Saudi Arabia: Are Allah and Yahweh the Same God?

When referring to God, one may hear God referred to by the name of Allah or perhaps by the name of Yahweh.  In fact, many names have been given to God.

However, a question I hear commonly asked is whether Christians and Muslims believe in or worship the same God.  Muslims, who identify Mohammed as the Prophet of God, believe in Allah.  Whereas Christians, who believe Jesus is the son of God, believe in Yahweh.

So do Muslims recognize Jesus or Christians recognize Mohammed?  Are the respective God’s one and the same?

Daniel Janosik of Columbia International University wrote an interesting article on this same subject.  I’d like to encourage American Bedu readers to view the article by Janosik and then share their views.

I think it is important to build bridges of understanding between Muslims and Christians but first of all, can we agree on who or what is God?

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95 Responses

  1. Yallah ! I can’t believe this issue just seems to hang around.

    It is known that Muhammad PBUH talked to many Jewish and Christian scholars before he was guided to start Islam. It is frustrating to me that any well studied student of God would think that Allah SWT, Yahweh, God and Jehovah are not the same God.

    One thing that drives me to distraction is that there can be so much confusion and hate surrounding Jesus Christ. Essentially, Muslims and Christians believe nearly the same thing about Isa PBUH with the exception of the problem with whether he was crucified or not. There is a historical book of the time, Nicodemus, I think, wrote it and his account is that the crowd believed that Judas was the Christ and was crucified in his place.

    People who get upset and angry over this issue are ignoring the prime directive given to us by Allah SWT, and that is to love Allah SWT and love each other. I say that if a person can not do those two things then they are wasting their time and should just go get drunk and play with fast women every night.

  2. When discussing ANY of the above mentioned deity “names”, the author failed in one important aspect to consider the viewpoint of the idea of the “name”.
    If I have a dog in the house and only one dog, I don’t ask my wife to put the dog out by name, but only “can you put the dog out?”
    When we had a cat, she didn’t ask me to change the litter box or feed the cat by name, only do it under the term cat (as in “change the cat’s litter box, it is starting to smell.”)
    From BOTH faiths (OK, really, three faiths, as Judaism comes into this one a bit), there is one key perspective to consider.
    In Christianity, Jesus (called Isa to Muslims) is the literal son of God, a part of God. The God, if you wish, as a singular god needs no name, any more than if I had the last Dodo on Earth and it would require a name, its species name would suffice, the godhood would need no name, as there is only one. For Muslims and Jews, Jesus was a prophet.
    As for the reality of any of the above mentioned views, that is entirely subjective to the views of the reader, be they atheist, agnostic, deist, dog catcher, ad absurdium).

    Gwendolyn, I firmly believe in what your last sentence said, but also permit that person to get drunk and play with his fast wife every night. ;)
    OK, NOT get both at once, drink giveth the desire, but remove the ability to please.

  3. I think Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in the God of Abraham. In that case God is the same. However we believe different things about Him and that’s where these “is this the same God” questions come into play.

  4. Susanne430, you hit upon the very crux of the issue, one that atheists pounce upon.
    What HUMANS wrote vs a deity’s advice to humans.
    ALL religions speak of certain moral codes. They also, humanly correctly, but not necessarily deity correctly, speak to defense of said advice/faith.
    I consider one thing: Would ANY deity create such a vast universe that we CANNOT possibly observe ALL of it, micromanage singular planets, let alone a singular ethnic group? Or would such a deity give a general message to multiple cultures and hope they go for their higher nature, rather than their primate nature?
    So far, we have primate…
    Frankly, I’d rather deal with chimps than humans, THEY make sense!

  5. I think it’s incredibly silly to compare two make-belief stories as if they were factual accounts, and then opine on who is closer to the truth. Christians describe their god one way, Muslims another, Jews yet one more. They are all but stories.

  6. Very well, NN. Rather than accept the beliefs of all, you commit your notion of a nation to war against ALL.
    For, that IS how ANY faith regards such notions.
    Could you please form your own island nation, rather than commit a secular nation of many, many faiths to war against ALL faiths, including those of its own populace?
    Or more simply, I’ll fight to the death to defend your belief in atheism. I’ll also fight to the death to defend the belief of every OTHER faith in our nation.
    Of note, the death isn’t my own. I’m far nastier than that.
    Better yet, learn a frigging lesson from our founding fathers, who accepted ALL faiths, NOT rejecting any and not forcing ANY view on the followers of ANY faiths.
    Or are you a fascist and want no faith other than your fascist faith?

  7. Jeez dude, take a chill pill. I don’t subscribe to any faith. This doesn’t mean I want to open a war on any of them – I am not sure why or how you read that into my comments. Whatever the reason, it reflects more on you than on me. I’m free not to believe. And if a member of any faith feels threatened by someone not believing in it, it certainly says more about them than about me, a nonbeliever. I am not sure why you feel that nonbelief=war on belief, but then again, I’ve never had useful insights into mental illness.

    So yeah, take a chill pill. If you want to fight to the death of whoever, go right ‘head, it makes zero difference to me if you live or die. Your claims of big nasty come across as ridiculous chest-thumping.

  8. NN, you come across as an atheist, of which this particular forum has a plethora of, more of a militant atheist nature (if you grasp that concept).
    Even so, I’d fight to the death for YOUR views as well. As I’d do the same for mine. Some CONSTITUTION thing going on and all. :)
    I swore an oath generations ago, my oath never had an expiration date, honor also doesn’t have an expiration date.
    But, there is no chest thumping here. Only real military experience supporting the populace AND constitution. The constitution winning always.
    No slight intended, perhaps a misunderstanding of what you said, as I tend to be really literal in current SCOTUS decisions and support of populace and overall support. But, violence is my LAST recourse. indeed, it’d be equal to burning one’s house down over bed bugs, rather than exterminating them.
    In civil reality, extermination is far from a goal. Learning is.
    The total understanding is closer to reality, IF ALL is truly revealed to the populace. As in Operation Ajax would have NEVER went through if the populace were considered, as a democratic government was replaced by the CIA over mere national protection over stolen by the UK corporations oil.
    As I’ve said frequently, there ain’t no saints and plenty of sinners…
    Moving on seems to be a current problem. :/
    Perhaps some should consider the CURRENT burning house, THEN reconsider the fighting INSIDE of it…

  9. Janosik is using the kind of argument that shows a willingness to be ignorant. Yes, the idea of God in Christianity is different than the idea of God in Islam but there is no denying the Christianity adopted the scriptures of Judaism and the Jewish idea of God is no more a trinity than the God of Islam.

  10. NN,you seem to always resort to insult someone on their mental capability when tyt someone disagrees with you. Wzrd made sense with his remark,on the other hand, you carelessly splattered your atheistic view on a rather sensitive topic. By all means, be free to be an atheist, but,as Wzrd mentioned,by your attitude its perhaps time for you to form your own isolated nation?

  11. .. and I should add few Christians would want to deny that the God of Christianity is the God of Judaism (and hence of Islam)

  12. Erm, Jerry, you seem to have, possibly deliberately, decided on the direct converse of BOTH faiths.
    Jews consider Christ and “God” in a slightly different order, due to corruption of faith.
    The Christians consider the same on both.
    YOU put the cart far before the horse was even born!
    Or is this more of the tea party revisionist history, like Stalin did before them?

  13. Daniel Janosik wrote:

    (The Jews realized that Jesus was referring to himself as God and took up stones to stone him for what they believed was blasphemy.)

    I wonder if this is happening today, where America is going to stand? with the jews, or with Jesus?

  14. @ NN

    NN you are my most favorite commentator on AB blog. You are but one of the only few sane voices here!

    ” ,,,,, Christians describe their god one way, Muslims another, Jews yet one more. They are all but stories.

    That sums it all up beautifully. Short and Sweet!

    @ MrsBawazir, on May 14, 2012 at 7:22 am said: NN,you seem to always resort to insult someone on their mental capability when tyt someone disagrees with you.

    All NN said was “I’ve never had useful insights into mental illness”. NN can speak for herself, but from my personal perspective, she made a general statement not directed at any one in particular. Another way of restating the same is to say “I don’t suffer fools gladly” which means that I am intolerant of people who are stupid, I am irritated by foolishness, etc. etc.

    Not sure why you are making a mountain out of a molehill?

  15. Does it really matter if it’s the same god or different? Maybe they are both god, along with some more up there why shouldthat matter, follow what you want to follow and let the others do as they please.
    All our problems stem from the fact that man is intolerant , we want others to believe what we believe in and any diff belief is not to be tolerated.. I don’t think we’d have any religious headaches,problems ,killings int his world if we all simply agreed that everyone has a diff view of god and what that view is is their private opinion nbot to be thrust upon anyone.

    I say time and time again, I’ve lived more than 2 decades in love and harmony and lot of fun with a muslim , I’m not one and we’ve never had a religious difference, who does the dishes maybe but never who prays to which god. so i know it’s possible insipte of what the religious heads tell us. we all need to use the brain we were bestowed and thinkf or ourself instead of mindlessly following another human like demeneted sheep ( my husband’s saying) :-)

  16. @Wzrd1

    Not sure what you mean here.

  17. It is always interesting following comments on a blog issue that you write. It reveals that some people actually try to engage with the ideas, but it also, unfortunately, demonstrates that a lot of the responders have not even read the article but merely respond to the title. As I said, this is unfortunate, because this issue between Allah and Yahweh is of immense importance, if the Bible is true. If the New Testament is not true, then as one of responders alluded to, we should all “eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.” However, if the Bible is true, then there are eternal consequences, whether you believe what it says or not. That is why I take these things seriously.
    Without reproducing the whole introduction, let me comment on the following selection:
    “But wait a minute, some will say. What about the Arabic Christians who call the God of the Bible “Allah”? Doesn’t this illustrate the fact that Allah and Yahweh are referring to the same God? Actually, when the Arabic Christians refer to “Allah” in their translation of the Bible, they believe that “Allah” is the father of Jesus and they believe that “Allah” is triune. Therefore, the Allah of the Arabic Christians cannot be the same Allah of the Muslims! This semantic [shibboleth] strangulation can be cleared up if we remember that words have both a denotative and a connotative meaning. Denotation refers to a dictionary definition, so it would be correct to say that Yahweh and Allah both refer to the concept of God, especially for their respective language groups. However, the connotation is determined by what a person conceives about the object of that word. For example, an Arab Christian may still use the word “Allah” to denote God, but his understanding of that term would be starkly different from a Muslim, for the Christian would recognize that Jesus Christ is God (Allah) whereas the Muslim would never consider that connotation. Thus, denotatively the word “allah” merely refers to “god, deity, etc.” However, we understand the denotative use by our connotative presuppositions. Therefore, “Allah” for the Muslim cannot be reconciled with the “Jesus is Allah” of the Arabic Christians. There is still a world of difference between the content of the word (connotation), even if the denotation is the same. Without this very important distinction made when we refer to “Allah” and “God” (Yahweh), a lot of Christians will be confused.

    After comparing the Allah of the Qur’an and the Yahweh of the Bible, it should be apparent that they could not be referring to the same God. Either the Muslim Allah is the true God or the Christian Yahweh is the true God, or neither is true. As the Law of non-Contradiction teaches, they both cannot be true. One thing should be sure, though, the God of Muhammad cannot be the Father of Jesus.”

    In brief, then, while “Allah” in a denotative sense can refer to the God of the Bible, in a connotative sense you cannot make the “Allah” of the Qur’an out to be the same “Yahweh” of the Bible, for, as I said above, the God (Allah) of Muhammad cannot be the Father of Jesus.

    Also, Jerry seems to want to understand how the Trinity fits together in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. If you are really interested, here is a link to a lecture that I did titled “How to Explain the Trinity to a Muslim.” (http://vimeo.com/30253431).

  18. I think they are the same ”god”. Or basically the same fairy tale. Maybe there’s a bit of Hubal thrown in, you know, one of the Gods of the Kaaba, but when you read the Quran it’s so blatantly copied, or god ”inspired” Mohammed to copy, from the bible, Complete with fairy tales (copied from the Jews) and the mistakes like Mary being a ”virgin” (wrong translation from the Greek, Mary was a ”young maiden” in the earlier Greek versions, that I would say yes, basically the same ”god”.

    And Jaweh is ofcourse the old Jewish war-god, whose faction threw the other gods of the Jews out, and Christianity is a sect of Judaism, and Islam is plagiarized from Judaism and Christianity, with some of pagan rituals thrown in (Probably because the Mecca pilgrim business was a big money maker), and some basic hygiene rules, because apparently the morons he dealt with did not realize it’s not a good idea to stand pissing against a strong wind…
    So yes, same made up tales, same mistakes in translations, same penchant for misogyny, same liking for slavery, same invisible sky-daddy.

  19. Gwendolyn, I have noticed there seems to be some chronological order to your skipping from one religion and then discarding it for the next. So what are you going to do after you get tired of Mormonism? Scientology?
    And as you are now a mormon, you don’t have to keep up the ”pbhu”-nonsense. You’re an apostate from the Muslim point of view.

    Maybe you should try something a bit more New Age next year.

  20. Animists believe in a supreme being as well as other peoples not part of ‘the book’ trilogy of religions. Indigenous peoples have a name for this supreme being in their own language. Each individual regardless of what organized religion he or she belongs to will have in their own mind what their God, Allah, Jaweh, Great Spirit, or whatever word/s you want to use is.

  21. @Dr. Janosik

    I understand your point, that character and attributes of the Christian god are very different from the character and attributes of Allah. If you are a biblical literalist, this may be important but for anyone else, it is not. Islam was created from a pastiche of Old Testament legends with some New Testament legends. To my ears Allah is very reminiscent of the God of the Old Testament who is a very jealous and angry god. Why the more loving character of Jesus didn’t seep into Islam is a matter of debate, but there is no denying the product of Jewish and Arab myths .

  22. @NN:

    Now your a militant atheist. Don’t feel bad, I am a militant atheist and a bigot.

    You see I blog about my dislike of religion, point out the absurdity by writing about it, the contradictions, by writing about it, the history and archeology behind it by writing about it and all this writing about it, well……this makes me a militant atheist unlike militant christians and islamist who just blow shit up.

    Next I am a bigot as I do not like people who kill apostates, kill witches, discriminate based upon sex, race, or other nonchangable factors. I don’t like people who endorse slavery either regular type of a social construct also know as marriage (sexual slavery) in some countries depending on how stacked it is against the woman. I don’t like kids getting beaten nor women that includes lightly beaten. I don’t like women imprisoned or told they have to wear particular articles of clothing to be deemed worthy and many times this clothing keeps them from getting acid in their face.

    Now you are being considered a militant atheist and in the near future you could become a bigot.

    Now just so you know I have come to embrace that which I am based upon my descriptors. I will not let it deter me in my efforts to educate nor in my efforts to shine the light on inhumanity; nor should you.
    :D Hope this gives you a different perspective. Enjoy.

  23. @NN

    Oh. Don’t worry about Wrzd I think he tends to get off his medication from time to time and ramble incoherent garble.
    :)

    For everybody else, I see the discuss as a waste of time as the God/Allah is the same (fairytale – make believe).

    However it really doesn’t matter in the end if they are the same or not as it is an evil made up deity that encourages evil things by a made up manmade rule laden hate dogma.

  24. Aafke-Art, on May 14, 2012 at 6:07 pm said: And as you are now a mormon, you don’t have to keep up the ”pbhu”-nonsense. You’re an apostate from the Muslim point of view.

    Oh Aafke-Art, you are so funny. I am ROTFLMAO :)-

    I guess using “pbuh nonsense” is Gwen’s false security blanket as an apostate, not to get beheaded!!

  25. I wonder how much Gwen really understood of Islam, because she seems unaware of her status as a legitimate target for some assassin gaining some hasanat.

    Anyway, about the article, this is really a question of semantics; Yahweh is the old Jewish war god, so of course he’s nasty, But where I come from Christians do not refer to ”Yahweh” but to ”god”. And Allah is just the Arabic word for ”god” isn’t it? So from a language point of view God is god. Arabic speaking Christians call ”god” Allah too.

    So as far as the actual, nasty, torturing, insecure, worshippyneedy, cruel, jealous, invisible skydaddy goes, it’s all the same. They are not called the ”Abrahamic religions” for nothing, they are all sects of the same religion.

  26. I cannot understand how any sane person can come on here and claim that NN is a ”militant atheist”.
    What’s ”millitant” about NN? Her claim that she doesn’t bel;ieve in myths and fairy tales? He shocking denial of faith in Santaclaus, the toothfairy, the Celestial Teaport and the magical sky-daddy?

    Or is it her terror striking combination of a sense of humor +rationality?
    I can see where that would scare those who do believe in non-substantiated myths, that particular combination is deadly. But it is not ”millitant”

    I think you just like the word ”militant”. Maybe you just learned it and now you want to use it on everything and everybody who scares you. It’s still the wrong word to use.

    PS, I am not off topic, this post is really about semantics, and using the wrong words just because you are miffed with somebody and having it pointed out to you has also to do with semantics! :twisted:

  27. Dr Janosik you said *because this issue between Allah and Yahweh is of immense importance, if the Bible is true. If the New Testament is not true……*

    You forget that the Abrahamic faiths are not the only option, there are lots of other option, lots of other religions, older and more recent with just as much validity (or invalidity) as the Abrahamic God of War. Nor does a non-religious stance equal some sort of orgiastic anarchy.

    On the contrary, reality in our current time shows that the less religion in a country, the more civilized, advanced, prosperous, educated, and happy the people are. (especially women)

  28. Aafke-Art,
    If there is only one true God, then there is only one true religion. Unfortunately there are a lot of examples of degeneration and corruption that have brought about the many forms that we have today. If you are interested in this topic, then you may want to listen to my lecture on the Origin of Religion found here:
    http://vimeo.com/22827369

    As far as your last statement is concerned,
    “On the contrary, reality in our current time shows that the less religion in a country, the more civilized, advanced, prosperous, educated, and happy the people are. (especially women),”

    if you study a bit of history you will find that the best, and the worst, societies are the ones based on following religious views. However, the truly intelligent person will realize that religion is mostly about man searching for God. I am most interested in the God who has found me, and loved me so much that he has died for my sins so that I can enjoy the richest of all lives for eternity. No religion can provide that — only a relationship!

  29. *If there is only one true God*
    But why should there be only one? There could be many, a great number of humans have in history and today many do believe there are lots of Gods. And this faith in God or Gods and Goddesses is believe without evidence.
    More and more people start to think rationally, evaluate the myths and the (non) evidence for invisible all powerful beings and come to the conclusion that there are no gods at all.

    If you study the state of countries today you will find that the more religious, and the less secular, the more humanitarian abuse, the less educated, the less (if at all) inventions and discoveries, the more wars, religious murder, the more misogyny and abuse of women and children, and the less happy the people living in those countries are.

    You will have to deal with the fact that what history teaches us is that religion is not good, not moral, and causes stagnation of human development.

  30. Is Allah God? Are the respective Gods one and the same?

    If muslim Allah is equivalent to christian God, then by intuitive logic, it must also be equivalent to the following gods:

    Yahweh & Jehovah & Bagwan & Buddah & Guru Nanak & Jesus & Mohammed & Moses & Joseph Smith & Flying Spaghetti Monster & Great Spirit & Al-At & Al-Uzza & Al-Manat????

    As the Law of Non-Contradiction teaches, all these “gods” must then be rolled into One & Only One SUPREME ARCHITECT OF THE UNIVERSE aka SKYDADDY!

    Absolutum Obsoletum :)-

  31. Aafke-Art,
    If there is an infinite, omnipotent, omniscient God, then logically there can only be one. Man in his limited understanding creates many gods, with himself as the final god, and therefore no god at all. It is better to stick with the real God, who has revealed Himself to us and died for us so that we can know Him and worship Him as the true God. Otherwise, men believe in anything and nothing.

    If you are really interested in this topic and you want to look at some evidence rather than just words (without evidence), please listen to my lecture on the Origin of Religion found here:
    http://vimeo.com/22827369

  32. I think one of the biggest areas of challenge and confusion is that Christians believe Jesus is the son of God or even God himself and Muslims only recognize Jesus as a Prophet. Therefore it creates confusion on whether Muslims and Christians at least worship the same God.

    Christians believe that one must accept Jesus as their Savior in order to enter heaven whereas Muslims do not. Many Christians believe that anyone who has not accepted Jesus as their Savior will not gain entry to heaven regardless of how pious.

    Dr. Janosik: What do you say/think, please?

  33. American Bedu (Carol),
    This is an excellent question!
    I think the best way to approach an answer is for us to first realize that if the Bible is correct in its assessment of man, then we are all sinners (i.e., we have all rejected the one true God) and deserve separation from God for eternity. This is why we cannot accuse God of being unfair, for if he were fair then we would get what we deserve — eternal separation. It also short circuits the arguments of those who say that God is unjust for sending people to hell if they have never heard of Christ, for God does not send people to hell for not believing in Christ, but rather people are eternally separated from God because they are sinners (and they have chosen rebellion instead of salvation).
    This is why it is so important to see the centrality of Christ in this whole dilemma. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ came in order to restore us to a proper relationship with God. He is the only one who could do that because our rebellion put us in a situation that only God could pay for our sins against Himself. This would be impossible for God to accomplish unless He also became man and took on our sins (our rebellion against Him) and died for those sins. Thus, the only one who could accomplish this is the God/man Jesus Christ, God the Son, the Second person of the Trinity. No man-made god could reconcile us to God or take on our sins. That is why I believe that Jesus Christ is the only one who can save us from eternal separation from God.

  34. Thank you for your response, Dr. Janosik. But what does your answer mean then in regards to Muslims? I’m sure I am not alone when I say that I know many pious, pure and beautiful Muslims (my late husband among them) and could not fathom them (and him) anywhere but heaven (Jannah).

  35. I understand. This is the hardest part about answering your question. As a Christian I am bound to the revelation given to me in the Bible. It is sufficient for salvation; but we also need to remember that God exists on many dimensions above our three-dimensional world and our limited understanding (“My ways are not your ways, says the LORD”). I also know that God promises to reveal Himself to any who desire to know Him. He often begins this process through nature and the world around us (see Romans 1 in the Bible) and then leads us to specific revelation about Himself. I have heard of many Muslims who have come to Christ through dreams and visions of Christ coming to them and revealing himself to them. Perhaps Christ came to your husband in this way before he died. I do know that Christ also said that he came to save the ones he was sent to save and that he would not lose any of them (John 18:9).

  36. Dr. Janosik:

    Your argument is both flawed and circular.

    Next humanism does not mean the worship of mankind as God.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/humanism

    Atheism is not a de-evolution of belief it is a belief system steep in reality.

    Quite frankly, your entire presentation is dripping with Christianity as the path and the one religion but others have their God points that are universal so lets all make one religion (mostly based on Christianity) and sing Kumbaya.

    The only problem is religion is steep with human atrociites, discrimination, inequity, human stagnation, and demands to adhere or the faithful will kill you.

    You know the whole borg analogy “Resistance is futile.” Of course minus the technology as typically strong adherance to the religious doctrines sends mankind back to the day of barbarians or times of the 1st or 6th century.

  37. Thank you, Dr. Janosik.

  38. Abe, what does the Law of non-contradiction have to say about the uncertainty principle and Schrödinger’s cat? ;)

    As for Dr. Janosik, the argument made is precisely the same argument made by Jews in defense of their faith, Muslims in defense of their faith, Sikhs in defense of their faith and the list goes on for as many faiths currently in existence in the world. Each believes that they are following the one true faith and back it with their own religious texts.
    So, essentially, you are saying YOU are right about your faith being the one true faith and all others are wrong. Which is what the others faiths are saying. All using their own religious texts to back their argument.

    bigstick, atheism isn’t QUITE a belief system steeped in reality, it’s a belief system steeped in not believing in something without evidence.
    As an example, I DO believe that the Higgs boson has been detected and the results of current experiments will define its energy level. I do NOT believe that the dark matter effects that are observed are vast clouds of Higgs bosons just hanging around, but that something else has yet to be conceived that will explain the observations intimating the existence of dark matter, perhaps some entire new law of physics. In the current physics community, that is black heresy! But, in science, empirical data matters, not wild guesses or kludges.
    Of course, there was that heretic Dr. Barry Marshall. He had the temerity to claim that some weird new bacteria caused stomach ulcers, not stress and diet. Much skepticism met his claim, indeed, some even devolved to the point of insulting his competence. He ended up drinking a beaker of cultured H. pylori and acquired a case of gastroenteritis that required treatment with antibiotics, proving his claim to the medical community. Today, ulcers are KNOWN to be caused by H. pylori as a scientific fact.
    To the atheist and scientist, proof trumps dogma, USUALLY, but dogma exists in science and some scientists DO have religious beliefs.
    Of course, every atheist I’ve ever encountered have scientific beliefs, all evidence based.
    Now, the religious would say God caused the big bang. What does the atheist say caused the big bang?

  39. Rosemary, i wasn’t trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. You see, the reason why i pointed NN on tht particular statement was bcoz it wasn’t the first time she belittles someones mental health, she used tht cheap shot with other commenters too. I do hppn to notice this cheap tactic to be used rather freely by a few others when the religious or those who believe in a Creator disagrees with their ideology. Pertaining to this topic,as a Muslim who believes Islam to be the truth, I believe in only One True God, Allah and there is no other God but Allah. Albeit on my belief, i also believe it

  40. Albeit on me belief,i also believe it is not my business for anyone to disbelieve as long as he or she doesn’t insist on persistently badgering me on what i find to be truthful. Most of all, i am intolerable towards anyone who uses words in order to evoke contemptuous outcome.

  41. Mrs. B:

    Yes. We know all about your hostility to freedom of thought and expression. :D

    You make this so much fun. :)

    @Wzrd:

    You mean quantum indeterminacy or the observer’s paradox? In other words the observation or measurement itself affects an outcome, so that the outcome as such does not exist unless the measurement is made. (That is, there is no single outcome unless it is observed.)

    Or

    The fact that we know that superposition occurs because there are observable effects of interference whereby a single particle is in multiple locations at the same time.

    So

    This is creating issues for you on the law of contradiction?

    Why?
    :D

  42. Oops, should have been:

    Laws of non-contradiction?

  43. Gwen… Please give me a verse from the Quran that says to “love each other”. Must have missed it, or are you talking just Muslims? Like the idea of
    ‘fast women’ all night.

    .Mrs, Bawazir, Remember, you are from Malaysia. You deal with things like this legally in your country and Muslims have made it clear that Allah is not the god of Christians (which makes sense since Allah doesn’t have a son). Now if the jews want to claim Allah, they can have him.

    Radhaa, good for you and hubby!

    Carol, you are such a sweetie. Move over Mother Teresa.

    The arguments pro and con are pretty much like smoke, at least in this life. Personally I could care less about Allah if it weren’t that so many Muslims think that Allah wants me to die or be a second class citizen, or believe that I should not have a right to an opinion or my understanding of facts, particularly about their dear prophet.

    Perhaps a better subject would be how Mohammad came to be a co-god with Allah, at least in terms of reverence and obedience given to him by Muslims, transcending that of Allah. Note that, in the Quran, Islam’s prophet assumes to qualities identified with the deity. Note also that when Allah and Mohammad give contradictory commands, Muslims will always follow their dear prophet. Makes one feel kind of sorry for Allah.

  44. Freedom of thought,bstick? Of course once i played along your childish game, you immediately branded me an atheist hater,so i don’t see so much of this freedom of thought from you.or is freedom of thought only applicable for atheists?

  45. Believing in Jesus as Savior does not hinge on declaring him God.

    The Quran calls him the Word, the Spirit, the Mercy, the Truth and Prophet of God, Sinless and our Messiah (which means savior). I believe if a Muslim looks at the Quaranic version of Christ, rather than what all their teachers and family say about Jesus ( he did not die, he’s not God, he’s just a prophet, so stop asking about him!), they will see he is truly the Wajee7t Allah, in both this life and the life to come!

    I do think seeing the uniqueness of Christ leads to discovering the divinity of Christ, but this is a journey.

    So Dr. J, just b/c this woman’s husband may have not declared Jesus as God, he may have been in love with Christ as his savior and Light (both Qur’anic terms) and that is good news.

    I’m not convinced the thief on the cross or even the early believers called Jesus God.but even of they did, is that what saves people?

  46. bigstick, the notion of being and not being seems to be a direct contradiction of non-contradiction in the extreme. Either the bell curve is obeyed or not.
    OK, full disclosure, it’s a fallacious argument, as I DO know the endpoints. But, even THOSE could be argued by the religious types.
    NEVER leave someone “wiggle room” if you can avoid it!
    It only makes a discussion far, far, far richer!

  47. Even “without meds”. BTW, I take Lotrel, Ibuprofen 600 mg, twice a day (actually, the order is QID, but it’s a bad day when I take two), Omeprazole OTC and the obscene ibuprofen, 600 mg, QID, though typically taken OPD. On stormy days, either BID or QID. ( on the latter, I seriously consider eating a bullet, quite literally).
    My life drive is so extreme, that it’s obvious that I’m still here. Indeed, it was a requirement for such a drive in my former MOS.
    Yes, I’m responding OT, but YOU started it in a different post. I’m a dick and am vindictive. ;)
    OK, I’m a dick. I rather like being a dick.
    You’ve proved both inferior and superior in arguments. The dickness brought both out.
    In short, you CAN do better and have done better.
    I’ve had some bad moments, true, but your insinuation of “off meds” only proves you non-intellectual and merely annoying, you can do better!
    I’ve posted on many sites over the years, at times, only to royally piss people off enough to actually THINK.
    Attack my logic, no problem, I’ll respond or even reconsider.
    Claim that I’m off of some mythical medication, you are below consideration for discussion.
    Call me drunk, high or an idiot, I’ll disprove it or discuss my failings.
    We agree on quite a few points on faith, but mutually disagree on a few sparse points that we respect.
    But denigration is obscene in the extreme. It’s like calling Obama a nigger to me. That is simply a call to the lowest level of existence, that of a call to non-discussion level things, which I really want to avoid and really dislike.
    We can have regenerative discussion or degenerative discussion. The former is what we have so far, largely explored. The latter is one of violence, which we’ve both, so far, have rejected.
    Should we go further into extremist things?
    Or shall we be civilized?

    Or more simply my chemical record at present:
    amlodipine-benazprel, ibuprofen (TID, but typically OPD), omeprazole (20 mg, OPD) ASA 81 mg, when I remember to put the frigging things into my pill box. So, do we REALLY want to discuss “off my meds”?
    Or are you considering spiritual things as medication required things, thereby going for Big Brother of 1984 fame?
    Or of greater import, denouncement is the FAILED cause, or Joe was right int he great red scare and Zero Mostel was EVIL!

  48. @ bigstick1, on May 15, 2012 at 7:52 am said: Mrs. B – Yes. We know all about your hostility to freedom of thought and expression.

    MrB, islamic manifesto (based upon koran/hadith) does severely limit the freedom of speech/expression under the guise of “for the good of the society”. Here’s an excerpt from the islamic manifesto:

    So, while it is a great injustice to deny people of their basic right to freedom of speech, it is justifiable to choose to curtail the rights of some for the good of society, and to avoid the case of possibly bringing about a breakdown of societal cohesion and a disruption of law and order and peace.

    You can read the entire manifesto here:

    http://americanbedu.com/2012/04/17/saudi-arabia-punishment-in-the-grave/#comment-85645

    This manifesto has been imposed with religious fervor, during the last 14 centuries and present, by mohammed saw and later muslim rulers and kings/sultans saws, to deny liberties and freedoms to their obedient populace. Mohammed, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Sodom Hussein and many many many other tyrants (pbuh all) used exactly the same argument/gimmick of “for the good of the society”.

    Just in case someone accuses me of “debasing” islam, let me point out that these are but historical facts :)-

  49. Wzrd1, on May 15, 2012 at 10:51 am said: ” …. BTW, I take Lotrel, Ibuprofen 600 mg, twice a day (actually, the order is QID, but it’s a bad day when I take two), Omeprazole OTC and the obscene ibuprofen, 600 mg, QID, though typically taken OPD. On stormy days, either BID or QID. ….. amlodipine-benazprel, ibuprofen (TID, but typically OPD), omeprazole (20 mg, OPD) ASA 81 mg, when I remember to put the frigging things into my pill box …. I’m a dick and am vindictive. OK, I’m a dick. I rather like being a dick …”.

    Oh come on now! Seriously, do we all need to truly really know what medications you take, dosage, times, etc. Or you being a “dick” or your “dickness”. Or your long rants about your family and kids and grandkids and who and where you killed enemy combatants et al and how many.

    You are better than that, Wzrd1 … NOT!!!!

  50. @wzrd – on a lighter note, if you were to come into our ER with this list you’d be identified as – what we call a seeker :-)
    last bed around the corner and phsych consult called down , quick transfer and viola free bed !!!! :-)

  51. Abe,its hardly a manifesto. You don’t understand,im all for freedom etc but i shall never tolerate insults nor statements of a hostile nature.and FYI,my intolerance isn’t limited only to people targeting Islam,but i highly despise any other religion or life choices being ridicule.i do not support freedom at the expenses of one’s choice of belief. Maybe for you n many extremists here find it hard to grasp the term toleratable but thankfully,the world is still majority-ly(is tht s word,wht the heck) occupied by non hateful extremists.

    Rosemary,what’s your beef with Wzrd n his life anecdotes?he wasn’t harming anyone.

    U see abe,i do defend not just Islam, i defend freedom of life choices,words n thoughts n actions k all just so long as you don’t step on my toes.heck i ll defend u if needed but you seem capable in giving responses just to spite.

  52. Wzrd, trust me….you don’t want to take all of MY meds! (smile)

  53. Honest Abe posted:

    “If muslim Allah is equivalent to christian God, then by intuitive logic, it must also be equivalent to the following gods:

    Yahweh & Jehovah & Bagwan & Buddah …”

    The Buddha is not god. Buddhists do not believe that there is a god.

  54. Oooh, the drama! Leave for one day and see what happens.

    Mrs. B, out of the kindness of my heart, I will explain the mental health comment. If you read the comments in chronological order, you’ll see that in response to the post question, I gave my own answer that comparing two gods and figuring out whose story is better is silly since we’re dealing with stories, not facts.

    For that short and sweet comment, I’ve been immediately accused of starting a war against all faith, suggested to form my own island nation, promised a fight to the death to defend my beliefs (actually, you can skip that, my beliefs aren’t worth a single bullet), pushed to take *frigging* lessons from founding fathers, reminded of someone’s big nasty nature and called a fascist as a cherry on the cake.

    Now when someone misreads my comments and goes off on a barely understandable rant of that nature, the options are to blame poor reading skills, poor comprehension skills or just good old mental defects. I chose #3, and I’m glad the author of that comment has conveniently provided further proof with his post at 10.51 am. As Dr. House used to say, “psych ward’s upstairs.”

    Now for the original post question, I’m glad Dr. Janosik chose to post here, which made it very obvious which way his preference lie; he’s a Christian who believes in his dogma, which is perfectly fine, but it makes it very obvious that we are dealing, again, with stories, not facts. His wish that Carol’s husband saw Christ before he died was very telling.

    I was once asked in a thrift store in West Virginia whether I accepted Jesus as my own personal savior. I told them he made the shortlist but the selection committee is still in session.

  55. Gwendolyn, on May 14, 2012 at 3:32 am said: People who get upset and angry over this issue are ignoring the prime directive given to us by Allah SWT, and that is to love Allah SWT and love each other.

    Hi Gwen,

    Since you are a member of so many “cults” at the same time and at the same place, perhaps you got confused about WHICH of the allahs swt gave directive “to love Allah SWT and love each other”. Not to worry. As a “human”, I can understand your predicament and confusion.

    You see, Gwen, koran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called ‘hypocrites’ and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

    Here are but a few gems (from the koran re-written by hilaly/khan) where allah swt gives detailed outlines on “how to love allah swt” and “how to love each other”:

    Koran (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]… but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

    Koran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”

    Koran (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.

    Koran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”

    Koran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

    Koran (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

  56. Mrs. B

    Please provide the time, date and blog in which I called you an atheist hater immediately after engaging in our writing events. I do believe I stated after a long drawn out battle and you calling me a militant atheist that you leaned toward that dispostion but that was only after you made that statement and this is another repeat of the same statement.

    Next, no one is stepping on your toes they are exchanging ideas and having challenging debates or re-evaluation points. Again, I will state that freedom is me being able to state things that you don’t like to hear and ditto for you to me. That is freedom.

    Personnally I still wondering if you ever researched the book called, “Reliance of the Traveller,” as you and other muslim thought this was something I just pulled off the internet website. In fact, I have asked if you believe Karen Armstrong wrote it as that was what seemed to be implied from one of your previous blogs.

    I have yet to hear an actual answer. So have you conducting any research on this book?

    Wzrd:

    Dude, take a chill pill and don’t drink to much. You are in need of an ear, preferrably not mine. However, go find someone to talk to regarding your situation and maybe a shoulder.

    Ordinarily, I would pounce on you like a fresh kill but there is no sport in it when you are having some personnal problems such as you described in another post. So take care and I will be waiting for you once you have worked through some issues.

    Then I will continue to point out your need for additional medication and therapy as a result of long rambling incoherant rants. :)

    Get some rest.

    Abe:

    Don’t you know that you just taken that all out of context now. I mean after all that is what a muslim will tell you in English but we know what he will say in Arabic. It also okay to do so according to the Quran. Were do you think politicians learn their craft of furthering their agenda – religion. :)

  57. bigstick1, on May 15, 2012 at 11:22 pm said:Were do you think politicians learn their craft of furthering their agenda – religion.

    MrB, Loved it and it is so true :)-

  58. @Mrs. B:

    Toleratable?

  59. What’s ”toleratable”?

  60. The problem with Jesus being the son of God is that he wasn’t, and that bit of doctrine was introduced hundreds of years after he died after a vote . A small majority voted to have Jesus as the ”son of God” from then on.
    And now all Christians believe Jesus is the son of God, before that became doctrine many Christians did not believe so. And if the vote had gone the other way none of the Christians today would believe jesus is the son of God.
    This is literally religion in the making. Religion and who’s god and who isn’t is decided by the ruling clergy.

    The same goes for Islam, actually islam shows even clearer how mohammed changed his mind and his politics as he got more power.
    Not to mention that although all men were allowed only 4 wives he of course was allowed many more. (besides his slaves)

    Why is it not clear to everybody that these are made up stories?

    I’ve said it before, all religious people can see quite clear why all other different religions are wrong, except the one they are in, that is the one where they wear the blinders and don’t see how silly it really is.

    The real difference between A-theists and religionists is that A-theists do not wear blinders. Most A-theists become A-theists because they have really, actually read the magic books, and studied religions. The more you learn about any religion, and where it came from, and who constructed it, the more chance you will become an A-theist.

  61. Aafke-Art,
    It is unfortunate that you believe that the council of Nicea in 325 AD was the origin of the doctrine of the deity of Christ. I guess Dan Brown’s influence is more prevalent than we think! Actually, if you read the history of the first three centuries of Christianity, and especially through the primary sources of the early Church Fathers, you would understand clearly that the deity of Christ was never in doubt from the time that he walked the earth through our present time. Part of my doctoral dissertation was tracing the development of the understanding of the Trinity from the first century AD through the eighth century. One thing I came to realize is that I should never say anything concerning historical matters unless I have actually read the history from the people who lived during that time. When you do that you will better understand why the Dan Browns of this world may have their 15 seconds, but then they will fade away into obscurity. On the other hand, one of the reasons that one-third of the world’s population still believes that Jesus Christ is God the Son is because the evidence is overwhelming, especially when you consider something like the resurrection of Jesus. Even scholars who are not Christian will attest to these five facts from history: 1) Jesus died by crucifixion, 2) Jesus’ disciples believed that he rose and appeared to them, 3) The church persecutor Paul was suddenly changed, 4) the skeptic James, brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed, and 5) the tomb was empty. Gary Habermas, one of the world’s experts in this area, states that these “minimal facts” “are so strongly attested historically that even the majority of nonbelieving scholars accept them as facts.” (The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, 75). So, when you want to speak historically, go back to the earliest sources and make sure that you deal with the facts. (15 seconds really isn’t that much time).

  62. Tolerable,sorry about the spelling mistake,but i hv one eye on my baby whose startgi to pick up paper n eat it rather than eating her Cerelac. Oh bstick when will u admit tje truth?how many times hv u accused me of being an advocate of oppression,slavery,crimes simply bcoz im a Muslim?!how many times hv u called me the gatekeeper of all tht is evil towards women?!reflect on yourself before yelling Freedom. Ah the age old trick,misquoting Quran. I wonder why Islam critics ALWAYS fail to include verse 9.6?!perhaps it would foil their miserable attempt to slander Islam?!abe read http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/jihad/kill_the_infidels.asp

  63. Try reading accordingly http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=282392. Read from this site on that special surah you chose Abe(bstick tooo).focus on the topic of the surah. I’ll gladly explain to you,step by step, should you not comprehend the surah.

  64. @MB

    Thx for the links. Appreciate it very much. I will study them and then come back to you with questions.

    Peace,

    Abe

  65. Mrs. B:

    You are diverting from the question yet again which is typical for you. You also have left a question unanswered again (Reliance of the Traveller). In addition, the topics that you chose to bring up were topics that you choice to ignore when you were asked about them leaving one to draw a conclusion that you supported stated activities as generally silence is acceptance.

    I will address the other topic when you answer the questions.

  66. Mrs. B:

    Read between the lines as that sentenced sucked. I understand the kids dilemma. They are great fun however, they hamper editing.

  67. Mrs B:

    Here are some different ways to look at it:

    http://prophetofdoom.net/POD_Quran_Surah_009_Repentance.Islam

    http://www.quranandwar.com/

    http://www.investigateislam.com/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=133&Itemid=65

    http://muslim-responses.com/Jihad_Verses/Jihad_Verses_

    However the Quran has the same problem as the Bible as there is no original text and what you do have has been purposely distorted by what has been left out, inserted, rewritten or destroyed both for the same purpose of political ambition.

    Next:

    Maybe Dr. Janosik can actually touch on the whole issue of the letters alleged to have been written by Paul and at least 5 of them being deemed forgeries. Also how is it that administrative letters to churches on functions and day to day operations become canonicalized as a divine instruct?

    Also, Dr. Janosik could you list who you consider as the Christian fathers of early antiquity.

  68. Bstick,forgv me but i don’t yv time to scroll through all the comments but i believe you called me atheists hater on the punishment ik the grave topic,not absolutely sure. I called u a militant bcoz u keep badgering me to rethink my faith,u keep insinuating tht i advocate wrongdoings,n u keep tellint me tht i don’t know my own religion. Mr bstick,i do believe i know how to think for myself. As for justifying you branding me as gatekeeper of terror just bcoz of my silence,thts preposterous.why is it Muslims are expected to shout out our abhorrent on crimes n corruptions?!of coz i loath corruptions.n your oast few links are another cheap attempt to lie.tye authors were jumping from verses to verses,to make yis points valid.

  69. Mrs. B:

    Go back and find the comment as it does not exist. Then why do you engage in this debate if you are not seeking. I seek history, understanding, and growth. However, that does not mean I will become religious out of it but it does mean I learn more history and it opens avenues to additional scholars, archeology, as well as historical and scientific endeavors.

    Next, you opened the door to the questions of wrongdoings but never closed it until the end of our last conversation on a previous blog under punishment. Also you keep avoiding the book issue which is a noted fiqh in your religion, why is that?

    Then ask yourself this. If you were born in a different part of the world and taught differently would your faith be any less valid than a muslims. This is part of the problem with religion and the new additions as there is no original text whereby to validate or not validate, where by the words have ambiqious meanings, whereby there a history of missing verses, eaten verse, devil verses, added verses, non the same language oops means something different verses, I forgot verses so I will insert something better or the same (forgetful God), etc. The Talmud, The Bible, The Quran, all have the same problem. Next there is always a damn one upping each other as you have version 1.0 (Judaism) 1.1 (Christians) 1.2 (Muslims) 1.3 (Mormons) 1.4 (Scientology) 1.5 (Pastafarians) and I AM sure in 20 year we will have another newer better slicker manipulative version of the HOLY THIN AIR.

  70. So according to u,we should all ditch our religion and turn to atheism. Why didn’t i think of that before? After all, bstick says so. Forget years and years of learning the Quran, 4years of studying in an Islamic University, forget the strong calling inside me that i truly believe is the calling by my One True God! In order to be intelligent and history adequate,and since bstick says so, we should really turn to atheism.

  71. Mrs. B:

    Never said you had to that, that is your interpretation. However, it doesn’t mean that I will not challenge you on your belief of a text that has caused so much tragedy and to challenge you on the history of that text particular when those teaching you have a vested interest themselves to ensure control of the masses and a dogma of fundamentalism which is currently spreading and it will have a detrimental effect on many. Then see other reasons listed above, plus add the hadith, sira, and fiqh.

    By the way I went to a Christian University for my undergraduate degree. I got past it. Next why should you give up your education or the study of the Quran? Does it sound like i don’t study the Quran, Bible, Talmud or the historical aspect? Seriously. Of course I find far earlier history to be of great interest as well as it shows the dynamics that lead to the belief system such as the Sumerians’, Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Mesopotamia , etc.

    In addition, just because you are here today in the thought process doesn’t mean you won’t end up some place else later in life on the belief system. That is the one thing about a belief system as you can evolve past it just like kids realizing the tooth fairy no longer exists.

    Better yet here is a site that opens up so much on amazing civilizations even older than the one’s I have mentioned. Who knows where you will be in 5 to 10 years in your belief structure as people and beliefs change. This statement is especially true when you see the development of the civilizations as well as what they believed. They each had fascinating beliefs, customs, and traditions to which if they were alive today I would challenge them on it but all the time I would be learning from them.

    http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/Ancient.Civ_Technol/Ancient.Civ.index.html
    :)

    Believe me Mrs. B. I have learned from our conversations. Probably not what you had hoped I would have learned but I have still benefited from the dialogue.

  72. @American Bedu(Carol0 of 15 May
    I have read almost all above. I believe in Quran and I qoute Quran:
    17:110,111 Please read it yourself.It says:( ” O Mohammad tell the mankind) whether you call Him ALLAH or you call HIM RAHMAN(the beneficient), it is one and the same because all His names are excellent and beautiful.
    And also say: Praise be to Allah Who has neither begotten a son nor has He a partner in His Sovereignty, nor has He any need to protect Him from any sort of infamy.. Therefore , extol Him in the most Glorious ways.

  73. bstick,i ll gv my answer finally to your everlasting question. Yes,i hv read the reliance of the trAveller,numerous times.concerning tye Karen Armstrong book,i mistakenly was refering to the 4000 years history of religion or something,tht i hvnt read. Ok,now my only question to you,since you stated you will continue to challenge me ok my belief,my question is,what is the point you wish to reach? Thank you.

  74. Radhaa, I related my medicine list in response to bigstick’s comment of “off of my meds”. As for seeker behavior, if someone is a seeker because he recites his medication list, which is EXPECTED in an ED and the list is an anti-hypertensive, NSAID and proton pump inhibitor, well, you’ve have most people over 50 being seekers.
    Now, if I mentioned analgesics in the list or suggested the same, THAT would be a warning signal for seeking behavior.
    Sorry for the delay in response, lousy weather rather inclined me to rest for most of the day and the last thing I wanted to do was sit…

    Carol, I’ll defer from your medications, but I’ll say, I truly wish YOU didn’t have to take them either (as in you not having a need for them)! I normally am not one to make wishes, but for you, I do have one wish: full and uneventful recovery.

  75. ”A lot of Americans do believe that their way of live, religion and capitalism, is the righteous one. Sounds to me that they are just as religious fanatics as those suicide bombers. The only difference is that they are not the ones being pushed into despair.”(1)

    (1) The above comment taken from here:
    Why was the US military teaching ‘total war’ on Islam?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18030105

  76. Snowman, there are a few things to consider in your question.
    First, in the US military, the term total war is a very, very special term. It LITERALLY means devoting THE ENTIRE ECONOMY to a war, even at greater levels than WWII was. The US has NEVER had a total war economy, as it would significantly harm the nation, it is a last ditch effort for the survival of the nation and it’s only been planned, never implemented.
    Second, that article is about ONE COURSE, given by one officer who was relieved for cause over this, it’s in the citation you provided. Said officer also called for nuclear bombardment of Islamic sites and cities, to include Mecca. Interestingly enough, NO military officer gets to make that call, ONLY the President of the United States of America may give the order for the use of nuclear weapons, when and where to deploy them. Said order has only been issued twice, at the end of WWII.
    Third, I’m recently retired from the US Army. For a nation “that is at war with Islam”, we have a HELL of a lot of Muslim officers and enlisted!
    Lastly, if the US military is at “total” war, which they lack the authority to declare, as only congress may declare war and at what national level of effort is required to support it, can you explain why the US military have Muslim chaplains and support mosques for Muslim troops? In theater (aka the war zone), we even supported separate mosques for the foreign nationals working on the bases.

    I’ve noticed a trend long ago in people, that of the trend to fixate on ONE individual or small group (say, around 6-8 at largest) and say that ALL are like that.
    If so, ALL Germans are Adolf Hitler. ALL Iraqis are Saddam Hussein. ALL Japanese are Tojo. One can continue the list for each stinker each nation has presented to the world (OK, Tojo wasn’t much of a stinker, just bad time for him to be in command)!
    The singular difference between the US and many other nations is, WE air our dirty laundry for all to see us clean it up. Something that ends up ignored (such as when people claim the US Army willfully kills men, women and children and name people IN PRISON for doing that or are pending trial for those very crimes).
    Because, NO people is reflected by its criminals activities, it’s reflected by the vastly larger populace and their activities. Nations can have bad reflections by ACTIONS of their governments, but again, one also cannot condemn a populace for the action of its leadership unless one is prepared to also condemn their own when THEIR leaders screw up or commit an atrocity.

    As for those being pushed into despair, that depends on two things:
    1: A person PERMITS themselves to despair, rather than keep trying.
    2: People in “economic despair” are common all over the planet, even in the “wonderful” US.

  77. Mrs. B:

    You sought me out. Not the other way around. You didn’t like my stance and still don’t but you still engage. Short answer, to learn, share and expand upon. I will challenge you because you seek to challenge me.

    You really should read Karen Armstrong’s book as it is very interesting.

    Dr. Janosik,

    Curious on whether you have given up on the blog as it kind of goes off topic but I am still interested in learning your position of my previous question.

  78. My dissatisfaction with you is tht you approach each n every subject with the same vehement manner and your discussions are oftenly repetitive of I Hate Religion and There Is No God.you rant the same toture,maiming,killing,raping,oppression,enslavement in every chance,on any topic regardless of the fact tht we keep informing you those injustice are done by extremists n not Islam or.any other religion. another problem i have with u is tht YOU keep repeating tht I do not know my own religion simply because i disagree with your stance.how is that I m te one who sought you?! I read your discussions,gv feedbck n either you tell me I am ignorant of my religion or you call me as gatekeeper of so and so.how does tht fit in your claim to learn and share?you ask questions but not to learn,you ask questions as a means to bring forth YOUR own opinion(not tht its wrong to hv opinions but accepting others in what they believe is also part of growth). I can open up many negatives about atheism too,but up till now,I’ve avoided tht path,although i did mention some great crimes by extreme Atheists such as Stalin and Pol Pot and State Atheism.my point is,or more presice,my question is,are you by any chance trying to ‘convert’ the religious to accept atheism?

  79. Really, you initially went off on me because I called the dresswear black bat sacks. You went ballastic for that comment alone then I change it to black awrah sacks still you went nuts. You are the one who wants to engage in this. So is it you who wants to convert me? We have covered the fallacy of the atheist agrument on the Punishment topic and I see no reason to reopen a topic that has been settled regarding the fallacy of your statement.

  80. @wzrd1 – I was just teasing you, since you gave a list of medications…

  81. But you went ballistic as well when someone condemn the western dressing as equivalent to meat.to the point of making yourself an embarrassment on the blog by your haughty mockery of people’s decision to raise their kids. Fallacy? Why is it a fallacy?care for me to explain?

  82. You dwelled on tht meat dog metaphor n started to go on a crazy tirade.you refused to acknowledge the blogger’s other articles on the rights for women to dress covered or uncovered,on how also she condemns the religious police of blaming women ok sexual crimes.no,you dwell on her metaphor abot PERVERT men as dogs who view women as meat .n with tht,you went all oh look at my life in the west is way better than yours.n u still doing it here!!

  83. Im off to bed now but believe me,i am ready to share with you more information on what we left off concerning militant atheism.goodnight.

  84. Mrs. B:

    I did not do a tirade. I simply stated that it was a world she chose for herself and her daughter to which she has accepted to include being perceived as meat to be mauled by the dogs in that country and her statement indicates that it was an accepted aspect. As far as I am concerned once a woman has been equated with nothing but meat then she is either covered or uncovered meat nothing more. As a woman has no more value than a easy to a slight less easy target who will be held responsible for a male dog’s actions because she LIVES and HAD the audacity to venture out of prison (oh, home) to do something.

    You apparently are okay with the view of women. I suppose you also support the Imam in Australia who made the statement after a group of Muslim men attacked and raped some teenage girls (Aussie). The next implied the girls were to blame due to their lack of Muslim/modest attire.

    What you fail to understand is that this demand of modesty is a form of harassment and control. To which you apparently are okay with since you keep coming back to uphold the statement.

  85. Actually, bigstick, the Imam that likened uncovered women to meat didn’t mention dogs, but cats. HE was the Imam in Australia that you mention. I’ve heard no authority in Saudi make the same claims.
    His comments were denounced by Egyptian Islamic scholars at the time as well.
    By your candle, ALL Baptist ministers burn Qurans. All Protestant ministers are senior KKK members and all Roman Catholic priests molest altar boys.

  86. MrB,

    Wzrd1 is correct. The key word is CATS!

    It was Mufti Imam Taj El-Din Hilaly who made this comment concerning dress and rape. In October 2006, he delivered a ramadan sermon in arabic in which he made statements concerning female clothing which proved highly controversial. The key part of these was:

    “If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it … whose fault is it, the cats’ or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred.”

    Regardless of cats or dogs, the most important thing to take away from his remarks is that he is a male chauvinist pig. I remember an iranian ayaholla making a somewhat similar statement blaming female immodesty in dresses for causing earthquakes.

  87. Abe, don’t forget the “Baptist” idiot who blames earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes and war deaths on the US because “God hates fags”. And the hundreds who said much the same over women’s clothing here in the US.
    Religious idiots who expand their religion in ways to expand their power are not the fault of the religion any more than the constitution is at fault over second amendment rights (or any other rights).
    Frankly, had any of any of the above “religious leader” been given the opportunity to ascertain the quality of their dental plan by one of their followers, I’m fairly certain we’d have never heard another word along those lines again. :/

  88. Wzrd1/Abe:

    Yes I am aware that it was cat by him but by the party she is defending it was dogs. It was a similar type of statement. Mrs. B is defending this statement. It is whether it is a cat or a dog the premise is the same women are meat and men are dogs/alley(apparently) cats. As far as I am concerned it doesn’t bode well for men or women.

  89. Hehe no matter how old men gets,they still can be childish at times (keywore is CAT). Firstoy bstick,you really should stop talking on my behalf by giving assumptions like tht.where on earth did i DEFEND the meat metaphor?i never did.but i did say tht PERVERT are like dogs(surely Perverts don’t equate to all the men)and Perverts do view women as meat/targets/sex! And bstick,i don’t agree at all with tht Imam.Men must be held responsible on their own demeanor. And you shouldn’t let tye crazy summons of a few imams cloud your judgements on Islam(you do tht a lot with the torture,rape,slaves,maiming rant.) After all arch atheist Karl Marx was infamously known to state tht religions should be destroyed. State atheism destroyed hoyuses of worship and killed millions of religious.does that say something about you?

  90. And you did not simply stated she chose to raise her child there.you Mocked and condemned her for her choice.go baaci and read the statements,unlesw of coz you’ve already deleted them.everyone there pointed you out on your comments,non Muslims included.just as how you nagged at me for wantikg to raise my daughter n future granddaughters with my faith,did u forgt tht as well?

  91. Mrs. B:

    Really, you have gone out of your way to defend and rebring up the statement back into play repeatedly.

    I have never called for the death or destruction of a person or a church/synogague/mosque. However, numerous mulsim clerics to include the Saudi Grand Poohbah (pun intended) certainly has.

    Next, I pointed out the difference of societies, i n what I could do in a free country verses the country she chose, defends their customs/religon (discrimintaory) and then she gets aggravated by it customs/religion. Next, yes they were erased as the statements were between her and I and so stated that in the comment. Next, she and I have gotten past this but you keep bringing it back up.

  92. I brought it up bcoz u kept labelling me as gtekeeper of women being oppressed.

  93. Some of the biggest misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about Islam have to do with the word “Allah”. Somehow, many people have come to believe that Muslims worship a different God than Christians and Jews. This is totally false, since “Allah” is simply the Arabic name that “God” has informed us he is called – and there is only One God. Let there be no doubt – Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus – peace be upon them all. However, it is certainly true that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have different concepts of Almighty God. For example, Muslims – like Jews – reject the Christian beliefs of the Trinity and the Divine Incarnation. This, however, doesn’t mean that each of these three religions worships a different God – because, as we have already said, there is only One True God. Islam teaches, however, that other religions have, in one way or another, distorted and nullified a pure and proper belief in Almighty God by neglecting His true teachings and mixing them with man-made ideas.

    It is important to note that “Allah” is the same word that Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use for God. If you pick up an Arabic Bible, you will see the word “Allah” being used where “God” is used in English. “Allah” is the only word in the Arabic language equivalent to the English word “God” with a capital “G”. It should be noted, however, that in Arabic, “Allah” is a somewhat unique word grammatically, since it cannot be made plural or given gender (i.e. masculine or feminine), which goes hand-in-hand with the Islamic concept of God. The root word “god” in English, for instance, can be used in similiar forms, such as “gods”, “God” or “goddess”, all with different connotations and meanings. Because of this, and also because the Qur’an, which is the holy scripture of Muslims, was revealed in the Arabic language, some Muslims use the word “Allaah” for “God”, even when they are speaking other languages. In English, the only difference between “god”, meaning a false god, and “God”, meaning the One True God, is the capital “G”. In Arabic alphabet, since it does not have capital letters, the word for God (i.e. Allah) is formed by adding the equivalent to the English word “the” (Al-) to the Arabic word for “god/God” (ilah). So the Arabic word “Allah” literally it means “The God” – the “Al-” in Arabic basically serving the same function as the capital “G” in English. Due to the above mentioned facts, a more accurate translation of the word “Allaah” into English might be “The One -and-Only God” or “The One True God”.

    This brings us to a more important point: It should be clearly understood that what Islam is primarily concerned with is correcting mankind’s concept of Almighty God. What we are ultimately going to be held accountable at the end of our life is not whether we prefer the word “Allah” over the word “God”, but what our concept of God is. Language is only a side issue. A person can have an incorrect concept of God while using the word “Allah”, and likewise a person can have a correct concept of God while using the word “God”. This is because both of these words are equally capable of being misused and being improperly defined. As we’ve already mentioned, using the word “Allaah” no more insinuates belief in the Unity of God than the use of the word “God” insinuates belief in the Trinity – or any other theological opinion. Naturally, when God sends a revelation to mankind through a prophet, He is going to send it in a language that the people who receive it can understand and relate to.

    Almighty God makes this clear in the Qur’an, when He states:

    “Never did We send a Messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people in order to make (things) clear to them”. –

    From the Noble Qur’an, Chapter 14 – “Abraham”, Verse 4

    As Muslims, we think that it is unfortunate that we have to go into details on such seemingly minor issues, but so many falsehoods have been heaped upon our religion, that we feel that it is our duty to try to break down the barriers of falsehood. This isn’t always easy, since there is a lot of anti-Islamic literature in existence which tries to make Islam look like something strange and foreign to Westerners. There are some people out there, who are obviously not on the side of truth, that want to get people to believe that “Allah” is just some Arabian “god”, and that Islam is completely “other” – meaning that it has no common roots with the other Abrahamic religions (i.e. Christianity and Judaism). To say that Muslims worship a different “God” because they say “Allah” is just as illogical as saying that French people worship another God because they use the word “Dieu”, that Spanish-speaking people worship a different God because they say “Dios” or that the Hebrews worshipped a different God because they sometimes call Him “Yahweh”. Certainly, reasoning like this is quite ridiculous! It should also be mentioned, that claiming that any one language uses the only the correct word for God is tantamount to denying the universality of God’s message to mankind, which was to all nations, tribes and people through various prophets who spoke different languages.

    It is interesting to note that the Aramaic word “El”, which is the word for God in the language that Jesus spoke, is certainly more similar in sound to the word “Allaah” than the English word “God”! Also, the various Hebrew words for God are “El” and “Elah”, and its plural form is “Elohim”. It should also be noted that in translating the Bible into English, the Hebrew word “El” is translated variously as “God”, “god” and “angel”! This imprecise language allows different translators, based on their preconceived notions, to translate the word to fit their own views.

    Even more interesting is the fact that some Christian missionary organisations print English literature intended to teach Christians about Islam in which say such things as: “Allah is the god of the Muslims” and that “Muhammad came to get people to believe in the god Allah” – implying that “Allah” is some sort of false “god”. However, in their literature that they make in Arabic, hoping to lead Arabic speaking people “to Christ”, they use the word “Allah” for God. It seems that if they were on the side of truth, they would not have to resort to such inconsistencies.

    There are also missionary organisations that exceed this in ignorance by writing pamphlets that call on Muslims to give up their belief in “Allah”, and instead worship the “Lord” Jesus, “the Son of God”. Besides making it abundantly clear that they are outside the community of Pure Monotheism, the people who write such material don’t even realise that if they wrote such a pamphlet in Arabic, it would be self-contradictory. This is because in an Arabic Bible Jesus is the “Son of Allah”! If an Arabic-speaking person gave up the worship of “Allah”, they would have no God to worship, since “Alaah” is simply the Arabic name and title of the one true God and Creator!

    Before we conclude, however, we would like to ask our readers to ask themselves what they think the reasons are behind all of these lies? If Islam was just some false religion that didn’t make any sense, would so many people, from Western scholars to Christian missionaries, have to tell so many lies about it? The reason is that the Ultimate Truth of Islam stands on solid ground and its unshakeable belief in the Unity of God is above reproach. Due to this, Christians can’t criticise its doctrines directly, but instead make up things about Islam that aren’t true so that people lose the desire to learn more. If Muslims were able to present Islam in the proper way to people in the West, it surely might make many people reconsider and re-evaluate their own beliefs. It is quite likely that Christians, when they find out that there is a universal religion in the world that teaches people to worship and love God, while also practising Pure Monotheism, would at least feel that they should re-examine the basis for their own beliefs and doctrines.

  94. Sarrah Brown, you oversimplified the linguistic bit by a lot, but gave an excellent explanation. It fails in comparison in some modest details that aren’t REALLY important, other than to historians and other various academics though.
    The ROOT tongue was rather a lot like Aramaic. Very close indeed to ancient Hebrew and Arabic. To the point where the native speaker, should one have survived so many thousands of years into today, would get a good idea as to what was being said, rather akin to an Italian getting an idea what a Spaniard was saying, only missing 20-30% or so (not counting today’s technical terms).
    The CONCEPTS of the faith in quite a few areas are filtered by far, far, far, far too many with 21th century cultural filters, one that fails to comprehend HISTORY PAST, growth, shrinking, even farting or something. To THEM, what was past MUST be filtered by 21st century filters, so that ALL of the ancients are evil pedophiles, even IF they may well have been of equal age at some marriages and elders marrying other young women over politics.
    So, since those consider history evil by action, we should burn all history or something. Or at least damn those of ancient being by modern standards.
    By THAT standard, we should build a time machine and exterminate the very first humans, as they failed to obey OUR cultural laws.
    Let the paradox collapse the universe, as the universe means nothing to such closed minds, only THEIR views. Whether religious or anti-religious.

    Our faiths may differ, but if all RESPECT the other in their faith, there isn’t a problem. It’s those who seek no peace in greeting, only the demand that others follow THEIR beliefs.
    A shining example, the KSA is not, nor is the USA. But, Qatar seems to be managing a decent balance, if you know of others that are also finding that balance, feel free to let us all know, though Jordan wasn’t so horribly bad in reporting…
    Egypt is still fardled in government, hopefully a balanced government will issue from their Arab spring with mildly failed follow through.
    Tunisia… Well, they’ve STILL not recovered from the aftermath of the last Punic war, then, as recovering, Europe…
    Morocco is in disguise, but the people and food are WAY cool!
    Lebanon is still suffering from her neighbors misbehavior.
    Syria is surly due to not being Lebanese (ancient joke in some parts of the region, some further jokes about Syrian olives being so much smaller than any other in the region).
    Regardless, there is only ONE truism in the region: Drive too fast outside of the city or town, risk a camel going through the windshield and sitting inside of the chests of the front seat occupants of said vehicle, as the windshield doesn’t slow a camel down by very much.

  95. @Sara Brown

    “The reason is that the Ultimate Truth of Islam stands on solid ground and its unshakeable belief in the Unity of God is above reproach. Due to this, Christians can’t criticise its doctrines directly, but instead make up things about Islam that aren’t true so that people lose the desire to learn more. If Muslims were able to present Islam in the proper way to people in the West, it surely might make many people reconsider and re-evaluate their own beliefs. It is quite likely that Christians, when they find out that there is a universal religion in the world that teaches people to worship and love God, while also practising Pure Monotheism, would at least feel that they should re-examine the basis for their own beliefs and doctrines.”

    Every religion claims to have the “Ultimate Truth”, capital U, capital T. Islam is not unique in that sense, and its claim to monopoly over the truth follows the script of all existing religions.

    Sarah, I didn’t learn about Islam from Muslims so there is no need to “present it in a proper way.” Its written artifacts speak for itself. I saw it all and found them less than compelling. You should stop assuming that the reason people don’t follow Islam is that they don’t know about it. That’s like saying that if I only took one “good” look at you, I will surely judge you to be the most gorgeous girl in the world. Umm, what if I did look at you, and my opinion of your beauty didn’t change?

    Finally, all religions claim to be universal and teach people to worship and love God. Again, Islam offers nothing unique in that sense.

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