According to Joan Smith who wrote an opinion piece in The Independent, a woman covering her face in this day and time is a preposterous notion. I somehow doubt that she has ever been to Saudi Arabia. She believes that covering the face is a political or ideological statement rather than a choice. She tends to disregard that a woman may cover her face due to religious beliefs, privacy or cultural beliefs.
My question is why so much ado is made of the woman who for whatever reason veils whether it is a niqab where one can only see her eyes or a complete veil over the face? I know that some Catholic nuns continue to cover their hair and you don’t hear a lot of controversy about that. And when is a Jewish male ever challenged for wearing a yarmulke or kippa? Amish women also wear their own style of headdress in America and that is rarely challenged as inappropriate.
How can one carelessly assume that a covered woman is repressed? With the world growing smaller and those who follow Islam increase, it is natural to see more women who cover their head and face. So is it perhaps an underlying fear of Islam that evokes such strong reaction to a veiled or niqab covered woman?
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You are making an odd comparison. You are comparing people who do have choices (and the Jewish Kippah doesn’t really cover much at all) with women from a society that imposes an almost absolute uniformity on appearance. Given the nature of their education and socialization I am sure many Saudi women would still choose some kind of head covering. Still that doesn’t stop it from being oppressive.
Saudi women’s dress makes much that we in the West enjoy impossible. Can a Saudi women go birding in nature? My wife and I do that all the time. I cannot imaging that working in KSA. I am sure other readers can think of examples. There is no way you can be a safe driver with the complete head covering. It is hardly a surprising that when Catholic religious women moved out to the US suburbs and had to drive the head coverings began to modernize. The entire get up is designed to make it impossible to do things outside the home. If that isn’t oppression than what is?
Jerry is right. How can you say ”free will’ in a place like Saudi Arabia?
Where you get harrassed at all times and even with total neurotic covering?
How can you even begin to imagine ”free will” ‘there?
And I absolutely believe that women who ”veil” in the West where they stand out like a sore thumb and scare little kids into having nightmares defenitley have at least a partial political statement to make.
Not to mention the comfortable feeling that they are suffering for Allah, and getting extra Jannah-points and are soooo much better as women who do not veil..
This whole veiling thing has one purpose, and one purpose only: to make sure women are shackled. Not only by society, by unequal rules and laws, by constant harrassment, by cnstantely being put down, but even by being forced into restrictive coverings.
There is smething mnore about veiling, it giives an unconsious message: ”women are disgsuting, women are the root of evil, women are ”untouchable’, etc” That has a psicological effect. On the men it makes clear that women are inferior, and on the women it makes clear to them that they are subhuman, to low and disgusting and evil to be allowed to walk the world free and proud with their head in the wind.
Veiling is insane and has not really anything to do with culture either. unless it’s the culture of forever enslaving and brainwashing women.
Only patriarcjhal repressive limited freedom religions insist on ”covering”. And the more evil and restrictive and unfair: the more covering is required.
In Saudi Arabia covering is taken to an insane extreme level;. guess where that puts Saudi Arabia????
Probably because I cant remember the last time nuns were beaten or killed for not wearing their coverings…maybe they are but i dont hear about it.
The amish pretty much stick to themselves so no big newspaper headlines about fathers killing their daughters for not wearing it…no brothers killing sisters for not wearing it etc
Those in the west find it a big deal because they cant fathom being beaten or killed for NOT wearing a piece of cloth on your head or face…
Soon as nuns and amish women start makin headlines for increasing deaths due to lack of headgear…those in the west might start looking at those practices as oppressive and demeaning as well.
Just my thoughts.
I do not veil and never will. However, I am quite used to seeing Muslim women who veil not because there is any law in my country about veiling, but because they sincerely believe it is the right thing to do. Hence, I have grown up accepting te veil as normal for Muslim women.
Here the imporant point to be noted is that these woemn are not required by law to veil, they have the choice to stop veiling if they want and there are also lots of Muslim women in my country who do not veil because they don’t want to.
There are also certain regions in my country where veiling is not a practice by tradition, not under the influence of modernity – these Muslim women wear just the same type of dresses as other women do in their region and there is no tradition of veiling in these regions.
So, I am comfortable seeing Muslim women not veiling as well. This is simply not an issue for me. It’s their choice – they can veil if they want, they may not veil if they don’t want. Others shouldn’t pass judgments on them as long as it is not imposed by law.
In case of Saudi Arabia, this practice is problematic because it has been strictly imposed by law and women get severely punished if they don’t follow this rule. Moreover, Saudi Arabia expects even foreign women to practice veiling, which is completely wrong.
I am against this strict imposition of veiling, not against veiling itself if it is done by choice or tradition.
I feel Saudi Arabia should not have this law about veiling. Those women who want to veil by choice, will do so anyway, even if there is no law about it. Those who do not want to veil, will have the choice not to do so. At the same time, foreign women will not have to forcibly adopt the veil while in Saudi Arabia.
Ms. Smith is not alone. The Egyptian court has banned the niqab during exams ; Shaaz Mahboob, vice-chair of British Muslims for Secular Democracy, believes the niqaab does not belong in a Western society ; and when communication is 20% verbal and 80% non-verbal, I really like to see a face as part of the message. I can see how a niqaab is a problem for people in charge of any kind of security.
Also, each country has its own religious expressions (Is it Tunisia where women are not permitted to veil and where Ramadan is against the economy?) Are muslimas who where niqaab per definition more pious than those who don’t/can’t? I don’t think so.
Unfortunately, religion has long been used as pretext to subordinate women, be it in the West or the East.
Do look here: (al Jazeera’s Everywoman on the veil)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlkaX4csHyM
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35cD16_AQAU&feature=channel
Do listen to Nora!
enjoy,
margaret
I’m glad this topic has come up with all that France is doing to make wearing the burqa illegal. If women choose to wear it and are doing so because it is what they want to wear and not because it is forced on them, why is it anyone else’s business? That’s like telling me I can’t wear brown eyeliner because it might offend someone who doesn’t believe in wearing makeup or I can’t wear my wedding band because it represents a set of wedding vows that maybe someone else wouldn’t commit to…it’s just nobody’s business. I agree with Daisy, there shouldn’t necessarily be a law about veiling either way. Thanks for this topic
We have Islam thrust upon us. We don’t have a choice. if i don’t cover my hair, i can be taken to jail. That’s not really Islam, is it?
I’d love to believe that I was born into Islam, that Islam still truly exists where I was born, but it doesn’t. Many people here (and i don’t mean to generalize) would like to believe that they are Muslim because they truly believe in their religion and in Allah, but they fail to answer the simplest questions regarding their faith. Once their faith is tested they’re lost.
Covering hair and face here is often done for the wrong reasons. I’m not saying everyone is confusing religion with tradition, many are wonderful Muslims but many don’t understand the first thing about this religion. The majority never had a choice and is unfamiliar with the ability to choose. they honestly believe that God is going to throw half the globe’s population into the inferno. In my honest opinion, that’s not much of a choice.
again, i don’t mean to generalize…
I guess the previous commenters said it all. It is a choice, under Islamic law it should be a choice. In Saudi the religion has been twisted, bent and broken to be something it isnt all to support and prop up insance and unfair tribal and cultural norms.
It is not Islam. Let people do what they want, cover their face, wear swim suits, or nothing at all for that matter.
“You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that’s clear
I will choose freewill.”
Rush
I think it is important, at times, to remember that we are born naked and that everything else is extra. For us in Northern countries it is usually impossible to get along without a lot of clothing. Stll, the idea that our natural body is sinful says a lot of how unnatural religion is. We are naked apes. Our bodies by themselves aren’t disgusting or ‘red meat’ by themselves. Immodesty is in the mind of the beholder.
The concept of freedom of choice in matter of sin is not part of Islam. According to the sahih hadith
“When any one of you sees anything that is disapproved (of by Allah), let him change it with his hand. If he is not able to do so, then let him change it with his tongue. And if he is not able to do so, then let him change it with his heart, though that is the weakest (kind of) faith.”
So if a Muslim feels that uncovering is a sin he is expected to change it. The ones with strong faith are supposed to change it with their hand (i.e. physical force). The Saudi’s are only acting in the way the prophet instructed them. Interfering in others business is a duty for Muslims.
We can argue the point of whether uncovering is a sin or not. The problem is if there is a large percentage of Muslims that believe it is a sin and within that there are some that feel empowered to act physically against it (based on the hadith). A good example of this is the splashing of acid on uncovered girls.
Let’s just hope the rest of the Muslims continue to have less faith than what is common in Saudi and some groups outside.
“And I absolutely believe that women who ”veil” in the West where they stand out like a sore thumb and scare little kids into having nightmares defenitley have at least a partial political statement to make.”
I’m against the Hijab, and all forms of cover. I will not impose my thoughts against other people, my mother for one chooses to wear the whole Islamic get-up. I assure you she has no political statement to make, she genuinely feels comfortable being covered because it reaffirms her faith. Oh, and kids love my mom.
In regards to the post, I don’t agree with the notion that women have free will in Saudi Arabia. Granted, they cover because the society that they live in is quite confined and that gives them an odd sense of security behind that black cloak, but what about the women that choose to defy those social boundaries? They do not have the option to take off the cover. While in America, where freedom is truly respected, women have a choice between the two.
Sorry for double posting.
coolred38, can you point me in the right direction where I can read up more about women that were killed over not wearing the hijab, other than the tragic incident that happened in Canada during ’07. You make it seem like it’s a normal thing in that part of the world, and you could be right. I could very well be ignorant about the huge number of Muslim women “makin headlines for increasing deaths due to lack of headgear”.
yes it’s preposterous and no it’s not a fear of islam. it’s a normal reluctance on some of our parts to believe that questioning how GOD made us isn’t complete arrogance. who are people to say that, yes, God made us beautiful and naked, so lets cover it all up and make it ugly. it’s not privacy, it’s brainwashing and habits forced upon girls when they’re too young and inexperienced to know better.
@ MoQ
The concept of freedom of choice is straight out of the Qur’an. “There is no compulsion in religion”
When a hadith like the following
“When any one of you sees anything that is disapproved (of by Allah), let him change it with his hand. If he is not able to do so, then let him change it with his tongue. And if he is not able to do so, then let him change it with his heart, though that is the weakest (kind of) faith.”
Is interpreted and used to overule Qur’an that is not right. I think that is one of the most abused hadith of all time. Everyone who thinks they “know” what is right and wrong feels obliged to get in eveyone’s business, sometimes to the point of oppression- or criminal assault as in your acid example. Just because their are a bunch of thuggish criminals doesn’t mean they should determine what others do.
I think any country is well within their rights to ban a face veil. Simply for security, identity theft issues- which by the way happens alot in Saudi. Covering the hair? People wear hats don’t they? When you start trying to legislate what kind of hat? For what reason? it get’s plain silly.
Hi Carol, I love your blog. You are doing sooo much to promote understanding between cultures. I have only encounted a niqab once but it completely unsettled me. Every nerve in my body said danger because I didn’t know who really was under there. If I can speak for others in the West, it made me realize how much we rely on people’s facial expressions and body language when we relate to each other. I was helping a small 10-year-old girl decked out in a niqab and we started a spirited discussion/celebration of a book. Not being able to see her face made me so uncomfortable, I asked if she could lift her veil. Out popped the most beautiful, innocent smile! I just shook my head that someone went out of their way to tell this young lady that her face and smile needed to be covered as if there was something wrong with it. 10 years old! I will never understand this.
Andrea and Jerry, I agree. If God wanted us to be covered we would be born with fur.
As it is I can only conclude we are meant to walk around as God made us: naked!
Unfortunately given the -10C temperatures here right now I choose to cover up.
As Saudi Arabia is forcing it’s extreme covering onto all women, I don’t see why other countries cannot express their desire that people at least show their faces. It is a deeply ingrained feeling in western culture (yes, western countries have cultures too!) that people who do not show their face plotting evil, dark deeds.
It is no coincidence that in western art, proze and movies ”The Evil Ones” are depicted exactely the same.
Besides the veiling of women equates suppression in the eyes of most people in the west and the more I learn about Islam and the way women are treated in Islamic countries the more I have to agree with that.
I think muslims should have more respect for western culture and stop forcing theirs down our throat.
About nuns, the concept of the convent is midieval. Nuns and monks are people who devote their whole lives, every part of their life to god. It is the concept of non-individuality, a completely off-the-world life. Completely secluded. And only a very small percentage is capable of living such a life. They often had to break off all contact with family and friends, they would never have children. Some convents did not even allow speech. Their names were changed, they were moulded into robots. The human becomes a non-entity. Uniformity of dress supports this.
The veil they wear (roman custom)(dont forget: the Roman Catholic church) is part of this: a nun is not to be regarded as a human being, an individual. She is a mere number, a servant of god.
And if a nun cannot live with this anymore, she can opt out. It is difficult, but it is possible.
Actually, I see a lot of simularity with women in Islam, they are to be secluded, they are made to be non-entities. They are made into a mere number. (Polygamy) They even are to be called Umm-so-and-so. not their own name. To deny a human being their own name equates taking away their personality.
The difference of course is that they can’t opt out.
And yes: women have been killed for not wearing hijab. It happened in England too. ASnd forget about the reason; the mere fact that the muslim community take ”honour” killing so easily and don’t consider it as the heinous crime it is, is another proof about the less than human position of women. And the wish to re-enforce it with brute violence and murder proves the sick mindset.
And the veil is the supreme symbol of all this evil.
It amazes me Aafke that for someone who is so well read about “Islam” and Saudi that you still have not realised in the many years you’ve been interested that Saudi doesn’t set the benchmark for Islam. But perhaps it’s just something you choose to miss.
Interesting.
Jerry M- in your first comment you talk about things a westerner would find normal, why do you make the assumption that a Muslim women would want to be doing those things? Why is about you and what you deem normal? Do you set the benchmark for the world on what is acceptable and what isn’t?
There is so much bleating about freedom of choice here yet that freedom of choice is only ok if the Muslim women chooses what you in the West deems as OK. What you deem is not must be some crazy arab man with a knife at her throat. Here’s a crazy idea to take away, Not ALL Muslims are Arabs. Insane!!! isn’t it?
Essentially what France and people who think that a law should be passed to ban the niqab, is the same as what you supposedly fighting against. Someone telling Muslim women what to do, how to dress, how to think, how to act, what to enjoy. So you are exactly like the oppressor you so desperately want to save us from.
Again very interesting.
The minute you come across an educated women who stand her ground and tells you this is what I choose you placate us with ohhh, you just one of the lucky one’s, consider yourself lucky.
Maybe for a few minutes you want to consider that maybe you have it all wrong, that maybe the majority of Muslim Women are educated, know who they are, what they want and make their own life choices. Oh for the heck of it try and just for a second take a leap of faith and get outside your very tiny box and think about it, go slow here now, I know this is difficult, that there are some women, Muslim, practicing Muslim women, hijab and all. ( are you breathing still?) work, have jobs, have loving husbands who dont bash them and beat them up who have kids that are educated, that play sport, that go out on weekends to picnics and even to the beach and have friends from different religions and different cultures who lead the life of a women who lives in the West.
Ok I know, too much for you to handle because you can’t get past your narrow mindedness or your bigotted soul or your hate for Saudi which keeps blinding you about Islam.
Maybe every now and then you want to step outside of it all and maybe try on a new perspective, you might even like some of us, I know! shock horror.
It’s a long post of Bedu. I apologise but you know Im a young Muslim Women and I think I’m pretty awesome. I reckon Im as normal as anyone else and the piece of cloth covering me doesn’t take away from my awesomeness ( i know, modesty is not realy my forte).
But…
Everytime you pick on Muslim women, you pick on me, everytime you bash our integrity to shreds, it’s my integrity you bashing, everytime you put me in some box because YOU make assumptions, that’s me you boxing in.
Sometimes it’s ok, I can laugh it off, sometimes I can pretend I didnt read it, hear it, see it
but sometimes
YOU BREAK MY SPIRIT!
the funny thing is, I go back to Islam then to find my peace and gain my strength to come back.
Ironic huh?
We also believe in human rights and rights for women and children and humanity. I know it surprises you and I know you can’t see it because it’s so much easier to box me in.
Shame on every Oppressor! Don’t try and save me just to put me in your cage.
Preposterous
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin praeposterus, literally, in the wrong order, from prae- + posterus hinder, following — more at posterior
Date: 1542
: contrary to nature, reason, or common sense : absurd
I guess I’d have to say yes, yes it IS preposterous. We won’t even mention the arrogance that it takes to think that you are so beautiful that you need to cover your face to prevent fitna!
@Shameena ‘Don’t try and save me just to put me in your cage.’
That sounds suspiciously like the reason for the veil isn’t it? Instead of making the men around you human beings with the ability to control themselves (as has been proven all over the world) they just put the woman in the cage and put the onus on HER to not tempt him. What is it about the muslim man that he needs the woman to protect him?
Wooo, the niqab still seems to be a hot topic on this blog. Covering the face can come in handy here in Saudi Arabia at certain times…especially after a wedding, or leaving a restaurant late at night.
Men in the west may think the same way as men in Saudi Arabia, (about women), but they do not make it so obvious as to make a woman uncomfortable as she walks by. For women here, they have the added protection of the scarf to use whenever necessary. And, some, like to wear it all the time. Se’ la vi.
@ RoseColoredGlasses,
Ever heard the chant “get your kit off for the lads”!?
Goes something like this:
Get your kit off, get your kit off, get your kit off for the lads!
Get your kit off for the lads.
Sung to the same tune chritstians sing to the hymn ( forgot the title of it sorry)
“bread of heaven, bread of heaven, feed me til i want no more”!
just a thought that came to my head when I read your statement:
“Men in the west may think the same way as men in Saudi Arabia, (about women), but they do not make it so obvious as to make a woman uncomfortable as she walks by.”
Not challenging you, but I used to hear that regularly on any given thur/ fri/ sat night out from groups of leery young men drunk and acting stupid. The girls they were singing that to did not seem all that happy to me. Just a thought.
Western women or even non-saudis are not required to veil themselves in Saudi as being stated by many. Yes, they are required to wear an abaya & hijab but not the veil. But if anyone in Saudi can say that the most non-muslims just wear an wear a loose open abaya, usually shorter & the hijab also doesn’t cover their hair completely. When even muslims from other countries are not told to veil, what r the chances non-muslims are. btw I am talking abt the veil – niqab.
Whereas Saudis are under more pressure to veil culturally rather by law.
Saudi Arabia is ruled by sharia even if it’s flawed in some aspects. Sharia doesn’t give one the permission to openly commit sins. While there is difference of opinion on the niqab, there’s ijma on head covering & wearing loose-non transparent clothing. When it’s come obligatory acts there’s no choice. Next some of you would be claiming that adultery, pre-marital sex is a choice and no one should be held accountable for that. When one of the tribes refused to pay zakat to Abu Bakr (ra), what did he do? Did he say they have a choice or did he wage war on them?
As a non Muslim, I look around and see a lot of variety in the way women approach the issue of covering. Some not at all and others so totally that one cannot see an inch of skin. This says to me one of two things…either there is a lot of choice within the religion about the degree of covering or there is a lot of confusion about to what extent one must cover. Having read for awhile, my personal impression is that there is a lot of confusion. Some argue it must be total oblieration and others on the opposite end of the spectrum say no covering is required. The way I understood it was one must cover and dress modestly from the chest to the knees and one is allowed to wear a swimsuit if one is to go swimming. I have the sense as an outsider that it is asking women to do it in moderation.
What I find concerning is even if it is a “choice” and the woman lives in a country where there is the choice it feels like the pendulum is swinging more and more to the very conservative side and with that the idea a woman’s piety is directly related to the amount she covers and IMO obliterates her identity. In these cases, even in “free choice” countries it really is no longer a free choice due to the peer pressure women are likely to feel. No one wants to be seen as unpious, ridiculed or “left out”. So my concern is, a perfectly wonderful Muslim woman very pious and loving toward Allah will change her original behavior/desire and more than that will have to find a way to justify it to herself in order to make it acceptable to herself so she can live with the choice.
These total coverings, face included, make sense if looked at in the context of geography. They were worn during the heavy sandstorms of the desert and were necessary for survival…kept one from eating too much sand or having their skin sandblasted. But that CULTURAL practice has no place IMO in modern society unless one lives in that environment. Even Mohammed’s wives did not cover so completely. If it was good enough for the Prophet’s wives why is any MORE expected from today’s women?
As for KSA, obviously the women have little choice. I suppose they could cover their eyes if they choose with little problems legally, but I can’t help wonder if the women had a choice….really had a choice and could take them off without fear of strikeback would they?
the part about women must cover to keep men from having sexual thoughts cuz they cant control themselves has no logic at all and silly, but thats how they think…How does it feel to have your face covered. how does it feel when its 120 degrees outside, how does it feel when your husband has a fit if your not covered, how does it feel when society looks down on you if your not covered. how does it feel to think allah looks down on you if your not covered…how does it feel to go to jail if your not covered.. i dunno…….
Aafke…
As for honor killings is there any instance where a man does something to dishonor his family and can face an “honor killing” without reprisal from the family as it happens to women?
It is immaterial to ask if women have free will in veiling or not.
How can you even suggest free will for women in saudi? They do anything they can to destroy free will. And women can have only those freedoms which their male guardians allow them.
Women are brainwashed from birth that their bodies and faces are a shame to their family. How then can a woman choose?
Women are harrassed all the time, even when fully veiled. I have never know harrassment like what happens in saudi!
Imagine the abuse a woman could face when not wearing veil and hijab? She is chased by boys in cars who make a scene as if she is whoring.
How can there be a free choice here?
|IN the Islamic world women are locked up, beaten killed or have acid thrown in their face if men think she is not covered enough!
@ Aafke You are right. It is high tie the west stops catering to silly rules of religions. Religions should be private and keep off describing to others what they should do wear or anything!
In Sweden muslim men rape Swedish women and then claim they could not resist because they were not covered enough. Now some stupid Swedish officials say that Swedish women have to dress more conservativly to avoid being raped?????
We in Sweden go to the sauna, mixed company and no women get raped!
This obsession with covering women only causes more men to go berserk.
@ MoQ, I agree. The hadith you quoted is the reason for the CPPV. It is their mandate and the claim for them to have the right to harass all women and chase people to their deaths. To imprison and torture old women who get bread deliverd by their nephews.
And Islam is what men claim who kill their female relatives for not wearing hijab, or talking to some boy, or having a cellphone. Ity is the muslim community who will not speak out aginst these crimes.
The muslim community does not care about Swedish women being raped by muslim men. The muslim community enforces women to cover their heads and faces.
It used to be rare to see women wear niqaab even in saudi thirty years ago. Expats did not have to wear the abaya. Things are changing for the worse. I don’t see much improvement for women, only more supression.
And certainly no freedom of choice!
Oby, have you ever heard of one such case?
Wouldn’t it be brilliant if women could kill their male family members for not following their interpretation of Islam?
Aafke…
I never have heard of any case-ever. I was wondering if “honor killing” is supposedly OK could it in theory apply to everyone? So it is basically sanctioned murder.
@Sandy,
The “No compulsion in religion” verse is actually the most abused verse in Islam. It has become the standard verse to quote as a defense of every issue in Islam. The fact is the verse is usually quoted partially (just like in your case). When the verse is quoted fully you will get the full meaning, which is the usual interpretation by scholars. Hence, the verse is interpreted to mean that you cannot change what is in people’s heart, but does not provide guidance on how they should act in the exterior. You have to find how Islam deals with the later subject in other places in Quran and hadith. Additionally, the next verse, after the partial one you are referring to, does the usual promise of hell fire for non believers. Not quite the peaceful reference you are hoping for. Please look it up, it is important that you understand what you are referencing.
Additionally, you also ignore the fact that the Quran is a weak and complete reference on behavior and law. Hadith is supposed to fill that gap. You cannot avoid dealing with the issues of Hadith, unless you change agreed upon principals of the religion.
I do think most Muslims are not following the hadith I stated earlier to its highest level of physical interference. The issue is the more religious Muslims get, the more you see this type of interference occurring. This is not just in Saudi, the incidents are increasing across the Islamic world including places like Pakistan, Iraq, Egypt, Gaza, and even Indonesia. Women are finding it harder and harder to make a choice.
The reason is pro-niqab is bcoz of my wife. Most women in my family don’t wear niqaab (once in a while they do, if they don’t think they r in a safe place, not from PVPV but if it’s a shady area with shady ppl living there).
Where as my wife wears niqaab & she’s not even from Saudi. She’s a Bahraini, when i got married I asked her not to wear the niqaab & we don’t have a very strict segregation system when it comes to family members mainly due to lot of inter-racial & cross-country marriages. She did oblige in the beginning but then she told me she can’t do it any more as she views niqaab as fard & not just mustahab and she’s not comfortable being without her niqaab. Her sisters also don’t wear niqaab in Bahrain so it’s fair to say that she’s the odd one out. If one chooses to wear it or not, it doens’t matter to me but I will do whatever it takes to make sure my wife has the right to practise Islam to the fullest.
Oby, as far as I know it’s only women who are killed by male relatives. and on the most silly spurious pretexts.
And yes it’s murder.
But only of women so it’s not a big deal.
@shameema
“Do you set the benchmark for the world on what is acceptable and what isn’t?”
No I don’t set the benchmark for the world, but we all start with our own perceptions.
I cannot speak about the French, but in the US there is no movement to ban covering for Muslim women. We wear clothing that restricts us to some extant. I would hardly go running the a business suit. As a man, even in Saudi Arabia, I would be allowed a wide range of dress outside the house. With women it is different. They must be covered.
The assumptions about human nature that are behind Saudi customs are absurd.
MoQ, I always come up with this verse too. You make me think and I will look it up.
@ Aafke and Sandy: here are the verses in full
2:256: “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.”
2:257: “Allah is the protecting guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are the rightful owners of the Fire [of Hell]. They will abide therein [forever].”
not peaceful is it?
The extremists and terrorrists are not just acting crazy. They are following what the Quran tells them too. It is a choice. But it is all written down in the quran.
And the extremists are taking over Islam. One thing which is a sign of that is the more and more extreme rules on covering for women.
More and more women are told that niqaab is fard. Which is bidah. Even proclaimiing it mustahab is bidah. It is not mentioned in the quran which states cover the breast and down to the knees. But many websites change the wording of the quran and add hijab and covering of the face.
This will not be enough either, after covering the face it is cover the hands.
And last year there was a fatwa that women now have to cover their right eye as well.
Next year it will be covering both eyes.
And then it will be never leave the house.
Lifelong imprisonment for the crime of being born with a vagina.
Many europian ladies who have returned to islam wear the niqab ,because they want ,not thinking they’ll receive extra points to go to paradise. I’m myself scandinavian and I wear my hijab and I’m proud of it and most of you would be surprised how many western ladies wear hijab from their free will not obliged by husband. That’s real freedom that we muslims can dress as we want not showing our bodies as cows in meet market.
[...] { Islam, Saudi Arabia, honour killing, religion, women } I am writing this post in response to a post on ”American Bedu”. The very best blog for those who wish to learn about saudi [...]
Just because you wear hijab/niqab does not mean the rest of us are showing our bodies like “cows in a meet (sic) market.” And as a Muslim, you should not talk about people that way.
It’s real freedom for you to wear it because no one makes you. The freedom is in the choosing- not in what you wear.
2:256: “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.”
2:257: “Allah is the protecting guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are the rightful owners of the Fire [of Hell]. They will abide therein [forever].”
OK…I am sure I am going to incur a lot of wrath here BUT I want to play devils advocate for a moment. I am reading this injunction from the Qur’an differently. I have just spent a couple of weeks on another blog arguing the “language” of the “Qur’an” so that is why I want to throw this out. Disclosure: I am not a Muslim…
I see no where in that sura where it says that one must follow Islam or be thrown into the hellfire. It says Allah which we non Muslims interpret to mean a Muslim God because that is the way we use it. But Allah is the Arabic word for God and anyone who speaks Arabic would use that word for God. The Christians in Malaysia who speak Malay and the Christians in Arabic speaking countries to this day use the word Allah to mean their God- a Christian God. So in fact, unless there is more to it that sura, I argue one can use it in a generic way to mean a monotheistic God. Not only the Muslim God.
Having said that, extremists do use the language to suppress others and justify their atrocities.
@ MoQ and Save the Women
I am familiar with the verses in their entirety and they don’t disturb me. “Allah is Hearer and Knower” – not anyone else. So everyone should be minding their business.
Belief/disbelief and reject- are all loaded words. Again ALLAH is the judge.
Hadith is not Sunnah. Hadith is not divine. Hadith can be useful but more often than not abused -or used to circumvent the Quran. The same and even more so for ancient juristic rulings.
I find it interesting that when someone holds a different opinion people assume the other person is ignorant in some way.
I am aware of the mis-translated Quran- where they insert explanation right into the translated text. The Hilali/Khan translation is notorious.
Oh- and those Muslims throwing acid and bullying women- they are not more “religious” they are more barbarous.
@Oby,
I didn’t see your post before. I agree with you. Allah means god. And as you can see I took it further. There is a lot that can be said about what constitutes “belief” and “rejection”.
I mean how can someone believe or reject if they’ve never even got the message? People’s true intentions, knowledge and abilities to either accept or reject can only be known by Allah. Heck, people are even capable of lying to their own selves!
@ Zahra, This is exactely what I mean. The saudis export their view of islam all through the world now, They tell women they have to wear niqaab. Even if it is a custom from before islam and is not in the quraan. They made you believe this bidah. They deluded you.
Especially new western converts are made to believe niqaab is mandatory and pleases Allah.
Of course you are proud of it. You prove with this comment you think you are better than women who do not cover. you prove that you think you are way better than women who wear normal, decent european dress.
You are a typical example of brainwashing. It is amazing that you think your body exists only as a piece of meat for men.
I will adress these issues on my blog. I am tired of hearing them.
@ Sandy, but these actions, of honour killings and throwing acid in the faces of women are supported by the muslim community. And they are justified by religion according to the criminals and the community. Now you may think differently. And good for you! But as long as the overwhelming majority of muslims support these crimes that is what Islam is.
As long as the majority of muslims prefer hadith then that is what Islam is.
I’ll def. take the time to read everyone’s comments…but for now let me state … veiling has NOTHING to do with Islam. I now refuse to veil, even in KSA. Women who do it are brainwashed.
As a saudi woman I find it denigrating. It does indeed hamper everything I try to do. And I am one of the people who gave little kids nightmares when I first moved to the USA for school.
I believe France has every right to demand “bare” faces, just as KSA has always demanded that foreign women cover in abayas.
This subject makes me sooooo angry!!!
@Save the Women
I don’t think you can say that honour killing and throwing acid in the faces of women are supported by the muslim community as a whole-but those that do use religion to justify it. And because these violent acts -like terrorism are so sensational in their barbarity they have a wide impact beyond the actual victom. And I can understand that this impact partly defines what Islam is in a practical sense.
I will say though – that with time and maturity as I started speaking out more, I’m finding more people than one might think already think like me.
The key point, no matter what your view on Islam is, that women MUST have the right to choose. It should be a personal choice and women should not have to worry about recriminations from either side of the debate for the choice that they make.
Sometimes those claiming to want “women’s freedom” are as bad as those who want to force women to wear the hijab. Why is an insult from someone wanting to “free” women any better from someone wanting to force them to wear the hijab?
Women should have the right to make whatever choice they want and NOT have to worry about insults flying at them from either direction.
A women who chooses to wear hijab should not have to face insults of “brainwashing” or “sheep” from those who claim to take their side, nor should they have to be called “loose” or “haram” by those who would force them to wear it.
Those who claim to want to defend or help women should refrain from using the insult and name calling tactics used by the religious extremists. It actually HARMS your cause, it doesnt help it.
When non-Muslim women bag out the dress code of Muslim women, it is best to ignore them because they don’t understand. They can have their “freedom” and I will have mine, under my niqab!!!
Agree with American Bedu—Some actually do by choice. Yes, I am wondering why some do not mention other religious head gear as oppressive; there are others who have to adhere to strick dress code too.
I really think it boils down to a matter of choice, and ofcourse culture and family traditions.
@Sandy…
I think you are more right than you know. I don’t know where you are located, but there was a very long article from one of the respected British news papers(forgot the name) I read about the creep of very strict Islam in England and all the things you talked about. It was a story about several former “jihadis” for lack of a better term, who, after some soul searching had come to the conclusion that what they believed in was wrong and that Islam was being abused by the jihadis/extremists and that the world was identifying Islam as violent predominantly. They now have a group that is funded by the British government that speaks to jihadis and potential jihadis and even just average Muslims about how wrong it is to do such actions against anyone-Muslims or non. What they found was that MANY Muslims don’t agree with what is going on (killings, honor killings, terrorism and on and on) BUT that they were too afraid to speak out for fear of being singled out for being a “traitor” against Islam or worse, they were afraid of being harmed physically…so many stayed silent. Now that they have a forum and a “safe” place to speak out these people are finding that there are MANY more just like them…and they are finding strength in numbers and as a result feel better about speaking up!
@Sandy,
Sorry, if I made the wrong assumption, but you quoted the verse partially and made it sound like a bumper sticker slogan. Verses are supposed to be quoted fully.
Now just to be clear, I do believe there are people like you that take the most peaceful path to every issue. I am glad that you do. We can argue the issue of interpretation of the religion and can take the utopia approach. That is fine if you ignore many aspects of what practically happen in real life:
- The many invasions Muslims conduct and forced people to change religion (including the prophet and the 3 kahifas)
- The many wars that are currently happening in all parts of Muslims countries and countries that have Muslims minorities
- The acts of killings through terrorists acts that happen in an almost daily basis
- Attacks on embassies and killings just for a cartoon
- Fatwah’s of killings by religious leaders on people that speak against the religion
- The oppression of women that you defend as unislamic
- Etc. I can go on for pages.
All of these are conducted by Muslims that claim, just like you do, that they have the real Islam. Yes, you can think of a very mild religion that does not interfere with others’ believes and freedoms, but what happens in reality is different than your philosophies. As a matter of fact, if you are a Muslim women you cannot even give a Friday Khutba since the religion does not allow you to lead. The people that get to do that by majority hold a different interpretation of the religion than you do and are the ones that impact the masses.
You can avoid the topic of all the issues of freedom in Islam by throwing a slogan around, but that is not reality.
@MoQ,
I dont want to get into a lengthy debate with you. Christianity went through it’s period of reformation starting around 600 years ago. Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianty. What I see happening today is the starting of a Islamic reformation.
Like the reformation in the Christian world, it will be bloody, it will not be nice and understandings of the religion and ideology will be all over the place.
One thing that someone interested in real change in the Muslim world should NOT do is go out of their way to attack Islam in it’s entirety. Such a tactic will most certainly loose and give power and strength to the extremists.
I realise you come from a Muslim background but are no longer Muslim. What I am trying to point out to you is that the way you approach the issue isnt helpful. Almost every side in this issue, liberal, moderate or extremist is going to reject your continual attack against Islamic theology and history.
As you are no longer a Muslim you are really on the sidelines. You need to ask yourself if you want to help the side in the conflict that wants to reform and change, or do you want to aid the extremists, whether you seek to or not?
Continually looking to slam Islam, Islamic practices and the like do nothing but aid the extremists, especially in the course and often crass manner that you do.
I will not respond to anything you write back to this because I am sick of the back and forth with you that goes nowhere.
I just wanted to make my point that Islam, as a religion, isnt going anywhere. People are not going to reject it, people are not going to completely alter it. If that is what you are seeking or thinking will happen, then it will be a VERY long wait.
If you are really interested in change and reform in the Muslim world you must rethink your approach and your tactics. You might have your heart in the right place, but that means precious little if your words and actions provide cover for the extremists.
MoQ
I don’t ignore the reality of what is happening. It would be naive and foolish of me. Muslims kill/oppress more Muslims than anyone else. And as a woman living in Saudi Arabia pretty much impossible to ignore the practical realities.
My only attempt here- is to bear witness that it IS possible for Islam to be a real faith of peace, and that there are at least some Muslims that see it that way. People continuously ask the moderate (though I am probably more liberal than that generally denotes) to speak out. And so I am. I am also tired of the very culturally conservative being “the voice” of Islam. There is no peaceful equivalent to blowing something up- so I have to be content with voicing my views on venues like this. (and just an interesting side note- I have, in fact given a Friday khutbah, at a very small private venue)
Oh and regardless of religion-or lack thereof- some people will find an “ism” or use the one at hand- to live violently. It isn’t always the fault of the “ism”.
And now I’m sure this will make you laugh. When I first reponded to you I thought you were a Muslim explaining to me how it’s ok to change things by hand!!!
“Probably because I cant remember the last time nuns were beaten or killed for not wearing their coverings…maybe they are but i dont hear about it.”
I don’t know about you guys. or where you get your info or Saudi law references.
What I know is I see non-Muslim women uncovered all the time (head and everything) and also alot of Saudi women uncovered in public one way or another.
My question is who the hell started the “Hijab by force” rumor?
and lets say there is suck law, Who exactly helps to enforce it?
@ Oby. Thank you. And I live in Saudi Arabia.
@ Abu Sinan- you are absolutey right- it is about the woman’s choice. .
@ Sandy, No, it is fact that these actions are condoned by the majority of muslims. Muslins will not, or dare not speak out and act against the criminals. thereby they are the enabelers of these acts. Men who kill women and call it in honour killing will not be punished. I cannot understand how ytou can twist that into claiming it is only a small minority. If a whole society does not not punish a despicable act, then that act gains a status of acceptance.
sorry for the typos, written in a hurry
oby,
“I see no where in that sura where it says that one must follow Islam or be thrown into the hellfire. ”
This is just one verse: 98:6 (Yusuf Ali) Those who reject the Truth (Islam), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
@AbuSinan,
You certainly had the freedom not to reply, but your point is disingenuous, if you argue that you do not want to debate after throwing another set of accusations. I do believe Muslims avoid the facts and argue philosophically from their point of view. Listing facts is not an unsupported attack.It is raising valid points. You again ignore the points and choose the personal attack route, which is your usual debate process.
Regarding the reformation of Christianity, I am very familiar with the topic. It is about time Muslims look at their religion seriously and go through similar change instead of the constant defending. The fact is Islam is not reforming, it is getting more radical. I did not just address the history of Islam. Most of my points are about what is happening now (you ignored that and focused only on the first bullet)
You can disagree with what I say, that is your opinion. From my point of view it is not a tactic, it is an informed opinion that I share. It is the truth that invokes change not hiding your head in the sand.
Aafke-
First of all, there is no single “Islamic society”. I have not twisted anything. I have seen no evidence that the majority of Muslms condone honour killings. This is a serious claim against a huge number of people. Show me some evidence if you want to make that claim. And “condone” and “enable” are not the same thing. Also, because a disempowered person does not stop something does not make them an enabler.
There are actually quite a few Muslims that speak out against honour killings. And BTW I personally prefer the term “murder” because that’s what it is.
and @ Abu Sinan, I do not think that Islam is advancing anywhere, however slowly. It seems to be going backwards rather than forwards, not you but you must be a minority.
Islam seems to be getting more and more supressive, see al the new converts, or ”reverts” as they like to call themselves, all the women starting to wear severe hijab and extreme niqab.
You see it more and more in the west also. And I think it’s our right as western nations, who consider extreme covering a security hazard, and a symbol of oppression (which it is) to ban it in certain places. After all, in those places you have to remove helmets and hoods as well.
And @ Zahra, I find your comment extremely insulting. I wear modern clothes and consider myself decently dressed. I am not in the meatmarket for men. And if any idiotic man thinks so I am perfectly able to break his bones and make him think otherwise.
I found that between the lines your comment is arrogant.
And showing signs of brainwashing.
Sandy somebody else said that to me too, and you are right, but with the global village as it is, and our modern means of transport and communication, it is getting more and more uniform. And more and more Saudi Wahhabi impregnated. you see things change for the worse in almost all Islamic countries, and in the new western ”;reverts” especially.
You want evidence? What evidence can be more convinving that there is no punishment meeted out to honourkillings in Islamic countries? And the call for leniency for honourkillings in other countries? I ahve no idea what proof you are talking about.
You read about honourkillings everyday and the murderers are sure to get off scottfree.
AbySinan, the completely different world we live in nowadays is also why your comparison with midieval Europe and the time reformation of christiantity took doesn’t take hold. Muslims don’t want to change Islam for the better, on the contrary, the change is to more and more extremism.
Fatwas against everybody who doesn’t agree with Islam, Un resolutions to protect Islam from criticism, more and more extreme covering of women, wanting sharia law in other non-islamic countries,
Sandy I am sorry but when the muslim communities do not condemn honourkilling, supression of women, terrorrist acts, killing of schoolteachers because their students named a teddybear Mohammed, calling out for the death of illustrators who make cartoons (western illustrators, not their own) who riot across the globe (!) because a tiny little newspaper in a tiny little country published a couple of mediocre cartoons then yes: the whole, global muslim community is enabling these acts.
@Aafke,
Islam, like Christianity, is going to have it’s forward moments and it’s backwards moments. The reformation was all over the place, theology wise, some peoples and areas advancing, other areas burning heretics to the death at the stake.
One cannot say “Islam isnt advancing” because Islam is not a monolithic entity. The Muslim world is comprised of dozens and dozens of societies, communties and cultures. Some are moving slowly forward, some have gone backwards. If the model of the reformation is anything, this is to be expected.
As to being in the minority, I am HAPPY to say that I am. But when one looks at history, it is always the minorities that have made the real changes in society. As an American I’d point out that if things were left to the majority, we’d still be singing God Save the Queen and flying the Butcher’s Rag.
It was the minority who ended up fighting and gaining us our freedom. It will be the same for Islam.
Personally, I think the BEST thing we could do is actually let the extremists take a shot at ruling. In eternal opposition it is easy to scream “Islam is the answer” when you never have to provide for anything. Why is it that Muslim countries are always given the choice between murderous dictators and monarchies and the extremists? Why does the West only seem to want to support which ever side, even the extremists, when it supports their interests?
I figure, if political Islam were given an actual shot at ruling it would quickly go the way of Nassite pan Arab nationalism.
As to the West, they can ban whatever they want, but then they loose the ability to claim freedom of religion. Let’s not let the extremists force our hand into becoming like them. We in the West win when we RESIST the temptation to be like them. When we give in and act like them, we are the loosers.
The link between “honour” killings and Islam is very slim. I read somewhere that there are more women killed in such domestic type situations in India than the entire Muslim world, mostly involving Hindu families.
It is a cultural thing. If it was Islam you’d seen honour killings everywhere you see Muslims, but you dont. It also ignores the killings in the Christian community in the Middle East and the “honour” killings done by secular families.
If it was Islam you’d expect to see large numbers of such killings in the American convert community, but it just isnt there, even though a lot of these converts are on the more conservative end.
It is a cultural issue, full stop. Trying to blame it on Islam just isnt truthful nor does it help.
I also read about murders in the US every day. But that doesn’t mean the majority condone or enable it.
I first came to Saudi more than twenty years ago. It is better now than it used to be. Granted I can’t speak for the entire Muslim world- but the trend here is positive.
In Saudi you do not hear daily of honour killings- though truthfully that may rise as women get more freedom. I hope not, but it’s possible. Jordan has a much greater problem with it. The Indian subcontinant has problems with it- but those seem more culture related as it crosses faith lines. In fact, it all seems more a tribal behavior than anything else.
The fact is- to varying degrees women are treated unfairly everywhere. Look at the punishments meted out to a woman that kills her husband, no matter how abusive. However, that doesn’t make any of it ok.
Truthfully, I don’t want to detract from the issue of honour killings by quibbling percentages, because it is a problem that needs to be addressed. But it is also difficult for me not to respond when you make very broad claims about an enormous population and about me as well.
Anyway, I do not know that Islamic counties all legally allow honour killings. You are claiming that- and I’m not saying your wrong- but this is not something I know.
@Aafke,
Is Islam to blame for the thousand of women murdered in India over the practice of dowry? More often than not the murders, the husbands and families get off very lightly. This is starting to change, but it is still happening.
There have been laws passed in Muslim countries about honour killing, but it is an engrained CULTURAL practice done by Christians and Muslims.
Of course the Muslim world of today is different than Christianity and Europe 600 years ago. I never said otherwise. But I think the comparision is valid.
You had many different sects warring for the hearts and minds of the people. Multiple states and minor and major religious players looking for advantage, often tailoring their “religious” views to meet those needs.
You write “Muslims don’t want to change Islam for the better, on the contrary, the change is to more and more extremism.”
That is a blanket statement full of stereotypes and generalisations. You write Muslims dont want to change. Which Muslims? Are the Muslims in Yemen, Indonesia, Turkey, Malaysia, Pakistan and Europe all the same?
You say Muslims dont want to change, yet you are arguing with at least two Muslims here PUSHING for change.
You say Muslim communities dont condemn honour killings, again I’d have to say that you are generalising. How many Muslim majority countries are there in the world? How many of them have serious “honour” killing issues? Of those, how many also have non Muslim communities in those country who also do such killings?
I guess you missed the 150 or so Muslims that got together, on their own, to demonstrate recently against the “knicker bomber”.
To make blanket statements like you have done just doesnt hold water. Sure, the majority of the Muslim world is silent about these things, but a good majority is speaking out and there are more of us all of the time.
It is interesting, if you take a look at your posts here over the last year or so you’ll find that you have become rather radicalised in your opinions. You used to sit and argue tooth and nail that none of this has an Islamic basis, now you are moving the other way.
It would seem you are being radicalised as well, just not by some old guy with a beard.
Radicalism of all shapes and sizes are wrong, even secular/anti Islam radicalism
Sorry, it should have been “but a good minority is speaking out and there are more of us all of the time.” I guess you forgot about the protests in some areas of the Muslim world after 9/11?
@ Abu Sinan
“Personally, I think the BEST thing we could do is actually let the extremists take a shot at ruling. In eternal opposition it is easy to scream “Islam is the answer” when you never have to provide for anything.”
Yes that’s easy for you to say! I have to confess, I’m living close enough to that type of scenario.
Veering even more off-topic, isn’t that what Iran did? I wouldn’t want to live there. And it’s taking too long.
@Sandy,
I get where you are coming from, but societies dont change quickly. Yes, the extremists took power in Iran and we are really just now seeing a small group of people really starting to resist.
Interestingly enough, the leaders of this grass roots resistance are not secular, they are not anti Islam, they are liberal clerics.
Any change that happens in the Muslim world is not going to come from the secular West, it is not going to come from those who hate Islam. It is actually going to come from those of us who love Islam and HATE what these people are doing to it.
That is the point I am trying to make to MoQ, Aafke and others who seems think that attacking Islam, it’s Prophet and other tactics or ideas are going to work.
They arent. If the issue is addressed in that fashion there will never be any change in the Muslim world.
The change must come from Muslims and it must come the religious direction.
PS Sandy, from a women’s rights issue Iran actually gives more rights and freedoms to it’s female citizens than Saudi Arabia does. The quickest example, one near and dear to my heart, is that Iranian women are able to pass citizenship to their children father for foreign men.
I dont think any other country in the Middle East does that.
Sandy, if there were lots of murders and nobody would act on them then yes: western society would be enabling the murderers. Point is that we put in a lot of work, effort, and money to punish those who take life.
A really stupid comparison, just like comparing not wearing niqab as the equivalent as being meat for men. Sorry.
Abu Sinan, I wish you were the majority.
But I think we have enough examples of what happens if the creeps take control.
yes, I have changedt. I was in contact with a lot of people like you, and thought like you, but then I also read people like the new weirdo we have here, and kept on reading more of the Quran and hadith, and have gotten pretty disgusted by now. Besides looking at the mess most muslim countries are in, and the endless crimes against humanity, women and children, and all in the name of Islam. And it is all there. It is either in the quran or the hadith.
You can cherrypick from the side of light and become like you, or cherrypick from the side of darkness and become like the creeps.
I am convinced religions are made up, and in the case of Islam you can see the process very clearly. As mohammed changed his opinions he changed the sura’s. And of course you can do a lot of intellectual acrobatics to explain that, but I don’t believe it. I don’t believe in any religion. They are too unfair, too clearly devised by humans (men), too unlogic, and too prone to evil.
You are funny though: ”just not by some old guy with a beard”
@ Oby,
you said:
“It was a story about several former “jihadis” for lack of a better term, who, after some soul searching had come to the conclusion that what they believed in was wrong and that Islam was being abused by the jihadis/extremists and that the world was identifying Islam as violent predominantly.”
I know the groups you are talking about as there are many of them in the mosques all over Britain doing exactly that.
Those same “jihadis” were also men who admitted that they had been mislead, had not studied Islam properly FOR THEMSELVES and they were looking for a type of brotherhood similar to what some gang members feel they get from their clicks. In sum, they got sucked into a wrong way of life, one that goes against WHY they wanted to be Muslims.
What might be an interesting piece of information (to you,) is that these same people working in the communities here, being promoted and supported by the government, are the same ones the general joe public tarnish with insults like ” wahhabi” , “Salafists” “brainwashed”etc etc “reverts” who are sheep “following the Saudi bile” that is being propagated.
Upon learning this, some political parties lobbied to have them banned citing reasons including “they don’t want community cohesion since they are trying to brand “us” (the British publice or indegenous nation as some of them now describe themselves), with their brand of Islam” forgetting that many of the men were born in Britain, raised in Britain and called themselves British too.
Another quote used to stifle the work was “they force their women to wear the veil which is incompatible with British ways of life”
Dammed if we do, dammed if we don’t I think.
Seems some will use any excuse they can find to hinder any kind of interaction, cohesion or understanding based on presumed terror.
@Aafke
“Sandy, if there were lots of murders and nobody would act on them then yes: western society would be enabling the murderers. Point is that we put in a lot of work, effort, and money to punish those who take life.
A really stupid comparison, just like comparing not wearing niqab as the equivalent as being meat for men. Sorry.”
Perhaps I gave a poor example, and I could explain what I meant -but I don’t think it would matter. In either case, that was not the entirety of my post. And my comparison being “stupid” doesn’t therefore equate to it being like the non-niqabi’s being meat for men.
You seem to be trying to either discredit me somehow, or paint me in some corner as…I’m not sure what…but it isn’t very flattering and it sure feels hostile. Anyway, I’m tired, it’s late, and I’m losing clarity. Think what you want of me.
Oh…and when you talk about what “we” as in “Westerners” have accomplished – I’m American- so that’s me too.
I am glad you admit it Aafke, but by going against Islam in general then you must recognise that you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Any reform, any changes in the Muslim world WILL be religious in nature. So if you completely reject Islam and all religions, then you really cease to be able to have any say or be able to offer anything positive in this discussion.
Once you have decided that Islam is the problem, you become the polar opposite of the “Islam is the answer” people and will make no difference.
I hope you change your views because I really think you have something to offer. Jumping into the anti-Islam camp negates anything positive you could offer to the situation.
@Abu Sinan
Iranian women also participate in the military I believe. Yes in some way they have more freedom than women in Saudi. I guess in Iran the gender disparity may be less, but overall it isn’t good.
Also, depending on your situation in Saudi, you can creatte the illusion of more rights if your “wali” grants them to you. So someone in that situation is probably better off overall than the average woman in Iran. But it isn’t typical.
It’s gettting late here. Good night.
Abu Sinan, I am taking the liberty of copying this from an earlier comment by Moq, because I agree with these
- The many invasions Muslims conduct and forced people to change religion (including the prophet and the 3 kahifas)
- The many wars that are currently happening in all parts of Muslims countries and countries that have Muslims minorities
- The acts of killings through terrorists acts that happen in an almost daily basis
- Attacks on embassies and killings just for a cartoon
- Fatwah’s of killings by religious leaders on people that speak against the religion
- The oppression of women that you defend as unislamic
and I am adding:
-Calling for the murder of a schoolmistress because her pupils wanted to call a teddybear mohammed
-torturing and imprisoning a very woman for recieveng her bread from her nephew.
-Global riotting because of an insignificant paper in europe plceing some cartoons about mohammed
-punishing rape victims with imprisonment and/or torture or stoning them as adultresses
-allowing men to kill thier female relatives under the pretext of ”honour”
-selling very young schoolgirls to old men for sex under the pretext of ”marriage”
-calling for the murder of apostates and homosexuals
-denying women basic human rights
I think all these acts are sick and wrong and plain evil. Yet they are what muslim people and muslim governments apply. And according to the majority, and/or the selfimposed leaders of muslim states, these are what Allah wants. These are the rules of Allah, they are to be followed or you will burn in hell..
Of course there are people all over who do not like these atrocities.
But you hardly ever hear a word from them.
The reason is that these are not the people in power. moreover, they are so powerless that if they do speak out their own heads will roll.
Because people like that, and like you, would be branded apostates and killing you would be pleasing in the eye of God.
@Sandy,
I agree with most of your comment and I really think you and many other Muslims are peaceful.
The only difference we have is on this quote and it is core to how I perceive things differently than you.
“My only attempt here- is to bear witness that it IS possible for Islam to be a real faith of peace, and that there are at least some Muslims that see it that way.”
Islam cannot be a peaceful faith without a huge effort of eliminating/marginalizing hundreds of violent verses in the Quran and an even larger number of haiths. It is an impossible task, since at the core of Islam is the believe that the Quran is the true and complete final message from God.
I do believe most Muslims are peaceful, but that is because of the true goodness of humans and despite the religion.
Waw! I so agree with you! I think people are good despite religion, not because of it. Religions erode morality, not enforce it.
Christiantity has some pretty horrendous evil parts in the biblle, including inhumane punishments. but they have been able to cut loose from that. Muslims have not yet done so.
I think one of the reasons the christian church had to back down is that they do not have the power they used to. Christian countries have seperated state from religion. But I believe that if they only had the chance they would instantly revert to stuff like witchburnings and inquisitions, and destroy the seperation of state and religion. Look at how the Roman Catholics are protecting and enabling pedophile priests, excommunicating families in those countries where they have most power if the families object and fight for their rights.
It’s only because the majority of Christians is dead against these midieval tenets, that the christian clerics have to tow the line.
Religions are set up to control the populace and give clerics power. The more power a religion has, the clearer this becomes. And Saudi Arabia is a prime example of that.
@Abu Rumaisa
I was actually trying to make a case for Islam being a peaceful and accepting religion that says that Allah chose to create people of all faiths and cultures and that there is no compulsion in Islam. I guess I was wrong.
Sandy I do not want to discredit you. Or paint you out as something bad. I am sorry. I will have to stop ranting and choose my words more carefully.
@ maryam
I did not know that and it makes me feel rather sad. Evidently the government believed in it so much at one point that it was giving I think about 2 million dollars (american conversion) to the cause.
The way the article read they were doing a really good service that spoke to people because these guys themsleves were once trained and had killed or were willing to kill for Islam. who better to hear a message of reform from than the people who actually lived the life, have seen it from the other side and have chosen a different path? I saw it as a great service not only for young Muslims who might be on the fence or feeling disenfranchised but also for the non Muslims that would be the target of this misdirected Islam.
I HOPE that these “reformers” have the strength to ignore the insults and realize that they have a higher purpose that they hopefully can contribute in a big way to convince the Muslim youth jihad is not the right path , but at the same time show the community at large that jihad isn’t an inevitable part of Islam. That it can be lived without violence. Fingers crossed!
I am a Non Saudi Muslim woman living in Saudi Arabia. I do not wear the hijab when I am back in my home country but here I do simply because I do not want to be looking over my shoulder all the time for religious police to pounce on me for not wearing the hijab. What I have come to realise, after years of living here, is that the niqab is necessary in certain situations or places. I keep one tucked inside my handbag and will put it on whenever I feel uncomfortable with my surroundings. Most of those here who have made many comments on Saudi Arabia, have never in fact been here & therefore you do not know what its like here. Some areas are totally dominated by men whom, seldom see women. They do, literally, openly, gape at your face. They would stop dead on their tracks and just rudely stare & will not even turn away even if you actually catch them doing so. Hence, in such situations, I would wear the niqab, to protect myself.
@Abu Sinan – ‘I guess you forgot about the protests in some areas of the Muslim world after 9/11?’
I guess they were drowned out by all the cheering and parties celebrating the great victory!
And about that 150 (? I thought it was more like a couple dozen) member protest against the underwear bomber, While I was happy to see that they did come out , I’ll be impressed when I see a protest against a terrorist that can come close to one that we’ll see if there is a rumor of a cartoon depicting Mohammed or a Q’uran desecration.
I would support allowing women to fully veil in the West – but only if cultural and legal penalties on women who refuse to veil are removed EVERYWHERE.
I think it is hypocrisy to say freedom means women should be able to choose to veil in the west and NOT FIGHT by any means the FORCED veiling in Islamic countries.
That means, I reject, under current conditions, allowing women to cover their faces in Western countries.
Because these women are a part of Islamic communities, they don’t have the freedom to make that choice.
Furthermore, if the west allows them to veil, the west is only enabling their oppression. NO!
@popopsma, I understand you! I like to have a niqaab handy in some places. Besides, it’s so very incognito!
(It is excellent for a professional shoplifter I always think!)
And you do get more harassment as a western women with a saudi hausband. And not alone from the CPVPV, but also from some women! The deathlooks I have had from saudi women! Scary! Burned into my retinas!
It is still enforced. No question of free choice if you are otherwise harrassed to death!
I think you cannot ask the question if veiling is a free choice. You can just as well ask an agha if they like their lot in life! You would never get the true answer!
And veiling is on the rise! Everywhere!. The more people turn to religion, the more oppressive they get. My husband used to go on regular holidays to Egypt. He tells me the women in Egypt didn’t wear hijab, only a very small minority did. And the saudi women who wore niqaab were looked upon like aliens from outer space!
Now almost all women in Egypt wear hijab and even Egyptian women start to veil. The women often wear hijab to escape from harrasment only or not to be seen as ”easy”.
Women can and should wear whatever the heck they want….all I’m saying is, don’t blame me if I freak out and get scared and suspicious of someone wearing a ski mask.
Why do you think Halloween is so freaky? Cause we can’t see people’s faces and we don’t know what we can trust. So, it’s up to the wearer to decide how they want to be perceived – open and trustworthy, or mysterious and scary.
As I read through all the comments one word which I find repeating itself over and over is freedom. In my view, what one who is from the west believes as freedom is not the same as one who has been raised in Saudi. We are very different in our outlooks, beliefs, cultures, understandings and I think it is important to find a middle ground and then go from there.
Carol,
You are right – freedom should be the right to decide whether one should or should not wear the veil. I am using the word “veil” in its literal sense – I mean all kinds of veils, not only the face-covering one.
It is really not an issue of what Islam sanctions and what it doesn’t and whether veil is Islamic or not. The point is that the law about it should not be restrictive. Whether it is Islamic or not, if some women want to practise it they should have the freedom to do so and if some women don’t want to practise it, they should have the freedom not to do so. Whether it is Islamic or not is a matter of their personal understanding and others shouldn’t interfere with their choice.
@ MoQ
(((((“My only attempt here- is to bear witness that it IS possible for Islam to be a real faith of peace, and that there are at least some Muslims that see it that way.”
Islam cannot be a peaceful faith without a huge effort of eliminating/marginalizing hundreds of violent verses in the Quran and an even larger number of haiths. It is an impossible task, since at the core of Islam is the believe that the Quran is the true and complete final message from God. ))))))
Ok. Would you settle for at least some Muslims see it that way? But really I don’t completely disagree, though I see a different solution. To go through all the hadith to eliminate/marginalize one by one, will not happen. What may happen is a realization that Hadith is not Sunnah (which is how it get such high credibiity) and that the so called “science of hadith” is not actually something sanctioned by the faith. This is a view I hold and I know other Muslims with the same view.
As for the Quran- the concept that many things in it are describing a specific situation, rather than a generality is already there. So the literal clinging to violent, out of context verses (I do realize you may not see them that way) can be attended to. Most Jews and Christians have managed to approach their violent texts differently. Islam can go through a similar process. (Actually, hopefully they can do it faster and with less violence).
Many of the masses buying into this stuff are un or under-educated. Most Musims don’t even speak Arabic. They may be able to recite Quran but they have no comprehension (it is a very phonetic language). Better education, better thinking skills, will hopefully lead to more discernment and better leadership. But then, I am a teacher and I always think education is the answer!
@ Aafke.
No worries. I sometimes rant at us too
@ Save the Women,
Once when I was out on a memorable shopping triip with my son, he watched as I first told off the Ninja who tried to cut the check-out line in front of us, to be followed by watching a different Ninja shoplift a cookie from a Starbucks. Unbelievable. A COOKIE?? They were buying Frappachino’s. These were not hungry, desparate people. How cheaply some people hold there own integrity- not to mention the faith they are supposedly representing in their garb.
I talked to the guy at the counter- and told him maybe they should keep the cookies behind the counter and why. He said they want them out- but he knows they get lifted a lot.
well I live in KSA right now and although I dont wear niqab here (anymore) I can tell you that really for most Saudi’s the choice of niqab or no niqab doesnt really exist. Its based on whats the norm in ones particular family, i.e. tribe. if in your family/tribe women wear niqab and overhead abayaat anything less would be considered horrible. There ARE some women who wear niqab for religious reasons and they truely feel it is fard (required) and those who cover again, for religious reasons but overwhelmingly how one dresses comes down to family/tribal norms. In some families a shoulder abaya with color is OK, in others…not so.
As an expat, those societal expectations dont affect me too much, and yes, you can go out in a colored abaya or even a tunic and a skirt…I know, Ive done so…as long as your modestly dressed in something resembling an overgarment no one really bats an eye. But for Saudi women, it’s a whole nother ball of wax as far as societal and family expectations go. I have a friend whose husband is Latino…here he looks Saudi and she is very Arab looking herself and they get slack all the time because of how she dresses, people really think they are Saudi and so find her wearing a coat over her abaya or wearing a colored scarf inappropriate so she has started to dress more like a Saudi woman just to get some peace when they go out.
I donno, Allahu alim (God knows best)…
Sis Popopsma
Salaamu alaikum…I’m in KSA too and like you an expat Muslimah. I do wear hijab and actually norm wore abaya or jilbab in the US before coming here.
I wanted to comment on this comment “some areas are totally dominated by men whom, seldom see women. They do, literally, openly, gape at your face. They would stop dead on their tracks and just rudely stare & will not even turn away even if you actually catch them doing so. Hence, in such situations, I would wear the niqab, to protect myself.”
I used to think this as well, so I wore niqab when I arrived in early Ramadan of this year and wore it up until about a month and a half ago. I noticed that really niqab did not keep creepers away from me, infact I even had 1 Saudi creeper come up to me in an Abaya shop and offer to buy me an abaya in exchange for my number because HE thought I was Saudi! The fact that I was all covered and had my 3yr old with me did NOT matter. I also experienced stalking by Saudi men too. You’d go anywhere and they would really look you in the face, I’m sure imagining whats under the niqab.
Since that time, I stopped…for my own safety and sanity! Now, I dress pretty Iranian…with a colored shaylah, tunic, jeans and topped by an overhead abaya or a chador I brought with me…and frankly…I dont get ANY of this…I havent had any problems with mutawwah or Saudi guys stalking me or looking at me way too much, sure some foreign workers from Pakistan continue to gawk, but they gawk at ALL women anyway…overall I feel a LOT more secure and safer, since I dont “look” Saudi…noone really pays much attention to me anyway.
Dammit. Why do I always show up late for the party?! Anyway. I think the key is balance. I don’t have a problem with niqab, but rather the ENFORCEMENT of niqab. If one chooses to wear it, they should be given the respect for their choice. If someone wants to implant 2 horn shaped bumps under the skin of their forehead complete with other facial piercings (which I saw at the mall), I will have to tolerate their choice. Do I like it? Uh, hell no, but it is their choice. I despise the system of “uniforming” Muslim women in all black from head to toe, face included. There, they have no choice, no voice, no variety, etc. They have been turned into shadows with no say in the matter. and if you asked me, it gives rise to MORE sexual deviancy! Which is what it was eh-hem, “supposed” to prevent. I would never live in a society that enforced something like that on me. Ever. The sad thing is, I honestly cannot foresee a future where Saudi will be able to turn back from this strange practice of fashion rigidity. It would take a whole LOT of people and a HUMONGOUS mental shift. Good luck with that.
I was listening to an interview on the BBC with a niqabi journalist and they were discussing the issues of the lurking niqab ban in some areas of Europe. She made a good point. Enforcing women NOT to wear it, will create a stronger conviction in the women TO wear it. I think she called it secular fundamentalism or something like that. Someone else also made the point that if these Europeans who wanted the ban REALLY cared about these women, they would be looking for ways to integrate them into the society in a helpful and caring manner, not the other way around.
@Sandy,
I have a different opinion on whether the Quran verses are situational and only apply to the battles at the time of the prophet. That is a long discussion that may be too out of topic for now.
I agree on the education part. Instead of focusing propagating more myths of religion, why not teach kids things that benefit their judgment. Ex. Science: that have improved our lives by thousands folds compared to anything religion offers. Secular laws and social sciences, so they can understand their relationship with others in society. Democratic principles, etc.
Teaching more religion is not the answer. It is not a coincident that when nations get more religious the prospect of a better future gets worse.
@ sabiwabi…
I think you do have a point. It seems even with full covering a woman gets hassled with kids, without kids, with older mother along…you name it.
Maybe, just maybe wrapping the women up completely provides MORE of a reason for attention. After all, a man can’t see the woman and as a result his mind will wander and he will wonder what she looks like, what her hair is like etc. I think of it like a kid who is wanting to unwrap a gift. Half the fun is the anticipation and wondering what it is and imaging it could be anything…until the wrapping comes off and reality of what it actually is sets in.
I know the abaya was supposed to prevent sexual impulses but a man is a man and a woman can wear a potato sack over her head and he will find a way to find that alluring. If she was not such forbidden fruit in the first place I am not so sure this hassling would continue. I think that is one reason men in the West have better control of themselves. They see women all the time and so it isn’t a “hidden, forbidden treat”.
@MoQ,
I agree with you on this one. Religion is something that should completely be left out of school.
Religion can be taught to children and adults, but it should be done on a personal level.
However, your statement about when nations get more religious the prospect of a better future gets worse doesnt hold water. America has been, is, and will be, one of the most religious nations in the West. Polls consistantly show that Americans have a level of religious belief that towers over most countries in the developed world, yet that has done little to keep us down or to dampen our future!
We are the #1 economy of the world, the future looks great, and we are religious. The US disproves your point.
@AbuSinan,
America is a great nation, because of separation of church and state.It is the secular traditions that made it what it is.
Science and innovation free of religion, have been the driver of prosperity. The religious institutions did not contribute to any advancements. You could also look up surveys of scientific communities to see this point clearly (there are many of them out there). All of these survey’s point to a state of godlessness between scientists that exceed 60% and the higher. The high achievers even having a higher percentage.
If you look at recent years, you just got over a term of a president that involved his religious believes in governing. He involved the US in 2 major wars, reduced spending on science, eliminated research in new ares like stemcell, etc. The US is not a better nation today than it was before his presidency.
You also should look into Kuwait and see how religion stopped its progress. I am not listing other countries such as Iran that have forced religious systems since there can be an argument made that the religion is used to serve the system.
Oby,
No matter what women choose to wear, or are forced to wear, my conviction is that they all should know 1) how to carry themselves respectably and 2) how to kick a little a** when necessary. Period.
Carol:
“As I read through all the comments one word which I find repeating itself over and over is freedom. In my view, what one who is from the west believes as freedom is not the same as one who has been raised in Saudi. We are very different in our outlooks, beliefs, cultures, understandings and I think it is important to find a middle ground and then go from there.”
This is very slippery. The middle ground from which you tolerate forced veiling and even support it as a choice (which it is not, where you live) , does shade into a tolerance of slavery, injustice, oppression.
@MoQ,
You wrote “It is not a coincident that when nations get more religious the prospect of a better future gets worse.”
That is a VERY broad statement, nowhere did you place any limitations on that claim, simply put you said more religion=worse future for nations.
You can back track now and try to place limitations on the original statement. I agree with you about seperation of church and state, but that isnt what you said. Maybe you should have said “as more religion gets involved in governance the prospect of a better future gets worse.”
The US has been in many wars over the years and I dont think any of them can be traced back to religion. I the same is true of George Bush, even with his whacky religious views.
Religion, in and of itself, does nothing and says nothing about the future of a people. Adding in religion into a governing structure, that is a whole different story.
The religious nature of the American people has done nothing to stunt the growth of the country or what I believe is it’s unique position in world history.
America has, since the begining, been a very religious nation. All of it’s founders claimed some sort of religious devotion and it is almost impossible to get elected today without proclaiming a faith. So it is clear that just religion itself doesnt hinder anything in a nation’s growth or success.
The only thing that does is injection of religion or religious theology into government. These are two seperate concepts.
America is a very religious country with a seperation between church and state. So it is entirely possible to be both religious and successful. It just depends on what kind of religiousity you are talking about.
Indeed, even as a Muslim I would say that much of what has made this nation great, since it’s founding, is the “Protestant work ethic”. It is the personal religious devotion of a large section of the citizens of this country, from the revolutionary war to present, that has helped this country become what it is.
So to simplify things to reflect reality here in the USA and as a general rule elsewhere:
Religion in government=bad
Religion in the citizenship=Good
I absolutely disagree with basic concepts being different in different cultures or religions.
Every normal mentally healthy human being knows what freedom is. A comment like this only opens the door into supression and inequality for women.
Like the sharia courst in Britian which they kept secret to the public but when their dirty little secret came out they justified it with being culturally ”sensitive” and giveing ”the muslims” (”them”) the space for their own justice system as they would view justice different as the rest of normal humans.
that sucks big time for the women of course. And I think it’s both a sign of the subconsiouc discounting of women which still goes on the the west as weel, and also of lumping all muslims together as one group.
And it sucks big time for the women, who maybe living in a country where equality of the sexes is guaranteed by law, but the muslim women have been excluded from protection by English law.
Wrong, wrong wrong, bad, bad, bad.
And freedom for a saudi woman means exactly what it means to me. Except that only a very few of Saudi women have actually tasted the reality of a touch of freedom and so only a few know what it means. but that does not change the concept itself. Not even for a Saudi woman.
@Aafke,
I dont know that much about the parallel Shari’a system in the UK, but I believe the all parties involved must agree. If any of the parties does not want to be involved then the case is handled by regular authorities.
If that is the case I have no issue with it. I would have an issue with it if people, by virtue of their religion, were forced into a Shari’a court if they didnt want to be.
I think you’ll also find there is a parallel religious court for family issues for the Jewish community as well.
Freedom of choice! If you dont like it, you dont have to do it, but dont keep consenting adults from doing it.
I always find it odd when people advocate freedom……….by wanting to limit people’s freedom.
I am all for choice, the more the better!
Abu Sinan, America is a secular state. Not a christian one, not a religious one. America guarantees freedom of religion, but it is not religious as a state. The founding fathers were very clear on that, and the constitution is bullitproof agains religous influence.
Neither were the founding fathers religious. Thomas Jefferson had all parts which he beleieved no healthy intelligent human being could believe was true cut out and the Jefferson bible is a very slim and fast read.
None of the founding fathers were religous. George Washington refused to take communion or kneel in church. He did not call for a priest on his deathbed either.
Have a real look at what the founding fathers did and you will see they were not religious.
Article eleven of the Treaty of Tripoli: ”The United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the christian religion.”
PS, there have been several studies which show that the more religious students are, the lower their IQ, and the lower their academic achievements.
I agree with MoQ and Abu Sinan that there should be a seperation of church and state.
Some of the Founding Fathers were religious, some were not, and many were religious in non-conventional ways. But they were clear about separation of church and state- and there is a lot of revisionist history being written to make them far more Christian than most of them were.
@Aafke,
I never said that America was a Christian state…..where did you get that from? Not me for sure!
Considering the fact that God is mentioned in the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence, you’ll have a hard time convincing most Americans that their founders didnt have at least some attachment to God and religion.
People tend not to mention things in their founding documents that play no role in their thoughts nor motivations.
You are MoQ have such a problem with religion, in general, that it blinds you to any sort of fair thinking about the subject.
The American people have always been religious. Religious in the sense that there is one dominating religious sect that rules this country? Nope, but religious in the sense that the majority of Americans have always labeled themselves as religious and as believing in God.
This self professed religious nature of Americans has done nothing to hinder the advancement of this country at all. Like I have always said religion, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.
Do you so quickly forget that this country was originally settled by Europeans looking for religious freedom?
Some founding fathers were religious, some were not. You cannot point at one or two people and try to make a generalised point. Below are some quotes by founding fathers of this nation……all very religion in nature and all quoted in the context of founding this nation.
You seem to mistake seperation of church and state with seperation of society and church. That doesnt work in the USA.
The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620:
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”
John Adams:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
Samuel Adams:
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]
Benjamin Franklin:
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787
Patrick Henry “Orator of the Revolution”:
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
James Madison:
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
@AbuSinan,
You are quote mining. The founding fathers had religions with varying degrees of adherence. What matters is how they were committed to Secularism. When religion appears in the constitution/ bill of rights, it is only when they wanted to specifically limit the powers of religion. A good example:
“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. ”
The founding Fathers even had the foresight to see that states may impose their own religious tests and restricted it.
Please, re-examine the document to understand the foundation and the strength of the principles the US was founded on. At the end of the day we agree on the main topic that started this entire thing which was freedom of choice. Those are offered under the constitution. Something you cannot prove for Islam, no matter how many diversions in new topics you go into.
Regarding the personal attacks (ex calling others blinded). You really need to do a self assessment to get to the bottom of the issue of why you cannot disagree with anyone without resorting to such tactics. It does not put you in a good light.
@Aafke, unless I missed it, you forgot to mention the most heinous of events, the murder of the schoolgirls who were not allowed to flee their building uncovered. So, indeed, as someone mentioned above women have actually been murdered in the name of “propriety”.
Re: abu Sinan’s “150 pious muslims” who demonstrated against the underpants bomber… hmmmm, that is not many. And I remember quite clearly as a little girl the celebrations and bragging that went on privately in KSA after 9/11.
Like Aafke, I have become more “radicalized” against Islam over the years. The hadiths are no better than fables, and the Quran makes an educated person wince. Let’s face it…the Quran is a political attempt to be all things to all tribes living in the peninsula at a time of great darkness and illiteracy. It is very much live by the sword and die by the sword. Attempts were made to pacify various groups by condoning customs through hadith, etc.
I did not mention it because it’s the whole sick mindset which opens the way to crimes like that.
It could have happened again: I read on Sand gets in my eyes blog that there was a medical emergency at a girls school and the medical emergency units were not allowed to enter. because they were male. The girls had to wait until a female healthcarer came along. Now they were afraid it might have been some poisoning from a gasleak or something. If that were the case there could have been a new death count of girls who were left to die (fully dressed but not dressed enough) in the name of the worship of the holy veil.
I agree, the Quran is very factual, and mostly a rulebook.A political amnifest.
There is very little of spiritual value in it. Even heaven consists of material stuff: a man’s paradise: expensive clothes, golden eating vessels, servants, eating and drinking and sex with virgins (and pearly boys) who never complain.
Shari’a must be disallowed in the west, period. That is because freedom to consent requires freedom as a precondition. Immigrant women who often don’t speak the language, who are heavily controlled by family and custom, need precisely to have their freedom as women supported, not denied, by the western country in which they are living. They need the western legal system MORE than western women.
Western women must be vigilant in their own lands against the development of a lower class of women with fewer rights. That will in the long run erode the rights of all women in the west.
“we muslims can dress as we want not showing our bodies as cows in meet market.”
Zahra, this is a shameful and disgusting attitude you are showing here about the dress of western women. If you feel this way, you should have the common decency not to express it.
If people feel it is appropriate to insult, slur, put down others on this blog, then Carol you need to post some guidelines.
How can we possibly achieve tolerance when it is perfectly okay to slander?
My mind is torn on this one really…….
I love to fully cover… niqab, gloves, you name it. I love knowing that only my husband can physically see me. It makes me feel cherished, not oppressed.
Before I became Muslim I wore the exact style of clothing that I chose. I loved jeans, skirts, sleeveless tops, etc and I could sport a bikini like the best of them. Yes men stared and made vulgar noises but for the most part I paid them no mind. Men who do that are jerks anyway, right? But what did my own immodesty say about me?
While studying Islam during college I had a strong desire to form a closer relationship with God. I was raised Baptist yet never practiced, you know the story. I had my fun during college…sex, drugs and rock n’roll, right? But I knew that life was not helping me. So I changed. Quit drugs, ended caustic relationships and I even changed my style of clothing too. Not all at once mind you but I did tone it down a bit.
When I accepted Islam I did not cover straight away. I was honestly in no hurry. I wanted to do things on my on terms, in my own time. I was making a life altering decision and I didn’t care if others thought poorly of me. This was my life…..a new life I was forming for God.
After accepting Islam, I had a strange sense that something was missing. I was praying, fasting…everything except wearing hijab. So I started off slowly…first I wore the jilbab, minus the hijab. Then one day having remembered childhood images of Mary, I decided to cover my hair and finally I felt at peace. Go on, you can roll your eyes all you like. The hijab, for me, made my Islam complete.
From then on I simply experimented with different styles until I found one that suited me. I settled on long dark khimars, with long skirts. It was practical for me. I was always on the go and it didn’t impede my movement in the slightest. And I’m sure you’ve all heard the stories…I went from an American woman who was accustomed to whistles from men to actually having doors being held open for me out of respect, a few times being mistaken for a nun. Not that I was offended, in fact I relished this new found modesty.
Having said that…at the time, the niqab disturbed me. I didn’t understand it. For years I refused to accept it was necessary. Until one day I decided to study it in more detail. Long story short, I became convinced it is better to cover your face. Not obligatory, just preferred. and having the CHOICE to do this was absolutely imperative to me. I was not forced, deluded, brainwashed or whatever derogatory term you can conjure. I simply chose to do it because that is how I wanted to further develop a close relationship with Allah. But it wasn’t easy wearing niqab in the US. and sometimes things happened that made me second guess my decision.
For example…smiling. One day while out shopping a non-muslim woman smiled at me. I smiled back….only she never saw my smile as I was wearing niqab. We then simply passed one another in silence. I couldn’t help but wonder how that made her feel if it left me feeling so uneasy myself. We are after all encouraged to smile right?…( “Even a smile is considered charity”.) But I kept it on and I loved that as an American I had the freedom to practice my newfound religion. Yet in spite of that, moved to Saudi seemingly forfeiting this freedom. So how to reconcile…? Naivety at it’s worst really.
Now that I’ve been in Saudi a few years I wouldn’t dream of stepping outside without my niqab. Not because I feel obligated to wear it but because I know what sort of society I am stepping into. After all, how many men here are away from their wives? How many men here are unable to marry? And how many admit they need more than one woman to satisfy them?
I don’t view the niqab or hijab oppressive or degrading to the woman. In regards to these particular men, I simply view women wearing it as “out of sight, out of mind”, it serves a purpose…a shield, barrier, protection for both genders in this society. And you cannot compare the benefits of wearing this here verses a western country. They have easier access to porn and prostitution, they are inundated with it. And although it is available in Saudi too, not as readily so. So it’s no wonder the men here stare at women thinking, “my God, I must have her!”. We are almost foreign to them. Not that the west treat women any better mind you…we must find a middle ground.
And I don’t believe women here are completely helpless in this situation. I have seen far too many women, both muslim and non muslim alike, here in Saudi uncovered to believe they don’t have some choice in the matter. But I firmly believe it is usually the family that either hinders or helps the Saudi woman’s choice in how she covers and not necessarily the laws of Saudi. A woman can easily avoid the mutawa areas here yet can only avoid her family for so long.
For example, it is not a law that I wear any particular style of abaya in Saudi yet my husband prefers I wear the traditional abaya while I would be just as pleased to go back to my cozy khimars. My sister in laws on the other hand wear a variety of different styles of abayas and although some are missing a modicum of modesty they at least have their CHOICE in wearing what they like.
And I know I am not the only woman in Saudi compromising with their husband in regards to hijab in order to keep the peace within the family. I know of a woman here whose husband not only asked her to NOT wear niqab but also to NOT wear socks! The only problem with that is she is so pale ghost white she always feels sorely out of place! So never underestimate how much family/spouses plays a role here on this issue. Perhaps the choice is there but is just not acted upon to appease loved ones. Good intentions gone awry I suppose.
@Oby,
Sorry this is a little late in reply to one of your earlier comment regarding the use of the word Allah by Christians in Malaysia.
Just coincidentally Muslims protested the use of the word by Christians. A court case was started to get a ruling to ban such use. When the court ruling came down allowing Christians the freedom to call their God Allah, some of the protesters decided to take on the sport of burning Churches. A total of 3 attacked with fire bombs.This was roughly 2 weeks ago. And the insanity continues…
@ummtiflain – wearing the full regalia does not keep you from being viewed as a sex object… Have you ever seen saudi women being harassed on the street as they walk together for safety??? I have…
And in the USA you stand out like a sore thumb. As you mention in your smile anecdote, you appear less than human – unable to respond to the simplest kind gesture.
Ask any arab man his foundest sexual fantasy – it’s always to do with “what’s under the abaya”.
Dressing modestly, but as a human being, allows men to learn to interact with women in a human way. Why denigrate men as being unable to keep their minds out of the gutter or control their impulses? If they are such good religious people, it should not pose a problem.
Abrlgusa, Love your comment! Thank you.
I’m sorry to say but one of the regular daily search terms to this blog are “niqabi s e x” Now that is pitiful!
I don’t understand the confusion Abu Sinan seems to have generated. He agrees with separation of church and state. He merely seems to have said that the people of the US are religious- in response to a claim that the more religious people are- the less successful. He nowhere suggests that the US government is religiously based.
How religious people are- and how religious a government is- are two things altogether different.
@Sandy,
The confusion starts when people change others’ position. My original comment was “It is not a coincident that when nations get more religious the prospect of a better future gets worse.” i.e. Nations not people.
Abu’s arguments is the US is religious because of people being religious. I think that is not a good rebuttal, because the US is arguable one of the most secular nations on earth. Since it has a strong foundation of separating religion from governing. Contrast that to the UK. Although the country has less religious people than the US, it is less secular because of the constitutional ties to the Anglican Church.
I have stated many times here that I do not care what a person’s faith is, That is a personal choice. I only have issues with religions as they try to interfere in Politics, Law and Science. Religions are not just people, they have institutions, clerics, and doctrine.
The original topic was Islam interfering with people’s rights, which fits under the Law category. So far the opposing discussion has been to produce new topics and never address how Islam as a religion, not one persons interpretation, guarantees freedom of choice.
I see what you are saying. But “the Nation” can also mean the people, not the government. It wasn’t clear to me either. But perhaps that’s because it is sometimes difficult to maintain track of the origins of every comment.
I don’t want to speak for Abu Sinan, but it seems we all agree on the importance of the separation of church and state.
I don’t think Islam, as a religion can guarantee peoples rights. And I think there is a preponderance of evidence to show that. But neither does democracy- especially if there aren’t provisions guaranteeing basic human rights even if a majority doesn’t want that (ie slavery) though I believe democracy is the best we have thus far.
Whatever the system, people will be administering it. And any system has the potential to be as flawed as the people. Ok. I’m back to education again,,….yadda…yadda….yadda…
Very well put. I admit that I am far to prone to get bogged down in side issues in discussions.
The topic is about how Islam as a religion in effect, in the way it is implemented does not offer freedom of choice i the hijab, and is getting more and more prone to force niqab on women.
However, in the context of KSA it cannot be denied that culture,m and family pressure are a primary concern in coercion to veil as well.
But then religion and culture ( and I still mean recent developments in culture, because I have heard too many times that veiling and niqab are only in fashion since a few decades) anyway, that the recently aquired habit of veiling is so intertwined with what is percieved as religion that for the rest of of the world it is immaterial if veiling is religion, cultural habit, or family pressure. The imams trained in KSA now teach the rest of the world that niqab is fard for women.
You can make a clear case against taking away the freedom of choice in veiling. It is not mentioned specifically in the quran, only in personal interpretations of scolars is it mentioned. The quran doesn’t mention veiling or hijab. Hijab as a word is only used in it original meaning of ”curtain” or ”covering” and never in the context of covering up women.
Besides, the quran states that men and women are equal in the eyes of god so you can just as well argue that as men do not have to wear hijab, then neither have women. And as men do not have to veil, then neither have women.
Or vice versa: women have to veil, and so men have to veil also., to keep women from throwing lustfull glances at them
And you can bet your bottom dollar that if men had to walk around in suffocating black shrouds as well, veiling would be out of fashion asap!
Religous explanations would be loosened up tomorrow!
@Sandy,
I dont get it either. This is the problem with extremists, either secular or religious, they just dont seem to be able to comprehend others. There is a disconnect between them and reality.
So here we get told that the more religious a nation is the worst their future becomes, when pointed out with FACT how this isnt true, they have to move the goal posts and change things. The original quote was VERY clear with ZERO limitations. He comes back later and wants to add limitations. It doesnt work that way……….
I know this is probably what he really thinks, but the facts just dont support it. His extremist view against religion of all sorts leads him to say and hold views that are just contrary to fact and common sense. But that is how extremists are, they suspend their common sense to be able to support their extremist views. In this way all extremists are the same, secular, religious or otherwise.
Aakfe clearly made a comment “Neither were the founding fathers religious.” I showed that to be false. Instead of accepting that fact, MoQ suspends his common sense and accuses me of “quote mining”. He HAS to avoid the issue because it clearly slams Aafke’s idea that the founding fathers had no strongly held religious views.
Interesting, someone makes a claim and I prove that the claim is false with the only way available, their own words, and it isnt good enough.
Another interesting thing with extremists. No matter how many facts you provide you are still wrong. Facts dont matter when you just KNOW that you are right.
If extremists werent so dangerous and caused so much death and destruction they would be rather amusing!
I meant very well put to MoQ’s bit.,
Not that I don’t agree with Sandy’s as well. And you can never stress the importance of education enough.
And I forgot to mention that in Islam, you can argue with authority, that these matters are stricktly between a person and God, and that no human can see inside a heart except God.
But then there is alkso stuff written in islam which ells you to interfere in other peoples business.
But then there afre also quotes which tell you to do so in a friendly manner and with a smile.
And on a purely personal matter, I find the all-encompassing importance meeted out to hijab, abaya and niqab superstitous and idolatrous to the extreme.
A sign of menta and spiritual poverty.
If you can be so riled up about a piece of cloth to punish, beat up or even kill humans for it then you have no spiritual depth at all. Superstition and idolatry have taken over any spiritual depth of religion.
If you consider something as trivial as veiling, which we know is but an ancient custom, to be a matter of dogma. of spiritual life and death, far more important as goodness, and prayer, and all other things, a religious nesseccety for reaching heaven (for women alone, men can wear what they like) then your religion (personal religion) is of such enormous shallowness that it doesn’t deserve to be called a religion at all.
not to forget letting children burn to a horirbile death in a fire because they do not wear abaya.
You really must be insane to consider an abaya more important as a human life.
@Aafke,
You are one of those who claims the hijab is only a recent fashion huh? Man, that cannard has been sold by those who hate Islam for a LONG time.
A quick look at my Mother In Law’s albums made it clear that at least in Saudi, they were covering in rather similar fashion some 50 years ago.
I know some people say “look at the photo albums” but to those with ZERO knowledge of the cultures in play they’d be unaware that women who cover will have photos taken of them uncovered because the only people who will view these pictures are those allowed to see them uncovered.
That is exactly why in my MiL’s albums I saw pictures of women unconvered at home and these same women COVERED when they were traveling outside. Cultural fads come and go, but the hijab, in one shape or another, has been a part of Muslim society for hundreds and hundreds of years.
I did a paper way back when, long before this was so much of an issue, where I pulled out historic descriptions of Muslim society from French and German orientalist texts. I found two that mentioned the practice of covering the head with cloth, one indeed mentioned covering and hands and feet as well. I wish I remember where I found those. “Orientalism” and it’s sources were usually from the 1800s.
The claim that the hijab is a modern invention just doesnt hold water. It fails to notice even basic things like the decrees and rulings by the Mamluks in Egypt requiring veiling starting in the 1250s CE.
Now we can argue WHY they mandated veiling back in the 1250s………but I dont think anyone with knowledge of the subject would argue that the decrees and laws were actually made.
Qasim Amin in 1899 wrote The Emancipation of Women and argued for new ways to look at the religion, one of these being a new look at the veil. If veiling wasnt common practice in 1899……why include the subject in a book about women’s rights?
Ever heard ot Ataturk, the secular founder of Turkey? One of the things he did when he came to power was to ban the hijab, this back in the early part of the 1900s. Again, if he had to ban it, it means it existed long before modern times.
I have to sit back and laugh when people say that the hijab was invented in the 1970s. Only someone with a complete lack of knowledge of the Muslim world would make such a statement. It just completely is divorced from reality.
It’s even there for you to see with your eyes in orientalist European art from the 1800s. Most of the time they prefer Muslim women to be naked…….but when they are dressed most often it is with hijab, looking much like it does today in many parts of the Muslim world.
To think the hijab is a modern invention it does really require suspension of critical thinking! The picture below was painted in 1849-1850. It shows women in a multitude of hijab designs. Some with hair exposed…some with faces covered.
http://www.artknowledgenews.com/files2008a/Tate-Orientalist-2.jpg
@Aafke,
I am glad you dont like the emphasis on the hijab. It is pretty much a Western hang up. The West discusses the issue far more than they do inthe Muslim world. Many Muslim feminists think of the hijab as actually a distraction from real issues, not a real issue itself.
I think it’s completely wrong to equate hijab with Islam.
Veiling started at least as early as the greeks and romans. A married woman in Rome was automatically a priestess of Vesta and had to veil.
All patriarchal societies seem to want to seclude women and cover them and I think as a sign of ownership.
And they have an unhealthy obsession with virginity.
Of women of course, not of men.
All Abrahamic religions insist one veiling but Islam is the only one where it isn’t in ”the book”. And as Islam is supposed to be God’s last word on religion you can argue that he or she has recanted on women having to veil.
Of course I don’t really believe that: I think all the books are made up by men and therefore so bloody unfair to women.
I believe that any belief system which discriminates against one gender in favour for the other is wrong. An not from a merciful caring God.
In ancient Arabia it was only the upperclass Jewish women who veiled, and when they converted to Islam they ofcourse kept up the veiling because it had to do with status, not religion. And when they were enslaved in war they had to lay of the covering. Slaves and lower class women were not allowed to veil in that ancient society. Mohammed’s wives did not cover and when they were harrassed the exuse by the harrassers was that they did not recognise them as upper-class and that they should veil to be recognised as such. But there was no religion involved.
Also if veiling denotes a higher class then naturally women who want to be thought higher class would want to veil.
The Ottomans also imposed veiling for women. Also in Saudi Arabia. A foreign opressor forced veiling.
And still there are many photographs of Arab bedouin women who did not veil, they wore loose dresses, and a cap or loose piece of cloth on their hair. And their tresses free. Look on my blog, I have posted quite a few of them. One is of a Princess who ruled Hail.
My point is that it wasn’t so normal as people want us to believe. And certainly veiling wasn’t. Veiling was only common at the most remote poor desert tribes. Another instance of women being forced to wear abaya and the modern style of covering.
That man in the interview I spoke about also said it was a great hardship on the women as they had to do their chores in the fields.
And the abaya itself is of course a modern garment in it’s construction. There is noth8ing traditional about it. Not if you consider a tradition has to be older than a few decades to count as tradition.
We recently went to Italy for holidays. We live in Indonesia. Funny thing is – Nuns habit is extremely similar to what the Islamic women wear here. Not as restrictive as the KSA – but a jilbab and the nuns cloth are extremely similar.
Also, wearing a headcover in a desert climate is a pretty normal thing to do. But wearing a scarf, and being required to conceal every strand of hair is two different issues.
Veiling was also commen in China. Again a class/status issue.
I do think that the Hijab issue is more than a western hang up, Those of us Muslim women who do not wear hijab are often discounted in our opinions, and continuosly being pressured to wear it. We are considered less religious, less pious and basicall just not as good. This regardless of how we may conduct ourselves, and regardless of how some of the veiled women conduct themselves.
arbgrlusa,
are you prone to asking arab men of their (as you put it) “fondest sexual fantasies”?
have you run a poll among strange arab men to be so convinced they always fantasize with what’s under the hood? i don’t look at the hijab as some sort of eroticism for them. we both know it wouldn’t matter if it was an abaya or a skirt my dear if a man’s mind wants to visit the gutter no garb could 100 % control his mind. the hijab should be viewed as assisting the man in controlling his sexual desires not to merely put all the onus on the female. and i firmly believe the less flesh that is exposed the less likely the man is to harm the woman.
and while i can attest to the different treatment i received from men both before and after covering, i never said covering fully would *always* protect women from harassment. i know too well about women in hijab being harassed as i have already previously posted being grabbed by a strange man here in saudi. again if a man wants to be a jerk the woman (no matter her clothing) can hardly be at fault all the time.
you said.. “Why denigrate men as being unable to keep their minds out of the gutter or control their impulses?
it’s not about denigrating anyone. it’s about accepting how men in general are and in particular are in saudi society. you touched on it yourself…at a very early age they are not taught how to properly interact with women. add to that the plethora of foreign workers here without their wives and sexual deviancy ensues. and no matter how righteous some may claim to be, you know as well as i do “good religious people” still make mistakes.
a very major reason for adultery is the physical attraction felt by both genders. of course both should be held accountable. but the woman’s body is obviously a more visceral experience for the man than that of the man’s body to the woman. so we must accept the very sexual nature of men is different from that of the female and hence leads them to more trouble. after all, how many women rape men???
and i don’t agree with how u stated my inability to return a smile warrants me subhuman simply because of my niqab. yes it made me feel uncomfortable not to be able to return my smile to a fellow woman but that still doesn’t change the fact that i believe the niqab still has benefits. and really how could a niqab render one subhuman? would that also apply to the many horrendous face piercings and tattoos i’ve seen in the US? is it not their face that they can do so with it as they please? so too for the niqabi wearer who does so by CHOICE and not compulsion.
and that’s what i took away from bedu’s orginal post, that hijab and niqab should be a matter of choice for the woman no matter where she lived, without government involvement and without the west always claiming she’s oppressed. in fact, if the saudi woman really does feel that way about niqab (and i have no doubt some do) , then she can wage her own war. she doesn’t need the west to always back her up.
so i am not interested in being personally attacked for what i believe in and for what style of hijab or niqab makes me feel comfortable. dialogues such as these really get us nowhere if people are only interested in forcing their own opinions down others throats. where has the civility gone? was it ever there to begin with? will we ever be at peace?
i suggest everyone visit this link. it’s not related to niqab but touches on how we can better accept our reality today…
http://www.raptitude.com/2010/01/forget-world-peace/#more-2483
@ Ummtiflain,
I so love the way you express youself masha Allah.
I was going to respond in agreement to your earlier post and decided (regrettably) against it since I was “over excited”.
I know exactly what you meant and agreed that since even our smiles are concealed, we can be easily misjudged as thinking we’re “holier than thou” when in actual fact we who wear niqab, are not of that mindset at all.
There is more (in the way of comliments and dua) that I would like to send your way but as this is not the place, just know I respect you and pray for better things for you insha Allah.
Aafke
You seem to forget that wearing the hijab, for many women in the world, is a conscience choice and that some actually ENJOY it and are grateful for the opportunity to wear it.
I always scratch my head when some feminists want to pick, pick and pick at hijabis, as if they think we didn’t know the “alternatives” out there. I’ve worn hijab for 14 years now, no “big issue”, no “suffrage”, nada….
I had to laugh as hijab being a sign of ownership under their husbands. The typical way Muslim women start to hijab is around puberty, way before marriage, if anything it is a sign of “ownership” to God.
You want a real sign of ownership? I’d say it is women fumbling over themselves to step out everyday in the tightest clothes and highest heels…like slaves to Prada and the eyes of men. Or how about a recent one from pop culture that no one seemed to bat an eyelash at? A few years ago, the rapper Snoop Dog showed up to an awards show with two women in bikini like outfits and CHAINS! Waltzed right in the front door with 2 girls in chain maille and leashes! everybody just laughed it off, which is a very telling sign of the times if you ask me.
Of course, maybe that comes from living for years on “the other side” and knowing the reasons why wearing hijab makes sense, at least for me, makes sense.
actually, ummtiflain, i would rather enjoy asking men about their sexual fantasies, but it’s often volunteered.
A mountain of black is not human…you are holding yourself out as something that needs to be covered, even though allah supposedly made you. and we all know, what he made is excellent.
PS @ Aafke, it’s always the converts…
@AbuSinan,
I see that you again stared calling people that disagree with you extremist and unable to comprehend. Personal attacks are the method of the weak in a debate.
You write so much and say very little, because you introduce many topics. If some one goes through all .your statements it will take books to answer all of the strange ideas you come up with. For example: “I figure, if political Islam were given an actual shot at ruling it would quickly go the way of Nassite pan Arab nationalism.” That happened in Iran and as a result political Islam got stronger, killed thousands, and never went away. Are you really this naive about the suffering it will bring on people?
I bring that up because there are hundreds of similar out of topic statements. You use the topic machine approach so you do not have to put up a concise argument on the original topic. That is again a method of diversion aimed at winning at all costs. It is personal to you not about bringing understanding.
Regarding my statement about nations and religion. I can defend that and I can debunk all your counter arguments like I always do. But that is of no use because you will start a new topic. If you like we can go to the debate page on that topic. However, you have to play by fair debate rules. For example answer the original argument which you avoided with all the diversions. The Second rule is to act like a person with intellect that knows that throwing claims around about others and name calling are a cop-out.
Here is the original topic again.”Islam does not allow freedoms”. That is especially true for women. The religion is full of references of the subjugation of women to men. The religion even allows slavery and your own prophet and 4 Kalifas (top role models for Muslims) took slaves. If these are your examples of freedoms then we have nothing to debate about.
Just as a last thought, You live under the freedoms guaranteed to you by a Secular Constitution. Be very happy you do not have to endure living under Islam!!!
wow arbgrlusa,
you sound proud about speaking to men so loosely, now that’s what i call self-respect! i wonder….do you kiss your mother with that same mouth? shame on you my dear! we don’t want to hear how you go about sullying yourself. goodness, some people have no class.
and to end this banal back and forth with you…wearing the abaya or niqab is not about someone taking the moral high ground and claiming to be more righteous or even superficially claiming to be more beautiful than any other woman. it’s first and foremost done to worship Allah and then IT”S ABOUT THE WOMAN’S CHOICE in how she prefers to cover!
and since you’re so dead set against the color black, which if i’m not mistaken has always been viewed as classic and sophisticated in the west, how would you feel about, oh i don’t know…say purple with a splash of green? would those colors then make me more human? or does that only apply to tight skirts and kitten heels? i must consult my american muslim friend who studies fashion to get her opinion on this one. god forbid i continue walking around disguised as a “black mountain” as you so eloquently put it.
to be overly simplistic here….you as a saudi woman choose to abandon the hijab and i as a convert, revert, american muslim (call it what you like) chose to embrace it.
and i LOVE that Allah has given us both that choice. but as for the women who do not have that choice it is and always will be up to them to rise up and take a stand on their on accord, no matter if they be in france or saudi. they simply cannot rely on radical feminists to bail them out and fight the battle (albeit haphazardly) for them.
*PS arbgrlusa: it’s always the strange ones-Alghuraba. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Xspb3dQeI
Aafke have you read the Holy Koran? You say that there isn’t statement of obligation for women to veil themselves and that Our beloved Prophets wives didn’t veil themselves,Read pls , the Surah Al-Noor (24) ayat 31 and surah 33:59 . And there are many ,many hadiths telling how Prophets wives used to veil themselves.
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@MoQ,
You are upset because you made a statement and it was readily shown to be false. You had to back track and add limitations to it.
I understand why you are so upset. Yes, I call you an extremist because that is how your words describe you. If you are upset at being labeled an extremist I suggest you stop with the extremist reasoning and viewpoints.
As to living in a secular country, you bet I do, I also live under Islam. One does not have to live in an “Islamic” state to live under Islam. Living under Islam is a personal choice everyone can choose, or not choose, to make. “Living under Islam” means that I follow the rules of my religion on a day to day basis.
Thank God I live in the West and am still able to live under Islam. Like one Egyptian journalist once noted, he traveled in the West and saw Islam everywhere, but no Muslims. He traveled in the Muslim world and saw Muslims everywhere but no Islam.
I live in a free country because my ancestors faught and died for their freedom. Your countrymen do not enjoy the same freedom because they were/are unwilling to pay that price.
If you are so interested in freedom for your country I suggest you take that battle up. Everyone has their role, I worked for my government, every member of my family were in the military and have been for over 100 years.
Freedom comes from sacrifice. No sacrifice, no freedom.
@AbuSinan,
I am gong to make these in bullets so you do not stray again into multiple new topics. A good habit of yours:
1 I never get upset in debates. Telling you the facts about your methods does not translate to being upset. You give yourself too much credit in this area or you are reflecting your own feelings. I remember you getting angry before. Just to be clear here is a common definition of an extremist “supporter or advocate of extreme doctrines or practices.” I have no Doctrine or practices, but you do. I advocate the process of reasoning and knowledge. With no reliance on a book written 1400 years ago.
2. I have always separated the process of power of politics and laws from the people’s faith in all my discussions with you. When I talk about nations, I talk about the institutions and systems of nations.Telling me that you live a personal life under Islam just works well with that argument. It is your choice as misguided as it is, but i have no issues with it.
3. Your reference to the Egyptian journalist is another diversion. Are we telling me now the Western culture is based on Islamic principles. An elegant statement that you read, does not translate into reality. Why not try to draw direct references from some of the democratic principles, personal freedoms, secularism etc, found in the western world to Islamic doctrine and see if that holds up. That will be an actual logical process. Try it for once.
4. Regarding Arab fight and your ancestors. I am an American Sir and just proud to be human like everyone else. These types of statements just show a deep prejudice that you hold for people with Arabic origin. You have displayed that many times here, by saying statement like “Islam is great, if it was not for the Muslims’. You have disrespect of the people that call themselves Muslims and never relate their issues to the religion that can be interpreted in many violent ways. Until you free your mind from the prejudice way you look at the world, you will never sound like a person of reason.
5. Regarding the Arabic world freedoms. I never suggested those can be resolved easily or with a military fight.I am into educating people to the truth. It will take generations to solve, but I do my bit. It is not the people, it is the religion that is the problem. I know you do not get it, but there are many others that do and will.
6. Again you never addressed the main topic. How does the religion you are so proud of give people freedoms? All I heard is you quoting a journalist.
Umm Tiflain & Sabiwabi… MashaAllah, couldn’t have said it better. I just don’t understand what is bad about a woman *choosing* what she wants to wear. After all, isn’t that a key part of feminism? Choosing what we wish to wear? If we wish to cover, what’s the big deal. Many people judge Muslim women who cover from their own standards and forget that many of those women have fought to cover, many converts have even suffered their families rejection because of their *choice* to cover.
I don’t agree with governments forcing clothing on women (or forcing them not to wear a certain piece of clothing) but I will never make fun of or insult a woman who chooses the clothes that she wears.
Sabiwabi, I don’t agree, the reasons very young girls are are wearing hijab or more, is because they are allready considered sexual objects. Who do belong to a man: the father. Ownership of women maybe transferred but the mindset is that a woman always belongs to a man, and family, and tribe. Whatever age she is.
Anyway: You can talk about hijab till your black in the face, no matter what seemingly logical reasons are put forward, if you talk to anybody long enough, the comment about men being unable to constrain themselves sexually comes up. You only have to keep the conversation going long enough and it will appear.
I think it is wrong to put the responsibility of men’s apparent inability to stop raping women onto the women.
Why not put responsibility of male behaviour where it belongs? On the men themselves!
The men could wear blinders, with only a small hole in front, so they can only see where they are going and can’t ogle women.
With modern technologies you could even make blinders which, when they are directed at women, would send off a mean jolt of electricity. Onto a chosen sensitive spot. In that way men would be trained never to look at women.
And the whole problem is solved.
[...] This post at American Bedu got me all riled up again. High time to express my personal feelings over this revolting form of oppression. Because I do not believe that covering yourself is natural, that any woman would choose to do so without being indoctrinated, forced or so neurotic about her appearance that she is mentally deranged. I know my feelings will be disregarded by many who have been made to believe that it’s God’s will that women have to cover their sinful, sin-arousing, shameful bodies. It’s so medieval: Men apparentlt can’t control themselves when confronted with the irresistible spectacle of a woman’s hair, or face, or hands…. That is muslim men of course, because here, in the wicked west, you can swim in the lake in a bikini without causing general mad macho mayhem. [...]
If so much heated debate is sparked on the topic of those who do or do not wear a niqab then how can one expect to address and resolve greater issues of misunderstanding?
Please keep up the dialogue with the comments. It is giving me thought for a future post I plan to address.
@MoQ,
So you are an American by birth or did you aquire citizenship? Again, if you are not an American by birth I would like to remind you that you had the opportunities of freedom that were paid for by the blood and sacrifice of others.
Funny that you tell me to free my mind from prejudice because you are one of the most prejudice people I have ever come into contact with. Right up there with the Muslim extremists I have met in the Middle East.
Birds of a feather I guess.
People get the government they deserve. The Arab people do not live under democratic governments because they, and their ancestors, have yet to decide that they are willing to pay the price required for such freedoms.
Freedom isnt free, as the old cliche goes. The Arab people will get their freedom when they decide that they want it bad enough to sacrifice what is needed to get it.
@AbuSinan,
Find one place where I showed any prejudice against 1 person in all my comments. You won’t find it because it does not exist. Disagreeing with Islamic ideology is not prejudice, because I do not translate it to the people. A good analogy is if you dislike communism does that make you prejudice against a Cuban communist. Get the point this time please.
You however have enough tirades about people all the time. When I called you prejudice I did it with evidence.
I recognize and appreciate the sacrifices of Americans that fought in the war of independence, you claim them. That is the difference. If you want to claim your ancestors achievements, then you should also claim their failures. Man up and give up 10% of your income for the next 20 years as restoration for the evils of slavery that black people had to endure.
I know the later part is silly, but it is to make the point of how silly your argument is.
Now, regarding fighting for freedoms. I do not think fighting in the Middle East will bring any improvements, since religion has people’s minds tied in knots,. All it will bring about is bloody Islamic regimes. Oh, I forgot that was the great plan that you discussed earlier. To you every thing should be a fight even a discussion on a blog.
In my way of thinking, the people have to be educated first before you can bring change to that region of the world.
Again, all you do is attack and not move any discussion forward. I still have not heard your response to the main topic. How does Islam provide freedoms? I am assuming you will address the issues of women in your response.
At this point I just have to assume that either you are incapable of making the argument or I was right all along that the point cannot be made since Islam does not provide for freedoms.
UmmTiflain,
Your account of how you accepted the veil is quite insightful. It shows how veiling by choice is not an oppressive mode of dressing. In fact, if a woman is forced to reveal her body, that’s as oppressive as forced veiling. That’s why I said above that veiling should be a matter of choice. The State should not impose it on the women. If it is imposed it is wrong. As long as it is a choice without the State making law about complulsive veiling, it is acceptable.
MOQ and Abu Sinan,
You both are right. I don’t know why you both are arguing about it. Yes, it is true that the people of America are religious and it is also true that the American State is not based on religiosity but on secular principles.
The difference in Saudi Arabia is that the State has imposed a particula version of religiosity on its people regardless of whatever attitude the people have towards that religiosity and the people don’t have a choice about it. Religion should not become the guiding principle for ruling a country, it should stay within the personal domain of the people. This is where Saudi Arabia is wrong.
@Daisy,
I think you bring up good points. There are multiple issues of covering that can be broken up for clarity and people can argue their view on each.
1. Should any one force a woman to cover either in Hijab or Niqab. This may include direct laws, family members control and or pressure by society. My view is No.
2. Should a government or anyone require a woman not to wear a Hijab if she chooses to. My view is no.
3. Can a government require a woman not to wear a Niqab, just like in the case of France. This is the one that may be debatable. My view is yes. Niqab hides identity and thus can be outlawed.
Regarding AbuSinan, All I can say is he is not in this for dialogue. You either agree with him or you are an extremist. I got promoted from radical in this last exchange
I am expecting him to throw a fit and get angry like the last time…
@ Abu Sinan
Just an FYI – Umm Adam lifted one of your posts from here and is using it on her site. I don’t know if that is typical blog manners or not- but I thought you would want to know.
I think the pressure on women to cover is always forced. Naturally you can wear hijab and even niqab out of your own” free will”. But it isn’t your own free will, because somebody put it into your head that god requires it of you. There is no God who requires women to cover their bodies, hair and faces. It is an invention by men.
And so once they made you believe God wants it there is no freedom of choice anymore. You have to.
Most women can write a very nice story if they did not cover before and why they do now. It is part of their deen, it is to save men the pressures of having to deal with their sexual urges, it is a jihad placed on women by God.
etc. etc.
Bottom line is: it is a rule made up by men and then attributed to God to make sure there is no way of refusing.
Bottomline is, it is put on women by force. And only if your twist your own mind to it then you can claim (erroniously) that you do it out of your own” free” will.
A will which isn’t free in the first place.
Sandy, you can lift posts from other people’s blogs if you ask permission of the writer, and attribute it to the original writer and place a link in the post. I have done so myself.
Not with comments but with a particular interesting post I liked by Saudi Woman.
aafke,
You are right that women are socially conditioned to believe that this is God’s will or the right thing to do. In the same way, they can be socially conditioned to believe that exposing their body is the right thing to do. Either way, it is oppressive.
PS – Just to clarify – I am not against revealing clothes either. Am just presenting the case on a conceptual level.
MOQ,
Yes, in France or in other Western countries, the immigrant population should accommodate itself to the host culture and hence, should wear modest clothes, which does not necessarily have to be a full-covering black dress. Same with Western converts to Islamwho live in the West – they don’t necessarily have to adopt the Arab mode of dress to assert their religion – a modest dress is enough to fulfil the requirement of Islam. As I said on another post, majority of Muslims don’t live in the Arab world anyway, so there is no reason why the Arab mode of dress should become the signifier of Islam.
Daisy…
“As I said on another post, majority of Muslims don’t live in the Arab world anyway, so there is no reason why the Arab mode of dress should become the signifier of Islam.”
But the scary thing is it is becoming the signifier more and more. And though women may not be actually forced by government decree they are forced to wear it due to pressure from family, community. Egypt 20 or 30 years ago did not wear hajib…now they do and are covering more and more as time goes by. IF women chose to wear it because they wanted to then that is fine. For example if somehow it was outlawed to pressure a woman about her head gear or lack of it (obviously we can’t do it but pretend we could) in ANY way, if she didn’t feel that she must do it to be seen as a pious muslim then if she choses it-fine.
But I think the losers in this whole thing are the women themselves. They are judgmental of each other. Those that cover are seen as more pious than those that don’t. How does anyone know what is in a woman’s heart? Maybe the one that covers also back bites and gossips in a bad way about her neighbors or friends. Maybe the one who doesn’t never bears false witness against anyone and does everything she can to live a good life. My point is a piece of cloth should not determine the level of religiosity of anyone. Only Allah knows what’s in her heart and how well she is serving Him.
@Oby,
You raise a good point. Why are women so judgemental of who covers with a niqab or not? Because a pure heart would not judge or point fingers whether it is because one has covered or has not covered.
Having been raised in the West I see covering of the face as losing one’s identity but one main concern I have is the lack of Vitamin D due to women being completely covered and not receiving adequate sunlight which all human beings need. I wonder what diseases are associated with such deficiency and if studies have been done in Saudi with the women.
I agree with the comment by Shameema. Aafke should save the oppressed women in her country who unfortunately have to stand half naked in sex shop windows waiting for clients.
I am not a fan of niqab, if the majority of the French people are opposed to it because it offends their social norms, then that is their right and are free to legislate against it.
@Lynn
Why should American Muslims try to impress you by coming out to protest? They do not have to justify anything to anyone because they have not commited any crime. If you think Muslims in your country are terrorist sypathisers, then come out and say it instead of hiding behind the number of Muslims taking part in protests.
Dearest sisters ummtiflain and arbgrlusa,
Im in KSA too and a Muslimah and wore hejab and jilbab/abaya in the US too and I can say that, unfortunately what sis arbgrlusa says is quite on target sis Umm Tiflain!
I used to wear niqab (when I first arrived) and i got harrassed by Saudi men ALL the time, and I didnt have on loads of eye makeup or tight abayaat…I was dressed uber modestly…yet I still was stalked by Saudi men, they would look me right in the eye and not look away or have any haya, I even had 1 track after me and my 3 yr old son in a ladies suq and offer to buy me an abaya in exchange for my number! Obvously I was angry and screamed at him. but, I contastly felt uneasy, like a piece of meat on display…because frankly…it’s true Saudi men are really interested in whats UNDER the niqab and they find it very intriguing…
I took off the niqab and reverted to my more normal style of dress, colored scarf, tunic and jeans with an overhead abaya and frankly…I dont get this any more!! Ofcourse you do have the foreign workers from Pakistan and India who drool over every single woman they see…those those guys still creep me out, but even their behavior towards me isnt as bad as before.
really for some reason, niqab just drives the men here bonkers! My husband has spoken to some of his Saudi male friends about this and they have expressed similar experiences of their wives and daughters complaining about being stalked and stared down or propositioned.
Also, unfortunately some women do wear niqab so they can engage in haraam relationships with non- mahram men and those women just spoil it for everyone else because I’m sure some Saudi men think…okay if I bother this woman, maybe she’ll be the lucky one for me.
Its really kind of a sad thing. Niqab can be a good thing, but I found it very much the cause of much lack of adab on the part of men here.
Allahu alim
@MoQ,
I disagree with lots of people and dont label them extremists because they are not. You are one of the few people here I have labeled an extremist because you are. It is as easy as that.
As for dialogue, I have been here involved in dialogue long before you came here. You seem to think this is all about you……….another sign of an extremist.
Interesting that you could do nothing but provide excuses for why you are doing nothing to bring freedom for the country you come from. Typical to want to preach to others about freedom, yet not want to do anything to bring it to the place where you come from.
@Sandy,
As to Umm Adam, she has long had a bit of an obsession about me for one reason or another. She has done this before, spent thousands of words “rebutting” me and the like.
She is an extremist on the other end of the scale from MoQ. She has converted to Islam and forgotten the Prophet’s (PBUH) injunction of moderation in religion.
A moderate will be disliked by extremists on both sides, so I look at these actions, like MoQ’s, as a sign that I am doing things completely right!
It is interesting the personal attacks on Carol on that site. I also found it amusing that Umm Adam says that her husband was an Arabic linguist for the “Department of Intelligence” for the US. There is no such thing as the “Depart of the Intelligence”. I had to laugh at that………..but it is interesting that she openly admits that her husband worked for the “great Shaitan” against Islam. Either she is really clueless and really thinks there is a “Department of Intelligence” or someone is telling “porkie pies” (lies).
LOL! Maybe she meant the Defense Intelligence Agency? Sad that her hubby worked for the “Great Shaitan” and cannot even get the name of the accursed agency right!
Either way, it is of non consequence. It is also interesting that some of the most vocal commentors in that thread at Umm Adam’s also made some VERY rude and insulting, not to mention unIslamic, comments about my family and our son with Autism.
These people are a shining example of what Islam is NOT and the major problem in the Muslim world today!
Civering, and especially niqab is a fetish
I mean it: they are separated from women as ytoung boys so their sexual fantasies are all the greater, and they project their sexual fantasies on niqab.
So Niqab is the muslim equivalent (in effect) as dressing up in skintight latex with stilletto healed boots and a whip.
Actually, there are a lot of facemasks in fetish fashion as well.
@AbuSInan,
You are the one that makes every discussion personal, It is your problem not mine. I can guarantee you I will just focus on the topics, if you do not make it personal.
I have asked the same question 5 times, which is the main topic. You talked about other systems that provide freedoms, but never about Islam. I assume you have accepted my point by now, since you did not have a good answer to it.
Now let me pose another question. I know this may present a conflict for you, that your faith is not as good as man made laws. Can you deal with that issue at a faith level?
@ AbuSinan, I do not undertand why you keep writing to MoQ but never answer any of his questions, or comment on the points he makes. You always keep clear of actually responding to him, instead you start calling him names.
I think you should either answer the questions and points MoQ makes, or stop writing to him.
I think MoQ asked a very good question here: Does Islam provide law and freedom as well as man-made laws?
I do not think so. What do you think?
@ Ummibrahim and UmmTiflain, and if you go and make umrah you should be careful not to look like a khaleeji woman, because the religious police will harrass you no end and spoil the whole experience for you. Better to wear a coloured or white abaya and look like a foreigner. The religious police harrass only the khaleeji women.
@ Aafke, funny, but I think veiling and niqaab are about possession and ownership: not fetish.
Maybe grazing in another saudi’s meadow is extra attractive to saudi men. Rather then going after foreign women.
@ Sandy, and AbuSinan, I read a bit of the ummadam blog and she is a twisted person.
A true hypocrite.
posing as a perfect musim while she does nothing but backbiting. She steal comments from this blog:
She names people by their name and lets her commentators backbite and call names as they like.
She is schizophrenic or blind or both. She is hypocritical, she steals, she lies. She breaks vital rules of Islam and still she thinks she is the best muslim.
So she is also vain and arrogant.
These are people you should not mind about. It is a pity there are such people. But it is a waste of time to worry about them. They will be called to pay for their deeds in the end. But that is the task of a higher power.
@MoQ,
The issue of this thread is about covering the face. I dont think you have really talked about that at all here, rather you have used it as a platform to attack Islam in general.
You attack me for straying from the issue at hand, but that is all you ever do. It starts with one subject and you quickly move it to a complete attack on Islam.
You fail to see that?
You and I have fundamentally different understandings of Islam and what it means. You, like Umm Adam, have the SAME EXACT understanding of Islam. You choose to reject Islam because of the intolerance you perceive, she chooses to embrace it despite the intolerance she sees in Islam. She sees the perceived intolerance as God’s Laws, you see it as a markings of a failed religion. Two different approaches to the same understanding.
I completely reject this misunderstanding of Islam but I have found that extremist secularists have about as much chance of changing their stripes as do Islamic extremists.
I have exlained to you many times my views about this subject and you found them interesting, in your own words, but you didnt agree with it. We have two completely different understandings of Islam. I cannot agree with yours and Umm Adam’s view of the religion and you two cannot agree with my understanding.
Ironic that an athiest and a Islamic extremist have the same understanding of the same religion yet come to two completely different conclusions.
As to Umm Adam and her blog, I have followed it for years and it has almost always been the scene of heavy fighting, arguing and slander with name calling being thrown in all different directions. Some of the attacks have been from people she knows in Saudi, some from people online.
I wont lower myself to go as personal as some of her commentors have. As I have said before, a few of them, who obviously think very highly of their own religious devotion, came to my blog and openly said that the reason my son has Autism is because of my poltiical views, my negative ideas about the Saudi establishment and the like.
That is what you get from that blog. It would be harder to find a better explaination of “fitnah” if you tried. Yet they are so so religious…….Masha’Allah!
@Sandy and Save the Women,
I think this is a common trait. There is an assumption by many Muslims that a person has to respect their religion, their prophet, their thinking etc. Otherwise they throw names around. Ummadam is just fits that mold. Even attacking a follow Muslim because he does not adhere to the same ideology she has. And of course the attack on non Muslims is to be expected !!
I do appreciate the Muslims that can have a dialogue like Carol, Sandy, Saudi Woman, Sabiwabi, Lat and others. Regardless of disagreement the only way to have a reasonable discussion is through focusing on the topic not the personalities.
Leila, women are mostly forced into prostitution, and prostitution only happens because it is still a man’s world and men want it so. Forcing women to wear abaya and niqab, and to wear a bikini and work as a prostitute are exactely the same thing in principal.
I think that the middle eastern culture is forcing women to prostitute themselves but in marriage
As I said on the misyaar post. Misyaar is but another way of making prostitution ”halal”
I am sorry but my view of the world is more global and not limited to one little speck on the globe. So I plan to keep on giving my opinion.
@AbuSinan,
My first comment is Islam does not allow freedom for a woman to choose. You are the one that diverted into other issues. I even broke up my position in categories, you did not read that.
I specify my positions clearly and ask questions for you to make me understand your position. So far I get I do not want to talk to you. A few hours later you initiate another discussion then cop-out. I have never started a discussion with you, but you pick your spot then run when asked questions. Very convenient and shows a person that has no basic debating abilities.
Regarding fundamental differences, good we agree on that. But if someone disagrees with you even on fundamentals all that means is they have their own mind.
Again, you did not answer the question, just started the broad brush of extremism argument. Do you actually have any other argument than this shallow one . You never answer any questions. Just get on a soap box talking about people.
I actually think you have no fundamental thoughts, you just make them up as you go and when tough questions are asked you run for the hills. Do you really believe in Islam or is it just a place to hang your hat on for comfort?
@AbuSinan,
I want to make sure that you know that these people that attacked your family are Scum. That is very low and I do agree you should be angry about that.
I wish the best for your son.
I am going to speak out now as Mother Hen Bedu and ask that personal attacks and backbiting stop. It is not appropriate and definitely not in keeping with the topic of the post.
I believe it was Umm Ibrahim who spoke out on her own personal experience while wearing niqab and she triggered a memory my husband shared with me which further validates a man’s obsession with the niqab.
A Saudi woman in our all-Saudi compound (except me) would walk each day at a certain time. She was not only fully covered but veiled when out as well. It turned out that my husband was friend’s with the woman’s husband. The woman told her husband that a Saudi started following her during her walk and he would stay behind her but speak of very inappropriate desires and acts. At the same time, the man who was following and harrassing the woman, not having any idea who the woman was, told her husband (whom he worked with) about this hot woman who he would follow when she walked. Of course the husband put two and two together. The way that he handled this delicate situation was to come upon the man following his wife while she walked. (he instructed his wife to do exactly what she was doing and if she saw him to ignore him). While his wife walked ahead he joined his colleague who even with someone beside him still kept talking and trying to get a response from the woman. The husband in turn spoke words to his colleague which shamed him but without revealing his own relationship to the woman (for face saving all around). The words he spoke worked for his wife was no longer followed by the man. And the husband shamed the man that they remained distant colleagues. The husband told my spouse that of course he felt rage, anger and wanted to harm the man but realized that would not be the appropriate nor the Islamic way to react. So this incident not only illustrates the obsession some men can have because a woman is fully covered and unknown but also show that there are decent men (Saudis) out there too.
@MoQ,
Thanks for the wishes for my son. I agree, the people who attacked my family are not good people, no matter how religious they think they are.
As to Islam, of course I believe in it. The difference here is that the Islam I believe in is a different Islam than you know/understand and a different Islam than the people like “Umm Adam” know and understand.
I cannot control how you view it or how the extremists view it. I know how it speaks to me and what it says. All I can do is speak out about how I think your understanding of Islam, the same understanding that Muslim extremists have, is wrong.
As to my thoughts, if you think I make them up as I go then you are very wrong and obviously havent read my blog. I have thought this way for years and have spent a lot of time doing so.
Being square in the middle kind of is a lonely place to be, but I never worried too much about not going the same way as everyone else.
“I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.”
@AbuSinan,
Ok very reasonable argument.
You have to understand I also have a lot of experience with the religion. And I understand all the positions, not just the Salafi ones. I know you may think different than the average Muslim, but religion is not defined by your positions alone.
Islam has Scholars, Institutions, Quran, hadith, believers, etc. There are different Muslims covering a large spectrum. However there are some basic believes that are common between the majority. I understand that you may not hold those believes, but at the end of the day the definition of the religion has to follow what the great majority hold.
Now in those basic believes I have many problems with the religion (hence I am outside of it). Those include but not limited to:
- Freedoms, especially for women
- Slavery acceptance (yes this issue did not go away, look at Sudan)
- Basic rejection of science
- Violence, you may disagree here, but from my perspective Islamic history is bloody from the start until today.
- Shura vs democracy
- etc.
I cannot accept the religion, nor do I see a future in reforming it. The Quran is a big hurdle to get over.
You may choose the option of reform. I have given that option thoughts for years and I do not see it as an alternative. I see the only way is a long term approach to teach the truth. As you know truth to me is the religion is man made during a time of tribal political struggle.
We may disagree, but we are both thinking people and are capable of choosing our path. There is room to change my mind in certain areas through rational dialogue.
@MoQ,
Coming from a Muslim background I am sure you do have a lot of knowledge of it. It is my experience that some of the people who are the most confused about their religion are those “born” into it. They also tend to want to lay all sorts of stuff at the feet of their religion that do not belong there.
Islam, has many ways to define it. When it comes down to it, the only real definition that matters is mine. Why? Because it is the only definition that I have to answer to God for. As I dont have to answer for what others think or do, that portion only concerns me slightly.
-Freedom for women is a good issue. Mohammed, at his time, gave rights to women that were unprecedented in his culture. Instead of keeping with that spirit, the theme, many Muslims instead choose to think that his ideas were static. This thought process is missing the forest for the trees.
Mohammed, for his time, was a radical women’s liberation type. He advanced women’s rights greatly. In keeping with this idea and spirit Muslims should not hold to his advances made in the 600s CE, rather they should continue with his ideas, his theme and continue the work he started. I dont think his views on women were ever meant to be static. However, because Muslim culture became static, so has their understanding of the religion.
-Slavery, of course it was legal for Jews and Christians as well. Sudan is a great example, but Christians keep slaves there as well. Using it as a tool to hammer Islam/Muslims doesnt work for that very fact.
-I dont see that Islam rejects science. If it did Muslims and the Muslim world wouldn’t have lead the scientific world for hundreds and hundreds of years. Tell that to Abbas ibn Firnas who created a “flying machine” hundreds of years before Davinci, Ibn al-Haitham and his ground breaking works on optics. High schoolers all around the world hate al Khwarizmi hate him to this day, even if they dont know who he is, because he created Algebra.
A faith which fundamentally rejects science wouldnt have such a grand and golden history of scientific achievement.
-Islam was bloody from the begining, where did I deny that? It would be hard to name a faith that wasnt bloody from the begining. To reject a faith because of violence both for an against it would be to deny all faiths.
I dont view The Qur’an as any bigger of a “hurdle” than the Old Testament, which makes The Qur’an look like a kindergarten “love in” compared to it. Again, I am sure we wont agree, but I find most of what you’d call a “hurdle” in The Qur’an stuff that was meant for a certain time and situation and certainly not an eternal exhortation to blood and mayhem.
Judaism and Christianity had their bumps and hickups. Islam would still have to double or triple their historical bodycount to catch up to Christianity, but what history does show us is that people can and do change despite everything.
What you view as “the truth” isnt the truth to most other people. Trying to continually disprove others just isnt a viable strategy. 99% of Muslims will not leave their faith, no matter how you’d like them to. So common sense says if you know they will not leave their faith there must be another route.
Going down the road of trying to completely change Islam or move people from it wont work. A rational person would see that. The next thing is to decide if that wont work……….what next.
I see that you are still stuck on the trying to disprove Islam or trying to get people to change their minds. You have to get past that…………it is a non starter.
Again, the only change that is going to happen is going to be from within Islam and it will be a religious based arguement that wins the day. Anything else will fail.
If you are interested in the welfare of Muslim cultures, societies and peoples it is a fact you must embrace. if you cannot embrace that fact I suggest you leave the whole thing behind because it is a waste of time on your part and I actually think your tactics cause more harm than good to those who would try to help.
Already we see how extremists, like Umm Adam, will point to someone like me who has ideas for change from a religious perspective, and use someone like you to batter them.
Your tactics wont work and in the end aid only those who will make things worse.
If that is your goal, by all means continue. If you really care about the peoples of the Muslim world then it is honestly time to rethink your ideas and methods.
@AbuSian,
I am not a fan of any religion, so the Christian/Jewish arguments do not work. for me. Also, I am well read in Islam so do not assume I am confused about interpretation and the diverse philosophies out there.I just simply disagree with you. I do that with total respect to your knowledge base.
- Women Freedoms: I do not see Mohamad improving their position at all. There is only 1 change the prophet made, which is to stop the Wa’ad practice (killing infant girls for economic reasons mostly). That was only in some tribes by the way and he made the pan of it universal. The prophet also put on some rules that subjugated women to men. He also took captured slaves. One of them was on the same night after her father and husband were killed by the Islamic army (this is authenticated, by Hadith and from many sources, not by enemies of Islam) From my perspective, these are not the acts of a man that respected women. Those issues cannot be explained away by intent of morals are supposed to change with time. Islam never made that claim, although I understand that is not your interpretation.
- Science: Islam had empires. Those like any other empires gained scientific knowledge from others. It will be foolish not to use what others have gained. However, look at Islamic history critically and dig for true scientific discoveries (not technology). You will not find much during what you refer to as the golden age. In modern Islam most scholars and religious institutes reject scientific discoveries like. Evolution. Yes I know your definition is different, but that is you and very few. others.
- Slavery: I know it is allowed in the bible, but that does not make it right. If Mohamad was a true messenger from a god, he should have known that it is an evil thing to do to other humans. This is especially true since he was working against slave owners in Makkah t convert their slaves and free them. However, when he was powerful and could enslave people, he had no problem with it.
- The idea that other religions are bloody, so Islam is right for being bloody, just does not make sense. I am talking about massacres of captured people like the tribe of Bano Quraeza. Were over 700 men as young as 13 were executed in one afternoon after their capture. All with the prophets approval. Of course the women of the tribe were divided as slaves. Again this is not a story written by enemies of Islam, it is in authenticated hadiths. The beginning of an ideology is important because it sets the teaching for the followers. Islam had a very bad start.
Regarding the rest of the comment. I decide what direction and what success I will have with it. The fact that you disagree with it is fine. I am also not a Muslim so I do not have the need to reform the religion. If you assume there isn’t an atheist movement in the Arabic/Muslim world, you will be wrong. Actually with the internet it is growing much faster than expected.
I will be a hypocrite if I decide to mask my disagreement with the religion,,start teaching untruth and act to reform it.
I’m sorry Carol but I respectfully disagree. Your story about the lady walking does not prove that (arab) men are always obsessed (or fantasizing) about women and their abaya’s. I don’t think any of us could prove what they really fantasize about (unless we ask) but why would we want to, it’s inappropriate and what’s the point, it will only encourage them! Our abayahs and niqabs as sex symbols? Fetishes? Oh my goodness…It’s taking this topic to a whole new level that I think is just wrong.
This story merely demonstrates that this particular man was a creep, pervert and had an agenda to bother a woman. I honestly believe he would have done the same thing had she not been covered.
And I’m sorry to say this, and people can blast me for this next statement all they want….but what was the woman’s initial response to this man’s behavior? Did she firmly rebuff him? Did she remain mute? How long did she let this carry on? Why did she still continue to walk in the same area at the same time? If she felt that uncomfortable she could have at least changed up her schedule or her route. So perhaps the man thought he only needed to be a bit more persistent until she took him up on his offer.
I think this illustrates a very important fact here…both the man and woman are responsible for themselves in situations like these. He obviously couldn’t control himself whether we like it or not and in my opinion she could have done a bit more on her part to thwart his advances.
For example, something similar happened to one of my sister in laws in Mamlakah. She was shopping, decently covered as per the style she chooses…you know the story. A man approached her asking her for her # and then she whacked him straight upside the head with her purse making it clear to him that she wasn’t interested. He walked away, end of story. But I’m sure many of us can share stories of how this woman or that woman was harassed because she was or wasn’t covered. We’re all going to have our on take on the reasons the harassments occur.
As I stated previously, I am not arguing that the abaya or niqab *always* prevents a woman from being harassed by men. I have already shared with you my experience of being groped by a stranger and I completely cover so yes I had a rather rude awakening to that fact myself. The way I see it …Men are men. Men love women. And if they want them bad enough they will pursue them no matter their clothing.
Having said that… I will always believe the niqab has more benefit than harm and that is only my opinion. I embraced it. It works for me. But I have plenty of friends that don’t embrace it. Live and let live, I say. It doesn’t mean I love them any less for their decision. I firmly believe it is and always should be a matter of choice.
And I thought the focus of this post was more about the woman’s choice in choosing to cover her face, etc and not necessarily the function or purpose of it per se. Every woman will have a different reason for why she covers the way she does. I will not deny that perhaps *some* women avoid the niqab because they feel it attracts more men or because they feel pressure to do so but we must accept that others also see the polar opposite. It really depends on what makes the woman most comfortable and how much of a choice she has in the matter. And CHOICE should always be our main concern here. Governments should have no say in the matter, full stop.
[...] recent American Bedu post on veiling generated a lot of controversy and excellent discussion of differing views and perspectives. As a [...]
I know everyone these days is an expert in everything including what they just heard about for the first time, and reaching the level of scholarship if they actually read a few books about it, but in case somebody has a genuine interest to understand the Hijab in Islam from a Muslim’s perspective, well, here it is. I have to say, one of the most bizarre statements I have read so far was that “veiling gives an unconscious message that women are disgusting, women are the root of evil, women are ”untouchable”, etc.” It is almost needless to say that not only do I definitely not find my wife disgusting and love her for who she is, her modesty being a part of that, this statement has no validity whatsoever. I do see how the average westerner can come to such a conclusion though, and that is why I thought I would try to correct this misconception, God willing. This common conclusion that many western men – more than women – come to is actually due to women being treated as such in western society where it is absolutely normal to sell a car by propping a mostly naked woman next to it just to stand and smile, and that is a piece of American cultural transmitted with no exaggeration. So when you see a woman who is doing the exact opposite of that, you are assuming she has the same status, that of a mere sex symbol (and I am not saying that is all a woman is in the west, but if your first experience in the US was to shop at the grocery store, the magazines in the checkout lane may have you think otherwise), only that her lowness and lack of value is covered up out of disgust. I actually first really understood how this is not just a bigoted bash of Islam but deep psychological programming (stemming from years of drinking media pollution) when I had to stop a security officer at the airport upon entering the US from opening an envelope containing pictures of my wife. His response was something to the effect of, “We’re all adults here, it’s nothing we haven’t seen.” When I let him know that actually it was something he had never seen – my wife – and he got pretty stiff about being able to search anything he wanted, I had to make it really clear to him that if he was not going to cooperate and bring a female employee to examine the envelope he would need to give me a written statement of why he was refusing to do so (and prepare to see me in some courthouse). At that point, he abruptly changed course and asked in an enlightened voice, “Is this for religious reasons?” When I affirmed, he quickly (and to my immense relief) had a female employee come open it, who was genuinely astonished to find just some regular pictures of my wife for paperwork etc. Only upon later contemplating the situation did I realize what his words really meant and why he didn’t understand. To him, I was ashamed of my wife being seen by him, just as the commenter whom I quoted previously. He may even have thought there was something reasonably indecent about the pictures which is why I had such a request, so he emphasized that we are all grown men and have “seen it before”. He didn’t understand that this was my wife and that I guarded her just as she guarded herself from a strange person seeing her (really, there is no difference in this and a woman wearing a bathing suit and not just swimming naked, except in the level of modesty felt within). A woman who covers everything only can know that modesty, which does not negate her being proud of herself. It also doesn’t mean she wears a veil just so she can feel superior to others. We all do things that we feel we excel in, is all of that just for you to be better and above? So many takes on the hijab and niqab that are really just revelations of what we feel about ourselves. Then there are those who say that this shows how men in Islam consider themselves superior and the woman inferior. Let’s examine the western model for a moment. If a man wears a suit and tie, but has his legs in stockings with shoes revealing his feet, would that please you to see? Why not? The answer is that a woman’s physical beauty is not the same as that of a man’s, she has been adorned and embellished physically – and even in her personality – by her Creator as He did not do with the man, for they are equal in status but not in role. Did you ever ponder why women usually have longer hair, wear makeup etc., things that don’t exist in the man’s world or have an equivalent? Do you not see that in the western model the man is always covered more than the woman? Why? Could it be for the very same reasons, but that women have been trained to make their beauty something they show, not cover? Were she to cover it, would she not then be more equal to the man in this aspect, if we were to agree that she is the physically more beautiful of the two? Covered, she is what she says and does, not a face painted seven colors and a body primped and displayed on a walking rack. You may say that why then is she not to be found everywhere men are found, and the answer is simply because she is the mother and lord of the house. Which is something else that is not understood, and responded to ever so often with fear and hate of the strange and unknown. If you consider it oppressive to assign the woman the role which her Creator has assigned her, then at least understand that the man is just as confined in Islam as the woman. He cannot ask her to work; nor spend her wealth to make ends meet; nor benefit himself from her property or business; because his being the breadwinner is the other side of the coin, and the reason why she is the caretaker of the home. If you want to have the father and mother both be father and mother, and pay the daycare, then fine. Just realize that the Muslim woman usually has a husband, while the American mom is now more often single and working and overburdened with life than not. Wanting – rather, nearly coercing – them to be equal in role and function has ripped apart society more than anything else, and both the parents and the children suffer the consequences. Yes, we believe that God did give men the Qawamah (upper hand and leadership) over women, but we know – both from knowledge and practice – that to do otherwise is to oppress both of them. And while some men are less men, and some women are less women (meaning that in their needs and personalities etc), and there is room for different family models, there is a basic role that each is obligated to fulfill. And there are beneficial things in both societies that we can each learn from each other, but the first step for those shouting oppression and pointing fingers is to really get some knowledge of Islaam before convincing yourself and others that you have it all figured out. {و هم ينهون عنه و ينأون عنه و إن يهلكون إلا أنفسهم و ما يشعرون} And they forbid it (the religion) and distance from it themselves, and they harm not except themselves (in doing so) but they are feel not.
Abu Zahrah
correction: …but they feel not (the harm they cause themselves).
Abu Zahrah,
I would agree that this is why SOME women wear hijab. But my experience is that women wear it for many different reasons. And sadly, one of those is because men insist upon it. Also for cultural reasons and sometimes hijabi’s DO like to act superior to eveyone else.
Sometimes the focus of hijab objectifies a woman just as much as her bikini clad body on an advert.
Sandy,
There is a difference between correcting your intentions and purifying them after having lost the original motive, and doing something innately wrong. That is something every muslim should be doing all the time with all their deeds, as we believe that no deed is accepted from the muslim or muslimah except that it is 1) done solely for the obedience of the Creator and 2) in accordance to what is revealed in the Quran, narrated authentically from His Messenger, peace be upon him, as understood by the first three generations, who were the model of Islaam for all time as affirmed in both the Qur’aan and Sunnah.
As for the focus of hijab objectifying her, then that which is in the eye of the beholder does not change the hijab one bit, and if someone is sick and finds a hijab as compelling as a nearly nude woman, that that person is sick, not the hijab. As for the sisters that wear a hijab to beautify themselves, then إنما الأعمال بالنيات verily all deeds are only as good as their intentions (behind them).
As for men or women calling upon their family members to wear the hijab, then they should do so with wisdom and gentleness, and teach, not dictate. And then they have the right to do that, for Islam came with every aspect of what I am speaking about explained in detail, tens of verses could be cited regarding what I have said above putting the various parts of the process in their due place. Truly, the chosen people of God, the children of Israel, peace be upon him, incurred the wrath of their Lord for this very reason. { لُعِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَلَى لِسَانِ دَاوُودَ وَعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ ذَلِكَ بِمَا عَصَوا وَّكَانُواْ يَعْتَدُونَ} {كَانُواْ لاَ يَتَنَاهَوْنَ عَن مُّنكَرٍ فَعَلُوهُ لَبِئْسَ مَا كَانُواْ يَفْعَلُونَ }المائدة79 {Cursed were the Children of Israel upon the tongues of David and Jesus the son of Maryam. That being for what they had disobeyed (in) and for what they had transgressed (in regards to). } {They (left off) amongst themselves the forbidding of evil; and what great evil they used to do}.
Also, Sandy, the rulings – meaning when we speak definitively about something – should not be made based on the exceptions. And neither Islam, nor Christianity, nor capitalism or any religion or philosophy, man-made or mixed or pure, can be understood simply through the people who follow it, especially someone who may not be very knowledgeable about it. And we all have mistakes without exception.
I realized just how opinionated everyone in the US has become (and expects everyone to be) when I was asked by a lady many years ago about which judge I was going to vote for while the whole city was going through a sign-waving war of judges competing for election. When I replied that I had no knowledge of the subject to vote for anybody, she became suddenly silent after being super-excited about voting for her judge. She could have told me whatever reasons she got on CNN etc. but I think she realized she really had no knowledge either. I think that’s the bottom line here, we have all given Fatawa about the Hijab, and made up forty laws regarding it’s use and how and who decides what and put it in our lawbooks already. And that process really needs to slow down in order to really make an education decision. Not just regarding the Hijab, but a lot of things.
May Allaah make these words a benefit to all of us despite their shortcomings.
Abu Zahrah
an important correction: …{Cursed were those who disbelieved from the Children of Israel…} ( I neglected the word “disbelieved” when translating)
I was speaking about why women wear hijab. NOT why they should wear it- or what their intentions should be when they wear it.
And no “we” do not believe that men have been given the upper hand by Allah. That is an interpretation that has been mis-used throughout the Islamic world. But it should be noted for the record that not all Muslims believe that.
Also, that is a gross generalization to say the western woman usually doesn’t have a husband and the Muslim women does. What about Western Muslim women? In Saudi Arabia there are many MANY unmarried women and MANY are mothers. There are also MANY who would get a divorce – if they could do it without losing their children.
You like your traditional roles. And there is nothing wrong with that. You think they are Islamically defined- and that’s fine to. But for the record there are many Muslims who do not see it that way.
Please where in the Quran does it say the first 3 generations of Muslims are the model for all who follow? And in what way are they the model?
But I do agree with your conclusion about the need for educated decisions about many things.
jazak Allahu khairan, abu zahra!
these people who are trying to argue their way out of hijab..don’t think they’d dio it if hijab was the way most women dressed as it was at one point. look at victorian dress, for instance.
“As for men or women calling upon their family members to wear the hijab, then they should do so with wisdom and gentleness, and teach, not dictate. And then they have the right to do that, ”
part of a man’s worship is in guiding his women folk.
on the contrary sandy,,a woman is required to obey her husband and to ask permission before leaving the home.
@concerned reader
A woman is required to obey Allah, and he has not asked her to do that. However, if that is how you believe that’s fine. Not all Muslims believe that.
Sandy,
It seems that you are muslim, but please confirm. I have no issue in answering questions, but you are very adamant about what you are saying which makes me reluctant. Not knowing is not a fault in itself. As we understand there are two kinds of ignorance, al-Jahl al-Baseeth and al-Jahl al-Murakkab. Ignorance which is admitted to, and complex ignorance which is, to say the least, complex, as the person claims to know and may even consider themselves as knowing. The first is forgiven for many things, the second is not, and from the definitions of pride, or كبر is to reject the truth.
The owner of the heavens and the earth revealed in His book, {الرجال قوامون على النساء} {Men are Qawwamoon upon the women} an-Nisaa, verse 24. This Qawamah does not only mean they have the upper hand, and that they are the heads of the household, and the guardians of the women, but that they cannot put their responsibilities upon the woman. Rather they must perform the act of Taqweem, which is to provide for, protect, and enjoin the good and forbid the evil upon their womenfolk. This interpretation is consistent through the tafaseer of Ahl as-Sunnah such as Ibn Kathir, al-Jalalayn, etc. I do not know of a different understanding of alQawaamah amongst the Muslims.
As far as from the Sunnah then the narrations in regards to that are plentiful. If you let me know what books you have access to I can point out some narrations for you to look up.
I will also say one thing: from the greatest of sins in Islam, is to speak about the religion without knowledge. Iblees, the devil, is described as {إنما يأمركم باسوء و الفحشاء و أن تقولوا على الله ما لا تعلمون} meaning that ash-Shaitaan commands you with wrongdoing, and Fahshaa (sinful acts and statements), and to say upon (regarding) Allaah that which you do not know. This is something we seek refuge from doing and ask Allaah to forgive us were we to fall into doing so, and He is ever-forgiving of the error of the one who repents.
Also a Muslim by definition is one who believes in the Qur’aan and the authentic Sunnah, all of it. It is not up to a Muslim to pick and choose a belief system. To leave some and choose some is to disbelieve in all. As for leaving doing something (though believing in it) from a weakness in Eemaan, then that is not disbelief, and one should ask for strength and guidance instead of justifying what weakness they have with falsehood. See Surah al-Baqarah, the first five verses and the last three.
I understand you had other questions but let’s start with this and see how it goes. I am not interested in debating so if there isn’t a benefit here we can respectfully close the topic.
I am not asking you any questions, and yes I am Muslim. I am merely pointing out that your’s is not the only understanding of Islam. And of course to remind you that ONLY Allah would be the judge of which type of ignorance is what- not even the scholars can do that. I am not really sure this is the forum for a detailed theological discussion- nor do I think it likely one would change anyone’s mind.
I am familiar witht he way in which you understand things- but not all Muslims understand things the way you do- and it is not because we “pick and choose” though I am sure that is genuinely how you view it. But be careful what you accuse people of. Just because someone is different does not mean they are trying to justify some weakness.
One could equally argue that you “pick and choose” which scholar to follow, which hadith to elevate, and which man’s interpretation you choose to follow.
Men DO have the “upper hand” that is just a fact the Quran acknowledges. If anything that is a test to see if they use that advantage fairly. An example of that would be making sure they have educated their daughters so that they can handle their own finances and support themselves if necessary and never be trapped in an opressive marriage. Institutionalizing the “upper hand” by keeping women out of the way at home and dependant is an example of using their advantage to oppress others.
Believe me, not everyone who asks for strength and guidance arrives at the kinds of conclusions that require a woman to “ask permission” of her husband to leave the house, as though she were a child.
Just to correct. I did ask one question about the first three generations of Muslims.
When this person stated “Also a Muslim by definition is one who believes” they got it wrong. A Muslim, by definition, is someone who submits to God. What, exactly that means, is different in the various sects of Islam, difference schools of thought, ect.
The idea that it is a very grave sin to speak about Islam without having some sort of intensive, multi years education in religion is nonsense. 99.99% of Muslims do not have the right to speak about their own religion under such an idea.
If this had been the case historically, Islam would have died as another in a long line of defunct religions before it ever left the Middle East.
@Abu Sinan
It’s a way of controlling people and shutting them up. But everyone is entitiled to their opinion- and to the expression of it. I do not try to deny others their opinions though they judge their opinions as “knowledgeable” -or else they wouldn’t be sharing them, while at the same time they are suggesting that others are not only “unknowledgable” but “sinful” for having different opinions.
@Sandy,
It is a well known tactic. Here in the US if you question US policy you are unpatriotic. To those who wish to control the Muslim world and the minds of Muslims, if you question their understanding of Islam you are straying outside the bounds of Islam…………siding with the Kuffar, being a hypocite.
Since when did I have to suspend my own brain to become a Muslim? Why do these Muslims think that being a Muslim is akin to being one of the “Borg” in Star Trek where you plug into a central being and cease to have the ability to have your own mind?
These people are the perfect example of why Islam USED to be the center of the world when it came to the sciences. This inability to be able to think for yourself, to believe that there is nothing worth knowing that wasnt thought of 1,000 years ago is the problem.
Me? I prefer old school Islam where you did have the ability to have your own mind, where there was always something new to learn and a new vantage point to look at things.
@Sandy,
Abu Zahrah is really providing you what the majority of Muslims view as the real Islamic interpretation of these issues. He is supported by many of the works from scholars through the time. This even includes teh concepts that you may object to. As an example if you deviate from the teaching knowingly then you are committing a big sin. He can not walk away from that believe as much as not walking away from the believe that women should be the charge of man to support her and also to order her to behave in accordance to the religion.
The issue for many free thinking Muslims like yourself, is you move outside the majority. The majority and the scholars that provide them with the interpretation will consider you an inventor of a different religion. I think that is an OK position, but you must accept that you are changing what is Islam is understood to be. You will not be able to win these scholarly discussions, because the great majority of Islamic research will not support your position.
MoQ
I realize everything you said. But as time goes by I feel almost an obligation to speak. I don’t actually think it likely I’ll convince anyone of anything. But by speaking up it helps let everyone know that not everyone is scripted and in lockstep with each other- and it helps people like myself find each other. For many years I felt like I must be the only one that felt this way. I now know that though I am in the minority there are others.
Also, I can hold my own better than one might expect in a scholarly argument (there are “modern” scholars out there as well)- but I don’t do it much. It’s exhausting and doesn’t change anyone’s mind anyway.
And just to clarify- in my understanding I am walking away from a teaching that is a man’s interpretation. I don’t justify walking away from anything I truly believe is Allah’s will.
I was very interested in some of the accounts women made here of being more harrassed when wearing Abaya and niqaab. I have heard from saudi friends how they get harrassed when fully covered.
Veiling does not save you from being harrassed or being bombarded with papers with phone numbers, or being followed about.
It is so disgusting to have somebody whisper indecent sugestions to you… And all you do is grocery shopping!
What are these men thinking????
Do they really think they have a chance at a clandestine meeting? Or do they do it because they know it makes us feel humiliated and under attack?
And the last place you want to look as a khaleeji woman is in Makkah! Even my friends from the UAE said they would never wear black over the head abayas again. They were harrassed all the time by the religious police. The religious police harrass only the khaleeji women: they leave foreigners alone.
It is such a pity. What should have been a beautiful and spiritual experience turned into constant harrassment.
What are they thinking? Why do they do it? Why do women get harrassed when fully veiled? Why does any woman get harrassed?
Why can’t men just respect women and leave us alone?
@Sandy,
I know that you are capable and there are some scholars/academics out there especially in the west that have different interpretations. However, these are also works of interpretation that happen to have the disadvantage of not being accepted. So they do not define Islam and they are scattered around a wide spectrum of ideas. It is almost a process for academics trying to push a different concept so they can be published. There is also an effort by some to make Islam more palatable to Westerner minds. I do not see much of those works taken seriously. In reality, the Muslim Universities, Mosques and Satellite stations are pushing Islam to a more conservative space.
Now, the issue for Muslims like you that believe in concepts like freedom and equality, is that you cannot reconcile those believes with what is taught by the religion. Wouldn’t be a valid approach to hit the Ctrl-Alt-Del and start reevaluating these concepts without having to drag the Dogma of the religion behind you? I do not think you have to drop the concept of God to do that, but more take a process of saying here is what I believe in. Then reevaluate what Islam teaches and does it fit in your thinking. Issues like equality of women and freedoms can be a start for this reevaluation.
Note: I am not assuming that you have/have not gone through such process. I am just posing the question.
I believe everyone owes him/her self such evaluation. Religion is about setting rules which are presented in texts.In Islam those are the Quran, Hadith and many scholarly works. The rules are there to keep control of the followers and by definition those rules stop or severely slow down humans from changing to a new set of rules to fit realities of their new world . This slow down of progress is exactly why I think Religions are destructive. Humans have discovered better rules based on secular principles, which far surpassed any provided by religions. It is a shame that we as humans keep referring back to rules invented thousands of years ago at the cost of limiting ourselves.
@MoQ
I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you are saying. And I think people should evaluate themselves and their belief systems. Otherwise they are just following and not choosing something.
I do disagree with “Religion is about setting rules which are presented in texts.” and “The rules are there to keep control of the followers” -not in the sense that this isn’t exactly what happens much of the time- but for me, that generally hasn’t been how I see religion. To me religion is about my relationship with Allah and showing my appreciation and asking for what help I need. My perception of Allah has always been of someone trying to help guide me towards a more productive, kinder, meaningful life- not someone trying to control and punish all the time- except in terms of natural consequences for our choices and actions and ultimately some form of justice- since justice is something that we can only strive for here.
I have had patches in my life- when I first moved to Saudi Arabia for example, where I started getting caught up in all the “rules” and wanting to do it “right”. Certainly for me, it was unhealthy, spiritually and emotionally. But maybe some people get genunuine comfort and guidence from inflating a scripture into a complex series of rules. And thats fine, as long as they don’t try to make me do it to- and as long as they’re not hurting anybody.
Also, I do think people have trouble changing rules whether they are secular OR religious in nature. People cling to failed ideologies, to stagnant cultural practices etc. all the time. Change and progress seems to be difficult to large chunks of humanity.
Anyway to explain my entire spiritual/religious journey is probably beyond the scope of this blog post.
@Sandy,
I think we may have a difference in definitions. I define a relationship with a God as spirituality. Religion includes much more. Dogma is a huge part of any religion. One cannot completely ignore the influence of the Dogma, because it influences the majority who represent the religion. Effectively defining the religion in all areas such as Law, Life Style and Politics.
I think this discussion was beneficial.
Thank you for your comments Sandy. I am so glad that you spoke out. Sometimes, in any religion, the rules themselves can become a “shirk”. I would love to hear about your spiritual/religious journey. Do you have a blog?
I do find this an interesting discussion though.
I think MoQ made a very good point. Please don’t take this critical Sandy but your comment sounded more like believing in Jesus than believing in Allah to me. The Jesus-christianity is like this: a god which is kind and loving and guiding one to a higher spiritual consiousness. Nothing wrong with that but that is not what the old testament is about. And neither is the quran.
And I suppose Mohammed realised from the early christians in Arabia that christianity had been messed about with quite a bit. After all a lot of bookburning and reshaping of christianity happened less than a century before. And so he was very clear when he added to the quran the command that it was never to be changed. Now of course there has been a lot of twisting and changing to Islam as well, but you’re still not supposed to do that.
So if you and AbuSinan are saying that it’s not really in the Quran and hadith, women having to be subservient to men, Kuffar having to be killed, apostates having to be killed, oketc. etc. then you are changing the religions and basically believing something else.
And to me it is clear that religions are constructed to control people. Both Christianity and Islam are very clearly trying to control and subdue populations. Calling for submission and obedience to scholars and rulers sanctioned by whatever god rules the religion.
Creating dogma which the believers have to subscribe to absolutely. These dogmas only change when the majority of the believers all change their heart and mind.
Until the majority of muslims consider your interpretation of Islam as Islam, you both can still be regarded as innovators and that is bidah.
I think you two can develop this re-invention of Islam because you grew up in the west, where you are allowed to think critically and for yourself.
I would like to add that I like your interpretation of Islam much better. Whish you were the majority.
@MoQ
Dogma is a huge part of religion for many people- and for the religions, as institutions, themselves. But there are also non-religious dogmatic people- for example driven by Nationalism or Patriotism. And there is alot of inconsistancy within the orthodox interpretation of my faith. If you ask a Muslim about clergy etc. they will tell you there is no intercession with Allah- that your relationship is one on one- that there is no clergy. And then if you ask them about scholars you will get another story- thought the names have been changed. Some people seem to NEED to be bossed around, and a list of rules to follow in order to feel their actions have worth.
You are certainly correct I cannot ignore much of Islamic dogma. But I can try
@Kristine,
Thank you so much. No I don’t have a blog. Maybe someday!
@Aaffke
Interesting you thought I sounded like a Christian. Some of the most hateful, plain ole mean people I have met have been “true” Christians.
Actually I think the ability to “change” is a potential strength for Islam (not that it’s been done in that matter.) How else can it stay relevant?
It may sound like I’m splitting hairs here but I think PEOPLE use religion to control others- that doesn’t necessarily mean the religion itself is inherently a control device.
I know some people may consider me an innovater and proposing “bidah”. My simple answer is I really don’t care what they think. I think a lot of what has crept into orthodoxy is bidah. And I for sure think that the manner in which hadith is used is full of bidah.
I’m sure my western upbringing contributed to my way of looking at it. I have to say though that the first Muslim community I met was atypical and so I was not overly exposed to all the excessive dogma from the get go. I didn’t realize how atypical till later.
Got to sleep. I don’t even know if I’m making sense anymore!
Sandy, I meant the ”nice” christians, the nasty ones are rather rare in my part of the Netherlands, and located mostly in our ”bible belt”. Ther nice ones go on about love and kindness and being nice to each other, and actually practice that. It seems to me that America is teeming with the nasty ones!
Go to sleep!!!!
PS, I want to tank you too for sharing. It’s very generous of you.
@Sandy,
I do like your definition of separating from Dogma. As a person I think you will do well… thanks
@sandy,
how can you say that a woman is not required to obey her husband in tje light of the following:
“Ibn Hibbaan narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If a woman prays her five (daily prayers), fasts her month (Ramadaan), guards her chastity and obeys her husband, it will be said to her: ‘Enter Paradise from whichever of the gates of Paradise you wish.’” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 660. “
also this one regarding the wife’s obedience to her husband:
Ibn Maajah (1853) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Abi Awfa said: When Mu’aadh came from Syria, he prostrated to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who said, “What is this, O Mu’aadh?” He said, I went to Syria and saw them prostrating to their archbishops and patriarchs, and I wanted to do that for you. The Messenger of Allaah (S) said, “Do not do that. If I were to command anyone to prostrate to anyone other than Allaah, I would have commanded women to prostrate to their husbands. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, no woman can fulfil her duty towards Allaah until she fulfils her duty towards her husband. If he asks her (for intimacy) even if she is on her camel saddle, she should not refuse.
and this:
Ahmad (19025) and al-Haakim narrated from al-Husayn ibn Muhsin that his paternal aunt came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for something and he dealt with her need, then the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do you have a husband?” She said, “Yes.” He said: “How are you with him?” She said, “I do not neglect any of his rights except those I am unable to fulfil.” He said: “Look at how you are with him, for he is your paradise and your hell” – i.e., he is the cause of you entering Paradise if you fulfil his rights and the cause of your entering Hell if you fall short in that.
if a woman gets older and has a son,her son is required to obey her.
There is a hadeeth concerning this issue which was narrated by al-Haakim from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) who said: I asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), “Who has the most right over a woman?” He said: “Her husband.” I said, “Who has the most right over a man?” He said, “His mother.”
Goodmorning Sandy! I bet you love to wake up to these comments!
Here you have it from the source! Your whole purpose in life is to obey your husband! you will only reach heaven if you do what he wants, when he wants, even on the saddle of a camel.
Do you have any camelsaddles?
I can understand why men like Islam so much…
I have more problems understanding why women like it.
Unless the are masochistic….
By the way? What sort of kinky stuff can you do on camelsaddles???????
See what I mean by dogma. They have hundreds of these hadiths too regulate every little thing you do.
You cannot enter heaven if your husband is not happy with you!!!!
Thanks concerned reader, for providing perfect examples.
wow, the mind boggles…
Sigh- now I could take these one by one- but why bother? There are many ways to refute these. First, of all -only one is fully referenced with it’s classification- a big omission if you want me to consider anything. We could also get into the charactar of Abu Hurayra around whose charactar as a narratar of hadith there is a lot of controversy.
They do flatly condratict the Quran, and many other hadith in which it is clear we are to obey Allah- not our husbands. If Allah really wanted to make that connection equating his requirements with a husbands requirements (and it would seem odd that an All powerful being would do that), he could certainly have done so directly. Anyway, those that want to obey their husbands are certainly free to do so. It’s not a choice I could ever make.
@Aafke,
You wrote:
“I think you two can develop this re-invention of Islam because you grew up in the west, where you are allowed to think critically and for yourself.”
I dont think Sandy, nor myself, have “re-invented” Islam at all, rather we just have a much more accurate understanding of it than others. I would argue it is the Islamists that have “re-invented” or more correctly, twisted Islam, into something it isnt.
I think the truth is, because we were raised in the West we are able to look at the religion with clear eyes, not tainted by various cultural issues that are the bane of a true understanding of Islam.
I also think, at least my case, having grown up in a scene where I didnt care what others thought of me and where rebellion against “the majority” was seen as a positive trait, I never felt the need to jump on the “holier than thou” band wagon that so many converts do.
Thank God, I always have been and always will be able to, think for myself. It’s a pity there isnt more of this in the Muslim world and that so many Muslims are actually afraid of independent critical thought.