For a Saudi, whether living within or out of Saudi Arabia, life can be compared to living in a fishbowl at many times. What do I mean by that? What a Saudi does or how a Saudi acts is watched closely by other Saudis. A Saudi has to be conscious of what he or she says or does as that will reflect not only on the Saudi but on the extended family.
There are all kind of “watchers” in Saudi Arabia. The muttawa are probably the most overt of the watchers. It is their official responsibility to prevent vice and protect morality. As a result they are openly seen in the malls, shopping centers, outside of grocery stores and many other places known to have large gatherings of society.
The other “watchers” are comprised of peers, friends, family and the others in Saudi society. Saudis can be judged by other Saudis by the way they wear their clothes, the way they walk or the way they talk.
I remember from my own personal experiences my own dear husband chastising me if I innocently and spontaneous reached out for his hand or touched his arm when we were out shopping if I wanted to show him something. “Don’t do that!” He’d caution me. “People are watching and will think you are a loose woman.”
I asked him why did it matter what others thought. Most of them were unknown to us. He told me that you never knew who could be watching, especially of the women who were veiled. They could recognize us and form negative impressions that would make its way back to family besides tarnishing the family name.
Many times he’d ask me to cover my head while we were in the car if there was a lot of congested traffic around us for fear that someone who knew him would see us. Not everyone in the extended family were in support of choosing to not wear a hijjab. He also said that society would view us as more respectable.
By the same token, the many times we were outside of Saudi Arabia, it was common for my husband and other Saudis to express with joy how they felt free. It was in no way meant to be against Saudi Arabia. All these individuals are and were proud of their nationality and their country. But at those times, it would be my husband who would take the initiative to hold my hand as we walked through a shopping center.
Many times, I would hear a Saudi express “If I only had a simple life.” My husband was among those. I believe my husband meant that he wanted a life where he did not worry about perceptions of others. He wanted to feel comfortable to say whatever he thought without a fear of repercussion if overheard by the wrong individual. He did not want to fear a challenge by the muttawa if he was with me who chose not to cover her head. He wanted to be comfortable and relaxed wherever he was and not only within the confines of his home or outside of the Kingdom.
I’d like to hear from other Saudis and what is their view of a simple life.
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I have to laugh at this one. My friend, who doesn’t cover was shopping in the mall and mutawa yelled at her to cover herself. She just ignored him and kept on shopping. So, when she was about to get into her husband’s car, they told the husband to make her cover. He yelled back, “You tell her yourself, she doesn’t listen to a thing I say!” ROFL She’s not Muslim, and she didn’t think that the guy had any right to tell her what to do. ANY guy including her husband, that is. ; ]
This kind of feeling,being watched constantly,reminds me of time when I was growing up in Russia. One was judged by the way they dress, walk, talk and generally behave even behind the closed doors in their own apartment. I always had to be aware of what I say, where I go and whom I am interacting with in public, since you never know who have seen you and what kind of conclusions they make out of it. Being a teenager you tend to be somewhat careless in expressing yourself, so my mom would get all kind of comments about me. She became a widow with 2 children at the age of 40, so you can imagine what people, including our closest neighbors, were saying about her.
I must say that from year 1980, when my father died till 1996, when I left for the USA I do not remember a single occasion of man staying in our house overnight. Mom was working full time, my sister was straight A student in the local university, working hard to get the stipend, since life was hard financially for us. I was just 11 years old, but we were “whores” for the society, since it was hard for them to comprehend, how 2 young women can live without man, must be doing something somewhere…Later, when I was working in the local TV company, I experienced the “Joy” of celebrity life on myself. Couldn’t even go and throw the garbage out without a makeup. Going to a grocery store or to any other public establishment would cause a bizarre stories to come up the very next day.That was some sick 3 years in my life. Thanks God, it is over. Here in Saudi I feel better, because I am not Saudi, I am not Muslim, I do not give a …. what they do or will think about me. 13 years in the US have finally paid off, I overcame my complexes and sure, that there is nothing wrong with me, but with the majority of people around. It is easy to see a sand of grain in someone’s eye, but not to notice the slab of wood in yours…
I can tell that many Saudis would like to live their simple life far away from any social restrictions or people expectations. Life is short and we should make it simple to become long and enjoyable.
@lada,
This is a candid comment full of emotions and indicating a nice personality. Do you live in Saudi now?
@Medina
Yes, I do live in Saudi Arabia for almost 2 years.
Lada,
Your mom sounds like an incredible woman as do you.
Thank you, Carol. My Mom is my best friend, there is no day we do not talk on the phone. I wish she could stay with me here, in Saudi Arabia, but unfortunately it is impossible.
Hope you feel better soon and have your kitties with you.
I’m not Saudi but I think the feeling of being “watched and judged” here applies to everyone really, foreigners included.
I often take my children out alone without the hubby as he is always busy with work. My kids want to have fun and more times than not I must play the “daddy” role and teach them how to shoot hoops or play air-hockey in one of the indoor fun parks they have here. We frequent both the ladies only parks and also those that are for families. It is usually the family parks where I get the most raised eye-brows…by men. Well, at least I can see their eye-brows, perhaps the women are as shocked by my behavior as well. They do stare at me too.
But the men at these indoor parks look at me as if I am pure dirt. One man even had the nerve to walk pass me and mumble that I had no manners and no modesty.
Now what is my behavior exactly? I’m playing games with my children. I try very hard not to play loudly but I do laugh audibly and genuinely have a good time with my children. And I’m completely covered. How is all this ill mannered and lacking modesty?
I was with my children in a fun park. It was an appropriate place for us to be playing. And if I’m not mistaken children who go there want to have fun! And sometimes their mommy does too! I wasn’t excessively loud with them. In fact I often try to quite them down if I feel their voices are too loud especially when we are playing games together.
I’m sorry but just because other mommies want to sit there, vegetate and be mute while their children play beside them doesn’t mean I want to do that as well.
Ok, I get it, it’s culture..women don’t do that here.
But it’s not as if I was doing something haram. I was playing with my children for god’s sake, I wasn’t belly dancing!
Why can’t I join in with my children at these family parks without being judged so harshly by passersby?
What that man said to be really affected me…it’s sad he felt it right to judge me like that without knowing anything about me or my family at all.
Also, I forgot to add that for the few times my husband accompanied my children and I to these fun parks he also gave me the same, “Don’t do that, the people are watching you!” line. I brushed him off a few times but this was only met with a lecture later about respecting the culture here. I honestly do not intend disrespect. I just did not agree that my particular behavior was as shameful as all that.
But I suppose it is unnerving to see other people witness your wife playing silly games with her children, at a fun park no less, where children play games.
Reminds me of an old American song: “Shame, shame, shame…Shame on you!”
@Anebu
“What that man said to be really affected me…it’s sad he felt it right to judge me like that without knowing anything about me or my family at all.”
Why does it matter so much what he thought and felt? You don’t know him, he’s not a friend or relative or anyone important. If he was dead tomorrow, would you shed a tear? Probably not. I’m not picking on you, I’m just puzzled that you allow judgment of totally insignificant people to affect you that way.
I understand Anebu. You are very right NN, but such things touch me too. I know it’s stupid but they do hurt me.
Having others tell one how stupid those unkind people are always helps though.
So keep on doing it!
NN/Aafke…
Of course, you are right in that what he thinks is really unimportant, but it wasn’t just that one man…her post indicated it was the society at large and not only that her husband also was influenced by the people around and worried about what they thought. That sort of pressure to behave in a certain way when for you there is nothing that you are doing wrong can be a real downer. It wasn’t just the one man…anyone can ignore one guy…he was symptomatic of the society at large. When one feels like they stick out like a sore thumb or are being judged for some innocent play with their kids one all of a sudden starts to feel very self conscious…and resentful that they can’t be who they are and have some innocent fun with their kids.
My husband used to change when we went back home to visit family. He was normally easy going and relaxed in the USA. The minute we got off the plane all of a sudden the things that were normal back home and weren’t even noticed (or at least mentioned) became a point of contention and a source of embarrassment because it was outside the norm for the culture. He felt a pressure to conform and therefore I did too. This told me that the society is the predictor of behavior in some ways because if it wasn’t he would not feel such a pressure to “fit in”. Over time he has relaxed a bit and I learned to adapt a bit, but not without losing myself. It isn’t as simple as “not letting it get to you”.
Hello everybody.
I am a first time commentator here, so hello everyone.
When i read the line:
“He told me that you never knew who could be watching, especially of the women who were veiled. ”
That line reminded me of a funny incident.
When i joined my university i had picked up a few bad habits like smoking. And when i came home for summer holidays, i sneaked into a another neighbourhood to enjoy a few puffs.
And i saw a niqabi lady coming by and she was checking me out, as a guy in 20′s i was quiet happy at myself that some girl was checking me out. But thanks to god i did not do anything silly.
Little did i know that niqabi lady was my Aunt!!! She had gone religious when i was in univ. and took on to niqaabs!!!
And very soon my whole family came to know about it and i was royally toasted for my new habits!!! lol
Of course we guys need to be more worried about niqaabis than the ladies too
correction:
It should read “but without losing myself”.
@lada,
Ahlan Wasahlan beak in Saudi and I hope you are enjoying living there.
You mentioned that “Here in Saudi I feel better”.
I would be thankful to you if you answer the questions below.
1- Would you please describe your experience in living in Saudi for two years in terms of culture?
2- Do you feel welcome by Saudi people?
3- Do you feel safe and secured in the Saudi society? 4- How do you describe your attitudes towards Saudi three years ago and do you still have the same perception and attitudes towards Saudi or it has been changed?
5- Do you recommend living in Saudi for other western ladies who want to move with their husbands especially there is no tax system in Saudi?
I would trust your responses and I will take them in high considerations. Please provide candid responses to my questions and it could help me to see my country in the eyes of a lady who experienced living in different cultures from Russia to America and now Saudi.
Ahlan Wasahlan beak again lada in Saudi.
Salam
Oby, you are right, it’s the whole atmosphere. And I believe nobody can live in an antagonistic atmosphere all the time and not feel it.
It is just so sad to read that a woman cannot even be a mother to her children and play with them without being negatively judged for it.
@Medina
First of all, thank you for your interest in my opinion.
To answer your questions:
As I said earlier, Saudi culture somewhat reminds me of Russian. So, I feel “like at home” here. I like people being polite, quiet and private.
We have a few very good friends here, they are incredible people. In fact, one family invited us to dinner at their place and it was separated, my husband and son were in the man’s quarter, I was in the woman’s. There was just a two of us, my husband’s friend’s wife and me. We were able to spend 5 wonderful hours talking and laughing without even knowing each others language. She does not speak English, I do not speak Arabic, but that was not an obstacle for us. We sometimes go out shopping, she likes to take me to the market, where she can bargain for me.
I find majority of Saudi people I met to be very warm and genuinely interested in learning more about me, my culture and US.
I had a choice to move to Bahrain, but after visiting Saudi I made up my mind and absolutely wanted to move to Riyadh. I do feel secure and safe here. Much more than in US, or, especially, Bahrain.
I have made a decision to move to Saudi due to the lack of time my husband could spend in the US with me and my son for the last 6 years. It was quite hard to convince myself to do that, mostly because there is not enough truthful information about the country and the rules. American media succeeded in creating a “very scary picture” of women being tormented and oppressed. Luckily, our Saudi friends came over to California and I was able to ask my questions and receive the answers “from the first hands” Carol’s blog helped tremendously, for which I can not thank her enough… I wish I have made this decision sooner without puzzling myself how the move will affect me, as a woman and my son, as an american kid.
After I came back to California and announced to my friends that we are moving to Saudi, they were shocked. They thought that I was “quickly brainwashed” by “evil talibans” . I did put a huge effort in convincing them and others that Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries are the only places where people LIVE, in terms of comfort , security and finances. I think I have done a good job there. I feel fortunate for this life experience and always remind my husband, that after quite a long time of financial and employment misfortunes in California, God brought us to a place, which is a dream for every Muslim and gave us an opportunity to raise our child in modest society.
Hope, that answers your questions.
Feel free to ask, if anything else interests you.
Lada Quarashi.
Welcome Syed Hussain. Thanks for sharing your experience; it gave me a big smile!
Best Regards, Carol
@lada,
Thank you a lot for your responses. It is highly appreciated. I learn a lot from your responses socially and emotionally. And I feel sorry that the mass media in the U.S reinforce negative stereotypes towards Saudi. But I am happy that you discovered that by yourself. Cultural understanding is very important for everyone to share and to enjoy living in various identities. I noted that the family name, Quarashi, in your signature. Is your husband Saudi? You are free not to answer.
salam
Well, my Saudi often remarks (almost daily it seems) how much he admires the American majority culture’s mindset of minding their own business and letting people live their lives freely. Of course, this hands off attitude has major downsides – 20/20 did a special a while back in which they had people pretending to be in some crisis or another to see how people would react, and overwhelmingly, people usually just passed right on by without so much as a glance. I’ve been amazed when watching videos taken in KSA – one person barely throws a punch, or a car hasn’t stopped rolling yet from an accident and already there’s a huge crowd of people ready to help. In contrast, he and I were out hiking once (in the US) and a storm came in when we were still an hour away from our car. The tornado siren started blaring and it was beginning to pour down rain. As we were running along the road, car after car passed us without even slowing down. A cop even passed us! He was furious and saddened by the lack of humanity, and said if we were in KSA, every single car would have stopped to help. I also felt kind of down about it too… obviously we needed help… but alhamdilulah, the rain held off for the most part til we got to our car (it was a long, muggy run though!).
So, there’s no perfect system – there are good aspects and bad aspects in all of them. The key is to always looking for the positives and appreciating what we have in front of us.
I will also add that even though I’m not in KSA, I’ve got a pretty thorough taste of always being carefully watched from all the hiding he and I do when other Saudis are around. Plus, since I teach Saudis, I have to be very secretive and careful about never revealing anything personal. Even if a Saudi male student approaches me and tries to chat or flirt with me, I still have to be very careful with my reaction because if I seem too accepting, the other Saudis (who are always watching) will interpret that as me being too easy! Plus, if they discover that I’m with a Saudi (or Arab in general), they’ll go to all means necessary to find out who he is, and then unfortunately some of them will waste no time in spreading rumors both here and back in KSA in order to ruin both of our reputations (and his family’s reputation as well). Others with connections may also try to get his scholarship revoked… and why? All for jealousy (hasad). It’s really disgusting how a mental disease so strongly condemned in Islam is so rampant in an ‘Islamic’ country!
KMS…
thanks for your POV. I do agree that sometimes the “hands off” attitude can work not in ones favor. I am not sure that people don’t care, as much as they are so used to NOT minding everyone else’s business that they forget to switch out of that mode when necessary. The cop should have stopped and helped…it would not be unusual that people wouldn’t though. Americans have a fear of hitchhikers I think. I have only let someone into my car three times…the first time I knew them and like you , they were walking in the rain. The second was a woman and her kids who had broken down on the road, and the third was a woman who was walking along the road minding her own business and a man was leaning out of his car obviously harassing her and trying to get her to ride with him. I stopped as I was afraid of her getting into HIS car and then having something awful happen. I felt I had to stop in order to “save” her. He was PISSED OFF which only confirmed to me that his intentions were no good. to be honest, I would never stop for a man unless I knew him well even if he was with a woman. People are too afraid that someone might do something to them or conversely that the ones they pick up might claim that they had been harmed as a scam…
But in other areas where people can help, I think it is worth risking embarrassment or a rude response to help out.
all in all, I would rather live in a society where people let me live my life without trying to stick their nose in my business if only for the fact that that sort of behavior is something one must live with 24/7 for their lives and can get very tedious and wearing and would make me paranoid after awhile. Needing help is an occasional thing and I’ll risk it when I need to. And maybe I am lucky, but I have often been the beneficiary of help from good people.
@kms,
“the other Saudis (who are always watching) will interpret that as me being too easy! Plus, if they discover that I’m with a Saudi (or Arab in general), they’ll go to all means necessary to find out who he is, and then unfortunately some of them will waste no time in spreading rumors both here and back in KSA in order to ruin both of our reputations”
This could be active in the minds of all Saudis but It is motivated by fears that he may become a target of rumors but in reality, it does not happen. No one is going to follow you and make of you his main purpose by spreading rumors. So, these fears are yes among Saudis but it does not happen in real life. It is only fears among us that people may speak about us.
Regarding help, yes Saudi people are very famous of offering help in streets and when people are in need, and I can show you many movies indicating Saudi social cooperation.
here, You can enjoy Saudi bravery in these videos which are not made in Hollywood but taken from real events happened in Saudi Arabia.
These values did not come from nothing, they are inherited generations after generations, so, the one who does not hold these values is considered a nut socially and that is why maybe Saudis fear to lose their reputations. Never forget Saudis when it comes to help and YES you can depend on them at time of need, they will never disapoint you, TRUST me (:
salam
I like this one too, It is rescuing kids of the international school in Riyadh, some of are english speaking kids, maybe americans or british.
sweet kids may God bless them.
Can I make a comparison of offering help between Americans and Saudis?
If carol do not mind, please watch viedo below.
It is in America (but not a hero made in Hollywood this time), I am sorry to show it but just to make you think about it. Maybe you are brainwashed? And why Saudis are defending their values and what is the alternative if they lose their values? Have a look and you may understand Saudi perspectives here in this blog.
salam
@Medina
Thank you for sharing that. I had seen it before. Don’t be sorry to show it. It does happen…sadly there is an element of society..generally poor, undereducated and children that have been raised without guidance or values that take part in stuff like this. It is horrible and it is terrible. It is largely limited to young people, but it does happen. THANKFULLY it is not all kids as many kids have a decent upbringing. And though it might seem like it is on every corner it isn’t. But it happens enough that it is concerning and sad.
Just so you don’t think all of us are heathens who have no caring or moral spine, I’d like to offer my own story of something that happened yesterday to my husband.
On his way home he saw a car in his rear view mirror that was weaving madly back and forth, back and forth across several lanes of traffic. the car was going at a very high rate of speed and my husband moved into the far right lane that exits to get out of the persons way…he thought perhaps he was drunk. As the car passes he sees a man passed out at the wheel and a woman leaning over trying to control the wheel and not having much success. By this time my husband had exited to get out of the way and was no longer on the highway. Seconds later the car crashes into a guardrail, spins around a time or two and comes to a stop. From above the highway which he is not able to reenter now to go back, he can see people pulling off the road to help the people in the car. He himself called emergency. I don’t know if they survived, but people stopped to help. Several months back my daughter and I were driving on the highway when off in the distance I see what appears to be a body flying through the air. As I get closer I realize it was a guy on a motorcycle that had flipped his bike and gone skidding on the pavement down the center of the highway. Myself and about 8 others stopped got out and aided this man. One person stopped all traffic coming at this guy at 80 miles an hour by standing in the middle of the highway and waving their arms frantically…a few others blocked the road with their car. So there are good Samaritans.
The people you showed are sadly, poor, uneducated and have no morals or sense of right or wrong and were raised abusively most likely. It is awful but yes they do exist. AND they will be the ones most likely in low paying jobs or living on the welfare system of the country and unmarried and pregnant…
@oby,
but i think the other aspect is the way in which none of the security guards intervene to stop what’s going on. i know this is well documented phenomenon but it never fails to amaze me.
It is an interesting psychological phenomenon that people will not help when in a large group, like in cities. There are several reasons for that, it is called ”bystander syndrome” somebody else mentioned that on this blog once and I looked it up, very interesting. You can easily get around this psychological effect by pointing at somebody and ask them personally for help, in that case people will help immediately, and the bystander effect then swings into your advantage because everybody starts to help.
Now in small communities the bystander effect is much less if existant at all.
And people help or refrain from helping everywhere. Same in America, same in Saudi Arabia.
Yes people waded through a few inches of water to help other people during the floods in KSA. But Saudis also let girls die in a burning school because they were not wearing abaya, people stood by, did nothing and the girls died.
We read about women being pelted with huge rocks at the entrance of a mall in Riyad and Saudis stood by and did nothing to help them, even as they lied bleeding on the ground.
This phenomenon happens everywhere, whether in KSA or America or wherever else.
So let’s stop this argument. Sometimes people stand up and help each other and sometimes they don’t, happens all over the world.
Medina you are doing just selective picking to make your point. It’s a fallacy argument. You pick some stories from America where people did not help others, and you pick stories from KSA where people do help each other. It is using a fallacy to make your point and it is a cheating way of making an argument.
People are not really that much different all over the world.
I think this is an unprofitable argument, so please let’s stop it.
We just did a good thing here on bedu, some of us came together, gave what our budget allowed and we are going to make Bedu happy. That’s all of us, from all over the world.
@aafk,
“Medina you are doing just selective picking to make your point. ….and you pick stories from KSA where people do help each other. It is using a fallacy to make your point and it is a cheating way of making an argument.”
“Saudis also let girls die in a burning school because they were not wearing abaya, people stood by, did nothing and the girls died.”
I like it when you condemn yourself. I know you dislike seeing good deeds done by Saudi because it contradicts with your beliefs and attitudes towards the Saudi people. So I do not blame you because it is something psychologically you can not overcome and I am not surprised that you condemn yourself indirectly just to show the opposite. And I do not think you will endanger your life or your properties to save others or donate to strangers as Saudis do. This is the point that you did your best intentionally to miss here but whatever you say, actions speak louder thank words.
salam
When we were there i never never held F’s hand etc., it was something int he air theat discouraged it
i kept my distance and that was that. i think i reacted to the environment, he was ok, since we weren’t going to be there permanently adn anyway his family didn’t accept me in so it wasn’t fear of a bad name that kept me away . I thnk it would have been odd if i wanted to walk hand in hand with F there. no one did and it would draw attention .. it’s almost like men and women exist on diff planes there..living parallel lives..
Anyway with 2 kids F spent his walking days carrying my daughter and i monitored the wild son.
But it was tiring for F to deal with who thought what and how he was judged, it does hurt men when their family judges their wives and kids and it puts an unfair pressure onthem to conform. I think the time we were there was whne we discussed our issues the most, people and their perceptions affect us, even though we may not want it to. I sometimes feel the same way when in India . conforming is a big deal. goes as far as visiting relatives and i sometimes wonder, if you’re retired ,healthy and doing nothing why would you not visit the visitors and spend time with their kids, does it matter that theyounger one must visit the elsers? I’ve decided when i retire and move to india i will be paying any and all young nieces/nephews regular visits.. I’ll even cook and take snacks to them…
Medina, I made the argument that you are selective in your argument you make out that Saudis are more heroic than other people, and that Americans are not into helping other people. I told you you are using a fallacy to make your point.
I made the point that good and bad happens everywhere. people are charitable everywhere.
What is your point? You don’t make a point.
You have clearly not googled it, but the Dutch government spends many billion dollars a year to foreign help. That is without the many millions given again by the citizens. And we are a very small country. Also we immediately send doctors and medical care and rescue dogs, and food and shelter to all places where disasters happen.
All countries in the world have people who are willing to donate and help others.
Look Medina, My argument is, there are heroes in all places, all over the world. There are people standing by while others are in need all over the world as well.
You are selective, so using a fallacy, when making your argument. you pick out those stories of Americans standing by, while ignoring the ones where Americans do heroic deeds.
Conversely, you choose those stories where Saudis are heroic, while ignoring the ones where they are standing by.
There are heroic people in Saudi Arabia, absolutely, we made a list of some of them last year in a post. There are heroes in America.
You gave the example where Americans stood by in Seattle , I gave the example where Saudis let the girls be burned to death in the school in Mecca.
People are much the same everywhere on the planet. They behave much the same everywhere on the planet.
You do not answer my argument, instead you make a personal attack on me which is another fallacy.
Check this link:
http://www.nptrust.org/philanthropy/philanthropy_stats.asp
And stop making these personal attacks just because you don’t have a real argument to stand on.
“You can easily get around this psychological effect by pointing at somebody and ask them personally for help, in that case people will help immediately, and the bystander effect then swings into your advantage because everybody starts to help.”
interesting, thank you for this information.
Lada, its nice to hear a wonderful story about life in Saudi…but you and others on here must understand ONE thing about living in the middle east…it makes a huge difference as to WHOM you are married to and his mindset concerning women, culture etc. You got a good man so your life experience living with him there is good…every woman should be so fortunate.
Medina…
“And I do not think you will endanger your life or your properties to save others or donate to strangers as Saudis do.”
that is not really fair of you to say to Aafke…especially when she offered to give of her talent and time to paint a picture for anyone who donated $50.00 for carol’s cats.
Also, it is well known that Americans (I am not sure about Europeans) are generous in their donations when it comes to natural disasters. I am not talking about the government or businesses. I am talking about the people who are the backbone of the country. the average person who gives from the heart.
an example: For Haiti Relief which is one disaster and not the most money ever collected either for a disaster.
Donations from Americans for earthquake relief in Haiti have surpassed $1 billion, with about one-third going to the American Red Cross, the Center Advertisement on Philanthropy at Indiana University said Friday. Other major recipients include Catholic Relief Services, the U.S. Fund for UNICEF and the U.S. wing of Doctors Without Borders, according to a separate report by the Chronicle for Philanthropy.
An analysis of U.N. data shows that private donations make up the bulk of the total, accounting for more than $980 million of what has already been delivered or that donors have promised.
Don’t judge fully until you have all the info…
@Aafke…
Ooops…you beat me to it. I see you posted a link I was going to. Thanks!
It is hard to be with your spouse whom you love and not to be able to touch and hug and kiss, always keep apart.
I think although it is the culture in saudi, most saudi want to be less observed and live more relaxed.
@ coolred38, you are so right. it is a good man which makes life good anywhere, but in saudia it is essential and primary.
@Aafk,
I did not mean to attack you personally. Do not get me wrong plz, I was just explaining how your argument is based psychologically, is it wrong to explain it? If you take it personally, I can reassure you that it was not my intention. Dear, you undermined the human efforts that Saudis showed in these movies and these values are rooted socially for along time. Why to undermine it? We know already that there are heroes everywhere but we can not undermine that there is a negative stereotype here towards Saudis. Why do you ignore this fact? Why you went against the good picture that these Saudis drew in the above movies? Does it bother you if I showed something that could change these negative stereotypes towards Saudis by making a little comparison of a country where it is considered at the top for providing human rights? America does not need my testimony to give them credit. They already have it but why your post was not a positive addition to change this negative stereotype here towards Saudis? Saudis guys’ efforts should be appreciated not undermined and that is why I explained to you how your argument is based psychologically but I will excuse you because you have never been to Saudi but believe me and trust me in Saudi, when you expose to a situation in a street, people will never ever leave you out. They will come and offer you a hand of help immediately. I am talking about the immediate help that you will receive from people at time of need as shown in videos which is rarely offered in other countries as some commentators showed some examples here. I know that Netherlands is doing well for humanitarian projects as Saudi government and America also do. I know that every governments has humanitarian project generally especially countries that are capable financially to offer helps and people also donate for humanitarian projects but my point is about people who endanger their life or their properties for helping others. This is something very different. And Saudis as it is shown in the videos above, they endangered their lives and their cars just to offer help. Please think about it and do not put your predispositions towards Saudis first. I know it is hard sometimes psychologically to see the good things about others if you have negative attitudes or beliefs or stereotypes towards a specific group. This is a psychological premise and it is not personal. I hope you get what I mean.
@oby,
aafk made her offer because of carol so it is still personally oriented. Aafk is not my point of argument; please see the context to get the point very well. The point is to endanger your life to offer immediate help for others. I do not know why people leave the head and caught the tail in their arguments. Oby, watch the videos again and plz see the difference. And I explained to aafk, I did not deny that thee are people or governments who donate to offers help. Good people are existed everywhere but the values that make people ready to sacrifice themselves for offering immediate help to others are not reinforced everywhere.
@coolred, save the woman
You have my voice. It is individual matters not as people try to describe it here as collective matters when it comes to Saudis and they put them all in one basket.
salam
@Medina…
I DO get the point. Yes I understand that it is jumping in to help another without a great thought to your own safety…I gave you an example of how I and other people, without thought of our own safety, jumping into the middle of a highway where we could have gotten hit by cars going at 80 miles an hour. Thank goodness people had the presence of mind to stop traffic because I didn’t. I was on the ground with the man focused on his injuries and didn’t even think about the cars that would be coming on us.
The video you show while true is not for the majority of people. These are young kids, raised in poverty, most without a father present in their lives, some withut a mother and being raised by grandparents most likely a grandmother, perhaps parents addled by drugs…for them the only way to live is an aggressive, attacking manner. That is how they were raised…in a state of constant emergency with parents who had little coping skills who then beat up on the kids and passed it on…or else they were raised NOT to take actions for their consequences. OR they were not raised at all because the parents didn’t watch what the kids did and the kids learned life on the streets and had no guidance. To these kids jail is no big deal because they almost assuredly have a close family member/friend that has been in jail. It is sad and caused by many things…one of them is racism…that is why I am so against Abdul’s argument about Hindus…racism is a terrible thing. In his case it is even worse..religious discrimination of an entire people just based on their religion…not even people who are poor who do have a tendency to live a difficult life and therefore behave in a undignified manner as you have shown in this video.
And yes there is such a thing as a crowd mentality…people almost become transfixed not sure of what to do. But time and time again it has been shown if one jumps in others will too. Maybe because in KSA everyone minds everyone else’s business and it is a “collective” mentality people MIGHT jump in a bit quicker whereas those used to minding their own business might take a bit longer. Also, in the video you showed it was a PACK of ten kids working in unison as one. would one person in KSA be willing as a lone person especially a female (as was the case here) jump in with one against ten??? Might a person think once or twice about a situation that will almost assuredly lead to no good result for them and perhaps his death? You said “lot’s of people will stop to help” and therein perhaps is the answer…”LOT’S of people acting as a unit to help a few”. As far as the guards in the video are concerned, they are hired from the same socioeconomic group as these kids in the video and in terms of mentality are only slightly better. They are nothing more than bodies collecting paychecks. They are almost useless because they have been raised similarly.
Medina, but you are very personal and saying afterwards that you aren’t doesn’t change the fact.
As you cannot know what my personal expenses in charity are, nor my personal involvement in helping others, whether known to me or not, I can only regard you attempt at denigrating these as a deplorable attempt to insult me, hurt my feelings, and/or tarnish my reputation.
And I consider it a very low attempt.
I have been vocal enough on this blog when it comes to praising those who deserve to be praised never stinting either when they happened to be Saudi, so your impression is wholly wrong and to keep it positive I will again contribute it to ignorance.
By putting forward my argument that good and bad people exist in about equal numbers all around the world I am not undermining any human efforts from anybody from any country.
The only thing I am undermining is your fallacious assumption that Saudi Arabians are better and Americans are worse people based on your cherry-picking of information.
And I am wondering about your incomprehensible dislike for admitting that good and bad exists about equally all over the world.
If you were to understand my argument that good and bad people are distributed about equally globally, then you would understand that I, in consequence, could never hold to the belief that there are no heroic and generous people in Saudi Arabia.
QED.
@oby,
My point is the immediate help, the immediate help, the immediate help, the immediate help. I am not for those teenagers how they were raised and what they were doing because such accidents happen everyday but I am for the immediate help. I am for the people around them, especially the police who did not even interfere to stop that fight.
@aafk,
I recommend that you read my post above again for a second time because your reply is off most of the points that I addressed to you. What you posted partially generates your stereotypes. I told you that “I did not mean to attack you personally. Do not get me wrong plz, I was just explaining how your argument is based psychologically, is it wrong to explain it?”
But you still believe it is personal. It is up to you but I clarified that to you for to not misunderstand me and I explained that the psychological premise when someone has a negative attitudes, beliefs, stereotypes towards a specific group, it is going to affect his/her opinions and to some extent behaviors. Do you have negative stereotypes and attitude towards Saudi? I think your posts in this blog stated that well, so this is not my personal opinion; this is a psychological tendency. I also excused you but you take it for granted.
Regarding the cherry-picking of information hehehe, I think you are very professional in that, you can read my posts above to admit that even if you dislike it, but it is still your choice.
All the other points I raised to you have been missed, instead you come up with false accusations never mentioned in my posts.
So, I ask you humbly to read my post again and to address the points that I raised and plz stop victimizing yourself because it could be perceived as a fallacious attempt too. Aafk, Saudis have feelings too and they can get hurt too, you are not alone in this world and to avoid hurting your feelings, I wish you also consider others feelings too. And I think I explained that well in other post, as I told you that I believe in physics, especially Newton’s laws even though such laws do not apply one me because I am a candle who burns itself to light road for others even if they get astray from the right track or mislead by false information or negative stereotypes.
P.S. I do not mind you have negative stereotypes towards Saudi but I am posting here to help you to understand things as Saudis understand it. You have no right to judge us or call us names just because we have different opinions or live in different culture as much as I do not have the right to judge you or call you names just because you have different opinions or live in different culture. I hope things are very clear now. You and your country and your culture have my respect and nothing here is personal.
QED
salam
corrected as
“I think your posts in this blog stated that well, so this is a psychological tendency you have towards saudis. I also excused you but you take it for granted.”
@Madina,
“Why you went against the good picture that these Saudis drew in the above movies? Does it bother you if I showed something that could change these negative stereotypes towards Saudis by making a little comparison of a country where it is considered at the top for providing human rights?”
I think you’re confusing people’s positions. They are not arguing against you saying “Saudi’s can be heroic.” They are arguing against you because you expanded on that by saying Saudi’s are more heroic than others, based on few youtube examples. Additionally, you also indicated that Americans in general will watch someone in need and do nothing, all based on one example.
You even went further than that in the following comments and said to her and generalized that westerners will not sacrifice property or life to help others. All of that was not supported (actually it is false, for example there are statistics proving without any shadow of a doubt that Americans on average give more than Saudi’s to charities) All you did is go into circular arguments by accusing any one that points the flaws in your logic as predisposed to argue against Saudi’s looking good.
Aafke actually pointed out some simple fallacious arguments you made. The things she pointed out to you are really basic logic fallacies that any debating beginner should know. I hope you take time and study a little bit on the topic of logic, so you do not continue writing long messages that do not present sound arguments.
Medina, I have no idea what you are talking about.
You can take logical fallacies only so far.
Your last comment is written as a response to comments I never made. If you want to use the straw-man argument as the logical fallacy of your choice, you can’t completely make up a comment I was supposed to have written, it should at least have some small relation to my actual words..
thanks MoQ
@MoQ,
“I think you’re confusing people’s positions. They are not arguing against you saying “Saudi’s can be heroic.”
Quote that I said that Saudis are heroic than Americans.
“They are arguing against you because you expanded on that by saying Saudi’s are more heroic than others, based on few youtube examples”
Thank you for the clarification but sorry your clarification is misleading too because it is based on false conclusion. I recommend that your read again my posts.
“you also indicated that Americans in general will watch someone in need and do nothing, all based on one example.”
I recommend that you read KMS posts to know falsify your accusation.
“You even went further than that in the following comments and said to her and generalized that westerners will not sacrifice property or life to help others. All of that was not supported (actually it is false, for example there are statistics proving without any shadow of a doubt that Americans on average give more than Saudi’s to charities”
Giving charities do not mean that it endangers your life and your properties, so your argument again is based in false conclusion and is misleading.
“All you did is go into circular arguments by accusing any one that points the flaws in your logic as predisposed to argue against Saudi’s looking good”
That is because you did not even get the whole point of the argument. I recommed that read the my posts again.
“Aafke actually pointed out some simple fallacious arguments you made. The things she pointed out to you are really basic logic fallacies that any debating beginner should know.”
This is also based on false conclusion you came up with. Read my posts again.
“I hope you take time and study a little bit on the topic of logic, so you do not continue writing long messages that do not present sound arguments”
I hope that you put your “psychological tendency” that you showed up now aside and read from the beginning because re-reading practice is strongly recommended for your case.
salam
@aafk,
I am done with this argument but to make it clear for you. I will put in into points:
1- Showing Saudi movies do not mean that Saudi are heroic than Americans.
2- I asked carol for permission to post it and said sorry to show that movie and I clarified my purpose of posing that movie. So, it is not to judge Americans but to make people rethink about their negative stereotypes about Saudis. You can reread my previous post.
3- It is true that Saudis sacrificed their lives and their properties for immediate help. This is my point. Movies speak louder than words. Comparing that with charities given by governments is misleading comparison and invalid.
4- So, I do not find justification for your conclusions in all your posts except that you were motivated by your psychological tendency against Saudis.
For more understanding, I strongly recommend that you read my posts from the start and put your psychological tendency aside to get my points well. I am not for false accusations here and ganging.
I am done with this argument.
Salam
Ok,
I really don’t mean to add fuel to the fire. The arguement that Medina makes is that Saudi’s are very good at coming to the immediate assistance to others. I can attest to that from personal experience, as my Saudi husband does not blink an eye to help one in immediate need. However, how do you explain the attacks on the western females outside of the Kingdom mall that was highlighted recently on this blog? Why do you suppose no one, not even the security guards came to their aid?
Medina…
maybe you didn’t MEAN to come across as MoQ said…but in fact, his points are all exactly what I understood you to mean. Whatever your intentions were it came across or was understood to mean that Saudis are braver and have a more heroic nature because they acted faster (or at all).
Perhaps you were arguing to say that Saudis were heroic and not to judge them as not wanting to help, but by adding that one video of the stupid guards not helping the girl in America it SEEMED as if you were saying that Americans won’t help in a crunch situation even if that puts them in danger…we are trying to tell you that is not the case. I have never been to Saudi so I can’t say I have seen it in action and I have no doubt that it is true that Saudis will help, But other people(not just Americans) will help too. Perhaps it is a difference in culture in the precise timing of it. Either way it did seem as if you were saying Saudis were better at being there in a time of need.
@madina,
“Quote that I said that Saudis are heroic than Americans.”
Your comment on August 2, 2010 at 5:53, was specifically aimed at showing Americans as having no values when it comes to helping others. Anyone that reads that comes to that conclusion. The remaining arguments had the same tone.
Your issue is trying to make Saudi’s look good at the expense of saying others are bad. I think if you said “here are some heroic acts of Saudis”, everyone would have agreed with you with no arguments. You still do not get this point no matter how many times it is explained to you. I know thousands of Saudis and Americans and there is no difference, between them when it comes to this topic.
“I recommend that your read again my posts.”
I read your posts before my first reply and I only replied to you because they sounded arrogant and dismissive of others. I even tried very hard to weed through all the circular logic and shifting of positions you had. Telling people to repeat reading your statements is hardly a response. Why don’t you state your position clearly, if you think we misunderstand it.
“recommend that you read KMS posts to know falsify your accusation.”
I did. So with that we have 2 examples where someone did not get help in America. You generalized that into a standard of behavior. This will be the same as if I took the 2 examples Aafke provided (kids burning in the building and women hit by rocks) and generalized that as the standard of how Saudi’s behave. This type of logic is selective and you keep repeating it.
“That is because you did not even get the whole point of the argument.”
Hmm, Actually I read though 5 posts of yours. All of them are long and provide conclusions of anecdotal stories. Further they go in circles with shifting goal posts. May be you should consider giving a try to actually stating a clear position. Do you actually think that heroism and helping others is a trait that Saudis have an superiority on versus the rest of the world, more specifically Americans? Also, do you think Americans have a careless attitude about helping others? This is your chance to state your position clearly, so we do not misinterpret it. And it will be nice if you can support your position with something stronger than anecdotal stories and youtube videos.
For your information, my position is that people across both cultures are very similar in this regard. There are heroes and there are people that will not lift a finger to help others. In general I find people will help more often than not. There are no clear statistics in regards of people risking their lives to save others as these are rare situations. However, philanthropy is something that can be supported by statistics. The average US family gives over $1600 in charity donations. I know Saudis are generous people so I am willing to accept that they give at a similar level even without statistics
- “I hope that you put your “psychological tendency” that you showed up now aside”
You keep repeating this argument to everyone that disagrees with you. This is why I think you need a lesson in logic. In logic A personal attack in a debate is a known fallacy. All it says is you cannot make your argument, so you substitute that with attacking others.
There seems to be a lot of arguing going on here, but at the same time, I think everyone has at least some valid points. I have to agree with Kristine saying that I never never been to Saudi Arabia, but the Saudis I know seem to genuinely want to help others – whether they’re friends or not. Now whether this means that all Saudis seek to help in a crisis, I don’t know. People being what they are I would tend to believe that reactions will differ based both on personality and culture, and that no group conforms to any one idea or behavior 100% of the time. I would like to think that one of the perks of being “watched” all the time is that at least someone will be there to help when I need it, but I have heard several stories from similar “watching” cultures where those in trouble may actually be rejected and/or left to fend for themselves because they no longer fit in or because they are more valuable to the group if they’re no longer part of it. I would be curious to find out how often (or rare) this reaction is in Saudi in conjunction with the “Good Samaritan” reflex.
On another note (and just in case there was any confusion), there are in fact many instances in which Americans have gone out of their way to help someone in need.
One man spent a good deal of his own time and money helping out Katrina victims:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1098419
Another Good Samaritan helped out in a car accident:
http://www.kvue.com/news/Good-Samaritans-help-pull-a-man-out-of-a-burning-pick-up-99669614.html
And another went to rescue a family when they’re house caught fire:
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1108/566570.html
Unfortunately, these days it is getting more and more dangerous to be a Good Samaritan in America. The law and lawyers make it a lot more difficult to help others without being persecuted oneself. People (like in the links below) have found themselves sued or even prosecuted after the fact for not rendering perfect aid (and some even for supposedly causing the incident though they arrived after the fact). Still others have found themselves killed while trying to help or even specifically targeted by criminals with false pleas for aid. Where I live it is actually illegal to hitchhike or to pick up hitchhikers. Overall, I can understand why Americans may be getting a bad reputation when it comes to helping others. It seems to be getting more and more dangerous and from personal experience I can tell you that youth today are getting mixed messages: be a good person and help your fellows when they’re in need, but don’t talk to strangers or try to offer assistance because you may be the one paying for it. I would definitely support a culture where helping out doesn’t always come back to bite you, but at the same time, I don’t think it’s possible to make sweeping generalizations without examining the influences and exceptions. I hope this proves productive to the discussion.
Links:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/3853395/Good-Samaritan-can-be-sued-after-pulling-friend-from-car-wreckage.html
http://www.kiiitv.com/news/local/Good-Samaritan-Shot-After-Helping-Out–98974269.html
http://www.newschannel9.com/news/county-978074-victim-area.html
Sorry for the long post – I didn’t realize I had so much to say!!
“The law and lawyers make it a lot more difficult to help others without being persecuted oneself.”
I do agree with you…it is sad.
Many years ago my father stopped to help a woman in need. She was having a heart attack and was lying semiconscious on the floor. He stopped and did CPR on her and stayed with her until the medics got there. The woman survived and got well but decided to sue my father for breaking her ribs. It was not a bad fracture, but a fracture nonetheless due to his giving her CPR compressions. (It does happen and is not unusual.) Anyway, nothing ever came of it and he ultimately was not held liable, but can you imagine? OK he broke a couple of ribs but if he had not been there to help her and call the medics she would be DEAD. Would she rather that than a few broken ribs??? It really put him off of helping people. He did help others over the years but that sense of ingratitude that that woman showed stayed with him over the years and even though he helped other people, it was always in back of his mind.
It is stupid that one can be sued for trying to offer aid to someone in distress. People can become wary. But that doesn’t mean that they are any less compassionate.
oby –
Wow, that’s incredible! In a bad way. I’m sorry your father had to deal with that after honestly trying to help someone. Actually, it kind of reminds me of stories I have heard about off-duty medical personnel being told NOT to interfere if there is an emergency because they are 100% liable for anything that goes wrong if they do and can be arrested and/or their licenses revoked if severe enough. I’m actually studying to be a teacher and the things I am learning in my program are making me less and less optimistic about the help I can provide my students – there are so many things I can do wrong, even when I’m trying to do right, and so many ways I can get my butt in legal trouble. I guess the moral here is just to do your best but to be careful and not to necessarily judge others who do not feel able to take the risk. It’s sad, but what can you do?
I feel that Americans are deeply concernded about fellow Americans and they help in whatever way they can. I can’t say about immediate help but help in general, yes they do help each other. They seem to me to be very caring about each other.
Saudis help too and care for each other. I think it is in the nature of people to help irrespective of their countries.
However I think for immediate help, it may matter WHO the person needing help is. I noticed that if an Asian is lying on the road, no Arab will go to his side to ask him if there is something wrong. If there is a white person in the same situation, they will ask if he needs help. If its an Arab on lying on the road, yes for sure they will help.
And I think this is the same in American or in the West.
I am only saying what I see and saw but I have not seen the situation in the West but I do beleive it is the same there.
@MoQ,
“Quote that I said that Saudis are heroic than Americans.”
“Your comment on August 2, 2010 at 5:53, was specifically aimed at showing Americans as having no values when it comes to helping others. Anyone that reads that comes to that conclusion.”
1-I asked you to “quote” not to make a reference. There is a big difference between quotation and referencing. Of course you can not “quote” any of my words that state literally that I generalize that movie to all Americans because it is not existed at all. So, the conclusion that you made is your understanding but NOT my words and not my message. And I am not responsible for your oriented conclusion. So, the one who is generalizing and interpreting the movie is YOU against all Americans not me.
Here is my comment on the video that I posted in above.
“Can I make a comparison of offering help between Americans and Saudis?
If carol do not mind, please watch video below.
It is in America (but not a hero made in Hollywood this time), I am sorry to show it but just to make you think about it. Maybe you are brainwashed? And why Saudis are defending their values and what is the alternative if they lose their values? Have a look and you may understand Saudi perspectives here in this blog”
These are my words. It does not show by any means what (MoQ, …) concluded that “Americans as having no values when it comes to helping others”. It is directed to people to rethink about the negative stereotypes they hold against all Saudis. It is a call for people to think that Saudis are not bad. It is a call to make people even thinks that bad things also happen in America although it is a very modern country. This is the message of the video and it is not generalization to all Americans. Any conclusion rather than this is invalid and it only represents the one who conclude it.
2-“I read your posts before my first reply and I only replied to you because they sounded arrogant and dismissive of others”.
I read once this English idiom, “the pot calling the kettle black”
3-“So with that we have 2 examples where someone did not get help in America. You generalized that into a standard of behavior.”
Read again my statement no 1 because this is YOUR conclusion not my words.
4-“Actually I read though 5 posts of yours. All of them are long and provide conclusions of anecdotal stories.”
Is it too long for you to read it? Do not be lazy re-read again because you came up with the same conclusion.
5-“Do you actually think that heroism and helping others is a trait that Saudis have an superiority on versus the rest of the world, more specifically Americans?”
Invalid question based on false conclusion.
6-“This is your chance to state your position clearly, so we do not misinterpret it.”
Read statement no 1, it is not long this time.
7-“And it will be nice if you can support your position with something stronger than anecdotal stories and youtube videos.”
These videos are real and not fiction, I do not know any reliable proof than video and souns.
8-“There are no clear statistics in regards of people risking their lives to save others as these are rare situations.”
These are not rare occasions. It is rooted and documented in Saudi history and in Saudi heritage. These videos also taken from different parts of Saudi Arabia, videos taken in the following regions: Jizan (south of Saudi Arabia, Riyadh (centre of Saudi Arabia), Hael (north of Saudi Arabia, Jeddah (west of Saudi Arabia). So according to research methodology and Statistics, these videos are considered a cross sectional representative sample of the whole Saudi populations. So, it is reliable and valid results here. And your proposition is rejected theoretically and statically.
9-“This is why I think you need a lesson in logic. In logic A personal attack in a debate is a known fallacy.”
There is a Saudi saying (رمتني بدائها وانسلت ( , (The pot calling the kettle black). So, here you condemn yourself and you judge yourself, I quote your words directed to me as follows:
“The things she pointed out to you are really basic logic fallacies that any debating beginner should know. I hope you take time and study a little bit on the topic of logic,”
“I read your posts before my first reply and I only replied to you because they sounded arrogant and dismissive of others”
Derogatory remarks made by you and directed to me and it is still YOUR words. Who is attacking personally now? candid readers can tell.
For more clarifications,
As you can see I explained my words that I quoted in statement no 1. They (aafk and MoQ) accused me of the following:
1-Generalizing the movie to all Americans.
As you can see in my words quoted above, this accusation is falsified. And there is no word in my quotation above indicated literally or by any means that I generalize that movie to all Americans.
2-Accusing Americans that they do not offer any donations.
As you can see also in the quotation above that I did not mention by any means the word donation. And I did not speak at all about that Americans do not offer help and I stated above in other post that “America does not need my testimony to give them credit. They already have it”.
3-Attacking them personally,
as you can see above who is attacking the other personally.
I think now it is very clear who is generalizing that content of that video to all Americans and accusing them that they do not donate and they have no values for offering help to others.
The last point that I want to raise is when I mentioned to aafk that her posts above are motivated by her psychological tendency against Saudis. I stated that aafk has negative beliefs, negative attitudes and negative perceptions towards Saudi and Saudi culture. I explained that her negative stereotypes made her dislike seeing any good things made by Saudis even though I excused her.
I will quote now her words today just to prove to you that what I said about her negative psychological tendency is true and not accusation as she claimed.
“”“To me Saudi Arabia is a very scary place. Very very scary. for all women. Always having to live under the whims of not one dictator, but the whole half of the population are dictators over you with absolute power, with the whole police, government and ”justice” system at their side, with even the compulsory religion at their side. It’s a nightmare.””” (aafk) http://americanbedu.com/2010/07/25/saudi-arabia-iman-shares-her-experience/#comment-46816
The above quote is her beliefs, her attitudes and her prejudice towards Saudi Arabia and Saudi people that she stated today. You can find her post in the link above.
So, I do not think that when someone has such amount of hate towards any specific group will be happy to see something good done by the memebers of that group.
In sum, the quote above explained why they directed their false accusations to me. It is because I lit a candle in a darkness here which is perceived as a challenge and threat to the prejudice against Saudis. So, I leave it for you readers to have your say.
This my last post in this argument. I just came to comment on it to make people aware about these facts I stated now because some.
@oby,
Read my post above plz.
@
Kristine
I have no idea what you are speaking about.
Salam
@Medina,
The post was on May 23, 2010. I don’t know how to link it.
@Medina,
So much for stating your position clearly. You wrote pages and there is no clear position. I asked 2 questions that are very simple. They could have been answered with Yes or No each. What we get back is 2 pages of the same circular stuff.
Let me repeat them again. Try to answer directly this time and not go over the history of your old unclear answers:
“Do you actually think that heroism and helping others is a trait that Saudis have an superiority on versus the rest of the world, more specifically Americans? Also, do you think Americans have a careless attitude about helping others? ”
Regarding #1, I referenced your writing which a number for us understood in the same way. Now you have 2 choices: 1) either it is due to unclear writing that did not present your intent, or 2) your intent was understood well by me and the others. You have a chance to correct all of that with 2 simple answers that are clear like I said above.
Regarding #2, Not too long to read in 3 minutes, but rather boring and circular. Not the best of readings. You write so much and say very little. Sorry you asked so I have to give you an honest answer.
Regarding #3, Yes we reread those words and your intent is clear. At least 3 of us got the same intent.I gave 2 reasons above pick one.
Regarding #4, A personal attack is totally different that focusing on your arguments. I have directly rebutted your argument and did not come to conclusions that you some how have psychological predisposition. You use that psychological argument against anyone that disagree with you, you do not focus on their arguments. Again you need to upgrade your skills in understanding rules of fair debate to understand the difference between focusing on an argument vs focusing on a person. I really hope you look stuff like that up. It will help you be more effective in debates like this and have a focus where you do not end up in these circular arguments that go on for days.
Regarding #5, You claim we misinterpreted you, but when asked specific easy questions to clarify any understanding your call them invalid. The only reason they were asked is to clarify, if we had invalid conclusions about your comments and give you an opportunity to clarify. I guess you are exercising your right to be be vague and seem to have shifting positions to others!!!
Regarding your videos as strong evidence, 4 examples do not make a study in social behavior and cannot be used to create broad conclusions. I do not disagree with you about Saudi’s being helpful. I am saying claiming that they are better than others is not supported with such weak evidence.
Regarding Aafke comment, I think any western woman can come to a conclusion that Saudi is a bad place for free women. Most of the world have the same conclusion on the same topic, I suggest you should look into why so many people have the same idea about Saudi, rather than always throwing it at prejudices. There is plenty of evidence that Saudi laws are the most restrictive to women freedoms in the world. You are not addressing the issues she raised in the other thread, which are specific and supported by further specifics about the laws of the country (ex. mahram system.) What you did is use another thread to state whatever personal conclusions you came up with about her. I did not see in any of her writing anything that says she hates Saudi’s, she argued against the laws of teh country which are oppressive to women. Why don’t try to address her points on that thread instead of being judgmental.
Again, I hope this time you can answer directly. Those are simple questions and will clarify any misinterpretations. Look for them above at the start of this write-up.
Salam.
I have some examples, personal and shared by others about stopping to help:
1. I was in India and while enroute to my residence on a busy street, an old man had been hit by a car. He was in the intersection, bleeding, unable to rise and actually looked to be unconscious. All the traffic was driving around him. Noone was stopping. I asked my driver to stop so we could collect the man and take him to a hospital. My driver said he would take me home first and then come back to see if the man were still there. He said if I were present then I would be labeled as the responsible one who had put him in such a condition and be held liable and would likely have a big headache to deal with being a foreigner and foreign diplomat at that.
2. Friends of mine (American) were tourists in New York. They were getting ready to enter a store when they were knocked down by a man who ran out of the store. Another and older man ran out next yelling “stop him, I’ve been robbed.” My friends got up and took chase. The man kept yelling out for help and to stop the running man that he had been robbed. People looked but kept going. Finally the old man got close enough he literally took a fleeing leap and brought the robber down. The old man held on to his (the robber’s) feet and yelling for help. People stopped and just looked. Noone offered to help. By the time my friends were close enough to try and help. the robber freed himself from the old man’s grip and ran off again.
I was in New York in a taxi driven by a Pakistani or Indian who did not speak very good English. I was getting the feeling that we were lost and suddenly while drving on the freeway at 70 miles an hour the taxi driver ran another car off of the road and got out and asked the person for directions!! OMG I thought we were going to be killed! Can you believe that the people that he ran off the road actually gave him proper directions?!! I thought for sure he was going to get punched out! I felt like punching him myself!
Another time when I was in NY with my husband and kids we were in Central Station for the first time and were looking at a map posted on the wall to see where we should head off to. People were busting about busy busy busy rush hour or something and a woman who had been walking briskly stopped and asked if we needed help. That same thing happened to us at least 2 other times in different areas of NYC. I returned home from that trip with a very good impression of New Yorkers.
When you see someone in distress the initial reaction of a normal human being would be to offer assistance. However, there are some cases when cultural, religious or other restrains prevent from that. I think, it is very much true for Saudi Arabia, the episode where western women were attacked outside the Kingdom Mall showed that. If you read the post related to that you can see the reasons behind that. In USA people are afraid of being dragged into law suit, so there goes the hesitance to help someone who is in need of real help. I am not talking about giving directions or offering 25c for the pay phone. Americans prefer to help anonymously, it protect their privacy, which they value so much. Also,there are cases, when people do not want help, and they say that clearly. Naturally, if you want help, you need to ask for it, because people nowadays are confused, wether you are in real need or just trying to see how you can manage on your own.
I agree Lada…In Saudi there are cultural prohibitions which come into play and especially if a woman is in distress. If a Saudi woman’s abaya gets caught up in the wheels of a grocery cart (happens) it would be viewed as taboo for an unknown man to offer to help.