and the Blood of Jesus our sins are forgiven. We cannot EARN GOD’s FORGIVENESS, but we have to accept this payment by believing that Jesus is the Son of God and the atonement for our sin ( Isaiah 53: 5,6).

    Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian.

    When someone becomes a Christian, God’s Holy Spirit comes to live inside them and transforms us from within (Galatians 5:22) they shall be known by their fruit and the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE,JOY, PEACE, LONGSUFFERING,GENTLENESS, GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, KINDNESS and SELF CONTROL..This transformation is not immediate, it takes time and a process of spiritual maturation. But our salvation is immediate because of what Jesus did for us on the cross.

    Changes we start to experience are…

    A NEW LOVE FOR GOD
    A DESIRE TO READ THE BIBLE
    A SENSE OF FORGIVENESS
    A NEW CONCERN FOR OTHERS
    ENJOYMENT OF WORSHIPPING GOD
    A DESIRE TO MEET WITH OTHER CHRISTIANS

    I invite people of all faith backgrounds to study the bible. Make your own mind up, because… A man convinced against His will is of the same opinion still.
    God Bles all who read this

  81. 1- there are multiple creation stories in the bible which do not correspond
    2- The letter of Paul are letters by Paul. Paul was obsessed with controlling people and he was woman hater. His letter are written by a rather nasty man and not by some invisible magical sky daddy, moreover, 5 of those letters are forgeries.
    3- And, for example, the original letter to the Galatians does not exist, the nearest copy is 150 years later, and is full of mistakes and changes from the many copyists.
    4- Its quite interesting, changes in the bible, such as the later added resurrection of Jesus can be traced to their point of origin. This stuff was made up by people, not supernatural beings, if they existed, they wouldn’t have made such badly bodged jobs over them.

    The magic books are written, edited, changed, adapted, added too, and badly translated by MEN. Not by invisible magical beings.
    There may be invisible sky daddies, but the books offer only proof of men making them up.

  82. Sandy, in response to your question on why we are fasting, it is a question asked many times and I am sure that you are aware of the answer.

    Without going into much details …

    First of all we fast in obedience to Allah swt alone.”O you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you…”(2:183) and “…whoever witnesses the month of Ramadan should fast through it…” (2:185)

    Secondly to make us aware of those who are in need. It is a month of refreshing ourselves.

    Thirdly to gain piety. By remembering what we are blessed with, constant dhikr(remeberance), prayers, recitation, it brings us closer to our creator and get to understand the purpose of us being here. “O you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you…so that you will attain piety” (2:183)

    Fourthly, it disciplines us for good behavior by curbing backbiting, gossipping, cursing, lying, cheating, bickering and holding grudges, wasting time and other vices. A good time also for those trying to stop smoking or other addictions.

    Five, it teaches us patience.

    Six, one of the ideas behind Ramadan is to keep the tradition. Fasting was prescribed to all people from the time of Adam (as). “O you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for people before you …”(2:183). This is something that is passed down from the tradition of Allah swt and you will not find changes in His Ways.

    These are only some of the reasons.

    Considering the above mentioned purposes of fasting, how can one think of socializing? sitting with a group of people who are not fasting, who will have alcohol and idols, pictures, dogs …etc and will most probably sit in mixed gathering …? How will it achieve piety, God-consciousness, how will it not lead to whiling away precious time of this holy month gossiping, talking pointless subjects …etc. How does this make it holy? How is the pure tradition of this month upheld? Mixing the culture is dangerous in this way, because it is very easy for non islamic aspects to creep into the Islamic traditions as has happened in some cases. If it is not checked, most probably down the road we will see mistle toes on top of iftar table and decorated palm tree in the corner! (na’azubillah).

    This is why, keeping it within the Muslim community, it is much safer to be more taditional-like.

    And yes Sandy, to a certain extent we can judge, we can be artibers because we have a set of guidelines according to how we can judge. Just as judges will judge a talent contest according to certain rules, we can judge according to our rules and our rules are outlined in Quran and Sunnah. The Ultimate Judge is Allah swt certainly.

    Having said that I am all for non-muslims inviting muslims for iftar for pure intention of learning more of the culture and respect the traditions (just as Carabosca mentioned) of Muslims and do no more than eat and leave aqllowing the Muslim continue in his/her routine of worship. And not make it party theme with music and those kind of things. Muslims can also invite non-muslims with good intention of getting to know one and another learn more of the valus of Islam.

    American Bedu,
    “Many Muslims I know would read the Quran prior to iftar.”
    Did you also used to do that?

    Suhoor is even not any kind of celebration. It is a simple meal. Muslims these days tend to make it look like a celebration of sorts, sadly.

    NN,
    I would most probably not accept an iftar invite from non-muslims – due to my own past experience. But I would gladly accept on any other non-religious occasions. I would love to have your company at my house for iftar – and give you taste true traditinal Ramadan experience – if you don’t mind sitting on the floor, that is.

  83. @Sarah
    Yiur response to Sandy is appreciated. But these people know every thing but they waste time for nothing.
    If they are so much interested why dont they accept Islam.

  84. There are a myriad of muslim websites dedicated to proving that there are miracles forecasted in the koran.
    This goes back to “inferiority complex” amongst many muslims since they haven’t contributed much to human civilization the last 14-centuries (two nobel prizes; even claims of the so-called islamic golden age have been found to be bogus).

    Strangely there is no mention of pyramids anywhere the koran (or for that matter in the bible or torah), though pharaohs are mentioned many times for their arrogance and pride. The one verse muslims love to quote over and over and over again to show the koranic miracle is 28.38:

    Pharoah said “O Chiefs! I know no God for you other than me. So kindle for me (a fire) O Haman, to bake (bricks) clay, and set up for me a lofty tower in order that I may look at the God of Moses” .

    Muslims zero in on couple of words “bake” and “clay” and proudly proclaim: How could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have known that those high blocks were made from baked clay then cast like modern cement? See the miracle here”.

    Of course, to bring FAKE independent credibility to their claim, they pay off couple of useful idiots, like karen armstrong, maurice bucalle et al, to say that koran is indeed a miracle. All the so-called “miracles of koran” from arithmetics to astrophysics have been debunked by bonafide scientists as “junk science”. Then they use these miracles as scientific proof of islam’s superiority and to convert the heathens :)-

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Miracles

  85. You really elaborated. The Quran is enough thank you. Basically we fast because of tradition, for piety and because we were told to- obedience. None of these things are threatened for me by socializing with friends and neighbors and sharing a meal. No where does the Quran suggest that we isolate ourselves. But enjoy your xenophobic Ramadan.

    And no, you are not qualified to judge- not even to a “certain extent” in my opinion. You have such a biased interpretation of the faith- you have sculpted it into something quite narrow- that follows patriarchal cultural traditions. And actually I have no problem with that at all. Except when you judge others for not accepting your interpretations and understandings of things. We are under no obligation to do so.

  86. Sapphire:

    Please read this on Chrisitian theology and it addresses your statements on other texts that mentions Jesus. One wonders when the text of Abrahamic religion final is put to rest as nothing more than a “Harry Potter” is it possible to achieve something that has higher meaning than following a book of absurities.

    http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

  87. Thanks Sandy, I appreciate your views. I do not consider my views as patriachal – are you judging now? We it does not fit your thinking, it does not make it narrow or patriachal. It is just traditional.

    ” No where does the Quran suggest that we isolate ourselves” – Nowhere does it say to socialize with non-islamic aspects.

    Anyway Sandy, you can do fasting as you see right and I will do with my views. Fair enough? I have not forced it on you.

  88. And of – we are all qualified to judge whatever the subject is. Who says we are not. Why do we have judges then? We judge all the time. Thanks anyway.

  89. Sarah:

    Traditional is Patriachal.

  90. Sarah- you are the ones that accused people who share an iftar with non-Muslims as being “traditional” rather than “Islamic”. Probably “tribal” would be a better description than “patriarchal” in this case. And it isn’t a judgement. It is a description of keeping to your own kind.

    What makes your views narrow is that you judge others for not having them. I don’t care how you interpret Islam until you start judging everyone elses Islam.

    We are not all qualified to be judges of who is a “sincere Muslim” or not. That is strictly Allah’s domain. And we are certainly not all qualified to pass judgment on every issue.

  91. Sarah,

    Please can you enlighten us why the prophet Mohammed accepted the invitation from a Jewish man to the barley bread? The Jewish man was not a Muslim and the prophet accepted his invitation.

    Also the prophet accepted invitation from a Jewish woman to a poison lamb and he ate the meat. How can we reconcile this with your opinion in this issue? Thank you very much in advance.

  92. @Sarah,

    You are entitled to your opinion and views as is everyone here. I do chose to disagree with your perspective. I feel that your perspective is insular and shuts out wonderful opportunities of sharing and understanding.

    Yes; prior to iftar my late husband and I would read the Quran together…or much of the time, he would be reading aloud to me as I was preparing the iftar meal. It was a special time of closeness and we always broke the fast while sitting on the floor. That did not change even when non-Muslims were present as guests during iftar.

    I’ve lived in multiple Muslim majority states and actually Saudi Arabia has been the one place which seemed to have the biggest “party atmosphere” during Ramadan, whether it was at iftar or particularly at suhoor. Until the taraweel prayers became lengthier, the time between final prayer and taraweel prayer was spent socializing with family and friends in the spirit of Ramadan. Usually the women would visit while the men went out to give food to the poor.

    I believe you do not wish to paint a picture of intolerance yet that is how I perceive some of what you have written. You have, in my estimation, grossly over-exaggerated what a Muslim could expect at a non-Muslims home during iftar. I think it is highly unlikely that any non-Muslim who would wish to host an iftar would be so insensitive or stupid to think of having or offering alcohol. If a non-Muslim wants to hold an iftar it’s because they probably have a relationship with a Muslim family and are not going to extend such an invitation without knowing basic do’s and don’ts (alcohol, pork products as examples).

  93. Sandy, first of all I did not accuse anyone, I did not point at any single person. I made general statment (mostly based on my own experience). Okay? So how can you say I accused people? Are you not judging me here?

    No not tribal, I mean traditional, sunnah way. It is recommended to break the fast as soon as possible. One shld recite Quran and make dhikr with kush’oo. The atmoshpere of fast breaking is very spiriutal – is something that I cannot describe. One does not feel all that in another environment of another culture who may not understand it.

    By sincere believers, I mean those who stick to Quran and Sunnah. By those guidelines we can judge the people but as I said Allah swt is the Ultimate Judge. People judge others all the time – you are judging me too.

    We do not have to agree on our views, my dear. Different people, differet views, thoughts …etc. You are free to think as you like just as I am free to do the same. But thanks for sharing your perspectives.

    Snowman,
    I am aware of the invitations that the Prophet (saas) accepted but bear in mind that those were not iftars. And even if they were – so what? Those people of that time were nowhere in the arena of where we are with regards to morality.I do not think that he would have given the honor of his noble presence if there were forbidden things in their homes. I DID mention in my comment that other than religious events, such invitations are okay for socializing and getting to know one another. Plus, I find nothing wrong to invite non muslims for the meal of breaking the fast. Please note that it IS permissible to accept invitations from non-muslims but it is ust my view that some of the traditional aspects of IFTAR would be diminished in this case. Any ivitation from non-muslims (iftar or otherwise) becomes forbidden if non-islmaic things are available such as alcohol, pork, mixed sittings, vain, idle talk, music, dancing, semi-nude dressing … etc. Also it is recommened not to make it a habit of attending such invitations.

    Thanks for your question. I appreciate it.

    American Bedu,
    I respect your views. Iftar is not the only time that one can call on Muslims. For all those wonderful opportunites of bonding and building relationships, you have the rest of the year.

    I had a warm feeling to read about the moments your husband (Allah yerhamu) would read the Quran before iftar or you would read together. That is just so beautiful and sweeeet! Insha’allah you will be able to continue to do so even when he is not around. May Allah swt give good health to make it happen. Ameen. I am glad that you had nice iftar gathering – in the SPIRIT of Ramadan. That is what i am talking about.

    I am merely stating my opinion just as you and others are doing. There is no right or wrong views. These are just our ways at looking that things. If people prefer to accept such invitations then it is their choice.

    Bedu, there is a limit to tolerance. One cannot immerse oneself in an environment which can harm oneself (leave alone religious beliefs). Yes maybe to you I have “grossly over-exaggerated” but as I said, I was speaking from experience. There is always a danger of that happening – yes there is. Anything that leads to sinful ways, should be avoided from the root. Maybe your experiece have been different which makes you form your views. And yes there are people stupid enough to dance at iftar and delay the prayers, who give vain talks, play music etc. We cannot be too naive to think that everyone’s intentions are pure as yours.

    To you yours and to me mine :)

  94. There certainly is a limit to tolerance and you manage to cross it nearly every time.
    By your comments one can only judge you as close minded, intolerant, and bigoted. If that is incorrect you might want to rethink your comments.

  95. Sarah,
    You’re general statement describing behaviiors of what “sincere Muslims” do- in terms of practicing the fast at Ramadan- and the contrast you set up- was certainly a judgement on all Muslims who chose differently. Say what you like now- it’s right there in black and white. Just because it was a general statement against EVERYONE who dissagrees with you does not make it a non judgement. And me calling you on your intolerance and judging of your co-religionists does not equate with your actually doing that.

    Again you go on about the corrupting influence of others on your fast and how you should stay with Muslims. That’s fine for you. But that doesn’t make you more sincere. Or even a more accurate follower of Sunnah- so perhaps you should stop elevating yourself so much. Just because one follows your version of what is more pious doens’t make them more sincere- if they are full of pride and judgement of others.

    I am perfectly content with you your way, and to me mine. But I don’t need to tell you how people who do it my way are more sincere and following Sunnah better and how by doing it your way you are corrupting the experience. You’re the one that came on here and did that.

  96. Sandy, my dear Sandy, if you think that I am passing judgement on people who think like you do, then so be it. Sheesh, touchy aren’t we? But Sandy, while you are so against judging others, why are you juding me? Conflict here, eh?

    I do sincerely beleive that mixing of cultures is dangerous and risky. Why take the risk? I agree with you that it does not make me more sincere. So who is the accurate follower of Sunnah, Sandy?

    “Just because one follows your version of what is more pious doens’t make them more sincere”. So you do see it as more pious – lol.

    Yes you don’t need to tell me that – as I am the one who said that already. Why bring it up then? Just to have the last word?

    Sandy, why argue? If you want to attend iftar with non muslims which is halally organised, go for it but as your sister I would not advise you to attend one that is not halal. However if you choose not to care, then its on you.

    I, for one, prefer to break my fast at home and that is what is comfortable for me.

    Thanks for the interesting interaction.

  97. Your own words speak for themselves. You are fantastic at back-pedaling when called out on you judgmental-ness. Denial is never attractive. And YES I am absolutely touchy when Muslims go around reeking of intolerance and judgement towards others (including fellow Muslims) who don’t do exactly what they think is best.

    Why do I argue? So your judgmental, intolerant version of Islam isn’t the only one on public display.

    Oh- and all your “honey” and “my dear” comments sound as insincere as they are.

    “I am not judging anyone – just saying – you know. Thats what sincere Muslims should concentrate on – not on how to break the fast or where to socialize. One must keep in mind why we fast and meraning of Ramadan. It is not p”arty time.
    And Sandy, honey, Ramadan IS an islamic event and it is better to keep it within the community and make it purely Islamic and not bring other cultural aspects into it.”

  98. I don’t undertand what you are trying to say here. I still stand on what I believe. I don’t think I am judgeing anyone – only expressing my views. But if you think I am being judgemental – that is your thinking, I cannot stop that, can I? I still say that sincere Muslims must not think to mix cultures to avoid the risks and we must concentrate on the meaning of Ramadan and not partying. I still stand by it.

    You still have not answered why you are judging me, though? Or is that touchy topic too?

  99. Listen, Sandy, why do you want to argue? We hold different views. There is no right or wrong in holding a view – in the end it is an opinion. In my initial comment, I wrote about my views. You took as passing judgement and accusing a group of people.

    I did not want to argue with you but went on and on trying to get the last word and trying to “win” (there is no winner or loser in discussing views).

    I do feel that Ramadan shld be within the community. To foster good relationship with others, one can do it any other time or the Muslims can invite non Muslims to their homes for iftar. No where have I said that it is wrong to go to a non-Muslim home for iftar.

    I say again:
    Ramadan is the month of Quran and not a month of socializing.

    Perrsonally, every sincere Muslim take this opportunity to seek the benefits of this special time and spend it by fasting sincerely for Allah swt, repenting, remberance, being grateful, praying and reading Quran (understanding and following it) with the intention of completting the Book. It is a time to make up for all the past sins and ponder on our future in relation to our faith

    Thanks for your opinions and views. I appreciate them.

  100. I am calling you out on your intolerance and judgement of others. I for one am not detailing the “correct” behavior sincere Muslims must adhere to during Ramadan. I imagine it isn’t the same for everyone- and that sincere Muslims will likely manage that for themselves and don’t need me telling them what is or is not the correct approach. YOU are the one stating what the correct approach should be for those who are sincere.

    As I said before I am “arguing” with you so that others can see that your intolerant presentation of Islam is not shared by all Muslims. I don’t really expect you to be convinced of anything because you are not open to others doing things differently- except to accept they might do the wrong thing.

  101. Sarah, if you are not aware, it’s been traditional for most US President’s in office to host an iftar. I’m curious as to your perspective of this tradition.

    What I wish to reinforce is that in all of my experiences of a non-Muslim hosting an iftar it has been a positive and beautiful experience of sharing, tolerance and understanding. The average individual is not going to host an iftar going in blindly. It is also a nice reprieve for those who have been fasting all day to not have to prepare an iftar meal while still fasting.

    I realize we are going to agree to disagree on the issue. However, in my view, I think it is an honorable and beautiful gesture for a non-Muslim to host an iftar and the Muslim family accepts. This is not compromising on their religion or beliefs.

  102. Sandy, you are constantly saying I am being judgemental but you do not see that you are also judging me, but you refuse to address this. You have said I “accused” others, that I am insincere, that I am intolerant and even on my usage of terms of endearment as being insincere. How can you call out on me when you are guilty of the very things you are accusing me of? Yet you avoid this.

    You have not answered any things I asked of you. I am not looking for your answers. You said that you are arguing so that others can see my intolerant presentation. You do not have to make others see that. Others can form their own opinions on my views. It is not your job to make others see that. It is not for you to show others that this is what she thinks and that it is wrong! How can you judge that my views are wrong or intolerant?

    It is surprising to me that you are so intolerant of my views. Makes me wonder why? If I beleive in something, who are you to object. I have not imposed others or forced others to act on my beliefs. I have just said what I think and what it should be like to be more traditional-like and even advised. Deen is nasiha. Who are you to force others to think as you think or accept your views. Are you the know all? One should only look towards the guidleines given to us as Muslims.

    So quit arguing and be more tolerant on others perspectives.

    American Bedu,
    Yes I do know that White House hosts iftar parties. If you have read my previous comments, I said that if going to these iftars providing that everything is halal and within the guidleines it is good and beneficial even. Howvever if there is mixing of culture such as alcohol, pork, mixed sittings, vain, idle talk, music, dancing, semi-nude dressing … etc, it is not advisable for Muslims to attend these kind of gatherings. I do not know what of things are there at the White House so I cannot say how these iftars are conducted.

    Bedu, I glad that such gatherings have been wonderful experiences for you and this is what makes you form the views that you hold. I agree that it “is an honorable and beautiful gesture for a non-Muslim to host an iftar” and all this depends on the intention.

    I prefer not to mix the cultures and keep it more traditional. You may thing otherwise. So we agree to disagree. :)

  103. Sarah,
    What position have I taken except don’t judge others- and it is each person’s own decision how to do their iftar’s? If you disagree with that, that is fine.

    I have nothing wrong with your preference for keeping Iftar “traditional” as you see it.

    I only object to your judging others. Refusing to accept intolerance is not the same thing as being judgemental. If you are being intolerant- I am not judgemental for pointing it out.

    And it absolutely is my place to oppose Muslims acting intolerantly. I have an obligation even, to show that not all Muslims practice an intolerant Islam.

  104. Sarah,

    I can address your curiosity about White House iftaars. There is no pork or alcohol; the sitting is mixed. There is subdued music, no dancing. I will not venture a guess whether you will consider their talk idle, and just how idle. I will also add that the State Department hosts their own iftars. Invitations to both are highly covetable so I assure you they will not lose sleep over who declines these invitations for reasons of religious purity since basically no one does.

  105. Sandy,
    “What position have I taken except don’t judge others”

    and yet you judge me and my views.

    “and it is each person’s own decision how to do their iftar’s”

    my views are same.

    “I have nothing wrong with your preference for keeping Iftar

    “traditional” as you see it”

    So why all the hue and cry?

    “I only object to your judging others”

    and yet you judge me and my views.

    “Refusing to accept intolerance is not the same thing as being

    judgemental”

    Oh really? So refusing to accept tolerance IS being judgemental

    according to your or whose philosophy – or just because you say/feel

    so? Ridiculous.Where are the guidelines for this theory of yours.

    “If you are being intolerant- I am not judgemental for pointing it

    out.”

    By the same philosophy, if you are being tolerant – I am not

    judgemental for pointing it out.

    “And it absolutely is my place to oppose Muslims acting

    intolerantly.”
    Based on what? If so why is it not my place to oppose otherwise?

    Where is the logic in your “logic” – my dearest?

    “I have an obligation even, to show that not all Muslims practice an

    intolerant Islam”
    But you don’t have any obligation to follow the rules of guidleines

    given to you as a Muslim. You want to spend time to sit there and

    show others how to be tolerant according to your OWN guidelines.

    Sweeeeet.

    As I said deen is nasiha and I acted upon that advise given by our

    Prophet saas.

    Thanks all the same. Have a nice day.

    NN,
    I really appreciate your explanation on the White House iftars.
    No pork and alcohol – fine
    Mixed sitting – not fine
    Music – not fine (mixing of cultures)
    No dancing – fine
    Semi-nude dressing – not mentioned by you but somehow I feel that is also there so not fine (mixing of cultures)
    idle talk – definately as I am sure no one is talking about the virtues of fasting or how to become better as a person and help humanity and bring out plans to feed the poor of the world …etc.

    So the judge in this blog can decide if that kind of gathering is acceptable or not. From what I understood from American Bedu that it is done in Islamic ways but from your explanation it does not seem to be like that. I rest my case.

    Ramadan is the month of Quran and deep reflection of our lives in this earth and to better our selves. It is not a political agenda, it is not a casual party, it is not a time to catch up with one another.

  106. Sarah,
    Who says I don’t follow Islamic guidelines? Where did I excuse myself from those? You make fantastic claims.

    And yes, you are correct. You are not being judgemental if you call me out for being tolerant. Go ahead I don’t mind a bit.

  107. From your comment I can clearly see that you have no justification to what I have said. Now your aim was to let others see not others will see!

    I don’t know you to say if you follow islamic guidleines or not but I can say that when you introduce new concepts into Islamc rules (in the name of being tolerant), when one removes the hijab, when one opposes what is set out for them, when one makes haram halal and vice versa, one can safely say that one is not strictly following the guidelines.

    Please do not waste your time by arguing about nothing. Spend time by beneficial knowledge.

  108. Sarah, Sandy cherry picks the nice parts out if Islam, you cherry pick the nasty bits. That makes Sandy a nice person, and it makes you a …….

    Religion is very personal, that’s why there are so many different explanations of the same religion. It doesn’t have to do with religion, but the mind and personality of each individual. There has actually been a study which shows that people think of God and what God (pick deity of your choice) would want to do is exactely the same spot in your brain where you make your personal decisions.

    So I am not judging you to be a not a very nice human being; you are telling us so, in ever comment you make. And I have heard you, and I agree.

  109. Sarah, you would be greatly benefited as a human being by following Sandy’s example, search for the nice stuff in Islam, and discard the nasty stuff, maybe then you could grow and improve.

  110. Can someone please clarify if it is a sin for a muslim to enter a house that has photos or paintings of people or animals on the walls? Im quite curious about this as Ive had lots of muslims in my home and they have never objected to my pictures and I didn’t know it was a problem. I understand that some muslims believe they cannot have pictures/photos displayed in their own home as it stops angels visiting (or something like that). But why would it matter if there are pictures in a place that a muslim was just visiting? Do muslims expect angels to follow them? If there is such a thing as angels, I really don’t want them in my house anyway.

    I don’t really understand how a muslim can avoid being in a building with pictures/photos on the walls, how about doctors surgeries, offices, shops, workplaces, museums, etc that have pictures on the walls, do muslims have to avoid these places? I guess art galleries must be out of bounds, how sad. Or does this rule only apply during Iftaar?

  111. @sarah – you say to avoid mixing of cultures in a lot of places, i think you mean ‘mixing of religions’ — that clears up a lot of thngs you say..
    e.g ..Music – not fine (mixing of cultures), semi nude dressing …etc.,

    every culture enjpys music one way or another, every culture has some dressing that is diff to another. have you been to a saudi wedding – womens section… trust me there is PLENTY on display … haute couture doesn’t cover much :-)

    Mixing of cultures is actually a good thing , maybe you don’t want to mix with other religions in ramadan since you prefer to be with fellow folks, — that is fine. your choice.

    from My point of view. faith is withing me, no one saying anything can separate me from my internal faith. so i don’t see the harm in socializing.. as for idle talk !!!! in almost all the iftars i have attended in saudi adn elsewhere there was very little talk on poverty or helping humanity.. actually none…maybe i just associate with superficial muslims… who knows :-) the religious seriousness was there but cetainly no helping humanity and anyway to help humanity every culture needs to be considered right? we are all humans

  112. Sarah,
    I don’t folllow YOUR guidelines. That’s not the same thing as not following ISLAMIC guidelines.

    Aafki- I don’t cherry pick! But there are foundational believes through with everything has to be looked at.

  113. Radha,
    “mixing of cultures” – well to a certain extent, yes, I mean religion. I used the word “culture” because I do not believe that the West have any real state religion. But they are big on things like Thanksgiving, xmas, father’s day, mother’s day, valentine …etc. I don’t have problem with that because these are from their culture. What I am against is mixing the two and it is very easy for one to slide into the other.

    Maybe music is enjoyable but it is not encouraged in my faith and to play in at a gathering such is iftar is an insult to a Muslim. So when music is played then it gradually becomes a part of such gatherings and then it is an accepted thing. You see what I mean?

    Semi-nude mixed gathering is also prohibited. If Saudi women do it does not mean it becomes right. And if the gathering is females only, it is different matter.

    You are right mixing of cultures is good in certan areas – its like sharing of knowledge as in art, medicine, architecture …etc but when it comes to faiths, it is not a good thing.

    Radha, Ramadan is a holy month, its very spiritual, month of Quram, asking for mercy, forgivness, feeding the poor, reflecting on life, being generous …etc. Fasters should concentrate on these aspects. Most people reduce Ramadan to a time of socializing, and playing music at iftar is really an insult to Muslims and to this special month itself. So try to understand how heavy this month is and how important it is. Do not trivialize it.

    Thanks for your input.

  114. Sandy, I agree to disagree. You have failed in your agrument and refused to justify yourself and in the end all you can say is you have some guidelines. I would be interested to know what guidelines are those? I don’t expect an answer but its worth to ask.

  115. I am not going to argue every conceivable point of Islamic guidelines. YOU brought up guidelines, not me. I just don’t consider you the authority of Islamic guidelines, that’s all.

    I have not failed in my argument- which is merely that you are not the determiner and arbiter of correct Islamic behavior. I am not trying to convince you to share iftars with anyone. If you feel it threatens your correct practice of Islam to do so- then don’t. I have no argument except it is not for you to judge other Muslims in terms of sincerity or the following of guidelines, if they practice differently- and that to pass so much judgement is intolerant. Not sure what is soooo hard for you to see about that.

  116. @sarah – my intention was never to trivialize the month of ramadhan, my husband fasts and hence i”m very much aware of what fasting entails.

    Infact i would say the fasting that goes on in our place is more in line with the teachings of islam than what i have noticed in many places. My husband eats a regular breakfast and breaks fast with a normal dinner. no large stuffing occurs and no loud partying all night long and sleeping all day long .since we have to go to work the next day.

    to each his own, if you wnt to break fast at home then you should. i am hosting a couple of iftar’s at my place as i usually do usually on sat and the friends i invite so far havn’t refused .
    this ramadan will be no different. i accomodate that in respect of my husbands beliefs and my way of showing him my love. although he doesn’t expect anythinig special for that month, i do try and get up and sit with him when he breakfasts before daylight and keep his chores to a min during the day.

    i see hosting iftar as extending a hand of friendship just like so many many friends have invited us to their home for thanksgiving nad christmas . after all inthe end we have to learn to live in harmony if not for us atleast for our children.

  117. Ok if you dont want to layout your guidleines, that is fine. You had asked me intitially at the start of this debate and I did reply to you respectfully and sincerely.

    If you don’t consider me authority, thats fine too, because I don’t think of myself that way too and neither do I think you are any kind of authority.

    However you did fail because you were not able to reply to any of my points and cleverly avoided them or ignored them. This is your failure.

    “you are not the determiner and arbiter of correct Islamic behavior”

    lol, never said I was. I merely advised.And by the way, we have Quran and Sunnah as our guidelines if you didn’t know and by that we can determine, if you didn’t know.

    “I am not trying to convince you to share iftars with anyone.”

    There is not need to convince me of anything. I would invite whom I please of any faiths and I would also respectfully invite you.

    “I have no argument except it is not for you to judge other Muslims in terms of sincerity or the following of guidelines, if they practice differently”

    There is no different Islam and guidlines. There is only one Islam. Interpretation maybe different.

    “Not sure what is soooo hard for you to see about that”

    What is hard is that you are doing the same thing what you are accusing me of and yet you fail to explain yourself. All those things I mention early today, you totally ignored. That is hard for me to understand why you did that. It is hard for me why you say you have some guidelines and fail to say what they are.

    Peace.

  118. Sarah,
    YOU suggested I chose not to follow Islamic guidelines, because I disagree with YOU.
    I merely am saying disagreeing with YOUR interpretation of things does not mean I am not following Islamic guidelines.
    That is the only point I am making about guidlines. You are trying to divert it into something else- a discussion on the correctness of my guidelines. I have no desire to elaborate on the specifics of how I understand Islam. It has no relevance to this discussion. Your opinion about how I understand things means nothing to me- and it is something I would discuss with people who might contribute to my understanding. I don’t have time for “idle talk” with intolerant people.

    And no. Say it as much as you like- I did not do the same thing that you did. I don’t judge what you do- only your intolerance for others views.

  119. Fine, Sandy, have it your way. And thanks for the interaction.

  120. Radha – To each his own.

  121. @Snowman
    That is the problem that you do not try to understand the why he (Prophet) accepted the invitation. It was not for IFTAR.
    Secondly he (Prophet) accepted the invitation of a Jew Woman bacause Allah (swt) wanted the prophet to experience personally how a muslim can trust a non- believer, so he had it.

  122. Its better shut up. No need to argue if you dont want to learn
    Sorry.

  123. Sandy, who cares if you dont agree.

  124. Radha JI, I would advise you to approach Pope who has pursuaded King Abdullah to organize Interfaith Dialogue.

  125. Sami-
    I know YOU don’t care. But this is a blog where Carol invites us to share our opinions.
    And so I do.

  126. Sami,
    Interfaith dialog is actually something that has existed before King Abdullah decided to do it too. And while I am glad he made that decision- because it introduces the concept to the Saudi people- he will be a true participant when there are interfaith dialogues in Saudi Arabia and not just in other countries.

  127. Sarah,in all due respect,i think you are going overboard with the non mixing with non Muslims just for the fact it’s Ramadan. I think this is a great opportunity for Muslims to open up to the community and show our generousness and tolerance. This idea of isolating from non Muslims is extreme n the reason why Islamic critics go on a field day about the intolerance of Islam n its followers,no true. Well,wishing every Muslims a Blessed Ramadan and may Allah increase your Iman towards Him.

  128. Sandy – ” But this is a blog where Carol invites us to share our opinions”

    And this is why you are so judgemental of opinions of others!

    MrsBawazir,
    Playing music at iftar, mixed sitting, delaying prayers, idling away the time ..etc is making a mockery of Ramdan and Islam,
    I have said time and again, we can invite non muslims for iftar in true spirit of Ramadan and for other times throughout the year and have great fun mingling but, MrsBawazir, iftar is not like other gatherings. We still have to be within the halal of Islam even “just for the fact it’s Ramadan”. We cannot break the rules in fear of what non muslims with think. – Thanks.

  129. While i agree with u tht delaying prayers,idling away the time etc are vices but I do believe we can incorporate generosity with non Muslims without undermining our religious duties.some non Muslims are even so deeply inspired by the spirit of Ramadan tht they decided to convert,this is especially so if we allow our non Muslim brothers n sisters to share this special month with us

  130. And yes i agree tht we shouldn’t break the rules in fear of what others think but I don’t see how having a meal with them breaks the rules. They te non Muslims aren’t stupid to serve pork or alcohol to their Musli guests especially for iftar,in fact my non Muslim friends avoid it altogether when they invite me into their home,no pressure from me,just they Re like that. As i don’t serve beef when my Indian friend visits.

  131. There is no problem with being generous with non muslims, in fact it is encouraged. Allah swt Himself provides generously for non believers. I am not against that. I did mention in my previous comments that one can attend such iftars providing there are nothing un-halal such as idols, pork, alcohol, music, semi-nudity …etc. And one should not make it a habit.

    See, it is very easy for non islamic cultural aspects to become part of what islam is supposed to be. For example if music is played at iftar, gradually over time, it becomes something that is acceptable and then that continues for generations. So I feel that it is very risky in this manner to mix the cultures.

    Unless one is sure that it is in the true spirit of Islam, one can attend such events. Many have come to Islam by learning the true meaning of this deen and by muslims acting upon Quran and sunnah, and not by mixing halal with haram. I agree, that by meeting non muslims, we can share our knowledge and this is a good thing.

    Loving and respecting your views.

  132. So educational, seeing the love and tolerance exhibited on this thread…

  133. ” it is very easy for non islamic cultural aspects to become part of what islam is supposed to be. ” – wrong.. if you and your faith hold strong, nothing can change it or dilute it.
    and no one plays music, dresses skimpily and serves pork and alcohol at iftar, everyone who invites muslims knows the seriousness of breaking fast, everyone who is associated with muslims closely enough to invite them to their house for such an occasion knows what ramadhan means. I take offense to the fact that you think we are stupid to not know what an iftar entails.

    you don’t want to go for an iftar – fantastic, it’s fine. but there are a lot of people who don’t mind going and also want to host one.
    I understand you want to say it’s unislamic to mingle and against the priciples of your religion , that is your opinion, pl don’t make it sound like it’s a major sin.

    and sharing knowledge should be both ways, you should learn and teach, you share your religion, i share mine, you don’t have to accept anything and commit a sin , but the tone of comments sounds to me ( maybe it’s just me) that i’ll teach you and share about my stuff but i will not even bother to sit and eat at your house because everything is haram let alone listen to you.

    sorry carol for the rant – sometimes it’s so annoying to see people can’t even get along. we live once and we need to live happily and amicably. I see death and suffering on a daily basis and most of them at this stage want friendhsip, laughter, they don’t crave sitting alone and being isolated lest they commit a sin, they crave human companionship ( of any religion) , a kind work , self-worth, joy and laughter and that’s what gives them peace at the end.

  134. Radha,
    “if you and your faith hold strong, nothing can change it or dilute it.”

    IF you seriously think that, then you are deluded or in denial. It is not about one’s strength of his faith. It is just so natural to happen over time. Do you see how hindu behaviors (for lack of better word) have crept in to indian muslim homes? huh? Indian muslims do things that are not part of Islam but they have been doing it for decades. They are not aware that these customs have hindi origins. Some Muslins even celebrate holi.

    How many Muslims today celebrate Father,s mother’s day. Before you say those are “just lovely” functions – I will say that those are not from Islam and we are not to take things from non beleivers.

    “and no one plays music, dresses skimpily and serves pork and alcohol at iftar, everyone who invites muslims knows the seriousness of breaking fast…”

    Well, NN just explained above that White House plays music during iftar. And I do not doubt in the least bit about the mixed sitting and the mode of dressing.I myself have been to an iftar where there even was a live band! And no prayer place was in sight. It is a mockery of this special month.

    “I take offense to the fact that you think we are stupid to not know what an iftar entails”

    Then what do you say about White House iftars? They don’t seem to know what it entails.

    “pl don’t make it sound like it’s a major sin”

    Yes it does become a sin when the culture mingles so much so that one cannot even draw a line. Praying with idols or pictures around is a no-no. It is indisobedience to Islam – so it becomes a sin. Small sins lead to bigger and bigger ones.

    I am all for sharing knowledge – is iftar the one gathering in which one can do this? Why don’t you arrange a huge picnic and invite people from all faiths and share all what you have. Is not a bad idea. :)

    Peace

  135. “:Do you see how hindu behaviors (for lack of better word) have crept in to indian muslim homes?” — it has not crept unknown into any homes. + There are a few muslims and christians who have converted into islam and christianity and retained their customs and origins, just because you believe in a diff religion doesn’t mean you let go of what you did before and take on the culture of saudi arabia.

    e.g christians in some parts of india wear a thali ( chain) instead of exchanging rings and wear a sari instead of a white gown. This is a traditional indian custom.. that’s because they follow the traditions of their land and their ancestors. just like in hindu marriages we exchange rings nowadays – a typically christian tradition pperhaps ??? nothing to do with anything creepingin.
    islam is a relatively new religion, people existed and followed traditions before islam came around and accepting islam means accepting the one god not so much what we wear and eat.

    As for celebrating fathers day and mothers day – it’s a hallmark holiday nothing more nothing less.

    and i still say if your faith is strong, you stick to it, don’t go to any iftars, there are a billion muslims on this planet whose faith is strong enough to resist mixed gatherings and music :-) maybe their faith is much stronger than the norm, maybe they are so secure in their faith that nothing can shake them — ever thought of that??

  136. And .. no one is forcing anyone ot go to an iftar hosted by non-muslims. this is a free world. so you don’t have to celebrate /pray/ etc., with anyone. It’s a choice.

    just like it is our choice to host a iftar and welcome our friends. it is their choice to mix or not mix cultures .. so far i have never received a negative response, for the past 2 decades i have been hosting iftars and so far not even one of our muslims friends have lost their faith, they seem to be on track and more than anything good human beings.
    they are strong in their faith and this ramadan i’m thankful to have them as my friends.

    so to those of you who don’t mind, hope you ahve a great ramadhan, lots of peace , a calm mind and FREE CHOICE.

  137. Radha,
    Maybe in some cases it has not crept in unknown but in many others cases it has. And it is vice versa, too. It is possible that because of converts, some still retain their old customs. But I know Muslim families who have been muslims for centuries and still they follow hindu customs. So it is not always the case as you are saying. But it is possible.

    “– it’s a hallmark holiday nothing more nothing less”
    It is not the issue of hallmark or any other marks – it is still a foreign custom. I did not know that father’s, mother’s days were even holidays.

    I repeat that it is not matter of strength of faith or being secure – it is simply taking precautions and not going against the halal teachings. How can you not get that?

    Yes it is definately a choice. I know how it is when you know someone who is not muslim and you are kind of close and when you invite him/her, they feel awkward to not accept. Even though in their hearts they might not be comfortable, they will accept for the sake of friendship and out of politness. I get that.

    If I was there, I would be open about it and politely not accept an invitation not because I disrecpect you but in obedience to my beliefs which I feel is more important. But I would gladly invite you anytime anywhere. :)

    Have a good one!

  138. Hi Sandy
    There had been interfaith dialogue before in Italy and Saudia but all failed. Because religions can not be mixed up and made one.

  139. Dear Aafke-Art
    i think you have grow now. Sara is already grown and sensible.

  140. Dear sara
    May Allah swt give you more wisdom and health to propagate true spirit of Islam and make others understand. You are right saying Ramadan is a month of Quran and NOT socialising.

  141. Hi Sandy
    Better you change your society. You must choose people of tolerance.

  142. Dear Sara
    Please take it easy. You know what Allah say about these people who do not belive in His Signs?
    Let them enjoy life as they wish and punished.

  143. Hi Sarah & Sami,

    Having read your long rants and your fatwas therein …. on everything being declared practically haram from music to not mixing with non-muslims to looking at fathers/mothers day as sinful … reminds of a fatwa that was issued in Egypt yesterday: New ‘Frog Fatwa': Amphibians Sacrosanct, Croaking Praises Allah.

    Following the presidential victory of the Muslim Brotherhood, the very first fatwa to appear by Egypt’s highest fatwa council addresses — not social, political, or economic issues in Egypt — but rather frogs. Specifically, it bans Muslims from hunting and killing frogs to sell to those nations that dine on the amphibians.

    As the fatwa explains, according to Islam’s prophet Mohammad as recorded in a hadith, a frog’s “croaking is praise [to Allah].” Accordingly, “a number of jurists [fuqaha] have relied on this [hadith] to forbid the eating of frogs, under the notion that that which is banned from being killed, is forbidden from being eaten.”

    Unlike the many other fatwas dealing with animals, including cartoon characters — such as the fatwa to kill Mickey Mouse — this frog fatwa is ostensibly humanitarian. Yet, in reality, it only proves how enslaved Muslim societies are to the random words of their prophet.

    A prophet who, on one occasion ordered the killing of all black dogs because they are “devils,” while making frogs sacrosanct for praising Allah with their croaks — a prophet who, to non-Muslims, was just a 7th century Arab, whose words, obvious reflections of a 7th century mentality, millions of people still cling to today — and, hence, a prophet who is at the heart of the international dilemma widely known as “radical Islam” and “radical jihad”.

    Sarah and Sami, I don’t know this for sure, but both of you certainly come across as talibs (students) of wahabbi or deobandi or barelvi sects of islam and their madrassas :)-

  144. Yes, Sami, I do understand – just doing my bit.

  145. “Ramadan is a month of Quran and NOT socialising”

    Sami, abolutely right!

  146. xmoozlum,
    And your point is ….?

  147. Thanks for the invite :-) and don’t worry the muslims who come to my place for iftar have no such uncomfortable feelings . they are not shy and state their mind quite clearly ..

    for the others we have iftar daily :-) F needs to break his fast an d much prefers my food to the greasy stuff outside ..vegetarian food only and very healthy options . Aafke you should come sometime when you are in the area…

    have a good ramadhan .

  148. Sarah, on July 3, 2012 at 8:35 pm said: xmoozlum, And your point is …?

    I figured you won’t get the point on the first try. This proves fer sure that you graduated from a madrassa where thinking skills are not taught. Just rote learning.

    Anyway, here was the “point” I was trying to convey:

    Why do you follow a “holy book” copy/pasted by a “prophet” who, on one occasion ordered the killing of all black dogs because they are “devils,” while making frogs sacrosanct for praising Allah with their croaks. Following this logic, shouldn’t all the birds/animals be made sacrosanct for praising Allah with their croaks?

    A prophet who, to non-Muslims, was just a 7th century Arab, whose words, obvious reflections of a 7th century mentality, millions of people still cling to today like you and sami.

    Why do you follow a prophet who is at the heart of the international dilemma widely known as “radical Islam” and “radical jihad”?

    Because of a lack of thinking skills, it may take a few tries before you finally get it ….

  149. Everyone should read Sarah’s comments. there is hardly a better advocate for the nastyness of religion and why I am sooo happy I was not brainwashed into Islam. What a nasty cold religion!

    I will make sure to quote Sarah’s comments in future when I explain to people who don’t know about Islam how horrible a belief system it is.
    Thank you Sarah for giving me the tools to keep many people from liking your religion.

  150. PS, Which Muslim wants to come and break fast at my house? I will provide dates and milk, Heavy Metal music, and a nice vegetarian meal.
    And tea and Algerian pastry for dessert.

    In between courses you can pet my adorable dog and cat, and look at my art and collections, and my antique Shiva and Ganesh statues. And all my pictures.
    And of course everybody is welcome at Christmas and Diwali too!

    And to top of the evening we can watch a nice horror movie, with demons and vampires. Or zombies. Or werewolves. Or ghosts. Or witches.
    Or we’ll just watch all the Harry Potter movies!
    Or the Lord of the Rings.
    Or Star Trek.
    Or Dr Who.
    Or Babylon V

  151. Radha, I will certainly come! I love food! ;)
    By the end of the year I will have settled everything and then I will be freer to travel!
    Although Carol has first rights….

  152. Sami,
    You do not know what interfaith means. It is not about making all religions one. It is about people of all religions learning at least a little bit about each other and respecting each other and learning not to fight about it.

    You are right- I live in an intolerant place- but I am not leaving. I will do what I can to make it more tolerant.

  153. X,there’s no need to be snooty.

    Aafke,honestly I for one would love to see your hosting skills but I dread the heavy-metal music(is it even considered music,just unbearable noise as far as I’m concerned).

    Honestly, I’ve asked some friends pertaining to this topic and they are religious and they all answered as long as the food is halal n we don’t forget to pray,it’s A ok. U see X,we not fanatics as u make out.maybe u are mixing Pakistani custom with Islam.

  154. Mrs Bawazir, for you I will change the selection.
    I will play Fayruz.

    Sarah, you wrote:
    *Yes it does become a sin when the culture mingles so much so that one cannot even draw a line. Praying with idols or pictures around is a no-no. It is indisobedience to Islam – so it becomes a sin. Small sins lead to bigger and bigger ones.
    I am all for sharing knowledge – is iftar the one gathering in which one can do this? Why don’t you arrange a huge picnic and invite people from all faiths and share all what you have. Is not a bad idea.
    :)*

    Was that a smiley?
    In your comment?
    You actually add idols to your comment????
    I am deeply shocked!!!!
    Have you noticed that your avatar is also an idol???

    Small sins lead to bigger ones….. :twisted:

  155. X-Moozlum
    The reason I asked what the points was, not because I did not get what your rant, but I wanted to know the connection to iftar. This post is about iftar and your comment did not connect. Sorry to disappoint but thanks for the effort you took to explain.

    MrsBawazir said : ” I’ve asked some friends pertaining to this topic and they are religious and they all answered as long as the food is halal n we don’t forget to pray,it’s A ok”

    AND that is what I have been saying all along – going into more details and explaining it here and there. And we all know what is halal and haram. They are not to be mixed. Thank you Mrs B. :)

  156. You’re welcome Sarah n may Allah ease your endeavours inshallah.

  157. Hi Aafke-Art
    Kee[p your ideas with your self. No body needs.

  158. sami, on June 30, 2012 at 4:41 pm said: Dear American Bedu – I am a young Saudi 25 year old and I am an ” atheist ”. And it is a big problem as you may expect. Tired of life in this country. What do you think is the solution?

    So Sami, you’ve been an “atheist” all along masquerading as a wahabi muslim all this time? :)-

  159. MrsBawazir, on July 4, 2012 at 4:09 am said: X,there’s no need to be snooty.

    Snooty? WTH iz dat??? Oh you mean Snotty. Ok thx for the compliment. XoXo

  160. Sami, I will say what i want to say.
    What are you going to do about it?
    . :mrgreen:

  161. My Dear MOOZLUM
    You are really XXX. I am neither Ethiest nor WAHABI. I am muslim with strong beliefs.
    You are tired because yr beliefs are torn apart.

  162. sami, somebody who does not believe in magic stuff cannot have their belief in magic stuff torn apart.

  163. sami,

    I apologize if I mistook you for your twin. I saw the comment under “Dear Bedu” by a “sami” who sounded sort of like you. Oh well …. mea culpa :)-

    http://americanbedu.com/dear-bedu/#comment-89337

  164. different avatar

  165. Snooty x,snooty but snotty is also applicable for u.exhibit A of snotty http://www.shauni.co.uk/assets/images/SnottyElephantSeal.jpg

    As for complimenting u,not likely.

  166. As many regular AB readers know, I’ve been away from the blog the past week due to being hospitalized and as a result, had no idea of what was being avidly discussed on the blog.

    It’s so obvious there will be a wide spectrum of opinion by Muslim readers on their view of whether to attend an iftar hosted by a non-Muslim.

    Personally, I still strongly encourage a non-Muslim to host an iftar during Ramadan. Depending on the Muslims who are invited it’s easy to decide and accommodate non-mixing based on the relationship.

    I’m saddened that there are those whose comments demonstrate a lack of faith that a non-Muslim is understanding and would be outright stupid to make huge Islamic gaffes such as in dress or food. I do not think these views help build any bridges between differing faiths and do perpetuate an aura of radical Islam.

  167. I have just returned from a lovely holiday and feel refreshed.

    To all my Muslim friends, I wish you a very blessed RAMADAN!!

    I have just read a few replies to my last blogs…

    Big stick, I read the article that you directed me to. It is quite simply flawed. The author has not researched the man named JESUS thoroughly enough, or indeed has decided to omit information. Sadly though, this is to be expected from an ATHIEST.

    Evidence of the existince of Jesus is not only in the New testament.

    Cornelius Tacitus ( 55- 120 AD) Was a 1st and 2nd Roman Historian known for his reputation of honesty and vigorous and thorough cross examinations of evidence.

    Gaius Suetonius tranquillus ( 69-130AD) Prominant Roman Historian who recorded the lives of Roman caesars and events surrounding their reigns.

    Josephus a 1st century Jewish historian….. And the list goes on

    It is not my responsibility to convince you that Jesus is Lord. However, I will defend His existence and His deity.

    To refer to the Holy Bible as ‘a book of absurdities’ is a statement which in itself is absurd.

    Aafk-Art,

    There are not multiple creation stories in the bible. Only one.

    The letters by paul may not all have been written by him, but that does not mean that the sentiments were not his. Paul was a teacher and had students with whom he shared his experiences and his beliefs. It may be true that some of his students my have written some letters based on paul’s truths. What is more important about Paul is His conversion from judaism to Christianity and how God works in his life.

    Paul was originally Saul of Tarsus, a zealous Pharisee and member of the ‘Zealot Party’ who persecuted Christians. However, on the road to damascus where he was on a mission to arrest and possibly execute as many Christians as he could, his journey was interrupted when he saw a blinding light and communicated with jesus. Acts 9:3-9 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but seeing no man, the voice said “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me”? And he said, “who are you Lord”? And He said “Iam Jesus who you persecute, but rise and enter into the city and you will be told what to do. And Saul got up and could not see, and the men led him by the hand and brought him into damascus and he was 3 days without sight and did not eat or drink.

    The account continues with a description of annanias of damascus receiving a divine revelation instructing him to visit Saul at the house of judas on the street called straight and lay hands on him to restore his sight. Ananias was initially reluctant having heard of saul’s persecution, but obeys the divine command and lays hands on saul, thus restoring his sight.

    Paul becomes zealous for Christianity, encouraging new christians to grow in spiritual maturity and to live godly lives. He rebukes quarrelling christians who forget their new purpose and mission.And rightly so. He desires that the Holy Spirit controls them, not him.

    As for hating women, that is a miss interpretation of what is written. Paul lived in a time where women were seen as a commodity and had no rights. He instructs men to Love their wives as themselves and as Christ loved the Church. He instructs women to submit to their husbands.If a man loves His wife as himself, respecting and submitting is easy. In addition husbands and wives were to make God the head of their family. If Paul hated women, why would he instruct men to love their wives in this way?

    God Bless

  168. Dear American Bedu,

    Iam sorry to read that you have been unwell. I pray that God will restore your health.

    God bless you

  169. Sapphire:

    What church did Christ have?

    Have you read the gnosis gosphel?

    I will discuss more on the topic a little later as I am press for time. However, I really want you to answer the first question.

  170. Sapphire:

    Here is another site. You have no evidence only text written 70 to 100 years after the fact which could have been based on a story and nothing more like Harry Potter.

    http://markmaynard.com/2012/06/did-jesus-exist/

  171. Sapphire:

    19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

    This is from 1 Corinthians 9:19 -9:23 where Paul is stating that he will lie to promote christianity.

    He is a liar.

  172. Big stick, the church Jesus has is not a place. True followers of Christ are His Church. They are the body of Christ.

    Read the following book. When Heaven Invades Earth. Bill Johnston.

    This should answer all your questions. I Have no more to say. God Bless You

  173. Infact I have one more thing to say.

    You think Paul was a liar. That’s your opinion.

    What about Jesus?

    Do you think He is a liar?

    When Jesus is handed over to the council of Religious leaders and they condemn Jesus they said, ” Tell us, are you the Messiah?”

    But He replied,

    “If I tell you, you won’t believe me. And if I ask you a question you won’t answer. But from now on the Son of Man will be seated in the place of power at God’s right hand.

    Jesus also said;

    ‘I am the bread of life’ (John 6:35)
    ‘I am the light of the world’ (John 8:12)
    ‘I am the ressurection and the life’ (John 11:25,26)
    ‘Receive me, receive God’ (matthew 10:40)
    ‘Welcome me, welcome God’ (Mark 9:37)
    ‘To have seen me is to have seen God’ (John 14:9)

    C.S. Lewis wrote:

    ‘A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things that Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be insane or else He would be ‘the devil of hell’. You must make your choice. Either Jesus was, and is the Son of God or else He was insane or evil. Let us not come up with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.’

  174. Furthermore,

    The Holy Quran was written 100 years after the death of the prophet Mohammed. Your argument is even weaker, as God spoke to Him via an Angel in a cave.
    Jesus was seen and heard and touched by many people. He had 12 apostles and many disciples.
    His miracles were recorded not only by his followers, but by pre christian Romans and Jewish Historians. He did not claim to be a prophet of God. He claimed to be the Son of God and that is why the Jewish high priests had Him crucified. But they did not expect Him to be ressurected. He was and they tried to cover it up.

    I will leave this with you.

    God Bless You

  175. no offence.

    how can abraham and isaac be muslims when islam itself was actually emerged ad 600ish.

    and abou the letter to the corinthians….from paul
    that was not lying he tried to save people through the love of Jesus.

    if you TRULY TRULY believethe weatherforcast that it will rain what would you do?? you will take your umbrella of course because you believed the forcast

    you truly believe that you are a sinner and your sin leads you to hell, Jesus has died to sort out your sinin front of God instead of us. what would you do?what would you do if you got to know your sin leads you to hell and Jesus had sorted all out? you will definately think about yoir loved ones because you dont want them to go to hell.

    can you be speechless if you know your family goes to hell because of their sin, and thete is a solution which can stop them from going there?

    thats what paul did to OTHERS.
    infact WHY BOTHER? i am already saved through jesus.
    can you do spmething for others like this. actually we could be speechless as we know there are lots of people who insult us saying this.
    but our conscious says….
    they should know whether they chiise to believe it or not tjey have a right to know about what Jesus did. bcz theres nothing more important than Your life anyway.
    whoever you are God cares for you. he never shoce you off even if you are a horrific sinner.

    paul . he persecuted all the christians and killed and even went to another country chasing after christians to accuse and kill them. and on the way to Damascus he met jesus and preach Jesus. do you think this can really happen if the

    if you TRULY believe that

  176. sapphire:

    I provide this for now and will provide more later. I am a bit busy.

    http://atheism.about.com/od/gospelcontradictions/Gospel_Contradictions_Gospels_are_Full_of_Contradictions_Errors.htm

    Justifing the bible with the bible is not going to work by the way.

  177. There is very liittle physical eye witness evidence of the man Jesus durinng the time period he was said to live…..other than the bible. Historians during that time period do not write of him….his miracles are mentioned nowhere other than the bible…you would think at least those would be worth mentioning by eye witnesses in other places other than the bible. There is very little proof of his existence other than the bible says so. Hardly a testament of validity.

  178. And that;s weird, considering he lived in a Rman province, and the Romans wrote down everything, something should have been written down…
    But then the Bible gets a lot of stuff wrong. There never was a tax scheme for which everybody had to go back to their city of origin, that would have resulted in total chaos. and btw, that would certainly have been written down. Historical people mentioned are in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc. etc.
    The bible stories are messed up completely, you don’t want to use such a messy book as ”proof”.
    And it’s not at all sure that if Jesus existed he considered himself as the ”Son of God”, The son of god dogma was only introduced to Christianity (Jesus was a Jew) hundreds of years later.

    Actually, it was nothing extraordinary at the time, everybody who amounted to something claimed they were the child of some god or goddess, it was practically banal at that time to be of divine origin.

  179. Sapphire:

    Really I don’t believe in Jesus but if he existed then I would have to Strongly considered this on his personality disorder:

  180. Sapphire

    I am interested in your opinion about Moses and whether you think of him as “lire” or prophet or great human teacher or insane or son of God. And what to do you think about the revelation that he passed to his nation at the time.

    Aafke
    Do you know any Roman history book that was written 2000 years ago and still exist today. This will be very interesting book to read.

  181. I once read a book – How to Win an Election — apparently it’s a translation from a txt in 64 BC by Quintus on advice on running a successful campaign.

    it was hilarious- although i don’t read latin so i’m going by the translation and whatever changes were introduced.

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