Saudi Arabia: Western Women – Don’t Roll Over for Your Saudi

 

This post is directed to the Western woman who has fallen in love with a Saudi while he is outside of his home country.

  A Saudi man can be the most charming and most gracious man when he is courting a woman.  He has words which make the woman feel like the most cherished and pampered Princess.  He will tell her that there is no one like her and he will not have a life without her. He will show consideration and manners of a Prince to her family and friends.  They will all congratulate her for finding such a likeable man.

The young woman is very proud to have such a man as her partner.  He is charming, handsome, articulate and more than anything she has ever dreamed in a man.  She probably will not question him too deeply and take all of his words to heart, including how he will love her forever and someday carry her to Saudi Arabia.

She probably does not know a lot about life in Saudi Arabia and may imagine it as a country where all are rich and she will live like a Royal Princess in a magnificent villa and ride in a chauffeured driven Rolls Royce.  After all, her Saudi wears the latest fashions, drives a new sports car and never seems to worry about money as they go out together to all the trendy places.  Why should she expect anything different in Saudi Arabia? 

Therefore it is not surprising that at some point this western girl and her Saudi segue to an intimate relationship. With this new intimacy comes a greater awareness on her part that when he finishes his schooling or training, he will likely be returning to Saudi Arabia.  When she brings up the subject to him, he carelessly tosses her worries away.  “Don’t worry,” he says, “You are the love of my life.  I will never leave you alone.”

She may choose to become less careful with birth control and months before his planned return to his home, she breaks the words to him that she is pregnant.  Instead of the reaction she expects, his body becomes rigid and he questions her about birth control.  He is not overjoyed like she had hoped and feels him starting to pull away from her.  Is it any surprise that ultimately he returns to Saudi Arabia and she does not hear from him as she remains behind single and pregnant?

If you are a young Western woman and in a relationship with a Saudi, don’t think that this could never be you.  This is happening.  I receive pleas from young women who are pregnant by a Saudi who has returned back to the Kingdom.  Most of these women want to be reunited with their Saudi.  They are sure there is some misunderstanding or that he has been unable to contact her since he has returned.  While it may sound harsh, I say remove the blinders!  If a young woman is not hearing from her Saudi since he has returned to the Kingdom, it is likely by his choice.

Some of these women want to find a way that they can go to Saudi Arabia.  They feel that if they are there he will reconsider and want to be with her.  Again, a woman should not run after a man like that!  If he did not make a commitment once he knew a woman was pregnant with his child, then the woman is better off making a separate life for herself and her child far away from Saudi Arabia. 

The last thing a foreign woman should want is to go to a strange country where she will not have any say about the lifestyle and treatment she and her child may receive.  Consider this, a Saudi may be pressured to get his child to the Kingdom.  The young woman and her child may arrive but then she may shortly find herself shown on the next flight out without her child.  Yes; this can happen!  Be suspicious if a Saudi man who for all intents had abandoned a woman with his child has a sudden change of heart.  I understand a woman wants to believe with all her heart that he has seen the need to change his ways but that may not be the case.  If a Saudi family learned of a child, the young man may be pressured for the child to be brought to Saudi where it can be raised as a good Muslim.  A western woman who gives birth to a child out of wedlock is unlikely to be accepted by a Saudi family.

This advice may sound harsh but it is stated with the best intentions for the woman in mind.

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134 Responses

  1. Thank you for this wonderful post!!!! This is a large problem with western women becoming pregnant by Saudi students, and have them turn and run away never to be seen or heard from again. This is a must read for any western woman currently involved with a Saudi student.

  2. I have so many things I could say, I don’t know where to begin.

    There are two Saudi men I know who would not do this to a woman. They would take the time to court her slowly, get to know her, and would want to make sure they were financially stable before committing. Children would not come into the picture until much later after they had been married for a few years with a good job and were ready for children. They would want their families to be happy with their bride, but would stand up for her if they really loved her. One has told me he does not care what ethnicity his bride is, and I believe him because he is an honest, good person. Please keep in mind I would not have said these things about my ex even when I thought I was in love with him.

    That said, these seem to be the exceptions. My advice, as far as pregnancy goes, is don’t get pregnant unless you are ready to be a single mother and/or are married to your Saudi, have met his family, have discussed life after university and both agree on it, have dealt with visa issues associated with it, etc. If he isn’t real with you about life after university, then I wouldn’t trust him. If you’re moving slowly, then I could see where this wouldn’t be discussed until later. However, if you are in a sexual relationship with him I would expect that it is okay to discuss the future and possibility of children.

    As for the phone calls, my ex talked to his family nearly every day via Skype. When he went home for Ramadan, the internet magically stopped working while he was there. Later on, after we had broken up and he had agreed to teach me Arabic, the internet magically worked fine each and every day. Sound fishy? It did to me!

    And yes, I would be very careful where custody issues are concerned. If the father of my future children tried to take away a child of mine via kidnapping, I am not sure what I would be willing to do to keep that child with me. However, I don’t have to worry about that because I chose an honorable, loving man this time who I love with all my heart and feels the same way about me. Just sayin’…

    If I found myself pregnant by a Saudi man and the Saudi man had gone back home and wasn’t speaking to me, there is a strong chance I wouldn’t tell him about the child if I thought he would seek custody or resort to kidnapping.

    Saudi men remember: “Western” women are a bit crazy sometimes, especially where children and child custody are concerned. ;)

  3. After reading StrangeOne’s conclusion, I think there should be a post warning Saudi men about western women! :D

    Actually my Syrian friend told me a few years back that they were told to avoid marrying western women. The reasons are rather funny.

  4. Oh, come on! What reasons?

  5. Maybe it’s not such a bad idea to lock the western woman in a all-female univ campus till she’s educated and selfz-reliant and probably keep her locked till she acquires some useful skill :-)

    self-respect, individuality, self suffieciency, self-worth seem to be in short supply with today’s youngsters.

    On a lighter note another young lady -in-love with a saudi came to me worried about her job prospects if an when she married and went to KSA – sh’e a Drama major :-) no disrespect to the fine arts majors but i had to tell her job prospects innt he US itself are pretty bleak…. seriously Drama is now a Major???? why? how? to what end?
    In her case she’s much better off marryingher saudi and trying to make it in KSA.. well i didn’t tell her that. but again i’m a jaded old woman by their standards.

  6. @radhaa,
    I don’t know how the Drama major will look to her Saudi’s family, but there is always teaching English or some other subject, right?

    My Saudi-ex didn’t think there was much in the way of job prospects for me with a Master’s in an Apparel/Textile related field- other than teaching English, of course. (And in his mind, why wouldn’t I want that? It pays good money! *rolling my eyes* )

  7. Aafke, such things as western women may want to work outside the home, not want to have lots of children even if you (the man) do, they won’t fix you tea when you get home from work and want to put up your feet after a long day. Syrian/Arab women, on the other hand, know how to serve their menfolk and treat them like kings, blah, blah, blah.

    I think their Arab mommas warned them that those liberated western women wouldn’t roll over for them (to use Carol’s choice of words). :)

    Thankfully, my Syrian friend’s mentality has taken a pretty good shift since he’s been hanging out with me. I’m such a corrupter! ;)

  8. I live near a university and have known three cases of this, two of the women personally. While I am very committed to Muslims find a place in modern western society, I get very upset when these guys play a woman for a fool, get her pregnant and so on.

    I know the moderator of another forum, who married a Saudi National, had two children here, but when 9/11 happened felt the only way to insure her husbands safety was to flee back to KSA. I do not know how well she has done, but her girls are probably in their late teens by now.

    I hope that her marriage has worked out and that she gets along with his family.

    There is a woman in Akron, Ohio who married a Turkish man, had a child and later he took the boy back to Turkey, divorced her and now she is fighting in court to get him back.

    It is my hope that these horror stories are just a small element of the total and that for most of these mixed society relationships, good things can happen.

    Just today, a Saudi friend of mine said that he had an American girl friend. It is my hope that he will do the honorable thing with her.

    Salaam

    Gwendolyn

  9. This can be a something common now with just a muslim comes to usa for studies and finds some one .

    This can even be when a wester travels to east or elsewhere and meets some one both are nive and get to know each other …

    and with any religion or culture .

  10. This article has a lot of truth to it, it applies to more than just Saudis though. It applies to the Gulf countries as well. Even though he is away from his home and family, the family is still waiting for him when he finishes his studies. So the free life from their peers are not applicable in the west. Family pressure to adhere to customs and tradition can be overbearing, and open disregard brings retrobution from their family and peers. To Saudis and many gulf people traditionally they are tribal and marry tribal. This is the historical for them. Marrying an Arab from distant lands (Morrocco, Lebanon) will raise an eyebrow, marrying a westerner and showing up on the doorstep without warning is similar to throwing a cat into a dog pack.

    Not to say that a marriage can’t happen. If you want my advice to make sure the Saudi is on the upside to this, he will have to introduce you to the family and maybe your parents to his, before anything will begin. If he does, it is genuine.

    So if he hasn’t set an introduction or you haven’t talked to them. He is going to disappear when he gets on that plane and you will not hear from him again

  11. I have known Saudi young men who, like many young men the world over, gain much of their sexual experience with western girls, then go home to marry a so-called “good girl”…My advice? Don’t have a sexual relationship with them if you want a long term committment. Just sayin’…

  12. Has there been a case where a Saudi man has succeeded in kidnapping his illegitimate child? Saudi men have illegitimate children with maids and prostitutes within Saudi Arabia all the time, and the law doesn’t recognize them as the child’s father – which means no child support. DNA tests aren’t used, unless they’ve changed that recently. It doesn’t surprise me to learn there’s a huge double standard, but it does seem odd that Saudi courts will recognize him as the father, or not, based solely on whether or not he wants to be recognized as such.

    I know accidents happen, but it’s hard for me to feel too sorry for a woman who has a years-long relationship resulting in pregnancy without ever once googling “Saudi Arabia” and realizing that there might, possibly, be some problems with his promises to bring her back there with him – starting with his assumption that she’ll want to go!

  13. @sunny side up
    I doubt that there would be a case of kidnapping an illegitamate child. This would bring major conflicts within the family. The goverment family card which lists the family members would be hard to ammend with this child. Unless you know someone high up in the department of civil affairs, can get your wife to agree that this child is hers in writing, and not let a family member tip off the government. It would be possible then.
    Without this family card ammended, there is no way he could keep the kid without being discovered.

  14. It is so sad with all the other progress women have made in Western countries (the US), they still fall for this load of crap, not just form Saudi men, but from men in general. And then to resort to trying to trap him into marriage? Are we still raising our daughters to be that gullible??

  15. Susanne, I bet you are!
    Although I don’t see why I shouldn’t make tea or something for my favorite pet when he comes home. I love spoiling my pets.

    I would think it highly unlikely that a Saudi man could kidnap his illegitimate kid and bring it home, or that his family would be happy about it, bit difficult keeping up the facade of the perfect Muslim if you have illegitimate kids running around. I would think it more likely they abandon mother and child as soon as possible and forget about them as soon as possible and definitely not tell the folks at home about it.
    They do it all over the globe btw. I remember an article in Arab news some years ago, about some people worrying about the many children from Saudi fathers abandoned in other countries and wanting to something to make them legitimate. Nothing came out of it of course.

    I agree with sunniside up, how can you be in such a ”deep and solid” relationship (that’s what the woman thinks) and not go to the internet and get some information? Bedu and Susie of Arabia would be about the first sites on the first page and your eyes would be opened immediately.

  16. If the man wants the child- he could potentially marry the woman-get the paperwork sorted- and return with both wife and child. And then send the wife out and divorce her.

    Any man that dumps a pregnant woman- is unworthy father material. And it would be a mistake to have things “work out” with such an unreliable person. So never legally fix things so he can take your child- and if you can get a lump sum of money to invest for his child. Don’t say things like, “I don’t want his money”. You may not- but his child is entitled to some of it. Get it if you can.

  17. Totally agree with Sandy. of course you and the child should get a good sum of money from the father who after he’s had his fun won’t lift a finger to take care of his child.
    You are being a bad mother to your child if you don’t stand up for it, especially against a father who is a louse.

  18. @Sandy “Any man that dumps a pregnant woman is unworthy father material”

    I don’t think that’s a fair generalization, though it does apply to the situation being discussed here.

    I’m not a fan of Saudi culture, as anyone who reads my blog will know, but I don’t think a woman who purposely uses a child as a pawn to fix a relationship she fears is failing is necessarily any more fit to raise a baby than her partner, particularly if he was clear about not wanting one, and she “oopsed” him on purpose.

  19. The father could have elected not to have sex. Sex can result in children, every time, birthcontrol can fail without the woman’s intent. If a man is not ready to take responsibility for his children, produced by him having sex then he is unworthy.

  20. @SunniSideUp,
    That would make the mother also unworthy parent material- but doesn’t make the man any better. I can see the wording could be made more clear. It isn’t dumping the woman that is necessarily bad (though it usually is in these cases) but dumping the baby is inexcusable however it happened.

    Regardless of how it happens he is still a father and has responsibiities to the child. And the woman is making a big mistake if she gives him custody in his country- unless she is willing to give up her child completely.

  21. We should be asking why american/western young girls who meet these saudi guys usually at uni (where they are supposed to be getting a “smart”) are falling for these games and these types of men..anyone with a brain cell will know its not just saudis that do this. Why do these girls think so low of themselves to fall for the player type? why don’t they get some background info on his culture/religion..why don’t they ask more questions.?? Why don’t they demand things instead of take the back seat and accept everything happening? ..so if none of these questions are taking place and a girl happens to get pregnant then i defiantly don’t feel sorry for her.

  22. @Bella, Because women believe liars doesn’t excuse the liars. And if an American guy does this she can take him to court and make him take responsibility for the child. Also, very few American men lie in the way described here.

    Yes of course she should ask more questions. I still feel sorry for her- and I especially feel sorry for the child. Anyway this blog will help give these women information about the culture/religion of these men. And what people are learning isn’t very nice.

    Interesting you seem to have more to say about the women who believed a Muslim man when he said he’d do the honorable thing- than the Muslim man behaving like a skunk.

  23. bella, to add to Sandy’s excellent comment, there is also something called the ”truth bias”.
    The truth bias puts honest, ethical and fair dealing people in a disadvantage to wicked lying egocentric people. What happens is that people do project their own character on other people, even if you know people think differently, one tends to judge people according to ones own character.
    With the truth bias you see that the more honest, the more ethical a person is, the easier they are to deceive. An honest decent human being will consider all these lies of love and attachment as the truth.
    An ethical high minded human being will consider that as they themselves would never hurt another human being so deeply with such despicable lies, it would be impossible that the person they like so much could be so low and despicably unethical.
    That puts them at a disadvantage against somebody who is scheming, has no morals, no ethics, and has only his selfish pleasure in mind.

    There are certain known facts: these men so easily leave their babies behind, and they have been found out to use lies, they themselves prove to us that their morals and ethics are of a very low quality.

  24. Aafke…

    Only yesterday I was telling this exact thing to someone…how people tend to judge others from their frame of reference. That if someone is not a cheat, they don’t expect their significant other to cheat on them. Often they don’t find out until they are slapped in the face with it because they are not thinking in that frame of mind and would never do it themselves.

  25. so women dont think they get preggy before marriage why do they sleep before marriage ?

  26. seems the moderator has left the blog !! who wants to be the next!

  27. @Sandy – Ok, that makes more sense. I just didn’t think it was fair to say that a man who ends a romantic relationship with a woman who’s pregnant with his child MUST be a horrible person, no matter what the woman may have done.

    I fully agree that most, if not all, men who do this are jerks, but even if he’s in the small minority of non-jerks, pretty much anything he does at this point is wrong. He could stay in the US (whether he wants to or not), and effectively abandon his birth family, to marry a woman he’d really rather not be with. Or, he could stay US and not marry her, but he’d have to pay child support for a baby he’ll rarely see, and whose upbringing he’ll have very little authority over. If he’s not willing to spend the rest of his life in the US, this isn’t a reasonable option. If he told his girlfriend he intended to return to Saudi Arabia, and she agreed to go with him, then I can’t blame him for being unwilling to change that just because she got pregnant – especially if he has reason to believe she was lying to him about birth control. I wouldn’t marry someone who did that, either!

    He could (maybe – remember the rules about marriage to foreigners!) take her and the kid back to Saudi Arabia, but only if he marries her (whether he wants to or not). Then, if they divorce and he won’t let her take the kid back to America, he’s a horrible monster, even though (in this scenario) their relationship was based on the woman’s willingness to live in Saudi Arabia. But if he lets her take the kid back to America, then he’s ‘abandoned’ it, and the end result is exactly the same. The guy really can’t win.

    Obviously it would be better if he handled it in a more straightforward way, but it sounds like there’s plenty of immaturity to go around. I just don’t think it’s fair to paint the man as an evil villain and the woman as an innocent victim, because the truth is almost never that simple.

  28. @sunni side up – If you have a child – however that child may have been concieved, unprotected sex, cheating, lying about birth control, etc., etc., As long as the Child has your DNA – both the man and woman are responsible for the child. Anything less than that is abandonment.
    So irrespective of if the saudi male loses or the american woman loses or whatever , they MUST step up and it could be in any way or form, they could decide to give the child up, decide to abort the child, decide that the child is raised by a stranger whatever the means.

    If the saudi father wants to marr someone else and live in saudi , As long as he monentarily supports his child or adopts the child out or settles the child somehow, he is not absolved of any responsibility.

    No one should be forced to marry because they have a child, a marriage needs more than a child to work but if you were willing to concieve a child outside marriage you should be able to support it outside marrige too. irrespective if if your mom or family or anyone like it or not.

    and if a man abandons a pregnant woman – he is scum :-) . even if she lied about birth control and “oopsed” him, what happened to his god given brains? no protection available for men? if you don’t want you offsprings populating the world, protect yourself.

    Most parents give this speech to their offsprings – male or female. ” DO not depend on someone else for your protection – it is the most idiotic thing to do “.

  29. I was going to say what Radhaa says. Why not use condoms? You should use condoms anyway, Why do all these people have unprotected sex? (I mean condoms, stops babies, stops std’s)
    How utterly irresponsible and stupid!
    Anyway, Radhaa said it all.

  30. @StrangeOne – I didn’t think one could major in “Drama” , i would think one would major in something a bit more employable and if they loved drama so much they would minor in it or perhaps study it as a hobby/ eve course etc., .

    But then again my daughter tells me i’m biased and that drama is as good a major as say engineering and that interest is all that matters.. oh well who am i to argue with today’s youth. go for it .

  31. Since i’
    m being so harsh anyway today let me just say – both the woman and man who get pregnant on purpose or otherwise, inthe hopes of catching a rich man or in the hopes of just having fun are both incredibly selfish people – do they ever think of the child – before he/she is concieved.

    Why has bringing a child into this world taken so lightly.
    For both the men and women , you don’t have a stable future, you have cultural differences, you have no intention of being together , or you may want to leave the country and not hurt your parents whatever — did you guys for even 1 moment think of the child ?

    I may come across as harsh but to me it sounds like youngsters who do this these days are terribly irresponsible, irrational and very negligiant. i don’t know what that says for our future.

  32. Btw, the truth can really be that simple.
    It is quite possible that there are women who have been entirely deceived and lied to. Why not?
    There are too many women around who have been deceived, some even unknowingly married temporarily, as advised per fatwa of Bin Baz, to not know that the Saudi men are less ethical than western men. In general.
    And not every woman who gets pregnant is lying about birth control. I suppose every woman who is raped is lying too? That is exactly the misogynist view of women which is the root of evil in countries like Saudi Arabia.
    Even if you do use birth control, no form of birth control is 100%.
    Except sterilization. Any adult person will realize this.
    Sorry, you cannot put the majority of the blame to all the women. On the contrary: the facts speak highly against the behavior of Saudi men. And the percentage of Saudi men who behave like this compared to other men.

    And apart from being evil, selfish, immoral egotists, I think there are a lot of Saudi men who are carried away with their feelings, the chance to finally interact with women, falling in love, finally having a girlfriend, hopefully have some sex at last, etc. But in the end they lack the strength of character to act in a moral manner, the pressures of family, family expectations, government restrictions, make any long lasting commitment very difficult.
    This lack of backbone and strength of character is important, not to blame the men they can’t help being weak, but for the girlfriends to realize that their men will not act for them, stand up for them or make unpopular decisions against their family for them. And that in the end the result is the same: they’ve wasted several years, are heartbroken, and maybe have a child to support for the rest of their lives, and maybe quite diminished their own chances in the future.

    If they are lucky.
    If they are unlucky they get married and get stuck in KSA.

  33. @radhaa – Why is ok for women to place their children for adoption because they don’t want to raise them (perhaps due to social stigma, family disapproval, or problems with the other parent), but it’s ‘abandonment’ when a man does the same thing for the same reasons? I have nothing against adoption – I think it’s the best thing for the child in many cases – but determining whether or not a man is ‘scum’ by whether a woman places his child for adoption or chooses to raise it herself doesn’t seem fair. He has no control over that, and would probably prefer that adopted it out.

    If the situation were reversed, and the man swapped the woman’s birth control pills for aspirin because he wanted a child and she didn’t, would anyone be defending it? Would anyone blame her for wanting nothing to do with him afterward, or for ‘abandoning’ the kid by placing it up for adoption after it was born? If he insisted on keeping it and raising it himself, would people be this judgmental of her for wanting nothing to do with any of it? I really, really doubt it. I don’t know exactly what I’d do in that situation, but I can guarantee that I WOULDN’T marry him and live happily ever after, no matter what promises I’d made before he did that. I don’t think many people would.

  34. I agree, nobody seems to think about the life, the new being they are bringing into the world.
    Incredible.
    I have no children because I always thought that responsibility was too great. Not just for me, but the fact of creating a life and making a person who then has to go through life. I was never that happy and to force somebody else to go through the whole life thing just because you ”want have a baby” always seemed too stupidly selfish to me. I will not do it. besides there are way too many humans on this overpopulated planet.

  35. Sunni side up, I cannot imagine how you can make such silly comparisons and expect an answer.
    Really you talk like the typical misogynist male chauvinist p*g.

    Stop trying to defend the immoral behavior of Saudi men abroad, they are hypocrites and liars, is that not something to be upset about? Or do you think it’s ok to sow your seeds? Amongst the infidels of course, the ”pure” Muslim ”Jewels” have te be kept pure and protected.

    Why don’t you care about the children these guys leave behind with no care or no responsibility? Do you really think the bit of fun and sex for Saudi men is more important than a child left behind? And they do it to their Saudi wives and children too. Who will end up in an even worse situation than the western girlfriends/wives.

    Don’t you think this proves there is a great failure in the bringing up of Saudi men?
    Don’t you think that bringing up men to be so irresponsible, so selfish, so immoral, so unethical, so hypocritical, so devoid of honor is a problem in Saudi Arabia?
    Don’t you think this is worrying and should be addressed?

  36. @aafke – The original post mentioned the woman “choosing to be less careful about birth control”. While I agree that birth control is, morally, a shared responsibility, the practical consequences are nearly 100% the woman’s problem, so common sense would suggest that she should be more concerned with it than he should. An adult woman who grew up in a sexually open society, yet still fails to recognize that fact and behave accordingly, is responsible for the consequences to herself – why shouldn’t she be?

    I didn’t say it was all the woman’s fault – merely that it wasn’t always all the man’s. Like I said before, if she got to the point of planning to marry him without ever once googling “Saudi Arabia”, she’s a moron, plain and simple. Stupidity has consequences, and sometimes pregnancy and single motherhood are among them. That’s life, and it’s not news to anyone who grew up in the US.

    I’m not sure why you brought up rape, or what it has to do with anything. I can’t think of any reason an American woman who was raped by a Saudi would want him in her or her child’s life, but if you had one in mind when you wrote that, feel free to explain it.

    Your implication that women can’t be faulted for falling for this stuff, because it’s somehow in their nature to be stupid and naive, is far more misogynistic than anything I’ve said, and about on par with the crap the Saudi establishment churns out. That’s exactly the logic they use, too – that women are the ‘weaker sex’ physically and intellectually, so it’s not fair to expect them to understand these things the way a man would.

  37. I say that you are putting the blame on the women, so as to excuse the men. I say you are wrong. While women might lie, make mistakes, or get unwillingly pregnant, it does not follow that the men have no part in creating a baby. Men know exactly what to do to avoid it as well as women. Besides, you should always use a condom besides other forms of birth control to avoid std’s.
    So yes, they all seem pretty irresponsible.
    But you seem to be bend on protecting the Saudi men, and blaming the women. I think we women get that already from men, we don’t need for women to help the misogynists.

    But I bet if it was Saudi women made pregnant by Western men you’d be all out to make out the Saudi women to be blameless.
    I sense a slight bias here.

  38. @aafke – I think the children left behind aren’t likely to turn out any worse than they would if they were raised by the same Saudi family that produced their father, which is why I can’t bring myself to get too upset about it either way. Are you saying I’m wrong, and they’d be better off if he took them to Saudi Arabia and raised them there?

    Of course there are major problems with the way men (and women) are raised in Saudi Arabia. Unless I missed something, that wasn’t the topic of this post. Nor was rape, for that matter.

  39. I wish you could stop creating straw man arguments in respond of my comments. Or maybe you should try to read them better.
    As it is you seem to be in a different conversation altogether.

  40. You’re entitled to your opinion, but I don’t particularly like Saudis, for many of the reasons you’ve described. I just get tired of seeing stories from ‘damsels in distress’ claiming to have been ‘used and abused’ in what was an entirely consensual relationship. I’d say the same thing to a Saudi woman, though it happens less often.

    According to my own beliefs, he shouldn’t have been having sex outside of marriage with anyone, but I don’t believe I have to right to force those beliefs on others, so my thoughts on that are irrelevant. As you said, everyone knows what the possible consequences of unprotected sex are, though to be fair, Westerners of either gender know it far better than Saudis, since we’re taught it in school and they’re left to piece it together from experience and dirty movies.

    I never said anything he did was ‘right’, merely that it’s unfair to demonize him while holding up the woman as his ‘innocent victim’. And to answer your other question, Arab women play that card all the time, and I roll my eyes and silently curse them for playing into the hands of those who make it their life’s mission to convince everyone that women are less intelligent and less capable of making reasonable decisions than men are.

  41. Wow so many different opinions here!!! It bothers me that there seams to be so much blame put on us women for not knowing our Saudi better. I am not sure where it says on google that if a Saudi man who has sex with you before marriage he is going to leave you. One thing to remember is that these men travel to these places where sex before marriage docent mean the man wont marry you. Another thing is that regardless of what went on in a couples bedroom when a child becomes involved and the man runs away it is devastating to these women!!!! It is inexcusable for these men to have these children and return home to pretend theses children don’t exist. Saudi women save them selves for marriage and they deserve the same. Now imagine Saudi women you find down the line that the student you married had a child and had lived a lie to you after you saved yourself for him? Is that fair to you? Would you still blame the silly western women for believing the Saudi mans lies?

  42. My logic is simple: if it’s not wrong for a woman to do it, then it’s not wrong for a man to do it. I don’t like double standards, regardless of which gender they work in favor of. I’m sorry you seem to have such a problem with that. You could just as easily spin it to say the Saudi man was the innocent victim of the experienced Western seductress, and I’m sure many do – that’s no less ridiculous. There may be cases towards either extreme, but the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

    Speaking of straw men… where did your question about rape come from?

  43. @SunniSideUp

    I get what you are saying and I sort of appreciate the logic, but here’s my take on what goes wrong with this argument. Of course, a guy who end a romantic relationship with a woman who’s pregnant with his child, but it doesn’t remove his responsibility to support the child. The only absolute way out of this, for a man, is to assume 100% responsibility over birth control if the thought of a child is unwanted. Yes, it is unfair and un-equal in a sense. But I feel it is misplaced to want to apply equality-based thinking to the situation that’s inherently unequal.

    Women bear the brunt of carrying, delivering and caring for the child. There’s no way to outsource this to the father, especially in the early years. Men can’t get pregnant, give birth or breastfeed. It’s all on us. Unfair to women? Maybe. But that’s how biology ruled.

    For this burden, we women get undivided authority over what happens to the fetus once it is conceived. We can abort if we want. Carry to term if we want. Men have no part of this decision. Yes, they “should”, if part of a couple, but the bottom line is that they can’t force a woman to abort, and you can’t force her to carry to term if she doesn’t wish it. Unfair to men? Maybe. But that’s how biology ruled.

    Men should realize that once their sperm meets the egg, they have NO way to influence what happens next. Because of this, men unwilling to have children should practice 100% error-free birth control – because the stakes of what happens if they don’t are so high. And if they don’t, they really can’t complain about having to support their child for the next 18 years.

  44. @SaudiChildren – Actually, Google probably would tell you that, but what I meant was that a Western woman involved with a Saudi who’d done even a minimal amount of research would know about the restrictions on women there, and would be hesitant to move there. She’d ask ‘her Saudi’ serious questions about job prospects, family expectations, living arrangements, etc. I’m sure some do, and are lied to, but plenty don’t – they get caught up in the fantasy of their Prince Charming without bothering to check their facts.

    If I were a Saudi woman who found out my Saudi husband wasn’t a virgin, and better yet, had a kid? I’d be angry with him for lying to me, but that would be between me and him – who he slept with is pretty much irrelevant, unless I knew her personally. And, yeah, I’d think he’s a jerk – I said in my first comment that pretty much all men who do this are jerks. However, I don’t view virginity as ‘saving oneself for one’s spouse’ – most who do it for religious, rather than social, reasons view it as a God’s law, not an ‘extra bonus’ for some guy.

  45. What is wrong is the abandonment of the children not necessarily the intimate issues that are different with each couple. I obviously have no standing arguing the “morals” but the end result with these children now with no father’s different story.

  46. @NN – You have some good points. I was writing from the standpoint that this hypothetical pregnancy wasn’t really ‘accidental’ on the woman’s part, because that was mentioned in the post. Also, most Muslims don’t agree with elective abortion being an option – there’s no practical way of preventing it, but arguing it with someone who doesn’t share your views isn’t likely to convince them that you’re right.

    The only issue I have is that when I asked what I thought was a reasonable question: “Seeing as he doesn’t want to stay in the US and probably can’t anyway, and he can’t take her and the kid to Saudi Arabia without marrying her, what do you actually want him to do?” the answers I saw could be summed up as “Stay out of the kid’s life, but send money, because it’s all his fault in the first place.” I just don’t think that’s quite fair.

  47. I think nothing excuses the men’s behaviour. BUT women are the ones that pay the heaviest consequences (other than the children of course) and they should be very careful. Not just with Saudi men with any man unless they want to have a child. Bottom line sex can always lead to children.

    I also think women buy into the fairy tale Prince come save me, take care of me, true love stuff too often.

    Love is NOT enough for a marriage. We lie to our children when we let them think this. And a baby never strengthens a shaky situation.

  48. @SunniSideUp

    I understand how this answer may seem unfair, but again, this is how biology ruled. If a man has unprotected sex or relies on the woman to prevent pregnancy, he encounters the risk of creating a fetus over the life or death of which he will have no control. What I would want him to do is practice birth control. Religiously. Hahah.

    So the answer to your very reasonable question is this. The guy rolled the dice by having unprotected sex. Someone got pregnant and had a baby. So the guy will pay the price for the mistake of not preventing pregnancy he did not want. The price is 18 years of child support, or the reputation of an asshole. I know these choices aren’t necessarily awesome. But them’s the facts.

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think he ought to stay out of the kid’s life. He can make arrangements to spend time with the child that doesn’t require being married to his/her mother.

  49. It is good that a man would want contact with his son. However, now that the woman is with child, will he help support her? If the child goes to Saudia for a visit, will he return her or him?

    We have a clash of cultures here. Whose responsibility is it to make sure that there is no pregnancy? I say it is up to both, because birth control pills do not always work.

    When a baby is made and the father is absent, this is bad. It reflects poorly on men.

  50. @sunni side up – I never said it’s ok for women to put the child up for adoption alone.. I said it should be deicded by both, if she’s pregnant and doesn’t want the child but doesn’t want to abort, she can either offer it up to him to raise and provide child support to him or give it up for adoption if he refuses. If he doesn’t want to raise the child, then he must provide for it ( child support) or both raise the child or abort it.

    If a man substitutes the woman’s birth control pills, and she doesn’t want the child, she is free to abort it. but if not she can choose to give birth and have him raise it…

    Either way all i’m saying is be it man or woman ,it is wrong to concieve a child ( in whatever situation – excepting rape where i think the man should be castrated :-) ) and dump the child or the partner.

  51. I also don’t think a saudi man will go to the extent of making babies especially if e has plans to flee :-)

  52. I think a woman can always abort when a man exchanges her birth control pills (does that really happen?) A very weird concept really!

    Pregnancy and giving birth are a heavy and dangerous burdens on a woman’s body. Nobody has the right to tell a woman she should go through with it.’
    Besides a very close bond usually forms between the mother and child during pregnancy, giving it away to a man who already proved he is not honest might not be an option.

  53. Not only have the men their own responsibility. And again, if somebody wants unprotected sex he is not responsible. (nor is the woman)
    But there is another problem you all seem to have forgotten, the sort of men we are talking about are also liars. They lie about their intentions, they claim she is the love of his live, for all eternity, they will spend the rest of their lives together, get married, etc.
    Those are lies. That makes them more culpable at any time than the woman who thinks he speaks the truth and she is in a stable long lasting (eternal) relationship.

  54. I agree with NN, If a saudi male gets someone pregnant ( by choice or otherwise) and doesn’t want to marry her and doesn’t want to live here. it’s up to him. no one should be forced about their choice of residence or whom they marry but unfortunately for him, he HAS a child. a tiny human who needs support/food/clothing/shelter until he is 18 or more. and both parents are responsible for that.

    so unfair though it may be, a saudi man has 3 choices, he can keep hi spants zipped, or if he’s truly in love he can marry the mom and make it work ( here,there or anywhere) or if he can’t stand her and the west he can pay for the child’s upkeep.

    well there is the option where if the mother doesn’t want to raise the child she can abort it or give the baby to him to raise ( and pay up) or they can both decide to adopt the baby out .

    yes this in unfair, so is concieving an innocent life and running away. I’m old fashioned and i think anyone who dumps a child ( mom or dad) without proper care ( abortion/adoption/support to raise) is lowest of the low.

    if you are not up for responsibility keep it zipped. God you’d think this was so hard… In my day and age we grew up quite happily without unneccisarily popping out babies, maybe we were repressed but we didn’t take sex or it’s consequences lightly and we didn’t have any religion influencing us either.. seems we had pure common sense and applied it to life.

    Am i the only one who thinks something is wrong with today’s young men and women????

  55. No you aren’t

  56. It’s media and movies too, Even when I was a teenager I though it was stupid that in almost every teen movie, or every movie, people have sex. Why? A decent movie like Top Gun was ruined by popping in a totally useless love-interest with, of course a night of passion.
    Don’t get me started about M-tv.

    This is a brilliant moment to share a good video. We need to lighten the mood a bit.

  57. @NN – I still don’t agree that it’s fine for a woman to decide not to parent, but not for a man. I know of cases where the woman wanted to place the child for adoption, but the man insisted on keeping it and raising it as a single father. Some people look down on those women for ‘abandoning their babies’ and hold the fathers up as heroes for ‘doing right by their kids’. Just as many applaud the mothers for having the ‘courage to make the right choice for the baby’, and fault the fathers for denying the kid a chance at a ‘better life’. Who’s right? I have no idea. I just don’t see a moral difference.

    In the situation described, I don’t think either of them is competent to raise a child. The Saudi, at least, realized that and scarpered, and won’t screw up the kid’s life any more than it already is. The mother? Well, some women in this situation do grow up and do a decent job of parenting, but a lot don’t. You can say some of blame for that is on the father for leaving her on her own, but I doubt anyone commenting here seriously believes that the kid would be better off if he stuck around – I sure don’t!

    If you believe that adoption and abortion are both morally neutral choices that she and she alone has the right to make, then it stands to reason that she and she alone should be responsible for their consequences. Biology may give her the ability (and, arguably, the right) to make those decisions, but it also gives her the responsibility of living with the fallout long after the father has left the picture.

  58. I’d like to address the comment about the reaction of a Saudi wife discovering that her husband has a child from a Western woman. The wife may be initially angry at her husband but I think eventually all blame would be shifted to the Western woman who ‘led the Saudi man astray.’

    In these situations the victim is the child. If the woman is unable to look at her child without feeling anger about the circumstances, then I think the child should be put up for adoption in order to provide a loving and stable environment for the child.

    Another issue I have encountered from young women who are pregnant and abandoned, is that some women then go on a quest for revenge. They want to damage the Saudi’s standing with his family, society and the government if he was on a government scholarship. Is this appropriate?

  59. Thank you for explaining that part American Bedu. I to explain a little too if that is alright.
    I don’t wish Any woman to find out that the man she is with has lied. That is why I asked the question about the wife. I honestly didn’t know if as a Saudi wife if you would want to have that knowledge prior to marring the man and if that would in fact influence your decision. Also I just wondered, what said reaction might be if found out after marriage.

    The act of revenge never serves anyone, The unfortunate thing is that most of these woman feel as they have no other recourse when these men wont acknowledge their mere existence . It is an extraordinarily difficult topic with lots of emotion attached.

    We must not lose sight of the fact that these children are now here and there there should be a system put in place where just these kinds of problems can be addressed.

  60. I think there is a fine line between revenge and trying to hold someone accountable for their actions. If the man really lied and tricked and dumped her- is it revenge to insist he face the reality? Do they want to damage the Saudi’s standing- or do they just want him to face his responsibilities and damage to his standing is inevitable if he does?

    Frankly- I think generally a big pay off is in order. If you lied and promised marriage and yadda, yadda, yadda- you should at a minimum pay up. And if that means your standing is damaged- it also means your child won’t starve.

  61. I feel scholarship/education/work etc., is professional and dating/marrying/having kids etc., is personal. i don’t know if they overlap, a bad person may been a brilliant professional, i don’ t think his like/dislike of a woman should have any bearing on his professional ability. but i see no harm if the girl who’s abandoned wants to go to his family ( what she hopes to achieve i don’t know) . I’d say if someone dumps you, move on. and if you are pregnant do what is best for you and the child. inthe current scenario no one can force the saudi to back the child, so if you are not sure abort, or adopt out or if you want to be a single parents go for it. let him go, he’s not a keeper.

  62. While I really do sympathize for a woman who believed she was loved at the same time in today’s Western world it is hard to accept an unexpected pregnancy.

    The child would likely be accepted by the Saudi family but the woman would be viewed as little more than a prostitute since relations before marriage are not accepted.

    Call me old fashioned but I also believe that a couple should wait until marriage before becoming intimate.

  63. Do you agree that now that these children have been /are being born, there needs to be a non bias office that handles these cases? Juggling between religion, male ,female who is right and wrong who tricked who seems to be more important than these children I don’t get it?

  64. Let me say a few words about this topic – a hard one, given that people’s emotions and sexual impulses are hard to predict and control. Remember first, there are no rules in the sense that what happens for one may not apply to others. Each case is distinct. Even so, it is possible to generalize.

    1. 80% of men are dogs. In the sense that they will take sex if available and they will say whatever needs to be said to get them where they want to go.
    2. the other 20% are either religious, timid or gay. I was the timid type – too stupid and afraid of women until I was in my mid-20s and married. This saved me a lot of trouble but caused much grief as a teen.
    3. Women, western women, sale themselves much too cheaply. The so-called woman’s lib movement has been a blessing for young men – never was sex so easy and cheap (There is an Economist article on this). Women are giving away that was once expensive and difficult (sex via marriage).
    4. Pre-marital sex (or cohabitation) does nothing to guarantee a relationship (see above) or marriage. If anything, it actually makes a successful relationship less probable. Statistics show that couples that wait have far better (and more committed) relationships than those that don’t

    Notice that I have not said anything about Saudi men. Well, when we put men raised in a society like SA into a Western environment, it is like putting a child in a candy store. It also means that all the above mentioned risk factors are doubled and tripled due to cultural, religious, legal and family complications.

    When there are pregnancies and children, it can become a nightmare of false promises, lies, broken hearts, economic hardship and abandoned children. If the woman is in the West, it is bad. If she goes to Saudi Arabia, it may mean the possible loss of her child(ren). More than anything, a woman has to understand that her children in a society like SA are not really HER children.

    The one almost certain way a woman can know is her Saudi is serious, honest and true is to say ‘no’ until marriage and ask to visit and meet his family before any formal commitment or sex.

    Not that people listen to good advice…. I never did.

  65. My question is if such an office is formed to handle these cases, what would one expect services to be exactly? Who would establish such an office? Would it be from the Saudi or the American side?

  66. Wise words, Jay….as usual! (smile)

  67. You would have to have people on both sides working together. As to what would that entail is determined on an individual basis.Things such as having mediators and counselling available would be a wonderful start.

  68. NN,
    now this is unfair that men are all reseponsible for such things
    yes women bear the cihild go through pains of labour etc ..

    Its the women who must feel more responsible and should be more careful when they are in a relationship thats not legitimate!!

  69. I’m not sure if I’d be in favor of such an entity. I have to think on that.

  70. American Bedu truly if a system could be put into place where all parties can come to an agreement on behalf of the child may just be the thing that makes something good from a already damaged situation. We cant just turn our heads to these women, men and children who clearly need help.

  71. @Ana Hindi,

    I think you misunderstand NN. When a child is born it is a joint responsibility of both parents. Men who do not step up to this responsibility by sharing a life with the mother and raising the child with her, should have to pay their portion for the care of the child. That does not produce unfairness as the mother will take care of the child by default (in the great majority of cases). It is just allocating equal responsibility to the man also.

    I think most people agree with NN on this point.

  72. carol – Do you think such an entity will work? In my very limited experience with and in Saudi i highly doubt this. Once a man goes into saudi to his family there is NO way anyone can mediate anything out of him that he or his family doesn’t want to give :-) Again i’m not paintaing everyone with a bad brush but if he doesn’t want to support his child and recognize the mom as his mate his family will support him . Unless something legal – like support can be forced ( which any govt is unlikely to do) what’s the point of this entity.

    It’s not a regular marital discord that can be cured with counselling. The rules and society in place in saudi is vastly diff from what the west is used to. I don’t think anyone would appreiate a 3rd person’s interfearence in what they see as family matters – especially one concerning a loose woman ( acco to them) .

    Plus it’s not it’s close to go andcome as one wishes, it costs time nad money and considerable effort for 1 or both parents to make an effort to come see the child. and the mom can certainly not in her unmarried state go live there ( with what visa?) , or if the child lives with the dad, it’s not like she can visit as and when she pleases. till the child can travel by himself i doubt there will be much contact unless the dad wants to make yearly trips to the US and how much of that will his new wife tolerate?

    this is atleast from what little i know having lived there – although a long time ago.

  73. In an ideal world, this office would garnish wages of the delinquent parent once paternity is proven, much like what happens here, and remit them to the custodial parent as child support.

  74. @SunniSideUp and Hindi

    I wasn’t really looking at the issue through the lens of what is right. Just through what the facts are. And the facts, the indisputable facts of childbirth are these:

    1. Women carry the disproportionate burden of pregnancy, childbirth and childcare; and
    2. Women have a disproportionate amount of authority to decide what happens to the pregnancy – abort or carry to term.

    With the understanding of these facts, men who don’t want a child should practice comprehensive birth control and make sure pregnancy doesn’t occur. Because if it does, it is de facto out of their hands what happens next. You play, you pay. Yes, a woman will pay too, but only after she decides to pay. A man can only wait for her decision, whatever it is.

    Note that I do not discuss what should be, what is fair, what is better or what is worse. Just what is.

  75. MoQ ,
    It does happen when both are married they take it as a responsibility and bring their child up .

    i was speaking about the illegitimate . where they have fun and depart!! and the lady bears the consequence.

  76. Sweeping the problem under the proverbial rug helps no one! I understand that there is a large variety of issues that will need addressing. But they do need to be addressed one day or another. Today or tomorrow or when these children are adults The questions will need to be answered.It is inevitable that change happens. Isn’t it a worthwhile endeavor to work towards some solution for the children?

  77. Sunni side up and ana.hindi are actually a really good example of how Muslims think about these cases. The men can’t help themselves, and even act the right way by running off, and the women are at fault. The women are the bad ones, the women are whores. (the children are of no importance)

    Even though, according to their religion, women are deficient mentally: It’s still the woman’s fault.
    In all these arguments, both of them miss the moral angle. They show clearly how religion destroys morality.

  78. @Aafke – *sigh*

    Yes, most Muslims believe that neither of them should have been having sex in the first place, and that since the consequences of that are well-known to anyone with half a brain, she really shouldn’t cry about them later. You can call that misogynistic, but there’s a flip side – remember my earlier comment about him having no legal standing to ‘kidnap’ his child if he isn’t married to the mother? That’s the flip side. He has no right to take the child, or tell the mother what she can and can’t do with it. If he’s paying for it, though, he does. That’s not religion, that’s common sense – if he’s footing the bill for the kid, he has the right to a say in how and where it’s raised. Women should consider that over very carefully before going after their Saudi babydaddies for support.

    As far as an office to handle these cases, Saudi law on illegitimate children is pretty clear – they’re not recognized as the offspring of the father, period. That’s true regardless of which parent is Saudi, and it’s the same in all Arab countries. Anyone with internet access and two brain cells to rub together can find that out, and expecting them to change it because many women don’t bother, and expect Saudi laws to be just like American ones, is silly. Do I think it’s fair? Not really, but it is what it is, and they’re not going to change their laws just because they have a negative impact on a handful of people – there are far worse laws on the books that they refuse to get rid of. It’s not necessarily that easy for a Saudi woman who divorces a Saudi man to get child support from him, so I don’t think it would accomplish all that much, anyway.

  79. @Ana Hindi,

    “i was speaking about the illegitimate.”

    1) There is no such thing as illegitimate children. This is why I think religion corrupts morals by attaching such titles on relationships and the children that result from it. Every child is a legitimate human being and should be treated as such.

    2) If you understand the concept in #1 then you are morally ready to understand the second concept. It does not matter what relationship situation a child was born through, he/she have needs for the early years of their lives. Both parents have equal responsibility to provide for those needs.

    3) It is not always true that people raise children together because they are married. Divorced people do raise a child together very regularly including in Muslim countries. They obviously do not live in the same house and do this. Divorced in this case to be clear is “Not Wed”. It is not different than parents that have not been married from the start.

    Real men do not run away from their responsibilities. It is also an immoral act to abandon a child.

  80. No where did I state that I expect Saudi laws to be just like American ones, I asked why as human beings are we so against helping these children…….but apparently “I” lack the brain cells to rub together so I will go sit in the back of the bus.

  81. @SunniSideUp

    I thought traditional and contemporary fiqh on the matter is that IF the father recognizes the child as his, the child is considered legitimate and entitled to whatever legitimate children are entitled. If the father says no, it’s no. But if the father admits his part, the child is as good legal.

    With crowds of quasi-concubines, short-term wives and slavery outlawed barely a generation ago, a healthy chunk of the royal family membership is actually born out of wedlock in the traditional sense of the word. Prince Bandar anyone?

  82. Nice comment NN.
    One of the despicable ”rules” of misyaar ”marriage” is that the father bears no responsibility over any resulting children. Religiously invented and sanctioned immorality to the highest degree.

  83. @SLB,

    Do not let comments like the above discourage you. You are doing well by starting the facebook page and you may have an impact through education. In this blog there will always be commentator(s) who has no compassion. They always use the excuse that compassion does not solve the problem and forget that lack of compassion makes it worse.

    Keep advocating for the women in this situation. Remember there is power and comfort in numbers. I wish you all the best.

  84. @Sandy..” Also, very few American men lie in the way described here.”…awww ok then, sure. There are supposedly 300mill ppl in the USA..at least half have to be men..and ure saying that very few of american men lie like that..so how much is very few?? lol

    “interesting you seem to have more to say about the women who believed a Muslim man when he said he’d do the honorable thing- than the Muslim man behaving like a skunk.” ..don’t see how u came to that conclusion from my answer..if u can explain?

    @Aafke “An ethical high minded human being will consider that as they themselves would never hurt another human being so deeply with such despicable lies, it would be impossible that the person they like so much could be so low and despicably unethical.
    That puts them at a disadvantage against somebody who is scheming, has no morals, no ethics, and has only his selfish pleasure in mind.”..good point.

  85. @SLB – what I can see is perhaps a place where women could at least register they have a child from a Saudi male. However, I’m not sure if this would help the child. The last thing one would want to have happen is a Saudi family who were not aware their son had fathered a child to then go to all measures to have the child brought to Saudi and be raised …away from its mother. It’s a double edged sword and all compounding factors and potential impact need to be thought out very carefully.

    I do not mean to sound harsh but if a Saudi male chooses not to have anything to do with a child, then the woman should count her losses and move on. Don’t force an issue which could have consequences more detrimental for the child.

  86. @Aafke

    I actually don’t think you are correct with the misyar marriage thing…whatever I read about it always said that regardless of reduced obligations to wife, obligation to a child, if born, still stand. It’s the same with muta marriages in Iran, a child is a child is a child. I don’t think there is a valid way (whatever that means) to waive a child, unless the man refuses to admit paternity. If paternity is admitted, then the child is legitimate no matter how he/she came about.

  87. That’s my understanding also, NN

  88. Thanks NN and Bedu, thats better then. A child is a human being and deserves to be cared for, they don’t ask to be put into this world.

  89. “A child is a human being and deserves to be cared for, they don’t ask to be put into this world.”

    So very true.

  90. American Bedu how right you are that it is a double edge sword.

  91. I hope a million brilliant university women read this post and decide NOT to jump to assumptions, because there really are some great men overall out there, but rather remain cautious and aware.

    The moral of the story is this…don’t sleep with anyone before marriage. Period. We aren’t saints and that much is understood and WAS understood two thousand years ago when Jesus was sent. But it’s our job to fight against the sin. Our biggest battle isn’t and shouldn’t be against particular cultures, men or women, but rather the notions presented to us in modern media/society – which suggests that all our problems will be solved with fine leather handbags, SUVs, designer sunglasses and the right exotic man. It’s the fantasy that must be fought. Love is just fine. I believe that.

    I say this because, even if you are like me, in the sense, that you didn’t sleep with the charming Saudi, when he leaves and barely skypes…even if all you did was watch movies and eat Indian food, study and joke with one another…it still hurts. And while I wouldn’t trade any one those moments, I definitely couldn’t imagine the pain I felt being amplified by if we had slept together.

    In some sense, I feel that just as it is the young Saudi’s responsibility to project a good image of Arab and Muslim culture by his actions. As women, first and foremost, the daughters of Eve, it is our own responsibility as well to set boundaries and preserve our dignity to project a good image of Western and Christian culture as well. We all have a role in this relationship. Man and woman. Eastern and Western.

    But to the woman that may find herself abandoned and with child, know always…that NONE of us can judge you. I, a sinner myself, will certainly not. More importantly, you MUST know that, although it isn’t normal or functional for men to run from their responsibility, if it is anyone to disappoint you it will be MAN. God will provide. You needn’t worry.

  92. While I definitely think women should have more regard for their own value, I don’t see why everybody keeps going on and on about marriage as the only option for a couple to live together.
    It isn’t.
    What really matter is the morality, honesty and decency of both partners, in whatever form they wish to be together.
    The cases spoken of in this thread have at least one partner who is neither moral, nor honest nor decent. A marriage certificate would have changed nothing. Especially not an Islamic one, as the man can dump his wife just as easy as any boyfriend his girlfriend, and with almost no consequences, only the three months of idda.
    Marriage, or a cohabitation contract, or just moving in together, these agreements have, when it comes to fidelity and honesty, only the value both partners give to it.

  93. I am sorry to say this but the Western women who do become pregnant also can enhance the image of the loose Western woman with little to no morals. I think both have committed a degree of wrong and it is the child who is left to pay the circumstances. ):

    I’ve been giving more thought on the idea of an organization being formed. I can not see where that would really help the matter. I think if anything, fewer male students would receive scholarship opportunities to study in the States…yet is this fair either?

    Not all Saudi students are bad or without morals. I do think there are many more decent Saudi students in the US than those who are unscrupulous.

  94. @AB,

    “I think if anything, fewer male students would receive scholarship opportunities to study in the States”

    I think it is a bit unfair to lay all of the issues of Saudi and how the government responds on a few kids and their moms. A better outcome should be the Saudi government doing the right thing, which is recognize the kids and force the dads (who are essentially Saudi government employees) to pay child support for their kids.

    The fact that the Saudi government continues to choose a path that is immoral should not be blamed on the women who are trying to get their children recognized. It is the fault of the Saudi government.

    I think these moms should pursue every avenue available to them, i.e. legal action against dads, naming the fathers publicly, suing the employer (Saudi government), protesting at the embassy, creating online media pages and blogs, etc. It is all legitimate as long as you have deadbeat dads.

    Note I feel the same about American deadbeat dads also.

  95. @moq – agree to every thing you say but saudi has a long way to go righting wrongs inside saudi to worry about non-saudi moms, they can barely get the saudi dead-beat dads to pay up the saudi moms.
    Also saudi courts seldom give custody of children to a non-saudi mom, so if they force the man to acknowledge paternity then you might as well kiss your kid goodbye, there is very little chance a saudi family will pay and not want the child.

    unfortunately from what i know of the rules, if he acknowledges paternity and does not want to marry the mom, i would be very very wary of taking the child to saudi…

    best solution to this do whatever you want and have fun but until you know for sure he will make it legal or stay in the west DO not have a child, unless you are prepared to raise it.

    @Aafke – i know in my head marriage is just a piece of paper, but in my heart i don’t think i was made for “living together lifestyle”, i much prefer the good old fashioned ball and chain :-) … but i have no objections if my kids do. just sdon’t come crying to me if something goes south …

  96. There is no god. This whole marriage thing was invented by the church to get influence on rich people and who would be allowed to marry whom anyway.
    It was indeed just a contract. The God-thing was added in the early middle ages.

  97. Sure I got married, in a lovely gown, yes. I’m not against marriage. I had a great party, I enjoyed myself very much.
    That doesn’t mean anything has changed between us very much, or that I think I now have some sort of magic protection from some sort of magic piece of paper. I don’t believe in magic stuff.
    I do have lovely rings though :mrgreen:

  98. @Lucretia

    “For such women I would always suggest reading an unabridged version of the Arabian Nights—filled with aberrant sex and bestiality.”

    Arabian Nights is a work of Persian literature, not Arab.

    “Any woman who is stupid enough to not sleep with a man before committing to permanence is very, very foolish. Everything may be wonderful in the “fantasy romance” department and turn sour in the reality of the bedroom. ”

    The possibility of it turning sour in the bedroom is all the more reason to try them out before committing to permanence. How can you possibly commit to someone who might be boring in the bedroom?

    I assure you that I am highly, highly intelligent and yet I’ve slept with plenty of men before committing to what I hope is permanence with my Saudi husband. You seem strangely judgmental.

  99. I totally agree with NN. Every intelligent woman would test drive a man before committing. :twisted:

  100. Ladies, please! Do not give sex to any muslim man or you will regret it. If you follow him to his homeland, you will be circumcised (he can require it), your children will be his and not yours.

    You may not leave Saudi Arabia without his permission and the American embassy will not help you and turns you back to the male. You will not take your children if you leave.

    More about circumcision, they remove your clitoris and the root of the clitoris, labia minor, scrape the labia major and sew it together. It forms a callus which he may cut open to have sex with you. There is also what is called a harem cut whereby clitoris and root are removed but leave the labia minor and stitch the vagina so opening is smaller for his pleasure only. You will never feel any sexual gratification and you are there to breed with him.

    Don’t date these pigs. Shun them. I worked for two universities where these men were grad students and their wives wore burkas. They always return to the home country. Big warning in red letters, it could happen because the male is the only one with rights. Your female children will be married as infants or toddlers.

    I don’t care what anyone else on this site states, there is real danger for any woman who is involved with muslim men.

  101. I am for deadbeat Dad’s owning up and supporting their children,

    Is a Saudi of an unplanned pregnancy in the same category as a deadbeat Dad?

    Since the woman is the one who bears a child, I do think more responsibility falls on her in regards to birth control. Was pregnancy used as a tool in an attempt to manipulate a man to a commitment?

    Now if a pregnancy was planned, then it is a different scenario in my eyes.

  102. ANY person that does not own up is a deadbeat period. Unplanned pregnancy is no excuse!!! Man and Woman know sex makes babies therefor these men can not sit back and play stupid having NO idea how the women they have sex with become pregnant.

  103. @AB,

    Here are my thoughts:

    “Is a Saudi of an unplanned pregnancy in the same category as a deadbeat Dad?”

    Of course. How is it different if the father is Western or Saudi. Abandoning a child has the same result.

    “Since the woman is the one who bears a child, I do think more responsibility falls on her in regards to birth control.”

    Agreed on the birth control responsibility. However, the financial responsibility of the child is a different matter.

    “Was pregnancy used as a tool in an attempt to manipulate a man to a commitment?”

    It is hard to determine intent of a woman, by default. So any blame on a woman in this area is just speculation which does not produce fairness, unless she is willing to admit it in a court.

  104. @violetleigh – oohh what happened :-) Not to burst your bubble but most educated men – saudi or otherwise don’t do the circumcision thing.. and many many women marry saudi men and go in and out of KSA safely and continue to live happily married lives in or out of the country .
    .

  105. A deadbeat dad is a deadbeat dad regardless of circumstances.

    Responsibility is more on the women is more a practical statement to me than a moral one. She is the one that faces the immediate consequences,

    I don’t think a special agency needs to be set up. That’s what the courts are for.

    @Violetleigh- way over the top. Female circumcision is more a north African thing (all religions) than a Muslim thing. And their is nothing wrong with the wives wearing burkas if that’s what they want to do. And I don’t know ANY married infant or toddler girls over here. True I don’t know ALL of them- but you’d think would know at least one if most of them are in that situation.

  106. @AB – i think many of these cases are also communication related, the women think he’s onthe verge of proposing while the man is not even thinking about it. Could be cultural behavioral differences.

    With the current crop one of my collegues now has 2 saudi’s to supervise and she made it clear the first day itself that what they do personally she doesn’t care , but if any girl came crying to her about she would hand them the embassy contact .

  107. So sorry to burst the lack of knowledge bubble about current circumcision rates. In Egypt, the percentage is high and it is a control method. I suggest that you do some research on FGM and then tell me what you think. I am aware that it is done in Africa but it is also allowed in the KISA culture; also, there is knowledge about children marrying old men. It happens all the time. Muhammed did it, as a matter of fact.

    You may choose to believe that the Saudis and others are more modern, however, research and reading, as well as experience in life will teach you differently.

    Many years ago, in my life as an artist, I travelled the world with my children and lived in many different cultures. I had the occasion to live in Morocco and was engaged to a Lebanese Muslim. I was in many private muslim homes and know the culture well. Something stopped me from marrying him and I returned with my children to the states. I now think that it was My God who protected me from such a step.

    Since that time, I have experienced different relationships with muslim culture. I worked at universities with muslim students from Iran, Saudi Arabia and other countries. They were all either married and kept their wives in a cocoon or were the most obnoxious men I ever met.

    So, take your muslim men and what they say with a huge block of salt. You are children in comparison to how long I have lived and the experience I have acquired.

  108. @Violetleigh- Really? I am a Muslim who lives in the Muslim culture. I’ve known my husband for decades. I have children who are Muslim men. I live in a private Muslim home! And I’ve been to others as well! I know many very good Muslim men with happy Muslim wives who are NOT in a cocoon.

    You are correct Egypt has a problem with FGM. That would be why I mentioned North Africa. And others areas have problems too- but not KSA. And it is not just the Muslims but Christians too.

  109. “She may choose to become less careful with birth control and months before his planned return to his home, she breaks the words to him that she is pregnant.” … Well, I was in birth control when I got pregnant because a baby wasn’t something in our plans, at the beginning I was shocked because I didn’t expected. Then I told him and he was shocked as well, so he said he wasn’t prepared to be a father and that I should commit an abort. I decided not to abort and he stayed with me the first 4 months, then he left KSA for three months, and he just came back to U.S but we are not together, even if we keep in touch sometimes.

    The main problem here is that women in relationship with Saudis begin to research about KSA, to know about the traditions, beliefs, etc., Also to have discussions with them about women rights and all the controversial topics. However, when you ask them directly they give you all kind of answer that you believe because you love and trust them, plus his friends support them in their lies. And being honest a girl in love never gonna think that something like this can happen to her. I Google many times about KSA but i never read anything about this situation. Unfortunately all the women who has been going through this Google it after they are inside the situation, and we begin to find pages like this one, groups on Facebook, and blogs related to this topic.

  110. @Aafke,
    ” I was never that happy and to force somebody else to go through the whole life thing just because you ”want have a baby” always seemed too stupidly selfish to me.”

    Aafke, I completely respect your opinion and decision not to have children. The part of this that I would be concerned about is the part where you say that you were never that happy. From what you say on here, I conclude that you are a rather loving and caring person. Therefore, I guess I’m just concerned that you don’t enjoy life?

    I had struggles in life too, but even within my struggles, so far in my life I’ve had a lot of fun so I don’t think of it as “forcing” someone else to go through the same, but rather allowing someone else to experience something new and different. I don’t know, but that’s just me. However, I am also 100% in favor of adoption.

    @Lucretia,
    “Aafke, I do not think that the marriage contract is any sort of “protection,” but it is more of a commitment. If not, then why did you marry?”

    A marriage contract is only as much of a commitment as the people involved decide it to be. When they don’t want to stick around anymore, they won’t. Although, the fact that some people think of it as more of a commitment can psychologically have the affect that people will stick with it longer than they otherwise would. And of course, once it’s legally recognized, there’s alimony, child support, etc. so some may view it as, “it’s cheaper to keep her/him”, thus sticking around longer.

    @everyone,
    I think the reason so many young people my age decide not to marry is they see all the divorces happening around them and so may not want to commit only to divorce a few years later. Therefore, they don’t want to get married until they know they’re lover is going to stay with them for life. Also, even once they know they want to stay with their significant other, young couples tend to want a marriage ceremony (or at least this seems to be the trend) and since many end up paying for it themselves these days for whatever reason, they wait until later to marry. These are just some of the reasons.

  111. @Violet – Female Circumcision (FGM) is rarely (and I underscore rarely) done in Saudi Arabia. This is more of a trait in parts of Africa and rural village areas of Pakistan, Afghanistan.

    Not all Saudi men or Arab men are pigs. Far from it.

    However, non-Arab women need to know more about the culture of an Arab in order to recognize and avoid the warning signs.

  112. I have learned all I ever want to know about the Arab culture. They are oppressive pigs to women and if you enjoy being oppressed, well, I feel pity for you. As for me, I will keep my clitoris and you keep your burka!

    Good lick with that…..

  113. Excellent typo at the end :twisted:

  114. @Violet,

    I think you either had a bad experience with an Arab man or just like to generalize.

    I had a wonderful marriage with a gem of a Saudi man until he was taken by a rare and aggressive leukemia. May God rest his soul.

    And I did not have to forsake anything on my body either!

  115. @Violet, I don’t think all the Arab people are pigs… I guess some of them are without doubt. However, the love of my life and the father of my son who left us always said “Don’t judge all the Arab or Muslim people because of what i did for you.” Also he NEVER oppressed me or gave me orders about any thing, he left me lived my life as I wanted, it’s true Arab people are the most jealous people around the world and some of them like to oppress the women but not all of them…. I truly believe than in all the cultures there are good and bad people, and I don’t criticized all the Saudi people even if a Saudi left me alone with my son.

    About the female circumcision I heard it happens in Africa and India, but never in Saudi Arabia. I know it is mandatory for male Muslims to do the circumcision before they reach puberty but not in women.

  116. @Violet

    With that type of attitude, your clitoris isn’t going to get much airtime.

  117. Salaam Alaykum.

    Pre-marital sex is a total no-no in Islam so…why is this happening???

  118. @Al Mutazil,

    Maybe because they don’t care to much about Islam while their are far away from the Kingdom. Pre-marital sex it’s not the only issue that they do here, there are many things forbidden for them that they do. However, most of them are going to continue praying, going to the Mosque, and celebrating their belief.

  119. I have an interesting story to tell, referring to the original post about children. My mother is a divorce lawyer in Germany and she had a German lady come to her with a kidnap case. Her husband was Lebanese and he had taken their two children back to Lebanon and obtained Lebanese passports for them there (even though they were born German citizens). He had also told the kids that what they thought was their mother was in fact just a whore and their real mother was here in Lebanon, their grandmother. They tried two years to get the kids back, no chance. The children were crying all the time and got very sick.Then war broke out in Lebanon so the husband wanted to come back. My mother and her client played cooperatively so he would come and he got arrested at the airport. He did a couple of years in jail I think and was then thrown out of the country.

  120. Two Dutch Children, Sara and Ammar, 9 and 11 were abducted by their Syrian father and taken to Syria, where the mother of course has no rights. The mother did have custody in the Netherlands. The children were away for 2,5 years, they were very clever and brave, they escaped and lived for 6 months in the Dutch embassy before they could go back to the Netherlands and be reunited with their mother.
    The did say a year later that they had a hard time being so backwards in school and catching up, and all the attention after they were freed and back home, but they are happy and doing well.

  121. I have to agree with NN’s comments/quotes about sex-before marriage..

    “Any woman who is stupid enough to not sleep with a man before committing to permanence is very, very foolish. Everything may be wonderful in the “fantasy romance” department and turn sour in the reality of the bedroom. ”

    We have been socialized (or brainwashed) to control our sexuality, because our society is carefully structured around control. Why control? Because when the masses are controlled it is much easier for those in power to assert their influence. Thus, marriage is a form of regulation from human relationships.

    The West is still heavily influenced by Christian ideals despite being ‘liberal,’ and thus for centuries we have been told that a woman’s sexuality is something reserved only for her husband. Years ago, I used to believe saving yourself (not having sex) before marriage was ideal, but then I realized judging a woman based on her chastity is keeping her subordinate to men. Having said that, I do not believe promiscuity is a good thing either, because it further conditions men too use women for sex while neglecting the emotional aspects, or treating women like objects (I got that from a blog here: http://sherryx.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/objectification-of-women-from-fashion-industry-to-prostitution/ )

    Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are three religions that are patriarchal…or in other words, they assert MALE dominance. Thus, to maintain these religions and their ideals, it is IMPORTANT to make sure that the women are to carry the burdens of sexuality — their bodies are regulated!

    Saudi culture is still heavily ‘controlled.’ A woman, from a Saudi perspective, holds the honor of her family. Western women are not part of this construct, thus they are placed low on the Saudi social hierarchy. I have heard of Western women who date Saudis and do not sleep with them. My question is why? Is it fear that he will reject you? Why would you want a future with a man who places value on your sexuality? Those who claim to love without true intimacy is something I cannot personally understand. I feel these women are allowing themselves to be subordinate. On the contrast, there are a minority of Saudi men who challenge Saudi society. Such men who think critically about Saudi culture are the ones who will defy the barriers to taking a foreign wife. Such a man will also be intelligent enough to realize that having sex with a woman does NOT devalue her as a human.

  122. @escort diaries – i don’t agree with some parts of you comment :-)

    Having sex before marriage is a personal thing, If one chooses not to have sex before marriage it does not mean they are not in touch with their sexuality. this goes for both men and women.

    Yes great romance does not gurantee a great sex life but the converse is also true.

    People should marry fro love, when you find your soul mate sex is not a deciding factor. It is after all hormones and can wane and rise.

    I don’t understand the virgin syndrome but i also don’t understand the sleeping around ot get in touch with one’s sexuality.

    again I’m older and i see the effects of patriarchy as well as free sex.. there should be a happy inbetween which differs for each woman and she much decide what that is.

  123. The only way to stop this behavior with Saudi men, is not to date them! Anyone I know that has dated one of this guys knows that they are full of shit! Is like they go to school to become ‘liars’. And they are so good at it! Ladies: Do not date Saudi men, do not listen to their lies.Let them go back to Saudi so they can get married to a Saudi woman. Most women there are miserable anyways! They live as second class citizens, they can’t vote, they can’t drive, they can’t even get divorced unless the husband wants too, and on top of that if they divorced the children belong to the husband.
    Good foreign men to date are Australians, English, German, Puertoricans, French, and Irish!

  124. @ANNE Problems tend to manifest themselves in different patterns with men from various cutlures. But Saudi men are not worse than others. I know someone who married a lying cheat of an Australian- so I’m glad I have my Saudi.

    @Radha, I agree with everything you said

    @escortdiary- true love is not based on sex. In fact good sex often clouds the issue and peoples judgement.
    Also though I understand your views on the Abrahamic religions- the men are also to remain virgins. It is the people, not the religions themselves putting virginity all on the woman.

  125. I am pregnant by a saudi student. To be completely honest, he has done exactly what this post says, except he still is a student…he has not left yet. He has harrassed me for an abortion and stressed me to an unbelievable point. The crazy thing is his dad knows….and he is trying to calm him down. But nothing works…he asked if we got married and i and my baby became muslim then we would be the perfect family. I dont know what to do….he has threw my unborn child into the dirt…saying we are unworthy.

  126. Sorry to hear that. Is his family name tribal? If they are tribals, there is virtually no chance his family will accept a marriage with you. I am not sure if you are capable of raising a child alone (it is not easy, and you must consider the negative impacts on children who grow up in low socio-economic situations). What have you considered? Lastly, this man is treating you unworthy, so do not be naive and hope he WILL marry you…why would you want such a man in your life?

  127. Lets let the words of the so called prophet Mohammed speak about the status of women-
    Women are deficient in mind and religion.

    Mohammed asked some women, “Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?” The women said, “yes,” He said, “This is because of the deficiency of the woman’s mind. ” Vol. 3:826

    Mohammed to women: “I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you.” Vol. 2:541

    The majority of people in hell are women.

    Mohammed said, “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers are women. ” Vol. 1:28, 301; Vol. 2:161; Vol. 7:124

    Women are a bad omen.

    Mohammed said, ” Bad omen is in the woman, the house and the horse.” Vol. 7:30

    Women are harmful to men.

    Mohammed said, “After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women.” Vol. 7:33

    Women may not wear wigs.

    Mohammed said, ” Don’t wear false hair for Allah sends His curse upon such ladies who lengthen their hair artificially.” Vol. 7:133
    (Koran 4:16) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness …confine them until death claims them.
    (Koran 4:34) …As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds and BEAT THEM..
    (Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215) Omar reported from the Holy Prophet who said, “No man shall be questioned for beating his wife
    “No woman shall give a woman in marriage, nor shall a woman give herself in marriage.

    He said that circumcision of women is not required but it is a good thing. No cutting off someones clitoris is never a good thing. IDIOT

    Any western woman that can read and signs up for this, is stupid. Follow this nut case Mohammed and you and your children will end up in hell with him. Did I mention this pig called Mohammed is in hell!

  128. There is no hell. It wasn’t even invented as a concept until the new testament. As there was no hell for the millions of years before the new testament I don’t see why we should believe in one now.

  129. Aafke-Art:

    You are correct that there is no hell in the afterlife as one doesn’t exist but you surely can have hell here on earth and the religious have a habit of creating such environments to which life is miserable, poor, desolate, isolated, stagnant, hostile, torturous, etc. often times far more for women and children as they are the easiest prey for the religious. Many a woman has burned herself alive to escape for the nightmare they have created for her and many children have wished they were never born to such a horror to a life that the religious has ensured for them.

  130. such a good paper i have to say.
    and i absolutely agree about that. i came to the US this January and had a Saudi classmate. he began to court me and treated me so well on the details. i fall in love with him and gave him my first time. but every time i asked him about how if i het pregnant, he always tried to avoid answer me. three months later, he got a new girl and we broke up. then, when i told my friend about him, they said” oh man, any one can tell you from a mile away that he is a player. street smart can.”fortunately im not pregnant. but really got hurt.after we broke i was like crazy for one month. so i played with more saudi guys. and i know that they just wanna play like my ex. feel so sad about saudi guys. yes, they are handsome, they are charming, they are smart, and they are players.

  131. Wow… this has turned into a Saudi male bash…. This issue is common between the sexes PERIOD. Being a Saudi has nothing to do with it… I’m sure other males of other nationalities do similar things. Does not make it right, but pointing at Saudis alone is wrong.

    I for example, I’ve been treated the opposite; and have been cheated by my western girl friends ( pretty much every time I had one). What is even worse is most of them cry and cause drama when I end it for that specific reason.

    My brother “impregnated” a girl; we ended up telling our parents, they accepted it. Turns out to not be his.

    Bottom line, do not EXPECT anybody to be GOOD.

  132. The article gave fair advice. The double standards and tribalism prevalent in the country knows no logic or bounds. Also, the government requires ‘special permission’ to marry a person from outside the Gulf countries due to the high level of spinsterhood in the Kingdom. The culture embraces hypocrisy and deceit is often the only way to survive from childhood – therefore all of his poetic verses about your beauty and love may appear so heart felt.

    Most of the pregnant women left behind had no idea about their Saudis true intentions…. Not even a clue – makes you wonder about how good he was at spinning yarns….

  133. The way that Saudi Arabian men behave with women in Australia is disgraceful. I would run a mile now, knowing how deceitful they are. Different rules for non muslim people and women in particular. Little boys who are borderline pedophiles that think western women are ‘dirty’ They are insane and are the most disrespectful idiots I have ha the misfortune to meet. Good looking-some but the most two faced people you will ever meet.

  134. The way some of the Saudi student girls dress up here in Southern California is absolutely disgraceful and despicable.

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