Saudi Arabia: Islamaphobia, Westernophobia – Where Shall the Two Meet?

To begin with I think individuals are more likely to comment in manners upon blogs that they would not do so in a face-to-face situation.  Secondly, I believe that Islamaphobia and Westernophobia are both on the rise.  Instead of more bridges being built towards fostering understanding, walls are going up quickly.

Why are Eastern Muslims and Western non-Muslims so critical of one another?  Why do they so incessantly want to prove that only one is right and other is wrong if sharing incompatible views?

Is there an innate fear that an Eastern Muslim feels of Western non-Muslims and vice-versa?  Are each afraid the other would destroy or defile their world?

During the time I spent in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the East I did not feel any kind of imbalance.  I was half of a bi-cultural marriage to a lovely Saudi man.  We experienced the odd situation where either an Eastern Muslim or non-Muslim Westerner did not know how to accept but over time those lines of acceptance or non-acceptance seemed to blur.  Speaking frankly there was a faster and greater acceptance of me by Eastern Muslims than necessarily by Western non-Muslims to my (late) Saudi husband.

However, now, at least on blogs, there appears to be less tolerance by both groups.  What exactly does each group fear of another?  If the answer to that question can be answered and reconciled then a large milestone would be achieved.

Putting faith aside, people are people with the same genuine concerns and fears.  Each of us is either a son or a daughter.  Some may also have the title of husband or wife.  We all have concerns for our families and want the best for our families.  We may have been raised under different customs, cultures, traditions and faith but there are commonalities.  Perhaps if we were to begin focusing on commonalities and then work our way to somewhat sensitive subjects we can set a foundation that will allow for open communications and bridge building.

Eastern Muslims and Western non-Muslims are here to stay.  Unless one wants to truly isolate themselves, we need to foster understanding to co-exist.  I’d like to believe that at American Bedu we do have a capability to hold a non-heated and meaningful dialogue on this subject.

 

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228 Responses

  1. good thoughts

  2. I worked for a time with CAIR in Ohio, and heard some really upsetting stories about how Muslims were treated. However, for the most part, I thought the Muslim Community was more integrated with the Community than in Oregon. I think that some Muslims in Oregon create their own problems in the way they act in public. As a Muslim there, I only had two incidents, one when I was wearing a Niqab, and the other when I had been Volunteering at the VA Hospital there when an old Vet had called me a terrorist.

    I thought that was pretty good for a 5 year time frame. I always wore my Hijab and long skirt with modest top and no pants. The smile and friendly hello is a big deterrent to bad talk. Here in the US, I do not see much danger of that being misinterpreted.

    Some people mistakenly assume that certain nut cases on you-tube are typical of Muslims; the guy explaining how to beat your wife; the guy making ridiculous pronouncements about not plucking the eye brows. I have long wondered how I could be corrected for makeup by sisters here in the US but some of the best eye makeup I have ever seen is on Saudi women. Yallah, what am I to do.

    We got guys like Glen Beck off the news, and there are others who spread hate, but Allah SWT will deal with them too.

  3. Would this have anything to do with comments on this blog?

  4. Gwendoly, I assume nothing except that a Muslim believes the Quran and consider Mohammad to be a great ‘moral’ example. That is enough to send up red flags. Obviously your values are not mine. I think murder, plunder, torture, slavery, killing, rape and abuse to be wrong. I believe in freedom of speech. What about you?

    I assume that Mohammad is typical of Muslim behavior. Enough said.

    I would have said nothing if you had not brought up “guys like Beck”… Not that I care about him, but it is always the infidels, right? For every Beck out there there are a thousand muslims and Imams that teach hate and violence.

    I think Muslims like you need to get your act in order than you can teach us love and peace. I won’t hold my breath.

    See, Carol, it never ends. When will Muslims stop blaming us for the things they do? When will they change their ways and end the hate speech? Dialogue requires refection and honesty, on both sides.

  5. A phobia is an irrational fear. There is no such thing as Islamophobia, because the fear of Islam is very rational.

    Fear of the West by Muslims is irrational, in particular since virtually all Muslims use everything in their daily lives that the West provides. Muslims tell the world all the time that they hate the West, yet they choose to purchase and use everything Western. Even the terrorists use Western technology to commit their crimes. Of course, once they have their goal of a worldwide Caliphate, they will give up all that 21st century, infidel technology and live as Muhammad did in the perfect harmony of the 7th century. ;)

    Islam’s fear of the West is completely irrational and merely an excuse to continue the Muslim habit of nihilistic indolence and do nothing while blaming all their problems on the West and the Zionist entity. The claim that Westerners steal Muslim resources is so much nonsense. Those who have oil, sell it for a pretty price so that they can feed their people. Those who do not get plenty of aid from the West.

    I do not believe that the issue is just West vs. Islam. It is the whole of the educated world that has again developed a great fear of Islam. Why? Because of how Muslims behave, what they say and what they do and don’t do. That behavior is broadcast worldwide within minutes for everyone to note.

    Many in the West and other people all over the world have read, not only the Qur’an, but also other Islamic scripture and Islamic history. With this knowledge comes the fear and disdain, because Muslims are very overt about telling anyone and everyone that Islam is superior to all man-made systems and thus, must and will rule the world. they dream of their 7th century Caliphate; they dream of a mythical perfect Islamic time that never was. That is their goal as written in the Qur’an. Muslims who do not subscribe to that goal are considered heretics and are often targeted by their very brothers in Islam. Not a day goes by without a terror attack or multiples somewhere in the Muslim world and often in the nonMuslim world. In general, Muslims say and do nothing about those, but for cartoons and imagined insults to Islam they hold bloody riots.

    Most people on the planet want democracy and not a misanthropic, misogynistic 7th century, theocratic system to govern them. The more people learn about Islam, the more they watch what Muslims do in the name of religion—specifically how they mistreat even their own people, especially their women and other Muslims they deem to be not proper Muslims, as well as infidels in their midsts — the more Islam will be rejected in the free world by thinking people.

    I believe that with the Arab Spring, that has now turned into a bitter winter and will most likely lead to civil war in many countries, the West will sit back and watch while doing little to nothing. The Muslims have for years shouted that they want to be left alone to solve their own problems. This time, they may get their wish, no matter how loud they scream for assistance from the UN, the international community or NATO.

  6. Wow, where did that come from? Did you even read my post? Try it again will you?

    As a Muslim, I beileve that there is no God but Allah SWT, just like the Christian first commandment says. Got a problem with that? I believe that Muhammad PBUH was a prophet, and as far as all the bad things said about him, lots of people to not believe the bad things. And, if you are going to hate Muhammad PBUH then please give some thought to the idea that King David was a Murderer, King Solomon was idolater, and Mosses struck the rock twice. Hmmm, it seems like the world if full of imperfect people isn’t it.

    I am also a Muslim who feels like the question of Jesus Christ is not yet answered fully, but I refuse to hate or condemn others one way or the other.

    Are you upset that some Middle Easterners do not like the West for our meddling in the politics there? Hmmm lets see, the US put in the Shah of Iran, who the people got rid of, then we put in Saddam, and then we had to get rid of him because he would not agree to certain oil contracts, then we kept a brutal dictator in power in Egypt for years, and it just goes on and on doesn’t it? Oh the litany of bungled diplomacy in the middle east just goes on and on.

  7. Gwendolyn, nobody ”says bad things” about your prophet, that’s all in your Quran and the flankers. His biography and the hadith. They tell us what a barbaric primitive warlord Mohammed was.
    His history is one of raids on unsuspecting villages, murder, assassinations, rape and enslavement. As told by Muslim literature
    If you want to worship such a man, if that’s your level of humanity, fine, but don’t blame rational moral people for rejecting such barbarity.

  8. I can only speak for myself and the regulars know my story…I live in Ohio and as I have said a million times I have not seen much islamophobia where I live which is in central Ohio. Gwendolyn, I am assuming you must have been in Columbus because I THINK that is where the headquarters is for CAIR for Ohio. Your story would sort of back up mine saying that the Muslims are integrated…for the most part I don’t see a lot of conflict here. HOWEVER, try as I might I have had not had many pleasant interactions with muslims. I am not saying that I have had none or that the experiences were negative. Just that Muslims don’t seem to interact much with those nonmuslims around them even when nonmuslims are trying to interact with them. Having said that, about a week ago in line at the grocery a Muslim lady was in front of me who was a major extrovert. The item she was buying was not labeled with a price and the girl ringing her up did not know what it was to put into the register. The Muslim didn’t know the English name so I said “Let me see.” I told her “that cracked wheat bulgar”. She questioned prices but in a sweet way and I was charmed by her.

    I think one of the biggest fears or issues nonmuslims have with muslims is that in many ways they are demanding about their faith. It requires such a different culture than what the west is used to that it is very unsettling when these things need to be accommodated in the name of faith. In Canada girls sitting behind boys praying in a public school that is paid for by tax dollars. In the USA a lot of hate material imported from Saudi arabia for use in Mosques. But by far is the idea that Muslims want to live by Sharia. To a nonmuslim mind Sharia is terrible. Or at least anywhere it is applied it has terrible results for the people particularly women. It is also a form of governance that favors Muslims hands down. Not to mention people coming here from Muslim majority countries want to bring the motherland with them and what nonmuslims hear is that they want to apply it in their newly adopted countries. I think they think that all they need to do is apply sharia and they will live in utopia here in the West. What they fail to grasp is that these societies function well because they are SECULAR. Rights for all are EQUALLY protected. No one faith is legally higher than another(I get that in practice people don’t always behave that way). Sharia changes all that. And IMO that is what nonmuslims are afraid of.

    Every group that came here faced some sort of discrimination…period. Jews, Italians, Irish, to name a few. None of these groups wanted to change the law via religion. They all learned how to live within the laws…funny clothes, weird accents, strange names, foreign languages…all managed to figure it out. Muslims, by virtue of their faith, want a separate set of laws for themselves. Claiming it is for religion makes it tough to fight against. And westerners like anyone else like their cultures just as they are. They don’t want them changed or looking like a watered down version of Baghdad. I used to think that was absolutely terrible until I started blogging and understood that Muslims want the same thing. They want their countries to stay islamic. And it dawned on me one day…what the hell is wrong with loving your culture and not wanting it to change to accommodate those who do not share your enthusiasm for it and are here not because they want to be, but often because they have been forced out or are seeking a better life? That in many ways what nonmuslim westerners are worried about IMHO.

    And as per this study they might not be wrong to worry: This article is from last month:

    http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/01/strong-support-for-shariah-in-canada

  9. @ Gwendolyn

    Nobody in the world gives a rat’s @$$ whether you believe that the moon is made of green cheese or lawn fairies or Muhammad.

    The problem starts when your religion demands that it be forced upon all of humanity. Muslims come from their lands and demand that we all live by sharia. They demand special privileges like Halal food and veiled women and taxi drivers not taking dogs or alcohol or foot baths or separate facilities for women—on and on it goes. That is where most of us draw the line. You want sharia, then STAY on your side of the fence!

    The Qur’an is filled with the bad things that Muhammad did like make offensive war, murder people, take slaves, rape women, marry a child and so on. Muslims are proud of those things. The rest of us think that they are immoral.

    Nobody worships King David or Solomon and whether Moses was a prophet is open to question for lots of people who do not believe in Judaism, Christianity or prophets. Many historians question whether Jesus even existed or whether he was a composite person. The same holds true for Muhammad among real scholars. Although, the deeds of Muslims, the wars of expansion for hundreds of years, those are well documented historically. You should read the bloody history of Islam. Did you know that 3 of the 4 Rightly Guided Caliphs were murdered by—Muslim brothers? You really should bone up on your own bloody history. It’s better than a horror movie.

    You are correct about the meddling in ME politics. Saddam should have been left in place. Now there are a thousand little Saddams waiting their turn at tyrannizing their own people.

    Are you upset that the Ottoman Turks ruled the ME for over 800 years? How about the fact that the Egyptians occupied Gaza or that the Syrians occupied Lebanon for over 30 years? It must be OK for Muslims to meddle in the lives of other Muslims.

    Does the imperialism and meddling of Islam bother you? After all, they once ruled half the world that they had conquered by the sword. Slaughtered 80 million east Indians during their tenure.

    So, now there will be civil war in the ME and N. Africa and the West or the rest of the world will not meddle. They will watch and wring their hands as Muslims once again, slaughter each other as they have since the days of Muhammad.

    Peace and tolerance. Right!

  10. North Carolina is located in the Bible belt and as a result one does hear a lot of bias. There are a number who are convinced that “those Muslims are out to take over the world.” As a result, I think it is important to bring Muslims and non-Muslims together to chop away at the fears and misperceptions.

    From the Muslim world I think the general rhetoric is that the West try to impose its views and beliefs upon the Muslim world. Or that the West try to butt in on issues that are not seen as things the West has a right to intervene.

    Was this post conceived from the comments on another post? Aw Jay, you are just too smart! (smile)

  11. North Carolina may be in the Bible Belt, but that makes people who are religious very aware. Many study Islam, the Qur’an and other Islamic text in their Bible study classes. In fact, it is the religious of the U. S. who know the most about Islam. This is one reason so many on the left dismiss their concerns.

    I remember a number of years ago when a freshman class at UNC (university of N. Carolina) was assigned to read the Qur’an as part of their incoming reading pile. The problem was that it was an abridged version. Only the relatively peaceful, gleaned from the Bible, Meccan verses were to be read. The war like, hate the infidel and the Jews, take over the world Medinan passages were nowhere to be seen. Abrogation also fell through the cracks.

    Needless to say, the parents raised a very big stink.

    The thing is Carol that the Muslim world has a choice. Why do they choose anything from the West? You know that the ME and especially Saudi is overflowing with Western products and ideas. They hire experts from the West. Their buildings, products and services are designed by Westerners. They send their kids to study in the West. They get medical treatment in the West. They go on vacation and shop in the West.

    They could choose not to be “polluted” by the “filth” (their words) of the West. Why not use only what Muslims produce? Then everyone would be safe from infidel decadence. It is hypocritical to use and practically worship everything Western while railing against it.

    When Muslim come to the West they use our freedoms against us. Muslims seem to believe that they are special and above other people and thus deserve special privileges that others do not enjoy. Several people including me have outlined some of those.

    There is already sharia in the UK. There are calls for it in not only Europe, but the U. S. and Canada. In the U. S. at last count, 22 states have laws pending against sharia. Why? Because it is considered seditious. Religion cannot rule above the Constitution. We cannot have a dual legal system, in particular one that discriminates against nonMuslims and women.

    Regarding interference: Saudi Arabia, more than any other Muslim nation, interferes plenty in the U. S. and around the world. They send their Islamic proselytizers with millions of dollars to spread Islam. it is estimated that 80% of Western mosques are controlled by Saudi Wahhabs. Yet, all other religions are not permitted in Saudi, certainly not openly. No houses of worship of other religions can be found. Proselytizing is against the law.

    If the laws in the West were the same as those in Saudi, only reversed, how would they like it?

  12. Gwendolyn:

    Do you think that muslims asking for sharia is causing other muslims problems in the west? Do you want sharia in the US? Do you think that men who are not abiding by their typical dress but require women to abide by it are hypocrits? As someone who worked for CAIR do you think that they also created an atmosphere within the US that one could see as aggravating the situation? Do you think that by some muslims failing to intergrate into the society it is causing the rest problems? Do you think that Saudi’s brand of Islam is creating more hostility between non-muslims and muslims?

    Just some questions I have. You don’t have to answer but I am curious. By the way I have a lot more.

  13. You are Muslim then; have read the Holy Qur’an and sat with scholars to debate its meaning?

    I am an American Muslim and have only experienced Islam in the Far East. They were very nice, but there were bandits who said they were Muslim in the south. It is inaccurate to make general statements about Muslims. I think those in the USA are mostly good citizens, but in so many places, people mix up tribalisim for Islam.

    I think the Gaia are the worst example of proper Islam, but then I do not know what they have to deal with.

    I just wish people would judge others on an individual basis is all.

  14. Gwendolyn:

    Are you addressing my comment or someone elses?

  15. I lived in Painesville, about 30 miles East of Cleveland and worked for CAIR Cleveland, as a volunteer. Yes, I did hear horror stories about how Muslims were treated, and they were awful. I did not experience rejection and hate though, and I suppose you would consider me a major extrovert also. I love people, and like to talk to them, Muslim or not. Some conservative Muslims would not like that, but I am sorry for them.

    I have flown all over the USA with Hijab and never had a problem. I did have a very officious man that I took for an Air Marshal sit with me once on a flight from Chicago to Seattle, and we talked a lot. I did my best to convince him I was not a terrorist, and he showed me his prejudice. Having once been an extremely conservative Christian, I knew the Christianese dialect, and could quote the Bible to him.

    I am now somewhere between Muslim and Christian, but refuse to fight with anyone about Jesus Christ. It is a personal decision and not to fight over. I know countries where to say that would get me killed, but hopefully not in America.

    It is my hope that by the time the Muslim children or their children grow up American Muslim extremism will disappear, what there is of it. As far as the rest of the world, who knows.

  16. I won’t talk with a nasty man such as you.

  17. Gwendolyn:

    Love the dialogue. Thanks, says a lot. Bye now.

  18. Gwendolyn:

    I guess in fairness I should ask why you think I am so nasty?

  19. The Imam at my Masjid once said that in his opinion, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the other documents of our government actually embodied the principles of sharia, so I obviously do not see a need for a separate Muslim government.

    I must be clear, I volunteered with CAIR.

    Any hole that Muslims are in here in the USA, they must participate in getting themselves out of. They need to begin to understand and appreciate that no one group can change the entire country. We must talk and negotiate and agree on things that we can each live with.

    In the USA, a woman can stand and talk with a man in a public place and not get pinched, prodded, or persued. In some countries, that would put the woman at great risk.

    The USA is the greatest country in the world in many ways and I think that eventually Muslims will completely adapt to America. As for those who want to take over, put all women in face veil, and take our driver’s licenses, they have a big surprise coming. LOL

    So, IF there is a problem for Muslims here, then Muslims need to extend themselves, take risks, and be part of the solution. As far as Muslims in the rest of the world, I know little.

  20. I do not know. Who ever was being mean and yelling at me, they can stop it.

  21. Ur velocomen.

  22. Gwendolyn:

    It is best to address the person with a name on your blog so people know who you are talking to. Were you born in the US? If not how long have you live here?

    You had mentioned the far east in an earlier blog.

  23. I am sorry. I have talked with non-muslims, athiests, agnostics, and christians for years on various forums and in public places. As long as we can be reasonably gentle with each other, I am up for it. I must say that I am not impressed with general statements about populations of people because none of us fit in a box.

    Some Christians believe in Transubstantiation but that does not mean that all do.

    I think that there are several thousand people on earth that say they are Muslim, but are a mere shadow of what they should be. It does not mean that all Muslims are like them.

    Some people can dig up endless dirt about Muhammad PBUH, but I can dig up endless dirt about Christians from the Bible. Both piles of dirt are worthless because they do not represent present day reality.

    We need to have this conversation, but not use generalities and use hate speech. Will that be suitable to you?

  24. @ American Bedu

    I have few questions for you on what you wrote?

    First you stated the following:

    “During the time I spent in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the East I did not feel any kind of imbalance.”

    This statement throws me off on the use of the term “imbalance.” Can you shed some light on that statement particular in how your are using that word?

    Speaking frankly there was a faster and greater acceptance of me by Eastern Muslims than necessarily by Western non-Muslims to my (late) Saudi husband.

    Was the acceptance of who you actually were or did you have to change who you were in some manner to be accepted? Did Eastern Muslim actually accept you as an independent, spirited, vivicious, intelligent and mobile woman or did you actually succumb to their standards?

  25. Bigstick:

    Yes, I was born in the US, have lived here all my life, except when I didn’t. I am a military veteran, so I have seen things; enough of them to know there must be a better way. LOL I was in Thailand for about a month on business.

  26. Gwendolyn:

    I generally start in generalizations and then narrow. Typically it gives me a better handle on the person I am engaging in conversation with. Then I start to narrow the field to more specifics. That is typically my MO on someone who I don’t have a basis of understanding. Believe me I will pick out specifics from your prior post and ask you something that has caught my attention. I will bring up topics that may in fact be deemed offensive such as what I have heard, your take on a particular issue, and items of that nature. If you feel that I am going to far all you have to do is say so. I have even been known to apologize now and then. However, I do tend to asked pointed questions and I like debating. You will find in prior post that debating for me is fun and I can push the envelope. So fair warning. It is all done for the purposes of getting to know a different persons perspective.

    Now you made a statement that you were between Christian and Muslim. Can you explain further? What type of Christian were you? What sect of Muslim do you follow here in the US? The statement that you made ” I know countries where to say that would get me killed, but hopefully not in America.” Why do you think hopefully not in America? Do you have concerns over this for yourself or others in America? Is there some type of pressure you either perceive or feel for you to say this?

  27. Gwendolyn:

    As a military veteran were you taught self-defense. Enough to fend off pokes and prods? Along with tacts of verbal commands or verbal judo?

  28. I was not religious until I was about 27. Then I became Christian and a very conservative one. For reasons I will not discuss, I left Christianity and became Muslim for about 6 years. With Islam I was very conservative at first, and later moderated my view and was happy.

    Right now, I am sort of drifting. I study a lot and still search for God, but the religious fervor, I do not do any more. I see no reason to kill or hate anyone that believes other than I do. This is abhorrent to God, or Allah SWT as some would choose.

    As you might suspect, I do not agree with the idea of forcing someone to be Muslim or Christian, though both religions have done so. During the inquisition, people were forced to profess belief in Jesus Christ or be burned at the stake. There are places in the Middle East where I would be killed.

    This is not to say that every Muslim would agree with the act, but there really seems to be no shortage of brutal hot heads is there?

    As far as Muslims fearing other Muslims in America, there is the case of the Pakistani man killing his daughter in Canada because she became too western, and the case of an Iraqi killing two of his daughters in Texas, I think. This does not mean that every Muslim would do this.

    As a woman, I do not consider myself a strong debater, but I will talk with others and share what I know, or think

  29. Big stick:

    As a woman, I was not taught to fight the men. I can shoot and they taught self defense, but with my size, fighting the man is not good. I said I was veteran to underscore that I am American and committed to this country. I just want fair treatment for all citizens..

  30. Qwendolyn:

    Couple more things. Do you feel pressure to stay a muslim out of fear of being hurt at this time?

    Then why do you sell you self short? “As a woman, I do not consider myself a strong debater,” women can be excellent debators. All it takes is practice and confidence.

  31. The men in Islam told me that I should not argue with men because women get too emotional, and for me that is most certainly true. There are a great many things about Islam that I will always believe I think even if I am not Muslim. It did many good things for me.

  32. Gwendolyn:

    Women are capable of carrying on a debate and not get too emotional, I assure you. I also assure you that you could be a great debator if you have confidence in yourself and practice. Who are the men in Islam? What good things did your faith do to you? How long are you going to avoid the question,

    Do you feel pressure to stay a muslim out of fear of being hurt at this time?

  33. Gwendolyn, said: You are Muslim then; have read the Holy Qur’an and sat with scholars to debate its meaning?

    I am an American Muslim and have only experienced Islam in the Far East. They were very nice, but there were bandits who said they were Muslim in the south. It is inaccurate to make general statements about Muslims. I think those in the USA are mostly good citizens, but in so many places, people mix up tribalisim for Islam.

    This is another one of those straw-man arguments. Most of the Muslims in the world are not Arabs, in fact only 18% of Muslims are. Most are not members of tribes.

    It is impossible to judge Muslims on an individual basis because, if they are good Muslims then they believe everything that is in the Qur’an, because it is claimed to be immutable. If that is the case then ALL Muslims follow the same tenets, many of which are not peaceful, tolerant or loving toward their fellow human beings. Islam is one ummah.

    I have read the Qur’an and other Islamic texts and have often debated, in person with Muslims, most of whom were men. First, they are surprised that I know what is in the texts. Second they typically claim that Islam is superior to all religions and sharia above all man-made laws. Third they say all women (Muslim or not) must be veiled, etc. Many refuse to be in the same room with women, especially Muslim women. Others refuse to look at women or shake hands with women. Most believe that suicide jihad is justified and that the Jews are the source of all the world’s problems. They believe that on the Last Day, before they can ascend to Paradise they must kill all the Jews. That all the rocks and trees will say: “Oh, Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him!”

    ” Yes, I did hear horror stories about how Muslims were treated, and they were awful.” I believe these stories were embellished and probably lies because Muslims like to play the victim card. They try the race card, but of course, Muslims are not a race.

    “Having once been an extremely conservative Christian, I knew the Christianese dialect, and could quote the Bible to him.”

    What on earth is a “Christianese dialect”? Huh? Christians, like Muslims come in all colours, ethnicities and speak many languages.

    “It is my hope that by the time the Muslim children or their children grow up American Muslim extremism will disappear, what there is of it. As far as the rest of the world, who knows.”

    I cannot happen, Gwendolyn unless—Islam has a Reformation. Because, all of that violence and extremism is in the Qur’an and has existed since the time of Muhammad. You need to read more on Islamic history.

    “The Imam at my Masjid once said that in his opinion, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the other documents of our government actually embodied the principles of sharia, so I obviously do not see a need for a separate Muslim government.”

    Apparently your Imam does not know sharia.

    The Constitution renders all men (and women) equal. That includes gay people. All are equal under the law. Sharia states that men are above women and Muslims are superior to all nonMuslims, that homosexuals and apostates must be killed. Women cannot inherit equally with men. Men can beat women. The testimony of women in court is half that of man. Women cannot have custody of their children. A man can divorce a woman by merely saying: ”Talaq, talaq, talaq.”

    I could post all the differences between the Constitution and all 4 schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Do you know what they are?

    It is my opinion that Muslims, especially “reverts” are weak people who have no personal moral compass and need rules for every waking and sleeping moment of their lives in order to stay on the straight and narrow.

    I also believe that many people, especially the women who convert to Islam are losers who could not make it in their own cultures. Islam is the fastest growing faith among prisoners in the West. It appeals to criminals because of the premise that everything belongs to allah and by extension to Muslims. Many Muslim extremist preachers teach their followers that it is right to plunder and rob the infidel world, just as Muhammad did. One can see such preachings all over the news and the net taken straight from the Qur’an.

    You have a lot to overcome, Gwendolyn if you wish for people to believe that your islamic religion is not a threat to civilization and peace in the world. Especially if you work for CAIR, a terror supporting organization whose founder stated that Islam should rule in the U. S.

  34. Prosciutto,

    What on earth is a “Christianese dialect”?

    It is certain venacular specific to Christians such break the bread, the good news, things of that nature. For people who are outside of Christianity it could lose its meaning or be nonsensical.

  35. Oh, forgot your question. No I do not fear being killed if I leave Islam. They might try it, but maybe they die instead? I notice that many terrorists are simply cowards, using bombs rather than face their enemy. I can not defend myself from bombs.

    Still, almost all Muslims would think that the killer was a coward, destined to the hell. Remember, most of the victims of the evil bombers are Muslim themselves. This is a shameful thing. How do these men think they will get the approval of Allah SWT.

    Still, when I was a conservative Christian, I believed so many hateful things about Muslims, blacks, gays, lesbians, Indians, mexicans and anyone who was different. It was when I left the church that I realised how brainwashed I was.

    Islam was the same at first, but as I studied, I realised that most Muslims do not think in extremes. They just want to worship Allah SWT, raise their families, do their jobs and have a good life.

    If anything, I want to be a bridge to understanding and love between the people. I know enough about Christianity to know how they should act. It is the same for Islam. If people can only love God (Allah SWT) and each other then the rest should fall into place. It is those who rant and rave about the unimportant things that cause the pain and suffering, and may God take them.

  36. Gwendolyn:

    Spunk, I like that. Why did you chose a conservative christian sect? Why not something more moderate?

  37. I worked for CAIR as a volunteer. I do not agree that the founder thinks that Islam should take over the world.

    You like the debate, and to create trouble. I like to converse and come to understanding and respect. We have nothing in common.

  38. Gwendolyn

    Who was your last post directed at, myself or Prosciutto?

  39. Though I did not understand it at the time, I now think that those who choose very restrictive belief systems often feel very out of control and want the rules to feel secure.

    As time passes, I see the fallacy of such a belief and the recovery and assumption of reasonable belief it is a road which I may be on until I die.

    I can still be very devout, but perhaps do not need to be led like an animal, incapable of thinking on my own.

  40. And I do agree that some Muslims play the victim card. This must stop and we must learn to get along on an adult level.

  41. Oops, maybe Proscuto. He is quite impressed with himself.

  42. Gwendolyn:

    Are you searching for something different here? Some further insight to your next step in how you go about your faith? You’ll excuse but you sound like a woman with many questions, many directions and many possiblities.

  43. gwendolyn..

    You sound like a nice person. I hope you stick around…I also wish you luck on your journey(you said you were halfway between Islam and Christianity)I am not sure if you have said the shahada yet. But I hope that you do not adopt the very severe wahabbi form of Islam…IMO they are ruining it for a lot of muslims around the world.

  44. I find the wars, fighting, lying, deception and ungodliness to be greatly distressing. None of this comes from God but from the Shaitun, the lower nature. I see the American people as good, and generous, but feeling entitled when the rest of the world suffers. I see the greed and unholiness of those in power throughout the world, and they feed upon the blood of the people, and their suffering.

    There are none holy, no not one (Romans 3:10) So, now here I am, trapped between those who hate each other. It feels awful.

    I know men who would not talk to me except to curse me without my Hijab. And I know men who would do the same if I wore it. I am helpless before the evil.

    All any of us can do is to try our best to do good when we get the chance. We can do nothing else.

  45. Prosciutto,

    “The Imam at my Masjid once said that in his opinion, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the other documents of our government actually embodied the principles of sharia, so I obviously do not see a need for a separate Muslim government.”

    I have heard this statement from other muslims. Granted it could be smoke and mirrors but if you put it out there long enough maybe enough people begin to believe it amongst the muslim population specifically those that advocate for a separate justice system for muslims.

    “It is my hope that by the time the Muslim children or their children grow up American Muslim extremism will disappear, what there is of it. As far as the rest of the world, who knows.”

    I cannot happen, Gwendolyn unless—Islam has a Reformation. Because, all of that violence and extremism is in the Qur’an and has existed since the time of Muhammad. You need to read more on Islamic history.”

    Prosciutto, sometimes change is slow and requires kit gloves. If you throw a brick a someone right out of the starting gate they are likely not going to stick around to hear anything else.

  46. Gwen…

    I agree that very restrictive Christianity is just as offensive as wahabbi islam. both teach fear and hate…so wrong. People of all faiths need to find a middle ground that makes room for all.

  47. Gwendolyn,

    Same questions again: “Are you searching for something different here? Some further insight to your next step in how you go about your faith?”

    Your stated:

    “now here I am, trapped between those who hate each other. It feels awful”

    Do you have a plan to untrap yourself? If your are feeling awful, is there some way you can change it? If so how?

  48. @Gwendolyn – ‘The men in Islam told me that I should not argue with men because women get too emotional, and for me that is most certainly true.’

    LOL!! That’s funny. My experience has been the opposite (ok, well, at least on-line here it seems the men are the ones that go all hissy fit when you don’t agree with them or call them out on their hypocrisy ;-))
    Also, why would you listen to the ‘men in Islam’? You were a grown intelligent woman. Why did you need the ‘men of Islam’ to tell you how to live?

    ‘Still, almost all Muslims would think that the killer was a coward, destined to the hell.’

    Hmmmm… I don’t know about that. There are too many cheers and congratualtions to the families of suicide bombers (at least those that manage to attack either of the 2 great Satans – US or Israel) for me to believe that.

  49. Gwendolyn,

    Just so you know Lynn could be your mentor on spunky.

  50. @Lynn

    Uh don’t you label yourself as a bitch? That’s the very definition of overly emotional, way to play into misogynistic attitudes.

    “Hmmmm… I don’t know about that.”

    You’re right, you don’t know about that. Who the fuck cheers about death? A couple of youtube videos of some wackos cheering doesn’t mean its true for the rest.

  51. Mashallah, I said my Shahadda in 2006. The Shafi make it hard for all Muslims, bringing hate where there should be love, anger where there should be peace.

    So, I can not say that I am no longer Muslim, but I think that Isa PBUH has a larger role than most Muslims think. And, I have met other Muslims who believe this also. We all know that it is Isa PBUH who returns to do the will of Allah SWT, make the world whole, reward those who love God and punish those who do evil.

    I have Mormon friends who sit and talk with me about this. They do not say I must stop being Muslim, and if they did, I do not know if I could. Still, I can not come against the truths that they show me and we agree on.

    One thing is sure. I love God. I love Allah SWT. To live or to die, I love God. All this dogma and hate does nothing good in the world, of this I am sure.

  52. LOL Big stick. Spunky, that’s funny. Sounds so much more pleasant than the ‘cheeky’, ‘pit bull’ or ‘bitch’. Maybe I’ll keep that one. lol

  53. Some of us think that Islam is having a reformation as we speak. I hope so. There will be blood and there will be death, but inshallah, we will be better for it.

  54. Amen.

  55. @JC -‘That’s the very definition of overly emotional, way to play into misogynistic attitudes’

    I think you have a different definition of ‘bitch’ than I do.

  56. @Lynn

    By the way thanks for the comment on the poem. Apparently it wasn’t too bad even MoQ sort of gave me thumbs up. Who knows maybe I will quit my day job and write poems. Too bad it does pay worth a flip. If I do that, I really need to be adopted though. Apparently, they were inundated with offers. Figures, everybody jumping on that offer.

  57. Gwendolyn, said: “I worked for CAIR as a volunteer. I do not agree that the founder thinks that Islam should take over the world.”

    Evidently you have never read this statement made by Omar M. Ahmad, chairman of the board of the Council on American-Islamic relations:

    “If you choose to live here (in America) . . . you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam,” he said. … Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant, The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth,”

    That is what the Qur’an says, that Islam must rule. Every Muslim is obligated to follow the mandate.

    “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.” Qur’an:2:193

    “How do these men think they will get the approval of Allah SWT.”

    Because the Qur’an and sharia law sanction such violence. They reason that Muhammad did it so they must also.

    “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause.” Qur’an 61:4

    You like the debate, and to create trouble. I like to converse and come to understanding and respect. We have nothing in common.

    I like to live and let live. I do not care much for people who want to force their bigoted faith upon others.

    I have yet to meet a Muslim who shows nonMuslims respect. In the end, they always claim that Islam is tops and everyone is a sinner, infidel, kuffur and if they do not accept Islam they are doomed to go to Hell. Same as Christian fundamentalists.

    Gwendolyn, said:Oops, maybe Proscuto. He is quite impressed with himself.

    I am a woman, like you Gwendolyn. What facts that I have posted do you find incorrect?

    It seems to me that you are lost and grasping at Islam for a lifeline.

    “I can still be very devout, but perhaps do not need to be led like an animal, incapable of thinking on my own.”

    Islam allows no leeway. Muslims, and especially women, are very restricted.

    “I know men who would not talk to me except to curse me without my Hijab. And I know men who would do the same if I wore it. I am helpless before the evil.
All any of us can do is to try our best to do good when we get the chance. We can do nothing else.“

    This sort of passivity and weakness from women and men is what totalitarian religions depend on for control.

    Unlike you, I am not helpless before evil! I will fight it no matter where or when.

    It appears to me that you know very little about Islam, Gwendolyn.

    bigstick, said: “Prosciutto, sometimes change is slow and requires kit gloves. If you throw a brick a someone right out of the starting gate they are likely not going to stick around to hear anything else.”

    Kid gloves? You mean Politically Correct talk don’t you? Many a Muslim the world over has shouted: “Say Islam is peace or we will kill you.”

    Islam has been around for 1400 years. It is worse today than a thousand years ago. How many more years are people supposed to wait for change? How many more countless victims must there be of this totalitarian ideology whose goal, in the Qur’an is to rule the world with 7th century backwardness?

    You have to wonder why, Muslims will not look at the facts of Islam its history and really study the so-called holy books. If they do, they should be horrified. There is no holy book of any other religion that mandates rule of the world and all peoples. Islam is the only religion that commands its followers to fight to spread Islam.

    I find it strange that lost souls like Gwendolyn, who claim to be sort-of Muslims, do not know that.

  58. Big Stick:

    I do not know the answer to what is next. how to be untrapped. This is where the faith in God comes in.

  59. @Gwendolyn -‘There will be blood and there will be death, but inshallah, we will be better for it’

    That is MY motto (minus the inshallah of course ;-)) and probably on a smaller scale than you mean.

  60. Gwendolyn:

    Don’t take this the wrong way. He has gave you faith to believe in yourself, a mind to know yourself and the tools to make the change.

  61. @Big stick – ‘Apparently, they were inundated with offers.’

    Dang it!! But I promise you that you can still get Christmas AND presents without having to be adopted. Just keep it up with the poetry and perhaps try some watercolor painting or something to go with the poems? ;-)

  62. “Kid gloves? You mean Politically Correct talk don’t you? Many a Muslim the world over has shouted: “Say Islam is peace or we will kill you.” ”

    Oh fuck off man. That is such a load of bullshit. I’m not the world’s biggest fan of Islam, I just find it hilarious how you all talk about Muslims when you barely know any.

  63. Lynn:

    I actually think that the danger of being killed by other Muslims is minimal.

    I do get emotional and distraught if I fight too much, so I try to make boundaries so hopefully the men will behave if they wish to talk to me.

    I can only speak for American culture. The middle east is another matter. I was riding in a bus in Jerusalem, and boys started throwing rocks at it. I have not seen this in America. In America, there are not soldiers on every block with AK-47 guns. In Honduras, Kenya, Israel, Thailand, I saw this a great deal. I think they all have PTSD.

  64. Every has their own belief. Varying degrees of faith or no faith. So Gwendoline Imo you can swap and change a.d find your peace. Jam not v religious. But by no means am I an atheist. Not really agnosti. Either. The first thing I do in the morning.g is light a lamp and ask God for a good safe day.
    as for assimilation my kids are well assiimilated and half Muslim? ?by birth. Granted they don’t follow Islam but if they convert later they are suddenly not going to demand.d sharia.

  65. @ Lynn

    I working it believe me but what can you do when teenagers are sending videos in to be adopted. They are even promising to be a difficult challenge. What the heck. Who can resist trying to change a challenging teenager. If you can get them you can get anyone. Then top it off they try to be cute.

  66. Proscuitto:

    Wow, you are piece of work. You do not know the meaning of conversation do you? I’ll just make sure that I stay clear of you in the future. It already sounds like most people know not to take you too seriously.

  67. Inshallah means simply God willing in Arabic. Having been American amongst the conservative Christians, I heard “God willing” until my ears fell off. LOL Lot of good it did them.

  68. @ JC

    Kid gloves on this forum is not telling them that they are involved in the next terrorist plot or overthrowing the government. Heck as soon a new person come in it is like a hornets nest. By the way I was referring to the person not the whole of Islam.

    Sometimes you take your ques from MoQ leaning toward dickdom.

  69. @pros uito-” there are plenty of
    Muslims who show non-muslims respect. You should stop by our place for dinner or lunch one of these days and I will show you one such man. :-)

  70. Why would I take such encouragement the wrong way? The biggest obstacle for me right now is that I feel that almost no one is doing it right, so there must be another way.

  71. JC, on December 10, 2011 at 9:09 am said:

    “Kid gloves? You mean Politically Correct talk don’t you? Many a Muslim the world over has shouted: “Say Islam is peace or we will kill you.” ”

    Oh fuck off man. That is such a load of bullshit. I’m not the world’s biggest fan of Islam, I just find it hilarious how you all talk about Muslims when you barely know any. “

    LOL, did your dinner not agree with you, kiddo?

    First, I am NOT a MAN! Second, I know scores of Muslims right now and have known hundreds throughout my life in many regions of the word. Third, I have studied Islam for decades and found it wanting more than other religions.

    I do not believe in Politically Correct talk for any other religion either. Most religions, especially the Abrahamic religions, suck but Islam tops them all.

  72. Radhaa:

    May your way be peaceful, and may your children grow up to be good citizens and great leaders.

  73. @JC – ‘You’re right, you don’t know about that. Who the fuck cheers about death? A couple of youtube videos of some wackos cheering doesn’t mean its true for the rest’

    Are you freaking KIDDING me? Our friend Coolred was living in Bahrain and she was right there when the Bahrainis around her cheered on 9/11 even though they knew she was American. We saw the streets of Palestine cheering and sickening as it is there were even cheers on the streets of Dearborn Michigan (aka Little Arabia) . So THAT is who cheers about death!

  74. Tue Ast did not fear Muslims prior to 9/11. I any of the other countless attacks carried out by in the name of Islam. Then people began to wonder about it. Thier are numerous deasons why non Muslims fear Muslims in general. When people are killed by fanatics of any religion that causes fear and scrutiny of that religion. The fact that many luslims come to the West and want a strict islmic liveatyle that doesn’tgive ALL humans the same rights is disturbing. When Yup hear stories of Muslims continuingto ry and commit terrorism or trying to deny rights to other or wanting soecial over the top consessions that bothers peoples. The West has moved away from inequality between the sexes but key tenets of Islam would take those Way. I have no problems with Muslims in general however I do not like abuses of human rights nor fanatics. Nor do I tolerate killing in the name of any religion.

  75. radhaa, said:

    @pros uito-” there are plenty of Muslims who show non-muslims respect. You should stop by our place for dinner or lunch one of these days and I will show you one such man. “

    I drink wine with dinner and I eat pork products as well. ;) What’s on the menu?

    I would be willing to bet that if we have a discussion, we pull out the Qur’an and point out at least some of the troublesome passages, and then go the the ahadith and the sunnah this person would soon show his true colours or he would practice taqiyye. There is no way that any Muslim can be a true Muslim and not practice Islam as Muhammad did. That is what the clerics, scholars, politicians and ordinary people claim.

    There is only one Islam and all must march in line or be considered heretics or apostates.

    I truly wish it were different. Because if it were different, hundreds of millions of Muslims would be protesting and actually fighting against terrorism.

  76. @onigirifb- ‘Thier are numerous deasons why non Muslims fear Muslims ‘

    I honestly have NEVER heard a single non-Muslim say that they ‘fear’ Muslims. Distrust them perhaps but never ‘fear’.

  77. Sigh…stupid phone….still new and the autofill hasn’t picked up enough yet. Sorry for all the typos. :) you are all smart enough to figure it out I am sure.

  78. @Prosciutto

    I sure as hell don’t care for political correctness. Pray tell, out of all the hundreds of Muslims you have known, they honestly told you “peace or death?”. It’s awesome you’ve studied the Islamic religion for decades, good on you! I hope you got something out of it though, because that’s just a load of shit to parse through. Are you a scholar by any chance?

    Fucking hell, I mean I grew up in that environment, how the hell didn’t I hear of calls or death or peace, or any of that crap you’re saying? It’s in that bullshit text they call a Qur’an (which I’m sure you’ve studied word for word, since you’ve spent decades), inspired by the shitty religions that preceded it.

    But honestly, all these buzz words are hilarious. Shariah law, muslims taking over. Good lord, they can’t even manage their own fucking countries, how do you figure they’re going to take over the ones they immigrate to?

    And don’t get your panties in a bunch, I call everyone man or dude in IRL.

  79. Lynn:

    This cheering at the misfortune of others is what began to break me down in Islam. It was easy to be mad at the government when they did lecherous things in getting oil contracts from Arab states. For many years I have felt that American business men abroad should be held accountable to American laws regarding their conduct.

    Another part of the problem is that graft is rampant in the Arab states, and I think it is worst in Saudi Arabia, or at least that is what I read. So, even if we regulated the conduct of Americans abroad, there would still be the evil despots there. Who will regulate them?

    Who regulated Saddam Hussain? Who stopped Mubarak? Who finally got Qadaffi? Who will topple the Saud tribe? Who will stop the leader of Syria from murdering his own people?

    After a while I became disillusioned with a religion that could not control its own people. So, caught between Christianity and Islam was I.

    I have been doing a lot of thinking and talking to Mormons. What they say makes a lot of sense.

  80. @Bigstick – ‘Sometimes you take your ques from MoQ leaning toward dickdom’

    LOL – True, but don’t mind him, he’s probably just had a few too many shots of bourbon about now. ;-)

  81. @Lynn

    I sure as fuck can’t speak for coolred’s experiences, but there was no one cheering when 9/11 happened within my own social group of families and friends. My family is as conservative as they fucking come, to the point where I would classify them as fucked in the head, and they never said or celebrated any of that crap.

    I am definitely not a fan of the religion due to personal experiences as well as the illogical nature of it all, nor am I a fan of any religion or when any person puts some sorta higher being above themselves. But when people start spouting crap about being afraid of Muslims under the guise of not being politically correct to hide their own biases, that’s bullshit.

  82. Lynn, said:

    “I honestly have NEVER heard a single non-Muslim say that they ‘fear’ Muslims. Distrust them perhaps but never ‘fear’. “

    That is my experience as well, Lynn. Many people think they are stupid, crazy, unbalanced, brainwashed, do not tell the truth, etc. and as a result do not trust them. But, fear is not something that comes up. Lots of people laugh at the terrorists, especially the leaders—the “big” men who are not manly enough to show their faces or who send young people to do the dirty deeds instead of going themselves.

    The funniest thing is when the Darwin principle kicks in and some guy gets kicked out of the gene pool when the bomb goes off early. ;)

    The fantasy that these guys can rule the world is the funniest thing of all.

    Nope, fear does not come into it.

  83. @Lynn

    You’re absolutely right. Last day of the term, I kicked ass, I think I deserve a drink or four, especially with my good pal Beam.

  84. @JC – Right, you can only speak for what you saw so why would you act as if people were making stuff up about it happening? It DID happen even if you were somehow shielded from it.

    ‘But when people start spouting crap about being afraid of Muslims under the guise of not being politically correct to hide their own biases, that’s bullshit.’

    huh?

  85. @JC – ‘You’re absolutely right.’

    Yes, I usually AM. ;-)

  86. JC

    Dude:

    Take it easy on the liquor. You are already in such a damn fine mood.

    Talk later.

  87. Hey, JC, why don’t you tell us about your experiences with ‘Westernophobia’ in the Middle East.

  88. @Bigstick

    Hey. I’m all about turning the other cheek, and I sure as hell don’t mean to profane or insulting, but it’s just fucking hilarious how people spout off this bullshit constantly when it wasn’t my own experience. This is the sort of crap that leads to encompassing a group as a certain way.

    What I truly find fucking hilarious on this blog specifically. Is how Muslims on here try to justify their faith, and the Non-Muslims try to persuade them into believing that their religion is in fact violent and disturbing, which it fucking is, for sure. But fucking hell man, if they interpret shit a certain way, let them have it, who fucking cares? To insinuate that they’re all bloodthirsty people looking to get one over the west is in fact bullshit, at least here in the States. I can’t speak about the batshit crazies that Europe gets, just speaking of my own experience, and I never came across any of that shit, be it in Saudi or America, even Canada when I visit.

  89. @Lynn

    Brilliant. Hey if crap like that makes you feel witty, have at it!

  90. Gwendolyn, “I have been doing a lot of thinking and talking to Mormons. What they say makes a lot of sense.”

    Like I said, Gwendolyn, you are lost and looking for an anchor. What happened to you that you are so devoid of self esteem and confidence in your own moral code?

    Why does Mormonism make sense? They are just as far out as the Muslims or the Christian fundamentalists.

    _________________

    @ JC, I do not deal well with foul-mouthed teenagers. Take a pill, kid!

    Why is it that so many Muslim males (or former Muslim males) have such filthy mouths?

    And just for the record, I too saw Muslims celebrating both in the U. S. and in Europe at 9/11.

  91. @Lynn

    Well since you’ve asked. Truth be told, the world doesn’t revolve around the western world. They hate Bush over there when it came to the Iraq war, and they put the blame on him.The more conservatively inclined think the society is immoral, which is bullshit, but hey they’ll never bother moving there.

    If you could be a tad more specific with your question in regards to the attitudes towards westerners, it would be awesome, because I guess I’m supposed to acknowledge that Westernphobia exists, but saying Islamphobia is out there is just being politically correct. Ah good stuff.

  92. OK, since this is a blog about Saudi, here is the problem:

    King Abdullah tells preachers to reach out to other communities

    MAKKAH: Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah urged Islamic scholars and preachers on Monday to reach out to non-Muslim communities and said the message of Islam came addressing the whole humanity, not a particular community.

    “We have to open up to other communities because the message of Islam does not address a particular community excluding others. In fact, it is a message for the whole humanity,”…

    …“The message of Islam explains how man and woman on this earth should live, with all its details.”…

    …“We have to carry on dawa work with the intent of spreading our religion among other nations in the right form, highlighting its moderate teachings,” he said…

    “Islamic preaching is a duty imposed on Muslims by the Shariah,” said Al-Turki.

    http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article527065.ece?comments=all#comments

    Saudi is spending untold millions to make dawa, proselytize throughout the world. Unfortunately, proselytizing by any other religion in Saudi could get one executed.

    There have been numerous such articles about Muslims’ duty to spread Islam in the Saudi papers. One called on Muslims to use modern, infidel technology to do so. In fact, now there is a YouTube channel for Islam.

    Virtually all the comments on this article are in agreement and many claim that Islam is Peace!

  93. @Prosciutto,

    Where are they? Commenting on a shitty excuse of on online newspaper? I used to get it in print when I was working in Saudi, their write-ups are horrible, and this coming from someone with shit grammar.

    I wish you would change your name. I don’t want to get pissy every time I have prosciutto and melon.

  94. JC, said:
    @Prosciutto,

    Where are they? Commenting on a shitty excuse of on online newspaper? I used to get it in print when I was working in Saudi, their write-ups are horrible, and this coming from someone with shit grammar.

    The article was a about a royal proclamation. There is money behind them thar words. Have you ever read any of the Saudi literature in mosques or any of their school books? Pretty bigoted stuff, just like the Qur’an.

    Regardless, virtually all the Gulf papers print the same things: Muslims are the best; Islam should rule the world; Muslims invented everything; The infidels have stolen all the resources of Muslims; all people are Muslims when born; everything would be perfect if only people would follow true Islam; women should be protected; men can’t control themselves; everything is the fault of the West, the Zionist entity, America; Muslims are blameless, innocent pawns of the evil infidels, blah, blah, blah.

    I wish you would change your name. I don’t want to get pissy every time I have prosciutto and melon.

    You appear to be pissy, no matter what. Do not let my nick change a thing. ;)

    Try to expand your vocabulary, kiddo, because too many four letter words make you look quite limited.

  95. @JC – ‘I guess I’m supposed to acknowledge that Westernphobia exists, but saying Islamphobia is out there is just being politically correct.’

    ABsolutely NOT. If you don’t believe it exists then you say that. I personally don’t believe either of those words have a place or make any sense.

  96. Lynn:

    I met a Saudi teen on Arab News, commenting on a news article, and we continued talking for several years. He wanted to come to America to attend college, but did not have the high grades and family connections.

    In an effort to help him make money to come, I suggested that he go to work for the Americans as an interpreter. Wow, he was so mad at me, I am glad that I did not understand all of what he said on SKYPE.

    It was then that I began to become educated about how disenchanted Middle Easterners were with George Bush. Of course, I wonder if any of them took any responsibility for the 9/11 attack? It is not well known that 10% of those who died in that attack were Muslims.

    I’ve a long way to go to understand the Middle East. I wish it were not so.

    This conversation tonight pressed me to decide about being Muslim. I will never forget what I have learned, and I learned many good things. Islam did not damage me, but made me better. I hope that Muslims will always call me friend.

    Still, I think it is time to leave. I hope that I can be that bridge that will help to heal the rift. Muslims have a big responsibility in America. No more whining that they are victims. They must prove themselves to be the kind of people they say they are, and most work very hard at that.

    I will return to Christianity and be a Mormon.

  97. @Lynn: Last spring while I was still in Ohio, the Tea Party got an Egyptian Coptic Christian to do a speaking circuit up through the Midwest.

    Well, I can understand that the Copts probably don’t have much nice to say about Muslims because they get treated badly by the other Egyptians.

    However, he said that he was an expert on the Qur’an and that all Muslims were devils and a whole bunch of stuff like that. We however did survive.

  98. @Gwendolyn – ‘No more whining that they are victims. They must prove themselves to be the kind of people they say they are, and most work very hard at that’

    I agree, not necessarily with the part where they work hard at it though.

  99. ‘However, he said that he was an expert on the Qur’an and that all Muslims were devils and a whole bunch of stuff like that. We however did survive.’

    You survived? Was that ever in question? You were in Ohio for God’s sake! LOL

  100. Why the heck is the ‘Tea Party’ bringing in Anti-Muslim speakers? What the heck do Muslims have to do with the ‘Tea Party’ and it’s causes?

  101. Oops, I forgot. It must be because President Obama is Muslim. ;-)

  102. Gwendolyn said: “I will return to Christianity and be a Mormon. “

    All this back and forth is enough to give one whiplash.

    I hear that Zoroastrianism is making a comeback. It was one of the first monotheistic religions. Not to forget that Strauss wrote a great piece of music about him, then there was Mahler’s Third Symphony and Nietzsche’s philosophical novel. I recommend Braschi’s “United States of Banana.” That will help you understand the evils of capitalism.

    Choose one name because now we have to take you out of moderation all the time
    Moderator

  103. “The article was a about a royal proclamation. There is money behind them thar words. Have you ever read any of the Saudi literature in mosques or any of their school books? Pretty bigoted stuff, just like the Qur’an.”

    I definitely have, and like I said it’s a bunch of bullshit. I just really want to know where are these mosques that you come across that preach that stuff, and pass that literature.

    I mean if that’s the case, we can definitely do something about it.

  104. “Regardless, virtually all the Gulf papers print the same things: Muslims are the best; Islam should rule the world; Muslims invented everything; The infidels have stolen all the resources of Muslims; all people are Muslims when born; everything would be perfect if only people would follow true Islam; women should be protected; men can’t control themselves; everything is the fault of the West, the Zionist entity, America; Muslims are blameless, innocent pawns of the evil infidels, blah, blah, blah. ”

    Well there you said it, gulf papers print out that crap, eh? Don’t they serve as a vehicle to whatever propaganda agenda they’re serving?

  105. I hate spamming this blog. But I’m English vocabulary is obviously limited, how is your Arabic?

  106. Gwen,

    Quote: As Muslim, I beileve that there is no God but Allah SWT, just like the Christian first commandment says. Got a problem with that? I believe that Muhammad PBUH was a prophet, and as far as all the bad things said about him, lots of people to not believe the bad things. And, if you are going to hate Muhammad PBUH then please give some thought to the idea that King David was a Murderer, King Solomon was idolater, and Mosses struck the rock twice. Hmmm, it seems like the world if full of imperfect people isn’t it.

    Fine, but even if you don’t believe “the bad things” about your prophet, it doesn’t mean they aren’t true. In fact, there are hundreds of stories about evil things done by Mohammad in the most reliable hadith and early histories, and this means nothing to Muslims. Also, in case you haven’t read the Quran, your Allah thinks we are “lower than animals” and his favorite pastime is personally inflicting barbaric tortures on unbelievers, not even sinners.

    As to David, Moses and their sins, they are condemned in the Bible and punished. So what about Mohammad and his sins? Nothing, nada. nyient, zipp! Much to the contrary, Mo is blessed and referred to as an “example” for Muslims. Well, his victims were infidels so murder, plunder, enslavement, torture, rape and abuse are not really wrong, right?

    Gwen, You are a prime example of why there is no hope for peace and harmony between Muslims and non-Muslims. You think that if non-Muslims silently accept Islam and its actions, and Muslims do what they want, and never voice any criticism, then all will be well. To Muslims, It is always the non-Muslims that need to change. Well, again, Muslims are, after all, the “best of peoples” (according to the Quran).

    Everywhere Islam dominates, it suppresses freedoms and institutes intolerance. Personally I don’t believe the Muslims in the West, or those like you, Gwen, are any different from those in Islamic societies. If you could, if Muslims were a majority, you would accept this intolerance and lack of freedoms because you and all Muslims cannot be honest about Islamic dogma. Well, if you were honest about it, you probably wouldn’t be a Muslim.

    When Muslims change, then we can have talk. Let them end the hate speech in the mosques and stop cursing infidels and blaming us for their problems. Let them end the apostasy laws and repeal the blasphemy codes. When Muslim societies change their ways, then we can talk.

    But in fact, Islamic societies are becoming more radical and intolerant….. We are all doomed.

  107. @Jay

    I think you missed this part before your whole spiel, on how Muslims specifically will be okay with intolerance. Weren’t Mormons the major backers behind defeating prop 8 in California?

    “Still, I think it is time to leave. I hope that I can be that bridge that will help to heal the rift. Muslims have a big responsibility in America. No more whining that they are victims. They must prove themselves to be the kind of people they say they are, and most work very hard at that.

    I will return to Christianity and be a Mormon.”

    Crazies are crazies. Whether it’s exchanging a pedophile for a prophet for a swindler, but hey at least they get some magic underwear!

  108. Gwendolyn, Mormons aren’t really christians, I really think you should read up on a religion before you decide to join.

    Have you thought about looking into Wicca? Much nicer religion than the ones you’ve tried so far, lot’s of fun with candles and chalices and incense, and god is worshiped as the Goddess. Much nicer for women. And they will never tell you to think:”As a woman, I do not consider myself a strong debater

    I don’t understand why women who feel the need to believe in magic and invisible friends seek out these vile misogynistic Abrahamic religion, Or Mormonism, which is so clearly scam that I cannot see how anybody can fall for it. There are actually newspaper clippings which tell of Joseph Smith’s earlier scams until he found one that worked. The man was a charlatan.

    Women who like magic and invisible friends cannot do better that join Wicca.
    I really think you should give Wicca a try, that is a religion which will help you find your true inner woman, your female power, without putting you down as a second grade deficient being. And nobody discriminates in Wicca, you can do or be or wear what you want.
    Oh, and sex if great, it is natural, it is fine if you have sex, no phobias or restrictions on women when it comes to sex. As long as you harm no others you are fine and you can celebrate your sexuality and womanhood in any way you like.
    As women are the embodiment of the Great Goddess women are highly respected in Wicca.

    There are more women on this blog for whom this would be good advice, Christian, Muslim and Mormon women. I really think you all should stand still and think it over, and cross over to Wicca and the Great Goddess. Much better for all of you.

  109. Like Rudyard Kipling (Nobel Prize/Literature) said it so eloquently a century ago or so, “East is East & West is West … Never the Twain Shall Meet”. If only …. if only … our “leaders” had stuck to Kipling’s advice, instead of trying to meld the two. Yet still they don’t learn, they want to go even deeper into this morass, even though many voices in both the East and the West are saying …. don’t.

    When will “leaders” see that the “west” thinks logically, the “east” thinks emotionally? The two are as different as oil & water, there is no ingredient to emulsify the two. East looks backward, the West forward. One seeks vengeance and tyranny, the other forgiveness and love.

    Then how could the two possibly ever live side by side in harmony? It’s nothing more than wishful thinking.

    I see the East (read Islamic) as tribal, archaic & inflexible. There is no place in a modern society (read West) for these people unless they adapt to our culture and values. But that’s where the inflexibility shows … they can’t adapt.

    Already Europe has paid a huge price for the folly of it’s multi-cultural experiment, both financially & in perception. European Union, specifically UK, is now seen to be the “country” which breeds & harbors islamic terrorists.

    More Later ……

  110. Gwen good to hear another Mormon will be ay this blog. There are a lot of similarities between Muslims and mormons. We are Christianin that we believe in Christ. Just remember no one is perfect except the lord. Even prophets are still man. Like any religion there are things that aren’t good but if you stick to the main tenet of Christ then you will be good.

  111. Hmmm. I haven’t read this whole thread. Life is short. However will say this: Please remember distrust, dislike is not limited to Muslims.

    As for a meeting common ground, there is point where we just have to ignore the ignorant, the prosthelyzers, etc.and just get on with the business of living.

    I’m not trying to be glib since I did volunteer for 5 years in the area of race relations in Toronto, but one has to carry their values and principles of building community amongst different groups…well into the decades ahead and live life not too narrowly.

  112. Prosciutto… “Lots of people laugh at the terrorists…”

    That has got to be the most bizarre sentence I have read on this blog. Who laughs at terrorists? Not to mention…it’s rather a mean claim as well…terrorists are busy causing terror with bombs and blood…what is there to laugh at about that?

    Considering all the words you have used in your short time on this blog…it seems you could have expressed that particular thought in a less thoughtless way. You might have said…people laugh at wanna be terrorists…those that are bumbling idiots and can’t figure out which end of the bomb goes boom etc…but actual terrorists are no laughing matter.

  113. Gwendolynn…you are one of the most confused people I have ever had the confusion of reading comments from. I think you changed religions about 3 times so far..just on this post.

    I have a suggestion for you…try no religion for awhile and see how that sits with you. After being muslim for over 20 years..and then shrugging it off and going on my way…all I can say is..you never really know how heavy a burden is…until you put it down and walk away.

    If you want to discuss anything with me I’d be happy too. I use to be one confused redhead…but I saw the light and ran with it. Stop dragging your feet, Gwendolynn…and start running. ;)

  114. Oby, Sun news is similar to Fox. It is very definitely on the extreme right so their reporting is extremely biased. Having said that I am also fearful that Canada will bend to some form of Sharia and it was a Muslim organization that had it stopped the last time. A survey of 400+ Muslims does not give a complete picture either. Most Muslims I know do NOT what Sharia law in any form to come to Canada. My husband is saddened to see the problems it has caused within his own family both in KSA and especially Sudan. He is a Muslim who attends mosque on Fridays when he can, reads the Quran occasionally and is appalled by what is happening in KSA and other Muslim countries. He certainly could be called a moderate but he is a believer but the kind of believer I will all Muslims could be.
    A couple of years ago I thought that people fearing the rise of Islam were misguided but now I think they have many reasons to be afraid AND … so does my husband!!!

  115. @JC: In a sense, Islam already does rule the world, and Islam is the largest religion. The Christians can not be the largest because they are so fragmented that many Christians say that other Christians are not Christians.

    You can hear words like this in most evangelical churches, and there are what, at least 62 different denominations or more?

    I think perhaps that Islam is fragmented also, but perhaps there are only a half dozen different factions?

  116. Let me be politically incorrect here by saying something that some from the “East” may find quite distasteful and controversial: Sharia & our US Constitution … Never the Twain Shall Meet. To assume that Muslims appreciate and accept the same moral values as those cherished by our Founders is insanity bordering on stupidity. Consider that Islamic cultures embrace and institutionalize such things as the murder of innocents, mutilating little girls, men beating their wives, and parents training their four year old children to become suicide bombers.

    Then consider that we Americans are governed by a Constitution that was designed to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. On the other hand, Muslims are governed by a constitutional substitute called sharia law. The two are mutually exclusive. You can follow one and not follow the other, but you cannot follow both at the same time.

    America’s Declaration of Independence​ proclaims that governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. In this nation all power comes from the people not from Allah or the Koran. No nation can be governed by two Constitutions; the people will come to respect one and to despise the other.

    According to our Constitution man’s rights are unalienable and come from pursuit of happiness. Islam does not believe in self-evident truths, natural law, or personal responsibility. Islam does not advance morality as a concept, for under Islam there is no such thing as objective right or wrong and man’s rights are only government handouts.

    Islam is in the process of deconstructing the western world’s traditional freedoms and values because Islam is concerned with license to censure freedom of speech and other freedoms as we know them. It is concerned with establishing a new world order based on sharia law, not justice. That is why there is such a titanic struggle taking place in the world today as to whether future civilizations will be built upon freedom, justice and the Laws of Nature, or the capriciousness of Islam.

    It is true that we are not at war with Islam. But it is also equally true that Islam is at war with us.

    Complicating things further, no Muslim including so-called Muslim Moderates, can or will dispute that the Koran approves of deliberately deceiving non-Muslims and telling them lies (takiya)whenever it advances the Muslim cause. So is it possible to believe and rely on anything that a Muslim says or a Muslim state agrees to? Not hardly! That is why today the world stands at the brink of a cultural and religious abyss.

    For example, Muslims declare Islam to be a “religion of peace.” Yet the facts are that according to Islam there can be no peace until all nations accept Islam as the one and only religion. That is, Islam says peace comes to the earth only when all the world’s nations surrender their sovereignty to serving Islam. That will, of course, never happen.

    So as a practical matter, for example, how can Israel enter into and honor a peace treaty with the Palestinians when that treaty may be based on deliberate lies? How can the United Nations believe that Iran will not further develop and increase its nuclear arsenal just because it signs an agreement saying that it will not?

    Our Founding Fathers believed that American citizens had a natural and given right, rooted in self-government, to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Muslims do not share such beliefs. They see man’s rights not as self-evident, but as entitlements from Allah.

    And now here’s a gem from the East:

    Egypt’s Salafist al-Nour party calls democracy “heresy” at a rally ..

    http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/540666

    At the expense of repeating myself …. and as the poet/sage said so eloquently a century ago: “East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet” :)-

  117. @Aafke-Art: So, you are expert on the Mormons? Aren’t really Christian? You may want to read up on that, or would you rather just voice your opinion in ignorance?

  118. Had to LOL when I saw the title of a recent Washington Post article, “Athiests Distrusted as Much as Rapists”. Made me think of this thread :-).

  119. So have you thought about Wicca? Much more fun, much better for women.

  120. @ Kristine

    So do you distrust atheist?

  121. I am really enjoying the dialogue which is taking place.

    Gwendolyn – Welcome! It is a pleasure to read your comments and I wish you all the best in your spiritual journey.

    Big Stick – When I remarked that I felt less imbalance between Muslims and non-Muslims in Saudi is that I worked for several Saudi institutions which also had Western non-Muslim employees. There was a seamless integration between the groups. Both groups (overall) respected each other as individuals and in their spiritual choices.

    Your other question was in regards to my own acceptance in Saudi. As I’ve always said, what you see is what you get. I did not change myself or my personality in Saudi. However I also knew when it was prudent to comply with culture. For example, in all places outside of Makkah or Medina, I did not wear a hijab or cover my hair. Yet if we were in either of the Holy Cities then I certainly conformed and wore a hijab out of respect for the culture and the location.

    I hope I have answered the questions to your satisfaction.

  122. @onigirifb: Yes, it is a blessing to me to see you here. It has been a tearing thing to decide about becoming LDS, and in a sense part of me will always be Muslim, for I learned good things in it.

    In the final analysis, I do not seek a religion but God, and a true knowlege of him. I have known some good and some bad in Christianity, and Islam. But for me, this feels right.

    I still hope that LDS thought can bring some sanity to the discussion, Allah SWT knows we need it.

  123. Apologies to the moderator; I was trying to point out that I am a woman. :D

    American Bedu, said “For example, in all places outside of Makkah or Medina, I did not wear a hijab or cover my hair. Yet if we were in either of the Holy Cities then I certainly conformed and wore a hijab out of respect for the culture and the location. “

    I think that is fine, Carol IF Muslims also respected other cultures when they lived abroad or travelled. The problem is that most do not. They want it their way in their lands and their way in the rest of the world. I also find it extremely offensive that Muslims are welcomed everywhere in the West including houses of worship, while nonMuslims are restricted as to where they can go, in particular in Mecca or Medina.

    Respect goes both ways. Muslims demand respect but seem to not show much or any respect for other cultures or religions the world over.

    JC, said:
    I hate spamming this blog. But I’m English vocabulary is obviously limited, how is your Arabic?

    Spamming with foul language makes you look very typical, JC. So many Muslim men remain in arrested adolescence. Of course allah and the angels are into cursing, especially at infidels those women who will not obey their husbands and lay down for them at the demand for sex.

    I do not know any four letter words in Arabic, kiddo. Arabic is not particularly useful in the modern world and all the traveler has to know is: Please, thank you, how much is that and where’s the toilet? Arab curses are so much more creative, than those of English. I do have a few choice words, having to do with their mothers and sisters— for those who will not stop harassing women.

    How is your French, Italian, German and Spanish? They also have some great curse words. I could teach you some of those, just for variety. ;)

    Coolred38, said:

    “Prosciutto… “Lots of people laugh at the terrorists…”
    That has got to be the most bizarre sentence I have read on this blog. Who laughs at terrorists? Not to mention…it’s rather a mean claim as well…terrorists are busy causing terror with bombs and blood…what is there to laugh at about that?”

    Well, you did take that quote out of context.

    Allow me to qualify. People laugh at how ridiculous the terrorists look and behave when they are making their, “Islam will conquer the world,” speeches on TV or the net. Recently, Ahmadinejad was in the U. S. and gave a rambling speech along with an interview. He stated that, “There are no homosexuals in Islam.” The college crowd howled with laughter. He also smiled with those little piggy eyes of his and that unkempt beard.

    They do look very funny, these barbarians from the 7th century, with the wino beards, who dream of taking over the world for their fascistic beliefs.

    The guy who looks like an organ grinder’s monkey, with the mutton chops, whom Carol has highlighted, the one who claims that Honeymoons are haram, I find him hilarious looking. He talks funny too. Those guys on their soap boxes in Britain, wildly gesticulating are hysterical.

    I do not think that what terrorists do is funny, just how they look and speak. Certainly comedians have made plenty out of their looks and manner of speech.

    “I don’t understand why women who feel the need to believe in magic and invisible friends seek out these vile misogynistic Abrahamic religion, Or Mormonism, which is so clearly scam that I cannot see how anybody can fall for it.”

    Because, these women have all been programmed to be subjugated and feel themselves less equal to men. At least in Mormonism women get a better place in Heaven based on the number of kiddies that they have popped out for the faith. In Islam they get the same old husband in Paradise to watch as he services 72 raisins through eternity.

    Gwendolyn and the like must have been terribly traumatized in their lives to feel so inadequate as women.

    Harry Guggen, said:
    ” Like Rudyard Kipling (Nobel Prize/Literature) said it so eloquently a century ago or so, “East is East & West is West … Never the Twain Shall Meet”. If only …. if only … our “leaders” had stuck to Kipling’s advice, instead of trying to meld the two.”

    It really depends on which people of the East you are talking about, Harry. I have worked with lots of Asians: Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc. They are all fine in their efforts to meld East and West, IF they are not Muslims.

    The fact is that most cultures meld beautifully keeping much of their own traditions and honoring the new. The only one that explicitly forbids such melding in is Islam. Even the ultra-orthodox Jews seem to not go around throwing bombs and trying to destroy the societies in which they have taken refuge.

    “Already Europe has paid a huge price for the folly of it’s multi-cultural experiment, both financially & in perception. European Union, specifically UK, is now seen to be the “country” which breeds & harbors islamic terrorists”

    Actually, the Europeans are doing much more than anyone in the West to reign in radical Muslims. They have passed lots of laws and more to come. There are hundreds of holding centers all over Western and Easter Europe from whence these folks get deported. The UK is another story. They have big, BIG problems! The U. S. is way behind as well. However, in the U. S. Muslims appear to be assimilating more readily.

  124. I actually think that there is a fear of the west. So much so that they many muslims are becoming more fundalmental and creating isolation of themselves from the world. If you look at countries today such as Eygpt or even Saudi women were freer than they are now 40 or 50 years ago. Also interesting to note is that many islamic countries have strict censorship on the internet, discussion of the religion is not tolerated if deemed to question, the media for the most part is also censored. Many items that are deemed to be western are shunned or outright demeaned. So, maybe in regards to westernophobia it is a fear of us influencing their environment as to why many are starting to isolate themselves. Particular as the younger generation is becoming more area of the world and asking for some of the very things that we in the west take for granted. This is my take on it. Anyone have another take?

  125. @Coolred38: LOL, perhaps you are right, though it is not my path. I have had others tell me that the failure rate for white American women converts to Islam is about 2/3, and I can see why now. It is very hard for a non-Arabic speaking Western woman to adapt. Too hard for many.

  126. @American Bedu

    Yes that answers it thanks.

    Do I note some sarcasam? On the dialogue?

  127. Gwendolyn…I have not read all the above comments YET because I want to say my piece without knowing others opinions.

    I don’t know you, but the way you write you seem to be a gentle person. You are also quite obviously in flux about what you want to be religious wise. in my view there is nothing wrong with that as it indicates that you are searching for contentment and the right path for yourself and you are not afraid to move as needed. But I think switching a faith is a fairly serious business as one’s faith or non faith generally guide them through life and help them make decisions in how to face the world. It is a personal identifier…even non faith is a personal identifier. If Islam has not harmed you that is good. I feel that too many Muslims don’t follow what Islam is “supposed” to be or what I hear it is supposed to be about. There is too much hate and violence in the islamic world right now…and I don’t even mean against nonmuslims. They kill each other left and right.

    I am glad that this blog has pressured the question about what faith you should choose but please do not make that decision in haste. Perhaps you should not follow a faith but ask yourself what is most important to you in terms of belief. If you don’t believe in Jesus, I think the Mormon faith might be a bit difficult to be a part of. Some will say mormons are a cult, others say it is a faith. I personally believe it is a faith although I don’t believe in it myself. A very good friend of mine is a mormon…but of the nonfanatical type. I have seen the inner workings to some degree and I myself am amazed at how they dedicate themselves to service even to those not in their circle. Mormon families are quite close knit and the ones I have met seem very healthy and normal. Almost without fail I have seen the children be very respectful of adults even when they themselves are approaching adulthood. I don’t mean subservience. I mean respect for elders type respect. They are taught how to be self sufficient in a crisis and most one I know have a small storehouse of food that they rotate regularly. It is there in case of a crisis. The church has a food production center and those mormons who are down on their luck are allowed to shop at the local food storehouse until they get back on their feet. Their self reliance is pretty amazing. They are taught financial responsibility through their church…how to live within your means and not get into debt (or at least at my friends church they did) They are all about doing service as a blessing. So they look for opportunities to be of service…all the while loving Jesus and God.

    Take time and consider your options. I am one of those pesky free wheeling, annoying Christians that believes God will love you no matter the path (religion) a person takes to get to him and I don’t believe my faith is the only RIGHT faith on the planet. It is right FOR ME. Maybe it is a bit whimpy but it also makes room for everyone too. God will still love you even if you are in flux! :-)

  128. @American Bedu: Thank you for the kind welcome. I also wish you the best in this journey of yours. I hope that you will survive for a long long time.

  129. JC…

    Here is some info on the hate literature in American mosques.

    http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/special_report/45.pdf

  130. @ Bigstick, no, I don’t, nor do I have any judgements toward athiests. I just thought it was ironic and timely with all the talk about distrust towards Muslims.

  131. “I think perhaps that Islam is fragmented also, but perhaps there are only a half dozen different factions?”

    Yes, but sadly they don’t just disagree, they often kill each other! My Syrian friend always told how they were different. Syrians got along unlike those other countries where Muslims fought other Muslims and Christians. But maybe that was because they were all under the thumb of a police state (i.e., brutal regime)? And now that that regime is threatened, guess what?

    The Syrians are dividing up with the Shiites mostly supporting Assad (who is Alawaite) and the Sunnis (the majority population) growing increasingly hateful towards those who support Assad. It’s civil war. Same old sad story. Breaks my heart. I love Syria.

  132. Wendy…

    Yes someone pointed that out. I didn’t realize that. Thanks for letting me know. I try hard to print only mainstream links. This popped up on google when I was searching for something and I thought it was a regular paper. Still the guys commentary is interesting in that he is NOT talking about NONmuslims. They probably are much the way you have said…he is talking about Muslims in Canada. Stiff, if it an Enquirer type article, I have to take it with a grain of salt.

  133. @Gwendolyn

    You are definitely in a religious funk. I would suggest that you take sometime, figure out who you are, explore your options and maybe take the advise of Coolred38 for a while. However, you being a muslim in the west could answer if muslims are in some ways fearing a change to how they live, their ideology and the influence of the west on this? Of course your view would be limited I suspect to the US.

  134. @ bigstick

    Fear is the correct word for the older Islamic generation. The reason is clear. Most of their societies are failed ones. They dependent on the rest of the world for a living. Saudi is rich only because of oil. If they did not have it, they probably be even worse off than Egypt or maybe Yemen. Most Muslim nations are not self sustaining. In spite of the fact that Turkey’s economy is booming, honor killings and violence against women are up exponentially and the islamists are gaining more and more power. Islam and democracy do not mix!

    Most of the men of Islam are failures, they have done nothing to allow their societies to progress in the modern world, so they try to control their women and children. The youth OTOH, because of being connected via the media and the net, see that what they have been told about the world and especially the West is a bunch of lies. They aspire to live as we do. This conflicts with Islam. The problem is that living in a democracy requires personal discipline, making good choices and an educated populace. Being confronted with countless choices, many of which are not so kosher, requires a strong moral compass. Islam does not teach personal control or critical thinking. It teaches the obeying of rules.

    The good thing is that the majority of the populations of the umma are very young. If anything helps them to save themselves it will be being connected to the world. However, there will be lots of blood in the meantime. Education is the key to peace and prosperity although, many an educated, professional Muslim still believes in magic.

    Go figure. ;)

  135. Sorry all but I don’t have time to read through all the comments at the moment. Just wanted to say that the funny thing about this blog topic is that many times, I find I have more in common with my “Eastern” Muslim friends than I do with those “Western” non-Muslim friends.

    My “Eastern” Muslim significant other and I have more in common than I would with many people who are very “Western” non-Muslim (which is the category I’d be lumped into even though I am a mix of Eastern and Western ideas and culture myself- though I am an American through and through).

  136. @StrangeOne:

    Why is that, could you explain further the differences?

  137. Gwendolyn, go to the FLDS, they always need more females.

  138. @Aafke-Art:

    Ouch.

  139. Carol…
    “Your other question was in regards to my own acceptance in Saudi. As I’ve always said, what you see is what you get. I did not change myself or my personality in Saudi. However I also knew when it was prudent to comply with culture. For example, in all places outside of Makkah or Medina, I did not wear a hijab or cover my hair. Yet if we were in either of the Holy Cities then I certainly conformed and wore a hijab out of respect for the culture and the location.”

    Pretty much sums up how I feel about travel…more or less.

  140. YouTube channel on the Prophet http://www.youtube.com/user/Rasoolullah

    The more the world learns about the “perfect” man, the better! Provide, of course, that they do not whitewash and lie by omission.

  141. Strange One..

    You don’t have to answer this, but I thought you and your significant other had parted ways in large part due to differences in religion. Maybe I am thinking of someone else, or is this a different muslim significant other. Not prying just trying to keep histories of regulars straight.

  142. Carol and Oby spoke of complying with Saudi culture by donning the appropriate clothing as prudent guests. I wonder if these Saudi women will show respect for French culture and comply with the French dress code—sans veil or abaya?

    Saudi women professionals visit Paris to gain from experiences of their counterparts

    This visit takes added significance especially that Saudi women will be allowed to vote in the next municipal elections,” … Meanwhile, the Ministry of Justice was currently making a study to enable the Saudi women lawyers to practice under certain conditions….” http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article545656.ecea

    Perhaps these Saudi female lawyers will learn that their French counterparts are permitted to practice along side men under all conditions and not just on separate women’s issues while being segregated.

    I think that personality is very much influenced by the clothing one wears. A garment meant to make women invisible would at the very least affect their behavior in public.

    According to the religious pages on Arab News:

    ”Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the most successful man in the entire human history. Being the last Prophet of Islam, he not only set a good example for the whole mankind but also showed to them how to achieve success in this world…” http://arabnews.com/lifestyle/islam/article538181.ece?comments=all#comments

    One has to wonder why Muslims are not more successful in the world? Why do they have to learn from the infidel West, which so many claim to hate?

  143. @JC

    “What I truly find fucking hilarious on this blog specifically. Is how Muslims on here try to justify their faith, and the Non-Muslims try to persuade them into believing that their religion is in fact violent and disturbing, which it fucking is, for sure. But fucking hell man, if they interpret shit a certain way, let them have it, who fucking cares? To insinuate that they’re all bloodthirsty people looking to get one over the west is in fact bullshit, at least here in the States. I can’t speak about the batshit crazies that Europe gets, just speaking of my own experience, and I never came across any of that shit, be it in Saudi or America, even Canada when I visit.”

    First, JC your use of colorful metaphors while trying to get across your message is illuminating. Is this your normal way of expressing your thoughts?

    Second, how much exposure are you getting to other muslims other than those on the campus? Why do you view the muslims as batshit crazies in Europe?

    Third, why is Saudi becoming more and more restrictive in many areas and more isolated? Why are you wanting to stay in the US vs. going back to Saudi?

    I can’t wait for your comment. I am wondering if it will be possible for you to limit the colorful exploits of your comments or not?

  144. @oby: Thank you, or Mashallah for your kind assessment of my character. I assure you that I am quite flawed, just like the rest of us. LOL

    Changing to Mormonisim has not been a spur of the moment thing. This has been going on for many months, and admittedly I have waffled. I drive people bats with the way I think, but really am harmless. :)
    The discussion last night finally galvanised me to decide. To me, being LDS is a faith, and it makes sense. If one applies consistent logic then Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon make as much sense as Muhamaad PBUH and the Qur’an, and the Bible. Sure, they sort of blew it the Christians with their polygamy, but with Muslims this should not be a problem. And still, I believe there is a correct context for it as in providing rest and support for widows and abandoned women with children. However, a man with 30 wives is just icky to me, as is a 50 year old man with a 9 year old wife.

    I don’t think that the historical record demonstrates that Muhammad PBUH was a cradle robber. If one has knowledge of the culture of the time, it would seem more defensible. The actual belief in Allah SWT and Muhammad PBUH is still with me, but it is the hatefulness of Muslims toward even each other that has disillusioned me. Some of the Hadiths are just goofy, and the very idea that some man could feel he has the legal right to beat me is beyond the pale. Um well, he might try to… we all have pasts, and I have mine.

    I will say that I think that much of the US is paranoid about Muslims. I do not think that Muslims will kill me in spite of the fact that some Mormons think they will try.

    I have made a life of study of the Bible, History, and Islam in the formative years, and find the state of the world with all their different belief systems to be absolutely shameful. How can so many devout people be so war like; killing and murdering with absolute abandon?

  145. @susanne430 Yes, the Middle East is like a boiling pot and who can say where it will end? And then the USA is like a meddlesome old woman trying to break up a dog fight with a stick.

    Of course, in my opinion, the West caused much of the pain in the Middle East. Instead of bowing, cajoling, seducing, begging and outright stealing the oil there, the West should have been devoting all that effort, money and the lives of American soldiers to doing research to find ways of producing energy with out the oil. I think that God put the oil deep in the Earth for a reason and we should have left it there, perhaps.

  146. @Gwendolyn:

    When you read the holy books hasn’t it ever occurred to you that they by there own construct and teachings create racism, bigotry, gender apartheid, murder, hatred, deception, theft, slavery, torture, and prostitution (sex slavery)? They in fact don’t elevate women to any level of respect and actually causes psychological harm to her. In that she she is a lesser being, the door way to sin, and subject to the whims of a man? All this based on a words written down by someone on paper? Some of whom were even illiterate, so it was written by others, and the only knowledge of the world was through warring tribes and the social construct of the time?

  147. @Prosciutto

    Interesting how you keep referring to me as a Muslim man, get your head out of your ass. Arabic might now have use in the modern world, but one such as yourself that spent decades studying the Arabic world and the Islamic religion would attempt to make headway.

    Why should I learn Italian or French or Spanish for that reason? It does not pertain to my field of study, nor is it going to serve me me all that well in the future.

    Arabic is my first language, I think I have decent enough grasp of the English language. We can’t all master the romance language such as yourself.

    Oh and please keep on calling me kiddo, I turned 25 not long ago, and I’ve been feeling old! I’m glad I can still come off younger than my age at times, good stuff man. I’m sure you must be over the hill though.

    @Oby

    Did you try reading the publication you linked to? It is outdated, and bulk of the material is pre-9/11, with only one being post-9/11.

    “The bulk of the material was collected in November and December 2003. In December 2004, additional samples were collected from mosques in Washington, Falls Church, Los Angeles, Orange County and Chicago showing that the problem continues as this report goes to press. One of the documents from Saudi Arabia’s Islamic Affairs Ministry bears the post-9/11 publication date of 2002, while most of the other titles were published in the 1980s and 1990s.”

    Do you have any information from your local mosques? Or you just resort to online groups to do the work for you?

    @Bigstick
    First, JC your use of colorful metaphors while trying to get across your message is illuminating. Is this your normal way of expressing your thoughts?
    With friends, for sure. With strangers, maybe after a couple of drinks. But hey their I ago playing right into the stereotype of the wayward alcohol guzzling Saudi, eh? Damned if I do, damned if I don’t. I guarantee you if I wasn’t Arab, Prosciutto there, would have been content to call me a perpetual adolescent, and not keep insinuating I am Muslim, and how such behavior is so common amongst Muslim males.

    Second, how much exposure are you getting to other muslims other than those on the campus?

    Not much, both on and off campus.

    Why do you view the muslims as batshit crazies in Europe?

    I said that comment in jest. Because Europe is a culture I’m not all that familiar with, so there I go making a dumbass of myself, and assuming they’re all batshit insane. Hey that’s another thing I’m not all that great at, humor!

    Third, why is Saudi becoming more and more restrictive in many areas and more isolated?

    How is it becoming more restrictive? It’s always been fucked. If anything they introduced female ID cards not long ago (big whoop!), and some female deputy minister. Saudi isn’t necessarily getting more restrictive, although that could change with Naif coming into power, the post from a week ago was depressing enough, so I guess they could becoming more restrictive. Why? It just comes down to something that the people of Saudi Arabia don’t mind. Which I’ve said plenty of times on here before. Majority rule reigns supreme over there, what can you do?

    Why are you wanting to stay in the US vs. going back to Saudi?
    I think you’re a smart enough individual to figure that out yourself.

    I can’t wait for your comment. I am wondering if it will be possible for you to limit the colorful exploits of your comments or not?

    Is it possible? Sure it is. Would I want to? I guess we’ll fucking find out.

    Apparently my use of fuck gets a rise out of people on here, it’s funny.

  148. @Aafke-Art:
    LOL, it is funny that every time the subject of Mormons comes up the FLDS are sure to follow. In point of fact, the FLDS comprise about 3000 people. The main stream, Salt Lake Mormons are about 15 million people and they do not practice polygamy.

    Mormons are interesting because they really try to be the church that Jesus Christ wanted, Ver 1.0. In my opinion, after he left, Christianity took off in some really strange directions with the institution of Celibacy, the Trinity debate, and several other doctrines that, to me defy logic. I’ve gotten more relaxed with the Trinity issue but that is because they do not seem to force me like others have.

    I’d say that the rest of Christianity is struggling and trying to find its self. The attacking of other faiths is of the devil and they do it with great abandon. The GBLT issue is so devisive, and will remain so until science is so unavoidable that it can not be avoided.

    So, I would not have even considered returning to the Christianity and the plastic Jesus, that I once knew, but when the LDS approached me with their unfailing love, it began to be very difficult to ignore them. I still do not know if I will be granted membership, but I now know where my heart takes me.

  149. @JC

    Thanks. How is your head this morning? Your are a college kid out exploring your surroundings and doing what college kids do. The good, the bad and the ugly. Sometimes with regrets, sometimes not, but most all the time with as much fun pack in between studies. So no, it has nothing to do with you being muslim and everything to do with you being your age and wanting to experience things differently. Sometimes with some reckless abandonment that we all hope is responsible enough not to get anyone hurt.

    Your use of language doesn’t bother me but it does others. You can lose the intent of your message as people get testy about the use of words. I have personnally been around people whose every other word was “fuck” then add other color metaphors.

    I have a number of reasons why you would rather stay here. It doesn’t give me your reason though as it might be different from mine. Does you parents know and how do they feel about it?

  150. @ Gwendolyn;

    How do you know what Jesus Christ wanted? We have no know writings from Jesus? Only writings from others 50 to 90 years after his death. So, who is to say they didn’t get it wrong or have a personnal agenda?

  151. @bigstick,

    Just a small correction. It was writings about a fictional character that lived 50-90 years earlier. Those writings themselves were not preserved correctly, went through translations to different languages, then a committee decided what to keep and what to throw away.

    Quite a twisted story and people live their lives by it ;)

  152. @Bigstick:
    Yes, history is written by the victor. If you explore the rift between the Shia and the Sunni, it gets even more bizzarre, and I can not figure out who is right.

    With Muslims, sometimes I wish they would all go see a good therapist. They really do need to get over the past, and stop with the victim mentality that some of them have. I think that in the time of Muhammad PBUH, women were treated much better than previously. In fact, Muhammad was the first to document rights for women. The Constitution of Medina documented the first rights for women, and improved their state over what was previous.

    According to a Muslim Scholar I know, who lives in the UK but is very disillusioned with present day Islam, Women’s rights in Islam did not fall to their present day level until around 1800. And no, I do not understand all I have heard on the subject.

  153. Gwendolyn, considering your lowly, masochistic outlook on yourself as a woman, and your sudden love for Mormon, I would say the FLDS would be the perfect choice for you.
    If, after a few years, you don’t like it you can always become Buddhist.

  154. @Gwendolyn,

    I am sorry where is this women rights document you are talking about? I would like to have a copy please..

    You have been all over the place here, touching on subjects superficially. and making wild claims. I would like to see how much you can support these arguments of yours.

    Most of your stories also sound like wild fantasies…

  155. @Gwendolyn:

    Again, there is no way of knowing if women were not treated better prior to Muhammad, pbuh, as it is typical for the victor to write history in their favor. It is known that members of Islam destroyed aspects of the old culture as a means to wash away all that would create problems in the construct of the new intended culture. I am skeptical that he was the first to document women’s rights as many times documents from others was wiped out. It is possible that he sent women backwards instead of forwards. Given that prior to his assentation that his wife was a weallty business owner, women had business, they were rulers and there are even stories of women have greater authority over men (a degree above them). Similar to Christians, women actually had a great deal more power in the 1st and 2nd century. There is enough evidence to say that women were deacons, apostles, business owners, etc., then in the 3rd century with the Roman Emperor crafted the bible for his political purposes all that changed.

  156. JC, it’s so immature to use the word fuck all over the place. To find it funny only proves immaturity. You should think about that, you behave like a 15 year old.
    It’s also bad manners, it’s rude, it makes you look like a prig, it’s boring, do you want to come across as all these things? Think about it.

  157. @Bigstick

    You got it.

  158. assentation should be ascension

  159. @Aafke

    Hey, to each his own. This is the third time you’ve mentioned it, and you’re obviously going no where.

    Some people tend use words that are part of their lexicon. I find RAmen to be sorta immature, but different floats for different boats.

  160. @Bigstick
    This gets into a miasma of thought that leads one to the casting off of all religion, and I have chosen not to do that. For me, there is a basic idea that what we see around us was done with purpose. I do not think the chaos theory ever created anything.

    So, at some basic level, I know that there is a God. Enough different people say the same things about Jesus Christ, or Isa PBUH that I believe in his existence. His instructions were very basic in that he said, to love God, and to love each other. For me, all the rest is fluff in comparison.

    It is a sad commentary on humanity that we get so bound up in the “fluff” that we forget the basics, as simple as they are. So, after years of listening to the likes of Falwell, and Hagee I grew very disillusioned and then they did me the favor of throwing me out.

    I found the same problem in Islam in that some would tell me to stay in my home all the time and remain under my Burqa, while others would tell me that Hijab was a state of mind. Then, the way they kill each other is greatly disillusioning. It is easy to find youtube vids of Saudi police attacking Shia even at Hajj.

    So, for a long time I survived by telling myself that my private Islam was enough and I should just look at my own conduct and be thankful before Allah SWT. That is a very lonely way to live, and to be frank, American female converts to Islam are not treated well by the extended family and some of the other women. We never know what is said about us because we do not speak Arabic or Urdu.

    So, when I met some Mormons, I was ripe for the picking, to leave Islam. I had actually been thinking of having no religon, so maybe this will work out, and if it does not then there is only God and me.

  161. @MoQ

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

    Look for women’s rights.

  162. LOL, seams you’re ripe for the picking every few years!

  163. @Bigstick:
    It is interesting to talk to you. You have some good points. I do have a tendency to view historical figures as neither good or bad, and I was treated badly enough by Christians that Muslims in America would have to go some to compare. I must think on this.

  164. @ Gwendolyn:

    Your are correct on the casting off of no religion and that is where I am at. I have no intention of ever going back. However, as you are trying to determine your next move it is always best to have thought through all the arguments prior to jumping from one religion to another. You have already indicated whether you chose to acknowledge it or not that you want as a woman independence, value of self, guidance, and acceptance to deviation. Maybe you need to find a church that allows you to seek the faith that allows you to be more yourself and allows a certain independency in questioning the doctrine.

  165. Gwendolyn, you could always become a Pastafarian, after 15 years, when you’ve tried 8 other religions.

  166. @Aafke-Art,

    Ouch, agian.

  167. @Gwendolyn,

    Like I thought a superficial wiki link. You do not know what these documents say do you?

    Actually the closest thing you have to having a document is the Ibn Ishag, Sirat Raswl Allah. He covers some of the treaties that the prophet wrote with local tribes. If you accept Ibn Ishag writings, you will also find many issues that Muslims do not accept from Mohammed attacking Meccan Caravan’s to killing poets.

    You have to realize that any Treaty the prophet wrote with tribes were all null, as he did not follow through by raiding as many tribes as he can once he became powerful,

  168. JC

    “How is it becoming more restrictive? It’s always been fucked. If anything they introduced female ID cards not long ago (big whoop!), and some female deputy minister. Saudi isn’t necessarily getting more restrictive, although that could change with Naif coming into power, the post from a week ago was depressing enough, so I guess they could becoming more restrictive. Why? It just comes down to something that the people of Saudi Arabia don’t mind. Which I’ve said plenty of times on here before. Majority rule reigns supreme over there, what can you do”

    I have thinking about your answer. Democracy is mob rule. Many in the US state that we have democracy but that isn’t exactly true we are actually a federal republic with constitutional guidelines that ensure that the majority does not infringe on the minorities rights. Thereby the US protects the interest of the minority. This being the case between the two types of governances then by your statement Saudi is a theocratic democracy. However, the only way to truly know if the majority wants this in place is to vote on the matter.

    Points to ponder.

  169. JC…

    For your information I actually DID read the vast majority of it. It took me awhile to plow through most of it. I posted this before when I first came upon it about 9 months or so ago. It is quite long and in places a major snore…why don’t you try reading it before judging. You are missing the point…most of it might be PRE 9/11, but it was collected POST 9/11 in 2004 which means as of that date which is after 9/11 it was still in use. The quran was written 1400 years ago, which is WAAAY prior to 9/11 but it is still in use and used as a guide today, is it not? So does it matter how old the material is if people are still sing it as a reference?

    And you can drop the sarcasm as I am not one looking to pick a fight. I try to discourse always with respect.

  170. JC, said:
    @Prosciutto
    Interesting how you keep referring to me as a Muslim man, get your head out of your ass.

    Oh, I am doing my best. lol

    I recall that somewhere you mentioned what your initials stand for. I thought your name was male. The only thing worse than a man with a foul mouth is a woman. ;)

    Arabic might now have use in the modern world, but one such as yourself that spent decades studying the Arabic world and the Islamic religion would attempt to make headway.

    Why should I learn Italian or French or Spanish for that reason? It does not pertain to my field of study, nor is it going to serve me me all that well in the future.

    Arabic is not very useful anywhere in the modern world and certainly not for scholars. Muslims themselves did a great job of translating their religous books and histories. Educated Arabs speak English and often French.

    French is very useful all over the world including Africa. It is the translating language of the U. N. and the language of civilization such as in those fancy restaurants that wealthy Arabs like to visit. Spanish is also very useful since Latin countries are booming and it is simple to learn. Italian grammar is even more simple and just a lovely language. I would not recommend that you try to master German. While the Arabs do fairly well with the pronuciation, the compound words and grammar are extraordinarily difficult.

    Oh and please keep on calling me kiddo, I turned 25 not long ago, and I’ve been feeling old! I’m glad I can still come off younger than my age at times, good stuff man. I’m sure you must be over the hill though. “

    Since the “hill” for Muslims is 25—after that women have little chance of marrying—then yes, I am over 25 and over that hill. But—I am married. So, all is well. Not only that, I must look terrific because Muslim men, especially Arabs, Turks and Pakistanis, keep hitting on me. They like blondes. ;)

    Do you have any information from your local mosques? Or you just resort to online groups to do the work for you?

    Why do Arabs always want others to do the work for them? You can go to your local mosque and get the info. It is freely available all over the West. What I know is that my local imam told me to my face that, “All Western women are whores.” This guy is highly educated and married to a revert. (She does everyone a favor veiling, with a face and body only a mother and a Muslim could love.) It is not the first time that I have heard such insulting stuff about women from a Muslim male.

    I could post lots of hateful, supremacist writings for Saudi school books. It makes one’s hair stand on end. Human Rights watch takes Saudi to task on those all the time. Still, if you went to school in Saudi, you must know.

    @Bigstick I guarantee you if I wasn’t Arab, Prosciutto there, would have been content to call me a perpetual adolescent, and not keep insinuating I am Muslim, and how such behavior is so common amongst Muslim males.

    Actually, I thought that I said it was common among Arab males. Whether Muslim or otherwise, they tend to be immature and very, very rude—like you.

    Second, how much exposure are you getting to other muslims other than those on the campus?

    Can’t speak for anyone else, but I get a lot of exposure because I work with Muslims, frequent their shops and I socialize with them as well. Frequently at parties they demand halal food and that no alcohol be served, despite the fact that there are ten times as many nonMuslims as Muslims attending. There are those special acomodations again.

    .
    to bigstick—Why do you view the muslims as batshit crazies in Europe?
    I said that comment in jest. Because Europe is a culture I’m not all that familiar with, so there I go making a dumbass of myself, and assuming they’re all batshit insane. Hey that’s another thing I’m not all that great at, humor!

    You could try to aspire to something above bathroom humor. ;)

    Europe is many different cultures. The thing that Europeans have in common is the Euro, great food, art, science and literature as well as their disdain and repulsion of Islam. That dates all the way back to the Turks. European parents used to warn their children to behave and if they did not, that “the Turks would come and get them.” Why? Because the Turks were infamous for kidnapping Europeans, to enslave the men and to use the women in the Seraglios. The Sultan has thousands of “wives.” Mozart wrote an opera about it, which rings true even today: The Abduction from the Seraglio

    Things are not much different today. Many a Westerner has been enslaved by Muslims. Many women kept prisoner in Saudi against their will and many children of Western women kidnapped by Arab/Saudi men. In fact, some of the crazier extremists encourage their followers to make sex slaves of nonMuslim women. A number of Arabs have been prosecuted in the West and even in their own countries for enslavement.

    That said, there are more slaves today than there have ever been in the history of mankind. Many are sex slaves.

    So, you appear to have rejected Islam but you are arguing that everyone is wrong about what Muslims are doing and what the goals of Islam are in the Qur’an?

  171. @JC – ‘I’m glad I can still come off younger than my age at times,’

    Keep on using that colorful language that the uneducated youth tend to use and you’ll be all set there ;-)

    ‘Do you have any information from your local mosques?’

    My local mosque’s gave links on their website for people who wanted to learn more about Islam. They linked to http://islamqa.com/en. Have you ever perused that website? If not you should, it will likely give you a laugh. But as a mother of a young girl who got sucked in and learned Islam from that website I didn’t find it funny. I had read in our local paper how they were having an ‘open house’ and a reporter was going to be going there to do a feel good report on how what a great part of our community they were (or whatever). So, I emailed every single e-mail account of the mosque’s board members and asked them if they were going to direct that reporter to that website that they used to explain Islam and I specifically left this link http://islamqa.com/en/ref/136360 since, while it was not MY daughter that had posted the question it was still an impressionable 12 year old being advised to go against her parents. I also told them if they had any questions about why I thought that was a problem they should talk to the sheikh (that totally disregarded MY daughter’s family when he married her off to a stranger who needed a green card.) I didn’t say that last part I just told them to ask the sheikh about me. Well, I didn’t get ANY responses to my very polite (albeit threatening exposure to the reporter) e-mail but they DID remove those links from their website. I had also seen the ‘Sunday School’ book that my daughter’s friend had sent home with her and I didn’t find anything pleasant in that either. Lots and LOTS about the evils of non-Muslims.

    ‘Apparently my use of fuck gets a rise out of people on here, it’s funny’

    I don’t think it gets a ‘rise’ out of people as much as it lowers you. But if you are ok with people taking you to be an immature, uneducated kid, then that’s your business.

  172. @proscuitto -“I drink wine with dinner and I eat pork products as well. What’s on the menu?”

    You will have your Wine, My son also mixes a mean margharita and you can have all the beer you want. I have just now after my trip to the bahamas learnt how to make a bahama mama so that is available as well :-) As for Pork sorry you are out of luck , We run a purely vegetarian household.

    You would get no debate on the Koran or hadith from me, I’m not muslim and not well versed with the book. However my husband is and if you start a debate he would tell you that faith is between him and god and god gave him a brain to know right from wrong and he usually uses said brain fully .

    My kids could probably speak breiefly abut the koran and probably a bit more indetail about hindu dharma :-)

    so do come and visit us . Mostly the table talk around here nowadays is partially medical and partially about the pros and cons of various med schools in our country and the inordinate amount of money they cost. :-)

  173. I want to remind everybody of the post ”Blog rules”
    Newcomers should read it.
    Everybody should read it.

    http://americanbedu.com/2011/05/03/american-bedu-blog-rules/

    Rude language, personal attacks, and extremely long comments are not appreciated.
    Keep your comments clean and terse.
    Read the Blog rules
    Moderator

  174. There will never be peace, because we are polar opposites, and a “threat” to each others way of life. It’s sad, but true.

  175. Amal, on December 11, 2011 at 12:55 am said: There will never be peace, because we are polar opposites, and a “threat” to each others way of life. It’s sad, but true.

    I agree with Amal, 1000%

  176. Prosciutto…your examples of “terrorists” are more like resident idiots. President of iran will become a true terrorist once he sends out a nuke…which he keeps indicating is on his bucket list. A terrorist is someone who actually sheds blood…not sits in front of a camera, opens their mouth…and what little brains they have fall out along with all the other bs that’s in there.

    Anyhow…if you want to know some arabic cuss words…I can hook you up. ;) Always useful when stopping an arab man in his tracks…the look of shock last long enough to walk away while hiding that kick ass smirk from his wounded ego. ;)

  177. ”we are polar opposites”
    There are no polar opposites, as long as people behave according to healthy normal moral rules everybody could live together fine. I know religions want it differently, but nobody has to listen to them.
    So if we do not follow the nasty bits of religion and only choose to follow the morally acceptable bits of religion everything could be fine.

  178. This is awful. Most of you are truly sad examples for human beings. There are a few bright ones, though, and that’s good. My heart kind of weeps for you people.

  179. JC’s colorful language made me remember a year or so ago when I read “sharmuta” in a book and mentioned it in passing to my Syrian friend. He was like “Oh, you shouldn’t say that,” yet I insisted that saying prostitute or whore wasn’t that big of a deal so why should the Arabic version be a problem. He insisted I not say it. Maybe what we say makes people see us in different lights. I really don’t know if “sharmuta” is such a bad word, but he sure didn’t think it was something I should throw around causally.

    Or maybe he was just trying to control me?

    *shrug*

  180. @ Amal

    I do not agree that there will never be peace. The last 50 years has been the most peaceful time in all of human history, despite regional conflicts. The Arab Spring/Winter will keep them so busy that the rest of the world can get on with living in peace.

    While Islam is a threat to modern democracies, the reverse is not true. Muslims benefit a great deal from democracies. More terror might make the gravy train stop.

    @ Coolred38,

    The thing is that Iran is a State sponsor of terror. That makes their leaders terrorists to many people. Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar didn’t do much of their own dirty work. They are still considered terrorists as are many of the extremist preachers.

    Oh, thanks for the offer, but I know the common, modern cuss words, referring to mothers and sisters, as I said. They work rather well. So does a stiletto on the toes and a couple of fingers in the eyes. Never go for the groin, the idiots expect that. Carrying a very solid umbrella with a long, strong shaft is quite useful.

    Being good at self defense and throwing one of these ingrates over your shoulder, in front of his pals who are always egging him on, is very entertaining. ;)

    @ susanne430 Yes, “sharmoota” means bitch, prostitute or whore. Arab men (and women) throw that word around a great deal. If you refuse their offer you are sharmoota, if you accept you are still one or even better a “shlokeh.”

    Win, win! :D

  181. Susanne..when I met my future best friend..she cussed like a sailor in english. I would sit there shocked as she said some english cuss words that your average american doesn’t say on a bad day..and she used it in general conversation like any other adjective. I tried explaining to her that we don’t generally use such strong cuss words in everyday conversation…when you’re really mad is when your language gets colorful for most of us..yet she insisted that she learned it all watching american tv so it must be normal english. I told her nothing on american tv is normal…and do you hear me or any other average american using the C word (among others) in polite conversation etc? (she learned the word c**t from some of her teenage students and used it when describing some of the things that went on in her segregated girls school…I laughed while being shocked to hear such a harsh word coming from her in such a blase way…the way you might say the table or shoe). It took me quite awhile to break her of the habit..and believe me..I was not the only one raising eyebrows at her choice of vocabulary…but for her it was just regular conversation. She wasn’t using the words to shock…understand?

    Anyhow…at one point I got desperate and told her…if you can cuss like a sailor around me and my kids I will cuss in front of your mother and family in arabic. She was SHOCKED!! Oh no..you can’t say those words. The very same words she was saying around us in english with no sense of “shame” she was forbidding me to use in front of her family because they were “so bad” and shocking. I’m like..what is the difference…in english or arabic…still cuss words. She said…but for you americans cuss words are ok…for us…very very bad. Only the lowest people use them…or men fighting or what not. I explained that it was the same for us for the most part…despite tv fantasy land. She wouldn’t hear of it. If I even pretended I was going to say f**k in front of her mother (a favorite word of my friend…it was used to death) in arabic…she litterally either smacked a hand over my mouth..or dragged me out of the room. No lie. She wasn’t about to let me shock her mom or family by being crass and saying a cuss word in arabic.

    I still fail to see the difference between what language you cuss in…but apparently for arabs (as you know from your friend) there is a big difference.

    Incidently, I had to laugh when I first arrived in Bahrain and realized everyone’s idea of putting you down etc was to call you a dog, donkey, cow etc. And boy did that cause a reaction…fighting etc. Back then I was like…why do you guys get so upset over being called an animal name…well it’s sooooo bad to them. Them’s fighten words!! (I believe it has to do with…if Im a dog…then my mother is a dog since she gave birth to me etc…so that’s why it hits home so hard)

    Sorry for the long comment…but yours brought it to mind.

  182. @ Abdullah

    Hello.

  183. @bigstick, whenever I quickly glance at your avatar, I think it’s the flag of saudi arabia, lol!

  184. Earlier in this thread there was a comment about Americans doing business abroad for American companies. I’d like to point out that any American doing business abroad for an American company must abide by US law. I’m not denying corruption happens but if caught, the American and the American company will face steep penalties.

    I think Coolred gave very good advice to Gwendolyn. I believe no one should commit to any religion or faith without understanding the tenets of such faith or religion. Any commitment should be based on research, knowledge and the expectation that one will be faithful and follow the religion of choice.

    Many Non-muslim women convert to Islam because of involvement with a Saudi. However a lot convert based on an emotional need rather than a true commitment to the faith. They feel if they can say that are now Muslim a relationship with a Saudi will have a stronger chance of permanency.

  185. Coolred, I enjoyed your comment. Really glad you shared. Now I’ll really know how to get his goat! *evil laugh*

    (Oh shoot, did I use an animal in my idiom concerning an Arab?! Hahaha) :D

    Thanks for sharing!

  186. I think Islamophobia is an invented word, which describes something which doesn’t exist: a phobia is an irrational fear, and there is nothing irrational, but instead it is completely rational, to be being upset with a religion which openly threatens murder and sends out assassins to kill writers, thinkers, apostates and artists, whose clerics openly proclaim death to anybody who is not Muslim, whose followers openly proclaim their support for torture and murder on the media and on blogs such as this one.
    As in this despicable comment on American Bedu itself:

    http://americanbedu.com/2011/11/29/saudi-arabia-watch-out-for-the-haia-muttawa/#comment-76331

    No Muslims commenting on this blog had anything to say to this commentator and her vile convictions.

    I think the rational developed world is far to accommodating to this kind of behavior. I think it is time for a denouncement of such excrescences of evil. At a religion whose preachers and websites openly call for the murder of everybody who doesn’t belong to their part of religion. And whose ”moderate base” does not show any outrage towards these calls for murder, does not ever protest against the crimes to women, children, innocent people and those of another faith, done or threatened by their religious leaders and their minions.
    Phobia is the wrong word, any distrust of Islam is fully rational, it is the leniency currently given to Islam which is irrational and shortsighted.

  187. Another term that is coming of vogue lately is ISLAMOPHILIA disorder, opposite of Islamophobia disorder. What is Islamophilia? It is the irrational and self-destructive desire to show how enlightened and morally superior one is by bending over backwards to embrace the Islamic cause.

    BTW, true democracy can no more take hold in Islamic soil than a rose can grow in a glass vase … no matter how much water it contains. Many islamists know this to be a true statement but won’t admit it, at least publicly :)-

  188. Aafke-Art, said:

    “I think Islamophobia is an invented word, which describes something which doesn’t exist: a phobia is an irrational fear, and there is nothing irrational, but instead it is completely rational, to be being upset with a religion which openly threatens murder and sends out assassins to kill writers, thinkers, apostates and artists, whose clerics openly proclaim death to anybody who is not Muslim, whose followers openly proclaim their support for torture and murder on the media and on blogs such as this one…

    Phobia is the wrong word, any distrust of Islam is fully rational, it is the leniency currently given to Islam which is irrational and shortsighted.”

    That is what I have said for years and what I posted at the top of the thread.

    What I find the most disturbing is the constant demand for others to understand Islam, the claims that all people are ignorant of Islam who point out problems, (including Muslims themselves) and the insistence that it is up to others to win the hearts and minds of Muslims.

    Many people completely reject all of the above. By now, many nonMuslims have studied and learned enough about Islam and its history to know what it is all about. It is the so-called “moderate” Muslims who seem to misunderstand Islam. Ignoring the supremacist, world domination mandates is considered apostasy by the hard liners—those who behave as did Muhammad.

    It is dismaying that Muslims only export and show the world negativity. There is rarely an exhibition or cultural exchange of the positives in Islamic life. Highlighting the “miracle” of Islam that is traveling the world these days is not particularly positive since it only revolves around religion and the mythical Islamic “golden age” that never was. Where are current, modern exhibits of art, music, food, culture, technology, science and other accomplishments by Muslims today?

    All that the world ever sees coming from Islam is murder, mayhem, discrimination, subjugation and negativity—while blaming others for those. Is it any wonder that the views of Islam and Muslims continue to go down, down, down with every new poll?

    Again I say, it is up to Muslims to win hearts and minds, not vice versa!

  189. I’ve got to admit that the most recent fatwas do not put Islam in a positive light at all.

  190. Speaking of Fatwas’ what is up with them in Islam. Can anyone decree a fatwas? If not then who and why do they do it. Are they trying to clear up a confusion on a subject? In Christianity we have scripture. We have people who try to take it out of context and put a different meaning behind it. We are suppose to inturpet scripture with scripture. Our lens in understanding it is scripture itself.

  191. @blooming in the sand;

    Apparently muslim men are so weak they fear even produce. I can’t wait to see if a fatwa comes out that men cannot eat tacos or look at camel toes.

  192. @blooming in the sand,

    Fatwas are issued by religious scholars/immams. Muslims can accept them or reject them depending on the position of the scholar. The more respected the more people will accept it. There is a difference between Suni and Shiiat in this.

    Shiiat are very structured. There is a hierarchy of clergy similar to what you have in Catholicism. A scholar moves up the hierarchy through research and writings. At the top level you have the Ayatolahs (very few of those geezers exist). So the higher the rank the more likely the Fatwah will be accepted.

    Suni Muslims do not have specific ranks. Although, there are institutions and affiliations. Scholars can also be entrepreneurial and achieve fame through TV programs. This is similar to evangelicals in the US. So a fatwah issued by a sunni scholar could reach as many people as his affiliations and/or fame allows.

    Note you also may have some scholars with few radical followers who can have direct influence (think David Koresh here for comparison).

  193. @ Bigstick: That fatwa over the produce lol is totally false. People can say anything over the internet….

  194. For argument’s sake, let’s accept it was a fake fatwa, what does it mean for the reputation of Islam that nobody is surprised at a fatwa like ”Women cannot handle vegetables which may look like penisses”?
    After all, the real fatwas include stuff like women breastfeeding men in the workplace.
    Just saying, there seems to be nothing which is too ridiculous, or sexually obsessed, for a bona fide religious fatwa.

  195. @Amal:

    Sarcasam is lost on you.

    More sarcasam – did you know that you have earthquake power. Who knows maybe you should unleash some of that.

  196. Note that this week the US State Department has began a three-day, closed-door meeting about U.S. free speech rules with representatives from numerous Islamic governments that have lobbied for 12 years to end U.S. citizens’ ability to speak freely about Islam’s history, teaching and practice.

    The idea being considered is that if the US government curbs public criticism of Islam, the OIC (Organization for Islamic Cooperation, a group that unites about 57 Muslim countries) will then promise to accept freedom of speech and religion.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-turley-blasphemy-20111210,0,3248209.story

    Quote: The OIC has hit on a winning strategy to get Western countries to break away from their commitment to free speech by repackaging blasphemy as hate speech and free speech as the manifestation of “intolerance.”

    So if one criticizes Islam or Muslims, it is “hate speech”.

    How can we foster mutual understanding and co-existence under these conditions? Muslims want us to give up our fundamental rights just so they don’t have to hear things that offend them, even things that are true and cause untold misery.

    This transcends religion. If we don’t have free speech, we have nothing.

    This means that more than a dozen people that have commented on this post would be categorized as criminals and subject to trial, condemnation, incarceration and even death. I suppose this will: 1. make you Muslims are happy, and 2. solve all the problems in this world.

    Harry and Lynn (the most raucous by far) will probably be the first to go, followed by Prosciutto, MoQ and Bigstick (less gruff but still no push-overs). AA will probably get off for being so nice and sweet. Red, Rad and I will mix up a mean batch of spirits and tell them (you know who) where they can stick their rules, just before the curtain falls. Carol, the enabler of all this evil, will be fine. Nobody messes with a saint.

  197. Jay:

    I do not believe we will be alone. Large numbers of Americans will follow, along with a whole lot of british, canadians, etc.

    Blasphemy laws are the pathway to darkness. It’s henchmen the gatekeepers of hell. It’s destination is the dark ages. Kept in place by the rules of inquisition.

    So sayeth bigstick.

  198. anne barnhardt will be very disappointed if such a ruling is passed.

  199. @ American Bedu

    Not familiar with Anne Barnhardt. I guess I will have to do some research.

  200. “So sayeth bigstick”
    is the lite, uncomplicated version of
    “Thus Spoke Zarathustra”
    In any case, you, too, are a prophet.
    Also, I might add, Nietzsche would be appropriate here in this discussion given his rather unique take on fundamental issues at play (at work, at heart, at mind) on this matter. I once wrote a paper on N; it was fun but not as much as the college paper on the “Canine Element in Shakespeare”. Those were the days, my friend. Cry Havoc, and let slip the dogs of war; That this foul deed shall smell above the earth. With carrion men, groaning for burial.

  201. Maybe if there were enough of us, we could have a party.

  202. Didn’t know who AB, I mean Anne Barnhardt, was. Had to Google her.

  203. Check you tube

  204. Jay:

    I am in are you bring a keg or Shakespeare. Not sure I know which one will be entertaining. I too am a fan of Shakespeare.

    @AB

    Too funny bacon and the koran.

  205. @bigstick – you do fast research. For obvious reasons, I will not do an article of her on my blog.

  206. @Jay

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche/

    “Nietzsche, having by this time absorbed the German romanticist, and specifically Schopenhauerian, view that non-rational forces reside at the foundation of all creativity and of reality itself, identifies a strongly instinctual, wild, amoral, “Dionysian” energy within pre-Socratic Greek culture as an essentially creative and healthy force. Surveying the history of Western culture since the time of the Greeks, Nietzsche laments over how this Dionysian, creative energy had been submerged and weakened as it became overshadowed by the “Apollonian” forces of logical order and stiff sobriety. He concludes that European culture since the time of Socrates has remained one-sidedly Apollonian, bottled-up, and relatively unhealthy.”

    I like this view a lot. I have never read, ““Thus Spoke Zarathustra.”

    I believe very soon I will be finding myself a nice cozy spot for a little reading time. Thanks.

  207. @Jay – ‘Harry and Lynn (the most raucous by far) will probably be the first to go’

    Have you LOST your FREAKIN’ mind man?!!? LOL I think you are a little confused Aafke and MoQ would be the very first to go. They have NO tolerance for ANYthing religious where I actually get accused of defending religion at times. However, there is NO doubt that I would be in serious trouble but I’d be with y’all guzzling down that mean batch of spirits as fast as you can mix it while egging you on on where to tell them to stick it ;-)

    Hey, we need your Brazilian expertise over on the Where is Allah post.

  208. It looks like Canada has the right idea:

    Canada bans veils at citizenship oath ceremony

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16152122

    Why do Muslims show so much disrespect to nonMuslim cultures? The veil is at once discriminatory and a supremacist-political statement. It does not belong in any democratic country! Many a terrorist has dressed himself in veils.

  209. @Prosciutto – That’s good to see.

  210. “I think you are a little confused Aafke and MoQ would be the very first to go. ”

    WOW First place!!!! What do I win ;)

  211. @MoQ

    ?? 72 virgins???

  212. @bigstick,

    No I am not going to be fooled by that. After a little research, I discovered I will only get one of these

  213. @ MoQ

    What is that not enough for you??????? (HAHAHAHAHAH)

  214. BigStick,

    At one time (about 1970-1972) Schopenhauer was my favorite philosopher. I liked his work because of the importance he gave to the need of “balance” in life (that and his cynical pessimism, of course). A life without balance – work and play, formal and informal, order and anarchy, happiness and sorrow, good and, yes, bad – is a life not lived. So much of what is wrong in this world is because people lack balance – and common sense.

    Nietzsche is kinda like Joyce – important, but nobody really reads them. I once had a lit teacher that said, frankly, not to waste time trying to read Ulysses. Actually they both make better discussion subjects than reading material.

    Now Shakespeare is different. He rocks. In fact you haven’t lived unless you have sat around a campfire and listen to some drunk girls try to recite the witches chant from Macbeth over a pot of stew. If I remember correctly they got about 4 lines correct and made up the rest, but was fun. Drunk girls are always fun.

    Round about the cauldron go:
    In the poison entrails throw.
    Toad, that under cold stone
    Days and nights has thirty-one
    Sweated venom sleeping got,
    Boil thou first in the charmed pot.
    Double, double toil and trouble;
    Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

    Fillet of a fenny snake,
    In the cauldron boil and bake;
    Eye of newt and toe of frog,
    Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
    Adder’s fork and blindworm’s sting,
    Lizard’s leg and howlet’s wing.
    For charm of powerful trouble,
    Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
    Double, double toil and trouble;
    Fire burn and couldron bubble.

    Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf,
    Witch’s mummy, maw and gulf
    Of the ravin’d salt-sea shark,
    Root of hemlock digged in the dark,
    Liver of blaspheming Jew;
    Gall of goat; and slips of yew
    silvered in the moon’s eclipse;
    Nose of Turk, and Tartar’s lips;
    Finger of birth-strangled babe
    Ditch-delivered by the drab,-
    Make the gruel thick and slab:
    Add there to a tiger’s chaudron,
    For ingredients of our cauldron.
    Double, double toil and trouble,
    Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

    It really doesn’t sound like gourmet cooking to me.

  215. MoQ,

    You didn’t read the label!!!!!! It says “Plumper and Moister” How could you refuse plump and moist?

  216. @ Jay

    It sounds like fun was had by one and all. Better watch out the Saudi witch trials are in full force. Move over salem you have some competition.

  217. @MoQ

    Funny and it comes with a gold seal of approval. (HAHAHAHAHAHA).

  218. @Jay

    So were you a Literature major?

    By the second comment was a dig at Saudi as my sacastic way of saying they suck.

  219. Working Moms Are Happier And Healthier

    “A report published by The American Psychological Association shows that mothers who maintain their jobs while their children are in infancy and pre-school years are happier and healthier than their more traditional stay at home peers…

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/239140.php

    There is nothing like being a productive professional and a mother as well.

    @Jay, If I were to be marooned on a desert Island I would want the full collection of Shakespeare. Therein are all the answers to every human condition. Much better than any religious volume.

  220. Sorry for the very late replies, but my life has been very busy the last few weeks. To answer a few questions, I will first copy and paste the conversation so people know what comments I am replying to:

    I (StrangeOne) said: “Sorry all but I don’t have time to read through all the comments at the moment. Just wanted to say that the funny thing about this blog topic is that many times, I find I have more in common with my “Eastern” Muslim friends than I do with those “Western” non-Muslim friends.
    My “Eastern” Muslim significant other and I have more in common than I would with many people who are very “Western” non-Muslim (which is the category I’d be lumped into even though I am a mix of Eastern and Western ideas and culture myself- though I am an American through and through).”

    Bigstick said: “@StrangeOne:
    Why is that, could you explain further the differences?”

    @Bigstick: I am not sure what you are referring to by this question? Sorry.

    One of the main things I seem to have more in common with “eastern” friends is that family is more interdependent on each other rather than being more independent of each other (which people tend to think of as being a “western” thing; I don’t know why).

    Oby said: “Strange One..
    You don’t have to answer this, but I thought you and your significant other had parted ways in large part due to differences in religion. Maybe I am thinking of someone else, or is this a different muslim significant other. Not prying just trying to keep histories of regulars straight.”

    Oby, it’s okay. My dating history the last couple years is a bit blurred (though very short). It so happens that I parted with the Saudi male I had been dating. I am currently (for the past couple of months) in a relationship with another Arab (non-Saudi) Muslim man. This is the man I intend to spend the rest of my life with because I enjoy my time spent with him and because I love him very much. His family is okay with me being non-Muslim, and I have met them and spoken with them already. My family likes my significant other, too. There are things I don’t want to share about my relationship for privacy reasons, but he makes me very happy. The irony of the situation is that I met my current significant other the very day I felt confident and content with my decision to stay single. I honestly wasn’t intending to date anyone again for a very, very long time. Then, I guess you could say I found this man of mine very interesting (not to mention very sweet), curiosity got the best of me, and now we are very happy together. Plus, he treats me extremely well. I knew within a month that this was the man I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. Sounds crazy, but it’s true.

  221. *and IS the man I want to spend my life with, too. ;)

  222. @Strange One

    My “Eastern” Muslim significant other and I have more in common than I would with many people who are very “Western” non-Muslim (which is the category I’d be lumped into even though I am a mix of Eastern and Western ideas and culture myself- though I am an American through and through).”

    Bigstick said: “@StrangeOne:
    Why is that, could you explain further the differences?”

    It was on why you felt more in common with Eastern Muslims vs. Western Non-Muslims.

    I think you answered it with the family dynamics.

  223. Carol – This is why I LOVE (and so dearly miss) blogging! A great mix of thoughts and opinions and passions – and I’m going to add my little bit to it :-) The only things I know about Islam I have learned over the last eight years of living in Saudi Arabia – the self-proclaimed cradle of Islam, the place where zillions of Muslims mandatorily travel to, worship toward and pine for as the ultimate living example of pure Islam in action. I don’t know anything about American Muslims other than what I hear about them here – that they are somehow less, a fallen people who have been sucked up by Westernization and need to get back to the mother ship.

    When I first got here, I was convinced we all had more in common than we had at odds, and for awhile that worked. But not for long. I quickly learned that the so-called “American Dream” is vastly different than the dreams here.

    I wanted my son to grow up to be a man of integrity, a faithful husband and cherishing father, not a man with moral values that changed with geography or carried a price tag, nor a husband always on the prowl for a new wife, nor a father who believed his daughters were chattel he could sell or barter away, and his sons needed to be beaten in order to toughen them up.

    I wanted my daughter to grow up independent not dependent, to be a whole person not an invisible being hidden from view. I wanted her to have every opportunity in the world, to reach for the stars rather than settle for leftovers at her feet.

    I wanted both my children to think and to explore the world around them, to experiment , to fail and to learn to make good decisions on their own, not to learn life by rote, to see thinking and logic and change as dangerous ideas which must be destroyed.

    I believed in freedom and equality, in independence and hard work, in personal accountability and living by a moral compass that lives inside each person. For the most part, few locals I encountered here had or even understood those same values.

    I believed in a loving, compassionate, forgiving, approachable and unchanging God, and his Son, Jesus Christ, a wholly divine and wholly human role model who lived a life free of sin and sacrificed that life for me, not a moody god or a merchant-cum-warrior-cum-prophet who lived a life of celebrated sin and debauchery. I said, “God’s will be done” not “God willing”.

    And ultimately, I wanted to pray for my enemies, not massacre them.

    The more I looked around, the more I peeled back the excuses (its tribalism not Islam, it’s culture not Islam, it’s socioeconomics, or education or ignorance or fill-in-the-blank not Islam), the more I realized that the differences between “us” and “them” are profoundly fundamental and foundational and defining, and should not be discounted or denied.

    Am I afraid of Muslims? Not at all. As my husband is fond of saying, “One out of 10 fish in every ocean is a shark.” But I also don’t buy into the idea that we are all the same and that our differences don’t matter. They do matter, and, it’s been my experience that they should.

  224. @Sand in my Eyes

    Here is an article on just what you have stated. I posted it earlier.

    http://www.meforum.org/1813/the-middle-easts-tribal-dna

    You might find it interesting.

  225. @Sand Gets in my Eyes:

    ” I don’t know anything about American Muslims other than what I hear about them here – that they are somehow less, a fallen people who have been sucked up by Westernization and need to get back to the mother ship.”

    I have always found that those who are the most insecure, try very hard to hide it in superiority. Superiority has a great tendency of being destructive. I will actually go out on the limb and say almost all of us are guilty of this at one point (probably more) and it is human.

    Maturity is to recognize that we do this, it’s effects on others, and then to correct it.

    Just a point to ponder.

  226. Is it islamophobia or is it just that we have grow past this point in our cultural development. In accepting the tenets of a religion on this level sends us backwards to a place where the West has been and quite frankly does not want to go back to. I tend to think of it as asking an adult to go back to live with their parents and be treated as a child. It is just not going to work. To me many tenets of religion are childlike and I have grown up and moved on. I have no intention of going back. I am all for embracing other cultures when it is beneficial but I will not embrace certain practices that are detrimental to myself, my family or my society. It is high time we stop this nonsense. We in the west have live through our inquisitions, our witch trials, racism, sexism, homophobias, and quite frankly I resent any religion or culture that expects me to go back to any of that. The west would be a fool to accept this as we have come too far; it would be a shame to turn around and go back. Does the west need to work on more yes they do. Have they made their mistakes, yes they have. Let us not allow culture observance or respect to influence us in a negative manner. We can acknowledge that this is your culture but quite frankly we don’t have to accept it. We need to be adult enough to say we have live through this and we will not go back again. We have grown up and experienced that this just doesn’t work. Now have your temper tantrums all you want but we won’t accept destructive behavior to an individual, our community or our society.

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