Saudi Arabia: Removing the Fear of Muslims in the USA


 

To quote from an email I have received, “America has always been a melting pot, but in the post-9/11 world the environment can be downright hostile. Recent mosque protests and congressional hearings on American Muslims are all unfortunate examples of a rising tide of fear. This climate of suspicion towards our fellow Americans compromises the great values that our country was founded upon.”

 

The words above are chillingly true.  Too many Americans equate Islam with terror.  This feeling is perpetuated by a fear of Islam.  Take the Quran out of the element of Islam and just look at a Muslim as a person…as an individual.  Try to put aside any initial fear or sense of revulsion to a Muslim and just take that chance to get to know him or her as a real person.   Myfellowamerican website has done exactly that.  I encourage American Bedu readers to view the video teaser on the website and take the time to watch other videos or read some of the stories contributed by viewers.

 

In fact, I hope that after viewing the websiter you’ll come back and share your thoughts and comments!

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394 Responses

  1. Hi Carol…

    I am not able to connect to this video either through the photo or the link provided…is anyone else having trouble?

  2. The video is fixed.

    Moderator.

  3. Don’t you think American’s suspicion of Islam and foreign (and sometime American) Muslims is justified? You, yourself have advised American women to watch out for charming and lying young Saudi men. However nice most Muslims may be (and the few I have known were nice enough) we see continuing stories that remind of us of how that small but important minority thinks and acts. I live in Minnesota, not all Muslims here are Somalis, but many are. Somali young men have been recruited as terrorists in Africa, who knows what they will start doing here. Somali cab drivers had to be threatened with lawsuits before they would pick up people with guide dogs. I can go on. I just don’t feel the love.

  4. Why not instead, just maybe, who knows, stop the hate and violence that Muslims do? How about ending the discrimination and persecution of non-Muslims in Islamic societies? Why not renounce the hundreds of verses in the Quran that offend and insult infidels? Why not be honest about the many evil deeds that your prophet did to his non-Muslim neighbors, and then tell us you do not consider him a great moral example?

    Or then, do nothing and demand that non-Muslims turn a blind eye to the hate, evil and violence that permeates Islam and ask them pretend there are no problems with this ideology or the antagonistic and destructive actions that characterize Muslims everywhere. It is obvious that, as the Muslim population grows, they will become more radical and violent, demanding privileges and attacking their neighbors, and the so-called good Muslims will makes excuses and pretend that this has nothing to do with Islam..

    I watched the video and was not impressed. Once again Muslims fail to address the hate and violence they do and that their religion teaches. Making a cute, misleading video is easier that asking the hard questions about their religion, the vile verses in the Quran, the immoral deeds of Mohammad and their actions everywhere. Muslims cannot change and cannot be honest about Islam.

    Just for fun I will post this to their ‘My fellow American’ website with a link here!

  5. Did it. I submitted a ‘story’. Even took a screen shot. I bet I will get a front page billing – or maybe not.

  6. “CAIR Legislative Director Corey Saylor : ‘One wonders whether Representative King will call witnesses to support his bizarre claim that ’85 percent’ of American Muslim community leaders are ‘an enemy living amongst us,'” Saylor stated.

    “CAIR officials routinely attacks anyone who questions the motives or actions of Muslims in the United States, according to several law enforcement sources.”

    http://www.examiner.com/law-enforcement-in-national/controversy-rep-king-plans-second-muslim-american-radicalization-hearing

    “That the mosque is a societal apparatus that might serve as a support mechanism for violent jihad may seem self-evident…”

    Shari’a and Violence in American Mosques

    http://www.meforum.org/2931/american-mosques

    “JEDDAH: Many Internet surfers say that there is an online propaganda to taint Islam by spreading lies, with many non-Muslims being misguided.

    In response to this, they try to rectify lies posted about Islam in online forums, blogs, chatrooms and on newspaper sites.

    The surfers say that people who make anti-Islam comments blatantly tell lies, often quoting out of context Qur’anic verses, Hadiths and fatwas (edicts).”

    Net gain: Surfers counter online anti-Islam propaganda with facts

    http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article452127.ece

  7. Whether or not Americans equate Islam with terror, Our enemies use Islam as a motivator and as an ideology. Why else would Pakistani terrorists attack a Chabad center in Mumbai, India? The universality of Islam allows Muslim terrorists to justify killing subway passengers in London because of a perceived wrong done to others in foreign countries. Should I be suspicious of Muslims, (Muslim men anyway)? Yes. Maybe is some far off future a version of Islam can develop that isn’t so anti Western and Arab centric. In the US most Imams are foreign born and foreign educated, many speak little English. The Islam that American Muslims learn is filtered through foreign cultures that think dating is wrong, drinking alcohol is wrong, having bacon with the eggs is wrong and having women walk around without scarves on their heads is wrong.

    Even without the terrorism there isn’t much about Islam that I care for.

  8. Jerry, the Imam that married my teenaged daughter (to an illegal alien in need of a green card) without her non-Muslim family even knowing about it , received his PH.D in Islamic Studies from right here at the University of Michigan.

  9. I don’t like the video only because I don’t like ‘hate’ videos. I can’t argue with the sentiments though. It’s a scary religion. I read the papers from my husband’s mosque and never do they speak against terrorist acts such as the killings in Pakistan done because of the Koran burning. They basically justified those killings.

    Friends (new immigrants to Canada from Iraq) are needing some assistance and I suggested they go to their mosque for help. He asked why I thought the mosque would help and I told him that a church would help. His reply was that Yes, a church would help because he received help from a church in Syria but he said a mosque and it’s members never would!!!

    Muslims always throw back at Christians about the evils written in the Bible. It’s true that the Bible has some evil things but the difference is that Christians don’t believe or follow the evil stuff. They realize it is wrong. Muslims follow the evil stuff in the Koran and live by it. That’s why people are afraid and sometimes I think that those who are really afraid REALLY should be!

  10. Wendy

    was your friend a Muslim? If so even a mosque would not help him? Hmmm a bit disheartening if true…I would expect a mosque to to be less likely to help a non muslim :-( but somewhat surprised it wouldn’t help a Muslim…churches as a rule will help anyone in need. There are no required religious affiliations that I know of. I think one of the posters from the past mentioned that about his sons issues…he couldn’t get help through a muslim group (he was a muslim) but I believe found help at a Jewish community center if I remember right.

  11. Oby, yes he and his family are Muslim. When they fled Iraq for Syria a Catholic church helped them. Took them in. He said mosques never help and my husband concurs. Sad isn’t it??? Hopefully it’s not true but it seems to be.

  12. Looks like everyone’s showing their true colours

  13. Salim Mansur has an article that touches this issue: Arab world a relic of history. He begins by pointing out how stupid it was to talk about an arab spring: “Only the politically correct, and they are the majority in the contemporary West, remain surprised of how quickly the so-called “Arab spring” has turned into an “Arab frenzy” and is headed into an “Arab inferno.” (I said this myself here in February. Duhhhh).

    He says: For democracy to work, the prerequisite is a culture in which the people recognizes the “other” — irrespective of how the “other” is defined in terms of ethnicity or religion or gender — as equal, and their interests and aspirations as legitimate. This recognition of the “other” is missing in Arab culture. The “other” is merely tolerated in a subordinate status and since the “other” in the modern context is unwilling to be consigned indefinitely into an inferior position, the result is the repeated cycle of rebellion and repression in Arab history.
    While I think he has some good points, I think it is more than culture – it is also and mainly religion. Only a fool would argue that islam is not a major component of Arab culture.

    Islam does not give any value to non-Muslims. We are even less than women. We are tolerated if we accept a subordinate position and never speak out for our rights or do anything to offend Muslims. This is why Muslims are never concerned about the evil Muslims do to “the other.” We are like animals to them – on lower than animals, according to the Quran.

    As I have said before and as is demonstrated in the videos, Muslims have no capacity for self reflection. They are right, we are wrong, even though they, not us, are the party responsible for the bad reputation and dislike of Muslims. The people in the videos all pretend islam has nothing to do with hate and violence. They have, in their minds, deleted a good portion of the pages in the Quran and only focus on a handful of verses.

    I don’t trust them. If they have read the Quran and hadith and if they watch the evening news, they should understand that islam and Muslims have a problem, not us, or more than us. Whatever.

    The article also has an interesting link to the problem of women under islam. I quote: the West (“gharb” in Arabic), as Mernissi explains, is frightening because, among many things, freedom renders it strange, and like the female form, freedom is seductive. Arab culture, on the contrary, demands whatever is desirable and relished in private must be hidden (veiled) in public.

    Here is the link:

    http://www.torontosun.com/2011/06/10/arab-world-a-relic-of-history

    Bella, and what are our “true colors”?

  14. I watched the video, and I think the makers of it are trying to do a really simple thing — to show everyday Muslims doing everyday activities in American communities. It’s an attempt to familiarize American people with the idea that Muslims live among them and are “normal people too.” It’s a basic and truthful premise; nonetheless, the reactions that I see here clearly show that suspicion and fear are alive and well, even among people who appear to take an interest in cross-cultural issues.

    Carol seems to be trying to share experiences that improved her life immeasurably with a population of commenters who seem to want to deny her points, and to take advantage of her platform to post comments and ideas that are contrary to her message. Before people jump on the “free speech” bandwagon, yes, you’re entitled to share your opinions, until the blog owner says otherwise. But there’s this thing called trolling, and the comments this year have finally tipped over into that attitude. I have never seen such resistance by commenters on a blog that is thoughtfully presented and attempts to be fair.

    Carol deserves credit for sharing. Her experience is extensive and insightful. Her voice is unique; but the tone of the comments here isn’t unique at all. The anti-Muslim bias is really redundant, in fact. And calling this comments section a forum for “open discussion” is just a little bit disingenuous. Commenters here are bringing the same tired old ideas to this progressive and interesting platform.

    Carol invites everyone to a feast; the guests come and imply that they don’t like what’s on the table. It’s apparently gratifying to the commenters in some way, but not very pleasant towards the host.

  15. “Islam does not give any value to non-Muslims. We are even less than women. We are tolerated if we accept a subordinate position and never speak out for our rights or do anything to offend Muslims. This is why Muslims are never concerned about the evil Muslims do to “the other.” We are like animals to them – on lower than animals, according to the Quran.
    As I have said before and as is demonstrated in the videos, Muslims have no capacity for self reflection. They are right, we are wrong, even though they, not us, are the party responsible for the bad reputation and dislike of Muslims. The people in the videos all pretend islam has nothing to do with hate and violence. They have, in their minds, deleted a good portion of the pages in the Quran and only focus on a handful of verses.
    I don’t trust them. If they have read the Quran and hadith and if they watch the evening news, they should understand that islam and Muslims have a problem, not us, or more than us. Whatever.”

    Jay, you’re not contributing to thoughtful discussion; you’re being rude and inflammatory. You’re a troll.

  16. @Jess, though I agree with a lot of points you have made I respectfully disagree with your last point about Jay.

    He shared his opinion on this topic. Calling him a troll was rude. Let’s not derail this excellent post by name calling. Tone it down Jess, please. Respond to what he has written, don’t just call it inflammatory and leave, this also does not contribute to thoughtful discussion.

    @Bella-vita, I also do not understand what you meant by “true-colors”. If we truly want civility on this blog AND productive discussions, like many claim they do, then we should try not to drop one liners just to rile up commenters. How was your comment productive? How was it even related to Bedu’s post?

    I have not watched the video just yet but will do soon. I have read the comments though and have thus far enjoyed the responses. Humans do not share the same brain. We are not born to always agree with one another. I hope this thread is not reduced to fighting and name calling. Come on guys, let’s try harder to rise above all that. If we all really want change in the world we have to start somewhere and that is with ourselves first! If we all really want peace between Non-Muslims and Muslims then why not start here on Bedu? Agree, disagree, have lively heated discussions but why not keep it civil?

  17. I just watched the video and truth be told it made me cry. I may have a dry sarcastic humor at times but I’m also quite sensitive. I suppose my tears to the video has more to do with my own spiritual issues I’m working on at the moment than it has to do with all of its content. I do believe this video however is a step in the right direction for all of us. I hope anyone who does not agree with the video visits the website and contacts its creators to share their views. The more feedback they have the better I would presume.

  18. it’s a very thought-provoking post Carol.

    i guess my ‘issue’ with islam and videos as above is the fact that it doesn’t answer any legitimate questions people might have about islam.
    it shows that muslims and islam are misunderstood, and non-muslims are bigoted, full of hate or ignorant at best. it’s not going to remove fear and suspicion, is it?

    what i would rather see is an open debate about islam. i would like to see an islamic scholar(s) and on the other side non-muslims who are actually knowledgable in the qur’an and islam to discuss certain points and also take questions from audience.
    THAT i think would be useful to bridge misunderstandings.

  19. I agree with Kasia and I think Jess should view Jay’s comments (or any non-Muslim’s comments) through the same lens. He has questions that he feels need to be answered and no one can fault him for that. I also believe the makers of this video are capable of perhaps creating something that does address some of the concerns people have about Islam more directly. I haven’t visited their website yet but maybe they have plans to do just that in the future.

  20. I don’t think any of us here think Muslims in the US should not be free to build their mosques, but that doesn’t change that fact that most Americans are suspicious of Islam. All the happy talk videos aren’t going to change the fact that Islam promotes hatred of Christians and Jews (and anyone not Muslim). That is a simple fact. After WWII, many Christian denominations examined their own texts and began to remove as much anti-semitism from their liturgy as possible. I don’t see any similar effort in Islam to learn how to live with the other as an equal.

  21. “After WWII, many Christian denominations examined their own texts and began to remove as much anti-semitism from their liturgy as possible. I don’t see any similar effort in Islam to learn how to live with the other as an equal.”

    That is a good point (and darn it I didn’t save the article) but I read recently something very similar. That the shock of what happened to Jews in Europe was such that it caused people to change their attitudes and dump some of their prejudices. I don’t remember it saying that is was a specifically “bible oriented” action, but rather a larger and more pervasive wave of consciousness throughout the population of the USA.

  22. I think for now one way to help bridge a terribly widening gap of misunderstanding is for Muslims and those of other faiths to remove the faith card from their interactions and just respond to each other as people.

    You must be able to relate as a individual before you can ever bring up differing views of religion.

  23. @oby

    I wasn’t specifically bible oriented, it was related to texts used during liturgy, which just quotes from the bible. So, phrases like ‘perfidious jew’ were removed from the Catholic liturgy.

  24. I believe the issue of “removing the fear of Muslims” is equally applicable to “removing the fear of Americans” in the US. In surveys after surveys of Americans, they are more likely than not to believe that Islam encourages violence, at least in comparison to other religions around the world. When compared with some other religions practiced in America, positive views of Islam rank below those for mainstream Protestantism, Catholicism, Judaism, and Christian fundamentalist faiths. Only Scientology, of all the religions asked about, ranked lower.

    Despite the efforts of CAIR and other Muslim groups to project more positive views of Muslims, through hundreds of videos such as the “My Fellow Americans”, negative perceptions of Muslims continue to increase steadily. There is a direct relationship between increased acts of individual and group terrorism (albeit a tiny minority of Muslims who perform such acts) AND increased rate of negative fears/perceptions about Muslims.

    The following brief video link explains it in a bit more detail:

  25. I don’t think there would be a public ruling or edict issued if a mosque or specific sect of Islam were to choose to change, amend or practice the Quran differently as published. That would just add more fuel to a burning inferno and put people in great chaos. The Quran is not going to be rewritten but that does not mean every Muslim interprets, practices or believes it the same. I realize this is a controversial statement but I think it is a candid and honest statement.

    I again will repeat that just stepping back to learn people as people without bringing in the faith aspect will be a huge leap towards understanding. People are never going to acknowledge to strangers they feel this way or that way about their faith if they’ve chosen to make changes that go against the mainstream.

  26. @Carol – ‘People are never going to acknowledge to strangers they feel this way or that way about their faith if they’ve chosen to make changes that go against the mainstream.’

    Sure, but that niqab she is wearing does tell a lot, does it not? I didn’t notice anyone in that video wearing a niqab, did I? I also didn’t notice anyone in that video refusing to shake hands with anyone else. I didn’t see any ‘reverts’ shunning their families either, did I. It didn’t show the parents not allowing their children to be friends with non-Muslims or homeschooling their kids to keep them away from being ‘Americanized’

    I’m not saying that the video wasn’t good, but it also didn’t show the whole picture either.

  27. “Canada’s openness and generosity do not extend to barbaric cultural practices that tolerate spousal abuse, ‘honour killings,’ female genital mutilation, forced marriage, or other gender-based violence.”

  28. JS, ‘The surfers say that people who make anti-Islam comments blatantly tell lies, often quoting out of context Qur’anic verses, Hadiths and fatwas (edicts).”
    Net gain: Surfers counter online anti-Islam propaganda with facts’

    OMG JS, I read that article and I had to laugh at this part. ‘All those interviewed paid tribute to the 21-year-old Saudi student Mashari Abdul Mohsen Al-Siralhi, who died after rescuing an American boy in a lake in Ohio in April,’

    Well, OK, I didn’t laugh, it’s really not funny but I found it so very ironic that they would talk about that incident which was proven to be FALSE according to the boy who survived. Why didn’t the writer think it was important to fact check THAT story?

  29. “I again will repeat that just stepping back to learn people as people without bringing in the faith aspect will be a huge leap towards understanding.”

    While I think in a normal situation that would be wonderful and the preferred method of getting to know someone….but the fact remains that most Muslims self identify as Muslims first and anything else second so even if I don’t want to get into the religious aspect it is there front and center whether I like it or not, whether I talk about it or not. And I think in large measure THAT self identification first above all others is part of the division (IMHO). It immediately divides us into “other”. Whereas if they thought of themselves as Americans first then we immediately have some commonality.It isn’t about God…the generic god that many people can believe in no matter the faith…it is about “Allah” the one that Muslims believe in. To me it is a small but very important difference.

  30. Not self identifying as Muslim first is easy enough for male muslims to do…they can go incognito up until they wish to label themselves as such. You never have to know what their religion is during an encounter (though most will say so at some point)…however, muslim women generally proclaim their status as muslim just by what they wear so that is already an aspect of the relationship as such before anything else happens.

    I found it interesting the number of Americans who asked me if I were STILL American upon realizing that I was Muslim…because of the well known fact that muslims identify first and foremost as muslim…it is believed that when you take on the status as muslim…you lose your nationality and become psuedo arab.

  31. Coolred…

    I agree with you…not that I have ever heard anyone ask another that specific question, but they are so very closely associated that people I think almost assume that the two cannot coexist compatibly. Why is that? Where has that assumption come from? People don’t assume you are black and NOT American or another faith and not American…but with Islam it is different and people on some level realize that. And I personally think that is because of signals given off by Muslims.. distinct signals. And it might be that because it is so evident to the “other” that for Muslims being identified as Muslim (especially the women as you pointed out) is the most important stamp of identity so they assume, coming from a country where people DO NOT generally identify themselves by their religion first and most importantly, they are setting themselves apart.

    When Americans identify themselves they do so in a variety of ways, each piece sometimes as equally important as the next…ie: mother, daughter, wife, X religion, American, career etc….but for Muslims faith is absolutely first and foremost and letting others know that you are Muslim (as opposed to being private about it) is almost equally as important so of course non Muslims get that message…how can they help not get that message. It is shouted out fairly loud and clear. So it can be difficult to take the faith aspect out of the equation when one half of the encounter (muslim vs non muslim) often makes it very clear. It automatically brings it into the equation….NOW…if someone like Carol who is Muslim comes along and doesn’t speak arabic throughout their speech even though they aren’t a bit arab and doesn’t wear hijab and doesn’t identify as a Muslim by telling you (ie: keeping it private) THEN I think there is greater success in getting to know each other without the faith being the elephant in the room so to speak…But how many Muslims are there out there like Carol? Certainly not a majority I would guess.

  32. oby…simple answer. Ummah. Once you are a Muslim you are automatically thrust into this large brotherhood/sisterhood of other Muslims around the world. Because of the belief that Islam and muslims are supreme/superior and due to hadith and ayats that raise the status of muslims but lower the status on nonmuslims in the eyes of Muslims (whether overt or not)…Muslims, while learning what Islam is…learning what it means to be a muslim…are also learning that no matter how much you love/trust/admire etc etc nonmuslims (family, friends etc) that this love/trust/admirartion etc must never supercede how you feel towards other muslims…the members of your ummah, who should be closer to you than anyone else. Your monies, aid, help, good words, charity etc etc should always go towards helping other muslims before (and for some, at all) non muslims.

    Of course this is a sham because there are plenty of Muslims suffering around the world, mostly at the hands of other muslims, and of which the Ummah couldnt care less about….but it sounds nice on paper…or in a book.

    The only reason I have found that muslim women are inspired/ordered/threatened to cover is to proclaim that they are off limits to nonmuslim men…and the only reason muslim men are not told to do the same…is because they are allowed to go out and “conquer” nonmuslim women…and they cant do that if they are dressed as the “traditional
    Muslim male. Ask any woman that has met and engaged in a relationship with a muslim male…did she know he was a muslim when she first met him…and when he did eventually tell her he was muslim…did he gloss over his role as a muslim man (in order to excuse his behavior/dress/actions/weak faith etc).

    I find it interesting that Muslims believe muslim women cannot marry nonmuslim men…but muslim men can marry nonmuslim women…(off topic I know) and the message they are declaring by instructing muslim women to cover is…our women belong to us…not to you…but your women are fair game to us. By requiring muslim women to dress “Islamically” they are defining the “playing” field from the start…setting boundries. The hijab is protecting/shielding muslim women from nonmuslim men…not from muslim men (as evidenced from the huge percentage of muslim women sexually harrassed in muslim countries)

    long random post…sorry ;)

  33. A nice piece of prose, Jess, yours. As you may have noticed, the theme of the “Americans like us” website present is that Americans have some unfounded irrational fear of Islam. I doubt that fear is the correct word – try ‘dislike’. But there is more. The 3 stories and the five personal videos plus the feature videos that I took time to read and watch prove my point. Nowhere do they address the reason that many dislike Islam and Muslims. The basic premise is that so-called “fear” is just a big mistake. The website basically tells us that it is non-Muslims that are stupid and irrational, that Muslims are just like us, and maybe even better.

    In case you don’t know or haven’t figured it out, it is the hate and violence and terror that Muslims do that causes this dislike. It is the discrimination and persecution that are the trademarks of Islamic nations everywhere that make us skeptical of Muslims and their sweet words. Do you follow me on this? Worse yet, Muslims pretend that these issues are not about them. Have you ever seen a Muslim that will say “yeah, the Quran has some awful verses that are really disgusting and disparaging to non-Muslims, and yes, Mohammed did some really vile things many many times, or even yes, we do persecute other religions everywhere we dominate, not to mention our revulsion for jews and gays and our mistreatment of women? Have you? Now, have you ever heard a Muslim say “We are peaceful and the problem is that you don’t understand us”?

    So Jess, do you think we should be silent when discrimination and violence is done to others? Is not hurting the feelings of your Muslim friends more important than broken bodies and crushed freedoms?

    Feel free to answer my questions and/or illuminate this old man’s feeble mind on why people who submit to an ideology based on hate, violence and conquest are really peaceful and honest and sugar melts in their mouths. Go for it. Unlike some people I don’t mind a few harsh words, true or not. Just make sure you get your facts right and assign the proper importance to issues.

  34. I wonder why the video didn’t also show US Army Major Nidal Hasan so we could see how Muslims also serve our country in the Armed Forces. Don’t worry, I know that we have many, many Muslims in our Armed Forces and I trust that they DO serve honorably.

  35. Thank you, Rosemary. As you know life is not absolute blacks and whites. There are shades of gray everywhere.

    I can say that, while I am often harsh, I recognize a great disconnect between the individual Muslim and Muslims as a group. In a person to person encounter, a Muslim is often frank, even admitting that Islam has serious problems, as do the quran and ahadith. Yet in a group Muslims very rarely will take that position. It is almost as if they are more afraid of other Muslims than non-Muslims.

    I think we have many problems and the spread of Islam is one of them. If I could see any sign of reformation or liberalization in Muslims anywhere I would take heart. But, alas, Islam is everywhere becoming more radical and intolerant. This is not good for us, non-Muslims, nor is it good for Muslims.

    Rosemary, you hit it on the head. I would very much like to see Muslims “address some of the concerns people have about Islam more directly”. A cute website or fancy videos is nice, but ineffective, useless. Instead, I would like Muslims to explain how/when they are going to repeal the apostasy laws or end discrimination against “the other”. I would like an apology for the wars of jihad against non-Muslims, including the attacks by their prophet on non-Muslims his peaceful neighbors. I would like Muslims to condemn those verses that mandate war on non-Muslims and teach hate against us – and so on.

    I look very hard for this type of reflection and sometimes I find it, but it is rare. Usually we get a “It is you, not us” attitude from Muslims and any issue is met with a “out of context” or “you don’t understand” explanation that changes nothing.

    Personally I think we are heading for a very violent future and Islam is one aspect of this, but not the only one. Sorry! I hope I am wrong but probably not.

  36. Lynn and JS…

    “surfers say that people who make anti-Islam comments blatantly tell lies, often quoting out of context Qur’anic verses, Hadiths and fatwas (edicts).” Net gain: Surfers counter online anti-Islam propaganda with facts…

    Well, there was a time when I had more time for this, and that included forays into Islamic forums. I don’t remember much of being countered with facts but I sure remember being deleted and banned. My personal experience is that most Muslims are not very good with facts or context. Perhaps that is why the prefer kumbayah videos.

    Is it just me, or does that statement in the initial post about taking “the Quran out of the element of Islam and just look at a Muslim as a person” sound like an admission that the Quran is a problem (a WTF type!). It might also be interesting to hear exactly how one takes the Quran out of a Muslim and what kind of person results from that surgery.

    Red, you have it right about covering. It is a form of branding.

  37. Jay….Ive been banned from many an Islamic/Muslim forum…and that includes when I was a Muslim…but didnt always agree with the “consensus”….Muslims, generally speaking, do not like dissention (sp) in the ranks.

  38. Shaykh al-Huwayni Explains the Islamic Doctrine of Offensive Jihad and Taking Sex-Slaves

    Shaykh al-Huwayni: ‘When I want a sex slave, I just go to the market and choose the woman I like and purchase her”

  39. Letter To Congress: Islamic Radicals? Or Fundamentalists?
    by D. C. Watson

    Office of the Honorable Peter King, United States Congressman, 3rd Congressional District (New York)
    Fax: 202-226-2279

    June 12, 2011

    Re: Scheduled hearings on “Radicalization” of Muslims in America

    Dear Congressman King,

    On June 20th, 2010 a letter was written to Congress concerning the widely unpopular idea of constructing a mosque in the shadow of the Ground Zero site in New York (a plan that thoughtful Muslims have also rejected). Contained in that letter were quotes from several Islamic religious leaders (Imams) in America:

    Imam Amir-Abdel Malik-Ali
    Masjid Al Islam mosque, Oakland, CA

    “We must implement Islam as a totality (in which) Allah controls every place… the home, the classroom, the science lab, the halls of Congress.”

    Imam Abdul Alim Musa
    Al Masjid mosque, Washington, D.C.

    “If you don’t give us justice. If you don’t give us equality. If you don’t give us our share of America. If you don’t stay out of our way and leave us alone, we’re gonna burn America down.”

    Imam Muhammad Al-Asi
    Former Imam at the Washington, D.C. Islamic Center

    “Now, all our imams, our public speakers, should be concentrating on militarizing the Muslim public … Only carrying arms will do this task.”

    Imam Omar Shahin
    Tucson, Arizona Islamic Center; President, North American Imams Federation; spokesman for the six ‘Flying Imams’

    “A Muslim must try his best to abide by the rulings of Sharia (Islamic law) whenever possible as much as he can. He should not allow himself to be liable to those western laws that contradict the clear-cut Islamic rulings.”

    Imam Siraj Wahhaj
    Masjid Al-Taqwa mosque. Brooklyn, N.Y

    “In time, this so-called democracy will crumble, and there will be nothing. And the only thing left will be Islam.”

    Imam Zaid Shakir
    Former Muslim Chaplain at Yale University

    “Muslims cannot accept the legitimacy of the existing American order, since it is against the orders and ordainments of Allah.”

    Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf:

    “I do not believe in religious dialogue.”

    A copy of this letter can be accessed here.

    Polls:
    Mosque at Ground Zero polling:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014737-503544.html

    http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2010/08/poll-nearly-70-of-americans-op.html

    Further review of these statements show that they do not veer far at all from the following comments made by Islamic religious figures overseas or from remarks made by other prominent Muslims operating in the United States:

    Imam Anjem Choudary
    British Muslim cleric:

    “One day the flag of Islam will fly over the White House.”
    Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris
    Sheikh ‘Ijlin Mosque in Gaza

    “We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again. The day will come when we will rule America. The day will come when we will rule Britain.”
    2) “America will collapse … we consider America to be our no. 1.”
    3) “Allah will drown the little Pharaoh, the dwarf, the Pharaoh of all times, of our time, the American president. Allah will drown America in our seas, in our skies, in our land… America will be destroyed.”

    http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=8468

    Abu Hamza al-Masri
    Imam in Britain

    “The real weapons of mass destruction are the desire for martyrdom… Half a million martyrdom shaheed is enough for Muslims to control the whole of earth forever. In the end of the day, Islam must control earth, whether we like it or not.”

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-10435138-bring-jihad-to-your-own-door.do

    Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis
    Imam at the Grand Mosque in Mecca

    Jews: “The scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs.”

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/06/blogging-the-quran-sura-2-the-cow-verses-40-75.html

    Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed
    Syrian-born British Muslim cleric

    “We don’t make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians… Only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value.”

    http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2005/07/britain-terror-warning-2-months.html

    Ahmad Nawfal
    Jordanian who has spoken at rallies held on American soil

    “If fundamentalist Muslims stand up, it will be very easy for us to preside over this world once again.”

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/569037/posts

    Abu Bakr
    Australian Muslim Cleric

    “I am telling you that my religion doesn’t tolerate other religion. It doesn’t tolerate. The only one law which needs to spread, it can be here or anywhere else, has to be Islam.”

    http://articles.cnn.com/2005-11-07/world/australia.terror.bakr_1_anti-terrorism-raids-jihad-abc-radio?_s=PM:WORLD

    Mohamed Elmasry
    President of the Canadian Islamic Congress

    “Any Israeli over age 18 is a legitimate target for suicide bombers because adult Israelis were required to do military service. They are part of the Israeli army, even if they have civilian clothes.”

    http://sheikyermami.com/2008/09/07/appeasing-canada%E2%80%99s-islamists/

    Omar Ahmad
    Council on American Islamic Relations

    “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth…”

    http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=19439

    Ihsan Bagby
    Council on American Islamic Relations

    “Ultimately, we (Muslims) can never be full citizens of this country … because there is no way we can be fully committed to the institutions and ideologies of this country…”

    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2170

    Nihad Awad
    Council on American Islamic Relations

    “I am in support of the Hamas movement”

    http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=19439

    Dr. Esam Omeish
    Muslim American Society

    “You have learned the way, that you have known that the jihad way is the way to liberate your land.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298278,00.html

    Shukri Abu Baker (Convicted of funding Islamic terrorism)
    Holy Land Foundation

    “I swear by Allah that war is deception… We are fighting our enemy with a kind heart… Deceive, camouflage, pretend you are leaving while you’re walking that way. Deceive your enemy.”

    http://www.anti-cair-net.org/FBItiesCAIRHamas

    Edina Lekovic
    Muslim Public Affairs Council

    From the July 1999 edition of Al-Talib, the Muslim News magazine at UCLA, when Lekovic was one of the managing editors: “When we hear someone refer to the great mujahid Osama bin Laden as a ‘terrorist’, we should defend our brother and refer to him as a freedom fighter…”

    http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2007/05/video_steve_eme.php

    Sami Al Arian (Pleaded guilty to conspiracy to provide services to Islamic terrorists)
    Former Professor, University of South Florida

    “Let us continue the protests. Let us damn America. Let us damn Israel. Let us damn their allies until death. Mohammad is leader. The Qur’an is our constitution. Jihad is our path…”

    http://www.investigativeproject.org/220/al-arian-victory-to-islam-death-to-israel

    Hatem Bazian
    University of California at Berkeley Lecturer

    “Well, we’ve been watching intifada in Palestine, we’ve been watching an uprising in Iraq, and the question is that what are we doing? How come we don’t have an intifada in this country?”

    http://www.meforum.org/1871/the-arab-israeli-conflict-debate

    Ibrahim Hooper
    Council on American Islamic Relations

    “I wouldn’t want to create the impression that I wouldn’t like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future…”

    http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=19439

    Julio Assad Pino
    Associate professor of history at Kent State University in Ohio

    Pino considers homicide bombers martyrs, the U.S. Armed Forces butchers, and is or was at one time part of an Internet blog that urges readers to join the Islamic resistance. Also in a Columbus Dispatch piece, Pino described himself as the “most dangerous Muslim in America.”

    http://www.dispatch.com/live/contentbe/dispatch/2006/04/21/20060421-A1-02.html

    While this issue is addressed, the dangerous and witless practice of political correctness should be switched off. Unconditionally, the American people have a right to know when any type of threat to their way of life presents itself so that they can prepare to defend it.

    Is it a “tiny minority” of “radicals” who have “perverted a great world religion” that all of these leaders in the Islamic communities here and abroad represent, or are they representative of Islamic fundamentalists who are simply adhering to their ideology as it has been prescribed?

    As a free society we are a tolerant people. Like everything else, tolerance has its limits, so should rigid, racist, sexist supremacist ideologues with a history of committing violent acts against innocent human beings when they don’t get their way qualify?

    If the United States Congress genuinely seeks unfiltered information regarding the issue at hand, it would greatly benefit itself and the nation by shunning the overbearing nonsense dispensed by organizations like the Council on American Islamic Relations, and trading in the crocodile tears shed by the Congressman from Minnesota for the testimony of the individuals listed below, who are capable of answering any lingering questions regarding Islamic scripture, Shari’ah law, and documented historical facts:

    Nonie Darwish
    Brigette Gabriel
    Robert Spencer
    Steven Emerson
    Wafa Sultan
    Daniel Pipes
    Walid Shoebat
    Aayan Hirsi Ali

    In closing, if the opportunity presents itself, please reiterate to your colleagues that this situation should not be viewed as a chance to score cheap political points, and that political affiliation aside, this is an American issue that impacts anyone who appreciates the freedoms offered here.
     
    Respectfully,
     
    D.C. Watson, United States

  40. Why not instead, just maybe, who knows, stop the hate and violence that Muslims do? How about ending the discrimination and persecution of non-Muslims in Islamic societies? Why not renounce the hundreds of verses in the Quran that offend and insult infidels?
    =======================================================

    @jay kactuz,

    Hi Jay, how are u doing? after long time we meet again here today. Hope we can do healthy discussion without abuse, name calling so that we can find little benefit out of our discussion. Very often I try to learn and improve myself by interacting people from all over the world in this same forum but often it end up in making blood hotter and more negative learning.

    Answer to ur first question, The world has seen enough abuse. Abuse of power, substance, office and authority for personal or sectional gains! It is not an exception to religion. We have also seen enough advocates of different religions trying to sell the most. In short, u can see the video itself in the topic and accept the existence of discrimination against Muslims. A Muslim also can ask how Muslims are treated in this world. First of all what is the need of such topic? Answer lies in the topic itself.

    Renounce Quranic verses? Muslims believe that Quran is from God (last book from God ) and no one has right to change it or renounce it.
    Whether one follow Quran or not or how he interprets is another thing.
    And this Qur’an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord
    of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which
    was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full
    explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) – wherein
    there is no doubt from the the Lord of the Worlds. This is what Muslims believes.

    I want to ask if u think that Quran is from God? If so, any human being has no authority to change it. If its not from God from where it came? What u think?
    I personally think that if any holy book be it Bible, or Quran or Taurat are not from God, we dont even need to follow it. Let’s talk about Quran-book itslef keeping aside 1000s of verses inside. Hope u will give ur opinion in positve way.

  41. I read the papers from my husband’s mosque and never do they speak against terrorist acts such as the killings in Pakistan done because of the Koran burning. They basically justified those killings.
    ————————————————————————–
    @Wendy,

    Which church or Bishop or Pop or Christian relgious body stood against bombing innocents women, kids in Iraq and making 10000s of women as small as 12 years old prostitute for survival? And which church stand against Palestenian killings?

    On the other hand, Islamic scholars and generally Muslims stand against killing innocents and terrorism. There is no justification by killing any innocents.
    But to see this we need to open our eyes without reservations. Unfortunately people dont like to see postive steps taken by Muslims:

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Fatwa+against+terroris&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=kBl&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&sa=X&ei=pO71TfaJNIWnhAe_ypjsBg&ved=0CCYQvwUoAQ&q=Fatwa+against+terrorism&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=7c9d59a3af05bed9&biw=1366&bih=614

  42. .but for Muslims faith is absolutely first and foremost and letting others know that you are Muslim (as opposed to being private about it)
    ——————————————-

    @Oby,

    Any1 identify himself/herself in xyz forms and what can be issue if any Muslim identify himself as Muslim?

    U pay attention to Muslims and Islam only and so u fail to see other side. Can u count 100 sikh men in ur life who dont identify himself as sikh? Jews also try to identify themselves by keeping beard, nuns also do same. Why question when a Muslim identify? I think tolerance is somehow lacking in human being.

  43. The only reason I have found that muslim women are inspired/ordered/threatened to cover is to proclaim that they are off limits to nonmuslim men…and the only reason muslim men are not told to do the same…is because they are allowed to go out and “conquer” nonmuslim women…and they cant do that if they are dressed as the “traditional
    —————————————————

    @Coolred38,

    I am sure what u are writing is different from what u know. For both men and women, to have relationship outside marriage is not allowed in Islam irrespective of her/his partner is muslim or non muslim. Hijab for men came first than hijab for women in Quran.

    We Muslim men are taught not to run after gals but of course all are not saints u will find elements of all types. Have a look if u dnt trust:
    ===============================================

    Conversion for marriage illegal: Fatwa from Deoband Madrassa

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Conversion_for_marriage_illegal/articleshow/3189995.cms

    Blasting the commonly held notion that Muslims woo Non-Muslim girls so as to convert them to Islam, Deoband has issued the Fatwa declaring that Conversions for the explicit purpose of getting married to Muslims, dont have religious sanction.
    ==============================================

    After reading this, I am not sure if u realise what u wrote is wrong and unacceptable generally

  44. Sometimes, its really sad that some nuts, gutter leeches, fanatic idiots who claim to be Muslims bombs and kill innocents and some Arab thugs torture women and common Muslims like Azad Ali Shah who has nothing to do with all these bull shits have to face the discrimination and questions from non-Muslims.

  45. I think the video is to make us step back and realize Muslims are one of us..they are doctors, firefighters, shoppers at the neighborhood grocery stores. I get that. I really do. But for those like in the Al Jazeera video who see Islam as hateful and scary, I doubt videos like these will really help. They will hear the voices speaking out against Islam and agree with them more than the images being shown here. The images from 9/11, Nidal Hasan, the Christmas Day underwear (would-be) bomber is too firmly planted in their minds for them to suddenly get the warm fuzzies about seeing Omar Ali and other “Muslim names” on uniforms and name badges of everyday Americans.

    At best they will acknowledge there are some good individual Muslims out there, but Islam – as a whole – still teaches hate for those who won’t submit to Allah. They don’t understand why Muslims come here (the immigrant ones, of course) when they can worship to their hearts content in Muslim countries.

    Things like this

    http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/middle-east/men-should-have-sex-slaves-says-female-kuwaiti-politician

    do not help. Thankfully this silly female politician did not win her election. Can you imagine?

    “The ruling was confirmed by “specialised people of the faith” in Kuwait, she said. “They said, ‘That’s right, the only solution for a decent man who has the means, who is overpowered by desire and who does not want to commit fornication, is to acquire jawari’.”

    Offices could be opened to run the sex trade in the same way recruitment agencies provide domestic labourers, Ms al Mutairi suggested.”

    It’s like the old-timey westerns when the older lady would run the brothel for the cowboys to visit when they were feeling especially, er, needy! Only this Kuwaiti thing was sanctioned by God!!

    “So there’s no shame in it and it is not haram, our Sharia law allows it,” she said.”

    Watch out Chechnya; they have their eyes on you!

  46. Islamic Radicals? Or Fundamentalists?
    Quotes from several Imams in America:

    “We must implement Islam as a totality (in which) Allah controls every place… the home, the classroom, the science lab, the halls of Congress.” – Imam Amir-Abdel Malik-Ali Masjid Al Islam mosque, Oakland, CA

    “If you don’t give us justice. If you don’t give us equality. If you don’t give us our share of America. If you don’t stay out of our way and leave us alone, we’re gonna burn America down.” – Imam Abdul Alim Musa Al Masjid mosque, Washington, D.C.

    Read the rest of the quotes at the link below:

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/06/d-c-watson-letter-to-congress-islamic-radicals-or-fundamentalists.html

  47. Is it reasonable for Americans to “remove their fear of Muslims in the USA” when so many other Muslims are scared of their fellow Muslims?

  48. @Susanne- ‘I think the video is to make us step back and realize Muslims are one of us..they are doctors, firefighters, shoppers at the neighborhood grocery stores. I get that. I really do. But for those like in the Al Jazeera video who see Islam as hateful and scary, I doubt videos like these will really help.’

    Yes, I get it too. Perhaps there ARE people out there that don’t realize that Muslims are real people that live among us. But then again there are also people that don’t read the news and have no idea what is going on in the world ,or why, and they have barely even heard of Muslims or what they are about.

    This My Fellow American website asks ‘Do you know a Muslim? Share your story through Youtube.’

    I’ve met many Muslims, do you think they would post my stories? (no, they are NOT all bad)

  49. Lynn, where I live there aren’t a lot of Muslims so I wouldn’t be surprised if many here have never met one. I didn’t until one found me online from Syria! :)

    You said: “I’ve met many Muslims, do you think they would post my stories? (no, they are NOT all bad)”

    It depends on if they are wanting truthful experiences or whitewashed ones, I guess. If their agenda is to paint all Muslims as good friends, then likely they won’t post your bad experiences with them. However, if their goal is to be honest in saying some people have outstanding relationships with Muslims, but not everyone does then I think they will post your stories.

  50. I am going to resist my desire to say something harsh to you Md…you have a right to your opinion but why is it that Muslims, in particular you on his blog never actually address the points brought forth? The more I communicate with Muslims the more I am convinced that there is a lack of ability to understand the nuances of an issue and separate out pieces and address those pieces. As if the critical thinking centers are turned off or something: However, even though I think your answers avoid directly the points I will only address your answers to mine.

    You said it to wendy but it was my question to her so it is fair game.

    Let me ask YOU: how much do you know about a church? Have you ever gone inside one and listened to what is said? Have you ever investigated via the internet what is discussed?

    If you think that the church as a whole is OK with killing, bombing and destruction then you are wrong. Do muslims at mosques ever pray for the other? and not to “see the light” of islam but for god to watch over them and for the people of the congregation to pray for them? In our church and others they do this regularly…yes for those in Iraq (and not only soldiers) and other parts of the world who are not christian. and NOT for them to convert to Christianity but for god to protect them and help them exactly where they are at religiously.

    What you don’t understand Md is that Islam is fundamentally different from Christianity in that a church or a Chrisitian group will help (for the most part) ANYONE in need…not just Muslim. If you walk in the door they don’t ask you to show your “membership card” in order to get help. Muslims on the other hand are all about helping other Muslims only…and that is the point. It is buried deep in our faith that we should love and help all…no matter the faith…even if they aren’t Muslim. THAT is a very fundamental difference. In that way your faith is far more “selfish” than mine.

    As for self identification:

    (and here is where the critical thinking gets a bit muddied on your part)

    nuns are religious people. That is their vocation. That is their life and “job” if you will. So for them to wear a “habit”(the nun costume) would be normal and expected. The same with an imam…one would expect them to wear a “costume” of sorts…we are not talking about religious people…

    We are talking about lay people…normal every day people. Having said that…the principle I mentioned would apply to anyone who self identifies as a “X” first. If a jew is wearing a prayer shawl or a Chrisitian is wearing a BIG cross or a sikh is wearing a turban it is hard to NOT see those things so automatically the religious element comes into play. Muslims in particular (of the three faiths) identify as Muslims first…before nationality, job, parentage etc. As coolred said they are part of a worldwide ummah that no other faith that I can think of replicates within their own faith…so Christians don’t feel a kinship to every christian on the planet for example. Yet Muslims in Austrailia feel personally insulted for something that might happen to Muslims in the USA. This “one for all and all for one” attitude is particularly strong and IMO particularly troublesome in Muslims. It gives Australian Muslims the right (in their minds) to feel like they can get involved in another countries Muslims issues…hence the bombings you see in one country in retaliation for things that have happened or are perceived as negative to Muslims in another.

  51. correction:

    “no matter the faith…even if they aren’t Muslim.”

    should be

    even if they aren’t christian

  52. @Oby,

    I dont know who dont have the ability to understand. The one who plainly say that “Muslims(1.5 billions) dont have ability to understand” or really the muslims themselves or the one who say that Mosques dont help or pray for non-Muslim but help/pray for only Muslims. A completely sick, hatred generalised statement!!

    Sorry to say this but U are one of those millions who live under the sky of darkness who dont see any good thing of Muslims and a victim of negative propaganda.
    U ask me when I went to Church. Yes I have many christian friends and I used to visit when I was doing my engineering. Many pray for world, many other do dating from churches and many other ends up with songs and music. After all churches/mosques are run by people of different types but not run by God directly.

    Now u should ask urself when u went to Masjid and how u spread such wrong info that Masjids/Mosque dont help non-Muslims.
    I asked which church stood against Iraq bombing based on Wendy’s generalised remarks that Muslims justify terroirsm or they dont talk against killing innocents.
    What I conveyed to her is that one Masjid or Church can not be example of all.

    Yes, thanks God “Muslims” have ability to understand as they are also human being like u.
    Here again let me tell u that every sikh has to wear turban if not he is against his relgion.
    He or she can never cut even hairs in whole life. Its against their relgion not to wear turban in daily public place or to cut hair.
    I am not talking abt relgious sikh people. And for ur info there is nothing like Islamic dress for Imam or non imam muslims. What Islam says is to wear modestly irrespective of who is imam or who is not. Islam doenst give authority of religion to xyz imam.
    If I have problem to see some1 with his/her relgious identity, I am the one who is intolerant but not the person who is following his relgion.

    ==============================================================

    Mosques starting donation drive for Japan relief efforts:

    http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_645824.html

    Religious groups and firms raise funds for Japan quake victims

    http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1117371/1/.html

    ====================================================================

    Yes again, Muslims, Masjids , Mosques help humanity and pray for humanity irrespective of relgion.
    Reminding again – “Muslims” have ability to understand as they are also human being like u.

  53. JS, you obviously don’t know it but churches stand up and speak against war and violence all the time. Outside of the ME people in general do not kill in the name of their religion and wars are not committed in the name of religion. Apart from the stupidness in Ireland you do not see Protestants blowing up Catholic people and their churches, and so on and so on. When people outside Muslim countries see battles between Shia and Sunni Muslims it is beyond comprehension and reaffirms the reasons for fearing Islam and those extremist fundamentalist followers of the religion.

    When war happens outside the middle east they are not ‘religious’ wars. Personally, I do not follow any religion and do not like organized religions of any kind. I am involved with Islam by marriage but I do not follow it nor will I ever follow it or any other religion. My personal opinion is that there would be more than a few Muslims drop away from the religion if they didn’t fear what would happen to them. Contrary to what many Muslims say about their religion (a religion of peace they say) I believe it is a religion of fear. When you are taught from the time even before you are born that you will go to serious hell should you not be a Muslim then it’s a fear based religion.

    My thoughts about the Koran not changing along with the times and people who believe every word written should be followed to day without question …. well, perhaps those people should have to live exactly as life was when the Koran came into being. Step away from all modern life and conveniences and weapons, etc. etc. etc. ………..

  54. @Oby,

    Religious identity is here and nothing to get scared…enjoy :)
    Burqa or religous identity or hijab is not big deal just a dress…

  55. Md…

    1. show me where I said 1.5 billion Muslims don’t understand..

    2. You said churches,pope etc do not speak out against killing and bombing (a very uninformed generalization on your part even though you call me uninformed and living under a dark cloud) I told you you were dead wrong. They do and often they speak on behalf of MUSLIMS that are killed and ask for prayers for them.

    3. As for self identification as a Muslim…READ what Bedu said…

    ” Take the Quran out of the element of Islam and just look at a Muslim as a person…as an individual.”

    I was saying that I don’t think that is as easy as it sounds because Muslims identify themselves as Muslims FIRST and everything that they do think and breathe is filtered through the Quran by their OWN admission. Islam is a way of life, remember? So HOW can I take religion out of it when they cannot? It is there whether I like it or not. So before you get all offended look at Muslims own words and actions and what they say about themselves.

    Now let me say this before you say it applies to every Muslim on the planet. If it weren’t for some really lovely people I know that are Muslims I would have a very dim view of Islam. If I believed everything that I saw on TV I would have a very dim view of Islam. If it weren’t for the fact that one of my daughter’s best friends is a Muslim and doesn’t treat her as the “other” I might have a dim view of Islam. I try to remember that there are a lot of wonderful people in the world that are Muslims…But that doesn’t negate how they treat women and nonmuslims in Muslim majority countries and like it or not a lot of that is what contributes to non muslims perception of Islam.

    It isn’t a matter of being scared about a Muslim claiming self identity…if one wants to claim it that is fine…but then don’t get pissed off when religion is part and parcel of the perception people have of muslims. You can’t have it both ways. ie: identifying as a Muslim and as part of the Ummah and all that comes with that and then be hacked off when others perceive you that way.

  56. As Walt Whitman pointed out….. Be curious, not judgmental.

    It seems, that the true intention behind this blog is misunderstood and being misused. I am sure Bedu’s aim was to provide a forum for exchanging ideas and bridging the ever widening cultural gaps, not providing a space for personal venting and therepy.

  57. @ Khadeejah – ‘As Walt Whitman pointed out….. Be curious, not judgmental.’

    I WAS being curious, curious why they didn’t show ALL the varieties of Muslims you can find in our country. Who was being judgmental? In what way were they being judgmental?

  58. Not you Lynn – your point was valid. But do go through the rest of the comments.

  59. Incidents like this, which happen with quite regularity, do not help convey a positive image of muslims in the US. Striking terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah, as directed by the Qur’an (8:60)???

    “Praise Allah. I’m going to kill the world” — Muslim woman makes bomb threat on D.C. Metro.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/post/bomb-threat-disrupts-red-line-service/2011/06/13/AGP52uSH_blog.html

  60. I did go through them after reading your comment and I didn’t really see anything ‘judgmental’ that’s why I asked. Or were you perhaps talking about Azad Ali Shah’s comments? Perhaps you do not know him as well as the rest of us but his comments are almost ALWAYS judgmental, angry and highly defensive. ;-)

  61. Sorry to say but it is very obvious that all the tough talkers here are quite incapable of taking a doze of their own medicine. You all go around passing sweeping blanket statements about everyone else (non-muslims included) – in fact anyone who differs from your world view – yes judgmental attitudes and statements – but get so hot and bothered and defensive if someone says the same about you! It is so easy to let go of a flood of words as long as you are typing more words than the next person per minute (and the same old tune being played over and over on each post Bedu shares) – yes by now we all know where you stand. Come up with something new, something constructive for a change and stop venting and hiding behind the same old rhetoric, yawn.

    Just because you say (from your so very subjective view point) that none of the comments above are judgmental, will not make them so. Sorry, I am only using the same condescending tone you all use so easily on everyone else, and clearly we all know that you will reply with the usual verbal, and highly repetitive tirade. Learn to take as good as you get.Does not feel good when someone uses the same tone with you now does it?

    “Antagonistic and destructive actions that characterize muslims everywhere”

    “Muslims follow the evil stuff in the Koran and live by it”

    “the vile verses in the Quran, the immoral deeds of Mohammad”

    “Muslims have no capacity for self reflection”

    “Muslims do not give any value to non muslims….. we are lower than animals in the Quran”

    “the more I communicate with the muslims the more I am convinced that there is lack of ability to understand the nuances of an issue………as if the critical thinking centers are turned off or something”

    @ Lynn – And you saw nothing judgmental here?

    @ the rest – I could go on quoting but what is the point – you all will let loose your usual barrage of
    repetitive, by now very familiar, nothing new or constructive, talking for the sake of talking, tirade, of the same old words and ideas…….initially I thought it was reserved for the muslims, but I have seen how you respond to anyone who disagrees or chooses not to see the world as you do.

    Now go on give it back in your usual way….from what I have seen of your very obvious pattern of thinking and responding, it will either be anger coupled with a million familiar words, or the, we are so hurt by her attitude and the things she said about us, line. Oh and of course there is always self pity and anger hiding the how dare she talk to us that way route…….we can be insulting (reference the quotes above), but how dare someone point it out or even worse use a condescending tone with us in return.

    So boring and too done.

  62. McLean woman ‘involuntarily committed’ in alleged Red Line bomb threat

    “[T]he woman said ‘Praise Allah. I’m going to kill the world,’ before throwing a backpack onto the train and exiting.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/post/bomb-threat-disrupts-red-line-service/2011/06/13/AGP52uSH_blog.html

  63. “We will be going from area to area, wherever the Government is going to put more money, and we will radicalise the youth before the Government gets there.

    “They want to create a docile brand of Islam but it is not going to happen.”

    http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/195533/Theresa-May-s-in-sights-of-fanatics/

  64. Sorry, Khadeeja, I see a conversation going on about a subject which was brought up by Carol. I’m thinking that perhaps you are mixing other posts and it’s comments with this one? Maybe you could take a specific comment that you have an issue with and help them understand where they are wrong in the light of ‘exchanging ideas and bridging the ever widening cultural gaps’ rather than just throw out random accusations as a means of ‘personal venting and therapy’? :-)

  65. Lynn…

    I recognize part of a comment I made which was

    “the more I communicate with the muslims the more I am convinced that there is lack of ability to understand the nuances of an issue………as if the critical thinking centers are turned off or something”

    Perhaps I didn’t qualify it enough for Khadeeja and others…

    I stand by my comment. I do find it very very frustrating to try to discuss a point with some of the Muslims on this blog…Md. is one of them. But I find it isn’t only this blog…I visit others and often I find that when one puts forth a statement about Islam…not a wide sweeping hateful one like “all muslims are terrorists” or something stupid like that, but one that expresses in a nuanced way what aspects are problematic or concerning, that in general, in my experience many muslims are not able to discuss a statement or aspect of islam that is of concern. Somehow it gets digested as “I hate islam and it should be wiped off the face of the earth” when no such statement was made. There is another blog where one of the commentators is particularly nasty (he is Muslim) EVEN when you have not put down islam as a whole but expressed critique of some aspect of it, he starts talking about every aspect of the west from war to prostitution when it has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand…it all feels very diversionary. Stick to the topic we were discussing and just because I express problems or issues I have with some of it doesn’t mean that I think it should be banned off the earth….and the fact that somehow it gets interpreted in such an over the top way is what makes me think that many Muslims are unable to critque and discuss islams issues openly and clear headedly.

    There are exceptions to this IMO…one being Khadeeja herself and Maggie who had not been on for awhile and a few others that have come by the blog and debated with us…some are still on the blog…such as Sandy (sorry Sandy don’t mean to embarrass you but I generally like the clear headed approach you have ) and others. But I do find that there are many more that are knee jerk protective of islam and are simply unable to see ANYTHING bad about it. To me that is ridiculous and self deluded…all faiths have good and bad aspects and recognizing that doesn’t mean you are defiling the entire faith or are any less of a believer. In fact IMO it is being a champion for the faith to rid it of the inevitable man made add ons that get mixed in…critique is never a bad thing if it can help a faith and islam is full of things to critique starting with all the cultural baggage that have become “required” in Islam that weren’t there 50 years ago.

  66. JS…thanks for the link…

    IF this man was not a muslim and was saying we are going to go throughout the country and radicalize the youth to over throw the government and put a new government in place people would not think twice about a police crackdown…but when he is a muslim saying that then they are oh so careful…

    I say that is BS. Whether you are out to cause conflict in the country via a militant form of your religion or via a governmental overthrow that is not rooted in religion or what have you you are purposely creating sedition perhaps bordering on treason. I don’t give a darn if it is in the form of religion or not…the clear intent and purpose it to radicalize people and turn them away from the countries values and cause conflict and trouble and unrest purposely. I think there should be no mercy for people like this…they should be treated as enemies of the state no less than if they bombed parliament because they don’t like policies. Their intent is to cause unrest and preferably at some point most likely a two part country….radicalized violent muslims vs nonmuslims/non radicalized muslims.

    ““They want to create a docile brand of Islam but it is not going to happen.”

    Sounds very much like a threat to me…a docile brand vs what? a violent brand?

    Treat them as enemies no matter how loud they scream about discriminating against their religion…it isn’t a faith… it is a political ideology that they are trying to push that is dangerous to everyone not muslim or muslim but not radicalized. End of story.

  67. Oby, I don’t know, I see that comment of yours as a valid observation of your own personal interactions.

  68. oby…from my long years of experience with muslims…very few of them have taken more than a token interest in learning beyond the basics of prayer, fasting, and how to emulate the prophet in eating, sleeping, etc…how to throw some Quranic ayats, hadith, Islamic phrases before or after a sentence etc etc…in other words, learn enough about Islam to put on a good show of being a follower of it (and I do not mean this in a derogatory way…I mean it like a baby that has leanred to walk in order to be mobile…but never bothers to learn to run…therefore is always forced to walk…and thus take longer to get anywhere…if that makes sense).

    When they (these surface level Muslims) try to answer/debate/defend Islam…they have the heat for it, the desire, the need, the belief that they should be defending it because it is their chosen religion etc (or born into religion if you will) but what they dont have is education concerning it. These knee jerk reactions come about because they are reduced to basically saying, I am right, you are wrong because I am a follower of the great religion of Islam, a believer in the perfect example of a man in the prophet, and therefore….maybe I cant argue you into the ground over this but I know Im right by default. (ok that’s rather simplistic but Im trying to be at this point).

    I guess what Im trying to say is….for a great many muslims, they follow the religion, they believe in it, they are proud to be a member of it, and for some will defend it against family, friends, and strangers (at the risk of losing those relationships) but at the end of the day….they know very little about it. Muslims by rote, by name only. Enough to put on a good show (if that) and not much more.

    In my many long years of interaction with Muslim and nonMuslim alike…I have often been both ashamed and amused at the level of ignorance about Islam by Muslims…and the level of knowledge about it by nonMuslims.

  69. Oby, my observations that Muslims who live in Muslim countries do not think outside the box very much. This is understandable as they have no comparisons. Muslims living secular countries and especially ‘western’ ones are confronted with different viewpoints constantly and may in fact do a bit more thinking about their own religion. They can see that non-Muslims can be good people and praying in a different way is not all bad. They DO find freedom in not having religious police or shariah law enforcing their behaviour and thoughts. Do you agree?

  70. @Wendy- ‘Oby, my observations that Muslims who live in Muslim countries do not think outside the box very much.’

    And my daughter who has lived in the US all her life? Since becoming Muslim she doesn’t think outside the box too much either. ;-) hmmmmm….

  71. Lynn, I should qualify my comment. I think I was referring to Muslims who move to secular countries. I find that people who convert to any religion are a whole other subject.

  72. Personal experience has taught me that those who put themselves into boxes…rather than are put there simply by birth or other factors outside their control…are the harder ones to convince/argue with/debate….that’s a whole other level of stubborn

  73. Media headlines just about every other day don’t help much towards projecting a positive image of muslims in the US: “Detroit – Muslim driver intentionally runs down and kills police officer” . According to various media reports, witnesses say the man behind the wheel, Saddam Mohsin, 30, of Buffalo/New York, rammed the officer intentionally.

    Here we go again with the merry-go-rounds of other recent negative news about muslims. New York City cabdriver Mohammed Azam ran over two of his passengers for no apparent reason. Another cabbie, Hassan Daly, described as a “devout Muslim,” plowed his cab into a crowd on a sidewalk in San Diego, injuring over 24 people. Mohammed Reza Taheri-Azar explicitly grounded his hit-and-run in the teachings of the Koran. Munir Muthana told the police who arrested him that “the Muslims will fix this country.” Omeed Aziz Popal, we are told, was suffering from stress from an arranged marriage. Ismail Yassin Mohamed, we are informed, was mentally ill, suffered from depression, and hadn’t being taking his medication. And Muhammad Teshale, according to “law enforcement officials,” “did it to be famous.”

    Coincidence or jihad? Certainly there are a lot of hit-and-run and incidents involving people hit by cars that have nothing to do with Muslims, but in the cases of media reports illustrated here, there is a degree of intentionality in these that we do not usually see.

    I think mosques around the US have to do a better job of teaching and preaching the peaceful side of Islam. Last week came new confirmation that mosques in the U.S. aren’t quite holding potluck suppers and teaching civic pieties. A new study has demonstrated that 80% of mosques right in this country are teaching jihad warfare and Islamic supremacism.

    Researchers Mordechai Kedar and David Yerushalmi reported in the Summer 2011 issue of Middle East Quarterly about a new survey that found that “51% of mosques had texts that either advocated the use of violence in the pursuit of a Sharia-based political order or advocated violent jihad as a duty that should be of paramount importance to a Muslim.” Another 30% of mosques in the United States “had only texts that were moderately supportive of violence,” while only “19% had no violent texts at all.”

    Read more at http://www.meforum.org/2931/american-mosques

  74. Tell me about it! LOL (but no, not really funny 8-))

  75. ‘…witnesses say the man behind the wheel, Saddam Mohsin, 30, of Buffalo/New York, rammed the officer intentionally.’

    I would just like to say, for those who complain about the media and it’s emphasis on portraying and pointing out Muslims in bad news and blah blah blah. I had read the article about this Mohsin guy and I have to tell you, it never mentioned Muslim in the least. Also, I saw him on the news being arraigned and he looked like a man with serious mental health issues (rocking his head constantly etc) and he was wearing a face mask and they said that he was wearing that because he kept spitting at everyone and still no mention of any religion even though he was probably trying to copy that Muslim woman who had recently been arrested for spitting on the dirty Americans.

  76. @Coolred -‘….that’s a whole other level of stubborn’

    is what I was replying to when I said
    ‘Tell me about it! LOL (but no, not really funny 8-))’

  77. http://youarenotsosmart.com/

    This article comes to mind when talking about changing someones opinion through debate etc…the only thing I disagree with in it is that it says you will never win an argument on-line so dont even try. Heck…I win them all the time…but the losers wont admit they lost.. :)

  78. http://youarenotsosmart.com/

    This article comes to mind when talking about changing someones opinion through debate etc…the only thing I disagree with in it is that it says you will never win an argument on-line so dont even try. Heck…I win them all the time…but the losers just wont admit they lost.. :)

  79. oops :(

  80. ‘Heck…I win them all the time…but the losers wont admit they lost.’

    ROTFLMAO!!! I hear ya girl friend!

  81. @Coolred,
    I like the way you think! ;)

  82. I’m glad ya’ll keep the comments lively here! Behave now….I’m heading off tomorrow for new chemo round 2 so I may not be online as much for a few days.

    Mother Hen Bedu

  83. Hey, Azad, glad to see you back. Hope you are OK. I’ve been busy digging up my sewer line. I live in an old house (1960) and sometimes things fall apart. I had a general toilet and drain stoppage and because the sewer line isn’t marked and because the city code at the time didn’t require a clean-out access point, I had to dig up the whole damn backyard to find the line. I feel like a gopher. I found it but it wasn’t where logic dictated. After finding the damn thing, I discovered it was “Orangeberg” pipe, another problem – and I had never seen that type before. Oh the joys of an old house. In the 50’s I would do construction work with my Dad and he used iron pipe and molten lead. Other than that, I have always used ABS (black plastic). I quote: “The useful life for an Orangeburg pipe is about 50 years under ideal conditions, but has been known to fail in as little as 10 years. It has been taken off the list of acceptable materials by most building codes.” (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg_pipe ).

    Anyway, I’ll think about your comments and if I have time later I throw a few words at them. I am now filling in the trench and replacing the bricks and pavers. Hopefully, I will have the sewer thing taken care of in two more days (except for the fact that the Orangeburg is still down there and at the end of its useful life and all I’ll probably have more problems but at least I can get a snake in the line. I have cut down 2 palo verdes and a bunch of oleanders that were contributing to the problem. Of course, I can only work after 6pm because too hot here and I work all day. If I have to dig up the line in the future and replace it, at least I know where it is now.)

    So if you need help with a sewer line, I am now an expert in Orangeburg pipe.

  84. No worries Carol, we are all very well behaved here. Good luck with your treatment, I hope everything goes smoothly for you and you feel well.

    Jay, oh man! Sucks to be you right now. I’m glad to see that you are able to find the bright spot regarding your digs ;-) Shall we start calling you gopher from now on? I bet you have soil that is easy to dig. In our yard we have clay and it is a pain to dig in. We had a leak in our basement wall and had to dig 6 ft down to the foundation to fix it and with heavy clay that is quite a chore. My husband’s parents house is a few miles away and their dirt has more sand in it and is easier to dig, which he had to do recently when we found a leak in THAT house. Fortunately it was a tri-level house so the dig wasn’t as deep only about 4 feet. Well, have fun and just be thankful that you are healthy enough to even do that work, eh?

  85. Hi Wendy…

    Yes I do agree that Muslims who move to secular countries are able to find freedom from Shariah and Muttawah. If they chose to take advantage of it, it is available to them. I do think, too, that there is a sector who moves to the west and are terrified that they might become “tainted” and so very much isolate themselves and cling to the “old ways”. Trying to exploit the system by having a better life financially without actually feeling a sense of ownership in their new country.I also see another aspect…it was brought forth by an imam here in the states who said that Muslims who came/come here to start a new life come for much the same reasons that anyone else would come…freedom to worship with no police breathing down your neck and for a betterment of financial situation. They came with good intentions which is how most Americans would assume they would come. He said that many of the mosques (not all) here have virulent preachers who use saudi literature which at a minimum is not kind to nonmuslims and at the worst very violently suggesting jihad. He said it is these people that can potentially be radicalized…though I am sure there are many that would not ever lift a finger to harm anyone…on the other hand they might also never feel like they are “American” either (or Canadian or English or whatever) due to these preachers scaring the heck out of them and telling them the “other” is their enemy.

    Having said that I would hope that the intelligent Muslim would look around and think that America..or lets say the West, more or less is fair to all, have laws to protect them (but not give them more rights than nonmuslims), they are able to partake of anything nonmuslims can etc…IF THEY CHOSE TO and that these people that the imams rail against are not so evil after all.

  86. This is certainly one of the most contentious – and interesting – posts we have seen here at American Bedu in a long time. A lot of the regulars are here and opinions are flying fast and furious. Wow!

    I want you all to stop, think, take a deep breath and continue what you are doing.

    Khadeejah, now wait a minute… There is nothing wrong with being judgmental. We all make decisions based on our understanding of things all the time. The only issue is if those judgments are based upon reality and facts. Those statements you quote are based either upon reality or conviction and I can back them up with facts.

    Lynn, I wish. Basically I live on top of an old German POW camp where the stupid US Army thought the soil was too hard to dig. Well, at the end of 44 the Germans dug a tunnel through this adobe clay soil to freedom and thus was the most famous prison camp escape in US History. It was mostly a comedy of errors. The German plan was to get down to the Salt River, a mile away, and steal a boat and float to Mexico – except that the Salt River is not really a river, just a dry bed. Anyway, it was a cold winter night and pretty soon POWs were knocking on neighborhood doors asking that they be sent back to the camp. The alkaline soil is hard but not too hard. I had to use a pickaxe to break up the soil. Even so, I don’t know which is worse, sand or clay. In another time, another life and another country, I remember trying to dig a hole in a sandy beach lot for a light pole and that is impossible – you dig, the sand sides collapse, the hole gets wider but not deeper. I am glad I can do this, too. I am grateful for the health I have, but not for my sake.

    Carol, you take care. We will try to keep not to do too much damage to the coop

  87. sounds like we all have our projects going on. Good luck with your yard Jay! I’m working with a contractor now on having my guest bathtub converted into a walk in shower. I live in an apartment compound so there are a lot of regulations that need to be met but hopefully it is going to happen.

    I awoke early and have a little bit of time before taking my shower, grabbing my ‘chemo bag’ and heading over to the hospital. I get myself there okay but I’ll have a friend collecting me when it’s over.

    I guess I better set a good example and talk about the subject of the post. There is a growing fear of Islam around the world but not more so than perhaps within the USA. I see in some an identity struggle on whether they are Muslim or American first. Yet ask many Christians that same question and there is also a struggle on which to answer first.

    We really need to look at ourselves as a common group of people who’s mutual bond is that we have chosen to live, work and raise families in America. Rather than talk on the religious aspects of these decisions maybe instead talk about the gains, losses and distinctions of raising families in America today.

    I’d really like to just challenge every Muslim and non-Muslim to go out and speak to one another on anything BUT faith or religion. Just take a moment to talk whether it be the weather, food, gas prices…there’s always something!

    I try to get away from labeling people with categories.

  88. You want us to talk to Arabs about the gas prices? Really?! LOL

  89. I think the ball is in the Muslim court. Prove, with real facts, that what Pat Condell says in this video is not true.
    And then we can talk about removing the ”fear” of Muslims.

  90. @ Jay – “There is nothing wrong with being judgmental” – I agree with that, provided everyone practices what they preach. The muslims and the non muslims spend time accusing each other of being judgmental towards each other all the time and we don’t need to back this statement up with facts as it is a well established tradition from both sides to begin with. If both groups actually did start extending the courtesy of understanding that “we all make decisions based on our understanding of things all the time” (yes provided they are based on fact” )- I am sure there would be more head way. But in reality, we all know that we rarely do this.

    Sorry, not all the statements above are factual as they are too broad in their scope, such as…….”muslims have no capacity for self reflection ” meaning ALL muslims have no capacity for self reflection. I know for a fact that statment is wrong, and far from factual. Even if one muslim can self reflect that makes this statment wrong, and I believe offensive to everyone out there who is muslim and self reflects regularly. This is just one example that I am using but I could ofcourse re quote each sentence and then refute, but we are all intelligent people and can catch the drift ;) As for it being ok to be judgmental – when I first came on the blog and got interiewed by Bedu, I just gave my opinion about something and was accused of sounding judgmental. As I said, the courtesy has to extend both ways.

    @Lynn – Basic logic – obviously I was also refering to other posts and comments – I made that quite clear when I said ” Old tune being played over and over on each post Bedu shares”. That was one of the major points that I was making! How can anything be repetative unless previous examples are included as reference points!!?? I don’t think that my comment could have been any clearer. But you still have not answered my question of how you could have read any of the above quoted statments as being non judgmental. The fact that there is nothing wrong in being judgmental now withstanding, as we first have to establish the fact that they are judgmental to begin with.I hope this was clear enough for you :)

    @ Oby – thank you for communicating and qualifying your/the statement that I quoted. You must understand that what you said – majority/minority muslims being capable of critical thinking or not aside, and your personal experiences aside – came out as sounding affensive, even if you did not mean it too.

    I am very glad that you pointed one thing out…. “all the cultural baggage which have become “required” in islam..”.

    Amazing that you caught on to this aspect of Islam – well done. This statement of yours is a very important one. The cultural aspect – relatively newly joined to the over all dynamics of current Islam as it is practiced and understood by so mnay muslims – is something that surprisingly most muslims are either not aware of or choose to ignore. Let alone the importance of this being recognized and noted by non muslims. Throw into this equation the merging or symbiosis of Nationalism into Islam and things are pretty darn confusing right now for many and it is very difficult to sift out the pure spirituality aspects of Islamic doctrain, the practice ritual parts, from the cultural baggage and the motivations of Nationalism. I would love to have a disscussion about this with you one of these days – as I have been (frustratingly) trying to show the importance of this and the division of spiritual islam from all this, to many muslims and non muslims – without much head way.

    But for now I will be signing off as my two brats have just finished with their school year and I am going to start indugling in theirs, but more importantly my husband’s and my summer vacation ;)

    It is always interesting to read everyone’s comments and I hope you all have a wonderful summer :)

  91. Upon meeting someone it would never occur to me to start speaking to another person about their religion. In fact I wouldn’t ask about anyone’s religion unless I felt very comfortable with them about asking. Do Americans (or others) really stop and ask a Muslim, upon first meeting, about their religion??? I suppose there are people who would do that. Having said that apparently my husband is asked quite frequently if I am Muslim or if I intend to become one. That I think is rude. The odd person has asked me directly but most Muslims I’ve met, if not asking my about Islam or converting, will ask me if I believe in God. That is something I’d never consider asking another person unless we were having a discussion on the subject so Muslims.
    Carol, you are right though. People who fear Muslims really need to go out and meet and perhaps befriend some so they can see they are just like everybody else and that works the other way around, too. Muslims need to meet and mix with non Muslims to find out they are not immoral and ‘godless’ people.

  92. I second what Wendy said – all of what she said.

  93. Khadeejah, you confuse the hell out of me! lol

    You come on here scolding people for being judgmental (when they were just discussing their personal observations) and now you are agreeing with Jay that there is nothing wrong in being judgmental?

    I hope you and your family enjoy your summer vacation.

  94. @ Lynn – I told Jay I agree with him, provided, everyone treats everyone the same way. Once everyone is allowed to voice their opinion strongly, without any bias, then those opinions will stop coming out as/or sounding judgmental.So long as everyone can take as good as they give. There was a clear proviso attached to my agreeing with Jay.

    Thank you, and I hope you enjoy your summer too :)

  95. As long as we are treating the interpretation of “Judgmental” as “decisions based on our understanding of things” – I quote Jay here.

    Within the frame work of this interpretation no would would feel that they were being judged. Let the hard hitters on the blog begin there and keep it even.

  96. 1. show me where I said 1.5 billion Muslims don’t understand..
    —————————–

    @Oby

    u said “The more I communicate with “Muslims” the more I am convinced that there is a lack of ability to understand the nuances of an issue and separate out pieces and address those pieces. As if the critical thinking centers are turned off or something”.

    This is completely generalised statment pointed to a community which consists of 1.5 billion human beings – “Muslims”. Kindly replace “Muslims” with “Chrisitans” in ur statement and check the taste. Or Imagine a Muslim like me giving such statment abt Christians – “lack of ability to understand”, “critical thinking centers are turned off”. Amazing thing is u dont still realise that such statement is unacceptable and hatred oriented.

    2. I never said chistians/churches/popes dont stand against Iraq bombing and killing of innocents. I asked “which Church/pope stood against” to a member who said that Mosques dont stand against killing innocents and justify it and they dnt help people. I intentionally asked this question and was waiting for her reply(I new that she will reply that churches stand against injustice) so that I can explain her that we can not generalise and give a plain statment based on activities happend in one Mosque/Church run by a group of people but not God directly.

    But, before her reply u jump and started spewing venoms like “Muslims dont have ability to understand”,
    “your faith is far more “selfish” than mine”,
    “Muslims on the other hand are all about helping other Muslims only”

    What u say abt this? I showed u how Mosques help the humanity?
    Which and how many mosques u have visited? What imams say during friday Khutba?

    Kindly note that I entered very late in the discussion. People were jumping up and down in antagonism and making plain judgemental statement and supplementing each other by bringing one incident, one link, one mosque(ONLY NEGATIVE NEWS). Amazingly u joined the celebration and didnt find any issue with any other post and u found ur objection with my post – ur first objection in the discussion(if I am not wrong). And u even resisted ur desire to say harsh words to me. See how easily offended u are when u saw my reply only and enjoyed/supplemented rest of the negative propaganda.

    u asked me if I have visited church. Imagine if I or a Muslim say Church is all about sex, kissing, dating, sex between priests and nuns, paedophile, conversion and making laughing stock by bringing links and based on what I know. But, I know Churches are run by human beings and many good things happen in churches also. So, generally Muslims and myself dont take that negative example to generalise whole churches or christianity unlike people do against Islam/Muslims by bringing ONLY NEGATIVE NEWS WITHOUT SINGLE GOOD NEWS ABT ISLAM/MUSLIM as u see in this forum.

    Kindly note that Muslims invite any human being who pass in front of Mosque during ramdan fasting time and eat togather(I am not sure abt typical Muslim countries like Saudi or Kuwait where non-Muslims are hardly seen). Muslims invite non Muslims and u will be surprised that non-Muslims even donate in Mosque’s donation box when they leave after Ramdan fasting. My parents give our business to non-Muslim neighbours. We dont see the relgious identity of the person when we give “SADQA”. My bro, my father, I distributes food coupon to poor kids and women who live in slums without checking their religious identity. On every EID u will see more non-Muslim freinds and neighborus than muslim freinds eating togather in our family.

    Believe it or not, let me tell u an incident. I was taking interview for technical round to hire final year students in an Engineering College. I was suggested by Head of HR to have more expectation from M.Tech (Master of Technology) students than B.tech (Bachelor of Tech). I didnt select a handicapped M.Tech student as I was trying to follow instruction given to me strictly and I was new in the industry. I discussed personally with the HR and she told me I didnt the right thing. He was non-Muslim. I regret for my whole life to think why I didnt select him and give him a chance by including him among those 50 successful candidates. What I want to say is Muslims are also human and they surely dont enjoy they suffereing of any other human being irrespective of relgion.

    And there are millions of Muslim families and Muslims like me and my family in this world. So, to say muslims help only Ummah, Islam/Muslims are selfish is completely hatred and baseless.

    Also note that inside mosque we pray for the peace in this world, we pray to show right path to those who have taken arms and kill innocents. Imam advise muslims to behave nicely and work hard for peace and harmony. There are many circumstances where imams are removed due to lack of their enthusiasm. Muslims dont handover Islamic authority to some imams or scholar completely without question. We always question their knowldge, credibility, argue their statement and ask to prove from Quran or Hadith in context. Again all differs from person to person, some are fanatic, some are knowledgeble, some are peace lovers, some are criminal minded, some are quite helping and selfless..not all imams/priests/chirstians/Muslims are saints and we cant make conclusion based on one incident or one imam/church/priest/mosque.

    3. As for self identification as a Muslim…

    I fully agree ur explanation regarding what Bedu said. But, u added spices further. U said statments like – Muslims are the only group who show identity first and said abt relgious privacy.

    U said –

    “for Muslims faith is absolutely first and foremost and letting others know that you are Muslim (as opposed to being “private” about it)”

    U further said –

    “(and here is where the critical thinking gets a bit muddied on your part)….We are talking about lay people…normal every day people not relgious people…”

    Kindly note here. Now u say here that normal every day people dont show relgious identity except Muslims.

    U further said-
    “Muslims in particular (of the three faiths) identify as Muslims first…before nationality, job, parentage etc….”

    So, I simply said that 100% common normal Sikhs also wear turban and show their identity in public place, in job, market, airport. There is no need for hiding identity and make it private.

    Do I really need go through critical thinking course again even though I studied for MBA entrance exam :)

    PS: I may or may not reply back on this same thing. I hope I will be excused I dont like to spend more precious time in arguments without result and fight in silly matter. Better if we focus on some more constructive discussion as the topic says by analysing good things instead of of only bad things.

  97. “Antagonistic and destructive actions that characterize muslims everywhere”

    “Muslims follow the evil stuff in the Koran and live by it”

    “the vile verses in the Quran, the immoral deeds of Mohammad”

    “Muslims have no capacity for self reflection”

    “Muslims do not give any value to non muslims….. we are lower than animals in the Quran”

    “the more I communicate with the muslims the more I am convinced that there is lack of ability to understand the nuances of an issue………as if the critical thinking centers are turned off or something”

    @ Lynn – And you saw nothing judgmental here?

    ————————————————-

    @Khadeejah Raja,

    Please add following points too..

    “your faith is far more “selfish” than mine”,
    “Muslims on the other hand are all about helping other Muslims only”
    “Muslim’s critical thinking centers are turned off”
    “Muslim women wear hijab to protect from non-Muslim men and Muslim men dont wear to conquer non-Muslim gals”

    And respected ladies Lynn and Oby find me judgemental, offensive and not those who gave above judgemental statements.

    I would like to let u know that there were so many Muslim members here who love this forum of Bedu and wanted to have healthy discussion. But becoz of such hatred attitude of people who discuss ONLY bad things of Islam/Muslim with open hatred judgemental statments, they are not active today inspite of their love for this forum. Just see here how many brought links abt Muslims supporting terrorism but no 1 brought single link that shows Muslims’s stand against terrorism inspite of endless effort of Muslims on this issue. No one says that Muslims also help humanity. I am sad to think that one day this forum will be completely hatred field without single Muslim. I pray that that may not happen.

    Bad apples are in every society, community, relgion. Discrimination exists in every part of world in the form of caste, religion, race, social status and plenty of abuse of power. Muslims are not exception. Muslims face discrimination and harrassment if every part of wrold in office, school, market, public forum. This topic and video proves that.

    But, U will not find Muslims abusing other relgion, burning Bible or Gita or abusing Jesus, mockery of Jesus in the form of cartoon or abusing any other’s God unlike people insult and abuse Islam, Mohammad. I am not saying all Muslims are saint but today’s general trend. Its questionable and need to think who are really tolerant and who are not.

  98. In this world, hatred among same humans happens becoz of following type of people/group:

    1) Fanatic, lunatic, incompetent so called Muslims like Taliban who does more harm to Muslims.

    2) Media who always make mountain out of a mole hill if its negative news abt Islam/Muslim and publish without verification.

    3) Complete hatemongers who spread lies, negative propaganda, who turn a good thing into worst, for whom one negative thing about Islam/Muslim is good enough to wash 1000 other good things, who will always bring only negative things abt Islam/Muslim and never ever bring one SINGLE POSITVE NEWS abt Islam/Muslim.

    4) Pseudo-Secularists, very smart people who try not to speak very harshly/negatively but enjoy the celebarion and supplement when they discuss negative things abt Islam/Muslims. They speak like haa..is it? I also met like this..I also saw one Muslim like this..he did this..I also saw one site…one imam..always supplementing the deeply rooted hatred.

    5) Common people who always trust media and just think in mind that yeah Islam/Muslim is evil but dont spread or celebrate.

    6) Complete peace-loving non-Muslims who feel sad to see what is going on in this world, who knows that world projects only bad thing abt Islam/Muslims and misunderstanding is created. Who try to raise one positve thing abt Islam/Muslim to make bridge for peace but their voice is too low to be heard.

    7) Most dangerous group is those who work 24×7 to spread and create fake news, fake site abt Islam/Muslim and world abuse Muslims/Islam based on that fake news/site. Lets see some:

    a) Ex-Muslim preacher exposed as fake:
    A prominent Christian preacher that reportedly converted to Christianity from Islam has come under fire for making suspicious claims about his Muslim past.

    http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/130354.html

    b) Gay Girl in Damascus hoaxer acted out of ‘vanity’

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/13/gay-girl-damascus-tom-macmaster

    As george galloway has put : “So Amina the Damascene lesbian turned out to be Tom MacMaster, a Scottish American agent of disinformation. How many other plots are there?”

    c) Muslim girl, 19, ‘stoned to death after taking part in beauty contest’

    But in reality, victim is actually a 19 year-old Christian woman killed after sexual harrasment by Bilal Gaziyev, 16, a Crimean Tatar. And world media copied this news and published in local languages.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392454/Muslim-girl-Katya-Koren-19-stoned-death-beauty-contest-Ukraine.html

    d) Malegaon Bomb Blast Trail: Whatever Happened To The ‘Fake Beard?’

    Bombing by non-Muslim with fake beard to show that it was done by bearded, fanatic Muslim terrorist.

    http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-gatade071106.htm

    See how people use Islam to spread negative propaganda. And no one discuss such henous activity of non-Muslims who work 24×7 to malign Islam/Muslims and spread more n more hatred. They are busy in discussing bad things abt Islam/Muslims. I expose such things and shows truth and for this people call me “defensive”. Imagine how this world live in hypocrisy.

  99. @jay kactuz ,

    hehe nice to see u…and hear abt ur sewage line…Its nice to discuss some other things some time rather than relgious matters. Have a nice time :)

  100. “Yes I do agree that Muslims who move to secular countries are able to find freedom from Shariah and Muttawah”

    ——————————————————

    @Oby, just curious to know how many Muslim countries are there in the world and how many have shariah law and do Muttawah law?

    What I know is only 18% of world’s Muslim population live in whole Arab countries.

  101. Really appreciate Carol’s advice. Untill and unless u dnt do freindship and talk to a non-Muslim or Muslim u will never know that they are good or bad. Go out and start making friendship not one or 2 (who may found to be hatemonger or unfreindly or already scared person) but more people

  102. @Azad

    what advice would you give to someone who doesn’t have a good personal experience with muslim(s) in real life and on the internet?

  103. Azad…I lived in a Muslim/Arab country for over 23 years. One of the favorite past times in that country was to bash Americans and the American way of life. My children would come home from school upset because, as children with dual nationaility, they weren’t sure how they should react to people putting down and slandering where their mother came from…which meant slandering their mother. Once I became a Muslim….these same people seemed to have no problem at all bashing and slandering the women, society, culture etc of America even while I sat among them…assuming that my alliegance had now changed from American to Muslim therefore I supported this gross generalization. I have forgotten the number of arguments I got into with people (women mostly) who were absolutely upset with me for not supporting them in their generalizing and fingerpointing of ALL of America…because NOW I was Muslim…one of them…etc etc etc

    So nonMuslims are not the only ones who can generalize, group whole nations, groups etc into one category or be judgemental.

  104. A Muslim is not Killed for the Murder of a Non Muslim
    by Hassan Malik

    Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 111: Narrated Ash-Sha’bi: Abu Juhaifa said, “I asked Ali, ‘Have you got any book (which has been revealed to the Prophet apart from the Qur’an)?’ ‘Ali replied, ‘No, except Allah’s Book or the power of understanding which has been bestowed (by Allah) upon a Muslim or what is (written) in this sheet of paper (with me).’ Abu Juhaifa said, “I asked, ‘What is (written) in this sheet of paper?’ Ali replied, it deals with The Diyya (compensation (blood money) paid by the killer to the relatives of the victim), the ransom for the releasing of the captives from the hands of the enemies, and the law that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for the killing of (a disbeliever).

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/003.sbt.html#001.003.111

    * If a non Muslim (disbeliever) kills a Muslim he will certainly face Qisas, the death penalty. This is a double standard.

    * This law is in effect a license to kill non Muslims. This is part of a complete and through subjugation of non Muslims, where they have to live in fear of being killed at anytime.

    * There is no alternative penalty mentioned in Islamic sources for a Muslim who kills a non Muslim. This could be left as open and allowed as Muslims would like.
    .

  105. Coolred38,

    I dont deny what u said even though I havent seen such level of hatred in my real life. I believe it happens in those countiries like Arab world with exception to Lebanon where they dnt see CHristian and what they see is how Bush bomb and kills innocents and they may see whole American as Bush’s christians. Same case happens in western countries or with people who never ever encounter Muslim in their real life but hear and see in news only.

    I havent visited Arab countiries except Morocco in my life. But, what u say doesnt happen in Muslim countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey where they mingle with people from various cultures and faith.

    We Muslims ourselves do not like many things happening in Arab world. We say that they use religion for convenience. I am not generalising but it happens due to some elements.

    My little sister in Law college do hot argument with me and my another Muslim friends. She says when US killed 50,000 innocents in Iraq, Afghanistan thats ok and its not terrorism. When a gunmen kills 20 in US University its ok and not terrorism but when a crime is done by a Muslim then he is Islamic terrorist. When Saddam killed 40 people he is criminal and when Bush killed 50,000 its democratic.

    Even though we dont directly nullify her points. We advise her that one bad thing can not be justified by another bad thing. I ask her is it ok if some1 attack her becoz I did a crime? In short, u can not kill any innocent for the crime done by other. period. This is how we argue and advice

    So, what i can say is all these misunderstanding is due to lack of interaction. And we need to accept the existence of misunderstanding, misinterpretation, injustice, abuse of power, negative propaganda etc. We need to stand for justice instead of giving justification for crimes.

  106. @Kasia,

    If some1 doesnt have personal experience he will have to mingle and do freindship. Very often a person may express communally or harshly or angrily to prove his points in debate like this forum when in reality he is not. Better make freindship in real life if not from social sites but not from debating sites :)

  107. @Azad

    you didn’t answer my question at all. please read again. i asked about your advice to someone who DID have personal encounters/knows muslims/muslim friends, talked to them about religion and islam in general and that experience was far from positive.
    it also applies to internet encounters. what is your advice then?

  108. ‘My little sister in Law college do hot argument with me and my another Muslim friends. She says when US killed 50,000 innocents in Iraq, Afghanistan thats ok and its not terrorism. When a gunmen kills 20 in US University its ok and not terrorism but when a crime is done by a Muslim then he is Islamic terrorist. When Saddam killed 40 people he is criminal and when Bush killed 50,000 its democratic.
    Even though we dont directly nullify her points.’

    You don’t nullify her points because you CAN’T. Don’t you see that? Sounds to me like the conversation is American bashing much like Coolred was describing. :-)

    Seriously, you say you are educated and able to think because you studied for MBA entrance exam yet you don’t know the difference between a WAR (to take out terrorists that attacked US first) and terrorism. I bet if we had some Iraqi Kurds or Shia on-line here they would be pretty damned disgusted with your making light of what Sadaam did to them and others when you try to claim that he killed 40 people. Seriously? WTH? Why in the world have we gotten thousands upon thousands of them in MY country to escape him and his terrorist ways WAY before any war there? Why would you even say something like ‘When a gunmen kills 20 in US University its ok and not terrorism’. It’s OK? Really? Also, please remember that these are not AMERICAN wars, they are NATO wars so why should Bush get all the credit?

    ‘We Muslims ourselves do not like many things happening in Arab world’

    That sounds a bit like generalizing to me. You can’t speak for all Muslims, can you? If it were oby that said that you would jump all over her! LOL

  109. Azad…

    I cannot rehash all the same points again. I will try one last time to explain my position…

    No one faith has all bad people including Islam. I can only go by my experience which is mostly through english language blogs. As I said, with some exceptions such as Kahdeejah, Sandy and a few others my debating has not been very fruitful EVEN WHEN I am pointing out one aspect of Islam or islamic practice I find troublesome and not denigrating the entire faith. Most (not all) of the ones I have encountered are not able to argue any point about islam objectively. I explained this in my clarification post to Kadeejah. The fact that these blogs are ENGLISH language, by default says to me that the Muslims who participate on them most likely (if they are not native English speakers) have some measure of education and intelligence to be able to even debate in a foreign language. I KNOW they have intelligence and a capacity for understanding or they couldn’t have gotten a degree in a foreign language…so they have some level of capacity to think abstractly or at least critically. Yet, when a topic about Islam is brought up, if I make a particular point it should be able to be understood clearly without thinking that I am being hateful about the entire faith…but when it comes to islam I find most cannot even admit anything that might be wrong or problematic. If they can think critically about other things why are they not able to understand a point about islam I am trying to make?

    Example: You say to me ” The Catholic faith is in a lot of trouble and viewed around the world in a negative light due to the fact that priests have committed some pedophilic atrocities against children. What is wrong with the leaders of the religion? Why do they allow this atrocity to be perpetuated?”

    I, as a rational thinking person would not launch into an elaborate explanation to protect the faith or the idiots who perpetrate this crime. Instead, I can recognize what you say has validity and truth and it needs to be changed, stopped, rectified and I would even advocate putting these guys in jail. Why aren’t many muslims able to take a clear stance on things that are problematic instead of calling the messenger islamophobe?

    As for self identifying as a muslim first…how many muslims would name something else as their first identifier? (father, student, American, etc.) I have read many times where a muslim has written that they are a muslim first and foremost. There have been polls among muslims aked how they identify themselves and the majority say Muslim before American.

    From the Pew report:

    “Religion is central to the identity of European Muslims. With the exception of Muslims in France, they tend to identify themselves primarily as Muslim rather than as British, Spanish, or German. In France, Muslims are split almost evenly on this question. The level of Muslim identification in Britain, Spain, and Germany is similar to that in Pakistan, Nigeria, and Jordan, and even higher than levels in Egypt, Turkey, and Indonesia. By contrast the general populations (nonmuslim) in Western Europe are far more secular in outlook. Roughly six-in-ten in Spain, Germany, and Britain identify primarily with their country rather than their religion, as do more than eight-in-ten in France.”

    Here is the chart:

    In America an american will rarely ask you your faith. For us it is private…the opposite of islam in which many muslims consider themselves part of a worldwide ummah…and how to know if someone else is part of it? Certainly not through psychic ability…but asking.

    Can I walk up to any mosque, tell them I have no money or food and expect to be helped? Not only with food but with job help and perhaps a place to live? Is there a wide policy that Muslim zakat will go to help anyone? A church will help anyone regardless of faith through the tithing (the equivalent of zakat) for Christians.

    As for not disgracing a bible… I am sure many have been used for toileting purposes ( I have read that one a couple of times), thrown in the trash in some islamic airports and have been defiled in many ways. If a muslim wants to burn an entire library of bibles, I don’t care because for Christians a bible is words and paper and ink…it isn’t God. It is simply a book…a book filled with words that are divinely inspired but god did not touch any of these bibles. And if more are needed they can be reprinted…

    Finally…believe it or not I know muslims personally who would disagree with you on this point:

    “Muslims dont handover Islamic authority to some imams or scholar completely without question. We always question their knowldge, credibility, argue their statement and ask to prove from Quran or Hadith in context.”

    These muslims know that many lousy imams are out there and are the ones radicalizing many people and they are pretty ticked off about it and can recognize that there is something lousy going on in Islam with lots of cultural stuff.

    Disclaimer: I don’t mean ALL muslims or ALL of islam in this statement. If I thought it was all I would want to ban islam…which of course I don’t so I understand there are shades of grey everywhere…

  110. correction: Instead of :

    There have been polls among muslims aked how they identify themselves and the majority say Muslim before American.

    American should be European…

  111. You don’t nullify her points because you CAN’T. Don’t you see that? Sounds to me like the conversation is American bashing much like Coolred was describing. :-)

    Seriously, you say you are educated and able to think because you studied for MBA entrance exam yet you don’t know the difference between a WAR (to take out terrorists that attacked US first) and terrorism.
    —————————————————————————————————
    @Lynn,

    Amazing. U are not satisfied when we advised and said “ONE BAD THING CANT BE JUSTIFIED BY ANOTHER BAD THING”? U want me to say that yes only saddam wrong but bush is right? When did I support saddam? Can u plz read again ONE BAD and ANOTHER BAD? U will be happy if I said “Yes sister u are right, terrorsim is justified becoz US killed 50,000 innocents and ruined entire country? See “Fahreninheit 9/11″. will u say the director is also US bashing?

    When was that US took out terrorists? U are supporting that war? Such a double standard. Global terrorism started since Gulf War -I. Creating Taliban, Al-Qaida and to train them is taking out terrorists? Who trained and financed Taliban and Al-Qaida?

    For me that war was abuse of power at cost of innocents life. Killing innocent is NOT ACCEPTABLE be it war or terrorism. Amzaingly u dont have the capacity to condemn those illegal wars but I have the capacity to condemn both.

    When I generalised when I said We dont like “MANY THINGS” happening in Arab world? I dnt like the rule to ban woman from driving..we dont like how women rob men and want to live like princesses whole life with maids, servants left right and poor men cant marry and any woman reject him as he cant pay hefty dowry..we dont like the man subsequnetly taking revenge of what she took as hefty dowry and so on. They make marriage more complicated and difficult. So whats problem ? Is it generalising? Did I say I dnt like ALL THINGS or ALL ARABS or what? I said agsinst misuse of relgion. Please leave my critical thinking with me for a few min and check if others are also missing this :) Cheers..

  112. @Kasia,

    IN that case keep ur friendship aside and his relgious opinion aside. U need to deal with him/her socially not imbibe his/her religion. Deal with him socially and do freindship in that way. It depends on person to person again..One’s opinion may not be same as another one just becoz they share same relgion.

  113. @JS,

    Lets stop this old crap please. A Hadith or Quranic context should be taken in context of that time based on what circumstances it was revealed/said. In which Muslim country, a Muslim is not punished for killing a non-Muslim? Why dnt they follow the Hadith u quoted? Arent they Muslim ?

    So, lets keep all these crap aside. I can show 5000 Bible verses which talks abt violence and against non belivers. Moses PBUH destroyed non-Believers, Jesus PBUH cursed non belivers and said that they will be in hell fire. Islam is not exception. We need to see things in context of that tribal animalism of the time. Just not to take out a verse without seeing the terms and conditions and context.

    Please reply same question I asked to Jay. What do think who wrote Quran? We Muslims think its from God. Then who has right to renounce it? Lets discuss whole book Quran first keeping aside verses inside it.

  114. I recently found this site and read this article just now…it touches on some things being discussed here on this thread (and perhaps another thread given how it mentions expression of art, etc…)

    http://muslimmatters.org/2011/06/14/im-a-mooz-lum/

  115. Azad Ali Shah, I am not here to debate whether or not the war is justified or whether or not ANY killings in the course of a war are EVER justified.

    ‘U are not satisfied when we advised and said “ONE BAD THING CANT BE JUSTIFIED BY ANOTHER BAD THING”? U want me to say that yes only saddam wrong but bush is right? When did I support Saddam?’

    1. I don’t want you to say what I want you to say, I want you to say what YOU think so that I can understand you.

    2. I’ve never heard you say ‘one bad thing can’t be justified by another bad thing’. Your holy book says that the death of an innocent is like the death of all of mankind. Right, SO if ‘Bush’ killed all those supposed ‘innocents’ then it WOULD be justified to kill him (or his people who elected him democratically) am I not correct?

    3. You never even said that Sadaam was ‘wrong’ but you compared him to ‘Bush’ said that he only killed 40 and Bush killed ‘50,000 innocents’ What was the point of that comparison if not to show one is worse than the other and how could I think it is any kind of educated comparison when the numbers are so very skewed? Come on, how many mass graves were found and how many people were in them? Also, why do you assume that all that ‘Bush’ killed were innocent?

  116. @Azad Ali Shah

    Irregardless of how hard you and other muslims try to paint a rosy picture-perfect portrait of Islam, the facts on the ground are starkly different.

    Sad but perceptions are sometimes realities!

    According to a recent survey, most americans don’t believe they are unfair to Muslim Americans. They also think Muslims in this country should be louder in their criticism of potential domestic terrorist attacks.

    Rasmussen national survey found that 63% of americans believe that Muslims in America are treated fairly while 20% are not sure. Fifty-seven percent (57%) of americans say Muslim Americans are not speaking out enough against potential terrorist attacks in the United States.

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/march_2011/just_17_believe_american_muslims_are_treated_unfairly

  117. Khadeejah

    You reflect, do you? Are you sure? Ok, then reflect on these common concerns:
    1. Why are Islamic societies so intolerant as well as major human rights abusers? Why do Muslims hold that this has nothing to do with islam when in fact Muslims use Islam to justify this intolerance? Look at the statistics – how can Islam not be a factor?
    2. Why do Muslims insist that Mohammad is above criticism when your own traditions clearly portray him as a warload that attacked non-Muslims, plundered, killed, enslaved and raped captives? Why should we believe that Muslims want peace when they refuse to admit that their own writings say? Let me give you a reference: Narrated Humaid: Anas bin Malik said, “Whenever the Prophet went out with us to fight (in Allah’s cause) against any nation, he never allowed us to attack till morning and he would wait and see: if he heard adhan he would postpone the attack and if he did not hear adhan he would attack them” and then it goes on to tell how Mohammad attacked Khaibar in the morning as the people were going to work. (Sahih Bukhari, book 11, 584)
    3. And of course, why do Muslims that preach “islam is peace” or explain Islamic dogma to non-Muslims fail to mention verses and facts like these?
    Why do Muslims pretend there are not hundreds of verses in the Quran that teach hate and violence against non-Muslims. Want examples: Explain Quran 9:111 and 9:29. Does that not seem to indicate that Muslims are not honest about their faith?

    See, Khadeejah, this (above) is what I am talking about. Would you care to reflect on the 3 issues above? Do you think these issues are not important? Do you think that non-Muslims should not have the right to condemn Islam and its ideology?

    And then we get things like this:

    http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article454863.ece

    Quote: “Some non-Muslim intellectuals are thinking that we Muslims react emotionally to smear campaigns because we don’t have the knowledge to confront the critiques rationally,” Akbar said while describing his organization’s plan to hold a seven-month campaign to highlight the life and teachings of the Prophet.

    Yeah, duhhhh. But wait, aren’t the “life and teachings of the prophet” exactly what the critics of islam use to “smear” islam? (well, that and Muslims’ own actions). Don’t critics of Islam use the Quran to prove their viewpoint that islam is ambiguous and promotes terror? Why should non-Muslims not dislike islam and Muslims given that Muslims cannot provide simple, coherent answers to basic issues like these?

    I really don’t known what is going to happen to us, but I suspect that it will not be nice.

  118. Azad, Thanks for the nice comment. Too bad we can’t talk about something other than islam, like cartography, history, or the war of the elites on the middle class, or how the human race always screws things up.

    Here is a video for you…

    Now the French Revolution is one of the most interesting events in history. Les Miserables was a great musical because it reflects the dismay that sincere people (that is us here at American Bedu) have with our collective actions, even those intended for good. I think the line “then it all went wrong” is the key to the story. Good ideas, bad results. Why did Sudan Boyle skip the first lines of the song?

  119. 2. I’ve never heard you say ‘one bad thing can’t be justified by another bad thing’.
    ========================================

    @Lynn,

    If not heard, see again what I wrote:

    “Even though we dont directly nullify her points. We advise her that one bad thing can not be justified by another bad thing. I ask her is it ok if some1 attack her becoz I did a crime? In short, u can not kill any innocent for the crime done by other. period. This is how we argue and advice”

    Read again and again, my reply covers all humanity and justice.

    My sister is 17 years old just going to Law college now. What I said here is 1% of our discussion. I cant say all here what my friends/I said her and what she argued. 40 is mentioned by her not me. We told her killing any innocent is not justifiable. The war to kill innocent in Iraq was illegal and no “GO” signal was given by UNO. Just like Saddam was put under trial, the killer of Iraqi innocents also shuld be put under trial. A country has been destroyed completely. This was her argument and why should I/my friends nullify her? Surprisingly u support that illegal war and killing of innocents. What sense of humanity u have!!

    She is not supporting Saddam to but giving example and saying that justice is not done and culprits are not treated equally. U have to understand and see where is wrong!!

    US created and financed terrostis, it killed millions of innocents in this world.

    Hillary Clinton speaks about US links with Taliban:
    Have a look here:

  120. Rasmussen national survey found that 63% of americans believe that Muslims in America are treated fairly while 20% are not sure. Fifty-seven percent (57%) of americans say Muslim Americans are not speaking out enough against potential terrorist attacks in the United States.

    ===============================================

    @Harry,

    Is it against ur mental policy that u cant bring any good news abt Islam/Muslim and bring only bad news?

    here is one news that u will not like to see.

    “93% of Muslims Worldwide Condemn 9/11 Attacks”:

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=93%25+of+Muslims+condemn+9%2F11&meta=

  121. “Georgetown’s CMCU was endowed in December 2005 by a $20 million grant from Saudi Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal, one of the richest men in the world, who also gave another $20 million for a similar center at Harvard. Back in February 2008, I wrote about the extremist Wahhabi agenda that the center actively promotes. Congressman Frank Wolf has also written to Georgetown President John DeGioia expressing concerns about the potential Saudi influence of U.S. government foreign service personnel trained at the university. Wolf also queried whether the CMCU had ever written anything critical of the Saudis’ abysmal record on human rights, religious freedom, freedom of expression, women’s rights, minority rights, protection of foreign workers, due process, and the rule of law. Needless to say, they haven’t.”

    “That some of America’s top universities are actively colluding with the Islamic foreign governments — most of whom have refused to sign the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights — is troubling enough. But signing onto and openly promoting the OIC’s stated agenda of criminalizing “Islamophobia” puts them in direct opposition to the U.S. Constitution’s First Amendment protections, and raises serious questions about their eligibility for public funding.”

    “This is clearly an issue for Congress to investigate immediately.”

    Read it all…

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/pjm-exclusive-georgetown-u-received-325000-funneled-through-terror-front-group/?singlepage=true

  122. @Azad Ali Shah

    “93% of Muslims Worldwide Condemn 9/11 Attacks”

    Shah Saab, thanks for sharing but I have seen this 3-year old Gallup survey before being touted around on just about every muslim website to show that “islam is a religion of peace”. According to the poll, 93% of Muslims worldwide are moderate while “only” 7% or 91 million are radical jihadists.

    Relax kafirs of the world! There are only 91-million jihadists on the loose!

    And the radicals, we’re told, are that way because of politics not religion. Thus, Islam is absolved of being the inspiration for the horrors done in its name. As the “church lady” would say: How convenient!

    And that’s why I don’t believe this poll.

    The survey also showed that 91-million radical jihadists are better educated, have better jobs, and are more hopeful with regard to the future than mainstream Muslims. Interesting!

    Better educated? Bbbbut…aren’t they ignorant of Islam?

    I don’t doubt that the Muslims who participated in this survey did say the positive things Gallup claims. The problem is that little doctrine called taqqiya which allows Muslims to lie to kafirs to help Islam. I can’t think of a better opportunity to practice taqqiya than this survey. Tell the Western kafirs what they desperately want to believe then let their Google spread it all over the globe. Apologists for Islam can then seize on this poll to bolster their claims that Mohammad’s religion is really peaceful and that the Koran quoting decapitators and suicide bombers are aberrations. There you go … Taqqiya has done its job.

    Shah Saab, we kafirs can’t afford to take this survey at face value. Doing so could mean signing our own death certificate. We must keep our guard up and never forget the goal of the enemy we face. Muslims aim to conquer, convert, or kill us and any means are permissible to achieve that end. We must ALWAYS fight back, using the Muslims’ means against them. Our very lives depend on it.

  123. ‘Surprisingly u support that illegal war and killing of innocents. What sense of humanity u have!!’

    Thank you for a good example of how YOU start the name calling/denigration based on YOUR imagination and assumptions of my beliefs about the war.

    I have a question for you though. I hear this term ‘illegal war’ thrown around all the time. Could you perhaps explain to me what a ‘legal war’ would be?

  124. “93% of Muslims Worldwide Condemn 9/11 Attacks”:

    Actually, the poll was of 50,000 Muslims in 35 different Muslim countries (about 1500 per country) How many Muslims are there in the world? Someone can check my math for me but I don’t believe that even ALL those Muslims in this poll even make up 93% of the Muslims in the world. Right?

  125. Jay, your link gave me my first cry of the day. I too dreamed a dream but then it all went wrong :-(

  126. @Lynn: “Could you perhaps explain to me what a ‘legal war’ would be?”

    I’ll let Azad answer that one. Jihad comes to my mind as to the islamic definition of a “legal war. Any other kafir wars, even when sanctioned by the duly elected representatives of the people, will be defined by the ummah as “illegal wars”.

  127. We must ALWAYS fight back, using the Muslims’ means against them. Our very lives depend on it.
    ———————————-

    @Harry,

    What Taqiya u are talking abt? Internet is full of filthy and hatred things. If u ask what is taqiya to any of my family memebers or my neighbohor Muslims, no will reply(By promising Allah’s name I feel they will not know what is this Taqiys). I am sure its not some common words that a muslim should know. I pray 5 times prayer, I fast, I dont date, dont drink. I consider myself as good Muslim but I never know this Taqiya word. The one who spread hatred knows more abt hatred.

    Go and fight..better not in internet. Go and fight in reality. Go ahead man!!! Taliban also claims that they are fighting back like u say.

  128. @azad ali shah – it is hard for people to find and print ‘good news’ stories about Islam. They are few and far between. I read the papers coming home to my house from the mosque and I don’t find good news stories. I find stories about how laws should be changed to accommodate Islam. That is NOT a good news story. I do NOT find articles suggesting the mosque members stand up against Islamic terrorist attacks – quite on the contrary. And then there is the fact that mosques won’t even help their own people in times of troubles and a Christian church will help that Muslim family. Show us some good news stories then if you will.

  129. @Lynn: “Could you perhaps explain to me what a ‘legal war’ would be?”

    I’ll let Azad answer that one. Jihad comes to my mind as to the islamic definition of a “legal war. Any other kafir wars, even when sanctioned by the duly elected representatives of the people, will be defined by the ummah as “illegal wars”.
    ================================================

    @Harry,

    A legal war in today’s term is a war which is sanctioned by international community like the on going on Libay which is sanctioned by UNO. The war waged in Iraq was opposed by international community, millions protested in all over world including entire western countires and even in US. It was perfect example of abuse of power.

    There are two variants of Jihad: al -Jihad-al-Akbar (Greater Jihad) and al-Jihad-al-Asghar (lesser Jihad). Quest for personal growth overcoming greed, egos, wrongs and fears with kindness, mercy, education and surrender constitute the span of greater ‘Jihad’. This form of ‘Jihad’ is an attempt for spiritual enlightenment. Thankfully and not surprisingly, lesser ‘Jihad’ is the reason for which ‘Islam’ is so maligned. It speaks for violence. Violence is resorted to only and only at the cost of defence but not offence. After the battle ‘Tabuk’, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is reported to have said that he had come back to greater ‘Jihad’ after a lesser Jihad.

    Thus, my definition of legal war is not jihad. Now,U urself is doing jihad (struggle) to spread wrong messages and forming wrong opinions. And I m doing jihad (struggle) to send truthful message without bringing some other faith’s negative things. Jihad as war is smaller jihad and jihad for justice is bigger jihad, based on the sanction of bigger jihad smaller jihad should be done.

    U can read more what is Jihad:

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran_2.html

  130. Thank you for a good example of how YOU start the name calling/denigration based on YOUR imagination and assumptions of my beliefs about the war.

    ==========================================

    @Lynn,

    I appologise if I hurt u or If I formed wrong opinion.
    But ur following statment forced me to think so.

    U justified the war on Iraq and said:

    “to take out terrorists that attacked US first”

    I dont know which terrorists was taken out of Iraq but what I know is entire country had been made terrorist country with blasts, violence and 1000s of innocents killed in that war and subsequent terorist activites.
    I dnt knwo from what angle u will justify that war which world protested against – even 1000s pretested in US agaisnt that war.

  131. @Jay,

    Thanks for sharing the video. I cant see it now.
    I will see later. Hope u came out of your sewage digging :)

  132. @Harry,

    I OR ANY COMMON MUSLIM DOESNT DENY THE EXISTANCE OF MUSLIM TERRORISTS AND WE DO NOT JUSTIFY KILLING OF ANY INNOCENT. U will never find me supporting extremism. I alwasy abuse Taliban and Al-Qaida with loud voice. We also stand agasint those fanatic or branwashed Muslims who justify killing of innocence just becoz US did this and that..they did this and that.

    To kill an innocent life is killing whole humanity and to save an innocent life is saving all humanity (Quran). At least I and many other common Muslims try to follow this Quranic verses with heart and soul even though u think to nullify this verses :)

  133. Azad, don’t worry, I cannot be offended by anything that you say. I was just trying to point out something for you so you could adjust the way you discuss things with people in order that you could be taken seriously.

    ‘U justified the war on Iraq and said:
    “to take out terrorists that attacked US first”’

    I did NOT. The war in Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. That was Afghanistan. Do you believe that the US was not justified in going after bin Laden and al Qaida? Remember, 9/11 was not the first attack from them.

    Could you please now answer my direct question to you in order that I can better understand you? Again, I ask you, I hear this term ‘illegal war’ thrown around all the time. Could you perhaps explain to me what a ‘legal war’ would be?

  134. “93% of Muslims Worldwide Condemn 9/11 Attacks”:

    Actually, the poll was of 50,000 Muslims in 35 different Muslim countries (about 1500 per country) How many Muslims are there in the world? Someone can check my math for me but I don’t believe that even ALL those Muslims in this poll even make up 93% of the Muslims in the world. Right?

    ===================================================

    In that case, there are 1.5 billion Muslims in this world. 0.01% of 1.5 billion is 150,000. Lets say that 0.01% (150,000 Muslims) of world Muslim population are terrorists. If there are really 150,000(0.01%) Muslim terrorists, there will be blast in every micro second in each every country of the wrold..in kitchen , toilet, bathroom,bed-room. So, in real sense its not possbile that there are 0.01% (150,000) Muslim terroirsts.

    OK,take 0.01% as terrorists for calculation purpose. Please have some sympathy and humanity for rest 99.99% (149,985,000,0)of Muslims. They are not harming any1 and suffering becoz of this 0.01% and listening abuse from another 4 billion non-Muslims:)

  135. @Lynn,

    I replied above what is legal war in response to Harry. Let me know if u dnt agree with my opinion. Let me what is ur definition.

  136. ‘So, in real sense its not possbile that there are 0.01% (150,000) Muslim terroirsts.’

    See? You are not understanding me at all. I am not saying that all Muslims that did not answer this poll are terrorists. I am saying: DO NOT USE THIS POLL TO ‘PROVE’ THAT 93% OF MUSLIMS DO NOT SUPPORT TERRORISM. WHEN THIS POLL ONLY POLLED A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF MUSLIMS IN THE WORLD. Also, not everyone who SUPPORTS terrorism (for whatever reason) would actually BE a terrorist. Do you understand the difference there?

  137. @Azad – @Harry,
    I OR ANY COMMON MUSLIM DOESNT DENY THE EXISTANCE OF MUSLIM TERRORISTS AND WE DO NOT JUSTIFY KILLING OF ANY INNOCENT. U will never find me supporting extremism. I alwasy abuse Taliban and Al-Qaida with loud voice. We also stand agasint those fanatic or branwashed Muslims who justify killing of innocence just becoz US did this and that..they did this and that.
    To kill an innocent life is killing whole humanity and to save an innocent life is saving all humanity (Quran). At least I and many other common Muslims try to follow this Quranic verses with heart and soul even though u think to nullify this verses ‘

    If THAT is what you meant when you said you answered my question in reply to Harry then that is NOT an answer to my question. WHAT IS A LEGAL WAR? Please tell me how a war can ever be justified and considered ‘legal’?

  138. Let me copy paste again:

    @Lynn: “Could you perhaps explain to me what a ‘legal war’ would be?”

    I’ll let Azad answer that one. Jihad comes to my mind as to the islamic definition of a “legal war. Any other kafir wars, even when sanctioned by the duly elected representatives of the people, will be defined by the ummah as “illegal wars”.
    ================================================

    @Harry,

    A legal war in today’s term is a war which is sanctioned by international community like the on going on Libay which is sanctioned by UNO. The war waged in Iraq was opposed by international community, millions protested in all over world including entire western countires and even in US. It was perfect example of abuse of power.

    There are two variants of Jihad: al -Jihad-al-Akbar (Greater Jihad) and al-Jihad-al-Asghar (lesser Jihad). Quest for personal growth overcoming greed, egos, wrongs and fears with kindness, mercy, education and surrender constitute the span of greater ‘Jihad’. This form of ‘Jihad’ is an attempt for spiritual enlightenment. Thankfully and not surprisingly, lesser ‘Jihad’ is the reason for which ‘Islam’ is so maligned. It speaks for violence. Violence is resorted to only and only at the cost of defence but not offence. After the battle ‘Tabuk’, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is reported to have said that he had come back to greater ‘Jihad’ after a lesser Jihad.

    Thus, my definition of legal war is not jihad. Now,U urself is doing jihad (struggle) to spread wrong messages and forming wrong opinions. And I m doing jihad (struggle) to send truthful message without bringing some other faith’s negative things. Jihad as war is smaller jihad and jihad for justice is bigger jihad, based on the sanction of bigger jihad smaller jihad should be done.

    U can read more what is Jihad:

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran_2.html

  139. See? You are not understanding me at all. I
    ——————————
    @Lynn,

    I understand ur point completely but u fail to understand me. Of course poll is calculated in % and then an average, acceptable, approximate figure/idea is taken from that %. That is the concept of % when its not possible to take view of big number of population or when exact figures can not be taken into account.

  140. ‘I understand ur point completely ‘

    Then can you kindly tell me why, if you understand me, you would think that I would think that it is possible that ‘there ARE 0.01% (150,000) Muslim terroirsts.’

  141. @Lynn,

    Ohhh… I was not thinking or saying that u think in that way. I was continuing discussion on same note of this % discussion.

  142. Well, that sure is what it sounded like when you said:

    ‘“93% of Muslims Worldwide Condemn 9/11 Attacks”:
    Actually, the poll was of 50,000 Muslims in 35 different Muslim countries (about 1500 per country) How many Muslims are there in the world? Someone can check my math for me but I don’t believe that even ALL those Muslims in this poll even make up 93% of the Muslims in the world. Right?
    ===================================================
    In that case, there are 1.5 billion Muslims in this world. 0.01% of 1.5 billion is 150,000. Lets say that 0.01% (150,000 Muslims) of world Muslim population are terrorists. If there are really 150,000(0.01%) Muslim terrorists, there will be blast in every micro second in each every country of the wrold..in kitchen , toilet, bathroom,bed-room. So, in real sense its not possbile that there are 0.01% (150,000) Muslim terroirsts.
    OK,take 0.01% as terrorists for calculation purpose. Please have some sympathy and humanity for rest 99.99% (149,985,000,0)of Muslims. They are not harming any1 and suffering becoz of this 0.01% and listening abuse from another 4 billion non-Muslims:)

  143. Md, You still haven’t answered my question about what a ‘legal war’ is.

  144. Lynn,

    “Your comment is awaiting moderation. “.

    I dnt know why. Lets see if u cant see for some more time. I will repost again.

  145. i sure hope it isn’t a video. I want YOUR words please.

  146. @Lynn,
    Let me copy paste again what I replied:

    I’ll let Azad answer that one. Jihad comes to my mind as to the islamic definition of a “legal war. Any other kafir wars, even when sanctioned by the duly elected representatives of the people, will be defined by the ummah as “illegal wars”.
    ================================================

    @Harry,

    Of course, I am not going to say Jihad here.
    A legal war in today’s term is a war which is sanctioned by international community like the on going on Libay which is sanctioned by UNO. The war waged in Iraq was opposed by international community, millions protested in all over world including entire western countires and even in US. It was perfect example of abuse of power.

    There are two variants of Jihad: al -Jihad-al-Akbar (Greater Jihad) and al-Jihad-al-Asghar (lesser Jihad). Quest for personal growth overcoming greed, egos, wrongs and fears with kindness, mercy, education and surrender constitute the span of greater ‘Jihad’. This form of ‘Jihad’ is an attempt for spiritual enlightenment. Thankfully and not surprisingly, lesser ‘Jihad’ is the reason for which ‘Islam’ is so maligned. It speaks for violence. Violence is resorted to only and only at the cost of defence but not offence. After the battle ‘Tabuk’, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is reported to have said that he had come back to greater ‘Jihad’ after a lesser Jihad.

    Thus, my definition of legal war is not jihad. Now,U urself is doing jihad (struggle) to spread wrong messages and forming wrong opinions. And I m doing jihad (struggle) to send truthful message without bringing some other faith’s negative things. Jihad as war is smaller jihad and jihad for justice is bigger jihad, based on the sanction of bigger jihad smaller jihad should be done.

    Paste copy is against blog rules
    Moderator

  147. Azad Ali Shah: “To kill an innocent life is killing whole humanity and to save an innocent life is saving all humanity” (Koran).

    Salam Shah Saab, the Koranic verse 5:32 that you referenced, is the most often quoted verse (especially right after 9/11) to show islam as the “religion of peace”. However, jihadists contend that no Americans or Israelis are innocent, and thus the verse doesn’t apply to their actions, as they have demonstrated time after time.

    Also, if one continues down further to read koranic verse 5:33, which stipulates that “the punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and maim for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter” – a sure mandate for mayhem that jihadists have skillfully deployed the world over. Apparently, this is a strong indication that your’s and other muslims’ reading of 5:32 may be a trifle superficial.

    After having read different interpretations of koran and consulting the mainstream tafsirs (commentaries), I have come to discover how traditional Islam has understood passages such as 9:5 and 9:29, and 8:39, which reads: “And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.”

    Tafasir-i-Husaini, to take just one example, explains: “Fight them till all strife be at an end,” that is, until “no polytheists remain of the pagans or Jews or Christians.” (vol. i, p. 239). That is, until the “polytheistic” features of Judaism and Christianity are eradicated, which means, until the Jews and Christians have become Muslims.

  148. Azad Ali Shah: “A legal war in today’s term is a war which is sanctioned by international community like the on going on Libay which is sanctioned by UNO. The war waged in Iraq was opposed by international community”.

    Iraq war was sanctioned by the UN Security Council and also by the US Congress.
    So using your definition, Iraq War was “lawfully legal”.

  149. ‘The war waged in Iraq was opposed by international community, millions protested in all over world including entire western countires and even in US. It was perfect example of abuse of power.’

    How many countries were involved in this war in Iraq? You make it sound like it was just the US but I’m sure that you know differently, right? The International Community was involved wasn’t it? If it was such a cut and dry illegal war then why didn’t other countries come to the aid of Iraq? Was the first Gulf War a legal war?

    ‘And I m doing jihad (struggle) to send truthful message…’
    That is, as YOU understand it but there are a LOT of things that you just do not understand.

    ‘Jihad as war is smaller jihad and jihad for justice is bigger jihad, based on the sanction of bigger jihad smaller jihad should be done.’

    Since the war in Iraq is ‘illegal’ war against a ‘Muslim’ nation in your eyes, does that mean that a jihad, big or small, IS legal in this case?

  150. @Harry,

    I said many times, lets keep the verses aside. Lets discuss whole Quran as a book first. We Muslims think its from God. What u think who wrote Quran?

    I follow the definition of Jihad as explained here but not the way u interpret:

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html

  151. Azad Ali Shah,

    The Quran did not come down as a ‘whole book’ so how were the earlier Muslims supposed to understand things?

  152. @Lynn and Harry,,

    I am not sure how old u were when Iraq invasion was happend in 2003. I was in Engineering College. I remember the incident clearly. US and its partners did invasion without UN sanction. THere were protest in all over world. I dnt know where u were. U really dont know it Or u are just trying to win this dry argument.

    Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan (United Nations secretary general):

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq/print

    I dnt see any outcome of this dry argument.

  153. The Quran did not come down as a ‘whole book’ so how were the earlier Muslims supposed to understand things?

    ————————————————————————-

    I know Quran was revealed in a span of 23 years. Each verses came with a context of the time.

    My question is Muslim believe Quran is from God but what u guys think who wrote it or how it came?

  154. What we think about where is came from is irrelevant. You are saying that the verses cannot be taken without taking the whole Quran but if the whole Quran was not there yet then the earlier Muslims couldn’t do that, could they?

  155. Azad, I am not here to argue with you about the Iraq war. It is NOT as cut and dry as you think it is. There IS a difference of opinion on whether or not it was legal and If it were solidly ILLEGAL the UN SHOULD have stopped it. Do you think the UN is doing a good job of enforcing it’s own charters and resolutions?

    But, my question to you is: ‘Since the war in Iraq is an ‘illegal’ war against a ‘Muslim’ nation, does that mean that a jihad, big or small, IS legal in this case?’

  156. Azad Bai,

    According to my research, the U.S. and coalition military presence, and use of force, have in fact been fully authorized by the UN Security Council since it adopted resolution No. 1511 on Oct. 16, 2003.

    That UN resolution “authorizes a multinational force under unified command to take all necessary measures to contribute to the maintenance of security and stability in Iraq …”

  157. Harry, I am surprised you let the reference to 5:32 pass so easily. Usually I jump on such nonsense and whack’em with it.

    As you say, 5:32 is one of the most quoted verses in the Quran. Make that misquoted. Muslims cannot quote this verse completely or accurately to save their souls. If you do a Google search for words such as “quran kill all humanity mankind innocent” you will come up with dozens of references by Muslims to this supposedly peaceful verse.

    Except that is not what it says. Or that is not all of the story. The verses has 8 parts (clauses) and Muslims take 3 and 5, stick them together and use them to “prove” that islam is peaceful forbids killing. The problem that parts1, 2 and 4 are embarrassing and counterproductive, and parts 6-8 unsupportive, so I guess that Muslims have a good reason for this mutilation of Allah’s eternal, perfect word.

    The verses starts with this (part 1): “For we have ordained” – we? meaning Allah is a plural. What happend to the “no partners” or “no other gods” thing? Actually, a reading of the Quran puts Mohammad there with Allah as co-god, best friend, partner – and theology be dammed. Muslims will say that the use of “we” is just literary form, but then is style more important than grammar or dogma? Note that, according to the Quran, Mohammad not only makes decisions with Allah, but must be obeyed as if they were one (Note also they share loot together which, makes them equals and partners, not to mention the question of why a god needs plunder….)

    Part 2 is a killer… it says “that for the children of Israel”. Damn it. It is for and about those vile Jews! Curses! Horror! Well, we can take care of that, we will just delete these words out! ha. Of course, Muslims get their underwear tied in knots if someone desecrates the Quran but they themselves cut out Allah’s words – basically tell Allah she is stupid and got it wrong.

    Part 3 is where Muslims begin the verse: “To kill an innocent life”. I am happy to report that Muslims usually get these words right. It serves their purpose

    But wait! There is an exception clause… oh no! Part 4 puts some rather peculiar, vague exclusions on this directive: “unless for corruption (often also translated as mischief or confusion) in the land”. Now I ask, what kind of god uses a stupid vague word like ‘corruption’ (or mischief) to justify killing? Allah! So all a king or imam has to do, assuming they apply this verse to themselves – which they do – is say that some poor sob is doing corruption or mischief and they have him killed, citing this verse. Yes, this concept of killing people, and using this and other similar verses in the Quran about “mischief” that give Muslims the right to kill others for “corruption” – whatever that is! – has been used by Muslim tyrants for centuries to kill their opponents and oppress their own people. Thank you, Allah, for all the dead people!

    Continuing… Part 5 is attached to 3. It says “is as if he had slain all of mankind: OK. This is how Muslims quote it, always. Sounds real nice without all the extra stuff, right?

    The verse goes on with three more parts, of less consequence but still important.

    Part 6 is this “ And whoever saves one life, it is as if he had saved all of mankind”. This is a reverse allusion to parts 3 and 5 without reference to the fact that “all of mankind”: does not include those who make corruption. So does this mean that those who do mischief are less than human?

    Part 7 goes on to say: “And our messengers certainly come to them with clear proofs” which simply states that the Quran is clear and there is no excuse for not understanding it and submitting to Islam. This means that non-Muslims are, by choice, ignorant and/or evil.

    Finally, part 8 says “yet many of them, even after this, continue to transgress”. So, by rejecting islam, non-Muslims are in violation of Allah’s moral principles, sinning, or just plain evil. Note also that by definition, according to Quran 7:103 and 8:73, non-Muslims are in fact doing (in a state of) corruption and mischief. So, in fact even if the verse is applied as Muslims like to represent it, non-Muslims may be killed for doing corruption. It says that by rejecting Islam and Mohammad’s message, a person is evil (a transgressor) and causing corruption and therefore may be killed.

    As I have said before, there is not concept of sin or morality in Islam. Well, sin in Islam is not about not killing, cheating, lying, etc as in the Western tradition but a matter of non-believing in Mohammed’s message or not following silly rituals or doing the vain, meaningless actions required to be considered a good Muslim. This fully explains the human rights situation in Islamic societies. If they pray 5 times a day (even if the Quran says 3) and their women cover themselves, they are ‘good’ Muslims, even though they preach hate and do violence again ‘the other’. Go figure!

    And there is the following verse, Quran 5:33. While Muslims love to quote 5:32 in its cleaned-up, sanitized form, to prove how ‘peaceful’ islam is, they certainly will not mention the next verse. It basically says that Muslims are not only supposed to kill nonMuslims that oppose Islam, but brutally torture them. Gosh, I wonder why they don’t quote this verse in these debates? The fact is that Allah is really the torturer in chief and the Quran is full of nice little abominable barbaric procedures, such as roasting a person’s skin off or pouring boiling oil down throats, that Allah does personally to those who commit the terrible crime of unbelief. So, killing, looting, enslavement, rape of captives ok, go to heaven, but to not believe that Allah is a merciful, loving god, then it is endless agonizing torture. Sounds fair, doesn’t it?

    Oh yes, two last observations: first, the word ‘innocent’ is not used in 5:32. Why do Muslims always correct Allah? So Muslims are saying the Quran is poorly written and they think they have a better version. Secondly, this “to kill a person” verse in the “eternal” Quran was actually plagiarized from the Babylonian Talmud, written 400 years earlier – So Allah is a copyright criminal, too (Actually, it is probably something Mohammad heard around the campfire when he was visiting jewish tribes in his caravan travels, when he was a youngster – and later incorporated it into the Quran.)

    Khadeejah, that is how one reflects on and questions an ideology. This is why I say that Muslims are unable to read and reflect honestly on Islam, the Quran and the words and deeds of their prophet. You must read the verses and consider their meaning and consequences. As I said, Muslims are unable to question anything about islam. That is why we are doomed to pain and destruction.

  158. I hope to be a conveyor of good news and interaction between Muslims and non-Muslims. I am part of a local initiative which intends to reach across communities. There have been delays due to the restart of my treatments and low blood counts but once the “new normal” and its parameters are clearly known, I am eager to move forward.

    We move forward as people with compassion and a desire to understand. I felt like I was always moving between the bridges of Muslims and non-Muslims the greater part of my diplomatic and personal life. It was not hard and my own world was greater enriched.

    Don’t go in with any false expectations. Be yourself! Be a person!

    I don’t think there is anything wrong if at a check out line or in a mall to say “Asalaam Alaikum” to an individual who is ‘visibily’ Muslim or for a Muslim to say ‘Blessings’ to a non-Muslim. That’s all…just the exchange of words. It’s a starting point and allows us to see each person for the individual he or she is instead of as a symbol of misunderstanding.

  159. Lynn, I cannot understand ever why a Muslim would condemn anybody’s wars, particularly Iraq and such, when Mohammad waged wars constantly.

    Of course, it is a double standard. If America goes to war, it is evil – if Mohammad attacks peaceful villages time after time, it is ‘praise be upon him’, how wonderful!

    The fact is that Muslims have no standards for themselves, except that if it is in the Quran or Mohammad did it, then it cannot be criticized. Morality is for others.

    Muslims just cant read and/or understand their own writings. I once did a study of Muslim accounts of Mohammad’s attack on the banu al-Mustaliq just to show how inaccurate and distorted these are, even when directly referring to clear passages in the hadith. It would be funny if this weren’t about attacks, plunder, enslavement, killing and rape, not to mention subsequent events that Muslims use to kill little girls.

    One would think, one would suppose, that things like this would cause Muslims – good Muslims – to stop and think. But no. I have yet to find a Muslim that will condemn Mohammad for his raids and wars, or Allah for putting verses in Sura’s 4 and24 that Muslims use to kill little girls for zina. The idea that – “if Allah were an all-powerful, all-knowing god, he/she would know that those verses are too vague and could be used to kill little girls that were raped or abused” and therefore, if Allah were really a merciful, all powerful god he/she would have added a few lines to the so-called sacred text saying that “this does not apply to young girls who have no witnesses to the crimes committed against them” – is beyond the moral and intellectual capacity of Muslims. They don’t care. That would be criticizing Islam and that is not permitted.

    When it comes to islam and even common sense, Muslims remove their brains and stick them where the sun don’t shine.

    I am in a piss-poor mood today – and its friday. Imagine if it were a monday.

  160. @Azad Ali Shah

    Salam Azad Bai, about this Greater Jihad and Lesser Jihad thingy. Again and again this phony business about “Lesser Jihad” and “Greater Jihad” keeps coming up, especially right after 9/11, and we are carefully told that the “Greater Jihad” is the internal struggle of Muslims with their own consciences. But this is not quite what it seems.

    First of all, Azad Bai, Islam is based not on solicitousness for the individual, but concern for the collective of the Umma, and for furthering the interests not of a single soul but of the Great Cause: that of spreading Islam until it dominates everywhere. The individual Believer is akin to a recruit to an army. If he leaves, it is regarded as treason. His duty is that of mental submission — no independent questioning, no comparing what his duties are with what reason, or morality, tell him should be his duties. He is not to reason why, but to follow scrupulously the rules as to what is prohibited and what is commanded.

    Azad Bai, this “Greater Jihad” business is designed merely to convince us Infidels that the real “Jihad” — the “struggle” to remove all obstacles to the spread, and then to the dominance, of Islam — is not that, but a lesser thing, something hovering in the background, while all attention should be focused on these individuals wrestling with their consciences. The weight of authority is completely on the other side.

    Koranic commentators and Muslim jurists and Muslim historians all agree that the “Jihad” means that “struggle” to spread Islam, and that the “internal struggle” is simply a later invention by a few Muslim would-be reformers (especially after 9/11) who realized that “Jihad” would not be wise or even possible in a world of overwhelmingly more powerful Infidels, and that therefore the idea should be given a different interpretation. Or at least they would try to do the impossible and hope that some Muslims might actually accept that interpretation.

  161. @ Jay – “There is no concept of sin and morality in Islam……sin in Islam is not about killing,cheating lying etc, as in the western tradition”!!??

    I was going to answer you in a logical step by step fashion till I read these words of yours and realized that YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ISLAM. Where are you coming from Jay? Discussing a subject with someone who does not even know the basics is an utter waste of time for me!

    You need to (if I may borrow your phrase)” remove your brain from where the sun don’t shine” – quote, unquote – and get to know your subject matter. “Read….and Reflect” Jay before you jump in full swing and then come crashing down over mere basics.

    My Goodness, you could not be THAT unknowledgable! But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say, that I suppose you know a lot about Islam, and the above comments are just the result of your “Piss-poor mood”. Either way, and which ever way one looks at it – it is a very illogical and non common sense thing to either discuss something one knows nothing about – or to allow one’s “mood” to dictate what one writes in a public forum on the net.

    As hard as I am trying to, I can’t seem to come up with a justification for your ignorance of the subject matter in this debate. At least not enough, to take you seriously again. Sorry Jay, ignorance of the topic being discussed is not ” how one reflects on and questions” anything in life…… reading up on,researching, cross referencing and finding out about, with abject objectivity and clear headedness, pure logic and non emotionalism (chucking aside one’s mood swings) is how one “reflects and questions” anything in life, including ideologies.

    But it did tickle me pink to know that there are people out here ( and I will be fair and say, I am sure that this includes both Non-Muslims and Muslims), having passionate, heated discussions about a subject they do not even know the basic premises of ;)

  162. @Khadeejah – ‘But it did tickle me pink to know that there are people out here ( and I will be fair and say, I am sure that this includes both Non-Muslims and Muslims), having passionate, heated discussions about a subject they do not even know the basic premises of’

    Surely you didn’t just learn that here, you live in Saudi Arabia for God’s sake! ;-)

  163. @ Lynn – I was referring in particular to this blog, in my comment. I did say “out Here” not “out There” Lynn :)

  164. ‘As hard as I am trying to, I can’t seem to come up with a justification for your ignorance of the subject matter in this debate. ‘

    Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Muslims want to scold him for his ignorance and can’t be bothered to show him where he is wrong, (I was going to answer you in a logical step by step fashion till I read these words of yours and realized that YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ISLAM)

    I’m sure that you know that he DOES know SOMEthing about Islam. How do you think your ‘conversation’ with him would give him a better impression of Islam or Muslims?

  165. Khadeejah…..I know something about Islam…and, while I dont agree with some of his conclusions…I find no basis in which to argue against him on some others. He is not ignorant of all things Islam…that is a gross generalization of his comments. Show him where he is wrong rather than just say he is ignorant….as Lynn said. Many muslims will not do that…just stamp their foot and say…you know nothing…but then back away from teaching the “true” version of Islam.

  166. Koranic commentators and Muslim jurists and Muslim historians all agree that the “Jihad” means that “struggle” to spread Islam, and that the “internal struggle” is simply a later invention by a few Muslim would-be reformers (especially after 9/11) who realized that “Jihad” would not be wise or even possible in a world of overwhelmingly more powerful Infidels, and that therefore the idea should be given a different interpretation. Or at least they would try to do the impossible and hope that some Muslims might actually accept that interpretation.
    ———————————————————————————————-

    @Harry, I tried to complete ur baseless long post. Meaning of Jihad changed after 9/11?, Such a blatant lie and I am sure no one including those who spent their time in Muslim countries and who REALLY KNOW THE MEANING OF JIHAD will object this and will enjoy such propaganda.

    Harry, Have u seen fake people, fake sites, fake news I posted earlier? U are the victim of such fakies.

    DO U KNOW ONE GOOD THING ABT ISLAM/MUSLIM IN UR LIFE? IF U ACCIDENTALLY KNOW ONE SUCH GOOD THING, DO U REALLY APPRECIATE IT?

  167. But, my question to you is: ‘Since the war in Iraq is an ‘illegal’ war against a ‘Muslim’ nation, does that mean that a jihad, big or small, IS legal in this case?’

    ————————————————————————————-

    In one of the reply in this discussion and forum, I replied already that “To kill an innocent is not allowed” and also I showed the stand of Muslims against terrorism and killing innocents.

    Its legal to put the culprits on trial but its illegal to bomb or kill any1 as revenge – like the one 9/11.
    A Jihad should be DECLARED OPENLY but not like bombing secretly and cowardly.

    I KNOW GOOD THINGS OF ISLAM/MUSLIM IS IGNORED, BUT LET ME SHOW AGAIN THE STAND OF MUSLIMS AGAINST TERRORORISM AND KILLING INNOCENTS:

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Fatwa+against+terrorism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

    U will realise that “People in this forum say that Muslim justify killing innocents blah blah but no one says that Muslim stands agaisnt killing innocents and terrorism”. Suppose the above link says “Muslim justify killing of innocents and terrorism”, imagine how much famous this link will be. See the level of hypocrisy and double standard!!

  168. What we think about where is came from is irrelevant. You are saying that the verses cannot be taken without taking the whole Quran but if the whole Quran was not there yet then the earlier Muslims couldn’t do that, could they?
    ————————————————————————————-

    Its very much required to know from where Quran came – a book a lot of non-Muslims hate and a lot of Muslims love.

    I didnt say ” the verses cannot be taken without taking the whole Quran”. I simply said lets discuss whole Quran as book..source of this. If its from God as we Muslims believe, then all negative things people try to find are human problems or lack of interpretation or lack of analytical skills with time, context, situation. Becoz no one knows more than God. And there is only one God, not my God and ur God.

  169. Coolred38 and Lynn,

    You guys are right. Khadija is wrong and she is one of those defensive lier Muslim. Muslims are unable to accept the truth. Yes, Jay is right.

    “There is no concept of sin and morality in Islam……sin in Islam is not about killing,cheating lying etc, as in the western tradition”!!??

    No doubt in it. Let’s celebrate the findings and jump up and down in antagonism.

  170. Azad, I really don’t think you understand. We KNOW that not all Muslims are terrorists or condone terrorism. We do not need a link to some cleric that issued a Fatwa that is ONLY applicable to the people that follow him. If we showed you the fatwa from the cleric that said that men who are working with women should suck from her breasts first would you do it? LOL

    Again, my question to you is: ‘Since the war in Iraq is an ‘illegal’ war against a ‘Muslim’ nation, does that mean that a jihad, big or small, IS legal in this case (as long as they declare their intentions)? But you CAN NOT say that bombing secretly or cowardly is not allowed in Islam. Did your prophet make a date with the people he attacked (not gonna argue whether or not he was justified) or did he surprise them? I’m gonna bet ya everything I own that some cleric somewhere DID declare jihad against the infidels and very clearly many are following it. No?

  171. Khadeejah…..I know something about Islam…
    ——————————————————————-

    @Coolred38,

    I am sorry to say this but I doubt your claim and sincerity. I think U know propaganda-Islam but not real Islam. If I remember correctly you are the one who said – “Muslim women cover to protect from Non-Muslim men and Muslim men do not to conquer non-Muslim women”. Also U said Muslim helps Ummah only not non-Muslims (something like this).

  172. Re: 5:32 Koran. “To kill an innocent life is killing whole humanity and to save an innocent life is saving all humanity”.

    To quote a Jewish verse to “prove” Islam is peaceful is simply dishonest. Koranic verse 5:32 is the most often (mis)quoted verse my muslims, especially right after 9/11, to show islam as the “religion of peace”. The first problem we run into with Koran 5:32 is that this is actually an earlier Jewish verse from Misnah IV Division 5. This was an earlier Jewish verse that preceded the Koran by at least 700 years.

    Here is the original Jewish verse that Muhammad regurgitated for the Koran: “Therefore a single person is created to teach that if any causes a single life to be lost, it is on him as if he has lost a whole world, and if anyone saves a single life, it is on him as if he saved a whole world.”

    Now let us compare the original Jewish verse above with Koran 5:32: “On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it would be as if he slew the whole people, and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.”

    Even the Koran makes the clear distinction that this peaceful verse was “ordained for the Children of Israel”. This also reinforces the point that this was an earlier jewish verse, even when looked at within the Islamic context. To quote a Jewish verse to “prove” Islam is peaceful is the height of dishonesty!

  173. Azad…thankfully what you think of my claims and sincerity affects me not at all. And I never make comments about something of which I know nothing about…or I say I dont know…for you to assume I dont know what Im speaking about is par for the course for Muslims. Try to tell me what I do or do not know based on your understanding etc….descrediting my understanding as having no basis or validity. Happily I dont care whether you agree with me or not…does not change anything at all about what I believe to be true.

    Women in the prophets day were ordered to cover WHY? because they were being harrassed and sexually assualted by nonmuslim men. Non muslim men were making the claim (to excuse their actions) that they didnt know the women were muslim…they thought they were prostitutes or slaves etc so according to Islam the prophet was beseeched by the women to find a solution…the prophet prays to god and…walah!!! muslim women are ordered to cover their bodies against WHO…other muslim men? No as those are not the ones that the women were complaining against…no, muslim women were ordered to cover against nonmuslim men. Period. Simple really. Doesnt take a sheik, imam, or prophet to work that one out. Now of course, centuries later….islam being well established and muslim women are more prone to sexual harrassment etc from MUSLIM men than nonmuslim men…I guess they should cover only in front of muslim men and not in front of nonmuslim men. Seems obvious and logical based on history and the purpose of covering…to stop sexual harrassment from men who cant control themselves.

  174. ‘Its very much required to know from where Quran came – a book a lot of non-Muslims hate and a lot of Muslims love’

    And you love the book because you believe that it came from God. Right?

    Do you think that it is possible for a non-Muslim to believe that it IS? Wouldn’t they then BE Muslim? Also, ‘hate’ is a strong word. I don’t ‘hate’ the Quran but I do NOT believe it is from God (how is that possible if I don’t even know that there IS a God?) but I do think it inspires hatred. If there was an all knowing God he would have been sure that his words were definitely for all places and all times and most especially if he says so in his book, right? But here’s the thing, there ARE Muslims that take those verses about jihad against the infidel very seriously and THAT is why some people might ‘hate’ the ambiguous book and think there is no way that something like that could come from a loving God.

  175. ‘Women in the prophets day were ordered to cover WHY? because they were being harrassed and sexually assualted by nonmuslim men.’

    Are you sure about that? Why would non-Muslim men care whether she was Muslim? Do you think they had that much respect for Muslims that they wouldn’t harass their women? I think men, period, harassed and sexually assaulted women but, with a cover, Muslim women will be easily recognized as such and are off limits to Muslim men.

  176. @Lynn,

    As I said before anything negative abt Islam is so famous. You surely know that fatwa of breastfeeding but u might not be knowing that the person who issued that fatwa was removed from his post for his incompetency and declared his fatwa as unislamic. However as usual such fatwa led headlines of the world news.

    Here is my sincere reply of ur question. As per one conference I attended about “Jihad, terrorism and Islam” while I was in University, the scholar explained the conditions of Jihad:

    It should be declared openly by the head(Who can analyse the applicability and concept of Jihad) of a completely sharia-follwed Islamic country, not by any cleric. But, in reality there is no SINGLE ISLAMIC country in the world which follows 100% Shariah law with true spirit. Only 2 countries(Saudi and Iran) in the world declares that they follow Shariah law. But he argued that they are not following shariah law 100% in context. For eg. to keep relgious police is not in Islam when Quran says there is no compulsion in relgion, to disallow women to drive when women were in battle field during Prophet’s time. As there is no Sharia followed country in the world, there is no one to declare Jihad and “NO QUESTION OF JIHAD IN TODAY’s WORLD”. He even gave the example of Palestine and Chechaniya where Muslims are suffering but he suggested that Jihad is not applicable even in these places where human right violation is daily routine. He surely shares the suffering of people in these places but said that Jihad is not applicable.

    PS: There were only Muslims in this conference. His statement about Jihad was purely his analysis on Jihad in Islam but not to show positive image of Islam or to cheat non-Muslims as many here may think :)

  177. @Coolred,

    Can you please share any Hadith (Authentic, reliable with chain of narration) or Quranic verses which proves you statement that “Prophet’s wife used to cover to protect from NON-MUSLIMS”?

    I am approaching 30 years but Sincerely hearing for the first time in my life.

  178. @ Lynn and Coolred38 –

    I wrote very clearly that I am giving him the benefit of the doubt (please do read my comment carefully or do I have to repeat everything?) that he probably does know a lot about Islam and let his “piss-poor mood” get the better of him.

    Why on earth would I not think him ignorant about Islam if his opening statement shows such poor knowledge of the subject…. “There is no concept of sin or morality in Islam”. How is that for “Gross generalizations”. Clearly the man is deliberately, either faking ignorance, is ignorant, just plain venting or indulging his “mood”.
    One would have to be blind not to notice the very rude comment/mindset of Jay…. “Muslims stick their heads where the sun don’t shine.” Everyone can see that he is NOT interested in knowing where he is mistaken about what true Islam is, neither is he interested in a “better impression” of Islam. Jay made that crystal clear – and you all want me to indulge!!?? hahahaha…. very funny.

    Oh, and by the way I am surprised that after all the things you all say about the Muslims, you yourselves can’t even take being referred to as “ignorant on the subject matter” – not even ignorant over all. Just the subject matter! “Muslims scolding” ??!!

    Hilarious!

  179. I do NOT believe it is from God
    ————————————————————-
    @Lynn,

    As an atheist, if u think Quran is not from God, then what u think its from whom or who wrote it? Surely u might be having an idea, opinion or thinking on this.

  180. I never make comments about something of which I know nothing about…or I say I dont know…
    ————————————————————————-

    Coolred38,

    Also some Quranic, Authentic hadith’s proof that Muslim men dont cover to “conquer” non Muslim women??

  181. @Harry,

    Sorry to say this but your arrogance and ignorance continues without replying my Queation -“Who wrote Quran or from where is it?” but dont listen that when u quote a quranic verses u should analyse the time, context, situation, terms and conditions when the verses was revealed”.

    Biggest example is – For mockery, U quoted a Hadith about “Muslims not being punished for killing non-Muslims”. But there is no Muslim country in this world which doesnt punish a Mulsim when he kills a non-Muslim as u PROBABLY know. Arent they Muslims that they are not following this Hadith? Or they they seeing in context?

    Reply, who wrote Quran or from where it came?

  182. “Reply, who wrote Quran or from where it came?”

    Not sure what your fetish is about wanting an answer to your question. Anyways, I believe koran was written by Mohammed with heavy borowing from bible and torah.

  183. Khadeejah, You crack me up! You are now sounding like a Quran. You come out bashing with
    ‘I was going to answer you in a logical step by step fashion till I read these words of yours and realized that YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ISLAM. Where are you coming from Jay? Discussing a subject with someone who does not even know the basics is an utter waste of time for me!’

    And then later sarcastically say (excuse me if I took it wrong)
    ‘My Goodness, you could not be THAT unknowledgable! But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say, that I suppose you know a lot about Islam, and the above comments are just the result of your “Piss-poor mood”. Either way, and which ever way one looks at it – it is a very illogical and non common sense thing to either discuss something one knows nothing about – or to allow one’s “mood” to dictate what one writes in a public forum on the net’

    and end it with ‘As hard as I am trying to, I can’t seem to come up with a justification for your ignorance of the subject matter in this debate. At least not enough, to take you seriously again.’

    and then one last shot for posterity
    ‘But it did tickle me pink to know that there are people out here ( and I will be fair and say, I am sure that this includes both Non-Muslims and Muslims), having passionate, heated discussions about a subject they do not even know the basic premises of ‘

    And now you seriously want to defend yourself as civil by saying
    ‘I wrote very clearly that I am giving him the benefit of the doubt (please do read my comment carefully or do I have to repeat everything?) that he probably does know a lot about Islam and let his “piss-poor mood” get the better of him.
    Why on earth would I not think him ignorant about Islam if his opening statement shows such poor knowledge of the subject…. ‘

    Anyway, I just thought it was funny and kinda reminded me of the Quran and it’s oft changing stance towards non-Muslims. LMAO!!

  184. Belief is the death of intelligence.

    Robert Anton Wilson

  185. I believe koran was written by Mohammed with heavy borowing from bible and torah.
    —————————————————————-
    @Harry,

    U brought 1000 Quranic verses by twisting with an attempt to show that Islam/Muslims are bad but fail to ask why a man will write such a whole book, for what purpose and what benefit?

    But let me refute ur assumption abt Quran.

    Firstly, the claim that Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) wrote the Qur’an is not new. His own people made this claim. In response, to this claim, God revealed the following:
    Say: “It is not for me to change it on my own accord; I only follow that which is
    revealed unto me. Verily, I fear if I were to disobey my Lord, the torment of the
    Great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection).” Say: “If Allah had so willed, I should not have recited it to you nor would He have made it known to you. Verily, I have
    stayed amongst you a life time before this. Have you then no sense?”
    [Qur’an 10:15-16]
    This verse is telling his critics to reflect on the fact that Muhammad (Peace and
    Blessings be upon him) lived amongst them from forty (40) years before reciting the Qur’an to them while never showing any signs of inclination to poetry and themselves knowing that he was illiterate. If he could no t read or write, then where did these magnificent verses come from?
    Also reflect on the fact that Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) is
    commanded in the verses above to “Say” twice. This is a command to make a certain statement to the people. One can find this command “Say” 332 times throughout the Qur’an. In other places in the Qur’an he is ordered to “proclaim”, “Glorify Your Lord”, “Prostrate Yourself” etc. So we ask is this how a man talks to himself or writes a book?

    Also one must consider the fact that even before his Prophethood Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) was known amongst his people as “Al-Amin”, the trustworthy and the truthful. No one ever recorded a lie against him.

    Many Western historians agree with this analysis:
    “If a man like Muhammad were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness.”
    -George Bernard Shaw

    “My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful o n both the religious and secular level.”
    –Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY,
    New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc ., 1978, p. 33

    “Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forg otten by those around him.”
    –Diwan Chand Sharma,
    The Prophets of the East, Calcutta 1935, p. l 22.

    “He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope’s pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports.”
    –Bosworth Smith,
    Mohammad and Mohammadanism, London, 1874, p. 92.

    “Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?”
    Lamartine,
    HISTOIRE DE LA TURQUIE,
    Paris, 1854, Vol. II, pp. 276 -277

    “It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.”
    Annie Besant,
    THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF MUHAMMAD,
    Madras,1932, p. 4.

    “His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.”
    W. Montgomery Watt,
    MOHAMMAD AT MECCA,
    Oxford, 1953, p. 52.

    So, I ask u to reflect on the following:
    Is it logical to believe that Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) who, until the age of forty and, as we mentioned earlier, was known to his people as al-Amin (The Trustworthy) and who is still admired even by Western scholars for his honesty and integrity, all of a sudden began to write a book that is unmatched in literary merit and that has not be matched by legions of the Arab poets and orators of the highest caliber throughout history?
    Is it reasonable to say that Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him), made a false claim and on that very falsehood trained thousands of individuals of outstanding character, integrity, and honesty who were able to establish the best human society that the world has ever known?

  186. ” borowing from bible and torah”

    ——————————————————————
    @Harry,

    Again ur thinking that Muhammad PBUH borrowed from Bible or Taurah to write Quran is completely unacceptable.

    Firstly,
    Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) as mentioned earlier was illiterate and could not copy what he could not read. Please keep in mind what I stated earlier about Muhammad’s (Peace and Blessings
    be upon him) well known impeccable character and the fact that it was known that he was illiterate and that there is also no record of the pagan Arabs in Mecca accusing Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) of not being illiterate. Had he not been illiterate, as the Qur’an itself stated, would this have not been easy to prove during Muhammad’s lifetime by his enemies who were eager to discredit him?

    This fact alone shows that it was common knowledge during his lifetime that he was indeed illiterate and no one questioned this.

    Secondly, even if one were to assume, for argument’s sake, that he could read, then the first Arabic translation of what is known as the “Old Testament” was not produced until some two hundred (200) years after Muhammad’s (Peace and Blessings be upon him) death and the first Arabic translation of the “New Testament” did not appear until one thousand years after his death.
    Sidney Griffith, after extensive study, concludes that:

    All one can say about the possibility of a pre-Islamic, Christian version of the Gospel in Arabic is that no sure sign of its actual existence has yet emerged.
    -“The Gospel In Arabic: An Enquiry Into Its Appearance In The First Abbasid Century”,
    Oriens Christianus,
    Volume 69, p. 166

    Ernst Würthwein states in his book The Text Of The Old Testament that:
    With the victory of Islam the use of Arabic spread widely, and for Jews and Christians in the conquered lands it became the language of daily life. This gave rise to the need of Arabic versions of the Bible, which need was met by a number of versions mainly independent and concerned primarily for interpretation.
    -The Text Of The Old Testament, 1988, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids,
    Michigan, pp. 104.

    So it is clear that no Arabic translations of the Bible or the Apocrypha existed during the lifetime of Muhammad (Peace and Blessing be upon him)

    Thirdly, the historical evidence suggests that there was no Christian or Jewish influence in the Hijaz (Inner part of the Arabian Peninsula) and particularly in Makkah where Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) was born and raised.

    Before the birth of Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) the Hijaz was for the most part ignored by the major empires of that time (The Persian and Roman) and left isolated with the exception of the time of when the Ethiopian King Abraha briefly tried and failed to conquer Makkah during the year Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) was born.

    The New Catholic Encyclopedia states concerning the time of the Muhammad (Peaceand Blessings be upon him) that:
    The Hijaz [Arabian Peninsula] had not been touched by Christian preaching. Hence organization of the Christian church was neither to be expected nor found.
    -New Catholic Encyclopedia, Op.Cit, Vol. 1, pp. 721-722

    There is a wealth of historical evidence to show similar evidence that there was no Christian influence in the Hijaz where Muhammad (Peace and Blessing be upon him) lived, so we must ask ourselves who then would have taught him the Bible (which were not even in Arabic) for him to later take from these sources, that he would have had to memorize, to later write the Qur’an?
    The Hijaz was so isolated that four men from amongst the Makkans who were
    searching for the true religion of Abraham had to leave Makkah in search of it. Waraqa Ibn Nawfal, was amongst them and returned as a Christian.

    Fourthly, the Qur’an itself answers these claims that someone was teaching
    Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) and at the same time points to the fact that the Arabic used in the Qur’an is pure.

    And indeed We know that they (The Disbelievers) say: “It is only a human being who teaches him (Muhammad Peace and Blessings be upon him).” The tongue of the man they refer to is foreign, while this (the Qur’an) is a clear Arabic tongue.
    [Qur'an 16:103]
    The Qur’an also says referring to Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him)Neither did you (Muhammad, Peace and Blessing be upon him) read any book before it (the Qur’an), nor did you write any book with your hand. In that case, indeed, the followers of falsehood might have doubted
    [Qur'an 29:48]
    This argument was answered over one thousand four hundred years ago, by the Qur’an itself, yet these critics are still unable to provide any new evidence for their erroneous claims.

    So, ur assumption that Quran was written by Muhammad PBUH and it was copied from Bible ets is baseless WITHOUT FACTS.

  187. ‘Is it reasonable to say that Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him), made a false claim and on that very falsehood trained thousands of individuals of outstanding character, integrity, and honesty who were able to establish the best human society that the world has ever known?’

    That’s YOUR opinion, if you had been paying attention I think he may be trying to say that your opinion does not have a lot of merit based on certain facts that make that ‘best human society’ not quite so wonderful (especially for those who refused to accept Islam) How can something that calls for death of someone, simply because they do not want to belong to the religion anymore, be considered so outstanding or the best of human society?

    Do you realize that there are human beings that are/were the VERY best that the world has ever known and they didn’t even belong to any religion? Do you believe that that is even possible?

  188. @Lynn,

    Thanks for pointing out..my statement can be misunderstood.
    I said “thousands of individuals” who are trained under “falsehood ” and who could run/establish human society from that tribal, animalistic Arab world. I dnt say all Muslims trained were of immpeccable characters. But u can agree that there can be 1000s of great individuals among Muslims too?

    What other points u disagree about my reply for Origin of Quran?

  189. Belief is the death of intelligence.

    Robert Anton Wilson
    ———————————————————

    @Wendy,

    what abt the belief of renowned writers and authors, social activists who “believed” as I quoted above?

  190. ‘But u can agree that there can be 1000s of great individuals among Muslims too?’

    Do you seriously have to ask that? How many times have I, and I know Jay and Jerry and others who appear as Islamophobes have said that there ARE good Muslims just as there are good people everywhere. I don’t think anyone is saying that Islam cannot produce good people but I have heard it said that they are good people in spite of their holy book that they have chosen to interpret peacefully. Do you deny that bad people, who happen to be Muslim, read the very same words as you and come up with hatred and violence? HOW is that even possible?

  191. Do you deny that bad people, who happen to be Muslim, read the very same words as you and come up with hatred and violence? HOW is that even possible?
    —————————————————————–
    @Lynn,

    I was explaning my statement but not asking u.

    Bad people will be bad even without any Quran or Bible. Only difference is that when bad things are mixed with Quran things sell more :)

    A bible reader priest also can be paedophile or can force a nun to have sex, a bible reader can also run ETAH terrorist group agree? So, they dnt need any book but they feel excused when they use religion. Same thing can happen with a person who read Quran also. Thats why there is heaven and hell.

  192. ‘A bible reader priest also can be paedophile’

    But does he use scripture to justify being a pedophile?

    However, Muslims DO use the traditions of their religion to justify marriage to 9 yr olds, right? Or is there a fatwa out there against that?

  193. @ azad – if one believes without thinking what one believes and questioning what was written so many years ago then it’s the death of intelligence in many ways.

  194. About jihad

    I am probably older than most of you and I assure you that I never heard the meaning of ‘jihad’ to be anything but holy war until about 20 years ago. As said above, this concept of greater and lesser jihad is a recent innovation that Muslims use to avoid the mortification caused by the naked aggression inherent in that term. But then again, why the surprise… Muslims will not even admit that their prophet attacked his neighbors dozens of times without provocation, so why is it hard to believe they will misrepresent a concept they find embarrassing?

    If any of you had actually bothered to read the Quran, you would have noticed that to do this “struggle in the way of Allah” a Muslim must leave home and could get killed. Note also the surah dedicated to the “spoils of war”. Where exactly does this plunder come from? Donations? Lottery? Found it under grandma’s bed?

    One last small thing. Here is a link to the MSA-USC collection of hadith:

    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/search.html

    Now go down to the ‘search the hadith’ box, type the letters J-I-H-A-D in the box and press the ‘Enter’ key.

    You will get a ‘database search results’ page with all references using that word (check all boxes for all four collections).

    Pick any reference, pick all, I don’t care.

    Now show me exactly where the term ‘jihad’ is used in any sense other that ‘religious fighting’ and ‘holy war’ against non-Muslims.

    And I am the ignorant one here, right

  195. Now for the sweet stuff. It is obvious to all that we have some serious disagreements here. That is fine and I think it really matters little in the big scheme of things. To me, this conversations really shows that there is no hope of any ‘middle ground’ on this issue. Opinions are too strong, differences to great.

    We can only hope that in the real world, in the streets and classrooms, in offices and markets, these differences will be ignored. We hope. I kind of think this will not happen but I could be wrong. I hope I am wrong.

    The fact is that the people who post here really care about things. We have our differences but we must recognize sincerity and commitment. We all are certainly grateful for carol’s patience, understanding and neutrality that gives us a chance to express our opinions. Whatever else it is, we all must admit that Am Bedu is very educational.

    Guys, we have the world in our hands. We have thousands of years of history as well as some of the greatest works of literature in this world as an intellectual and historical canvas to paint our arguments and passions. That is why I come back here. It is because of people like carol, lynn, red, wendy and yes, khadeejah and yes, azad and other muslims. If I have insulted you, my apologies.

    You guys take care and I’m going to bed.

  196. Lynn…”Are you sure about that? Why would non-Muslim men care whether she was Muslim? Do you think they had that much respect for Muslims that they wouldn’t harass their women?”

    According to Islamic history etc…the nonmuslims at the time that were so dead set against Islam getting a foothold would use any and all means to throw a spanner in the works so to speak. Among other things the men would harrass the newly minted muslim women but claim they thought they were prostitutes or slave women because they couldnt tell the difference (and of course prostitutes and slave women had to submit to sexual harrassment suiting their social position) Of course the men knew exactly who the women were but just wanted to cause the most amount of chaos as possible among the newly forming band of muslims. As I said…the muslim women complained to the prophet…he of course couldnt face all those unruly men with pleas to behave as they wouldnt listen of course, feigning ignorance…so he prayed to god for a solution. God sends down and ayat telling the believing women to cover in order to be known…as in..there is no way those nonmuslim men can claim they didnt know you were muslim women…therefore any harrassing they do now will be obvious and unexcusable etc. I might add that the prophets wives were ordered to completely cover because on of his sahaba would lie in wait and watch his wives leave their homes at night to visit the toilets that were outside….he felt it wasnt right that they should be freely moving around like that for anyone to see and told the prophet that….and what do you know…an ayat comes down ordering the prophets wives to cover completely and hide behind a sheet if talking to a man etc etc. At the end of the day, muslim women generally and the prophets wives specifically were forced to cover because nonmuslim men wouldnt leave them alone and one of the sahabah wouldnt stop spying on them out by the toilets. Rather than god correct the mens behavior…he just ordered women to cover their bodies thus setting a dress code for women that has existed to this day…thanks to men.

  197. Khadija…”Oh, and by the way I am surprised that after all the things you all say about the Muslims, you yourselves can’t even take being referred to as “ignorant on the subject matter” – not even ignorant over all. Just the subject matter! “Muslims scolding”

    Im not sure who “you all” are that your referring to here…but I have never called muslims anything derogatory in my comments…ignorant included. Please dont lump us all together. And I am not ignorant about Islam so I know your not speaking to me right there. And I notice you still did not correct his ignorance.

  198. Azad…”Can you please share any Hadith (Authentic, reliable with chain of narration) or Quranic verses which proves you statement that “Prophet’s wife used to cover to protect from NON-MUSLIMS”?

    I am approaching 30 years but Sincerely hearing for the first time in my life”

    Asad…I dont make it a habit to copy and paste LONG comments covering the same material again and again concerning the quran…hadith etc. If you (any you) are well read in islamic literature and history than you would have read pretty much the same things I have read…and as I posted in my comment to Lynn…its a well known story about the prophets wives being spied on while visiting the outdoor toilets. If you havent read it in 30 years then Im left scratching my head for you. Must be one of those well kept secrets.

  199. @Jay – thank you for your apology it comes as a very pleasant surprise and a reminder for all of us not let our selves get carried away – and I apologize if I offended you in any way. How true, this blog is nothing but educational. I am beginning to wonder about how great the divide is myself Jay, and like you, hope that in the real world those differences can be ignored.

    @Lynn -YOU REALLY CANNOT TAKE A DOSE OF YOUR OWN MEDICINE NOW CAN YOU.Even if it is given to you in small doses. How very interesting.

    @Coolred38 – If you have never passed derogatory comments about Islam than please accept my apology for including you in my comment. As for not correcting Jay’s ignorance – please read my comments again – I said he could be ignorant or could have been saying all this for other reasons – It is confusing that you keep asking the same thing over and over again ;) Once again my apology for including you Coolred.

    I sign off too – I hope that everyone has a great life, full of happiness, love and contentment. As humans we all deserve that, at the very least.

    With the best of regards – Khadeejah

  200. @Lynn -YOU REALLY CANNOT TAKE A DOSE OF YOUR OWN MEDICINE NOW CAN YOU.Even if it is given to you in small doses. How very interesting.

    Huh? Communication is NOT your strong suit, is it Khadeejah?

  201. “Huh? Understanding” (even if it is the simplest of things) “is NOT your strong suit, is it” Lynn?

    Hmmm – Always wanting the last word Lynn? Well you can have it :)

    Take care now – K

  202. You seem to always talk about these ‘simple things’. All I ask is that you elaborate and make sure that you make sense because you KNOW I’m going to question you. Clear language please, much like above where you said ‘Not you Lynn – your point was valid.’ THAT was very clear and made a LOT of sense! ;-)

  203. It was clear Lynn because it went in your favor ;)

    My language could not be any clearer,coherent and make more sense. Now if your criteria of sense is stuff that you personally find agreeable then sorry, I cannot oblige you there. As much as I enjoy verbal volleying with you, and I do – I don’t want to be stuck in a never ending circle – as neither of us seems to be the kind of person who gives in easily :)

    Ciao Lynn

  204. I don’t see it as ‘giving in’ I’m only asking you to be clear with your communications to others here for the sake of exchanging ideas and perspectives. How is it conducive to learning if you just jump in and scold with a ‘you know NOTHING about Islam so we can’t have a discussion’

    Perhaps it’s just me? Did anyone else perhaps see where Khadeejah added anything of value to the conversation that Carol started? (Besides the part where she validated ME and MY points, of course, that was CLEARLY very valuable ;-) )

  205. Oh well, I guess I better get busy. I’m having family over (well, about 30 of them anyway) to celebrate Father’s Day with a BBQ/Pool party. Trying to make a nice Father’s Day for my husband even if the only surviving child he has refuses to acknowledge the day since becoming Muslim. Do you think they would put his tearful video on their ‘My Fellow American’ site?

    Happy Father’s Day to all the daddies out there!

  206. Lynn, on June 19, 2011 at 5:46 am said:

    ‘A bible reader priest also can be paedophile’

    But does he use scripture to justify being a pedophile?

    However, Muslims DO use the traditions of their religion to justify marriage to 9 yr olds, right? Or is there a fatwa out there against that?
    ————————————————————————————-

    I havent seen fatwa asking people to marry when a gal reach 9 years old exactly.
    Whether he use scripture or not, he is benefiting from the misuse of religion. He is doing something against the trust that people keep in a church or or Masjid or priest as religious figure.

    For me it doesnt matter, whether a criminal or rapist or bomber use religious shield or not. But What I know is they do similar damage to common people but the criminal feel excused when he holds religious figure or use religion as a tool.

  207. @Jay,

    I greatly appreciate your heartfelt and sincere words. It is always a pleasure for me to read your comments and views. I like the straight talk.

    Now to all, I also agree that their are some divides which may never be cemented but at least we know where each other stands.

    There are more Muslims in the USA and the average American is getting greater exposures to those of the Muslim faith. Which is better? Knowing that you have a Muslim in your neighborhood or would you prefer having a “closet Muslim” in your neighborhood? What does one expect of a Muslim neighbor? What does a Muslim expect of a non-Muslim neighbor?

    I remember when I was visiting my son in the States while I was living in Pakistan. We were taking a walk around the neighborhood and saw a family in their yard. He was wearing the traditional shalwar and his wife was in traditional dress too. They gave us a reserved smile when we passed but I could not just pass…I stopped and exchanged Salam Alaikum’s following up in Urdu how were they doing. The couple just blossomed and eventually told us how excited they were to now be living in America and the opportunities they saw for themselves and their children.

    I don’t know why I’m writing about that experience but it just stands out in my mind right now. I don’t know…I think that oftentimes it is easy to pre-judge and stay defensive for once we allow a crack to open we make ourselves vulnerable.

  208. Coolred38,

    U might be knowing that there are millions of story floating around in internet. As per Islam, a message should be verified and confirmed before passing to 2nd person. We can not do any amal on hearsay stuff. Even there are 1000s hadith floating around which are disregarded as un-authentic and unreliable, then how can u think that Muslim should accept such story of urs that can not be shown from authentic Hadith or Quran? Your story is baby tale, without reliable facts. I am not saying that u really didnt hear or read it but heard or read it from un-authentic source.

  209. I WELCOME ANY1 TO REFUTE MY REPLY ON ORIGIN OF QURAN. ANY1 ONE CAN COME UP AND CLAIM THAT QURAN IS NOT FROM GOD. I AM READY TO REPLY LOGICALLY WITH PROOF. U CAN SHARE UR OPINION ON “WHO WROTE QURAN IF ITS NOT FORM GOD?” AND DISCUSS IN HEALTHY WAY WITHOUT NAME CALLING. I WILL REPLY BASED ON UR OPINION. I CAN PROVE THAT QURAN IS FROM GOD.

    After all we are all human being having same color of blood even though we are different in race, religion, origin. We should not fight each other due to the hatred created/spread by some anti-social elements. We can always discuss in positive way.

  210. @ azad – if one believes without thinking what one believes and questioning what was written so many years ago then it’s the death of intelligence in many ways.
    ————————————————————————–
    @Wendy,

    Of course u r right, one should think and analyse, and ask question. I never said that one should believe without questioning. We can also think why great writers and authors appreciated such a person Muhammad who is abused by many sections of the society. Why 1.5 billion human beings follow such religion as instructed by such a man. There is logic in both sides, so analysis is very much required.

    In between, u asked me to show good news abt Muslims/Islams. In fact its not possible to show all here. But, any good thing u find in a non-Muslim, I can show in Islam/Muslim too. Let me know on what topic u want. After all Islam is followed by 1.5 billion people from East to west. U will find every kind of news, good, bad, worst, best, horrible, most horrible, loveable, most loveable etc.

  211. Lynn: “Did anyone else perhaps see where Khadeejah added anything of value to the conversation that Carol started?”

    Honestly, I didn’t see anything of value that she contributed on this thread or any other thread, including her interview a while back. She comes across as “missy goody two shoes” who is an authority on islam and everything else. She takes great pride in the fact that she left Pakistan at a very young age and got educated in the West (London?). She looks down snobbishly at others because of that.

    We have a sizeable community of pakistani expats here in seattle. Many are sons and daughters of former ministers and high officials, who enjoy a lavish lifestyle of the rich and famous; yet they are not employed. Because of very high corruption in Pakistan, they squirrel away their “bribes” in off-shore accounts. And when there is a change in government (which there have been many), they apply for asylum (many times falsely) in the west along with their families. Their “attitude” toward others, especially their fellow pakistanis, is one of contempt, snobbishness and “I am better than you”.

  212. I am sorry that folks have misinterpreted Khadeejah. She is not a snob or has “airs.” She has led an interesting life and one full of rich life experiences. She and her husband are true free spirits and entrepreneurs who have created their own destiny. One of the things I have always valued of Khadeejah is her confidence, compassion and loyalty.

    It’s funny…I had not thought about it before but I am seeing that certain “cliques” form on blogs as well! Life just gets more and more interesting.

  213. Azad…thanks for your lesson/lecture on hadith and how to judge them. While Im sure your intentions are good…I dont need a man (or anyone) to explain to me how to judge the authenticity of hadith. Once again….I never said I read this on the net…I prefer books myself…and I had the entire collection of Bukhari hadith before….I ended up burning the lot of them much to the ire of my then husband (better than throwing them in the garbage far as Im concerned). Here i was thinking Bukhari was the beginning and end when it came to hadith??? Whatever….it still does not matter to me in the least what you believe about me….Im quite sure I shall still get a good nights sleep despite your belittling my intelligence. Have a good day.

  214. ‘I am sorry that folks have misinterpreted Khadeejah. She is not a snob or has “airs.’

    Not at all, it’s just that she doesn’t SAY anything besides telling people that they are wrong or evil or ignorant or whatever it is.

    I am seeing that certain “cliques” form on blogs as well!

    Yes, I see that too. ;-)

  215. “Sons and daughters of former ministers and high govt officials who enjoy the lavish life style of the rich and famous.They squirrel away their “bribes” in offshore accounts…..apply for asylum…..falsely…..their attitude towards others is one of contempt, snobishness and I am better than you”

    Harry you just passed personal remarks about me and my family that crossed the line of decency! A very low down thing to do. Something I would not have expected from any of you, no matter how desperate you got.

    From the start I have been wondering what it was that was bothering some of you,so much about me, and now through your own words you have given it away. Anyone who reads Harry’s comments and is half way intelligent will see it.

    So long as a muslim fits your stereo typical image of being, uneducated, poor, with no self pride, your intimidating tactics work. Any muslim who stands up for them selves, on your turf, in your language, using your tone back on you – you can’t stand it!! How would you feel if I inferred things about your family. Shame on you. But I am not going to stoop down to your level. Anyone with even an iota of decency will see that freedom of speech does not include personal attacks on family or individuals. I feel sorry for you Harry.You must be very desperate – or the grapes are just sour.

    The rest of you, get used to it. There are millions of muslims out there, who are honest, confident, well traveled, highly educated, smart, intelligent, and are not intimidated by verbal abuse and the tactics usually used by and reserved for petty street thugs.

    Carol/Bedu – sorry but it is a shame that under the guise of freedom of speech what defamation this blog is being used for by certain individuals. A major line was crossed tonight which is simply unforgivable. I am bothering to write this comment against my better judgment, as people with such low down mentalities don’t deserve responses. Sorry Carol but enough is enough.

  216. Khadija…personal attacks are not only common tactics here…they are condoned…depending who is doing it and who is receiving it. Get use to it or leave…nothing changes.

  217. Coolred, :-)

    I just wish that I was able to understand how people can get so deeply offended just because you do not agree with them or what they believe in. I really AM trying though. I would think it would get very tiresome carrying such a huge chip on their shoulder all the time.

  218. @ azad
    I do know the individual Muslims do good things. I am married into a Muslim family. I would like to hear stories of Muslim groups standing up and protesting violence such as the murders of innocent peoples after the Koran burning in the USA. I want to hear those kinds of stories. When I don’t see them, hear them, read them (in mosque papers) then I must think they are condoned by the many.
    I want to hear these stories so I can assure others that they need not fear Islam but alas, I can’t do that and it’s rather sad don’t you think?

  219. @Azad – ‘I WELCOME ANY1 TO REFUTE MY REPLY ON ORIGIN OF QURAN. ANY1 ONE CAN COME UP AND CLAIM THAT QURAN IS NOT FROM GOD’

    That is really not at ALL relevant to this discussion. Why do you still think that it is important that we believe that it is from ‘God’? All that matters is that YOU or MUSLIMS believe that it is. I really don’t know how you could expect a non-Muslim to believe it. Or are you attempting to convert people or something?

  220. Azad…

    It is important to remember that while you think that the Quran is from God many people do not share your belief. Just as many don’t share the belief that the bible was divinely inspired….and you know what? That is OK. Belief is exactly that…having faith in something that is not provable. For YOU it might be provable in your mind, but for others who are not muslim no matter what you say it isn’t proof…they don’t believe for a reason and it isn’t always “ignorance of islam”. Perhaps they find Islam distasteful and full of ideas that they reject. Some people feel the same way about the bible. Does it really matter? As long as YOU are happy with your faith and don’t try to make ME (in the general sense) believe in it and keep your faith to yourself then that is fine. People will endlessly debate about the validity of Islam on this blog (and about other faiths I am sure on Muslim blogs and this one too) as it is dedicated to Saudi.

    I find one of the biggest “problems” with Muslims I have met on the blogs is that they get very offended if someone doesn’t believe in Islam. WHY? Isn’t it between you and Allah? If you are sure you are on the right train to heaven, why would you be insulted that someone else thinks you are not? Is their opinion greater than your own to you? I can understand wanting to dispel what you consider “misinformation”, but you cannot prove that the Quran is from God…in order to believe the so called proof, one must first believe that the Quran IS from God. Otherwise the proof is nothing more than a collection of words in a book written down by people and therefore open to corruption by man.

  221. ‘Which is better? Knowing that you have a Muslim in your neighborhood or would you prefer having a “closet Muslim” in your neighborhood? What does one expect of a Muslim neighbor? What does a Muslim expect of a non-Muslim neighbor?’

    I don’t care what religion my neighbors are. The only thing I expect of my neighbors is that they keep their property nice and are respectful of my property and my family, I will be friendly to my neighbors but if they want to keep to themselves that is fine too. What religion they are, like their sexual preferences are not my concern unless they want to share it (as long as they don’t share TOO much, too often :-))

    ‘…I think that oftentimes it is easy to pre-judge and stay defensive for once we allow a crack to open we make ourselves vulnerable.’

    So, in this case you are speaking of the Pakistani with the reserved smile that opened up after YOU showed that it was safe because you were ‘one of them’? How do you think it would have gone down if it been just your son that was walking past them and stopped to smile at the woman and chat and ask them where they were from etc?

  222. I think even if it had been just my son walking past and stopping to say ‘hello’ to a Pakistani family the reaction would still have been positive. One thing Abdullah loved so much about our neighborhood in Virginia were the walks and passing by neighbors who would smile and/or stop to pass the time of day.

    It’s funny when I think of our neighborhood in Virginia…the American born American’s were the minority on our street! Even though we came from different places we were old fashioned neighbors who knew one another and looked out after another. My Saudi husband even volunteered to take care of our neighbors large dogs when they were on holiday!

  223. Did your neighbors in Virginia have ‘reserved’ smiles like you said that Pakistani neighbor of your son had?

  224. Not that I remember. We had a diverse neighborhood and also would have block parties which were great ways to get to know one another.

  225. “Did anyone else perhaps see where Khadeejah added anything of value to the conversation that Carol started?”

    YES she added a great deal of value; her come backs towards the derogatory comments about anything to do with Islam as well as Muslims from previous comment, even though that person has now apologised. She is only defending her values and attitudes as well as her chosen belief system, why shouldn’t she have that right like everyone else?

    “Khadeejah, You crack me up! You are now sounding like a Quran”

    @Lynn: I found that to be really offensive. Just my opinion. You may not care, but sometimes we get carried away in trying to say something smart or better than the last commenter… that we don’t realise what was said could really hurt another especially knowing that the Quran is sacred for Muslims around the world..

    Also just wanted to add on the Father’s Day comment..i am sure ure husband knows that his daughter loves him very much and does not need presents or a “happy fathers day” to remind him of it? Just my thoughts obviously i totally understand why your daughter chose not to celebrate.. but then again he should feel special all the time rite? Maybe she should buy him things through-out the year to make up for that?

  226. I don’t think Fathers Day is about “buying things”. It’s about the special bond between father and children. Of course there doesn’t need to be only one day of the year for this to be celebrated but I suppose it does give some people a reminder. I get the impression Lynn’s daughter is not close to her father period so I believe her missing out on the Fathers Day BBQ is only a small portion of the issues they are dealing with as a family.

    I hope you don’t mind my comment Lynn but I do remember over the years how you’ve stated you’ve had many issues with how your daughter has treated you and your family since her conversion to Islam. In spite of her absence at the BBQ I hope things are at least getting a little better. Who knows, maybe she has something else planned to do with your husband as a way to make up for missing that day?

  227. I don’t know the ins and out of Lynns family, although its always sad to hear if there may be problems or tension between family members that although love each other very much sometimes because the decisions we make in our lives may have an everlasting effect on certain individuals in the family.
    I was just commenting on the Lynns comment, not knowing about previous family history.

  228. By the way Bella, you did not reply to our questions earlier about when you stated “you are all showing your true colors now”, or something to that effect. I think perhaps you need to remember your own advice to Lynn and remember even your own hurried words can offend others. I’m not trying to start an argument here, I’m just pointing this out to you, hope you understand.

    I also disagree with Harry stating Khadejah’s comments didn’t add any value here. I have serious issues with that statement as you may know from my previous experience here with another commenter who continued to discount my every comment as valueless.

    I enjoyed Khadejah’s (sorry if I’m not spelling your name correctly, i’m too lazy to scroll up) interview and tried to remind everyone here to extend her more courtesy given she was a guest at that time. I do however, brace yourself here, agree with some other commenters (was it Lynn?) when they said she did not address a lot of the issues that were raised by some non-Muslim commenters, she simply told them off. Granted the manner in which they were discussing things was a bit haphazard at best but I do get a bit confused myself when someone raises an issue but they’re only told off about their style or strong opinions yet their questions or concerns are essentially ignored. Now, please don’t misunderstand me, it was wrong that Khadejah was personally attacked, but she is intelligent and is very capable of debating therefore I would love to see her take on their arguments and start a real dialogue here. I do realize that we must all choose our battles carefully though. ;)

    The best to you all, please don’t misunderstand my words here.

  229. @Rosemary, Yes u have a point about the “true colours” statement, thank you for bringing it my attention… i said it while i was upset after reading some comments and let my emotions take over. So yes i totally agree i shud take my own advice on this.
    Although i still voiced my views on something that i found to be a bit hurtful . But anyway like i said point taken.

    Sure you can agree with Lynn about Khadeeja not answering certain things and maybe that’s something you can bring up with Khadeeja.

  230. Lynn, I’m sorry your daughter choose not to be there for Father’s Day. As you already know some of the most extreme Muslims just refuse to participate in anything they don’t intitiate within very limited boundaries. Of course there is no Islamic reason a daughter can’t go to a barbeque with her father. Unless it was spare ribs. I hope one day she can loosen up a bit.

  231. @Bella Vita – @Lynn: I found that to be really offensive. Just my opinion

    I’m sorry if MY opinion offends you. I’m am sure that YOU have many opinions that offend me. If you are easily offended by other’s opinions then perhaps you should shield yourself from them?

    @Rosemary – ‘I also disagree with Harry stating Khadejah’s comments didn’t add any value here.’

    That was me, and that was not about ANY and ALL of her comments ‘Here’ as in On AmericanBedu.com but on this particular post when she didn’t say anything but scolding someone for their opinions. The comment would have had value had she explained HOW they were ‘wrong’ in what they had said rather than the standard I can’t talk to you because you are ignorant of Islam kind of thing. See the difference? It had nothing at all to do with her interview.

    ‘In spite of her absence at the BBQ I hope things are at least getting a little better. Who knows, maybe she has something else planned to do with your husband as a way to make up for missing that day?’

    Actually she is not even in the country right now, perhaps she would have attended had she been here. Don’t know. But of course it doesn’t have anything to do with gifts. Parents don’t want or need gifts from their children (at least not any that I know). After Mother’s Day my husband had emailed her and told her about what we did that day and said it would have been nice if you had perhaps at least e-mailed you mother and her response was ‘We don’t celebrate that so why would I think about it?’ Just like our birthdays I suppose. ;-) We are used to her behaviors in that regard but right now is a pretty sensitive time. We are VERY upset that she would decide that a mere 4 months after our son’s death she chose to pick up and take off to a dangerous place (Pakistan, not far from where bin Laden was found. Do I need to describe what kind of bundle of nerves I was?) with our grandson for 4 months. (Not just ANY 4 months but 4 months that would include her birthday, my son’t birthday, Mother’s Day, Father’s Day AND our grandson’s birthday) But, to top it all off, when I expressed my worry and concerns she had to go off on me and threaten (no less that 3 times) to not allow us to be a part of our grandson’s life if I was going to continue to try to control them, manipulate them or whatever it was that my concerns did. After our son died the only thing that could make us smile was seeing that sweet little boy’s face and she was taking that away from us and threatening to do it permanently if we ever express our feelings again. I am going to have a hard time trying to forgive her for that. It gets especially hard when they don’t even ASK for forgiveness, eh? You don’t even have to ask what we think about those who encouraged her to take that trip knowing the situation (this was NOT a trip that had been pre-planned AND her husband was not even escorting them). Once again, it appears that compassion is something that is reserved for Muslims only. That is my opinion based on my personal experiences and if that offends anyone then they need to toughen up and not take people’s opinions so personally! ;-)

  232. @Lynn: Like i said lynn it was just my opinion.
    That situation with ure daughter is so sad. I cannot imagine what you are going through, maybe ure daughter is going through some personal issues and is taking it out on u? i don’t know but i hope that you get to see your grandson soon InshAllah.

  233. @Bella Vita – Thank you for your good wishes.

    ‘Although i still voiced my views on something that i found to be a bit hurtful’

    You mean the comment that said ‘Looks like everyone’s showing their true colours’ ?

    How do you think you could re-write that comment so that your views were expressed? What does ‘true colors’ mean? Were the comments that had offended you shown a side of those commenters that they had previously tried to hide? That’s how I understand that expression anyway. Perhaps you meant something else?

    Remember, as Cindy Lauper said
    ‘But I see your true colors shining through
    I see your true colors and that’s why I love you
    so don’t be afraid to let them show your true colors
    true colors are beautiful like a rainbow’

  234. Oh Lynn…

    Your story really touches my heart…

    My prayers are with you and of course for your daughter’s and grandson’s safe return.

    If, as Sandy said, islamically there is no reason she can’t participate in a BBQ or some other family event, then I am wondering if she is purposely trying to put a wedge between you and herself. Perhaps to justify to others her “muslimness”. We don’t celebrate some Indian holidays here, but we are always aware that they are important to other members of my husband’s family and send good wishes or sometimes a gift…so of course her comment about not thinking about it is silly. If she truly believes what she is saying and how she is acting toward you then I think you and the rest of us do have a right to be concerned about Salafi/Wahabbi/saudi islam and all it’s baggage as it is not peaceful, but devisive.

    Please don’t take my words in a harsh way. I do not mean it unkindly.

  235. @oby – thank you for your good wishes.

    ‘If she truly believes what she is saying and how she is acting toward you then I think you and the rest of us do have a right to be concerned about Salafi/Wahabbi/saudi islam and all it’s baggage as it is not peaceful, but devisive’

    EXACTLY, that is my only reason for sharing about it.

  236. When she was still living here and I would stalk her internet usage and postings etc (just good parenting) I noticed a bunch of contributions she had made on a an Islamic forum. The subject was ‘honoring your mother’. She had ALL kinds of contributions to add about how a Muslim could honor their mother. Cracked me UP considering that she never even considered doing any of them herself.

  237. I sense that your daughter Lynn is very confused and going through a significant identity crisis. For whatever reason she believes she is finding herself through religion. Yet I sense that while she is going through this crisis, she is fearful of expressing herself as an American. I can not imagine what you have to be feeling and going through. It seems clear she is with a group who are determined to influence and mold her. Perhaps when she returns to the States there would be a chance to help her with the assistance of moderate Muslims? It’s obvious she is responding to what she believes is the Islamic right and therefore she may pay closer attention and better see her actions through the eyes of a moderate Muslim. This is just a thought. My heart and prayers are with you.

  238. She does not listen to ‘moderate Musims’ in her view they are ‘messed up’.
    I found her a ‘moderate Muslim’ woman therapist that we went to until she determined that the therapist was ‘messed up’. OY! But seriously, most of her friends that I have met appear to be ‘moderate Muslims’ so I have to wonder why it is that a ‘moderate Muslim’ enables such behavior? (ex: attending and congratulating her on her wedding etc) But how do you know if one is a ‘moderate Muslim’ ? I wonder if they have a listing for them in the Yellow Pages under Moderate Muslims? But you have to know, even just from the comments between Muslims on here, that one person’s ‘moderate Muslim’ is another person’s BAD Muslim. No? I can only hope that some Sufi rubbed off on her while she’s been in Pakistan. Well, that and also that she had such a miserable time that she will NEVER wish to go there again ;-)

  239. I think a moderate Muslim would have discouraged her from the type of marriage she was placed into, especially if they had an inkling her family had no knowledge of her actions.

  240. I guess perhaps the desire for their fellow Pakistani with the expired visa to get a Green Card was more important?

  241. @Lynn: Hey lynn, in regards to your comment on
    ‘Although i still voiced my views on something that i found to be a bit hurtful’

    That was for the comment u made about khadeeja sounding like a quran, but thats in the past now, so i just wanted to let u know it wasn’t about the true colours thing.

    From my understanding there is only one Islam and those people that call themselves of that religion are Muslims. So i steer clear of calling myself any “Type” of muslim because your actions should speak louder then words i guess and what is “moderate” like u said Lynn..We cannot mould muslims into what everyone wants them to be. we are humans we come in all shapes and sizes we have emotional/cultural baggage like everyone else and we have sects and different schools of thought to add to that, so to say “moderate”…..by whose standard??

    I just wanted to add about ure daughter. If she came to Islam through knowing someone, usually that person has a huge impact on the way she will practise. I cannot relate to this as it was through my own research that i came to Islam, but i have seen this from friends. They will almost “copy cat” that person who “guided” them to Islam and then as they grow within the religion and read and study more then they develop as well and change and realise that maybe.. no i don’t agree 100% with this and that. There are many different opinions on many different things in Islam. That is the beauty of Islam, its not just black and white (pillars and articles of faith excluded).
    Look i don’t want to make it seem all rosy because obviously you and your family are so hurt by some things that she has done, by i don’t think her new religion can be the only thing to blame. I think she is just acting out and the religion is the excuse.

    @Oby: ‘Salafi/Wahabbi/saudi islam and all it’s baggage as it is not peaceful, but devisive’
    Do you know what those terms mean? salafi and wahabi? just curious thanks
    ,

  242. Bella Vita – Although she did have a couple Muslim friends and one did send her ‘Sunday School’ book home with with her, she did her own research (mainly appeared to be IslamiCity.com and SunniPath.com) and considering that she was a 12 year old competitive overachiever there was no way that she would let someone else know more than her or do something ‘better’ than her. So I guess, when you follow the book by the letter that’s what you come up with. I kept telling her that she was not ‘getting it’, that praising Hitler etc was not what Islam was all about (as far as I had known at the time and this was shortly after 9-11 and I was defending Islam and Muslims) I finally took one of her free Saudi printed Qurans she’d ordered from the Web and read it and I was just astounded at what I read there! It did not take long for me to realize that if there was a God, and she was a loving God, she certainly hadn’t dictated that book! Trust that I did not end my research there and it has been about 9 years now, probably longer than you yourself have been a Muslim? Her ‘acting out’ has gone on quite a while, eh?

    ‘Do you know what those terms mean? salafi and wahabi? just curious thanks’

    Seriously? Why would you ask a question like that? What’s she going to say? no? Do you think she just used those terms because she likes the way they sound/look? lol

  243. Hey Lynn, i was asking Oby actually i thought he was the one that made that comment about the salafi/wahabi saudi islam.

    If ure girl was following ‘ book by the letter ‘ don’t you think she would be giving you and your husband the up most respect as it says in the Quran?
    Its great that u research ure daughters religion, im sure as a parent u wanna know what she is gettin herself into.
    Although i don’t see how her being Muslim has become the cause of her acting out towards you guys or hiding things, maybe i misunderstood what u were getting at? It should really be the opposite, God willing she finds peace in herself within her religion and realises the immense importance of mothers and family in general.

  244. Yes, Oby was the one that made that comment. Sorry for answering for her but I thought the question you had posed was kind of silly (and I also know, from previous posts here, that she DOES know what it means)

    ‘If ure girl was following ‘ book by the letter ‘ don’t you think she would be giving you and your husband the up most respect as it says in the Quran?’

    But the thing is, I read the book myself and followed along with what she was reading on the internet (checking the history) and I can understand COMPLETELY why she might have gotten confused as it said, heaven is at the feet of your mother but then she was told to disobey and don’t forget ‘slay the infidel’ (that’s me ;-) ) And the web postings told her to HIIDE the fact that she was a Muslim until she got completely indoctrinated. Oh, how could I have forgotten her favorite website IslamQ&A.com?? http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/136360

    Oh, she does realize the importance of mothers but she realizes MORE the importance of staying away from fitna which comes from mixing with non-Muslims.

  245. I really don’t know how you could expect a non-Muslim to believe it. Or are you attempting to convert people or something?
    ——————————————————————————————————

    @LYnn

    Lynn u are kidding or wat? No, I am not attemting to convert. Please dont misundertand.

    I find one of the biggest “problems” with Muslims I have met on the blogs is that they get very offended if someone doesn’t believe in Islam. WHY?
    ——————————————————————-
    @Oby,

    Not at all, Muslims are not offended when some1 doest belive in Islam. If I (say for example) am offended, I will not do freindship with RELIGIOUS non-Muslims, I will not work with them, I will not talk to them. Simply, His way, my way as long as he doesnt harm me.
    But, if he misinterpret Islamic things and questions me or do such things in front of me, I will be there surely to tell what is right and what is wrong and what I, as a Muslim believes, in a peaceful way. Note that I have more non-Muslim friends than Muslim freinds. AND I M SURE AND I BELIEVE THAT A VERY RELGIOUS NON-MUSLIMS ARE REALLY GOOD HUMAN BEING AND THEY DO NOT HATE MUSLIMS TOO OR THEY DO NOT ATTACK ISLAM/MUSLIMS. Very often religous attacks come from people of a particular faith who has little knowledge of his own faith and its good teachings.

    My attemt is to show to those so called, learned people abt Islam but often end up with jumping up and down while spreading negative propaganda abt islam, who endup with misinterpretation abt Islam, who ends up in making judgment based on one human made NEGATIVE internet link or incident.

    I jsut want to show that their understanding abt islam, Muhammad PBUH and Quran is not what it should be understood.
    A person needs logical analysis and thinking to undertand a book from God(if not from who?) consisting of verses, which came from time to time to deal with the issue/problem of that time should not be taken WITHOUT that same context and condition, situation of that time. So, half knowledge is very dangerous.

    A person who can spend maximum amount of his time in searching violent verses from Quran to show that Islam is evil, what is the harm if he also search the source of Quran (from which he quotes verses to suits his needs)?

    Surely, who wrote such big book, for what benefit writer took pain to write such things, how can an illterate Muhammad PBUH be given credit of writing such big book that 1.5 billion people believe are all questionable. IF HE HAS NO INTEREST/TRUST IN THAT BOOK OR DOESNT LIKE TO ANALYSE IT OR ITS SOURCE, THEN HE SHOULD NOT HAVE INTEREST IN THE VERSES WRAPPED IN THAT SAME UNINTERESTED BOOK.

    Am I not making any sense?

    And every reader of any comic or literature or nobel doesnt need that he has to TRUST/BELIEVE in that stuff he reads. Thus, without belief/trust, one can analyse the source of Quran.

  246. @Lynn,

    I feel really sorry to hear ur story. I sincerely hope that u get smile and peace in ur family. May be she went crazy for xyz reason, but surprisingly what her husband is doing? He has no idea how to convince his wife? Why he doesnt try to bring peace in ur family?

    Or is it that if he is also under mental trauma/pressure from his family for marrying an American gal?

    Sometimes, what we speak or do doesnt mean what we really think in heart. I am sure she might be having some space and love for u in her heart.

    PS: I dont know in details what really happend to ur daughter and why she took such inhuman steps. Hope you will share some day.

  247. Here i was thinking Bukhari was the beginning and end when it came to hadith??? Whatever….it still does not matter to me in the least what you believe about me….Im quite sure I shall still get a good nights sleep despite your belittling my intelligence. Have a good day.
    —————————————————————–

    @Coolred38

    I think u get me wrong. I was not trying to belittle ur intelligence. I am sure u might be knowing much more than me in many things. I would have asked for reliable proof from any Muslim imam if he had said same thing. I am not giving any lecture too, I was just saying how EVERY Hadith should not be accepted without checking its authenticity.

    There are many Hadiths like Sahi Muslim, Abu Dawood, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi etc. And in between, I didnt find any such thing in Bukhari Hadith. Hope, u dnt misundertand me now.

  248. Wendy, on June 20, 2011 at 3:50 am said:

    @ azad
    I do know the individual Muslims do good things. I am married into a Muslim family. I would like to hear stories of Muslim groups standing up and protesting violence such as the murders of innocent peoples after the Koran burning in the USA. I want to hear those kinds of stories. When I don’t see them, hear them, read them (in mosque papers) then I must think they are condoned by the many.
    I want to hear these stories so I can assure others that they need not fear Islam but alas, I can’t do that and it’s rather sad don’t you think?

    =========================================================================

    @Wendy,

    Well, as I said before media hardly shows good things about Islam. What common people hear is only bad and violent things abt Islam/Muslims based on portrayal on one negative incident or mosque run by fanatic.

    What u want is what “Muslim Groups” or collective foundation like “Mosque” does?I can not show all as its too much but let me show some instances where Muslims worked for peace, humanity, condemened killing innocents.

    First kindly read folloing link shared by Rosemary (thanks for sharing):

    ——————————————————————————–
    I’m a Mooz-lum. I am also a human being like you.
    I have all the qualities of a human being: I love, I hate, I do good, I do bad, I want to achieve something in life like you.
    Still I am different from u??

    Read on…something you will cherish

    http://muslimmatters.org/2011/06/14/im-a-mooz-lum/

  249. Sharing some:

    1) U see one Masjid from where u dnt see any good news. Here is the news of 69 Mosques which worked for humanity:

    Mosques starting donation drive for Japan relief efforts:

    http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_645824.html

    Religious groups and firms raise funds for Japan quake victims

    http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1117371/1/.html

  250. 2)Muslim groups Protest against Muslim painter’s depiction of Hindu Gods in Obsene way:

    http://www.hindu.com/2007/07/06/stories/2007070654480300.htm

    and

    http://www.hindu.com/2007/09/21/stories/2007092154570400.htm

    PS: Depiction of Hindu Gods in naked is not new thing. U will find even in Temples.

  251. 3) Muslim groups and biggest Islamic Madrassa do seminars, public meetings, rallies and press conferences against terrorism:

    http://twocircles.net/2008apr12/indian_muslims_against_terrorism.html

    and

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7262283.stm

  252. 4) Condemned Osama Bin Laden by the “Islamic Commission of Spain”

    http://www.webislam.com/?idn=537

  253. 5)Mumbai attacks: “Muslim groups” rush to hospitals offering help:

    http://twocircles.net/2008nov29/mumbai_attacks_muslim_groups_rush_hospitals_offering_help.html

  254. 7) Muslim organisation inviting non-Muslims in large numbers to its Iftaar (fast-breaking ) :

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2008-09-21/bangalore/27924011_1_iftaar-muslims-harmony

  255. 9) Millions of Indian Muslims Protest Terrorism, Surrender Holiday Spirit: Media Silent

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0bb_1232128771

  256. 10) Muslims refuse Muslim burial for Mumbai terrorists :

    http://www.inquisitr.com/10416/indian-muslims-refuse-muslim-burial-for-mumbai-terrorists/

  257. 11) Muslims protest against Mumbai attacks and burn Pakistan flag:

    http://ishare.rediff.com/video/news-politics/indian-muslims-protest-against-mumbai-attacks-and-burn-pakistan-flag/522203

    If u still want to know more about “Muslim Groups” or “Mosques” Stand for peace and against plz let me know.

    Azad Ali Shah, you have been warned before. This is the last time. Keep to the blog rules, don’t write in capitals. Stop paste-copying and don’t be a blog hog.
    All the last comments are by you.
    Keep your comments terse and original to you. If you feel the need to post 10 links do so in one comment and prepare that such a comment has to be moderated.
    If you cross the blog rules one more time your comments will be edited and you will be put in permanent moderation.
    Moderator

  258. ‘Or is it that if he is also under mental trauma/pressure from his family for marrying an American gal?’

    HA! I doubt it since it is his intention to get his citizenship and bring them here as well. As a matter of fact it was his mother’s friend that arranged the marriage. And guess what she said when I found out and I called her and asked her what the hell she was thinking? She said that ‘American girls have boyfriends so…’ or something to that effect. I don’t remember a whole lot after that but I know it was loud and she was very lucky that it was over the phone instead of in person.

    ‘No, I am not attemting to convert. Please dont misundertand’

    Then what is the purpose in trying to prove that the Quran is from God? We all KNOW that a believing Muslim believes that it is from God.

    ‘My attemt is to show to those so called, learned people abt Islam but often end up with jumping up and down while spreading negative propaganda abt islam, who endup with misinterpretation abt Islam, who ends up in making judgment based on one human made NEGATIVE internet link or incident.
    I jsut want to show that their understanding abt islam, Muhammad PBUH and Quran is not what it should be understood.’

    The problem is not non-Muslims that misinterpret, the problem is the MUSLIMS that ‘misinterpret’ and act accordingly. MY point is that a book that is declared as simple and easy and for all times and all places should not be so easily misinterpreted.

    ‘AND I M SURE AND I BELIEVE THAT A VERY RELGIOUS NON-MUSLIMS ARE REALLY GOOD HUMAN BEING AND THEY DO NOT HATE MUSLIMS TOO OR THEY DO NOT ATTACK ISLAM/MUSLIMS’

    I am not religious at ALL. Do you think that I could be a good person? I don’t hate or attack Muslims. I just don’t believe that your Holy Book is from God and I think that its easily misinterpreted words are even a danger to the world.

  259. Hey Lynn: I don’t think anyone’s questions are silly. Questions lead to discussion that lead to thinking and pondering and possibly answers..that’s what i think anyway., i was asking because i have known many people to take those words and use them without understanding the meanings such as calling some Muslims “wahabis” when in fact there is no such thing as a Wahabi.

    I have also read the Quran and i did not come to those opposing conclusions. A mother is to be respected to the highest degree even if she is not a Muslim. Unless your mum is telling you to believe Jesus is God or something like that and even then you have to be patient and kind but reject what she is saying within your heart and remind her of your beliefs that may be different to hers.

    Your situation could have easily been me and my mother, and im sorry that it had to get to the point were there was hiding and lying and all sorts of things involved. This is not the Islam that i know. To me it seems like even though your girl was head strong growing up like you said in others words i think she has fallen into the trap (as many women do) of getting so caught up with this man that she will do things out of character to please him and go to unbelievable lengths where reasoning and 2nd questioning fly out the window. Im sorry to be analysing your situation i just don’t think that a belief system that i have seen have such a positive effect on my life and so many others lives could have the complete opposite in your case just because she has chosen to become a Muslim.
    We can only hope that things get better from now on InshAllah.

  260. I understand what you are saying Bella Vita but she started at 12 yrs old and as advised (as I showed with the link) kept it to herself rather than discuss it with her parents and never even met (was set up with) this husband of hers until she was 18 and married him a couple weeks later. She was never involved with any men before then so there goes that theory, eh?

  261. ‘when in fact there is no such thing as a Wahabi’

    Yes, we went over that on another post and it was mainly the Salafi/Wahabi that had an issue with that term ;-)

  262. azad…

    “Well, as I said before media hardly shows good things about Islam.”

    I generally hate using the argument “others do it too” to defend the wrongs that the west does…but I can’t leave this particular point alone.

    You are mistaken in your characterization of the west’s not showing good things about Islam. The western media to my knowledge has not come out on the news and said Islam is bad or evil or in anyway said that “muslims” in the general sense and population are bad or evil. That is a very mistaken belief that Muslims have who do not live here. I have never seen any news program, any personal friend that I know, any newspaper (mainstream) say any such thing ever about Muslims or Islam. In fact, I think the news media is very PC about Islam in general and I think if they did say things such as I mentioned many Americans would be upset about it and feel that it is a slander against muslims. What the media DOES do is highlight all the terroristic activities that Muslim extremists undertake. And boy are there a LOT of them. A constant stream of them so much so that it is unusual to go a week without some news about someone either killing other muslims or plotting something against the west. The West did not make these stories up…they are not lies. They actually happen. The West does report on them and there are so many that the nonmuslim world has gotten the impression that there is something seriously wrong with Muslims and Islam..or at the minimum people are wondering about it and seeing it in an unflattering light.

    My point is this: It is not the nonmuslims or west who are damaging Islam. Muslims THEMSELVES have messed it up pretty badly… from terrorism to lack of human rights in Muslim majority countries… to the poor treatment of women…to many other negatives that nonmuslims see. The West, if it has done anything wrong, has reported on those things and highlighted the bad issues. So naturally people get a bad view of Islam since islam is so closely tied with these countries.

    My question to you is why are you upset by that? Why do you blame the West for the bad behavior of Muslims? Should we ignore it? Pretend it isn’t happening? Not report on it? Why not fix your societies instead of being angry with the West for reporting that? You might have an argument and say that the West should be more balanced in it’s reporting.

    So here is the second part of my question…

    How much do islamic countries report good things about the West? Do they regularly report how wonderful the infidel is ( I am not talking about you personally who has many nonmuslim friends and therefore must not live in a Muslim majority country.) How Muslims should embrace them and get to know them? OR is it a fairly steady stream of negative about the West trying to destroy Islam through their imperialism and wars? (which btw any American will tell you that ANY war America was involved in was NOT a religiously motivated war…either to destroy another faith or gain ground for our own. Americans are not obsessed with religion and don’t have that mindset.)

    Do the news programs and the newspapers that dominate the Islamic world, specifically the Middle East, talk about all the good things that America does (as you know NO ONE is all bad) or do they focus on the negative? I’m guessing that it is primarily the negative and therefore feeds antiamerican sentiment. So what is the difference?

    If regular normal citizen nonmuslims (and I don’t mean military as the general population of any country doesn’t have much control over their countries military decisions) were regularly blowing themselves up both in the west and also repeatedly found to be plotting to harm the islamic world would you expect Muslims to have a good view of them?

    One of the things Muslims don’t understand: is what makes them be viewed with both fear and negativity is that the violence is NOT committed by a military force. That is a known entity. The violence is coming from normal citizens…someone who could be your neighbor, or classmate or working next to you at your job. They are normal (or supposedly normal) people who commit themselves to the violence both abroad and in the West and always in the name of Islam…so what idea do you expect people to get?

    It isn’t nonmuslims responsibility to learn about Islam and “understand” Islam. It is nice if some do but the majority won’t..It is MUSLIMS responsibility to get hold of the crazy lunatics in their fold and make changes from within so that people don’t go around trying to kill other Muslims/nonmuslims. Muslims need to question
    why people are doing such things in the name of Allah. What is broken in their faith that so much of it happens. What has changed that 40 years ago this was not a problem? In other words don’t shoot the messenger for reporting on these issues (ie: media). Instead look within to find out why Islamic practice has changed so much in 40 years to cause such violence to be perpetrated that in turn gives the West the stories it reports that cause nonmuslims to wonder what the heck is wrong with Islam/muslims.

  263. Thanks Lynn…

    I do indeed know what it is and you took the words out of my mouth…I was going to say that it is a salafi who would have a problem with the term wahabbi.

    Bella Vita…

    If you would like a link to Wahabbi/Saudi Islam and how in many cases it preaches intolerance and hate let me know. I have a link for a 65 page study that was done in the mosques in the USA showing again and again how it’s ideology has permeated the Mosque culture and has caused a change for the worse. At a minimum it warns Muslims against the “other”. In some cases at it’s worst it calls nonmuslims some pretty vile and hateful stuff and is completely intolerant…far from the tolerant peaceful islam you know.

  264. @Lynn: “Yes, we went over that on another post and it was mainly the Salafi/Wahabi that had an issue with that term”
    (never read that post)…but who are the salafi and wahabi ‘people’ that your talking about?
    @Oby: ‘I was going to say that it is a salafi who would have a problem with the term wahabbi’
    So maybe i shouldn’t question your knowledge on those terms in fear of being labelled a Salafi?? I’m sure i’ll be able to handle it and ask you for the link please to that site you were talking about which sounded really interesting. Thanks

  265. Actually, it is kind of rude to question people on a term that they use as if they go around using words that they don’t understand the meaning of. No? It would have been more polite to have just said ‘there is no such thing as Wahabi’ or said your piece about how you feel about the word. THAT’S what I meant. ‘Asking’ the way you did does not contribute to meaningful conversation. See what I mean?

  266. @Azad – ‘I WELCOME ANY1 TO REFUTE MY REPLY ON ORIGIN OF QURAN. ANY1 ONE CAN COME UP AND CLAIM THAT QURAN IS NOT FROM GOD’

    Azad, thanks for your extensive reply in response to my assertion that Mohammed wrote the Koran, with heavy borrowings from bible and torah/talmud. I am still unclear as to your obsession (few others have pointed it out also) about your repetive question “who wrote the koran. Can you briefly explain why?

    Here’s a link to an article which I believe is an excellent, well balanced and thought-provoking summation to: Did Muhammad Write The Koran?

    http://www.hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/koran7.html

    Couple of excerpts from the article ….

    From thousands of years before Muhammad to long after Muhammad, most people were not literate and could not read or write. Yet these same people managed to regularly communicate with each other, often from hundreds to thousands of miles apart. You see, there were a group of professionals who were considered to be as professional as our CPA’s, attorneys, and doctors called scribes. These were well know professionals who made their living being able to read and write and doing so for others for a fee. As a matter of fact, we still have such professionals today called secretaries.

    It is also common sense that since Muhammad confesses, in the Koran, to have been a bandit raiding caravans and pillaging cities and villages regularly taking slaves, he would have captured many such scribes and would have had his choice of scribes to use for writing the Koran. Therefore, it is only common sense that Muhammad would have written the Koran himself by dictating it to a scribe instead of leaving a bunch of notes he couldn’t have written or performing some miracle he denounced himself.

  267. Hi Bella Vita….

    Here is the article…I made a mistake however. It is not 65 pages, but 89! Not sure why I said 65…must be another thing I read that stuck in my head. Anyway it obviously will take a long time to read. The beginning explains how they conducted the study etc…

    http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/special_report/45.pdf

  268. Oby, I haven’t finished reading it yet but I had to say that I was happy to read this:

    We also wish to acknowledge the many Muslims who have requested our help in exposing Saudi extremism in the hope of freeing their communities from ideological strangulation; they have done so in the firm belief that public awareness of this problem will prompt the moderate majority of American Muslims to take steps to remedy it.

    It is good to know that there are some that are trying to stop it.

  269. Muslims round the world use the term Wahabi to describe the austere, patriarchal, Hanbuli based intolerant version of Islam propagated from Saudi Arabia and know for being particularly effective in breeding extremism and terrorists. This is because we disagree with their views and want to be distinguished from them. The Salafi movement has similar beliefs and the two have sort of merged in terms of public perception- even by Muslims world wide. Generally a Salafi is more likely to admit to the term- because they think is sounds superior- though most non-Salafi’s don’t think so. Wahabi’s just think their being “regular” Muslims- and so reject the term, but they’re not. Unfortunately with the petro-dollars to fund mosques and print literature world-wide, Wahabism spread and many Wahabis DON”T know what they are and think they are “just regular Muslims”.

  270. Dear Moderator,

    I am so sorry that I didnt realise that to wirte with capital lettesr is not allowed.
    Thats my mistake.

    And based on the question, which requires me to show something with facts, I need to show certain links. I cant use my own words in place of these links which shows facts.

    Sorry, due to nature of the question and answers I have to put certain links in my next post.

    I will try to maintain the rules of the forum.

    Thanks.

    Warm Rgds,
    Azad

  271. You are mistaken in your characterization of the west’s not showing good things about Islam. The western media to my knowledge has not come out on the news and said Islam is bad or evil or in anyway said that “muslims” in the general sense and population are bad or evil. That is a very mistaken belief that Muslims have who do not live here.
    =============================================
    @Oby,

    I agreed, condemned and still agree that there are people who happend to be Muslims, who murder, do crime, kill innocents. But, these are all human acts. U will find every good example of non-Muslims in Muslims also. And every bad example of Muslims in non-Muslims also. It doesnt mean that I am justifying a bad/wrong thing with other wrong/bad thing.

    But, I dont agree what u say that media is not biased.

    “Muslims” are always Fundamentalist, Extremist, rapists, criminals and Terrorist not a normal criminal or rapist. These crminals always belongs to some religion or faith. But the “faith” is mentioned only when he is Muslim.
    Kindly have a look with proof and let me know what u think and if I am hyper sensitive:

    1) Killing own children and wife
    when its muslims:

    and when NON Muslim do:

    2) Incest Crimes
    when its muslim:

    when non-muslim do:

    3)What about Terrorism….following are Muslims
    when muslim do:

    when Non-Muslims do:

    Why media needs to add “Muslim/Islam” only when the killer/rapist/terrorist is Muslim? Why is it working so hard to create terror in the minds of common non-Muslims?

  272. Yes Lynn…

    I agree and was especially pleased to read that. It gave me hope that there is some common sense left in all this craziness. One thing about the Saudi Islam that always bothered me is that it was a danger not only to potential relations between Muslims and nonmuslims, but also to relations between Muslims themselves. It was a poison to those that came here wanting a better life, wanting to live in a moderate, peaceful quiet way and blend in like everyone else that comes here and mix with the nonmuslim majority. This wahabbism that has taken hold is in direct conflict to that objective to the detriment of both muslims and non.

  273. @Harry,

    How u expect that flawed writing u showed is balanced one?

    i) I already explained with proof that first Arabic translation of what is known as the “Old Testament” was not produced until some two hundred (200) years after Muhammad’s (PBUH) death and the first Arabic translation of the “New Testament” did not appear until one thousand years after his death. Same is the case with Tourat.

    Then how u expect that Illiterate Muhammad kept secretary to copy from Bible to write Quran?Dont say that Muhammad exported a secretary who knew Hebrew.

    ii) Also, Had Quran been copied from other source, would this have not been easy to prove during Muhammad’s lifetime by his enemies who were eager to discredit him? And it was not possible for large number of people to convert to Islam on this same “falsehood”.

  274. “Why media needs to add “Muslim/Islam” only when the killer/rapist/terrorist is Muslim?”

    Wow! Over two dozen links? As is true with many muslims, when all fails, pile it on with a lot of non-sensical gibberish. Or compare koran with bible or torah, arguing “mine is smaller” than “yours”. Or play the “muslim victimhood” card big time. :)-

  275. Azad…

    You have actually misunderstood my comment. I DO think that the media is biased in it’s reporting. And I do think that there should be more positive things shown about Muslims. It is very regrettable that more positive isn’t out there.

    What I was trying to say is that it is a two way street. How much positive is shown about America in Islamic countries? As I said I would bet my life it is a pretty steady stream of negative that the people see which feeds their anti American feelings.

    But there is a fair amount to report on…wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. There is no denying that we are there and there is a lot of fighting going on. The Arabs didn’t make it up…the story of us being there is true…so the news stations milk it for all it is worth. It doesn’t bother me that they report on it. Of course they will. I would be brain dead to expect that they won’t. It pisses me off,however, that they claim the war is to destroy Islam which is a bunch of B.S. They make the people there think that we want to get rid of their faith and that scares the hell out of them…that part bothers me because it isn’t true in any way, shape or form. I can promise you Americans have no interest in wiping out Islam in the Islamic world…they are far more concerned with the terrorists that seem to be looking in our direction…they are worried about their own backsides, not killing off your religion.

    So I was asking you, yes I agree with you more positive should be shown, BUT why do Muslims expect from us (unbiased reporting) what they themselves are not giving which is an unbiased view of what is happening?

    The American media chooses to report the negative because it sells. But so does the Middle East/muslim news venues. How can you (in general) be angry about something that you (in general) are doing to those you are complaining about? Don’t you think that is a bit hypocritical?

  276. Oby: “The American media chooses to report the negative because it sells. But so does the Middle East/muslim news venues.”

    Oby,

    I agree with you fully. As the old adage goes, “if it bleeds, it leads” in the media. That is true everywhere in the world where you have free press.

    Sometimes our media broadcasts and prints “stuff” which makes my blood boil, but it is their right to do so. Remember Pentagon Papers in the ’70s. Or just recently the WikiLeaks, which potentially damaged US foreign policy and relations with other governments. But that’s the price of freedom that we enjoy and we gladly accept it!

  277. Azad, What happened when Mohammed got his first ‘revelations’? Is it true that he was afraid? Who was the Christian that his wife took him to see to calm him? Was it her uncle? Yet you think that there was no opportunity for Mohammed to have heard anything about the scriptures from anyone? Also, I’m pretty sure that his biography tells about all the different people that he came across on the caravan trade route which always saw people on their way to their pilgrimage to Mecca (when everyone was still allowed to worship their God/s there).
    Yes, Mohammed WAS illiterate, so what’s your point? The common means for things to be passed down at that time was orally. Poetry was a very popular means of telling stories during those days and Mohammed was a gifted poet who was accustomed to going off and spending time in his cave and making poetry, isn’t that right? But he didn’t write anything down and I understand that the Quran was not even compiled into a ‘book’ until well after his death. Is that the same way that you understand it?

  278. @Lynn: i don’t see anything rude with asking someone who uses certain terminology about something particular if they know what those words mean?… i did not ask it in a sarcastic way but genuinely.
    I don’t see the problem.
    In my experience when people use those words, they do not know the meaning of it, yet cause more misunderstanding and tension by naming muslims Wahabi/salafi..in their mind anything that dosn’t fit into their criteria should be this or this (when they don’t even know what “this” is).
    So i just wanted to ask her even though i still don’t really have an answer. Maybe the way i say things is easily misunderstood..thats why u thought i was being rude, and maybe i misunderstand the way you express yourself also? (maybe its something i need to work on)
    But i appreciate Oby sending me the link it looks like an interesting read.
    but i’ll take ure advice and just say for all times sake..
    There is no such thing as a wahabi lol

  279. Bella vita…

    I didn’t mean to be unclear or dodge the question…sorry. sandy pretty much summed up what I see as a wahabbi. Now maybe in your world that is a slang word or doesn’t exist TECHNICALLY but everyone else views them as severe, austere,puritanical,intolerant form of Islam. Perhaps that would describe a salalfist as well. But as sandy pointed out even wahabbis think they are “regular” Muslims whenclearly the rest of the world including other Muslims don’t think so.

  280. ‘i did not ask it in a sarcastic way but genuinely’

    Do you even know what that word ‘genuinely’ means?

    Yes, I know that you seem to be literate but there ARE people use that word all the time and don’t understand the meaning of it.

    Ok, that WAS sarcasm but, seriously, you don’t see anything rude or offensive in asking a person if they understand a word that they used?

  281. @Lynn: I got the point your when you asked me the same question, thanks for pointing it out.
    @Oby: Lynn pointed out that its not so nice asking one if u know the meaning to a word u wrote , it was a rude and i apologise oby.
    I still do not agree to the use of those words as it categorises muslims into different from one another.
    I know we Muslims are very different in many things, but even the term Wahabi and Salafi are 2 different things within themselves anyway so to place them together dose not add up.
    I don’t think we should judge unless the evidence is clear on a particular thing in Islam that is more then obviously wrong.
    Whats the criteria/signs of a Muslims character/behaviours that we have the rite to call someone a Wahabi/salafi? As its been descrivbed already..these 2 words in the west and elsewhere are not positive at all so there must be some warning signs to expose these wahabi/salafi?
    I just don’t see how its constructive/helpful in any way to boost dialogue within the muslim/non-muslim community when we have people (muslim & non-muslim) calling each other names. What about asking them about their beliefs and why and what proof they have to back that up? Why resort to name calling?
    Just my view thanks

  282. ‘I still do not agree to the use of those words as it categorises muslims into different from one another.’

    And I am of the opinion that it IS good to label them so that the regular ‘moderate’ Muslim doesn’t have to carry the baggage that a believer of the version of Islam promoted by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab brings. How do you feel about the words ‘Sufi’ or ‘Shiite’?

  283. The American media chooses to report the negative because it sells. But so does the Middle East/muslim news venues. How can you (in general) be angry about something that you (in general) are doing to those you are complaining about? Don’t you think that is a bit hypocritical?
    ———————————————————–

    @Oby,

    At least now u accept that Media defame Islam/Muslim by tagging faith with crime, murder, or any other dirty thing?
    If its all about selling bad news with spices, they also can mention “Christian” in every bad crime done by Christian just like they add “Muslim/Islam”? But surely they publish the bad news without religious tag if the criminal is not Muslim, why so?

    And I dnt know who can answer ur question – “why Muslim do crime? Why they give chance to western media to write bad things abt Mulsim/Islam?” Its like asking why Christian do crime? Why cant we change this question like this – why human being do crime?

    If every human being dont do crime, there will be no police/cops in every country including christian countries.

    I, sincerely speaking havent seen any news which abuse America as a whole. It doesnt mean that I am denying the existence of such news.

    But there is big difference between writing bad things abt a country “Saudi or America” and writing bad abt a “religion” which covers every single person of that faith living in whole world.

  284. Harry Guggen, on June 24, 2011 at 1:10 am said:

    “Why media needs to add “Muslim/Islam” only when the killer/rapist/terrorist is Muslim?”

    Wow! Over two dozen links? As is true with many muslims, when all fails, pile it on with a lot of non-sensical gibberish. Or compare koran with bible or torah, arguing “mine is smaller” than “yours”. Or play the “muslim victimhood” card big time. :)
    ————————————————————–

    A perfect example of “Living in Denial” and “Unable to accept the truth” even after seeing facts.

  285. .It is MUSLIMS responsibility to get hold of the crazy lunatics in their fold and make changes from within so that people don’t go around trying to kill other Muslims/nonmuslims. Muslims need to question
    why people are doing such things in the name of Allah. What is broken in their faith that so much of it happens. What has changed that 40 years ago this was not a problem? In other words don’t shoot the messenger for reporting on these issues (ie: media). Instead look within to find out why Islamic practice has changed so much in 40 years to cause such violence to be perpetrated that in turn gives the West the stories it reports that cause nonmuslims to wonder what the heck is wrong with Islam/muslims.
    —————————————————————-

    @Oby, I missed this part.

    Its not since 40 years but since Gulf War – 1, since 20 years when innocent men,women,children were bombed from sky, their houses were destroyed by missile. THis world had changed as a whole since that time. When I say this Im a in no way supporting any kind of killing of innocents subsequently. But, all sections need to introspect and accept how it was changed.

    And u need to see the video I posted, where Hilary clinton accepted how US created terrorists and trained them. Why we cant discuss the role of US in creating terrorists?

    All have a role to play to make this world peaceful, its not only Muslim’s work when the problem creator involves all party and faiths. Every single human being needs contribution and effort.

  286. ‘I, sincerely speaking havent seen any news which abuse America as a whole. It doesnt mean that I am denying the existence of such news’

    And I, sincerely speaking, have not seen any news with abuse Islam or Muslims as a whole.

    I showed told you how recently a ‘Muslim sounding’ man killed a police officer and they never once mentioned his faith. Why not if they are looking to show bad things about Muslims? Because his faith has nothing to do with the crime. If he had shouted something about God or Islam or Iraq or jihad before he ran him down that would be a different story and his faith would have been mentioned. Get the difference?

  287. My point is this: It is not the nonmuslims or west who are damaging Islam. Muslims THEMSELVES have messed it up pretty badly… from terrorism to lack of human rights in Muslim majority countries… to the poor treatment of women…to many other negatives that nonmuslims see. The West, if it has done anything wrong, has reported on those things and highlighted the bad issues.
    ——————————————————————-

    @Oby,

    I agree that Muslims themselves play big role in damaging Islam.
    A few may be under the category – “terrorism to lack of human rights in Muslim majority countries… to the poor treatment of women…to many other negatives” but many others where maximum Muslims of the world lives like Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey, Tazakastan, Uzabekistan, Brunei, Morocco, Kazakhastan, Albania, Bosnia etc.

    Kindly note that only 18% of world’s Mulsim population live in Arab region and remaining 82% live in non-Arab world.
    As I said above, some from all sections are trying hard 24×7 to damage Islam. I listed in my previous post with proof – Muslim themsevles, media propaganda, fake Muslims, fake Islamic sites, fake Mulsim bomber etc. All have played enough roles.

  288. ‘Kindly note that only 18% of world’s Mulsim population live in Arab region and remaining 82% live in non-Arab world’

    But not all the ‘bad’ ones are from the Arab region, are they?

  289. Lynn…Just getting back and I was going to say exactly what you just said about mentioning faith.

    Azad…

    Again here is a misunderstanding Muslims have…

    In the vast majority of the news reports I have seen on
    American tv/newspapers about terrorists they never mention the persons faith. As I said the news is very politically correct about Islam and actually SAYING that it was a muslim (the mainstream news venues…not right wing ones). What generally gives it away is their name… almost always arabic sounding name…even those who convert, in an effort to become more muslim change their Christian sounding names to an Arabic sounding one. Not to mention that they are generally (though not always) from Muslim majority countries..ie: Jordanian national so there is very minimal chance that they will be anything other than Muslim. My point is, is that the news doesn’t have to say they are Muslim…it is fairly evident that they are Muslims.

    Again…it is unfortunate there is not more positive about Muslims out there, BUT that doesn’t mean that the news will stop reporting about the terrorism, just like the muslim news will not stop reporting about all the wrongs America does.

  290. azad…

    Here is a recent news story concerning a Muslim woman…read the entire article. EVEN THOUGH she mentions her actions were committed because of America the news article NEVER mentions her faith. That is common among the news. They don’t mention the faith of the person, but it is obvious that the woman is Muslim…from her country, her name and the fact that she is wearing a burka. Non muslims don’t wear burkas especially in their home country. Muslims want to be identifiable right? They want the world to know that they are Muslims right? Especially the women…

    Well due to the fact that they make an effort to be known as Muslims (most especially women) it is not necessary to even mention the religion… It is obvious they are Muslims.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-05-17-saudi-woman-hate-spitting_n.htm.

  291. “Non muslims don’t wear burkas especially in their home country.”

    That is, if they come from the west.

  292. @Lynn:
    ” it IS good to label them so that the regular ‘moderate’ Muslim doesn’t have to carry the baggage that a believer of the version of Islam promoted by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab brings”

    Muslims carry enough baggage that im sure another name added to them won’t be that big of deal so you don’t need to save the “moderates” (another made-up name) im sure they can look after themselves.

    There is not such thing as another “version” of Islam. It is what it is. Whether it fits into what everyone would like it to be is another story.

    What would that ‘version’ of Islam (promoted by al wahab) be in your opinion? and how does it compare to Islam?
    We need to ask those questions if we want to name call people Wahabis.

    In terms of Shiaat and Sufi name calling i don’t agree again. They are muslim unless they go around publicly refuting Allah as 1 God then they themselves have rejected Islam.

  293. It’s not about ‘name calling’ it is about classification. There are Baptists and Lutherans and Quakers and Amish and Presbyterians, Greek Orthodox and Catholics just name a few of the different ‘labels’ that Christians go by. They each believe in the same ‘basics’ but there is something different about each of them and we know them by the name they go by. It isn’t ‘name calling’ though, is it?

  294. @Bella-Vita

    “There is not such thing as another “version” of Islam. It is what it is.”

    there are almost as many versions and understandings of islam as there are muslims. there are 5 pillars on which everyone agrees (i think), as for the rest – it’s free to interpretation. pls correct me if i am wrong. or maybe i should ask: what is islam then?

    thanks :-)

  295. As a Muslim,
    Absolutely there are versions of Islam. There is a reason world-wide that MUSLIMS started calling certain types of Muslims Wahabi. Because most of us DO NOT want to be associated with it. They don’t like it, but too bad. Many of the same basic puritan mindset don’t mind being called Salafi- many of them call themselves that. Salafi is the “saved sect”. So they don’t mind separating themselves- and designating themselves and the one true sect!

  296. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43558265/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/

    This why there is so much fear concerning Salafi/Wahabi Muslims…they threaten to cut the tongues off of anyone that dares mocks their religion. Why is religion so damn untouchable…why are raised with this belief that it should be respected even if IT doesnt show respect to others (women, nonwhatever it is etc)?

  297. @Sandy and Coolred38: Don’t u think by continuing to call people these names it cuts off all communication because of the negative connotations that some with these names. Does that help solve things or create more divisions and barriers?
    What are the tell tale signs of a salafi or wahabi? apart from if they say they are exactly that? Im just worried of being quick to name call, wouldn’t it be better to discuss why they do what they do or what their positions are on certain topics and have a healthy debate instead of pre-judge and possibly naming someone something and getting it wrong??

    Also the article that was provided was crazy..let see below what they consider to be salafists so we can see how accurate they are?
    Note: Anyone that wants to cut someone’s tongue out should be called CRAZY.

    “Salafists are distinguished by the way they dress. In many parts of Cairo, women wear the “niqab,” a veil which shows at most the eyes rather than the scarf that covers only the hair.”
    “The men grow their beards long and often shave off mustaches, a style said to imitate the Prophet Muhammad.”

    That is so wrong on so many levels. Great, so now any muslim man who wants to grow his beard should be called a salafist? If we go by their description a lot of people are going to be labelled that name wrongly.

    @Almost Muslimah: We can all agree that anyone can practise a different version of Islam, as we are all free to do what we like. However that does not mean that it rite or should be done. No one can just make up their own set of rules and call it another “version” of Islam. There are the main principles (5 pillars,6articles of faith +) that can never be altered as they are the basis of what Islam is. In changing the basics/foundations it ultimately changes Islam.

    There are rules for everything, driving,schooling,medicine,religion… so Islam also has rules. All Muslim’s will agree that the major points of Islam cannot be changed at all. That was my argument when saying there are no “versions” of Islam ..it is what it is.
    In terms of different schools of thoughts, different opinions on certain issues, i totally agree there is a huge area of grey where we can choose what we want.

  298. Forget the five pillars, the articles of faith. What defines a person as a Muslim is belief in the Quran as the word of god, and acceptance of Mohammad as A messenger and moral authority or example. That pretty much includes all groups and sects. There is only one version of islam under this definition.

    At that point, non-Muslims should have serious doubts about a Muslim’s character and morals.

  299. Azad

    Let me address this issue on a more personal basis. I would like to tell you how I feel about this. As you know, I don’t like Islam. I have, I believe, good reasons for this.

    Even so, let me try to explain the frustration I feel in situations / discussions like this.

    When one sits and talks to a Muslim about their religion, one usually hears arguments very much like those above. The Muslims is usually very nice and passionate about his/her religion, explaining dogma and usually deflecting criticism about Muslims and their actions in the same way you have above.

    So far, so good, as expected. I will ask about Mohammad and his role and the Muslim will give me the five minute version of his life and the hardships and wonderful things he did.

    Then the trouble starts. I will ask about certain verses in the Quran that are derogatory about non-Muslims. I will get the ‘out of context’ reply. Then I will ask about certain things your prophet did according to the hadith, and as authorized in the Quran. These are from the same sources that the Muslim had used minutes before.

    At that point the discussion goes to hell in a handbag. Never, not once, have I seen a Muslim condemn your prophet for things that are clearly unacceptable, particularly if done by infidels. The excuses role out one after another, or it is denial after denial.

    Azad, how do you, as a committed Muslim of good character (I have no reason to think otherwise), expect me to believe a Muslim is sincere and pretends goodwill to others when I see this blatant contradiction? I mean if something is obviously wrong, yet a Muslim will not only not denounce specific actions or words, but will obfuscate the issue so to ignore it, what am I to think?

    At that point, this attitude explains the whole “Muslim problem”, from the lack of freedom and human rights in Islamic societies to the troubles that Muslims create in the West.

    I hope you take this as a nice statement. I just want you to know how I feel about this and why it upsets me. Try to put yourself in a non-Muslim’s shoes and look at this from another viewpoint.

  300. @Bella Vita -I absolutely want division in the Ummah. I think no accommodation should be made for extremists. The number one attribute of these people being intolerant of everyone else- including other Muslims and doing things like pronouncing Takfir. No surprise this sort of view was the breeding ground for the terrorists and the intolerant tribal culture of places like Saudi Arabia.

  301. @Bella-Vita,

    I really think you do not know what you’re talking about here. Salafi’s are definitely distinguishable every where you go in the Arabic world. They do force women to wear a Niqab. Men usually wear distinguished clothes and shave their mustache. It is actually funny how Egyptian Salafi’s say they are not influenced by Saudi Arabia, when they go over board in emulating everything Saudi in their dress and behavior.

    Here are 2 images of Egyptian Immams, Can you tell which one is the Salafi:

    Salafi’s are the ones who are seeking to distinguish themselves. The core message of Salafi’s is to emulate the prophet and his followers. Every hadith holds a sacred message to them, whether it fits in today’s world or not. Example the shaving of the Mustache and growing a beard to huge proportions is based on a Hadith. It does not stop there, every aggressive Hadith is taken to as gospel, which should be implemented. It is an aggressive ideology of referring back to a life style of 1400 years ago.

    Salafi’s can be ignored and would have very limited appeal, with the exception of being financed by Saudi Petro Dollars. So of course Muslims should try to isolate their ideology and work hard to limit their influence.

    Your politically correct rant about having dialogue just does not work with groups that feel they have the authority from God to implement their rules. Look at Saudi and their impact on the society there for an example of why other Muslims should take Salafi’s as a serious danger to any society.

  302. ‘Don’t u think by continuing to call people these names it cuts off all communication because of the negative connotations that some with these names.’

    1. Stop calling it ‘name calling’ it is called ‘classification’.

    2.If they cut people off it is good. Do you think it is fair that people should be thinking horrible things about Muslims and Islam based on the beliefs and actions of these Wahabbis or Salafis?

  303. Belle-Vita: “What are the tell tale signs of a salafi or wahabi?”

    I am sharing part of my story with other that have suffered from salafi burnout.

    After being in Islam a short time, I was introduced into what was heavily marketed as the “pure and clear” way of ’salafiyyah’ in which all other Muslims must come to this way or be opposed at all costs. It was very appealing because what new Muslim wants anything but that? …. This was not the Islam that I had accepted and soon I began to realise that there were indeed deep problems in this “manhaj”.

    Read the Rest …..

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?174566-Salafi-Burnout

  304. I just wanted to check this thread to see if any response to my question(s). I think this issue – not exactly “fear of Muslims” but rather why non-Muslims dislike Islam – is very important.

    Sadly I see no effort from Muslims to change their ways. Muslims want others to halt any criticism and pretend that Muslims don’t believe, do and say the things they believe, do and say. That is why things not only do not change, but they will get worse. Muslims are incapable of introspection when it comes to Islam.

    I have left several observations here last month about Islamic doctrine but no response. I expected none.

  305. @MoQ: Ok its just my opinion whether im being politically correct or not. I still don’t think dividing each other is productive.
    Do u seriously think that u can recognise a salafi muslim by the way they dress? I have many girlfriends that wear the niqab and do not call themselevs Salafi.
    Almost all muslim men in my community have a beard…if you didn’t know many muslim men actually believe its wajib to have a beard.
    A lotta muslim men shave their mustache and grow out the beard..don’t see how that equates to being a salafi (in the negative sense ure talking about). Don’t judge a book by its cover.

    From my understanding according to the terminology..Salaf basically means righteous predecessors.. of who? The Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)..so bascially the way of the Salaf is following the sahaba (Companions) and the tabieen (followers) and then those that followed them (followers of the followers)..who ultimately were the best of Muslims.

    “Say (O Muhammad): ‘This is my way; I invite unto Allaah with sure knowledge, I and whosoever follows me with sure knowledge.” Yusoof 12:108

    Allah (swt) does not tell us to call ourselves by anything but Muslim.
    When we come to think of it whoever follows the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) also follows the salaf automatically. That does not mean it is the same “salafi” ideology that has been created and promoted today which i have had no personal experience with but sounds extreme and un-accepting and dividing and not inclusive of all muslims which Islam is not about.

  306. Quickly..i just realised..well then we should definatly separate ourselves from the created different meanings that are not correct.and make others aware of the true meanings of those so called sects…

  307. Guys, I could not come back due to my personal engagements, I will be back soon. In mean time u will be shocked to know that New OSAMA BIN LADEN born and see how fear for Muslims can be removed when Muslims keep breeding terrorists.

    The 10 DAY manhunt for a known terrorist ignored.
    The ten day manhunt against the terrorist ‘Osama Mohamed Hussien’ in America – you must have heard about it by now?
    He wants to take down the American government. He’s armed and dangerous. And he’s on the run…

    It is really nice to realize that there are still some people left in this world who are honest, peace-loving and are willing to call things fairly – no matter who does it. But many others propagate like this:

    A man is taking a walk in Central park in New York. Suddenly he sees a little girl being attacked by a pit bull dog . He runs over and starts fighting with the dog. He succeeds in killing the dog and saving the girl’s life. A policeman who was watching the scene walks over and says: “You are a hero, tomorrow you can read it in all the newspapers: “Brave New Yorker saves the life of little girl” The man says: – “But I am not a New Yorker!” “Oh ,then it will say in newspapers in the morning: ‘Brave American saves life of little girl'” – the policeman answers. “But I am not an American!” – says the man. “Oh, what are you then? ” The man says: – “I am a Saudi !” The next day the newspapers says: “Islamic extremist kills innocent American dog.

  308. People believe what they want to believe and hear what they want to hear. If something doesn’t fit within the set of rules they’ve decided to adopt as their own then that particular something MUST be wrong/crazy/naive/etc. Very few people are willing to accept the possibility that their beliefs may be wrong. It has most likely always been this way.

  309. Will it be called terrorist’s attack or gunman’s attack as usual??
    Is the term “Terrorism” reserved for a particular religion only?
    Anyway, keeping politics,propaganda and fanatism aside, its sad news that innocents suffer always.
    ——————————————————-

    The blond orthodox christian right – winger Norwegian, 32, arrested over ‘holiday island massacre’ and linked to Oslo car bomb blasts

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017709/Anders-Behring-Breivik-arrested-holiday-island-massacre-linked-Oslo-car-bomb-blasts.html#ixzz1Sw5IsJ2c

  310. Is it the time that we segregate animalism, terrorism and religion? Any1 can be terrorist, murderer irrespective of religion but a criminal get best advantage when he use religion and use some form of excuse to justify his animalistic acts

  311. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14262956

    Perhaps this article will make you finally SHUT UP with your damned whining about how ‘they only call Muslims extremists or terrorists’

    This guy is being called a Christian Extremist AND is being charged with terrorism. Can you now promise us that we won’t have to hear you complain anymore? BUT, let’s see if he quotes any scripture to justify his acts like the Muslim terrorists do.

  312. I even checked Fox News online and saw a story featuring the words “Christian” and “terrorism” in the same paragraph so …

    I’m curious how this Anders guy justifies his hatred and murder which is so against what Jesus exemplified by his life. I guess Anders missed that whole “love your enemies” and “overcome evil with good” bit. Then again, most of us do though we don’t go to intolerable extremes such as he did. So awful!

  313. BUT, let’s see if he quotes any scripture to justify his acts like the Muslim terrorists do.

    —————————————————————

    @Lynn,

    Most senseless statement, justification and propaganda. Did u guys live with those terrorists who use some scripture?
    HOw u know that they use scripture or is it just propaganda?

    Imagine 100 of world’s leading newspaper manipulate this blast news and one copy from other and take out some violent verses from Bible and justify it even though this man doesnt utter a single word from Bible? Imagine this heinous blast is mixed with Bible? At the end of the day, I havent met and talked to this man, I will read and trust what media says. Tell a lie 100 times by 1 million people, that lie will be considered true.

    And do u see “Christian terrorist” in the link u posted? Do u see any media in the world using “Christian”+”Terrorist” in this one of the most horrible terrorist attack in Europe? Why is this important term “Christian” missing from terrorist (unlike “Islamist” terrorist)?
    What happen to ur critical thinking madam?

    Meanwhile, in the world of reality, of 294 Terrorist attacks attempted or executed on European soil in 2009 as counted by the EU, a grand total of one — 1 out of 294 — was perpetrated by “Islamists.” Still why this “Islamic” and why not “Christian”+”Terrorist”? Who did 293 Terrorist attack?

    And u should not ask me to SHUT but ask to Thom Hartmann in the above link.

    And request u to tell me to SHUT UP after reading following piece of news.

    Excerpts from this detailed news:

    Terrorism is the most meaningless and non-sense word in English:

    Till the time real culprit was not known, There was ample reason for concern that terrorists might be responsible.

    In other words, now that we know the alleged perpetrator is not Muslim, we know — by definition — that Terrorists are not responsible; conversely, when we thought Muslims were responsible, that meant — also by definition — that it was an act of Terrorism. As Silverstein put it:

    How’s that again? Are the only terrorists in the world Muslim? If so, what do we call a right-wing nationalist capable of planting major bombs and mowing down scores of people for the sake of the greater glory of his cause? If even a liberal newspaper like the Times can’t call this guy a terrorist, what does that say about the mindset of the western world?

    What it says is what we’ve seen repeatedly: that Terrorism has no objective meaning and, at least in American political discourse, has come functionally to mean: violence committed by Muslims whom the West dislikes, no matter the cause or the target. Indeed, in many (though not all) media circles, discussion of the Oslo attack quickly morphed from this is Terrorism (when it was believed Muslims did it) to no, this isn’t Terrorism, just extremism (once it became likely that Muslims didn’t). As Maz Hussain — whose lengthy Twitter commentary on this event yesterday was superb and well worth reading — put it:

    “So if this is somehow not considered “terrorism”, are we admittiong that whether something is “terrorism” is solely a function of who did it?”

    That Terrorism means nothing more than violence committed by Muslims whom the West dislikes has been proven repeatedly. When an airplane was flown into an IRS building in Austin, Texas, it was immediately proclaimed to be Terrorism, until it was revealed that the attacker was a white, non-Muslim, American anti-tax advocate with a series of domestic political grievances. The U.S. and its allies can, by definition, never commit Terrorism even when it is beyond question that the purpose of their violence is to terrorize civilian populations into submission. Conversely, Muslims who attack purely military targets — even if the target is an invading army in their own countries — are, by definition, Terrorists. That is why, as NYU’s Remi Brulin has extensively documented, Terrorism is the most meaningless, and therefore the most manipulated, word in the English language. Yesterday provided yet another sterling example.

    One last question: if, as preliminary evidence suggests, it turns out that Breivik was “inspired” by the extremist hatemongering rantings of Geller, Pipes and friends, will their groups be deemed Terrorist organizations such that any involvement with them could constitute the criminal offense of material support to Terrorism? Will those extremist polemicists inspiring Terrorist violence receive the Anwar Awlaki treatment of being put on an assassination hit list without due process? Will tall, blond, Nordic-looking males now receive extra scrutiny at airports and other locales, and will those having any involvement with those right-wing, Muslim-hating groups be secretly placed on no-fly lists? Or are those oppressive, extremist, lawless measures — like the word Terrorism — also reserved exclusively for Muslims?

    http://www.salon.com/news/terrorism/index.html?story=%2Fopinion%2Fgreenwald%2F2011%2F07%2F23%2Fnyt

  314. I’m sorry Azad, I didn’t read anything you wrote after ‘…in other words, now that we know the alleged perpetrator is not Muslim, we know — by definition — that Terrorists are not responsible; conversely, when we thought Muslims were responsible, that meant — also by definition — that it was an act of Terrorism.’

    Because they ARE calling it terrorism. THAT is what he is being charged with and they ARE calling him a self defined far right-wing (extremist) Christian. I think that article has been revised since it was posted but you will find the same in many other news sources. Anyway, they say that he has things he wants to say so I guess we will get to hear what his concerns are and we won’t have to wonder and speculate. However, It seems that no matter how hard we try to find some terrorism that is not related to Muslims in some way it is just not to be. What I am reading now is that it IS about Muslims after all. Oy!

  315. However, It seems that no matter how hard we try to find some terrorism that is not related to Muslims in some way it is just not to be. What I am reading now is that it IS about Muslims after all. Oy!

    ——————————————————————

    No, its not all about Muslims but all about lies, hatred, propaganda, denial of truth, unability to accept the truth after all, which has been proved by EU report –

    “EU Report2010:Only 1/294 terrorist attack byMuslim”

    I dnt know why u dnt like to see the news I showed. As Muslims are considered lairs very often, I showed all with fact and evidence instead of mere verbal false propaganda and lies. I am surprised how the list of sincere, honest, non-Muslims media I have been showing is not good enough to prove that there is full of lies, hypocrisy, negative propaganda in this world. After all another fact is not shown as fact in world media as they usually do when the terrorist is found to be Muslim-

    ‘One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests’ – Norway bomber, firm BELIEVER and FOLLOWER of Bible and Christianity, a Muslim hater, Anders Behring Breivik

  316. ‘The morning statement issued by President Obama — “It’s a reminder that the entire international community holds a stake in preventing this kind of terror from occurring” and “we have to work cooperatively together both on intelligence and in terms of prevention of these kinds of horrible attacks” — appeared to assume, though (to its credit) did not overtly state, that the perpetrator was an international terrorist group.

    But now it turns out that the alleged perpetrator wasn’t from an international Muslim extremist group at all,’

    The problem that I see with that paragraph is that it is the WRITER not the speaker (Obama) that was thinking that he was talking about Muslims. Do you see, in the quote by him, anything that said Muslim? NO, but the last sentence of the writer put those words in his mouth by saying… ‘wasn’t from an international Muslim extremist group at all’

    Look again at that link that you give there. The second line shows the word ‘opinion’ do you understand the difference between ‘News’ and ‘Opinion Columns’?

    You didn’t give a link to that EU Report 2010 so I don’t know what it says.

  317. Well, here is something we all need to learn from Bangladeshi immigrant Rais Bhuiyan for love and peace in this world. He is a great person who try to save his racist attacker. He is the perfect example for us Muslims to follow.

    But, unfortunately his effort went in vain, system didn’t respect his positive thinking. The culprit could have been saved for better world.

  318. ‘He is the perfect example for us Muslims to follow’

    I agree. Unfortunately their religion tells them that the perfect example for them to follow is Mohammed. Too many Muslims ascribe to the belief in retaliation against their oppressors and sharia supports them with it’s prescribed death penalty for even crimes that hurt no one (such as being gay). Does ‘Death to America!!!’ sound familiar to you? What is the predominant religion of the people that you see saying something like that?

  319. Unfortunately their religion tells them that the perfect example for them to follow is Mohammed. Too many Muslims ascribe to the belief in retaliation against their oppressors
    ————————————————————-

    @Lynn,

    Do u agree media hypocrisy also?

    He is following perfect example of Muhammad PBUH. If not who is following him? He is talking of Islam and Quran – which is in sync with Muhammad’s message.

    Sorry to say this but u are one of those victims of hate propaganda, who doesnt try to see the positive sides but happy to accept negatives only.

    Considering this topic is not the right place, I have written brief history of Muahmmad PBUH in the topic “A Perspective on Islam”. kindly read it with neutral mind after removing any pre-judgements.

  320. No Azad, I am sorry to say THIS. I am a victim of liberalism and political correctness. My family is torn up now because I TRUSTED Muslims to have respect for the sanctity of my family and LOOK where THAT got me!! Had I done my research and looked passed my preconceived beliefs that religious people all follow the Golden Rule of ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you’. But most especially it makes me crazy to think that my police officer brother offered to go get my daughter and bring her home from the Muslims that she ran to and I told him NO, they are pious Muslims, they will convince her that she is supposed to respect her family and especially her mother. BOY was I wrong, eh? So please, do NOT insult my beliefs by calling them prejudiced when they are based on FACTS that I have learned by reading the Quran and watching Muslims live out their religion. If you have a problem with what I think of Islam or Muslims then please call Sheikh Ali and discuss it with him. http://www.mcws.org/imam

  321. ‘Do u agree media hypocrisy also?’

    I don’t understand what you mean.Could you perhaps rephrase that question?

  322. I don’t understand what you mean.Could you perhaps rephrase that question?
    ———————————–

    @Lynn,

    “Media hypocrisy” :

    For the same blast-
    – it may be an act of “Islamic terrorist” before finding the religion of the culprit,
    – after finding the relgion of the culprit, its an act of a “mad-man” who is charged with terrorism.

    I am still to find if any1 in WHOLE world media ever used the term “Chrsitain” terrorist just like they use “Islamic” terrorist.

    For Muslims:

    There is always “Islam/Muslim” + any crime

    For non-Muslims:

    u will not find this “chrsitianity/Chrsitian” or “Hindu/Hidnusim” + any crime

    I have showen enough proof with evidence, I just asked if u ever agree this hypocrisy of media?

  323. @Lynn,

    U get me wrong. I am not insulting u at all.
    As I said earlier, I share ur pain and suffering.

    I dont know details abt ur daughter but wat I know is she ran away with a pakistani.Madam, how can u blame and brush entire 1.5 Muslim population with single paint?

    Who knows ur daughter is the one who is reluctant and persistent?
    U brought up her since childhood but she doesnt listen to u.
    Then How can u expect her to listen others?

    Kindly note that gals running away with lovers and leaving her family is not something unusual. It happens very commonly. It happens among Muslims when parents dont accept, among castes in Hindus,
    with different relgions. Ur case is not the first time madam.

    Imagine how much pain u have been given just because of one human being(ur daughter). And u dont stop generalising 1.5 billion Muslim world because of JUST emotional pain but not physical pain?
    U dnt stop shouting to internet world that how bad they are, how Muslims are so and so?
    Please look urself in mirro and imagine ur patience.

    I am also a multiple and repeated victim of religious hate crime not only becoz of common non-Muslims but even communal police who is considered as “guardian of peace”. I was attacked physically by on the road when I went for tuition, I and my community was insulted by communal teachers. I had to be in the ICU because of police’s religious hate crime. I have to carry physical mark on my forhead for whole life and I want to carry it and learn lesson to segregate bad from good but not painting whole community. Do u suffer more than me? Do u suffer more than this Bangladeshi immigrant Rais Bhuiyan? And see the difference between u and this “Muslim” who is working for peace.

    What now, u found an evil pakistani who married ur daughter and also u found a great Muslim Rais Bhuiyan( who tried to save chrsitian racist who attacked him)? I think she is happy with her husband and so not coming to u, cant u share her happiness?

    Dont u think that u are doing ur part in spreading hate?
    Will u ever see things from different perspectives and angles? If u dnt still stop generalising world becoz of ur daughter, then people will stop respecting u and sharing ur pain and will start consider u a crap.

    But, I still dont utter single world in front of world abt my suffering due to hate crime but today I have to tell to make u understand.
    If u want proof, see here and search “Azad Ali”:

    http://www.pucl.org/reports/Delhi/delhi-jamia.htm

    I have more non-Muslim friends inspite of fact that me and my family suffered at the hand of non-Muslim terrorists.

    A Muslim suffers in hate crime more than any1 else in this world in school, college, airport, market, office.
    U are not alone madam.

    U cant tolerate ur EMOTIONAL pain and stop shouting and generalising a 1.5 billion community.
    At the same time, u blame Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) for defending his followers from the oppressors,
    inspite of the fact that He and his followers were kicked out of their home, their country, their relatives killed, their property looted.
    And only option left was “fight with those who fight and keep the innocents safe”

    Imagine, if people spread that “Lynn says this and that about her daughter, about Muslims, about her husband and his family” and completely hiding the context and fact that she gave u pain?

    This is how u and other self interested people spread about Muhammad out of context.

    PS: Please try to avoid googling virus and reading hate but read postive ones with clean mind and heart without pre-judgement.

  324. Azad: “And do u see “Christian terrorist” in the link u posted? Do u see any media in the world using “Christian”+”Terrorist” in this one of the most horrible terrorist attack in Europe? Why is this important term “Christian” missing from terrorist (unlike “Islamist” terrorist)?
    What happen to ur critical thinking madam?”

    Muslim world “insulted” and “outraged” by suspicion of Islamic terrorism in Norway attacks??? Particularly in an attack of such magnitude, the suspicion of involvement by al-Qaeda or a similar group was eminently reasonable: the majority of the terrorist attacks and counter-terror arrests in Europe in recent years have involved jihadist operations.

    The bomb was comparable not only to the Oklahoma City bomb, but also to those used in embassy bombings in Tanzania and Nairobi. The use of multiple attacks and a focus on symbolic targets are an al-Qaeda trademark, and deceit through the impersonation of military personnel or law enforcement has been a standard operating procedure particularly in Afghanistan and Iraq. Finally, a jihadist group did briefly claim credit, and that was newsworthy to report. When that fell through, it was also promptly reported.

    But there is one other noteworthy angle to the period in which the attack was plausibly speculated to be the work of jihadists: When people thought it was Muslims, the rationalization mill went into overdrive. Comments sections on news reports were riddled with pleas and demands to consider “underlying causes,” such as Norway’s involvement in campaigns in Afghanistan and Libya that have resulted in the loss of Muslim lives. The implication was that Norway had done it to itself for its treatment of Muslims, and for allying itself with America.

    By contrast, no one on whose behalf the bastard Breivik claimed to act has engaged in a comparable defense of or deflection of the blame for his crimes. Unlike Azad and many muslims like him who claim victimhood day in and day out, there was no victimhood narrative to act as an obstacle to condemning him and his actions properly and unequivocally.

    All in all, I think the media coverage by the mainstream media was very balanced and fair!

  325. ‘Kindly note that gals running away with lovers and leaving her family is not something unusual.’

    Kindly note that she did not run away with a lover. She had never even met her husband until she she ran away. She ran from the protection of her non-Muslim family because her religion told her that she is not to be under a non-Muslim’s protection. THAT is not generalizing but fact. Is it not?

    ‘I think she is happy with her husband and so not coming to u, cant u share her happiness?’

    Could you? Even if their behavior causes people to think that Islam is full of hypocrites and haters?

    ‘U brought up her since childhood but she doesnt listen to u’

    Well, she USED to listen to me. But then one day, when she was 12 years old she told me that I could not talk to her about ‘morality’ because I was not Muslim. Where could she have learned something like that? hmmmm, let me think…

    ‘Imagine, if people spread that “Lynn says this and that about her daughter, about Muslims, about her husband and his family” and completely hiding the context and fact that she gave u pain?’

    See, in MY community we don’t have to worry about what other people think about us so I don’t care what people I don’t know think about me. Those that know us, know the context.

    ‘Dont u think that u are doing ur part in spreading hate?’

    You may call it hate but I call it awareness. :-)

    I understand that you are from a culture that likes to hide the truth and your sins but I am from a culture that speaks the truth so that others can learn from your mistakes.

    How many times do I have to tell you that I do NOT believe that all Muslims are horrible or terrorists or evil people yet you, with your prejudiced mind, refuse to believe that someone who does not respect your religion can still respect a person who adheres to the religion?

  326. If you were to go on and on about what happened in that article what would your point be? That Indian police are brutal? It certainly didn’t have anything to do with religious prejudice since the article says:

    ‘Not that the students following other faiths escaped police brutality. The team went to the room 112 occupied by Debashish Bhattacharjee, member, cultural committee who was also meted out the same treatment.’

  327. - it may be an act of “Islamic terrorist” before finding the religion of the culprit,
    – after finding the relgion of the culprit, its an act of a “mad-man” who is charged with terrorism.

    Can you show me the articles you are referring to because I did not see them. I saw articles that said it could be al-Qaeda etc. Never did I see an article that said ‘Islamic terrorist’. I also did not see any articles that began calling the terroristic act anything other than terrorism. An act of terrorism is committed by terrorists so that means that they ARE calling him a terrorist. Perhaps your own prejudiced, angry mind goes into hyper defensiveness when there is any act of terrorism because you know that it is very likely that it was a coreligionist that did it and you might have to fear for your life in case of retaliation. If that is the case you are going to have a pretty rough life. Perhaps you can frequent an Islamic blog or website like Islamicity or IslamQ&A and correct those Muslims on there that spread the kind of hate that I read there. If you could manage to make a difference in the minds of THOSE people then perhaps you could make a difference in mine or others that don’t ‘respect’ your chosen religion.

  328. I understand that you are from a culture that likes to hide the truth and your sins but I am from a culture that speaks the truth so that others can learn from your mistakes.
    —————————–

    Same shit crap again.
    Please dont talk about my culture GIRL. At least respect ur age. When I talk with respect, u also need to reciprocate. But, unfortunately an old lady but gal is showing same craps. I said all with proof and evidence.

    See, plz bring ur daughter here and let’s hear both sides. We are bored of hearing one sided story.

    She is still 12? What now?
    Why she wants evil relgion and leave GOD mother like u?
    If she is under 18, then take legal action. If she is over 18 then give her freedom to do what she likes.

    Or, Is it becoz u keep spitting venom agaisnt a particular relgion and God punished u and ur own daughter accepted that same evil relgion and left u? We see hatred for relgion in public forum, imagine what u might have done inside ur home.

    Unable to segregate good and bad and always generalise by taking bad example.

    Better let me keep silent and reserve my respect I give to elders.

  329. @Harry,

    I have given ample evidence from honest but few western media and showed the hypocrisy of people and media. Pls Look back again in this forum.

    Note it again:

    “EU Report2010:Only 1/294 terrorist attack byMuslim”

    http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sa=X&ei=eHctTrXGFsWKswavk733Dw&sqi=2&ved=0CBYQBSgA&q=Only+1/294+terrorist+attack+by+Muslim&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c8e4e12b57004ea2&biw=1280&bih=933

    And why “Islamist terrorist” and why not “Chrsitian terrorist”?

  330. @Azad – ‘Please dont talk about my culture GIRL. At least respect ur age. When I talk with respect, u also need to reciprocate.’

    Are you telling me that I was misinformed about Muslims being encouraged by Mohammed to NOT to tell their secrets in order to not give people ideas?

    When you start taking with respect perhaps I will too.

    I have told you that presuming that people are just ignorant and speaking only from a prejudiced, hate filled heart IS insulting. Can’t you see that?

    ‘Or, Is it becoz u keep spitting venom agaisnt a particular relgion and God punished u and ur own daughter accepted that same evil relgion and left u? We see hatred for relgion in public forum, imagine what u might have done inside ur home.’

    See? Now why in the world would you presume that about me. Now you have to go looking like a raving prejudiced fool when I tell you, again, that I was the one trying to teach HER these peaceful things about her chosen religion (we raised our kids with the freedom to choose their own religion). I wish I had a video of what she had to say when I was defending Islam by saying that Osama bin Laden was NOT a true Muslim, that Muslims are peaceful people and blah blah blah all the politically correct bull that’s out there (I hadn’t yet read the Quran in full). She very vehemently denied that he was not a Muslim but insisted that he was, in fact, one of the BEST. The only argument we had about Islam was that I felt that she was insulting Muslims and Islam with her behaviors (notebooks full of praise and birthday greetings for Hitler for example).

    So how about this Mr. Azad Ali Shah, how about next time you hear someone say something about Islam you ask them where they came up with their understanding instead of just trying to label them as just prejudiced haters? Doesn’t your religion tell you to think the BEST of people? Or is that just fellow Muslims and you are trained to mistrust non-Muslims? Oh, that sounds familiar, where did I read that? OH, now I remember, that was in the Islamic Sunday School text book that my daughter’s Muslim friend sent home with her.

  331. @Azad – This morning in court the Norwegian judge would not let the ‘terrorist’ speak in court because he knew it would just be an anti-Muslim rant. How do you feel about that?

    Also, I was reading about his ‘manifesto’ and nowhere did I read anything about his religion having anything to do with it. But you want him to be called a Christian Terrorist? He might be a Christian and he IS a terrorist but I would want proof that he found encouragement to perform this horrific act from his Holy Book.

    Now, think about the ‘Islamic Terrorists’ that shout Allahu Akbar before committing their terror crimes and then talk to their parents and hear them talk about the pride they have for their brave martyrs. Compare that scene to what the Norwegian Terrorist wrote in his manifesto:

    “Not only will all my friends and family detest me and call me a monster; the united global multiculturalist media will have their hands full figuring out multiple ways to character assassinate, vilify and demonize,”

    Big difference, eh?

  332. Azad: “And why “Islamist terrorist” and why not “Chrsitian terrorist”?”

    It is because, since 9/11, muslim terrorists have carried out 17,498 terrorist attacks world-wide (as documented by terrorist watch agencies). So when a terrorist attack happens anywhere, naturally the first thing that comes to one’s mind is “islamist terrorists”.

    We are all humans and Life ain’t fair, is it???? :)-

  333. @Lynn,

    Can u please share the link that ur daughter wrote to an Islamic site when she was 12 years old?

  334. Now, think about the ‘Islamic Terrorists’ that shout Allahu Akbar before committing their terror crimes and then talk to their parents and hear them talk about the pride they have for their brave martyrs. Compare that scene to what the Norwegian Terrorist wrote in his manifesto:
    ——————————-

    @Lynn,

    I replied already and came back with same question. Did u or any1 met those bombers before they die and using Quran to bomb? Or did any1 worked with them?

    Or is it that a numbers of movies and news are spread like this and one copy another?

    Or is it that no one makes movie on how that Norwegian bobmer used Bible?

    Or is it jsut all craps and propaganda.

  335. Harry,

    Why u guys ignore the list of links and hypocrasy of media I showed?
    What u say abt that? Are u at least accept existence of such hypocrisy? Those links are facts from non-Muslim media.

    Keeping terrorism aside, what abt “Muslim” father raped?
    And what about “John” raped? Why “Christian” is missing from any crime?

    Why it should be always Muslim Vs Crime?

  336. ‘Can u please share the link that ur daughter wrote to an Islamic site when she was 12 years old?’

    My daughter never wrote any posts (that I know of). You are thinking about the link I gave from Islam Q & A where a 12 year old was writing in about problems living with her non-Muslim family. I never said that was my daughter and the purpose of giving that link was for you to read the kind of solutions they gave her which included deceit.

    ‘I replied already and came back with same question. Did u or any1 met those bombers before they die and using Quran to bomb? Or did any1 worked with them?’

    The airplane’s black box told us things, the phone calls from the terrorized passengers on the airplane told us things and their leader, Osama bin Laden told us LOTS of things to help us to understand that their religion/love for fellow Muslims had VERY much to do with their actions.

    We did NOT ignore your links of media hypocrisy, we just didn’t find the same thing that you did.

    ‘Or is it that no one makes movie on how that Norwegian bobmer used Bible?’

    We have yet to see that. There is NO doubt in my mind that if this guy used his religious extremism to fuel his terror then YES, the movie will show it.

  337. ‘Keeping terrorism aside, what abt “Muslim” father raped?’

    Did you try to Google that? I did

  338. My daughter never wrote any posts (that I know of). You are thinking about the link I gave from Islam Q & A where a 12 year old was writing in about problems living with her non-Muslim family.
    ————————————

    @Lynn,

    What a co-incidence!! Ur daughter was 12 when she wanted to convert to Islam and stood against u and u also got another gal of 12 yrs old who also wanted to converted to Islam and stood against their family.

    And you manged to find same 12 years old gal and her post. A complete co-incidence. This world is really round!!

    Anyway, hope u gets some peace. As u started sharing abt ur daughter, I want to know what really happened to her in details, if u can share.

  339. ‘What a co-incidence!! Ur daughter was 12 when she wanted to convert to Islam and stood against u and u also got another gal of 12 yrs old who also wanted to converted to Islam and stood against their family.’

    I know!! It shocked me very much! But it also made me wake up and realize that it is happening and people need to be aware.

    So, what about the other points that I made to you? No response to them?

    What do you think about all those proud mothers holding pictures of their beautiful, brave martyrs (suicide bombers)?

  340. So, what about the other points that I made to you? No response to them?
    ——————————-
    Which points?

    What do you think about all those proud mothers holding pictures of their beautiful, brave martyrs (suicide bombers)?
    ————————————————————–
    Where do u see that? In between here is a suicide bomber who inspired from thier holy books, which belong to the terrorist group which killed former Prime Minister of world’s largest democracy. But, media never tagged their relgion when they mention “terrorist”.

    Isnt it hypocrisy?

    http://expressbuzz.com/world/prabhakaran-was-inspired-by-gita/69693.html

    Imagine how world media fail to propagate it!!
    A group which killed a PM of a country in suicide attack and inspired by holy book.

    In between, I didnt understand ur response to my question “Why ‘Muslim’ father raped?” but not why “Ahamad raped?” just like “John raped?”

  341. ‘In between, I didnt understand ur response to my question “Why ‘Muslim’ father raped?’

    I googled it and I didn’t find any news source claiming anything like that. Show me a news article (not blog post or other opinion piece) that tells their religion when the religion was not a factor in the crime.

  342. http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/07/25/norway.terror.attacks/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

    ‘Breivik, 32, is a suspected right-wing Christian extremist who appears to have written a 1,500-page manifesto ranting against Muslims and laying out meticulous plans to prepare for the attacks.’

    Is that what you are looking for?

  343. I googled it and I didn’t find any news source claiming anything like that. Show me a news article (not blog post or other opinion piece) that tells their religion when the religion was not a factor in the crime.
    ——————————————————-

    @Lynn and Harry,

    Please search “when its muslim” or “when Muslims do” in this same topic and see what kind of hypocrisy its when a crime is done by Muslim and the same crime is done by non-Muslims. And make sure to reply what u feel after seeing.

  344. Is that what you are looking for?

    ———————————————————-

    @Lynn,

    I am not looking for anything but wanted to say that people form judgement and opinion based on what they hear and see in media. I am not happy to see “CHrsitian terrorist” but wanted to show how media is so biased when a crime is done by a Muslim.

    You will end up ur energy in googling but u will never find “Christian terrorist” (extremist, fanatic, fundamentalist is very weak word as compared to terrorist). I have done enough reasearch on media propaganda and hypocrisy. It doesnt mean that there is no sincere media too. I showed enough evidence of hypocrisy and sincerity from the non-Muslim media in above links in this topic. I am showing what media does generally and how people perceive what they show.

  345. Md. ali…

    I typed in Christian terrorist and got 25,000,000 hits. surely some are repeats. But at the moment I am not sure that there is an equivalency here. Has the guy in Norway claimed it was done in the name of christianity? If not then how can you compare those of the Muslim faith who claim it for jihad and someone who doesn’t?

    To be sure I think both sides are severely misguided and wrong but if this loon from Norway does not even practice religion which I have not been able to find any indication he did…then he is not a “christian” terrorist who does it based on his holy book or how he interprets his holy book. He could be labeled a racist, a bigot, a muslim hater, etc…but it does not make his intentions religiously based. He could very well be an atheist who hates foreigners.

  346. ‘I am not looking for anything but wanted to say that people form judgement and opinion based on what they hear and see in media’

    But you failed because you have not proven anything.

  347. Azad, this is the kind of news that I see. Can you please read this article and let me know if you find anything offensive in it.

    http://news.yahoo.com/muhammad-sentenced-life-ark-soldier-killing-185351139.html

  348. Just got back from camping. I am too old to sleep on hard earth, but at least I was on top of it.

    I want to apologize here for my comment above indicating it was probably Muslims who were responsible for the Norway terror. I waited until some jihadi group claimed responsibility to stick foot in mouth, but I was wrong. Wasn’t the first time nor will it be the last. Just shows that not all the bad guys are Muslims. Sorry!

    Yet for the life of me I can’t figure the motivation and mentality of the vile person who killed so many, many of whom were kids. I guess I don’t want to know. I guess evil is evil, however you package it.

    With or without this terror, the issue remains. I would like to add a few words here from the N.Y. Times:

    Quote:
    The horror in Norway no more discredits Merkel’s views on Muslims assimilation than Ted Kaczynski’s bombs discredited Al Gore’s views on the dark side of industrialization. On the big picture, Europe’s cultural conservatives are right: Mass immigration really has left the Continent more divided than enriched, Islam and liberal democracy have not yet proven natural bedfellows and the dream of a postnational, postpatriotic European Union governed by a benevolent ruling elite looks more like a folly every day.
    For decades, Europe’s governing classes insisted that only racists worried about immigration, only bigots doubted the success of multiculturalism and only fascists cared about national identity. Now that a true far-right radical has perpetrated a terrible atrocity, it will be easy to return to those comforting illusions.
    But extremists only grow stronger when a political system pretends that problems don’t exist. Conservatives on both sides of the Atlantic have an obligation to acknowledge that Anders Behring Breivik is a distinctively right-wing kind of monster. But they also have an obligation to the realities that this monster’s terrible atrocity threatens to obscure.
    End of Quote.

    So, the problem remains and it cannot be solved without pain and sorrow. No, you do not shoot innocent people, whatever their faith, race, nationality, gender or ideology

  349. I forgot the reference for the NYT article::

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/opinion/25douthat.html?ref=opinion

    Azad, please stop the nonsense about how peaceful, tolerant and pure your prophet was. You know and I know all about the wars, plunder, attacks, enslavement, murder and rape. If you mention this subject again I am going to start quoting specific verses about these deeds, with links to the hadith text, not some silly fantasy article you wrote about Muhammad. If you want to talk about massacres, I think I can find some in your closet. You know I can do it. Most of us here have been down this road many times, in many threads, so let it go.

    Lynn, I’m back and I got your back.

  350. What that Norwegian guy did have was a religious background. As soon as you think God is behind you, that you are doing God’s work, any atrocity is possible.

  351. @ Norwegian Guy

    Sad smugness after Oslo ….

    Because one Christian fundamentalist terrorist committed a vile and despicable act in Norway does not exonerate or diminish the seriousness of the problem of Islamic fundamentalism. All forms of absolutist ideologies have to be resisted whether right wing, left wing or flightless follies that might later take wing!

  352. The problem is religion. Once you think god is on your side anything is possible. Including the worst atrocities against humanity.

  353. Thanks Jay ;-) lol

    @Harry – ‘All forms of absolutist ideologies have to be resisted whether right wing, left wing or flightless follies that might later take wing!’

    AMEN!

    @Aafke – Scary, isn’t it?

    I hope that they do let him speak. I am very curious to see if he is going to be able to justify his acts by using the Bible.

    I have friends in Norway and when they were here visiting I remember them saying that religion is not very popular in Norway.

  354. this loon from Norway does not even practice religion which I have not been able to find any indication he did…
    ——————————————————————-

    Oby,

    He is a fundamentalist christian. Please find more. he is not atheist

  355. But you failed because you have not proven anything.
    ———————————————————————

    @Lynn,

    Those links I posted from since non-Muslim media are created by me? What proof u want?

  356. Azad, please stop the nonsense about how peaceful, tolerant and pure your prophet was.
    ———————————————————————

    @Jay,

    I think u are tired from ur camp or somehow u are suffering from Islamophobia. I didnt write anything abt Muhammad here in this topic.

  357. Finally this bombing and killing will endup by saying an act of Psychic, mad-man etc. A nice article here:

    ——————-
    We dismiss this “madman” as a one-off “not linked to any international terrorist organisations” at our peril. If nothing else, history has shown us that such ideologies are trans-national across and beyond the West, with catastrophic effects on the rest of the world. We have been warned.

    http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/07/2011723135619293955.html

  358. @harry,

    Any kind of hatred and killing is not acceptable. But even though a muslim terrorist bomb for political reason, the term Islamic/Muslim is unseparable that we dnt see when the bomber is christian.

    we have been seeing the result of hatred in this world.
    We know how Osama ends up when he hates west.
    We know how this Norwagian ends up when he hates Muslims
    We also know some1 here in this forum becoz of hatred.

    How can hate return good?

  359. All gives excuse Islam+Quran blah blah for terrorism.

    No one reply my evidence and proof.
    Why Muslim father raped? Why not Father raped or Ahamad raped?
    But why John raped? why not Christian Father raped?

    Why Muslim father killed but why not Christian father killed?

    Are the links I Provided as proof not enough?

    How people ignore things to suit their needs and difficult to accept truth and hypocrisy.

  360. ‘We also know some1 here in this forum becoz of hatred.’

    Huh? Have you heard anyone here say that hatred is good?

    Have you heard anyone here say that they ‘hate’ anything?

    Why can you not see that YOU are one of those that are filled with hate fueled by your own preconceived ideas (possibly formed by some source that you chose to take as fact) that if someone does not like Islam they automatically HATE Muslims. If you could allow that to sink in then maybe you could have a discussion that does not include you making hate filled accusations against people and their intentions.

    I’m going to try this one more time Azad. If something is called an ‘Opinion’ piece, like your last link, then it is not journalism but an individual’s OPINION and we know very well that there are a lot of them and EVERYone is entitled to their’s, do you agree?

  361. ‘No one reply my evidence and proof.
    Why Muslim father raped? Why not Father raped or Ahamad raped?’

    No, I did but you ignored that. I told you that I googled Muslim father and I could not find ANY news articles thing that said anything like that.

    If you want to be taken seriously then you have to show us a specific article that says the things that you say they say. Otherwise it sounds like you are just trying to make things up. Just because you label something as ‘proof’ does not make it so. So, when you see a news article that seems prejudicial and/or racist then please, point the specific article out to us and we will discuss your feelings about it. No more hypothetical articles, m’kay?

  362. No, I did but you ignored that.
    ————————————————————-
    @Lynn,

    I replied. But u failed to see.
    I said search “When Muslims do” or “when its Muslim” in this same topic.

  363. ‘I replied. But u failed to see’

    No you didn’t. I want you to show me a NEWS article, not OPINION piece that talks about the religion of the perpetrator when the religion plays no part in the acts. Just show me one. One shouldn’t be too hard for you to come up with.

  364. Dear Lynn,

    If read back u are the one who started attacking me first. I ignored ur painful words but u didnt stop. It made me extremely angry and I was foreced to reply angrily, which in turn make me feel bad. I dnt like to use any harsh word but want to respect all human being on earth. I know I should respect all, should be calm and no excuse at all to reply angrily to some1. But, as a human being I too get angry suddenly.
    Even though I used certain words, I dont mean it in reality. I share ur pain and suffering sincerely.

    Let’s respect each other. I have no hard feelings and u too please. Let’s stop attacking each other at once from now onwards. Cheers :)

    Here is one of the link I am showing. Its very common to tag Muslims/Islam with crime even though the crime is purely human’s act or political.

    “Muslim Man Kills Pregnant Wife After Ultrasound Reveals Girl”

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8b4_1273803872

    It may happen with other religion but once in blue moon but with Muslims its so common. I have give a number of links –
    How media, authority doesnt highlight other’s terrorist activites, crime but surely in case of Muslims.

  365. And see here similar news when the criminal is non-Muslim:

    “Man Kills Self, Five Others in Texas Birthday Party Shooting Spree”

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/man-kills-self-five-others-in-texas-birthday-party-shooting-spree-52801/

    No religion is mentioned here. I think I provided a list of Muslim Vs Non-Muslim in early posts. I dnt know why u dnt like to see that as proof.

  366. Azad, I think I see the problem. It’s the sites you go to!! Why don’t you ask whoever wrote that why they said Muslim Man…? They provided the link to where they got the news from and guess what? That JEWISH newspaper never mentioned his religion. That site that you choose to go to added it. Want a solution to your problem? Start looking for your news in legitimate news sites rather than blogs. That might be a start.

    But please, tell me what those painful words were that made you so angry.

  367. @Oby,

    As I said before, Breivik was a learned Christian.

    Any human being on earth can behave like animal. He may claim as devout, conservative, reliogious. It doesnt mean that his belief should be blamed for his crime. We should condemn his crime and his way but not his religion. Whatever I said doesnt mean that I want to add “Chrsitianity” to the terrorism but wanted to tell that how media shows impacts mass. I very well know that majority of people..99.99% want peace and harmony.

    “EU Report 2010:Only Only 1 out of 294 terrorist attack by Muslim”

    But Muslim/Islam is considered the biggest threat due to media.

    ———–

    Breivik said he had completed “3,000 hours of study in micro and macro finance, religion,” and describes himself as being both Christian and conservative.

    He says that attacks on a “peace-loving country” like Norway can have a “maximum impact.”

    “It’ll have an impact all over Europe,” he said.

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/norway-bombing-attacker-shooter-anders-behring-breivik-a-christian-52735/

  368. Start looking for your news in legitimate news sites rather than blogs. That might be a start.
    —————————————————

    @Lynn,

    Ok see here plz.

    “South Carolina Man Kills Ex-Girlfriend, Her Children, Himself, Police Say’

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/16/cops-man-kills-woman-2-children-self-sc-31352156/#ixzz1TFulwOpM

    U will not find religion of the killer here.

  369. “US man ‘kills four people’ in New York 28-hour rampage”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12442100

    There are all similar killing of family members. But when criminal is Muslim, “Muslim” is tagged but not other relgion.

    I can show all types of crimes. But, as I said and as the video shows above in details from sincere non-Muslims, media bias is there and so people percieve Muslim/Islam as evil.

  370. Azad, thank you for the links that show that the criminal’s religion was not mentioned.

    You proved half of your point. Now I want to see the actual articles that show the Muslim man’s religion being used as you say. I can show (and I HAVE shown) links to ones where they were Muslim and they committed a crime and their religion was never mentioned.

  371. Tariq Jahan: “I have lost my son – if you want to lose yours step forward, otherwise calm down.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14481061

    Birmingham disorder: Father’s plea over Haroon Jahan death

  372. The media better get their shit together! Where does that article tell us how horrible Islam and Muslims are? Perhaps you were wrong in your assertions? LOL

  373. What I don’t understand is how Muslims, such as our friend Azad for example, cannot fail to see how the constant and very vicious portrayal of Non-Muslims in Islam’s writings can be anything but a source of friction between us. Maybe this explains the way Muslims treat non-Muslims where they dominate (who knows? wild guess!)

    How can a Muslim sit down with a non-Muslim when Allah tells the Muslim the other is lower than an animal, or when Mohammad made constant brutal war on them. To me, this is an issue. Yet even the ‘good’ Muslim will go to a mosque and hear the Imam curse infidels and think nothing of it. They can also read the thousands of derogatory remarks in the Quran about unbelievers, and this does not bother them either. I know because I have put a quran under their noses and asked them to explain – and the answers were not encouraging.

    Now if a non-Muslim says anything unkind about Islam, now that is hate and islamophobia. yeah, really really bad.

  374. @Lynn,

    I never said all media are bad. I have shown the exposure of good and sincere media too. It seems u miss many things in this same topic.

    @Jay,

    Dear friend, please look urself who fail to write bad things about Muslims/Islam. You or me? Its amazing that u keep spreading what u feel even after showing what Imams tell in Mosque and how they ask to help any1 who is needy irrespective of religion. U also have seen how non-Muslims are invited and eat together…and some even without invitation they come and eat together with Muslims in the thread “When non-Muslim is invited in Ramdan…..” but u dont stop ur propaganda that Muslims hate non-Muslims, curse them blah blah.. Who is creating friction between Muslims and non-Muslims? U need a mirror and reply urself. I think u too missed a lot in this same topic and the Ramdan invitation topic. Sometimes, we human being need to look into ourselves too.

  375. How bad a person can be and how good a person can be!!

    How bad:

    London Riots 2011 – Man Helped and Then Robbed. (Malaysian student / Asyraf Haziq):

    How good:

    i) And here, When the crime is done by worst crimnal, its the good people who feel shame and help.

    http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/8/12/nation/9289078&sec=nation

    ii) Still victim doesnt have grudges:

    “Ashraf Rossli, 20, says he bears no grudges over the mugging”: (as per dailymail.co.uk)

    Above links shows both good and bad people in this world irrespective of faith.
    Hope we can segregate bad from good irrespective of faith,relgion:

  376. “We ask the brothers who are fluent in the English language to write a number of inciting sentences” ….

    Islamic supremacists in Britain and around the muslim world are loving the violence and hoping to provoke some of their own. These extremists are trying to capitalize on the riots engulfing Britain, calling on the ummah to help incite further violence so that a terror attack can be launched amid the chaos. The extremists are characterizing the violence as “useful” for London-based muslim terror cells, saying the rioters are young and impressionable, and can be easily manipulated if the messages appear to be the sort of things they would write.

    “We ask the brothers who are fluent in the English language to write a number of inciting sentences (at least ten sentences or phrases) and post them here in the subject,” various muslim sites say. “We will do the rest with permission from Allah.” In the absence of opening the way to a terror attack, efforts to encourage more violence may achieve other jihadist aims, according to a supporter of the jihadist entries.

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/08/10/would-be-terrorists-looking-to-capitalize-on-u-k-riots/

  377. @Azad – ‘Above links shows both good and bad people in this world irrespective of faith.’

    But we already knew that! You are the only one here that is trying to say that we believe ALL Muslims are bad. Can you PLEASE get that through your head? Don’t you see how it is an insult to continuously accuse people of things that are not true? Isn’t that kind of prejudiced of you to assume those things about us just because we think your religion leaves much to be desired? Prejudice and insults, two things that you yourself complain about all the time, no?

    Your original complaint is that the media mentions the criminal’s religion only when it is a Muslim. Those are the links that I want you to show in order to prove your point. If you cannot do that then please stop spreading that lie as it does nothing to promote peace between people. Agreed?

    I hope you are having a pleasant Ramadan.

  378. @Harry,

    Wow!! Where do u live Harry? But I shifted to UK just 3 months back. Prime MInster David cameron and several officers appreciated the role of Muslim community for peace in this riot. David Cameron praised in parliament session. Have a look here:

    UK Muslims Respond to Hate Crime with Prayer:

    http://www.voanews.com/english/news/europe/UK-Muslims-Use-Prayer-Not-Revenge-in-Response-to-Hate-Crime-127541538.html

    Several praises here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14488901

    What u bring is called hatred and this is what Muslims hate. Even the authority in London can not find the real cause of riot inspite of dedicated investigation till now.

    Now see who is doing investigation and mixing Muslims with this riot …..somehow , somewhere Muslims have to be tagged with crime/extremism?

    “Washington-based monitoring group SITE” and published from New york :):):):):):):):)

    Its shows reality of anti-Islamic agents working 24×7.

    Eh…I forgot if there is leakage on the roof , there is hand of Al-Qaida or Muslim extremists

    Do u see an iota of truth in the news u bring? Can u compare ur link and my links?

  379. Dear Lynn,

    Thanks for the wishes. and same to u.
    I dont think that u guys think all Muslims are bad. And I didnt say this.

    Well, u seem to reply to me only.

    Sincerely want to know, what do u think that what people like Jay (who never met a Muslim in his life, who was never invited to an Iftar party or Eid or who never invited a Muslim in his life, who never interacted a Muslim in his life, who never visited a mosque and eat and sit along with Muslim) says about Muslims constantly? If u dont remember what he says abt Muslims, read back plz.

    And I am shocked how people silently give green signal and appreciation to the hatred speech?

  380. “We ask the brothers who are fluent in the English language to write a number of inciting sentences” ….

    ———————————————————-
    @Harry,

    Ur media used one of the most favorite statement and u also quoted ur most favourite statement.

    -First of all, I am sure there is no such news in any Islamic sites.
    -Considering there is one, what is the basis of making a hatred stuff found in a hatemongering site to be made as news and publish to people?
    How many baseless hate contents in internet world? HOw can these be considered as facts?

    Well, Kindly ask ur “Washington-based monitoring group SITE” to find out where is the web server of these Islamic extremists sitting? Is it in mountain of Afghanistan or a posh and stalwart building in New York? What is the ip address from where it was published? WHo are the engineers who maintain these servers?

    Such a great investigating group should be able to find and answer these questions right?
    Otherwise those who publish and propagate such fake news are agents/thugs of hatred, whose work is to spread hatred.

  381. @Azad – ‘I dont think that u guys think all Muslims are bad. And I didnt say this’

    Yes, you did. You say it ALL the time. I keep telling you the same thing over and over again. Just because someone does not believe in your religion (even if they think the worst of it) does NOT mean that they hate all followers of that religion.

    .’And I am shocked how people silently give green signal and appreciation to the hatred speech?’

    The problem is that you are seeing it as hatred speech when it is not. Just because someone is expressing an educated opinion (like Jay does) and it does not agree with your own opinion does not make it ‘hatred speech’ but that is how you take it and that is something that you are going to have to work on to learn to stop doing.

    Are you sure about those claims that you make against Jay? If what you say about him is wrong then what does that say about you? Jay IS educated about Islam he may even know more, have read more about Islam than you even. How many Muslims do you know that have never even read the Quran? There are a LOT of them, isn’t there? So, Jay has educated himself on Islam and he has a negative opinion of it. So? You haven’t been able to show him that he is wrong in what he understands but rather you throw unwarranted accusations of ‘hater’ at him because of his opinion.

    You seem to always be throwing accusations out that you can’t back up. Do you ever see Jay do that? No, because his opinions are based on FACTS when yours seem to be based on some anti-western propaganda and bullshit websites.

    You never did respond to me when I pointed out an error in your accusations against the ‘Western Media’. Remember this?:

    Azad, I think I see the problem. It’s the sites you go to!! Why don’t you ask whoever wrote that why they said Muslim Man…? They provided the link to where they got the news from and guess what? That JEWISH newspaper never mentioned his religion. That site that you choose to go to added it.

    What do you say about that? So, I’m still waiting for you to be able to prove those accusations that you made and you haven’t been able to so you give us links to news about good Muslims as if that was the question when it wasn’t. I want to see all these articles that you claim the show the Muslim criminal’s religion when the crime is not related to his religion. If you cannot will you please retract your statement against ‘western media’s anti Muslim propaganda’?

  382. Multi-Culturalism At Work :)-

    “No matter how hot it gets on the practice field at Wesley Chapel High in Florida, Ahmed Elshaer of Saudi Arabia will not drink. No matter how faint the senior offensive lineman feels, he will not eat. Elshaer is fasting from all food and drink from sunup to sundown for Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of August. So now, all the Christian players are forced to cater to one muslim’s religious demands”.

    http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog/prep_rally/post/Teenager-practices-in-extreme-heat-without-water?urn=highschool-wp4537&print=1

  383. Harry, did you copy that from the link you provided? I didn’t see that part rather I read:

    “When the Wesley Chapel team takes water breaks, Elshaer dumps water over his head and neck in an effort to cool down his core temperature.”

    It’s an interesting story. I hope the poor guy survives football practice in the FL heat! He seems to have a good attitude about it.

  384. I am inviting my non-Muslim friends, colleagues, family (who I, Muslims consider worst than animals :) ) on every weekends as Ramdan is going to finish. I am helping my Spanish wife who doesnt know much how to cook and we dont have maid/servants. So, I am busy. I will reply if I feel required when I am little bit free. And I havent read any of ur comments.

  385. @Harry,
    That link you provided was relevant in what way? That website is juvenile and sad.

  386. Azad -‘who I, Muslims consider worst than animals’

    Seeee? You are doing it again. We are not saying that Muslims THINK that, we say that your Holy Book TEACHES that. Do you see the difference? The way that you put it criticizes the ‘person’ the way it is intended is to be critical of a ‘religion’. Your religion is very, very clear about what you should think of me, as I am a non-believing infidel. Is it not? Do most Muslims ignore that? Hopefully, but the fact is, it IS there and IS used. Do you deny that?

  387. Muslims tackle looters and bigots
    British Muslims’ reaction to the riots should dispel any continued demonisation in the media.

    -Robert Lambert, Retd, London Metropolitan Police

    http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/08/201181210928899563.html

    Anti Islamist/Anti-Muslim, baseless hate oriented writers, hateful keyboard worriers should read such realistic news and stop their hatred discourse and propaganda immediately. They also should stop brainwashing good non-Muslim people by saying Muslim do this ..do that…Rather they need to learn to segregate bad from good,keeping aside religion. Its time people think for good and peace in this world. Otherwise, such people will rott in hell for their injustice and for spreading hatred. God is same for everyone.

    @Lynn, I am a Muslim who at least consider himself as good Muslim and good human being if not very good Muslim. I read Quran and I take things in context. Dont say I dnt follow Quran plz.

  388. Azad, Perhaps you could just answer my question? I thought it was an easy question. I’ll repeat it for you:

    Your religion is very, very clear about what you should think of me, as I am a non-believing infidel. Is it not? Do most Muslims ignore that? Hopefully, but the fact is, it IS there and IS used. Do you deny that?

  389. @Harry Guggen,

    I agree with Kristine. You are now in hatemongering territory. Instead of discussing issues in an objective manner, you seem to read site who’s objective is to focus on spreading hate based on religion and ethnicity. The last link is just one of the many examples of the type of reading you do.

    There is a fine line between criticizing a religion and hate speech, you have crossed that line a long time ago and now you sound more and more like the hatemongers you read….

    Sorry, I am just calling it as i see it….

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