Saudi Arabia: What Should Be Done about Hamza Kashgari?

 

I debated long and hard whether to write about Saudi blogger and tweeter, Hamza Kashgari.  I had hoped that his case would have been dismissed by this point.

By way of background, Hamza Kashgari created an outcry both within and outside of Saudi Arabia for the tweets he made in reference to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Hamza Kashgari is a 23 year old Saudi who had worked at the newspaper, Al Bilad.  Kashgari considered himself a writer and a poet.  He was seen as a quiet young man with good manners who could recite the Quran from memory.  So, what happened where his actions created a fury of rile and called for his execution?

On the Prophet’s birthday Kashgari sent out three tweets over Twitter where he had an imagined conversation with the Prophet.  In this conversation, Kashgari referred to the Prophet as a rebel and revealed that while he loved some aspects of the Prophet, he hated others.  Reaction to his tweets was quick and strong.

Kashgari sent the tweets in what he described as a freedom to express himself. Close friends to Kashgari urged him to make a public apology and fearing for his safety, suggested he leave Saudi Arabia.  Ultimately, Kashgari heeded the advice of his friends.  He made a public apology and fled to Malaysia hoping that the furor his tweets incited would die down.

Instead, the clamor for his arrest and execution only escalated.  Kashgari was advised to leave Malaysia.  Arriving at the airport with plans to travel next to New Zealand, Kashgari was apprehended and turned over to Saudi officials.  The Saudi officials placed Kashgari on a return flight to Saudi Arabia where he was met and arrested at the Riyadh airport.

Now Kashgari sits in a Riyadh jail while awaiting his fate.  Most Saudi clerics want to see Kashgari punished to the fullest for defamation of the Prophet.

Insulting the Prophet Mohammed is considered blasphemous in Islam and is a crime punishable by death in ultra-conservative Saudi Arabia.  A committee of top clerics branded Kashgari an “infidel” and demanded his trial in an Islamic court.

King Abdullah has the power to pardon Kashgari but that seems unlikely to happen.  Will public outcry be enough to save Kashgari?  After all, isn’t he really just a young man who was perhaps a little naïve in sharing some candid thoughts?  How can his actions really justify a penalty as final as death?  He only upset some individuals with words.  He did not kill or physically hurt anyone.  He did not steal.

What do YOU think?

About these ads

126 Responses

  1. What I find to be so sad — and unfortunately characteristic of Muslims — is that nobody or no Muslim at least seems to be able and willing to ask ‘why”… Instead we have this brutal, vicious attack on a person’s speech without analyzing the content of that speech.

    Why don’t Muslims ask the obvious? What did he hate about Mohammed? Why things did their prophet do? Are they true? If not, shouldn’t factual errors be corrected…

    But no – all we see is blind, irrational fanaticism. Considering what the hadith say about the actions of this man, and what the Quran says about him being an example for Muslims, and then seeing this kind of reaction time after time, from Tweets to Teddy Bears, how are we, non-Muslims, supposed to deal with people like this?

    This mentality is exactly what causes do much pain, suffering, sorrow and death in the world today. Muslims have built for themselves an unforgiving intellectual quandary that devours their souls and spirit, so much that they more than anybody are consumed by the fires of their misplaced values. Worse yet, it will get worse. It seems that today for Muslims, the only answer to the madness they create is more madness.

    Once again it is obvious that to Muslims, Mohammad is above the Quran, Allah, and Islam itself.

    This is not going to end well. Bad times are coming.

  2. Three points:

    1- ”A committee of top clerics branded Kashgari an “infidel””.

    This is not true -at least to be polite. I think you should correct this statement because you put words in their mouth.

    2- ”Will public outcry be enough to save Kashgari?”

    The public outcry with or against Kashgari? In fact some clerics are trying to cool down the public.

    3- you wrote:” Most Saudi clerics want to see Kashgari punished to the fullest for defamation of the Prophet.”

    ”MOST”! It would be great if you share the statistics with us. And what is the difference punish and prosecuted? I think they ask for prosecution and he may be freed.

    Objection from individual like you is understandable, when you say:”He did not kill or physically hurt anyone”, because you may have never kill or hurt anyone. But the IRONY when a bunch of criminals in your country’s government use the same objection while they are involving in killing children and women almost everyday indiscriminately.

  3. Let the hateful comments begin.

    @Snowman:

    1. They did brand him an infidel by way of accusing him of apostasy. Being an apostate is the same as being an infidel.

    2. I’m sure by public she means global. The clerics that are trying to cool things down are being scoffed at by most Saudis illegitimizing their cleric-hood. Salman Al-Odah, a well known and high-respected moderate, called for mercy on Hamza and when he did that the majority of Saudi twitter users/newspaper commentators/facebook users blasted him for it, calling him “soft on the prophet’s insulter.”

    3. I don’t know if you read Arabic or not, but the number of Sheikhs that want Hamza pardoned is marginal to those that want him tried and/or killed. You just need to see their public statements online.

    Carol, this has reached a bad point. The attorney general wants to bring in Twitter users that agree and/or support Hamza, stated in Alhayat newspaper, in order to punish them as they are equally as “guilty.”

  4. There’s also a facebook group of 25k+ users that demand his execution. Saudi and its people have gone deeper down the toilet after all this.

  5. Did he insult the prophet? If so, what id he say? An analytical commentary is being written and will be loaded here soon

  6. Snowman:

    Okay apparently you have information that is not currently known. So why don’t you provide us with the information to which you are privy. Since you are in the know, please answer the following questions:

    1) What was the purpose of deporting him back to Saudi Arabia if most clerics or committee were against this? Is this the King’s initiative?

    2) You said some clerics are trying to cool this down but doesn’t that leave most heating the situation up further? How do you know that some are actually cooling it down?

    3) So what do most Saudi Clerics want and how do you know?

    4) Is this a dog and pony show to see the reaction of the international players along with internal populace so to gage how far an agenda could be pushed?

    One could say the same about your government in killing children and women almost everyday indiscriminately. The question is how does that make this case any less tangible or germaine to human rights? This particular topic is not on those issues but on this one case. This one case has a direct affect on certain human rights, freedom of expression and speech. This freedom has a direct relationship on human rights as blasphemy laws typical hid atrocities, creates oppression, and provides a means where people can be tortured for no other reason than to think and voice an opinion or even thier disbelief.

  7. It is debatable on whether he insulted the Prophet. In fact, that is subjective. All Hamza did was to tweet an imaginary conversation. So is he to be executed because he chose to share his thoughts?! I surely do not think he is alone out of all the Muslims in the world as wanting to have a conversation with the Prophet.

    I know as a mother I would not want my 23 year old son to be executed because he chose to share some private thoughts out loud!!! I would think that community service would be more than sufficient retribution.

    He’s not a member of Al Qaeda. He’s not a terrorist. He’s not a rapist. He’s not a child molester. He’s not a thief. He’s barely a man. He’s still a young guy who has not had a chance to fully live!

    Where is compassion for this young man?

  8. I have read what Kashgari wrote and it doesn’t seem insulting or blasphemous at all. If the same stuff was written about Jesus it would not have been noteable at all.

    Given Saudi Arabia executes people for witchcraft, it is should not be surprising that they will kill for something as inocuous as a twitter message. If Saudi Arabia wants to give the enemies of Islam in the West ammunition then let them execute the poor guy.

  9. Nayef – this is clearly getting way out of hand. What is known about Hamza’s family? I hope that they are supporting their son and have the Wasta to get positive action.

  10. I believe it states in the Koran, “Let no compassion move you.” So this is what Islam brings to the table for those who call themselves muslims particular in Saudi. The fact that so many Saudi’s are actually calling for his death only proves to the world what this form of Islam represents and what these types muslims represent, they represent cold heartless killers with no compassion. They follow their leader (self -appointed prophet) very well, after all he had a woman torn apart for mocking him. One has to ask why would anyone follow such a manmade cold heartless vile religion.

  11. @ Nayef

    ”They did brand him an infidel by way of accusing him of apostasy. Being an apostate is the same as being an infidel.”

    They didn’t. There is different between stating what the rules are and applying the rule in specific case. They only state the rules but never apply them on Hamza.

  12. I think this young man was smart to realize there are some things about Muhammad that aren’t admirable. Sadly, admitting your prophet is a mere man subject to sinning and having to ask God for forgiveness just like any of the rest of us mere humans is out of bounds when you think your prophet is as perfect as God.

    By the way, didn’t Muhammad himself ask God for forgiveness? If so, doesn’t this mean he did things we wouldn’t want to imitate?

  13. One wonders how one can insult a dead man (most dead men don’t seem to pay much attention to what is said about them). As for God, I would hope he would tell us when he gets insulted. I hate to rely on a bunch of self-important religious scholars to speak for him.

  14. The truth is that for Muslims, anything that is not complimentary of Mohammed or Allah or Islam is inflammatory. Kashgari’s tweets are not irreverent or inflammatory at all, and yet thousands of Muslims were inflamed by them and want him dead….

    What makes this case even more disturbing is the fact that Saudi Arabia is reported to have used Interpol’s “red notice” system to locate and arrest the 23 year old journalist. Police in Kuala Lumpur said Kashgari was detained at the airport “following a request made to us by Interpol.”

    The actions of the Saudi government, the Malaysian government and the thousands of fanatical Muslims who demanded the death of Kashgari are deplorable. But not a single government or news media condemned them. Human rights organizations pleaded for his release, but none reproached the conduct of these two Muslim countries and the reaction of the people calling for this man’s death.

  15. he tried his hand at poetry pouring out his thoughts, and it should be left at that..
    jailing him fo rthat is stupid and insane but then saudi and it’s religious heads are not know for their sanity !!!

    I hope his family has wasta and plenty of money to get him out and if he does i’m quirte sure he’s leave ksa ( if it’s possible) and showcase his poetry somewhre else where they appreciate it.

  16. @ radhaa

    ” i’m quirte sure he’s leave ksa ( if it’s possible) and showcase his poetry somewhre else where they appreciate it.”

    I hope when he leave he should be careful. because things are not as the media present them to be. If Kashgari watch this video he might decide to stay in Saudi.

  17. Snowman:

    Yes watched it. Given the fact that they a had TV crew and had been given a task to perform, I image this is a fake television production with the intent to drum up a controversy. This is called getting ratings for your broadcast.

  18. @ Honest Abe

    “But not a single government or news media condemned them.”

    Thats true, but both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch officially urged the Malaysian government not to deport him back to Saudi. A Malaysian human rights lawyer also publicly expressed his dissatisfaction with the deportation. As read on Al Jazeera.

  19. people cant afford a yet another anti-islam atheist since the whole world is just going ape crazy everyday about what each muslim individual do.

  20. Carol:

    Hamza’s family is indeed supportive of him and are urging to get him released. Though the platform they’re still using is that “he messed up and he’s sorry for it.” None one is saying that he didn’t write anything offensive. Almost all writers, even ones that are appealing for his release have all condemned his writing. No one is standing up to say that he didn’t write anything offensive and those of us that have were met by curses and death threats mostly by Saudi twitter users. This is fucking disgusting.

  21. @All
    I can recall that a Profesor,Dr and Mujadad and famous Islamic cleric of Pakistan had immaginary conversation with Prophet Mohammad(pbuh). There had been so many Audio Tapes in circulation Worldwide regarding this conversation (not very nice). That Dr, Profesor walked away free and no action , no execution, no punishment. No blasphemous.
    Why then Kashgari? I am just confused.

  22. @sami – he’s not too wealthy, he’s young and can reach youngsters of similar thoughts.. isn’t that enough to get the clerics after him.

    he’s not the first nor will he be the last to say something that’s a bit different fromthe usual portrayal of the prophet, there’s going to be plenty of unflaterring ones too, he’s just a soft target.

  23. As usual instead of focusing on the issue u guys go into an anti islam tirade which wouldn’t solve the guys problem. The poor boy needs people to help convince saudi authorities not to kill him he doesn’t need people to mock them. That will only convince the saudis that they are right. He needs construstive help not the useless tirade here.

  24. lolskater:

    Actually, the world could use a lot more anti-muslim atheists if this is what muslims represent. For over 25,000 muslims to call for his death over a kid questioning his belief is showing the world what alot of muslims stand for and that is death. Islam is what islam does and it is shaping up to be a death cult. Islam is so fearful that it is censoring everything and it is very afraid, so afraid that even a kid scares it. I beginning to think that many who follow Islam is like a cochroaches. Throw some light on the subject and they run in fear as they like the darkness the best.

  25. This had me in tears. Sorry for not using the same e-mail, I forgot the placeholder that I use, but boy does mob mentality run rampant.

  26. These are the offending words:

    “On your birthday, I will say that I have loved the rebel in you, that you’ve always been a source of inspiration to me, and that I do not like the halos of divinity around you. I shall not pray for you”

    “On your birthday, I find you wherever I turn. I will say that I have loved aspects of you, hated others, and could not understand many more”

    “On your birthday, I shall not bow to you. I shall not kiss your hand. Rather, I shall shake it as equals do, and smile at you as you smile at me. I shall speak to you as a friend, no more”

  27. Hamza has never denounced his faith. All he has done is to showcase that he has read the history of the Prophet and voiced his questions.

    Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. Therefore, clerics should want to embrace Hamza and respond to his questions. Not, NOT call for his death!

  28. What exactly did he say, verbatim?

  29. Did Mohamed ever say that people who had questions about him or who in some way said something not nice about him be killed??
    Why do Muslims set themselves up a judge and jury over something like this? Is it not for their Allah to decide??? Answer me that. No harm has been done to anyone.

    Muslims will not step up in his defense because of fear. Plain and simple.

  30. “What do YOU think?”

    I think Muhammad would have read his words and thanked him for letting him (Muh) be human and not made equal with the divine.

    I think Muhammad would have admired Kashgari’s courage, his rebel spirit!

    I think Muhammad would have said “I am a man just like you so of course you should never bow down to me. We should only bow before God.”

    I think Muhammad would condemn these self-righteous people who have exalted him (Muh) that it borders on shirk.

  31. Well said, Susanne!

  32. Allahu Akbar, the great scholar Al Ghazzali understood that Mansur Al Hallaj had not meant to be heretical in the comments that led to the order for his execution (922 C.E./309 A.H.) by the Caliph Al Muqtadir. Yet, as Al Ghazzali commented, Al Hallaj should not have expressed abstract thoughts openly that would be misinterpreted by an ignorant general audience. (Sufis tend to say things that negate their own being, substantiating no existence but that of God the Almighty. The crowd interprets such as heresy.)

    This phenomenon is not restricted to Muslims. Heresies are interpreted by any group that have narrow margins of interpretation.

    Thank you, Carol!

  33. P.S. If you don’t mind–the above should be “any group that has narrow margins.” Woe is me; I am an English teacher!

  34. What I do not understand is the fear that the clerics have for anyone to question anything about the Muslim faith. Would a man, a prophet a teacher not want to have the op[portunity to teach or to explain to a young man the points he did not understand or question about his faith? Why is is better to follow blindly any faith, and government without question? Why would God, Allah, or any Diety give you the ability to reason and to question if he or in some other faiths she want you to use these gifts. The Christian faith had these same restrictions on its followers until I believe the 1950’sr1960’s and they still have problems but except for a few the use of reason and education not fear help to have people keep thier faith.

  35. The only reason this has been escalated by the government is purely for political reasons. There have been many “blasphemous” writers/speakers/thinkers who were never executed for it. As far as I know, Saudi doesn’t execute gay people anymore. But what’s going on with this case is pretty simple. The extremist Wahhabi right that’s trying to completely turn Saudi to Taliban is gaining a lot of strength. They’re like the Tea Party in that they don’t think the government is taking enough conservative action. The government is trying to appeal to them without giving them too much power over the royals. So to shut them up for now, the government might give them the sacrificial lamb that could be Hamza.

  36. Bowing down to these type of people will only make matters worse and they will ask for more sacrafices in the form of your freedom and your life.

  37. I don’t know what he said , of coarse it is a grave sin to insult a personality who is so highly revered and the act is simply not pardonable since nobody has any idea how the blasphemy hurt the believers and admirers but capital punishment for such a case is absolutely un-islamic . As american Bedu said ”He’s not a member of Al Qaeda. He’s not a terrorist. He’s not a rapist. He’s not a child molester. He’s not a thief. He’s barely a man. He’s still a young guy who has not had a chance to fully live!
    Now think . If the Rasool e Akram(s) was there would he have permitted his execution .was he not used to insults, thorns, durts and stones,quite often when he used to come back home, his daughter used to wash blood .Did He ever took revenge?Then look,do you know
    what the Qora’an says, any of the Saudi cleric ever thought or it is only to be printed and distributed in plenty.What does it means ? ”La ikraha fiddeen ‘ (there is no compulsion in Islam) That is why I said it is just un-islamic to hang him and those who are suggesting execution are not Islamic Cleric, they are illiterate Jahil, they are unbeleiver and apostate..He should only be taught, he should be be convinced that what he said and did was wrong,,don’t kill him , teach him, after all he is said to be a hafiz e Qora’an, how can you behead a Hafiz e Qora’an or can Saudis could do it , no wonder if they can.

  38. Hayef, it is beyond political. It is about POWER. This violent reaction gives certain people power. Many Muslims, unfortunately in the clergy and leadership class, have found that their tantrums cause fear and respect among other ‘moderate’ Muslims and non-Muslims. They can’t get respect by their art, science, charity or moral example, but their ANGER delivers it in a nice big package.

    I doubt that these people care about this young man or even his words. This is just a tool to reinforce the ‘don’t mess with us we are irrational angry people’ message that so many Muslims send out daily. Too bad.

    As to you, Zaheer, your comment is typical of what drives me nuts about Muslims, even good ones. You talk about the ‘nice’ stories that show tolerance and humility, yet ignore other stories from the same sources that teach hate, violence and intolerance. You talk about Mohammed tolerating insults yet you ignore episodes like Asma bint Marwan, the pregnant woman horror story, attacks on women, etc…as if they were not there. toward. You mention the ‘no compulsion’ verse as it it were a done deal and yet Muslims do nothing to change universal compulsion inherant in the blasphemy and apostasy laws. It is as if Islam is just one big lie that good Muslims tell to unbelievers, when the reality is both different and ugly. whew… I would accept your words as good and honest if I could see them being practiced anywhere in Islamdom.

    I doubt if that we are going to see 10,000 Muslims demonstrating in the streets of Jeddah, Cairo, Islamabad, Istambul or Tripoli yelling “No compulsion, let him go!”

  39. I agree with what Honest Abe said.

    I think many in retrospect are not surprised this happened. Certain elements of society were looking for a chance to “get” someone from the “other” manner of thinking and this was their chance. They were unusually organised and quickly mobilised. They had 30,000 messages in an hour- and managed to whip everything to a frenzy. Local press is reporting it as “blasphemous” and talking about “apostasy” and they will not print the tweets- so many are assuming the worst of possible insults. And the word “alledged” is never used.

    This whole incident has me greatly disturbed. It is a reminder to me to never forget where I am and how the law and some (too many) of the people are.

    So I’m not all doom and gloom. Solutions- long term. You will never convince some that those tweets are not blasphemous and therefore render the author an apostate. However, they really REALLY need a redo on the consequences of being an Apostate. There have been and are scholars that differentiate between exercising “no compulsion in religion” and apostasy in the form of actual treason. There needs to be a clear reformation and understanding of it in terms of “no compulsion in religion”.

    There also needs to be a redo on all this nonsense about respect and “hurt feelings”. Based on what can Muslims expect the world to automatically respect them as per their definition and never hurt their feelings? This is unrealistic in the extreme. By the same sort of logic ALL Christians can have hurt feeling and feel disrespected because Jesus isn’t accepted as GOD (yes I know. Some of them are exactly that way). You simply can’t control this stuff.

    For those of you hoping that Muslims are going to somehow see how illogical all this is- that will never happen you are dreaming. So solutions need to come from the realm of possibility.

    Jumps off soapbox.

  40. When travelling to ME countries and especially KSA my husband worries that I might inadvertently say something that could get me into hot water. I’m old enough to know how to keep my mouth shut and my thoughts to myself and yes, Sandy, we must always remember where we are and what the laws of the land are.

  41. I think that the Muslims who wish to see Hamza released should gather together and demonstrate. Sure…there may be repercussions but I don’t think it’s right to just sit quietly and be passive about such an outrage. There can be quiet and peaceful demonstrations. If there is too much fear about a public demonstration then have a certain time when people have their lights off and candles in the windows as a show of support.

    It’s clear Hamza is still just a very young man who acted impulsively on expressing thoughts publicly without thinking through of consequences. That is not a reason to either ruin his life or stop him from living.

  42. Carol, don’t you think that fear will keep people from demonstrating?

  43. Yes, Wendy, I do believe fear will sadly keep many from demonstrating and speaking up in support. And…that is probably what the authorities want. Therefore, I think alternative methods of showing support should be organized that may be subtle but at least demonstrate a voice…even if it is a silent voice.

    Another thought is to wear a bracelet, similar to the ones people will wear for cancer. A specific color could be identified in support of Hamza such as green or white. Or even a green or white ribbon, again similar to a cancer ribbon, but one that a guy can wear on a thobe or a woman can wear on an abaya. Maybe such visual signs will give those supporting Hamza more encouragement and courage for other actions.

  44. I agree with what should happen but I doubt it will. When you’re taught from within the womb ……

  45. It’s not just idiots in saudi calling for his death, There are idiots in US who think he shouldn’t die but tried and punished for speaking badly about about the prophet and hurting everyone sentiments !!!
    See loonies are everywhere just because they move to the US doesn’t make the stupidity in them go away.

    My 4pm yesterday was one such vocal defender of the prophets rights to not be bad mouthed and when i gently prodded he hadn’t even read the tweets verbatim :-)

    of course he expected me to agree with him ( i usually never argue with sick ) but i couldn’t shut up about this and when i said i did not agree with him ( with a smile) he agreed with me and smiled ( but all that sweetness acco to F – could be since his family jewels would be in my care later next week and you certainly didn’t go around annoying that person)

    SO unless someone big aka.. some big shot prince took his side it will be messy, either that or maybe the international outcry will shame the saudi clerics ( you never know)

  46. I wish I could share this with all those crazy people so they’d be reminded of the merciful traits of the one they say they want to be like.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/imam-sohaib-sultan/why-the-prophet-muhammad-_b_1282689.html

  47. This incident has proven to me that for many muslims they are an intolerant bunch who will committee murder in the name of make believe. It is become more apparent that islamophobia is an incorrect assessment. Apparently it is not an irrational fear at all instead it is an honest assessment of backward tribal barbaric murderous people who do pose a real world threat. It is becoming more apparent to me that there is a real need to re-evaluate the threat of muslims to tolerant societies if this type of frenzy which calls for a kid’s death on such a trival manner is being called for by so many muslims. This incident along with a few more has made me rethink my position in dealing with muslims and their religion.

  48. @ bigstick1

    ‘ intolerant bunch who will committee murder in the name of make believe.’

    The good thing is that they are mere individual. The problem is when the killing committed by state military such as your tolerant country. When a war on innocent nation or nations committed in order to make them believe in Western democracy. I don’t know how people from your country find time to criticise others while they are coming from a very dangerous country who kill innocent day and night in open and in secret. You should look at your country and try to change its imperial attitudes. Believe me people will not buy what you said because they know how are more dangerous to the world security (muslims or the democracy promoter Usa).

    Btw the video is genuine not staged! Why on earth Top Gear lie to increase their rating!! Their rating is already very High. This to confirm:

  49. Snowman: They are not individual they are a group supported by Saudi Arabian government otherwise he would not have been deported back.

    Again you try to divert from the topic in hopes to deflect from the issue facing this kid and the religous intolerance of Saudi and the thousand of muslims who support this.

    Again. These individuals were intially told to paint their cars and perform a task. They had a camera crew with them. This is show biz. Rating keeps their show going or they get cancel. Poof no more job, no money, no nothing. Therefore, they do what they can to ensure rating. Seriously haven’t your figured out television production yet. Make believe used to ensure ratings.

  50. bigstick1

    I am not avoiding the subject. ‘religous intolerance of Saudi ‘ bringing hamza to trail is not intolerance, but it is restriction of freedom of expression which is almost in every country. If he want to break the law he could leave the country then say what he want. While in Saudi he should obey the rule of the country and don’t offend the people. This is what the vast majority of the population want, they don’t want their prophet to be insulted instead they want the prophet to be respected. This is the will of the people. If someone don’t like it they can leave, they can go to Alabama where they could insult Mohammed or Jesus or even Nascar. How you say he is kid? He is 23. Anyway, I wish all the best for Hamza and his family.

  51. In Susanne’s link above we see how dishonest Muslims are – Imam Sultan makes up his own version of history. Take this quote: “But, it is also true that the Prophet practiced the highest ethics in war by avoiding the killing of innocents, prohibiting torture and mutilation, the poisoning of wells, cutting down fruit-bearing trees, and so on. Even on the battlefield, the Prophet practiced restraint and patience at every turn. The Prophet’s mercy extended to the universe around him. He taught his companions to protect birds; he even consoled grieved animals; and showed endearing concern for the trees and plant life. The Prophet always took little from the earth and taught his followers to preserve water even if they were near a running river.”
    Many of the stories from the first part of his article are from Tabari, written almost 300 years after Mohammad – not the hadith (written only 200 hundred years after Mohammad). Hardly first hand, reliable accounts.

    Yes, Mohammad did some nice things, but he also did at least as many evil things, if not more. Moreover, as he because more powerful, he became more ruthless and intolerant. Most of the stories in the Imam’s article are from his early days.

    Anyway let us look at this fine piece of prose… Let us examine what the Imam says and look at just a few instances from the ahadith…

    …but, it is also true that the Prophet practiced the highest ethics in war by avoiding the killing of innocents — except those he killed in his 12 battles and 25+ personal raids he led plus the other 2 dozen he sent out, plundering and enslaving men women and children. Oh yes, he raped the women, too. Take just the surprise attack and enslavement and rape of half of the Banu al Mustaliq or the massacre of the Banu Qurayzah. This is what the Imam calls ‘high ethics’.

    …prohibiting torture and mutilation — Except when he did torture, cutting off fingers, or opposing hands and feet. He had hot nails put in the eyes of the men from the tribe of ‘Ukil. He built a fire on Kinana’s chest to force him to tell where the treasure was hidden (why didn’t Mohammad just ask Allah?). In fact, these types of tortures are described and mandated in the Quran.

    … prohibiting the poisoning of wells, cutting down fruit-bearing trees — Except that he did both of these. He burned down the date palms of the Banu al Nadir and burned the vineyards of the Thaqif at Taif. In fact, these actions scandalized his men because it was a taboo in Arabia to do this, so much that Mohammad soon announced that Allah had given him special permission to cut down and burn trees. Here is the verse: “Whatever trees you have cut down or left standing on their trunks, it is with the permission of Allah so that he may disgrace the evil-doers” (Quran 59:5). What Mohammad did was introduce total ruthless war, something new to Arabs.

    …Even on the battlefield, the Prophet practiced restraint and patience at every turn. The Prophet’s mercy extended to the universe around him. He taught his companions to protect birds; he even consoled grieved animals; and showed endearing concern for the trees and plant life — except for the animals he hated and ordered killed. Mohammad did not like hyenas, bats, lizards, spiders, snakes — and dogs. Ibn ‘Umar reported: I heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanding the killing of dogs and the killing of the striped and the short-tailed snakes, for both of them affect the eyesight adversely and cause miscarriage. On the positive side, if a Muslims kills geckos, he gets brownie points in paradise. And there is this: Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: “An Apostle from amongst the Apostles of Allah encamped under a tree, and an ant bit him, and he commanded his belongings to be removed from underneath the tree. He then commanded and it was burnt”,

    I’ll stop here. These things are easily found in the hadith, yet somehow our Imam missed them. Could it be that he is a liar? I can forgive the ignorance of ordinary Muslims but not a so-called ‘expert’ from Princeton, no less.

    This is why I believe that Muslims are not honest about Islam, their sacred writings or their prophet. I believe that most Muslims are either in denial or would persecute and kill us if they had the chance to do so, or they would let this happen because they are afraid to think or of other Muslims (take your pick). Bad times are coming.

  52. Snowman,

    Do you believe that “not to be insulted” is more important than being honest, than not attacking and abusing others?

    Why do Muslims always ignore the many terrible things done by their prophet yet would condemn non-Muslims immediately if they do those same things?

    It seems that the correct term here is not ‘respect’ but ‘worship’. To Muslims, Mohammad is not just a god, but a senior partner with his side-kick, Allah. How else would you explain that fact that, to Muslims, Mohammad is exempt from all moral standards applicable to humans?

  53. Jay

    you kindly wrote:
    ‘Do you believe that “not to be insulted” is more important than being honest, than not attacking and abusing others?’

    Hitler use the honest argument and look what he did. Some of his actions have kind of logical justification but that not the way the world should be run. give you an example, If inciting hatred is legal in the US then that doesn’t mean that it should be legal everywhere. Many civilised countries care about the emotion of their population. If you survey the people by the question: Should inciting hatred that could lead to violence be illegal as in Europe and other civilised nations or it should be legal as it the case today in the civilised US? What do you think the answer will be? Those who like to cite hatred on the expense of other people emotions because they want to be honest are wrong and not civilised in many people’s eyes. So there is urgent need to put some restriction on the freedom of expression. And I think if the world chose to put restriction then I don’t think you should lecture them how they should run their lives. If they chose to respect their prophet and put restriction on insulting him then I think you should leave them alone. It is not right to impose your idea on others or use military force to apply your version of how life should be run.

    Correlation doesn’t mean causation. If your country is very successful and hate speech is legal that doesn’t mean hate speech has lead to the success.

    You also wrote:
    ‘Why do Muslims always ignore the many terrible things done by their prophet yet would condemn non-Muslims immediately if they do those same things?’

    How is that?

    You finally wrote:
    ‘How else would you explain that fact that, to Muslims, Mohammad is exempt from all moral standards applicable to humans?’

    I don’t know what to say! Muslims read criticism of the prophet Mohammed -Pace be upon him- in the Quran! And when I was a child in school I was taught that the prophet has done mistakes and Allah Admonished him in the quran. And we teach this to our children. But telling historic facts is one thing and insulting is another.

  54. Imam Sultan, in the Huffpo article, is going beyond Taqqiya, by exercising a newly-formed doctrine called Muruna, which literally means “stealth” or “flexibility.” It is far worse than taqiyya, since it sanctions all prohibitions that block Muslim interests, even blasphemous ones, and allows Muslims to sow division and confusion in the Western world.

    What would these imams invent next? :)-

    http://pjmedia.com/blog/muruna-violating-sharia-to-fool-the-west/

  55. Inciting hatred isn’t about hurting peoples feelings or respecting their emotions. It’s about preventing violence. This young man was not trying to physically hurt anyone. Big difference.

  56. “he tried his hand at poetry pouring out his thoughts, and it should be left at that..”

    I think Radha is onto something here. The prophet has a Dead Poets Society. I think the clerics just want to add another member.

    I hope this does not turn into another savage act by the blood thirsty animals who do not belong in any civilized society. Never mind having control of the affairs of an entire nation.

  57. Definition of Intolerance: refusal to accept differences: unwillingness or refusal to accept people who are different from you, or views, beliefs, or lifestyles that differ from your own

    “I am not avoiding the subject. ‘religous intolerance of Saudi ‘ bringing hamza to trail is not intolerance, but it is restriction of freedom of expression which is almost in every country.”

    By definition, your statement fits intolerance. In fact your statement is lacking in all critical skills ability. In that the religious intolerance of views and expression is not intolerance. In this statement your whole premise is that intolerance is not intolerance if the religious and Saudi people support the initiative to kill a person over words.

    “If he want to break the law he could leave the country then say what he want. While in Saudi he should obey the rule of the country and don’t offend the people.”

    Inhumane laws are not meant to be followed. They are meant to be fought as it is an unnatural state to humanity. Expression is a natural part of being human.

    Next, everyone is tired of over sensitive muslim individuals that go nuts and kill people over a dead rapist, pedo, murderous, lying, warmongering, vile, tortortous, self appointed prophet. Which all of these statements on his character is supported by the koran, Isn Ishaq bibliography, and hadith.

    “This is what the vast majority of the population want, they don’t want their prophet to be insulted instead they want the prophet to be respected.”

    So by this analogy, if the mass majority of people of the earth wanted to kill everyone in Canada because they felt Canadians didn’t believe in tiny pink unicorns. Then this would be acceptable according to your logic as might makes right.

    “This is the will of the people. If someone don’t like it they can leave,”

    Yes back to might makes right. Murder, rape mayhem all okay if the will of the people are behind it. Mob rules to the detriment of humanity.

    Next he did try to leave but Saudi government just could leave it alone. No they had to go out of their way to bring him back to make an example of him. It is supported by thousands of individual Saudi muslims.

    Again why would any tolerant society want such individuals living near their society’s individuals. As this sets up individuals who will become victims to backward tribal murderous intolerant individuals as they live outside the norms of a civilized society realm. Ergo, Islamophobia is an incorrect analysis as such, as the this type of individual does pose a real and definitive threat to civilized societies.

    “they can go to Alabama where they could insult Mohammed or Jesus or even Nascar.”

    Yes he could have but Saudi stopped him. Go ahead go to Alabama and insult away. I don’t care. Most don’t care.

    “How you say he is kid? He is 23.”

    Scientist have found that the brain does not complete its growth until about the age of 25. Up until then young adults often are reckless and behave in a manner typical of a teenager. Ergo still a kid not fully developed mentally. The brain is still growing.

    “Anyway, I wish all the best for Hamza and his family.”

    I have wonder about this based upon all you previous statements on mob rule and might makes right belief.

  58. To all:

    I ask that you sign this petition or another petition to voice your opposition to this inhumane and barbaric act by the Saudi Arabia Government and thousands of it’s people. This young man needs the support of the world that says we value him as a human with certain human rights. Some of those rights are to question, to think, to expound upon and to project yourself into the greater stream of voices.

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/death-calls-for-saudi-poet-and-blogger/

  59. sandy

    ‘Inciting hatred isn’t about hurting peoples feelings or respecting their emotions. It’s about preventing violence.’

    What a statement!! Is this your opinion? Or do you think this is also the legislatures’ opinions in America or around the world? I think there are court cases where mere being offensive was enough justification to lift the protection of free speech.

  60. Snowman:

    Here is the last big case in the US on Freedom of Speech in 1969: It gives a wide and I do mean a wide berth on just how far you can go.

    Here is a statment that is telling:

    The three distinct elements of this Brandenburg test (intent, imminence, and likelihood) have distinct precedential lineages.

    ‘Judge Learned Hand was possibly the first judge to advocate the intent standard, in Masses Publishing Co. v. Patten, 244 F. 535 (S.D.N.Y. 1917), reasoning that “[i]f one stops short of urging upon others that it is their duty or their interest to resist the law, it seems to me one should not be held to have attempted to cause its violation.” The Brandenburg intent standard is more speech-protective than Hand’s formulation, which contained no temporal element.

    The imminence element was a departure from earlier rulings.. Brandenburg did not explicitly overrule the bad tendency test, but it appears that after “Brandenburg”, the test is de facto overruled. The “Brandenburg” test effectively made the time element of the clear and present danger test more defined and more rigorous.’

    The last statemen on the clear and present danger test was more defined and more rigorous means that it is extremely difficult to curtail free speech. The court case as from 1969 and today has had no true test challenges to it mandate of freedom of speech.

    The case allowed KKK to burn a cross in opposition to the Government’s stance on allowing equality for people of color, their hatred of jews and total disgust of the US government.

    They still can burn a cross to this day.

    Next you can burn a US flag and scream the US sucks.

    Then you can go outside of dead soldier’s funeral and scream to the family members that their dead love one is a murderer. (I personally don’t care for this one but it is there right.) Just like it was the right of Hell’s Angels to buffer them from the funeral percession and rev up the hogs when they shouted. (I liked that.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

    If you don’t like wikipedia on this one you can look it up under the official find law for the supreme court.

  61. Talk about screwing up this line: “The court case as from 1969 and today has had no true test challenges to it mandate of freedom of speech. ”

    It should read: The court case from 1969 to today has had no true test challenges to the case, to date, against this freedom of speech decision.

  62. Snowman,
    Yes please give me an example from the US where “hurt feelings” made them stop, or prosecute someone’s free speech

  63. Wow. It is like I had a crystal ball or something. Maybe it is that I am firmly aware of how the ultra conservative religious types work. Don’t blame them they are following their manmade hate books that they have annointed with the word holy/devine.

    So what does the conservatives do, well they demand more and insert the will over people taking away freedom by tactics of bullying.

    So here we go with the some old story, rinse, repeat, story, rinse, repeat. The cycle of religious abuse continues.

    This is what they feel their victory of persecution of the poet has given the right to do.

    http://mideastposts.com/2012/02/20/high-on-victory-saudi-conservatives-on-the-march/

    There are times people must take a stand or you become a slave and history is re-written. Just like it has been for all those who follow religions as they are lies which have been re-written or only portions of fables and events have been take to craft a different religion to the writers liking all for the purposes of loot, women and power.

  64. Good article and thanks for posting it. Very frightening to say the least.

  65. Sandy

    I thought we were talking globally. You limit the scope on the US “give me an example from the US “. Hate speech is universal issue not american one. And I was talking about Europe when I said they care about the emotion of their citizen. Hence, free speech is not protected when it is offensive. And you kindly claim inciting hatred is only about violence. And that is not true.

    You can’t find justification for prohibiting hate speech in the Ratio decidendi of the american court cases simply because hate speech is legal. You maight find it in the Obiter dictum of the cases but I don’t have examples at the moment.

    In Europe they care about religious sensitivities. For instance, (Liebeskonzil is a 1982 film by Werner Schroeter, based on a play by Oskar Panizza. It was banned by the Austrian government in 1985, on the grounds that it insulted the Christian religion. In 1994, in the case of Otto-Preminger-Institut v. Austria, the European Court of Human Rights held by 6 votes to 3 that the banning of the film was a justifiable limitation on the freedom of expression, because the film would offend Austrian Roman Catholics.). Source:Wikipedia. In the wording of the ECtHR decision they said:

    (((However, as is borne out by the wording itself of Article 10 para. 2, whoever exercises the rights and freedoms enshrined in the first paragraph of that Article undertakes “duties and responsibilities”. Amongst them – in the context of religious opinions and beliefs – may legitimately be included an obligation to avoid as far as possible expressions that are gratuitously offensive to others and thus an infringement of their rights))).

    This is clear example where freedom of expression doesn’t cover the speech which is gratuitously offensive to cretin religious group even though it might not lead to violence.

    Also from Wikipedia: (In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group.) but Wiki is not academically acceptable source.

    Even in US when hate speech lead to violence it is still legal. When it lead to imminent violence then it is prohibited.

  66. Bigsticks1

    Thank you very much for Brandenburg test, it is enlightening, but I wonder where does Occupy wall street fit in this. The call for OCCUPY is not lead to Imminent lawless action? And therefore should be band?

  67. Snowman:

    I told you if you didn’t like wikipedia to go to Findlaw. You will get the same case law straight from the US supreme court. It is a long and lengthy court case. This was a condensed version. It will tell you the same thing.

    I depends on who does the violence. In other words, if people giving the speech are not the cause of the disruption but other are then they are going to jail. Because now it is not a speech it is a brawl. Here is the thing. It is often times the people who didn’t like the speech generally goes to jail.

    I live in America and know what I am talking about. You can burn the quran, piss on or burn the bible or any number of things and you won’t have your speech curtailed at least not without a lawsuit. Dearborn, MI where numerous Muslim reside tried this and they lost the lawsuits as they interferred with free speech. They lost three times in a row. I wonder how much money that cost their community. Quite a bit and it put them in a very very unfavorable light in the US and they are not well received by many after this incident. In other words, they should have let it alone and allowed the speaker to go on. Now anytime anyone deals with the mosque or police (muslim ran) they video everything and they continue to lose. But this community has tried everytime to use bully techniques to stop free speech. All of which is documented and viewed by freedom of speech loving Americans. So believe me when I tell you that here in the US people won’t stand for others trampling on that right. You don’t have to like the message but you won’t interfer with the speech or the person interferring may find themselve in a lawsuit paying out big money or going to jail or both. Americans are real touchy about free speech and we will never give it up without a fight.

    http://rt.com/news/lars-hedegaard-muslim-immigration/

    In this case, he won and free speech still exists. All this does is galvanize those of us who believe in free speech to fight to keep it.

    Could you explain further on the details of what you are asking for on Occupy Wall Street?

  68. Snowman:

    I will give you the best answer on Occupy based upon what I think your asking.

    No occupy wallstreet was a long term demonstration that was considered peaceful. You did have incidents where some police got out of hand and some protestors go out of hand. However overall it was a long term demonstration that was peaceful that was intended to send a message. It was allowed by the cities and the country.

    Let me know if this answered your questions.

  69. What should be standard is this old and famous quote by Voltaire

    “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”

    I guess there is always fine line that should not be crossed but some countries (and I will include Canada) are becoming a bit too ‘politically correct’. Above all we should remember what our country stands for and we should accept no less than total acceptance of our existing laws by immigrants coming into our country. They need to understand that we can speak freely here, can maybe publish something not so favourable about Mohamed or Jesus or whoever without fear of reprisal. If Muslims or any other religion or group tries to incite a riot over someone else’s right to free speech it is they who should be quashed and not the person who is doing something legal.

  70. The comments are going astray from how Hamza can be helped.

  71. Snowman
    If you want to
    know more go to debate page.

  72. Carol, we can’t help him. We couldn’t from the beginning. Petitions won’t do much. Only when people realize that everyone should be entitled to free speech will he be helped. Muslims can’t allow free speech when it comes to even a hint of something not perfect about Mohamed and until Muslims can come to grips with the fact that it is up to Allah only to judge the boy he will not ever be helped.

  73. Many people read this blog. I encourage giving suggestions on ways to help Hamza whether by words or suggested actions.

  74. Can we say that some are missing the point on this perhaps it is me.. A young man says something about a prophet not Allah, not God and for this he can be put to death? This is not about free speech it is about people who Bastardize a religion for their own power. You may get angry at me for this but that is how I see it. WQe are so ubor sensitive to everything it is impossible to live without insuuting someone or something. Simple expressions are taken as insults where none is intended how can we live in a world when we cannot see the difference between true insults meant to harm and just saying things that can be considere3d stupid.

  75. Carol, many have suggested actions such as calm down and leave the judgements to Allah.
    What would you suggest to really help him?

  76. Crantode:

    Yes it is that basterdization of religion that Saudi is doing and the curtailing of free speech. Keeping people in fear of saying anything helps keep up dictatorships, torture, murder, and power. All of which the Saudi government is guilty of along with human rights violations. This is meant to keep the radical nut job clerics in play in Saudi and they are feeling their oats as this is just one incident of many. If this and other incidents are allowed to stand expect to see them continue on with curtailing freedoms, inflicting terror and bully tactics, and torture.

    At some point you would think people of Saudi would get tired of this and grow a pair.

  77. Bigstick 1 – It is so hard for me to judge the people since I am not there and fear is a powerful .Deterrent . I am considered to be not of the faint of heart but when it may include your family who knows what I would do. I do wish and hope that change will come. Machiavellians know and as Machiavell said better to be fearded than to be loved. That is way despots rule. What I do not understand in any case is the attachment to paper. If you believe what is in the Koran or Bible it should be in your heart. The book, is man made the lessons are what count. Closed minds are a danger to us all everywhere not just in the Middle East.

  78. Well, booty from raids is shared out. And Allah shares his part with the prophet. And as Allah doesn’t really exist the prophet gets it all. Basically the prophet is god.
    And killing people who criticize him is normal, that’s what he did himself, sending out assassins to kill female poets in their homes while breastfeeding.
    How did Moq call that? ”Mohammed’s Dead Poets Society”?
    That was brilliant!

  79. I agree with Wendy, let Allah judge him, let him go free and see if he’s going to be struck with lightning or something. After all, if Allah is all powerful then I am sure She will manage to get at him.

    If however he leads a happy and fruitful long life that would be a pointer that Allah doesn’t mind at all if people insult the prophet.

  80. Actually that point has been and is still being proved, outside of Sharia ruled countries lots of people insult the prophet all the time all over and lead very happy long lives.
    Allah has no problem with the prophet being insulted.
    Qed.

  81. With incredible regularity and savagery, the conservatives inside the Saudi structure target an individual – usually a young person – who has the courage or at least the naiveté to believe they are free. A few years ago, you’ll recall, it was Mazen Abdul Jawad – the guy who talked about his sex life on TV. He was held up as an example of the evil of outside influences and the degeneration of all that is virtuous in KSA. Last fall it was Manal, the women who dared to drive-while-female. Now it’s this kid giving those same conservatives (and there are more of them every day, Carol – it’s getting ridiculous!) even more legitimacy and freedoms to harass and bully and further reign in any thinking that isn’t their thinking. The kingdom is in a death spiral back to the sixth century and Hamza is just the latest casualty.

    Sadly, I have no idea how anyone can help him as long as KSA is under the iron fist of extremist Muslims. Maybe if the story hadn’t come out things would be different, but now there are too many rabid folks out there looking for an example, and the last thing these conservatives want to look is weak and impotent…

  82. Perhaps the latest attempt at burning Korans in Afghanistan will ‘help’ take the heat off the lad.

  83. Problem is that Muslims treat the Prophet as a god, not as a human being with strengths and weaknesses, which is what the Qur’an teaches us about him. In reality great men are never perfect, as long as they are men, and the Qur’an achknowledges this very truthfully. In fact, Hamza knows the Qur’an a lot better than most of the people who now rail against him, and all he did in his imaginary conversations was to draw the logical conclusion from his studies and treat the Prophet as a living human being, rather than merely a high minded idol of sterile perfection.
    Sadly, and unfortunately for him, logic and Islam don’t go together nowadays (contrast this to the much higher level of Islamic scholarship 1000 years ago).
    I don’t know Hamza, but was very sad for him and for the whole Saudi people when I heard about him, because, regardless what you believe about the religous “truth” of the case, he will surely be exploited by the Saudi regime as convenient cannon fodder in their politcal battle against the modern world and to justify all kinds of political repression.

  84. In a related development, Iran is once again a BIG misunderstander of Islam. It sentences Christian pastor who converted from Islam to death for apostasy.

    Muslim spokesmen such as Salam al-Marayati, M. Cherif Bassiouni, and Ali Eteraz (among many others) have assured us that Islam has no death penalty for apostasy. Hope that they will immediately be jetting over to Tehran to explain to the mullahs that they’re getting Islam all wrong, wrong, wrong, and should free Youcef Nadarkhani immediately.

    Same goes for Saudi Arabia to free Hamza Kashgari IMMEDIATELY!

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/02/22/iran-court-convicts-christian-pastor-convert-to-death/

  85. I hope that the attorney who Hamza had while in Malayasia is looking at options to take the government of Malayasia to court for its vile action in turning Hamza over to Saudi authorities.

    Then I wish that all who DO support Hamza in KSA would stand up and not be fearful to say so. Can you imagine many standing up and saying “I am Hamza too” for all Hamza did was voice some of his thoughts and questions.

    Okay, barring a massive voice which is heard, there’s nothing against wearing a ribbon which symbolizes support for Hamza…..

    Just do not be totally silent!

  86. Oh my gosh, he is so handsome! And he sounds like such an intelligent person too, despite his youth (although he’s still older than me)! I truly pray someone with a heart over there finally sees the light of reason and decides to let him go, what a boon to humanity that would be! :’]

  87. Prayer moves mountain.

    Let’s pray for a miracle, that King Abdullah would give him a pardon.

  88. [...] Arabia: Springtime in th…Moderator on Saudi Arabia: Book Review of “…Timothy on Saudi Arabia: What Should Be D…iqbal on Riyadh Police – Public S…Julia Simpson-Urruti… on Saudi Arabia: Would [...]

  89. i do not think it is a matter where we go by public opinion since it is of religion and Islam has already decided for such people.

    If it is his death, then so should be done as Islam is the most fair religion of all.

  90. YQ, Islam is just as unfair as all other religions. Islam doesn’t like people who aren’t robots like you, and so this rule book, devised by a selfish cruel desert warlord decrees the death of anybody with a free mind.
    That is not justice, that is nasty and evil.
    And besides killing innocent people it is super evil by keeping people like you to a low standard of thinking and morality.

    These miscarriages of humanity should make clear that religions are fascist in their core. There is no justice or morality here, they just claim to provide these because it looks good but we see justice and morality are never really the goal, religions are only really concerned with subjecting and enslaving people, and protecting themselves by killing all who are not compliant.
    Only a person who has been properly brainwashed and has lost all independent thought and all sense of justice and whose morality has been completely corrupted by religion can claim this is ”just”.

  91. YQ if you think Islam is the most fair religion- then of course he should be set free. “There is NO compulsion in religion”. Apostasy as a crime was linked with treason. There is no other “fair” way to look at this.

    I am also deeply disturbed by Interpol participation in this. It was uncharactaristically speedy of them and this wasn’t even a crime.

  92. And YQ proves my thoughts on what can be done.

    Sandy these were my thoughts exactly. WHY was Interpol even involved? That has really, really puzzled both myself and my husband.

  93. Good point! of course the ”most fair religion of them all” would set him free, and not arrest him at all!

    I didn’t know about Interpol being involved in this? My regard for interpol just plummeted to zero. how dare they, this guy hasn’t done anything criminal at all! I wonder who got paid for this…

  94. I think this guy is a bit of an Arabphobe- but he does discuss the interpol aspect of this. How accurately- I’m not sure.

  95. I missed the Arabophobia. What exactley does he say which is phobic?
    He made a good point about Malaysia though, it’s really past tense that that was a reasonable country, they are slipping down to the hellmouth fast.
    Some people in Malaysia got paid by the Saudis to ship Hamza back.

  96. From this I’ve read about him- but not this clip. Also- what I read may not be accurate. It was’t very “scientifc” research on my part. I know people think that of him- but it doesn’t change what he discusses here- even in true.

  97. I like Tarek Fatah and have heard him speak before. Sun news can be quite racist but this was a good interview and explanation about Interpol’s actions.

  98. Wow there is a lot of hatred here. Why do these people move to Saudi in the first place if they love the freedoms in the US??

    Greedy maybe – like their own leaders- who rule what the Saudi leaders do and don’t do.

  99. Judge Martin threw the case out on the grounds that Elbayomy (a muslim) was obligated to attack Perce (an athiest) because of his culture and religion (ie, Islam says that Muslims cannot be offended) . Judge Martin stated that the First Amendment of the Constitution does not permit people to provoke other people. He also called Perce, the plaintiff in the case, a “doofus.” In effect, Perce was the perpetrator of the assault, in Judge Martin’s view, and Elbayomy the innocent. The Sharia law that the Muslim attacker followed trumped the First Amendment. (The incident occurred at the Mechanicsburg, Pa., Halloween parade where Ernie Perce, an atheist activist, marched as a zombie Muhammad. Talaag Elbayomy, a Muslim, attacked Perce, and he was arrested by police.)

    The Muslims here wonder why normal people dislike islam..,.
    Then Muslims wonder why we say Islam is religion of hate and violence…
    Then Muslims wonder why the Islamic world is screwed up…

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/27/pennsylvania-judge-musim-zombie-muhammad_n_1304764.html

    Saudi Arabia coming to a neighborhood near you!!

  100. He’s not a jidge in the legal sense, not legally qualified or passed the bar, he’s like a justice of peace i think, some states have em, they just take a certification test, which anyone can do, like a honorary volunteer type thing.

    and i heard he was off this position after a few people spoke their mind :-)
    I also heard the attacker was shipped out of the US ( not sure if it’s a rumor or truth but i heard INS had issues with his visa)

  101. I hear you, Radhaa, but it is almost impossible that anybody – particularly a judge, even a Muslim judge — would say something so stupid.

    The good news is that nobody had a problem with “Zombi pope”

    Volokl has a good, balanced writeup of the incident. Somehow, the whole story, particularly the judge’s version, is not quite believable.

    http://volokh.com/2012/02/24/charges-dismissed-in-pennsylvania-prosecution-for-attack-on-zombie-mohammed-atheist-parader/

    also here:

    http://atheists.org/blog/2012/02/22/muslim-attacks-atheist-muslim-judge-dismisses-case-blames-victim

    Couldn’t find any info on what kind of judge this gay is but didn’t look too hard either.

  102. Gay = guy —- Oops!!!!

    BTW, I am reading a book about the Aztecs and it has occurred to me that Islam, like the Aztecs, needs ritual human sacrifice to appease the gods. Yes, there are parallels. Hamza is being sacrificed to replenish the believers’ faith in the just order of the perfect universe.

  103. I was wondering if you had made a Freudian slip, Jay! (LOL)

  104. Oh horrors – I am outed! Actually, I am old school – you know, men are men and women are women – none of that “inner flower bursting out” stuff for me.

    I am encouraged by the Muslim response here towards this issue. Now, after we get Hamza out of trouble in Arabia, we can tackle Pennsylvania.

  105. Jay

    AB burned you. Hahahaha. funny. :)

    Ah, I see you missing the closet life already. ;)

  106. Big…
    Ouch! We can’t get anything past Carol. Does she know I am really D.B. Cooper?

    Hey, wait a minute. I am old, bald, stupid and ugly. Everybody knows, or as my female colleagues at work constantly remind me, gay men are handsome, smart, fun and sensitive. So I can’t be gay!

    Well, maybe not gay, but I could have been a good lesbian

  107. ahhhh Jay….you are a relic! (smile)

  108. lol…

    like i said, your words don’t matter. a woman from holland, one living in us of a, etc. speaking of justice, how about shedding some light on those innocent victims in guantanamo bay? i don’t read any blog about that..
    how about shedding some light on how UN is miss using its sole purpose of creation (at least the one that was told to the world, we do not know the hidden agenda behind it)
    people who mass-murdered hundreds and thousands of native americans come and teach us peace? humanity? no thank you very much..

    I did not watch the video above, but if it is advising us on what to do and what not to do with Kashghari then it is ABSOLUTELY worthless and holds no credibility. Who is he from a different part of the world to come and tell us what to do? How often do Muslims speak on your issues? are you not responsible for the hundreds and thousands being killed everyday??
    watch this documentary and you will know “Confession of the Economic Hitman”

    my point is, raise voice against the broken houses in Iraq by the west. raise voice against the innocent Afghanis killed for crimes they never committed, raise voice FOR the somalis who have nothing to eat or drink, raise voice to help vietnamese who have abnormal growth becuz of US crimes, raise voice for thousands being killed in Syria.
    no i think women driving is a bigger issue yeah? what should i call you?? you are on a completely new level of sexism.. absolutely disgusting..
    once you have justified the millions of killing of innocent people since the dominance of america, then come and talk to me about the way i think and why.

  109. @jay,

    lol i am born a Muslim and nowhere in Islam we need blood or sacrifice to appease to God. now do not tell me that book of yours by some non-Muslim jerk who knows nothing about Islam is correct and i am wrong.

    I do not care to mold Islam while presenting to you just to please you with how beautiful the religion is. Islam is what it is and people are willingly accepting it with all what it is and has.

    please do not argue on this as this was complete rubbish from your side. ask Muslims what Islam is rather than picking up books by jews or hindus.

  110. Jay… hmmm… from your writing I had always imagined you to be handsome, smart, fun and sensitive….. :mrgreen:

  111. YQ – this is a blog about Saudi Arabia. Not Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Guatanamo Bay or the UN. Sounds like you need to seek another blog for the issues you are looking for.

  112. YQ:

    How can you be born a muslim? Muslim is a person who believes in a codified religion which lays down a belief system written by a people who belief in a certain set of customs, understandings and societial norms. Thus one is not born as a belief system but rather taught a belief system. Such as I was taught fundalmental christian theology but as was not born a Christian.

    To me christian theology is based upon a barbaric and primate people trying to question their existance then placing which later formed itself it a religious belief system tailor made to uphold a primative setting of certain norms. The Abrahamic god is Yahweh which was taken from the El Eleon era. Yahweh was a lesser pagan god.

    All gods of the holy books are man crafted (with all the failings of man such as greed, lacking abilities, murderous) with sets of rules to uphold a social construct that has been systmatically decriminatory to a set of people, such as those different belief systems, women, children, and homosexuals. In addition, religion has created untold sexual abuse, physical abuse and psychological damage to people to include men throughout the ages.

  113. I need coffee this early in the morning.

    Okay so it should state:

    “existence then by placing their beliefs in writing which later formed itself into a religious belief”

  114. So why the apostasy and blasphemy laws? What are they but human sacrifice to the gods of self-esteem or paranoia? The very existence of these laws says that Muslims support the same principles espoused by Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition.

    Let me tell you, YQ, that I find this issue to be unbelievably disturbing in so many ways.

    Please answer these questions: Why must Muslims must force people to believe? Isn’t that counter-productive? Does Allah need human help? Is Allah so weak or insecure that he can’t punish them himself, here or hereafter? Does it make Muslims feel good to punish free speech and thoughts? Does persecuting others reinforce their faith? Could it be that some Muslims are not sincere but only worship Allah out of fear — and so belief and pretend belief are equally acceptable? Or is this all about Muslim egos? Or is it an instrument of fear to keep Muslims in line?

    Then there is the problem of Muslims continually using the “No compulsion” argument when these laws and customs exist everywhere, when they are a part of Islamic jurisprudence. What does that tell us? It seems to indicate that Muslims are ignorant, indifferent, hypocrites and/or liars.

    Then there is the whole issue of what the young man actually said… I have yet to see a Muslim analyze the content of the three offending tweets. When the said that “he didn’t like certain things” that Mohammed had done, what does that mean? Has anybody asked Hamza?

    You say “ask Muslims what Islam is… ” Yes, you are right. It is proper to ask Muslims about Islam — BUT it is also very necessary to ask critics about Islam. That is how one makes intelligent, informed decisions. I would also like to point out that critics of Islam – Jews and Hindus – and people like Unicorn Girl, use Islam’s own writings to criticize it (and the actions of Muslims), so why are you blaming them?

    I believe that Islam and Islamic societies have very real issues that cause pain and suffering, and these are directly linked to their religion — but because of this “don’t ask, don’t think” mentality – and climate of fear — these issues cannot be addressed or solved, so nothing changes.

    Anyway, YQ, I have no problem with you voicing your opinion on this issue. I have studied Islam and I find many things to be troubling. If I lived in an Islamic society I would have to be a hypocrite or suffer for being honest. Is this what you want? Does this make you happy? Does it make society better by silencing people who say things that others don’t like?

    Tell me, YQ, based upon the hadith, do you think your prophet ever did anything that was improper?

    You take care.

  115. Just wanted to see if YQ had answer my questions, or at least the last one.

    AA, Boy are you wrong. I am pretty average really. You know, as I look back some 60 years, I realize how much importance I gave to external appearances, mistakenly, particularly up to about 30 or so. I missed out on some good things because I was too blind to see the obvious.

  116. Jay – I know exactly what you mean! If the folks that knew me 15 – 20 years ago saw me now they probably would not recognize me or know me!

  117. I hate to say it but a certain wisdom comes with old age. One is less reckless, less given to passion, less reliant on appearances. Of course this is not always true, hence the “no fool like an old fool: saying.

    YQ, where are you?

  118. @jay, sorry this blog is about saudi arabia and not religions… wont discuss religion with you here !!

    – Muslims do not force anyone to believe, we believe in what we believe and we just inform you of our belief and the religion of God that will give us a better life after death InshaAllah..
    – please watch your words when you say such stuff, ALLAH JALLAH JALAALAHU is powerful enough to make seven heavens and the earth, angels who have extreme power are creatures of Allah. HIS power is unmatchable, infinte, and unimaginable. If youre child is misbehaving and you do not hurt him, does that mean he is more powerful than you? NO it only means that you have given him sometime to think and apologize over his actions. this world is a TEST for the believers and the non-believers.
    – if freedom of speech means disrespecting someone knowing how many people follow him and will be offended with this act. then allow us to express our freedom of speech as well =). plus, if he has no values to live with, born in a Muslim society he knows what Islamic boundaries are. as a Muslim, worshipping Muslim, we must follow them regardless. so knowing the consequences of such an act n still committing is a sign of stupidity and pure seek of attention of the west.

    i have answered enough, considering the fact that this is a SAUDI blog and not religious, i will not argue about this anymore since i do not argue about religion (avoid it). it is not because i have no answers but it is a waste of time, useless.

  119. YQ, if Allah’s power is unmatchable, infinite, and unimaginable, then the bloodthirsty Saudis should leave it to Allah to punish Hamza, if she thinks she should she will mete out something nasty to Hamza. If on the other hand, she does not do anything nasty to Hamza, then you Muslims should learn from this.
    The lesson would be that Allah does not care who insults whom.

    Moreover, if you really think that there is this invisible super powerful being called Allah, then you should be out there demanding Hamza’s release so Allah can meet out her punishment.
    If any.

  120. I believe that any god or prophet should be left to care for themselves. If they are offended over something, let them take care of the issue. God doesn’t need me going around punishing people for stepping on his ego.

    I also believe that any god or prophet that isn’t big enough to deal with criticism or doubt isn’t big enough for my respect or worship, either. if these gods or prophets can’t stand up to criticism, what is the use of perpetuating them?

  121. Hear Hear Lauren

  122. Where is the proof for all these almighty powerful invisible friends?
    All these gods seem incredibly puny to me.
    They can never do anything themselves, they always need the ground crew to do their hunting and killing for them.

    I agree Lauren, even if I did believe in invisible sky daddies, their books and doctrines are so stupid, nasty and immoral that I would never worship them. If I believed they existed I would despise them.
    Including their prophets.

  123. Here is a good video, the first part is about the atrocities done in the name of Islam, which are horrible and ridiculous at the same time, and the second part is a lot of people, Muslims and nonmuslims speaking out for freedom of speech.

  124. And now here in the USA people are placing restrictions on free speech under the guise of protection. New laws being passed because of so called bullying.Internet site being mined for hate speech with arrests being made without true cause. Expansion of laws as to how near you can be to protest some politician because of so called protection. Does fear of persecution work? Yes, it seems to have worked in the USA, when news media only choose to criticize those they feel safe in doing so, and others believe these things make them safer. Loss of our freedoms bit by bit, this video should remind us in the USA how precious our Bill of Rights is.

  125. Very good video, Aafke! Those who disallow freedom of speech and thought and questioning do so because they are cowardly and fearful people who can’t function unless they are bullying others.

  126. So has anyone heard more on him? Has he gotten out or still in prison?

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 1,147 other followers

%d bloggers like this: