Saudi Arabia: Rights are Different in America

I would not call Saudi Arabia a police society.  However, I will say that the police, Muttawa and other security officials have broader range on the actions or questions that can be asked of both Saudi and non-Saudi citizens.  For the Saudis, there is both a respect and a fear of officials.  The popular show Tash ma Tash has had examples of misunderstandings with officials.  While Tash ma Tash depicts misunderstandings in a comedic way, such encounters are usually anything but funny.

As a result, many Saudis may cower to the officials.  A corrupt official may take advantage of this.

When a Saudi comes to America for the first time he will likely have respect and fear for security officials.  Some security organizations may take advantage of this cultural trait.  A security organization may knock on a Saudi’s door stating they’d simply like to talk to the Saudi and learn more about their culture and Islam.  Most Saudis will allow the official entry to their residence and answer the questions never realizing that they have a choice.  If an official contacts a Saudi without a legal warrant then the Saudi has every right to decline answering any questions.  There is no obligation or law requiring him or her to do so.

A law abiding Saudi is entitled to privacy and freedom of choice of who he or she speaks to.

Let’s face it, once a Saudi starts talking to an official, it is likely only a matter of time that questions would become more detailed, specific and focused.  Now if a Saudi wants to talk about his friends and contacts and observations within a mosque for example, then that is his choice.  But again, there is not an obligation.  It is a choice.

If an official tries to pressure a Saudi to talk about specific subjects during a “friendly visit” a Saudi has every right to ask that official to leave.  The Saudi can then notify local authorities and the Saudi embassy about the incident.

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151 Responses

  1. The problem lies in WHOM is going to inform the SAUDI of all of these rights?!

  2. First of all what kinda “security organisations” do u guys have in america that can come into ure home and ask u questions about random stuff without telling ppl about their rights first.. knowing that they may not know?..sounds dodgy to me .??..is that only cos he is of Saudi nationality or do they do this with all international students? kinda confused…

    “Now if a Saudi wants to talk about his friends and contacts and observations within a mosque for example”.
    …if one should know anything about a Saudi its that they are super private. Sure there is the naive student here and there that will talk about saudi culture or Islam or random general things to anyone but that doesn’t mean they will open up about anything super private to them such as friends/family.
    Saudis should be warned

  3. Bella, right now HOMELAND SECURITY (thanks to “9/11″) would most likely be the first to sign up for this one. You know, EEEEVERYBODY is a “potential threat” that fits their profile. Why would they tell them their rights? I would think that would the deal breaker right there. If you inform the poor Saudi that he doesn’t HAVE to comply, then, what the hell are you doing there and how do you plan to get your information?

    Plan B.

  4. LOL tru that… i was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt..but oh well

  5. well ,i guess the american police is far better than saudi police ,where i heard they put you in jail and forget (without even saying the reason or informig any one).
    You will only be not questioned when you are an arab or a saudi isnt it unfair?

    As far as american police taking advantage of arabs well they will learn in no time what rights does amreican constitution gives them which is not hidden and is in english which arabs can read unlike arabia where the only justice is justice for an arab. At least the system is transperant there.

  6. Re: The problem lies in WHOM is going to inform the SAUDI of all of these rights?!

    Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood-sponsored CAIR and local imams do a terrific job of “educating” saudis and other muslims not to cooperate with DHS, FBI, etc …. even when they know of terrorists among them.

    Muslims are taught/educated, at a very early age, that their first loyalty and patriotic duty is to the ummah and not to the infidel USA. It is taught in mosques, islamic schools/madrassas, and at All American Muslims homes.

  7. @HArry..”Muslims are taught/educated, at a very early age, that their first loyalty and patriotic duty is to the ummah ”
    Well Obviously…

  8. @ Harry Guggen

    We dont have any thing against any country untill it is agaisnt us .

    THIS IS SOME THING THE WEST CANT SEE OR THEY DONT WANT TO SEE WHAT WEST DOES IN THE EAST THAT BREEDS TERRORISM.

    Yes muslims are taught to defend their ummmah as america defends any of its citizen we feel the pain of our people and we resist and this doesnt goes well down the throat of americans ..

    America being the super power has all teh right to attack any country with out reason and give our land to any one and we shouldnt raise a voice if we do we are termed ” TERRORIST”.

    Terrorist for fighting for our land and our people and our rights .

    If there is any one a terrorist then its UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

    Goeroge w. Bush who invaded iraq and still people are being killed has never been punished of war crimes and lies . SO this is justice system if it serves your purpose then you are correct and it doesnt then we are terrorists, huh?

    Bilnd unjust people look at both sides of the coin before speaking .the armeican muslism are loyal to amreica as much as any nonmuslim amreican is .. you feel hurt when they brought down WTC ? THey too feel hurt when some muslim is killed .

    when the protest they are terrorist how unfair

  9. @ana.hindi…
    i totally agree with you

  10. @ ana hindi…

    While I can understand your sentiments…the idea that Muslims defend Muslims vs a country is problematic…since there are Muslims in every part of the world, and by your definition you would feel their pain and they need to be defended that potentially puts the Muslim world at risk for problems with every part of the planet. If you are defending a country that has defined borders then you can mentally limit your defense. But when you are worried about every Muslim in every country on earth then potentially everyone who is not Muslim in that country can be the enemy. That is quite different than limiting your defense or aggression to one country.

    Also…Muslim Americans are loyal to America but they are loyal to other muslims first whether they be American or not ( I think is what Harry was trying to say.) It wasn’t AMERICAN muslims who brought down the WTC. It was some radical NONamericans who did it. But your analogy is like saying that Christians the world over should be loyal to other Christians first before their country. Many Christians would put God before country like many muslims would, but Christians don’t have the “pack” mentality that Muslims do. So although many Christians would identify with other Christians around the world, they would not attack another country for their perceived slights that are done to Christians. Because for Christians, unlike Muslims, their faith is a personal thing. It is between them and God and they don’t feel the need to save the entire Christian world. National boundaries divide them. They don’t feel the need to attack another country on the basis of faith.

    As far as Bush and Iraq goes…don’t get me started!

  11. Ana,

    Quote: Yes muslims are taught to defend their ummmah as america defends any of its citizen we feel the pain of our people and we resist and this doesnt goes well down the throat of americans ..

    Defend? You say ‘defend”. In case you have not read the Quran and hadith, Islam is about attacking others. Of course, any criticism of, any resistance to you, your god, your Mohammad, is viewed as an aggression against Islam. Get real. How about the pain that Islam inflicts on others?

    By the way, why do your criticize Bush yet defend Islam, and by implication, the wars and aggressions of Mohammad? As far as I know, infidels don’t say “Praise be upon him” after the name of GWB.

    May I requote: Mohammad, who invaded neighboring villages and still people are being killed has never been punished of war crimes and lies.

    I guess a few words about throwing stones and glass houses would be appropriate here.

    I do believe that Muslims can be loyal citizens of this country and country – with one caveat: A Muslim must be committed to the principles of equality, freedom of expression, freedom of belief and understand that religious dogma and law have no place in the public domain.

    Oh yes, welcome to American Bedu.

  12. @jay – ‘May I requote: Mohammad, who invaded neighboring villages and still people are being killed has never been punished of war crimes and lies.’

    Hear, hear!

  13. Now, Lynn, even you have to know that however you interpret events surrounding the prophet, he was a prophet, so he had “prophet” rules to follow AND exceptions were made. Being considered a war criminal would NEVER do, not even today.

  14. Robin – You should talk to Jay about it since they were HIS words. I just agree with him ;-) BUT, some would say that the President of the United States of America is ALSO entitled to ‘exceptions’ as he has presidential rules to follow and the WHOLE freakin’ world seems to look at him for answers to their problems. No? Then leave us the HELL alone and quit acting as if the US has some kind of obligation to ensure that the world does not starve or get mistreated by tyrants. I say ‘you made your bed, LIE in it or remake it!’

  15. I also find it extremely interesting that so many people embraced Islam, thanks to GWB, himself!

    He (unwittingly, as usual) spoke out so much against Islam, that people who had never heard of it (yes, there are some) actually became curious as to what all this “war on terrorism” (READ: Islam) was. With all the available resources, all that information was just a click away, right? Lots of people turn to religion in times of grief. In a nutshell, people were turning to Islam in droves.

    There are conflicting stats ranging from 34,000 to 1.5 million since 9/11 – and that was a CNN report that was posted in 2007.

  16. Speak for yourself. I am not of those that believe the U.S. is supposed to solve the world’s problems, but it is the government that presents itself in that light?

    They were not invited to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and many other countries, but there they are, trying to tell them how “it’s done.”

  17. Hmmmmm. President. Prophet. President. Prophet. President. Prophet. Nope! Not seeing any commonality here.

  18. QJay
    Quote:” Defend? You say ‘defend”. In case you have not read the Quran and hadith, Islam is about attacking others. Of course, any criticism of, any resistance to you, your god, your Mohammad, is viewed as an aggression against Islam. Get real. How about the pain that Islam inflicts on others?”

    ISLAM is PEACE and there is no doubt in it “, dont blame islam if you fail to understand it . Quraan states that killing a innocent is like killing whole of humanity and again it states killing an innocent has a punishemnt of death .. who will dare to kill any innoent islam is there to protect .

    ” resistance to you, your God , your mohammed” — Any one loves their survival why will you resist us why will you speak agaisnt any religion who gave you right to do so NONE . pain islam inflicts ? well you hurt our feeling we kill you we our love our religion more than any thing insha allah .
    “May I requote: Mohammad, who invaded neighboring villages and still people are being killed has never been punished of war crimes and lies.”

    worng information you never read the history of islam muhamemd peace be on him never attacked unless and until he was under attack or islam was under attack and well whole of saudi arabi is MUSLIM the ones that opposed muhammed and were the leaders of opposition to muhammed accepted islam . and well there is none to acuse muhammed of invading any where but every one sends supplications of peace on muhammed ..

    you will soon be worshiping bush no wonder when you can hang your god on cross and whish he died for your sins you will start worshiping bush soon….

    Yes muslism have to be loyal and pay tax of the country they live in but muslims cant support america when it is backing up the terrorist isreal in killing their fellow brotherene .. who have been mad home less and land less .

  19. I do think being a prophet means you have exceptional rules to follow. You really should be better than everybody else.
    Sneak attacks on peaceful villages, genocide, Nazi style executions, enslavement, sending out assassins, rape, suppression, and taking away women’s rights, are definitely not the acts of a prophet coming from a loving peaceful god.

    Anybody involved in even one of those activities cannot, by definition, be the prophet of a loving and peaceful god.

    On the other hand, if the god they have invented is indeed mean, selfish, insecure, and a misogynist sadist, then yes, those would be proper actions by his prophet. But I don’t see why modern, more civilized and morally superior people would want to follow such a nasty combination of divinity and prophet.

  20. @Robin – ‘Speak for yourself. I am not of those that believe the U.S. is supposed to solve the world’s problems’

    And you can also speak for YOUR self when you say that the ‘prophet’ was exempt from being considered a war criminal. No?

    I was NEVER a fan of either of the Bush presidents but that doesn’t mean that you are right to spread lies about them. Where is the proof that he EVER said anything derogatory about Islam? But anyway, even if he did, that does not EVEN compare to taking someone’s LIFE as your ‘prophet’ did just because people refused to believe in his religion. But seriously, just show me ONE quote where he spoke out against Islam. I’ll wait…

  21. ‘President. Prophet. President. Prophet. President. Prophet. Nope! Not seeing any commonality here.’

    Now THERE’S something to be thankful for, eh?

  22. ‘Yes muslism have to be loyal and pay tax of the country they live in but muslims cant support america when it is backing up the terrorist isreal in killing their fellow brotherene .. who have been mad home less and land less’

    But paying taxes to the ‘Great Satan’ that may very well end up paying for bombs that kill your Muslim brethren? Not a chance in HELL would I do that if I felt like you. I think that any Muslim that believes as you do has an OBLIGATION to the Ummah to get the HELL out of the U.S. so that they don’t unwittingly support the killing of their brethren. As a matter of fact, I think that they should all move to one of those countries that is falling apart or starving or filled with depressed repressed people due to it’s support of Islam and selfish Islamist rulers and support them so that I never again have to hear ‘Where was America?’ What is the U.S. doing to help?’

  23. ‘They were not invited to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and many other countries, but there they are, trying to tell them how “it’s done.”’

    Yeah, we weren’t ‘invited’ to Japan either but we went, oh yes, we WENT alright and today they (and the rest of the world) are much better off for it! Oh the world should be joyous that MY impatient finger does not have access to the ‘button’.

  24. Lynn

    sadly you are un aware iraq is more worse place now , even it was better whith the 10 years of universial sanctions from the UN and yes afghan is a never ending story that .

    and well america has now new thing to fight because of its rrogance the RECESSION all the best

    and pakistan is same as it was nothing has changed nor osamas death nor americas increase in troops ….

    you people are living in a mirrage the world .

    There were many big empires on earth that survived for years alas!! they lay in ruins now , whats america !!!

  25. Bush wasn’t directly speaking against Islam per se. He really couldn’t do that being President. But, once the war on terrorism (WOT) was announced, people connected it with the religion of the 9/11 attackers, and the media was more than a supporting cast member! That was pretty much the focus. It was a circus of people for, against, and defending Islam. 24/7. Even though Bush hadn’t named Islam, he sure made a lot of statements, again, it was all in the interpretation.

    Just as the way you interpret the prophet’s actions;)

  26. Lynn

    Chillax you will never get the button , its people llike you who make the world a worse place to live ….

    who never use brain but are moved by desires and emotions

  27. Do you guys even see the same news we do here in this part of the world?

  28. ‘sadly you are un aware iraq is more worse place now ‘

    I guess that depends on who you are talking to, no? BUT, still, you can’t compare any of these other wars with Japan during WWII since they don’t end the same which is EXACTLY my point.

  29. ‘Bush wasn’t directly speaking against Islam per se. He really couldn’t do that being President. ‘

    So, then I guess you should quit going around saying ridiculous things like that. Eh? :-)

  30. To get another perspective on “islam” and “Mohammed”, here is a very instructive website:

    http://prophetofdoom.net/

  31. @ana – You can chillax, because I don’t CARE enough to want control of the button. :-)

  32. Yeah, we weren’t ‘invited’ to Japan either but we went, oh yes, we WENT alright and today they (and the rest of the world) are much better off for it! Oh the world should be joyous that MY impatient finger does not have access to the ‘button’.

    Lynn, you might want to yell that at the 70,000 peole that were killed when the U.S. dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima. UNINVITED. Tell it to the ones that were victims of radiation. Another 70,000. UNINVITED.

    Iraqis – and the American military stationed there – are still waiting for the US to get out of there. They were UNinvited.

  33. @Robin – ‘I also find it extremely interesting that so many people embraced Islam, thanks to GWB, himself!’

    Too funny how you want to go and give all the credit to GWB himself when Osama bin Laden DIED for that credit to be given to him (since he started it). That is not fair that you would want to deprive him of the extra points in Jannah for bringing in ‘reverts’. Dude, you really suck as a friend.

  34. Of course, you omitted the rest of that comment. Conveeenient.

  35. I don’t agree that OBL died for that, but if you are of THAT persuasion, consider yourself among the ignorant.

    Yes, our own GDubya. Dontcha love it?

  36. I’m right there with ALL those who are ready for our service members to get home and out of harms way. If I had my way there would be NO American soldiers fighting for anyone other than their fellow Americans.

  37. Robin, where can I sign up for “Prophet” rules? Actually, I would be happy just with “poor old man” rules that would let me draw money from a bank without all those silly “you have to have money in your account” rules.

    Rules are the bane of our existence! Ever since I was about two I have been fighting rules. It is a good thing that Carol has no “Thou shalt not criticize a certain religion” rule, or maybe she just has a “I respect your right to say what you think” rule.

    One of the problems that I have seen with (some but not all) Muslims here is the lack of the ‘give and take’ debate that is so common in the West. I think it is a lack of habit, maybe, because of the “thou shalt not criticize Islam” rule that prevails in Islamic communities. They are not used to objective, factual, link-referenced criticism of their prophet. texts or religion. Either that, or maybe it is that Muslims are the most egoistic, self-centered people in the world and what they do or how they treat others is of no concern.

    Criticism and self-reflection are the two basic ingredients for change.

  38. @Robin

    No one keeps any statistics on how many convert to Islam. So there is no such thing as reliable conversion numbers. Not to mention that any conversion numbers, if they did exist, would be meaningless anyway.

    @Ana Hindi

    Most violence in the Muslim-majority world is internal. Without commenting on the American aggression, the fact of sizable Muslim-on-Muslim conflict belies your assertion of Muslim unity and telepathic pain they feel for each other. Muslims support other Muslims just like anyone else supports anyone else – until it works for them, and no further.

  39. I’ve always thought that rules are basically to determine what’s right(acceptable) and wrong(unacceptable).

    ALL valid prophets were exceptions in one way or another. Yes?

    Criticism and self-reflection are the 2 basic for change. Absolutely!

  40. @Jay – ‘Either that, or maybe it is that Muslims are the most egoistic, self-centered people in the world and what they do or how they treat others is of no concern.’

    That HAS been my experience! LOL

  41. Actually, NN, there ARE statistics, but they run the range. Look it up!

    Why would they be meaningless? On the contrary, it would mean a lot!

  42. @Robin – ‘ALL valid prophets were exceptions in one way or another. Yes?’

    Examples?

  43. @Lynn

    I usually respect your opinions but I must take issue with your comment re: Japan. The U.S. inflicted terrible suffering on the people of Japan, indiscriminate suffering that affected men, women, children and elderly alike. Yes, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and it was wrong, but making thousands of Japanese babies die and get lifelong sickness for years after the attack through exposure to radiation is wrong too. Two armies can duke it out amongst themselves all they want, but leave civilians out of this, and the U.S. didn’t. You are speaking too lightly of a violent attack on the entire people without discriminating between civilians and the army.

    Did you know that the U.S. did not even allow publication of any photographs of destruction visited on Japan until several years after the bomb?

  44. Perhaps a more appropriate title for this post would be

    Saudi Arabia: Rights EXIST in America. ;-)

  45. NO examples for you, Lynn. You know what it means.

  46. @NN – I am not speaking to the ‘morality’ of how that war ended just that it WORKED. How do we even begin to know the numbers of lives that were saved by putting an end to that war?

  47. @Robin

    People who convert to Islam do not usually go to National New Muslim Centers (sarcasm on) to register and get membership cards. There is no national, or international database where mosques report new conversions. Who would even compile these numbers? Any conversion estimates you see are guesses. Nothing more.

    The reasons these numbers, if they existed, which they don’t, are meaningless is because conversion to a religion is a lifelong process. Counting converts is like counting people who make New Year’s resolutions to lose weight and selling these numbers as people with healthy weight. Follow up with them ten years later and see who can still fit into size four. Likewise, follow up with converts ten years from today and see who’s still fasting. My guess is that there will be a big difference between the two numbers. Ergo, reporting numbers of recent converts means nothing.

    Plus, you’d have to count all the people who leave the religion, too. Not even going there.

  48. @Robin – ‘NO examples for you, Lynn. You know what it means.’

    Yes, I DO know what it means. It means that Robin was once again stomped on for again attempting to sound intelligent while speaking Sloganese Gibberish. Please, you spent 12 years in Catholic school you should be able to come up with SOMEthing to support your statement. Please? ;-)

  49. @Lynn

    “It was immoral but it worked” is the same argument as “the end justifies the means.” The civilized world usually frowns on that one. If I put a gun to your head, I can make you do pretty much anything. How many lives were saved is a guess. How many people died in Japan is a statistics. Sorry, not buying this one, and don’t believe that you do, either.

  50. @NN – ‘ Follow up with them ten years later and see who can still fit into size four. Likewise, follow up with converts ten years from today and see who’s still fasting.’

    Or alive and not in PRISON where I see one of those new ‘reverts’ again just found himself in NYC for trying to emulate his ‘prophet’ by causing death and destruction.

  51. Lynn,
    Due to depleted uranium rounds being fired in countries such as Iraq, there are birth defects to this day in these countries because of the weapons American soldiers used. To make this even worse, the radiation also affected American soldiers. So although it’s not the same as Japan or Vietnam (where there are still birth defects to this day), innocent civilians were, have been, and are affected. Not all American soldiers treat the Iraqi people with respect, either. The total infrastructure in places like Iraq were completely demolished, which basically means that they had to completely rebuild their highways. A lot of innocent people died from bombings in the effort to remove Saddam from power.

    I’m not saying it was a bad decision to try to help the Iraqi people. I’m just saying that the US isn’t perfect, and neither is our military.

    I love the United States and am proud to be an American, but even I can admit that our government isn’t perfect. And don’t get me started on immigration laws, regulations, and procedures. America is supposed to be the land of the free and the brave. If people here want more security, then by all means move to England.

  52. “It was immoral but it worked” is the same argument as “the end justifies the means.”

    Yes, it is. And yes, sometimes the end DOES justify the means.

  53. Lynn,
    What if you were one of those affected by the “ends justifying the means”? You could just have easily been born in Afghanistan, Japan, or Iraq. Do you really care so little for your fellow human beings? Or are they less human to you if they aren’t American?

    I think any country that basically destroys another country for whatever reason has a right to the people of the country they destroyed to help rebuild it- which is what the US is trying to do.

  54. @Strangeone – I hope you are not trying to convince me that war is bad because I am WELL aware of that. I think that everyone should play nice and live in peace and leave us the HELL alone.

  55. I read this post and comments earlier. There were 4. Several hours later: 54 comments! Interesting conversation!

  56. i guess now Lynn willl even justify what hitler did and will say it worked and it was necessary and it was good for future ..

    I am waiting ….

    DOnt have double standards … come on

  57. @ana – No, but bombing the hell out of Germany to defeat him WAS even though many innocents MUST have died in the process. ;-). Funny you should bring up this particular man as my Muslim daughter WOULD say that he was a great man who should be admired for his great accomplishments and perseverance. At least that was what she said back when she was first learning to be a Muslim and trying to befriend Muslims.

  58. NN, sounds good (in print) to you, but, yes, Virginia, stats do exist.

    Conversion is NOT a lifelong process. You say your shahada, you’re converted.

  59. Oh, by the way, the image at the top of the post is from an old b-movie called “them” – I saw it a few years ago. It is about a group of aliens that infiltrate, live with and slowly come to dominate the human race. The aliens’ real faces (corpse-like) are only visible through special glasses.

    Is Carol trying to pull a fast one here on us?

  60. Ok, Robin, show us your stats. Don’t worry, I don’t really expect you to come up with them as you have YET to show proof of ANY of your wild claims. :-)

  61. @Jay – ‘The aliens’ real faces (corpse-like) are only visible through special glasses.’

    Hmmm, very interesting Jay, thanks for pointing out that ‘clue’. It all makes sense to me now. Thank goodness we have you to keep watch for us! lol

  62. you people should remember, west has ‘sympathy’ for us. And our leaders (religious or not) always make an entry point for those. It’s we short tempered blind people that do not have knowledge about real life chess game.

    America invented Al Qayeda when they were in need to weaken Soviet Union.
    They forced Pakistan to help while fighting with Al Qayeda and now its Pakistan to be defended soon.
    Lol a real life screen play writer. Oh yeah I love hollywood film also Lol from where they got the lesson on screen play writings….
    But I love the way they play with us, its a food of imagination. To guess How would their present step change the ‘east’ by the time.

    Now a Question, how many muslim country do own Nuclear bomb and how many of their bomb were blasted yet and did harm for the nature and human being? How many of muslim country produce light and heavy arms? From where the arms come to the ‘terrorist’? How many dollars are being spent in America for making those noisy violent guns?

  63. Look them up! Unlike some, I don’t feel the need to satisfy everything I say with “proof.” If you care that much, you do the research and then YOU can share.
    Call it what you want.

  64. robincks…If you dont feel the need to prove your comments…than don’t offer them up as proof…otherwise they are just your views. Your personal opinion about something is different than something based on fact…facts need to be supported to validate your claims…otherwise…just so much hooey.

    btw…(tangent) when I arrived in Bahrain in the late 80’s…Adolf Hitler was very much a hero among Arab/Muslims. I have lost count of the very real heated arguments I had with them over him…not to mention text books for schools also indicated he was a hero…or that the holocaust did not happen or was fabricated. This was only 25 years ago. The only answer they had as some sort of retaliation or excuse was…but you guys bombed Japan…yes we did…AFTER Hitler went on his little man little penis rampage and started global war. How they figure he was a hero still baffles me…which makes me wonder why they have issues with GWB in Iraq etc…I thought killing for ego was something they looked up to. ;)

  65. Like I said, call it what you want. ;)

    I’m good, thanks!

  66. Re: All American Muslim Reverts/Converts

    Mother of NY jihad bomb plotter … “My son was a normal American guy …. Then he became a Muslim and he changed”

    Muhammad Yusuf’s mother, Carmen Sosa, in an interview with NY Daily News, says he began changing when he converted to Islam and started reading the Qur’an. Her account here contradicts that of the unnamed New York authorities who said that he wasn’t very religious, and was a drinker and marijuana user.

    Wonder who knows him better: his mamma or some politically correct, compromised cop inside a willfully blind NYPD:)-

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/terror-suspect-jose-pimentel-mom-city-i-feel-bad-i-police-article-1.980715

  67. @lynn

    ‘”Funny you should bring up this particular man as my Muslim daughter WOULD say that he was a great man who should be admired for his great accomplishments and perseverance. At least that was what she said back when she was first learning to be a Muslim and trying to befriend Muslims.”

    strange lynn is still alive seems has a strong heart and escaped a cardiac arrest when heard the news of daughter reverting to islam …

    How do you live under one roof one is hitler and gainst islam and other is peaceful muslim. Well see the wonders of islam it finds place in people irrespective of boundries and cultures and skin color alhumdulillah

  68. @ana – ‘strange lynn is still alive seems has a strong heart and escaped a cardiac arrest when heard the news of daughter reverting to islam …’

    Yes, I DID manage to escape cardiac arrest. But that was probably because I was there, every step of the way and witnessed the transformation of my normal, intelligent yet socially inept 12 yr old daughter (perfect profile for a revert eh?). I tried to show her that she was an extremist and was making a mockery of these peaceful people (this was when I only knew other Muslims but hadn’t yet read the Quran). But of course wth did I know? I was just an infidel whose fault it was that she was going to go to hell (because I didn’t raise her Catholic – according to what she cried to me from hiding in her bedroom closet). Yes, I managed to keep a strong heart as she gave up everything that gave her peace, joy or a sense of accomplishment (her flute playing). She went from having aspirations to be ‘Dictator of the World to Sister-Wife of the Dictator of the World’. Oh yes, I managed to keep a strong heart but I also got a very good view of Islam and Muslims and their respect for the sanctity of non-Muslim families.

  69. Haha! you have all seen ”They live”!?! We are such nerds! It was a John Carpenter movie. Was it based on Stephen King’s ”The ten o’clock people”? It’s virtually the same story, but I like the nicotine twist in Stephen King’s story!

  70. No, I looked it up, it is based on ”8 o’ clock in the morning” by Ray Nelson.

  71. @Robin – ‘I don’t feel the need to satisfy everything I say with “proof.” ‘

    CLEARLY – if you did you would have to stop talking completely. ;-)

  72. Yep, it was THEY LIVE, not THEM! How silly of me two confuse the two.

  73. I’ve never seen (or heard of) that movie but I’ve just added it to my Netflix instant Queue for our next movie night. :-)

  74. OK, out of idle curiousity I looked up available stats on conversion to Islam. Having done that, I became even more convinced of my ability to predict things without knowing them. Pre-research, I thought all conversion stats would be bullshit. Post-research, I KNOW all conversion stats are bullshit.

    Behold, Exhibit 1 (NYT):

    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/22/national/22CONV.html?pagewanted=1

    “One expert estimates that 25,000 people a year become Muslims in this country; some clerics say they have seen conversion rates quadruple since Sept. 11. ”

    “One expert” estimates? “Some clerics” say? In the hierarchy of proof (where peer-reviewed numbers occupy top spots), this counts for: zero.

    Take this, New York Times:

    “This non-expert estimates that all conversion numbers are bullshit. Some American Bedu followers say she is right.”

    Behold, Exhibit 2 (Star-Telegram):

    http://www.islamfortoday.com/searchingamericans.htm

    “In converting to Islam, Sturm joined a growing number of Americans who switch to faiths that have been imported to the predominantly Christian United States.”

    No source, no nothing. Translation: I’m a lazy-arse reporter on a deadline and I’ll make things up without sources because they go with my story.

    Take this, Star-Telegram: “In voicing criticism over unfounded convert numbers, NN joins a growing number of American Bedu followers who can see through the bullshit they see in printed form.”

    Behold, Exhibit 3 (Sacramento Bee):

    http://www.islamawareness.net/Fastest/sacbeelocal01_20010701.html

    “In recent years, Americans of African, European, Southeast Asian, Latin American and American Indian descent have left their parents’ spiritual paths to follow Islam, a religion that includes more than 1 billion believers from nearly every country.”

    Note: no sources cited. Translation: see Star-Telegram above.

    Take this, Sacramento Bee: “In recent years, Muslims of African, European, Southeast Asian, Latin American and American Indian descent left their onetime religion to enjoy a lifetime of bacon, sexual freedom and Chateaux Neuf Du Pape, the diversions whose believers include billions in nearly every country, except those without good taste.” My bullshit is as good as yours.

    By all means, if you have actual statistics, do share. Otherwise, I do hope you see how utterly ridiculous is your statement that you don’t feel the need to prove anything you say.

  75. NN…that has to be the very best comment I have ever read on here. Period. :)

  76. LOL @ NN’s rewriting of the exhibits! :D

  77. And ah, my good friend Wikipedia with a voice of reason:

    “Statistics on religious adherence are difficult to gather and often contradictory; statistics for the change of religious adherence are even more so, requiring multiple surveys separated by many years using the same data gathering rules. This has only been achieved in rare cases, and then only for a particular country, such as the American Religious Identification Survey[2] in the USA, or census data from Australia[3] (which has included a voluntary religious question since 1911). Worldwide data are more difficult to gather than data on a particular country.

    Statistics for rates of conversion are the most difficult to gather and the least reliable as religious statistics in general are unreliable: they are often distorted by social taboos such as the ban on apostasy in Islam, sometimes amplified by governments and policies at social institutions like universities[4][5] or the reporting of commitments where the individual does not persist. This means that a lot of the data on growth of religions is derived from birth and immigration rates.

    There are a large number of people who self-identify themselves as associated to a specific religion, but who are not religiously active. If, for example, asked to choose between Christianity and other religions they would say they were Christians; if asked to choose between Christianity, other religions and “Not religious”, they would say “Not religious”. This may make categorization difficult.

    In countries with mandatory religions, official statistics will only reflect the official position of the government.”

    And don’t forget this gem now:

    “Note that it would be an argumentum ad populum fallacy to claim that being the “fastest growing religion” has any logical consequences about the truth of that religion.”

    For the Latin-challenged, that means “just ‘cuz lotsa people believe it, it don’t make it true.” Chest-thumpers, take note.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion

  78. Ah, Robin, you should not have asked me to look up conversion statistics. The results just keep on keepin’ on:

    “Conversion to Islam: Counting or Guessing?”

    http://www.straightstatistics.org/blog/2011/01/05/converts-islam-counting-or-guessing

    “A new report has suggested that there may be 100,000 white converts to Islam in the UK, and that people are converting at the rate of about 5,000 a year….The report, written for the charity Faith Matters by M.A. Kevin Brice of Swansea University, Secretary of the Muslims in Britain Research Network, says that there were 63,042 people of White British ethnicity who declared themselves to be Muslims in the 2001 Census, and that the number may since have risen to 100,000.

    Were all these original 63,042 converts? Sceptics suggest they included a lot of second-generation Muslims who regard themselves as British – as they are – and may also be white, if their parents hailed from Turkish Cyprus, Bosnia or Albania. So there is room for doubt.

    As for the recent rate of conversions, the report bases its guess on an almost implausibly small sample. A total of 259 Mosques in London were asked to provide data on the number of conversions, but only 10 per cent did so, and a quarter of those said they had no conversions. The rest (8 per cent of the total) claimed to be converting four or five people a year each.

    This was extrapolated (generously) to 1,400 conversions a year for London as a whole, to which another 1,000 were added for good measure because the count excluded the more evangelical of mosques where more conversions are said to be made. On the basis (unevidenced) that London is responsible for a third of all conversions, further extrapolation reached a figure of 5,200 (3 X 1,400 plus 1,000) a year for the UK.

    Counting conversions to Islam is very difficult. Even so, this particular estimate is much closer to guesswork than statistics.”

    “It must be stressed that the figure for converts since 2001 is an estimate only, and as such should not be given a high level of confidence.”

  79. Luckily the fastest rising group at least in the civilized part of the world right now is: Atheism!
    There is hope yet!

  80. NN,

    I echo Coolred’s comment “that has to be the very best comment I have ever read on here. Period.”

    Also, if one peruses through many of the muslim websites, one experiences hilarity about fake/outlandish claims about the rich and famous who have converted to islam. For example, Neil Armstrong who heard adhan/call to prayer immediately upon landing on the moon and shouted out his shahada. Other names one will find include Karen Armstrong, Jacques Cousteau, Michael Jackson (converted on his death bed), Sunita Williams, Will Smith, William of Orange, Napolean Bonaparte, Barack Obama and the list goes on.

    A sure sign of insecurity and very low personal self-esteem :)-

    Other religions don’t crow about every convert they manage to net. For example, you don’t see Buddhists gloating about Richard Gere, Orlando Bloom, Naomi Watts and many others who have converted to their religion. Unlike muslims, they don’t jam the youtube either.

    Have you ever stood outside a Hindu mandir or Buddhist temple or Sikh gurdawara in any Western country and watched the number of Westerners entering and leaving. Do the same at mosques. Try it. It will be educational.

    I, a very proud infidel, am not one bit jealous considering the many kind of people who are converting to Islam … ex-cons, former gang members etc …. and then using their former skills in waging global jihad and terrorism.

    Ever wondered why there are no Islamic religious leaders who are well-known AND revered around the world like the Dalai Lama, Bishop Tutu, the Pope, the Indian Swamis, and Women. You have or had Khomeini, Mullah Omar, Osama, Anwar Alwaki, and the Al Azhar and /Saudi Pakistani clerics with their quotable quotes on whose blood is allowed to flow. Ever wondered about that?

  81. THANKS, NN!! Sterling job!!

    I was wondering what your posts were about until I went back and read my comments and noticed that MY comments said there were statistics on conversions post 9/11. (forgot about that) And you fell for it?!! Now it’s MY turn to LOL!!

    Of course, you couldn’t ACCURATELY document something like that. It’s not like converts sign a convert registry for gifts.

    Now, we all know. I’m joining the club that is congratulating you on your research.

  82. Ana, I see you came back to post a few more comments.

    I see you ALSO didn’t respond to my comment about the your contradictory positions on wars (Bush – bad, Mohammad – pbuh). Why? Don’t you want to think about the implications of the wars and aggressions of Mohammad on his neighbors?

    Just like the movie, it seems that Muslims have special glasses or filters that lets them see only what they want to see (or makes all the nonsense and evil disappear).

    I have been doing this for a while and I think I’d have a better chance of finding Sasquatch or a chupacabra than a Muslim that wants to talk about serious issues relating to the character of their noble example. At best one might get a silly excuse (it was defensive, everybody did it back then, etc…). This is why there is no hope for change or peace, because Muslims refuse to reflect on the values inherent in their dogma.

    Instead of violence and values, lets talk about something important like conversion numbers. You people forgot that in Islam, bees, ants and all animals are also “Muslims” (and even plants too). So I can factually report that there are more than 1,000,000,000,000,000 new Muslims everyday.

    Ha! Top that!

  83. I am so good. I can bs with the best of them………

  84. @Robin Rocks, you said:
    “Of course, you couldn’t ACCURATELY document something like that. It’s not like converts sign a convert registry for gifts.”

    If you knew that then why post it? This is one of the ridiculous claims Muslims keep making and it just makes us look like a bunch of fools.

  85. @Jay,
    You absolutely CAN BS with the best of them!

    …but that last one is funny.

  86. Actually, Robin, it’s not all about you. It’s been a longtime dream of mine, every time I heard the drivel of “people are lining up to say shahadas, millions are converting, don’t delay, say yours today”, to unleash an appropriately scorching answer to show the full glory of their bullshit post, pre- and during 9/11. You just presented a convenient opportunity. And it’s not my research people are fawning over, it’s my sparkling wit and turn of phrase. Ppphht.

  87. Jay…”Just like the movie, it seems that Muslims have special glasses or filters that lets them see only what they want to see (or makes all the nonsense and evil disappear.”

    Have you ever read Abdullah Al Qisimi? He lived in the early 1900’s In saudi..was an extreme salafist….many of the books in islamic institutions in saudi still use his material for study because he was so very good at writing about Islamic doctrine. Anyhow…he was and is still a very respected “muslim” in Islamic circles..among arab/muslims…however..all that changed..and he fell from grace. He eventually started having misgivings about his professed and dearly loved religion..he started researching and investigating etc and eventually came to the conclusion that is was all so much horseshit..and then wrote a book proclaiming the same entitled “Where is god”…in which he thoroughly kicks gods ass along with his fellow arab/muslims who profess belief in him.

    Now…professing apostacy in Islam..IN Saudi Arabia is a fairly risky life choice…writing a book about it is akin to suicide. He fled for his life to egypt…where attempts on his life were made numerous times but he lived to a ripe old age and died in 2006 of cancer. You would think if he had pissed off god so much god would have allowed at least one of those assassination attempts to work out…anyhow..I digress…

    In his book he makes this very pointed point about arab/muslims…he says…(paraphrasing as I dont have the book with me anymore) …arab/muslims do not appreciate criticism…they do not even know what it is…they consider it a plot and treason against them. Arab/muslims consider their very worst enemies to be those who try to correct their ideas and beliefs.

    The funny thing is…his book was banned in saudi of course..however it was passed around secretly like contraband among those who reveled in living dangerously…BUT his islamic books are STILL well respected and considered at the forefront of islamic teaching in saudi and around extremist circles….now…how is arab/muslims respect and revere the very same man for his intelligence and turn of phrase on one hand…but revile and ban him (and attempt to end his life) when he turns tables on them? I can imagine banning his work all together just to erase him from the minds of those poor misguided arab/muslims that might accidently stumble upon his porn like book but how can they revere and revile him at the same time? Quite a conundrum.

    If THIS man..who was among the inner circle of salafis..who was as harcore as you can get…says THIS about arab/muslims..you have to take him for his word. Then again..HE finally saw the light and got the hell out..so…hope is there. Don’t give up. ;)

  88. Coolred38,

    Thanks for that. It’s a shame not too many people hear about Abdullah Al-Qassimi, although if I’m not mistaken I believe he died in the 90’s.

  89. CoolRed,

    Yes I have heard of Al Qisimi. Seems that he is not much appreciated, but he is very right about the blockage that Muslims have toward Islam. I have some experience in debates (40 years ago) and let me say that Muslims are hopeless, not because they are stupid or ignorant (I don’t think they are) but because they have no experience in the intellectual positioning needed to deliberate on dogma and values. It is very hard for a Muslims to rebut certain issues when they are textually linked to clear quranic doctrine. So points conceded and non-rebutted make a very dull discussion.

    Muslims don’t criticize Islam. Period. This may be either because they are fearful of the perils of doing that or because they truly believe it is perfect and so why question perfection. I find Muslims to be interesting people and their degree of devotion to their prophet, god and writings is both astonishing and amusing.

    Red, a few posts back I had asked if you were still at the convenience store but I don’t think you noticed my question. I want to know how you and the kids are doing. How long have you been back? Three years? In some ways your story is similar to mine, having been away for 25+ years and then coming back to where I was born. I admire your spirit and attitude.

    Note: of course, you had it easy, living it up in the swinging wild fun-loving gulf and middle east states while I had to endure those puritanical, strict, sour, moralizing Brazilians. Samba, sexo, sol, caipirinhas, biquinis, and churrasco may sound like fun, but they require concentration and effort, day after day. It is not for the faint of heart.

    I had to put up with things like this:

    (the issue in the videos is cachaça, a brazilian drink, pretty strong stuff. I bet I have had to sing that “Cachaça is not water” song 100 times and it is always out of tune but after the second glass of pinga the music sounds ok.)

  90. @Jay
    “Muslims don’t criticize Islam. Period.”

    Here’s one, that took me literally one minute to find.

    How about trying to put some effort into your research, even if it doesn’t fit your narrative.

  91. I was looking for this book by Abdullah Al Qisimi, and I found this interesting article about Wafa Sultan.

  92. I stopped reading that link when I read, “Pamela Gellar, investigative journalist, par excellence.”

    I am all for critical thinking and rational criticism, not hate.

  93. didn’t notice that, the article is a normal article

  94. I cannot imagine that anything Pamela Gellar writes is normal. Apparently she’s found out that all Butterball Turkeys are Halal – and she’s going ballistic on how Butterball is converting all the unsuspecting Thanksgiving Turkey eaters to Islam.

  95. All Butterball Turkeys are halal?

  96. @Lynn,
    Apparently so- but I’m having trouble finding a reference because the internet is flooded with “stealth Islamist Turkey” stories and attempts to organize Butterball boycotts. I do know they openly sell Butterball Turkeys- and have done for years- in Saudi, which indicates to me that they are halal.

  97. It’s written by Andrew Bostom, I don’t see why the mere mention of PG should stop you from reading a well written, decent review.
    You come across as a bit paranoid Kristine. And you are missing out on a good review. Anyway, I think people, and especially Muslims, should read Wafa’s book.

  98. I’m not paranoid. I have read her blog and it is disgusting. It is not about real critical inquiry, but full of sarcasm and belittlement. I do not respect that, nor do I think that does anything to further knowledge. Her blog fosters paranoia.

  99. If it makes any difference, I’ve read Irshad Manji, and I agree with many of her critisicms.

  100. Kristine, all that has nothing to do with the article I linked to. This is a good, normal, nothing radical, unbiased article about Wafa Sultan, written by a guy named Andrew Bostom.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/allahs_apostate_cassandra.html

  101. Wow Wafa Sultan, Pamela Gellar LOL…good one i really thought there was a good debate happening here till i saw that.

  102. There is no debate, just a link to an article, and somebody else writing comments which have nothing to do with the article posted.
    Weird yes, but debate, no.

  103. So tonight is the night…. I think I will keep on writing comments so I can be #3.000.000 :D

  104. No, Aafke, that prize is MINE!!!

  105. 239 hits to go and I have to sleep now…
    Darn!

  106. So, Carol, how do I collect my prize? :-)

  107. @Lynn – email me.

  108. JC – Well, I watched the video. I can’t believe you linked to it and presented it as a “Muslim criticizing Islam” video. It is not – there is nothing critical there except the usual “You don’t know Islam” and “you have not right to judge” defense from the actress.

    What it does say is that imams, muftis and the like consider any contact with Indians (damn infidels) to be evil. So much for peace and love – and notice from which side the hate emanates from. Note also that the fat mufti didn’t even blink or deny it when she asked about the theft and murder “in the name of Islam” (3:41) or raping children in mosques (4:08). Maybe the imams do night shift at the local Catholic Church.

    The muffin Mufti in the video is so typical of the moderate Muslim religious establishment. They make preachers, priests, pastors and rabbis look like nice moral people – and that ain’t easy. I kind of got the idea that the muffin would have stoned her if it were up to him.

    JC, another thing. I never link to anti-Islam resources. I do reference and link to mainstream news sites and to Islamic sites (heck, if I can’t get Muslims to read Islam’s own texts or Muslim site, how can I expect them to look at Pamela’s (either!!!) stuff or read anti-Muslim garbage?).

    I hope you caught the cute and witty “Pamela’s stuff” double double intendre.

    What I got from the video is how incredibly beautiful Indian and Pakistani women are. I have always thought this. Their facial features define elegance and beauty, in my opinion (even more so than Brazilian women, who are no slouch when it comes to prettiness). The Indians and Pakistanis are basically the same race, being separated by stupid ideology. Since I am on the subject and talking about differences between Indians and Pakistanis, and people above are throwing around the names of crazy people, in the name of provocation and bad taste, I will quote Miss Ann “give em hell” Coulter: “Pakistanis are just Indians that still serve their Arab Masters”. A lot of truth there, somewhere.

    Hope all of you had a nice Thanksgiving.

  109. @Jay – ‘The Indians and Pakistanis are basically the same race, being separated by stupid ideology.’

    Oh, NO he DI’INT!!!

    lmao!

  110. Wow, 3 million + hits. That is a result of Carol’s assorted choice of topics, from the mundane to the more intellectual (and controversial) and to her cadet of admirers that post here – a rather eclectic bunch if I do say so. And I guess that focusing on the Middle East – a lost cause in my opinion – and religion, a passionate topic particularly if there is a Muslim within 10 miles, may have helped.

  111. JC…

    I felt awful for that actress but darn proud she chewed that guy out. But there was no criticism of Islam in it. There was criticism of the mufti but not of the dogma of the faith itself. I thought the actress was right. Poor woman probably does great things for her countrymen and because she won’t walk around fully covered she is reviled. So if she covered and DiDN”T do anything good would she be better thought of? Kind of superficial I think. Better an uncovered do gooder than a fully covered selfish person.

  112. Oby, you always say the obvious. Yes, she chewed the guy up and spit him out.

    Glad T-day is over. I ate too much, even if alone at home (well, with my dumb dog. It was a strange Thanksgiving, one funeral, one semi-jailed relative (a very distant one picked up for a suspended license while at OccupyPhoenix). Go figure.

  113. I just finished watching ‘They Live’ . Interesting…LOL Perhaps this movie is what prompted the “occupiers’ to start their protests? lol

  114. How about we start our own “Occupy FDA” until they change their ruling on Avastin?

  115. I used to think the “Occupy Wall Street” people were lazy, ignorant people, but after hearing more about them I just think they’re crazy. LOL.

  116. Way to generalize…something we get accused of all the time on this blog when it comes to Islam and muslims. ;)

  117. Coolred,
    I don’t know if your comment was directed at me or not but:

    LOL. Well, I wrote a whole blog entry on what I thought about Occupy Wall Street and how I disagree with their philosophy. My opinion changed after I learned a little more about what they’re doing. But to be honest, I don’t think they know what they’re fighting against. They say the corrupt 1% richest people. The only problem I have with this is that most of the top 1% richest people in America are not corrupt but are simply just hard-working Americans who did something they enjoyed and happened to get rich off of it. There are corrupt people that are poor, too. Why are they not targeting these people, too? And I feel I have the right to say this as I’ve lived within a variety of socioeconomic statuses within the U.S. I grew up in a dangerous trailer park. Now I live in a much nicer place. :) So I really don’t think the people in OccupyWallStreet really have a clue about what they’re doing. If you want to talk bad about Enron, etc. I’ll back you up 100%, but when people are prejudiced against rich Americans like Bill Gates who is also a huge philanthropist- I think that’s completely and utterly wrong.

  118. Strange One, sure, it takes a lot of laziness to sit outside in the cold without tents, week after week after week, being beaten and pepper sprayed and mistreated by the police to protest against a very real evil which is destroying American Society right now, the all out corruption of the banks and big companies of American politics.
    You must be completely blind not to see this. Not to understand what ”Occupy Wallstreet” is about. Incredible. Even in the Netherlands we know what it is about. Get some real information, and don’t rely on the Wallstreet sponsored media.

  119. @Strangeone – I’m with you re:The Occupiers. I hope that they can focus and realize that the rich guy isn’t the problem here. I wonder how many Occupiers are driving around in foreign cars wearing foreign made clothes. grrrrr!

    @Aafke – ‘Not to understand what ”Occupy Wallstreet” is about. Incredible.’

    What is even MORE incredible are the ones that sit out in the cold, without tents, week after week after week and THEY don’t even know why! LOLOLOL

    Yes, I know that not ALL of them are like that but there are TOO many that are. To me it seems like they are just beginning to get their heads together to decide what it is they are even protesting.

  120. Jay…

    “you always say the obvious”…and your point? So what? I was expressing my pleasure at seeing this guy being taken on by a woman..one that he thinks is a harlot.

  121. Sorry…hit send before I was done…did you read my whole comment? I was actually supporting your position saying that there was no criticism of Islam in her rant.

  122. While I think the Occupy Wall street movement has some valid points, I am not sure they are really that rational in many ways. It seems to me that they are the opposite end of the spectrum of the 1%. There has to be some reasonable thought somewhere in there. While the 1% is representing capitalism at it’s finest (sarcasm) the Occupiers remind me of socialists. So who is right?

    We can raise the minimum wage to $20/hr but are they willing to pay a higher price for goods to cover that wage increase?

    Guaranteed living wage regardless of employment. and… how would that affect the incentive to work?

    Open borders migration…anyone can live and travel anywhere. Does this mean within the USA or are they proposing we open the borders with Mexico and Canada? Wonder what Canada will have to say about that.

    Strike out all debt on the planet. OK I admit I have wondered about that one…why we as a human race don’t do that so that we can start over again with strict “Live within your means” constraints in place. No one can pay the debt back…so why demand it? but here is where I get stuck. What happened to personal responsibility? Borrowing money that you have agreed to pay back? Why don’t I run out and buy a 5 million dollar house and then not have to pay for it? What about the bills to run that house? Should I not be responsible for that.?

    I mean a good idea can be carried to the level of ridiculous and then a good idea goes from reasonable to wacko.

  123. Oby, good points about personal responsibility especially pertaining to debt.

    I agree that there is too much corruption with some companies/groups influencing congress and I don’t like that at all. It’s not good when congress starts favoring certain groups because of their bargaining power.

    This was a great clip a friend shared earlier this week about OWS. It seems even among “the 99%” people will find reason to divide. I especially loved the guy around the 4:20 mark and his thoughts on personal property when it pertains to his iPad.

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-november-16-2011/occupy-wall-street-divided?xrs=share_fb

  124. susanne…

    This video is absolutely hysterical!!! I loved it. What I love is even given a chance to live in utopia they still divide themselves…hmmmm…perhaps human nature?

  125. Exactly! And I loved that the guy was talking about private property, not personal possessions. Alrighty then! :)

  126. @Suzanne, that was too funny!

  127. Susanne430…

    Yes…I noticed that too and thought “huh”? The difference would be what? So it is OK for people to have access to this equal utopia for all…just as long as people don’t have to share their stuff. And who exactly is going to pay for that for everyone? Is this guy going to want to kick in a few bucks to provide it? Hey here is an idea…kinda crazy…but it might work…how about using the Public Library that is paid for by the people in the form of taxes and gov’t subsidies FOR the people who need these things and don’t have them?

  128. For those people who have no clue what ”Occupy Wallstreet” is about, here is a clip explaining the basics.
    I fully support Occupy wallstreet, and so should every American who isn’t a billionaire or who has some conscience.

  129. Good, perhaps some of those ‘Occupiers’ will now figure out why they are there, eh?

  130. Did you watch the video? The occupiers know exactly why they are there, it is the ignorant, clueless news anchors and the people who don’t bother to watch further than their misinformed news stories who don’t know what the occupiers are protesting for.
    The same people who vote for the politicians (who are brought by the big companies) who steal money from the American people to give it away to the banks and big corporations.

    I have no hope for America, seeing how ignorant Americans are, and how clueless about what’s happening in their own backyard, how they let themselves be robbed naked, and still don’t know who’s doing it!
    Meanwhile cheerfully making stupid derogative remarks about the people who do get it and are trying to do something about it.
    Amazing and saddening.
    I really keep being amazed at the ignorance of the common American people. I am not even interested in politics and I know all about it!
    I hope the Q will agree to live somewhere else in a few years.

  131. @Aafke – TRUST me when I say that not ALL of them do. I know some personally and all they know is that they don’t have a job (never bothered looking for one either and just recently thought it might be a good idea to go ahead and get that high school diploma after all) and they don’t have money but they know that there are a lot of people that DO and ‘that’s not fair!’. Seriously, trust me. I’m also VERY sure that this person doesn’t even bother to understand any of the political issue and probably has never even voted before. Maybe they will be learning something by being among some people that may know what’s going on but I seriously doubt it. The weather isn’t so nice anymore so I haven’t heard of any more occupying going on. ;-)

    When the occupiers can get their shit together and either educate these people or get them away from their cause then maybe they can get taken more seriously.

    Aafke, what do you propose these ‘occupiers’ can do to make things better?

    Where would you think you’d like to move to and how do you think that would that be a better place than here? (I’m not saying that it wouldn’t be, I’m just trying to understand what you think constitutes a good place to live)

  132. That is a great video. I actually knew about a lot of it but I didn’t realize Goldman Sachs was the biggest contributor to Obama campaign. Nepotism is absolutely rampant and it is galling I agree. As foolish as it sounds I remember thinking we should get rid of the dead weight in terms of too big to fail. Let them fail…another bank would step forward to take their place. The problem is that these guys (banks ) loyalty is to the shareholders and not the American people and politicians can be bought and sold. I would love to see some transparency..ahem…as if. I know many people were angry that the banks were irresponsible (criminal) with their dealings and got a bail out but the American people didn’t feel any of that. Still, that does not diminish someone else’s responsibility for his personal mismanagement of money. This back door dealing has been going on for a long time. People are saying something about it now because the banks were flagrant in their willful disregard for people’s hardships, wrote some incredibly risky financials and mortgage backed securities, and it went south and the average guy is paying the price. Wikipedia has a nice explanation of how that works.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

  133. This one is better:

  134. And today’s news is saying something about the euro collapsing and that being really too big to fail.

    I don’t agree with the taxpayers bailing out big business or banks or anyone really. Each person should be responsible for his/her debt. I believe in personal responsibility for the 1% as well as the 99%.

  135. Aafke, I must admit that I was really surprised when I learned you were moving to the US especially since I’ve never heard you say much of anything favorable about this country. No sense in your being miserable!

    Thanks for the videos. I hope to watch them later when I am home. Now I’m at my parents’ house watching my baby nephew and he is sleeping nearby.

    editted, no personal attacks are allowed

  136. “I don’t agree with the taxpayers bailing out big business or banks or anyone really. Each person should be responsible for his/her debt. I believe in personal responsibility for the 1% as well as the 99%.”

    Yes Susanne I agree. These banks will do it again mark my words. What is their incentive to be honest (and make an honest profit-not a killing) when they know they have the american people’s pocket to dig into? But again, that doesn’t give Average Joe the right to forsake his own responsibility. I think the OWSers had a good idea, but some of their demands are not reasonable IMO. Maybe they should rewrite some of them. Even still, I feel sure that there were many people who jumped on the OWS band wagon did so because they just love a good protest! LOL!

  137. I only partially agree with the OWS, nepotism is bad, no govt interfearence etc., etc., we all support, However many of the 99% ers.. don’t have a clue about what is it to “live within your means”…

    As an e.g we have a neighbour , who has a house of similar make ,model,size,lot as we do .. these houses are not cheap, They live on 1 income, she stays home and takes care of 4kids, her oldest is 15 and youngest is 4. Her husband works as a maintenance engg for the city. how on god’s green earth can they afford the house, 2 veicles, one a BMW, Ski vacations and what the hell are they going to do when they hit retirement and kids hit college ????

    They have no inheritance and i just don’t see how they can afford the lifestyle, oh i forget to mention, they have every concievable videogame console possible intheir house, the kids all have bikes, scooters and the daughter wears designer clothes HOW???

    Who is funding this? and yet the lady sometimes turns to me and says we are lucky we have good careers where we don’t have to retire early!!!! hello not much to do with LUCK, mostly lots of planning, hardwork, too many hrs than we can count and way too less sleep.

    She toldme she spent 5yrs trying to come up with a major and gave up!!!! huh and yet bemoans the fact that she cannot find jobs…

    her husband works for 8 hrs ( barely) and blames obama for his slowly dwindling pension plan :-) for the past 2 yrs, in these 2 yrs i have never heard them talk about saving a single cent in lieu of the diminishing pension plan…:-)

    Further she has the gall to say that since we paid tuition for our son till he got a fellowship and will be paying for my daughters college and since we can afford it, the fellowship should be for kids who cannot afford it ( like hers ????) competation, intelligence, dilligence, hardwork….apparently shouldn’t be the criteria.. don’t get me ont he rant.

    we live in a wasteful society and the basics of financial planning and money mgmt seem to escape our grasp — maybe we should go back to cash.. you buy it if you have the cash else do without….

    I did burst her bubble and tell her we plan to retire so we could work in our hospital – for free — whatever happened to giving back to society??? huh

  138. @Susanne and oby – “I don’t agree with the taxpayers bailing out big business or banks or anyone really. Each person should be responsible for his/her debt. I believe in personal responsibility for the 1% as well as the 99%.”

    I don’t really see a problem with the gov’t giving LOANS during hard times like they did for the auto industry. A lot of average Joes depend on those jobs being available so they can keep their families fed. I think the gov’t should feel a bit of responsibility considering how they have aided the swift EXIT of decent jobs from this country. I think it’s much easier to keep a viable industry running than to try to bring in something new to replace it.

    @radha – ‘I only partially agree with the OWS, nepotism is bad, no govt interfearence etc., etc., we all support, However many of the 99% ers.. don’t have a clue about what is it to “live within your means”…’

    I agree! And that goes for everyone, even the government.

  139. Not everyone lives above their means..not everyone depends on credit cards…not everyone buys crap they dont need. We are not all the same….be mad at those who deserve it…but don’t lump everyone together under the umbrella of money wasting idiots. Some of us are getting by on very little..and quite fine with that….but working to improve ourselves every minute of every day…and not moaning about wanting the impossible.

    I, for one, obtained the impossible in my life..everything else is gravy.

  140. Chill out ‘Red – she said ‘MANY’

  141. Lynn, “I agree! And that goes for everyone, even the government.”

    Oh, probably most especially the government! My high school economics teacher used to tell us that the gov’t was the only entity that could print worthless money legally. They need more cash for programs, they print more dollars making it lose value. Crazy.

    Coolred, I hope to never lump everyone together and I apologize if it seemed that I did.

  142. Omg!!! Radha…you have hit upon one of my MOST raw nerves!! YEEESSSSS! That is so much of America’s problem today. You and your husband understand what my husband went through to get here. LOTS of hard work and hoops to jump through not to mention planning for his future and keeping his eye on that goal while putting in huge amounts of study to get where he is.

    He regularly tells me “he has no idea how people do it” when referring to their spending habits. His nurses regularly buy Christmas and birthday gifts that cost way more than we would spend. They think nothing of blowing money on the latest and greatest gadget. Meanwhile for us to get an Ipad was a major discussion and a wait for it to be on sale. We both have Lexuses. Mine is a 1998, bought used with 35K miles on it and it now has almost 215K miles. I will not be getting a new car until this one has at least 250K miles on it. His was bought used about 6 years ago used and now has 100+K miles on it (maybe more). He purchased it only after the Nissan altima he bought in 1993 finally was driven into the ground. Meanwhile, we recently found out that his office manager is leasing a new SUV every three years! This man has 6 kids, a wife that doesn’t work and he is at the top of his payscale for his job. How does he do that?

    Maybe the difference is that the guy (my husband) that is responsible for the salaries, insurance, 401K match and all the other overhead for the employees is more conservative because he knows the buck stops with him and there always has to be something put away just in case. Don’t know.

    But both of us know that getting ahead requires that one live below their means. It doesn’t matter how much one makes. The principal is the same…spend less than you make. I KNOW in some cases that is next to impossible. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t something for everyone to strive for. Also knowing the difference between wants and needs is important. I agree Radha that America has been on a drunken spending spree for way too long. It begins in childhood with all the advertisements that tell kids they can’t live without something. It carries through adulthood. Easy credit (again banks!) is so pervasive that people don’t even think about charging their cards to the max.
    We are told constantly that we should spend spend spend. God forbid we make due with what we have. The financial awareness in this country is abysmal. Children should be taught finances and how to manage them when they are small and need to observe their parents doing the same thing!

    OK…down off my soapbox. I just worry for America and that the people won’t learn their lessons after this last bad spell.

  143. Lynn…

    I think she meant bailouts that won’t be paid back.

  144. Oby – ‘Children should be taught finances and how to manage them when they are small and need to observe their parents doing the same thing’

    I agree. My kids used to think that coupons were like ration cards or something that you HAD to have in order to purchase an item. ;-)

    I am glad to see that ‘credit unions’ are getting very popular in elementary schools and kids are encouraged to save their money in them. My nephew had a position in his school’s ‘credit union’ and he even got ‘paid’ for his service at the end of the school year.

    re: the bailouts – A LOT of people considered these ‘loans’ to the automakers as bailouts and were strongly opposed to them. Particularly some political leaders in the southern states – the reason that my husband does not want to spend any of his vacation money in the south ;-)

    That MAN! he will find any excuse anywhere to NOT spend money. It’s a constant struggle for me to get him to ‘stimulate the economy’ :-)

  145. Chillout? My name is “COOLred”…whats more chilled than that? ;)

  146. Susanne…I wasn’t replying specifically to your comment (I would put your name there if I was)..just the oft repeated one that americans live beyond their means. I imagine quite a few of them do obviously…but not everyone does.

  147. Lynn, oh shoot! I’m one of those Southerners opposed to the bailouts of big companies! Honestly, the way the news and people I’d listen to elsewhere talked about it initially, I thought they were just handouts and they really made me irritated. Only later did I realize that – I think – they were loans. But isn’t that what they gave banks as well? Seems many of the banks repaid those loans. Or were some handouts?

    I don’t know. Educate me. :D I keep seeing Fannie and Freddie blamed. Maybe *they* are the real culprits. I guess maybe there is plenty of blame to go around.

    Also, isn’t it funny that we often get blamed for being so materialistic, yet when our economy is not growing, other countries are concerned about this since their economy is somewhat dependent on our spending sprees? I find it hard to keep the right attitude when I’m first blamed for having so much stuff and then blamed for not spending enough.

    Coolred, we live within our means as well so I know not everyone spends money they don’t have. :)

  148. Lynn…

    I am reading a book by a woman named Mary Hunt called “Debt Proof Your Kids”. I thought I knew a lot about finances and the ways in which we are snookered to spend. What I just read is that in most major middle schools and high schools there is a push for the kids to watch 10 minutes of a news program per day on something called Channel One. Sounds great right? Our kids are so ignorant now a days any amount of news is a good thing to keep them abreast. But here is the catch…the tv’s and all the paraphernalia to broadcast it is supplied by channel one which is supported by…you guessed it…advertisers. Ok, fine so just shut the ads off right? oh no…they MUST watch the ads and they can’t be shut off. (not sure how that is done.) So the kids are supposedly watching “news” when in reality the news is the vehicle for the real reason they are watching…the ads. They are unwittingly being primed to be consumers for life. It’s terrible.

    “In 2006, the American Academy of Pediatrics reported that research indicated that children who watched Channel One remembered the commercials more than they remembered the news.”

    Another quote:

    “Another criticism, noted by Media Education Foundation’s[8] documentary Captive Audience,[9] is that very little time is dedicated to actual news and the majority of the programming is soft, sensationalistic “fluff” with corporate marketing and PR tie-ins to promote products and services, arguing that it further corrupts the school setting with consumerism.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_One_News

  149. @coolred – not all but many :-) I’ve read that you have struggled, are struggling to get an education and do live beyond your means, admirable ,if you need any help in the medical field I will be glad to help.
    BUT i know more people living beyond their means than those that do . maybe it’s the area of my work, Like Oby said, one of my OR nuses bought an Ipad, some new fangled TV , dishwasher and a ton of misc stuff this thanksgiving & treated us to the prices/sale/etc., overview during a long surgery… all because his dishwasher was working fine but not the quiet kind and made noise at night ( wouldn’t the logical thought process be to turn the dishwasher on before heading to work to rattle away noisily in an empty house !!!!)

    I’m only glad he doesn’t have kids to teach these bad habits too :-)

    oh well what can we do, i’ve given up the lecture, i just smile ,congratulate them ontheir purchase and go home and tell my kids these things int he hopes of showing them how not to live .

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