Saudi Arabia: Is Too Much Emphasis Placed on the Commercialism of Makkah?

The Holy city of Makkah has already undergone a significant facelift with the construction of the Makkah clock tower as well as expansion of the Haram to accommodate more pilgrims.  Many Saudis would not recognize the Makkah of today as compared to the simplistic Makkah of the past.

Now Makkah is starting to become a high rise city like Jeddah.  What has remained of the old Makkah near the Haram is going to be razed and destroyed to make way for the new commercialized Makkah.

7000 properties are scheduled to be destroyed of which 4000 of the properties are residential housing.  These properties are to be destroyed for further expansion and accommodation of pilgrims.  But what about the people, the families, who are forced to give up their homes?  Yes; they will be compensated but monetary compensation does not necessarily make up for the memories and the proximity families enjoyed to the Haram.  Besides, it is not easy to relocate where there is no choice.  Even properties on the outer borders of Makkah are not cheap and have risen in cost over the years with the ongoing expansions. 

“Seasonal accommodation for pilgrims constituted about 70 percent of business for 35 to 40 percent of investors who were from outside Makkah.”  Is this fair to the old time residents of Makkah?  How truly necessary is further expansion?

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122 Responses

  1. All I can say here with this artistic rendition is it looks like Gotham City. With the women in the black bat costumes it is a perfect fit.

    This is just how it strikes me. Just my impression.

  2. The image of the city is ghastly. It ugly and doesn’t even have the virtue of being original.

  3. There are too many hoops to jump through to go to Hajj. I finally just donated the money I would have spent going to Hajj to a charitable cause and forgot it. For those who have a problem with that, take it up with Allah SWT.

  4. Nothing like grotesque Kitsch to displace the populace and historic buildings. In the meantime poor people are charged an arm and a leg for housing during hajj. The owners of the weird, new luxury buildings are gouging.

    The only other people on earth who are close in such a lack of regard for their history, their people as well as a dearth of design and refinement are the Chinese.

    @ bigstick. That was my reaction as well. Could also be something out of Harry Potter.

    The Saudis are number one in the world in their over abundance of the lack of good taste. They will put money into anything that is bigger and glitters.

    Freud could probably do a great deal with that. ;)

  5. I don’t think it’s right to force people to give up their land, but if expansion is truly needed, the land should be valuable enough that plenty of people will want to sell it.

    The Saudi government has strict quotas for Hajj visas, and that makes it almost impossible for anyone under 60 who lacks a Western passport or significant ‘wasta power’ to get one. Their justification is that they lack the infrastructure to handle more than a certain number of pilgrims, and from what I’ve heard, they’re right about that. If building additional facilities means that more Muslims have the opportunity to perform Hajj every year, I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

  6. gwendolyn, you seem to do everything halfheartedly.

  7. Allah didn’t think this hajj thing out very well. She should have foreseen the numbers which eventually would come, but it is clear She didn’t.
    Hajj will be impossible for many people, so Allah should drop the part where it is compulsory.
    But of course Allah never imagined the Saudis succumbing so completely to the influence of the Wicked West! She thought her believers would stick to sunni simplicity.

    So that monstrous building needs to go, it is using western influence, it will influence Saudi women with Western values. The style is Western, the construction techniques are western, the architects will have either been western or western trained, using western innovations in architecture, and it will have been built with western and ex-pat workers and companies. the only thing non-western about it is it’s gargantuan bad taste, but that shall not save it.
    It has to be bulldozed!
    So will all the western influenced infrastructure, the tents made using western materials and inventions, and the plastic water bottles. Use goatskins, plastic is a Western influence which will corrupt Saudi women.
    Nobody should be allowed into the holy city wearing western influenced shoes, and that includes plastic slippers. All these plastic slippers will remind women of the nefarious influence of the West.

    Actually, nobody should be allowed to arrive in western influenced transport. So no planes, no cars, modern boats, nothing which will spread the influence of the West into the holy city.
    You want to go on hajj, you travel by foot, camel, or wooden hand built boat.
    That should also considerably ease up on numbers of worshipers.
    And no western influenced buildings would be needed so Mecca can stay as it is. or was, because every building now standing with western influence needs to go. The true believer can only build with wood and clay bricks.

  8. @ Aafke-Art

    It rather bothers me that you speak of this Allah as, “She.”

    While women can be just as cruel and bloodthirsty as men, I rather doubt that the giver of life and “designer” of everything would have such bad taste. ;)

  9. well this is not special to saudi , Anyplace there is less land and a large population high rises are being built. I don’t agree with kicking out the property owners and that bldg definetly looks ugly but beyong that i guess there are more people than accomodations there and from where i see it, they either severly limit hajj visas or provide more accomodations.

    and for 5-start accomodations, hey if they can perform the hajj in comfort and can afford it why not :-)

    I;ve never been inside , since i’m not permitted and never will be , so this doesn’t affect me, but if it’s not what the people there want then they should speak up, protest, do something to stop this development..

  10. Prosciutto, Since I got to know about women like Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman I have to pipe down about women’s superior intellect. Unfortunately. :(

  11. Aafke-Art, said:

    Prosciutto, Since I got to know about women like Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman I have to pipe down about women’s superior intellect. Unfortunately. “

    LOL

    Ever hear of the statistical bell curve, Aafke? Most people fall somewhere in the large, middle bulge while either end is populated by geniuses and idiots. The difference between idiots and the intellectually challenged is that those so afflicted typically know they are not very smart.

    I am with you, those two are an embarrassment to the female gender. Fortunately, there are so many more men in the same category. Think Cain, Perry, Paul and Mitt. The president and the Newt prove that being intelligent does not automatically mean one is blessed with any common sense.

    The really smart, sensible people wouldn’t be caught dead running for office.

  12. Oh but we knew about men being dumb all along, I mean you meet men like that all the time in real life anyway.

  13. Is there too much emphasis on commercialism?
    No.
    Mecca is and has always been a place which makes money from pilgrims. Since ages before Islam, and it has remained so since Islam converted the pagan superstitions into Islamic superstitions.
    I think that was done specifically to keep the business going and the money rolling. And to ease/force the conversion of pagans into the new religion. Same as Christianity did when taking over older superstitions and believes.
    The whole place has been a money making machine since the stone age. Why should we be surprised if they expand the commercial aspect even more? I bet it’s a good investment, bound to pay off.

  14. A wrote something similar on another post. I will state it again.

    Commericialism, ain’t it great. Islam’s Gotham City with bats in the belfry. Will Batman come in to save the day and rescue the innocent. You know the innocent accused of witchcraft slated for a beheading. No,…… I guess not.

    Maybe Batwoman (who already has the attire) will save the in innocent. I think there is a greater chance of that.

    I really don’t care how tasteless this may seem. If it gets one person to think and stop this insanity.

  15. I agree with Aafke. The Haj such as it is doesn’t make sense given the size of the Muslim population and the east of travel today.

  16. I agree that pic looks like Gotham City or something. I was also going to say what Aafke said. The WHOLE purpose of Mecca has always been about commercialism even before the Muslims took it over. Too much now? Perhaps, but what business is it of mine?

  17. The WHOLE purpose of Mecca has always been about commercialism even before the Muslims took it over.

    ————————————————————————-

    Which history is this? Muslims came from where and took Mecca? U mean foreigner Muslims took Mecca?

  18. Jerry M,
    I agree with Aafke. The Haj such as it is doesn’t make sense given the size of the Muslim population and the east of travel today.

    ————————————————————

    Jerry and alike,

    Please keep your mockery to urself. Haj doesnt make sense for you but for billions of Muslims in the world. It has been going on successfully and will do in future too. Muslims dont give a damn to hater’s mockery.

  19. @ Azah

    Billions?

    Last I heard it was 1.2 to 1.5 billion and that is counting the ones who can’t say they are not muslims or they get killed. Look what happens to you in the land of oz. You get whacked for witchcraft. That alone says whole lot. Maybe you should redirect your efforts as Saudi Arabia is known for Inquisition tactics and Witchcraft hunts.

  20. History of Islam Azad.
    if you don’t know it, here it is in a nutshell:
    In Mecca there was one of the most important kaaba’s in Arabia, it held a black stone from the sky possibly a meteorite, those stones were habitually sacred to the Great goddess. There are other black stones dedicated to gods and goddesses all over the area as far as Rome, where there was a black stone dedicated to the sungod. And there was eternal well also makes Mecca a suitable place to worship the Great Goddess.

    Later on other gods were worshipped as well , the most important of these were goddesses Al Uzza, Al manat And Allat. And the god Hubal. Statues of these gods were housed in the kaaba, this is the purpose of the building.
    The pilgrims had been coming in large groups to this holy site at least since the 4th century. They circled the kaaba naked. The Kaaba was tended by seven priestesses. These pagan rituals were later ”Islamized” and the priestesses were exchanged for men. Mohammed did not like women to have power.

    When Mohammed invented Islam he first wanted the new Muslims to pray to Jerusalem, and qiblas in mosques were build in the direction of Jerusalem, but when he saw that he could never reach that far, he changed the direction to Mecca. From then on the qiblas were build in the direction of Mecca. Muslim pilgrims went to Mecca and kept up the ancient rituals, as they still do today, circling seven times, throwing rocks at pillars, etc. When Mohammed was firmly established and had power enough he forbade anybody but Muslims to do the rituals and pilgrimage in Mecca. And nobody was allowed to do them naked anymore. And he destroyed the old statues of gods in the kaaba, leaving it empty and basically without purpose. Except of course that the kaaba itself functions as an idol in the centre of worship now.

    Oh, and about all the other kaaba’s: Mohammed send men out to destroy all others and their statues, to make sure the one in Mecca was the only one left.

  21. Aafke,

    Who built Kaba and who put Hubal in Kaaba?

  22. @Azah:

    Who copied other religions and pagan customs to make it his own?

  23. @bigstick,

    Plz Go and ask to those who worship idol, pagan rituals and keep statue in worshiping place. There is no place for man man idol worshipping in Islam and so no point of asking irrelevant question to me.

  24. “U mean foreigner Muslims took Mecca?” — ha ha h a you do realize that the earth and human populaton existed before the advent of islam don’t you ..

  25. @Azah

    Really, you could have fooled me. Actually your just fooling yourself.

  26. We know who took over…

  27. @Azad — so idolworshipping is man made but kneeling in a certain direction is not??? who gets to decide that.
    You can say idol worshipping is not supported in islam.. but why add on “MAn MADE” — and you know that how?
    I’m just curouos to your source of enlightenment..:-) just kidding

  28. “U mean foreigner Muslims took Mecca?” — ha ha h a you do realize that the earth and human populaton existed before the advent of islam don’t you ..

    —————————————————-

    Islam was nothing new. Muslims belive that human being started from Adam and Eve and both were Muslims and all further prophets were Muslims. And all prophets from Adam, Moses, David….. to Muhammad were against idol worshipping.

  29. @Radha,

    Who creates idol if its not man made? Why u get offended when I say man-made?

  30. Aafke-Art,
    We know who took over…

    ————————————————————

    Aafke,

    Please reply and continue your history. Who build Kaaba n who put Hubal in Kaaba. I am sure you might be knowing history in details.

  31. Radha,

    I sincerely dnt not understand why u get hurt when I say man-made.
    Idol is created, sold, bought. And its created/made by man.
    Plz let me know why u consider I am wrong or i am mocking.

  32. Look it up for yourself. Who do you think build the Kaaba? The people who lived there of course, thousands of years ago. Just like all the other kaaba’s were build by people who lived in other places.
    Any myths that is was build by Abraham or whoever are invented. It is quite probable that the first versions of the Kaaba was build by Yemeni settlers.

  33. @Azad

    Most scholars and historians actually doubt the existence of any of these people. Even if I considered any of them real, Muhammed life is extremely detailed like a horror story (made up, of course) which gives creditability to paganism and it’s gods. In fact, the pagan Moon God , Allah has better creditability as one of hundreds of pagan idol gods of being worshipped by numerous tribes prior to Muhammad’s alleged timeframe than the existence of Muhammed himself.

  34. Aafke,

    Of course, it was built by people who lived there. I think you are heading towards fabricated and incomplete history.

    Kaaba was not a pagan temple. Get your facts right plz. The one who placed Hubal inside Kaaba was a Pagan, not that Kaaba was a Pagan temple.

    Kaba was built by Ibrahim alahis salam and then later on the pagans started putting their idols in Kaba. Idols were there in the kaba for a negligible time even in Pre Islamic era.

    If you don’t know then let me inform you that ancient Israelis are descendents of Hazrat Ishaq alahis salam and Arabs are descendents of Hazrat Ismail alahis salam. And Both Hazrat Ishaq alahis salam and Hazrat Ismail alahis salam were the sons of Prophet Ibrahim alahis salam. You don’t know the whole history of various things of Hajj. Arabs are the descendents of Ismail alahis salam and He alashis salam worshipped one God and not the idols.

    If you don’t know how Idol worship started in Mecca then get the knowledge first before blessing people here with you wisdom. Idol worshipers in Arabs were short lived.

    Amr bin Luhayy introduced first idol, Hubal, into Kaaba. He bought it from the north region of Arab. He did it just coz he was leader of Quraysh that time. Kaaba still had monotheistic rituals like circumbulating around it even before Hubal was placed and even after Hubal was placed with 359 other idols.

    Kaaba was not a pagan temple. It was made into a pagan temple. Amr Bin Luhay is the one who first placed an idol, later the trend followed by other pagans. Before that, there was nothing as now there is nothing. Its into its original form yet again.

    And don’t call it an Invasion. People Welcomed Prophet Muhammad salAllahu alahis wasallam and Mecca was conquered without lifting a single sword and Prophet Muhammad salAllahu alahi wasallam forgave everyone who tortured him earlier. Everyone was thinking that What will happen to them as they did injustice to Muslims and Prophet SalAllahu alahi wasallam but Muhammad RasoolAllah SalAllahu alahi wasallam said that “I will do what Yusuf alahis salam did with his brothers. You all are forgiven !”. Quraish leader Suffiyan said, “Muahmmad SAW has the biggest weapon that is the power to win hearts of the people and so he won people and he even accepted Islam”.

  35. The kaaba was always a pagan temple. as were all the other kaabas in the land, which were destroyed by Mohammed., at least as far as he could reach.

  36. Aafke,

    Why do u love so much dry argument without facts? What’s wrong in the factual history I posted above? If u have any reliable source on how idol worshiping started and who built kaaba, then lets discuss.

  37. @Azad,

    “Kaba was built by Ibrahim alahis salam and then later on the pagans started putting their idols in Kaba.”

    You cannot even proof that Ibrahim even existed. By all accounts you are making up history. It is ok not to know all the facts. Example no one really knows who built the Kaaba. However, when history picks up at a certain point, it is well documented that the place was a pagan temple housing multiple idols. Also, it is well known that at lest 6 Kaaba’s existed in the Arabic Peninsula, so it is more likely that these houses of worship were built commonly by pagans.

    You should look up the concept of Achems Razor. The idea of some fictional character built the place is very far fetched and sounds more like an invention than history.

    “And don’t call it an Invasion. People Welcomed Prophet Muhammad salAllahu alahis wasallam and Mecca was conquered without lifting a single sword”

    Yes, in military terms it is called a surrender to a superior military power. It does not mean they just suddenly so the light of Islam shinning through and won their hearts. It was a treaty that gave the prophet power over the city and it’s tribes. People were spared from being killed in return for promised tribal loyalty. Nothing more than a military treaty and terms of surrender.

  38. You cannot even proof that Ibrahim even existed.
    ————————————————————————

    Most rediculous statement ever heard. I fell from chair.

    Ibrahim = Abraham (PBUH)

    What proof you want I dont understand. He is mentioned in almost all old Hebrew, Greek, Arabic literature, Bible, Quran, Tourat and u say no proof?

    Hebrew: Abraham
    Arabic: إبراهيم‎ Ibrāhīm,
    Greek: Aβραάμ

    Abraham/Ibrahim was called Abram when birth, Abram is the eponym of all Abrahamic religions- Judaism, Christianity and Islam. According to both the Hebrew Bible and the Qur’an, through his sons Ishmael and Isaac, Abraham is the forefather of many tribes, including the Ishmaelites, Israelites, Midianites and Edomites. Abraham was a descendant of Noah’s son, Shem. Christians believe that Jesus was a descendant of Abraham through Ishaq/Issac, and Muslims also believe that Muhammad was also descendant of Abraham through Ishmael.

  39. @Azah

    Your advator looks like a bat.

  40. Azah

    Correct there is no proof. It first started with the made up story with the Jews. People of the Book because they wrote it. It was then copied by the christians and later to Islam. Just like the stories from the greeks, samaritians, etc. Fables, storytime, fairytales, you know stuff people made up to entertain people. Hollywood does this a lot today. It is amazing how much people believe this fantasy stuff.

  41. bigstick,

    With neutral mind and after cleansing ur mind, if u want to know the truth. Read the biography of Muhammad:

    “The Sealed Nectar”

    Or if u like non-Muslim relgious scholar and short one then

    Muhammad(PBUH) by karen Armstrong

  42. @Azah:

    There is also no actually proof the Jesus lived either. It is possible he was made up as well. Oh, recently they changed the virgin mary to the young maiden mary as it was actually more in line to the truth. Also there is no proof she existed either.

  43. @Azad,

    We also have many ancient books that spoke about the legend of a God’s like Zeus and Ra. That does not make them historic. Ancient legends existed in every culture. For them to be historic figures the stories need to be supported by recorded history or archaeological finds.

    Saying that Christianity and Islam also cover the story of Abraham does not give you support from a different source, since these religions are more modern copies of the ancient Jewish religion. Copying does not produce a collaborating source, it is a retelling of the same story.

    You should examine what you accept as historic evidence.

  44. Azah:

    Same could be said about Santa, Easter Bunny and Harry Potter. If only you believe fairytales could come true.

  45. recently they changed the virgin mary to the young maiden mary as it was actually more in line to the truth

    ———————————————–

    Yes, I know Bible has different versions and writers. It doesnt mean that fact doesnt exist.

  46. You should examine what you accept as historic evidence.
    ———————————————————–

    MoQ,

    U deny existence of Ibrahim/Abraham (PBUH) becoz u dont trust facts/evidence in Quran/Bible/Tourat and any other literature. But you belive that Muahmmad killed/destroyed. In contrast, u again deny the existence of Muhammad and his peaceful works.

    So, conclusion for arrogant people is that:

    Muhammad or Abraham (PBUT) dont exist but Muhammad’s violence exists.

  47. azah:

    The same could be said about Zeus and Ra. Apparently since God/Allah is so jealous it could be he is competing with others on his level. Is that plausible? See where this nonsense goes.

  48. @Azad,

    Don’t you think some of your arguments do not amount to anything more than:

    – Islam is tells the truth
    – thus the stories told by Islam are truth
    – And we know Islam tells the truth because it says so in the Islamic stories

    The circle is full and history is rewritten in a buff of circular logic!!!

  49. Azah:

    No I don’t believe he existed but if you chose to believe he exists I will bring out all the contradictions, the bloody horror, the missing verses, abrogations, satan verse, rapes, murders, pilliaging, no original koran, problems with exisiting korans, fabricated hadith everywhere, connotation problems, past scholars scrunity, etc. see what kind of can of worms you open up here.

  50. @Azad,

    Mohammad existed, no one denies that. He was recorded in history. So yes his violence was real.

    I did not argue that did I…

    You can do better than a strawman argument ;)

  51. @MoQ:

    I disagree, only stories of him exist. Nothing actually proves his existence.

  52. MoQ,

    Dont believe at all or believe what is logical. But dont belive things to suit ur needs. When I believe Islam is truth, I have basis. I belive in existence of Allah, Jesus PBUH, Moses PBUH, Muhammad PBH, then only I believe in Islam.

    On the contrary, Conclusion and hypocrisy for arrogant people is that:

    Muhammad or Abraham (PBUT) dont exist but Muhammad’s violence exists. They believe based on their nerve’s needs.

  53. Mohammad existed, no one denies that. He was recorded in history.

    ———————————-

    So, Ibrahim didnt exist and not recorded in History?

  54. @ Azad

    A legend exists whereby people bought into it and adopted a new mantra. The some thing happen with Christians. No proof, only talk, and fairytales.

    Need to go for now.

  55. @bigstick,

    Mohammad existed. It is not just Hadith, there is plenty of poetry, tribal stories, records from other empires of the time, etc. Check your facts on this one, I think you are falling for some fringe writings here.

    Now Jesus, Abraham and Mosses are very likely to be fiction.

  56. Azad Ali Shah: Islam was nothing new. Muslims belive that human being started from Adam and Eve and both were Muslims and all further prophets were Muslims. And all prophets from Adam, Moses, David….. to Muhammad were against idol worshipping.

    Azad Saaab, I am sure that there is a hadees somewhere which declares …. all the animals alahis salam and plants alahis salam …. as MUSLIMS alahis salam; since Adam and Eve alahis salam :)-

  57. bigstick, on December 15, 2011 at 10:19 pm said:
    Azah:
    No I don’t believe he existed but if you chose to believe he exists I will bring out all the contradictions, the bloody horror, the missing verses, abrogations, satan verse, rapes, murders, pilliaging, no original koran, problems with exisiting korans, fabricated hadith everywhere, connotation problems, past scholars scrunity, etc. see what kind of can of worms you open up here.
    —————————————————————-

    Hatred people will spread hatred. Hatred was there and is there and will be there but fact will be always there. I again suggests you to go through right source but not hatred source:

    Lets see what Michael H. Hart of USA who wrote:

    “The 100 most influential persons in history” and placed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) as number one, on the top of the list

    “My choice of Muhammad to lead the best of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels.

    His complete biography has been authenticated and circulated amongst scholars around the world starting while he was still alive and continuing up until today. One of the first examples we quote from is from the Encyclopedia Britannica, as it confirms:

    (Regarding Muhammad) “… a mass of detail in the early sources shows that he was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were likewise honest and upright men.” [Vol. 12]

    Reverend R. Bosworth-Smith wrote in “Mohammed & Mohammedanism” in 1946:

    “Head of the state as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but, he was pope without the pope’s claims, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue. If ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by a Right Divine, it was Mohammad, for he had all the power without instruments and without its support. He cared not for dressing of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life.”

    George Bernard Shaw:

    “I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving the problems in a way that would bring the much needed peace and happiness. Europe is beginning to be enamored of the creed of Muhammad. In the next century it may go further in recognizing the utility of that creed in solving its problems.” (A Collection of writing of some of the eminent scholars, 1935).

    Lamartine’s tribute to the Prophet:

    “If greatness of purpose, smallness of means and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could claim to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad?” (Histoire de la Turquie, 1855).

    Gandhi:

    “I wanted to know the best of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind… I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet’s biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life.”

    English author Thomas Carlyle in his ‘Heroes and Hero Worship’, was simply amazed:

    “How one man single handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades.”

    EWolfgang Goethe, perhaps the greatest European poet ever, wrote about Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. He said:

    “He is a prophet and not a poet and therefore his Quran is to be seen as Divine Law and not as a book of a human being, made for education or entertainment.” [Noten und Abhandlungen zum Weststlichen Dvan, WA I, 7, 32]

    Muhammad, peace be upon him, was nothing more or less than a human being, but he was a man with a noble mission, which was to unite humanity on the worship of ONE and ONLY ONE GOD and to teach them the way to honest and upright living based on the commands of God. He always described himself as, ‘A Servant and Messenger of God’ and so indeed every action of his proclaimed to be.

  58. @Azad,

    “On the contrary, Conclusion and hypocrisy for arrogant people is that”

    No one is being arrogant unless you consider being factual as arrogant. You claimed that Abraham existed as a historic figure not a religious legend. We disagree with you and historians agree with that position.

    No one is stopping you from believing what you want. Just do not expect us to agree that it is historic when it is not.

  59. The Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, and He is the one who truly created the universe, all other religions are just made up.
    There is a book which says so. You can buy it on Amazon.
    So it is true.
    Convert all ye infidels!

  60. @Azad – Actually, I had just watched a ‘Mysteries of The Bible’ episode about Abraham, One man, one God. It certainly was not a HATE site or anything like that (if you can get Netflix you can watch it there) It told the history of Abrahm/Abraham/Ibrahim according to the stories in the Bible and the Quran. It said that there is not any real archaeological proof that he ever actually existed. They believe that he was a legend that was created from composite stories from different times in history (example – one story might sound like it was created during one certain era and another story will have aspects of life from another era in time) Perhaps that is why they have to come up with the story of him being SO old. I mean who lives to be 175 years old? What woman has babies as an old woman as Sarah did? Well, I guess these days with the miracle of modern medicine it can happen but the doctors didn’t have that expertise back then.How long do you suppose it would take you to walk from Jerusalem to Mecca? Pretty awesome task for such an old man, eh?

  61. @Moq

    The only accounts that Muhammad actually existed is from the koran, muslim biographies and the hadith. Muhammad is reported to have died around 632 CE, with the earliest known material on his life written by Ibn Ishaq in 750 CE. Almost 120 years after the fact. The original work of Ibn Ishaq was lost and can only be accounted for in part by Ibn Hisham who died in 834 CE. That is 200 years later. Now other sources are Ibn Ishaq, died in 768 CE, Ibn Hisham died in 834 CE, Sayf b. Umar, he die in 796, Ali b. Muhammad al Madain died in 840 CE, Al Tabari who died in 923 CE, Muhammad Ibn Sa’d who died in 843 and Al -Waqidi who died in 823 CE. Then you have the hadith written 150 to 200 years after the fact with so many versions that had to be thrown out it was ridiculous.

    Find and read these sources Prince Caetani, Father Lammens and the Ignaz Goldziher.

    It is believe that the history was written backwards. In the same way it was for Jesus. To my knowledge there is no credible historical source that can actually prove the existence of Muhammad.

    I am all ears if you have it.

  62. @Azah

    What does any of that stuff have to do with history. How are any of these people relevant?

  63. “AzAd” — “Who creates idol if its not man made?”

    I meant it in a sarcastic way .. BUt to enlighten you further, there is a sect of Hindus who beleive that god/nature creates IDOL’s in god’s form for man to worship.. some such are found inthe himalayas near some riverbed.. etc.,

    so are you telling me they think Wrong? They seem to have scrolls pre-dating islam so is older better? who knows what is the thruth.

    and pl don’t start the everyone is born muslim rubbish, No child is born to any religion. They are born as plain human babies we teach them religion, etc., etc.,

    No one is better than anyone or no religion is superior to another, they are just rules written by god/man/nature or some such and followed by people. and if the follower had any brains, they’d know that god would be happy as long as they lived as productive human being s and didn’t cause hurt or harm to others.

    With all these rules in these religions you’d think god has nothing better to do than keep tabs on who dressed in what today and who plucked their eyebrows…huh ..

    ok end of rant.i’m gone for the day bye

  64. Moq

    Jesuit Lammens.

  65. @ radhaa:

    I applaud your ranting keeping going. Rational, thinking person. Yeah. Call a spade a spade. I like it.

  66. “AzAd” — “Who creates idol if its not man made?”

    I meant it in a sarcastic way .. BUt to enlighten you further, there is a sect of Hindus who beleive that god/nature creates IDOL’s in god’s form for man to worship.. some such are found inthe himalayas near some riverbed.. etc.,

    so are you telling me they think Wrong?

    ————————————————————————

    I didnt say any1 is wrong or right. I said its man-made. And I never heard God/nature creates Idols but I see it decorated/created/sold/bought/transported by man only. And I didnt mean to hurt any1 too.

  67. How long do you suppose it would take you to walk from Jerusalem to Mecca? Pretty awesome task for such an old man, eh?

    —————————————————————-

    @Lynn,

    You may ask how People from across came to the land of Red Indians and settled and how red-Indians vanished from their land. Centuries back British reached India, Malaysia, Pakistan, Singapore, Myanmar across ocean and mountains. There was always way to reach places, man-made boats, camels. People used to live long life most of the times.

    You guys believe in existence of Kaaba, Mecca, Medina. Then belive also the well of Zamzam which is still existing and which never goes dry since the day it was started producing water and still millions..millions of people from all over world drink from here.

    Point to note is that zamzam still exists and its mentioned in the history of Ibrahim PBUH. There was a big stone,near Kaaba, on which Ibrahim PBUH stood and gave the message of God. That stone is STILL there TODAY. If one wants to know full details, u have to go to roots. Before claiming Kaaba was for Idol’s house, it needs to know how kaaba came up and how and who built it. Here is the story(U can also know the concept of Haj):

    History of Prophet Ibrahim (Alaihissalaam):
    ——————————————

    The history of Ibrahim, Alayhe As-Salam, started long time ago in a distant land. Ibrahim was born amidst idol worshipping people, in the kingdom of Babylon. His father Aazar was an idol worshipper but the child could not accept this practice. As he grew older he became more skeptical about idol worshipping it is pointed out in Qur’an at Sura 43 Verse26 Sura 6 Verse74.

    One night Ibrahim looked up to the sky and , saw a shinning star and said:

    Could this be my Lord?. But when it set he said: I do not like those that set. Like wise he went after the moon and the sun but when the sun also set he said: O my people I am free from all that you join as partners with Allah! I have turned my face towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth and never shall I give partners to Allah [6:75-80]

    That is the story of the journey of Ibrahim from Polytheism (Shirk) to Islamic Monotheism (Tawheed).

    Now Ibrahim set on a mission to call people to the worship of One True God, starting with his own father whom he loved much. Ibrahim argued gently with his father to give up idol worship and follow the path of Tawheed. His father rejected him followed by the people of the town, who decided to burn him which was approved by Nimrod, the king of Babylon [19:42-47; 21:68].

    But Allah saved him from the blazing fire [21:69]. Ibrahim’s heart was tender and he prayed for forgiveness for his father because of a promise he made [9:114]. Ibrahim debated the king, reasoned with him to worship Allah alone (Tawheed). Even though the king had nothing to say in favor of his practice but was not ready to accept the message of Tawheed. Allah made him move from Mesopotamia (Babylon) to Syria and Palestine, with his nephew Lut, Alayhe As-Salam [21:71].

    Later Ibrahim married Sarah, who had believed in Allah, and they moved to Egypt. Ibrahim, Alayhe As-Salam, then married Hajar and Allah blessed her with Ismail at a very old age. Years later Allah blessed Sarah also with a son named Ishaq. Ibrahim took Ismail and her mother and left home and started travelling, crossing fertile land, barren mountains till they came to the Arabian desert. Ibrahim brought Hajar and her son Ismail while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka’bah under a tree on the spot of present day Zamzam, at the highest place in the area and made them sit under a tree, placed a bag of dates and some water near her and set out homeward [Bukhari. Vol 4: H584].

    Hajar ran after him and said: O Ibrahim! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)? She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him: Has Allah ordered you to do so? He said yes. Then He will not neglect us she said. Ibrahim proceeded onwards, and on reaching the Thaniya where they could not see him, he faced the Ka’bah and raised both hands and made du’a to Allah: O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Your Sacred House, in order O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer, so fill out the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits, so that they may give thanks [14:37].

    Soon the water was finished and they became very thirsty. She could not look at Ismail and found that the mountain of as-Safa was the nearest mountain to her in that area. She stood on it and started looking at he valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. She then descended from as-Safa and reached the valley, and an in the valley like a person in distress and trouble till she rossed the valley and reached al-Marwa. She kept running between as-Safa and al-Marwa. She did this seven times. This is the source of the tradition of Sa’i. Finally when she was exhausted Allah sent an Angel. The angel said to her: Do not be afraid of being neglected , for this is the House of Allah which will be built by this boy and his father , and Allah never neglects His people. The angel started digging the earth untill water flowed. Thus the well of Zamzam was started from where millions of people have been quenching their thirst till today.

    Eventually, other people joined them and the valley became a living community. Time passed by Hajar died Ibrahim came back one day and had a very happy reunion with his grown-up son Ismail.

    Ismail grew up and started learning Arabic from the settlers and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up. One day Ibrahim said: O Ismail! Allah has given me an order. Ismail said: Do what your Lord has ordered you to do Ibrahim asked: Will you help me? Ismail said: I will help you. Ibrahim said: Allah has ordered me to build a house here pointing to a hillock higher than the land surrounding it. Prophet Muhammad, sallallaho alayhe wa sallam said : Then they raised the foundation of the House (the Ka’bah). The father and the son built the Ka’bah with their own hands carrying stones themselves.
    The Prophet added:

    Then both of then went on building and going round the Ka’bah saying: O our Lord, accept (this service) from us. Verily, You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knower [2:127]. When completed, Ibrahim stepped on a large stone and called on the people to obey their Lord. This large stone, which he stepped on, is still there to this day near the Ka’bah. It is called Makam Ibrahim [Bukhari. Vol 4:H583].

    But Allah wanted to put them to a very tough test. Ibrahim had a dream that he was sacrificing his son, which he disclosed to his son Ismail. Both of them realized that this was an order from Allah, Subhanahu wa-Taala. Ismail said with out hesitation: Do what you are commanded, you shall find me very patient insha’Allah. Allah informed Ibrahim that he has passed the test.

    A sheep was sent down from the heaven to be slaughtered in place of Ismail and they had a big celebration that day [37:102-107]. This event is celebrated every year by the Muslims. It is called Eid al-Adha where animals are sacrificed.

    Ibrahim and Ismail kept calling people to the worship of Allah without partners (Tawheed). Ibrahim, alone stood against his father, the society, the king using the methodology of kind persuasion, proof, logic and trust in Allah (Tawakkul) being conscience of Allah (Taqwa).

    The word Hajj literaly means the Pilgrimage, but in the terminology of Islamic Shariah it means visiting Bait-Allah (the House of Allah at Makkah) to observe the necessary rituals. Hajj call for the perfection of faith since it combines in itself all the distinctive qualities of other obligatory acts.

    Believers have been going to Makkah from all corners of the earth representing different colors, languages and races to celebrate the prescribed ceremonies and rituals, and to renew their call of Tawheed, following the example of all the believers, led by the noble Messengers and Prophets of Allah. They go to Makkah to answer the call that the father of the Prophets, Ibrahim, Alayhe as-Salam bore and the seal of the Prophets Muhammad, sallallaho alayhe wa sallam, called people to. After heeding this call and going round the House (Tawaf), performing the Sa’i between Safa and Marwa and staying at Arafat, they return home. They leave as sinless as those newly born. The Prophet said: A Mabroor or sound Hajj (the one accepted by Allah) has no reward other than Paradise [[Bukhari. Vol 3:H#1].

    According to most scholars Hajj was made obligatory for the Muslims in the ninth year after Hijra. Allah says: :Hajj thereto is a duty people owe to Allah, those who can afford the journey, but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures [3:97].

    The Prophet did only one Hajj in the tenth year after Hijra. The Prophet said: O People, Allah has made Hajj an obligation upon you therefore perform Hajj [Muslim. Vol 2:H# 3095].

    From the time of decision followed by preparation for Hajj to the time of returning home an impact is made on the hearts and minds of the believers. It needs sacrifice of time, money, comfort, physical desires and pleasure all for the sake of love for Allah, and Allah has declared that He accepts the sacrifice of the people who have Taqwa (are conscience and fearful of Allah) [5:27].

    The believers complete the prescribed rituals of Hajj (Manasik) which include the observation of the state of Ihram, Tawaf of the Ka’ba, Sa’i of as-Safa and al-Marwa, stay at Arafat, Muzdalifa and Mina, Rami of Jamarats, slaughtering of Hady (animals) [2:158, 196-200].

    The first House of worship appointed for mankind was at Makkah, called Bakkah in the Qur’an [3:96] which was later rebuilt by Ibrahim, also the Ayah [14:37] confirm the fact that the House was already there where Ibrahim came to Makkah with his wife Hajar. The word Ka’bah means cube.

    Ibrahim’s distinction is not simply his readiness to sacrifice his son but his willingness to give up his most precious belonging to the service of Allah , thus without parallel in the history of mankind. In Mina, the pilgrim practice a symbolic stoning of Shaytan that refers to the experience of the father and son of a hard test from Allah in which they defeated Shaytan who tried desperately to tempt them to disobey the Divine instructions. Thus he and his progeny were chosen by Allah to lead humanity to the true path to Allah, Subhanahu wa-Taala. His progeny became leaders doing good deeds (Khair), establishing Prayers (Salat) and giving regular charity [2:124; 21:73].

    When the Call of Prophet Muhammad, sallallaho alayhe wa sallam was nearing completion, he announced his intention to perform the Hajj. The Prophet made Hajj only once in his life time but all the rituals performed by him and taught by him have remained a model for the succeeding generations and will insha’Allah remain so till the Day of Judgement.

    Meeting in Arafat is a significant Sunnah of the Prophet. During Hajj, on the eighth day of Dhul Hijjah, in front of over 120,000 people at Arafat, the Prophet gave a speech which has remained the epoch making farewell speech. In this historic speech the Prophet declared in unequivocal terms:

    O People! Listen to what I say. I do not know whether I will ever meet you at this place once again after the current year, It is unlawful for you to shed the blood of one another or take (unlawfully) the fortunes of one another. O People Fear Allah concerning women clothe and feed them suitably. verily, I have left amongst you the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger which if you hold fast, you shall never go astray..O People, I am not succeeded by any Prophet.worship your Lord, pray five times, fast the month of Ramadan, offer Zakat, I recommend you to do the Hajj to the Sacred House of your Lord and to obey those who are in charge of you then you will be awarded Paradise.
    [Ar-Raheeq al-Makhtum, by Safiur Rahman Mubarakpuri].

    Soon after the completion of the speech the following Ayah was revealed to him:

    This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion [5:3].

    Millions of people have been following the footsteps of the noble Prophet(s) (peace be upon all of them) of Allah, Subhanahu wa-Taala and will continue to do so insha’Allah. It doesn’t matter for Islam, who abuse it or who accepts it. Islam doesnt need any1. Allah will decide people’s fate based on their deeds.

    PS: No more argument from my side. Trust if u want, dont trust if u want. Choice is urs.

  68. @Azah

    Again, I ask where is the historical basis. The zamzam water source could have a natural feeding spring and story was built up around it as well. There are numerous waters sources that have been in existences for thousands and thousands of years. Still doesn’t prove any historical evidence of Muhammad.

  69. FYI zamzam water has got to be the worst tasting water I have ever tasted…and I’ve drank gallons of the stuff. Incidently I drank it while very very sick…and it did nothing to cure me as commonly believed. It’s just water…bad tasting water but just water.

    Next to the kaba is a huge footprint that is supposed to be Abrahams….are we meant to believe that this one gigantic footprint is a real depiction of the size of Abraham..and the fact that he apparently had only one leg..leaving only ONE footprint and all. Muslims aren’t allowed to look to closely at it either…its encased and nobody is allowed to dawdle around it for a closer look. Does that make it an historical archeological artifcat…or a gimmick to draw and inspire the masses?

  70. I had zamzam water while I was in Damascus. It definitely had an odd taste.

    Interesting about Abraham’s giant footprint!

  71. Yes, there is a spring. It was there way before Mohammed and to just invent some myths around it with people who were never there, who lived in an entirely different part of the globe, I mean come on!
    And all this stuff about seven times this, seven times that. What everybody who runs around seven times and you find a well?
    And running around the kaaba seven times, come on Superstition is dripping of it!

    Come on! Blood sacrifices, doing weird stuff like walking around something seven times, throwing rocks at imaginary devils, kissing a stone with ”magical” properties from the gods, wearing clothes similar to what Indians wear when visiting temples, drinking ”magical” water, from a ”magical” well which doesn’t do anybody any good, kneeling towards a pile of rocks five time a day…

    What is here which doesn’t look like a pagan ritual???

  72. Did Mohammed SallAllah Alayhe As-Salam Really Exist???

    I read an article in the wall street journal couple of years ago. It was quite fascinating ….

    Professor Hired for Outreach to Muslims Delivers a Jolt
    Islamic Theologian’s Theory: It’s Likely the Prophet Muhammad Never Existed

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122669909279629451.html

  73. @Azad – So how frequently did Ibrahim go back and spend time with his wife and other son?

    You do realise that your version of the story does not match the biblical story. Right?

  74. @bigstick,

    “The only accounts that Muhammad actually existed is from the koran, muslim biographies and the hadith.”

    You seem to be looking for a silver bullet proof. As in one specific evidence such as a photograph or an outside historian walking with the man. History was not recorded in such manner those days. What you have to look for is a combination of pieces of evidence that in total make it hard to dismiss the premise that the man existed:

    – The Quran: Yes there could be issues in the way it was collected. Pieces of it can be wrong, changes or even lost. However, there was an effort to collect it only a few short years after the death of the prophet. Now remember this a period where Muslims were already invading places like the fertile Crescent.
    – Hadith (ex. Bukhari) and the biography (Ibn Ishag). You are too quick to dismiss these are just Muslims documents as if they were inventions to document a none existent legend. Those 2 actually acted as historians. They authenticated sources. Traced lineages of the stories.Collaborated the stories from different sources. Looked for historic markers like battles and authenticated the event leading to and during. Did they get everything at 100% accuracy, probably not, but their work is legitimate history.
    – Historic markers with outside empires: Even before the death of the prophet, Muslims were having scrimmages with the Byzantine empire. Only 5 short years after the death of the prophet Muslims were already capable of the siege Jerusalem in 637. Where do you think these people came from and would they have been able to create this legend and religion in such short time?
    – Jewish tribe stories: There were Jewish tribes that were conquered by the prophet. Surviving members of those tribes told of the same stories as was recorded in Hadith. Good example of this is the Banu Quraizah. i.e. not all the stories come from Islamic sources.
    – Ancient sites: There are true archaeological sites like the Mosque of the 2 Qiblas which corporate the story of Jerusalem as the first Qiblah. There are others here like the Medina mosque it self and ancient burial grounds of Muslims from the prophets era.
    -Works by contemporary poets: Arabs treasured poetry and preserved it. This includes poetry against the prophet (i.e. none Muslim sources). There are many poems that survived from that era encouraging people to fight the prophet. I have read one by Asma bint Marwan. If you want to research this topic search for Islam Dead Poets Society.

    There is more, but this is getting long. I know there are legends out there especially when it comes to religions. However, the story of Mohammad can be collaborated using multiple pieces of evidence. It is one where you can actually separate the fact from legend.

  75. @MoQ

    There is at about a one hundred year gap on history that cannot be accounted for and there are numerous scholars who did question the very existence of Muhammad.

    I will have a hard time believing that he wasn’t a crafted or just some random individual used for the purposes of history to embellish the existence of Muhammad. My understanding is that under the Umayyad dynasty is where the story possibly emerged and two factions played against one another in one side praise Muhammed the other side inventing hadith to suit their needs to oppose the other side. This created the hadith and stories of Muhammad. .

    These articles have other scholars names who have different theories.

    http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/pdf/compass/hico_058.pdf

    http://www.davidstuff.com/historical/mecca.htm

    I am open to proving he as a man existed.

  76. Not to mention…if we compare the relative size of Abraham based on that one footprint…against the size of the kaba…the kaba would hardly be a size that would promote a haj type scenario…too small. hmmm….

  77. @bigstick,

    “There is at about a one hundred year gap on history that cannot be accounted for and there are numerous scholars who did question the very existence of Muhammad.”

    What 100 year gap?
    Who are those scholars and what is there status as historians?

    I am afraid you have not made an argument, just some generalities here. By the way, just saying scholar A says something does not mean much if his/her work is not supported with good research. That is just an appeal to authority (argumentum ad verecundiam) form of a fallacy.

    You also did not get my argument that evidence in this case is not based on one item. It is many pieces of evidence when combined make very strong evidence.

    Regarding the Umayyad dynasty, you know that empire started less than 30 years after the death of Mohammad (i.e. there goes your missing 100 years theory).

    Second point on this is the origin of the empire. The founder of the Umayyad (Muawyah) was the son of Ibn Sofian the ruler of the Kaffir Mecca at the time of Muhammad. The Ummayyad’s in a way lost power with the invasion of Mecca, but preserved status because of Othman (who was part of the clan). The founder, also a contemporary of Mohamad, became the general responsible of modern day Syria. After the death of Othman, the split happened in the Khalifah rule as Muawyah did not accept Ali and many battles ensued. That was the famous start of teh Sunni Shiiat split. So really this also is another proof. The split of Shiiat and Sunnah would not exist if there was no war between the Ummyad’s (in Syria) and Ali (in Madena). If Muhammad did not exist why would have been a power base in Medina?

  78. @ MoQ

    No there does not go my argument on the Umayyad dynasty as the dynasty started around 661 ce to about 750 ce. In the beginning the dynasty was not religious then toward the very end of this dynasty a small group of devotes started creating hadith showing allegience to the supposed prophet and Ali (Slain son-in-law), the then rulers to keep from being initimidated or ousted then created additional hadith to get what they wanted and this went back and forth for a while. Then UD was overthrown and the Abbasids dynasty took over until the 12 or 13 century. Once under the Abbasid Dynasty the hadith created slam into overdrive and hadith are produced at a drop of a hat for just about anything.

    I will address the rest later as it is getting late and I have taken Nyquil for a cold and starting to really feel the effects.

  79. @bigstick,

    And your proof for all of this conspiracy is?

    Remember extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This Hadith manufacturing factory is an extraordinary claim.

    Note all what you said above is hadith is all made up. That is a different argument than Mohammad is a legend. For you to make him into a legend you have to find logical arguments to dismiss all the other evidence also.

    By the way my position of Hadith is it is mostly true . Say somewhere around 90% with about 10% either made up at some point to support a political argument or had errors in collection methods. I do not believe in giant conspiracies like hadith is all made up or controlled demolition of the WTC ;)

    I hope you get some good rest and feel better….

  80. But MoQ, you weren’t using hadith as examples of the many corroborating stories to prove that Mohammed existed? What other sources of ‘proof’ that he existed do you have?

  81. Read above…..

  82. What the hell was I thinking last night? I can’t believe I didn’t call you on that crap. Unbelievable. How in the hell do you call historical evidence a conspiracy? Given me a break. Why don’t you give me proof of your conspiracy. I was loopy on NyQuil last night not to call you on that statement. Un- Fing Believeable.

    “And your proof for all of this conspiracy is?

    Remember extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This Hadith manufacturing factory is an extraordinary claim.
    Note all what you said above is hadith is all made up. That is a different argument than Mohammad is a legend. For you to make him into a legend you have to find logical arguments to dismiss all the other evidence also.”

    Let’s take a look at the evidence shall we:

    Here is where we started off at on the actually documentation of Muhammed.

    The only accounts that Muhammad actually existed is from the koran, muslim biographies and the hadith. Muhammad is reported to have died around 632 CE, with the earliest known material on his life written by Ibn Ishaq in 750 CE. Almost 120 years after the fact. The original work of Ibn Ishaq was lost and can only be accounted for in part by Ibn Hisham who died in 834 CE. That is 200 years later. Now other sources are Ibn Ishaq, died in 768 CE, Ibn Hisham died in 834 CE, Sayf b. Umar, he die in 796, Ali b. Muhammad al Madain died in 840 CE, Al Tabari who died in 923 CE, Muhammad Ibn Sa’d who died in 843 and Al -Waqidi who died in 823 CE.

    Then Hisham’s work was translated by Alfred Guillaume under the title, The Life of Muhammad in 1955 by Oxford Press. Abd al-Malik ibn Hisham’s “Life of Muhammad” relied on the earlier works (Remember that was by Ibn Ishaq whose works were lost). Ulmar al-Waqidi of Medina, who died in 825 CE produced a work, which portions of which have survived, called “The Expeditions of Muhammad”. The History of al-Tabari was written by Abu Muhammad bin al-Tabari between 870 and 920 CE

    Again Muhammed died in 632 CE and the oldest know document of Muhammed’s life was 120 years after his death.
    Hadith:

    The first collection of the hadith was by al-bukhari in 850CE that is 228 years after the death of Muhammad. That is two hundred twenty-eight (228) years after the death of Muhammed. Again the first known accounting of Muhammad’s life was by Ibn Ishaq approximately one hundred and twenty (120) years after his death. This work was lost and no one can collaborate if it was even transmitted properly to the rest. Wonder why?

    So let’s just put down the hadith collectors and their deaths.

    1) al-Bukhari (d. 870) 237 years after death of Muhammed
    2) Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj (d. 875) 243 years after
    3) Ibn Maja (d. 887) 255 years after
    4) Abu Dawud (d. 889) 257 years after
    5) al-Tirmidhi (d. 892) 260 years after
    6) al-Nisai (d. 915) 283 years after

    Then there is Ahmed ibn Hanbal (d. 855) on traditions called Musnad and it contains an UNBELIEVABLE amount of traditions some 29000 which has been supposedly subjected to “pious reading.” This was 223 years after the death of Muhammed.

    http://debate.org.uk/topics/coolcalm/muhammad.html

    This is taken from the above website:

    “Of greater significance, the first occurrence of what Nevo calls the “Triple Confession of Faith,” including the Tawhid (that God is one), the phrase, Muhammad rasul Allah (that Muhammad is his prophet), and the human nature of Jesus (rasul Allah wa- ‘abduhu), is found in ‘Abd al-Malik’s inscription in the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, dated 691 AD (Nevo 1994:110)! Before this inscription the Muslim confession of faith cannot be attested at all. ”

    If you count the Sana’a manuscript which is believed to be fragments of the koran then you get a date between 705 to 715 CE.

    ERGO – History has been written backwards and Muhammed created to fill the void of a prophet to sell a religion that is actually is no more than a politically strategic document to benefit the powers to be and sell it to the legions of men needed to believe in something to fight for. Some old story as the other religions.

    I will end it here for now. Conspiracy theory my butt. There is no historical evidence.

  83. @MoQ

    Here is another website: It makes some excellent points on the hadith.

    http://islamicbooks.info/H-21-Math'habs/Hadith-4.htm

  84. “What the hell was I thinking last night? I can’t believe I didn’t call you on that crap. Unbelievable. How in the hell do you call historical evidence a conspiracy? Given me a break. Why don’t you give me proof of your conspiracy. I was loopy on NyQuil last night not to call you on that statement. Un- Fing Believeable”

    Looks like you need chill pill rather than Nyquile. Yes, saying someone made up big portions of hadith and invented an entire character is the definition of a conspiracy. Getting animated about it and losing your cool is irrational.

    What you have gave me above are dates that I already know. You have not provided anything that proves hadith was manufactured, neither did you provide evidence of Ibn Ishag was not authentic, neither did you provide any evidence of flawed collection methods of hadith, neither did you provide any explanation of poetry talking about Mohammad by contemporaries, neither did you provide evidence that Jewish tribes were involved in the conspiracy by making stories about their massacres by Mohammad, neither did you provide evidence of the quran being created by conspirators etc.

    You did not even provide a framework that ties this alternative story together except there was some power which made up the entire story. Again, you are making the claim, you need to prove it. Do not get upset because we are not accepting it and view it as a conspiracy theory.

    You are using ranting and getting upset as method of providing an argument. That is a bit sophomoric don’t you think?

  85. @ I think it speaks for itself. Apparently you like going straight to conspiracy theories. There is absolutely no proof. Your are the one who even admits that the Abraham, Mose, David, has no proof and was transmitting from story to story. Well, I give you the same on Muhammed. There is no way to prove Ishag is authentic (AS IT IS LOST). There goes that argument right down the drain.

    By the way now I am on codine – Severe sinus infection – Per the doctor this morning. So pardon me on the rant. It struck a nerve.

    However, the list of events are historically verifiable. The first known history of muhammed’s life (by the way it could have been written as a piece of fiction for entertainment for all we know) was written 120 years after the death of Muhammed. That document which I guess could be known at the same level the Christians put their documents sources that was lost from as Q.

    How can you prove that Ibn Ishaq documentation is correct on Muhammed’s life when it has been lost ergo no way to verify, scrunitize, authenicate it or any piece of literature that was written from this source? Answer me that.

    I am not trying to knock your understanding of the muslim faith. Understanding the literature is absolutely necessary to combat the onslaught of fanaticism as that is a necessary way in which to fight and question.

    However, I will not believe based upon the historical documentation that Muhammed existed. Muhammed has the same problem as Abraham, Mose and Jesus. There is absolutely no way to prove his very existence.

    Now why don’t you bring down some sources to me on the Jewish, the poetry, and why you think the process for the hadith was a proven way to authenticate the hadith.

  86. @ MoQ:

    I will discuss the quran a little latter. It took a while to get the information I provided earlier. The medications are making me sleepy. So I will get back with you on it. Feel free though to expound on your understanding of how the quran was formulated and put together. Prove to me he existed and it wasn’t just stories past from one generation to another to another that eventually morphed into a religion.

  87. One thing you need to understand is that you asked for this debate. Go back and look. So for you to get upset about my arguments is a bit childish. Seriously grow some thicker skin or get out of the business of internet debates.

    Regarding why Mohammad is considered historic compared to other characters (Moses Jesus, Abraham), historians depend on multiple corroborating pieces of evidence to separate history from legend. In the case of Mohammad there is plenty of these pieces to stitch strong evidence. I listed those for you above. In the case of the other characters, there are only ancient religious books.i.e. there is no corroboration evidence.

    Your rebuttal sounded like this “look man I read these articles that argue about dates of hadith collection, thus ignore the agreed upon history and accept this version and if you do not accept it then it is you that needs to prove me wrong”. Fact is bigstick you are the one who is challenging mainstream history. This is a fine thing to do, but you are the one who has to provide evidence that counters main stream history.

    You can believe what you like, but if you want me to accept your claim you have to provide something more than what you have done. And by the way do not keep linking me to articles. I do not like debating internet articles, I like to debate people.

    You asked for a poem from contemporary poets. Try this one from Asma Bint Marwan

    باست بني مالك والنبيت وعوف وباست بني الخزرج
    أطعتم أتاوي من غيركم فلا من مراد ولا مذحج
    ترجونه بعد قتل الرءوس كما يرتجى مرق المنضج
    ألا أنف يبتغي غرة فيقطع من أمل المرتجي

    It is a poem about her tribe submitting to the prophet. It got her killed. There are other poems of other poets answering her. Sorry I cannot translate poetry. However, there is a wealth of poetry not just about Mohammad, but also about contemporaries like Ali, Muawiayh, etc. All corroborate the stories of early Islam. Way before Bukhari and Ibn Ishag.

    As you know debates do not usually end up with either person accepting the other’s point of view. It is usually about who makes his/her point to people watching (reading in this case). I think I have done my best at this point, unless you can come up with something stronger that we can talk about.

    I hope you feel better..

  88. Big, good discussion, this.

    Let me give you my take on this (in a few words). I have read pretty much the same materials that are listed above. One can make a case that the hadith and life of Mohammad are pretty much fiction. In fact, there are writings that analyze how the hadith change and even add new details over time, so at AD 750 AD, Mohammad is leading his men on a raid, by 850 AD we know not only the name of the men, but what they were wearing and how much loot was taken. A true miracle! There is a book that details this “evolution” of information.

    On the other hand, I like to assume that the hadith are true and reliable and that Mohammad existed and did the things written about him by early Muslims.

    Why? because it suits my purposes — duhhhhh. The hadith could well have been written by Mohammed’s enemies, given the amount of damming material recorded. The hadith make it sooooo easy for people that dislike Islam. Too bad that Muslims don’t read their own writings. Note also that the hadith do, in fact, pretty much reinforce the Quran and explain the circumstances of most verses. This could be either because their are accurate records or it could have been an a posteriori attempt to explain and amplify sunna and sharia rulings.

  89. @Moq

    The Quran: Yes there could be issues in the way it was collected. Pieces of it can be wrong, changes or even lost. However, there was an effort to collect it only a few short years after the death of the prophet. Now remember this a period where Muslims were already invading places like the fertile Crescent.

    Answer:

    There is no original Quran in existence. The earliest known Quran is the Sana’a manuscript which Gerd Puin states differs from the original. Earliest date is 705 to 715 CE. However this manuscript is currently not recognized. It is said to differ from the original quran and the dating of this manuscript is still in dispute. So then the next earliest it the qur’an from the 9th century. It is an alleged 7th century original of the edition of the third caliph Uthman but this is disputed since it is written in kufic. The qur’an is located in the small Telyashayakh mosque in en:Tashkent.
    Again, historically, no less than 100 years after the fact up to 300 years after the fact. Current issues with the oldest text that are currently in existence is that scholars have stated that they differ from today’s versions. When they have made attempts to verify or question this they were told to leave or denied further access.

    – Hadith (ex. Bukhari) and the biography (Ibn Ishag). You are too quick to dismiss these are just Muslims documents as if they were inventions to document a none existent legend. Those 2 actually acted as historians. They authenticated sources. Traced lineages of the stories. Collaborated the stories from different sources. Looked for historic markers like battles and authenticated the event leading to and during. Did they get everything at 100% accuracy, probably not, but their work is legitimate history.

    Answer:

    Issue: Ibn Ishaq was written 120 years after the death of Muhammad. It has been lost or destroyed. There is no way to verify the actually validity of the document. Again, it has been lost. Therefore all documents taken from this source cannot be verified or authenticated.

    Note: The story of bint Marwan and her death appears in the works of Ibn Ishaq (again 120 years after the fact and no longer in existence) and Ibn Sa’d (Considered to be an unreliable narrator) . Some classical and post-classical hadith scholars such as Al-Albani, Majdi, and Al-Jawzi have rejected the story declaring it as fabrication, pointing out in their arguments that the chain of transmission all weak.

    QUESTION: Outside of a hadith were is Ali, Muawiayh. Could you provide so relevant source that a timeline can be traced on this one.

    Al-Bukhari (born 810-870) Collect 300,000 hadith during his lifetime and over 2000 traditions. He then condensed them down to what is allegedly reliable. My understanding of 7,275 hadith. So isnad was used which is a telephone game of so and so heard so and so who heard so and so say this. You will never convince me on this one about so and so and so and so said therefore it must be. This is just highly subjective and quite frankly just about everyone is aware of how inaccurate this game can be. Then one state that it also been confirmed by the quran. Problem there is no original quran to collaborate this or authenticated this statement.

    – Historic markers with outside empires: Even before the death of the prophet, Muslims were having scrimmages with the Byzantine empire. Only 5 short years after the death of the prophet Muslims were already capable of the siege Jerusalem in 637. Where do you think these people came from and would they have been able to create this legend and religion in such short time?

    Answer:

    Give me some actually references.

    – Jewish tribe stories: There were Jewish tribes that were conquered by the prophet. Surviving members of those tribes told of the same stories as was recorded in Hadith. Good example of this is the Banu Quraizah. i.e. not all the stories come from Islamic sources.

    Answer:

    Again we are back to the hadith and they were written at least 150 years after the fact.

    Banu Quraizah was taken from a hadith. Give me a non- islamic source.

    – Ancient sites: There are true archaeological sites like the Mosque of the 2 Qiblas which corporate the story of Jerusalem as the first Qiblah. There are others here like the Medina mosque itself and ancient burial grounds of Muslims from the prophets era.

    -Works by contemporary poets: Arabs treasured poetry and preserved it. This includes poetry against the prophet (i.e. none Muslim sources). There are many poems that survived from that era encouraging people to fight the prophet. I have read one by Asma bint Marwan. If you want to research this topic search for Islam Dead Poets Society.

    Answer:

    I have already discussed this poem above.

    There have been a number of scholars who have questioned the existence and history of muhammed. They have been shut down, intimidated, kept from teaching, or killed. Muslim countries have blasphemy laws in place to keep people from questioning the origins and the text. Original documents of the quran or the first accounting of muhammed have either been lost or destroy. Question, why? There were over 600,000 hadith that had to be sifted through and they were examined based upon material that is unattainable. How can you verify as the original quran and documents are no longer in existence. If they ever existed as it is theorized by some that history was written back to Muhammed. He life was actually created and written to 632 AD.

    There are some who state that the language that the quran is being read in is incorrect and that it is actually a mish mash of Christian and Jewish texts.

    Scholars who are in islamic studies who come to a realization or have a different opinion or analysis are drummed out of the field. The mainstream you are talking about are currently destroying the original sites so that history cannot be examined. Why? What are they hiding? What is it they don’t want known?

    Okay what else do you have for me? Did you want to move this to the debate section?

  90. If you know about Gerd Puin’s work on the oldest Qurans you kow that these Qurans have pages which have been wiped and rewritten, that passages have changed, hat chapters have been hussled about, but that there were no enormous changes.
    Of course chapters were hussled about, the current Qurans show an order which is based on an ancient Persian literary method, from the longest chapter to the shortest chapter. Instead of for example compiling it chronologically. That was a choice made at some point in time.
    Yes, a lot of words could easily have been wrongly translated, either from the other language words used in the Quran, or by wrongly adding the dots to the writing, thereby changing their meaning, for example women having to cover could just as well have meant the advice to wear a girdle around the hips. But none of all this is ”prove” that the Quran as a book was made up. And why would anybody want to do that? I do think you are going overboard with your theories.

  91. Aafke-Art:

    So you believe that Allah came down and gave the book to Muhammed and it was translated to the masses then?

  92. Aafke-Art:

    Recently, Christoph Luxenberg suggested that the Dome of the Rock was a Christian Church built as a memorial to Jesus containing Christian inscriptions which record, amongst other things, the theological disputes between the camps of the Hellenised and Syrian Christians regarding the divinity of Jesus. Thus phrase muḥammadun ‘abdullāhi wa rasūluhū on the Dome of the Rock does not mean ‘Muhammad is the slave of God and his Messenger’, rather it means ‘Praised be the slave of God and His messenger’ which Luxenberg considers as a plain unambiguous reference to Jesus.

    Remember wasn’t it Moq that stated that virgins were raisins. That is Luxenberg interpretation. It also is the one that make the most sense.

    The Quran has a great deal of Judeo-Christian aspects leading some researchers to believe that the texts where bits and pieces of Jewish and Christian theology. It was later mish mashed together and placed into a difficult language to read. Luxenberg uses of the Syo-Aramaic language. Luxenberg also argues that the Qur’an is based on earlier texts, namely Syriac lectionaries used in the Christian churches of Syria, and that it was the work of several generations who adapted these texts into the Quran we know today.

    In other words, there is absolutely no proof of Mohammed ever existed. The Quran has no original documented because it is part of the lecture given to Christians. Therefore, Mohammed’s life grew from a legend.

  93. We know from Muslim histories that there were multiple readings and variations between verses. We also know that when Uthman commanded the so-called finalized, official version to be complied, he ordered all other versions to be burnt and even whipped those that did not obey. Even so, there are no early copies (prior to about 900 AD) in existence and the oldest show corrections and erasures. For obvious reasons, Muslims are not keen on research into this matter. Muslims now generally use the 1920s Cairo Version. In fact, we have Biblical texts that are much closer to original time-period sources than the Quran does.

    And there is also the no small matter of how and what format the many pieces were kept before Uthman. Aisha tells the story of a goat that ate a few precious pages of the Quran (must have been the “love and peace” verses missing from current text!). Some verses were written on bones and bricks, but most were memorized (good luck with that!). One of the main reasons that Uthman ordered the compilation is because so many of the original followers were being killed (by other Muslims!) in the inter-Muslim religious wars.

    The facts clearly tell us that the Quran was assembled long after Mohammad’s death and there is no way to prove that it is unchanged or even if it existed at all before 850-900 AD.

  94. @ Jay

    Where does the story of Uthman come from is it the hadith or is there really a historical marker for Uthman?

  95. @ Jay

    It is may understanding that no official book on the Sana’a manuscripts have actually come out at this time. The manuscript is still being reviewed. I am not aware of it being challenged on the date given or if other scholars have even had a chance to review copies of the document or findings. That leaves it in the air and truly cannot be used to justify an earlier timeframe at this point.

    As far as I know only there has been an interview with Puin where he touched on a few areas. Not the whole of the manuscript. Unless someone can direct me to something more and then I am inclined to use this one just to show that it proves that the Quran has different variation to the current texts.

  96. @Jay

    Here is some more interesting information. MoQ doesn’t like when I use internet sites. You may however find it interesting.

    http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htm

  97. bigstick, no, I think Mohammed made it up as he saw fit. Whenever people do not want to do what he wants there is almost immediately a revelation telling people to do what Mohammed wants.
    It’s a bit suspicious
    And of course large parts of he Quran are simply plagiarized from the bible and the hora, as well as other earlier writings and poetry.
    Does it matter? Large parts of the Thora and bible were themselves plagiarized from earlier religions. That’s how religions come to be. Laer religions will also build on the bible and the Quran in their turn. And they will also claim to be coming directly from a god or gods.

    It’s obvious the Quran was largely compiled using older texts. Especially when Mohammed has more power and more knowledgeable people around him the sura’s get longer, more complicated and plagiarize more. A give-away. But the basics seems to have been put together in a very short period of time, later adapted a bit, and of course Uthman compiled his preferred version and destroyed the others, so there were changes/adaptations from the very first, and/or some details were changed by misspellings or translations, but that doesn’t mean there was no Quran.

    And the same with the hadith, of course they have been messed around with a bit. I have no doubt details were changed or added, and some that were liked got more preference, but most of them are largely the stories of people in a certain period of time, who were going around assassinating, pillaging and murdering and enslaving and they were proud of it.

  98. @Aafke-Art:

    In the 1999 Atlantic Monthly article referenced below, Gerd Puin is quoted as saying that:[1]

    “My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on.”

    First Gerd Puin has changed his story since then and I find that interesting. You have wonder if there is some internal presure to be quite about this. Also why would someone as brilliant as this man is initially say this and then say no it just small changes. Now Harry provided an article about another German scjholar working at a University that recently made a statement that Muhammed probably never existed. He will no longer be allowed to teach Islamic studies. There are people who wonder if he will be killed. He is supposedly going to be allowed to continue working there but in a different field having nothing to do with Islamic studies. Why? Now all of a sudden you must believe in Islam to teach the subject?

    Puin is not the only scholar that has questioned the fact that the a fifth of the Quranic text is just incomprehensible. There are scholar who have question this and they are shut down or shut up. That well known. I find it interesting, don’t you?

  99. The Holy Quran contains many scientific facts that were discovered years after the revelation. e.g.: the very first revelation itself describes the implantation of the egg in the womb [Q96:1-2], the deep ocean darkness [Q24:40], the mountains as pegs [Q78:7], the thermohaline circulation [Q55:19-20] etc.

    It even revealed the future – if I understand it right – such as the sea will warm & rise [Q82:3, Q81:6], the sun will kuwwirat (wound round and lost its light; and is overthrown) [Q81:1] etc.

    Only Allah Knows Best. والله أعلم

    Truly, I see the unawareness here and sometimes I feel I have the knowledge to share. But my only shortcoming is I don’t know if my knowledge is welcomed. Thus I do not feel I should be where it is not welcomed. But I do write this simply to say, there is greater greater greater knowledge that is so very missing here.

    i hope if Allah SWT bless light in the darkness here. amen.

  100. @Nisa – If you have greater knowledge then I think you should feel compelled to share it. It shouldn’t concern you if some here might not ‘welcome’ your knowledge there could be just as many that do welcome it. Unless, of course, your knowledge comes from the ‘light of spirituality’ or something because that is not knowldge, it is ‘belief’

  101. @Nisa

    There is nothing new in the Quran that was not known before and the descriptions on how the process of how a child is conceived was even discussed during the Greek era and it is similar to what is stated. Some philosopher even speculated about sub-particles “atoms.”

    So you think a mountain is a peg that holds the earth. Got to tell you science doesn’t upholding that one.

  102. Nisa thank you for bringing up he flawed scientific knowledge of he Quran.
    The description of the fetus in the Quran is wrong.
    The quran states the men’s semen comes from his backbone, wrong!
    The quran says a fetus is formed of a clot of blood, wrong!
    the quran says the bones are formed before the flesh, Wrong!
    Actually, what he quran describes is exactly what Greco roman science described long, long before mohammed was born. This faulty science was known at the time, and so it was written in the Quran, And today, when we know how a fetus really comes into existence, it is proof that the Quran was writen by fallible men.

  103. I think that for those of us who simply have the faith to believe do not require scientific proof or statements.

  104. Nisa,

    Re: Scientific Miracles in the Koran

    To add more to what Big Stick stated, muslims are well known to exaggerate the facts to fit the case i.e. to prove the scientific miracles in the koran …

    Many muslims still claim that man’s landing on moon was predicted according to some verse in the koran and some hadees something to do with mohammed’s miracle of splitting of the moon. The most bizarre/hilarious thing that one still finds on many muslim websites is that Neil Armstrong heard the muslim adhan as soon as he stepped on the moon surface and immediately blurted out the shahada. Another bizarre claim is that Alexander the Great was amongst the 125,000 prophets sent by allah to mankind and his name is Dhul Kernain in koran.

    Nisa, koran is not a scientific book nor it is a book of miracles. After having read a dozen or so translations of koran, I lean more towards koran being a book of history i.e. mohammed’s version of history.

    Here’s a link to demonstrate how ludicrously easy it is to prove that any ancient poetry can be reinterpreted to reveal ‘scientific miracles’. :)-

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Georgics

  105. Re: Nisa // Miracles in the Koran

    When evaluating claims of miraculous scientific information in “revealed” scriptures such as the koran, it is critical to remember the dictum, “Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.”

    For certainly, miracles are not to be taken lightly. If miracles really are the results of direct intervention by God/gods, and if they truly are meant as signs to prove both his/her/their existence and power, then we should expect them to serve those purposes in a clear and unambiguous manner.

    If God is going through all that trouble to provide us with signs, it would defeat his purpose to make the signs difficult to recognize. Here is an
    excellent article ……

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Science

  106. Nisa, Your comments are welcome.
    But you are the one who is not knowledgeable. Because we all know about these claims, and we all know they are debunked. They are no miracles. There is nothing there.
    You are the one who is not knowledgeable about your own claims, because you do not know hey are busted.

    Check out science a bit. You know, it only takes about 5 minutes on the net to find out if these claims are any good. And you will find out they are bunked.

    It is actually a big mistake of the religious to make these silly claims which are so easy to prove wrong. Anybody who is not completely brainwashed will start thinking, ”If that is wrong what else is wrong?” And before you know it bind faith is out, rationality and knowledge come in,
    Religion loses.
    Again.

  107. Nisa, here is a simple video which explains the knowledge of the time and why it is very unlikely that Mohammed and the people around him did not know about it

  108. @Carol – ‘I think that for those of us who simply have the faith to believe do not require scientific proof or statements’

    Which is absolutely fine as long as y’all don’t try to use ‘scientific proof’ that is incorrect as proof that your religion has got to be ‘true’.

  109. My assessment is religion and faith are two separate things. Religion is a dogma that is imposed and enforced. Faith is the belief beyond the known and the hope of something greater. Religion is a shackle that bounds us and faith sets us free to soar. They are diametrically opposed to one another in my view.

  110. @ Jay/MoQ

    Here is more on the language of the Quran.

    http://www.livius.org/opinion/Luxenberg.htm

  111. Just to point out something about the “splitting of the moon”…one would have to believe that something that extrordinary would have been recorded by the other portion of the planet that were not muslims at the time…after all…anyone at all could have simply raised their eyes to the heavens and watched that miracle for themselves and after getting over their collective shock…hurried to record it for all of posterity. Except we don’t have that…we have only islamic sources describing this scene…much like the miracles of the bible are only witnessed by one , some, or a few…but not by hordes of people that should have been available to witness AND record it in their own books of history….the least being the actual existence of jesus himself.

  112. Archeological and historical documents do put much of the bibicial accountings in place far closer than Islamic history. There is no proof Jesus existed though. The story of Jesus has different accountings as well amoug the gospels and the primary source Q, which historians speculate as the source document is not available as well. Q could have also been a piece of entertainment for the masses that later morphed to a legend. It is also believe by many that Jesus’s history was written backwards but the timelines are closer than Muhammad’s. In addition, there are more historical accuracies that can be located indicating the historical stance of the bible. It is just the figures are nothing more than stories.

    Really until 120 to 130 years after the fact did the accounting of Muhammed’s life become detailed by Ibn Ishaq and the work is now gone or destroyed. The Quran has very little details of Muhammeds’s life. The Hadith for the most part were written 150 years to 300 years after the fact. Yes, I would say there is a problem from an archeological and historical point of stating that this man as described ever lived. There are also historical contradictions that much of what the hadith state about the battles are incorrect or conflicting raising even further doubt and more questions.

  113. Let me clarify its figures such as Mary, Joseph, Abraham, Mose, David, Jesus are nothing more than stories.

  114. bigstick…I do find it interesting that after making the Virgin Birth of Jesus through his mother Mary such a focal point of jesus life….proving how miraculous he was etc etc…mary pretty much ceases to exist after that. She is not mentioned in the bible much after that. Her job is done…so much for the sanctity of motherhood…even giving birth to god doesn’t get you more than a few pages in the bible.

  115. @Coolred38:

    Remember religion isn’t about faith or even about family it is a dogma that says my way or the highway. Inside that dogma are core issues that must be adhere to so that control can be maintained, future legions to raise, and enough fluff to sell it. I truly dislike what religion does to humanity.

    People try to sell it in many ways. Here is but another way.

    http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-did-jesus-mean-when-he-said-we-must-hate-our-family

  116. Mary is mentioned in the book of John when it is believed that Jesus performed his first miracle in turning water to wine. She and her additional sons are mentioned at different times as they went through their own periods of stages of belief. Then nearing the end, Jesus asks John to look after his mother as if John’s own.

  117. @ AB

    What if Mary had not decided to not chose the new religion then what would have happened to her then?

  118. She probably would have been seen as lost.

  119. “While Mary is not mentioned much in the Bible until the crucifixion— the Bible was after all written by chauvinistic men living in a patriarchal society who considered women mere vessels or incubators for a child since semen was erroneously believed to contain the whole infant”

    Which makes it incredible to me that “chauvinistic men living in a patriarchal society” would purposefully take out the need of a man (who had the semen that contained the whole infant according to your statement.) How in the world was a mere incubator able to pull of such a miraculous feat? How was a mere woman able to produce a son without the help of the all-important male sperm?

    And if you say it was just legend, fine. But why again why would those chauvinistic Bible writers credit chattel with such a thing and then go and worship and create a whole religion about someone a woman was somehow able to produce without the help of a man?

  120. bigstick, rather than following a new religion, I like to think that Jesus wanted relationships with people. He thought he could make them into people pleasing to God by teaching them to serve others and seek the best for others. Mary recognized Jesus for who he was before he was born (thanks to angel Gabriel probably :)). At least this is the impression I get after reading what the Bible writers had to say about her.

  121. I never understood it to be about a ‘new religion’ either. Certainly not in the same sense as when Mohammed came and said ‘I have a new religion for you and you will be called Muslims’ (paraphrasing but my Arabic is lacking ;-))

  122. @ Susanne430:

    First there is absolutely no proof that any of these characters actually lived and it is a fairytale for me. Going on that and this what I believe. The first thing is that God is the father which implies male. So Mary was impregnated by the ultimate male figure. Second, there is actually numerous gospels that were thrown out so there is actually no real way to really knowing what a theoretical Jesus wanted particular since that are no written accounts from Jesus himself. Very convenient by the. In addition, there are many ways to interrupt the New Testament including that we should be adhering to the laws of the Old Testament. You can state that certain passages where meant to correct, were meant to reset the button to the Old Testament due to the Pharisee’s immorality, you can say just about whatever you want to say. That is the problem with the Bible and so many of these holy books. They are open to interruption and in that interruption it allows great evil and sometimes great good. However, no matter how you spin it, it creates great division and a cult. You must adhere to the tenets or you are lost to us. You are not part unless you believe as I believe or your soul is forever more damned. Make no mistake the core is still there to follow the tenents or else.

    If you don’t like term new religion then call it a new spin on the old religion.

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