Saudi Arabia: Children Abandoned by a Saudi Father

 

The blog, Abandoned Children by their Saudi Father, recently published a consolidated post which identifies some of the children (with photos) who were abandoned by a Saudi father.  The respective mothers of these children would like the families to at least be aware that they have a Grandson, Granddaughter, cousin, nephew or niece in the United States.  The mothers value the importance of family and for their children to know of their heritage.

The children all come from Saudi men (boys?) with known and recognizable names within the Kingdom, such as Al-Harthy, Al-Asiri, Al-Rajhi and Qutub. 

I am writing this post to help facilitate the wishes of these mothers who want it to be known that they are raising these Saudi-fathered children in their respective countries on their own.

Most of these children are being raised as Muslims.  Each of the mothers are concerned about the medical history of the father’s family.  Each mother is now much more aware of Saudi culture and traditions than she was before entering into an intimate relationship with a Saudi.

Some of these mothers were asked by the Saudi father to abort their child.  Alhumdillallah they did not.   These children are innocent and were conceived during what was believed to be times of love.

As a mother and a grandmother myself, I think the families should be made aware that there is an innocent baby who is now part of their tribe.  At least let the families aware and then it is up to them whether there is an acknowledgement or a relationship with the child.  What has been done is done and now the focus should be on what is best for the child.

I urge others to help circulate this post so that the families in Saudi Arabia are aware that there are beautiful children deserving of Grandparents, Aunts, Uncles and cousins!    

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346 Responses

  1. Aw, they are so cute!

  2. Alhumduallah, thank you for exposing these men as the dogs they are.

  3. @susanne430
    You call them Dogs , it is your language. You could be polite.However such people are a drop in the ocean, Islam can not be blamed. They can be brought to justice under the Islamic Jurisprudence and Faqih.

  4. Sami, please reread my comment. I did not mention animals. Thank you.

  5. aww so sweet , who has the heart to abandon such cuties ..

  6. Sami, There is nothing in Orthodox Islamic jurisprudence that would help these children. You might manage to get some/all of the parents lashed/stoned but that’s about it. Nothing about supporting children out of wedlock.

    Personally, as a Muslim I disagree with how the law has been developed on this topic- but no one listens to me.

  7. My heart squeezed very hard when I read this…

    Their governmnet is very “conservative”: prohibiting to have a relationship/marry a Western woman, but has no policy on making those women pregnant….
    Wow…There is a real issue here!

    But the biggest thing that throws me off is not the governmnet, of course. It is that the so called “fathers” of these children are somehow able to leave these children just like that….and they will probably never see them again…

    But let’s be realistic, ladies. Single-mother/unintented pregnancy issues exist everywhere in the world. In Canada, for example, it’s almost like a normal thing these days. Teenage pregnancy is booming, and lots of those “fathers” are Canadian males. Lots of them would abandon their girlfriends with their children. Now, can we say all Canadian males are irresponsible? And if you look at how many Canadian males did that VERSUS how many Saudi males did that – I bet the # of Canadian males is 1000 times the Saudi one.

    It is not about nationality. It’s about personality. In every nation there are jerks, as well as descent men.

    There are a lot of things going on in this world – things that make our hair stand perpendicular to our scalp…. We cannot find answers…And we often think: why does God allow this?

    Dear Mothers of the children who were abandoned by Saudis. God gave you all this to make you super strong! To show others that with God’s help, we people can be strong, loving, caring, and responsibly doing our things (in this case: raising these children). I wish you many more blessing from God, but remember: you’ve already got the biggest blessing of your life: your son(s) and daughter(s) :) They are very beautiful children, masha’Allah :)

  8. The key purpose of this post is not to bash anyone but try and spread the word so that these families in Saudi know that there is a new, innocent and beautiful member of their tribe.

  9. Carol, what can the families do? If their sons did not do anything…how can they do anything??
    What’s the benefit of them knowing that there are members of their tribe living in the West? I’m sure that they would not even consider those children as their tribe (sinc the children came from infidel mothers etc….)
    This is soooo sad…..

  10. Ahhh, that little boy in a red vest in the picture is such a handsome little man!!!

  11. Heya AB and anyone else: I remember someone mentioning that Saudi grandmothers consider their sons’ children their true grandchildren. Their daughters’ children are not as important. Did I misunderstand this? If this is true, it would give some teeth to what this website is doing.

    Also abortion in so very strictly forbidden to most Christians that I wonder what the Muslim attitude is about the subject.

    Bedu, I don’t mean to highjack the thread here and do appreciate what you are trying to do.

  12. Annie

    There is a very famous ancient arabic rhyme said:

    Our children is our sons’ children,,,, Our dughters’ children is the children of remote men

    “”Abnaaona bno abnaena wa banatona bnnohonna abnao alregal lelabaedde””

    This rhyme dated back before Islam and the poet is not known -for me at least- and he or she was definitely an ignorant beduin man or women. I couldn’t find his or her name.

    However, this rhyme is partly true in almost every society, because our sons’ children will carry the name of our family, while our daughters’ children will carry other families names.

    It is difficult to know whether the rhyme meant this or not. But to what extent the society act based on this rhyme, and favour the children of their sons over the children of their daughters is difficult to know in my opinion. It needs field study. I have seen some families favour their sons’ children, other families favour their daughters’ children.

  13. Snowman I agree that this favoritism of male children is common not just Saudi.

    Also it is common for men to not show up for parenting. Saudi law seems unique in that it actually makes it very difficult for the men to act honorably in the situation of children conceived with western women.

  14. Oh and Snowman, thanks for the quote. That supports what I thought I had heard.

  15. Islam does not support abortion.

    Some families may make it obvious that males are favored but in my own experience Saudi families have loved all children, male or female.

    What can the families do? It is up to the families. If they wish, they can have an opportunity to meet the child who is being raised in the West. If they want, they can view the western woman as an infidel but the fact is, that western woman is raising a Saudi man’s child who has his blood. The children are innocent of any wrongdoing.

  16. Thanks for this service Carol. And no I don’t agree that Canadian (or American guys) are out to abandon willy-nilly a mother and child/pregnant mother all the time.

    While there are teen /very young mothers, there is the ongoing trend in North America where mothers are having less children. I believe Canadian birth rate is under 2 kids or around that. And more women in general, are waiting abit longer to have their first child.

  17. ﴿ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا إِنْ جَاءَكُمْ فَاسِقٌ بِنَبَأٍ فَتَبَيَّنُوا أَنْ تُصِيبُوا قَوْمًا بِجَهَالَةٍ فَتُصْبِحُوا عَلَى مَا فَعَلْتُمْ نَادِمِينَ (6) ﴾

    لو كان ما يدعيه هؤلاء النساء صحيح لاتخذوا الاجراءات الازمه وليس التشهير
    وحسبنا الله ونعم الوكيل

  18. You’re dreaming. They will never accept these children as part of their tribe and don’t expect any cash either. The Saudi fathers are now back home, happily married to an obedient Muslimah, bragging about how they tricked these kafir women into raising their kids. You will never see or hear from them again. Good luck with trying to get Saudi media to publish the story

  19. Hello all, while male children are prized in the Arab culture, female children are also loved. Ironically the grandmothers tend to favor their daughter’s children as their way of raising children is similar. As far as the abandoned children, wasn’t there a program launched a few years ago where the Saudi government set up offices in their embassies to deal with this tragedy? I’m in two minds about this, some women are being spared a very difficult life in Saudi Arabia but given a very difficult life in the States. A man who fathers a child may think he is avoiding a burden but he is losing much more than that. I feel sorry for the grandparents and aunts and uncles and all the cousins who will never know these children unless their fathers step up.

  20. Thank you Carol for your support in this matter, we have no words to describe the gratitude we feel to help us to send the message of our kids to their dad’s families…

    Also thanks to your readers for the comments. And absolutely, this matter is not just from Saudi guys, however this is our situation that’s why we named the blog as “Saudi father” could be whatever other nationality.

    I just want to clarify, not all these kids are from Zina, well whether or not, they are innocent and sinless of the actions of their parents (both of them, not just the western women). And the main point of all this, is to let their families know about their blood and what they decide to do will be up to them, we are not asking for money or luxuries as MANY people think, what we are asking is to get involve their families in our kid’s life or at least get some background of the medical conditions in their families to prevent our beloved kids.

  21. Thank you Carol for your support in this matter, we have no words to describe the gratitude we feel to help us to send the message of our kids to their dad’s families…

    Also thanks to your readers for the comments. And absolutely, this matter is not just from Saudi guys, however this is our situation that’s why we named the blog as “Saudi father” could be whatever other nationality.

    I just want to clarify, not all these kids are from Zina, well whether or not, they are innocent and sinless of the actions of their parents (both of them, not just the western women). And the main point of all this, is to let their families know about their blood and what they decide to do will be up to them, we are not asking for money or luxuries as MANY people think, what we are asking is to get involve their families in our kid’s life or at least get some background of the medical conditions in their families to prevent our beloved kids.

  22. Edited because of inappropriate language

  23. ALMOLA: As Carol said earlier, this post is not for you to come and insult the people who you probably don’t even know!
    Are you a Saudi???? Never heard this name before, must be a real tiny tribe down South…

  24. This post is about the CHILDREN.

  25. I am of two minds about this. On one hand, publicizing these stories may shame these kids and deter other Saudis from acting in this loutish manner. On the other hand, I am very deeply doubtful that anything good is going to come out of it for these specific kids. Ladies, I know that you have the best intentions and that you want your kids to be connected to one part of their heritage. But I think your good intentions do not agree with the harsh reality. The harsh reality is that these men decided they want nothing to do with you and their children, and there is nothing you can say to them that will suddenly make them go “Jeez, NOW I totally get get it. I should totally support my son/daughter and be a good father to them.” Nothing like that will happen.

    What will happen if families find out? Two things. One, they will pretend it has never happened. You are dealing with a society where concepts of shame and saving face are paramount. Or, the family will want to reclaim the kid, but NOT YOU. The father then will attempt to somehow get the child to visit Saudi and that will be the end of your contact with the child. Remember that in this society children belong to the man and the mother is all but irrelevant. Tell me: do any of these options appeal to you at all?

    I discussed this with my Saudi husband and that’s exactly what he hold me so believe me that I’m not making this up. Your best solution from now on is forget about these idiots, live your life and raise your children, meet a good man, marry him and let him raise your children as his own. If the deadbeat father ever surfaces, tell him that your children consider your new husband their father, and as far as you are concerned, the biological dad is dead or never existed. Don’t waste your time looking for acceptance from people who rejected you.

    P.S.: What’s with the bit about raising children Muslim? Do you say this to gain sympathy with the parents or do you really mean that? I ask you again – why ask for validation from people who rejected you? If I was in your shoes, I would tell the men, if ever asked, that I married another man and we’re raising these children as our own in Christian/Jewish/Buddhish faith.

    Look: you were dealt a crappy set of cards. I’m very sorry. It happens. Being a single mom is tough but you can do it. Apply yourself to being a good mom and getting your life back on track, and forget about the biodad.

  26. NN:
    I totally agree with you. I think if I were one of those mothers and read you post here, I would take it as a wake-up call and stop wasting my time on hoping for the impossible.
    As you said, no need for the validation after the rejection.
    And most probably those families, even if they find out, they will hide this fact very well to save their son’s life from being ashamed in that society. C’mon, those guys will need to get married, who will ruin their son’s life? Of course they will do anything and everything possible to bury this information.
    Finally, I agree that these women should concentrate on rebuilding their lives and looking for a real Father for their children. And those fathers could be both Christian or Muslim men, does not essentially matter. Religion does not matter. All you need is those children to be raised as good citizens and happy children.

  27. So, we should just ignore all jerks because we can’t change them anyway?

    What about calling out bad behavior so it doesn’t propagate? Not just with the fathers of these kids, but to potential future abandoning fathers. If anything this site will (inshallah) serve a lesson to others that they can no longer pull this $*!# and get away with it.

    I agree that this is not a Saudi issue – jerks exist in all nations – but these women have seen a particular pattern and are trying to bond together and address it. Nothing wrong with mutual support – in fact if nothing else good comes of the initiative, these women have gained a community and a resource to get them through tough times. That alone is worth it IMO.

    I also think that none of these women are looking for the Saudi guy to come back, marry them, and become a full-time father. In fact the site says repeatedly that the biggest priorities are an acknowledgement of mere existence from the dad and any pertinent medical history. Not even $ in most cases.

    Of course the extended family most likely won’t accept the kid – I think that’s understood – but as others have said this society is a lot about face. Calling people out in public will hopefully discourage the behavior.

    Part of me gets the Saudi dads – they were young and foolish, and I can’t think of a single Saudi guy who would be willing to confess a child out of wedlock to their family. Such a situation would send even the decent ones into a panic. However, that does not in the least excuse them from demanding to abort the child, treating their (former) significant other horrendously, and then pretending like nothing ever happened. At the very lowest level of decency they could provide some financial support (especially when the mother can’t afford medical care for the child) and perhaps a note every now and then in secrecy, but these guys didn’t even do that.

    I REALLY don’t get the men who married their wives while abroad, the wife even converting to Islam, then they still abandoned the kid (and wife). If the others had no excuse, these guys had negative excuses!!!

    Kudos to these women for standing up!!

  28. NN,

    I also totally agree with you. You have always been the sole voice of reason here. Your wisdom brings peace within me!

  29. Is anyone aware of a Saudi father who has claimed a child born out of wedlock? I was thinking about this and I’m not aware of anyone who has.

    I appreciate your husband giving his point of view, NN. I wonder what my own husband would have said or done if he were still here. I think it would probably be similar to what your husband said too.

  30. @ Almola, when you know the facts of all these stories came to give you harsh opinion about us. You don’t know anything about this sitation and how have been every story. Remember YOU CAN NOT judge something without knowledge, how you are so sure that we are sleeping with saudi guys, or the stu∗∗∗∗∗ statement you post?

    @Catherine , THANK to wrote your comment and tried to explained to other people what are our REAL concerns, as you pointed out and we repeat over and over again WE DO NOT WANT OUR SAUDIS BACK, we are just looking to get the medical history and to support the emotional seek of our kids which means at least they have a lil communication to them NOT to be 24/7 with them, NOTHING ELSE!!!

    @HeartIsBleedingPainButIamStrong, you were looking for answers about what to do with your Saudi boyfriend, learn from our situation, probably one of these women could be you in the future. And don’t misunderstand me, not ALL Saudi guys are bad, but you boyfriend as you described him in the other post ABSOLUTELY is not serious with you.

    @Others, The girls converted to Islam did not do it to get acceptance, to get sympathy, better look, or pity for others. The religion is not the matter here, the matter is that abandoned a child whether christian, Jewish, Muslim, American, European, or whatever, the point here is that is not right in any moral views and is not accepted by ANY belief even is was for zina or not, to abandoned your own blood. Or are we wrong??

    As someone posted out even if theses guys married us they still abandoned the wife and kid. And absolutely this situation is NOT just happening with Saudi, but Saudis were the guys who did that to us.

  31. almola:

    Jealous much.

  32. American Bedu thank you again for your help in this matter. Hopefully this post will reach members of these family’s and the lines of communication can begin.
    As a mother to one of these children I would love to comment all day defending myself and women who I now proudly call friends but that would be redundant. If you would like to know the woman’s story’s and what they are asking from the family’s American Bedu has the link to the list of letters.

    Since this post is about the children I would ask the readers help in getting this circulated. On a personal note the handsome little man in red is my precious son, and he deserves to be known!!!

  33. @american bedu

    yes i do know one. i don’t want to elaborate because i don’t wish to expose their situation.

  34. ABANDONED SAUDI KIDS:
    Thanks for your comment. Love makes people blind. Unfortunately, it’s hard for us to open our eyes sometimes. I know that deeply in your heart you care for all women who are with Saudi guys. You are worried about their destinies, lives, emotional health… I personally feel that with my heart and thank you for your support/warnings.

    To follow up on the situation with my b/f (so to say “b/f”, he really is just a guy in my life who is very far away and whom I see 2 or 3 times per year if I am lucky).

    I asked him to finally stop being a coward and talk to my parents and his parents. Obviously, our relationship is not a good relationship lately. He said that in the middle of this unhealthy relationship that we are having he is NOT gonna talk to parents. He said that we need to fix ourselves first. Can you imagine? He cannot even grasp that it is because of the whole hiding thing we are unhealthy! Also he said that I should not try to get him back by telling him to talk to parents, he said that this method will not work. Can u believe? He thinks I am dying here without him, that I am looking to trick him to win this relationship!!!

    Ahhh…. I am very exhausted in this whole relationship thing…. Plus, he is very emotional and controlling. He does not want me to talk to men at all ! ! ! Just how sick is that?…. I am 4 years older. What is he thinking!? Where is respect!!???

  35. I will share that I knew of one couple in Saudi where the woman became pregnant. The Saudi man did not want to abandon her but they were both trying to discretely find where she could go to have the pregnancy terminated. They both felt she would be killed by her family.

  36. Leyoula:

    Why are you with this loser?

  37. This is what some Saudi Arabians call family values. Sweet. Kill them for a mistake as the fascade of honor is greater than a person. Of course there is shame them , ex-communicate them, torture them, imprison, them, maim them, etc. Family Values means control women and beat children in to submission and be fearful of others if you chose a different path. Religion and the Saudi culture is replete with such family values.

    This to me this is the family values fo many cultures and religions and they can keep em as their values I want nothing to do with.

    Your are better off without such family values and those who hold to such values brings nothing worth having into your life other than what you have been given. Now take the one thing you have been given that is valuable and show this child what true family values are and that is one of inclusion, openness, happiness, acceptance, knowledge, education and forgiveness. Then allow your child to open the door to the world of possiblities and as you do so you are joining in on the ride of a lifetime.

  38. NN: I still do not know. I think it’s my strange love and past memories of greatness that still make me think about him.

  39. i love how people here talking about doing good things throw this……….
    in realty you just some women how……………….and have kids and they are using them for attacking this Saudi guys why there are no photo of the women if they are proud of what they did. this problem all kind of nationality have it but the only rich one is the Saudis so lats attack them and be blind from the black, Whit and Hispanic . and leyoula of course you want anther men in your life……like this woman and you should get a kid from him so you will be more value

    why you want to know where am from in Saudi Arabia so you can attack me to?? am still Arabian and Muslim
    Jealous loool from what? seriously

  40. American Bedu “must be a real tiny tribe down South…” are you against people from the south too ???

    get over yourself

  41. Almola:

    Apparently tongue tied I see. I can’t really make much sense out of your tirade. :twisted:

  42. :)

  43. i love how people here talking about doing good things (throw) using this kids for the mother anger.
    in realty you just some women who are sleeping around with guys and have kids from them and then they are using them for attacking this Saudi guys why there are no photo of the women if they are proud of what they did. this problem all kind of nationality have it but the only rich one is the Saudis so lats attack them and be blind from the black, Whit and Hispanic . and leyoula of course you want another men in your life so when you mad at your guy you sleep around with no gelt like this woman and you should get a kid of your own from the saudi guy you with now so you will be more value ( i trapt him with this kid and did not work so i have to get back at them) all of you saudi know the family of this kids will never accept the zina kids and there good mothers ?

  44. Almola:

    It certainly doesn’t bode well for the Saudi men either. It shows what the men are really made of which isn’t much.

  45. true but the woman are not insint so do not give me that ps about the women been so good and innocent. they are worng to and the wrong come from them first the these Stupid men.

  46. Let me ask you. If you were lead to believe that you were going to have a partner in life and you shared yourself with this person who stated they were going to be with you for all time. Your where lead to believe that you were to be their wife and then you get pregnant who is more at fault? The man or the woman. Then who is left to raise an outstanding kid the man or woman? So who deserves the greater support the man or woman?

    Quite franktly until the man adult’s up then he and his childlike culture deserves great contempt and scrunity.

  47. @Almola, I think you didn’t get the main point of this post, this talking about the women not about the girls or the guys fault or mistakes, this is talking about the CHILDREN who are the only one innocent here. Before you judge and made this kind of statements you need to know the facts of EVERYTHING.

    So, I will tell you a little bit of my story, as BIGSTICK1 was saying the father of my son made me believe that he would be my life partner, that i was the love of his life, that he will always be with me, and that we were going to raise our son together as a “happy family”… but guess what??? he abanoned us when i was almost 5 months pregnant, but the most shameful thing of what he did was when he talked with my father to tell him how happy he was to become a father, that he loves me and i will give him his first son or daughter, he was telling him that he will respect me and make me the most happy girl in the world because i deserve it, but guess what again??? he left two days after that talking, and the only thing he gave me was a huge heartache… So he has to be proud of what he had done just because he is a “rich and Saudi guy”??? …. Other thing you have to know is that we were together for LOOOOOOONG time, not just for 1 or 3 nights.

    On the other hand, i had nothing to hide because i have been taking care of my son and i didn’t accept to abort him just because the selfish Saudi thinking. I gave him a choice when i knew about my pregnancy and his answer was “i will be with you and raise our kid together” (LIE)…. If you think that i’m using my son I AM NOT, and i have no fear to show my face to the world because i’m proud of him and all i have been doing. Please Almola, before talk think about it, you don’t know nothing about this girls, and i have a real statement for you there is Rich people in the whooooooole world not just in Saudi Arabia, and not ALL Saudis are Rich. Most of these women are more well educated than them, and what is your real statement to said that we got pregnant just to trap them? i have a question people, if that is true why we decide to keep our kids after they left us? that just don’t make sense to me.

    And you are trying to defended this “poor” guys from the “evil” western women when they were “adults” to lived with this girls and both parties knows about the consequence of having sex could bring. I really don’t think they are so innocent to don’t know that if they have sex they can impregnate the girl. As i told my Ex “without you i could not have a baby” and what he replied was “i want you and love you but without the child” Real great man, huh?

  48. Almola,
    Yes these things happen with all kinds of men. I think what you are missing is THIS blog- is about Saudi Arabia. THIS story is about Saudi men.

    And why on earth would the women want to trap these men- or Saudi men in general? What’s so great about Saudi men? Even a Saudi man who is rich doesn’t make up for living in Saudi Arabia- which treats women badly. There is NO reason a western woman would want to “trap” a Saudi.

    As for the mothers in these cases- the truth is- all I would want from these men is the medical history and money. Yes, I said it. Why shouldn’t the father at a minimum ensure their child has food, clothes and medical care. That’s only a small part of taking care of a child and one that takes a minimum of effort for these men.

    Otherwise I wouldn’t want the man having a relationship with my child because what if he stole it? Not worth the risk in my opinion,

  49. @almola,

    This is really a simple case of men acting like cowards and not taking care of their responsibilities and the women doing their best to take care of their children (as they should and are obligated to).

    I think you should reconsider your entire approach to this issue as your position seems to be on the wrong moral side.

  50. Edited because of inappropriate language

  51. Pills don’t always work. Didn’t you know that? Or were you ignorant?There is also Muslim men saying “no- lets wait till we’re married” Plan “B” from the men seems to be get an abortion, or desertion. Again…why on earth would any woman want to “trap” a Saudi?

  52. Edited because of inappropriate language

  53. go…….

  54. girls with the abandon children, do you really want to struggle to have a relationship with someone like almola?? he is a dime a dozen of a saudi jerk. he probably knows one of you or the fathers. it is you girls against the saudi fathers, and that is what it is. you and your family against the father and his family. you will lose because they dont care, and never did. what you gave them was nothing more than what they could get from the girl down the block. and they will win ,because they dont want anything from you and never did. move on with your life, and stop using medical reports as an excuse to hang on to these guys. a good doctor will take care of your kid. some kids develope medical conditions that were never in the family in the first place. it’s a smear blog, and i think possibly against the law..”defamation of character”
    do your research on it, because these guys can come back with their stories on you. and im sure they have the money for a pricey attorney. just a little twist in the subject-

    and if they come back and have to pay child support, be ready to let him take the kid on the weekends–you will have no control from there.

  55. @gia, we respect you opinion but let me tell you that his is not a smear blog… I think is enough about repeating the main point of the blog. Most of these men ran away after the Child support got involved and the court order was sent to them, if they already ran what make you think they will want to come back ??? … Medical records are not an excuse to hang on these men, you are right that a GOOD doctor will take care of our kids but sometimes is necessary to known both families disease to make easy many thing. But anyways i respect you opinion.

  56. Edited because of inappropriate language

  57. almola, your lack of compassion for the innocent children saddens me. Are your words what you want people who do not know anything about Saudi Arabia or its people to believe as the truth?

  58. Great comments, About raising the children Muslim, please, Why? Raise the atheist! teach them about all religions and how artificial they really are, how in every part of the world people make up different invisible friends, and how religions are made up by misogynist men,m and how wrong the magic books are in matters concerning women and slavery, and how backwards in their ideas of science, and how bad and evil the ”morality” in these books is.

    i would teach them all about Saudi Arabia and make sure they never want to visit there.

    And I would tell my porcine ex–boyfriend/husband all about it.

  59. Almola, thanks for sharing your thoughts here.
    I enjoy these threads always far more if there’s a real bastard commenting too.

  60. Gia, I think asking for the medical dossier of a Saudi father is important.
    Especially in the case of Saudi fathers.
    It is fact that Saudis practice inbreeding, cousins marrying cousins, and have been doing so for centuries, hence Saudi has a great many genetic diseases which are very rare in the rest of the world firmly established in their society.

    It is the obligation of any mother to look up this stuff, in the interest of her child.

  61. Edited because of inappropriate language

  62. Almola:

    Here are a couple of questions. Are you a male or female? I tend to think female. Do you live in a muslim country? I am thinking Saudi.

    Next how are these women using their children for their own benefit?

    Next why do you assume the men are stupid? Is stupidity some how an excuse for their use of these women and their inexcusable act of cowardice, immaturity, and probable lies to the women, their own family as well as the innocent children?

    Then let’s take a look a your character shall we. Based upon your statements you are jealous that men apparently have engaged in this behavior outside of their selected grouping leavingthe green eyed monster within you to exhibit your true hateful nature.

    You follow your prophet well.

  63. Edited because of inappropriate language

  64. i think you like to think of me as female (bigstick).
    loooooooooool ;)

  65. Do you live in Saudi?

  66. Actually I really don’t care. You are a pathetic excuse for a female full of vile and hate. You are eaten up with jealous and you have sunk down to the whole using my moniker as a sex object for your mental pleasure which quite frankly tells me you have the moral compass of a slug.

  67. @bigstick
    I think we are in the same boat.

  68. Edited because of inappropriate language

  69. Edited because of inappropriate language

  70. Almola:

    Troll.

  71. Edited because of inappropriate language

  72. Almola:

    Are a typical Saudi Woman? If so, I now fully understand why your men seek other women.

  73. i really think you like me bigstick. that why you asked me if i was a female.

  74. Should have read:

    Are you a typical Saudi woman? If so, I now fully understand why your men seek other women.

  75. AB:

    Make it go away.

  76. you really want to know me more awwwww that is so sweet ;)

  77. i still have a lot to say if you have the right question. plus i make this party going. ;)

  78. almola, is bored, and sounds like a male. he knows american girls are sweet and very well more shy than the average arab girl. im sure he knows that MOST arab males had to aproach the american girls they want to date, not the other way around. american girls dont chase guys, they dont need to. saudi girls make prank phone calls waiting for a nice voice to answer so they can get a relationship going. you would never see the american male do what the average saudi guy does, trying to get a date. and saudi girls are not shy at all and very aggressive (will not hesitate to let you know who’s boss)saudi girls know that it is the weekends at the mall (and you know which one that is) to go get hit on by the men. saudi girls love the attention from the arab man chasing them down the road-that’s why they go out on those days/nights. they certainly dont stay home? and most divorced saudi girls are out looking for a man. and here is a big one, ”saudi girls only let you know what they want you to hear/know, and the american girl will tell you everything.” think yourself lucky if you get yourself an american girl. it’s nice to be married to an honest girl, and one that truly loves you, because she choose to be with you–not just to get married and spit out kids- before she gets OLD.

    most of these abandon children come from mothers who are latino,or it seems like that. latino culture is a bit different than the average american. they love everyone, and welcome everyone. and the saudi is closer to that culture, and they look the same. i hope i hit a cord.

    p.s.
    american guys are way better looking than arabs. even though im married to one, that is my opinion after submerging my life with the people. and arabs are very jealous people. weird. and the men lie.weird again. that should be in the medical report.

  79. Edited because of inappropriate language

  80. see i can make it going .

    your turn

  81. AB

    I feel like Al is back. Can you censor it on the sexual insults. Please.

  82. I’m pretty sure I recognize Almolas style of writing. He’s been here before long ago- and I believe one other time also impersonated a female. I think on this very same topic which seems to excite him quite a bit.

  83. sandy you like what i sayed that why you going away from what i sayed

    i know what i say is truth that why no one is saying back to it. they all attack me. it is not personal am saying what is happning is that why you did this page so everone say his/her opinon ?

    i feel bad for the kids the will be like there moms :( they should go back to saudi they will live batter is that why there mom were with saudi guy before………….

  84. @Almola, If you really a Saudi girl you should heard how “your lovely Saudi” boys express about you Saudis, and why they said that they don’t want to marry ANY Saudi girl.

    First, They spread the stories when they are dating with Saudis, how obsessive they are, and how much they love to have sex for the BACK, and how much they love that they touch them. So at the end in Saudi there are more B∗∗∗∗ because at least we don’t hide what we have done or try to be look as innocent and very “Pure” girl when they are nothing close to a “pure girl”, i met a lot of Saudi guys and they always say “when you Marry a Saudi girl you have to check his Shn6n (back)… Second, you are talking that we western women are with them because we want their money??? They have to pay a lot of money for you, not because you worth it it’s just because your parents are arrangement the marriage… At least if we are with them is not for money or for pleasure is because they treat us extremely well, they are charming, and they fall in love with us… if they marry us is because they love us not because the convenience of our parents. Third, Saudi girls are jealous of us because they never gonna inspire a Saudi man to feel what they feel for us… if they marry a western will be for love, if he marry a Saudi he will have to get used to “love” her… Maybe we are not pure and virgins, but at least they know our past, in your case Saudi girls the only virgin place you have is in the front but unlucky for you that’s not make you a virgin because you already has sex from ALL the other possible parts. Forth, look at the way you talk, saying bad words, calling names people, and all that stuff Are you really a lovely Saudi girl or are you one of their bi∗∗∗∗ because i have heard from the Saudi men that when a Saudi girl express herself in the way you do is because she like to hang out with many different guys. At least we don’t need to be calling random phones to catch the attention of a men, they come to us without asking…. I BET YOU, ANY SAUDI MEN WHO WAS IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH A WESTERN GIRL Will LOVE HIS “LOVELY WIFE” AS HE ALREADY LOVE THE OTHER GIRL.

    And please Almola, stop giving opinions out of topic if you are not agree with this innocent kids why you are wasting your time in this page, you can go to the mall and catch the phone of a men, of just dial a random number and entertain yourself…. You have to understand that we are talking about the Kids (zina or not they still will be the first son/daughter of them). I think you are so jealous of these girls because you are a single Saudi girl that is waiting to marry but non Saudi want you, but don’t worry sooner or later will come a man to pay for you.

    @Other people, she or he is trying to get the attention if all of us ignore her/him even if she/he say more stupid things she/he wil go away… so just don’t reply and let’s focus in the intent of American Bedu when she first write the article.

  85. come on all this you say and you want to stop (you do not like to hear the real truth about you) well i got a lot more but i think you know all of this is wrong for the kids and now the world will know about this kids …………………………………..Edited because of inappropriate language

    Almola, you are using bad language, and you are personally rude. You are going too far. From now on you will be put in moderation. If your comments are decent they will be let through, otherwise not.
    Also your English is very bad. Please do not use text-language. This is an internet forum, please write normally.
    Moderator

  86. What this bull– about ”pure” and ”virgins”? This male-wet-dream virginity cult is nonsense anyway, purity does not lie in ‘virginity”, it lies in your heart, in your intentions, in your honesty.
    So far one thing is clear, these Saudi boys are definitely not pure, they are filthy.

    I think it’s quite possible that almola is a dude. He sounds like a dude, he is obsessed with sex (from all directions) like a dude, and he seems jealous of Bigstick’s supposedly Big Stick, which definitely sounds like a dude.
    A dude with very impure thoughts….
    Yuk!

  87. Carol, I think you have the authority to delete the shameful, dirty comments almola made here?…
    I strongly believe this low person does not deserve to be with normal people.
    Almola: I pray for your sanity. You really lack it.

  88. american men can build houses, fix cars, roads, and change his babies diaper. oh, and he wll do the dishes, because he loves his family. saudi man can just sit and drink tea, smoke ciggs, and gossip about small minded stuff. american men sweat from doing the yard work of his home he takes pride in, while the saudi man just sweats from nothing more than the desert heat. believe me one is more attractive than the other by far. and my saudi has learned the american ways to sweat..he can do it all. and he married his equal in moral quality.

    thais, that is so true on the back door. the girls are ruining themselves doing that, the saudi mans fetish for sure.

    p.s. amola
    how do you know what is inside of the american mans undies…even i dont know that one? humm–more secrets from the wife

  89. THAIS: well said! :)
    GIA: I agree.

  90. Aafke-Art, totally agree with you about virginity but it’s a wide spread idea the is well implanted all over the world. Nothing can change it.

  91. well you like the kind of men who serve us i can hook you up with the trash man who work for us . this is a kingdome with a king that mean we have people who serve us. if you do not like our lovely saudi guys how come your girls never leave them alone??? like Leyoula, i do not have to look for there undies this women prove my point. truth harts and all i want is to see if you really looking to make good out of this or you are just bunch of people who heat saudi’s. and by reading the comment you proved my point. let me till you about real saudi arabia. this kids are zina (sorry but fact) kids in the eyes of society there. so the guys and there families will not accepts them with there moms. they think the kid will be better of without a mom (for us this mom are bad. moms really bad for what they did (zina) ) so they will never be proud of the mom and think she will be bad for the family and the women around her. we do not live like you. one women with bunch of kids from different dads. this women seem normal in the western countries but in saudi arabia she is …. and think of her like animal. am welling to get you all this guys families numbers, address and name of there family members (it will take me some time) but let me till you what most of them will probably say. “send the baby to us we will take care of him/her” or “this baby came from zina we will not be proud to make him/her one of our family” you have to know how the family act when the same situation happen with saudi girl in saudi. ether you marry him to cover this shameless act or you leave the baby to the dad’s family. bc what you did is unacceptable and you are very bad mom for doing zina. you can’t raise this baby right. call us old school,Retarded,racist……etc. this is the harsh truth. and yes we marry our relative. but unfortunately we do not have history medical records all our records start really early on after education came to us. sorry for that i think you should be mad at history and lake of education in the old days. so why they still hanging on so hard to this stupid men. (sorry but they are). i think there are anther reasons……? like how i told you before…………….???

  92. Almola, (this is a guy name, btw) can you give us the perspective of how these men will be seeing by their families and the society? because took both parties to commit zina, or to got marry (then the guy left…).

    I think nobody can exactly known what these families will says because ALL the people have different ways of thinking even if they come from an old school society, obviously no Saudi family will be super happy to know that his lovely son’s commit such a great sin but i don’t think they want them to live in the hellfire for ever…. What i know is that Islam it says that if you can prove that a child is yours and then you as a father or mothers ignores the child- that is a great sin, meaning no matter how many good things you do in the future- you will surely burn in the hellfire.

  93. Well said, Thais.

  94. @almola said: “let me till you about real saudi arabia. this kids are zina (sorry but fact) kids in the eyes of society there. so the guys and there families will not accepts them with there moms. they think the kid will be better of without a mom (for us this mom are bad. moms really bad for what they did (zina) ) so they will never be proud of the mom and think she will be bad for the family and the women around her.”
    With those words I am convinced that you are indeed a man pretending to be female. So you say that the women who commit zina (adultery for the rest of you guys.) would be bad for the family as well as the other women around them. What about the men how commit the same sin, are they not a bad influence on the family and other men around them?
    I’m sure that you are aware of the huge numbers of Saudi men who travel abroad to such places as Morocco, Indonesia, Tunisia, Thailand, and the Philippines in search of illegal sexual relations. There are many, many stories on the subject of women who have been taken advantage of and left behind with children by Saudi men. So don’t come on here spouting your BS, when you know darn well how hypocritical Saudi men are.
    And for your information-many people have ill feelings towards Saudis regarding their ignorance, arrogance, and hypocrisy. Most Saudis treat other nationals as if they aren’t even humane, and then they have the nerve to cry about it if someone treats them in the same manner.
    You can sit there and defend Saudi men all you want. But let me tell you something, Saudis are the ones who make people think of them the way that they do. Perhaps if you would all learn to behave and stop acting like animals that have been let off of their leashes, as well as start showing respect for others, people just might change their opinions of you. But sadly, the damage has already been done.

  95. all you going to hear is the real BS what i said was to show you what you facing here. all of them wrong and the families of the guys will move on or try convince the mom to give up there baby’s try to get you the info about this guys family but you will not believe me. so good luck . my question for you all why still hang on to the saudi guys that much? for there money right or for…….. i will leave that to you

    and by the way do not talk about islam if you do not know it right please.
    in islam there are a section called zina kids and how to deal with that station read you ignorant

  96. @almola
    Why do the saudi men chase the saudi girls in malls, driving, dialing random phone numbers, or computers? what do they plan on doing with these girls once they get a relationship going with the saudi girl. is their intentions the same as what the saudi guys do to the american girls? do you have any, or know of any experience of these situations in saudi. you seem to be traditional, and even i side more to that than the free dating atmosphere. but just wondering since you are a saudi male and have more insight on the topic. i ask my husband, but he cant relate to the funny ways guys try to get the girls, since he spent most of his life outside of his country. but he does agree american girls are more free, but there are good girls out there, just have to look–dirt sticks to dirt.

    and i know not all saudi guys chase the girls. just like not all girls give out.

  97. Why are women who have sex supposed to be bad women? Why are men who have sex not equally bad men?
    All these notions are artificial and usually based on the repressive dogma’s of the Abrahamic religions. Religions devised by primitive misogynist men.
    And we know what most religions want: they want women to be subjected to men, if not actually chattel of men. Therefore women who like sex, who choose to have sex are ”bad”.
    Women are property, women are cows, and as women are to be owned by men, especially their sexuality, their reproductive rights are not women’s own, as they should be. No, they belong to the men, the owners. Therefore men are ok to have sex, and women are not. Women can have only sex with the man who own them as property.

    How despicable to denounce 50% of humanity for what humanity has been designed to do. How utterly despicable to then excuse the other 50% of doing the same, and all based on gender.
    What a shallow and immoral world view.
    And the children are tainted? Bastards? How utterly immoral!

    The only problem I have is when people are not responsible on the subject of birth control, and the prevention of std’s.
    And there we see in the rel world the failure of religion again, the more religious a community, to more std’s and the more unwanted children.
    It really is high time humanity wakes up and grows out of these archaic, dishonorable and immoral notions about the natural sex act.

    As long as the sexual drive is built into us, as a natural drive, it is only normal to have sex. And if you believe in some invisible supernatural sky-daddy, who has created us, you will have to come to grips that this entity apparently wanted us to have lots of good sex.
    So you may be jealous, but you have to stop blaming people who actually do what the invisible sky daddy intended us to do.

  98. @Aafke-Art

    Please don’t be offensive about others beliefs by saying “sky daddy” and what not. It really doesn’t make one look intelligent, but the exact opposite. Let’s not bring unnecessary, childish insults into this. :-/

  99. @Aafke-Art

    By the way, there is no such thing as a bastard or illegitimate child in Islam.

  100. Kareem:

    Quite frankly, the words God/Allah are considered offensive to many. So how about the religious stop talking about make believe offensive deities who inflict suffering upon humanity via their believers with their rule laden text based upon make believe to inflict hatred, offensiveness and torture upon the weaker(women/children), the different(gay/lesbian) or the non-believers(the men who are not in your click today).

  101. Almola:

    Please reference the section in the Quran on Zina Kids.

  102. PEOPLE!!! PLEASE!!!! I’ve refrained from making comments after my first, and only, very wise comment because it hurts my eyes to see you, intelligent, grown-ass people, debating with an illiterate troll!!! Why! Why in the name of the arse do you waste your time on the idiot who takes joy in provoking you?? You have the “ignore” function, use it!

    Ladies, pay attention.

    But all is not lost, he did share with you a few tolerable bits. First, there are no medical records, so stop trying to get them. Second, they are retarded and racist (well, people like him are.)

    There are all kinds of tests out there you can perform. Saudis don’t really share information on recurring birth defects in the family, even if known. My never-married SIL still doesn’t tell anyone except her immediate family that she had breast cancer, because, get this, at 45 years old she thinks it will hurt her chances of marriage. I feel, like, with all my sympathy, respect and affection for cancer survivors…if no one married you before 45, the chances of that in Saudi are close to nil. And if someone DOES marry you at 45, it ain’t for the tits.

  103. Bigstick, thank you, I was going to comment something the same. It amazes me why religious people are always playing the victim card, and complain about being ”insulted” while they go on and on and on insulting rational people all the time.

    I am insulted on an hourly basis by religions and religious people. You know what? Being insulted is a part of life, and if you choose to believe bronze age nonsense bout invisible sky daddies, supported by immoral misogynist badly written magic books, you can only expect to be made fun off, and there is no ”right not to be insulted” be a man and deal with it.

  104. NN, excellent comment as usual!

  105. Bigstick said Quite frankly the words Allah n God are considered offensive (to extremist atheists tht is) well the word Atheism is highly offensive to Majority of the worlds population.and Aafke said she’s tired of the religious playing the victim card. I for one hv decided its time for some counter attacks on these disrespectful militant-ish atheists with their complete disregard on basic toler

  106. On basic tolerance among human.

  107. Don’t ever dare to have sex even date any Saudi men (boys) especially the ones studying abroad. It’s not love. I’s just lust!

  108. Mrs Bawazir, the religious have had it their way for far too long, they get all kinds of extra’s and undeserved respect and it’s time for that to end.
    ”Call somebody a priest or a reverend and there’s nothing they can’t get away with”

    To ”be a person of faith” is not a badge of honor, it is an admission that you are willing to believe whatever nonsense for no good reason. And while I think anybody is, and should be, free to believe whatever they want, I also think that nobody has the right to tell other people what they should believe, or how they fill their lives, or whom they want to love, etc.
    And that is exactly what religious people cannot stop doing.
    Also, if you admit ”blind faith” and your support to some immoral magic book from the bronze age, you should not be allowed any influence on politics or education, you should not be regarded with respect, but with suspicion and commiseration.

    I don’t know what you mean with ”militant atheists”, for if you look around you you will see that atheists are not militant at all.
    Atheists do not burn down other peoples places of worship, like Christians and Muslims do, there are no Atheist suicide-bombers. Atheists do not go door to door with a blank piece of paper and fantasies of eternal torture to terrorize people into their belief.

    Because Atheism is the lack of belief.

    And don’t forget, you mrs Bawazir, are an Atheist too. I am quite sure you do not believe in Inanna, or Allat, or Hathor, or Vishnu, or Anansi, or Wodan, or Elohim, or…… etc. etc. So in view of those Gods you are Atheist yourself.
    Humanity has invented thousands of Gods which nobody believes in anymore.
    You can see quite clearly when you look at other religions why their stories and claims don’t make sense and what’s wrong with them, only with your own faith you wear the blinders.
    And so it is for other people from other beliefs, they can see quite clearly what’s wrong with Islam, but they wear the blinders (only) when they look at their own faith.

    The only small difference is that people who are Atheists do not wear blinders for any particular faith, they can see in all faiths the hand of men, the inconsistencies, the made up myths, and also, the fact taht each new religion borrows heavily from those which came before. For example: The Quran has large parts plagiarized from the Bible, and the continuation of pagan rituals in the Kaaba.

    Now lately Atheist people, (those who cannot believe in unproved ”gods”) are speaking up, because they are tired of having illogical, nonsensical, cruel, immoral and misogynist religious people telling other people how to live their life, getting undeserved preferential treatment, like tax exemptions and undeserved ”respect”. While putting out death threats, and killing non-conformists, taking human rights from women, abusing children and still playing the victim card.
    How dare religious people play the victim card when we see that wherever a country is under religious rule there is killing and torture and abuse? All in the name of their particular ”religion”???
    How dare you!?!?

    And so you see atheists finally banding together and making their voice heard.
    Just their voice.
    No burnings, no bombings, no witch trials.
    That is what the religious do.

  109. And btw, when I say that everybody should be free to believe whatever they want, worship whatever they want, you get the gist of what Atheists think.
    And you know as well as I do, that this is the greatest difference between Atheists and religious, because that is exactly what the religious will not allow.

    In a country under religious rule you can and often do get murdered for having a different faith. look at what is happening in the world, especially the Muslim world, right now.
    In a country based on secular rule you are free to believe and worship who or whatever you want.
    Your churches, temples and mosques will be left alone, instead of burned down. You should be supporting Atheism. you should be supporting secularism, for this is what allows not only others, but you too to be free and worship whom or whatever you choose to worship.

  110. @bigstick and Afke
    I’m not going to get in to a religious discussion here, because this is not not the topic of discussion. I refuses to adopt the same behaviour as some militant atheist here. Time and time again, your childish demeanour gets the best of you. Give it a rest already.

  111. Kareem, it has everything to do with the topic, For one the archaic idea that women who have sex are bad, is purely religiously inspired. It is inspired by religions which, when it really comes to the bottom line, consider women and their reproductive capabilities, to be the property of men, and therefore women do not have the right to choose to have sex. And their babies are tainted.
    A totally immoral concept for which religion is the basis and perpetuator.

    We see a lot of callous comments here,on this topic and even worse on other topics, religion inspires this hard-line behavior. There has been a study published which shows that religious people show less compassion and less empathy for other people in need than non-religious people.
    And the comments here, and on many other topics on Bedu support that hypothesis.
    I have never before seen such utterly disgusting inhumane comments as written by the most pious religious commentators on Bedu.

    The root cause is religion. Religions which teach their sheep for example: to Muslims: hindus and atheists are not even animals, but just breathing machines.
    And this was uttered by a ”moderate” muslim.
    Religion de-humanizes people.

    What about this topic? Religion is the main cause why these boys think they can lie and fuck around because all western women are only whores anyway, because they are not Muslim, and because as long as they come home to marry a ”pure” virgin they are ok with god and the world. Religious scholars tell these boys it is ok to to deceive women from the west, marry them, use them, and abandon them when you are finished studying.
    And religion and the twisted insane society it created in Saudi Arabia is the cause why these boys go nuts in other countries, and why, if they actually love the girl they still have to lie to them and dump them.
    Religion poisons everything.

    Did you read my comment to mrs Bawazir?
    Or are you to scared that your faith is build on too shaky ground to read rationalist comments?

  112. @Kareem,

    You sound like someone who cannot win a logical argument so you default to throwing titles around. Very weak!!!

  113. Kareem, in one small picture, my whole comment to mrs Bawazir:

  114. or this one:

  115. Militant atheists proselytizing:

  116. Another look at a real life militant Christian, militant Muslim, and Militant Atheist

  117. Mrs Bawazir, thinking about it I actually wonder about your comment, what do you think you should do to ”fight” militant atheists? What bothers you so much about atheists? What do you think ”militant atheists” actually do?
    I mean apart from writing, and eating kittens for breakfast of course.

  118. moq – i agree

    aafke-art – thx for sharing. a pic is worth a bajillion words!

  119. @Aafke-Art:

    Those are great!!!! Well this militant atheist here will be writing on my blog regarding Mitt Romney’s indecision of whether he would have signed the Lilly Ledbetter Act for equal pay. Then recently I wrote about those FEM NAZI nuns who went against the Vatican in their not applying themselves adequately against women seeking abortions, the birth control pills and gay rights. Instead they were bogged down with the silly things like helping feed children, getting monies for those who are in poverty, aiding the sick and disable. I mean really where are these nun’s priorities. They also had the nerve to support health insurance for women for the reproductive health to include poor women. After all the Vatican is making sure they adhere to doctrines by the making women into chattle doctrine, rape children and hide it, and hate gays tactics.

    As you know as a militant atheist I fully intend to side with the Lilly Ledbetter Act, as I think equal pay for equal work is fair. I will side with the FEM NAZI as I think full access to health care be you rich or poor is worth supporting. I think aiding the sick, disabled, people in poverty and ending world hunger are noble and good causes. In addition, I don’t hate LGBT’s and feel like they deserve equal rights as well. But hell, that is just me the militant atheist who thinks humanity needs to ensure human rights for all.

    I know, I know ….. I am a bigot. I dislike people who enforce gender aparthied, torture, murder, inequality, hatred, discrimination.

    So for this I am a bigot and a militant atheist. Oh well…….somebody’s got to it.

  120. Yes, bigstick but besides writing, I mean what else do you do? Is there anything or anyone you want to bomb? I mean just supporting justice and good causes does not a militant make.

  121. @MoQ
    The weakest ones are thoes who have nothing productive to say other than feeling the need to attack other’s beliefs. I do not care what you believe or don’t believe in, it’s your right to believe what ever you want. Just don’t try toforce your ideas on others here’s. Especially when it’s of topic.
    @Afke
    I’m sorry inform you, but I have infact spoken with many militant atheist who were also Nazis among other things. And they claimed to have attacked religious people as well as minorities. So save me the BS about atheist being peace loving and nonmilitary, Because it’s only a lie you tell yourself.

  122. kareem, now we know you are full of sh*t, these people don’t exist, you just made it up because you do not have an argument.
    Sad.

  123. Kareem:

    Dude Go to the April 17, 2012 Punishment article under American Bedu and find an entire conversation on Islam/Catholic Nazism. Hitler was Catholic with a gread love for muslims and their joint venture of extemination of the jews.

  124. Aafke:

    Ouch. You really know how to hurt a guy. I was trying again on sarcasm. Wow, I really suck at it.

    Hey I give to FRFF.org does that make me a militant? According to Mrs. B, I am militant.
    :(

  125. Sorry it is FFRF.org. I get going to fast on the keyboard at times.

    How about supporting NARAL.org? Is that NAZI Like? I hear they are FEM NAZIs. Is that like an militant atheist NAZI?

    I Sooooo confused. Maybe I am doing the whole militant atheist Nazi thing wrong.

    Can someone give me some pointers? :D :laughing:

  126. But I was trying to be sarcastic myself!
    Tsssssss

  127. Aafke, stop the hypocrisy. U stated atheists never infringe anyones rights. You don’t even know what’s a militant atheist. Have you not studied history or did you focus only on the history of evil Muslims? Have you heard of Plutarco Ellias Calles? Have you read about the Soviet Union?have you not studied about Vladimir Lenin who was highly influenced by the arch atheist Karl Marx?how about the People’s Socialist Republic of Albania?those State Atheism hv done horrors to people of religion.how about People’s Republic of China tht eradicated all Buddhism n converted temples into secular buildings.then we hv Pol Pot who killed monks,burnt temples,he ford Muslims to eat pork, Muslims n christians n the religious were killed by this Khmer Rouge. Do u wakt more?

  128. Just go to youtube and type militant atheists and you’ll see the atrociousness caused by people of extremism, people who can’t stand giving others respect, by your own words Aafke, the religious do not deserve respect.

  129. Bigstick, with your current attitude,, give you enough power qnd we ll witness another Pol Pot massacre.

  130. Mrs. B:

    I am glad you finally understand that Hitler was a Catholic who admired Muslims. I will counter these as well in a while. I currently doing my militant athestic thing and writing an article for my blog.

  131. Mrs. B:

    I get it now you have issue of conveying humor. Like I have issues conveying sarcasm.

    Okay. I will laugh now. HHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHH.
    :)

  132. Aafke,militant atheists hv existed n still do, sadly. So its not bullshit as u told kareem.

  133. Mrs. B:

    Okay I counter.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/refuting-the-myth-that-hitler-stalin-and-pol-pot-were-atheists-1

    The ball is in your court.

    You know I really starting to fine this tennis game interesting. :)

  134. @Afke
    So that’s the best you can do, say that I just made that all up for the sake of argument? I’m sorry, but I just don’t play it that way. If you would just step outside ofyour little world for a minute, you would come to know that atheist groups with roots Nazism as well as even satanic influnces do in fact exist. I’ve had run-ins with all kinds of atheist groups. So stop trying to pretend that atheism produces the perfect individual-bc as I said before, it’s only a lie you tell yourself. ;)

  135. My claims were based on history by Historians, not by some atheist examiner. These super power murderers were driven by their hatred on religion call them atheists or religion-haters, their basic force mechanism were fueled by their animosity towards religiok n the religious. Just like yourself here. You fail to display the slightest bit of respect or even tolerance, no, or even indifference to ppl of religion, you actually Hate the religious n religion. You are a controlling freak, why do i say tht?becauwe you hv the audacity to questiok Laylah from blueabaya on het decision to live k raise her child in Saudi, u mocked her n ppl like her,u even mocked me for MY choice of clothing on her blog. U terrorize religion n the religious all under the pretext of making the world a better place. You n the likes or u are tye reasons wyy violence are a never-ending occurrence.

  136. @Bigstick
    I’m not talking about Hitler nor Nazis of his time, I speak of present day Nazi groups.

  137. Laylah compared women to meat and men to dogs as an excuse to why women had to dress with the black bag. So yes, I was a little aggravated with her post of being treated less than respectfully after that statement of hers since women should understand that they are meat and men are uncontrollable rabid dogs. So I made a point. You just didn’t like the fact that it was a truthful point.

  138. Mrs. B:

    Although I will dispute the atheist govenment reference, here is an articles that compares the two.

    http://windupmyskirt.wordpress.com/2012/02/05/people-with-gods/

    Kareem:

    Get me an organization and then we will talk.

  139. @Bigstick,

    Karem and MrsBawazir are confused human beings. They do not know history, they do not know the difference between a nazi and a person that does not believe in a god, they do not even know what constitutes a historian, a real history book verses a book of fables, etc.

    I mean seriously when some one says a Neo Nazi is the same as an atheist. you gotta think is this person capable of understanding simple concepts.

    They are really in need of an education on simple things. A debate with such uneducated ignorant people is a waste of time.

  140. @Bigstick
    If I were to give you the name of a group, would you admit that you were wrong or would you simply look for every excuse in the book to deny it? One of the groups were from Switzerland, but I can’t remember the name since it’s been years since I had my argument with them. I’m sure if you did the proper research you’d find out yourself. Or maybe you don’t really want to find out?

  141. @MoQ
    I think you need to go back and what I said one more time. But just concentrate a little better this time. :-/

  142. Kareem:

    That’s what I thought. You got nothing.

    Moq:

    Your right. I know.

  143. Laylah didnt compare women to meat n dogs.

  144. She gv a metaphor. Moq, you are confused with a lot of things. You n bstick are controlling n telling us Muslims n the religious how we should live n perceive life. In your shallow minds, only your way is right, only atheists are rational n intelligent while the rest of us are irrelevant. Look up REAL history, Soviet Union for one,Albania another. No need to even look into history, just look at American Atheists Association and their ‘crusade’ to rid America of religion.

  145. No she did not compare women to meat and dogs.

    She compared women to meat and men to dogs.

    Yes she did!

  146. Moq, as usual when one is out of worthy argument, one resorts to name calling and make sweeping insults ok others intellect. I am neither confused nor imcapable of knowing history. But i assume i hv touched a sore spot to hv u n bstick resort to insults n name calling n questioning my intellect. Alas, that has always been the card played by extreme atheists, trumping the opponents intelligence. Petty.

  147. So how has that American Atheist Association crusade been going? How many American religious deaths recently in the name of Atheism?

    Now how many deaths recently in the name of Islam?

    HMMMM…………

  148. Pls bstick, u are confused by Laylah’s metaphor on the situation at the market in Riyadh. Don’t make it as if she actually implied women are meat n men are dogs because she didn’t and many other readers saw through your petty attack on her and called u outvfor that.

  149. Mrs. B:

    The fact that she even went there and made such a comparison was deplorable given the imam in Australia’s same metaphor on women and men. This is after some teenager girls were brutally raped by muslims and that was his statement. In other words, what do you expect when they are not islamically dressed. They get raped.

    Same metaphor for the same reason. What do you expect if you dress in a manner that is not islamic. You get harassed, vilified or raped. Same thing. Total unacceptable to most people.

    However, I see you are okay with the whole of the argument. Again, I am amazed by the fact that some women are their own worst enemies.

  150. This post wasn’t about Abandoned Children????

  151. Do Atheist say that these children are zina kids? Nope!!! Do these men use their religion as an excuse to use women? You bet!!
    I have never had an atheist insult me or say that my child was better off without me for the act of premarital sex .

  152. I think people are confusing issues. People of faith and Atheists alike are capable of being rational and intelligent. And both groups of people are capable of being ignorant and intolerant and caught up in violent “group-think”. There are historical example of all these things. You hear the same thing, “those weren’t REAL Christians”, or “those weren’t REAL Atheists”. I think whatever a person believes-or doesn’t- they owe it to humanity as a whole to be tolerant. Tolerance is the issue.

  153. Tolerance is the issue. Amin Sandy!

  154. @sandy
    I agree with you 150%. Hate and violence exist in all groups, religious and nonreligious alike. The only ones to think otherwise are the naive. Even if every oneshared the same beliefs, we would find other reasons to subjugate and kill one another, find other reasons to hate. It’s the nature of mankind. But hey, can’t fault some for dreaming, can we?

  155. @Bigstick
    Patience doesn’t seem to be one of your virtues, does it? I told you the run in I had with this group was years ago. So I don’t remember the name of the group. Just give me some time, as I have other matters to attend in my life. Also, I sure your an intelligent man, you might want to do some research for yourself, it’s not that diffic.ult you know

  156. sandy – you are sooo right! I think it was mahatma gandhi who said an eye for an eye will make the world go blind.

  157. @Sandy,

    I agree that ignorance is not limited to the religious. However, you cannot ignore the fact that religions have codified ignorance and hatred into their books and rules.

    Sorry there is no way to water this down. Abrahamic religions come with Dogma. When it comes to the subject of women and sex, their dogma are radical and sever with women at the receiving end of unfair treatment.

    Surely some religious, such as yourself can see beyond the teachings of these evil books. That is because of your own goodness.However, most do not!!!

  158. Please take further discussions about atheism to the DEBATE page.

    Thanks you – American Bedu

  159. Kareem

    You say: I agree with you 150%. Hate and violence exist in all groups, religious and nonreligious alike.

    The problem of hate and violence existing everywhere, in all people and groups, is minor compared to when it is embedded in an ideology. When an ideology openly disparages other groups or promotes discrimination against them, it is evil. I am talking islam, in case you don’t know.

    What is worse is that 99.9% of Muslims are dishonest about this. They pretend that the Quran and hadith are about peace and goodwill. They refuse to admit that the teachings of their god and prophet are responsible for the hate, discrimination and violence practiced by Muslims against non-Muslims. This is why there is no hope of change.

    Incredibly, most Muslims seem to believe that the lack of human rights and freedoms in Islamic societies, or the harsh treatment of women and non-Muslims, have nothing to do with their religion.

    While the Quran does have a few words about orphans, there is not much about children and their treatment. Given that the Quran says that woman (not just wives) are a field to plow (2:223) why is it surprising that these children should be ignored and abandoned.

  160. Mrs Bawazir

    Here is a good article for you…

    http://www.thenutgraph.com/acknowledging-failures-in-religion/

    and from Malaysia, too

    (but nothing about this topic…)

    J

  161. I enjoyed that article, Jay! Thanks for sharing.

    I liked this:

    “If we intend to engage one another in a truthful and fruitful conversation, we need to acknowledge the failures evident from the history of our religious traditions. We must move away from the childish romantic legends of perfect virtue and infallibility. Otherwise we end up always in the futile activity of protecting our own turf, or justifying our collective religious neuroses.”

  162. Jay,

    Thx for sharing this insightful article. The following caught my eye and was right on:

    Official Islam in Malaysia at present seems incapable of engaging in this conversation of truth. Some Muslim commentators have said that the recent fatwa issue, and indeed all Islamic matters, should be left to Muslims, and non-Muslims should not comment on them. Their argument is that fatwa do not affect non-Muslims, and therefore should not be questioned by them.

    When a fatwa reinforces a version of Islam that is reactionary and intolerant, then it does affect non-Muslims. The policing of morals, and the arrogation of religious authority by just one small elite group, can result in a kind of spiritual pride that affects all relationships in the community we call Malaysia.

    It is no great leap to go from telling Shia Muslims in Malaysia they cannot practise their faith, to telling a Muslim who wishes to be a Buddhist or Hindu that she has no such freedom. Intolerance creeps, and religious violence does not just come at the point of a gun.

  163. I’m not defending what he did whatsoever, but let’s be fare! watch Jerry Springs! If you think it’s fake, look around and see how many kids without fathers in the US! Let’s try to solve the issue not to blame the whole for a person’s mistakes.

    I do feel bad about those lovely kids!The embassy should do its job for this issue.

  164. I just want to mention that this ‘abandoning’ behaviour is not exclusive to Saudi men alone. Other Khaleegy (Emirati, Kuwaiti, Qatari) men have this mentality too. While in UAE I encountered a few women who were married with Emiratis (Arab also). One had the fairytale wedding, and they have two lovely children. He cheated with the house-keeper, and now they are in the process of divorce. In 8 months, he has not seen his children or given them a penny for financial support! And this woman is an Arab muslim woman. Anyway, just wanted to say that this trend applies to all non-Khaleegy women (including Muslim women from countries outside the Gulf).

    Even if he can marry you and promise you the world, expect anything (ex: a secret 2nd wife, or finding out you are the 3rd or 4th wife!).

    Do not think for a second that having a child will secure your future with any man. If you want a child, that is great, but be prepared to raise it alone…because tragically, one cannot rely on anyone. If I get pregnant with my Saudi, I am fully prepared to keep it and raise it alone. Call me selfish, but I am financially and emotionally prepared for whatever happens.

  165. Good for you Escortdiary… as the people mentioned before this blog is talking about Saudis even if this is not just a Saudi behavior.

  166. @Kareem:

    Okay I have been patient but still nothing. When are you going to provide the information.

    Also I am the type that if I am going to stand on it I will provide the source but I am not going to look for something you stand on when you cannot back it up.

    In other words, show me the information.

    Patiently waiting………and waiting……………..and waiting……………………….and ……………waiting.

  167. Jay, not sure why you provided tht article exclusively for me but I’m sure you had your own reasons. Although the part about forced conversions by Muslims in Spain was an absolute fabrication.

    http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/HistoryJewishPersecution/

    Muslim countries were the most natural places of refuge for Marranos seeking to live openly as Jews, for they were the archenemies of the Christians, with Spain and Portugal being particularly hated. Morocco had already become a haven of refuge for both Jews and Conversos at the end of the 14th century, but many more Jews and Marranos were attracted to the Ottoman Empire at the end of the 15th century and during the 16th. Sultan Bayazid II (Bajazet II; 1481–1512) mocked King Ferdinand for impoverishing Spain and enriching the Ottoman Empire through his expulsion of the Jews. In the 16th century, numerous cities in the Ottoman Empire had Jewish settlements, among them Cairo, Jerusalem, Safed, Damascus, Constantinople with some 50,000 Jews, and Salonika where the population of the Marranos exceeded that of the other Jews and the non-Jews as well.

    Another http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1535671,00.html

  168. Mrs. B

    Those sites are useless. Now on the Conservapedia I would suggestion you read the talk back part as the person who counter this article provided excellent points.

    Next, on the matter of Russia/Marxism….. might I suggest you read The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism by Bertrand Russell.

    His was a brilliant man who live in the time and provided an excellent insight to the issue.

  169. On the contrare,those sites provide insight ok fundamentalist atheists behavior n ego.VERY insightful.

  170. And i really don’t need to respond to you since my last few links pretty mucy sums up the fundamentalist tht is you .did you really take a site tht quotes Richard Dawkins to support his arguments?i rest my case.

  171. Mrs. B:

    Happy days. You rest your case. I am the big bad. Happy now? Let’s hope so. :roll:

  172. Well,you have a good day,i am happy but not for these arguments.i am happy because my baby can fully navigate her ‘cruising’ in her walker.although my ankles aren’t so joyous ;)

  173. I am an ex- Gov employee and mother:

    Firstly, its a tragedy that this has become an epidemic among families of all cultures and socioeconomic backgrounds throughout the globe. However, the marriage laws in KSA are counter productive and families live in denial all for the sake of pride. They break families and bonds that often go on to shape who that child will become later in life. Not all of these children are from unmarried couples. Family politics and a broken legal system between the US and KSA need to be dealt with out in the open! These men lack what is called a SPINE and many are cowards! They are capable of making that decision they must be held to it!
    However, there are the few who are backed into a corner by their families and are threatened and shamed by their families if they do not break ties with the mother. If you understood Saudi mentality you would appreciate my point. Its a sad fact that many disregard what Allah says in the Quran all for the sake of culture which in its self is a tragedy! Its the worst feeling being told my parents can never know about us or our kids (as if we are doing something dishonorable.) Or being told by your inlaw that I do not care about you nor your heart ..all of you are dead to us. Sometimes the same people that you want to acknowledge your child exists are the same people whom make you wish that they never knew either of you existed.

    Not all Saudi families are bad or disgusting in that way. Its a valid concern for wanting the grandparents to have knowledge of their grandchildren so that they too could share the family bond but think before you leap.

    My advice to many of these mothers stay strong, never show weakness ,investigate, investigate, investigate, don’t back down but do fight for your rights. If a man says I will marry you but my parents can never know or I will tell them later , run like hell!!

    My love and prayers to anyone in this situation or who has gone through it.

  174. Good day!
    I’m delightful to know such blog that address children abandoned by their Saudi father. I am one of the many mother of these innocent angels..I had work in one of the biggest government hospital in Riyadh fro 4 years..Unfortunately, I had relationship with a Saudi man who made me believed that he’s in love with me from the very first day he laid his eyes on me..I heard so many devastating stories about Saudi man regarding their attitudes towards foreign women..especially Asian. And that they are bound to marry a Saudi woman with the same tribe..I was very cautious with him..for many times I asked if he was already engaged..but he was very consistent with his answer that he is a single man and not engaged..To make it short, we had a blissful relationship..a monogamous with pure intent of loving each other..I myself took the risk of even seeing him outside..Until, one day I got pregnant..But his view regarding my pregnancy was to terminate it with his reason that he can’t be with the baby..Although he said that he loved the baby but he doesn’t have any choice to keep it..I stand for what I believed was right, I kept the baby..I went home to my country since we both knew we’ll be in big trouble if anyone caught regarding my pregnancy out of wedlock..He respected my wished to keep the baby and promised to support me financially..But with the condition of not telling anybody in our working place the truth why I can’t go back to my work..Suddenly, I can’t contact him anymore..He never answered my emails..and for sure he changed his number..I tried to search for him in his working place but he’s on leave. But just to know that he’s in Madrid, Spain for honeymoon..Yes! he got married..

    I was in despair to be in this situation..being jobless and raising a child on my own..Glad that I have a very supportive family which loved and accepted the baby unconditionally..How come he was so heartless to abandoned such a lovely child..My family wants to file complain against him but I don’t know anything about the laws and legal proceedings in regard of this matter. It would be a great help if anyone can give any advice how can i resolve my problem..Hoping to hear from all of u soon..Best regards!

  175. Hi loversinRiyadh,

    If you can contact abandoned.saudi.childrens@gmail.com there will be someone who can help you am sure about it because as you am a mother of one of this angels.

  176. I am pregent by a Saudi and he was a international student . I live in Canada Ottawa .. What are the steps to make him pay child support even when he is back in Saudi Arabia ? Is there even laws in Canada for this type of things?

  177. @Josee of feb,27 and all
    This is the beauty of the Freedom of all actions,enjoy and donn’t care for the result. You had your nice time but if you want to give his sperm back to him,it does not seem to be possible.
    I am sorry what happened but I would say you never thought before you did it.
    May God bless you.

  178. Josee, I am very sorry for your situation. This man is a piece of sh*t, he had his fun and he doesn’t give a damn about you and your baby.
    No, there are no rules or regulations which will force this louse to pay for his child.
    He is very safe in Saudi Arabia for the danger of paying for maintenance. His family would not at all be interested in a child fathered by their golden boy with a ”western slut” for that is what they will think of you.
    You are on your own.
    If you know his full family name you might be able to force him to part with a lump sum by threatening to make his antics public.
    Visiting the website and getting advice from the other women there might be your best option.

    Sami here gives you a nice example of the Middle eastern view on western women. You were stupid and sinful for having sex, you are damaged goods and worthless. It’s your own problem. And as we don’t hide our face and actually talk to men we western women are all whores anyway.
    And as we have freedom Saudi men have the freedom to lie to you and have sex with you and misuse the freedom and it’s your own problem for being free.

  179. @Sami,
    I would recommend that you learn more about Western culture and its values so you may be less ethnocentric and more understanding of differences in culture. Western people (including women) are no more or less moral than women in other countries. However, cultural values are different. May God bless you with understanding and insight into the true values of Western cultures and societies.

    Western women cover less than women in other countries because they have less to hide. They do not have to fear being raped while walking down the street. The majority of men avert their eyes and respect them no matter what they are wearing. Here, our body is not treated as a sex object and temptation for men but rather our body is the house that holds the soul, a creation of God. It is something that simply is. Why should we need to hide what is apparent and sacred?

    We also trust the person we are with. Living with someone in western culture is the same as marrying them in other parts of the world. Please do not view pregnant Western women as people who had fun, but rather as people who were divorced from their Saudi for whatever reason. That is the closest comparison I can make. Do you not have any divorced women in your family? In your country? (I don’t need an answer to this, just wanted you to think about it.)

    Please be careful with your words, or one day karma may come back to haunt you. God is just, but also merciful.

  180. Nice comment Strange One!
    Sami, these women and the children were abandoned and lied to by Saudi men. You may think that is freedom but what it really means is that Saudi men have no dignity or honor, they such nasty little lowlifes that the Western women have no idea what they are dealing with. As western men on the whole are a bit more honest.
    You only explained a bit of the mindset which makes Saudi men such pigs and louses, dressed in hypocrisy. And this versus the women, who were generous, honest and loyal in their love and devotion.
    Who are the lowlifes here?

  181. I am the “abandoned child”

    and I spent too much time reading these comments. I am disgusted by the discussions going on within these posts. What are you accomplishing by speculation and finger pointing?
    What is accomplished by calling my father a dog or calling my mother a whore?

    What has happened has happened. and I AM what happened. I am the consequence, dealing with the consequences. You get into a big discussion on the morality of past actions instead of recognizing that the result of their actions is a human being who bears the weight of their debated origin.

    You are not accomplishing anything except causing me great irritation. Go choke on some McDonalds or kabsa. There are evils in any culture or society, and I never felt belonging to either one of you.

    Think about the consequences of your actions and how they can define another beings life.

    sincerely,
    your abandoned hopeless mutt child

  182. Best comment hands down! Most of the people here are just pretending to care. When in reality, they are just using it as an excuse to engage in a name calling war, not really caring how the children themselves feel.

    You can try to blame this on male behavior, religious upbringing or what ever. The matter if the fact is, abandoned children who aren’t receiving their rights exist everywhere.

  183. kareem:

    Interesting. Has it every occurred to you that all the things you hold blameless are actually things that contribute to the abandon children and their non-rights?

  184. @bigstick: There are only two that should share the blame in these situations. For they are the ones who did not think of the potential consequences of their actions.

  185. @Josee
    All my sympathies with you. I wonder you are living in Canada and you must know the Law of Canada?

  186. Kareem:

    Yes but that also doesn’t preclude the other items blameless. However here is what I purpose.

    If women intend on getting involved they need to require the man to use a condom and that the women use Birth Control or insert spermicide. As this is the minimal way not to get pregnant. If a man refuses to use a condom kick him to the curb unless he agrees to marry you then do the next item. If a man chooses not to use a condom then he is a damn fool who should expect to be a father with all the responsibilities and no society should let him off the hook.

    Next, if a woman decides she wants to marry a Saudi or middle eastern man then they should ensure that they have an escrow account set up in the country with a large amount of the monies which is then transferred to the woman upon him leaving the family or entering into polygamy. They should also require that monies be contributed on a monthly basis thus they have a safety net. Otherwise stay away at all costs as it seems they leave the women even if they are married with nothing but debt and children that they no longer want.

    The only other thing would require government to government interaction where an agreement is set up that any monies recieved by the father a portion of the monies goes to the mother for his children and it is transferred to the country where his children reside. This actually might be a better solution as it ensures that men will think twice about destructive behaviors where they get off free of consequences but leaves a woman to take consequences that should also be shared with the other half of the problem. Remember the victim in this case is the child and neither the mother nor father should be let off the hook…….EVER. So if the man wants to play then he is required to pay and pay and pay otherwise leave it in his pants, wrap it before playing or face the consequences of his actions as well.

  187. Bigstick, in Islam the woman is not entitled to maintenance after divorce, and no chance a woman would get that as her right in Saudi Arabia.
    This is why Saudi women demand a huge dowry, as this is the only money they can ever expect.
    One reason Saudi men like to marry foreign women is that they don’t always realize this and waive the dowry/mahr (money for sexual pleasure) they are entitled to.

    A Saudi woman will also try to weasel as much money as possible out of her husband and hide it away. The collecting of a nest egg is vital because a woman has very little chance of supporting herself, jobs are rare and less well paid for women, a woman is in any case always a minor, inheritance is unfair towards women, and they do not get maintenance in case of divorce, which a man can do on a whim, without any court or system or protection for the wife.
    And once ”deflowered” a woman’s market value on selling herself in marriage is very low. The only real cash a woman can get is on her first marriage with intact hymen.

  188. AA:

    Yes… this is again why women need to have an escrow account before entering into relations with a follower of Islam.

    This religion even insults and reduces men to merely instinctual and irresponsible erections. I get insulted repeatedly by this religion and it’s pathetic revelation of my sex and how men are inable to use our head(other than that portion of the penis) or be responsible for our actions. Islam calls a woman a uterus and a man a walking erection bend on attacking a uterus and its revelations continues to insult those who are more than the sum of their sexual organs.

    Pathetic excuse for ink.

  189. I think you are overdoing it Bigstick. I say nothing more than that women have no rights according to the rules of Islam and Saudi Arabia. But that doesn’t mean that every islamic man is a douche bag of course.
    I only want to say that if something goes wrong women have absolutely no protection in Islam. Only when men want to give her protection despite the rules. And that will happen too.

    But for women who get involved with Saudi men they have nothing to expect.
    And really, use a condom. Or don’t have sex.

  190. @Afk: They dowry is not some sort of trade off for sexual pleasure. It is a kinda insurance in case the man either dies or divorces her for no reason.

    Once a woman has been married, it often difficult for her to remarry. As most men, sadly, think it’s important to have a virgin. The dower is like a protection for the woman. There is a certain amount of wisdom behind a man giving a woman a dowery. As I’m you know, men don’t really have a problem if getting married again after having been divorced.

    Furthermore, divorce is highly discouraged in Islam, and is only recommended as a last resort.

  191. Kareem, all four schools of islamic Jurisprudence are very clear on this: Mahr is money for sexual pleasure which the man has to pay to the woman.

    I suggest you look it up.

  192. AA:

    Well an escrow account would help if married wouldn’t it? After all…..it is a dowry of sorts. Can you determine which one is a douche bag or not? If you cannot determine it then there is no harm is setting up this system as it is a form of protection. Islamically it is required anyway to use her in such a manner, so it should be fine.

    Kareem a dowry is just that a trade off for sexual pleasure as Islam really states that you should pay money for the use of her uterus. Then islamic societies ensures limited ability for her to have public assess and ability to make money thus ensuring such a system stays in place and she is at the mercy of an unjust and enslaving religious/cultural construct.

  193. @Afke: Well I don’t really follow any of the four schools. Nor do I really trust the words of mist present day scholars.

    I’m sure you don’t know that according to the teachings of the prophet Muhammad (saw), dowry for a woman doesn’t necessarily need to be money or gold. And little advice, don’t go on about mentioning the for schools and what not when trying to talk about Islam. Not all Muslims follow the four madhabs.

  194. @bigstick: Women are capable of working and supporting themselves don’t you? And also, in Islam, the father is in charge of taking the children and caring for them, even in the event of a divorce.

    So the mother needn’t receive any child support anyway. As it is the father who’ s actually supposed handle caring for the children.

  195. Kareem:

    Funny in so many ways.

    Yes I work as does my wife but we are partners in everything including child rearing.

  196. @bigstick: Isn’t that the way it should be, or am I missing something here?

    There is something I’d like to know by the way……..In the event that a court gave child custody to the father, would the mother be entitled to pay child support? And if no, then why not?

  197. I was married 20 years to my wonderful arab/muslim wannabe husband…upon divorce I received nothing personally and only received child support to the tune of about $400 for our 5 children that I had full custody of for about 6 months. Since then, 6 years, not a single penny. When I returned to the courts to force him to pay, the judge didn’t even want to know. Obviously he was ticked off someone had the nerve to give me full custody of our children…so I needed nothing more from the ex.

  198. Kareem:

    Yes mothers are to pay child suport in the USA. No free pass, in addition visitation and periods that the parent who doesn’t keep the child primarily is also set by the court…if the parents cannot come to an agreement of course. The courts tries to ensure that the child has access to both parents. In addition, which ever parent has access to medical is required to carry; if both parents have medical both must carry it, if not the parents must apply for medical through the state systems to ensure the children are covered.

    Hope this answers some of your questions. Child support is also based on formulas and the amount award is dictated by the gross amount earned by each parent.

    I believe Coolred lived in Bahrain in her situation. Correct me if I am wrong Coolred.

  199. bigstick..yes…23 lovely years. Ahem.

  200. @Coolred – I really think your life and how you survived through all you went through would be an excellent book or movie.

    On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 7:09 PM, American Bedu

  201. American Bedu..I get that a lot. When asked who would play me I always say Kathy Bates as played in Misery. LOL

  202. Goodness I was frightened to death of Kathy Bates because of her psychotic persona in Misery.

  203. Exactly…that was me right around the end of our marriage. He nailed himself into his office at one point. Ahem…just saying.

  204. You are wrong. Money is not paid to the bride as a trade to use her uterus. Please study more.

  205. @Aafke-Art
    You are wrong. ITS NOT PAID TO USE HER UTERUS . The uterus of a bride is not that cheap. Study more.

  206. No maher is money paid by the man to the woman for sexual pleasure.
    Of course a woman also has to bear children for the man who are his property and that of his family, not hers.
    But mahr is specifically payment for sex.
    Read up on Islamic jurisprudence.
    All four schools of Islam agree on this.

  207. Do you think Muslim/ Arabs would put such a high price on virginity then treat it so cheaply when marriage is being discussed?

  208. @Aafke
    You are again wrong. Can you quote any text from Jurisprudence supporting that Maher is paid for sex pleasure.
    Please try to learn more. Thanks

  209. You would think that with so many blogs warning women against relationships with Saudi men, more women would grow a brain and reject their advances but for some reason there is always a fresh supply of willing victims who never came across the right article and the right blog.

    That reminds me of Amina from “She Made the Greatest Sacrifice of All”, who “found that the Internet gave her a headache” and who wouldn’t talk to her parents about her Saudi boyfriend because “she felt they had no idea how to raise a child and perhaps would have been better off never having her”. It is disturbing to see how a little misunderstanding over your parents’ feelings for you can make you take a leap in the dark with the most tragic consequences imaginable.

    Honestly, if I was naïve or misinformed enough to get pregnant with the child of a Saudi man and abortion wasn’t an option, I would have never tried to reestablish a relationship with him or his family in Saudi Arabia. I would have ended the relationship and hidden the pregnancy from him, in fact. It takes an ounce of intelligence to realize that if the Saudi father isn’t interested, this gives the child the priceless chance to grow up as a normal person in a far more civilized world than KSA. Under my careful guidance, my handsome son would have become a lovely, open-minded, intelligent, respectful man who doesn’t view women as sex objects OR my beautiful daughter would have never seen the world through a veil and the world would be her oyster!

    These women don’t even realize how lucky they are that their Saudi boyfriends will not look back. They should thank their lucky stars, in fact. Their children are already loved by mothers, grandmothers and grandfathers in the West. A strong, smart, selfless, independent woman would have raised her child alone. Who on earth needs a set of Saudi relations? There are simple things far more important than child support, one of which is the freedom to decide your own life. A momentary weakness on the mother’s part may lead to a lifetime in hell for the child.

  210. Sami, I have read the texts, google it and read for yourself. Do some friggin’ work yourself!
    I posted this stuff here years before. I have better things to do than spoon feed you your own friggin’ religion!

    I am so tired of lazy ignorant believers who can’t even use Google, but are all up and shouting whenever their nasty man-made religion says something they don;t happen to like but which they are too lazy and/or ignorant to look up for themselves.

    Google and read for yourself that in Islamic jurisprudence Mahr is money for sex.

    And in the rest of the marriage a husband provides a dwelling food and clothes for the wife and in return she has to give sexual favors on demand and produce children which will be his not hers.

    And yes, that means that Islam denigrates women to the level of a badly paid mistress and breeding cow.
    Luckily many humans who just happen to be Muslim see their union quite differently, but on the religious and sharia level, that’s what women are.

  211. @Kareem,

    “And little advice, don’t go on about mentioning the for schools and what not when trying to talk about Islam. Not all Muslims follow the four madhabs.”

    Are you serious? This is a discussion about Islamic law. The 4 madhabs are very applicable to the discussion and how Islam behaves. If you are a Sunni Muslim and refer to a court on issues of marriage or child custody and the court wants to rule using Islamic rules, the judge will refer to one of the 4 Madhabs for specifics. So it does not matter what you think, it is how Islam rules are applied.

    Now if you are Shiiat (do not know if you are or not) a different process applies. Shiiat have similar rules to Sunni Muslims, but the process to codify them is different. Shiiat rely on a structure producing a hierarchy of scholars. At the top of the hierarchy are the Ayotolahs, who hold the final rulings. In modern day countries like Iran, they even went further and created a top Ayotolah, who can over rule all others when needed.

    It is a myth and a method to muddy the argument for Muslims too keep referring to how the prophet lives as a guide and too divert arguments. The scholars of Islam have studied all of that and developed Islamic rulings on most issues (especially when it pertains to family laws). Those rulings have been accepted as the method for developing Islamic based laws. Your argument is moot when it comes too law.

    If you are just referring to your personal preferences and how you live your life, then you are free to do so.

  212. Salam Sami,

    Yes, you should google mahr yourself. But here is a short and sweet answer:

    The purpose of the mahr, as explained by and agreed to by the four madhabs, is quite clear. It is a payment from a man to a women; payment in full for the future sexual relations (nikah) he will have with her. This is not to be confused with dowry which is entirely a different subject matter altogether.

    This is illustrated by the requirement for a mahr in temporary “marriages”, the statements of Prophet Muhammad saw, and the fact that a mahr cannot be taken back (except under extenuating circumstances), because the man has availed himself of the service for which it was payment.

    The counter claim that it is simply a demonstrative token of his ability to financially support his wife does not hold up to scrutiny once all of the evidence is examined. Even the Qur’an al-Hakeem alone makes it clear that this is incorrect.

  213. @ Aafke-Art
    Thank you. I understand GOOGLE is your MASTER. Sorry this is not the TOPIC>

  214. @MoQ: You do have some knowledge concerning different Islamic groups, but nit as much as you think you do.

  215. sami, right, so you don’t want to read.
    There are books as well you know?
    I suggested Google because it is easier and you seem to be very lazy and uninformed about your own religion. But by all means, go to a library (large space with lots of books which you can read or borrow) and find out for yourself that all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree on the fact that mahr is money for sex, which the man has to pay to the woman.

  216. @kareem,

    “You do have some knowledge concerning different Islamic groups, but nit as much as you think you do.”

    And how do you arrive to that conclusion?

  217. I just read your last post.

  218. Which you cannot dispute except with an Ad Hominem :)

  219. @MoQ: Lol! I just love the way you atheist love to throw “Ad Hominem” in just about everything. Even when it’s not true. If anyone here is guilty of such, it is you and your little group of friends here. But, ok. :-)

  220. When all your argument is throwing terms like “you do not know what you are talking about” or “you atheists”, etc. that is what they call it. The fallacy of “Ad Hominem”. I think I am describing the situation fairly accurately. And notice, I only attack your argument not you personally. I wish you learn to do the same.

    Now, like others here which I warned before, if you make this personal, I will give you some robe and forgive you a few times, but I will treat you in the same manner if you do not control it.

  221. Kareem, have you thought about it that the reason non-theists ”throw around” the accusation that theists and superstitionists always use ad-hominem, (and strawman) fallacies, is maybe because that’s exactly what they do?

    And you might want to think about why.
    Maybe the use of logical fallacies is all superstitionists have..
    Maybe superstitionists don’t have any facts to support their arguments….

  222. MoQ:

    I had no idea you had friends especially a little group of them. :twisted:

    You should introduce them to the blog. Could prove interesting. :D

  223. @Umm al Quwain
    I am surprised what you are saying without any references from Jurisprudence or Quran e Kareem. Google is neither a Book of Jurisprudence nor Quran (NAUZOBILLAH)
    Fear Allah my dear.

  224. @Aafke-Art
    Please name the book?

  225. Moq if you bothered to scroll up a bit per this topic u will see that you initiated the personal attack on both Kareem n I when we didn’t even engage any conversation with u. You sought us out now you’re crying victim about personal attacks? please. you’ve used the same modus operandi numerous times especially with me. Umm Al Quwain is correct. The maher is a symbolic measure taken to prove the husbands ability to handle financial responsibilities but it is up to the bride to determine whether she is high maintenance or otherwise and if the husband wants a diva he got one.

  226. @bigstick1,

    “I had no idea you had friends especially a little group of them.”

    I have 100’s of invisible friends vs Kareem’s 1. Mine are just more polite and peaceful.

  227. Kareem you have to know that it is perfectly OK to say ‘these Muslims” or “you Muslims” or anything along that line even “naive converts” but don’t you dare venture on to call “you atheist” as that is a fallacy of ad hominem. It’s just a matter of Muslims must censor the way they talk whereas Moq and his friends here can call you anything they want and that’s considered rational argument. think of it as if you’re arguing with your kids.

  228. @Mrs B,

    I gave you the same warning as i gave Kareem a long time ago. I told you I believed you’re just a naive person, so I let many of your comments pass. However, you continued to get nastier, generalizing and throwing names around. Of course I treat you with the same treatment as you treat others. You even follow people around this blog across multiple articles and start fights.

    Again, I will not let you do that anymore.

    You are an under educated person, who constantly argues without facts. Your knowledge of your own religion and its history are elementary, yet you argue with confidence. You call people racist when they actually defend your rights to hold your own believes.

    In every argument here, I focus on the actual argument. But of the other person start generalizing like calling Atheists Nazis (as in the case of Kareem), I will challenge his lack of knowledge on the topic. If you call me an Islamophobe (as in your case MrsB) I will not treat you kindly. Especially, since I gave you many chances to behave.

    Now you can follow me around to the next article and start another fight if you like. Just realize, I will not let you get away with such BS anymore.

  229. Here we go again with the patronizing persona you have that makes your charm. warning? i remind you again Moq, I don’t take orders kindly. As for he rest of your comments, you are condescending and thrive on belittling those who don’t share your thoughts as a former Muslim. You accuse people of not knowing Islam but you failed to understand (due to feeling of superior) that bot everyone shares your extremist view of Islam, not everyone takes In Ishaq as a valid source for Islam, that not everyone must share your thoughts. Because people in the past have engaged with you and have felt the condescending tone you use and calling people undeteducated or lack historical facts or even less sane, you have no rights to whine about personal attack. you are the last person to talk about that. you do it on everyone who crosses your path and frankly, that is BS to me. Spare me the lecture about how I attack people on their comments. if you don’t have the capability to see a racist (in the case of RC accusing all women married to Arabs as stupid) then that is your problem but don’t expect me to keep hold of my tongue. I will engage with people who can’t respect my or other Muslims decision to believe in what they believe and that includes the patronize in you!

  230. Since you felt entitled to give me a warning Moq, let me tell you that your patronizing and mocking tone is no longer tolerated by me. You want to call me under educated then by all means do if that makes your sore ego soothen. You accuse others if using strawman’s argument but you failed to realized of being guilty at it. It is a failing on your part when you don’t see eye to eye with people on Islam or any other subject matter, you then resort to use the egotistical approach. you think I am naive? apparently not so naive as i can see right through you! I warn you I have little respect for anyone who uses that approach.

  231. Moq:

    http://www.godchecker.com/

    Dude, I have been looking through some of your known acquiesces and just can’t place my finger on your closest buddies. Hey, what the heck invite them all……..I mean seriously if you leave one God/Goddess out who knows what it might do in their fury……..nothing, more nothing, and further nothing. Now that would just be damn boring. :D

  232. “I don’t take orders kindly.”

    Where did I give you an order. I am telling of the consequences of your actions. You want to play this finger pointing game then you whine :)

    “not everyone takes In Ishaq as a valid source for Islam”

    The funny part is in all of my recent comments to you, I never quoted you 1 Ibn Ishaq Hadith. It was Bukhari, Muslim and others and every time, I specifically told you the source. So there is no way you could have misunderstood, which means you’re now resorting to lying.

    “you have no rights to whine about personal attack. you are the last person to talk about that”

    I wrote 1000’s of comments here. Show me where I ever said Muslims do not have a right to believe. Try even to show me 1 comment I made where I generalized about anything against Muslims. I always argue against the religion not the people. For your info religions are ideologies. Like any set of ideas, they are open for debate and to be debunked. The fact that you cannot separate yourself as a person from your ideology is your personal problem not mine.

  233. “apparently not so naive as i can see right through you!”

    You misunderstood my comment to Bigstick1, it is my friends that are invisible not me

  234. I may be a mother and can be sweet and kind when suited. But with people who acts the way you do, I have no choice but to retaliate. Last reminder, if you choose to belittle people’s opinion or information and act smug I will call you out. As per the Nazi Atheist comment from Kareem, as one wise lady here said it is too easy to say ‘oh that’s not a real atheist’ to free you clique formulae but fact is there has been historical and present accounts of atrocities carried out by atheist under the banner of No God. Whether they call themselves communists or nazis etc that doesn’t absolve the desire to trample on all religion under the banner of No God. Just as some religious people use religion as a political tool to stamp on freedom, the same can be applied by non theists. You don’t like my comment? you have the option to disagree but don’t you dare accuse me of being unwise.

  235. Moq:

    Better be careful ………she is DARING you. Stopping shaking in your boots……….okay………

    Alright…….it might help if you stopped laughing first then the shaking in your boots might go away.

    I just want you to know that I recently have been visited and may even be,…………….. could it be …………..yes, yes I might possibly be………… being controlled by a little imp…….

    Moq, you need to keep your friends (particular the imp) in check…..look what it has made me do…………

    :twisted:

  236. you’re an imp since i first knew u bigstick :-)

    if i made you laugh then that is good, at least a different kind of entertainment then the usual kinds you get.

  237. @Mrs B,

    So lets see, can you define what an atheist is?

    I am calling you out just like you say you can call me out :).

    Further, did you know that Nazis were Christians including their leader. Or is that another historic fact you did not learn. Just saying, I am just amazed of your lack of simple education. Seriously, read an article or 2 about Nazis and learn some basics.

    By the way I do not blame Christianity for Nazism as it was a national movement, that just happened to be carried out by Christians.

    Same for Communist Russia as an example. The communists are an ideology driven group. Has nothing to do with the none believe in God.

    Again, you can really benefit from some reading to sort through these things.

    So, what else would you like to entertain us with MrsB.

  238. Moq you cannot on one hand assume you respect people’s need to believe while on the other hand persistently admonish people for believing and use every opportunity to convince people that there is no God. You have you beliefs I have mine. If I said I believe God exist that is mine and I am not forcing you to agree.

  239. Do you like knock knock jokes? I ve got a few. But hold on. need to attend to my daughter who just got up from nap. Why must she insist on waking up so early only to fall asleep two hours later!

  240. @Bigstick1,

    “Hey, what the heck invite them all”

    Ever since Zeus sentenced Atlas to carry the weight of heaven and earth on his shoulders, all the Gods have retired and are partying at a far away universe. We are stuck with Atlas who is as Grumpy as MrsB :)

  241. You know I found this very interesting on Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini

    In fact there appears to be a large amount of information on this alliance. Amazing…….after reading Mrs. B’s information I would have never……….never thought that …… :D

  242. @MrsB,

    “you cannot on one hand assume you respect people’s need to believe while on the other hand persistently admonish people for believing and use every opportunity to convince people that there is no God.”

    You still do not get it. You can believe what you want. The tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny, Claus, Zeus, Allah, etc. I specifically stated my argument against the interference of religion in 3 areas. I will repeat them for you again 1) Science 2) Law 3) Politics. Until religions refrain from such interference, I will point their faults. If you argue for religion in those areas, expect for your ideas to be challenged. If you are so thin skinned that and cannot handle someone arguing about your ideology and take it personally, then consider staying out of debates.

    I do not admonish you for believing. However, when you argue with lack of knowledge on a topic, I will let you know of that fact. Learn the difference please.

    Now for those knock knock jokes, I expect at least one of them has bigstick in it :)

  243. Thank you, thank you, and thank you. I know I am great……..Yes……There is no need to cement my GREATNESS in a knock knock joke……….

    Just knowing you would dedicate such an endeavor fills me with pride….. :D

    Again thank you……….no, no, stop with the accolades……..my head will swell and I will not be able to make it through a door.

    Now I need to go I have business to attend to……….

    Cheers. ;)

  244. Oh Moq, I do have one knock knock joke with bigstick in it but….he might get offended!

    Now as for the part about you respecting people’s belief, I dare say you are still rather accomodating in that sense but you are treading dangerously into the other direction by consistently telling us religious that God doesnt exist. As for Bigstick, I have lost hope on him to stop yelling there is no God. He just can’t :-(

  245. Now as for me being ‘grumpy’ (nice one btw) try and have your choice constantly scrutinized and ridiculed and being told off for beliving and let us see how you fare. Oh but we all mourn in diffrerent ways…I grump…you become smug ;-)

  246. ” I dare say you are still rather accomodating in that sense but you are treading dangerously into the other direction by consistently telling us religious that God doesnt exist. ”

    Hmmm, have you thought that may be just may be, the above sentence indicates that you the one who does not want to allow other to have a different believe.

    Note you tell others that God exists, how is that different than none believers telling the opposite. I hope you think about that, I think you may discover something about yourself.

  247. Moq, I have never gone up to an atheist here or in real life and insist on God’s existance. But you yourself can see that no matter what topic AB puts up, it would be used as a chance to further the idea that God doesnt exist and Islam is evil. As I recollect, the only instances I talked about God is when addressing another Muslim for example when I told Anon Saudi Wife that Allah is enough for us as we both believe the same thing. Show me one instant when I ever tell people God exist just out of the blue. But I can show you many examples of the other extreme. Now when you tell me I have elementary info about my religion, perhaps perhaps my info is the opposite of your views?

  248. @MrsB,

    ” I have never gone up to an atheist here or in real life and insist on God’s existance.”

    And when did I just start a conversation with you and say God does not exist. Actually, the fact of what you believe about God is inconsequential in any of my arguments. If you look back at my comments, I argue against the rules of religion, its history, its cast of human characters, etc.

    Actually, if my recollection is correct, the only time I question the existence of a God is when a faithful brings her up.

    Since, you continue making stuff up like this. I will challenge you again to find where I start conversations with “there is no God” argument.

  249. @MsB: Yeah, it’s kind of funny actually. They seem to love crying “Ad Hominem” in just about every situation. When in fact, they are the ones guilty of such.

    I’ve had atheist come on certain social networks calling me names, cursing me, and so forth. Just because I had something supporting Islam on my profile. And the all seem to end up crying “Ad Hominem”, even though it isn’t true. It like arguing with children on the play ground. -_-

  250. ” Now when you tell me I have elementary info about my religion, perhaps perhaps my info is the opposite of your views?”

    No it is not because you have a different view, that is a given. It is because, you are not knowledgeable about its history, its rules, your holy book, the Hadith, the Tafsir, the study of Figh, etc. This is a fact and I am merely pointing it out. You have exhibited this lack of knowledge many times. That in its own is not an issue. The issue is how you argue aggressively when you are not even knowledgeable about the topic at hand.

    One addition to the previous comment. I would not be offended if you say God exists 100 times a day. Ask yourself why you get so offended by Bigstick as an example saying the opposite. This is one of the issues religious people need to deal with as it makes you sound unaccepting of others. The simple fact that others express their opinion becomes an issue for you. Talk about feeling entitled!!!

  251. Moq, i didnt say you were the guilty one in that sense. I was informing you that a lot of people here are shoving their disbelieve down everone’s throat…Kareem, Allah give you patience in handling your problems on the social network. You don’t have to tell me about that, believe me I have seen nasty comments about Islam on a Youtube video about a children’s song titled Mother. Even a children songisn’t spared.

  252. @kareem,

    Find one place where I lump Muslims as a group and stereotype them. You will not find it in 1000’s of comments I made. However, you have stereotyped atheists a few times in one thread.

    Sounds like the type of behavior, we would expect from a bigoted person.

    I think you should look up the definition of Ad Hominem, because you cannot seem to stop doing it. It is hilarious!!

  253. @MoQ: Lol! I didn’t call atheist Nazis. What I said was that I have had run ins with atheist who were Nazis. But you seem to have a way with twisting the words of others.

    How about this-You’re right, and I’m wrong. And I’m sorry that I even think that I have a chance of winning an argument with you. No matter how concrete the evidence may be.

    Happy now? :)

  254. But Moq, you dont get the point. Bigstick claims he is fed up with the religious shoving their God down his throat (I havent seen that here) but he is doing the same thing. As for entitlement…why would anybody insist on talking to deaf ears? It is beyond the feeling of entitlement. It is just damn irritating, like a mosquito that needs to be slapped.

  255. Mrs. B:

    Not quite correct. I am tired of the religious shoving their religious doctrines down the throats iof others n the form of laws, poliitics, and societial construct as it is an alleged mandate from their God.

    Try to get that part correct will you.

  256. @kareem,

    “How about this-You’re right, and I’m wrong.”

    Great, that does it. Go in peace now!!!

    @Mrs B,

    ” Bigstick claims he is fed up with the religious shoving their God down his throat (I havent seen that here) but he is doing the same thing. ”

    There are characters here that actually do that. A good example is Sami, which I consider a troll with nothing to add. I just stop reading, because what he says is not worth reading. You can always make the choice not to engage if it bugs you that much.

  257. @MoQ: So, you are happy now? Good! ^^

    @MsB. Thanks sister. You can’t imagine how many obscene messages a I had to delete from my account. It really becomes tiresome. :-/

  258. I slap mosquitos, Moq. Although there are occasion whereby I ignore them.

  259. Kareem, oh I can imagine ;-)

  260. @kareem,

    Not just now. I am usually happy, thank you.

    Also, good try on the reverse, I give the win so I win thingy. Only an immature person frames debates in the form of winning and losing, instead of actually trying to present a point of view. Come to think of it I have not seen a point of view from you. Rather a lot of pointless dribble. So yes, putting a stop to that will safe time.

  261. Somehow reading the comments of the last days i strongly had the feeling this is a kindergarden— or kabaret— debate… You can argue another thousand years the one beleaving in god and the ateist will never win… Because the existance or not existance of god(s) is (still now) not to be proved…. ;)

  262. By the way it is quiet entertaining ;)

  263. Salam Mrs B,

    I think, given your gift of excellent mediocre debating skills and low-fo knowledge about Islam, you must start your own blog, titled “Mommy Dearest”. It will be a big hit in blogsphere. Trust moi!

  264. Mrs. B…why is it believers feel their beliefs need to be respected? No they don’t…especially when they either make no sense or harm others in some way. You also do not have a right to not be offended when someone tears your beliefs apart with facts etc.. Religion does not get a free pass from scrutiny and facts just because truth hurts the feelings of believers. If you can’t take the heat…stay out of…well you know the saying.

  265. I agree, there is no reasons to respect peoples beliefs. Not if they are based on books full of immoralities and mistakes.
    We can respect people for what kind of person they are. But not for their beliefs. There are a lot of people whom I like despite their beliefs.

    Now I am disappointed in the discussion.
    Some valid comments and arguments were made, and then they are answered with personal attacks and childish finger pointing and people playing the victim-card.

    And really, if you notice you are ill-informed about a subject under discussion you should read up on it, on the internet, in a library, or buy a book.
    But it is getting tiring to have people who claim to be pious believers in religion A, B or C and not knowing half of it.
    And not wanting to read their own books, their own scholars.
    It’s fine if you are happy to be ignorant about your religion, but don’t come here and argue with other people who do know.
    And then attack them personally instead of their arguments, and then start playing the victim card.

  266. Btw…it is not very hard to discern who has more than basic knowledge about Islam and its history from comments freely given and arguments (such as they are) put forth. If you are so willing to put your level of ignorance out there as an attempt to argue for your side (whatever that side is) then be prepared to be called on it by those who have read and researched more than one side of the issue.

    Most Muslims I have met in my life have only ever bothered to learn the basics…have only ever bothered to read the pro side of Islam (the warm and mushy feeling stuff) and have never ventured into territory that might upset their little feel good cart. Of course I can’t finger point too much because that was me way back in the day…but in my defense I simply did not have access to anything other than what the govt of Bahrain allowed to be available….the mushy feel good side of Islam. The side that grabs and holds onto newby converts and has them convinced they have found a winner….without further need to read and investigate. (again…me)

    Of course, newbies can have a bit of leeway as they are generally only being exposed to the pro side by Muslims…but born Muslims (so to speak) have no excuse not to know their religion inside and out. If you are going to follow it, live it, defend it, and kill for it (in some instances) why haven’t you bothered at the very least to learn about it..all of it?

    When Muslims get on here all self righteous and demand proof..or a hadith..or Sunnah or some supporting evidence for a claim made by a nonMuslim..my feeling is..if you have truly attempted to learn about your religion and done all your research and bothered yourself to read whatever is available (by other Muslims no less…don’t always make the claim that hateful nonMuslims are the ones making these claims, Islam has it’s own history written by it’s own followers…no need to embellish or lie about it)…then why are you attempting to defend something you are clearly ignorant about?

    I rarely engage Muslims anymore on-line because if they have chosen to wear blinkers and remain ignorant…but demand respect and the right to not be offended..then to hell with them. It’s not even a debate any more but a soap box fest of “you are being mean and hateful for not respecting my beliefs and an Islamaphobe for pointing out the less desirable aspects of my chosen religion”. Aspects, mind you, that are available out there (not even just online but in actual Islamic texts) for anyone with the desire to learn more.

    If you are comfortable with your level of ignorance concerning your religion then live long and peaceful…but that does not mean we are comfortable and willing to let that ignorance go by without a challenge. After all, it’s we…nonMuslims, female Muslims in many cases etc. that are forced to live with and suffer from the ignorance Muslims have about Islam.

    As the saying goes, don’t raise your voice…improve your argument. Improve it with reading, research, and a well thought out counter argument that doesn’t come down too, poor me, you are just being mean. Get over your pity party and come back with a real argument or go play in the sandbox with all the other children and let the grown ups discuss this serious subject.

    Now…let the free for all commence. ;)

  267. What I’d like to know is, how is all this talk of religion relevant to this topic?
    Any topic here is swiftly turned into a bashing contest. It almost leads me to believe that is what this blog was actually created for. And it’s not difficult to pick out the instigators of these bashing contest.

    One person recently wrote, this all seems like a bunch of children arguing on a playground. I couldn’t agree more.

  268. @ Kareem
    You are right and I agree with you.People go beyond BlogRules.

  269. Coolred, excellent comment.

    kareem and sami, I know you want to get out of this discussion because you can’t defend your arguments due to ignorance. However, if a thread has got hundreds of comments, it’s natural to have the discussion turn to other subjects.

  270. @Afke: If when we do provide proof to back up our argu……. -_-

    Hold a second – You’re trying to troll us, aren’t you?

  271. Kareem…what proof have you provided to support your claims other than to claim others don’t have knowledge?

  272. Neither of you can or will answer and argument with a counterargument. You go personal or change the subject.
    You are loving this because now you can go all out personal. Without having to bother about pesky stuff, like facts, reality, information and intelligent debate.

    Neither of you has been to a library or bookstore, or even Google, haven’t you?
    I mean to look up Islamic jurisprudence and find out for yourself that all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence define mahr as money for sex. Thereby denigrating women into something which looks like prostitution.
    These are the facts.
    Come back when you’ve found out this is the case and apologize to me.

  273. If you buy an industrial product like a pizza etc. in the supermarket . normally nobody reads the small letters to know what its in it, because you trust the minister of health and the industry would not harm you…Btw for the small letters you need very good glasses…,

    Actually there is not even the need beeing able to read, because of these little pictures,

    With any kind of religion it is the same…. everything is already cooked you just have to eat it—-
    No questions please—- everything is fine and healthy— you have the garantee of eternaty———-

  274. @kareem,

    I think teh latest flurry of comments started with Sami insulting freedoms and women, then finishing his comment with “God Bless”

    @Coolred, I missed your rants. Loved the last one!!!

  275. Fast food is like any kind of religion … it looks nice and appertizing…. but dont look what is in it………

    Most of all unhealthy stuff…..

  276. @Colored: I will not trolled.

  277. MoQ…I have been without constant internet access the past few months so, unless I was willing to type out lengthy comments on my phone (I was not), I had to keep comments short and “sweet”. Most of the time I just don’t bother.

    Net is back on…so game on. LOL

  278. Angelika, that’s why I don’t eat pizza’s, fast food, or any kind of artifact food. I don’t trust the FDA and I know what’s in it and I can read the labels without glasses. ;)

    I also like to see you back Coolred, I enjoy your ability to cut through bullsh*t like a hot knife through butter.

  279. Angelika, that was a wonderful metaphor! :)

  280. Aafke if i am honest sometime a big M is fine , but the problem is there are some ingrediance in ….. that makes you . to want more …..
    so you are getting addicted……

  281. @MrsB,

    “As for he rest of your comments, you are condescending and thrive on belittling those who don’t share your thoughts as a former Muslim.”

    With all the comments, I forgot to correct you on that. I was always a skeptic as far back as I can remember. So I am not a former anything. It is just an assumption on your part.

  282. Let’s not dribble with semantics Moq. I read your interview and was informed of your Islamic upbringing so that was why I ‘assume’ you were a former Muslim. If you say you were always a skeptic, then alright.

    Now I am starting to think, how do you all come up with the notion that Muslims know ONLY the basics about their religion? Is it because we refuse to accept the rubbish and extremist parts that you contantly throw at us? Give for example, the misconceptions that Islam preaches the killings of non believers. You chose to use extremist actions and rip up some parts of the Quran to show your case. We do not accept that and gave our take. Does that equate to you being the more informed and us Muslms oblivious?

    Um Quwain, thanks but I ve beaten you to that one. Already have a blog titled almost the same as the one you have suggested.

  283. Aafke, there was no valid nor intelligent comments to begin with hence the childish debate going back and forth. You say that mahr is a payment for sex. How is thateven remotely intelligent? According to you, nikah means sex. Again, how is that valid? I couter argue that nikah or in the English language, marriage, in Islam is a sacred social contract between a bride and groom. You would also know that both the bride and groom can stipulate conditions in their marriage contract. Is marriage/nikah all about sex to you? Or is it a relationship whereby both party enter with a responsibility to a life of mutual love, kindness, piety (scratch that if you dont like it) and social duties? Now regarding the mahr, that is a gift and I am sorry if you think the bride doesnt deserve a gift but you would also have to know that this mahr can be given immediatly to thebride or deferrred to a later time After marriage, after they had sex etc. So that is why your comment is silly to equate nikah to prostituituon. Prostitutes demands money immediatly only for sex. Mahr on the other hand canbe delayed if agreed and is a token of commitment by thehusband.

  284. And Aafke, with due respect, you state the absence of God as fact while I believe there is God and that is fact for me. Noooo, it doesnt have to be measured by science. There are many things that doesnt require science’s explaination.for example, my immense deep love to my child, how does science explain that. There are mothers out there who dislikes their children.

    P.s I think you owe us an apology not the othe way round concerning Islamic jurisprudence and mahr.

  285. @MrsB,

    “Let’s not dribble with semantics Moq.”

    This is why no discussion ever goes well with you. Again, you argue from ignorance. By definition, I know about my own believes more than you do. Let me be clear, I never believed in any deity including yours. Hence I am not an ex-Muslim. The dribble is what you write consistently.

    I explained to you before why you do not know about your religion. It is not about disagreement. Look it up again, it is only a few comments above.

    You also lack of the ability to understand clear arguments that other write to you. You just demonstrated that in your last comment.

    ” Give for example, the misconceptions that Islam preaches the killings of non believers. You chose to use extremist actions and rip up some parts of the Quran to show your case. We do not accept that and gave our take. Does that equate to you being the more informed and us Muslms oblivious?”

    It is our interpretation of the evidence. You arriving at a different conclusion does not make you misinformed, it just makes your analysis flawed since you are presented with over whelming evidence. Another reason it could be that your judgment is tainted and you never see it since you have already arrived at the conclusion before reading the evidence.

    What makes you misinformed, is you never heard of many of the issues debated here. Evidence from hadith as an example. You have a standard answer for those. That is Ibn Ishaq is not reliable, even though the Hadith is from Bukhari.

    Again MrsB ignorance is not a sin. There are many topics in which I have elementary knowledge (example Geology). If the topic here turns into a discussion about volcanic rock formations, you will not see me debate it.

    What is an issue, is arguing when you do not know your subject. Worse you get insulted and aggressive when others point out your lack of facts.

    On the topic about Islam preaches the killing of none believers, of course you are misinformed. For your information even in peace time Islam does not recognize al Mushekoon (none Monotheist). That means Islamically it is Hallal to spill the blood of any Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, etc. (more than half of the population of the world). The fact that Muslims do not do it, fits with my contention that Muslims in general are good people who are more humane than their religion.

  286. “There are many things that doesnt require science’s explaination.for example, my immense deep love to my child, how does science explain that.”

    But science actually explains that. Look it up sometimes, it is a fascinating topic.

  287. but born Muslims (so to speak) have no excuse not to know their religion inside and out. If you are going to follow it, live it, defend it, and kill for it (in some instances) why haven’t you bothered at the very least to learn about it..all of it?

    Coolred, the problem with this statement is that you took the liberty of assuming we havent learn our religion. The problem is you considered the story of Asma bint Marwan as a fact while we dont agree of the event even taking place due to highly unreliable source (a favorite source among Islam critics). This goes with all the other allegations that you guys throw at us, and when we did counter argue, you are still adamant that we do no know our history yada yada. Hey, we do not accept questionable sources. Also, we intelligently look at the chronology of the Quran instead of just butchering it up to make a case. And we certainly dont take websites like wikiislam and jihadwatch as valid sources (you know who you are Mr And Mrs Guilty). That is the problem with Islam critics, under the pretext of conveying the truth, they hide all the ‘mushy’ parts about Islam and bring up garbage like the Asma case. How are we then going to respect each other if you resort to lies and half baked truths?

    Concerning the part about playing victim or finger pointing, the blog rule clearly stated no protelyzing and that includes trying to convince Muslims their religion is wrong and atheism is right. If the self proclaim intelligents cannot be intelligent enough to understand that rule, then some fingers are going to point it out!

  288. On the topic about Islam preaches the killing of none believers, of course you are misinformed. For your information even in peace time Islam does not recognize al Mushekoon (none Monotheist). That means Islamically it is Hallal to spill the blood of any Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, etc. (more than half of the population of the world). The fact that Muslims do not do it, fits with my contention that Muslims in general are good people who are more humane than their religion.

    This is again where you are misinformed Moq. Yes Islam does not recognize none Monotheist, Islam’s basic teaching is to believe in one God so it would be contradictory to assume otherwise. BUT, Islamically it is haram to kill those who do not threaten your livelihood etc so unless those none monotheist believers took up arms against us, we are Islamically taught to live side by side harmoniously. You cannot assume to be more knowlegable but at the same time come up with that.

  289. Moq let me take the liberty of educating you a little bit on the last allegation you have made. If you would analyze the legislation of Islam and its attitudes towards non Muslims, you will see that there is tolerance. This fact is not purported by me, it was also claimed by non Muslims such as Will Durrant who wrote “‘At the time of the Umayyad caliphate, the people of the covenant, Christians, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Sabians, all enjoyed degree of tolerance that we do not find even today in Christian countries. They were free to practice the rituals of their religion and their churches and temples were preserved. They enjoyed autonomy in that they were subject to the religious laws of the scholars and judges.’

    Islam not only demands the rights of religious freedom, it even go on so far as to warn those who abuses this freedom. A Sahih hadith by Abu Dawood ” the prophet stated “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” Are you surprised at the lack of respect I have for your information when you throw dribbles such as you did?

  290. Mohammed threw all other idols out of the kaba and forbid the worshipping of other religions in Mecca (semantically, we can argue openly worshipping) yet you claim he said you can’t take anything from them against heir free will? Rather an oxymoron.

    And I did say, it is easy to tell who does not know their religion by the comments they leave in defense of it…I did not name names or the level of intelligence concerning any particular person on this blog.

    Also, nobody promotes atheism…we just counter the argument that a god exists. Period. We also argue against misinformation believers have about their own religion…which is rather comical at times. Believe what you will…but believe based on facts.

  291. I realize I am hogging the discussion but since a lot of people are calling out on me…just needed to add one more thing Aafke. According to fiqh, as explained by the four madhab, marriage is to allow legal sexual relation between a man and woman and is further elaborated by establishing the duties and rights of the two people, the rights and duties being interdependent. Now compare this to prostitution, a client pays a hooker a sum of money, has sex then leaves. Kindly apologies…

  292. AA:

    Yes, Yes you do need to apologize…the nikah/mahr is not about prostitution.

    It is about sexual/gender slavery.

  293. Believe based on facts that you have approved you mean?
    Firstly, you ignored my other examples of Islamic fair treatment under Umayyad. The Prophets foremost task in Madinah was to establish law and order to give equal rights to Jews and Christians. Never has any head of a religion demonstrated such religious tolerance. If you studied the Prophet’s charter in sixth hijrah, you would see that the charter includes the protection of Christians, their churches etc. christian women married to muslim men enjoyed their own religion! Many great example can be seen if you look up history. Now the Kaabah was built by Prophet Ibrahim and his son as a monotheistic house of worship. That will answer your question why the prophet decided to rededicate Kaabah back to its intended course which is monotheistic worship. However, you are eliminating all the other prime examples of religious tolerance demonstrated by the Prophet.

  294. In the days of the Prophet, the Muslims gave protection to forbidden articles like liquor which belonged to Jews and Christians. When a Jew committed adultery, the Prophet asked him to read his Jewish scripture and made him accept the punishment mentioned therein.

    Is that what you meant by the prophet forbidding other religion Coolred? You should look up verse 22:40 before anything.

  295. “Moq let me take the liberty of educating you a little bit on the last allegation you have made.”

    This gotta be interesting.

    “non Muslims such as Will Durrant who wrote “‘At the time of the Umayyad caliphate, the people of the covenant, Christians, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Sabians, all enjoyed degree of tolerance that we do not find even today in Christian countries.”

    I was hoping you actually knew the history of Umayyad Dynasty, but your comment seems to indicate that you stumbled on an article online and just moved on to claim you know history.

    Since you insist, let’s see if you know some of these facts:

    1) Did you now the Umayyad caliphs actually were responsible for the start of the blood shed between Sunnah and Shiiat. Did you know that your rightly guided Caliph Ali opposed them, since they strayed from Islamic principles? After Ali’s death they even killed your own prophet’s grand son and sent an army to put down a revolt of Muslims in Madina. Hence, they were not even tolerant of Muslims, since their rule was about power not Islam.

    2) Did you know that Umayyad’s first caliph is Muawyah, the sun of Abu Sufian, who was the ruler of Mecca at the time of the prophet. Muawyah took the first opportunity to regain power at the time of Ali to regain his family’s rule back from the zealous Muslims and move the Capital to Damascus rather than Medina.

    3) Did you know that the Umayyad dynasty actually adopted administrative and rules from the Byzantine. The interest was not to farther Islamic rules or principles, but rather to strengthen the power of the Caliph. Islam was useful for the Umayyads caliphas as it helps raise armies for invading territories. For building a strong administrative rule and for the dynasty to prosper the Umyadd’s knew Christians and other remaining people in the area had the skills needed from the fallen Byzantine empire. The Ummyad caliphs were not pious Muslims, but were interested in richness and the good life for them selves. The Umyayyads were actually secular minded in their rule. This is not so surprising by the way, since their heritage is from their patriarch Abu Sufian who had similar rule in Mecca.

    I can go on, but I hope this gives you a little to think about and research more. It is really a good sign they you’re actually reading for a change!!!

    By the way regarding your hadith, I never claimed there are no nice hadiths or nice surah’s in the Qurran. I can also site you very nice peaceful speeches by Sadam Hussain. However, those were said in the times when he wanted to sound reasonable and peaceful. Same for your prophet. When he wanted to be hostile the intolerant hadiths were recorded. I already sited you many from BUKHARI, MUSLIM and ABU DAWOOD (i.e. capitals are not for shouting, but to make the names stick out, since you have a standard answer that we give you Ibn Ishaq Hadith).

    Let me explain how evidence works by example. If we have a man who was arrested for beating his wife and there were plenty of witnesses to the fact. Do we call him innocent, because some other witness saw him give her a nice hug 2 days earlier. Your nice hadith has the same credibility/relevance as the second witness, as far as evidence is concerned.

  296. Bigstick, if a Muslim made a common of that nature (dribbling without backup) it would be scrutinize but youcan certainly get away with it ;-)

  297. Oh Moq you are getting way ahead of yourself. Yes I know very well about the Umayyad dynasty. As usual, you are oversimplyfying the history (as in the case of banu quraza) in this case the shia sunni struggle, that had no Islamic concerns rather as you mentioned political struggle for who to stay in power. Yes i am fully aware of Muawiyah being the first caliph as i am also aware that he establish the monarchy system. What is your point?

  298. “The Prophets foremost task in Madinah was to establish law and order to give equal rights to Jews and Christians. ”

    Ok right, if you consider kicking all Jews form the city is giving them equal rights, then you are correct. As a matter of a fact, he even changed his mind later and decided they should be kicked out of all Arabia. But of course they were like every one else around, they were hostile and mean to the poor Muslims, so they should convert, be killed or find some other place to live. Leaving their wealth and property behind while they flee, would be a nice gesture to make up for all the mean things they did.

    By the way there were no Christian tribes in the area (they lived farther north in Byzantine territory). The Christians present were individuals, who eventually saw the light of Islam and converted by choice of course ;)

  299. Why are you avoiding or ignoring my arguments and throw them down by 1) assuming the worst on my credibility 2) bringing up new topics instead of acknowledging my earlier arguments? Now in the case of a husband abusing his wife, I am sure I know the way evidence work. But it is typical of you to take it upon yourslf to educate me.

    I have sited an example by a non Muslim expert who can attest to the tolerance preached by Islam. Do you dislike the Umayyad example? Let me give some other exmples.

    1) Caliph Umar refused to pray in a church in Jerusalem even after being requested by the patriach in fear of his followers taking that as a cue to claim the church as a Muslim house of worship.

    2) Under khulafa Al Rashidin, Muslims and Christians used to pray in the same place.

    3) under Muqladid, the Governer of Anbr was a Christian.

    4) the Prophet when dealing with Jews would tell the Jews to read his scripture and apply it in cases of adultery etc.

    5) in the Prophet’s time, forbidden articles like alcohol that belonged to the Christians and Jews would be protected as their rights.

    The problem with your metaphor (abusive husband that hugs) is that Islam has coherently encourage religious tolerance in hadith and Quran. Yes Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood, not Moq.

  300. ” Yes I know very well about the Umayyad dynasty. As usual, you are oversimplyfying the history”

    So what do you want me to do, write you the book so I do not risk over simplifying it for you. I gave you the pertinent points to debunk your argument that they were tolerant because of Islam (which by the way was even more of an over simplification of the facts)

    Same for Banu Quryzah example. I used them to debunk your argument at the time that the prophet did not take slaves or kill prisoners. I did that sufficiently with references. The point was made. and I wrote pages and pages to explain the story for you. Your reply to that example was basically, they crossed the prophet so of course they can be enslaved and their prisoners killed *especially of the guy riding on the donkey approve of it). Which was a confirmation of my point. Mission accomplished.

  301. Not fair, you are making up stories. My comment got lost. Hold on. It was long.

  302. @MrsB, I never make up stories. That is what you do. Like the lie I caught you on just a few comments up, when you kept saying I gave you hadiths from Ibn Ishaq on the earlier thread. Usually I would call that a mistake, but you repeated that many times and I corrected you each time. So I am left with one conclusion, you have no problem of fabricating things to divert from accepting evidence that was properly sourced.

  303. Sorry, your comment got gobbled up. It is late here, I am going to call it a night. I look for it tomorrow. Have a good day where you are.

  304. For those who are too ignorant and/or lazy to look it up, with book notes so that in the event of a sudden unexpected surge of intellectual inquiry you can go to a library (large space with lots of books) and look it up for yourselves:

    Author of the Hanafi Schools: Mahr is “the money, which is obligatory on the husband in ikd al-nikah (the marriage contract) for manafi’ al-bid’ (sexual pleasure).
    (See ibn al-Hamam, Sharih Fath al-Qadeer, vol. 3, p. 304, Arabic version).

    The Hanbali School of jurisprudence defines mahr as “the money paid by the husband for the purpose of nikah (marriage/sex. In Arabic Nikah only means ”marriage” when one is talking about the marriage contract, in all other uses of the word it means ”sex” or ”penetration”).
    (See ibn Kadamah, Al-Mughni, vol. 6, p. 679, Arabic version).

    The Malike and Shafi’i Schools define the mahr as “the money due to the future wife in return for [the husband’s] haqq al-isstimta’ (sexual pleasure) in the marriage contract”.
    (See al-Hattab Muhammad bin Abdel Rahman al-Mughrabi, Mawahib al-Jalil li-Sharh Mukhtassar Khalil, vol. 5, p. 172-Maliki Jurisprudence).
    For Shafi’i School see al-Nawawi, Kitab al-Majmu’, vol. 18 p. 605).

    All these references are cited by Sheikh Mahmud Muhammad al-Sheikh, Al-Mahr fi Al-Islam bayna al-madi wal-hadir, published by al-Maktaba al-Assriyya liltibaa’a wal nashr, Beirut, Lebanon, 2003, Arabic version.

    The Maliki and Shafi’i Schools of jurisprudence regard the mahr as “the money paid for the future wife in return for sexual pleasure is an integral part of the Islamic marriage contract and its source is prescribed in the Qur’an.
    Sura al-Nissaa reads the following:
    “Fa ma isstamta’tum bihi minhunn fa aatoohunna ujoorahunna” (So for that pleasure which you have enjoyed from them, give them their prescribed compensation). Qur’an 4: 25

  305. I have read about the fiqh regarding marriage millions of time before getting married and I re read again today. I will find a way to upload the photo of me and my book of fiqh just to avoid being wrongly accused of being lazy to do my ‘research’. perhaps tmrw. now i hv to drive to the store.

  306. I cant say I am surprised that you took the time to tediously describe what a library is Aafke but failed to elaborate mahr and nikah in its real sense. What does the Quran say about mahr? “And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, Take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.” (4:4). Clearly even the tone of the Quran stipulates mahr as a gift, NOT price as in buying and selling (prostituition). It is not possible to equate mahr with payment for sex. Do you know mahr does not even have to be monetary? Do you know that if agreed, the mahr can be given later into marriage? Long after sex! Which prostitute accepts that? And which prostitute has the rights to raise his clients children and live together with him through thick or thin? Really you did not even realize that by equating mahr to payment of a prostitute, you have just called all of us Muslim wives as hookers. I am aware of the four madhabs but what you have failed to present is the four madhabs explaination of marriage, the rights and responsibilities and the mutual love that must be present in an Islamic marriage aka nikah.

  307. MrsB, don’t blame me. Take this up with the scholars of your religion and tell them they’ve got it wrong and that they need to change their jurisprudence.

  308. @Mrs B
    I agree with you. You can not make them uderstand as they do not want to gain knowledge.

  309. sami, did you read the bits I posted? About the Islamic jurisprudence being very clear that Mahr is money for sexual pleasure?
    What is your problem?
    (except that you don’t like that aspect of your chosen religion)

  310. Stating the very obvious, this discussion has clearly gone circular. It is the 21st century values clashing against the 7th century cave mentality.

    While admittedly I have but perfunctory knowledge about Mohammedanizm, one thing is obvious to me, though.
    That while one side is presenting their case with facts and logic in a calm/cool/collected manner, the other side is basically parroting a 7th century plagiarized book and the sayings of a 7th century whirling dervish nomad; with extremist zeal, fervor, and cyber jehad.

    ‘Nuff said ….

    “The clash of civilizations will dominate global politics. The fault lines between civilizations will be the battle lines of the future” — Samuel Huntington

    http://www.polsci.wvu.edu/faculty/hauser/ps103/readings/huntingtonclashofcivilizationsforaffsummer93.pdf

  311. @Craig: Mohammedanizm, what in the world is that?!

  312. Mrs. B…you gave reasons why Mohammed “rededicated” the kaba back to god…but again…he did not ask anyones opinion about it. He took without asking..he destroyed without asking…he decided a course of action and did not ask non Muslims if his course of action (destroying their idols and forbidding anything but Muslims or Islam in Arabia) was ok with them.

    As for facts…the ones you don’t seem to care for..why is it when anything good is written about Mohammed then it’s acceptable and presented as proof concerning his character and actions, but if anything bad was written about him, it’s untrustworthy and obvious lies? How can you possibly tell the difference? You were not there….you can only rely on what was written. It seems to escape your mind that Arab/Muslims of that time..and those that came after…had no problem writing about the good, the bad, and the dirty concerning Mohammed and Islam…in their opinion there was no bad or dirty if Mohammed did it….so why hide it?

    And I agree with Moq on this..just because he did some good things…doesn’t mean we forget he also did some bad things…some things that a true prophet (whatever that is) would never consider doing….and no god (if there was one) would ask him to do.

  313. @Craig: Mohammedanizm, what in the world is that?!

    Mohammedanizm = Firstly, Worship of Mohammed. Secondly, Worship of Hadees. Thirdly, Worship of Koran. And Then Lastly, Worship of Allah.

  314. @Craig: But we Muslims don’t worship Muhammad ( pbuh). We worship Allah alone. :)

  315. Kareem, you could have fooled me.
    Then why all the mayhem and murder when some foreigner in an obscure country makes a cartoon about the holy Mo?

  316. And what about all the other things worshiped by Muslims? The Kaaba, the black goddess stone, the holy hymen? Every copy of the Quran, no matter how cheaply printed…

  317. @Craig Boleslawsky
    You are not only wise but silly too.

  318. Aafke-Art, problem is that I do not pay for sex. You believe it you pay.

  319. @Afke: Perhapse they are ignorant of Islams rules?
    About myself, I highly oppose those actions of those so-Muslims who take to violence in such situations.
    Those trheatsms who take to the street chanting death threats to people drawing a few silly pictures-they are only giving them the reaction they want. Every time a Muslims reacts in such a way, they have made those people’s day.

    The artis that draw those picture are some of the biggiest trolls on the face of this earth. And the so-called Muslims who idoticly fall in to their trap, the biggist threat to Islam.

  320. sami, How is it possible you still do not understand: I am not the one who says that in an Islamic marriage the man pays for sex. It’s your religious leaders, your scholars, your Islamic jurisprudence who say that Mahr is money for sex.

    I don’t like your religion, so couldn’t care less.
    You however do claim to like your religion. So I understand you have a problem with your religion when it says men pay women for sex to make a marriage valid.
    I do understand and good for you for not liking it.

    But the blame should go where it belongs: with your religion and the leaders of your religion who make it what it is. Write to them. Don’t whine here. Do something about it! Tell these dudes they have it wrong and they are immoral for writing jurisprudence and claiming mahr is money for sex. Don’t whine here and don’t blame me.

  321. @Afke: I’m sorry sister, but we don’t worship any of those things. The actions of some Muslims may cause it to appear that way, but you couldn’t be more wrong. :)

  322. ”Some” Muslims? I think whole mobs went on a rampage and started smashing stuff and killing people. And where is this famous but elusive ”moderate muslim majority”? You never see them on the street (in the middle east and Muslim countries) protesting against 9-11, child marriage, death fatwas for cartoonists and writers from other countries…
    We never see widespread Muslim outrage when an 80 year old geriatric buy an 8 year old girl to use for sex…
    No no, Kareem, as long as we don’t see Muslims in all countries, and especially in Muslim countries, stand up against wickedness done under the guise and protection of their religion I say we can blame the Muslim community for it.

    And that includes you. You’re still here aren’t you?
    Wasting your time.
    You’re not out there writing angry letters to your religious leaders.
    Nooo, you’re still whining here.
    Complaining to a Pastafarian that you don’t like what your religious law says about mahr being money for sex doesn’t cut it. It’s useless.
    You don’t like this religious law, you don’t like that Islamic marriage smells a bit like a prostitution deal you go and do something about it.
    That’s where your efforts should lie.
    In changing your islamic jurisprudence.

  323. It’s funny how when someone doesn’t agree with the missguieded actions of other Muslims, you seem to become sort of disapointed that particular subject didn’t go the way you intended it. So, react by moving to another topic and ramblingon in hopes that one does the trick. Yup, you’re definitely trolling. ^^

  324. Are you trying to get away from the fact that all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that mahr is money for sex?

  325. Aafke the problem with the post you gave about fiqh from this website http://aerinndis.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/marriage-and-money-pays-for-sex/ was that it failed to go into details about fiqh and marriage. I have extrapolate on the subject matter using fiqh and Quran.the website that you referred to in order to obtain that fiqh info (not a library) failed to explain marriage but instead was used by the author to smear Islam. Now why are you disappointed when Kareem abhor those terrorist acts? I agree with him, the basic teaching of Islam is worship of Allah alone. Listen to the shahadah, the adhan(call to pray) and look at Islamic teachings, not mob actions. The basic tenets of Islam is worship God. when someone uses mohamedization or whatever in his comment, it begs the question why is he pointing fingers at some groups for giving false info. It is shirk to appoint anyone or anything above God. if you learn Islam you would know that but if you merely took the actions of mobs from impoverished countries or watch CNN then I realize the level of Islamic knowledge you possess.
    P.s Shirk would automatically throwone out of Islam. This is not cyber jihad, just answering some misinformation.

  326. Coolred you’re right we weren’t alive during Prophet’s time and have to rely on what was written. I have explained this until i am blue in the face but you didn’t get it, ok i ll explain again. the prophet’s character can be glimpsed in the hadith , right? there are literally hundreds of thousands of hadith so how do we compare between the true and the false? by the chain of narration, by seeing its narrator etc. That is how most Muslims do it anyway. A sirah on the other hand is not hadith but a biography, it can be true it can be a lie. How to know? check with the authentic hadith and Quran, no contradictions? it passes. ok I am going to try to break away from all this mayhem because 1) let us be honest, we’re wasting time because you’re dead set that Islam is evil, and I’ll always disagree.
    2) i need to stay away from my phone and ipads etc and cleanse myself of gadget a little.
    3) my daughter is in dire need of an outing so i intend to do that starting today.

    I don’t have any problem with you Coolred and I do feel for you I swear to God I do feel for you on your nightmare of a marriage and I only wish the best for you and your children. Take care.

  327. Mrs.B

    The Quran, hadith, sira and fiqh were written at least 100 years after the made up prophet. Therefore why would anyone listen to it. Many scholars and historians who actually study the situation from a historical aspect show that the Quran has a history which means it has been tinkered with and was standardized to the best of their ability and other copies burned/destroyed that had competing or different accountings.

    This is from the Textual Criticism and Quran Manuscripts by Keith E. Small.

    “Instead of the pure autographic text-forms being perserved, what has been perserved and transimtted for the Quran is a text-form that was chosen from amidst a group of others, which was then edited and canonized at the expense of the others, and has been improved upon in order to make it conform to a desired ideal. Altoghther, the transmission of the text of the Quran in early manuscripts shows evidence of editing, control, correction, and preservation.”

    “The Quran as it is preserved today is a book providing a glimpse into many eras of the Quran develpment.”

    Now if you want to know further by all means buy the book. I have bought numerous books including the Reiliance of the Traveler (fiqh), The Quran in its Historical Context edited by Gabriel Said Reynolds, and the list goes on…. Anyway, you can go on all day long but I think the history was created due to poltical need and there is a growing number of scholars who are going down this way of thinking.

    Maybe you should try watching the Tom Holland documentary that recently was broadcasted. He is a historian as well.

    Now in regard to Durant…..kindly tell me which of the books he placed that particular quote.

    Thanks.

  328. Mrs. B….it always interesting when someone claims that I think Islam s evil. Islam is just an idea…it is nothing without believers who implement its teachings. It would no longer be a relevant idea if people would just let it die out…like so many other religions before it.

    I might also add that nothing that occurred within my disgusting marriage is the cause of me leaving Islam. I was already on the way out before I divorced…but it was do to reading and researching…not due to the actions of a piss poor excuse of a single human being. All of you that make that claim give him far too much credit. I do not and have never judged Islam by its misguided followers but by its own words and the actions of Mohammed. What more would anyone need?

    As far as the little lesson in quan, Hadith, sira etc., they all come from the same source…man…so how can anyone of them be more accurate or truthful then the other?

  329. MrsB, I paste copied from an article by Gabriel Sawma, which was the first one which came up when I Googled ”mahr/sexual pleasure”.

    And who cares where it comes from? The four schools of Islam differ on some subjects, but apparently not when it comes to mahr. In whatever form it is given, in Islamic jurisprudence it is given by the man to the woman for sexual pleasure.

    Now I do understand you, this is a disgusting way to regard the start of a marriage. but then marriage in Islam is not officially one of partnership and equality either. Individual couples may and do regard it as such, but men are allowed to have 4 wives and as many sex-slaves as they can afford. Women are allowed nothing.
    Women can be easily disgarded. Women have to go to a court to get a divorce, and in Saudi won’t get one without a huge bribe to the judge, to the husband, and they need a family to support them.
    Women are not equal to men in sharia law. Islam mistakenly regards women as deficient in intellect and religion.
    And when it goes wrong, because men are so completely favored by Islam, women and children are without protection.

    And in the case of foreign women who were duped into believing that a Saudi student was honest and honorable and they find out he is a liar, she and the child are discarded like waste. These guys don’t care, the families don’t care, the country they come from doesn’t care.

    This callousness and selfishness and disdain for the welfare of others has it’s roots in a religion which considers women and children to be property and easily disposable.

  330. @Aafke-Art
    This means that muslims pay money for sex once only in life. They can not have sex next time unless they pay Maher again and again. what is the opinion of your Google Scholar.

  331. Sami, learn to read.
    You don’t really read what other people write do you? You only want to whine like a small kid on this blog. You never answer an argument, you never respond, you only go on and on about yourself.

    This is not one scholar, this is your religion, your sharia, your problem.
    If you don’t like the idea that Islamic marriage starts with the husband paying money, or whatever else, for sex, then do something about your religion, your sharia, your scholars.
    And don’t waste time by keeping on whining without reading on a blog.

  332. @ Will Durant

    The same Will Durant, the famous historian, summed it up like this about the ruthlessness of muslim invaders of India and subsequent occupation of India, which continued for over a thousand years:

    “The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex of order and freedom, culture and peace, can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within.”

    And then there is Koenraad Elst , the German historian, who wrote this about muslim atrocities (“Negation in India”):

    “The Muslim conquests, down to the 16th century, were for the Hindus a pure struggle of life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindus skulls.

    Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the Hindu Kush, i.e. Hindu slaughter. The Bahmani sultans (1347-1480) in central India made it a rule to kill 100,000 captives in a single day, and many more on other occasions.

    The conquest of the Vijayanagar empire in 1564 left the capital plus large areas of Karnataka depopulated. And so on. As a contribution to research on the quantity of the Islamic crimes against humanity, we may mention that the Indian (subcontinent) population decreased by 80 million between 1000 (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 (end of Delhi Sultanate)” …

  333. Coolred that is why you and I will never se eye to eye on this matter. You believe Islam is the work of a man. I believe Islam is a gift from God. but it’s not a problem for me. You have your beliefs I have mine. Now I was not aware Will Durrant was online, somebody here so stupidly thought he was here and addressed her comment to him.

  334. Mrs. B…true. My eye believes in something that is provable. Mohammed had visions (seizures..whatever) and told people to write down the following. Easy enough to believe. Your eye believes in a miracle..which is unprovable…belief is based on faith. Faith is not evidence. It’s not a problem for me either…except far too many muslims take that book…no matter who the hell wrote it…and abuse it (or not..depends on your point of view) to the point that Islam instills fear and hatred…in it’s followers and non followers.

    God was so active in the world back in the day. Talking to every wandering desert dweller and what not. He seems rather silent these past 1450 plus years…even though his perfect religion is causing a boatload of problems. It seems he should take issue with that and come down and show his displeasure…after all…he flooded the world…turned Soddom and Gomorrah upside down…killed record numbers of those that displeased him…parted red seas and talked from burning bushes…the list goes on. Yet not a peep in nearly 2000 years.

    Or maybe now and then a persuasive fellah got an idea in his head to promote an idea..and idea that turned out remarkably bad but still followed by so many. I bet ole Mohammed would be surprised more than anyone that his idea took hold and lasted this long. After all..he’s no longer here to benefit from it.

  335. Mrs B, on March 6, 2013 at 6:57 pm said:i need to stay away from my phone and ipads etc and cleanse myself of gadget a little …. my daughter is in dire need of an outing so i intend to do that starting today.

    BarakAllahufeekum wa salaam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu!! Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the World; and may His blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions.

    “Today” was two days ago :)-

  336. Mrs. B:

    “Now I was not aware Will Durrant was online, somebody here so stupidly thought he was here and addressed her comment to him.”

    I think Mrs. Benazir was addressing you but by accident put Durant.

    Then you appear to have gotten aggravated that your source apparently gave a not so nice discription of Muslim/Islamic activity since inception.

    So anyway back to the aspect that I asked……please provide the name of the book written by Durant that has your quote.

    Maybe second time is a charm. :D

  337. Mrs B, on March 8, 2013 at 1:43 am said: …. I believe Islam is a gift from God.

    It is a man-made evil gift alright straight from hell, made up by Mohammed and his alter-ego Allah in the form of koran, and hadees written by Mohammed and his alter-egos the so-called “companions” while gathered around the dessert bonfire singing kumbayas to each other all day and all night long.

    Mrs. Aischa Mohammed was quite forthright when she complained to her hubby quite a few times about “how come gabriel brings in revelations conveniently in time flying in from above when you need it personally to satisfy your sexual urges/lusts, like to marry your daughter-in-law or myself when I was just a itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny-bopper six years young”.

    I think Bertrand Russell summed it up very succinctly about this man-made religion:

    “Over a billion people believe in Allah without truly knowing what Allah supposedly stands for or what he really demands of them. And the minority that do understand continue to be moslems because they have redefined their morality and ethics to fit within the teachings of Islam, which are floridly lacking in morality. They therefore redefine what is good and evil in order to fit their lives into what is preached by Islam, instead of examining Islam to see if it fits within the good life. Backwards thinking, imposed by a backward religion. Also, there is absolutely no difference between a militant moslem and a moderate moslem. The militant moslem is the person cutting the head of the infidel while the moderate moslem holds the victim’s feet ”.

  338. i hope someone can help me find my father whos abadoned me for almost 24years…

  339. My son is 34 and his father abandoned us when he found out I was pregnant and would not have an abortion. I belive he returned to SA and have had no funds to try to locate him. I sent proof of the birth and many letters to the Saudi Embassy and received no help. My son now has 3 beautfiul children of his own.

  340. I have often wondered about trying to find a lawyer who would consider filing a class lawsuit against the Saudi government on behalf of all of the American mothers whose children were abandoned by their Saudi fathers; Many of these Saudi men were students at American colleges when these preganancies occurred and the Saudi men were attending those colleges on Saudi Government scholarships.

  341. @ All
    First of all : Some people call Saudi students (Fathers) DOGS and others call them ANIMALS. What about the Mothers what you would call them. Shame for those who do not care to use nice words.
    Secondly Islamic Law and Fiqa is not applicable on the Saudis or Saudi students when they have gone back to their country. It will be waste of time and money.
    Thirdly why women marry them, when they are free to say “NO”. No body has the answer to that.
    Shame for both parties, however.

  342. @ C Todd
    May I ask you why you married him when you were free to say “NO”. Secondly why you chose to get pregnant whem you could have avoided?

  343. C. Todd,

    Sami is the resident troll who intends to upset everybody who writes against the Saudis. Do not pay attention and do not feed the troll. Some of the things he posted here in the past are a shame for his religion and sex. While Carol was still alive, she said that this blog was followed by various Saudi officials as well as the Saudi Ministry of Education. I won’t be surprised if they post insults in order to hurt and discourage the women like you from telling the truth.

    Sami,

    Maybe the Saudis who fathered children in America lied to their American girlfriends that they would marry them someday and then, true to Saudi fashion, disappeared without taking any responsibility. I don’t even expect someone like you to imagine this kind of scenario because your mental resources are too limited to reach a conclusion.

    RC

  344. I am the daughter of an Arabian man who married & returned to his country when I was 2. My mother met him while he attended college in her home town. I’m now an adult 27years old & at times I’d wonder about my father. So I’d research & finally I found information & that I have siblings. It has brought a since of peace but I still have not had contact with him. My step dad stepped up & did an amazing job raising me & I had a wonderful childhood!! It was nice to finally see photos of my biological father & his children & how much myself & my children look like them even if they don’t acknowledge us! I know that he suffers in the back of his mind knowing that he has a child that came from him in the US & even though he tried to get my mother to abort me, she did not& here I am a child of God with purpose serving The Lord! I wish the best to others abandon & to the mothers of Saudi children I say just continue to be honest with your children as my mother was with me & love them & do your best as a parent! Blessings

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