Let’s face it…Saudis and Americans do not see or hear things the same way. While a Saudi and an American may be having an exchange, rather than see or truly hear each other, they may in fact be perceiving a mirror image of themselves and how each of them think and react, rather than on the reality.
But even before we get to a face-to-face between a Saudi and an American, how do we receive and form our impressions of one another? For most Americans it is likely the media. The media so enjoys portraying Saudi Arabia as an Islamist state where women are viewed as slaves under the veil. Okay…well maybe not quite that bad but I think you get the picture.
Then how do many Saudis form their impression of America? Hollywood of course where women are seen as wild and loose always wearing immodest clothing. The men are loud and go after what they want.
Now what are in fact some of the realities that we may not know about one another that can impact on not seeing eye-to-eye?
Americans are overall naturally friendly and gregarious – men and women alike.
Saudis are naturally private people.
Americans like to smile easily and are not shy to greet someone not known.
Saudi culture discourages smiling and it is not appropriate to smile at and greet strangers. However, Saudi hospitality on the other hand, is renowned as among the best.
Americans are family oriented.
Saudis are family oriented.
Americans like to get right down to business or right to the point of a discussion.
Saudis take their time with business matters and it is the culture to exchange pleasantries over tea or coffee before beginning any business discussions.
Americans are not shy or timid to say no to something they do not agree.
Saudis do not like to say no and will typically give a soft no, such as “insha’allah.” (God willing) Yes would likely be “yes or of course, insha’allah.”
Saudis will not speak about their wives in conversations with other men.
American men do not think twice about mentioning their wife.
Saudis will not ask another man about his wife. Instead he would ask about the family.
An American man will easily ask about a man’s wife. This is not an interest in the other man’s wife but viewed as polite in American culture.
Saudi women will typically not reach out to shake hands with a man – Saudi or foreign.
American women do not think twice on reaching out to shake a man’s hand as a form of greeting.
American’s can be quite spontaneous and ask someone to their home at a first time meeting for dinner.
Saudis like to be hospitable but may be more inclined to take someone out for dinner before having them to their home until they know them better.
These are just a few of the cultural distinctions. What other ones are you aware of?
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quite sad that bit about saudi’s not smiling at strangers and also another example of how saudi culture and islam diverge since in islam, there’s a saying of prohet muhammaad (pbuh) that even a smile is charity and there’s a strong encouragement in another hadith to greet the one known as well as the stranger in order to strengthen the bond of love.
I beg to differ on the smile. Walking through the malls if I smile at a lady you can tell by the squint of their eyes they are smiling back. Of course you have to smile first but as you say Americans are quick with that. I am not sure if it is because it is woman to woman but I am grateful for it just the same.
I beg to differ regarding smiling. I have found that Saudi Riyadh women don’t smile at others, and even if you do, they may not reciprocate. However, in other cities, the women are more smily and may even greet you first.
I guess this is part of the bedu culture in Riyadh, and is not necessarily the case in other cities in Saudi.
This article contains a lot of misguiding information and poorly documented in regard to:
1- “Americans are overall naturally friendly and gregarious – men and women alike.” Are you sure? How did you come up with this conclusion? Is it a personal impression towards Americans or it is based on social studies? Well, there are many social studies state different opinions in this regard and they are well documented.
2- “Saudis are naturally private people.” What do private people stand for here?
3- “Americans like to smile easily and are not shy to greet someone not known.”
Are you sure? Again, how did you come up with this conclusion? Do not you agree with me that this information you provided here contradicts with the fact that Americans are very sensitive about their security?
4- “Saudi culture discourages smiling and it is not appropriate to smile at and greet strangers.” How did you come to this conclusion? Personal impression? How did you develop this personal impression?based on what?
I know the Saudi culture is Islamic oriented and drawing a face smile to someone is considered a good deed and rewarded by God and greeting, Alsalam alikum greeting is very recommend and practiced socially in the Saudi society in everyday life. Have you ever met a Saudi and he/she did not say Alsalam alikum? (:
5- “American’s can be quite spontaneous and ask someone to their home at a first time meeting for dinner” Are you sure or you are kidding me? lol. Carol, Honestly, and I ask you by God name, How many people have you personally invited at your home when you meet them for the first time? (:
6- lol @ Saudis like to be hospitable lol but may be more inclined to take someone out for dinner before having them to their home until they know them better. Carol, I ask you by God name, how many Saudis have personally invited you for dinner or lunch when they met you for the first time? (: Carol, Saudis are hospitable not like to be hospitable.(:
But why I try to correct your information while the book is obvious from its title, Osama’s picture is taken with the Saudi map. (:
so, I would agree with the first statement you made “Saudis and Americans do not see or hear things the same way” (:
I alwayes ends my comment with
Salam (greeting here too)
Salam (:
All of the Saudi traits are also present in India – and in many other Asian cultures. You can just replace “Saudi” with “Indian” in this post.
Except, that Indians are very animated speakers in public – somewhat like the Spanish. I imagine that Saudis are more restrained in their gestures in public, but I may be wrong.
After a period of interaction with Americans, I have realised that they readily show friendliness, but take time to become “friends” as in “close friends.”
I guess Saudis take time to show friendliness and perhaps don’t distinguish between friendliness and being friends – again, I may be wrong.
In India it’s much more complex – friendliness, being friends and an overt show of friendlienss or being friends without actually meaning it – have all many fine shades and it takes years to be able to discern these shades.
A smile is considered a charity and greeting someone you pass by is a good deed. When I was at the universtiy, my friend who was new to the area asked why everyone was greeting her. She said she does not even know them but they smle and say salam.
Even if you are walking in the suq, you will see people saying salam to each other. Men would even shake hands with other men. When they enter a majlis or a mosque, people especially men, will shake hands with people present there.
Americans that I have met are very friendly and talk jokingly. I find them funny (not them personally but their jokes). And I also found their conversations stimulating, and words are clearly spoken. Arabs speak poetically and with that they carry profound meanings to what they are saying.
As my husband has said so often through the years when I refuse to see things his way, “East is East and West is West, and the two shall never meet.” This was especially true for cooking when we had guests. If there were 4 people, there would be 4 large steaks and 4 potatoes for 4 people. (This was before we had kids.)
He’d say, “What if one of my other friends or my brothers decides to stop over for dinner?” And I’d say, “Well, they’d better call me first!”
Over the years, I’d say we’ve compromised about this issue. I make a lot more food now, (when I cook) because my children and their friends will usually polish it off later.
A few years ago, we were invited for dinner to a Saudi man’s home who had just married a young Palestinian gal. (He was divorced from his first wife.) My husband ate very little that day as he was sure this gal would want to show off in front of everyone with her cooking skills by making a huge Arabic dinner.
He was shocked when she only offered Thai food that evening that her maids had cooked. ROFLMAO
Times have changed! : )
The woman did feed her new husband his food as she sat on his lap, however. This behavior was a double shock for both of us….and a little over the top. I wonder if they’re still married and if she still feeds him. We never saw them after that. : )
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miriam, I can totally relate to the food issue – although my husband is Pakistani not arab. When you ask a british person if they would like a cup of tea they either say yes or no. If they so no, they don’t get anything. If an asian guests says no it is rude not to give them one. But yes the ways of hospitality can be a quagmire when the well meaning spouse is seen to look stingy! I have to say I now follow the philosophy of being over prepared in case anyone else turns up last minute.
Miriam Mac, that story was so funny!
We cannot ignore the historical development of Western societies that influenced the cultural change, with respect to social interactions with others. The industrial revolution that took place in Europe completely changed the social structure and along with it the behavior of every class in private and public. The Middle Class behavior standards have become the measuring rod of the behavior of the entire society, including the autocracy.
The Middle Class etiquettes emphasis politeness in private (say the magic word: please) and in public (being in a public place is to see and be seen, so watch your behavior and how you look and whom you are with). However, Middle Class etiquettes are not always adhered by those of less socio-economic backgrounds.
Generally, the Saudi population is comprised of Hather (those live in villages, towns, and cities) and Bedu (those how live in the desert). Obviously, the environment has its toll on the behavior of each segment, Hathers are nor polite and courteous than desert Bedu.
Moreover, Saudi Arabia has not gone through an industrial revolution as Europe. The Entire Saudi society has come out of a Third World country to a Developed country in various aspects, with remnants of a Third World society with respect to polite, civil social behavior. The lack of this politeness in the behavior of some Saudis shocks many people, especially that the society exhibits some characteristics of the industrial world and modernity, and Saudis are expected them to behave differently.
Saudi Hathers and Bedu are generally religious, passionate, compassionate, empathetic, generous, and hospitable. Nevertheless, the Saudis expressions of those qualities with non-Saudis are misunderstood, misinterpreted, and taken advantages of.
I do not believe in the idea that Saudis are not in good terms with Americans. I believe it is the other way around. Westerns in general and Americans in particular are not in good terms with Saudis because of 9/11 consequences.
On my travels within the US, Europe, and even neighboring countries, I employ those Western Middle Class qualities (politeness, smiling, carrying oneself properly in public, and wearing the right attire) several people approach me and talk with me, and once any one – be it a male or female – know that I am a Saudi rolls the eyes up, holds back, and shuns away. Some continue the conversation and take it up to different levels. So where the problem exists.
I also do not agree with the idea that Saudis don’t invite non-Saudis to their houses at the first time/date. Their houses are not holy shrines; it is mostly because what others might think of them and their conditions, when some one visits their houses, especially with their perception that all Westerners are affluent. The house is a reflection of the person, and Americans also give a high consideration to this idea (what others think of them).
The reason that Americans/Saudis don’t see eye-to-eye, if true, and Americans don’t hear and see the same thing Saudis do is because of what Osama Bin Laden did, and I think he succeeded in driving a wedge between the US and Saudi Arabia.
I completely agree to the “NO” part, it took me a long long time to understand “inshallah” meant No , “i will try maybe” als means NO ..
it’s cultural, like i have this funny indian way of noddingmy head side to side and that’s a “YES” or “OK” baffled my patients and co-workers for a while
I don’t think both countries will see ey- eye, wy should they theya re at diff stages an ddiff cultures, to each is own. I’m more an enforer of in rome do as the romans.. till it makes you uncomfortable, and then leave or stay inside your house
The one bigg difference to me between the 2 was in saudi i was treated diff.. i was not one of them and they made sure i understood..politely of course , here personally america is more acceptig of my difference.
Saudi is very much like india inthat.. and god forbod you’re an indian insaudi – even an educated one. your’re treated much different than the westerners..you should see how thetreatment changes miraculously as soon as you produce your US passport …but it’s their culture and if you don’t like it i guess you can always leave.:-0
Medina I think Carol’s statements are ‘in general’ and not all inclusive so don’t take it that she means every single person in the country.
My experiences in Saudi are this:-
It is not good for a woman to look at anybody and especially if they are not Muslim and definitely would be not good to actually speak to a Saudi. Having said that I did smile at the odd woman and sometimes I got a smile back but mostly not.
Saudis are more private that some in that they do not freely speak about their family or anything else to someone they know casually and they are more cautious about inviting people to their home – at least they are more cautious about inviting a husband and wife to their home.
My experiences in Sudan are this:-
People smile and greet total strangers – male and female alike.
If they think you’re from ‘away’ they will engage you in a conversation about where you live.
Sudanese WILL invite a stranger to their home for a meal and their hospitality is absolutely amazing!
Sudanese will ask how a husband/wife is and then the children.
As a Canadian my experiences are this:-
Depending on where you live people may or may not greet strangers on the street but generally if there are only two of you passing on a street a smile or hello will happen. Canadians living on the west coast are much more friendly than those on the east and will easily get into conversations with strangers although will not divulge private information.
When people who already know each other meet they will ask first how the husband/wife is and then ask about the children.
Canadians seldom invite people to their home for meals spontaneously. They like to arrange a time and do a special dinner. They do not always have big pots of food on the stove.
These are just a few of the differences I’ve noticed between countries but there are many more. None of them are right or wrong but just ARE!
Carol, great article.
Radha, Insha Allah throws everyone off here. : )
Sara, ditto on the tea thing. Arabic coffee can be funny to watch for new guests
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Unfortunately, I think that Carol’s two pictures ….the one of Osama and the other of Hollywood show the two mediums that have done so much harm to how most Americans view Saudis as well as the religion since 9/11.
Miriam, Knowing it’s rude not to take coffee at Saudi’s houses I do take a cup but honestly I do not like it. It took me a while to learn to leave some in the cup if i didn’t want it refilled. Once I had about 3 cups before my friend told me to leave some at the bottom. Saudi/Aran tea I love. I miss the habaaq we used to buy from the roadside – delcious.
It’s also funny seing my Dad visit his Morroccan friend. He tells him not to cook anything and then makes sure he comes between lunch and dinner but there is always a meal waiting for him regardless. My Dad just feels that if he says no he should not have to eat because he doesn’t want to burden the host but for the Morroccan host it is an insult if he doesn’t have some food.
What I’ve noticed and what I’ve posted previously about is the incessant personal questioning by some Saudis.
I have never met an American to be as forward as this during the get-to-know-you process.
I find it rude to be bombarded with personal questions by a complete stranger. It turns me off that particular person and I’d rather not make the effort in getting to know them at all.
I once became so frustrated with a Saudi woman in a salon asking me so many questions I just lost my temper and told her, “I don’t like your questioning and find it rather odd”. She replied it was normal here in Saudi in which I replied vehemently, “I’m NOT Saudi and it is NOT normal in other parts of the world!”.
But thankfully I have had the pleasure of befriending more tactful Saudi women who actually bothered to get to know me as an individual without troubling themselves with the name of my husband, where he works, how many wives he has, where we live, where we travel and information about this or that!
I asked my close Saudi friends about this and they said for the women who do this they are considered “malgoofah” or is it “margoofah”.? Anyway, it means “nosey”.
Call it what you will but it is something I will never become accustomed to.
I just remembered a funny story…an American woman new to Riyadh was being interrogated by a Saudi woman about who her husband was. The American replied, “Don’t worry dear, it’s not your husband!” I wasn’t there to hear this but I would have loved to have seen the Saudi’s reaction!
Radha,
It seems your keyboard is not working either like my keyboard at the moment!
I’m using an on-screen keyboard, which makes typing slow, but better than missing characters.
Your comment about Saudis’ attitude towards Indians is very apt.
All this hospitality business is towards the White foreigner and really shows the racism and hypocrisy of Saudi Arabia.
Saudis show great hospitality and generosity to their Indian domestic helpers, who live next to them, all the time, whereas WHITE people don’t live with them; they are guests, and should be shown special hospitality.
Nevertheless, Saudis are very selective when it comes to Indians, as they are cautious about diseases; here is what scares them about Indians (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iC71S3o-4U).
Abdulrahman – I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to WHITE people…I had my housemaid live in my home with me when I lived in New Delhi.
American Bedu,
Some commented that Saudi hospitality is only reserved to WHITE people, and I am showing via audio and video why this hospitality is not extended to Indians that most of them display slum culture. Imagine those Indians were invited to anyone’s house; surely they would do not know what hospitality is. Despite that, Saudis took the risk and let those Indians (servants and housemaids) live with them and show them a treat of Saudi hospitality, so they don’t envy WHITE people, who receive special Saudi hospitality, because they don’t live with Saudis; they are special guests.
What about concepts of time?
And concept of wedding presents?
Let me elaborate:
Americans:
When a friend is getting married, they wait for the invitation to arrive in the mail. Upon receiving, they inform the couple whether they will or will not be able to attend. Whether able to attend or not, those who receive an invitation will feel obligated to send a gift, which most of the time will be sent to the couple’s home ahead of time.
Saudi/Arab:
When a friend is getting married, they will ask a friend, “You have to invite me! Where and when is the wedding?” Upon receiving a printed invitation in the mail, they will not reply until repeatedly pestered to RSVP and confirm attendance. Some will confirm and cancel the night before or simply not show up. Most will not bring or send a wedding gift (with a notable exception of Iraqis).
oh yes…gifts and time are also seen quite differently between East and West. In addition to distinctions in ways of giving wedding gifts (or not) there is also a difference pertaining to gifts. In America, it’s okay to say “I love your watch” or “you have a beautiful necklace.” In Saudi one has to be very careful about openly admiring something for the Saudi in turn may insist that you take it!
Gee, I wished I knew that before. I would have eyed the jewelry on people who didn’t give us any wedding gifts and admired it loudly and conspicuously.
@ Abdulrahman A. Al-Zuhayyan
The video you posted broke my heart. I can’t imagine living as those poor Indians do. The family depicted in the video seemed like decent, hardworking people. You cannot blame them for being in the slums, their corrupt government is to blame.
It is very sad. They are impoverished in their own country then come to Saudi looking for work only to be disrespected and discriminated against.
But I disagree when you say Indian slums are a good example of why Saudi people do not extend their hospitality towards Indians.
Let’s face it, there are some poor people who live in filth because they are lazy and then there are other poor people who live in filth but are hardworking and simply don’t have the opportunity to improve their situations. I believe the Indians who live in those slums fit in the latter category.
But their situation is not a valid reason for Saudis (or anyone else) to mistreat them or hold the notion that they are not worthy of their hospitality nor is it valid to believe they would never understand the concept.
@ Abdulrahman A. Al-Zuhayyan
That’s not the wisest thing to say .. who is say who deserves what? So slum people are not deserving of respect? i try to be calm and dismiss such attitudes. but cannot at this instance. that is a rude and illmannered thing to say and if my child were to have such an attitude or excuse, i’d have smacked him upside the head — no matter the age and sat on himtill he understood the implication of such words.
Coming back to your theory – I’m a Dr, much much more educated than many saudi’s i came across, cultured, don’t expose anything , respect saudi culture ( after all married to a saudi) , mother of 2. and usually not considered provocative by actionor words and oh i forget definetly NOT POOR and slummy. so why was i treated like crap? why was it assumed that i wa a maid ? and why when i suddenly produced my american passport was i worthy of good behavior..
remember every human is the same.. same flesh, same blood, will bleed when cut and suffer pain andeventually die.. sorry for the rant carol, it’s one thing to accept discrimination and another to justify it saying the victims are deserving of it…
Bedu,
I just thought of another difference between Saudis and Americans…
I love the way Saudis greet the elderly here with a kiss on the forehead and maybe even the hand. I love this show of respect and have never ever seen any American do this.
Anebu,
You hold a genuine gentile soul, and those Hindus don’t have it, so they would continue to take advantage of it and mock you in private.
radha,
Whether you hold a respected American passport rather than a worthless Indian passport or hold a HIGHER DEGREE from The Indian Slum State University, the slums lives in your heart and mind over centuries, and Saudis will continue to view you as a thridy indian that like to be white.
Radha, Indians are all over the world working in highly educated jobs. Have you seen the movie ”The fifth element”? I really like it, especially the details of the future world, and guess what? All the bridge officers on the very advanced spaceship were Indians! So funny, and well thought out!
Abdulrahman Al-Z, So what about the very poor Saudis? Who live in tents and shacks,in slums and on the streets, who suffer the heat and cold and have no future? According to you these Saudis are soulless, heartless, worthless and have no ”dignity” and not any proper feelings.
In case you have never seen how poor Saudis live check out this blog:
http://theanotherfaceofsaudiarbai.blogspot.com/
Maybe you will learn in time not to equate poverty with bad and material wealth with good.
PS, I am a blue eyed blonde white skinned Arian so I know better than you being only a coloured Arab.
Afake-Art,
Indians live in a make-believe world created by Bull-S..wood to boost the slum moral of Indians. Yeah, Indians are scientists working in prestigious WHITE institutions; why they don’t work in the slum Indian scientific institutions if they are so good? Indians are employed in the WHITE World as cheap, disposable technicians in semi-tech jobs that real White scientists don’t accept. Talking about funny Indians designing future spaceships, the world will end at their hands.
As the alleged poor Saudis living in tents and shacks, they are not Saudis; they are Thirdies, who flocks our streets and markets, wearing Saudi attire.
P.S
I like the contrast. Arian, blue-eyed, blond, and snow white-skinned; and an Arab, brown eyed, brown-haired, and dark-skinned…Lordy …lordy
@Radha…
“It’s cultural, like i have this funny indian way of noddingmy head side to side and that’s a “YES” or “OK” baffled my patients and co-workers for a while ” Too funny! when I was in India I saw this all the time. Indians are rather subliminal when they talk. they tend not to come out directly and say things, but rather hint at it through gestures and round about ways of saying things. Drove me a little crazy for while…but being a brash American I would ask :Is that a yes or no?” Finally I realized hat action generally means “yes, no problem, it will be done no worries” or anything else along that vein.
also it took me a while to understand that to an Indian or Asian no doesn’t actually mean no. To be polite they have to say no two times and then accept on the third. When I first met my husband that caused some hurt feelings. If I was making something for myself I would ask if he wanted some and he would say no. I replied “are you sure?” to which he said “no no really I am fine.” OK…so I didn’t make him anything and when I got back t the table he had a long face and was hurt. evidently he thought I should keep asking him giving a chance to seem as if he was uninterested and for an American to keep insisting as he wanted me to do feels really pushy and rude. He learned to say yes the first time if he wanted something. And in fact later that caused trouble because I would now insist and he REALLY did mean no. LOL!
@Abdulrahman A. Al-Zuhayyan
You just slay me. I still can’t believe that your racism is for real. But sadly i know it is…I suppose the Pakistani air crash today that took over 100 lives was a good thing. After all it got rid of a lot of “thirdys” in one fell swoop. I am so glad that I met a lot of Muslims before coming across you because if you had been my example of the greatness of Islam I think I would have a horrible opinion of Islam…
BTW I am a tall, blonde, well educated American!
@oby,
Maybe abdulrahman is negative towards “thirdys” just because he loves you (plural). (: and as an educated american, Do you think it is right to judge a flower based on its picker (:
BTW, I am a simple Saudi!
You really slay me hard OBY,
I accidently come across this blog to realize that it was primarily developed to remedy expatriates’ psychological stresses by bashing Saudis, specifically Hindus who are most sickened. I am only trying to bring those people to their senses, and obviously I am an unwanted intruder because everyone here condones their despicable comments about Saudis and attack me for stating the facts.
I never done or said anything that indicates that I am a racist, and I wonder why you and others call me that, is it because that I am a Saudi? You have to look into the Hindus sick comments for racism, unless they are your partners in crime.
Again Thirdy is a state of mind and a way of thinking, and it is unfortunate that many Pakistani Muslims and Hindus do have Thirdy states. However, my heart goes out for the families of the Pakistanis that were killed in the airplane crash, after all, they are human beings.
I can be a real, good friend to everybody, including tall, blond, well-educated American woman, I don’t have anything against Americans. I wonder why cannot both of us just be good friends? Unless you hold some grudges toward Saudis!!!!
People!!! Stop with the nonsense already. This character has showed up on the blog already. Why do you argue with crazy? We already decided not to feed the troll. What do you hope to accomplish with these debates? Do you not see you are being baited. So grow up and DO NOT FEED THE TROLL DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.
OBY,
You really talk sense unlike the others in here that I don’t want to give them the honor by responding to their stupid remarks. I just hope they are not real Americans.
Do you live in Saudi Arabia, OBY?
second that:
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!!!!
I just hope that those retards that give America a bad name by showing their sheer stupidity and street corners-manners stop their ill behaviors and try to carry an intelligence conversation that show the substance of America.
OBY,
Mississippi Masala is a movie that shows the long-lasting Hindu racism. May be one evening you would rent a video and examine it very carefully for the settled racism in the Hindu communities in the US.
May be you would discover that I am not a racist and I know what I am taking about. The movie is directed by an Indian woman.
@Medina…
“Do you think it is right to judge a flower based on its picker (:”
Of course not. That is why I am glad he is not my first impression of Islam. Because he certainly does not display the tolerant and accepting nature that supposedly Islam should exhibit. Of course, I am not Muslim, but this is my understanding of it. Obviously, not practiced here as it should be.
@ Abdulrahman…
I have seen the movie. For me racism is racism whether it is exhibited by a Hindu toward a black person as in Mississippi Masala, or a white toward any number of races or an Arab Muslim such as yourself against Hindus…it is all the same and motivated by the same thing…the idea that a particular race (usually the one of the racist) is better than that of another. Perhaps in this case for you it is religion…as you seem to grant Pakistanis some dispensation and only 50+ years ago they were all Indians. There were no Pakistanis. the only difference here is religion. The fact that you brush every Hindu with the same brush even those who are well educated is telling in that for you the fact that they are Hindu makes them somehow lesser. their religion is the deciding factor alone.
You are impressed with American heath care and education but what you might not know is that all medical doctors who come from India and do their continued studies here in the USA MUST take a battery of exams, the same ones American students must take, in order to be accepted into a residency here in the USA. So while you denigrate the Indian education system, the USA has tested them ON PAR with their American counterparts and they are fully capable of not only passing those exams but in many cases exceeding the scores of native Americans.
But for me your attitude toward Hindus is no different than if I thought all Muslims were murdering animals because of 9/11. If one is Muslim then quite obviously they MUST be a terrorist and an enemy of the USA. Even the ones the USA has been kind enough to allow to enter the country. They are all sneaky and plotting terrorism.
Is it at all possible that all Muslims might not be like that? And if that is a possibility then the whole “Hindus, Muslims, …fill in the blank for the victim du jour argument can’t hold water.
I very happily live in the USA where I am grateful to have laws that grant me equal protections and free choices that I couldn’t possibly imagine if I were in KSA. And no, I don’t have anything against Saudis…only governments who don’t give 50% of their population (women) equal representation under the law. but that is MY prejudice toward equal rights…
@ oby,
You must be a Hindu pretending to be tall, blond, well-educated American woman (White woman) for obvious reasons, because you did not accuse Hindus of being racists.
Do you know how most Indian medical doctors get their residency; it is under the supervision of another Indian doctor that arrived at the US earlier and import Indians and facilitate residency for his kin. I refer you to 60 minutes news show. This is a contemptible Mafia business.
The real medical doctors are Saudis that work in the best US medical institutions, and surely are not Hindus that work in the remotest corners of Mississippi and Alabama and look down on White and Black folks.
I knew that your comment about the Pakistani airline crash is a trap to see whether or not I would look at the Pakistani Muslims as the same way as non-Muslim Hindus. Nothing in my replay points that a put Pakistanis on a different level.
You are an alleged tall, blonde, well-educated American woman sitting in an office working on fighting terrorism, with a strong conventions that Hindus love for the US is not as Muslims and for this reason you are totally willingly succumb to them of admiration and ignore their sickening behaviors. May be they are working with in the next office.
I don’t need your understandings of Islamic tolerance and acceptance. I know Islam and what it stands for and I am writing on tolerance and civil societies. You should exercise tolerance and acceptance by looking at what Hindus are saying about Islam, Saudi Arabia, and Saudis. No decent person would condone that, at least those professionals working in fighting terrorism and need to have accurate assessment of any situation of such importance.
I should have known that I should not take an alleged tall, blonde, well-educated American woman so seriously. That is why the US is failing at every front, because of the too smart consultations you are getting from your Hindu advisors. You just don’t know how to do it, and every one is using you to their interests from Hindu advisors to the Iraqi Ahmed Shalabi who got you in the Iraqi quagmire because you believed everything he said because he is according to the US standards is too smart (graduate of University of Chicago), shaven-faced, and light-skinned.
All the best blondie,
Abdulrahman
So I started reading this post looking for some insights as to different cultural trends or attitudes that may influence why Americans and Saudis may not see things the same way. (I took a class describing a similar concept right before I went to France for school and found it amazingly helpful). Unfortunately, while it may have started that way, all I see now are a bunch of (perhaps well-meaning) people calling each other names.
Can’t we avoid saying things like ALL Saudis, and ALL Americans, and ALL Hindus and replace them with “it seems to me” and “in my experience” or even some statistics? This should be a discussion bent towards learning, people! Not towards seeing who gets the last word
(I apologize, Bedu, if my comments are perceived to be off-topic or out of line. I greatly appreciate the insights I have gained thus far partly thanks to your blog and hate to see the unproductive battles that have gone on in some of your posts) Best wishes.
Azur eyes, I think your comment is very much on topic.
We should all avoid to FEED THE TROLL!
DON’T FEED THE TROLLS!
@ oby,
“tall blond educated american”, Unfortunately, you missed my point and you contradicted yourself in one sentence dear, (: .
here it is,
“Do you think it is right to judge a flower based on its picker (: ”
your reply, “Of course not. That is why I am glad he is not my first impression of Islam.”
That is, your impression towards a book is based on its holder. (:
Salam to you , educated american (:
I’ve been unable to comment for a few days due to events going on in my life. Now I’m going to do some straight talking.
I am very disappointed in the tone and direction comments have taken from multiple individuals who are educated and know how to use words. However the words they have chosen are not promoting understanding and tolerance. Instead they are baited as if wanting to create strife, disagreement and antagonism.
I’ve always leaned on the ‘easy’ side and rarely moderated comments towards wanting all views to be expressed. I hope I do not need to start that.
If you want to create strife or argue, go to the debate page. That what it is there for. If you do not want to focus on Saudi issues, go to another blog. This is a blog towards understanding Saudi Arabia. We may not always agree when discussing various aspects of Saudi culture, customs and traditions but do it in a civilized manner.
I’ve had enough of irrelevant comments and off-topic comments. Cool it. If you don’t like it, go to another blog or create your own. Enough. Halas. Finito.
Carol
@oby,
you bring back memories of the dreaded USMLE
and the even more terrifying residency years …
as for the troll — have a nice day
Carol…
My apologies for losing my temper on your blog.
to be honest, I have no idea what Medina meant, although I thought I did. and I can’t stomach Abdulrahman’s horrible racism. I generally don’t talk in such a strong manner but the way he is speaking about Hindus is horrible. But he could be saying the same thing about Buddhists or Latter Day Saints or any other religion for that matter. It is absolutely deplorable that one human being should hold others in such contempt…people he doesn’t know for no reason other than a faith they hold.
For the record in case I was misunderstood in any way…
I DON’T think that all Muslims are murderers or sneaky or planning terrorism. I was only trying to give Abdul a taste of what his words sound like and how ridiculous it is to judge an entire people based on beliefs or something that one might find distasteful or that a few did. I am however, astounded that someone who supposedly is Muslim could be so hateful in his judgement of people when his own holy book says he is not to do so. THAT is what I thought the essence of Islam is and what I was trying to say to him and to a lesser degree Medina. That is why I said I am glad that Abdul is not my first experience with Muslims, because if I did not know better I would not think much of the faith judging by the way he talks about others.
so my apologies to you Carol…I do think that the blog is wonderful open spot where we can all comment and I would not like to see it closed. I rarely lose my temper and I am done trying to reason with a person who is unreasonable.
Thank you, Oby!
@ Carol,
LOL@ Halas. you just reminded me of one of my sisters when she is fed up with something. it is her favourite scream “K”halaaaaaaaaas hehehe
I like to tease contradictions sometimes because it adds a sort of salt that has a special taste to the meal that you provide and it makes it more delicious and oby is my favourite one here hehehe. You know that teasing is taken in a sense of humour not for hatred in Saudi culture o_O. I do not take things personally and very seriously here. And sense of humour should not be interpreted by any means as hatred, intolerance (I think you still remember your words about Iman’s interview regarding “bashing” (: ). I also believe in physics, especially Newton’s three physical laws regarding “the mutual forces of action and reaction between two bodies” . so, regardless of the content of abduraham’s posts, he is still a mere reaction A to the action B in equal in its strength and direction. so, we should give Newton a credit here (: . By the way, I think you know how expelling guests is perceived in the Saudi culture. So, I do not think you mean it o_O. otherwise we will lose oby’s contributions here hehehe (teasing).
salamlam
@Medina,
Thanks! I guess I became even more Saudized than I was aware for like your sister, I also tended to do the same whenever anything became too intense with kids or others while in Saudi! (blush)
Medina, how is it percieved? Expelling guests?
What if they are very bad behaving guests?
Although the question was asked to Medina, I’d like to answer too…
My dear husband always told me that no matter how long a guest may choose to stay (yes, the guest will choose) we will always smile and offer our best hospitality and even more so, when it is family. Even if a guest or guests have had a lengthy stay, we will insist for them to stay even longer.
Was this the same in your family, Medina?
Yeah, but what would happen if you said ”time to go now” ????
@aafk,
In the past, In Saudi, when guests come to your home for a purpose such as marriage proposal, seeking help, stay, etc. guests must never be asked about the purpose of their visit for three days. So, they stay at your home and you provide them with all their needs during these three days. After three days, the host can ask his guests about their enquiries, otherwise, it will be considered a shame that the host is asking his/her guests about the purpose of their visit. Usually, guests should behave very well with other guests coming at the same time from other group. For example, if one of these guests point finger to another guest for insult or verbal attack or is rude to other guests at the host’s house, there are two options. If the guest has been insulted, it is perceived as a shame to the host that one of his guests has been mistreated at his home, so the host will be responsible and he/she must take action against the verbal attacker like expel or to force him to apologize. But if the host is facilitating these verbal attacks against his guests, it is one of the shameful things that people can imagine a host can do to his guests. And usually, such a host will be labelled and will be called names because he/she betrays his/her guests’ trust. And usually, the immediate action that the mistreated guest will is to leave the house and ask prominent people to take his rights from his host. And usually they make a tribal trial to the host. One of the punishments is that the host will never be allowed light a fire (symbol of hospitality at home) and will be forced not to welcome any guest at his house for a period of time.
These social norms of the past are still active in people minds even if they do not practice them in actions but it is still remain moral beliefs and attitudes guiding their behaviours.
In blog sphere, who is going to take my rights or your rights if we have been mistreated, of course no one because the blog owner does not have a power to the rights, so everyone is taking his rights by his/her keyboard hehehe. But the blame will still be directed to the blog owner o_O .
@AB,
Yes of course it is the same, I used to have my classmates at home for a month.