American Bedu’s interviews have been a popular subject of interest on the blog. This is a candid interview with Iman, a woman, who does not hold back on her experiences and feelings. She continues to go through a state of flux as she processes these experiences and changes in her life. American Bedu thanks her profusely for her forwardness and asks that all who read this interview show sensitivity and respect to someone who has come forward and given us a rare gift of such frank openness on subjects that typically remain closed and silent.
You call your blog ”A time for me to talk”, and yourself a ”free Saudi woman”. How did you feel about growing up in Saudi Arabia?
My feelings about growing up in Saudi are quite mixed and quite confusing to be honest with you. It was not my choice to live, go to school or grow up in Saudi. Like many, my family moved there and thus so did I. Looking back at it all now, and especially now that I am living my life the way I want it and that I am years removed from that life, my anger is not as intense and neither is my fear. Had you asked me this same question a few years back I would probably have said that it was a life of terror and a pure taste of hell. I would still describe my life there as an experience I would not want to subject myself to ever again and certainly would not wish it upon any other human being none the less a growing child.
You come from a polygamous marriage, do you think polygamy makes for a stable relationship between your mother and father, and between you and your father? Would you want to be in a polygamous marriage yourself? Did you have half siblings and if so, did you have a good relationship to them? Did you consider polygamy for yourself?
Yes, my father married another woman, while he was married to my mother, when I was 16 years old. “Stable” is not a word I would place within a 100 meters of the word Polygamy. It is almost funny to call it “polygamy” since I never even knew what that meant till I moved to Canada. I thought that it was every man’s God given right to marry as many women as he pleased and divorce as many as he pleased regardless.
I cannot speak for anyone but myself and I can only comment and reflect on my own experiences but when my father married his second wife, he did not seek our approval nor did he care what we had to say. We, being my mother myself and my brother.
He did what the norm called for in a country like Saudi, and that was to do what he wanted and how he wanted to do it. Respecting my mother and my wishes was unheard of. I recall him telling me “If you or anybody stands in my way I will crush you.” He said this to me after my mother left to Egypt and I was having a hard time accepting this new life I was being forced into with another woman living in my house.
So, after my mother left to go live in Egypt and a good 10 years into their marriage, my dad and his new wife had 2 girls whom I love dearly and sadly have not seen in over 3-4 years. I am told they do not remember me. They just know they have a sister in Canada called Iman.
It is ironic you should ask if I would want to be in a polygamist marriage. I was married once before to a Saudi man who went and married his first cousin as a second wife 2 months into our own marriage. Needless to say, that ended up in divorce and thankfully I was in Canada at the time, so it was not as hard, though he did do his best to make it that way.
Did it bother you that you were not allowed as much freedom as a man? or did you think this was natural and reasonable?
I never understood why my brother could do certain things, like travel abroad alone, while I was prohibited from the same. Mother always tried to explain things to me but they just never made any sense. That, unfortunately, only harboured anger, hate and resentment on my part. I saw it as preferential treatment from my parents. Then I started seeing the bigger picture as I grew older. I saw that the entire society I lived in preferred man to woman. Men had power over women. Women depended on men for so many things it was actually quite alarming.
Silly little things I could not do without a man. I felt like a shadow of a human. I was crippled by a society that seemed to hate women and kept us on a tight leash. Why? I would always ask and the answers were so disappointing and so full of crap.
Of course, this just added insult to injury as I grew into an angry young woman who hated who she was, where she lived and everything around here. I became obsessed with everything my society prohibited me to do.
I drove cars, I dated boys, I drank, had sex, did drugs, traveled alone and uncovered my hair and face in public. You name it …I did it.
So, is it natural or reasonable to suppress one gender while empowering the other? My answer is no. People quote the Quran, God, the prophet, this and that but these are manmade rules and regulations.
No divine power or spirit would request or allow such an imbalance of life and the general insult to humanity that Saudi Arabia has managed to set as a rule and claimed it to be the way of God.
Spending your youth in Saudi Arabia, do you think you had a good childhood?
Depends on what good means I guess. I lived in a 4 level Villa with 4 nannies and a driver. We had a new car in our garage every 6 months or so and it usually was a top of the line make and model. We traveled to Europe, Asia and the states every year.
I made money, and lots of it, once I started working and I went shopping almost every day.
I always wore the best clothes and the most expensive jewellery and makeup. I went to parties, the best schools and then became a doctor.
On the opposite side of things, I was abused on a daily basis (mostly physically, mentally and emotionally) by mother, father, and brother and eventually step mother. I was forced into medical school. I feared going out because I might get captured by the religious police for doing this, that or the other…or for just being female. I got harassed by sex driven men every single time I went out.
I had to reside with the fact that I most likely will never get married because I was a doctor and had to do night shifts at the hospital (which apparently only meant I was sleeping with men.)
Then I had to deal with living the double life that almost every other Saudi lives. Praying in front of other, fasting, mentioning God 10000 times in my speech and then going home talking to boys on the phone and going out to mixed parties…etc.
It was quite the conflicting life! Enough to leave the greatest of minds puzzled.
Have you ever been confronted by the religious police?
My confrontations with the religious police were endless. I was captured by them twice, both times ended with me being kidnapped and thrown in jail. The best place to read about my encounters with them would be my blog http://www.xsaudi.blogspot.com/
We have heard many stories of Saudi youth managing to meet up even given the strict rules of segregation. Did you ever attempt such an adventure?
Oh yes, I certainly did. Just like my friends did and their friends did. I recall going to parties at different embassies in the diplomatic quarter. These parties were on a Hollywood scale it was almost surreal. Women and men, alcohol, music and dancing…it was a nice good refreshing break I was able to get every now and then from the intense rigid and fixed lifestyle rules I had to live with back then.
I think I had a new boyfriend every one year or so and yes, I went out with them on secret dates. The adrenaline rush, the danger and the thrill of it all was so much worth it back then. Had I known then what I know now, I would have changed many of my immature actions that eventually lead me to a catastrophic event.
You got a scholarship to study in Canada, were you excited or apprehensive to go to a foreign country alone and on your own? Did you still cover in the Saudi Abaya and veil?
Ever since I can remember it was a dream of mine to study abroad and adapt the western lifestyle. I would stand in front my bedroom mirror and go through all these amazing scenarios of what I would do during my travels to Canada and what I would say when I met certain people or encountered a specific situation. I would even go and get my wardrobe out and change my clothes according to the imaginary situation I was living. I was so young and my dreams were so big.
Since I had no choice in my medical career I made sure I chose the one medical specialty that would have guaranteed me a scholarship to Canada. Anaesthesia it was!
I applied for my scholarship and worked hard to pass all the Canadian evaluating exams and I did. 2 years later, I was granted to the approval. Sadly, at that point the catastrophe I was referring to earlier had occurred and though it seemed that my dreams were never going to come true, they eventually did.
While on your scholarship you were assaulted by another Saudi Student. How did the Canadian authorities treat you and your case? What was the punishment for the assaulter. Did the hospital where you worked offer you counseling? What happened to the Saudi man? What was the response from the Saudi authorities to this assault regarding you and the perpetrator?
Did your family support you?
This tragedy is what led me to eventually abandon medicine. During my second year of Anesthesia residency training I was sexually assaulted by another – Saudi- Anesthesia resident during a resident retreat gathering. I knew this person from the hospital that sponsored us for the scholarship program back in Saudi. We were Anesthesia residents there as well.
The actual attack took place in a cottage – where the retreat was being held. It was the winter of 2004…it was a day I will never be able to forget. Once it happened, he informed me that he had planned it. I stayed in shock for weeks.
It was a good month before I spoke of it to my department members. I was called into a meeting with the program director and told that I had to go to the police. When I said no, they presumed it was all a big lie and simply ignored me.
I should probably explain why I refused to go to the police at the time. As many people would support the argument that if I was indeed assaulted in such a manner then I would not have thought twice about going to the Canadian authorities.
Back then, I was a Saudi who was only here on a work permit for my scholarship. I was fully funded by the Saudis and thus they controlled every move I made. Not sure how much people know about Saudi but to keep it simple I can tell you women have no rights there. I actually do not even know how I ended up getting a scholarship?!
Women are ordered by law to cover from head to toe in order not to attract men. If men harass us anywhere or in any shape or form we are punished by going to jail or getting lashed. Women in Saudi are not allowed to drive a car, travel on their own without a male guardian or permission from one. We are not allowed to enter government offices, and the time we had no I.D even.
So, knowing all that and having been in trouble with the Saudi authorities in the past I was fully aware of what the outcome would be if they got news of what was going on. I knew that without a second though my scholarship and funding would both be terminated and that I would be ordered to return to Saudi…shamed.
Meanwhile, and while I was trying to digest my assault and what action to take next. The Anesthesia program director ignored all my requests of not to be scheduled with the guy who attacked me. I became isolated and people avoided me because I was simply a trouble maker and a liar.
My attacker continued to corner me and harass me whenever he got the chance at work and I became the boy who cried wolf.
This went on for another 3 years during which my mental status deteriorated significantly to the point where I was making serious errors at work. My supervisors at work hated me. They were harsh and failed me rotation after rotation. They gave me awful evaluations and no one ever asked why? And are you ok?
In 2007 I went on an extended leave and finally reported my case to the police because I had simply failed to thrive in life. I also wrote a detailed letter to the head of the Saudi Bureau in Ottawa explaining exactly what happened with dates and times. Two weeks later I got a letter of termination from the Saudi Bureau where they told me that I had to return my scholarship money back to them (200,000) and that my funding will be stopped.
And here we are today 2010…my case against the hospital, my attacker and the Saudi bureau remain opened and in limbo in between the human rights commission and the police.
My family offered nothing to me in the form of support. I do not think they believe me and if they did they just do not care. After all, I am a whore…
You still reside in Canada, are you planning to return to Saudi Arabia?
Though life is hard right now, yes, I do live in Canada with absolutely no plans to ever go to Saudi for any reason. I have actually looked into renouncing my Saudi citizenship but, far be it from a country like Saudi to give its citizens the right to do something like that.
You are now married and have children, as your husband is not Saudi they will not be eligible for Saudi citizenship, does that bother you? Do you want your children to visit Saudi Arabia?
I do not think my husband would want the Saudi citizenship. Nor would we want it for our children. We are all Canadians, free and have full rights. Why would I give that up for the nightmare of Saudi citizenship where they govern everything you do from how you dress to who you marry and what religion and nationality everyone has to be?!
You have been very resilient and very courageous dealing with many troubles. You are also very courageous in sharing your story with the world. Would you consider writing a book?
I crossed paths here with a documentary producer who was very interested in my story for both a T.V documentary as well as a book. Sadly, funding fell through and we parted ways. But to answer your question, yes. I wrote my blog to simply tell my story and share it with those who think they are alone. I would always welcome an opportunity to further address the injustice that was practiced on me and is being practiced still on many other Saudis.
Have you been getting responses from Saudis on your blog? And did they support you or denounce you? If you have been threatened, do you worry about it?
I have had a little bit of both actually. I have made some good friends through my blog and I have made some enemies. I recall one comment saying “Now I know where all the Saudi trash ends up…in Canada”.
I lived a good 28 years of my life being threatened, suppressed and mortified, not any more.
Are you in contact with your family in Saudi Arabia at this time?
I hear from them once every 3 years or so. Usually it is either an insult or something they need. I wish them well though.
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Filed under: abbya, Charity, culture, Freedoms, gender, Interview, relationships, religion, safety, Saudi Arabia, Saudi blogs, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, Saudi education, Saudi Living, Uncategorized, Women Issues Tagged: | abaya, blogging, culture, culture shock, customs, gender, gender issues, heritage, islam, KSA, Love, marriage, Relationship, Saudi, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs
Bravo to Iman for finally making the right decision….to marry a Canadian and begin a new life. Don’t ever look back; only forward. Your worst fears were realized when you reported the guy, but luckily, you had already moved on in your own life.
[...] Saudi Arabia: Iman Shares Her Experience « American Bedu // Saudi Arabia: Iman Shares Her Experience « American Bedu listing above has been [...]
Thank you Iman for opening up here. Your a brave woman. I was sexually assaulted by a Jordanian veternarian and did not report it. Glad that you have stability now.
1. I do have a question and forgive me if I am way out of line but do you continue to practice Islam. I realize that Islam is not to blame for what happened but I am just wondering out of curiosity.
2. Have you gotten asylum?
Thank you for this interview.
anthrogeek10
Thanks for this post, which is very candid and an eye opener for the apologists of Saudi Arabia.
I appreciate the courage and determination of this woman and her achievements against all odds.
I also admire her for all the struggles she went through, abuses she faced and her indomitable spirit through it all (she is a true Arian – like me!).
I saw her blog as well, which is very moving.
It’s rather unfortunate that she didn’t get justice from the Canadian authorities who let the abusive Saudi man go scot free.
Canada is a mirage in many ways for the immigrants – it’s not exactly the multicultural paradise it projects itself to be. Many immigrants have faced injustices in Canada after immigrating there.
But still, it’s a million times better than Saudi Arabia.
Reading about her, I felt fortunate that I don’t live a life of luxuries, but I have always enjoyed the freedom to do whatever I wanted. My country or my family has never tried to restrict me in anyway. And I have enjoyed a supporting and stable family.
I also came to know from her blog that probably her stepmother is a Western woman.
I feel Western women should specially take care to find out that the Saudi man they plan to marry doesn’t already have an existing or divorced wife with children. Western women have many kinds of choices available to them. They can at least spare a Saudi family the trauma of a second wife in their home.
Carol, I do feel that you should get more Saudis on your blog, rather than Westerners living in cocoons in Saudi Arabia, who don’t really know the Saudi reality but like to defend an imaginary Saudi Arabia that probably doesn’t exist.
Every time a Saudi has spoken on your blog, I have got a different picture from what the Westerners have projected.
Daisy…
I guess people want to be politically correct. For me, as a future anthropological scholar, I worry at times that if I express what I really think, I will appear ethnocentric. KSA seems, as I understand it, to be, is a whole different animal as it relates to the rest of Muslim majority countries.
We do not know what goes on behind closed doors. I will never pretend to understand until I spent at least one year in the country doing fieldwork. I am not implying you don’t understand. I do not know you or your experiences.I am saying that just because a Western expat lives on a compound, does not an expert make.
So, we agree on that. When I was living in Bahrain, I was not on a compound and lived in poverty with my Pakistani husband at the time. I lived among S. Asian workers. It was heartbreaking in many ways. So I believe that I felt a taste of how S. Asians live and survive in those conditions.
I so went off on a rant that borders on nonsensical…..just tired I guess.
anthrogeek1o
“KSA seems, as I understand it, to be, is a whole different animal as it relates to the rest of Muslim majority countries’- anthrogeek1o
Totally agree!!!! I’m amazed to find out whole another world that is KSA!! I’m from a muslim country myself, but God, I don’t understand what’s going on over there in the name of religion!
(first time poster here, have been reading it for lil while)
A very moving moving interview. Thank you Iman for sharing your experiences. I hope you receive the justice you deserve.
Daisy:
You seem to have a very black and white view of this world. There’s good and there is bad everywhere. If you want to believe that Saudi Arabia is a terrible place filled with terrible people then you are welcome to. But please stop denigrating the opinions of those of us who have experiences that are different to yours.
Thank you Carol and Iman for this very moving interview. It is scary, how women can be oppressed, be it in Saudi or in the US. Many women abused mentally and physically in the US on everyday basis,they do not go and complain because of fear they have for their lives, lives of their children and relatives. Many of them have been beaten to death and US law is not very proactive on these cases, best you can get is a restraining order, which does not protect you from being shot or stabbed. Domestic violence is a big issue for any country.
When I was thinking to move to Saudi Arabia my Saudi friend told me that I am so lucky to hold and american passport, because I can do anything with it here. I can work, travel, go alone everywhere and, most important, the way people will accept me if once they know that I am an american…
So far my experience in Saudi Arabia was very pleasant and I hope it will stay that way for the next 2 years or so.
I wish Iman and her family all the best in life and I am happy that she does not hold an anger against her relatives, since they are the product of the society they grew up in. Forgiveness is a key to a happy life, it eliminates the negative attitude towards people who did something wrong. And God will be their judge.
One cannot judge the whole country by one dysfunctional family’s expereince. Although I sympathise with Iman, I feel its her abusive parents that created her traumatic experience and not the whole country. The country she is living in now is not really helping her either. Maybe her father was not happy with his then wife and when her mother moved out, he married another woman.
Sometimes living such a luxurious life can lead a person to feel empty inside, always looking for some closeness and identifing with people not so rich.
Iman is not entirely blameless. Her “whore”-like lifestyle may have also contributed to her unfortunate experience.
Lada, ” I am happy that she does not hold an anger against her relatives” – she wrote in her blog that she hated her father.
I hope she raises her children to be upright and responsible citzens, obeying the law of the country, something she herself could not do. Wish her the best.
There is no excuse for rape at all. Islam does not give men the right to rape women. I am sorry for Imans experiences and wish her the best in her new life.
It seems all the incidents stem from a lack of respect for women. In Saudi the segregation is so complete and mixing is considered so wrong that it breeds a kind of alienation between the sexes and they do not know how to deal with each other in a normal way. If they interacted more then the men and women would be able to have a more balanced approach towards each other.
Daisy, as you have never lived in Saudi and seemingly have not much knowledge or care for the place why are you bothering to lower the tone of the blog by spewing such zenophobic and bigoted opinions? Out of genuine interest, why is Saudi of such interest to you?
Anthrogeek,
Thanks for your anthropological perspectives.
Perhaps we can ask Iman this question, if she would like to respond – Iman, being a native of Saudi Arabia who lived there for 26 years, how widely prevalent do you think are the kind of experiences you had there?
Field work for a year would not give one a clear view of what goes on here in KSA. Many of us have been here for over 25 years (behind those closed doors mentioned above), and we have learned and are still learning new things all the time on how to survive here as an expat/wife. Carol’s blog gives us the venue to express our pent up happiness and/or anger at what takes place here without fear.
The happiest Americans I’ve met are those that have kept their own culture while learning to adapt in between vacacations. They have not tried to become something they’re not. Most of us are much more conservative in our thinking and in our atire from having lived in such a conservative place no matter if we converted to Islam or not. And yet, we are still considered to be on the wild side in this country if we choose not to veil.
As to second wives, the majority of expat second wives claim not to have known about the first family until they were already pregnant. And, for those that didn’t mind, even if they knew about the first wife, I’m sure they never realized what kind of pain and suffering they brought to the first wife and her children even if the marriage was over. That is because children, even elderly children, don’t want to see their parent with anyone else—even if that parent dies. Is that a reason for a man or a woman to never marry again? Each couple has to decide on that.
I have learned that all women need to be prepared for the day that they might be alone as the odds worldwide are against the institution of ‘marriage for life’ with just one partner. The majority of women outlive men by 10 to 40 years, so even if they remain together, the woman may end up alone anyway for quite some time.
Sarah,
Segregation doesn’t seem to be so complete in Saudi Arabia – as you or other Western foreigners maintaining a distance from the local Saudis imagine. Iman has said that Saudis live a double life – on the surface they pretend to follow the rules, but they have a hidden lifestyle where they mix with the opposite sex, date, some take drugs and drink and do everything not permitted there.
I have heard about similar incidents from Indians who went to Saudi Arabia for work and who came back to narrate the life there – and I’m talking about well educated Indians, not the semi-literate ones who go there to do the laborers’ work. They mix with the local Saudis, so they know about these things.
it seems without going there I know about things which the Westerners living there don’t know about.
This is what I mean by a superficial reading that Western foreigners have of the country by not really mixing with the local Saudis and imagining the place to be something it is not.
Stacy
It’s fine to enjoy the pleasant experiences one has been fortunate enough to have in life – anywhere in the world, but one must be sensitive towards the people who are not so fortunate. Not to acknowledge their sufferings as I have seen Westerners on these blogs doing borders on insensitivity towards the less fortunate.
@Daisy,
Thanks but most of ly social time was spent in Saudi with my Saudi friends whom I also went to school with so I have mixed plenty with Saudis in their homes and family functions.
Actually the semi literate Asians are probably the drivers or maids of the Saudi and live with them so probably have the best clue as to what is going on.
You didnt answer the question as to where your intetrest in Saudi comes from?
We know what goes on in this country, the injustices and the hypocracy, but it is not our place to do anything about it. The Saudis don’t want our help or our advice when it comes to their culture. These changes have to come from within and I commend Iman for speaking out. Its just a shame that these people often have to be living outside the country to be empowered to due to the potential repercussions.
@Sarah
She also wrote that she wishes well to her relatives, which indicates that she is not angry with them…
As for hatred towards her father,that was an immediate reaction to his actions.
Thank you for sharing this! I can only imagine how many silent victims we have.
Thank you all. I appreciate all comments and the opportunity to share my story. Thank you Carol for hearing my call.
As for the comments and questions; I will sum it up by saying that I wrote this blog over a period of 3 years during which, my emotions fluctuated as did my stability in life.
I currently do not practice Islam..or anything actually. Unlike many I want to find my own peace rather than hide under the umbrella or religion.
I have known many women during my life in Saudi who have had similar experiences if not much worse than mine.
I do not hate my family. I am saddened by the outcome of events. What I do hate is the malpractice of power I witnessed in Saudi. Mainly by men and yes, including my father.
At my current state I wish no human harm and I do not want to flare tempers and emotions. I am simply telling my story…
Thank you
Stacy:
“Daisy:
You seem to have a very black and white view of this world. There’s good and there is bad everywhere. If you want to believe that Saudi Arabia is a terrible place filled with terrible people then you are welcome to. But please stop denigrating the opinions of those of us who have experiences that are different to yours.”
As I see it, she is just being straight up and to the point. That kind of communication style is not for everyone. I do not get that she believes that everyone in KSA is the same but I may not have read enough of her comments.
anthrogeek10
You guys are commending Iman for speaking out against Saudi, when the only thing tragic she mentioned happened in Canada. The life she described in Saudi sounds better than most and she didn’t appear restricted as she managed to do all the forbidden things. If any of your children wrote a post like that I think most would consider them ungrateful spoil brats.
Miriam Mac:
“Field work for a year would not give one a clear view of what goes on here in KSA. Many of us have been here for over 25 years (behind those closed doors mentioned above),”
While it is true that no one can know everything about a society in one year living among those being studied, one year (or 18 months) is a pretty standard time frame for gathering a data set for a PhD. Doing a PhD is highly specialized. An anthropologist chooses a narrow topic to investigate (such as understanding gender role shifts in a globalized economy) and goes from there. The scientist doing the work is focusing on a narrow topic, which still looking holistically at the big picture.
I am trying to be diplomatic here!!
anthrogeek10
It is only Ummadam for said the wisest thing here. To m, Imam seems like a spoiled brat.
Ok so her house was in a mess but does that make it ok for what she did? I know a lot of people who went through similar domestic viloence and turned out to be warriors fighting against domestic problems and abused wives and children. They did not become rebels. None of them accused the country they are living in. Was she not grateful for the things she had while many are living in poverty in KSA?
Besides all this, the country she is living now, is the one giving her problems and being unjust. Is she running away from there too? No, she just gave up according to her blog.
Acting against the norm is always being condemned specially if your living in Saudi Arabia.
But I admire your courage Iman. Held your head up for you just did what your heart’s desire.
Ditto with the comment “this country is full of hypocrisy”, indeed! Not only women are being harassed by lust-thirst Saudis but men alike. But men cannot cry “foul” because it is not our norm and it would be a shame on us.
Women of Saudi are living in a world of silent-grief.
Everyone should be more compassionate and less judgemental of this woman!!
anthrogeek10
Iman,
WOW! You are a survivor, emotionally, spiritually and physically. You are certainly a ray of hope for those in great trouble. I read your blog–keep it up–it is very informative.
I honestly do not think it is necessarily how one dresses, acts, and/or looks that causes men to sexually assault a female. It could be one or a combination of these things, or none of them. I had a bad experience myself with a married classmate who was looking for more than friendship with me. I dress conservatively for the culture I am in, am loyal to my significant other, and have made it clear that I am only interested in friendship. I have many male friends (some single, some taken) who respect me and the fact that I am loyal to my significant other. I happen to be a very friendly person, but in Western society, I do not understand why this should be a problem.
However, this particular one could not seem to understand that. He told me that he had thought I was beautiful since the moment he saw me. He told me that I needed to “open my mind” and see him like how he saw me and that we could have something special together. Why couldn’t I see that? This is even after I reminded him that we both had significant others and I wasn’t interested. At least this one had some shred of decency to stop before it turned into rape (which would happen over my dead body, quite literally, if it ever managed to occur). Luckily, I have a wide support group of friends and was able to talk to some people at the university to prevent it from ever happening again (I hope). This person was not from Saudi Arabia, nor was he from a “Western” country. In fact, most -if not all- of the people I have met from Saudi Arabia here are very nice, respectful people.
@ummadam: Iman may have had more freedom to go to parties, but she was still restricted as to what to go to university for. I imagine there were other areas of her life that people in her family were a bit more strict about. That said, it does seem like her family seemed to have more material wealth than others. After basic needs are met, what I have found to be important are the relationships we have with family and friends. Then, any additional material wealth. There are plenty of people in the world whose parents have a lot of financial resources, but who are unhappy people because they do not get the attention, love, and/or guidance they need from their parents. However, my perception on this could be influenced by my cultural views and the way I was raised. Not knowing what Iman’s life was like, I cannot comment on her personal experiences other than what she has mentioned in this interview.
However, I agree that it is unfair to see it as a problem with a particular country because there were lots of different circumstances that contributed to the hardships Iman has mentioned.
No judgements from me. I can feel for anyone who comes from a dysfunctional family. i ask that no judgements be placed on her country of origin because her family was dysfuntional.
There is nothing wromng with her telling her story, but I don’t see anyone here being compassionate. I see it more of another reason to bash Saudi even though EVERY country has dysfunctional families.
I made my living in America based on how many dysfunctional families are there. Both in Child Protective Services and In The Criminal justice system. I don’t see anyone condeming America and congratuating American citizens for leaving a country with as many societal ills as America.
Heck, appluad me for removing my family from that cess pool!
Iman,
Thanks for sharing your experiences! We all face difficulties in life. It is how we manage to work through them that is important. It seems that you are moving forward in your life in a positive way. I wish you the best with your future!
Thank you, Iman, for your honesty. I look forward to reading your blog. As to what some said about you being spoiled…One can be spoiled with material things and not be given love, respect, and attention. I would rather have love and concern from my parents than all the money, cars, and clothes in the world. I believe THIS is what was lacking in her household. I have seen it often here – kids raised by nannies and maids. I have students who are closer to their maids and drivers than to their parents. It is sad, but rather common. I wish Iman all the best, and hope her family’s future is bright and happy.
Your right Umm Adam in that America is not perfect and we too have our social problems such as spousal abuse. I was married to a Pakistani man for a time and he never abused me in any form while my American one tried to choke me (which I had him arrested for and I am seeking a divorce now). What I believe is salient here is not that social problems are felt just in KSA or just in the West but how these social issues, particularly regarding women are handled. 4 big cops responded to my call for help and took him away at my request. I also have a restraining order against him (although it does not 100% help, the courts helped to make my new address unsearchable). In KSA, I doubt women would have such “luxuries”. Let’s get real. I will not be diplomatic here and say it is ok “because it is culture”. I just will not. These are HUMAN RIGHTS issues. I suspect someone will argue about that as well.
anthrogeek10
@ummadam,
I agree that the US has its share of dysfunctional families as I’ve seen plenty of them. In fact, when I hear people mentioning how dangerous a particular city is, I think that it’s nothing like where I grew up at when I was little (in the US). However, I think that there are dangerous areas in every country and/or state. I’ve also lived in an extremely safe, family oriented area within the US, so I’ve seen both extremes.
Each country has things to love and hate about it. Just finding a place that fits in with your personal values, a place where you can be happy at, is what is important, I think.
Again someone who choose to stray off the right path blames everyone else for their problems, and again Daisy is here to applaud the bashing of Saudi.I wonder what your dead husband would think of you tolerating this woman aways taking over your blogs with her biais comments?/
Anthrogeek,
Thanks for your comments.
Those who feel Iman has transposed her family’s behaviour pattern on her country, please read her blog – she has also discussed there the kind of oppressions going on in Saudi Arabia as part of the country’s rules which she found abusive towards women.
Anthrogeek,
Perhaps you may like to read her post on Jane Austin, in which she discusses her attitude towards Islam and Saudi religious education.
Sarah,
I’m interested in many diverse kinds of subjects – Saudi Arabia is just one small part of my wide range.
Daisy,
This is a blog in English written by a western woman. Of course there are many western women from Saudi commenting.
You have absolutely no idea how much or little they may or may not be cocooned. Either way, you have not enough knowledge to disregard their opinions.
As someone who has lived as part of a Saudi family, in Saudi for nearly 20 years I’ll tell you right now, that based on what you write on blogs, you certainly do not know “more” about what Saudi is really like than those of us living here. In fact the only things you get are the negatives- and you seem to have no sense as to how those fit within an entire culture and people. Your mind seems only to function in black and white-right or wrong.
Dear Iman,
Thank you for sharing your opinions about Saudi Arabia although they made me feel sad for different perspectives. I am Saudi and I am from Medina. I read your interview for more than three times to understand why you are crying against Saudi and describe it as a hell. As much as I love Saudi and I am grateful for my government that sent me abroad to commence my postgraduate education as much as I am going to be neutral and more compassionate with you in my comment for different reasons. 1) It is because you were Saudi, 2) it is to be more just with you and to put my feelings aside to understand the real problems that lead you this way and to learn from it and 3) it is to be heard. As I said I will be more passionate and I will not judge you but at the same time I will be candid with you and I will not give you a fake comment just to please you. We should know our mistakes first and we should learn from our mistakes to be fair with ourselves and others.
After I read your interview I came up with these points:
1- you lived a very luxurious life in Saudi and everything was at your hand except the religious and social taboo: sex, dating, drink, drug, freedom to convert to another faith, etc but you enjoyed, very high standard living of life in terms of education, accommodation, food, transportation, servants, travelling abroad every year. Iman, I think you are/were a Muslim. Where is your Iman? If your brother had more freedom than you to go abroad or having these taboo that does not make him better than you. It made you better than him by the help of these social restrictions.
2- You said that your family moved to Saudi. Here I do not know about your family background. Are you an Egyptian family immigrated to Saudi? Or your father is Saudi and he married an Egyptian woman? Maybe your mum could not adjust with the Saudi culture, and she fed your mind with negative attitudes towards Saudi? Just wondering
3- You are complaining about your career and you blamed your family for what you claimed that they forced you to join the medical school. I have a question. Did you join the school of medicine by Wastah and if so, did you commit serious medical mistakes to your patients and this made you feel negative about your career?
4-. You defined polygamy as that God gives the man the freedom to marry and divorce women as much as he can. I think you joined the Saudi public schools and a student in the primary school in Saudi can define what polygamy is and its conditions according to Islamic teachings. So, I am sorry I can not buy what you said about polygamy.
5- You said that your ex-husband married the second wife while you were in Canada? Did he marry the second wife because you left him alone in Saudi and you just moved to Canada against his will? And if so, Whom should be blamed?
6- The Saudi government sponsored your scholarship and paid 200.000 $ for your study and living expenses in Canada. Do not you think that such a government deserves your gratitude?
7- You sound like blaming everyone around you, the hospital, your supervisors, your father, your colleagues and the Saudi culture, Islam etc. have you ever thought to blame yourself?
8-You said that your feelings are mixed and confused about Saudi. Does this mean that you think that living in Saudi is much better than Canada?
9- You were rebellious in Saudi against culture, your parents; do you dare to be rebellious against your husband now? And if no, what made him different and why it was easy to be rebellious against your culture but to submit to your husband duties now? Do not you think that these taboos that were not allowed to get in public in Saudi although you had them in secret there does not deserve that you disconnect from your family and upset your father and lose the luxurious life that you were enjoying just to get these taboos in public? And after you had these taboos, do you feel happy now? And if so, are you going to recommend these taboos for your children? And if no why?
10- Do you miss the Saudi hospitability and how people are more social and cooperative? Do not you think that Saudis are conservative just because they love and care about their related women but not as you said that they hate them?
11- Do not you think that American or Canadian girls who struggle hard every single day to pay their rents, living expenses, education tuition wish to live your luxurious life with its social and religious taboos in Saudi?
I wish you the best for your life and I hope that you find candid answers to my questions with yourself and all your problems get fixed. You do not need to answer me back but think of these questions that I raised here and it may help you to find what you are missing in your life.
Salam Iman
What has happened to Iman in Canada is sad. One must understand that from a legal point of view it is not easy to charge somebody two years after the fact and with no proof. The police have to be very careful on both sides and therein lies the problem.
Anthrogeek,
Also “Why I’m blogging”
For those who think I think in black and white – here we have a Saudi man placing the entire blame on Iman in very nice and polite words for all that she went through.
And if I suggest we should hear more from the Saudis, I think in Black and White. Why, because the real Saudi Arabia will come out and the imagined portrayal will vanish?
So luxury is a means to brainwash against freedom!
Sorry, I’d never exchange my freedom for the Saudi kind of luxury in a gilded, abusive cage.
Victim shaming is ugly no matter how polite the language within which it is couched. yaa haram.
Thank you, Iman, for sharing your story. Best of luck to you in all of your endeavors.
@Daisy;
Lol – a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. If all your knowledge is as faulty as that which has been displayed here why dont you stick to one subject and become better informed?
Dear Iman,
I have to add this comment because some people in here who used to bash Saudi for reason and no reason in their every single comment they post here tried to put my comment on your interview in a context of blaming you. Please note that my comment is not a blame or judgement to any party here. It is comment for you as a person to make you think of the other side of your story. It is to help you to know where the problem was and what was/is best for you. It is to help you to make a balance as least this is my intention. It is to step back and see the world from a far distance to get a complete picture of the scene.
Again, I wish you the best in your life in which road you choose to go through.
Salam.
Iman is a highly courageous Saudi woman for coming forward and sharing her story with the world. She is sharing her thoughts, feelings and experience. She is not asking anyone to agree or disagree with her. She is clearly on a new journey of discovery and hoping to reach her destination of peace with the help of outpouring her words.
Her words should not in any way be interpreted as a bashing of Saudi or its society. We, as readers, are learning the experiences from Iman’s “slice of the pie.” Depending on who one is, where they are from and why they are where they are in Saudi will reflect in so many differing experiences. Life in Saudi is by no means ‘one size fits all.’
Iman’s experience reminds me to a small degree of the young Saudi males who have had bad experiences and end up going to Afghanistan or elsewhere. Whereas Iman reached out within Saudi to bury herself in a different and untraditional lifestyle. It takes a lot of guts to acknowledge that.
She says she no longer has a specific faith which she follows. I sincerely pray that over time she finds that inner peace and returns to faith.
I just read her blog, majority of it.
I came to say exactly what AB posted in her last paragraph.
My very personal opinion-nothing and no one is worth losing the relationship with God. It’s just so special. I also hope she returns to faith in her own terms, without anyone judging what’s right or wrong. I find spirituality to be a major aid in healing process, specially from such mental and emotional trauma.
Good luck to her.
Carol,
I agree with your comment. Though if she has found peace in distancing herself from religion, nothing wrong with it.
Sarah,
How many subjects I’m interested in is not your business. Simply because I don’t agree with you, it doesn’t mean what I know is not true.
Iman,
Thanks for your comment above and for enlightening us that this is also the story of many women in Saudi Arabia, who never speak out.
You are an extraordinary woman! And it’s great that you have finally found true love in Canada.
My best wishes for your future life.
I sympathize with Iman, although I’m pretty young/inexperienced -18 years old- to comprehend the hardships she’s been through, I do live in this brainwashed-to-a-certain-belief society, I really admire Iman’s courageous self though.
I’ve always yearned for an open-minded/understanding society, where people would think for them selfs instead of having their thoughts processed for them by whomever, be it government or religion.
Growing up my sisters and I had pretty much whatever we wanted, though it was bought for my little sister (his bio kid) we enjoyed these things. My parents had good jobs and we had nice things etc etc etc….having said that…I would have traded every sinlge thing I had not to be abused every day of my life. My friends were often jealous because I had THINGS….not knowing what else I had that they didnt.
For those on here condeming this girl for rebelling against her life…try being her and seeing through her eyes before kicking her ass and blaming her for lashing out at a society and culture that tried to confine her as it does every female in that country. Not every experience is YOUR experience. If she found it abusive then it was abusive…how can u turn her words around into mere whining and bitching? Did you walk in her shoes…live her life?
Yay she had clothes and jewelry and housemaids etc…but she had abuse too…whether emotional, physical or sexual is beside the point…she felt abused and THAT is hte point of her story. Not that she was a teenage rebel “deserving” of what she got cause she strayed off the “right” path.
How do u stay on the right path in a religion in which the country that professes to practice it perfectly are as crooked as a woodland path?
Iman has her “sins” but does that mean she deserved what happened to her…whether in Saudi or Canada?
Some commentors on this blog, particularly some women, make me ashamed to be a woman sometimes. We are our own worst enemies.
Iman…you made mistakes and bad things happened to you as well, we ALL have made mistakes and have bad things happen to us…but you found a way to over come them and get passed them (hopefully) and are getting on with it from the sound of it. In the end…thats all that matters. Good luck.
Thanks for sharing the interview.
@Medina
I think Iman answered at least one of your questions quite thoroughly:
“8-You said that your feelings are mixed and confused about Saudi. Does this mean that you think that living in Saudi is much better than Canada?”
“Though life is hard right now, yes, I do live in Canada with absolutely no plans to ever go to Saudi for any reason. I have actually looked into renouncing my Saudi citizenship but, far be it from a country like Saudi to give its citizens the right to do something like that.
I do not think my husband would want the Saudi citizenship. Nor would we want it for our children. We are all Canadians, free and have full rights. Why would I give that up for the nightmare of Saudi citizenship where they govern everything you do from how you dress to who you marry and what religion and nationality everyone has to be?!”
It seems you have difficulty understanding that someone may truly hate living in that country and continue to feel that way. You keep harping on the luxurious life she left behind, as if all you need in life is a big house, four nannies and a closet full of Guccis.
I’d like to offer you an experiment. Please come to the U.S. I will rent for you a four-story villa with a maid and a nanny. You will have credit cards for unlimited shopping and a driver. In return, I will decide when, where you can and cannot go, what you can and cannot study, what you can and cannot wear, who you can and cannot talk, befriend and marry. You will not be able to leave the house, let alone the country, without my permission. You will have to cover your face and hair when you leave the house. Also, I reserve the right to bring in three more like you at any point. Or to let you go.
Also, when you get raped and come to me for comfort, I will offer you nothing by way of comfort. Maybe I won’t believe you, and maybe I won’t care.
Want to do it?
I don’t get why people keep harping on her sins. What exactly did she do? Talked to boys, dated them, went to parties, danced, tried alcohol, had sex. Big deal. This happens to every single person in normal parts of the world and we all emerge unscarred and unscathed, regardless of what scary stories people tell you about it. It’s completely normal for teenagers to experiment and try new things. It’s completely normal to rebel, especially when the life you lead is so damn oppressive.
As a side remark, having one boyfriend every year is very conservative here in the U.S. This is pretty much what all girls do until they find the boyfriend they want to marry.
NN,
For once we agree!
” As a side remark, having one boyfriend every year is very conservative here in the U.S. This is pretty much what all girls do until they find the boyfriend they want to marry”
this sentence is true for many middle class young girls in Iran too.
I cannot even imagine what Iman has experienced. it is surprising that many of female readers interpret her words as bashing saudi arabia.it seems even in cyberspace, criticizing(critic dont mean bashing) saudi arabia situation and talking about it, is seen as a big sin, so it is not difficult to imagine what situation she had in her home.
Iman , your honesty is admirable.
American Bedu you July interviews were wonderful.thank you so much.
As expected I found lot of response to Iman’s story and that is itself proof that her life had been extraordinary. Now judgement time: Hmmm first of all no one has a right to judge her as she comes from a dysfuntional family. I had quite hard time with my neurotic Mom and I know how damaging it can be…. nobody outside that circle can understand it; my friends used to think I am not able to handle issues with my family.
Further in that loneliness people end up doing stupid things like what Iman did and you become a roller coaster of emotions. Iman had it all and she fought it too. Medina and others you want her to look at her own stupidity instead of blaming the country, I do not think after going through such hell the least she needs to do is speak out, and that does not equate to hatered as you can see that she had huge reservations about life in Canada also. The root cause of all these problems is lack of having a secure childhood. If it was given to her she would not have got into all this trouble.
The problem lies with irresponsible Parents and wherever they are it will create more Iman’s.
However in her case curropt officials in KSA who did not give fair trial added up to her woes.
Conclusion: All governments, societies should strive to create a secure home environment and I hope there will be better neighbours than that heartless person who said ‘You r not my problem go away’.
And country’s policing should not be just about ensuring compulsory prayers and sexual segregation it should start with welfare and security of children who may be living in dysfunctional families, access to emergency toll free numbers, justice when kidnapped by religious police or attacked by a mad angry parent.
For Iman I hope she is seeking medical counselling (if possible) to overcome PTSD.
Sad sad story, her helpless rage comes thru, what all we subject our children to !! sigh!! they never ask to be born, we have them and put them thru this.. forcing someone into an occupation is never a good thing, even if as parents we thnk it is for their benefit. i don’t think she’s abusing saudi, or canada, she’s mad at the restictions. and feels helpless against her assaulter.. maybe her assaulter took advantage of the fact she was under a scholarship system .. who knows what worries me is that ” This assaulting anastehtic is onthe loose”… it’s never a good idea to have a dr especially in that specific fiels not be able to control his urges … i’d say report him, and yank his licence..
he cannot be trusted to put patients under.. no matter what.
As for rebelling, that does not justify being attacked..
Seeing her brother have freedoms denied to her is enough to make anyone rebel. and for some commentator who said maybe she left her husband so he took a 2nd wife.. really!!!!! you think that’s the way to go about a married life. what about partners and sticking it thr everything don’t u get. if she moved without his permission ( why does she need it) then talking to her andmaybe getting a divorce and then remarrying would bethe way to go.
I think she rose above her circumstances, hopefully she will lead a happy life , let go of her past anger and raise her kids equally and happily. wishing her a long fruitful and joyous life.
11- Do not you think that American or Canadian girls who struggle hard every single day to pay their rents, living expenses, education tuition wish to live your luxurious life with its social and religious taboos in Saudi?
what makes you think american and canadian girls struggle– there’s rich parents cusioniong their life style even inthis part of the world
and personally given a choice between less money-less taboos or more money-more taboos , the majority would pick less money and less taboos 
atleast mine will.. when youa re young money does not matter, they think they are invincible .. and want to fly free and must be let to fly free .. teach them well and set them free. they will flourish. ofcourse they’ll be a few bad apples, but that’s the world.. good , bad and shades in between….but atleast give them an oppurchunity to fly free.
Arif and Radha,
Very well said!
Mariam as well!
Many women from Muslim nations have learned to become helpless. They have grown to become fearful of even seeking the truth from Islamic and secular point of views. It will take courage, the right people and tools to bring back faith, and justice to these women. Many Muslim nations are under-developed, where war, poverty, political corruption and high illiteracy rates is the ill-fated reality. However when women, esp. in countries like KSA are already treated with humiliation and disrespect, what then when certain girls go out and provide illicit sex to the same men that treat them like dirt bags. This will not help the situation but make matters worse for all women in the region as they are stereotyped. To become a champion of women rights in these countries, it doesn’t mean to rebel and run away from your problems, but to stand up to it, and fight it till the last breath.
I would remember men throwing papers at me with their numbers on it, or whistling profoundly when I would walk by. Instead of giving them what they want like most girls would… I would walk up to them and ask them if they had a problem, if they would stop or else I would report it (in a very stern voice). Most men would avoid my gaze at all cost whenever I would see them again.
Iman, its good your safe and sound. But I have heard these stories too many times. I think its time Muslim women from the middle-east and elsewhere stop complaining and take matters into their own hands…I think KSA girls have a lot of guts doing drugs, sex, etc…rebellious…in a bad and dangerous way…yes. I would wish more of you would fight with their mouth and close your legs to these men, and deprive them from anything that would satisfy them.
It could be concluded from the interview and comments that people get divided into two parties.
The first party, western oriented party, is telling you do what ever you like, you can practice the freedom which was defined as “dating, having sex, taking drugs, name it …..” but this party when you get a broke, they will leave you alone in the street do deal with your problems and they will close their doors behind. They will say to you in a polite way “I am sorry I can not help” the rude one will say, go away and he will call you names. So that is why there are human rights organizations there. That is, you are responsible for what you are doing and you must take the consequences. Hence, you will be alone at the end.
The second party, Saudi oriented party, is telling you that we interfere into your life and there are social restrictions but they are motivated by love and care, they say that because they love you and they do not want anyone to exploit you and they do not want you to go to hell after death “right path as mentioned”, and they offer you their help and never leave her alone in the street when she gets a broke. So, no human rights bodies are existed there because the society as entirely responsible for individual behaviors and the society manage people behaviors in certain way. So as individual you should manage your life according to their social norms. This means that you are not only responsible for your life, people are also sharing you this life and they are with you in the same boat and you will not be left alone at the end.
Hence, we have two different ways of living and you can choose between them. And it is very important here that you should not judge any of this lifestyle or bash it. It is people’s choice and they chose to live their life this way.
@Carol,
You are saying that she is not bashing Saudi society or Saudi. With my respect to you, I would say that Sun can not be covered by a sieve.
@NN,
Can I go outside alone in the U.S at 9 p.m.? Is it secured that I wear my Saudi national clothes and walk in American streets? Is it secured for a Saudi covered lady to walk a step there? Is it safe that Saudi students can take their bus when they go to the Uni? Is it ok to miss my class at the Uni or I am going to be reported to the police by my Uni? Are students tracked by FBI or not? Is what I am writing now analyzed by the CIA or not? NN wake up dear.
I have also sisters but I do not dare to ask them to uncover. They will think of me as a bad person. It is their life and they chose it this way. They are not oppressed to do so unless they are not Muslims anymore. Saudi is 100% Muslim and I think the majority choice should be respected whatever it is. Our guest here is not a Muslim anymore and she was living in a Muslim society who maintains their beliefs as you maintain your American values and American beliefs. So why to bash the Saudi society? It is their way of life and they chose it this way. Personally, speaking, I am not religious at all but I respect their life, I respect their social restrictions because I understand why they do it this way. Why someone is coming from over the seas and interfere and judge the Saudi society just because he/she lives a different lifestyle? Are you going to offer the Saudi ladies a hand if something bad happen to them? Are you going to secure them financially? All these stuff are secured by Saudi males for their related females; they offer them everything they need except the “freedom” dating, sex, drug name it ….” which is forbidden in their Islamic faith. But in the American context, American ladies are free because they pay their stuff. Some American girls (not all) pay rents of the rooms at their parents’ houses when they get 18. So, American girls are left alone for their life. They are responsible for everything, love, marriage, income, future life, etc name it but Saudi ladies are served in every single point in their life, marriage, income, etc. name it. Correct me if I am wrong and I follow you
@Radha,
some american girls pay rent for their rooms at their parents’ houses.
@Medina
Let me take this one by one.
Can I go outside alone in the U.S at 9 p.m.?
Yes, you can and I do routinely.
Is it secured that I wear my Saudi national clothes and walk in American streets?
You will get a few looks but yes, as long as you have legs, you can walk. Can I walk the Saudi streets in my T-shirt and jeans and uncovered blonde head?
Is it secured for a Saudi covered lady to walk a step there?
Yes, my sister- and mother-in-law walk hundreds of steps every day, abaya and hijabed, and return home in one piece.
Is it safe that Saudi students can take their bus when they go to the Uni?
Yes, it is. My SIL rides the metro to her school and survives somehow.
Is it ok to miss my class at the Uni or I am going to be reported to the police by my Uni?
You will be reported if you violate conditions of your visa whether you are Saudi or Polynesian. And if you have an American passport, you are free to not show up to any classes.
Are students tracked by FBI or not?
Are you telling me foreigners in Saudi have complete freedom to do whatever?
Is what I am writing now analyzed by the CIA or not?
CIA has lots of analysts wasting my tax money so I’m sure someone is looking at your drivel as we speak.
NN wake up dear.
Awake and alert, no reason to be patronizing.
Now I have a question for you: What does any of this have to do with men in the family controlling women in the family?
@NN,
My apology, I forgot to thank you for your invitation. It is my pleasure to visit America one day. I always would like to study in America since I was 10 years old. It was because of a joke my mum said to me. I used to watch the American W wrestling every Tuesday on Saudi TV with the rest of my family. And we were very interested to understand what Hogan and Warrior say. My mum said to me you must go and study in America and come and translate with they are saying lol. I still remember these days with pleasure and life was more opened before it was restricted by the religious police since 1992. Anyway, I went to Australia for study and I still do not know why I chose it over America lol.
salam
@Medina
I will correct you and enjoy doing it. Because you are wrong.
Your whole argument rests on the premise that Saudi males “offer protection” to their ladies because they love and care for them and do not want anything bad to happen to them. First, let’s call things by their proper names, it is not protection, it is called control. Secondly, this argument presumes – pay attention here, grasshopper – that men in the family know better than women in the family what is best for them, and do not trust women to make their own intelligent decisions. I ask you, what is your evidence that you know better what women in the family should do with their lives? Why should you have the right to decide what they study, where they go, who they marry, where they work? Do you have a better brain because you were born with a different set of genitals? What gives you the right to make decisions for other adult people?
Then, let’s take another glaring flaw in your argument. Your position is that in Saudi, people “love and protect” (meaning, control) you, because they will be there to help you if something bad happens to you. I got news for you. Read the interview. Something bad – no, terrible – happened to Iman, and her family did nothing to help her. Did you miss the part where she said that her family did nothing? Or are you talking about an imaginary Saudi family?
Thirdly, you are making a logical error of comparing Western reality to a Saudi ideal. I am married to a Saudi and I am here to tell you that in that country there is just as much bad stuff happening to people who get no help – NONE – from anyone, government or family. Please don’t paint the picture of an Islamic paradise where no one knows hunger, poverty, disease or oppression, because this just ain’t so. Yes, people in the U.S. are generally expected to become financially independent once they are out of college. And yes, parents do help their children financially, emotionally and in other ways. Sara Palin’s 18-year old unmarried daughter had her baby and still lives in her mama’s house.
Finally, I think you are missing the point of her story. She was not angry because her family wouldn’t let her date, drink or drive. She was angry because of daily oppression and abuse, which drove her to act out by dating, drinking and driving. One came before the other.
And you also missed the whole point of my experimental offer (why does that surprise me?) It was not to say that life in the U.S. is better than Saudi. You made a big deal out of her “luxurious life” as if having credit cards makes anyone happy. So I asked you a question, would you let me pay your bills in exchange for total control over your life? You can put it on the moon if you want.
@Medina
“My apology, I forgot to thank you for your invitation. It is my pleasure to visit America one day. I always would like to study in America since I was 10 years old. It was because of a joke my mum said to me. I used to watch the American W wrestling every Tuesday on Saudi TV with the rest of my family.”
No worries, if you take me up on my offer, I will also decide what television programs you are allowed to watch. In fact, you will have to fill out an application for 20 minutes with remote control every day. Every TV set in the house will come with parental controls. Wrestling shows will be blocked, there is too much nakedness, and I want to love and protect you too much to allow you to watch semi-naked men and women. Triple haram. It will be Cartoon Network and maybe Nickelodeon, and 15 minutes of BBC News at 9 pm. Lights out after that.
@NN
You posted before me lol. Anyway, my point is that freedom is relative and it is subject to where you live and to the law of the country. My main point is that these social restrictions or different life styles should not be taken as a shame against any society. I wish you understand that I am a single Saudi voice here among many people who bash the Saudi society. Do you know what does this mean? It means they bash how my mum and my sisters and my other relatives live. It means they say that we are bad people just because we have different lifestyles. Do we deserve that people call us names just because we are different in our social life? I welcome any critics that help us to move forward and get rid of the bad habits if there are any. We need people who help us not people who bash us in every single comment.
Anyway, Thanks for your interest in Saudi issues and you agree with me that freedom is relative because of the guy who is watching my drive now. So let us greet him/her too lol smile.
salam
@Medina
“Do you know what does this mean? It means they bash how my mum and my sisters and my other relatives live. It means they say that we are bad people just because we have different lifestyles. Do we deserve that people call us names just because we are different in our social life?”
I think you are taking this in an unnecessarily personal way. I don’t think there is anything wrong with your Mom and your sisters or anyone else in your extended family. It is not a judgment against YOU personally to say that I detest and disagree with the laws under which the Saudi society is run – not the least because you personally had nothing to do with creating these laws, and seeing as KSA does not have a representative government, it’s unlikely that you will. This is not about bad men or good women. This is about the legal system of the country that systematically privileges one group of people and disadvantages the other simply because the first group has different chromosomal makeup (translation: they are men). I will also add that this is about a legal system that privileges one minority (Al-Saud) over everyone else in the country (not Al-Saud) based on nothing but accident of birth.
@NN
. It is to this extent people are scared by religious people to commit a sin. People are scared to go to hell after death. I had a very hot debate with some Saudi males and females who called me names just because I said something against the social norms in reference to honor and the religious police. They said that I am brainwashed, liberal and secular fagot who do not even deserve to live in Medina. I am telling you about a mainstream thinking of the society. So, this is their beliefs and I respect it because I do not have evidences or proofs to falsify their beliefs. And they are the majority and majority rules. And believe me Al Saud family is a noble family and they did great things to Saudi people regardless of some flaws that could happen with every government. And if Saudis are not Muslims I am sure that AL Saud will respect their beliefs and they will not rule them against their will or faith.
Mismatching reply is going again lol. Dear NN, I did not take it personally although it seemed to you so. I just wanted to give you an example of how harsh criticism of a specific lifestyle is perceived socially. You missed also my main point of the argument. I built my argument on a fact that Saudi is a Muslim society and its constitution is the Quran and the prophet’s literature. So, the legislators are religious people at the first place. Saudi people are followers not action makers. Internally, Saudi people are guided by religious scholars and religion dominates their lifestyles. When I speak about religion and traditions I am speaking about people beliefs. Can you tell your husband that Islam is a false faith? They believe that after death there is a paradise or hell. If you are sinless you will go to paradise and if you are making sins you will be in hell. How can I change their beliefs? How can I change their beliefs about honor? And why I change it if Saudi is 100% a Muslim country? They believe that their way is the best way to follow and they are not ready to give up their beliefs just because someone wants them to get a sort of freedom that clashes with their beliefs. They are not ready to go to hell after death just to please some people. People follow fatwas and everyday they seek fatwa, men and women alike. Why they seek fatwa, they seek fatwa from sheiks to give them the green light or red light for doing something. I will give you an example; a lady was asking sheik, “Sheik! is it ok to take off my clothes in the bathroom if I think there is jinn exist there? The sheik replied, “If you doubt that there is a jinn in the bathroom, it is layajooz (forbidden) to take of your clothes”
It is a nice discussion with you.
I am going to the Uni now.
Have a nice day.
Salam
@Medina,
It is not unusual in certain places and/or sub-cultures within the US for parents to lovingly support their children after they turn 18 years old, do what they can to help close neighbors and friends (some more than others, but I think this can be said for anywhere), and/or still want to see their loved ones make the right choices in life. My parents not only did this, but they have also supported me in whatever I choose to do with my life as long as it is something positive (in other words, not hurting myself or anyone else).
In my opinion, it is possible to have “the best of both worlds”, although it is not always an easy thing to manage.
I think the only major downside was that it was sometimes confusing to understand how my family (and/or myself) “fit” into the culture of a particular area of the US since my family culture is very much blended.
How safe an area is in the US, like I mentioned, depends on the particular area. Some areas would be safe to walk around in at pretty much all hours of the day/night while others are pretty much dangerous at all hours of the day/night. Most are somewhere in between. Some areas are more family-oriented than others.
Charitable organisations exist because people care enough about other people and are aware of a particular need that they decided to provide a means of support for people who need it. The key difference is probably awareness and social acceptance, although I imagine how great a need is depends on the circumstance. Just because a family is expected to care for and support someone doesn’t mean that they will or even can. Although, I imagine people are more likely to help family if it is part of the culture and/or they feel pressured to. If a family member is not supportive of what another one wants to do, they may withhold emotional and/or financial support. This goes for family anywhere, I think.
I think the view of being responsible for oneself or a group of people being responsible for each other is a cultural difference that should not be seen as one being better than the other as they each come with their own set of good and bad things. Finding a good balance between the two is very difficult, particularly on a large scale. What works for one group of people may not work for another.
Claiming to be of a particular religion does not mean that one lives by all of the set rules of that religion Just because one does not have a particular religion does not mean that they do not have certain beliefs and ideas of right and wrong.
I personally believe strongly in people being able to live however they want as long as they are not hurting someone else’s right to live how they want. That is why I like how in the US, there is separation of religion and government. I guess this is one reason I am proud to be an American. When it comes to another country’s culture, particularly one where religion is part of the culture and government laws and regulations, etc. then generally speaking, I do not feel it is my place to judge. If I don’t like it, I don’t have to move there, although I do wish there was more freedom for people to enter/leave places like Saudi Arabia. And yes, I do wish immigration laws made more sense for those wishing to move to the US as well.
Please keep commenting!! I really enjoy hearing the opinions of a Saudi citizen. I try to stay open minded and learn as much as I can about other ways of living and thinking, even if I may not always agree with you on something.
@Medina,
‘Do we deserve that people call us names just because we are different in our social life?’
As an American woman I think that is a GREAT question and one I think you should continue to ponder a bit.
‘ I welcome any critics that help us to move forward and get rid of the bad habits if there are any. We need people who help us not people who bash us in every single comment.’
I have to say that I think this would be impossible beause if we tell you, even if we show you anthropological, sociological or psychological studies on it you will still think we are just bashing your society instead of giving you a way to start to get rid of some of the ‘bad habits’ your culture has.
Welcome to “Bash Saudi Arabia, Season 5” Starring Daisy and friends. And while Carol stated that this has nothing to do with Saudi bashing, the facts says otherwise. I still haven’t seen one post regardless of the topic where the comment section is not filled with hate comments attacking Saudi Arabia and its people. Maybe the comment box should be renamed to “hate box“.
You have one woman who lives thousands of miles away in the Indian continent, who made it her life crusade to malign Saudi Arabia, I don’t know when does she have time to work, eat, or sleep where every time I visit this blog, she is hard at work doing what she does best, attacking Saudi Arabia and its people. She made it her duty, telling us how horrible it is to live in Saudi Arabia, how women are oppressed and enslaved, how our religion is backward, for a minute here, you would think that this woman lives in Utopia, AKA “India”, where everything is fine and dandy. Funny haven’t this woman heard of the cast system where millions of her own countrymen and women are looked down upon, enslaved and live in poverty with no way out. So I suggest you fix your own backyard before passing judgment on other countries. And like the saying goes “ Those who live in glass houses…..” If your intention to compete with another woman who lives in Europe, who also made it her life crusade to attack Saudi Arabia and its people, congratulation, you have succeeded in giving her a good run for her money.
As for Iman, I don’t think anyone in his right mind condones her being raped and I do believe she has the sympathy of everyone around here. But is Saudi Arabia to blame for her being raped, is Saudi Arabia to blame for her having a dysfunctional family, is Saudi Arabia to blame for her drinking, partying and having sex (her words)?? Is Saudi Arabia, the educational attaché, and her supervisors to blame for her medical mistakes (Again I am paraphrasing her own words)?? Is Saudi Arabia to blame for her abandoning her religion?? The government of Saudi Arabia generously offered her a full scholarship worth hundred of thousands of dollars, she managed to travel to Canada minus her male guardian (the mother of all evil), if you believe some the commentators around here. So much for the totally oppressed women, with no rights in Saudi Arabia. And just for the record there are over 20 thousands Saudi girls on full scholarship abroad and most of them are there minus their male guardians.
What we have here is an isolated incident that can happen in any county, it doesn’t reflect on the whole county whatsoever. A while back, Carol interviewed a young Saudi female who is living with her parents in England and who choose to keep her hejab out of a deep conviction, yet many of the commentators believe she was oppressed and brainwashed, Ironic when a post is about a girl who believe in her religion and staunchly defend her country, right away she is labeled brainwashed, yet if she bashes her country, she is giving a hero status.
@ Medina
You’re trying too hard to be nice, you don’t need to apologize for defending your own country, no one needs to. I do believe it’s one given right to defend one’s own country. It doesn’t matter whether you’re an American, Saudi, or a Brit.
@Medina…
the way you have offered the two choices is very interesting…if you are sitting on my side of the fence it looks a little different. Actually Iman, or lets say any woman and not use Iman as an example, does have FREEDOM OF CHOICE and FREE WILL. that means that if she choses to mess up her life by doing drugs, sex and other poor choices she can very effectively make a mess of things. The big difference you are missing is that here in the WEST you are not entirely defined for the rest of your life by your stupid mistakes and starting over is ALWAYS possible.
a person can grow and learn from their mistakes and start over again and no one will think badly of them for retrying. In fact, they will applaud them, support them and help them. We don’t worry about what other people do and how they choose to live their lives. Everyone is given free will and, although I know it might seem hard for you to believe, a LOT of people live lives that don’t involve going down the so called wrong path.
The reason the “wrong path” is to be avoided at all costs in your society is because it is so judgmental that there is no redemption from the wrong choices. a person who makes young foolish mistakes will carry the burden of that shame through out their lives because the society makes them live with that shame throughout their life. That, in a nutshell is the difference between the two worlds. We prefer people not make mistakes and do dumb things but if they do we don’t brand them and make them pay for the mistake forever. Therefore we need not have th whole society force them into behaviors that we deem appropriate.
In your society making a mistake is a lot more “fatal”. Hence the reason everyone is invested in everyone else’s business.
@Oby
” We don’t worry about what other people do and how they choose to live their lives.”
Then why do you americans worry about people in KSA and not let them choose to live their lives?
I think most of you are missing the point of this blog. It was to share Iman’s personal experiences. I do not think it should be seen as her bashing Saudi society. Abuse or whatever you see view her situation as happens all around the world. If I were to share my experiences in the US, I hope it would not be seen as bashing American society, but as experiences that have shaped who I am as a person and why I believe what I believe. Maybe I am wrong in thinking that maybe Iman intended something similar?
Rather than focusing on all the differences between Saudi Society and “Western” society, have any of you taken time to consider the similarities between the two? People are people no matter where you go in the world. Sure, there are cultural practices that may seem strange, but in the end, we are all just people.
Rather than getting angry at each other, have you taken the time to really listen and consider what the other person is saying and that maybe, just maybe they may have different experiences than you that have shaped their perception on life? Maybe we might have something to learn from each other? This is easier when we take the time to really listen to what a person is trying to say rather than just “hear” or “read” what they are saying.
I’m not saying I’m by any means perfect (hahaha-that’s a good joke!), and I’m not saying to stay silent if you disagree. Meeting people with different views, possibly conflicting ones, can help us to grow and learn a lot as an individual. Debating while listening can also help in this. I’m just pointing out that most of you come across as angry at the other person and quick to judge without taking the time to consider what is being said. In other words, please take the time to show each other respect.
I have noticed a lot of the same points being brought up against Saudi society and culture. Perhaps there is more to be learned about it than what is generally talked about amongst all of you specifically or people in general? Maybe by making an effort to listen we can all learn more about each other and other ways of living?
So here is another Saudi placing all the blame on Iman – in not so nice and polite words.
Perhaps people like Madina and Anonymous Saudi don’t realise that they are contributing towards building a negative image of Saudi Arabia in the democratic world by writing such comments.
They will do a much better service to Saudi Arabia by accepting that there are evils in their country which produce women like Iman and they should generate a legal and psychological support system for women like Iman.
Iman has dared to speak out and fight but there are many Saudi women who don’t have Iman’s guts to speak out and fight.
By the way, Iman is a Saudi woman who has specifically said that her kind of experiences are quite common in Saudi Arabia. Please see her comment above.
If as an outsider, I have to choose between the testimony of a non-Saudi or a Saudi man and a Saudi woman, I will naturally believe the Saudi woman in this matter.
Please also remember that Iman is not the only one – Another Saudi woman in her interview who suffered from polygamy and abuse also talked about the malpractices in Saudi families and the dysfunctional legal system.
I’ll accept her testimony because she is a Saudi woman, rather than a Saudi man’s or a foreigner’s testimony.
Manal in her interview and in many comments on this blog also criticised Saudi Arabia for its evils.
And Manal is not someone I like, but since she is a Saudi woman, I’ll accept her testimony rather than Saudi men’s testimony, who are most likely unwilling to let go of their controls and privileges – that’s why they are incensed because it hurts their control and privileges.
So this is not really an exceptional case, it’s rather the norm, as attested by Saudi women themselves.
As for “Saudi bashing” I don’t see any reason why Saudi Arabia should not be criticised for its evils, when every other country is criticised and sanctioned against for its evils.
I don’t see why Saudi Arabia should be pampered and should receive a special treatment in this matter.
If there are wrongs being done in Saudi Arabia, then we have as much right to criticise Saudi Arabia as any other country in the world.
Sorry, I don’t accept the argument of “Saudi bashing,” which is not a valid argument.
As for Indian evils – there are efforts being made in India to set them right and constant constructive suggestions and criticisms are being made by Indians themselves so that these wrongs can be set right.
The big questions are –
Where is this kind of parallel self-criticism in Saudi Arabia?
Where are the conscientious Saudis who want to genuinely look at the evils in Saudi Arabia and set them right?
Why should Saudi Arabia not be criticised if this atmosphere of self-criticism doesn’t exist there?
Anonymous Saudi, I haven’t given the Western women a run for their money; I live in a democracy, that’s why my ideas are similar to theirs. It’s not as if I’m trying to imitate them.
Sorry, I don’t accept the Islamic position that a woman’s testimony is not equal to a man’s.
In my country, a man accused of sexual assault by a woman is guilty till he proves himself to be innocent.
I sincerely wish Canada had this rule – it would have saved Iman a lot of anguish and trouble.
My point about bad things happening all around the world are like this (I can give you more if you’d like):
In the US, women may have more rights than in Saudi, but it wasn’t that long ago (less than 100 years) that they weren’t allowed the right to vote, were seen as more of the person caring for the household and less as the “breadwinner” and carried around a social stigma for life if they happened to get pregnant out of wedlock no matter the reason. There are still inequalities and prejudices against women in the US, just not as bad. An example would be discrimination in the workplace in male-dominated fields such as construction management.
In Saudi culture a man may get custody of his children in the event that there is a divorce. For all that people are claiming the US is better, what about the times the man SHOULD get custody in the US over his ex-wife, but doesn’t? Yes, I realize that the US is a bit more fair in custody battles, but it is still somewhat prejudiced in the woman’s favor.
One thing that is nice about Arab culture is that women aren’t expected to both take care of the home AND contribute to a good portion of the financial income by working full-time as they are typically expected to do in many areas in the US. This results in more hours that the women spend working, with a significant portion of it being unpaid, typically resulting in the men making more money overall and having more successful careers (and less stress, in my opinion) than women even if the woman wants to pursue a career herself. Other times, a woman is expected to stay at home with the children while they are young and is not expected to work. In RARE cases in the US, the wife’s career is seen as equally important to her husband as his career and/or the husband may stay at home with the children, etc. In some Gulf countries, it is normal for the woman to request one housekeeper/ maid if her husband can afford it (at least, this is what I was told by a friend so please correct me if it is different in Saudi Arabia). This means more free time for the wife. This may contribute to part of the reason some expat women complain of boredom. LOL.
Awareness on different social issues are being made in Saudi Arabia. Any culture is slow to change, and for a culture to retain its heritage yet become modern all at once is a very difficult thing to do. I would hate to see Saudi Arabia become “Americanized” as I find beauty in the differences between cultures (just as the differences between people are beautiful). The American culture is not without its flaws, either. I truly believe that the Saudi government is doing what they can to provide a better life for its citizens. However, if the majority of citizens aren’t ready for the change, they will rebel and cause major political upheaval. This means raising awareness and acceptance of certain key problems within Saudi Arabia, and this is best done by the people within the country who clearly understand the culture and what the best steps are to provide an outlet for change. People (not just Saudis) are generally more willing to listen to someone who understands the language and culture (preferably is a native) promoting change rather than someone who is from outside the culture, PARTICULARLY if the said person is being completely negative about Saudi culture. Nobody likes to hear that everything about their culture is wrong (especially when there ARE good things about the culture). In fact, I believe the same thing can be said about religion, and other topics, as well.
@Daisy
There are wrongs across the world, yes, but there are also good things around the world as well. Can you name five positive things about Saudi culture? Feel free to name five positive things about any other culture as well.
What are you doing to aid in change within your own country and/or within Saudi Arabia? How would you like others to help you with this change?
What are you hoping to gain by complaining about another culture? Are you looking to raise awareness to others, argue with someone, learn something new, what?
Daisy,
There are also women that falsely accuse men of rape/sexual assault. I am of the opinion that both sides should be considered equally important and that a fair trial should be conducted. It is very sad to hear of injustices of men getting away, but it is equally, if not more, sad to hear of a man imprisoned for years when in all truth he did nothing wrong.
Strangeone,
It’s not as if these men are thrown into prison without a trial. there is a trial, but the responsibility is on man to prove he is innocent. Medical tests of the woman are also done if necessary to ascertain that the incident really happened.
It’s usually easier for the man to get away from such incidents than for the woman to prove that such an incident took place. That’s why the onus is on the man to prove he is not guilty.
To expect the woman to bring evidence of assault is to deny her justice in many cases.
But the real point here is the State’s attitude towards the woman – a sexually assaulted woman is not perceived as the criminal in this system, as she is seen in the Saudi system.
This is not like the Saudi system where a woman has to lose her scholarship because she was assaulted by a man and the man is allowed to go scot-free by the Saudi as well as the Canadian authorities.
There is no need to eulogise the Saudi system and portray an imagined picture of Utopia in Saudi Arabia when Saudi women are criticising it, even if only a handful of them have the courage to do so.
Unless Saudis take a genuine critical look at their society, nothing can change there.
And it is not my responsibility to reform the Saudi society. It is the responsibility of Saudi Arabia and its men to reform it. I say men because they are the ones who are controlling the system.
I feel by making these comments you are diverting the attention away from the point that is being here that Saudi society needs reform as Saudi women are saying it. It’s time Saudi system should begin to listen to these women and take them seriously, rather than relegate them to the status of shadow and blame them if they ask questions.
Europe and North America may have granted the women the right to vote after they struggled for it, but Indian Constitution granted the women the right to vote right since its very inception in 1950.
The history of every democracy is different.
Daisy, neither Medina (and he can speaks for himself), nor I, blamed or accused Iman of anything. So give it a rest and stop twisting other people words. You still haven’t addressed the point I raised about the cast system in India, maybe that is not evil enough for you, and you see evil only in Saudi Arabia. By the way are you a paid member of AIPAC, becasue if you’re not you should apply because you’re doing them one hell of a good service.
Daisy,
I never meant to leave the impression that I thought of Saudi Arabia as a Utopia, just that like everywhere on the planet, it’s a mix of good and bad.
Once again, I am asking to gain insight into why you post on here- what is your purpose? I am a bit confused because you seem to want to point out the flaws in the Saudi system at every chance you get but do not seem to want to provide any possible solutions of your own. Do you have any solutions? If it is not your place to decide how to fix the system, then why do you see it as your place to criticize the system?
How do you think Saudi Arabia should go about making the necessary changes in government and socially among its people to change the view that sexual assault is the survivor’s (victim’s) fault? Or if you do not feel this is your responsibility, then why do you feel the need to highlight it and criticize them for it? Maybe there is some cultural difference here that I am just not understanding…?
Most of us that read this blog regularly are well aware of what you think and feel about Saudi society. So if you just want your opinion heard, yes it has been heard. Do you have a blog of your own? I imagine that it might help your opinions be shared with an even greater audience if this is what you want.
What is it that you are trying to achieve here? I’m confused…???
@ Strangeone,
Thanks for your understanding and I enjoy your neutral argument and it helps me to broaden my perspective. I am also trying my best to be an open mind. I do agree that America is a multicultural and multiethnic society and that individualism is embraced by people. I ado agree with you that for American people secularism, separating religion and government, is their best choice although religion still plays an effective role in the American politics. In contrast, in Saudi Arabia, the situation is very different where collectivism is strongly felt among Saudi people. Saudi is a homogenous society; a monolingual and a monoculture society. So, Saudis do not have all these social, ethnic and religious subdivisions that exist in America except to some extent in Hejaz region but they are still homogeneous with the entire Saudi people in terms of religion, culture, language, traditions, customs, history, and alliance. Saudis are only divided in one issue. They are divided about some religious issues within the society such as religious police, and women rights although people who speak about these issues are still minority. So, if you are familiar or close with the Saudi media, you will find columnists whining all the time about that Saudi applies a strict version of Islam but these issues are not left out it is an ongoing national debate among Saudis. I understand that you want the best for Saudis and I really thank you very much for that. If someone is talking or writing about some people it means he is interested and this is a good thing. My fear is that with this kind and good intention that you showed, the reforms that people are seeking here may create serious problems in the Saudi society. These serious problems may divide Saudi Arabia into many parts and cause a civil war. So, I say that gradual change is a very wise choice for reforms. But still there is a very important question that people should ponder about. Why Saudis should change their beliefs and their lifestyles?
@lynn,
I do not call anyone a name and I would expect that also from anyone else.
Pre-judgment of intentions is not a wise conclusion.
@ Anonymous_Saudi
Thanks for your post but I did not apologize for defending my argument and I do not think it is bad to be nice with others or in your argument.
@obby,
Your comment is very welcome and it is a positive addition to the argument here. With my respect to your claim, Actually, I did not miss that in America everyone is entitled by his behaviors. I know that very well. I think you missed one important thing also. Saudi people are a collective society. There is a big different between individualism and collectivism in terms of societies. I know that in America everyone is entitled by what ever he does but in a society like Saudi, it is unwise to be individual. People will not leave you alone. Your behaviors will be linked to your family and your family reputation. In Saudi context, reputation is equal to life in sense that without a good reputation among people you will live a hard life. I explained this issue in details in one of my posts in other articles here. So, a Saudi is not ready that his sister mess-up her life and the rest of her family bears the consequences the rest of their life and it may extend to the grand sons and daughters. I will give you an example, if a member of a family messed up her life and rumors spread among people that this family has a bad girl. Do you know what will happen? No one is going to marry from this family whether males or females. So, it will be very selfish of her if he/she does so. She/he must understand that their family life is hanged at their neck and they must be careful and protect their family too. Every Saudi family lives in one safe boat, if one of them fall down, they rest of the family will be down too. I hope you will consider saudi fears.
salam
That is unfortunate that an alleged rapist in India is guilty until proven innocent. I hope they don’t have capital punishment there. But this post isn’t about India, is it?
@Sarah MD – ‘Then why do you americans worry about people in KSA and not let them choose to live their lives?’
People in KSA get to choose how to live their lives? Doesn’t that go completely against Iman’s testimony here?
Is it really a horrible thing that we non Saudis are here giving our opinions and insight into how things work in OUR world? We can’t do anything to change Saudi society nor do we care to. WE don’t have to live there, unless of course we choose to.
@Strangeone – ‘Once again, I am asking to gain insight into why you post on here- what is your purpose?’
Perhaps we should propse that Carol insist that everyone state their purpose for being here before being allowed to post a comment. You first Strangeone.
@Medina – ‘…She/he must understand that their family life is hanged at their neck and they must be careful and protect their family too.
And how do you, personally, feel about that reality? Do you think that is the right way for a society to be or do you think a change might be better? I thought that Islam was supposed to have taken away that mentality and individuals had to pay for their own sins.
So, if as you say, Saudi is a collective society then it I
IS correct if we make claims against ALL Saudis when we see something that we would consider a flaw? I’m SO confused.
@Medina, I just want to add my two cents…
I do want to note, one of the major problems in many Muslim countries nowadays is the lack of diversity in their communities. Unlike the rich, and social inclusiveness of the past, many Muslim countries experience a very depressing socioeconomic state. One of the many reasons is that people are raised a certain way, as they mature it is unfortunately they only teachings they find appropriate or right. I do not want to throw around any false statistics, but a good percentage of these beliefs are culturally influenced. Racism is very common in KSA due to this, as many Muslim communities are not allowed to flourish and integrate (because they are non-Saudi), rather they are discriminated against, and mistreated. For those who are able to make it in, they form their own enclaves, with little means of surviving. Yet, many Saudis travel abroad to many Muslim and non-Muslim nations, enjoying the freedom of establishing businesses, and communities, yet they return nothing in favor, which I find hypocritical at its best.
I am also baffled as to how a place (historically) consisting of people of diverse cultures and of different countries, and ethnic groups as the Arabian peninsula has came down to what it is today?
However, one cannot hold the people accountable for such actions in the KSA, and the Muslim world at large. Corrupted governments is very common and a role-model, sadly, who are unwilling to change for the better, (a shocking ex. The Sharia Law (divine) does not apply to the Royal family, but to the rest of the citiznes, really?!?!).
I have had the opportunity to visit KSA twice, and I enjoyed my stay greatly. However, being born and raised in Canada, I have to say life is completely different, as is the treatment of women in both countries. I found that men do not respect a woman for who she is (in society). If I were a professional, who lived a simple, yet active life in KSA, it would be harder for me to go about my daily life, because I am restricted by the norms and customs of the people, which is not correspondant with my progressive state of mind. However here in Canada, the freedom to be who I am is something that I truly cherish (not bragging), but this shouldn’t even be an issue…at all, yet in male-dominate KSA, women have no say in any matter that relates to them…
All in all, its quite a challenge to see all these problems in the hub of the Islamic world. Usually humans work in a progressive state of mind, denouncing cultural practices that are irrational and wrong. As for Muslims, its almost like we have deteriorated from our initial state, when women rights and freedom was a reality 1400 years ago, and only dream in Muslim countries today.
The “rich life” in KSA for the upper class is something that many refer to when they want to display there enlightened way of life. However being rich is achievable, freedom is a right that every one is entitled to. I would rather live a poor but free life. I could care less about the numbers of Prada shades I own, when I cannot make the choice or desciosn to “go” and buy it.
@Daisy
“It’s not as if these men are thrown into prison without a trial. there is a trial, but the responsibility is on man to prove he is innocent. Medical tests of the woman are also done if necessary to ascertain that the incident really happened.
It’s usually easier for the man to get away from such incidents than for the woman to prove that such an incident took place. That’s why the onus is on the man to prove he is not guilty.
To expect the woman to bring evidence of assault is to deny her justice in many cases.”
Huh? You just managed to do away with the presumption of innocence – the foundation of the civilized legal doctrine – in one fell swoop. Are you describing reality or the world as it should be? And if reality, which country are you referring to? Because I can assure you, this is decidedly not so in the U.S., which means no crazy chick will be able to send my son to prison just by her say-so. Rape crimes are not different from any others; someone accused of rape is innocent until proven guilty. Remember, proving a negative is impossible!
Lynn,
I am here to learn more about Saudi culture and about others’ perceptions and views of various aspects of the culture. I want to know both good and bad things about the society since I may one day choose to live there. I am not saying that I ever will, just that I am currently exploring the option as my significant other is from there. I find it especially helpful to hear from Saudi citizens and what their perspective on their lives are as I am already well aware of how most people in “Western” societies tend to view Saudi Arabian society.
I did not realize that it was inappropriate to wonder why someone did what they did, especially when they are asking others the same kind of question. Asking why is how we learn and probably one of my favorite questions.
Maybe each person posting why they decided to follow and post on this blog would be a good topic? It might provide some insight into others’ lives and hopefully lead to more tolerance and acceptance.
Anyways, I think I am way off the topic of this posting, and I apologize for leading it down this path.
We heard Iman’s side of the story but we did not hear anything about what her parents have to say about her, or her liestyle and her behaviour from others. We heard only one side. How can we judge with justice hearing only one side? Iman will portray herself as the ‘innocent’ one here who has been wronged. And she has right to do that.
Her father may have a different story to tell.
it is strange that someone lives a life rebelling and sinning, and everyone applauds her and praises her. Has it something to do with us feeling less guilty for our own sins? I wonder…
And if someone is living a pious life, then he is backward, terrorist, fundementalist … etc. How bizarre!
It is also a sign that was predicted a long time ago that this exactly will happen.
Sometimes a woman has a part to play also in being raped.
Women in the west are not free as they think. They are slaves to the men. They have to wear tight-fitting clothes and high heels to look desirable. They will pose semi-naked for adverts reducing their status and values as a woman. Men see women only as a commercial or sexual toy. Does displaying women in cheap manner and using her for their own benefits mean freedom? Then is that the kind of freedom what women crave for? Is that what they call liberty? Is that upgrading the status of women? To ugrade is to lower herself? Tell me who is brainwashed.
Don’t even start on India and how evil it is. You only have to look at the leaders there to see the evils – in this biggest democracy of the world. You can see the women being burned because of dowry. Yes it is still happening, how many baby girls are murdered, how many couples are killed because they want to marry each other. How many babies are engaged to other babies to be married when they are older? What is the level of poverty there because the leaders are too greedy and preoccupied with their own needs.
Yet people only look at KSA and cry about the women there who by the way are not all Imans. There are many, many who are happy. A donkey will only look at the behind of another donkey and laugh, not knowing it has the same thing also!
NN,
” someone accused of rape is innocent until proven guilty”
But in India it is the opposite. You are guilty until proven innocent.
@Strangeone
“Awareness on different social issues are being made in Saudi Arabia. Any culture is slow to change, and for a culture to retain its heritage yet become modern all at once is a very difficult thing to do. I would hate to see Saudi Arabia become “Americanized” as I find beauty in the differences between cultures (just as the differences between people are beautiful).”
I disagree. Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and Blessing be upon him) is the prime example of making economic, political, and social changes of a sweeping nature, in which the Arabs went from being vicious barbarians to a people of advanced level of development in society marked by complex social and political organizations, and scientific, and artistic progress.
KSA, and the Muslim world are not ready for change, which is the underlying fact. Progress isn’t the proper term…what we need is to go back to basics…
I am truly fascinated by the history of the Muslims, and I have to say that we are truly an embarrassing bunch (21st century Muslims)…
I do agree though, we have to start from ourselves, and find solutions to problems in our communities, and countries.
@Medina
“I built my argument on a fact that Saudi is a Muslim society and its constitution is the Quran and the prophet’s literature. So, the legislators are religious people at the first place.”
I will grant you that KSA is a Muslim-majority country but Quran as a constitution is just another slogan that fatwa makers throw around. KSA’s constitution – if such a thing exists – has nothing to do with Quran. It has everything to do with the ruling family and the fatwa factory. Is it in the Quran that women need a man’s permission for a medical procedure, university education or a job? Or is it what the fatwa factory tell you the Quran says?
“Saudi people are followers not action makers.”
Sadly, this is true.
“Can you tell your husband that Islam is a false faith?”
My husband’s brain, fortunately, survived undamaged, and he does not need the fatwa club to tell him what his religion says.
“I will give you an example; a lady was asking sheik, “Sheik! is it ok to take off my clothes in the bathroom if I think there is jinn exist there? The sheik replied, “If you doubt that there is a jinn in the bathroom, it is layajooz (forbidden) to take of your clothes”
Are you defending stupidity and inability to think independently as a guiding approach to life?
“And they are the majority and majority rules.”
Rule of the majority is not absolute. The U.S. is a democracy yet some things here are considered unchangeable regardless of the majority view. Human rights are not up for vote. We cannot vote to reverse to racial discrimination (even if the majority supports that view), we cannot vote in support of gender discrimination (even if the majority agrees).
“And believe me Al Saud family is a noble family and they did great things to Saudi people regardless of some flaws that could happen with every government. ”
And believe me, it is in the direct interest of Al-Saud that you continue to hold them in high regard and believe them to be fathers of the nation and benevolent rulers. How else can you brainwash the population to believe that they don’t deserve any part in ruling themselves or have input into the way they are governed? How else can you make people put up with special royal family privileges funded by the public treasury, princely stipends, immunity from prosecution? Of course, by telling them that Al-Saud is a noble family and they do great things. So, no need to worry your pretty little head about how your country ought to be governed, or whether you deserve to participate in the government.
Medina,
I really appreciate how well you explain things about Saudi culture. It’s really helps me to understand the culture, customs, laws, etc. of Saudi Arabia better and why they are there. Thanks again for your views and good explanations! 
Thank you very much for your kind words. I do my best to stay open-minded, too!
Sarah MD…I dont see anyone applauding Iman for having sex and drinking etc…please show where someone did that…what we are doing is supporting her decision to get away from what she perceived as an abusive situation…and extending sympathy for what she endured.
Because she “sinned” you act as if THAT is the most important point of this whole post and commenting section. Cant you look past the sin and see the human being?
I think this is a very brave and strong woman. She is very brave to allow Bedu to interview her and post it.
SarahMD, I am sorry but I read a lot of the blog as well and the dysfunction is rooted in Saudi society. Yes, her family is dysfunctional, but that is the result of a whole society being dysfunctional.
How dare you add the adjective ”whoring” to Imam’s lifestyle, even if you put it into brackets! It is disgusting! Sad and sick!
No woman deserves bad treatment, let alone abuse from any man no matter what. No man has any rights over women no matter their lifestyle.
You make me really sick!
Imam’s blog is chronological, spanning several years. What she wrote 2 years ago is naturally different as what she thinks now. You are very limited in your understanding.
Or you are being very evil in trying to make her look bad by twisting her words.
And to imply that she is a criminal who habitually breaks the ”law”. For one thing there is no ”law” in KSA, for the other any normal healthy thinking person will break those imaginary ”laws” and minute of any day.
I am disgusted by you. If I could I would call you out for what you are: An evil, backbiting, heartless, soulless, demonic witch. And that wouldn’t be an attack btw, just a statement of fact.
But as we are not to be personal on this blog I will refrain from stating it.
UmmAdam, If you read Iman’s blog you would will see that many bad things happened to her in Saudi as well, The root is in the bad treatment of women in KSA, and the unlimited power which men hold over women, it is utterly corrupting.
Also, it was a Saudi co-student who attacked her, and the saudi authorities treated her very bad when the truth came out.
Seargeoh, it warms my heart to read your understanding comment, thanks for sharing.
Sarah, the Saudi co-student is the one who actually strayed from the ”right path”.
I suppose with the ”right path” you mean your own ”right path” without considering that other people might have other opinions on what constitutes the ”right path”.
In my opinion Imam traveled quite well on the ”right path”. And you, denouncing another human being’s suffering based on your imagined superiority in traveling the ”right path” are not.
That was @sara, not Sarah…
I think there are entirely too many Sarah’s on this blog, toooo complicated!
@Sarah MD
“Women in the west are not free as they think. They are slaves to the men. They have to wear tight-fitting clothes and high heels to look desirable. They will pose semi-naked for adverts reducing their status and values as a woman. Men see women only as a commercial or sexual toy.”
Please explain exactly how women in the West are FORCED to wear tight-fitting clothes and high heels against their will. Please include the description of enforcement mechanisms for this so-called obligation. Please explain the consequences and penalties of women who choose not to wear that or to appear in commercials.
“Men see women only as a commercial or sexual toy.”
And you know this how? Did you talk to every single man in the West?
“Does displaying women in cheap manner and using her for their own benefits mean freedom? Then is that the kind of freedom what women crave for? Is that what they call liberty? Is that upgrading the status of women? To ugrade is to lower herself? Tell me who is brainwashed.”
Let me explain this to you since you continue to pretend to understand. Actually, I suspect that you understand what freedom is but refuse to admit it because it will ruin your argument.
Freedom to study what you decide (not your father or your brother)
Freedom to travel (no need to get permission to leave your house or country)
Freedom to marry who you like (no permission from father and no forcible divorce by courts)
Freedom to read what you want, have medical procedures without approval from male in the family, freedom to practice any faith or none at all, freedom to work at the place of your choosing.
That, my dear, is what we call liberty.
Again, I suspect you understand this all very well, yet you prefer to examine only a very narrow slice of freedom and liberty, i.e. naked women in commercials. Frankly, I would rather be surrounded by naked breasts on billboards than have someone else decide what I should study, where I should work (or not work), whom to marry, and whether to leave the house.
Medina, I think that as you are a man yourself, you can have no idea really of what it means for a woman to live under all the restrictions in KSA.
About your points, very nicely and politely put, I commend you, but I don’t like them, here’s why:
1- to most people who experience it, material wealth means nothing if they do not have basic human freedoms. Which women don’t have. Moreover, she was arrested by the religious police for merely sitting in nature trying to be alone. trhat is persecution. People, and especially women, are guilty by definition. Of whatever crime the religious police like to put on them. That is severe mental oppression. No amount of silly superficial unimportant material possessions could compensate for that.
2- I think that her attitudes come from experiencing life in Saudi as a woman, no need for anybody to ”influence” her thoughts.
3- I am disgusted by your imagination, instead of believeing Iman’s writings at face value you choose to invent some medical mistakes, and then place them on her, and accuse her of medical malpractise.
Revolting! Very bad!
4- As you live in KSA youy know very well that that is exactly how Saudi men interpret and apply the religious rule for polygamy.
They add their own rule to it: they can lie about it to their wife/ves as well.
5- And so do you. Let me see, Iman wants to specialize, and gets a scholarship, and then it’s her fsault because she ”left him alone” and so he had no other choice but to marry a #2???
Are you for real???
Oh yes you are, just Saudi.
(PS Does that mean that while my, or any other woman’s significant other is far away we can get it off with other men? After all, if we are left alone we women really should have the right to have sex with somebody, right?)
6- The Saudi goverment has lots of money out of oil which they don’t share with the common Saudies the way other gulf countries like Qatar do. So I don’t think any Saudi students needs to be especially grateful, and after being treated as badly by them as Iman has been, nobody needs to feel any gratitude at all.
7- No woman should be told to blame herself for being sexually assaulted by a man. I do not really see what makes you think Iman has done to warrant you asking her to blame herself.
9- I think her current husband treats her like an equal and human being. That is very important to mentally healthy women.
10- Saudi people are more social? While you can get arrested and strip-searched if you have a cup of coffee in a public place with a man??? How does that compute as ”social”????
If you were to visit another family you get separated from your husband and get shoved off to the kitchen to sit with the other women, and in some families get to eat the left-overs after the men have finished with the food. How does that compute as ”social”???
11- No. No free woman would choose a life of opression and servitude. Not if they really understand what it means.
Only religiously brainwashed women prefer that.
NN, excellent comment.
Why do so many people immediately make out that somebody who has had bad experiences is Saudi bashing? How can relating ones personal experiences be construed as bashing?
Of course they are bad experiences, and many more women have these bad experiences in Saudi Arabia, virtually all I would say. Apart from the thoroughly brainwashed salafis who really enjoy oppression and suffering of course.
So how does anybody dare to blame her? to denigrate her story as ”Saudi” bashing? It isn’t bashing if it is true fact.
Fact is Saudi Arabia is a dysfunctional society, where all are oppressed. Where women are actually treated as brainless minors, are denied basic human rights, and are considered sinful and criminal even without any proof.
Saying so isn’t bashing, it is stating a fact.
I think this is a very brave interview, and the way I see it Iman is a woman with brains and backbone, and they did not manage to break her spirit.
Such women cannot be happy in Saudi Arabia.
It is only natural that a woman with spirit would rebel against a soul-killing dysfunctional oppressive society as KSA is.
Imam would probably not even have made any ”mistakes” if she had lived in a normal society.
She has done nothing to deserve being ill-treated. she has done nothing to be asked to look for blame of herself.
She needs to heal and remember she is an amazing woman. I am glad she lives in Canada now, I do not think KSA deserves women like her.
I second everything Anonymous_Saudi, on July 27, 2010 at 6:29 am wrote.
lol @ ‘hatebox’!
I thought the same thing about Daisy -you forgot Aafke, I really pity her, she also has no life.
I’ve been a long time reader of Carol’s blog (when I have the stomach to do so and not before eating)- I guess it’s a case of morbid fascination. The more time goes on, the more she reveals her true feelings. Brava Carol.
This blog is well-recognised as Saudi-bashing and anti-Islam, even by non-muslims who hate Islam – I even saw it once on the blogroll of some idiot white supremicist.
Medina, America is not tthe world, you could walk around in my country in thobe òr abaya, and nobody would blink an eye at you. So stop generalizing the planet Earth.
The FBI is especially interested in Saudis nowadays because the majority of the terrorists who flew the planes on 9-11 and were responsible for the murders of thousands of innocent human beings were Saudi. So don’t blame the FBI, put the blame where it belongs.
Blame the Saudi terrorists.
Why do people want to interfere with Saudi society? Because good people, with a heart and a feeling for justice, cannot stomach to see other people oppressed and treated like slaves. That’s why.
Oby, Women are held responsible for their bad choices, men are not. As we see in Imams story.
Actually women are held responsible for men’s bad choices as well as their own.
That is one of the things which is very wrong with KSA.
NN
it secured for a Saudi covered lady to walk a step there?
Yes, my sister- and mother-in-law walk hundreds of steps every day, abaya and hijabed, and return home in one piece.
Is it safe that Saudi students can take their bus when they go to the Uni?
Yes, it is. My SIL rides the metro to her school and survives somehow.”
These and all the rest of your answers made me laugh…I needed that!
You were on target.
However, Medina makes a point that societies with a tribal system are generally much more community focused (leaving aside the details of how they are handled) opposed to individualistic. I am from a society that values independence and individualism. That can be good and bad all at the same time. I personally would not want to be “cared for” based upon the decisions of the male leaders. That is part of the product of my upbringing.
anthrogeek10
“
SarahMD, there is no force in the west which controls and punishes women to wear the uniform as KSA does. You know that very well.
And tight fitting clothes and high heels are not half as effective in arousing the sexuality of men as the abaya and niqab is to muslim men.
For sheer sexual effect we need to put put Abaya and niqab top of the list. Far above black lace, lingerie and high heeled black boots.
And this objectifying, sexually arousing mode of dress is mandatory, and forced upon all women who enter KSA.
“It means they bash how my mum and my sisters and my other relatives live. It means they say that we are bad people just because we have different lifestyles. Do we deserve that people call us names just because we are different in our social life?”
It really is a shame that there is this bashing going on at all. I will say to you Medina that from a female Western perspective, mainly from a non-Muslim family, that it is quite unfathomable to imagine some of the restrictions that are places on women from your society. I assume you could agree that unless someone experiences things directly, it is speculation.
People from all societies are enculturated from the time we begin to open our eyes and we learn based upon our surroundings and from those who teach us. Granted, globalization is upon us and it knows no boundaries. One either “rides the wave or sinks” (Ahmed:2007). We are all humans trying to make in in this world although we all do it differently. We meet folks along this globalization route who change us, challenge us or downright irritate us.
I think that admitting that yeah…we all may believe in one thing or another but to come across to the “Other” as a beast, know-it-all does not help mend the bridge of acceptance.
I find it difficult to bash another cultural society unless it is related to a human rights issue (which is not the point here).
I have lots of respect for your society and people. Your country has an amazing history. There are good parts and bad parts in every society. In the USA, I think one of the negatives is a reduction of family connection (as a rule); not dependence, but genuine caring and affection.
But anyhow…..you believe what you have been brought up with and the same goes for me. All that said, we have working brains and can make logical, just decisions regarding fellow human beings and more of that needs to be done around the world.
anthrogeek10
A few points here, and some of you might be surprised to note that I will tend towards the compassionate end of the spectrum here.
First, Saudi Arabia is not alone in the world when it comes to having a misogynistic society and culture. It is much more visceral because of the abbaya, niqab and other items, but having traveled around the world I can tell you many other cultures are very close to the types of restrictions that are placed on women. This issue, like the majority on this blog, becomes nothing more than an excuse to bash Saudi, Islam and Muslims. It is getting REALLY boring so that is why I dont really post here anymore, neither do many of the original readers of this blog.
Second, it is really easy for those of you out there that have not gone through really traumatic times and events as children to second guess judge those of us who did.
I had a very bad time as a child and was forced to move out on my own at age 16 for my own health and safety. I can easily say that I did everything this lady did and some!
Does the fact that people like us had it really hard completely justify everything we did? Of course not, many people went through worse than us and did not do the things we did and ended up as completely well adjusted adults.
They just happen to be the exception. Children growing up in situations like this have really twisted role models and this in turn twists how they act and behave. To a certain extent I think kids who do things like this cannot be held 100% to blame. Circumstances are responsible for much of it.
Children and young adults learn to cope the best way they can, often with no help from anyone. The things they do to make things “better” usually arent good things.
The real test comes when people like us hit adulthood. Can they use their own logic, thinking and reasoning to change their own lives and lift themselves up above what they had to deal with?
Some people go through less than what I did or Iman did and end up addicted for life on drugs or booze. Some people go through more and end up fine.
When people like us grow up it is a slow process changing the way you were raised and your dysfunctional ways of dealing with it and changing yourself and your habits into something healthy.
I havent read her blog so I cannot comment on what she is doing now. Hopefully she has grown past the nonsense she and others of us did to try and forget what we were dealing with and has moved on.
Personally, I find that those who have suffered through really hard times in their lives are those that are the most able to be compassionate. They understand the depths and despare and the hell that this life can bring. Others, who have never been in our shoes, are usually those who cannot understand, cannot be compassionate and are the most judgemental.
My verdict, for what it’s worth? She gets a pass on everything she did when she was younger. People should also look at her, as an adult, as someone who is getting better and moving forward. It is a process, not something that happens over night.
One isnt a beaten, abused and psychologically tortured child and young adult one year and completely out of the woods the next year.
As a Muslim, I would hope she can try to see beyond the idiots who use our religion to justify their actions.
For those of you out there who want to judge, maybe you should remember the old phrase here in the West:
“There, but for the grace of God, go I”.
Little OT but not really…
If anyone wants to understand the roots of tribalism and how tribal cultures are connected to globalization (among other facinating topics), please, please read,
Journey into Islam: The Crisis of Globalization
Akrar Ahmed
Scholarly, yet highly readable material.
anthrogeek10
@Anthrogeek
Actually, what Medina does is jump from argument to argument when his previous position gets discredited. This is how the conversation went:
Medina:
“Iman, where is your Iman? Aren’t you sorry you left your life of luxury for these few trifling freedoms?”
NN:
“Why don’t YOU come and try living a life of luxury while I will make all the decisions for you and see how you like it?”
Medina:
“Nyah Nyah. You don’t have these freedoms either!! Can I ride the metro in the national costume and not be trailed by the FBI?”
NN:
“Yes, you can. Want to do it or not?”
Medina:
“Hmmm never mind….but you see, we only restrict our ladies’ freedom and make all the decisions for them because we love them and protect them. And besides, we are there to catch them when they fall, whereas in the U.S. they are told to go to hell.”
NN:
“But she did get in trouble and her family did nothing to help her. She said so.”
Medina:
“Dunno…but never mind. Anyway, it’s OK because KSA is a Muslim country and we all believe in doing things our way. We are the majority. And we like living this way. And our government is very very nice.”
NN:
“No it isn’t, and it’s not a government, it’s a monarchy. And at least one of you doesn’t like living this way.”
Medina:
“Wah wah. You are saying my mum and sister are bad people?”
NN:
“No, silly, your mum and sister are good. It’s the system of laws in your country that sucks.”
Medina:
“Grr….very nice having a discussion with you.”
I rest my case.
And of course, no discussion of Saudi is ever complete until someone brings up AIPAC!! You go sister! Blame it on the Jooooos!
“11- No. No free woman would choose a life of opression and servitude. Not if they really understand what it means.
Only religiously brainwashed women prefer that.”
It is, from an anthropological perspective called enculturation. How can female members of the socitety prefer anything else if they were not exposed to it??! While KSA does not grant the females as many CIVIL RIGHTS as they do men or we are granted in the West, please recall that even in 1972, in NY State, females needed a guardian to get a checking account of their own.
Alright, no need to reply, I am outta here regarding this convo.
anthrogeek10
@ NN and SARAH
Personally speaking women, regardless in America the free, or Saudi Arabia, have always been subjugated by men whether white, black, Muslim, Christian or Jew. As a Muslim myself, I am liberated and free (because I stand by it and will fight for it) and I am very grateful to God, and the environment I live in. However the free that NN is referring to is “I can do whatever I want, as long as its not a threat to society”, whereas the free that Sarah MD is referring to is “society comes first and that our culture is our priority and anything that defies it is not permissible.”
STOP REFERRING TO CLOTHES…LIKE ITS AN ISSUE…
In KSA some women find peace and freedom in wearing the niqab whereas others are forced to. In America many* women put themselves in a situation where they force themselves to attract men (starve themselves to fit in the cute miniskirt so he would ask her out), and to feel accepted by society. Trust me, I may be young, but I have seen it happen to many times. Both are a form of abuse on women, which contribute to a rise in harassments, which is one of the main reasons why I decide to wear the headscarf. When I read about women in high levels of corporations at Wall Street they truly are my inspiration because as they say its not easy to succeed in a male-dominate world, but when you read their profile, the last thing that comes to mind is America the Free.
Also and unfortunately the statistics of domestic abuse in America is second to that of France, in which women who are murdered by the spouse or significant other is highest in the world. The highest rate of rape cases in the world is in NY in which a women is sexually assaulted every 2 minutes. If we compare the rates of professionals in the workforce, gender equality is a major issue, in which women are discriminated against. Compare the no. of political figures that make up the government, institutions? Surprisingly America is still waiting for its first female president. A major nightmare for many feminist is Hollywood, where women are exploited only to satisfy the pleasures of men and I know who may have heard the saying that “Sex sells”….umm total disgrace. Did I forget to mention Fashion…and the young boys who I hear on the ride back home – referring to girls they met at clubs as “bitches” and “hoes”: DISGUSTING.
In the end there are something’s of the KSA society that I prefer, and same goes for America, but both countries have a long way to go in order to establish an equally just society. However as young women myself, I know that freedom of women rights is NO WHERE near perfect in any place in the world. So, instead if bickering and arguing I suggest we all work together and fight for each others rights.
@Mona
“In KSA some women find peace and freedom in wearing the niqab whereas others are forced to. In America many* women put themselves in a situation where they force themselves to attract men (starve themselves to fit in the cute miniskirt so he would ask her out), and to feel accepted by society. ”
Yet again, I find my point is missed. These women, are they mandated to starve themselves? Is there miniskirt police coming around and issuing citations for extra pounds? Are they shamed, denied services, punished, demoted, expelled from school, fired or otherwise disenfranchised because they are not wearing a miniskirt?
I am not denying women do stupid things to their bodies, but hey, you can’t legislate against stupid. The key distinction is, the law does not require it, and the society does not punish you for not fitting into a size 2. Getting asked out by boys of your choice is not a human right. Get my point?
The rest of your comment can be boiled down to “You people ain’t perfect either.” Guess what? I don’t have to live in a perfect society to see what’s wrong with others.
We don’t know if the rates for rape in New york is the highest, after all, while New York might keep up statistics, many other places do not. And those are typically many of the places where women are worth less than men.
You can see that rape of women increases as their status diminishes. The lower the regard for women the higher the rape statistics. Keeping this in mind I’d say that there are many countries where women are held in very low status, are even by law second class citizens, I take it there will be much higher rape statistics in those places if they were being honestly kept.
@Anthrogeek,
Thanks for your perspective! I am somewhat of an armchair anthropologist, so it’s nice to hear from the real deal that my observations mesh with yours.
My question, do you think it is easier for an individual from a tribal society to adjust to an individualistic society, or vise versa? If you have the energy or desire, I’d love to see your take on this.
NN, ”Yet again, I find my point is missed. These women, are they mandated to starve themselves? Is there miniskirt police coming around and issuing citations for extra pounds? Are they shamed, denied services, punished, demoted, expelled from school, fired or otherwise disenfranchised because they are not wearing a miniskirt? ”
ROTFL!
I am scared to step out of the door! The Immodesty Police (The Commission for the Promotion of Sexyness and the Prevention of Dowdyness) might be along! You know what they do don’t you?
They have just ordered an enormous supply of miniskirts, they set up roadblocks, and every woman who gets caught wearing unapproved clothing (slacks, long skirts, long coats etc) is forced to change into mini skirt, all long-armed-shirts have to be exchanged for tanktops or small shirts with show cleavage, also all flipflops, boots and sneakers have to be surrendered and are replaced with stiletto heels.
The men all really enjoy this.
I hate living in the West where all women are so oppressed.
“Cant you look past the sin and see the human being?”
I love this.
Thank you.
Goodness me, all these comments are directed to me?!!! I hope that I have the time to respond to these comments and I will do my best to be heard. By the way, I can bite ladies even though I enjoy the discussion with you.
@Lynn,
“IS correct if we make claims against ALL Saudis when we see something that we would consider a flaw”
I think that is what people are doing here and they already generalised the flaws to the Saudi society, so why are you still confused? You can share them the party if you believe them.
@Mona Alas,
“Unlike the rich and social inclusiveness of the past, many Muslim countries experience a very depressing socioeconomic state”
Ask Romanians, Greeks, Hungarians, Russians, Brazilians, South America in general, North Korea, etc, are they Muslim countries? (:
“…as many Muslim communities are not allowed to flourish and integrate (because they are non-Saudi)..”
It is very easy to make a claim. I have the moon at my hand.(:
“….I have had the opportunity to visit KSA twice, and I enjoyed my stay greatly…”
You enjoyed your stay greatly and you are still complaining about Saudis ): .
….”The “rich life” in KSA for the upper class is something that many refer to when they want to display there enlightened way of life….”
Mona, I am poor Saudi but I have my mind too.
Well, I do agree with you that social restrictions are against Saudi progress in all fields and I agree with the last things you said except the some words that hold negative attitudes but I do not mind them, it is your right to say so.
@NN,
Do not go into politics please lets us for culture otherwise you will open a big door against yourself. And I do not defend stupidity, I am telling you that people are adhered to listen to fatwa and they are scared to commit sins. doh
The other comment, the conversation, it made me LOLOL. Thanks for it
@ Strangeone,
You are a lovely person and I wish many people are like you. Thanks for your nice words.
@Aafke-art, the one who opened the fire on me
Before I continue responding to your points, I will ask you this important question here.
Did you hear from other parties whom Iman is complaining about? Why did you believe Iman before you listen to others?
“I think that as you are a man yourself, you can have no idea really of what it means for a woman to live under all the restrictions in KSA.”
I have sisters and I care about them as much as I care about my eyes. I serve them and all their needs are responded. They are Muslims and they keep their beliefs. They also care about me and care about our family and they are very responsible ladies and they will never disappoint their family just to satisfy silly desires forbidden according to their Islamic beliefs.
You made a lot of points. But all your argument is based on a perspective of a western lady not a Muslim lady who believes in Islam and belongs to a Muslim family has its own social norms. You missed also that I thought that she is still a Muslim and that is why I raised that questions for her. It is to remind her about the other side of the story. She can accept and she can refuse it. I did not judge her and I did not made statement against what she did. All my comments were questions and I made it just for her person not for anyone else. Those questions that I raised to her are motivated by my sympathy and care. And it should not be interpreted based on negative attitudes she hold against Saudi society and call it hate. She is saying why hate? And I would ask, why she calls everyone disagree her a hate? Or we must believe every single word she says otherwise we are enemies? Well, I am sorry I myself can not believe or disbelieve her claims because I did not hear other parties. I only sympathize with her suffering at this time and I feel sorry for her that she passed through difficult time and I wish her a best life and peace.
Generally speaking about the points that you have raised, a Muslim lady should know her faith and do not go against it if she really believes in her faith otherwise she must reveal that and say she is not a Muslim anymore. Then she will be free from all these duties. Also your responses did not consider what I said about the reputation and how Saudi family is structured. Your response also did not consider the responsibility of a member in a family.
I will give you an example of such kind of responsibilities.
Imagine that you are a Saudi lady and free to do whatever you do. People will think about the consequences such freedom. 1) If you get pregnant from a relation outside marriage and your boyfriend left you alone, who is going to be responsible about this kid? Who is going give his name to that kid? Consider in your answer the thing that I mentioned about the reputation in sense that it is equal to life in Saudi society.
In case you choose to be a free lady who can live like any American lady. I will agree with you but we will make a deal. If you accept this deal you are free to do whatever you can do, sex, dating, drugs, name it…….
The deal is as following:
“You will never ever hold my name and I will never ever be responsible about you. You will have your own name. I will announce that publically and document that officially that aartfake is not anymore from my family and she does not belong to us and our family does not belong to her”
If you accept this as a Saudi Muslim lady, then you are very welcome to do whatever you like.
There were some political points have been raised but I do not wish to go into politics but if you have some tears for Saudi ladies, why do not you drop them for Iraqi and Afghani orphans?
“Cant you look past the sin and see the human being?”
Let us just imagine that the national security is broken in a country and everything went in chaos. You will know then know who “the human beings” is
Salam.
@Anthrogeek,
Thanks for your perspective!
Your welcome.
I am somewhat of an armchair anthropologist, so it’s nice to hear from the real deal that my observations mesh with yours.
I am still a learning student and one who tries my best to be diplomatic and sensitive to the plights of my fellow earthlings.
I am not perfect and can exhibit some ethnocentricity much to my chagrin. I think all anthropologists struggle with issues that are considered human rights opposed to cultural and I am no exception. These are ethics in action my friend. 
My question, do you think it is easier for an individual from a tribal society to adjust to an individualistic society, or vise versa? If you have the energy or desire, I’d love to see your take on this
That is a great question and one I do not have the answer to. I know when I was married to a liberal Pakistani, it would have been quite different than if he was super conservative. He believed I had a right to pursue my dreams. I spent 3 weeks living with a family in Pakistan (not his family) and felt stifled with all the people around (3 generations) and did not know how the women dealt with others in “their” kitchen. This was before my anthro days. I think each type of society would have different sets of challenges related to this dramatic shift…..
anthrogeek10
@anthrogeek10
Sorry I forgot to respond to your point. I agree with you but what I can do? Where is the power the change beliefs lasting for more than thousands of years? Even if Saudis believe what you are saying, they do not have the power to change. Can you change your own beliefs now? lol
salam
Actually, what Medina does is jump from argument to argument when his previous position gets discredited. This is how the conversation went
I know. I just did not want to be involved in the pettiness that is all….
anthrogeek10
Medina,
@anthrogeek10
Sorry I forgot to respond to your point. I agree with you but what I can do? Where is the power the change beliefs lasting for more than thousands of years? Even if Saudis believe what you are saying, they do not have the power to change. Can you change your own beliefs now? lol
Interesting that you mentioned this. As a matter of fact, I will tell you a story. Prior to my marriage to a Pakistani, I did not have a whole lot of respect for my mom for various reasons and having been exposed to a cultural system in which respect for elders is paramount, I made a dramatic shift change in my thinking. I now tend to overlook alot of our disagreements which has helped foster forgiveness on my part.
There is such a thing as cultural evolution (which tends to happen with an increase in globalization). exposure to other ways of acting and being allow people to make decisions about how they behave and thus the cultural evolution. 1000′s of years of tribalism is not easy to change. I would not expect that kind of dramatic evolution. Tribal societies trace their lineage back to a common ancestor and that is an important part of their identity. I think there is nothing wrong with a balance.
So….my exposure to Muslim majority societies has helped me evolve into the person I am. I am more educated about the world and about the people who share the planet with me. There are certain things, such as my fiercely independent nature that is difficult to change.
anthrogeek10
@anthrogeek10
hehehe, discredited, in what court ladies? The issue is that I do not have time to verify every single point raised here. I have other things to do. My major purpose is to tell you how things are going in saudi to not get misguided.
going to Uni again
salam
@anthrogeek10,
Mismatching reply is going again lol.
I love your candid response. and believe me there are many beautiful things in our society and it is great values and it make you feel you are a true person that people respect you and give you very much attention when you speak and they beg you just to visit them or have dinner with them. You can not imagine how much they prepare their house and prepare food etc just to please you. I feel sorry that people just point finger to the taboo and undermine other beautiful things.
Thanks again for your candid response and I will encourage you very much to be so lovely with your mum. My goodness, when i just think about my mum now my tears dropped out. May God bless mums.
take care
salam.
Medina
There is good and bad everywhere around this globe and finding the balance to make just and fair choices is not easy at times.
Your right that Arab societies in general will feed a stranger to the gills.
I second that quality. lol
anthro
Medina,
how am I “mismatching” you? We can have an intelligent discussion without 100% agreement. It is respect that is the important thing. Moreover, it is also about learning about other perspectives. If one is confident and secure with him or herself and beliefs, they will not be so defensive. I am just being general here.
anthrogeek10
Afake wrote about Sarah MD:
“I am disgusted by you. If I could I would call you out for what you are: An evil, backbiting, heartless, soulless, demonic witch. And that wouldn’t be an attack btw, just a statement of fact.”
You are one class act, aren’t you Afake !!!!!!!!
You’re, such a charming woman, real class, aren’t you Afake !!!*
If I may interject in Anthrogeek and Medina’s discussion… and this relates to what you are talking about…
The things I really admired about the Saudi culture and the things that really frustated me, in retrospect, I think had to do with this tremendous change in a tribal society in such a short amout of time.
I loved the sense of integrity and honor that was earned by mere survival (old). In modern times, this sense of honor seemed to turn into arrogance. e.g. “I’m special because I’m 220 and part of this tribe. vs. “I’m special because I’ve actually survived in this harsh climate. (old)
I guess I always admired the bedu, and their fortitude and “aura”. And realness. What surprised and confused me was this intricate social way of “face”, which to me seemed false and fake. I could never really know if someone really liked me for me, or if I was just being shown this wonderful hospitality.
. It was very difficult for me to adjust the time we spent there. I told my husband that it would have been easier for me to adjust 100 years ago, when I could be out in the open and in nature, even without A/C!. The walls of the homes surrounding me just about drove me insane! I felt like the world was closing in on me…which brought me to another question. How did the Bedu go from open air and land to walled, closed- in living quarters? What did it do to their psyche? Both male and female. I know it really affected my mental health in a dramatic way.
@sarah md….
sorry for not replying sooner. Been feeling a touch sick and not in full form.
First, this blog is about saudi Arabia…that is why I and everyone else is talking about Saudi Arabia…if it was about France we would be talking about that instead.
I have my opinions about things in KSA as I know them and I admit I don’t know as much as someone from there would and I don’t assume that I do. In general, when I give an opinion you will find it often revolves around women and their rights and how things in KSA affect them. Naturally coming from the West, I see things very differently than someone from there. But for me anyway the one constant that runs through MY opinions about KSA (usually) is how things affect women . As a woman I want all women to be empowered to live the best lives that they can. And of course, I think that KSA does not give them the best ability to do that. they do not have the same choices or freedoms that we have here. HOWEVER…if a woman is happy living in that particular environment then I have FAR less to say about it. It is not up to me to decide for her how she should live. BUT as a woman I cannot help feel a sense of solidarity and empathy for them and want them to have freedoms of choice rather than a man to tell her how she can live.
As for us Americans worrying about you saudis (as you put it) I just explained my position above. Medina’s comment was derogatory and indicated that the Saudi way was the only way or certainly the best way and that in the West no one can live a good life without dragging themselves through all the muck and debauchery. Someone even stated that it was a cesspool. Fair enough to have an opinion, but please do not stand there and pretend that Saudis don’t have opinions about Americans and are the injured party. that would be too hypocritical. and many people do not experience the plethora of bad behavior opportunities that exist. remember I said that people have free choice and also are expected to take responsibility for their bad choices.
As I said in my statement, Americans are FAR less judgmental and more forgiving than Saudis and would not make someone pay for a mistake they made in a moment of weakness and stupidity for the rest of their lives. We believe in redemption of the human spirit with or without God as the person chooses and would certainly cheer on someone who chose to “clean up their act”. that does not mean we don’t recognize wrongdoing when we see it or that we even excuse it. They will get their butts kicked BUT if they learn their lesson and mistake people will not hold it against them forever. A young girl who has sex and gets pregnant will not be labeled a slut forever, a drunk who becomes sober will not be shunned as a drunk forever, someone who is struggling with drugs and is able to overcome their issues is not labeled a druggie forever. Here in the West people get a second chance and are, in general, forgiven if they try hard and show that they are making an effort.
In KSA people are too judgmental and a slip up could cost a girl (and her family) to be labeled for life. that to me is a ridiculous and very difficult way to live and makes everyone interested in everyone else’s business and practically guarantees that people will be “keeping score” about who is more righteous than the next. It doesn’t change the bad behavior; it only forces it underground so one is not caught and makes for some very neurotic people who then themselves become judgmental as a way back to righteousness.
@oby,
Your previous comment is very much in alignment with my point of view. How can one be a “real” person in that society? EVERYONE makes mistakes. Oftentimes out best lessons are from our mistakes and weaknesses. How do we learn about ourselves or others if we cannot freely admit it to trusted persons, rather than having to maintain a “facade” or “face of perfection” so as not to taint my entire family?
Look Iman, what your interview has transpired,,,,a discussion of how we can be our authentic selves!
I very much felt that dysfunction while in Saudi. My entire existence as I knew it depended on the good graces of my husband. I am very fortunate that he is a good man, because that fear did creept in….if I tell him my true feelings about this, or that, what if he gets angry and takes the kids away from me? I’d have absolutely no recourse! I actually felt like I had to manipulate my actions and emotions…just in case, even though he gave me no reason for this. It was the environment that just seeps into your pores.
@Medina…
I posted my above post to Sarah MD before reading yours…sorry as I said some of the same things you addressed to me. Believe it or not I understand what you say far better than you might think. I am married to an Indian and Indian society is in many ways similar to Saudi society. when I started reading these blogs I was kind of freaked out at how similar they are in some of their attitudes and cultural norms. they too have a collective family mentality and if a family gets a bad reputation through a girl or boys actions it will reflect badly on the family and can affect marriage possibilities for the rest of the family. Individualism is not encouraged. So I do get that…the thing is that India is changing in some ways and because of their democratic system even though they have a social structure similar to KSA, women still have more rights and the system is not heavily skewed towards men. So I have lived and seen an example of a society that has the same collectivism as KSA, but gives an equal shake to women through it’s laws.
Now, I know everything is not perfect and rosy so please don’t think I am saying that. But as India is modernizing and changing it is struggling with the change of some of it’s norms and learning how to adapt. they still have the caste system “unofficially”. Boy babies are still preferred over girls which I think has a lot to do with the caste system and the practice of dowry, but I believe that is primarily in the under educated, and poor people. In the more educated society girls are treated the same as boys…they are educated, encouraged to work/have a career, they are treated as equal as the boys. but it wasn’t always that way…they too, had a sort of Mahrem system I believe…but it is changing and in my opinion for the better because they now have choices that were not available a few generations ago. I think Saudi can do the same thing without losing the essence of what makes them Saudi. It will be a struggle for sure, but people always struggle to change…everyone likes the status quo. But a society must change and grow to remain globally relevant. that doesn’t mean that they have to abandon their culture entirely…
@oby,
Have you read “Shantaram”, by Gregory David Roberts? I read that last summer and found in intriguing!
@Kristine…
Haven’t heard of it but I will look it up. I have jsut ordered “three cups of tea” on the suggestion of another regular. when I get it from the library I will put in my request for that one. Thanks!
Oby, I am reading Greg Mortenson’s second book now and at times I find myself wiping tears. We are so blessed here! I hope you like “Three Cups of Tea.” I found it a good way to learn about another culture.
Medina…
Would you mind emailing me?
wildlife_iguanas@yahoo.com
thanks
anthrogeek10
@suzanne,
promiise me you will read Stephanie Saldana’s spiritual memoir, “The Bread of Angels” next! That’s the one that takes place in Syria.
People have asked me why I’m here and it was my natural instinct to tell them it’s none of their business as it’s not their blog. But I restrained myself from saying it.
Now Oby has explained partly why I’m here – because as she has said Indian and Saudi societies are very similar in many ways, because throughout history West and South Asia have interacted with each other.
However, India has taken the path to modernise itself, following a democratic model and there is enough self-criticism within India from the Indians, which is regarded as healthy.
Honestly, freedom to criticise their country is the greatest freedom Indians value after the right to vote.
I’m not saying India is a Utopia as some people have claimed. But I’m saying we have an atmosphere to acknowledge that problems exist in our society which need to be rectified.
I’m sure it’s the same for all Western countries.
So it intrigues me that despite all the oil money, Saudi Arabia insists upon living in the absurdity of 7th century and keep its society dysfunctional.
I asked some very straight questions from the Saudi men and the apologists of Saudi Arabia –
Where is the atmosphere of self-criticism in KSA?
Where are the conscientious Saudis who want to genuinely look at the problems in KSA and try to think how to solve them?
If they don’t have this atmosphere, why should they not be criticised?
If a woman like Iman comes out and says there are problems in KSA society, why shouldn’t she be taken seriously?
All I have seen here is that the Saudis and the apologisst for Saudis have chosen to not address the fact that there are problems in KSA, which at least some women like Iman are talking about.
Rather than facing this reality, they divert the topic of discussion into
asking people like me why I’m here (meaning why I’m asking these uncomfortable questions – I’m not sure they would ask me this if I had been an apologist for KSA, painting an imaginary rosy picture of it) – add Aafke to the list of difficult women now.
Blaming the West for whatever evils it doesn’t or does have (which doesn’t really repair or justify the dysfunctional society that KSA is)
Criticising India (Same as above)
Blaming Iman for her life choices
Making it out as an isolated case (despite the fact that other Saudi women have said this too and Iman has said this is a common phenomenon in KSA)
Criticising the people for daring to say Saudi Arabia has problems by calling them Saudi bashers (I have said I don’t find this argument logical)
In short they have resorted to every trick in the book to deflect the argument away from discussing the problems in KSA which women face, which produce the women like Iman.
In short, I get the idea that Saudis are insensitive people who want to keep their society an oppressive, retrograde, dysfunctional one and want the world to applaud them rather than ask them why they have so many human rights violations in their country.
If every country in this world is asked to be accountable for human rights violations and sanctions are placed against countries for this, why should Saudi Arabia be spared in this matter?
Why do Saudis expect this special treatment for themselves from the world?
Why shouldn’t the Saudis acknowledge their flaws and try to rectify themselves?
LOL! @ *– add Aafke to the list of difficult women now.*
There are some people here who should hate our guts. If they were to like us I would consider myself a lost human being. A waste of Earth’s resources.
Aafke
“Yes, her family is dysfunctional, but that is the result of a whole society being dysfunctional.”
Don’t forget that she was not born in Sauid and her father was not working in KSA so there are other societies also involved here.
BTW, Iman used the word “whore” for herself and that is why I used to in quotes or brackets.
You are the evil one for putting and twisting words in my comment, You obviously have not read my preivious comments on this post. I have stated that her condition is because of her upbringing and not the country or society. People like to blame the society as it is easier than blaming people or themselves.
There are many who took bad experiences in a postive way. Like some took it upon themselves to help others in the same postiion but Iman handled it by rebelling. There is always something positive we can do to the bad things that happen to us. I did not put the complete blame on her. Shame on you for putting words in my comments to suit your emotions!
“I am disgusted by your imagination, instead of believeing Iman’s writings at face value you choose to invent some medical mistakes, and then place them on her, and accuse her of medical malpractise.
Revolting! Very bad!”
I feel that you did not really read what Iman wrote. She is the one who talked about her medical mistakes and yet you attributed it to a commentator, the same you did to me. You are very good at this.
“The FBI is especially interested in Saudis nowadays because the majority of the terrorists who flew the planes on 9-11 and were responsible for the murders of thousands of innocent human beings were Saudi”.
I am laughing too hard my sides ache! You are not reading much are you. It must be because you are too busy travelling. 9/11 is the biggest lie of all.
“For sheer sexual effect we need to put put Abaya and niqab top of the list. Far above black lace, lingerie and high heeled black boots”.
Yeah, please tell that to your naked women so that they will start to cover up. Tell that to your pervert men too.
You should read more on what Mona Alas write and maybe she will put some sense into your freakin brain! She maybe a lot younger than you but alot wiser, I must say. I could say more but since we are expected to be courteous in this blog, I refrain.
@Mona Alas
“Sell sells” .. I heard that being justifed in another thread in this blog to my comments. Sickos! As if … !
You said what I am trying to say in your comments.
Women are struggling in a man’s world in the West. Hollywood puts an emphasis on women as sexual toys and that is very clear. And women do not mind participating in this because they want to be accepted in that society. Isn’t that abuse of another kind? Look at the fashion industry, one can only laugh at what they are dishing out. Are women really told that this is the way to preesent yourself? There are no mini skirt police because men just enjoy women to be that way. It gives them only pleasure and laugh behind their backs. They love to make women look silly and naive-like.
For people who say that Iman acted the way she did because of society, know that there are rape victims in West who completely turned their lives around – for the better. I happened to know one just brave lady who was born deaf and was abused and beaten, made fun of … even by her then husband, while she was pregnant leading to miscarriage. Stalked by her ex-husband … etc. Did she rebel and run away and hide in some other country? No, she turned her bad experience in to a postive one. She learnt sign language on a professional level and concentrated on teaching deaf children, travelled to Russia to teach there, then back to her home country and married a man who saw her for who she is … She never blamed her parents, neither her country, not even on those people who tortured her; but she realised that God chose her to have these experiences so that she can help others and to finally end up being happy. She is blessed with a beautiful baby – who did not inherit the deaf gene.
One can either make it a postive or negative.
Oby
You seem to be the rational one with your words, unlike other uncouth people here.
How do you know that Saudis are not forgiving? It is virtuous to be forgiving. We, as Muslims, are taught to forgive. We are not allowed to expose our sins to the world (as Iman has done). A person who is aware of the sins of another person is not allowed to spread it. And of course one is not labelled a sinner for life. I don’t know where you got the idea that Saudis do not forgive.
Sarah MD,
Are you a Saudi?
@Daisy
Not that it matters but I think I have mentioned before that I am mixed.
@oby,
you are welcome but I have a question, why did you consider my comment derogatory? I was talking to whom I considered a Muslim. I did not say that western life is not good. And I do not know how did you conclude that from my comment? Please read my comments again and you will get my points very well.
@anthrogeek10.
No problem. I will email you soon. I said mismatching reply because I realized that I missed one of your posts after I sent my response to you. You sent it while I was writing a response to you. It was mismatching time in responding.
@Sarah MD
Saudis are notorious for holding grudges.
And if you spent a good amount of time around some Saudi families you would learn that some of them do label others as sinful for life. Not all of them recognize that we should forgive and forget.
For lack of a better example, and I’m sorry to use this, but honor killings could be said here.
If they understood the principle of forgiveness then they wouldn’t kill their loved ones for making mistakes.
I am Muslim, I do not condone blatant sinfulness but my god we are human!
That’s why I stated earlier that I loved Coolred’s earlier words she posted: “Cant you look past the sin and see the human being?”.
We will make mistakes…again and again until we die.
It is so unfair to be labeled, judged and mistreated because of this.
I have not commented on Iman’s plight and do not plan to. I have my own problems, my own sins…what can I say about another person whom I don’t even know personally?
I think comments for Bedu’s interviews should be turned off or heavily monitored in order to maintain focus on the interviewee and to avoid inappropriate comments directed toward them.
I read her blog…I hear her pain and can only pray that one day she finds peace with Allah, herself and her family.
We should all just read her interview (and blog, if you wish), recognize her pain, empathize, offer support if we can and move on. It is and never will be our place to judge. And in cases such as these, people need to learn to keep their insulting opinions to themselves.
@ Medina
” ["Cant you look past the sin and see the human being?”] Let us just imagine that the national security is broken in a country and everything went in chaos. You will know then know who “the human beings” is.”
Not everyone is prone to anarchy.
We are all prone to sinning.
It is humanistic. It is how we were created. It is called fallibility.
Coolred made the original post but I agree with her on this one.
It gets very tedious to always here, “Haram alaik!”
It’s always haram, haram, haram. Severe judging by the people around you doesn’t encourage change.
I think we should focus more on what leads a person into sinfulness and offer them support rather than focus on their particular sins and cast them aside.
@Anebu
Why are you directing insulting opinions to me. It was Aafke who bad mouths anyone and yet you do not have anything to say to her and others like her?
Honor killing is not the trait of Saudis. It is a tribal issue spreading even to Asia. So please do not make it like only a Saudi thing.
We all sin, I know, but we need not make it public and accuse others. We are responsible for our own actions/sins. We sin and repent but we do not harbor bad feelings to the environment and people around us.
Would she allow her kids to follow her actions? Would she like it if they rebelled and ran away and broke the law? Is that what is she is teaching her children and others, that it is okay to do that because the society was bad? What would be her reactions if her children did the same? Let them go? Again I say, we have not heard the other side. It is a one-sided story.
I sympathise with her as I have said before and I hope that one day she can learn to accept it and find peace within herself and forgive the people involved.
Kristine, I have that book on my list to buy the next time I purchase books via Amazon.com. Thanks for the recommendation!
Sarah MD,
Would you like to live the life of Iman – minus the “sinning part?”
Please read her blog posts before you think about this question.
@ Sara MD
“Why are you directing insulting opinions to me. It was Aafke who bad mouths anyone and yet you do not have anything to say to her and others like her? Honor killing is not the trait of Saudis. It is a tribal issue spreading even to Asia. So please do not make it like only a Saudi thing.”
This is the reason I addressed you…
You posted to someone else: “I don’t know where you got the idea that Saudis do not forgive.”
Of course honor killings are not limited to Saudis. It was only an example of how they do not forgive easily. And lack of forgiveness is applicable to Iman’s situation given how her Saudi family treated her.
And how exactly am I directing insulting opinions to you? My comment was insulting? I used very mild mannered words. I encouraged empathy. Please explain how that is insulting.
I have nothing to say about Aafke.
Generally speaking I am usually a lurker to this blog and only ever comment occasionally when one of Bedu’s posts or someone’s comment really moves me. Otherwise I am much too busy with my own children to comment on how others behave immaturely. Besides, it is not my place to monitor others language here, that right belongs to Bedu alone.
And, for whatever it is worth, I will repeat my suggestion in that I believe Bedu’s comments for her interviews should be turned off or at least heavily monitored to maintain focus on the interviewee and avoid insulting comments directed toward them.
Those who have direct questions for Iman should visit her blog where my guess would be you are more likely to receive a quicker response from her.
Lastly, you wrote:
“We all sin, I know, but we need not make it public and accuse others. We are responsible for our own actions/sins. We sin and repent but we do not harbor bad feelings to the environment and people around us.
Would she allow her kids to follow her actions? Would she like it if they rebelled and ran away and broke the law? Is that what is she is teaching her children and others, that it is okay to do that because the society was bad? What would be her reactions if her children did the same? Let them go? Again I say, we have not heard the other side. It is a one-sided story.”
This was an interview with Iman not Iman and her entire family. It is meant to be one sided. It is her story. It goes without saying that her family may paint a different picture.
We are individuals. We have different minds and hearts.
We experience pain and deal with it in different ways.
Perhaps you would not like to expose your sinfulness but that is your feeling. Perhaps Iman finds it cathartic to write about her experiences. We can only speculate.
She owes no one on this earth an explanation. It is between her and Allah from A-Z.
@ MEDINA
I have only visited Mecca and Medina, and Jeddah. I was told life in Riyadh is completely different and restricted, however I cannot judge because I haven’t visited the place myself. You shouldn’t use the term, “complain” about Saudi Arabia in dialogue, should be more like critical analysis. It’s a shame when a country like KSA, which has trillions of dollars in its bank cannot focus on progressive, and forward-thinking. You look to your neighbor, UAE…I love the way women are taking their stand and making a wave in the county’s economic , social and political life. Now I am not comparing, but the truth does hurt.
I met a lot of people from Africa, Asia, North America, and other places in the middle-east. When I say I enjoyed my stay there, it was because the diversity of the place made it a beautiful experience, however I did not speak to any Saudi men of course. As a woman, I felt trapped in KSA. Even though the place was beautiful, women are restricted. I may have been able to shop alone, and walk around, but men would always look at me, throw papers or say something that did not concern them, and were disrespectful because I had no male guardian with me at all times…seriously…I even had this man come up to me and say put on a niqab, I mean worry about your own effen problems, and leave me the hell alone. It must be a million times worse for Saudi women, but they accepted this lifestyle even if the do not like it, because they have no other choice, and that is the sad part. Men in Canada do not dare to do such a thing…so what’s the problem?
Again I am Muslim, and will focus on Muslim issues and countries. I do not hate KSA. I am just baffled as to why its so messed up. You could understand a poor and underdeveloped country, but with trillions of dollars in the bank, KSA should be one of the leading countries in the world. If only I could replace the men…really. I find that many other Muslim countries are easy going and accepting, and I do not know why KSA turned out this way esp. with all this money – someone say Arrogance. I am very neutral to your country, however to not deny the facts that KSA is by far one of the worst countries in term of abuse of human rights, women, and non-Saudis.
@ NN
In the end, I am grateful that in Canada, I could do many things that would seem impossible in KSA. However we shouldn’t think of ourselves only. There are many women suffering around the world, and instead of fighting over who has more freedom or a better life, we should be focusing on helping each other obtain justice for all women. When I hear stories of women abuse regardless of where in the world, I feel angry and upset about it. Imam’s story is one of the many, and I am happy that she found peace and solace here in Canada, however I encourage her to continue her fight and let the world know that such behavior should not and could not be accepted. She will be judged and criticized but to hell with that. People are stupid and conform to societal norms, which in KSA is backward in terms of women issues and rights. However there are good and bad everywhere, and I the stereotype of KSA women is exaggerated to an extent, but you have women here in Canada that are treated the same way.
@SARAH
Hollywood is more psychological. I mean, its not like women are being forced to act and dress in manners that attract the other sex. I wear nice clothes because it looks nice on me. However even though I completely disagree with the exploitation of women in the media, and fashion, we have to differentiae the situation between both countries,. In America force isn’t an issue, whereas in KSA it’s the issue.
@Daisy,
I have enough problems of mine own and I do not want to live others’ lives. Thank you. I do not want to live a luxurious life.
I do the things I want. I do not feel restricted. I love what I wear and above all I have faith.
@Anebu
““Why are you directing insulting opinions to me”
Sorry maybe you misunderstood me. I meant why are you directing ABOUT “insulting opinions” at me because you said “people need to learn to keep their insulting opinions to themselves”
Yes you used mild words and were not harsh. You are right this interview is about Iman. What I am saying is that we cannot pass judgement without hearing both sides.
About not liking to expose sins is not about my feelings. It is what Islam teaches.
Yes in the end it i between her and Allah as it is with all of us.
Mona Alas,
Hollywood movies go all around the world and it carries with it the image of american women. it is psychological even to the women living in america. Young girls try to look like those actors/actress and get into all kinds of health issues. Drugs, eating disorders, surgical changes to their bodies …etc Is that a good thing?
I know that they are not forced to dress that way but if they don’t then they are not marketable … so in a way it is a force.
@Anebu,
Yes I agree with you that people do mistakes or sins etc and it is not a bad thing but I still believe that people are very dangerous when there is no security.
@Mona,
As I said in my previous comment, people in Hejaz are a bit different culturally than the rest of Saudi Arabia. Hejaz has along history of cultural contact with others and I explained that thoroughly in my comment on one of AB articles here. I also agree that some restrictions are not necessary and many Saudis are not happy about. But it is still a national dialogue among Saudis but as I said people are in rush to see a dramatic change in Saudi but I do still believe that gradual change is wise movement. People change by generations not by decisions, especially when it comes to cultural change. I am sure in the next 10 years, you will find many changes. For example, Saudi women will drive their cars. This is a change and yes it is slow but it is slow to avoid civil clash that may feed extremism and give justifications for extremists to go astray. Please note that every kind of change is perceived socially that Saudi Arabia is moving towards secularism and this is a nightmare for extremists and also for many Saudis who are moderate Muslims. People who are overseas do not know the serious consequences of dramatic change in Saudi. There is a Saudi saying, Meccans know better than anyone else Mecca’ valleys.
salam
I am going to go off the topic for a second here, and ask those Saudi haters who are shedding crocodile tears over the alleged oppression of Saudi women, where were they when women and children were being slaughtered by the Israeli army?? Where were you when UN buildings that were used to house women children were bombarded by the Israeli army?? Where were you when phosphor bombs(Internationaly prohibited) were used against an armless population?? Where were they when the Israeli army were committing war crimes against the Palestinian population?? An act that was documented by a UN investigation, I don’t think I have seen any AB threads addressing the issue. I know some of you might say this a total different issue, but is your concern for an alleged oppression of Saudi women more than oppression of women and children in Palastine??. You guys must have been in outer space if you have not seen gurney after gurney of kids with half of the brain blown out, aren’t those subject worthy of your comments. Isn’t the money and grants given to Israel to bolster its killing machine, coming out of the tax payer’s coffers. Where were you when Rachel Corrie was crushed to death by the IDF, where was your outrage when seeing an innocent young American life wasted.
And for the hater named “Daisy”, I really fail to comprehend your hate for Saudi Arabia and Islam, maybe you applied for a job there and were turned down lool. You still refuse to address things that goes in your own backyard, you still refuse to address the many young brides who are burned to death every year…hmm aren’t they woman too (there were a CNN documentary on the subject, maybe you can look it up on you tube)?? You refuse to address the many female infants who are killed and buried every year, because their families don’t wont to deal with paying their dowry when their grow up. Dear if I start to list all the ills in India, I think I will be here all day. So I suggest you aim your attention toward your own country, I think Saudi Arabia will do just fine without your babbling.
I did address the same issues that Anonymous_Saudi raised here before and in this thread. These women are so bent on saving the saudi women – but why only saudi women concerns then, it boggles the mind.
What about the women the world over that really need helping. They are crying for help it falls on deaf ears.
I was thinking about it just now, and when it comes to rape, doesn’t South Africa have alarmingly high rates, much higher than many other places around the world to include the US and/or Saudi Arabia? I know that two different people n South Africa, one man and one woman, each created a condom that is supposed to protect women against rape. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-rape_device and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_South_Africa for more information on these topics. I was just pointing this out to those who mentioned the high instance of rape in New York. Obviously, statistics on rape everywhere go unpublished because women don’t always want to speak out or choose not to think of it as rape for whatever reason.
I’m sorry, I was a bit unclear in what I said. I meant “statistics on rape everywhere are not completely accurate because”… rather than “statistics on rape everywhere go unpublished because”.
All…
If anyone is interested it is actually south Africa which has the highest rates of rape in the world. Look it up.
The blog is about Saudi Arabia, therefore the topics always are about, or have a link to, that country.
This interview is about a woman who experienced living and growing up in Saudi Arabia, who experienced how women are treated by family society and the authorities, how women who get abused are treated and by default are blamed for whatever suffering a man decides to inflict on them.
I just feel I have to explain this because there are several people commenting here who do not seem to have the slightest inkling on the subject matter of American Bedu.
Maybe I was being to complicated, I will do it in bullet points:
- Blog is about Saudi Arabia
- Not about other places on the planet
- interview is by a woman who candidly relates her feelings and experiences
So talking about anything else means going off topic. I will add some bullet points on what is off topic and only in the imaginations of some deranged and/or confused visitors:
Off topic is:
- Any other country than Saudi Arabia
- Paranoid notions that the personal story of a gallant woman equals ”Saudi Bashing”
- Naked women in ”the west”
I really hope that Carol or her moderator will delete any off topic comments.
Not off topic but heartless, unkind, unfeeling, insensitive, cruel and cold-hearted are those comments which try to put blame on the interviewee, which try to slur her character, try to put doubt on her honesty and the genuineness of her sufferings and feelings.
I am very sorry for Iman, she has to deal with so many readers here who are so cold, cruel and heartless. But actually I feel they have value too.
What better to prove can one give to the other readers?
Each single one of the nasty, suspicious and ”imaginary Saudi bashing” comments prove Iman’s case, and show the rest of us what a Saudi woman can expect when she dares to speak up for herself after abuse and rape.
Anonymous Saudi, Your argument is that this blog only speaks about Saudi Arabia and where was everybody when the Palestinian people are being oppressed? Well this blog is about Saudi Arabia not Palestine.
My blog is not about Saudi Arabia and I have written several posts about the ill-treatment of the Palestinians, if you search my blog on ”Palestine” or ”Gaza” you will find my articles.
http://clouddragon.wordpress.com
If you want to talk about Palestine you should visit blogs which have Palestine as their area of interest.
http://clouddragon.wordpress.com/?s=palestine
Well said Aafke! Thank you! I apologize if my last comment (or any previous ones) were too far off-topic.
I did not mean to come across as heartless if I did because I truly do sympathize with Iman. Every time I see the guy who assaulted me, I cringe inwardly and can only be happy that he hasn’t made it a point to talk to me first, and that I also haven’t been in the same room alone with him yet since then, either.
I wish there was more that could be done in her situation, as someone else already mentioned, that the assaulter is going to be an anaesthesiologist (scary thought!).Even scarier, he doesn’t seem to feel guilty in the least for his actions. I really do hope that Iman is able to work through these feelings associated with the whole situation eventually and get to a point where she is able to let go and move on. I don’t think one can ever forget bad memories like this one, but I do believe it is possible over time to accept that the situation happened and there is nothing more one can do about the fact it occurred (once, of course, there IS nothing more one can do). We can only move forward from here.
I am still working through some things that happened in my past (that aren’t nearly as bad as what Iman went through, in my opinion), so when I say this, I am trying to relate the best I can to Iman through my own experiences.
In my personal experience, I have found it easier to live without a particular faith that I follow as I feel that a lot of people try to take religion and religious practices to an extreme, which results in a lot of people trying to be perfect and/or pretending to be so to others. This makes it difficult sometimes to accept ourselves and view ourselves in a positive way particularly if we are prone to feeling inadequate (especially if it’s due to expecting perfection from oneself). For me, stepping away from religion was extremely freeing in that I felt like I could be honest with myself and my opinions in life. I didn’t feel like I had to live up to others’ expectations of what being a Christian was. I didn’t have spend my Sunday listening to someone tell me about a how a Christian SHOULD act, and then not follow through with it themselves. I believe this happens in every religion because people are still people no matter which religion they follow. I do not think there are any “perfect” people out there, no matter how much one may (or may not) wish it. I still don’t get drunk, I dress modestly, and try to do the right thing. I may be a little more unsure of my place in society now and unsure about how I feel on religion in general, but at least I am being honest with myself. I’m healing. Hopefully with time, I will be less fearful of religion, generally speaking. I wonder if Iman has any of the same experiences and/or views on religion?
Is there a way to move some of the irrelevant comments over to the debate page?
@strangeone,
I feel sorry that you passed a difficult time strangeone. And I love that you want to be honest with yourself and I like that a lot. This is a highness of morals. Believe me you are such a lovely person in your soul that you revealed now. And I wish that everyone has your pure soul.
@aafk,
You forgot to add one condition, “any post does not bash Saudi is off topic” hehe. Aafk, have you ever joined a writing class? It seems you have no idea about the “types of writing”? Otherwise, you just reminded me of a novel I read three years ago, novela del dictador. I recommed that novel for you and you may learn from it something good (:
Anonymous Saudi,
I have said several times on this and on other blogs that I never wish to travel to Saudi Arabia.
With due apologies to the foreigners working in Saudi Arabia –
I have not fallen on such bad days yet that I should even consider applying for a job in KSA, let alone be turned down by them.
I’ve said all along in numerous posts over the years that Saudi Arabia is not for everyone. I’m glad, Daisy, that you have easily reached the conclusion it is not for you.
For others, however, such as myself, it was a blessed experience. The people, the hospitality and the opportunities and experiences I had in Saudi were priceless.
Yes Carol,
I understand your point.
But if you were a brown-skinned Third World person coming from a Hindu background, a secular education, a very liberal family and having an outspoken temperament, things could get really difficult for you.
I am fortunate I was not born there and did not live the life of Iman.
For those who think that the women in the West are exploited…I will say that depends on several factors. IMO the #1 factor that says women are not exploited is that women are not forced to do much of anything. Women, even those appearing in a porn film, or draped across the top of a hot vehicle etc, are doing it of their own free will. NO ONE is forcing them to do any of that. I personally don’t think it is the best way to make a living and there are certainly more respectable ways to earn an income, but even then most people are not out there judging them harshly and making their life a living hell for their choices. I am not sure why Muslims are using Hollywood as the standard by which to judge American women. Should we judge all Muslims by the fact that in the movies they are often the villains? Or would you say that is a bit unfair? If Muslims would not want to be judged by the Hollywood yardstick why the heck are you taking it as the gospel about American life and women? If it stretches the truth about Arabs and Muslims is it not a tiny bit possible it does the same for American women? Do you know how many women I know personally who dress like the young starlets or the impossibly oversexed women in some films…try zero. That is why the films sell…because they are fantasies!! women might like to pretend that somewhere deep inside of them is a hottie but the vast majority of American women are normal and not at all like their film counterparts. Perhaps Saudi women would dress like that under the abaya for their men and that is why they assume all women are like that…dunno. But this idea that women are FORCED to wear these slutty outfits to attract men is nuts. I don’t know about Saudi men but American men are not walking around all the time with their hand in their pants looking for a hot time and only choosing women dressed like Madonna or Lady Gaga. Most women would not WANT a man like that because they know that he is not a suitable partner if that is his idea of how a woman should present herself. Do you know what I wore on my first date with my husband? A pair of loose khakis pants, a plain top and a blazer (jacket) over it. Easy going, respectable, comfortable bordering on professional. And OH MY GOD! Guess what? We had pizza and talked and he must have liked something he saw despite the decidedly unsexy outfit because he asked me out for a second date. And, brace yourself, I didn’t sleep with him on the first date. I didn’t even give him a kiss on the cheek. He got a nice “thank you for a lovely evening” and that was that.
My point is some women try too hard and that is generally a mistake of youth. But not all or even the majority of women are hot little tarts “FORCED” to subjugate themselves for the pleasure of a man. Any woman with self respect will turn on her heel and tell the man to go to hell who would even hint at treating her like that. So get rid of the fantasy that women in the West are subjugated by men and forced into sexual patterns because they are so desperate.
The fact is that women in KSA ARE FORCED to cover completely, and even then they get hit on and treated poorly by the men. The women ARE forced to have a mahrem and live by archaic laws that takes their right to chose for themselves away. They ARE forced to be at the mercy of a man and his whims over her life.
That is something American and other Western women are not FORCED to do. It is a huge difference. Iman fled the country because she doesn’t have full rights under the law and even if she wanted to could not make her situation better. In Canada, she is not forced to live by anyones rules but her own and if she needs it the laws are fairly balanced so that she has a fair chance in this world. Why Saudi women would not want (or seem to be arguing against) a justice system in their country that makes them equal to men is beyond me. When you are equal under the law, the choices you can make are far different to those you make when you do not have that kind of protection. You can choose to leave an abusive situation, you can take your children or have equal access to them, you can sue if someone touches you or discriminates against you. As a rape victim you are not the one who is wrong. You did not “ask” for it. you can have an equal say in the runnings of your home/life. Why would a woman not want that?
@ Daisy
I think you take yourself way too seriously, I was being facetious, when I inquired about you applying for a job in Saudi Arabia, hence the (looool). I don’t think Saudi Arabia would want anything to do with a woman like you, a woman who is so close minded and so full of hate and anger about other people and religions. A woman who is totally blinded by rage, who sees thing only as black, or white, who doesn’t see the goodness in anyone, or anything but herself and her alleged Utopia of a country.
Just for your information, since you seem to be so misinformed, there’re a number of brown skinned people working in Saudi Arabia, and many of them are happy and content being there. You just don’t quit, when Carol wrote that had a blessed experience that enriched her life while living in Saudi Arabia, right away you switched and tried to use the race card. Either way, I will keep you in my prayers, because the rage and hate you have will eat you from within.
Now you have a good day now from sunny Saudi Arabia
LOL! @ *– add Aafke to the list of difficult women now.*
I wouldn’t mind getting a look at this ‘list’. LOL!
Anonymous Saudi,
Are you seriously trying to say that the Saudi experience of a woman from Daisy’s background would not be different than a white American woman like Carol?
“So get rid of the fantasy that women in the West are subjugated by men and forced into sexual patterns because they are so desperate.”
Right on sista!
Women are not forced into any profession but we still do have severe income disparities across the board; we do have to work harder than men in many professions. I assume that you can agree on.
The “ideal” woman is different around the world and here in the USA, I personally do not feel pressure to conform, let alone feel forced.
I think sexuality is overdone in both print and film. No one is forcing porn stars to do what they do but if a husband leaves a woman with 3 kids and will not pay child support, some would argue that that woman is a target for fast/easy money. I dunno. I think, and I tell my sister this all the time–women need an education/job training BEFORE AN EMERGENCY HAPPENS. Never ever depend on a MAN. Waste of time!! lol
@anthrogreek
I will get back to you when America elects its first female president…
Thats the kind progress I want to hear about.
Even Indonesia with the largest Muslim pop. has had a female president…
@anthrogeek,
I think people should understand the word “forced” in the sense that American culture by its laws and norms facilitate that bad people exploit women sexually because of their needs. I do not believe that porn stars want to do this profession because they just LOVE it. I do not believe that they are happy doing such profession, I do not believe that they show themselves in such ways just to please themselves or to have fun. They are doing that because they are in need of money to feed their kids, pay bills etc. so, I do not blame them and I feel sorry for them really from my deep heart. And I do not wish such profession for anyone dear to me or an American friend or even just a human being because it touches human dignity. So, the term “force” is perceived as that American culture facilitates this stuff. By the way, prostitution profession is as old as Adam and Eve. It goes back to thousands of years. and it is not exclusive to only one group. There is also prostitution even in Saudi Arabia. But the society and the laws are against that completely, yet, it is considered a crime. So, here is the difference and why people point finger and say “women are forced”. Please note that we are here not in war lol. We are here to learn from each other and to exchange cultural experiences, cultural concepts, lifestyles, perceptions about life etc. It should not be taken that in the sense that people compare their in-group to out-group to feel psychologically distinct (Tafjel, 1978). No one is better than others. We are all human beings and we are all “sinners”. Also, I wish from the people who are labeled “bashers” to consider what I said now if they are really interested to have healthy and fruitful conversations; otherwise, the conversation will be taken personally and intergroup fight. And you have the choice now.
salam
i also read once that virtually all “stars” of pornographic flms have been subject to sexual abuse at some point in their lives.
“I will get back to you when America elects its first female president…”
What is your point?????????? I am well aware of that fact. What are you getting at with regards to my last posting? You make zero sense.
While I agree that we are lacking that statistic, I was commenting on Oby’s post and making my comments which had nothing to do with female heads of state!
I am well informed about Muslim majority countries from a historical perspective and a contemporary one. Although, like anyone else, I am not ashamed to admit that I can learn more. That said…your comment was irrelevent.
anthrogeek10
Medina…
“Forced” in the context of this discussion about female porn stars does refer to “having no other options” or “feeling powerless” and thus, “forced”. I gotcha…
anthrogeek10
Lynn,
Yes, add you to in the list!
You were not around then.
Whew! Thanks Daisy, I would have been hurt if I’d been left off.
@lynn,
I know you chose to belong to the “black list” to avoid watching “long face” hehehe.
salam
@Medina
“There is also prostitution even in Saudi Arabia. But the society and the laws are against that completely, yet, it is considered a crime. ”
This is also the case at most states in the U.S. I believe Nevada is the only one where prostitution is legal. Most other places it is considered a criminal offense that carries penalties. I”m sure they are not as severe as in KSA, but the point is that prostitution is not legal in (most of) the U.S. Just FYI.
@Medina…
“I think people should understand the word “forced” in the sense that American culture by its laws and norms facilitate that bad people exploit women sexually because of their needs. I do not believe that porn stars want to do this profession because they just LOVE it. I do not believe that they are happy doing such profession, I do not believe that they show themselves in such ways just to please themselves or to have fun. They are doing that because they are in need of money to feed their kids, pay bills etc. so, I do not blame them and I feel sorry for them really from my deep heart.”
Yup, you are right. They do do it for the money because in general they can make MUCH more than they can in a regular job. Some of these women can make $100,000+ if they become well known. i don’t think prostitution and the like is a good thing. I think girls get involved with pimps at a time of need and then can’t get themselves out of the situation. But we are not talking about that. I am talking adult women who chose to be in the industry. Think about it…why would a woman do that job? Generally it is because she can make some GOOD money and doesn’t have to struggle. Still she is not forced…she can find a regular job or go to school and do something with her life that is not in the field. No one has kidnapped her and forced her (generally ) to perform. BTW, In all but one state of the USA prostitution is illegal. And if porn is so haram why does the Middle East have the highest consumption of porn in the world?
@anthrogeek,
Bingo.
@NN,
Your comment is enlightening to me. I thought it is legal in all the American states. Now, I can tell that this is something great.
@oby,
“They do do it for the money because in general they can make MUCH more than they can in a regular job. Some of these women can make $100,000+ if they become well known”
Do not you agree with me that if the society does not stop these practices that touch the human dignity, they are going to drag a big segment of the society into these stuffs? And they will facilitate these bad habits to exist for all people and then it will be one of the basic human rights? Is this not a kind of “forcing others”, by seducing them by money to do things against their human values?
Where are we going to live then? Are we going to live in TV screens showing our genitals to each other? Is this what we want? Are these the human values that we were raised up to follow by our parents? Are they going to drag us into the jungle life? What are we going to do tomorrow if our children come and say wow we watch porn movies and it becomes a normal habit among people like smoking? We are human beings; our ancestors maintain our social values for thousands of years just to protect our human dignity. Do we want people to lose their culture that they maintain for thousands of years just to be indistinct than those ladies who are seeking easy money? Should we lose our human values just for the sake of MONEY? Is this fair in terms of culture? Is this fair in terms of humanity? Is this fair to speak against others because they just do not want to drag their society into this level of life by regulating people behaviours? And should we just be deaf and blind for not defending our values, otherwise they will call us names? Please think of these questions neutrally and you may understand my previous comment regarding that American culture facilitates it and then people will be forced to do things against their human values just for the sake of money.
“Why does the Middle East have the highest consumption of porn in the world?”
Can you give me the reliable source of this information?
salam
i have heard this mentioned from time to time and i think the explanation lies in the fact that non-english speakers might search for the word “porn” whilst english speakers might search for essentially the same material but using more specific words.
“And they will facilitate these bad habits to exist for all people and then it will be one of the basic human rights?”
excellent point, mashAllah.
No africana it’s access to porn sites.
Gay porn het the biggest hits from the middle east over anywhere else.
It ‘s all that repression, very unhealthy.
A saudi friend told me they sell porn dvd’s on the street corners in KSA.
Sorry, you can try to explain it away all you want but but porn is very popular.
Porn is not exclusive to Saudi Arabia, it’s only natural with the spread of the internet that people will surf these sites, especially so, when the majority of Saudi society are young individuals. But you know what, I studied and worked in the United States and you will be surprised how many of my adult co-workers were surfing the net at work looking at porn sites. All I can say, it’s a very high percentage and it rampant amongst a lot of employees and in many different companies. Anyone who doesn’t believe so is in total state of denial.
aafke,
i didn’t say it was unpopular, i am not trying to say that any contry is utopian just trying to counter the unsubstantiated claim that its populaerity is greater in the ME than elsewhere.
@oby,
don’t you see that pornography has a strong racial element and is used as a means of reinforcing stereotypes and abusing people on the basis of their perceived race. SHAME ON YOU for your approval of an industry which results in abberations such as thhis:
“Using the alias of “Belguel,” a combination of “Belge” and “Geule” or “Jaw,” meaning “Pretty Face,” he first appeared on an American website for international pornographers, describing himself as a “serial fucker.” He litters the website with pictures taken in Agadir, Morocco, featuring veiled Moroccan women being sodomized, their faces covered in semen and urine. A sado-masochist, Belguel often tied up his subjects, some with dog collars and leashes around their necks in sickening scenes reminiscent of the porn produced by American soldiers in Abu Ghraib.”
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/07/345132.html?c=on
oby, do you and others like you also support what’s mentioned below? i sincerely hope not.
“Whether they are viewed as nominal Muslims, cultural Muslims, bad Muslims or non-Muslims, the women who appear in these pornographic productions are presented as Arab and Persian Muslims. This is what makes them appealing. This is what makes them arousing. They are rarely ravished by Arab men, and never by Persian men. They are violated and desecrated by non-Muslim men, white and black, who are mainly nominal Jews or Christians. In adult films, black men and women never have sex together. While Jewish men and white men are free to have sex with whom they please, black men can only serve white women and black women can only be served by white men. Clearly, the purpose of porn is to divide the black man and the black woman. In the case of Muslims, the motivation is the same. The objective of Arab and Persian porn is to wage war against Muslim women, to defile them, degrade them, and discard them, to objectify them for political purposes and to assault the honor of Islam. It is thus the collective obligation of all Muslims to pressure the producers, ordering them to shut down their sites and stop producing such porn. If they fail to comply, they should be subjected to a class-action suit coordinated by Islamic associations throughout the world on charges of religious defamation. “
@Medina – ‘Do not you agree with me that if the society does not stop these practices that touch the human dignity, they are going to drag a big segment of the society into these stuffs?’
It’s been going on since the beginning of time and we still manage to produce upstanding, solid, righteous (religious as well as NOT religious) and educated human beings that work tirelessly to save the world from diseases and famine even each other. I think you are delusional if you think that just because it is not legal it won’t happen. I had a friend who at the age of 16 (if memory serves me) was taken to Riyadh Saudi Arabia by his Yemeni father to lose his virginiity to a ‘divorced’ woman. This had to have been nearly 40 years ago
And, Africana, I think that ‘choice’ in one’s profession IS a basic human right. If one chooses to be a pole dancer because they enjoy it and make good money and put themselves through college then that should be their right!
hmm i didn’t know they had arab porn andpersian porn.. isn’t porn all the one and same…. and it has a racial element???? wow you are seriously well informed ont his topic
so this so called thing is a fake? why on earth would someone use muslim women inthis if they don’t agree how?? and who are the consumers?/ anyway it’s way too compliated for me.
but all i can say i’m vegetarian andi think if we the vegetarians of the world get together we can bring a class action lawsuit for religious defamation.. hell i’d do it for health defamation ..
seriously if a religion is against porn 9 as it should rightly be) then be good followers and don’t see it, don’t enable it and it will go away..
@Medina
“Do not you agree with me that if the society does not stop these practices that touch the human dignity, they are going to drag a big segment of the society into these stuffs? And they will facilitate these bad habits to exist for all people and then it will be one of the basic human rights? ”
Societies have tried to stop prostitution for as long as it existed, which is to say from the dawn of mankind. If you know your history, no society really embraced prostitution, but no society has been able to eliminate it completely either. The most they can accomplish is drive it underground. I don’t think that you can find a country anywhere in the world where prostitutes are respected and honored, or where it is presented as a respectable career choice. At most, it’s grudgingly tolerated. At the end of the day you have to admit that as long as there are men willing to pay for sex, there will be women willing to have sex with them for money. Eradicating this completely is simply beyond the capabilities of any given society or individual. (I wonder why it is that scorn is reserved for prostitutes while their client base, which makes this industry exist after all, goes home free and clear).
If you want to eliminate prostitution, all you have to do is figure out how to make men refuse to pay for sex. If you have ideas on how to make that happen, I’m all ears.
“Is this not a kind of “forcing others”, by seducing them by money to do things against their human values?”
This argument is not limited to prostitution. Stealing is also very lucrative (until you go to prison), so is scamming people, so is kidnapping people for ransom, so is contract killing (until you get caught). I would say that as long as your values are strong, there is no money anyone can offer you to force you do something against them. So, no, it is not forcing. It is the decision an individual makes when they choose money over their morals.
@Africana
Reading social meaning into porn is a kind of mental masturbation best reserved for those in search of a PhD subject. The purpose of porn, no matter who is starring in it, is to cause sexual excitement. Whatever you get off on seeing, there will be a market to serve your particular kink. I find it completely normal that there exists a segment of the porn market that features Arabs or Persians. All that means is that someone must get off on seeing it. FYI, porn that features submission and humiliation scenes is very common, ancient even, and not something thought up by enemies of religion.
” They are violated and desecrated by non-Muslim men, white and black, who are mainly nominal Jews or Christians. While Jewish men and white men are free to have sex with whom they please, black men can only serve white women and black women can only be served by white men. ”
I am very curious how you can tell that a man is Jewish or Christian, let alone “nominally Jewish or Christian” when he’s naked (unless he’s sporting a huge cross necklace). What are they doing, shtupping Persian women while holding on to their yarmulkas or chanting Hava Nagila?
“In adult films, black men and women never have sex together. ”
Completely wrong.
“The objective of Arab and Persian porn is to wage war against Muslim women, to defile them, degrade them, and discard them, to objectify them for political purposes and to assault the honor of Islam. ”
Ridiculous. The objective of Arab and Persian porn, much like any other porn, is to cause sexual excitement and make the final user purchase the product. I can say with absolute certainty than political purposes never enter the mind of an average porn user.
@nn,
you have chosen to focus on one small point in the article rather than looking
the overriding interest might be sexual. however one can not deny that watching an image of a woman being insulted and having her cross or some other religious insignia (for example) urinated etc.. upon whilst the viewer experiences pleasurable release would certainly create an acceptance of the racist mindset of whoever had produced the film. people are not just watching these images but experiencing release which alters the minset of the viewer and his perception of the participants.
if an individual is white, then one automatically conclude that he was either from a christian or jewish background.
@Africana
“if an individual is white, then one automatically conclude that he was either from a christian or jewish background.”
Who’s a racist now, girlfriend?
@Africana
“the overriding interest might be sexual. however one can not deny that watching an image of a woman being insulted and having her cross or some other religious insignia (for example) urinated etc.. upon whilst the viewer experiences pleasurable release would certainly create an acceptance of the racist mindset of whoever had produced the film. ”
Are you aware that the volume of nun porn dwarfs the amount of hijab porn (whatever that is) in the market?
Why are you assuming this is something peculiar to Muslims, dark-skinned people or indeed anything else? Porn doesn’t make anyone a racist. It serves a preference that already exists.
And FYI. The porn world is dominated by blond, blue-eyed, white, thin, busty women. All ethnic porn serves a specialty markets.
I found the article to be complete partisan hogwash, making a political argument out of purely marketplace-driven phenomena.
@nn,
ethnicity is a fairly good predictor of reliogioos affiliation. i would guess that the vast majority of blonde haired, blue eyed men are, if not christian, from historically christian cultures.
Woehahahahahahaaaaaa! Here I am, from the Netherlands where having boy/girlfriends is the norm, where prostitution is legal (better all round for the prostitutes) where smoking pot is allowed, and some people here know só much more about porn then I do!
How and where do they attain that knowledge????
Never mind.
I am clearly missing out in my knowledge of the world of sleaze.
Luckily I can get educated right here at Bedu!
@Africana…
“WHOA!!! Hold on there.
First I have no idea where in the world you would get the idea that I support the thing that you wrote.
Second I am not a connoisseur of pornography and therefore am not familiar with all the subjective twists that are out there.
Thirdly I am not sure why you are putting a Muslim or any other twist on it when I never mentioned that at all and in fact, until you pointed it out it had not even crossed my mind. I was talking about plain normal run of the mill pornography produced in the USA and other countries where women freely make the choice to be in the films.
Foruthly, I am unable to find the statistic where I read that a few months ago and can’t list it here. For that I apologize.
Pornography is popular all over the world. I am not saying Americans are prudes or don’t surf the web for porn during the working hours. But we also don’t act as if it doesn’t exist in our world and say we don’t do it. We KNOW it exists and we KNOW people do it. Although I am not sure how many. I know myself and my husband don’t partake and a lot of other people don’t either because of religious convictions. ….but I’ll say this I think the more pious a person claims to be often those are the ones who have the most to hide and I think that applies to all religions across the board.
@africana…
Again I had not heard of “Muslim” porn before. I think it and other forms of porn fall under the category of “fetish”. Perhaps similar to people who would enjoy watching a “catholic schoolgirl” theme, or a “priest or rabbi” theme, or a “nurse/patient” theme or any number of themes that must be out there. If a person can think of it probably someone has done it. I don’t think it is right to denigrate anyone with urine or feces or other humiliations and if people don’t want them in their house they should put blocks on their computers as we have done at our house so it is not possible to access it especially children. People will make any number of offensive things to many people…if one does not want to partake one should not.
@africana…
Sorry for the many posts…
as for the link you posted I personally think that is taking it a bit far. People(especially men) get turned on by any number of things for any number of reasons. Probably as many as there are people. Saying Muslim porn is a plot to destroy Islam is far fetched IMO. I think it is a much simpler thing than that…a man might find a veiled woman exotic and exciting therefore arousing. Similar to how an Arab man might find a busty blonde alluring and exciting. Opposites attract often and while it may not be the most respectful thing, I really don’t think it goes to the heart of a plot to destroy Islam. Different is a turn on…different is exotic…simple as that.
“How and where do they attain that knowledge????
Never mind.
I am clearly missing out in my knowledge of the world of sleaze.
Luckily I can get educated right here at Bedu!”
A huge body of academic criticism of pornography have been made, mainly by feminists. i’m thinking of the likes of dworkin (for whom, it is alleged, all sex is rape) belle hooks, naomi wolf, ariel levy. all of these writiers have described the content (to varying degrees) in order to give weight to their theories about the porn industry being dangerous to society as a whole.
@oby,
choice does not occur within a vacum. the fact that a person is required to make a choice implies some outside pressure.
and even if, for argument’s sake said that these people had enter the field of their own free will, shouldn’t concern for the wider society, to echo medina, trump an individual’s right to dree their own weird.
@Africana
“ethnicity is a fairly good predictor of reliogioos affiliation. i would guess that the vast majority of blonde haired, blue eyed men are, if not christian, from historically christian cultures.”
What you referenced above has nothing to do with ethnicity and everything to do with race. You are aware of differences between the two, yes?
Can you tell the religious affiliation of a naked Asian person? Muslim Uigur, Christian Korean, Buddist Chinese?
Can you tell the religious affiliation of a naked black person? Muslim Nigerian, Christian Nigerian, Phalasha Jew?
Can you tell the religious affiliation of a naked white person? Muslim Bosnian, Christian whoever, Jewish, well, Jew?
Can you tell the religious affiliation of naked brown person? Muslim Arab, Hindu Indian, Christian Hispanic, any variety of Buddist?
Do enlighten me. I’d love to have your laser vision.
And I know this much about porn: There is a lot of nakedness!
@NN
You can narrow it down that for sure the circumcised males are either jews or muslims
@nn,
in the context of a pornographic film, which is what we were talking about, if a woman in religious attire is being repeatedly abused/insulted by a white man in no obvious religious attire i think we can safely assume that he is not meant to represent the other party in the so called clash of cultures.
circumcision is often a good indicator. joking aside, i am aware of the religious diversity within the african nations and was only limiting myself to those of white european appearance where there is considerably less diversity. and let’s face it, bosnians muslims are slavic, in the minority amongst white people overall and have much stronger facial contours than the average northern european.
the above should read…
white man in no obvious religious attire i think we can safely assume that he is meant to represent…
Kristine, and I also know they tend to focus.
On specific details.
So that might be an option, and maybe they have their religious affilliation tattooed somewhere… That would help too.
And, as the wellknowing proverb goes: ”Bigotry and paranoia is in the eye of the beholder.”
I think this is increadibly brave. To do this interview. And to write a blog. She will know for sure the reaction.
Which always is: The woman is at fault!
@Kristine:
Most American men are circumcised.
@Africana
Perhaps you are simply not familiar enough with porn. Abuse and “dressing down” of someone virtuous or previously inaccessible is one of the most frequently encountered themes in that area. Nuns, virgins, haughty schoolgirls, princesses, you name it. I would wager that a woman in an attire that to you has obvious religious connotations to an average porn user is simply a new exotic rendition of an age-old theme of “you thought I can’t touch you, well, look at you now.”
A subplot of that plot is a seemingly virginal/demure female character suddenly turning into a horny beast. But I digress.
@Kristine:
Most American men are circumcised.
@Africana
Perhaps you are simply not familiar enough with porn. Abuse and “dressing down” of someone virtuous or previously inaccessible is one of the most frequently encountered themes in that area. Nuns, virgins, haughty schoolgirls, princesses, you name it. I would wager that a woman in an attire that to you has obvious religious connotations to an average porn user is simply a costume – a new exotic rendition of an age-old theme of “you thought I can’t touch you, well, look at you now.” So I’m sorry, I stick to my position that appearance of Muslim/Persian women characters in porn is not a part of sinister plot to degrade Islam but rather just another boring step in the never-ending search for new stimulants for the specialty market.
I guess Catholics learned to get over that a long time ago, huh?
A subplot of that plot is a seemingly virginal/demure female character suddenly turning into a horny beast. But I digress.
@Lynn,
“It’s been going on since the beginning of time and we still manage to produce upstanding, solid, righteous (religious as well as NOT religious) and educated human beings that work tirelessly to save the world from diseases and famine even each other.”
and then you say, “I think that ‘choice’ in one’s profession IS a basic human right.”. (:
This is the point, contradiction again hehehe
@NN,
“Societies have tried to stop prostitution for as long as it existed, which is to say from the dawn of mankind”.
yes but Now prostitution is legal in one of the states in American and legal in France and legal in Netherland as aafk said. That is my point, TV channels that broadcast these porn movies are doing facilitating by the help of the “laws”, it is to make of prostitution a legal industry and then it will become like any other industry and become a habit and nothing wrong with it and respected and honored. ):
That is, these laws or countries that legislate prostitution and make it lawful by broadcastin porn movies, they are working against our ancestors will and history to protect our human dignity. Did you see the point that I am speaking about it for ages now in this article? maybe you just do not want to get me? Doh
salam
salam
In the Netherlands even a prostitute has more rights and more protection from the government, law and police as any woman in Saudi Arabia has right now.
@aafke,
“In the Netherlands even a prostitute has more rights and more protection from the government, law and police as any woman in Saudi Arabia has right now.”
What you said is actually supporting my argument here that these countries that legisilate prostitution industry is actually facilitating violating human dignity for the sake of “money”. So, you should not be happy of these laws and rights that you think it is given to prostitutes because it is the laws and rights of the executioners to slap and humiliate his victims. And I do not think that Saudi ladies are looking for such laws and rights. By the way, is not Netherland the land of Greet wilders (Fitna), where Muslims are discriminated? O_o
Have a good coffee.
salam
@NN.
Yes, I am aware of that, irregardless of religion, most US hospitals and parents circumcise male newborns.
Funny story, as brand new parents to our first child (son), my husband went to videotape his circumcision. I think we watched it once, and that was about all we could handle. I have no idea where that video is to this day.
@Medina…
Aafke could answer this better than I but I think the reason that the Netherlands has legalized it is because they realize that with prostitution often comes other illegal crimes…drugs, theft, physical abuse of the women etc…and by legalizing it they are able to remove a lot of the criminal elements that prey on Prostitutes and the disease and violence that come with them. The girls are checked very regularly so that they don’t spread disease and they are protected by the law if someone ties to harm them. Now one can make a moral judgement about it, but from a practical point of view it helps restrict some of the problems that come with prostitution such as drugs and disease that can spread to innocent people. I think the dutch realize it is a “profession ” that has existed since man has existed and they have taken a practical approach to try to minimize some of the damage that is caused by prostitution.
I could be wrong…but Aafke can tell us more.
you still find trafficked women in the netherlands forced into this line of work.
You know I always wondered, since prostitution is only legal in one, maybe two states, how come porn can be produced, filmed and distributed all over the United States ??!!!!!
isn’t porn, just another name for prostitution??!!!
Not only women hate Saudi Arabia.I hate it too.ppl are mentally sick. we need some space every thing is haram haram
Good that you made it out of hell. Iman have a good life
Prostitution exists, underground or legal with some control. The Dutch decided the last one is better. Same with pot, hard drugs are forbidden, soft drugs are sort of allowed. The result has been that the use of harddrugs has gone down big time and most people who smoke a spliff from time to time do so responsibly. Now when people come from other countries where it is forbidden they go nuts, precisely because it is forbidden.
Legalising prostitution has made the ”industry” (of which I wholly dissapprove) more transparent, gives the prostitutes some status and more protection.
Like I said before: there is no society where there is no prostitution. As long as women are not economically independent some will be driven or forced into prostitution. It is also related to women’s second class place in society. The more women are seen as chattel and of low value the more prostitution will be enabled. It is estimated that more than 50%, probably 90% of prostitutes are somehow forced into it, or have been abused as children.
I agree with the earlier commentators that is not prostitutes who deserve the blame but the men who like to pay for sex and make it the big business it is.
Now we all know the restriction placed on women in Saudi Arabia, and what happens to a woman who dares to go to court after she’s been raped. Saudi Arabia, together with Yemen and some parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan, (those under the yoke of the Taliban) , is a really bad place for women. In other countries women are allowed to be independent legal entities.
In the Netherlands any woman, even a prostitute can and will receive more protection from the law, and have more freedom to make decisions under the laws of the land.
This is not meant as ”Saud bashing” but it is the simple fact that women in Saudi Arabia have no rights, except those which are given to them by the men who are their ”keepers”.
We see again and again that women cannot get released from any bad situation without support from a man who has the power over her. Women cannot divorce without paying huge bribes, and giving back the mahr they recieved in lieu for their sexual favors in marriage. Young girls do get sold off into marriage, and there is no judge who would easily release them. Their mother’s have no say in the process. Men can keep their underage brides out of school.
These are human rights: schooling, travel, bodily integrity, choice in whom to marry, the right to determine how you want to live your life.
We all know women in Saudi Arabia do not have these rights. They may be allowed by an amenable mahram, but they do not have the unalienable rights to these freedoms, and they can be taken away again at the whim of the mahram, or if he dies and another mahram takes over the power.
And to make it short: even a prostitute in the Netherlands does have these rights.
My nephew lives and studies in Sweden. Swedish government passed the law regarding prostitution. It is legal to offer sex for money, but it is illegal to to pay for that. He says, it works… Kind of eliminates the subject…
I don’t see why this practice has to be seen in the only way prescribed by Islam – negative, immoral and defiling.
Different cultures have had different attitudes towards it throughout history.
It’s just a coincidence that I happen to be writing a paper on prostitution in ancient Buddhist period at the moment. There were certain renowned women who followed the profession of courtesans – they were highly proficient in the performative and fine arts, expert in cultural etiquette and demanded lot of money from their clients, who happened to be rich and powerful people of the day.
Incidentally, Buddha didn’t look down upon them, but gave them the same respect as he gave to other women and some of these renowned courtesans renounced their material life and entered the Buddhist Order as nuns. They composed hymns which are recorded in the Buddhist Canon.
That’s a very different kind of attitude towards the courtesans or prostitutes from what Islam shows towards them.
I’m not saying this is a model profession, but I don’t understand why they should be hated for it. Of course they should be checked for AIDS and other contagious diseases and their profession should be regulated, but simply having a degrading attitude towards them is not right.
Besides, Arab men form a large proportion of the clients of prostitutes in the Third World, but in their own country they pretend to be chaste and pristine and denigrate these women, whom they secretly visit when outside the Arab world.
Rather than criticising the prostitution in other countries, Arab men should criticise their own countrymen who travel to the Third World to visit prostitutes.
This is one of the worst kind of hypocrisy around.
How did this post end up being about prostitution?
Prostitution and being ‘free and easy’ about your sexuality are not even close to being similar, ya know. But I’ll tell you, prostitution is how I felt about my daughter marrying a stranger in exchange for a place to live!
I wish I knew if that ‘divorced’ woman that my Yemeni friend lost his virginity to in Riyadh was an Arab or a ‘thirdy’ (as I’ve seen y’all call them here) I’ve got to hunt him down and ask him that.
How to regard sexuality is a whole different subject again. In older societies sex was considered in a much more natural light and people didn’t have all these hang-ups about it. All these fobias about sex and the invention of adultery comes with patriarchal culture when men want to have power over women and their reproduction. When woomen are seen as property of the tribe, family and father husband., And then it gets ingrained in religion and it Gods will.
In mother goddess religions priestesses had sex with men because it was seen as a holy act. men went to temples for their first sexual experience, this is now called ”temple prostitution” in books, and some practices denigrated to that level when patriarchy took over. But if you regard sex as a holy act, and an orgasm as a higher state in which you are closer to the divine the concept of ”prostitution” or adultery doesn’t arise.
When status, inheritance, and the ”family” to which a child belongs is solely dependent on the mother who gave birth to that child, then it doesn’t matter where the father came from.
It is difficult to see the world through different lenses as the ones put over our eyes by the current patriarchal religions, but there really are different colored lenses through which one can see the world.
If you look at history without colored lenses you see that topics like sex and with whom you have sex can be regarded in an entirely different colored lens as the one the religious dictators want us to see it through.
Aafke…
Yes I agree and a few months ago saw a very interesting history special about “temple prostitution”. It wasn’t wrapped up in all the shame and honor that it is nowadays but as the history special pointed out it was long before Christianity or Islam came on the scene…or at least the one I saw was about that time frame.
In fact, in some cases it was an elaborate process including ritual bathing prior and after the sexual act. Rooms were set aside for this purpose. I was struck by how “unencumbered” the participants were and how neither party but particularly the women were not regarded as whores with no moral worth.
I have no idea how we reached here!
But Aafke, that’s a very insightful comment.
Lynn, you have a point in today’s context sexuality and prostitution can be separated, though it was not always like that in history.
Oby,
In which country was this?
@Anonymous Saudi
“You know I always wondered, since prostitution is only legal in one, maybe two states, how come porn can be produced, filmed and distributed all over the United States ??!!!!!
isn’t porn, just another name for prostitution??!!!”
Actually, it isn’t, since women and men actors are both paid. I don’t believe making porn is illegal here as long as consent forms are on file. Certain forms of porn may be illegal but most aren’t. The legal system views it as entertainment made by consenting actors who are paid for their performance.
Now we should conclude again that people in here divided again into two parties regarding prostitution.
The first party, who justifies prostitution as an old practice that should be regulated, is supporting prostitution as an industry. Their justification of and their agreements on legalizing prostitutions are motivated by seeking MONEY and they think that prostitutions can not be eliminated from the society, so let us support it as an industry. And they do not have any problem to violate the human dignity for the sake of MONEY. So MONEY or seeking Money was their main reason that they rely on when they think of prostitutions (The end justifies the means). Please note that they did not even think of you as a human being who is in need of help. They are not ready to offer you a financial help when you are in need of. They would say to you go and do and practice prostitution legally and let me enjoy watching you. You as a human being, who naturally tend to maintain her/his human dignity when you live in these societies where prostitutions are legalized, do not be surprised that these people, who claim human rights, will make of your daughter, wife, sisters prostitutes if they get broke and they will enjoy that. So, in these societies, your human dignity can be violated and you will find your related women in porn TV channels showing their genitals and people enjoying them. Please note that my argument is based on my love of and care to protect your HUMAN DIGNITY and it is not based on religion or any faith as some people here prejudicially and racially mentioned just to support and justify the prostitutions.
The other party, which opposes prostitutions and stands against porn industry by laws and social norms and culture, do not justify prostitutions for the sake of MONEY. Their disagreement on making porn industry legalized is motivated by love of protecting your Human Dignity. Their disagreement is motivated by their human feelings. They say that end does not justify the means. They put your humanity first and they are ready to offer you help financially but not to let you go in porn industry. In the societies of this party, you can feel comfortable that when your related women get broke, people will not exploit their financial needs to force them go into prostitutions. So, your HUMAN DIGNITY and your related women dignity will be maintained in these societies. And when you get old and you have daughters or sisters, you can feel comfortable that no one is going to exploit them and humiliate their human dignity.
I ask you now for the sake of your human dignity, to which party do you belong in this argument?
@Medina…
I think you missed the point in Aafkes post. (and in mine) We didn’t say that we think the porn industry is the best in the world. In fact, Aafke said she is against it.
What we said about it being legalized is this:
Prostitutes have existed since the time of man starting. No culture has been able to wipe it out…it simply gets driven underground. Every culture has prostitution. The Dutch decided to legalize not to condone it but to control it. If they legalize it the women are protected, they have healthcare which can stop diseases from spreading, the women are not preyed upon by pimps who beat them up, keep them drugged and don’t even allow them any of their earnings. If they have a problem they can come to the legal authorities for help because they are not afraid they will be locked up. By regulating it, they are protecting the women by and large from the abuses that happen when it is “hush hush”.
Just because prostitution is legal in the Netherlands does not mean that women who fall on hard times will become a prostitute…if that were the case there would be a lot more hookers out there than there are. SOME might find that an alternative but a lot of women would not turn to prostitution no matter how bad things got because it is against their personal moral code and ethics. They would work two or three jobs to make ends meet and would not consider prostitution….women do it all the time. I am not sure why you think it is a straight line to prostitution if it is legalized. You need to give women more credit than that.
Example: when I was young and in college for a period of time I was not able to work a reasonable job because my classes conflicted with the normal work schedule. I had a job, but it didn’t pay very well…for a period of a few months I lived without electricity. No TV, no AC, no refrigeration, no lights etc. I had a couple of oil lamps that I used to read by at night and I ate mostly fruit that I kept cool in the sink with cold water or food I could cook by gas on the stove that was non perishable. I toughed it out and did what I had to do to make it. I didn’t turn to prostitution. And I think most people would do the same.
But Aafke is right…if MEN wouldn’t pay for prostitutes women would not give it away for nothing and the industry would run dry…
Oby, I also lived on bread and margarine for a while while I was studying and had no money. I did all sorts of little jobs, but prostitution never entered my head!
@Medina
Your argument presents a false dichotomy and a complete mischaracterization. That’s a typical scare tactics practiced by repressive societies.
You don’t have to describe my position for me; I’m perfectly capable of expressing my own thoughts. Here they are:
If someone’s wife, daughter or sister found themselves broke, I’d invite them to get an honest job, of which there are plenty in my societies. Hell, I don’t remember the last time when I worked less than two jobs! None of them on my back, either. If someone’s wife, daughter or sister prefers, on her own free will, getting naked to working in an honest job, then I tell you it is not my job to stop her.
Not everyone is forced into prostitution, dear. Some women simply prefer to make money in this way, and they don’t want an honest job. You operate under this mistaken premise that all prostitutes have been forced into the industry by hunger, poverty or violence, that someone can “make you” take your clothes off for money. Plenty of them are in this business voluntarily. They can be flipping burgers or cleaning houses, but they prefer to have sex for money, because it’s easier. Do you know why some college girls choose to strip dance while most work as waitresses or babysitters to make extra money? Because the first group loves easy money and avoids hard work. Is it my job to stop them?
And now I’d love for you to tell me what financial assistance programs exist in Saudi for prostitutes who want to mend their ways and become “productive” members of society. I’d love for you to tell me what assistance an impoverished Saudi woman can find if she needs money and wants to find a job.
Finally, again I note that you dedicate all your energy to these poor women victims and pay absolutely no mind to men, paying clients, who make prostitution possible. My dear, no prostitute will be in business, in America, Saudi or the moon, if men weren’t willing to pay to have sex with them. Why don’t you address your scorn to these men who are ready to pay women money for sex?
Medina, there you go with the black or white again. Just imagine that there are people, not just women but men as well as there ARE male prostitutes too, that do NOT feel like they are degrading themselves selling sex. They do not share the same religion as you so they do not have the same taboos against sex as you do. I have a personal problem with a man having more than one wife. I think it degrades women and destroys the family unit. I think that is more despicable than a free woman choosing to sell sex for a living in a regulated, safe and legal profession. I believe that any woman that would knowingly marry a man who already has a wife is degrading herself AND her family and is doing nothing more than selling sex in order to be taken care of. Do you agree?
NN, where prostitution is legal that job WOULD be an ‘honest’ living. No?
“Not everyone is forced into prostitution, dear”
below is an extract of an interview with a prostiuted woman/ sex worker/[prostitute who sells herself in the same area of ipswich (in the uk) from which 5 women , also prostitutes,had been abducted and murdered.
“She is selling herself in order to buy drugs, specifically heroin and crack cocaine.
It’s the same for all of the other prostitutes she knows. She says: “I can’t name one girl who doesn’t have a drug habit who works the streets.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6342091.stm
“male prostitutes too, that do NOT feel like they are degrading themselves selling sex”
we call them rentboys in the uk. i think you’re thinking of gigolos, lynn. most, if not all rentboys have suffered serious abuse at the hands of older men, are mostly homeless young men with substance abuse problems who greatly desire to leave this line of work.
Do you call female prostitutes rentgirls? If not, why not?
Gigolos are different from male prostitutes. There are women that have ‘sugar daddies’ and they are not the same as a prostitute either.
Drug addicts do a lot of things feed their addictions but not all drug addicts resort to prostitution and not all prostitutes are drug addicts.
@Africana
And who put a gun to her head and forced her to develop a drug habit?
All you did was cement my conviction that women who choose to be prostitutes have serious problems to begin with. Of course they do! Would they choose to be hookers if they didn’t?
@africana…
Your entire post says to me the benefit of a prostitute being protected by the law. Where it is regulated they don’t have to generally worry about abduction and murder.
I saw a program on the brothels in Nevada…it was eye opening!
Firstly the girls are carefully chosen by the owners of the brothels. That means no druggies, no alcoholics, no disease ridden women can apply. They must be in general good health and they are NOT being forced into it. There are many applicants and the brothel accepts what they consider the best of the best!
Secondly, the girls get to make the rules of what they will and won’t do sexually for money. So if someone is uncomfortable with a particular kink they don’t do it.
Thirdly, they are checked WEEKLY by a doctor or a nurse for health issues and often(I forget how often) blood is drawn to check for aids and other such issues. God! they see a doctor about 100X more than me!
Fourth, the men are thoroughly checked for any obvious signs of disease by the girl and must wear protection…any refusal of this and they are politely shown the door.
Fifth, there is an alarm system available in the girls rooms so that if there is an emergency she can sound the alarm and in seconds people are at her door to help.
Sixth, she is given a hefty amount of her earnings (most of it) and the house takes a cut. The house’s cut goes toward their profit but also pays for the care of the girls.
Seventh, many of the girls have repeat customers that they see over and over again and the men come to care for the women in a way. That is an added layer of protection…the men are known to them.
Eighth, I love this one…there are house rules. A man must abide by them. If he won’t he can’t use the brothel, if he breaks the rules he is banned from coming back…so there is a really strong incentive to mind your manners and behave.
A lot of the girls do it to make money and because it is a protected and safe environment… they work a set amount of time and then leave the business and use their earnings to start businesses that are “legitimate”.
Because it is regulated by the state of Nevada, the brothels must follow a strict set of guidelines and people actually do check up on it. If they are violating the rules they can be closed down. So for everyone it works…the girls, the johns, the owners, the state.
I was a bit blown away by the show because I had no idea it was so regulated…there are things I am forgetting I am sure but the point is…one can make a moral judgement and in a perfect world there would be no need for prostitution. But by realizing it is going to happen whether or not it is legal at least they are making it a safe environment for all.
That does not mean all men will visit a brothel…again it comes down to a personal choice and morals and ethics of each individual.
@oby,
I think I am the one who is being misunderstood here. Your whole argument is based against the idea that “women are forced to go for prostitutions to satisfy their financial needs” and you are saying that “If they legalize it the women are protected, they have healthcare which can stop diseases from spreading, the women are not preyed upon by pimps who beat them up, keep them drugged and don’t even allow them any of their earnings”. Well done. You also mentioned that it is not necessary when a woman get a broke, she will go directly to prostitution. Well done.
The first thing that you missed here is my definition of the word “forced”, I defined the word “force” in my reply to anthrgeek above in the sense that “ if any country facilitates prostitutions by its laws, bad people will take these laws for granted and they will use their money to seduce more people to go for prostitution. That is HOW I Defined the word “force” the thing that you missed in your argument. So, I am saying that not everyone gets broke will go for prostitutions straight away but some will do because they are seduced by money or because they have no other options to pay their debts, needs etc. you argue also that eliminating prostitutions from societies is beyond our human ability. With my respect to your argument, I am sorry, I can not buy this, and I would say that people are able to stop it. Governments can issue strict laws and name fines against anyone involve in prostitutions ranging from the one who pay for porn, broadcasting, publishing till the prostitutes etc.
You stated that you are against prostitution and it humiliates human dignity, so, I am saying let us unite efforts and find alternatives to people who can fall in prostitutions.
P.S my talk is not exclusively about Netherlands, I am speaking for you and for myself and for every single person on this earth who does not want his human dignity to be violated by legalizing prostitutions industry.
There is also a misunderstanding about health care. Dear, HIV tests are recommended three months after potential exposure to HIV infection and in rare cases it takes to 6 months. So, how can you argue that legalizing prostitutions make a healthy sex?
I pass my sympathy to you regarding the difficult time you lived during your student life.
@NN,
Why do you yell at me ): ? Do you want me to yell back at you to wake up my next door neighbors? I do not think so (:
“That’s a typical scare tactics practiced by repressive societies”
Is American society repressive because politicians use typical scare tactics in their speech about the national security in reference to illegal immigrants and terrorism?
My argument to oby is also directed to you because we speak about one issue.
In Saudi , there are a lot of programs for financing divorced people, widows and orphans, they receive monthly salary and they receive foods, clothes etc from civil charitable organizations supported by the government. I can name many organizations for charity in Saudi. So, in Saudi, there is a social and financial support for poor people.
@lynn,
“there you go with the black or white again. Just imagine that there are people, not just women but men as well as there ARE male prostitutes too, that do NOT feel like they are degrading themselves selling sex”.
So, you are saying that prostitution is not a big issue in terms of humanity? And you are saying wow just leaves them and we can enjoy watching them. Lynn, what if your daughter tomorrow gets exploited by these bad people? Are you going to be happy that people watching her? Lynn, there are ladies now at this hour; people are watching them and they are alive and they have parents or kids. So, do not only think about yourself and leave others for their needs. My argument above is also directed to you.
Regarding polygamy, I am not in favor of polygamy but there is a big difference between prostitution and polygamy. polygamy is marriage with responsibility and it produces kids. So, your comparison is off line here. Take a cup of tea lynn because I think you need it heheh.
Salam all
@Medina
“With my respect to your argument, I am sorry, I can not buy this, and I would say that people are able to stop it. Governments can issue strict laws and name fines against anyone involve in prostitutions ranging from the one who pay for porn, broadcasting, publishing till the prostitutes etc.”
In that case, I invite you to share with us the name of one country (will be happy with one) where people have been able to stop it. All the measures you named and then some have already been implemented by countless countries. So do tell me about that blessed place on earth where people have been able to stop the oldest profession on the planet.
@Medina…
It is clear that we will not see eye to eye on this.
If I had my druthers I would rather that there be no need for prostitution…it would be wonderful wouldn’t it? Men kept it in their pants and with their wives or significant other and women would keep their dignity (as you say). However, we are not living in a utopia as much as we all might like to. We are living in a world where men can’t keep their privates to themselves and women for a varied number of reasons will provide it for a fee. Some will do it because they have a drug habit to support, but even here prostitution is not the issue…it is the drug habit that is the problem and the prostitution is a means to an end, some will do it because they are bored and want a little excitement. (I am talking about high level escorts), some will do it (like the girls I pointed out above) for the quick money it provides to get them to the next step. A lot of the women are educated, but for whatever reason chose this line of work to build their savings faster…Being a high level hooker pays better than accounting apparently. Blame it on the men willing to pay high prices and women who as adults have no issues providing it for men. I am not here to judge why someone might chose to be a hooker. Only she can say.
What I can’t seem to impart to you is that MOST women would not do such a thing as it is against their ethics. Again, just because it is around and legal does not make it an attractive choice of employment for every or even most women. Guns are legal in the USA. I am against guns… just because it is legal DOESN’T mean I am forced to own one. It is my ethical choice not to. And a lot of people don’t.
If one choses not to partake in prostitution (which BTW is illegal everywhere except Nevada) one doesn’t have to.
“bad people will take these laws for granted and they will use their money to seduce more people to go for prostitution.”
AGAIN, it is up to the ethics of the woman…maybe because in KSA people are used to things being banned so they aren’t required to make personal choices about right or wrong. I don’t know. BUT you are selling women short here. You could have offered me a million dollars to be a prostitute and I would have never taken it. Just like you could offer me a million dollars to kill someone and I wouldn’t take it. it is about ETHICS. I don’t view prostitution as a vehicle for me… some other person might.
But NN is right. There is not a place here on earth it isn’t going on. that does not mean I think it is great. Even in KSA I am sure there is a healthy underground prostitution industry…perhaps smaller than other places because they make it tough, but when men want sex they will find sex. Either free or paid for. In this regard I think porn may serve a purpose…he can watch it by himself and get release while not having to go to a prostitute. And perhaps this is better in the privacy of his own home than out looking for women.
“HIV tests are recommended three months after potential exposure to HIV infection and in rare cases it takes to 6 months. So, how can you argue that legalizing prostitutions make a healthy sex?”
As you see above I said the men are checked for diseases…that means the woman inspects his privates visually for any lesions, discharge, bumps or weird things…HIV can’t be seen of course, that is why the man is required to wear a condom (protection). So he doesn’t spread anything to the prostitute…when a man comes to these places he can almost be guaranteed (though there is nothing 100%) that the prostitute is clean. The protection is for the PROSTITUTE’S benefit…not the man. Again a layer of protection for the woman. If, BY CHANCE, she does become HIV positive somewhere along the line, the condom will protect the man from contracting disease.And if the girl gets sick her career at these places is over. In these situations it is the WOMAN who is in control and in the driver’s seat. The man wants sex, but in order to get it he has to abide by the rules laid out.
It is a tricky subject for sure. In the end, I think it is up to the women to make that choice. But Medina it doesn’t only lie with women. I see it the same as someone being a drug addict. Yes, the drug addict is wrong for taking drugs but so is the person who supplies the drugs to the addict for a profit. It is a two way street and until MEN who are the ones who hold the money in this situation stop the demand for sex it will go on. If there wasn’t a demand there would be no supply. It boils down to economics…and yes I know that is a cold way of thinking about it it is the truth. Prostitutes are in it to make money. If they couldn’t make money the industry wouldn’t exist.
@Medina…
“My argument to oby is also directed to you because we speak about one issue.
In Saudi , there are a lot of programs for financing divorced people, widows and orphans, they receive monthly salary and they receive foods, clothes etc from civil charitable organizations supported by the government. I can name many organizations for charity in Saudi. So, in Saudi, there is a social and financial support for poor people.”
Medina…we do too. My tax dollars go to support that VERY big program. It helps with housing, food, medical care(better in some cases than those with insurance), job training, it gives a stipend in many cases. If a person loses their job they get some help financially called “unemployment benefits”, if someone is disabled they get help. If a parent dies while a child is under age, the kids get a financial benefit as well as the remaining parent. this doesn’t count all the private businesses who donate to charities, the local food banks where the poor can get food if needed and the thousands of churches, synagogues and I am sure, mosques that provide help. Although I know for churches and synagogues a person’s religious affiliation doesn’t matter. They will help all. Mosques on the other hand I believe help only Muslims…this annoys me…but I digress…help is available. People still chose prostitution. Go figure.
Medina, Bahrain has similar charitable groups as well which my husband availed of at every turn. They were always happy to give him money, pay his bills, give us food coupons etc…however, the moment we divorced they couldnt bring themselves to offer me the same sort of charity they willingly gave him….even though I was now a single mother of 5 kids. My best friend who is Bahraini actually had to shame them in the local papers to get them to help me in some way…their main excuse for not helping me??? I took the hijab off after divorce.
How dare I right?
Those charities proved only one thing…they are more than willing to help you if you “look” like you deserve it.
@NN,
In Saudi for example, if there is prostitution, it is very rare cases and it happens in secret and it does not affect the society. Why do not we take Saudi system as a good example to follow to stop prostitution?
@oby,
I understand what you say but if prostitution is legalized as an industry then it will be a common thing, a basic thing in our life like smoking, the consequences are painful and it will affect the whole society at the end.
@coolred,
They are horrible if they do such thing like that and it seems that the people who run these charities are religiously oriented, so they considered you a sinner and then no help for a sinner. These perceptions towards whome are considered sinners must be changed. And you have my voice in this regard.
salam
NN and Oby said everthing I would say.
‘These perceptions towards whome are considered sinners must be changed’
So, Medina, are you willing to change YOUR perception of sinners and take care of one of these women who are forced to resort to prostitution or would you turn her away in disgust?
IF there is prostitution in Saudi? I told you I know someone who visited one in Riyadh 40 years ago. Do you think that was just a fluke?
‘if prostitution is legalized as an industry then it will be a common thing, a basic thing in our life like smoking’
Seriously, if you went to Las Vegas or Amsterdam would you visit a prostitute? It’s legal. So will you? If not, why not? Well, that’s the same reason why all those others will not either. Would you, while you are there, sell YOUR body for some fast cash? NO? Well, that’s the same reason why the majority of other human beings would not. So you really need to give up that argument.
I second Lynn’s arguments.
I also mentioned much earlier in this discussion that any woman, even a prostitute, has more rights, and more protection and help and legal rights In the Netherlands than any woman in Saudi Arabia has.
I noticed Medina did not take me up on that one. Just deflected the focus to make the argument into how bad he thinks it is to legalise prostitution.
So what have you to say on my argument? A prostitute in the Netherlands has more rights and protection from the official powers as a woman in Saudi Arabia.
Let us put an end of this argument by the following,
We belong to two different schools of philosophy: Pragmatism where end justifies the means and ethicism where ethics justifies the means. So, we have different criteria when it comes to human rights, your criteria do not apply to us and my criteria do not apply to you.
And it is up to you to belong to which schools of philosophy. But my argument is addressing your human ethics because you are still human beings. Also, do not feel upset when people think that large segment of your societies sell their bodies for money because you reinforce that by laws and practice.
Aafk, you will never understand the rights given to Saudi ladies till ethics philosophy get active in your brain instead of pragmatism. Saudis are ethically oriented and you are pragmatically oriented. So any comparison is off line here.
salam
A prostitute in Netherlands has rights from officials to abuse her body and disrepect herself and spreads AIDS. In Saudi the women are protected from being used in such a cheap and disgusting way.
People sit there in Netherlands and say that selling the body is all okay and spreading AIDS is okay as long as they are practising ther man-given rights. But women who are protected from abuse by covering and respecting themselves are being violated! The irony…!
They will say its all okay but when it comes to their own children, they will hate that it happens to them.
Satan said that he will make wrong seem fair on earth and put all people (except those who are sincere) in the wrong … and this is what is happening.
Medina, I see you do not quite understand what you are talking about.
You begin with the wrong proposition: ”ethics and pragmatism are mutually exclusive”.
Which is a fallacy. You are talking about objective morality.
Pragmatism can actually support ethics.
Your argument is false because ethics and pragmatism are not mutually exclusive, we change our ethics constantly, all over the world, based on our pragmatic re-evaluation of the world we live in.
As an example, I am firmly against the abuse of women. I think prostitution is abuse of women. I think taking a woman’s right to think for herself and make her own decisions is abuse of women.
However, I also consider it unethical to stand by while women who work in prostitution are being maltreated.
Legalizing prostitution (which exists everywhere whether one likes it or not) forms a framework in which there is some control, and it gives prostitutes the possibility to have rights. It also helps to eliminate the criminal part of prostitution.
But it is unethical to take choice of people away. Even if they make bad choices.
Nobody can, or should, tell other people what they can think or do.
And so I think it is unethical to take away woman’s control over their life based on the concept that you’re protecting them .
And that is my position on Saudi: Saudi women do not have basic rights. They are not even legal entities; they are perpetual minors.
We see in the real world that men are just as often less capable as women and weaker of mind and understanding than the other way around. So why should a man have the power to to take away women’s rights and tell women what to do?
You argument is a bad position, I can turn it around:
My ethical position can be that every human being should be free.
Now your argument is: I have to protect women because they are weaker.
And that argument, that makes you the pragmatist.
And I still see no valid argument against my statement that women, even prostitutes, have more rights in the Netherlands than any woman has in Saud Arabia.
Well said Aafke. If I were you, I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for a valid argument nor will I hold mine waiting for a response to MY questions about whether he would visit or become a prostitute when visiting a place where it is legal and according to him, EVERYone falls into it.
Sarah MD/..there would be NO AIDS to spread etc if men didnt avail themselves of a prostitutes “charms”…which reminds me…why is it again Saudis (men particularly) are forbidden to travel to such countries that offer such “charms” on a large scale?
Oh yes, they were bringing home more than trinkets as gifts for their wives. Go figure.
Coolred
“Sarah MD/..there would be NO AIDS to spread etc if men didnt avail ”
Exactly, so why legalize it? Why would you want Saudis to visit such lands anyway?
Lynn
Are you kidding me? Men do not go to these women? Of course they do? If they didn’t then they would not selling their bodies.
What I think is that no country shouldcome to that level whereits people have to sell themeselves (which is abuse). So if the country makes it legal then it is absuing its citizens. If a woman or a man cannot find decent jobs to make ends meet, then it should the job if its leaders to do something about it. (Any country).
By allowing prostitutes to do what they do, is just disgusting and shameful. Don’t give that they are free to do what they want. If they are harming the society then they cannot do what they want. There is a limit to freedom – don’t take it so far. If someone wants to kill himself, then its his choice, why stop him? It is his basic right to do what he wants. Come on! Think of it them as your own family members. If its your child, will freedom play its role? Why are policemen jailing the thieves. It is their right to steal! Think about it.
@Aafk,
Terminology is not a big issue. Terminology is elusive if we want to track its etymology. In sum, my argument is against exploiting poor ladies or seducing them for sex and money and violating their human dignity for “moral and human” reason. This is my main motive. And it is for you and for me for lynn and for oby for everyone. Why this “moral/human motive” is not considered? Why the argument here is against it? So, we divided, people who are against it, morals justifies the means and people who are saying we can not eliminate it from the society so let us just legalize it, ends justifies the means. I do not think that it is hard to get my point.
Regarding the comparison, I still believe it is invalid proposition aafk, because we have different standards to consider in such issue. Laws for legalizing prostitution, I consider them given executioners to humiliate ladies who should never be prostitute. Saudis laws I consider them for protecting ladies from such bad people.
@lynn,
Do not get me wrong plz, I did not mean to ignore your questions, I was just busy with my study and my previous post was directed to you although I did not mention that. Do not take it personally and sorry if you were waiting my response.
To answer your questions:
“are you willing to change YOUR perception of sinners and take care of one of these women who are forced to resort to prostitution or would you turn her away in disgust?
I do not considered them sinners, I am not religiously oriented to go this one is sinner and the other is not. I am humanly oriented. And yes, I will care about the one who is forced in prostitution and I will never turn her away in disgust.
“IF there is prostitution in Saudi? I told you I know someone who visited one in Riyadh 40 years ago. Do you think that was just a fluke?”
I did not deny that and I said that prostitution is everywhere even in Saudi and I think this point is already answered.
“Seriously, if you went to Las Vegas or Amsterdam would you visit a prostitute? It’s legal. So will you? If not, why not? Well, that’s the same reason why all those others will not either. Would you, while you are there, sell YOUR body for some fast cash? NO?”
I will never ever visit a prostitute because I hate to see a human being in such position. The last question just made me hehehe, are you trying to make of me a prostitute theoretically hehehe. Well, No I will never sell my body for some fast cash as others do.
salam
” Why are policemen jailing the thieves. It is their right to steal! ”
hence the jail because i complain big time.
– not to steal my property
But if there was a lady selling herself ( as i’m sure there are) .. and it has no effect on me would i complain ? no i wouldn’t
so the theif /prostitute comparison wouldn’t work..
as for the killing logic.. suicide does happen you know.. and so does the dealth sentence… now that is one thngi would love to see gone…
Where to start, prostitution… rights for women…
There is only ONE reason for prostitution. It is because MEN want to have sex. Men want to have prostitutes. Men make prostitution exist.
So don’t blame the women. blame the men. Men start all this.
Yet I see only blame on the women by some people.
You see when this brave lady who did this interview spoke out and told the saudis about being attacked by a saudi student she was the one to suffer. He was not. He was the criminal but it was her fault.
It is not tyhe woman’s fault if a man attacks her: it is the man’s fault.
It is not womans fault there exists prostitution. It is the men who are at fault.
@aafke-art, your argument is good but not complete. I would say in all countries women have more rights and have those rights protected more as women in saudia. Women in saudia have no rights in law.
@ Medina can you explain what you mean with ”large segment of your societies sell their bodies for money because you reinforce that by laws and practice.”??
what large segment is that? Where is the proof it is a ”large segment”??
You are wrong women sell their bodies only because allowed. It is not allowed in saudi and yet there is prostitution there too.
And besides prostitution there are the many maids who are raped so often.
@ saraMD If a prostitute contracts aids she will have contracted it from a costomer. a man!
and that man has been spreading aids around.
you say: ”In Saudi the women are protected from being used in such a cheap and disgusting way. ”
I will tell you how saudia protects it’s women:
-men come home from their sex holidays in thailand and morocco and infect their wives. Where is the protection for these wives?
-a few months ago a ten year old girl was ”sold” into ”marriage” to an old man with hepatitis B a deadly sexually transmitted desease. Nobody stops it. where is this girls right to refuse? who will protect her from dying a horrible death after she contracts her ”husbands” sexually transmitted desease?
-healthy saudi girls have been married to cousins who contracted Aids because it’s a right for saudi men to be married. How can you call these girls protected?
Where does this famous protection of women show? It is non existant.
Women are used as commodity. they are property. young girls can be sold in sexual slavery to old men and there is no protection for them The girl did not want this, but her opinion has no value.
In Yemen a man in his thirties married a 13 year old girl. He went to a clinic and asked them to sedate her because she would fight him and not allow him to rape her.
it is clear this girl did not want to be married to this man.
But nobody protected her. the clinic refused to sedate her but they did not protect her. They let ger go with a man who had stated he wanted to rape her.
Why?
because women are not protected in Saudia and Yemen. They are posessions and the man had brought her and she was his to with as he pleased.
He tired her up and raped her.
So bad that he had to go back to the clinic again because she was so hurt that she could not walk. The clinic patched her up and told the man to leave her alone for two weeks as she was too damaged inside.
But they did nothing to protect her from this cruel rapist. She was his property so they let him take her back again.
he raped her again.
Next day she had bled to death because of internal injuries.
Such is the protection a woman can expect.
@ save the women,
My proof is GOOGLE and you can do it your self, click on internet explorer, open the Google homepage, google porn, or sex and count how many websites pop up there. You do not need to tell me the result; it is only for you to make sure that I have a proof. Legalizing prostitution makes it increase in numbers and affect more people from the society. Can you deny this? I do not think so.
Regarding marriage in Saudi, I will respond to although it is for Sara MD but I think she will not mind me and she can speak for herself.
Saudi people protested in mass media, blogs against that stupid man but the girl insisted to marry him and her mum agreed and her father agreed, and she has been taken to the court for three times but all efforts failed because she insisted. She met a committee of women and men explaining to her and her parents that this is something bad for her but they refused all the efforts. So after this incident immediately and within 2 months
Saudi issued new law state that it is illegal to marry a girl under 17 years old.
Regarding raping maids, maids expose to rape in all countries and it I still considered a crime in Saudi system and the sentence for rape generally is the capital punishment.
In the Yemen accident, That is really sad and it is a crime and I really felt so sad for her and her family who sold her out but Yemen is not Saudi and we are not responsible for them.
Regarding Saudis who go for sex in other countries, the same question is directed to you; show me the law that protects women in America from such men behaviors? If there is any law, I will support it to adapt it in Saudi system?
The point that I do agree with you is that I do not blame ladies I blame men and the legislators that legalize prostitution. And yes men are horrible; you still have my voice in this point.
salam
Medina, you are the one who brought up these terminologies, you brought up ”ethics” and ”pragmatism”. Nobody introduced these terminologies but you.
You have to make up your mind if you want to talk about the philosophical background or the abuse of women, or religious morality.
But you can’t bring up one argument, and if you cannot answer the counter argument say you want to talk about something else.
Stop shifting your ground.
And no, I did not completely get your last comment, your sentences are very confusing.
I do not get your position because you keep shifting it.
Here is my position which hasn’t changed:
I am against exploiting women.
I am against the existence of prostitution.
I don’t want prostitution to exist.
But as long as men want it there will be prostitution and it cannot be stopped.
As this is as it is I want some control so that abuse can at least be limited. legalizing it provides that control.
And: Women in the Netherlands, even prostitutes, have more rights than any woman in Saudi Arabia.
Where are the ethics here?
Make me understand what the ethical position is: Women are treated as second class citizens in Saudi Arabia. Where is the ethics in that?
You answered it by claiming that I don’t understand ethics and therefore cannot understand, but when I want to talk about ethics you say it’s just a term and you don’t want to talk about it.
You still don’t give us a reason why you think that is a moral way to treat human beings.
@aafk,
I used these terminologies to make broad terms that involve your opinions in terms of ethics in pragmatism but these ethics I explained it in the sense that “end justifies the means and my opinions in term of ethics which here I defined it as morals based on morals justify the means. These terms are to make cut short of the argument and make it in broad terms involve all opinions but you take it for granted and excused me of shifting ground. So, I do not think it is my fault here.
“Here is my position which hasn’t changed:
I am against exploiting women.”
I greet you for this.
“I am against the existence of prostitution”.
Me too,
“I don’t want prostitution to exist”
Me too and I wish it never existed.
“But as long as men want it there will be prostitution and it cannot be stopped.”
We came to BUT
“As this is as it is I want some control so that abuse can at least be limited. Legalizing it provides that control”
I do not agree. I say stop it by laws. Here we are different but not a big issue as it is in your country and you believe it is the best solution but I just give you my suggestion to not legalize it because I still believe it violate these human dignity.
“And: Women in the Netherlands, even prostitutes, have more rights than any woman in Saudi Arabia.”
I believe that these rights are not for prostitutes favor but for legalizing violating their human dignity. So these laws facilitate and legalize violating prostitutes’ human dignity in Netherlands and it is up to you. Yes, Saudi women do not enjoy prostitutes’ rights because they are not free to be prostitute. Their human dignity is more valuable than these given rights.
“Make me understand what the ethical position is: Women are treated as second class citizens in Saudi Arabia. Where is the ethics in that?”
There are morals and Saudi women they are full aware about their rights and they are very responsible and they share us the responsibility by giving up some of their freedom but it is for protecting the whole society. And they are not second class citizens. Do not be mean.
“You answered it by claiming that I don’t understand ethics and therefore cannot understand, but when I want to talk about ethics you say it’s just a term and you don’t want to talk about it”
I told you dear aafk, you have predispositions and here you prejudge my intentions hehehe. By the way, I like your remarks for intentions hehehe.
“You still don’t give us a reason why you think that is a moral way to treat human beings.”
I do not treat them this way but they are treated this way because Saudi women believe in morality.
Salam
Sarah MD….Saudi men should be able to travel wherever they want…regardless of whether or not prostitution is available in that country shouldnt matter…those men shouldnt be going to prostitutes anyhow. So the existence of prostitution is only a problem for those that partake in it….if Saudi men didnt go to prostitutes then they wouldnt take it home to their wives.
Its not Thailand or whatever countries fault because Saudi men go to their prostitutes…its the culture of Saudi that raises men who think theycan have sex whenever and with whomever and never be held accountable….but for Saudi women…a whole other ball game.
In other words…prostitution is there…its not going anywhere…men, Saudi men and all other men…need to stop going to them and then it might die out….women are not the ones that keep prostitution alive and well.
Boy…does it ever feel to anyone else that trying to get a point across is like riding the same Merry Go Round over and over??? Maybe it is just me…
Medina…
A. Laws have not stopped the prostitutes or the men who partake in it. It is illegal and people are arrested and put in jail and it goes on…do you know why? Because right behind these people are others willing to give money to get sex and those willing to supply it. Unless one wants to kill every person who engages in it either men or women. Not sure I am in favor of laws that strict for having illegal sex…murder, maybe…sex, no. It is illegal as hell in all but one state of the USA. We still got plenty of hookers and johns.
B… Do you think that men are destroying their human dignity by going to prostitutes? If so maybe you can tell me why men so willingly and repeatedly are willing to destroy their human dignity..some men over and over and no one seems to be quite as worried about the men who make that choice.
C..do you think men should be forbidden to use the services of a prostitute and if he does how should he be punished?
D….Legalizing it CONTROLS it (I am NOT saying legalize it, but I am arguing ONE possible option based on practicality) That means no drugs, no murders, no disease, no violence etc. If we look at it from an impassioned view rather than a moral one we might find an answer.
During the 1920′s in America was something called prohibition. Liquor was made illegal and there were stiff penalties for either drinking or selling it. They were sure that they could wipe out the ills of drinking. Guess what? Alcohol became more popular than ever. Read up on it. It was amazing the lengths that people went to to sell it, buy it and consume it. Really ingenious ways of getting around the law. Those that believed in prohibition put up a really good fight to wipe alcohol out. But it didn’t. It drove it further underground and people who “bootlegged” for a living became VERY wealthy. Crime syndicates arose around the illegal alcohol, violence became more rampant with one group of illegal smugglers trying to wipe out the other. It was a mess. All I am saying is that sometimes no matter how hard a country tries some things can be difficult to wipe out. If there is a demand, people will find a way to fill the demand even if they hide it and go to great lengths to do what they shouldn’t.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States
Save the Women,
Medina has answered most of my points. Thanks for that.
I agree with you that its men at fault and that is why I said that if these women do not have customers, they will not think of doing this. It is not something they enjoy or want to do. It is a kind of call for help.
But all those things you mentioned happening in Saudi, they happen in the West too. They do have sex tourists, they do marry young girls, even fathers rape their daughters, they hide them in basement and make them pregnant, they use young girls, sometimes pick them from the streets or from third world countries or russia and train them into porn movies promising them big money which never comes. You find pimps all over in the West. It is not something only in Saudi. You find grandfathers raping their three yr old granddaughters even. Where are the protections for these women and girls? What is the gov doing to protect them. Some kidnap girls and hold them for years and years, raping them all the time. Of the kidnapper is punished. My point is it happens in the West and East too, so do no point fingers at Saudi only.
In Saudi, the gov is protecting the woman but if locals take it to their own hands and do these crimes then they are punished (something which you people call barbaric). Saudi did not legalize prostitution. And as Medina mentioned, the gov is making laws to protect the women even more because of cases you mentioned.
@Radha
Ok the thief steals something from you then its a crime. If the prostitute transfers her Aids or any other diseases, to another then what do you say? Is it not something that the society will be effected? Besides does it not show the cheapness of the streets? I still say that the leaders should help these women.
And the thing is people in high societies need these “escorts” for their own pleasures. These women get paid a lot by these “high” officials. The gov people themselves are customers so why stop it! If you ask me for prove, just listen to the news.
My point is that women in the rest of the world have better rights than the women in Saudi Arabia.
I do not understand why people here do not understand a simple statement like that.
I did not say that the most important right for women is the right to be a prostitute. Only Medina says so. Makes me wonder how his brain works.
Please stop coming up with these strawman fallacies. It’s so stupid. So dumb. I am getting so tired of it.
You just don’t want to answer the tough questions. So no matter how much I dumb it down you willfully use a strawman argument so you don’t have to confront the issue.
Rights, human rights, legal rights, mean being able to go to the police and get protection and help. To have a government and laws which protect you.
Women in Saudi Arabia do not have rights equal to the rights of women in the rest of the world.
That is not a moral or ethical position.
Nobody ”gives up” rights. They are taken away by dictators.
The mahram system is an abuse to women. If the mahram abuses the women she can’t even go to court because the mahram has to represent her: she cannot go to court without him.
That is not protection that is oppression
What about all the women who do not subscribe to the fascist *”protection” in lieu of freedom*????. For that is the fascist creed: Give up your freedom for an imaginary sense of protection.
STW showed very clearly that there is no protection for women.
And there is no choice, a woman cannot choose if she relinquishes her freedom and rights for this imaginary protection or not. She is forced to live without rights.
There are a great many Saudi women who do not want to live without rights.
Why do you keep calling ultimate oppression, lawlessness, and arbitrary abuse ”protection”???
Why do you keep repeating women agree with it? Sure in a country where all women have to endure religious brainwashing from baby onwards to get them to see it in that light an unnatural percentage of women will comply to that distorted view.
But as we see there are enough Saudi women who have superior intelligence and backbone to disagree even after a lifetime of the treatment.
What about those women???
Where is their right to prefer normal human rights?
They are still under the yoke of gender oppression and gender apartheit.
To me Saudi Arabia is a very scary place. Very very scary. for all women. Always having to live under the whims of not one dictator, but the whole half of the population are dictators over you with absolute power, with the whole police, government and ”justice” system at their side, with even the compulsory religion at their side. It’s a nightmare.
And no rights. (do you get this?) no rights for women!!!
What really matters about Laws is when there is a problem. When things are going well there is no need for laws. But when they go wrong it goes horribly wrong for women. Especially when the mahram is involved. Because they have no recourse to law, there are no laws to protect them fully, they cannot even try and make use of them because they need their mahram to represent them. if the mahram is involved then what?
There are no rights, there is no protection by law or government for women in Saudi Arbia.
Aafke,
Besides, Human Right means the right to make decisions about their lives themselves, not by someone else.
I think even if the Mahram is kind-hearted and generous and gives every freedom to his female wards, it is still an abuse of the woman who is not given the right to decide for herself and has to seek a permission letter from her Mahram.
Even if the Mahram gives the permission letter, it is still an abuse and humiliating to the woman.
My father is no more and I have two adult brothers who are very considerate, kind and caring. But I’ll never seek a permission letter from them to do anything, because I consider it demeaning to my own dignity, not because my brothers will ever refuse.
I am free to make the decisions of my life and I will never surrender this freedom, no matter how caring, understanding and generous my brothers may be.
Same logic applies for the Saudi women – be it father, brother, husband or any other male kinsman.
Besides, a Saudi man does not have any right to talk about prostitution in the West.
One, if he doesn’t accept any kind of criticism of Saudi Arabia from non-Saudis, what right does he have to criticise others of legalising prostitution?
Two, with due apologies to all concerned who may not agree with me –
in my opinion, extremist Islam as it is ptractised in Saudi Arabia virtually makes all women into prostitutes – a marriage in Saudi Arabia is not valid unless the woman is sold for a price to the groom. Islam in Saudi Arabia has legalised prostitution by making marriage as equivalent to prostitution.
If a woman is divorced or widowed, the only way extremist Islam sees her to be able to support herself is through offering herself again to a man in so-called “marriage” where she is again sold to this new “husband.”
If you remember, we had a long debate on this a few months ago about the price for a bride in Islam.
If you remember, I said there that Indian Muslims don’t pay this money at the time of marriage but defer it to the time of divorce, if divorce ever happens and if no divorce happens, then the money is never paid to the woman.
That’s is why I am mentioning here the extremist Islam of Saudi Arabia, not all Islam.
At least a Saudi man doesn’t have any right to speak from a high moral ground about prostitution, when Saudi Islam virtually makes all women into prostitutes.
Besides, so far Madina has not criticised his fellow countrymen who visit the Third World to look for prostitutes.
What happens to their Islam and high morality at that time?
Daisy, yes. The essence of freedom is the freedom to choose for yourself. I think all reasonable people here agree on that.
A Saudi woman does not have the right to choose unless her mahram allows it. but the essence is she does not have a right to freedom of choice. And every woman in the west has.
And yes, if a mahram is nice and responsible then a woman is comparatively well off. But it still is a dictatorship. A benign dictator but still a dictator.
And there is no security ever, the benign dictator can be replaced by an evil dictator at any time.
It is just not right that adult human beings should be put into virtual slavery and have to live under an eternal dictatorship.
I agree about Islamic marriage. While I am convinced most couples naturally see it as the proper marriage the way we all regard marriage, the basis in sharia is payment for sex. Housing and food, in return for providing sex and breeding children for the man.
When the woman has lost her usefulness, or another upgrade comes along, the older woman has to lump sharing her husband, and getting less resources for herself and her children, or being discarded. She has no say in the matter. It’s the man’s right, the woman has no right.
I just read an article about it on another blog and all schools regard the bride price as payment for sexual access.
And if the men are the maintainers of women, the women are told to provide sexual access at all times whenever, and however the man chooses. ”Even if she is at the hearth”.
And women belonging to the man’s right hand are sex slaves by default.
To me it seems that in sharia bonded servitude is regarded as the natural state for women in Islam.
Medina, you say that you would not visit a prostitute even if it was legal nor would you become one. So that means that you agree that just because something is legal that not EVERYONE will choose to use it. So YOUR morals stop you just like it stops 99.99% of people now whether it is legal or not. If there is a person who does NOT feel that they are abusing their human dignity by having sex for money then their dignity, for them, remains intact, no matter what you or I or anyone else thinks about their choices. I’m going to go ahead and guess that they also don’t give a crap what WE think about them. And, again, if it IS legal where they practice it, then it IS an honest living.
@Oby -’Boy…does it ever feel to anyone else that trying to get a point across is like riding the same Merry Go Round over and over???’
It really does seem pointless doesn’t it?
‘To me it seems that in sharia bonded servitude is regarded as the natural state for women in Islam.’
But THAT is how Medina defines Human Dignity where WE define Human Dignity as being FREE. Free to make our own decisions on things. Free to make mistakes and LEARN from them. FREE to be able to put our lives back together after learning from our mistakes rather than being killed or branded for life for making bad choices.
Speaking of learning from bad choices, THAT is why it is NOT a bad thing for people to be able to speak about their ‘sins’. Why don’t the men who got a disease from this diseased prostitute speak up as a warning to others not to make the same mistake he did? Too bad he didn’t visit the prostitute in a place where prostitution is legal and he got to see a certificate of health before lowering his human dignity by having to pay for sex.
@sarah MD…
there was a case about 5 years ago in the USA where a man of Arab descent from France had Aids…he knew he had aids, and yet he KNOWINGLY spread it to many women who were his girlfriends who later became HIV positive. Somehow the girls came to know of one another (I forgot how) and they formed a support group. THEN they got really angry when it became a parent that he knew he was positive and was spreading the disease. The women took him to court and WON the case against the man. The court saw him as a predator who was purposely practicing unsafe sex even though he knew he could spread the disease. The court looked at it as no less dangerous than assaulting someone with a deadly weapon. He got life in prison. The women who each thought that they were the only one and that the man wanted to marry them are now living with the consequences of his behavior and can most likely never have an intimate relationship again…
Here in the USA it is taken very seriously and if it can be proven that someone knew they were HIV positive and STILL and unprotected sex They can get very stiff sentences…men or women.
Aafke…
What is STW…I see it often but have no idea what it means. Thanks
STW is another blogger: ”Save the women!”
Check it out.
As we are way too lazy to write down such a long name most people refer to her as STW.
She has a quite inflammatory blog.
@Oby
I agree the man deserves to be punished. Harming another person or the society knowing the consequences deserves to be punished. Keeping this in mind, then why is prostituion legal when the authorities know that it can spread diseases? isn’t prevention better than cure? Isn’t it better to be safe than sorry?
As I said before there is a limit to Freedom.
Sarah MD,
While of course it is always better to be safe than sorry, illegalizing prostitution does NOT stop it.
As has been explained before, where prostitution is legalized it is regulated the women have to be tested all the time, the customers are screened and the use of condoms for protection from diseases is mandatory. All these things cut down or even eliminate the spread of diseases. This is to protect the sex worker as well as her customer.
Where prostitution is NOT legal there is still prostitution but it is NOT regulated and neither the prostitute nor her customer have protection :enter Pimps and diseases here.
I’m going to guess that you would think differently about your ‘better safe than sorry’ argument if it came to racial and/or religious profiling at airports etc. Am I right?
And why do women ”need” protection? Who makes that up? What do women need to be protected from?
If you raise women to be strong, assertive, and self-aware. To have strong morals. And to be aware of their ”dignity”. Combine this with ”rights”, with a police and judicial system which is unbiased against those sinful women, then women are very capable of securing their own protection.
Even if the threat comes out of their own family. they would even be capable of protecting themselves against their ”mahram” if that were necessary.
I mentioned dignity, because I remembered that is what Nujood said. Nujood was married off at 10 years old (of course to a much older man) and she was beaten and raped for 2 months after which she went on her own to court and asked for a divorce. And the reason was in her words: ”They did not respect my dignity”.
A remarkable girl.
SarahMD, if a man chooses to pay a prostitute for sex (making himself the reason for the existence of this immoral trade) And he insists on having sex without a condom, which is really, really dumb, then why blame the prostitute when she has no power?
How does a prostitute contract an std?
Only one way: her immoral, stupid, selfish, idiotic male customers have burdened her with it.
Instead of being grateful that they have the opportunity to get it off with a woman, that any woman, no matter the payment, would actually be willing to get it off with such a loser, they abuse her by being stupid sods who insist on having unprotected sex and hurting her by giving her an std.
And if they contract it from a prostitute they are still stupid sods because any grown up person with a modicum of intelligence, the slightest care for himself and other people, would realize another stupid sod could have abused her with an std, and he would be careful enough to carry his own condoms with him when on his nefarious quest for payed sex with a woman.
It is a well known problem that men are really really dumb and often insist on having unprotected sex with sex-workers. In an environment where the woman has power over whom she sleeps with and under which rules, she will be able to reject such idiots. But that would be in a legalized setting.
Legalizing prostitution is better for everybody, (except stupid men) and will prevent std’s. That is fact.
Lynn, Aafke
Yes if you put that way, I can see your side. If it is illegal, men/women will find ways to do it anyhow.
It is for this reason that I was saying before that women should reach this stage that she has to beg or go into prostitution. Would it not be better that the authorites come up with some ways to help the people who cannot make ends meet?
Sarah MD, I think we are in agreement. Yes of course, it would be so much better.
The Netherlands is very good in social security, and helping the destitute. However, there are always some people who slip through. And to tell you the truth, they can get a lot of money for ”easy” work, and some people just opt for that. There are always stupid silly girls who get lured into it. And once you are in that ”milieu” it is very hard to get out.
And it is not really easy, I have heard too many say after they stopped how it kills their soul. I am really against prostitution. Maybe men can deal with it, but women can’t.
Also, we must remember that it is a very murky business and many women, 50% to 90% certainly, are forced into it, they are victims really and we should feel for them, and also many have been abused as children. Children who get to be abused do get weird mental kinks and are very abusive to themselves, and have no selfrespect. That’s why pedophilia is so evil: it destroy childrens minds. It is a very bad very evil business.
I really think that only a true change in men’s regard for women will ever rid the world of prostitution.
Sarah MD,
I’m glad that you finally understand what it was we were trying to say regarding the legalizing it. The same can be said about legalizing drugs.
Also, it is not always the case that a person who has chosen prostitution has no other means to make ends meet. At least in the US a prostitute is a prostitute because they CHOOSE to be prostitute for whatever reason but no one in this country is FORCED to be a prostitute. Just because someone chooses prostitution doesn’t mean that they did not have other options. Not everyone feels it is morally wrong to provide this kind of ‘service’ so perhaps they wouldn’t even bother looking into other ways to make a living anyway. Perhaps the prostitutes in KSA have no other means but that is not the case in the US.
@Sarah MD
“A prostitute in Netherlands has rights from officials to abuse her body and disrepect herself and spreads AIDS. In Saudi the women are protected from being used in such a cheap and disgusting way. ”
Pet peeve!! No one can spread AIDS. What is spread by sexual contact is known as HIV. What is known as AIDS may or may not develop in someone with HIV. Either learn these basic medical facts or stop using MD (medical doctor!!!) after your name. Grrr.
Aafke,
You know, courtesans have been the subject of many Hindi films and some of the most sensitive songs have been filmed on them. These lines are from a 1981 film song –
“After corrupting me, the world says this woman is corrupt…
Everyone has a prayer on lips,
Perhaps I’m the only one for whom there is no God,
If He was there for me, my life too would have been like that of others…”
@Medina
“There are morals and Saudi women they are full aware about their rights and they are very responsible and they share us the responsibility by giving up some of their freedom but it is for protecting the whole society. And they are not second class citizens. Do not be mean.”
Actually, Saudi women never “gave up” any rights since neither Saudi women nor Saudi men play any role in making the laws of the country. So please do not propagate this myth that any rights in Saudi are willingly given up by anyone.
Or, if you insist, please explain, how and when exactly Saudi women gave up their rights to a) decide what to study, b) decide where to work, c) decide whom to marry, d) decide whom to divorce, e) decide where to travel, f) decide whether to seek medical care, etc (too lazy to list others) without consent of their male guardians. Please point us to the exact historical moment in time when these rights were willingly “given up” by Saudi women. While you are at it, please explain how that situation improves your society.
It is not mean to say that Saudi women are second class citizens, but it is somewhat inaccurate. They are not second class citizens, they are dependents of first-class, male citizens. Because Saudi women require consent of male guardians for most decisions affecting their lives, they are basically perpetual minors (children) regardless of their age. And unlike men, they do not transmit citizenship through marriage, so that little tidbit ought to show that citizenship rights held by Saudi women are qualitatively different from those held by men. Let’s call them things by them right names.
NN
What I meant about spreading AIDS is exactly that. wether is it HIV or whatever. The point is that they are tools to spread AIDS.
Besides, I don’t know why people automatically assume MD in my name relates to medical. They are just my initials.
“Not sure I am in favor of laws that strict for having illegal sex…murder, maybe…sex, no. It is illegal as hell in all but one state of the USA. We still got plenty of hookers and johns.”
So why are you preaching against the laws in the other states and call for legalizing prostitutions? Majority rules.
@lynn,
Freedom is a knife with two blades. Freedom does not guarantee that your dignity will be safe. So, by freedom your dignity could be violated. So morals should justify the means because it will protect you even if you think that it is oppressive and it may restrict your freedom but it is for good. I have an aussie friend. Once she told me, I wish that my parents never let me free and go with that man (her ex boyfriend) she left her family and went with him. She said to me yes it could be oppressive to be live in Saudi but it is for good. I took your position to argue with her but she was against it. She lived an unhappy life because of freedom. That is what she always says to me. So, morals should justify the means not the freedom.
@NN,
“Actually, Saudi women never “gave up” any rights since neither Saudi woman nor Saudi men play any role in making the laws of the country.”
The main issue is that you do not consider that they are Muslims and they follow Islamic teachings. In Saudi, Quran and prophet traditions are the Saudi constitution. Can you stand against American constitution? I do not think so. So, Saudi women also submit to Saudi constitution. So, they give up what you call it “rights” to follow their Islamic teachings. There is another point here. What if a Saudi woman does not want to follow Islam? Well, I would say that majority rules. You will say to me but it is against people freedom. I will say to you in France, wearing burqa is a human right but they banned it and some EU countries follow the French model. So it means majority rules.( I was believing in freedom but after this banning burqa in France I changed my mind and I respect the majortiy rule even though it does not appeal to me). And in Saudi, majority rules too. Mahram system is Islamic 100%. You can search about it but it is Islamic. That is, Saudi women give up some of what you call it “their rights” for protecting the society.
Dear NN, you stated examples like
“a) decide what to study, (this is not true, I have sisters and they are the one who choose their area of study.
b) decide where to work, ( the same thing with some exception to professions that endanger their life.
c) decide whom to marry, (you mean the approval of Mahram? It is Islamic and they submit to Islam, so it is no longer a right.
d) decide whom to divorce, (this is not true and carol posted that many times that Saudi women can get their divorce easily, also the divorce rate in Saudi is more than moderate which means that it is easily the woman divorce her husband)
e) decide where to travel, (this is no longer a right as long as Saudi women are Muslims)
f) decide whether to seek medical care, etc ( this is not true. They can go to any hospital and seek the treatment. Not only that but they are also supported by their families)
I am busy these days in my study. So I may not comment regularly as before when I was in vacation.
salam
@NN…
I missed this somewhere…
“And unlike men, they do not transmit citizenship through marriage”.
How is that possible? If she is Saudi born in Saudi? I know that they have some interesting twists but what if she marries a foreign man and her children are born in Saudi? She still can’t pass on citizenship? Now I am feeling really perturbed at Saudi laws.
@oby
The first part of my previous post is directed to you. I forgot to put your id. sorry
Medina…
I’m not preaching against the laws of other states. I am saying that legalizing it would be one way based on practicality to address the prostitution issue. You are right…Majority rules if it were put up for a vote. And I can say that I don’t think Americans would vote to make it legal. But I also don’t think the system we have for it now is effective…
There is ONE very important element missing in your analysis…all of the things you listed above are allowed ONLY if the mahrem agrees to it. If he says she can’t study she can’t. If he says she can’t travel she can’t. Are you saying we understand wrong? If a girl wants to go to university and study something that her mahrem disagrees with she can still do it?
Why can’t a Muslim woman travel?
“e) decide where to travel, (this is no longer a right as long as Saudi women are Muslims)” Why does being Muslim have anything to do with it?
Also, how is the mahrem system Islamic? No other Islamic country has such a system. Is everyone else wrong about their interpretation of the Qur’an? Or is it possible that it is a CULTURAL phenomenon found only in KSA that has been interpreted as islamic?
“I was believing in freedom but after this banning burqa in France I changed my mind and I respect the majortiy rule even though it does not appeal to me”
Do you REALLY believe in Freedom? Would I as a non Muslim have the right to wear what I want in KSA and would you support that? Or forget non Muslim…what if I was Muslim? Could I wear anything I wanted?
If not then I don’t have freedom there. It is easy to say one believes in freedom OF SOMEONE ELSE’S culture and that when you go there you can wear what you want yet that same person wants to keep their own culture “pure”.(lousy word I know…can’t think of any other that captures it) and doesn’t support those same freedoms inside their own borders.
I have a problem with this. People will be up in arms about the ban of the Burka (which is not a part of the Western culture) but these same people would not want to allow the same freedom of expression in their own cultures. Very hypocritical…I am not saying you are hypocritical Medina…I am saying the attitude is hypocritical. IMO, you can’t demand things you aren’t willing to give.
Oby, yes, Saudi women, and women from several other gulf/muslim countries, cannot pass citizenship to their children.
Another proof that women are not considered fu;l;ly human in my opinion. Also, we hear a lot of the difficulties of saudi men marrying a foreign woman getting permission nowadays, forget it when it is a saudi woman wanting to marry a foreign man. Not without huge wasta.
All this crap abuot saudi men should marry more saudi women as 2nd 3rd and 4th wives to help the ”spinsters” in KSA, but forget if one of the unwanted spinsters want to marry a non-saudi man!
Saudi women are property of the Saudis and they don’t want to share!
There a re a few exceptions: disabled women and women over 40, they are permitted to marry foreign men!
France is not the only country to ban the inhumane cultural Jewish custom of the face veil: for example Tunesia, a muslim country, forbids it too.
And talking about ”freedom” and an advanced society banning the means of denigrating women and making them invisible because it is a violation of their culture and believe in freedom of choice and freedom of person seems a bit moot when the commentator comes from a country where no woman of any religion/culture is allowed to walk in public unless dressed in a black garbage bag. Where all women are harassed relentlessly by men, where the religious police harasses them for silly things, sometimes even for wearing sandals which show their sinful, lust provoking toes!
If you want to know what a Saudi woman thinks of face veils and banning them read this:
http://saudiwoman.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/the-french-burqa-ban/
@Medina
Are you busy with your studies or are you simply running out of arguments?
Of all the billions of Muslims in the world, only KSA chooses to impose severe restrictions on its women. Do Saudis wear special glasses when they read the Quran? What do they see in it that other Muslims don’t? Are you saying non-Saudi Muslims are not following the Quran? How is it that their countries get along without treating women as children?
Besides, the Quran is hardly unequivocal. If it was, how do you have four major schools of Sharia law and who knows how many minor ones? Stop pretending that things in the Quran are black and white. If they were, there would not be differences of opinion between Muslims.
My husband is Saudi with four sisters. So I feel completely confident in stating that when his (or your) sister wanted to study subject X, they at some point had to bring in permission from their guardian. And if their guardian decides, three months later, that they should no longer be studying subject X, it is in their power to return the woman home. That men in your family happen to be supportive toward their women is immaterial. The point is, your father, if he wants to, has the power to keep your sisters at home. Do you deny this?
The same applies to their jobs. Your father – if he wants to – has the power to keep your sisters from the jobs they want, because at some point they will have to produce evidence of his consent. Do you deny this?
My husband’s sister is on scholarship in the U.S. presently. If her father wants to, he can telephone the embassy and have her scholarship revoked. Do you deny this?
Furthermore, women in Saudi may have the way to divorce their husbands, but guess what? Their fathers have the way to forcibly divorce them from their husbands too, even if the couple wants to stay together. Look up recent news of Fatima and Mansour, last name escapes me.
Don’t believe me, check out this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-handrahan1996-20
“Women need their guardian’s permission for: marriage and divorce; travel, if under 45; education; employment; opening a bank account; elective surgery, particularly when sexual in nature.
Guardianship requirements are not written law. They are applied according to the customs and understanding of particular officials and institutions (hospitals, police stations, banks, etc.). ”
Isn’t that special? Not only there is no clear concept of the law, but the law essentially is whatever Abdul at the next window decides it is.
Finally, I find that many men, when defending the current status in KSA, point to the happiness of their sisters or wives. The thing is, it’s not about the individual, it’s about the system. For every happy sister, there is a miserable one. For every happy wife, there is a miserable one. That your family happens to be supportive of your women is not a proof of anything, because if men in your family choose to NOT be supportive, there is no recourse in the law for the women. Do you deny this?
And do stop to take it all personally. I’m not saying Saudis aren’t lovely people; hell, I am married to one and happily, too. What I am saying is the laws of the country privilege one class of people over another beyond the limits of reasonable, which has the effect of keeping women in the status of children forever, regardless of their age. Do you deny this?
http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article83130.ece;jsessionid=DA7E0F47FA8ADDE3AA42195A4A967083?comment=submitted&postingId=83600
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-01-01-saudi-polygamy_x.htm
@Medina -’She lived an unhappy life because of freedom’
NO, she lived an unhappy life because she made bad decisions!! Let me guess, this Aussie you were talking to is either a new Muslim or considering it? lol Either way, by blaming ‘freedom’ she is not taking personal responsibility for her mistakes. In other words, she’s still pretty immature.
‘The main issue is that you do not consider that they are Muslims and they follow Islamic teachings’
NO, the main issue that YOU are not considering is that perhaps, like Iman, they are NOT Muslims and their rights to live their lives on their own terms (their personal dignity) have been violated.
Oh and by the way. In the US at least, majority only rules as long as it does not deprive anyone of THEIR constitutional rights.
I read an article today about a young woman in Afghanitstan who ran away from the marital home because she said her in laws abused her, beat her, treated her like a servant and threatened to kill her if she did not comply. She states she ran away because no one would listen to her and the abuse was getting worse and she feared for her life.
She was hunted down by the Taliban and found…they took her to a field in the dark of night along with her husband. She pleaded with them to let her go because she was as good as dead if they returned her to the PIL house. they refused. The head guy of this particular group of Taliban gave her husband the right to administer judgement. With bright flashlisghts in her face her husband stepped forward and threw her to the ground. She was held down by several men while her husband first sliced off both of her ears. He then sliced off her nose…to the bone. She was left in the field bleeding to die. She passed out and when she came to she was being treated by American medics who found her there but it didn’t say how long she had been lying there left for dead. When she recovered they founc out the story.
This was set against the backdrop of the Afghani Taliban gaining power in Afghanistan. One man(I don’t remember his name-but if it is iimportant to anyone let me know and I will look it up so you can verify) blatently said that women should not have any power. If the Taliban gain power the 25% of women in parliament that is now mandated will be gone, women and girls will be locked behind closed doors once again no longer allowed to have an education because he concluded “it is Islamic”. Since when did the Prophet say you should beat your females, deny them any rights, keep them stupid and uneducated, allow the men to decide their fate in any and all matters. It is NOT Islamic…it is some mysoginistic man’s idea of what is Islamic. And if it IS Islamic then shame on the people who follow such a faith that denigrates and destroys the spirit of 1/2 it’s followers. But I don’t believe it is actually islamic…once again I think it is men who have taken a perfectly reasonalbe set of rules and guidelines(Qur’an) and twisted it for their benefit to keep women in line.
Needless to say the educated women of Afghanistan are very very worried that these jerks will get the upper hand if the government is not stabalized. For nine years, one woman had been educated and runs her own business all because the Taliban was not allowed to be there. She fears it will all be taken away if they come back. All under the name Islam…
If I were a Muslim I woud be so PISSED about this. I am not even Muslim and I am pissed about it.
I’m sorry to say Oby that I know of many similar accounts except it was in India and not always a Muslim family. But if the daughter-in-law did not please the in-laws, she’d have acid thrown in her face. ):
@oby,
“And I can say that I don’t think Americans would vote to make it legal. But I also don’t think the system we have for it now is effective…”
I am really happy to hear this and it gives me a good feelings. I wish that Americans vote for more strict laws against anyone involve in prostitutions.
So, why all this argument if you believe that Americans will never vote to legalize prostitutions?!!!!!!!!, you agreed with me finally after along debate. doh. So, for Morals yes we can, for protecting women dignity, yes we can , long list …. Yes we can
You shifted the subject now to Mahram instead of prostitutions hehehe. Ok although I am very busy now but I will do my best to spare some time to reply to you here.
“There is ONE very important element missing in your analysis…all of the things you listed above are allowed ONLY if the mahrem agrees to it.”
And that is what I am saying Mahram is an Islamic and Saudi women are Muslims and they will not rebel against their families or their country constitution. Plz read about Mahram in Islam. I can tell you that all Muslims ladies seek their Mahram permission when they get married. I am 100% sure about this and it is applied in all Muslim countries. For more information, read about the conditions of marriage in islam. I quote here from a webiste “The choice of a partner by a Muslim virgin girl is subject to the approval of the father or guardian under Maliki school. This is to safeguard her welfare and interests. The prophet said “the widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until she has consented and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained. The prophet did revoke the marriage of a girl who complained to him that her father had married her against her wishes”
Saudi applies Hanbali School of jurisdiction. So you can see that there is no difference between Islamic schools in reference to marriage. There is a hadeeth, No Nikah (marriage) without Wali (marham’s approval), for ladies who are married to Saudis, ask your husbands to translate this research for you. For more information
http://www.dahsha.com/viewarticle.php?id=30758
Turkey, Tunisia and some other Muslims countries do not apply Sharia law. They separate religion and government.
“Do you REALLY believe in Freedom? Would I as a non Muslim have the right to wear what I want in KSA and would you support that? Or forget non Muslim…what if I was Muslim? Could I wear anything I wanted?”
Is my personal opinion important here? I will explain that to you.
Personally speaking here, I used to believe in Personal Freedom and I debated with many Saudis male and female in person and in Saudi blogs. All my argument was strongly supported and I relied on the personal freedom in the west generally. I was strong theoretically till France banned Burqa. After that, they slammed me because the wall (personal freedom in the west) that I rely on collapsed behind me. So, here I am not representing my personal beliefs because it does not count against the majority who rules and support the constitution. So, I represent the Saudi silent majority voice.
I personally have no objection that you come to Saudi and wear whatever you like but I will make you aware of the Saudi laws before you come and it is up to you to violate the law. Personally speaking, I will submit to the law of any country that I travel to or visit. So, if the police stop you in Saudi because you violate the law, I can not offer any help except that I hire a lawyer for you. That is the thing that I can do for you. This is my personal position here. After I get you out from the police station, I will take you home and make coffee, tea and dinner for you to get relax. After that I will take you for a drive or walk and I will say to you say please do not violate the law again because I do not have enough money to hire another lawyer for you otherwise you will pay to the lawyer and you can violate the law again. If you violate the law for the second time, I can pick you up from the police station after you get out and offer you a cold lemon juice this time. The third time you violate the law, I will only pick you up after you get out from the police station. If you violate the law for the fourth time, I will ring you and say oh I am sorry that happened to you but I am busy now and I can not pick you up. To violate the law for the fifth time, I will not answer the phone. To violate the law for sixth time, you will find this message, (the number you are dialed is not in service, please ring back after you submit to the law). That is my personal position here if you are interested in. does it matter? I do not think so.
“I have a problem with this. People will be up in arms about the ban of the Burka”
People are up in arms because these countries pretend that they respect the HUMAN RIGHTS and they launch wars just to protect HUMAN RIGHTS. And they cry all the time HUMAN RIGHTS and HUMAN RIGHTS. Hypocritical attitudes, is not it? up to your honesty.
@NN,
“Are you busy with your studies or are you simply running out of arguments?”
You mean that Am I coward? Hehehe, this is the first time I have been called this name. To reply to 3 to 4 comments and every comment have 5 points to discuss. I think it is too much for a student who is busy in his study.
Wikipedia is not a reliable resource. If I cite any reference in my assignment, my supervisor will reject it completely.
Please read about Mahram in Islam and its authority. It will help to know about the points that you raised and my argument that women give up some of their rights.
Personally speaking because it seems people are interested to know it. I do not agree with that a secondary school male student is responsible for his sister who holds PhD qualification. This is ridiculous. But can I stand against the law and the constitution of the country? I do not think so because majority rules. So, I can not judge them based on my personal beliefs or culture. I disagree with a lot of things in Saudi many things but I respect their choice and their beliefs. This is my personal position but it does not count. So, I am taking the position of the majority who see things differently and it is their country and they are free to legislate any law that complies with their beliefs and traditions. If I find myself do not fit there, I will just move out but I will respect their choice.
@lynn,
“NO, she lived an unhappy life because she made bad decisions!! Let me guess, this Aussie you were talking to is either a new Muslim or considering it? lol Either way, by blaming ‘freedom’ she is not taking personal responsibility for her mistakes. In other words, she’s still pretty immature.”
She is not a Muslim at all. She belongs to outreach church something like this but she is not our point here for discussion. I just mentioned her as an example. Plz do not call her name to justify your argument x-(
“THEIR constitutional rights.”
Can you consider Saudis’ constitutional rights?
salam
Medina…
I did not switch to the Mahrem issue becasue I am afraid of the prostitute issue. I have said pretty much what I wanted to say about it but I will reitierate before moving on for clarity.
I wish there was no such thing as prostitution.
I believe that men are the drivers of the business…without them seeking it out it would be a memory.
I argued that WHERE it is legalized it benefits all involved particulary the women and keeps them safe from disease, muder, crazy men, allows them to have rights and protections under the law which is what a lot of the problem (collateral damage) is. I argued to let the WOMEN be the deciders of their own diginity. I think this is far better than hiding in a dirty alley and putting your life at risk for a few $$$$. If the world could get rid of prostitution by NOT legalizing it I would prefer that, but I think since it has been around since man has been and despite so many efforts it has not been wiped out it will never be…laws or not….all because men can’t keep it in their pants. I hold the men AT LEAST as much at fault as the women and actually more so. So I guess if I had my choice between murder, drugs, disease with illegal prosttution or controlled (legal) prostitution that wipes out a lot of the collateral damage I would take controlled prostitution. I guess I don’t have faith that strict laws can eradicate it. I am more against drugs, disease and murder than a woman chosing to trade sex for money. I see that as the lesser of two evils…call me practical. In this case I don’t make a moral judgement about it because people have been doing so for centuries with little effective change. If one wants it wiped out or at least controlled I think making it legal might actually have an effect and isn’t minimizing it and it’s damaging effects the point? But I know here we differ. Once it is legal then steps can be taken to tighten the circle bit by bit. Example, smoking is legal, but in many public areas it has been banned. The overall effect is that it has wiped out much of the secondary smoke that peole inhale. It isn’t gone but it is largely controlled.
I moved to the mahrem argument becasue i have pretty much said what I wanted to say about prostitution. Perhaps a woman needs a mahrem to get married… that i have understood, but in other countries does she need one to do everything else? Does she need a man’s approval for all other activities? She has to get a signed papaer from a man to travel or go to school or do whatever? You limited it to marriage…fine and dandy. I am talking about ALL other activities as they do in Saudi arabia. I will look into that further but I have not ever heard of it applied elsewhere as it is in KSA.
Medina…with the last part of your argument about freedom you made me smile. I don’t know why but i found it very cute…I’m glad you would be a good enough friend to stick around at least 4 or 5 times. Even if I was hard headed.LOL!
OK…I have all my life believed in freedom of expression freedom of speech, Etc. Then a very funny thing happened to me that I had never expected. After reading and blogging on these blogs for awhile and seeing the difference between “the WEST” and in this case, the Middle East, it got me to thinking. Why does it seem like freedom flows in only one direction? Why is the West expected to accept everything in the name of freedom and when it says”Hey, you know what? We can accept a lot of stuff and we are OK with most stuff but covering the face is against our society and we have to draw the line there. That is one thing we must say no to. You are free to wear your “robes”(and I DO NOT mean it disrespectfully it is just that they are called different things in different places so i say this to convey the idea of full covering of body), wear your hijab…just please don’t cover your face.” is it considered a horrible thing? The other day I went to a huge indoor waterpark. There were Muslim women there…they were wearing burkinis. Fine…wear them…I have no issues…just don’t cover your face. Muslim countries have passed laws banning niqab. Why is it that the West is not allowed to act in what it considers it’s own best interest by saying no to face covering but islamic countries where that would be most expected can do so? I think it is hypocritical to say because a country has said no to a niqab, yet yes to almost everything esle including modest dress, freedom to worship etc it is said it doesn’t offer human rights? To me that is not only insane it is a lie. I can’t run around naked…are my human rights being violated? I can’t smoke anywhere I want(if I smoked) are my human rights being violated? Every society has to draw a line somehere and it should be able to do so if it chooses. None of the people who come from the Middle East would have the same level of rights they get in the West and because the niqab is banned they say we violate human rights? That is laughable to me. Niqab is not required by the Qur’an. If that is the case it is cultural not a religious requirement. If it is cultural there is NO reason that a culture where it is not normal or accepted bans it that it should be an issue. Are women up in arms in the islamic countries that have banned it? If not why aren’t they? Shouldn’t they be even MORE upset it is being banned in country where it would be expected to be seen?
I am sure many would not agree with me…but I learned by watching the Middle East that it is OK to define your culture (whatever that is ) and say no to sm=ome things.
Carol…
‘I’m sorry to say Oby that I know of many similar accounts except it was in India and not always a Muslim family. But if the daughter-in-law did not please the in-laws, she’d have acid thrown in her face. ):’
Yes.I am well aware of that. My point was that the Taliban wants to remove all the gains women have made as I pointed out, saying that they have Sharia Law on their side because it is Islamic. I was trying to say(and perhaps not well) that all the things the Taliban say are Islamically sanctioned are NOT islamic and only the desires of mysoginistic men wrapping it in the Qur’an to make it halal. And I was saying it pisses me off that these guys are misusing the faith in that way to the detriment of half the population. They are sullying the faith and dirtying it by lying and abusing it to their own selfish means.
Hope that makes it clearer.
@oby,
I understand your argument for legalizing prostitutions and I still support any government that issue strict laws against prostitution. Maybe I am more emotional here but I hate that a lady for whatever reason is used to show herself. It is sad and makes you drop some tears. Here is a question, can you accept that someone enslave himself just to get some money? I do not think so. So, even if some ladies want to go for prostitution by their will, it should not be allowed. anyway, it is not necessary that we must agree, couples hold different opinions and still married.
“but in other countries does she need one to do everything else?”
Please read about mahram’s authority in Islam and as I told you, Sharia law is enforced in saudi and followed.
“with the last part of your argument about freedom you made me smile”
Glad to hear that at least you smiled and this is a smile back (: but do not ring me before you submit to the law, the number will be not in service heheh.
“Muslim countries have passed laws banning niqab. Why is it that the West is not allowed to act in what it considers it’s own best interest by saying no to face covering but islamic countries where that would be most expected can do so?”
Do you want me to put France and the western countries that are subject to human rights in the same category with Syria and Tunisia? (check their human rights records). If you say so, let it be, but do not say that you are for HUMAN RIGHTS because it is against Universal Declaration of Human Rights which emphasize that everyone is free ……….. etc.
“Every society has to draw a line somehere and it should be able to do so if it chooses.”
That is, this is a step back against advocating the Human rights and here you agree with Saudi that they have the right to draw a line somewhere that complies with their culture. so, are you saying to me NOW that Saudi model is a good model to follow? if yes, why all this argument?
salam
Medina…
Now, now ,now…let’s be clear…KSA doesn’t just draw a line…they obliterate the rights of all other people and are highly intolerant of anything…other faiths, other clothing, other anything practically so much so that it is in the laws. Would my Christian faith be protected there? would my rights be protected there? If I wanted to build a church could I? All those things are allowed of other people and other faiths in the West.
Let’s draw a parallel…Let’s say I wanted to visit KSA…not even live there and I promised I would wear clothing that covered every inch of my body other than my head and face, Loose flowing skirts for example. I wouldn’t wear an abaya, but I would cover almsot everything. (I am not even talking about modest western clothing by Western standards.) could I do that? No I couldn’t…I would comply with the covering rule, but even then I can’t cover the way I chose. by contrast a Muslim woman in the West is not forced to dress as we do here. She can wear practically anything she likes in terms of complete covering. Yet she is required not to cover her face…you call that lack of human rights? Please Medina…that is silly. By your standards anyone who wants should be able to run around anyway they chose…even naked. There are limits in life…I can’t run naked, I can’t smoke where I choose, I can’t urinate in public, I can’t drive as fast as I want, I can’t (except in Nevada) have sex with a hooker freely, I can’t abuse my own body with drugs legally, I can’t wear my gun in a holster on my hip (unless I am the law), I can’t have an open bottle of alcohol in my car if I am driving, I can’t do many things because they aren’t allowed. Freedom is not absolute as I believe Sarah MD pointed out earlier. The problem I see is that it is OK to say that when talking about other countries but when talking about the West all of a sudden it should be absolute. anything goes to accomadate anyone and everyone.
Should the West, becasue we believe in freedom, allow Sharia law to rule for Muslims if mulsims want it? Should we allow polygamy if the Mormans (FLDS) want it or the Muslims want it? Or should we say,”in our country we define for ourselves that polygamy is not OK and EVERYONE must live by the same set of laws, rather than parallel sets for different groups of people.These are our laws and we will judge everyone by the same set of rules.” To me that is human rights…that a Mulsim or a jew or a budhist or anyone else has the same rights and responsibilities under the law as everyone else. That if I slap someone that is of another faith or nationality or sex, I will be held accountable because their faith/nationality/sex etc is not what is important, but the fact that I slapped them is. THIS is what I call human rights. Why should someone who is wearing a niqab be allowed to wear covering but others are not allowed to wear masks, sunglasses, helmets, ski masks etc. and have to remove these things when required? Is that human rights? Why would one group be singled out to have special rights especially for a cultural thing?
To take a country that gives people 90% freedom even if they are from elsewhere and requires some things not be allowed and compare it to a country where 90% of things are not allowed is a ridiculous comparison. When the West even BEGINS to approach the level of human rights violations of the Middle East, when my country declares itself in the constitution a Christian one and discriminates against all others as Saudi does, then we’ll have something to talk about.
Until then, I think the West could take a page from the Middle East and other countries that actively seek to protect their culture and keep it the way they like and be aware of what is OK and not OK and not be afraid to define that and at least be open to discussing it without feeling embarrassed others might see them as antidemocratic or worst, racist. You see, I am not saying that ONLY a Muslim woman shouldn’t wear niqab. I don’t think any woman or any man for that matter, should be able to run around in society with their face covered 24/7. You will NEVER be able to please everyone…NEVER…but you can be as fair as possible.
You will argue that I don’t have any rights in KSA becasue it is the law. Does that make it OK to discriminate against Christians and other non Mulsims because it has been enshrined in the law? Instead of using that as a shield why not look at the law and say “this law stinks. This law denies almost everyone basic human rights of freedom of religion and freedom of speech, etc.” I personally think because the people like KSA the way it is and don’t want to change it they don’t question it. Why then is the West not allowed the same feelings? Why shouldn’t I be allowed to move as freely in your country as you are allowed to move in mine? Or conversely, why can’t the West be allowed to decide for itself what it will and will not accept? Right now Saudis have the best of both worlds. They have their culture the way they like and don’t have to change it and they have the freedom in MY culture to live the way they like. Yet, I don’t have the freedom to define my own culture without being called a human rights violator NOR do I have the right to live as I like in their culture…from where I am standing it is a pretty one sided game.
Still I ask again…WHY is there more upsetment about a niqab banned in a country that it is foreign to than in a country where it would be expected to be seen? Why aren’t women protesting it there? Do they not have the right to? It is sort of like me yelling about shorts being banned in Syria where it is most likely never going to be worn anyway than me being upset about them being banned in a country where there is a high liklihood it will affect a lot of people.
@oby,
“Now, now ,now…let’s be clear…KSA doesn’t just draw a line…they obliterate the rights of all other people and are highly intolerant of anything…”
This is good news now because it seems you agree with the Mahram’s authority in the sense that Saudi women give up some of their rights to submit to their religious duties. So, you are going to take an advanced step by giving a visit to Saudi as a Christian lady. The purpose of this visit to test whether you can practice your Christian faith in Saudi although you made partially unnecessary conclusion before you give a visit to Saudi. ): unfair.
So, “Now, now ,now…let’s be clear that you are seeking non Saudi women’s RIGHTS in KSA hehehe, but I have a question, why you were not very clear from the beginning in which all the arguments here were only for Saudi women’s rights? I wish that you were very honest with me and say, Medina, we make an issue for Saudi women rights but our core interests is to seek non Saudi women’s rights in Saudi but because we find it is easy to ask our rights by the name of Saudi women. Ok no worries; we will shift the subject to Non Saudi women’s rights in KSA.
Here is my reply, I will make it as a story and I will mention all your given rights and also your duties when you visit Saudi
Dear Oby Ahlan Wasahlan beek in Saudi.
After you land to Medina airport, you will find me waiting you in the arrival terminal holding paper showing your name. I will recognize you by your appearance, uncovered lady but wearing modest clothes. To be honest with you, I will bring my sister with me to avoid people who may stare at us. My sister and I will welcome you and I will tell her well, this is Oby who I told you about her. She may ask me, are you going to marry or what? I will say no, she is married but she is just going to make sure that her human rights are protected here and then she will go back home. She will say why she is making this visit while she is not going to live her and become a Saudi citizen then? I will say I do not know but do not ask her about this, she is our guest now. When you approach us, I will draw a big smile on my face and say Ahlan wasahlan Oby, nice to meet you after long debate heheh and please give me your luggage and my sister will accompany you to the car. I will be busy with the luggage and I hope it is not more than 20 k weight. You and my sister will go to my car and sit on the back seat. I will be silent in the car because my sister will yell at me saying do not talk. So I will be silent in the car ): , no argument hehehe. When we arrive home, you will go with my sister to the women section. You will meet my family: sisters, nieces and sisters in law. You will find them wearing jeans somehow like your clothes. So you will not be different there at home. You will be served by many things: juice, coffee, tea, perfume (Oud) food etc. I will not be able to come to the women section unless you give a note to my sister telling her that you do not mind that Medina come and sit with all of you there and you wish that. In the other section of our home, there will be male guests visiting us at that day by chance subahan allah, it is not arranged hehehe. So, after you get relaxed and been served well. I will offer you the chance to go to the male section to meet guests there and you will be wearing same clothes. You will be reluctant; I will say it is your right to join the males in that section and have a talk with them but there is no woman there. You will say No, I will not go there unless one of your sisters comes with me. All my sisters will say oh we are very sorry oby, we wish that but we can not go to unrelated males and meet them. It is haram but if you would like to meet them, why not. You can try. So, Oby will say, well I am not going there alone? Right? Do not be coward you will be with me hehehe
Then, you will feel like you want to make your Christian prayers because you give up one of your rights, my mum will take you to a good private place to sit for your prayers. So, no one is going to tell you “do not pray here”. So this right is protected.
In the next day, you will say, I want to go out; can you lend me your car? I will say, I can take you to any place you want. Just tell me which place you want to go and I will drive you there. You will get upset because you want to drive my car hehe. No problem, the important point is that you will go to the place that you want on time. When we go out, my sister will offer you one of her abaya. You will say No, I am modest in these clothes. My mum will say to her “my daughter” we know you are very modest but we do not want anyone speak any word bad about you. So, please put the abaya when you go out, you are our guest here. So, you will say ok, I give up this right too hehehe, you will wear abaya. To avoid any trouble with the religious police, my sister will go with us. We will go shopping, taking dinner, lunch, going to any place that you like. When we go back home, you will say, I want to build a church here. My sisters will say why you want to build a church while you are going back home? You will say I just want to build one here. They will say it is good to build it elsewhere because all Saudis are Muslims and no Saudi will go to church, so, what will be useless here. Then you will say, we have mosques in U.S why is it allowed in my country but not in yours. They will say, because there are Muslim American citizens. And these mosques are not built for Saudis but for their Muslim citizens. They will tell you if we have Saudi Christians we can say that Christianity is part of our culture but as you can see that all Muslim countries have churches except Saudi because they have Christian citizens. They will tell you that Saudi is like Vatican, it is the destination for all Muslims and their holy place. Why do not you just accept the fact that as there are mosques in the west there are also churches in Muslim countries except Saudi. And also you can practice your faith inside your home or in specific places provided in compounds in Saudi, why to insist on building churches. They will also mention the example of Switzerland when Swiss people voted against building Mosques. So they will say to you, dear oby, you can fully practice your faith here but in specific places and no one is going to question you or bother you. You will argue that U.S gives freedom to Muslims to practice all these rights. They will say to you and why not? They are American citizens and we are not responsible about them. They are your fellow citizens and part of your culture and when they seek their rights like wearing niqab like any other american citzen. It is their country and they should provide them with their rights that it is protected in their constitution. so, when Saudis go to America, they enjoy the freedom given to the American Muslim citizens. These given rights are not exclusvily for saudis but for americans. and when there will be a Saudi Christian minority, you are going to enjoy their rights here as a Christian lady and you can build your Church. .
During all this debate, I will be just listening and smiling heheh. Of course, Oby will feel like she hates my smiling but she can not yell at me hehehe. Then, they will serve the dinner. After dinner, we will have a good talk about life in general and tell you more about Saudi culture.
The following day, it will be your departure): . All my family will come with you to the airport and will say Goodbye oby with tears in their eyes. They will take your phone numbers and home address and promise that they will visit you one day and wish you a safe flight with Saudi Airlines. I will stop you for a minute and say I wish you a happy flight and please take this piece of paper and open it when you arrive home.
When you arrive home, you will read the piece of paper and you will read “Dear Oby, I am very pleased by your visit to Saudi and I wish that it was a good opportunity for you to understand the Saudi social and cultural context and I wish that you do not make of my family a today’s pick in media because you may lose them forever O_o.
Signature,
Medina
Salam
I just saw the extraordinarily similarity between Jannah and the Netherlands!
Everything’s green, a leisurely life where most people have a garden or can sit and enjoy one, fruit growing by the sides of the road, everybody can have sex if they want to, even those men who prefer ”pearly boys” don’t have to wait for the afterlife, nice clothes, nice weather, chilled fruit, lots to eat, water everywhere…
Music, art, enormous libraries, bookstores, good furniture, antiques, modern design, nice houses…
Freedom of choice,
I cannot describe the beauty of riding through the Netherlands on my horse, with the nice weather, the smells, the greenery, the water, etc.
You know, we already got it all.
Right here. In this life.
It is clear that Allah favors the Dutch over the Arabs big time.
The Saudis have to put in a lot of work before they can share the boons the Dutch already have in abundance. And seeing the differences in the way our respective cultures are shaping up, it seems to me that the Saudis are doing it all wrong.
Just wanted to share my brainwave.
Oby, I liked your comments, but as far as I am concerned people can run around naked too.
have you ever been to a nudist beach? trust me, it’s not a pretty sight.
Nothing is less sexy as people running around naked.
So as far as I am concerned: go ahead!
Aafke…
LOL! No I haven’t been to a nuce beach BUT a few weeks ago I want to the largest indoor water park in the USA. OMG! I thought if we ever wanted a cure for Saudi men’s lacivious thoughts the BEST cure would not be the abaya which gives too much mystery to women under the guise of modesty. They should let the Saudi men spend a day at a place like I went to and observe all the ladies in their natural glory! (cough, sputter. gasp!) I never saw such a phenomanal variety of feminine and masculine bodies. One would have to be incredibly jaded to find most of them attractive. Saggy, loose, bulgy, jiggly, overflowing, on and on and on. I jsut sat in my beach chair shaking my head and told my friend after a day of this KSA would NEVER have to worry about men having lacivious thoughts again. It would be eonugh to cure anyone of that! LOL! Even the women in burkinis looked like they had seen better days. Funny you thought what I did. Unless someone is 22 or under and never had a baby it is way better not to show it off. It is so unsexy. After that day. the mystique of the abaya come home to me so clearly.
I thoroughly enjoyed Medina’s account of a short visit to Saudi.
You’ve give me an idea, Medina for a future post…thank you!!
I read some sites(some fake sites for saudi WomensRights ) which says women are not allowed to study biology, chemistry, medicine and anti-islamists and saudi bashers jumping up and down in antagonism. But here is a story of Iman who was given scholarship to do a professional medicine degree by an anti women govt of Saudi. What outsiders know abt saudi is anti-women, no freedom. What they enjoy is the type of story/news of Iman. They never think or digest that there are million other women like sister Medina in Saudi too. WOmen are tortured in all over world but why people try to isolate Islamic country and give “Anti-women tag” to them? US is number 1 in Sexual harassment and rape, then India comes 2nd. As per United Nation’s report on Women’s day, 86 million women are missing due to certain cases like female infanticde, dowry killing, honour killing in India and other Asian countires. Recently a father in Australia and Austria raped his dauther for 24 years and made mother of 7 kids. Can this be considered norm of Australian or Austrian society? Why cant we consider these cases as individual case and try to get justice instead of generalising and start bashing Saudi? Why those same Saudi bashers fail to see women like sister Medina and her voice? Why there is no one to make documentary or publish a book on that Australian and Austrian poor daughters?
I have a converted Muslim woman in Brazil, who has finished nursing degree. Her father curses her everyday to get a job or die and shouts at her everyday after drinking. ONe day he tried to strangulate her out of anger.. She in in mental pressure. Inspite of her endless effort she is not able to get a job. If u see from these angles, there are million of women who wants freedom from such pressure and enjoy financially luxury life without even worrying her own responsiblities in her whole life and still getting all she wants.
In between I am shocked to hear the story of Iman that she enjoyed drink, illegal sex, new boy friend every year, luxury life, car, drivers but she somehow failed to get love from her dad. But, if her famly put her in cage(as Daisy said) how could she do whatever she wanted illegally? If she was mistreated, how she was provided luxurious life? How she was given best education?
Many questions remained unanswered. Seems like we are hearing only one side of story.Sometimes we take those good things we get at free of cost without meage effort as granted and fail to appreciate. And all we know is grass is greener in other side.
Is allowing open sex, drinks, get pregnant without knowing father at 15 years, without restriction and morality a sign of freedom? Off course there will be 2 answers – yes and no. WIll those women who say “NO” be considered brainwashed and dnt know meaning of freedom?
My sincere suggestion to Iman is to take life in positive way and get a peaceful life by appreaciating those things u enjoyed that millions of women dreamt of and use a measuring balance between ur sadness and happiness u achieved in devilic society.
In between, u said ur life is hard now in Canada but ur life was luxurious in Saudi. Why ur life is hard there?
In between, Saudi needs to improve its law and follow what Islam says and improve rights of women if they claim to be a sharia compliant govt.
Iman, My best wishes with u.
Fi Amani Allah
NN, on July 26, 2010 at 5:53 am Said:
I don’t get why people keep harping on her sins. What exactly did she do? Talked to boys, dated them, went to parties, danced, tried alcohol, had sex. Big deal. This happens to every single person in normal parts of the world and we all emerge unscarred and unscathed, regardless of what scary stories people tell you about it.
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Dear NN,
I agree some of the points u said but not this one. What US or west does and what US allows is not normal for all over world. Forget Suadi Arabia, whatever u said is not in India which is home for 1050 million people. Sorry to say this, many thinks that changing sexual -partners every year is considered acts of animals (who dont know who is his/her partner). Many culture think loosing verginity is cheating to his/her partner. Many has different norms, culture, morality in their own society. We cant negate all of them if they dnt suit us. In fact, Iman got all positive things and negative things too, that can happen with any man/woman in life in this big world. THis is not some alien story but can happen anywhere in world.
what about partners and sticking it thr everything don’t u get. if she moved without his permission ( why does she need it) then talking to her andmaybe getting a divorce and then remarrying would bethe way to go.
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No need for permission and discussion ?? Really? Then why a husband needs permisssion and discussion when he marries another woman when his wife leave him away?
In my opinion marriage is not like I will do whatever I want but its abt discussion and compromising each other. Both men and women needs discussion and permission to do something. If he married another women without reason, he is wrong. If she left him without acceptable reason, she is wrong.
Daisy, on July 27, 2010 at 11:02 am Said:
Sorry, I don’t accept the Islamic position that a woman’s testimony is not equal to a man’s.
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If u know its Islam which protected the rights of women and gave freedom to women since the establishement of Islam in Arab world. Its Islam which specially mentions rights of women in endless verses from Quran and Hadith. Its Islam which tried to uplift women from time to time. But u fail to see what is the truthful teaching in ur relgion abt women and also fail to uinderstand that its Hinduism which curse women and treat them like hyenas endlessly..even today in many cases. Let me remind u what HIndusim says if u dnt know:
Veda says women have no intelligence:
“Indra himself hath said, The mind of woman brooks not discipline, Her intellect hath little weight.” [Rig-Veda 8:33:17]
Veda says women are powerless and have no inheritance! They are even worse than bad man:
“Women are powerless, have no inheritance, and speak more humbly than even a bad man.” [Krsna Yajur Veda Taittiriya Samhita 6:5:8:2]
Veda says women should beget sons, not daughter:
“Almighty God, you have created this womb. Women may be born somewhere else but sons should be born from this womb” – [Atharva-Veda 6:11:3]
“O Husband protect the son to be born. Do not make him a women” [Atharva-Veda 2:3:23]
Widow burning (sati) in Veda:
“Let these unwidowed dames with noble husbands adorn themselves with fragrant balm and unguent. Decked with fair jewels, tearless, free from sorrow, first let the dames go up to where he lieth.” [Rig-Veda 10:18:7]
Women having sexual intercourse with animals … [Yajur-Veda 23:19-21]
Veda forbids friendship with women! They are like hyenas:
“With women there can be no lasting friendship: hearts of hyenas are the hearts of women.” [Rig-Veda 10:95:15]
Women’s strict veil in Veda:
“Cast down thine eyes and look not up. More closely set thy feet. Let none See what thy garment veils, for thou, a Brahman, hast become a dame.” [Rig-Veda 8:33:19]
Famous story of Ram and Seeta and AGNI PAREKSHA
In hindu scriptures, when Rawan Kidnapped Seeta (Wife of Ram) Ram was not able to find his wife, imagine so called god dont knwo where is his wife … anyways then Hanoman helped him to find seeta, and after a war when he released his wife he asked her to take AGNI PARIKSHA, which means TEST OF FIRE, she has to walk through the fire if she burnt its mean she was abuse by RAWAN and then Ram will not take her back but if she dont burn then she is pure and acceptable for RAVAN,
IS IT WHAT U CALL POSITION OF WOMEN ? IF U ARE REALLY WORREID FOR WOMEN STATUS, U SHOULD RENOUNCE UR RELGION AND USE SAME TONE U USE AGAINST ISLAM.
In Summary lets see what HInduism’s following holy books say abt women:
-Rig-Veda
-Krsna Yajur-Veda Taittiriya Samhita
-Atharva-Veda
-Vishnusmrti
-Vishnu Purana
-The Institutes of Vishnu
-Mahabharata
-Gita
-Manu-Smrti
-Bhag.Pur
-Vedarthaprakasha of Madhava Acharyya on the Taittriya Yajur-Veda
- Aditya Purana
-Laghu Ashvalayana
-Vasishta’s Padma Purana
-Taitt. Samh
in which women are insulted and disgraced like anything – women are treated like hyenas,
female infanticide,
veil,
sati burning,
slavery,
dowry,
prohibiting marrying gal from low family and disable women,
accuses only women for immorality in family,corruption and unwanted progeny,
women must never be independent,
Mental subjugation of women,
Women must worship their husband as god,
Women and Sudras were declared to be unfit for study of their own sacred texts,
widow should never think of remarriage,
offspring of remarried woman are declared to be illegitimate,
Women cannot even sleep alone,
Child marriage,
Death Penalty for guilty of infidelity and
Adultery is defined as the simple touching of clothes and even conversing with men,
Incest in Vedas
These are just some samples! OThers rightly said, u cleanse ur own house before cleansing for others..
Although I am free to breeze right by all these posts, I have read some of what has landed in my inbox and most recently have been extremely disgusted at the vile ethnnocentricy shown to one another. No one is perfect. No culture has a eutopia. You are all blaming one another’s culture and religion and I will bet those who are blaming have never lived among the locals IN THE COUNTRY THEY ARE “BLAH BLAHING” about.
STOP IT!
@Daisy,
The big questions are –
Where is this kind of parallel self-criticism in Saudi Arabia?
Where are the conscientious Saudis who want to genuinely look at the evils in Saudi Arabia and set them right?
Why should Saudi Arabia not be criticised if this atmosphere of self-criticism doesn’t exist there?
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U have put a very nice question here. But the thing is Saudi society thinks that they are improving women status there.
If Saudi doesnt fight to improve women’s condition, women’s literacy rate would not have been 71% (2003 report) while our country India has only 52% women literacy rate. U know condition of women in our country in villages, women are denied same salary as men, child gals are marreid off, one wife is share among all brothers in many places in Punjab and Haryana. So, point is in all over world women are suffering in some way or other. After all this world is male chauvinist. Russia has 10 million more women than men and a man sleeps around 30-40 women and women are often helpless and mistreated.
But, I agree with u. Saudi should fight itself and improve both conditions of women and men. I feel pity for those poor men who are denied marriage by women in Saudi
Dear Medina…
I am slow to answer your comments as I am not at home and don’t have regular acess to a computer. So please excuse.
If I gave you the impression that I was being duplicitous in all our debate my apologies go out to you. I have never tried to be dishonest with you in any of the debate…only to be as honest as I can and explain myself clearly. I respect that you have taken time to answer and I would never take the time to go into such details and explanations if my purpose was less than sincere. Life is too short to make less than sincere efforts.
Your story was lovely and it was like a mini vacation. I could actually see all of it in my mind’s eye. Thanks for that. You really conveyed a very nice feeling for me.
When I argued Saudi women’s rights I am not trying to sneak in my own rights by pretending to be for Saudi women’s rights…that is where you have me wrong. I do think rights for Saudi women is important. But as they have not experienced anything other than the mahrem system they have no idea what is out there. I guess I would feel more at ease if they had a taste of life (and it doesn’t have to be the nasty side of life…my parents raised me to adulthood and I didn’t drink, do drugs or sleep around) and making their own decisions and then said that they prefer the mahrem system. At least they have something to compare it to. We western women have all experiened the mahrem system…that is until one grows up and can take decisions for themselves. I don’t know too many women who would like to go back under the protection of “daddy’s” wing. We know daddy is there if we need him, but as adult women we are not forced to live by his rules. That doesn’t mean that our family members can’t talk with us and and reason with us and argue with our decisions. They certainly can. Fathers most definately can talk to daughters about things, advise them etc. But once a woman reaches the age of adulthood she may take counsel but her decisions are ultimately up to her. That is what is missing in Saudi women’s lives…her decisions are not her own and she is not able to pursue things without the mahrems permission.
But you didn’t answer my questions except to explain and to agree in a round about way that Saudi doesn’t give the same rights to non Muslims as it does muslims. I liked the parallel between the vatican and Mecca…but even in Italy there are mosques and many muslims who have a right to live freely and practice freely. Maybe not in the vatican itself but even then ithe vatican is open to ALL not only Christians, unlike Mecca which is off limits to all except Muslims. So that is not a fair explanation…If we wanted to compare apples to apples, then we would compare the Kaaba or Mecca to the Vatican. The rest of the ocuntry would be open to all faiths as is Italy.
Again freedom is not absolute…should we have sharia or polygamy to accomadate Muslims who want it? Should we allow Muslims polygamy or sharia law because it is allowed in their faith? Or should they realize that they live in a secular country and must live by the rules of the country that they are in? we don’t run our country according to faith. In order to be fair to everyone of every faith we can’t favor one over the other. The rules apply to all and put everyone in the eyes of the law on an equal footing. Muslims are no greater than Christians who are no greater than Jews who are no greater than Hindus and on and on? If I am to visit or live in KSA and I am expected to live by the laws of the land then would it not be fair to say Muslims who are here must live by the laws of the West? Wouldn’t you say that is fair? If the laws in Saudi say that everyone must be Muslim why can’t the West decide for themselves how they define themselves as Saudi has done? Even if I lived in KSA, and no one wanted to bother me in prayer (which I would totally appreciate) I STILL don’t have the same freedoms that a Muslim would have here…and moreover the fact that I could pray quietly in Saudi is not protected under the law…it is due to someone’s good graces. Here Muslims are protected by law. All I am saying is that if Saudi and other countries can define themselves and put limits on what is OK or not, the West has the same right to do so. But what I find happens often is that the West is so busy being on the defensive trying to prove to everyone that they are fair and not racist and not discriminatory that they don’t stop, stand with their feet firmly planted and say “hey wait a minute…Let’s look at what we DO offer in the way of freedoms rather than the tiny bit that people are yelling about that they aren’t getting and try to strike a balance between who we are, preserving our culture and accomadating people as best as we can. In my book if you get a goodly portion of what you want you are darn lucky. Even families and marriages are not that democratic often.
Switzerland…the issue was not mosques…the issue was minarets which are decoration on top of the mosques, similar to the place where a church bell is kept on a Christian church. They didn’t deny them a house of worship…they said no to the decoration on the top of the mosque…I have not so much of an issue with that because the house of worship was not affected. The mosque near my house doesn’t have a minaret…but some churches don’t have spires either. To me it would have been a bigger issue if they had said no to the mosque itself. Again…they didn’t take away muslims rights to worship. They said no to a form of decoration…
In my neighborhood I can’t do anything I want with my house. I can’t paint the front of my door purple if I want. Why? Because we live in a community where there are certain restrictions on how a house may look. For instance…silly as it sounds all the mailboxes have to look the same. Weird right? But that is one of the rules of the “Homeowner’s Association”. If I don’t like it and I want to paint my door purple I am free to seel my house and leave…no one will stop me. But by living there I agree to all the rules that are required. Simple. Sort of like KSA, right? And sort of like the West too. There are rules…if people don’t like them then they are free to not live here.
MD Azad…
I don’t know why the whole world thinks the USA is #1 in rapers…it isn’t. Here is a sampling…India is not #2…it is way down the list at #56.
# 1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
# 2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
# 3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
# 4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
# 5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
# 56 India: 0.0143187 per 1,000 people
“Russia has 10 million more women than men and a man sleeps around 30-40 women and women are often helpless and mistreated. ”
I”d love to know the source of these revelations. Did you speak to every Russian man? Have you read reliable statistics on the number of their sexual partners?
In what way are women mistreated and helpless? Where is this information coming from? Are they kept from education of their choice, leaving their homes, driving, voting, opening bank accounts, entering professional lives, marrying men of their choice?
Lay off the Kool-aid, dude.
“Many culture think loosing verginity is cheating to his/her partner. ”
I’d love for you to explain to me this feat of logic how losing your virginity can be cheating toward someone you haven’t even met yet.
Listen everyone, people in Saudi are doing just fine. It is the sinister plans of godless people who want to brainwash the women in KSA to make them think that they are wronged. It is the same kind of brainwashing that they have been doing for years and years and it will not stop. These evil fake sites are there for the same purpose.
Those of us who are sincere and true to God, please if you want to know the reality, do not go to the media, go to your God. Ignore all those who say that women have no rights. It is all a mask and a game that they play to pull you into their evil trap. It is part of the big plan. Many women are caught in this trap and led away from Islam. Don’t you see that this is what they want!
Be careful of what you read and see. Nothing is what it appears to be.
NN, on August 8, 2010 at 6:48 am Said:
“Russia has 10 million more women than men and a man sleeps around 30-40 women and women are often helpless and mistreated. ”
I”d love to know the source of these revelations. Did you speak to every Russian man? Have you read reliable statistics on the number of their sexual partners?
In what way are women mistreated and helpless? Where is this information coming from? Are they kept from education of their choice, leaving their homes, driving, voting, opening bank accounts, entering professional lives, marrying men of their choice?
Lay off the Kool-aid, dude.
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@NN,
I go this site from one of my Russian female friend.
Short extractions from the site:
Family life:
Buying an apartment is unachievable for the majority of people because of small salaries. One of my friends, 38-year old single woman, still lives with her mom in one-room apartment, and they have zero chances to get a better one unless she gets married and leaves. (Which is also doubtful as there are 10 million (!) more women of marriageable age in Russia than men and all men who wanted to get married are normally married by the time.)
Russians get married early, at the age 18-22. Because they don’t really care much about making a career (see Myth 2 for details), they don’t wait until they are independent. Young couples usually stay with wife’s or husband’s parents during the first years of marriage.
Being single in Russia puts a label on a woman. If she is over 25 and still single, it means that something’s wrong with her. Not any amount of money she earns or her career successes can give her high social status, if she is not married. From the other hand, it’s not such a fortune for a woman – to be married in Russia. A decent woman is supposed to stay at home, while her husband is allowed to spend time with friends in cafes, restaurants and discos. All housework is also women’s responsibility, and it’s quite a lot if taking in consideration the lack of home electronic utilities. About 80% of Russian families do not have even an automatic washing machine and microwave. Russian society is pretty male dominating.
Less see more fruit produced from unmarried women
Infidelity is common in Russia. Women outnumber men, and a guy can easily find somebody for affairs. Sleeping around is a kind of honor for a man. Women are not supposed to do it to be respectable, but still, guys find partners, so I believe that the girls just keep quiet.
One of my male friends of 38 years, who has probably about 30 new partners every year, aged from 18 to 40 (he is not married, at least!), well-traveled and well-educated guy, a former national level sportsman, told me once in a frank impulse: “The only good thing about Russia is girls. Beautiful, gentle and accessible”.
For the women agreeing on casual sex is the way of attracting a partner that she hopes may later offer her commitment.
Single girls all desperately want to find a “worthy” man and get married. Marriage for Russian women is the same type of thing as career for western women – it gives them a respectable social status.
http://www.womenrussia.com/russians.htm#Family%20life
NOte: THis site is from a Russian women.
@Sarah MD,
Dear sis, u come to the point. We have in past have seen fake ex-muslim who are used by muslim haters to spread lies and hatred
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/walid-zafar/ex-muslim-evangelical-exp_b_582225.html
“Many culture think loosing verginity is cheating to his/her partner. ”
I’d love for you to explain to me this feat of logic how losing your virginity can be cheating toward someone you haven’t even met yet.
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When I say loosing virginity – I mean sleeping with illegal partner.
No logic at all but as per those who believe in teaching of Jesus (PBUH), Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), Islam, Unmodified christianity, Judaism, conservative culture like India. No need for any logic but its culture of people of the place. ITs culture people of the place respects.
@NN,
Dear, u know the problem? Muslims are more christians than most of the Christians like u if we go by the definition “Chrisitians means obeying teaching of Jesus (PBUH)” and so its normal for girls to taste different boy friend every years and no issue on it. Its definition of freedom for modern christian like u. Maximum Muslims challenge that they are more christians than many born christians. Reason?? See here. No problem Muslims are conservative, closed mind becoz we follow teachings of God and dotn support those who go agaisnt teaching’s of God.
See who are more christians:
@NN,
Idnt know which statistics u found but I found this one:
* In the United States, 1.3 women are raped every minute. That results in 78 rapes each hour, 1872 rapes each day, 56160 rapes ech month and 683,280 rapes each year.
* 1 out of every 3 American women will be sexually assulted in her lifetime.
* The United States has the world’s highest rape rate of the countries that publish such statistics. It’s 4 times higher than Germany, 13 times higher than England, and 20 times higher than Japan.
* 1 in 7 women will be raped by her husband.
* 83% of rape cases are ages 24 or under.
* 1 in 4 college women have either been raped or suffered attempted rape.
* 1 in 12 males students surveyed had commited acts that met the legal definition of rape. Furthermore, 84% of the men who had commited such acts said what they had done was definitely not rape.
* 75% of male students and 55% of female students involved in acquintance rape had been drinking or using drugs.
* Only 16% of rapes are ever reported to the police.
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ad361896/anne/cease/rapestatisticspage.html
Above Russian women’s painful sitaution is one of those situation where Islam allows polygamy with strict terms n conditions not for personal whims.
Sorry above Rape stats is for Oby
So, I say that gradual change is a very wise choice for reforms. But still there is a very important question that people should ponder about. Why Saudis should change their beliefs and their lifestyles?
—————————————————————————-
@Medina,
Saudis need to change certain laws which are nothing to do with Islam when Saudi claim to follow Islamic Shariah. Laws like women are not allowed to drive, a saudian need to take approval to marry a foreigner, a man can marry more than one even when one wife condition is mentioned in nikah contract, unnessary burden on poor men by asking heavy dowry/Mahar when Islam asks to make marraige simple and affordable. These laws are culture nothing to do with Islam. These are some of the reason for imbalance and suffering in society.
@MD Shah (jeez, all the fake MDs are coming out the woodwork)
“so its normal for girls to taste different boy friend every years and no issue on it. Its definition of freedom for modern christian like u. ”
Did I ever say I was Christian? Modern or otherwise?
Regarding the website, if you take as gospel truth thing written at the website produced by a woman offering Russian brides to foreign men, whose livelihood depends on being able to paint a pathetic picture of womanhood in Russia – then the only thing I can offer you is my condolences – on account of your inability to distinguish good information from crap.
“One of my male friends of 38 years, who has probably about 30 new partners every year, aged from 18 to 40 (he is not married, at least!), well-traveled and well-educated guy, a former national level sportsman, told me once in a frank impulse..”
Let me see if I got it right…you read a website, written by one woman, who quotes her one friend, and from that you extrapolate that this is what commonly happens to every single person…Big sigh…really, lack of ability to think critically is more dangerous than untreated shingles…one goes away, the other is forever.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See I have a lots friends from Russia. talk to them every other day. u need to analyse the news and from other sites too instead of judging as crap. U can verify statistics given by her from other sites too. Inbetween, wat is the point of discussing abt Russia, I just said such circumstances happens place to place n culture to culture.
Here you go again Md Azad Ali Shah, what exactly does Russia and the plight of women there or ANYWHERE else in the world have to do with Iman and HER experience in Saudi Arabia and Canada?
Do you really think that Iman is the only girl or woman in Saudi Arabia or any other strict, forced Muslim society with these experiences and feelings? Bottom line, the program does not work for everyone no matter how much you want to present it as ideal.
Do yourself a favor and lay off the propaganda sites and educate yourself on things like sociology, psychology, anthropology and human nature. Islam does NOT need you to defend it. Really, trust me, you just make Muslims look desperate and ignorant with some of these ‘defenses’ you come up with. Perhaps you are just a troll trying to make Muslims look ignorant?
“It is the sinister plans of godless people who want to brainwash the women in KSA to make them think that they are wronged.’
Brilliant!!!
Thank you Sarah MD.Up until now I thought all of these ladies were just expressing their opinions. Now I am much smarter and suddenly realized they are part of the huge Western conspiracy to brainwash all the women in Saudi.
Those Westerners are just good at this type of stuff. The Saudi’s have spent over 80 years educating their women on how to be obedient. All of that work is for nothing. They come at you with their media channels and these fake caring women on blogs. All the sudden the women in Saudi will feel the urge to walk around naked and listen to Satan.
Thanks to you and the MD team, we have a chance to recognize this evil.
@Lynn, Kindly do a fovour by trying to understand by reading the series of posts instead of segregating particular post. I didnt mention Russia only, I mentioned list of issues in all over world but NN asked proof for Russia then I replied.
Also kindly do a favour by finding out millions of women like Iman in all over world instead of giving speacial attention to her only. I really want to know who are ignorant – those who curse whole nation based on one induvidual’s family issues while there are million other such indivisuals in every part of world.
Which propaganda site u are talking? Let’s debate with facts. I will not run. If u say any site given by me is wrong, then I will give more. U have to give me reason why some blog of people like Iman is reality and why the site given by me is propaganda. KIndly stop accepting those only that suit ur needs. Its all about reliablity right? What is the relaiblity that there was such Iman in Saudi Arabia? I am saying from reliability point of view..If u look back, I didnt say that Saudi law is an ideal one but I said it needs to be improved. Please do a favour by reading completely.
@MoQ,
U should see real evil and check to what extent anti-islamists can stoop low just becoz of their hatred. And no 1 open mouth agaisnt such filthy activities of gutter leeches. But when there is slight opportunity to bash Islam or some Muslim country all jump up n down in antagonism.
What kind of double standard is it!!!
We know many such ex-Muslim in this world.
Ergun Caner, Ex-Muslim Evangelical Leader, Exposed As Fake:
Ergun Caner, Ex-Muslim Evangelical Leader, Exposed As Fake
http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=Ergun+Caner%2C+Ex-Muslim+Evangelical+Leader%2C+Exposed+As+Fake&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
@ the Md team leader,
Thank you for the insightful links. It seems like this Ergun dude is the leader of this conspiracy and perhaps he might be Iblees taking human form. Keep up the good work of opening minds. We arevery lucky the world has people like you, who conduct empirical analysis to help those of us who have the tendency to be swayed easily. I feel like a heavy shield is lifted now and I can see the world clearly.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Kindly come and debate in logical way with proof instead of talking in roundabout way. When I talk I give proof but not blabber. Have guts to condemn all sort of injustice instead of using anti-islamic lenses. Accept both good and bad things instead of bashing some group of people/place
@MD Team leader,
We are mere mortals with very limited intellectual capacity. How can we debate against such sound analysis and comprehensive knowledge of the world. When we are dealing with someone like you who had provided us with great wisdom, the only thing to do is read your world class analysis and hope some of the greatness will rub off on us. I am looking forward for you to enlighten us more in your next comment.
“See I have a lots friends from Russia. talk to them every other day. u need to analyse the news and from other sites too instead of judging as crap. ”
See, I actually AM Russian and grew up there so I don’t need to analyze the “news” written by people with special interest to recognize crap.
“U can verify statistics given by her from other sites too. ”
What statistics? Mating habits of Russian males? Number of microwaves per household in Russia? Who in the world collects these statistics, pray tell??
“Inbetween, wat is the point of discussing abt Russia, I just said such circumstances happens place to place n culture to culture.”
The point of that was that you provided crap information in support of your crap argument, into which you just had to bring my country, so I took it upon myself to point that out to other readers, namely, that the information you provided is crap. Should I have let it slide? Just like when you claimed that millions of people convert to Islam every day, and when I called you out on that crap claim, you said, forget millions, what about this one person?
And I see you have not apologized or admitted your mistake after your remark of “modern christians like u.”
@md…
It seems that you completely missed my last link so as a courtesy I will repost it.
But first, did you read the link you posted? do you realize it was put up by a local organization from one college in a town not far from where I live. That means it was written by fairly uninformed 18 year olds! Also, since you are really want to use that link do you realize that they provide support for gay and lesbian people who have been raped as well transgender people? You might want to read the link a little more closely. It was published by what amounts to a college club.
Now here is my link once again which has been culled from statistics around the world using several sources…they are lidted if you look. As a friend pointed out to me the results depend on rapes being actually reported. So logically those countries where such records are not kept such as KSA are very low. It is skewed unfairly toward the countries that don’t keep rcords so that they come out looking great when in reality their records are simply not known. In other coutries where records are kept I think that the results are more reliable.
Here is the link. It may not be perfect but I am sure it is far more reliable than the one you show.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
Here is what Harvard Business School had to say about it.
“NationMaster.com allows users to build charts that measure and compare countries on a wide range of information, everything from “Most Taxed” to “Cotton Production.” In fact, there are some 4,350 stats available for exploration, culled from sources including the CIA World Factbook, the World Health Organization, UNESCO, the United Nations and the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development. ”
You can read the whole review below.
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/4347.html
Oby,
I agree with that perspective that some countries are more open in maintaining – and distributing statistics freely – of rape, violence, abuse or any other phenomenon, while some simply do not have statistics or don’t release them to the international agencies.
Saudi Arabia is high on the list of such countries which try to conceal their statistics on human rights violations.
Moq,
MD Team leader hasn’t understood so far despite being told that this is a blog about Saudi Arabia, not about the whole world.
That’s why we are discussing Saudi Arabia and by extension Islam in other countries as a comparison.
A discussion about the whole world is beyond the scope of this blog.
He also hasn’t understood that Madina is a man, not a woman – I don’t imagine the women of KSA to be so insensitive towards their own kind as Madina’s and MD people’s comments show.
Of course, there are some brainwashed women for whom we have to make allowance.
And we have to take the verdict of the MD team members that there is nothing wrong with the women of Saudi Arabia and ignore the testimony of several Saudi women – not just Iman – who have said the opposite on this very blog.
“Thank you Sarah MD.Up until now I thought all of these ladies were just expressing their opinions. Now I am much smarter and suddenly realized they are part of the huge Western conspiracy to brainwash all the women in Saudi”
I am glad to educate you and make you and all like you aware of this big conspiracy managed by lucifer himself. And you, fellow commentator, are the victim and do not realise it. Hope one day you will wake up.
“Those Westerners are just good at this type of stuff.”
Yes exactly; but it not all westerners – just those zionists controlled minds.
“They come at you with their media channels and these fake caring women on blogs. ”
Right again. They control the mind with their false media material and only fools do not realise this.
“All the sudden the women in Saudi will feel the urge to walk around naked and listen to Satan. ”
It is because those plots are working on weak souls.
“Thanks to you and the MD team, we have a chance to recognize this evil”.
The Md team are more than happy to educate you. Stay tuned – you might learn more.
In the meantime, just look around you and observe how they play the game. Have a nice day.
ROTFL, Sarah Md, that was real good. Keep entertaining us please.
I knew at one point you will make the amazing discovery of the Zionist conspiracy. Those Zionist control every thing, don’t they?
@Daisy, He is just a troll. No need to take him seriously. Just enjoy the comedy show
You get the best teachers on this blog!
“Those Zionist control every thing, don’t they?”
Glad you realise this. Now go to the next lesson …
@Sarah MD,
So in summary we learned:
-Satan is at work here creating this conspiracy against Saudi women
- The brainwashed women and godless commentators here want to brainwash the Saudi women to take them away from god
- All of these people are brain washed by the Western media which is controlled by the Zionist
- The Zionists control everything
Did I miss anything?
Oh yes, I forgot, you are a great teacher, not just the average conspiracy theory loony
I’ve just returned from Wacken Open Air, so straight from the pits of hell and I can tell you Satan has never heard of any ”Zionist Conspiracy”…
Maybe a lower demon spewed that conspiracy fantasy to have a good laugh at gullible humans who actually swallow that nonsense…
How deluded you are. What you see is only a delusion. But when you see the things going on and if you really take the time to learn, you will understand what I mean.
I would not say you are one of the best of students. Your power of concentration is shaky and I say that because you tend to assume things.
“-Satan is at work here creating this conspiracy against Saudi women”
Yes and he has been at work for a long time but the point here is not against Saudi women only but everyone who is weak enough to fall into his evil plans.
“- The brainwashed women and godless commentators here want to brainwash the Saudi women to take them away from god”
Here you take the liberty to assume things. The brainwashed are not just women but mostly anyone who allows to be brainwashed. And I was not talking about the commentators here when I was talking about being “godless” but I would not be so far off the point to include those here too.
“- All of these people are brain washed by the Western media which is controlled by the Zionist”
You got this one right. They are feeding people with disinformation.
- The Zionists control everything
Right again.
“Oh yes, I forgot, you are a great teacher”
Thanks … and keep a watch out. They are out to catch you if they haven’t already. (Why do I get the feeling that they already did). Be safe.
‘MoQ, thank you for that brilliant summary.
SaraMD, I always love a good conspiracy theory, however, the ”Zionists Control Everything”-one always bores me to death.
It’s just a really boring, dull, repetitive silly conspiracy theory, and whoever thought it up had no sense of fun, no inspiration and no imagination.
You also make it also really repetitive boring and dull.
Why do you go for this silly boring nonsense?
Does it strike a chord with your personality?
Sorry if I am boring you, Aafke, as that is not my intent. My only reason for bringing this “theory” is to make people aware of what they are getting trapped into.
Yes the zionist “theory” is as old as the earth itself and that is why it is even more dangerous. They have at it for a very long time. It is not a theory, it is a fact but did you think WHY? and who powers zionists? If you knew abut it, why don’t you do something about it.
Think about it for a second and your boredom will be snuffed out to be replaced with renewed views.
Bored now….
Heee, You want a much better and far more funny conspiracy?
Do you know that the planet is actually being governed not by humans but by reptilians who pose as humans? they are much older than the Zionists, they’ve been around since the time of the Sumerians!!!!!
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1860871_1860876_1861029,00.html
Bush was an alien reptile of course, so was his father.
According to princess Di the whole English royal family are reptilians, and bet that the whole Saudi royal famuly, and the clerical elite are all reptilians.
That would explain a lot!
http://www.2spare.com/item_43133.aspx
The last time I heard about this Zionist conspiracy theory was when the godless communists were talking about it. They still do, with full force – as a move to highlight the evils of the capitalist US.
How is it that the godless communists and the god-fearing pious Islamists of Saudi Arabia have joined hands together in propounding this theory?
After getting all the petro Dollars from the Zionist supporter US, how come the piuos Islamists of Saudi Arabia ahve turned against the US?
Is this another dimension of the Zionist brainwashing conspiracy, or is it another brainwashing conspiracy of Saudi Arabia?
Daisy, don’t feed the trolls!
SaraMD, just look at my last link, even in a top-10 of wacky conspiracy theories the Zionists aren’t even mentioned, it is that boring and unimportant a conspiracy theory!
While the ”Reptilians rule the Earth” conspiracy is #1!
I really think you should switch conspiracy theories!
Ah, so you are a bit aware of the repltiles. That is good. I didn’t want to scare you. So do some more homework and you will come to know the truth.
Daisy, it is not “Zionist supporter US” from the “US supporter Zionist”. As usual you got it the other way round. It is easy to fall into the net that the evils have been weaving but difficult, if ever, to get out. Your idols are all but part of the overall evil plot. Take a close look at one of them the next time you need to talk to them. Worshipping human private parts cannot be coming from stable minds. Funnily those idols do not have reptile heads but heads of monkeys and elephants. Zionist plots? Powered by …?
“even in a top-10 of wacky conspiracy theories the Zionists aren’t even mentioned”
It is not mentioned because it is NOT theory. Do you get it now?
I was made to believe that the Black Stone at the Kaaba was a symbol of the female genital organ of one of the 3 main goddesses in the pre-Islamic Arabia and therefore, a fertility symbol – that’s another popular theory with perhaps some grain of historical truth in it.
I have nothing against someone imagining the divine in any form that is convenient or suitable for that person.
It’s not for the others to judge how a group of people imagine a divine form. It’s none of their business.
SaraMD, I get it, I know all about conspiracies, that’s why I know the Protocols of Zion are a hoax and proved to be so ages ago. While the ”Reptilians rule the Earth” has not yet been debunked.
Seriously, if you switch to the Reptilian theory you will be at home with a much larger group of nutters (Zionists are only popular amongst middle eastern/muslim simpletons) and your arguments will carry more weight because you could use the ”Appeal to popularity” fallacy.
Daisy should check the Aafke link to see if her theory is listed. It seems she is highly uneducated regarding theories and reading the wrongs books (as was proved before) and is deluded. Living in some fantasy world is not going to help you, Daisy. Get back to reality.
It is not a major concern if repltiles were ruling the earth of not but what you fail to see is that who were thoe reptiles and why they are here now but as aliens? You are free to debunk any theory as you please, but facts are not theories. You know then as zionists but you don’t know in what names they can come as.
Your fallacy thories bores me to tears … really!
Fallacies are not theory, ”fallacy” is a word.
fal·la·cy
1. A false notion.
2. A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference.
3. Incorrectness of reasoning or belief; erroneous.
4. The quality of being deceptive.
LMAO,
This is a fascinating insight on how the mind of a loon works. Sarah Md, please keep writing those incoherent comments.I am having a blast reading them.
They bore me nonetheless.
The greatest global deception is showing its ugly head but very few see it.
Happy to feed the unsuspecting mind, MoQ, or perhaps should I assume that you know what I am talking about, hmmm?
Truth is really stranger than fiction.
SaraMD, I am amazed fallacies bore you because you use them constantly and consistently.
I would have thought you had made a special study of them
@Sarah Md,
I am just a beginner in this entire conspiracy thing. I have to learn Aafke’s lizard man theory first, before I can deal with your advanced Zionist theory. It is all difficult for me. Please be patient and educate us more.
Aafke, I use what needs to be used but for you, whatever that does not agree with your mind, it is fallacy, and that is why it bores me. I hear you use it all the time with different comments. You tend not to open your mind wide enough to at least underestand what others have to say. You assume that only you can be right (which you can be sometimes).
MoQ, stick around and you will learn alot but remember these are facts and not theories. That is your first basic lesson. Let yourself free and enter the world of reptile beings. Take notes.
Logic the study of reasoning.
If you want to discuss topics, and want to bring your point across, you should not use fallacies.
A fallacy is a is a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning in argumentation.
You cannot prove anything, nor present yourself as a worthy intelligent partner in these discussions if you keep on using fallacies to ”prove” your points.
Fallacies are well defined, there are plenty of studies on them. I suggest you read this page before you make more mistakes here.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
And no, that is not a Zionist site…
@Sarah Md,
When I read your comments, I take notes with the diligence of a field zoologist studying the behavior of a strange species. You are a fascinating specimen
And what makes you think that everyone else here have no proof and its only you who can do that? Where are all your proofs? What makes you think that othese are writing incorrect reasoning in their arguments? If you are fair in your thinking, why do you assume that only your side or argument is the right one and others are all “fallacy”. This is the trap that your are made to believe in. It is part of the conspiracy. Why don’t you get out of the box and see beyond your views. It will not hurt to do that, would it?
Sarah MD,
This is not a “fallacy theory,” but archaeological research. If you are interested, please take the trouble of going through the pre-Islamic Archaeology of the region.
Besides, a theory is not necessarily something that can’t be scientifically established. Lots of theories are scientifically established through research. The kinds such as the Zionist conspiracy and the reptiles ruling the planet are fallacies.
I really wonder what kind of education system Saudi Arabia has to produce people with such warped minds who can’t use rationality at all.
Every comment you (and others, hence the regular allusion to logical fallacies) make uses logical fallacies. The concept of proof does not come into it.
I don’t need to prove, you do it.
You cannot put together one logical argument.
You cannot argue one simple thing without using misconceptions, incorrect reasoning and false claims.
I cannot say this anymore simply.
You really do not seem able to understand logic. Maybe you should take a break, have a cup of tea, and return later to this discussion when you think in a cool and logical manner.
@Aafke,
Trying to explain what logic is to Sarah Md is a lost cause.It is a field of philosophy that allows people to construct good argument based on reasoning. Reasoned arguments should not have fallacies.
She is not even in the same neighborhood of grasping these concepts. Her last comment is good proof of that.Do not waste your time. Her education is severely lacking. This is like trying to explain string theory to someone who flunked a freshman physics course.
I can see how all of you take one side. It is all so clear and typical. By the way Aafke, you are not bringing any clear proves either. You only show how you are good at pointing fingers. I am not following your “fallacy” theories or whatever.
Daisy, I did not say what you said was fallacy. Unlike others here, I open to see your point. Can you provdie some proves though?
MoQ, it seems it is you who is lacking severly in intelligence. As your hobby is “bird- watching”, I cannot blame you. It is indeed better you do not waste your time here and catch up on your knowledge on conspiracy of the repltiles and zionists.
The fact that all of you take one side is clear show that you prefer to ignore what the others have to say as long as it does not agree with their views. It is hypocrisy. They will blame intellegence and schooling. It shows weakness.
It is upto you what you want to believe and it does not concern me. This topic is obviously above your intelligence levels so I will not talk on it further unless you are open to have open fair talk.
When someone talks about reptile beings, it all makes sense to your brain cells as the person concerned is from your own side but when I talk about Zionists, it suddenly takes on another form of argument something that is unitelligent, something out of this world. What does this show? It shows that the way one reacts depends on who the person is. Its leaning towards or preferring the side of the person they side with even tho they will make loony statements.
But its all familiar to me and I am not least bit surprised.
@Sarah Md,
We blame your education, because Logic is a field of study. The fact that Aafke tried to explain it to you multiple times and even gave you a link to read up on what fallacies are. You obviously did not comprehend what she told you from your answers. Hence your education is lacking. This is not a fallacious argument as it is proven with evidence. We all saw it unfold in your comments.
Regarding, people not agreeing with you and taking one side, could that be because you are not saying anything that can be taken seriously. For example, you brought up the Zionist argument. That is a large claim, yet you have not provide 1 shred of evidence to support your point. All what you did is claim that you see things others don’t. Repeating a claim over and over does not make it factual. It is just insane.
You always find yourself in the side of arguing against others.It happens almost consistently. May be it is time for you to look inward and evaluate your positions. Just perhaps you are wrong in understanding the world.
No one takes you seriously anymore, since you are prone to believe in conspiracies and throw them around like they are the truth. Sarcasm is the only way to deal with such loony ideas.
@AB, thanks,
Dear oby,
Thanks for the nice words although you did not drive my car hehehe. I thought you are going to backbite like an American lady who backbite her Saudi hosts but it seems that unlike her, you do not want to lose your hosts O_o. which is something appreciated. We were about to come to a solid agreement and the picture was more clear because we shortened the argument to the basic valid points. Unfortunately, the argument expanded again to include various points.
Here is my reply to the points that you raised in your second comment because the first comment went for advocating nudity maybe for ganging or lack of internet access or for other reasons, but I will accept your excuse for the delay in your reply although I thought that it was triggered by carol hehehe O_o
1- You said in your previous comment, let be celar clear clear etc…, hehehe. So this gave me the impression that there is something wrong in your argument. Anyway, I consider your comments are candid and your argument is honest even though life is too short, so people are too impatient and demanding for claiming rights. O_o
2- You want to tell Saudi women that they do not experience life other than mahram system and you want them to taste that the life that you are living.
My question, why did not you consider their reply when they say we can not go to male section because it is Haram? Do you mean that you are encouraging them to change their Islamic beliefs in terms of Maram? So, we can consider Sara’s position when she said that it is conspiracy against Saudi women and discredit all her opponents?
3- You want to build your culture in Saudi although you and your culture are not part of Saudi Arabia even though your religious rights are protected under the Saudi law which states that your home is your kingdom.
My question, how to claim that you have the right to establish your culture in Saudi which is not part of Saudi culture while you support ban of Niqab and the Swiss people when they voted against building minarets in Switzerland although Islam is part of Swiss culture? Do not you think that you have double standards here? It is very obvious that Swiss people voted against the Islamic culture and their vote is interpreted as an objection against Islamic culture to be part of their local culture. The same thing goes in Netherland and you can review the leader’s comments of the public party there, Fitna.
4- You showed a tendency that western countries should not give their citizenships to Muslims just because Saudi does not give citizenship to non Muslims and you ignored the fact that all Muslim countries have Christian minorities and there are churches and no Muslim stood against them and revoke their rights to build their churches. Do not you think that you showed an extreme position here and also double standards? What about the Americans who converted to Islam like abu sinan or carol, according to what you are saying abu sinan should be deported to Saudi just because he became a Muslim? Do you feel regret that there are Muslim Americans? Interesting really it is that someone like you who look for protecting the HUMAN RIGHTS of others violates your fellow American Muslims’ rights by showing such attitudes.
5- I find it also interesting that you link all Muslims to Saudi and coin them Saudis in your argument. We are Saudi Arabians but we are not all the Muslims, we are a small segment of Muslims populations, only 19 millions according to the last population statistics. Muslims are one billion and 400 millions people. That is, Saudis represent only 1.3% of the whole Muslim population. So, we are only responsible about Saudis, 1.3%. Your American Muslim fellows are not a Saudi issue and there is the American constitution that give the rights to every American otherwise you are speaking against the American constitution?
In conclusion, I made that short vacation for you to make you live the Saudi culture and to understand how life is beautiful behind the scene and to give you the cultural impression that make you realize that sometimes you give up your rights voluntarily just to be indifferent and to have a peaceful life. That is the main point of that short vacation although if your husband did not call you to go back home, we can make it a long vacation hehehe but your husband’s call made it a short visit. Blame him hehehe.
@MD Azad, you expanded the argument sir.
Salam
MoQ,
I talked about zionist theroy not so as to bring a long debate on it or to prove it, because everyone is already aware of it and you can google all the info on the net. I do not have to prove anything on it. It is a well known fact. Regarding the fallacies link, I do not need to be educated on it as I know that what ever anyone says, the firs tthink she will do is the fallacy treatment and it is just sooo boring. I did not read the links that she gave as I did not want to be bored more. You do not have to read my comments if it does not make sense to you. You can do whatever it is you like to do. Do not argue with me just because I do not agree with you.
I happen to believe in what I am saying and if you don’t then its up to you. Did you ask for 1 shred of proof of reptile beings? No. Did you say she was a loony? No. Go figure! Just because someone does not read a link does not make them uneducated. That is a fallacy.
Don’t go judging all the people here. If cannot take someone seriously then it is only YOU – don’t drag everyone into your ‘only right’ way of thinking. I don’t take you seriously either.
Daisy, I am still waiting for your 1 shred of prove in what you said. If not then it is a fallacy and your a loony and uneducated according to some brainy commentator.
Yeah, it’s all about the Joos. These evil Joos. I was making bets with myself about the number of posts after which the subject will come up.
All this talk of conspiracy theories makes me a bit disappointed that I missed out! Just yesterday I started reading various conspiracy theories for relaxation. It can be very inspiring if one wants to write a science-fiction novel. My favorite one, of the ones I read, was that the center of the earth is actually hollow with an internal sun. You get to the center through either the north or south pole, although most people don’t realize it because there is a very slow slope. People live on the other side of the crust. The internal atmosphere where people live is much, much closer to a “perfect” society. The beings there are able to live for thousands of years and communicate with us via telepathy. You can check out the following links for more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_Earth http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/holearth.html
I forget, though, what is the point of this topic again? It seems to have gone from Iman’s experiences to sexual assault, rape, and the exploitation of women in various societies to a lesson in critical thinking about fallacies and now we are getting into conspiracy theories? Wow! This is a bit like playing the game “telephone” where one thing is whispered into one person’s ear, that person whispers it into the next persons ear, etc. By the time it gets to the other side, the message is completely different from the original. (This works with movement, such as taking a step or two forwards and trying to copy it EXACTLY around the circle.) I guess now I’m changing the topic to children’s games. How fun!
@Medina, Oby
I really enjoy reading the dialogue between the two of you. I think it has shown various perspectives of how Western vs. KSA societies are perceived. I especially enjoy hearing your stories Medina! Thanks.
Sarah MD,
I told you to read pre-Islamic Archaeology. Unfortunately these researches are not online. You’ll have to sit in a library and plod through archaeology books and unfortunately those kinds of libraries which have rationally researched material on pre-Islamic Arabia are not there in Saudi Arabia – for the obvious reasons.
One has to take the pains to go through this kind of years of research. I can’t lay it on a platter before you.
If you are interested, you can consider enrolling in a good Archaeology department abroad and use the library resources and also use your Saudi connection to unravel these layers which are usually not talked about.
But for this, first you’ll have to come out of Saudi Arabia and second, you’ll have to get some training in secular education and third, you’ll have to distance yourself from all religions and study those pre-Islamic periods and their archaeological evidences dispassionately – even if you come across evidences which counter your Islamic notions.
You will have to be prepared to get shocks during this research.
For the time being you can read –
Christine Fielder and Chris King, Sexual Paradox: Complementarity, Reproductive Conflict and Human Emergence
Moon-o-theism: religion of a war and moon god prophet, Volume 2
Daisy,
“I told you to read pre-Islamic Archaeology”
You told me? How absurd and riduculous that sounds! You are the one who came up with some bizarre stuff and instead of solidifying your claim wih proofs, you tell me to READ?
Now if I were to do that, then some weirdo here will accuse me of some fallacies and some uneducated topic I am coming up with. What do they have to say about you. NOTHING! Nada! Why? Because you are belonging to them. This is conspiracy!
Your claim is nothing but hot air and hindus are coming up with many strange ideas to get out of their own bizarre beliefs.
@Sarah Md,
“Did you ask for 1 shred of proof of reptile beings? No. Did you say she was a loony? ”
Too funny, The reason no one asked for proof on that one is it was brought up as a sarcastic rebuttal to your conspiracy theories. No one believes in it. “It was a joke”.
SarahMD, I am not sure about how to take part of your comment, I think we may have a misunderstanding here.
Do you actually believe that i am a serious believer in the ”Reptile Conspiracy”???
Do you actually believe my religion is to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Goddess of the Invisible Pink Unicorn?
Because I think we may be discussing (partly at least) at cross purposes.
After reading all this insane babble the ONE thing that stands out as completely insane is Sarah MD getting upset over Daisy telling her to READ!!! Lol…
Sarah MD….despite all the fluff in these comments…of which little of merit is offered and worthy of mentioning…someone advising you to read is the best bit of advice yet given.
Reading would cure half the crap this blog offers up in the form of comments. Reading would and could do wonders for those less informed. Reading is the medicine for ignorance on a variety of topics.
Dont be upset with Daisy for advising you to read…its hands down the wisest thing she has thus far said on this blog.
To my fellow bloggers…I apologize for the lengthof this response and the circles we seem to be going in. I have done my best to explain and if I have bored you all please excuse. One more try…
@Medina…
I thought we were on the same page but now am wondering if you are all over the page to be obtuse on purpose.
“My question, why did not you consider their reply when they say we can not go to male section because it is Haram?”
OK…fine…I didn’t mention it because what in the world does that have to do with a women being able to make choices for herself? Go to college, who to marry,if she chooses to work, etc. I am not clear on why you think a woman in KSA can’t be pious and STILL have some say over her life. Where in the Qur’an does it say that a woman is not allowed to make any decisions without a mahrem? Either KSA has got it wrong or a lot of the other Muslim majority countries do.
How can you an intelligent man, look at your country which actively discriminates against anyone but Muslims so much so that it is in your laws and stand there bold faced and tell me I am being hypocritical when Switzerland wouldn’t allow DECORATION for Muslims? Are there Muslims still in Switzerland? Have they booted them out? Are they still employed and able to pray in their mosques and eat in halal restaurants? Are their children still able to go to school? Are they able to celebrate Ramadan? Are they able to wear hijab? When I told you they (Muslims) are protected by law? Whan I told you my country in order to be fair to all,muslims included has decided NOT to declare themselves a religious state. Would it be better if we declared ourself Chirstian and then dicriminated against all those not christian…in effect that is what KSA does. You keep harping on the fact that Muslims are citizens in the West…great. But Saudi DOESN’T ALLOW any citizens other than those who are Muslim, so of course the citizen argument is conveient for you. No need to worry about non Mulsims as they are not allowed.
I WILL SAY IT CLEARLY: IF KSA CAN DECIDE FOR ITSELF HOW TO DEFINE IT’S CULTURE WHICH INCLUDES OUTRIGHT DISCRIMINATION AGAISNT ALL EXCEPT MUSLIMS THE WEST SHOULD BE ABLE TO ALSO. YOU HAVE NO LEG TO STAND ON ON THE RACIST/DISCRIMINATION CLAIM.
And I am NOT saying get rid of Muslims or close down mosques or anything like that. I am saying once again for clarity:The west should have a right to say what it will and won’t accept and decide for itself. That doesn’t mean only things related to Muslims it means things realted to all people of which muslims happen to be part. Sometimes Muslims will get what they want sometimes they won’t; sometimes the right wing will get what it wants and sometimes it wont; sometimes the left wing will get what they want and sometimes they won’t; sometimes Christians will get what they want and somethmes they won’t…It is the way life goes…
“You showed a tendency that western countries should not give their citizenships to Muslims just because Saudi does not give citizenship to non Muslims”
WHERE in this whole argument did I say that? You are putting words in my mouth and anyone on these blogs knows I have not advocated deporting Muslims. I take offense to that as you have dreamed that whole thing up to suport your argument. If you remember correctly it started out about niqab and you stating that the ban was discriminatory and I said all Western countries should have the right to define for themsleves what they are comfortable with. I NEVER stated we should get rid of Muslims or take away their ability to practice their faith.
“you ignored the fact that all Muslim countries have Christian minorities and there are churches and no Muslim stood against them and revoke their rights to build their churches.”
That may be somewhat true. I will tell you of a story I saw on the news last night. It is about the Christian orthodox faith in Turkey. The faith is dying out in Turkey becasue the government has ruled against the faith. There were two major expulsions of Christians by the govermment one in the 1920′s and one in the 1950′s. Thousands upon thousands have been tossed out of the coutnry…because they were Christian. Now the country has less than 1000 christians, churches have been closed down, as there are no people left to attend, the churches are not allowed to be repaired and are falling into rubble over the years…but worst of all IMO is that in the 1970′s the Turkish government closed the one school that they had for training priests. The twist is that according to Turkish law a prist that has not been trained/born in Turkey may not lead a church there. So in effect the government through laws has wiped out the Christian population. As they won’t allow anyone not trained in Turkey to lead a chuch and have closed the only school needed to do it they have made it impossible for any new leaders to be brought forward. The old priests will die and after them there is no more. Turkey is supposed to be one of the most secular and forward thinking Muslim countries. So Medina, please don’t give me the song and dance that Christians are able to practice freely. NOTHING NEAR the freedom Muslims have here. Medina…Christianity started there. It has been there since before Islam. In fact, the church has a document made between Prophet Mohammed and the indigenous peoples, in effect a treaty saying that all the faiths already in Turkey should live in peace and harmony and be allowed to practice freely and should not be discriminated against. I have heard Muslims say that over and over on these blogs. The document is “signed” with Mohameds handprint. If that is true why have Muslims gone against what the prophet has said? As the priest said “Islam is doing the wrong thing”
Here is the link if you want to hear about it yourself:
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60minutes/main3415.shtml
Finally, I know the difference between Saudis and Muslims. I know the way you practice Islam in ksa is not howmany people pracrtice it. Are all the other Muslims wrong? Or are there different interpretations within Islam? If Muslims can decide for themselves who they chose to practice their faith why can’t a country decide for itself how to define itself.
I also notice that you still haven’t answered my question about polygamy or Sharia..
I understand as a Saudi who believes in and defines themselves by Sharia and who has said that the Qur’an is the way to live ones life aka sharia…you can’t answer that question. The Qur’an states that Muslim people should live by the law of the land that they are in, does it not? If one believes that to be a true Muslim they must live by Sharia (and have a right to polygamy) then living in a secular country must be something of a conundrum is it not? That must be quite a difficult internal fight. But I also believe the Qur’an says that if Muslim one should live in a Muslim land if possible and if not possible they are to get their education etc. and then return home to a muslim majority country to avoid being “tainted” . (I read all this on a Muslim website refferred by one of the Muslims on this blog.) Medina, if that is the case why are Muslims wanting to come to the West and NOT go back to the Muslim homelands? IS IT POSSIBLE that they find the rights/opportunities/lifestyle MORE conducuve to being a good Muslim or that MAYBE just maybe there is one more than one way to interpret the Qur’an/Muslim faith and the Saudi way is not the only way? If that is the case then is it not possible the whole Mahrem thing as applied in KSA (not including wedding) is not Islamic but cultural?
Believe what you like but I don’t have regular access to a computer and it is a very slow one so to do these posts takes forever. Next week I will be back home and happy to use my fast one.
@Oby
And let’s not forget another question regarding religious minorities of the Middle East: whatever happened to once-thriving and wealthy Jewish communities of Middle Eastern Muslim-majority countries? Why are there very few of them left in the Middle East? Were they toleranced out of the country?
First of all, Coolred38, Daisy didn’t mean to read in the best possible way. She meant “go and find out yourself”. Do you see the difference?
I love to read and to read is very good I agree. In fact the first revelation was “Read’.
Daisy did not mean that. But I agree with you that if she meant to read in a polite way, that could well be the wisest thing she has ever typed on this blog.
I talked about zionist conspiracy and that is a well known subject and nothing new. Googling it will display pages and pages on the subject. But what Daisy claimed, is something unusual and for this reason I had askjed her for some kind of reference and what does she do? She does what Daisy is best at – being arrogant and rude.
Anyway I don’t really care what she says or does, but one thing I want to say is that when I bought the subject of her beliefs she says :
“It’s not for the others to judge how a group of people imagine a divine form. It’s none of their business.” And yet she spends lot of hours on this blog judging Saudi’s’ belief system.
All this just shows her purpose of hanging out on this blog. I am not the first one to say this.
@Strangeone
IF you are really interested in conspiracies, then you must read the conspiracy of 9/11. The biggest deception EVER.
@Aafke
If that was a joke, ha ha! But you will be surprised when you discover some more things in this conspiracy subject.
Oby,
What about the rights on muslim women in the west? Why are they not allowed to dress as they please. Even though in KSA, it is disliked for women to walk naked as in the West, western women are given compounds to live and walk as they please. This compound works for both cultures. Did the west give compounds for the muslims or any arrangements for them?
The conspiracy is that people have been given to think that saudi women are mistreated and are not given their rights. This is what those people want you to think. Women lik, Iman, did not like to live in KSA as she liked the free life of the west. It is her choice. But there are many who like this life.
So why should anyone bother about women in KSA. See if you are soooo concerned about women, why only women in KSA, why not other women who are suffering. You see what I mean by conspiracy. Believe me some people have an agenda. They try to break up societies and cultures for their own sinsiter evil plans. It is so obvious. ( I don’t mean you, but people on higher levels who know how to do this).
@Sarah
“Even though in KSA, it is disliked for women to walk naked as in the West, western women are given compounds to live and walk as they please. This compound works for both cultures. Did the west give compounds for the muslims or any arrangements for them?”
In KSA it is illegal, not disliked, for women to walk around “naked as in the West.” I hope you can appreciate the difference between a few stares and jail time.
Western women are not “given” compounds. Those who can afford to live there, do. Those who do not, deal.
And here in the U.S. Muslim women are completely free to dress as they please. I saw niqabis stroll around Washington, DC, a few times. They garnered a few looks but absolutely no police attention.
SaraMD, I don’t think you are bored with the links I gave you, I think they are too difficult for you to read and understand.
Which is a pity because as it is your manner of argumentation, and your not understanding the use of logic and not understanding the definition of a ”fallacy” even (and gave you the dictionary terms), makes your level of understanding really too far below par to be able to join in discussions here.
And really, you should learn how to use Google.
@ Sarah Md,
There are a lot of things that occur(ed) in both politics and history (to include religion), in my opinion, that only a select few will ever know the complete truth about, at least in this life. I don’t pretend to know or even have all the answers. I just admit what I believe and try to use logic, intuition, and experience to figure the rest out. Needless to say, this results in me asking “why” or “how come” a lot.
@ Everyone
In case my intentions were unclear, I was trying to be silly and point out that the conversation here, for the most part, had gotten way off topic and I did not understand how it is in any way related to Iman’s interview. I really wish some of these could be moved to a different posting or something because I think it is distracting for people who simply want to read others’ views on Iman’s interview and/or surrounding issues brought up related to the interview.
I have had this problem myself looking up past posts on this website. Most of the time I skim over the ones I’m not interested in and read the rest. Sometimes, I get impatient and just read the post itself (but not the comments) and other times I read them all (and usually end up considering it a waste of time- which is my fault for wasting my own time).
Related to the interview and surrounding topics:
My view is that any given culture should be respected for what it is. While I do believe that women in KSA should have more legal rights and legal protection because bad people exist in every country (yes, even in the US & other “Western” countries), at the same time there is a whole cultural element that must be considered. Since I am not from there and have never been there, I do not fully understand this cultural element and therefore do not see it as my place to judge. Societies and cultures are slow to change. I do not see any reason why it should be “westernized”, either.
I have a lot of respect for the importance given to family that is seen in a lot of families in countries like KSA that is not as strong or noticeable in countries like the US. I find it kind of sad that a lot of families in the US do not make more of an effort to help each other and spend time with one another. Of course, there are exceptions to this generality in both countries/types of societies.
And I do not see a problem with women wearing a niqab if they so choose even in Western countries, although I think it should be their personal choice. There are times I wish I was less noticeable to guys (even when wearing jeans and a loose hoodie), but I do not think that how one covers makes much of a difference overall in this as some guys are more attracted the more one covers (have heard someone admit to this before).
I think the main thing anyone can learn from Iman’s interview is that it would be nice if we could all just be loved and accepted for who we are even when we make mistakes. This does not mean that one has to agree with your actions- just that they love and accept you- all of you- anyways and are there for support as we need it. This is hard to find anywhere in the world, especially when people are expected to act a certain way in a given community (on any level, such as a christian church group in the US). It would also be nice if the laws everywhere in the world protected basic human rights, such as being able to admit you were sexually assaulted and get psychological help and support from loved ones without fear of punishment and/or being seen negatively in the eyes of others.
Or if it’s not a “basic human right” (see last sentence in most recent previous post), then whatever you consider it to be.
Strangeone, in a very long topic like this the discussion inevitably wanders off. It always happen like this. Anyway, I think the topics are still related to Iman’s interview.
I don’t agree that all cultures (or religions for that matter) deserve respect. People deserve respect if they deserve it by their actions.
But ideologies, or manmade constructs do not.
And if we take a small detail of Saudi ”culture”, eg the suppression of women, that may have been the culture of a small poverty stricken minority stuck in the sands around Riyad, but it was not the culture of the rest of the huge country, it has been imposed on the rest of the country by force during the last decades.
Same goes for veiling the face. That has never been ”the culture” in other places in KSA, but has been enforced in recent decades by the people from Riyad. As you can see on photographs, and as many Saudis and expats still remember.
The new custom of not even allowing foreign, non-muslim women to walk around in normal clothes is also very recent.
And last but not least, if you manage to make a woman believe the idea that they will be deserving and culpable in case of sexual harassment or rape if they do not veil their faces, that some god prefers them above other women if they veil, or even that they will burn in hell if they do not veil, then there can be no talk of ”free choice”: the choice has already been made for them by the architects of their religion. (the men who make it up) And the women are forced to comply, or else… In these cases the concept of free will is wholly imaginary.
And as veiling demonstrably goes hand in hand with gender oppression and gender discrimination and gender apartheid, I think anybody with reason and intelligence should fight it, not ”respect” it.
I also think it is high time Muslims show some respect for western countries and cultures and act accordingly, instead of whining whenever their disrespect for our cultures impede on newly minted ”cultural” misogynist restrictions on women.
@sarahMD…
There is no need for a muslim woman to live on a compound because as far as I know (with the recent exception of the niqab issue in Euope) Muslim women have the right to dress any way they like. I find these arguments maddening because unless you are walking around with your eyes,ears and brain closed(and I don’t mean you personally I am talking about you in general) it is obvious that they can…look at London, look in my neighborhood where muslim women REGULARLY wear longer skirts or loose caftans or the like with hijab fully covered with chador or what have you. If not wearing the niqab negates all the other things allowed then I would have to say “oh well.” We can’t have everything we want. I would not want someone walking around 24/7 wearing a KKK hood either. I can’t do and have everything I want either. It is about give and take. If one wants 100% then I suggest they go where they can get 100%. But don’t go to Syria or Turkey ‘casue you won’t get it there either. And don’t you think they should be more inclined to that than a non Muslim country. Why aren’t people up in arms about that one? I still have not heard a single person answer my question. Is it because it is a Muslim country and it doesn’t feel so obnoxious when muslim country says no to something Muslim? Does it feel more of a “offense ” when it comes from a non muslim country? I don’t know. If it were me I would be way more pissed about something muslim being banned in a muslim country where it will affect a lot of people many more than here. Or does it feel opressive because non muslims have made a rule for the Muslims. Truly that is a bit of a mystery to me.
Again…the unending argument that everything should be allowed. If the West is so awful and women are having their rights trampled left ,right and center then I suggest that they don’t come here. For me I am not sure what is so difficult about this concept. I defy you to show me one Muslim majority country where a Muslim woman can have the rights she has in the West under the law and then let’s talk about being dicriminated against. As I said, I can’t smoke where I want and I can’t pray in school anymore…when I was a kid one could pray AND we said the “Pledge of Allegience” We are not even allowed to say that anymore because we might offend someone. What about me being offended that I can no longer pray in school or put my hand over my heart and be proud of my country? I used to have that right until it was taken away. By bowing to the ones who didn’t want it they took away my rights to do it…and we used to do it daily when I was a kid. How about my rights? The point is Sarah MD…you can’t please everyone…sometimes you get what you want and sometimes you don’t.
@
sarah MD…
“The conspiracy is that people have been given to think that saudi women are mistreated and are not given their rights. This is what those people want you to think. Women lik, Iman, did not like to live in KSA as she liked the free life of the west. It is her choice. But there are many who like this life.”
I have said it several times and I don’t know why it hasn’t been understood. I will use a metaphor:
When all one know is chocolate ice cream how can one say they don’t like vanilla? They like chocolate…it has worked for them for al their life…no need to try anything else because well, they like chocolate ice cream…but what if they tried vanilla and actually liked it? What if they decided that this was their new flavor becasue it was so yummy? OR what if they tried it and thought…nah…I really prefer choclate.
The point I am trying to make when one knows nothing else they will often remain content. If a Saudi woman could decide some of her own fate and I am not even saying leave KSA. What if she could decide who she wanted to marry or what job she chose to study for and what if her mahrem could not force her to do what he wanted to do and put that power squarely in her hands…don’t Westernize anything…just let her be the decision maker for her own life would the world stop spinning tomorrow? and if she then said I prefer to have a mahrem I would feel far better saying well, she saw what was possible and chose this…then she made a choice. It isn’t a choice if you have no other options.
Oby, I said much the same when we had a discussion about women driving. One Saudi bloke claimed his mother never drove and didn’t want to drive etc.
But the opinion of somebody who doesn’t know what she is talking about isn’t valid. If you have never experienced the great feeling of driving a car (and driving well) and being able to go where you want, when you want, the freedom, ease and range a car gives you, then your opinion is meaningless.
If you don’t know how good it feels to be independent, make your own money, go wherever you want, dress how you want, meet whom you want, vote, study, travel, etc. etc. etc. then your opinion is meaningless.
Aafke you said: ‘If you don’t know how…then your opinion is meaningless’ ?! And ‘But the opinion of somebody who doesn’t know what she is talking about isn’t valid’
You of all people are denying somebody to make their mere opinion known? You, Aafke, who has an opinion on almost everything? So does that mean you are an expert on everything?
Aafke, so by your own reasoning until *you* are born and raised in Saudi as a Saudi woman, then your opinion must be meaningless also.
But lemme guess, you (et al) are the ones who need to teach the ‘ignorant’ Saudi women because they can’t even think or be allowed to have opinions.
Wait.
Perhaps they are only forbidden (by you) to make opinions when those opinions contradict yours.
You sound nothing better than a European colonist (‘Those ignorant savages! We need to save them from themselves!!)
Correction, obviously I was talking about your opinion on being a Saudi woman, not in regard to other things.
ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TAKE IT TO THE DEBATE PAGE. NOW.
I am ready to start deleting irrelevant comments from this post.
Mother Hen Bedue
TEXT removed by AMERICAN Bedu as inappropriate to context of post.
Inappropriate context should be moved to debate page.
TEXT Removed by American Bedu as not relevant to post after request made to take this to debate page.
Let me say firstly that Iman has had an awful experience and no one denies that. But:
Aww, when anti-Saudi Aafke, Daisy et al comments go off-topic Mother hen Bedu doesn’t step in – but forbid if anyone else does. Carol don’t get upset, you should be much happier as you have been reuniting with your kitties. Feel free to repost comments here – but there are so many off-topic ones, everything from the Taliban, to prostitution in Netherlands and how liberating it is, to Turkey, to citizenship issues, not to mention conspiracy theories about ‘the jews’ lol @ that- how is that related to Iman and her awful experiences?Again, no one is denying that what happened to her was awful, but it’s just that these topics (hijab, mahram, polygyny, divorce etc) seem to generate most of the anti-Saudi sentiment from the I-hate-Saudi club. Just seems hypocritical to me that’s all.
Aafke,
I feel like I have so much to learn!!
It seems I need to read about the history of Saudi Arabia. Thanks for pointing that out.
I do not understand the whole concept of veiling, just that if someone wants to, it’s not hurting me any and I don’t see it as hurting them any, although maybe my opinion would change after further research on the topic? I don’t know. I do not see how that is much different than abstaining from certain foods/drinks, etc. as far as religious practices go. I do not personally believe it is right for someone to feel guilt-ed, pressured, etc. into doing the “right” thing; they should simply do it out of respect and/or love for God, themselves, and/or others. However, (in my opinion based on my experiences) I do not think most people would given this option. A lot of people seem to want to be told what to do so they see their life as holding value and meaning (for whatever reason) rather than just understanding that the fact they’re here and alive is a reason to value their life. (I know this sounds a bit cynical, but my personal experiences and watching what others have gone through have contributed to my view on this.) Obviously, you exist for a reason even if that reason is simply to enjoy life. I think one of the most important lessons in life is to simply learn to love God first, but also love both yourself and others equally and unconditionally (but at the same time stay true to your views on life, personal beliefs, etc.). This does NOT mean give up who you are for someone else/others.
I believe in monotheism personally, but do not agree fully with any one religion because I believe the best way to show love and devotion to the Creator is simply with how we live in our daily life. I think that sometimes, people within a given religion focus too much on whether a person meets “requirements” of a “devout”/”holy” person such as attending religious services, etc. However, many others will see things differently than me and I think that as long as it isn’t hurting anyone, should be respected.
I guess I am more tolerant of others’ views (possibly too much) because I have been the minority many times in one way or another. There are many times I’ve gotten caught in the middle of different situations and been forced to choose sides, whether outright or by omission. And if I haven’t been the minority and/or experienced hardships, then someone close to me has. I do my best to be more neutral and understanding until I have a good, logical reason not to be.
ALL:
Those who are known for hijacking or sidetracking threads have been informed that is not going to be tolerable. In addition to myself, I have asked my blog moderator to watch out for comments which are not appropriate to topics.
Sarah MD,
Please go to the debate page to see my reply.
@strangone, you are always a nice positive addition (:
@oby,
You are dear to me here and I find you a nice person. Sometimes, I intentionally become picky just to tease you hehehe. So, do not be very serious. Life is short (:
It is nice debating with you and no offence plz. Everyone of us stated its points and I think now it is time for the readers to review these points. It is not necessary that we agree on everything but the most important thing is that we do not get upset just because we hold different opinions at the intergroup level but hopefully not at the interpersonal level. I enjoy life of diversity.
You may think that I am a traditional Saudi but in fact I am not. As I said before my personal opinion is not a big matter in debate. The big issue is the mainstream opinion which Iman was complaining about. So, that is why I took this position to make a balance for valid argument.
Anyway, oby, I would think that you try to make a campaign against Saudi men asking them to wear abaya to feel the difference. Maybe it will help to change something for women there (:and this is my last comment here.
Salam
It is abundantly clear that there are a great many Saudi women who, despite of the attempt to brainwash them from an early age on, are very clear in their own minds that they do not want to live under the yoke of gender oppression.
The activist Wajeha Huwaider calls the current status of women a state of slavery.
Iman found living under the restrictions placed on her intolerable.
We read in this interview she was very well aware of the distinctions between herself and her brother, the unfairness and persecution women in Saudi Arabia have to live under.
No need for any western woman to tell her so.
Iman’s own story, culminating in the awful, unfair, biased manner she was treated by the Saudi government, and how her attacker was spared any inconvenience, is a prime example of the simple fact that treatment of women in KSA is bad, unfair, unjust, oppressive, misogynist, biased, and plain evil.
No need for any western woman to tell her so.
We read on other Saudi women’s blogs how much they dislike the oppression aimed at them, even while they love their country. If they have been studying abroad we read how difficult it is for them to be suffocated again under the gender bias in KSA, How much they missed their cars and the simple freedoms of being out of doors and feeling the wind on their faces. The freedom of not being judged at every instance. We read in the comments that women suffer and are trapped and unhappy because of the unjust treatment of women in Saudi Arabia.
No need for any western woman to spell it out for them.
And lets not forget this blog. American Bedu stands chock a block full of comments by women who suffer under the oppression, and other people who speak out against them because they like women to be second rate humans.
In this interview you can see how the bigots treat a Saudi woman who is strong, honest and outspoken. We see how they blame her by default for any hurt an man chooses to mete out to her. We read how they make up ”sins” she has committed, medical mistakes are imagined up, all just so they can put the blame on her.
No western woman needs to explain this to Iman.
This is a frank interview with an honest woman who has lived the Saudi life and sees it for what it is: oppressive, biased, unfair, unjust.
Without a western woman telling her so.
And all the crap and nonsense written in the comments by men who like the status quo, and those women with whom the brainwashing did take hold, and the evil comments and threats aimed at her on her own blog, serves only to prove her point: Saudi Arabia is a hellish place to live for women.
No western woman needs to explain this to anybody.
But I bet Iman and the other Saudi women who hate the unislamic gender apartheid and oppression they suffer, are very happy to know that they are not forgotten, and at least in spirit are supported by women all over the world who feel for them, and who have heart enough to at least speak out for them.
Trying to make out that it is bad, and call support for Saudi women ”kolonialism” and other nonsense is cheap and stupid. Because such oppressors have no logic, no honor, and no truth behind them they can only make their points and attacks by using one logical fallacy after the other, and as soon as they see they are losing the argument resort to changing the subject or name calling and backbiting.
They themselves proof that there are people who, for whatever reason, dó like the women of KSA to be slaves, and will use any method, no matter how stupid, silly or unfair to attack anybody who disagrees.
Because self awareness, opinions, outspokenness, intelligence, honor and honesty, and support by others, are the natural enemies of such a system of oppression.
@Medina…
“You are dear to me here and I find you a nice person.”
I feel the same too about you.
so now I will say to you:
salam (until our next debate)
Black swans and white crows…
This comment thread, all over the map as it is, has a consistent feel to it. Much of the debate/argument is over generalities. But when it comes to specifics, the answer tends to be ‘In fact, not all crows are black, nor all swans white.’
Iman’s experience is her experience, in many ways unique to her. In some ways, it is common to the experiences of many (not all) Saudi women… any non-Saudi women, for that matter.
Her culture, along with her family, did not provide her with the kinds of support she, as an individual, needed. Lacking what she needed, she sought to provide it herself. Some of her choices may not have been wise; others were very smart and useful to her physical and psychological survival. Note, we’re talking about her survival, not that of her family, clan, society, country. As the most basic human right is life, no one has the moral authority to gainsay her choices.
If her choices are not those that a commenter might make, that’s fine, but immaterial. If her choices were exactly what someone else might choose, well that’s fine, too. But equally immaterial. She is reporting her life, her experiences, her perceptions of the meaning of those experiences. Her actions and reactions based upon those perceptions and experiences. They all matter to her, in important ways. They shouldn’t matter to others very much at all. Iman is not Saudi Arabia nor is she the personification of ‘Saudi Women’. She is Iman.
Some Saudi women have supportive families that encourage individual growth; others do not. The fact is, though, that Saudi women are not accorded a full suite of human rights as recognized by most of the world. Instead, they have a diminished suite, defined by the Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights. These understandings of human rights have many similarities, but also important differences. One result is that Saudi women have very few ‘rights’ as understood by the world’s majority. Instead, they have sort of an ‘allowance’ given to them by the male half of society.
The Islamic Declaration is based on the idea that community values are greater than individual values; the ‘Western’ Declaration is almost diametrically opposite.
The trouble comes when we see that most of the world adheres to one understanding, while a minority–part of the Umma–follows the other. Both, based on heartfelt belief, see their vision as the one, true, and correct vision.
People seem to think that the opposing beliefs are somehow the result of misguidance, fuzzy thinking, corrupted philosophies. Perhaps, but perhaps not. Rather, each makes intrinsic sense for particular understandings of how societies work, or at least, ‘work best’. As both are the result of human endeavor (and I include the various interpretations of the Quran and Islam to be human endeavor), then both are likely to include error.
Faced with the inevitability of human error, I think it behooves us to hold back a moment, to understand that even we might be in error on some issues. We might also try to understand that categories and categorization–though immensely useful for mankind–fail in their own right when it comes to individual cases, the white crows and black swans.
On the prostitution front, motivations vary by individuals as well. While there are certainly those who are literally forced into it; there are those who find it the easier route to money; there are those who are involved because of other issues (abuse, drugs, etc.).Then there are those who are into it because a) the really like lots of sex and variety, and b) the money can be terrific, with their earning more in a month than their PhD peers earn in a year.
To sum it up, any generalization that does not take into account individual behavior and beliefs is going to be a flawed analysis. How flawed it is will be determined by how many individuals fall outside the generalization.
Brilliant comment John. Very good.
And I am happy to see you.
Iman is not the only woman’s voice in Saudi who speaks against the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia.
There are so many voices. Iman is not an exception. But women’s voices carry no weight. Not when they defend themselves or try to find justice, not when they ask to be treated as adults and to be able to make their own decisions.
In this clip you see another Saudi woman who also wants to be an individual, to make her own decisions, to be trusted to be morally responsible. And who claims that the school system in Saudi Arabia makes slaves of the people.
I have something to say to Iman Ashour, since she won’t publish my comments. I know that Carol is a just and fair person and I hope she won’t mind me using this space.
Iman Ashour accuses me of writing a hateful comment that is too despicable to post. She even dedicated a whole post on reporting on this comment and inflating it to comments. I simply commented on a post in which she said that Saudis send her hate mail. I wrote that it is ironic that she would write that and asked if it were all Saudis who are haters or just one. No profanity, nothing despicable about it at all. Why I wrote it is because it really is ironic since I’ve received Emails from her filled with the worst language you could imagine after I objected to her also using the same language in describing Saudi men in a Facebook discussion.
When I first saw her post I was frustrated with her lying about me. I truly considered a defamation lawsuit since I take my reputation and character seriously. I informed her in subsequent comments that she either take down the post or publish my comment as it is, as she and I both know I did not use anything even near hateful language. Anyone who knows me knows that I just don’t talk that way. After consulting with people, I decided to ignore her as anyone who knows her, knows that she is not credible. But the final straw was when she claims that I demanded that she shut down her blog or I will inform the Embassy. I did not write that. I wrote that she has until Monday to either tell the truth like a responsible accountable human being or I will call the embassy for a law firm referral.
And since she has taken it to this level, let me tell you that a lot of the things she writes about are fabricated. I won’t comment on things that happen behind closed doors. The hard cold facts are she was not raised in a four story house with four nannies and a new car every 6 months. She was raised in an apartment and her family were middle class. Her family, particularly her father, is well liked by many people. Another thing is I’ve worked in one of her workplaces after she left, and no one I’ve met there has a good word to say about her. She is a difficult person to interact with.
Knowing this and her previous Emails to me, should have made me stop before clicking the submit button on that comment that provoked her. It was a huge lapse in judgement on my part. Since she won’t let me get a word in edge-wise on her post about me, I chose to at least tell my side on this post.
Regarding the video…which I missed viewing before…all I can say is WOW!!! Whomever that woman is…she certainly didnt let the Holy Bearded One run her off stage…or camera.
I dont care what culture a woman comes from or what religion…when she can argue back using skill, knowledge, and the same exact book that the man is trying to throw back in her face or shove down her throat…and do it that well…she is worthy of my admiration and esteem.
And she did it without losing her cool…awesome.
Buthyna Al Nasser is wonderful and very articulate. If you understood Arabic, you would be even more impressed. There’s also Wajeha Al Huwaider, Nadine Al Budair, Badriya Al Bishr, Samar Al Maqrin, Amal Zahid, Halima Muthfer, Thuraya Al Ared……theses women stand up for not only women’s rights but civil rights, they stood up to censcorship and even death threats. And they have dedicated their lives here in Saudi to fighting for what’s right. Many young women have started to find their voice because of them.
Iman’s story did not sit well with me either and that is why I commented saying that we need to hear other side of the story. We only heard her side.
Hope she finds herself.