Bicultural marriages between a Saudi national and a foreign wife will be challenging. It is an undisputed fact that any marriage will have low points and high points at times. Therefore a bicultural marriage will likely have even more challenges due to the distinctions in culture, tradition, heritage, backgrounds and family upbringing.
For many who meet and marry a Saudi while he is outside of the Kingdom he will likely display one of his many faces. Because the Saudi society and culture is among the most closed there are few foreigners who can truly penetrate to the innermost family circle let alone decipher and understand the mindset of the Saudi man. The Saudi man has the capability to change his face and appearance as easy as a chameleon.
It should not be forgotten that he likely was raised and perhaps still accustomed to the segregation of men and women. Many Saudi men because of the culture are not familiar or comfortable with a relationship style that falls outside of their cultural norm. They may not be as responsive or capable to talk about feelings because it is foreign to them. In the traditional Saudi relationship the man and woman as husband and wife have clearly defined roles and expectations. Whereas on the other hand a foreign wife’s exposure and understanding of relationships may have her expect greater interaction and partnership than a Saudi man knows how to give.
These brief paragraphs also highlight typical reasons why many bicultural marriages within Saudi Arabia fail. The foreign wife may see different faces on her husband because he has returned back to his closed and private society where segregation is more of a norm. Most individuals also tend to fall into the mold in which they were raised as well. If a Saudi man’s parents were not openly affectionate in front of others then he will likely be the same in Saudi Arabia. If a foreign wife was accustomed to displays of affection regardless if others were witness, such as hugs, she may not understand why her husband while in Saudi Arabia will reject and discourage such displays. She may tell him her feelings and he in turn may be feeling pressured trying to please her without offending his culture or family. Disconnects in understanding what each is attempting to convey to the other is critical to a successful bicultural marriage between a Saudi national and his foreign wife.
But then that begs the question of measuring success. After how many years of marriage does one view a bicultural marriage with a Saudi as successful? After a child is born of the union? After one year of marriage? Five years of marriage? Ten or more years of marriage?
Filed under: America, Dress, Freedoms, Saudi Arabia, Saudi Living, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, Saudi education, Women Issues, culture, friendship, gender, islam, relationships, religion | Tagged: America, blogging, culture, culture shock, customs, gender, gender issues, heritage, islam, KSA, Love, marriage, places, Relationship, romance, Saudi, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, women
To answer your last question, Carol, I sadly say you can never tell…
A close relative of mine fell in love with an American girl who converted to Islam and seemed very sweet….they came to live in Saudi Arabia and they had 4 kids…
After 20 years of marriage, my reltive found his wife in bed with an Egyptian guy who used to be his co-oworker…
She begged him forgiveness and he did for the sake of his kids (which was stupid of him)…after less than a year, she stole around a million SR from his bank account and flew to the USA …
Another marraige also in my family ended in divorce after more than 33 years! Can you imagine? It was a civil divorce, though and my relative and his ex-wife are in good terms….The husband is one the sweetest men one might ever know…he’s from the old generation of Saudi men who are very open-minded, liberal, and educated…he even allowed his daughter to marry an American whome she fell in love with…..He’s a famous doctor in Jeddah…everybody used to call them the happy couple, but I guess the cultural gap was too big for her despite those years…
I feel very sad for that lady in particular becasue she used to be very close to me…
A third funny marriage in the family lasted for 8 months only….the reason is strange…she wanted children…he didn’t….she wanted him to be a better Muslims, but he wasn’t….he told her i married an American woman to be less of a practicing Muslim
sorry for my long stories…the list of bi-cultural marraiges in my family is endless, but most of them are successful…still you can never know..when and how…
thanks, carol
I think it differs for everyone. It depends on what you’re parameters of success are.
I consider mine a success , having known him for over 25+ yrs. and being married for over 2 decades. happy life , could it disintegrate in the future, sure , but the posiblilty is low.
F is looking forward to the day when it’ll just be us again.. after a long long time …thinks they will be the best yrs , no struggling for money ,career setteled, kids done , still in good health .
I still don’t know how i feel about an empty nest . hate to let the remaining one go …. but i must i guess..and i’m looking forward to the time.
Length of the relationship is a criterion for evaluating success, but not the only one. The couple could be in an unhappy or abusive situation and still stay together, but that wouldn’t be a “successful” marriage. Children are not absolutely essential to a healthy relationship. A couple may choose not to have children and still have a happy union.
I did have a question for Bedu as to why she posits Saudi bicultural marriages as between a Saudi man and western woman. How about the other way around: Saudi woman, western man? Is it that this is a lot less common? More Saudi women are going abroad to study nowadays, so it’s likely that they may also enter into bicultural marriages. If the man converts to Islam or is Muslim, could the couple go through the permission process to have the union recognized in Saudi Arabia? Or is marriage to a non-Saudi not allowed for Saudi women?
@californiadreamin
“Or is marriage to a non-Saudi not allowed for Saudi women?”
Saudi women are allowed to marry non-Saudis if they are Muslims, but of course the process is long (as any process in Saudi Arabia)
I know a few Saudi women who are married to Egyptians, British, Iraqis, Jordanians, Lebanese, Iranians, and Morrocans.
Btw…Saudi women marrying non-Saudis is not something new to our society, but it’s not acceptable in all families.
This is an extremely fascinating subject for me. At my age and state of health, if I were to marry again, you will have witnessed a miracle from Allah SWT of megalithic proportions. LOL
Much to my astonishment, I have been “adopted” by a young Muslim couple who are both college students here and my lack of knowlege about how I should conduct myself has me really rattled.
I have known several American women over the years who have married Saudi Nationals and it has been a mixed bag. In one case, it was pure Green Card Fraud, and now he has yet another wife. She must still do as he says because he threatens to take the children back to Saudia.
I know several other marriages to Saudi guys and they all seem very happy. I do notice that many of the wives make periodic trips back to the states to visit. One has told me that when she is in Saudia, his mom is the boss, and she works very hard to endear herself to the mom.
It would be nice to visit Saudia, but as a divorced woman, I doubt that it will happen.
Ma Salaama
Hala
A third funny marriage in the family lasted for 8 months only….the reason is strange…she wanted children…he didn’t….she wanted him to be a better Muslims, but he wasn’t….he told her i married an American woman to be less of a practicing Muslim
Those are quite interesting! This one above is more my speed. I don’t want kids and many men do!
My husband’s aunt ( mom’s sister) – born raised saudi, got married to an indian, never went back ( don’t think they applied for approval either. I always asked her and she said she never felt the need to – that’s so sad.., he was a muslim and a religious scholar so shouldn’t have been an issue. They never had kids and raised my spouse from the age of 15. so they are his parents for all purposes. I consider that a very successful marriage but i wonder how it would have fared if the man has to assimilate in her culture ..
@مها نور إلهي,
There are Saudi women out there married to Western men, like my wife. I know of two other Saudi females married to Western, convert Muslims.
The approval process does seem harder for Saudi females marrying non Saudis, and even harder if they are not from Arab countries.
As to the families, I think they are a lot less likely to accept such a marriage. It is a cultural issue in that Saudi men are allowed to do certain things that would never be allowed for a Saudi female.
In some cases it is blatant hypocrisy, like a former well known diplomat here in DC who ran the Cultural Mission who was married to a white Western woman but flat out refused to let his well educated daughters, in their 30s, marry even another Arab, let alone a white Western Muslim man.
hi American Bedu. I came here first time then read abou this article well this is so interesting!!
I would like to add your blog to my blog…www.thepwjo.wordpress.com Thanks !
We don’t know how the marrriage carry smoothly …
I am still a single & found my culture is a bit like western as well as like Saudi culture…in Asia. It is just understanding of each others and trust all in result and for furture…
Not allowing the women to marry into another ethnicity is not an exclusive Saudi behaviour and is in fact much more than hypocrisy – it has to do with the notion of prestige and honour of the family/nation/ethnicity that a woman is supposed to embody. Hence, bringing another group’s woman is a matter of gaining prestige while giving one’s daughter to another ethnic group is equivalent to losing honour.
It has the allegory of conquests associated with it that was very prominent in pre-modern times, but has become blurred now. The basic rule however, still exists in most traditional societies including non-Muslim ones. Hence, giving one’s daughter to even a Muslim Arab who is a foreigner is equivalent to losing face in one’s own society. Saudi Arabia simply institutionalises it by making a law about complicated approval, but this tendency does exist in many cultures.
Aisha,
I saw your blog and was quite impressed by your ideals and also by your insightful way of explaining Saudi Arabia.
@Abu Sinan
Yes, as I said, Saudi women are allowed to marry non-Saudis, but the procedure is complicated. And I guess the rules that the Saudi governent has set for the Saudi women married to non-Saudis are to protect the Saudi woman and her children if divorce occurs.
My aunt married a non-Saudi and had a son, and when she got divorced her son got the Saudi nationality and stayed with her by law.
thanks
“to protect the Saudi woman and her children if divorce occurs.”
too bad that same care and concern isnt given to nonSaudi women married…then divorced from Saudi men.
More hypocrisy…hmmm?
Abu Sinan,
Any government concerned about granting its citizenship to a child born from a woman of its country and married to a foreigner can simply make a rule that such a child will be entitled to this citizenship and the mother can keep the child. They don’t have to make the couple go through the harrassment of a long wait for marriage approval in order to protect the citizenship of the child and to let the child stay with the mother. In any case they don’t seem to be so concerned about letting the child stay with the mother. Manal wrote about it sometime back.
@coolred
this is not hypocracy…any country can set laws that protect its people…and as far as I know the custody goes to the American woman if she is married to a Saudi…if countries to protect its people, isn’t Saudi Arabia’s fault? No one is agianst setting rules that protect people from any sort of injustice…
and please don’t tell me that the American government doesn’t have strict laws regarding the children of American women….
One of my Saudi relatives divorced his American wife, and the children are with her now because of that law…
Any country is free to set the rules that protect its nationales..if people or organizations fail to apply these laws, is it condiered hypocracy?
so..just calm down..no body in Saudi Arabia wants to hurt American women, but if an American woman chooses to marry a Saudi jerk, that’s not the government’s fault.
No government in the world can control the bahvior of jerks and the evidence is clear in all Western and ME countries…what could all the American laws do to protect women from abuse or rape? They surly have great plans and have made great efforts to solve women’s problems, but could they stop the problems from happening for good?
Calm down and no need for accusations because you know that evey country in this world is full of hypocrates whether they are under the name of law, religion, or politics…we are all women and we all agree that women must be treated fairly, so let’s not allow a bunch of politicains and law makers see us fight
While I cannot speak to Saudi bicultural marriages, I know a bit about the cultural collisions that can occur in any bicultural relationship. I have seen very similar sitations with Haitians who marry other cultures. The interesting is that the different expectations come from both Haitian women and Haitian men when they marry a foreigner. For instance, I know of a couple who met after the American wife had spent some time with the Peace Corps in Haiti. They got along very well and he appreciated her understanding of his culture. When they made their first trip to Haiti together, the wife was very disappointed to see that the husband – usually very considerate about spending time with her – not only wanted to go out alone with friends and family, but didn’t really want to tell her where he was going. Since she is fluent in Haitian Creole, I think he felt there was no way to get around it. In the end, she did not enjoy her stay with him and didn’t understand this other “face”.
I don’t think there’s ever any way to know for sure when a marriage succeeds. Actually, the only way I think is when the two people spend the rest of their lives together…
sorry…correction:
(if countries fail to protect its people, is it Saudi Arabia’s fault?)
@Maha,
In our opinion, those of people we know, including diplomats at the embassy, the difficulty in Saudi women marrying foreigners has more to do with controlling the money of the families involved, tribal customs and honor, and worrying about the possibility of having to give out Saudi residency/citizenships to their foreign spouses and children.
“Protecting the women” isnt really accurate. It is about “protecting” the fathers, uncles, brothers and male members of their family.
@Maha
When it comes to American custody battles in the USA, most children are placed in the care of their mothers. PERIOD. Sometimes it baffles even me why a mother, whom I know to be mediocre at her greatest role, is given the custody over the father. However, in this country, the general consensus is that children should be with their mothers. Most of us believe that to take a child from its mother is the most cruel of actions. There is no doubt in my mind that your relative would’ve lost custody or had to share anyway. Although, being Arab (non-American) didn’t help. In this country, it is recognized, more so than in other places, that women are just as intelligent and worthy as men. We believe that their nature allows them to better connect with their children (which helps them develop to their full potential) So…what I’m saying is…the women won the custody battle not simply because she was American, but because she was a woman.
@ Daisy
Although, not permitting a women to marry outside of her culture, isn’t exclusive to Saudi Arabia…it isn’t a LAW in many other places, as it is in Saudi. That’s the difference. Although it is sometimes a cultural faux pas and one’s family may not like it, there is nothing in American laws at least that can prevent her from the marriage. American women don’t face penalties of jail time (by the courts) or honor killings (at the hands of their fathers). I understand why groups of people encourage common-culture relationships. I think in a lot of ways, parents just want what is best for their children. No one wants to see their son or daughter in stressful situation (which is often the case when bi-cultural marriages are fighting to stay alive).
Culturewatch,
Yes, that’s what I said – Saudi Arabia institutionalises it in its legal procedure, while in other traditional places it’s a part of culture – I think you missed that sentence in my comment and also the word “traditional”. I know in modern societies it does not happen – it’s an aspect of traditional societies. In my country too, the law allows all adults to marry whomever they like and it’s illegal to force someone to marry against his or her wishes – it’s the families that create problems in many cases.
I wasn’t exactly defending Saudi Arabia – was just making an anthropological kind of comparison. There is no reason for me to defend Saudi Arabia – I have never lived there and am never going to go there after reading all these Saudi blogs. I am simply too frightened by now!
I understand your very logical argument about common-culture relationships. However, I am all for inter-cultural relationships – if only everyone married outside one’s community, ethnicity and nationality, there would be more understanding of each other’s cultures in the world.
About children’s custody – I think in most Western countries the mother gets the children – it has to do with the fact that traditionally women have taken care of the children and they are seen as naturally more attached to them than men.
But in my country it’s different – if the child is too young – below 7 years, the mother gets the children, unless she is not in a condition to take care of them properly, in which case the father gets them. Basically, it is seen who is in a better condition to take care of the children. But if the child is more than 7, the court asks the child with whom s/he wants to live and the child gets to choose the parent s/he wants to go with. I think this is not a bad system either.
I also know a woman, whose son was only a year old and the court wanted to award her the custody of the child, but she refused to raise the child. As a kind of punishment for her ex-husband, she said he should raise this young child on his own, so that he would understand the trouble a mother has to go through while raising children. She further argued that in any case the child carries the father’s family name, so the father should take the pain of raising the child. But of course this is a rare case – not all mothers want to leave their 1 year child and go away.
@Maha
How did your aunt’s son get Saudi citizenship? As per Saudi law, Saudi citizenship is granted to children through the father but not through the mother. Wouldn’t giving Saudi women the right to pass citizenship to their children be a better way of “protecting” them than having an impossibly stringent marriage permission process? There was an article in Arab News about the uncertain future that children of Saudi women divorced from non-Saudis face because they are left in Saudi Arabia with no citizenship rights:
http://www.arabnews.com/page=1§ion=0&article=78135&d=20&m=8&y=2006
Whoops bad link. Trying again.
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=78135&d=20&m=8&y=2006
@Abu Sinan
Yes you are right. Protecting the money of the family is part of it, but it’s not the only reason as I have mentioned before.
Let me just tell you something that might sound offending….it’s not the case in every marriage..but it’s true in a lot of cases I have seen around me.
Usually, (not always) when Saudi women choose to marry a non-Saudi, especially an Arab, it’s because the woman has lived all her life abraod or because she’s too old to marry a suitable Saudi. And usually such a woman is very rich and not attractive.
when we see a 40 something rich unattractive woman married to a 20 something Lebanese (for instance), we tend to beleive that he has marreid her for her money.
I don’t think the way when i see such a couple, but this is how the people here think. Usually people start to question the reasons behind such a marriage. Why would a young Syrian guy for instance marry an old unattractive woman while he could get married to a young and beautiful girl back in Syria?
And please note that I am just giving examples…I am not implying that Syrian or Lebanse men always marry Saudis for money.
Yet I have seen many cases of 40 or 50 soemthing women married to young Arab men and then being deceived, abused, and stolen.
Eventually, the husband escapes to his country with a good sum of money which allows him to live like a prince for the rest of his life. Many Saudi women have suffered the consequences of such marriages, and that’s why the rule emerged.
That was in the 60′s throughout the mid 80′s, but now things are different. Saudi women choose to marry non-Saudis because they are in love, not because they want to catch a husband that they cannot find in their own country.
I hope I clarified the point from the Saudi people’s perceptive …it’s not what I beleive in, though…I am an old woman who has married a long time ago, so I’m just an observer of marriages and divorces
@culturewatch
My aunt who was married to an non-Saudi had full custody, and her ex-husband never cared about his son and never provided anything for him, but that’s only one case.
I agree with you that taking a child from his/her it’s the most horrible thing to do. It’s not healthy for both the mother and the child, but in divorce, there are always victims.
thanks
@Californiadreamin
You have added a very eye-opening article. I was more interested in the reasons behind the marriages than the future of the children.
I don’t know about those women in the article, but I am sure that my cousin got the Saudi nationality when he was about 16. Now he works at Aramco as a Saudi citizin.
I also know another Saudi woman whose childeren have the Saudi nationality.
thanks
@Californiadreaming,
You also need to realise that Saudi law is NOT like most Western laws. It can be, and regularly is, circumvented and flauted by those who have money and power.
So if you have money or connections you can do things that are against the law for others. You can bypass restrictions, you can have things done quicker and in a different fashion than others.
For instance, when my father in law was alive my oldest sister in law married an Egyptian. As we have been discussing here Saudi women who marry non Saudis take a long time to get their marriages approved.
My father in law walked into Prince Badr’s office and had the marriage aoproved in five minutes. That it is how it works in Saudi. It was his connection to the Prince that allowed him to bypass a process that might take months, even years for others.
If you have $10,000 or some other monetary amount you can skip the process as well. That is how it works in the Middle East. There is no clear and transparent process. Anything goes for the right person or the right amount.
@Maha,
Living abroad does make a difference. It is my experience, however, that it more often has to do with explaining away valid reasons as to why a Saudi woman would marry a non Saudi.
I have met more than a few Saudi women who just REFUSE to marry a Saudi because of the way they know they will be treated. They dont want to be second class partners in their own marriage, they dont want the cultural baggage that comes with it.
We know well educated Saudi women who have, or want to marry non Saudis. They arent old, there isnt anything “wrong” with them.
It makes Saudis, especially Saudi men, feel better to think that there must be something wrong with a Saudi woman who doesnt want a Saudi man. It is easier than looking at themselves in a critical light.
@Abu Sinan
I deeply believe that no one owes any woman an explanation if she chooses to marry a certain man regardless of his nationality, but people here always ask for reasons ..and this happens with any marriage; not just with a bicultural one…of course the intensity and (rudeness) of the questions increase in cases of a bicultural marriage.
It’s true that there are many Saudi women who refuse to marry Saudis and my aunt is one of them…she’s 50 now..married 5 times to different men of various nationalites…haven’t found the man who loves and respects her for what she is…I don’t think she will
Personally, I never thought of marrying a non-Saudi even though I lived abraod for a while and mixed with people of different nationalites, and I have my reasons, but it’s not the suitable place to discuss them here.
) marrying a man from another culture would never cross my mind. Not because Saudi men are better than other men, but because a good well-educated and honest Saudi man is best for a Saudi woman. This is not something against other nationalities…if i were an American woman, I would never think of marrying a Saudi or even a British man…Marriage is a VERY tough commitment…it’s hard work…it’s constant hard work to maintain so many things….having a husband of a different culture will just add to its difficulty….
Maybe I have never met a non-Saudi man who is unique to the extent that I put myself into a bicultural marriage with all its challanges and complications…
And even now..If I have a choice (apparantly I don’t because I am married
I am saying this out of experience because my husband comes from a very different cultural background (although we are both Saudis)….we had to go through lots of challanges in order to make our marraige work……I can imagine the challenges that face people in a bicultural marraige because I have lived (slightly) in such a marriage.
You said:
” I have met more than a few Saudi women who just REFUSE to marry a Saudi because of the way they know they will be treated. They dont want to be second class partners in their own marriage, they dont want the cultural baggage that comes with it.”
By the same token, a lot of Saudi men refuse to marry Saudi women. They know how they are going to be treated…a demanding wife..lazy..dependant…costs a lot…spoiled…irresponsible…etc…
But i think that all of these accuasations on both sides are just generalizations ..based on what they hear or see…not based on their own experiences..
“it makes Saudis, especially Saudi men, feel better to think that there must be something wrong with a Saudi woman who doesnt want a Saudi man. It is easier than looking at themselves in a critical light.”
Yes you are right….yet in some cases it’s true..it can also be said about Saudi men marrying non-Saudis, which is also true to some extent.
They just don’t have a life…that’s why they are busy with other people’s lives.
You see we are in a huge society, and passing judgements and making generalizations is so misleading and unfair.
Everybody has their own reasons for getting married even within the same culture. .. I just wonder why people make such a fuss about someone getting married….when I got engaged, everyone in the family started asking: why him? why now? who is he?…they kept babbling for three years until my other cousin got married
Oh..i got a headache remembering all that nonsense…
“@coolred
this is not hypocracy…any country can set laws that protect its people…and as far as I know the custody goes to the American woman if she is married to a Saudi…if countries to protect its people, isn’t Saudi Arabia’s fault? No one is agianst setting rules that protect people from any sort of injustice…
and please don’t tell me that the American government doesn’t have strict laws regarding the children of American women….
One of my Saudi relatives divorced his American wife, and the children are with her now because of that law…
Any country is free to set the rules that protect its nationales..if people or organizations fail to apply these laws, is it condiered hypocracy?”
but America doesnt have the sponsorship system…which means that the Saudi husband can have his wife kicked out and never able to see her children again…once the sponsorship is taken away…not to mention…her ability to get back into the kingdom all on her own….just to see her children is almost nil. In america…divorce breaks up the family…but one spouse doesnt get kicked out the country and denied access to the children…just because its the LAW and a venegeful spouse CAN.
@coolred
Well… I’ve never heard of a Saudi husband doing so…what I always hear is the opposite…the American wife leaves the country with the kids and refuses to return and refuses to let the children see their father…
I think it’s just a matter if hate and revenge between divorced men and women…and always…the kids pay a very high price…
I just wish to hear about any couple who had a civil divorce…
“we couln’t work it out together…ok you go your way..I will move on…and our kids will always be our kids and their well-being is our priority..”
What’s wrong with that? Why can’t people use their minds when they get divorced?
This divorce thing makes me sick..
مها نور إلهي
Divorce is indeed a nasty business…and whatever maturity a couple might have had during the marriage flies out the window as they fall into a grip of altered mental state when it comes to their former spouse…
that is why, in the USA anyway, they have laws and courts and social service system to try to prevent some of this nonsense occurring. Ideally, a couple will leave each other on decent terms and the kids will be their first priority. when that isn’t the case the court system tries to step in and make it a more even situation. The judge will hear both sides and if the couple can’t work it out they will often have a mediator who can come in and help negotiate the situation. A social worker might be assigned to the case and unless one of the parents is a foreseeable flight risk(meaning kidnapper with the kids) or a horrible alcoholic or in some other way not good for the kids, joint custody of some sort will be worked out. the social worker might be present when one of the parents visits with the kids or maybe not. There are options of sorts that can be worked out and forced on the parents in some cases for the best interest of the children…which might help reduce a vengeful spouse keeping the other parent from seeing their kids if they have been a good parent thus far. In America if the Saudi man is staying he might have some measure of protection to see his children unless he beat them or something. Sadly it doesn’t seem to be the reverse in KSA.
@Maha,
You write “but because a good well-educated and honest Saudi man is best for a Saudi woman”.
That is an opinion, yet you state it like it is fact. I have heard many Saudi women say that once a Saudi woman gets educated that no Saudi man will be good for her. That is their opinion, you have yours. It is subjective, so to state it like it is fact is wrong.
From an Islamic standpoint I think it is unIslamic and actually is against the Sunnah of the Prophet. You’ll find that not all of his wives came from his country, so teh Sunnah is to marry people from everywhere. The deen teaches that the only thing that seperates us is how pious we are, not where we come from.
As to the reasons why some Saudi women refuse to marry a Saudi man you imply it is based on generalisations, not what they have seen. I couldnt disagree with you more. The Saudi females I have known who refuse to marry Saudi men and have married non Saudis did so DIRECTLY because of the experiences they have SEEN in their lives, not because of some vague generalisations. When they see their aunts, sisters, mother, cousins, ect marry Saudis and then get treated like dirt and have no recourse, whether in the family, legally or society, then it is hard to blame them.
The system in Saudi is stacked against Saudi women.
Anyway, I think people should be free to marry whom they want. I think the Saudi government steps outside of the bounds of Islam when they require additional requirements to recognise a marriage that is ALREADY accepted by God.
Who are they to say no to something that God Himself has made halal?
To make definitive guiding principles about what kind of a marriage match is best for what kind of man or woman is not merely stating an opinion or a fact, it shows a tendency to restrict the freedom of the people to decide their own life partners. It shows the impact of a social conditioning of a non-democratic environment, which is exactly what Saudi Arabia is. Of course, if we look at it this way, the people who think like this are not at fault, they are simply trapped by their social conditioning imposed upon them by their controlling State – without even realising it, and so much so that even an international exposure doesn’t break their restrictive social conditioning.
@Abu Sinan
Maybe you understood me wrong, but the whole time I was expreessing (my opinion), not Islam’s opinion, and I wasn’t stating anything as a fact.
I do beleive that it is the right of any human being to marry whoever he or she wants and in Islam it si of course Halal, but you got off topic a bit. We are not discussing the issue of bicultural marraiges from an Islamic stand; we are discussing it from a social stand. If we were discussing it from an Islamci view, there would be no discussion. The thing is that Islam gives you many options and leaves the decision to you to organize your life and set your priorties …etc based on the environment that you live in…otherwise all Muslims in the world would be a copy of each other, which is not what Islam is calling for.
From an Islamic view, any marriage between a man and a woman is allowed. you just need two witnesses and the couple are legally married. In the past, they wouldn’t document their marriages, but now we must document our marriage contracts, so does this mean that the government is enforcing on us an unheavenly rule?
I said in this post and in other posts that “it’s only me”…I like Saudi men and I see them the best choice for a Saudi woman…but does this mean that I criticize or judge any Saudi woman who married a non-Saudi? of course not….I am from a family of many bicultural marriages, and I only saw a few of them work just like your Saudi friends who’ve seen the women in their families mistreated by Saudi men…
I am not saying the Saudi system regarding marriage is great, and I don’t agree about everything it states, but many people know that a bilcultural marriage is a challange and that it works in few cases..it’s not because of the saudi system or any other imposed system…it’s because the couples sometimes fail to see what’s coming ahead in such a marriage.
Yet if they are well-aware of the challanges that might face them, the chances of having a successful marriage increase.
And again….I am happy with my Saudi husband and I respect the men in my family a great deal; the ones who are married to Saudis and the ones who are married to non-Sauids.
Maybe if I had suffered from abuse or mistreatment, my opinion would be very different.
But apparently, a happy woman shouldn’t have a say in such matters
and obviously people listen to a Saudi woman only when she complains and asks for sympathy and help.
Had I said that I am oppressed and tortured, the whole blog would have supported me. but just because I defied the ready-made (image) that everyone has about the Saudi women, people started to look at me doubtfully.
I wonder why does it annoy some people to see a successful and satisfied Saudi woman?
And just for the record, I am not happy because I am Saudi, but becasue I am a proactive person who knows how to make the best of any bad situation…I leave the wining and the “victim” attitude to other Saudi women who enjoy being patted on.
Maha…we are not negating your experience and or opinion…we are expressing our own opinion that the “law” in place that makes it incredibly hard for Saudi women (and many other Arab women of Arab countries) to marry whom they choose are draconian and out of place in 2009. If you, or her, happily marry their Saudi man, then that is perfectly wonderful and everyone should be so happy.
I mean everyone should have the RIGHT TO CHOOSE to be so happy…..that is all.
@Maha,
When we are talking about Saudi Arabia and it’s government then EVERYTHING is about Islam. Saudi Arabia claims to be an Islamic state that runs it’s society according to Islamic law. So when the government then sets into place laws and regulations that go AGAINST Islam then of course we have to talk about what is halal and haram in Islam.
If we were talking about a normal society, I’d agree with you, but in Saudi culture, law and society all mix and intermingle.
Your opinion, and those like you, are what cause the Saudi government and establishment to go against Islam and for the Saudi government to think that they have the right to give a “yes or no” to something that God has okayed.
When they do this they set themselves up BEFORE God. A sad set of affairs for a country that is the “Home of the Two Holy Shrines”.
You might not see if, but you are playing the sympathy card when you talk about how no one supports you because you take a positive side on behalf of Saudi.
The FACT is that you are oppressed, you are just okay with it. Women in Saudi are NOT treated according to fair and just laws, never mind treated properly according to Islam.
It is my experience that many women in Saudi dont mind because they get well taken care of, maids, drivers, lots of money, so they will take loosing some of their rights to get all of that. I have heard as much directly from Saudi women themselves. “Well, we get treated well….women in the West dont get the stuff we do, dont have maids….ect”. It is all about stuff.
The Saudi women whom I have met who really value freedom, their rights and independence, dont care about the money, the maids, drivers and the like. For them the freedom is worth giving these things up for.
I guess it is a choice one has to make. How much are you willing to sell your freedom and independence for? Sadly for many Saudi women the price is shopping trips at the mall, maids, drivers and a great villa.
@Maha,
I for one am happy to have you come out as a Saudi woman and share that you are happy. I enjoy hearing about your experiences and your candid way of sharing.
@Abu Sinan,
I think you are coming down a bit harsh here. Not all women in Saudi feel they are repressed or that their life is wrong. In fact, my own sisters-in-law who are all college educated are happy and satisfied with their lives and would not want a lot of changes to take place.
I do not believe it is our place to judge or label whether the Saudi woman is really happy or not. And there is going to be split views among the Saudi women on how they feel about their life and traditions.
@Carol,
Maha stated her opinion on the issue and came down strongly on one side, I just responded to her with my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.
For those Saudi women, even other Middle Eastern women, who have a choice about the situation it really is about making a choice based on what is important to you. Many of the Saudi/Middle Eastern women I have known have made an active choice that their freedoms were more important than the material aspects they’d gain by living in the Middle East.
Even Maha herself has railed against the materialism of Saudi women, my idea plays nicely into her comments, just with a different take at her comments about the materialism of Saudi women.
On the other hand, I have known people who had the freedom here in the West and decided that the money, comfort and materialism of the Gulf was more important. It is their choice I guess.
If you dont know any other life…then happiness is relative. I lived both lives…let me tell you…there is no price on freedom to be your own person, think your own thoughts….and be free of the burden of the morality of the umma placed on your shoulders merely because you are female…and carry it 24/7.
Your sisters in law might like to try not carrying that burden for just a week…lets say in america…and then come back and reassess how “happy and content” they are with their lives.
I hope they still are…then I can agree with that statement without reservation .
This has been an interesting discussion although it went off topic from Carol’s original post. I live in Saudi Arabia and know Saudi women who are happy. However, a lot depends on their mahram; if they are fortunate to have a kind father and later a decent, supportive husband, life is great. But if something goes wrong, the father dies unexpectedly or the marriage fails, there is very little support for women under Saudi law; the deck is really stacked against them. There are many women who are suffering as a result of these laws. It is important for women who are happy in their own lives and careers to also care about women’s rights issues even if they don’t feel oppressed in their own individual circumstances.
Californiadreamin is right. There are happy and unhappy women everywhere and so too in Saudi Arabia. Those who are leading a good life should try to think about the less fortunate ones – but they can’t do anything by themselves in the Saudi system. The men in their family have to support their cause. And further, these men have to be in the good books of the government – so I guess it’s a vicious circle. There is a serious need to think how the opinion of the political and the religious leadership can be changed – it’s a monumental task before Saudi people.
As for the attitude towards materialistic luxury I don’t see what’s wrong in enjoying a luxurious life. I know Quran prescribes a modest lifestyle, but we can’t avoid the reality that there is money in Saudi families and if the women don’t use it, the men are going to gorge it all for themselves and also keep the women under control – so it makes sense if the women are at least spending the money if not having independence.
The definition of happiness is relative and varies from culture to culture and even from individual to individual. In many cultures, a luxurious life is a part of the definitions of happiness. And in many Asian cultures, women don’t want to be financially independent, carry their own luggage, open doors for themselves, change their car tyres, repair a leaking tap etc. They want the men around them to take care of them financially and do these things for them. In Islamic countries, many women genuinely want to veil as well, even if there was no law about it.
Yes, in these cultures, when the women get a Western-pattern education – either abroad or in their own country, they begin to think like the women in the industrialised societies and want to be like them, breaking away from their traditional mode as Abu Sinan argued. But it can’t be argued that either of these lifestyles is inherently superior to the other.
So, the question is – why are we arguing about the repression of women in a non-democratic society like the Saudi one? The difference here is, that the Saudi State doesn’t give the women to make a choice about how they should live their lives. If they were free to make a choice and still wanted to live that way, I don’t think the outsiders should have any right to try to change them. They can’t decide if they want to veil, stay as homemakers, be guided by their Mahrams and so on, or go out and make a life for themselves. And in my mind that’s where the repression lies.
In my country, the democratic law gives the women the choice – there are no laws that they have to stay at home, not talk to men, shouldn’t work etc. Yet, there are thousands of women who choose to be homemakers, they don’t want to go out and do all their work themselves, just take care of their home and children etc. And no one thinks negatively of them, because the law hasn’t expected them to be like that.
In my own family, I am an independent, working woman, living on my own and doing all my work myself. On the other hand my youngest sister refused to work, said she wanted an arranged marriage and stay at home, be taken care of and manage her family – and she got that lifestyle. Both of us grew up in the same family and we chose opposite lifestyles and the law allows both of us to choose what we want to be. This is something that doesn’t exist in Saudi Arabia and I feel this is where the change should come in first of all. Laws related to divorce, education, independence etc. will follow from if only this consciousness comes first that the women should choose for themselves.
coolred
thanks for your comment…and just for the record…I married my husband because I liked him…we were engaged for a whole year, and through that year we got to know each other better..we understood each other and we loved each other…..might not seem very romantic, but after we got married, things started to become much romantic
and alhamdullilah, we are a very happy couple because we are not just husband and wife; we are friends as well….in fact, he is my best freind
@Abu Sinan
First, you are right… I shouldn’t have spoken my mind out and talked about support because I really don’t need anyone’s support here…maybe I’ve just failed to express my thoughts clearly….or maybe you choise to understand me in the way you wanted to…
Saudi Arabia is NOT Islam ….this is where people are misled, and this is what many Saudi think unfortunately…
Saudi Arabia poses itself as a representative of Islam because it has the two Holy Mosques, but in reality, Saudi Arabia is something and Islam is soemthing else…
If Islam was practiced in the right way in my country, things would have become close to perfect….
What you said is very insulting and very personal….just because you are married to a Saudi woman who refused to marry a Saudi, this doesn’t make your marriage perfect and other people’s marriages wrong…Obviuosly, you are happy with your choice, and I can’t be but happy for you and Manal, but this doesn’t give you the right to judge Saudi women or Saudi marraiges…
You insuted me and accused me of being materilaistc and shallow without even knowing who i am and how i live….
Just because you’ve know some superficial and unhappy Saudi women, this doesn’t mean that I am one of them…
I just want you to tell me in what ways I am oppressed?
Do you even know how I live? If being a happy and content wife means, I am oppressed, then I must say:” wlecome, oppression!”
I am one of very few Saudi women who refused to have a maid and who had no driver until very recently…I don’t live in a big villa and my husband is not rich at all…he’s just a regualr employee who is suffering in order to get his bread and butter (like many other men in this country)….
When I first got married, his salary was only 2000 riyals, and I was the happiest woman on Earth althoug by the end of the month, we had to borrow money from our parents (who are rich, but usually refused to help us financially)
and every riyal we borrowd from his parents, we had to return…
It’s not as shallow and flowery as you think….The life that I am living now with my husband and children is due to our constand hard work to make our family independent, and we managed Alhamdullilah to do so…
Those welathy and lazy men and women of Saudi Arabia are the ones who are distorting our image….And for your information, more than half of Jeddah’s people are poor and live in shacks!
You need to see the reality of Saudi Arabia from an average woman’s perspective, not from a bunch of spoiled women who cant give up a maid and a driver becasue they don’t want to miss out shopping!
I invite you and everyone here to read my experience as a working woman and to read the story of my struggle towards independence …and maybe Abu Sinan, you should tell Manal to read my Arabic bolg to know what kind of woman I am….
and when you come to Jeddah, I will be glad to have you at my humble apartment and serve you home made dinner…dinner that i will make, not the maid
Sorry forgot the link of the interview
http://taraummomar.blogspot.com/2009/12/auto-biography-of-saudi-fraud-non_08.html
American Bedu
Thanks for moderating, and I know that you will always be happy for any happy person.
@californaidreamin
You are right about that, and that’s why my husband always tells me you have to be strong and independent if something goes wrong…
I think if Saudi women are not educated and strong enough, they suffer when the husband or supporter dies…You can’t get your rights easily ..you need a fight and a woman can’t fight for her rights if she has been all her life dependent and shallow…
I think that every woman (Saudi or Non-Saudi) should be armed with knowledge and education, so whenever life turns its back to her, she faces things bravely and confidently.
Thanks
@Maha,
I have not insulted you, rather used some of your words that you have put here. Have you yourself not said that many Saudi women are materialistic and driven by the desire for things?
How is it insulting to simply repeat what YOU have said? When you say it it isnt insulting……..but when I say it it is?
The truth is the truth, no matter who says it. Sorry if you dont like the stuff YOU have said repeated by another. The reality is that it doesnt matter where it comes from or what the source is…….the truth is just that. The truth.
As your own personal situation, I wasnt talking about you personally. I find it a bit odd that you take your own words personally. If you are offended by what I said……..why did you say the same things and why werent you offended by your own words?
@Maha,
BTW………I appreciate your invitation to your place in Jeddah, but due to the unIslamic nature of the Saudi establishment it would be very hard for me to visit just for pleasure and it would be impossible for me to bring my wife with me.
Until I can bring my wife, married to me under the laws of Islam and in the eyes of God, I will not step foot in Saudi Arabia.
@Maha,
Sorry, I have to point out that my wife didnt refuse to marry a Saudi, she did marry one. It is her experiences with him and his family that made her not want to marry another one again. It was the court granting custody to the father even though he showed up in court high on drugs that helped form my opinion of the Saudi establishment along with the $10,000 bribe her father had to pay to get her divorced from a physically abusive drug addict.
In dealing with her ex’s family and her ex, I can see why. For 18 years they have refused to support their children and for the last 7 years have let another man, a convert to Islam/Westerner support their children.
So much for the vaunted Saudi pride.
maha….Im glad your happy. Very few are…no matter where they are in the world and what culture they are from.
My aunt is married to an Indian but her children have been granted Saudi citizenship. Children of such marriages can apply for Saudi citizenship once they turn 18 on the condition that they never left the country till they turned 18.
My wife is from Bahrain & many in her family have married non-bahrainis or to be precise non-khaleejis (Khaleej = Gulf). While they could marry them without any issues, they had lot of issues sponsoring their husbands & their children are not Bahrainis. Quite sad!
Abu Sinan
That’s exactly what annoyed me..you have used my own ideas to insult me whereas I said what I said to express facts about some Saudi women; not about me.
You used what I said to attack me while I was being frank to talk about the drawbacks that I see in my society.
Sorry to hear that about Manal, but at least things went well for her when she married you….And you will be granted “thawab” for raising those kids…
Just please don’t take things personal….
@coolred38
I can’t agree more…a lot are unhappy due to their wrong choices…I will post an article soon about happiness, so stay tuned. Thanks
@Maha,
Sorry, but I dont see that I attacked you. Can you point out where I talked about YOU specifically? Like yourself and your words, I was talking about Saudi women in general, not about you in particular.
I never pointed towards you as being materialistic, money grabbing or the like. I am having trouble seeing where you think I insulted you because I didnt. Your response in claiming I insulted you references only money and materialism so I have to think this is what you are confused about.
My comments that were directed towards you specifically had to do with your comments about Saudi women marrying foreigners, nothing to do with materialism and money that you addressed after that.
I am glad you are able to critique your own society the way you do, but it seems you pull your punches when it comes to drawing the logical, final conclusion to your own observations.
What I get from your comments and my own personal experiences is that Saudi society works towards keeping Saudi women interested in money and material things. This is done to keep the women under the control of the men, hence the whole society is slanted with it’s rules and regulations being tailored to keep things this way.
This doesnt mean all Saudi women are like this, but most are as they are products of their own society. Independent, educated women with real choices about their own lives and the ability to live it by themselves are a threat to Saudi men. That is exactly why Saudi society is set up to do it’s best to keep their women from getting to that point.
That is exactly why, in the culture, somone like a well educated, traveled and experienced Saudi woman who might be a lawyer or a doctor finds it very hard to get married to a man who will treat her properly and give her the ability to be who she is. That is why more and more Saudi women like this are not marrying Saudi men.
From the cradle to the grave women in Saudi are not seen as independent beings with their own lives, their own futures and their own destiny in their hands. Rather it is a series of passing of the responsibility of a Saudi woman’s life from one man to the next. First the father…..then maybe an uncle……….then to the husband, if divorced back to a father,uncle or maybe a younger brother a decade or more younger than her, all of whom have veto power over almost every aspect of a Saudi lady’s life.
That is not freedom. It is more of an indentured servitude. This will not change until the society gives women the right to be their own person, independent of any male relative. Where they are free to make any choice they want in regards to their lives and no man has the right or the ability to veto her choices because “he knows better”.
Abu Sinan,
Saudi Arabia till a few decades ago wasn’t a very rich country. They don’t have much of natural resources to build wealth upon. You only have to read the descriptions of Arabia from early 20th century to know how poor it was.
Only when oil was discovered, they suddenly found wealth and they know well this wealth is short-lived – only a couple of decades more. Hence, they naturally enjoy in the materialism while it lasts – you have to see their materialism in this context. It’s not only the women, even Saudi men are materialistic. It’s transient wealth and they have to enjoy it while it is there. Why do you grudge them this short-lived pleasure?
WOW! This conversation has gotten very interesting.
I personally believe that a person should marry the person they truly love. I understand that sometimes it is not easy to do so, in countries with such strict rules in place to prevent it. However, I believe that love is the foundation to a good marriage. Of course, as we all know, there can be a foundation, but that alone doesn’t make an enduring structure. I believe there has to be respect, communication, sacrifice, understanding, common goals, etc. When we’re all done talking, here’s the truth: marriages fail in every corner of the world. When these marriage fail, it is not to say that there wasn’t love there. I find that in most cases, there was love, but only one or two of the other things that make a relationship last.
From what I’ve read, heard, seen and experienced, I gather that the Saudi culture has defined an enduring relationship with very different terms. When you have two people coming together, from different cultures, who possess very different ideas on what a marriage should be …Of course, you’ll run into problems. I think a lot of people make the mistake that I did, believing that similar (and sometimes practically identical) socio-economic backgrounds, education levels, cultural exposure, and personalities will make a good relationship. Sometimes it does. However, it is rare. Saudi culture appears to be and have the same affect on its society as American culture. It is a distinct way of life. It embeds itself. It becomes the identity of its inhabitants. It doesn’t matter if the Saudi or American you met in university is kind, smart, fun, and loving. He/ She can be all those things, but they will still be who they are (a version of their culture).
So two people go into relationship, with love, with the intent of compromising, working to understand each other’s perspectives, etc. The bottom line is…two people go into a marriage with the hope of building a strong structure. The love is there- Great! But what happens when two people can’t agree on the importance of the other elements. I know a lot couples who have divorced. Many of those men and women admit that they thought love was enough (knowing full well that they hadn’t come to a mutual understanding on what else build in).
In the case of a dear cousin (whom I’ll give the name Ameena) who married a man outside of our culture (which I don’t oppose)…She admitted that while he understood the need to give respect, communicate effectively…blah blah, the two of them didn’t share the same feelings on how those things could be achieved. His culture gave him the impression that respect was…ABC…While her culture gave her the impression that respect was…DEF…
Don’t get me wrong, I’m fully aware that there are some bi-cultural relationships out there doing just fine. I’ve heard just as many success stories as I have horror tales. But sometimes, I have to wonder, when women claim to be so happy and are involved in a relationship where they swear all parties are on the same page…how much of that is the truth? We’ve all done it. Because love moves us to sometimes sacrifice for the happiness of our great love and the relationship…But I can’t help but to be believe that in bi-cultural relationships…either he OR she is lying to themselves about the page their on. Someone in that relationship is neglecting their culture and the definitions of respect, love, care that his/her gave them. As said, culture is part of the identity. Think about it. For how long can a person suppress their identity before they are overwhelmed. What does sort of identity juggling do to a marriage? It aborts it, thats what.
This is my opinion. I don’t mean to offend anyone. I’m just being honest about my feelings and concerns.
@Daisy,
Why do I have an issue with materialism? Huh? Because it is a vacant way of life with very little of a positive nature that goes with it.
I have a great suggestion to the Saudi people, instead of feeding at the teet of materialism until the money runs out, how about educating yourself completely so that when the money runs out you can become a center of learning, science and industry?
Instead the money goes to third word maids, luxury houses in multiple countries and other nonsense.
Let them blow the money on material goods……..but their children or grand children will eventually curse their names that they blew the money and didnt think about them.
In this argument I tend to agree with Abu Sinan…I personally find nothing wrong with someone having wealth. Many people, especially here in the USA where people often think that any dream is possible with enough hard work, worked their butts off to have it and sacrificed a lot in the effort to create wealth.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying the fruits of one’s labors either…however, it is very important what one does with the wealth. If it is to be used in the pursuit of vapid and empty accumulation of “stuff” that one really doesn’t need to me that is a meaningless use of money. Not that people should not enjoy it but there should be a component of using it in a better way…perhaps putting some of it in trust funds for the education of future children, donating to a particular cause,if one were wealthy enough( I can’t imagine! LOL!) starting a foundation of some sort that can go on long term to provide something for others. I have thought about this especially in light of the financial meltdown the world has recently experienced…how many mansions does one need? or luxury cars? or jewelry? or …..Having lovely things is nice but it doesn’t buy happiness. I recently read a study that said once a person has enough money to have their needs comfortably met more money did not necessarily make the person happier. What DID make them happier was having a higher purpose in life and feeling that they were making a difference in the world…kind of cool and can be given FREE through time and talent.
Besides, why must a person BUY things to make them feel good about themselves?
@Oby,
I agree 100%, and lets keep in mind that when we talk about wealth in Saudi Arabia, all too often it is NOT their money in the first place. They have raped the natural resources of the country and kept it for themselves.
Even Maha stated that half of Jeddah lives in shacks while others live in unimaginable wealth made off the backs of non Saudi labour and resources that rightfully belong to the people of Saudi Arabia, the same people living in those shacks.
Wealth that doesnt come from oil comes from corruption and schemes that would be illegal in any open and transparent country, think incidents like the “al Yamamah” scandal in the UK where members of the Saudi royal family and their facilitators made BILLIONS! How much of that do you think filtered down to those Saudis living in the shacks of Jeddah, Riyadh and Qassim?
The only real wealth made in Saudi comes from oil and corruption. There is no real manufacture of anything so any money in Saudi comes from either corruption or oil and that money does not filter down in any real amount to the Saudis who dont have connections. Those are the people living in the shacks.
(75% of all revenue in Saudi comes from oil and 90% of their exports are oil based).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Yamamah
People fill up their lives with “things” because they have a void that needs something to fill it…they erroneously believe things will fill it so they spend their lives accumulating things. The void never gets filled because things are not what it takes to fill it.
23 years spent in the gulf showed me one thing…a large % of the population pursues “things” in hopes of filling a void left over by corrupt despotic ruling families and govts that have given their own people very little say in their lives. All the people have left is their own money (loans from banks more often than not) and the “shop til they drop” attitude.
Almost like they are thinking…maybe I have no say in the govt…maybe I have no say in who runs my country into the ground…maybe I have no say in where the countries money goes and what laws are enforced and and and…but I can always have the latest mobile…the latest car model…the latest the latest the latest…believe me…been there…know that.
Abu Sinan, Oby and Coolred,
I agree with you, it’s true that in most other countries money can and should be used for beneficial investment and industry etc. But Saudi Arabia is different – think of the time 20 years later from now – with no oil and no natural resources, what kind of industry can run there? Educational institutions will run, but what will all these educated people do except immigrating abroad? Most of their products will have to be imported at high price. The country will no longer be in a position to negotiate with the rest of the world on advantageous terms. With no bargaining power without oil, they will be under severe pressure from the West and the rest of the world to change their social and legal structure and globalise. The picture is really bleak. The downslide of Saudi Arabia is unavoidable once the oil runs out and they know it. Hence, it’s a case of making hay while the sun shines. I’m not defending them, just giving you the picture as it emerges when you think about the country without its oil power. Just think, how will their economy sustain without oil and without natural resources? It simply can’t.
@Daisy,
That is an awful attitude. Basically it is saying that they should blow the money whilst they can because it will run out one day.
I have a different solution. Look at a resource poor country like Germany. Did they decide to blow it all and then become beggars because Germany is resource poor? No way. They adjusted their culture and society and made the country into an economic powerhouse DESPITE the lack of natural resources!
They import the resources they lack and turn the materials into high quality, highly respected goods which are then exported at a good profit giving the German people a very nice way of life, all despite being resource poor.
Instead of blowing their money, the Saudis SHOULD be putting every penny into making a future for Saudi that will be manufacturing and science based. I know the government has spent some money on this, but not nearly enough. And it isnt just a problem you can throw money at.
You can build 100 KAUSTs in Saudi and if the culture doesnt change to accept and embrace hardwork, develope a good work ethic and the idea that one must work hard to get something, every KAUST built will be a masssive waste of money.
The truth is Saudi, with it’s money now, can ensure that it will be successful and wealthy LONG after the oil runs out. There must be political and societal will to make it happens.
THAT is what is missing in Saudi, nothing else.
The cynical, spend it all now and leave our grandchildren to starve attitude is what is going to mean that the future of Saudi is going to be that of Yemen.
Sad, because it doesnt have to be that way.
@Coolred,
Here in the US, long in the past, we were in the same situation. We had a royal family who didnt care for us much.
A minority of people’s decided that their freedom was worth the price it took to get it. Until the average Saudi decides the same thing they will remain as they are.
I know it is a cliche, but freedom isnt free. Our ancestors here in the USA paid the price for our freedom. If Saudis want to be free, one way or another they’ll need to pay a price for that freedom as well.
@ Abu Sinan
I agree with you completely, that an infinite number of KAUSTS can be built in Saudi, but if the culture, attitudes toward hard work and selflessness don’t change…none of those world-class institutions will mean anything to anyone. I believe, as cliche as it sounds, that the work must began when the child is brought home from the nursery. I know many people who came from both uber afluent and dirt poor families, each of those people had the courage to recognize that something was wrong with the way they had been raised. Each of them had enough courage to acknowledge that their situation (the ways in which they lived-and had been taught to) would mean doom for the future generation. Each of those people brought their children home from the nursery with determination not to opt their child into the cycle. I respect people who care enough about their children and those ahead of them to make the hardest changes in their lives. The attitude must change. In short, I’m saying that Saudi has a chance every time a child is delivered. But only if the parents are brave enough, wise enough, selfless enough to recognize their power to make positive change. I think so often people believe that if they defy the norms in their society they are helping to chip away at its existence. In my opinion, the best chance anyone has to keep its culture/heritage and traditions alive is to keep its people alive. Sure we will all die, but the children will live, and their children too. But who will live if WE give in, give up, and die-too afraid to look back, reconsider and alter our course? Who will live if we die? Certainly not the children.
I do agree with the above couple of comments…KSA must invest in it’s infrastructure, it’s educational institutions and not just to be able to recite the Qur’an backward and forward…they need more science, math and other courses that will allow the graduate to be competitive on the world market. They need to instill a work ethic and there isn’t that much time. In twenty or thirty years the oil will have run out or the world will be forced, due to global warming to seek out alternative energy sources. either way KSA will be left without a source of income. NOW, RIGHT NOW is the time for them to get businesses up and running, diversify their income base and teach the kids coming up that it takes hard work to build wealth and it can’t be built on the backs of the immigrants…they will have to roll up their sleeves and get in the trenches themselves. Not to mention, beyond global warming, the population explsion that is going to happen in KSA and perhaps an accute shortage of resources and jobs for all those people coming. I think Abu Sinan is right…they will NOT like to lose their lifestyles and it could be pretty ugly once the oil income is gone. I am concerned that they will see outside forces be it the West or whatever as the cause of their discontent and problems, and blame others for their lack of foresight and preparation…But the do have a choice…it doesn’t have to be that way. They have a vast supply of wealth as well as the resources of their own peoples’ brains, imagination and if they will do it, hard work. I think the time to stop squabbling over whether women should work or not or drive or not is done. Fully half of their potential brains and workforce is not allowed to use their god given talents…that can only be to KSA’s disadvantage. they need everyone pulling as much as they can to get up and running in diversification mode. time is of the essence here!
Abu Sinan,
Yes that’s a very good solution and you are right – if they begin building from now, they can make it. And Oby is absolutely right, time is runnging out for them.
There in one hitch in that – an economy based on manufacture industry has to be based on the willingness of the resource-rich countries to export to them. India is a tremendously resources-rich country and Germany imports resources from here and exports finished products at high price. We know that too well. This is one reason that keeps the third world forever poor – it’s not a coincidence that most of the resources are concentrated in the third world.
If they stop exporting their raw resources to resource-poor countries and begin using these resources for their own industries, they can be richer than those rich countries. But there is a whole lot of complex equations involved that doesn’t let them do this – and they too are responsible in that they don’t often realise how they are selling away their wealth in exchange for poverty.
This is only hypothetical, because the international equations see to it that these resource-rich countries remain in the vicious circle they are trapped in, but if these countries stop exporting their raw materials, the economy of resource-poor rich countries can’t sustain. And Saudi Arabia has to import the resources before this happens.
Personally I dont think the people in power in Saudi have too much of a vested interest in spending money that would be otherwise theirs to benefit all of Saudi.
Once the oil runs out all they are going to do is to pick up and move to the West………..head to their large homes abroad and live off the hundreds of millions, in some cases billions, of dollars that they have in Western bank accounts. Money that was pilfered from the people of Saudi Arabia.
They will have their businesses that they own, their multiple properties and the like. The average Saudi, at this point, will be dirt poor and have no skill set to support themselves let alone an infrastructure. They might be upset enough at this point to “pay the price” for freedom………but it will be too late.
I guess I am in the minority in that as long as someone is not in control of my money, I do not point fingers at how others may choose to spend their money. Now of course I am talking about private individuals and not governmental funds which are a different category.
And back to Culture Watch I think, yes, everyone does have their culture and heritage embedded into them whether they’ve been away from their home country for many years. And I am one that if a bi-cultural or any marriage has a challenge, not be shy to reach out for help. Sometimes it takes a professional who has no vested interest in the couple to be able to pinpoint where they are having a challenge and get the relationship back on track.
@Carol,
The problem is that all too often the money of many “private individuals” is actually money that rightfully belongs to the people. Even when it doesnt directly come from the people, the “start up money” most certainly did.
Abu Sinan,
Yes you are right about that. There will be rich Saudis abroad, while Saudi Arabia will be a poor country and it will be too late to build it as a powerful conomy.
interesting how this discussion went way off topic..LOL
Please, carry on and I’ll translate all your comments and try to publish them in a Saudi newpaper so that all Saudis get to read it, especially the people in control….maybe things will change….
thanks
These are really interesting discussions, especially about the future of Saudi, will it remain a resource dependent country or would there be any potential to build some other industries… Many countries face long term challenges, China&India are indeed rich in labour, but poor in resources, on the other hand middle east, Russia or Nigeria are rich in resources, but rather poor in terms of institutional management (which I mean strength in policy making, infrastructure spending…). Sometimes you do wonder if resources is a curse or not, it seems for any government in power, as long as no danger is looming, they can hardly make any drastic changes, very often reforms taken place because they had to, because a new power have overthrown the old power, because of the oppressed lives in such bad situation that they deem changes have to happen, but in resource rich countries, the incentives for those in power to change is minimum, and if the “oppressed ” don’t feel the urge either, then there will be no change….. or it will take the oil price to plunge to 10$ again before we see any change i guess…..
Thank YOU Maha! I don’t want to sound full of myself or anything but if you ever feel there is a specific post that you believe should reach more Saudis who may not know English, you are more than welcome to take the post and translate it on your blog. My concern and goal is to get useful information to the people.
Jill – You made an insightful comment about countries and respective times which influence on whether reforms can be made or not. Good points.
Jill,
I agree with your comments in general, but you seem to be mistaken about “resources.” West Asia and a large part of Russia are POOR in resources – West Asia has practically nothing but oil, which is going to run out in about 20 years and Siberia is a snow desert. Besides, in the cold climate of Russia, not much can grow. China has only average resources – the area covered by the mountains doesn’t produce much.
India is a TREMENDOUSLY RESOURCE-RICH country, as also many African and South American countries. But the international economic equations see to it that these resources are used to the advantage of industrialised nations, many of whom are RESOURCE-POOR, but import resources from the Third World and export finished goods at a profit as Abu Sinan explained. You’ll find it interesting that England doesn’t produce most of its food – it imports most of its food from the Third World including India and South America, and you will find many Indian products in England but not in India – all of it is exported from India. And you’ll find food from all over the world in England – all of it imported at a low price and being sold at a high price.
That’s why I made the comment above – it’s not a coincidence that most of the resources are concentrated in what is known as the Third World.
It’s a tragedy of the world that the resource-rich countries live in poverty while the resource-poor countries are using these countries’ resources to generate wealth for themselves.
USA is rather an exception in that it is resource-rich and uses them to make its own goods except oil – it’s not a surprise that USA is on the ascendancy – it has managed to use its resources to its own advantage rather than allow the other powers take control of them, apart from other geopolitical reasons.
By “resources” I mean natural resources, not money or labour. Money is usually generated by using natural resources.
If the so-called Third World countries begin to do what the USA has done, they can be much richer than the other industrialised nations, but they are trapped in the vicious cirlce of the International equations and can’t stop exporting their resources at low price.
In fact, in pre-modern history, when everbody used and sold its own resources and products, today’s Third World was the richest and the powerful part of the world, because others weren’t using their resources to their own advantage. Look at the historical map of the world – Egypt, India, China, Iraq, Greece and Rome were the rich and powerful regions. Because these are the regions with greatest natural resources, so they flourished. Today, except Greece and Italy, rest has been reduced to the Third World status and Greece and Italy are not the countries with best economies in the EU. That’s because today’s international economics is different.
Hi Daisy,
What do you define as West Asia? And actually there are places in Siberia where it is know to be rich oil reserves under that hard earth and snow.
And what is known as Saudi Arabia today, could gain power only after unifying under Muhammad and defeating the resource-rich regions by war, plunder and loot. And also by blocking international trade and acting as intermediaries in that trade – without producing anything themselves, because they didn’t have the resources to produce anything in the first place.
Hi Carol,
Yes, again only oil and nothing else in Siberia as I said about West Asia – once oil runs out, Siberia is poor again.
West Asia is what the West calls as Middle East. Of course, North Africa is North Africa and not part of West Asia.
Middle East is basically a Eurocentric term evolved in midiaeval Europe, when they looked at the world keeping themselves at the centre. Today our understanding of the world has evolved much more than that and geocentrism is not taken as a rational perspective. Hence, instead of Far East, Near East , Middle East etc., East Asia, South-East Asia, South Asia, West Asia are more appropriate terms.
most worldwide ministries of foreign affairs have the world classified a little differently for geo-political alignments.
Too tiresome to dispel the stereotypes but let us try.
“A large part of Russia are POOR in resources – West Asia has practically nothing but oil, which is going to run out in about 20 years and Siberia is a snow desert. Besides, in the cold climate of Russia, not much can grow.”
Yes, I see, Siberia is a snow desert, polar bears play balalaikas in the streets of Moscow amid the bread lines, etc. Never let the facts get in the way of good story, eh?
Some facts, nevertheless. Siberia is a part of Russia, not all of Russia. Yes, some of Russia is cold, but not all of it. The Black Sea border in the south is classified as subtropics. There is also a large moderate space in between.
And yes, Virginia, we do grow tangerines, tea and rice in the south. They’re are not too fancy but they do grow.
Now to resources. Yes, there’s oil. Yes, there’s gas. Russia has the world’s second largest coal reserves, world’s fifth largest lead reserves, world’s largest reserves of fresh water in lakes, world’s largest diamond deposits, second largest potassium reserves. Russia also has 20 to 25% of the world’s timber reserves. Russia’s gold reserves are some of the world’s largest. Other mineral reserves include uranium, asbestos, platinum, rhodium, palladium, copper, tin, bauxite, vanadium, nickel, zinc, sulfur, tungsten, cobalt, iron ore, and other precious gems. Russia has 27% of the world’s reserves of iron and tin ores; over 40% of the platinum group minerals and 35% of nickel reserves.
To be continued.
And not to mention the world’s largest supply of supermodels.
Moving along. The concept that natural resources = rich economy has a very tenuous link with reality. It is enough to look at two countries with rich oil supplies (like, for instance, Norway and Nigeria) and compare two very different outcomes. In today’s environment the quantity of your natural resources is a lot less important than good governance.
To wit, there are plentiful examples of resource-poor countries with excellent economies. Somehow Switzerland managed to sustain itself perfectly well on the steady export of cuckoo clocks, milk chocolate and numbered bank accounts. Singapore is doing just fine. Brains are more important than minerals. All resources will run out eventually, no matter how wisely you use them. By then something else will be seen as a valuable resource.
It is very easy to blame big bad governments of the developed world that are keepin’ the brother down. It is a lot harder to put the blame where it belongs, on the inefficient, corrupt third world governments.
On another matter, the world has evolved past the stage where every country had to supply for its own needs. Today we live in a commodified world where any country can buy anything it wants from anyone else. You can buy cotton from Egypt, zippers from China, grommets from Singapore, designs from Italy, have jeans stitched in Mexico and sold worldwide.
There are economies out there built on nothing but services that do not require natural resources. You can develop a great banking system, great ports, great transportation hubs, great insurance products, great software, great tourism, great medical technology and you don’t need to have oil in the ground. China’s manufacturing prowess compensates for relative dearth of resources. There is no rule that says you have to make your own food and sew your own clothes. Do whatever makes sense and make good use of your own gifts, whatever they may be. No one is keeping you down but you.
Thanks for all the thoughts and information, NN
Here is an intriguing article from the Foreign Policy review about the Oil Curse http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/08/17/the_devil_s_excrement?page=full
Says the same thing: natural resources? Nah. Good governance? yes please.
I think I do agree with most of what NN said.
and I can totally understand why Daisy has the frustration about the situation as it is today.
Actually, the very reason was that, the rich countries today, had the opportunity to go through industrialization earlier than the so called 3rd world nations did, and the productivity & technological gain enables them to move up the ladder, to focus on industries with high value adding components, hence more profitable.
As to the 3rd world being left behind, was partly due to internal turmoil, defeat in the war, not opening up to innovation and revolutional ideas, etc ..
Trust me I really do not like the idea about this “financially run” world where bankers get high bonus when the market recovers and being bailed out in when things blow up, capitalism is not the best system in the world, yet without efficient allocation of capital, where high corruption & red tapes dominates, the speed of economic developments really slows down dramatically. (think about Nigeria, even Russia, or KSA) ….
The fact is, due to historical reasons, some countries were not managed by the smartest people, hence were left behind in this modernization/industrialization process, but, I do believe that labour, especially talented labour, the so called demographic dividend, is getting increasing more important in determining which country is going to win out in the end.
The success of US partly lies in the number of Nobel prizes the US citizens have won in many areas, electricity/car/air-plane/internet, the key revolutional inventions + the money made in the war time, is what made US affluent, but with its greedy capital system, aging population , I would assume that the Emerging economies take the lead in the next 100 years, given its younger population, with easier information sharing worldwide than what it used to be….
@NN,
Good points about Russia. THere is a reason why Hitler diverted armies to Souther Russia instead of heading east…………….he needed all of the natural resources.
@Abu Sinan
I hear you. Perhaps his problem after all was that he didn’t have good people around him to advise him that “large part of Russia is poor in resources” and “nothing in Siberia but snow desert with oil.”
NN<
You may be right about the minerals in Russia and you are right about minerals and oils not being replenishable resources. Yes, corruption complicates the problem in the Thrid World countries – that's a reality, But anyone who thinks that today's industrialised Europe has moved ahead on its own doesn't know the history of colonial empires. If you read the colonial history of India, you will realise how the European colonialists completely bled this region to its core, drained its wealth out and left after fracturing this region forever. Yes, corruption and mismanagement are there, but that's not where the prblem started. Europe got its advantage in the first place because it was ruthless enough to rape the resource-rich regions by colonialism. Now you have moved beyond that stage, but it was not always like that in history.
Yes, you can buy whatever you like from wherever you like, but the rsource-poor industrialised nations force the resource rich Third World to sell their raw goods at low price – it is linked to many other kinds of international policies which don' allow these countries to decide that they will sell finished products at high price, like Germany does by Abu Sinan's account, not mine. If these countries can emerge out of this trap and decide to sell only finishd goods at high profit like Germany and other nations, they can become rich, but that doesn't happen.
Carol,
That classification is basically academic in nature, not following the way countries tend to do it – it rather questions the way countries tend to do it.
NN,
It’s a very simple equation that should exist in a truly fair and equal world – if I have somethig you need and you want to buy it from me, it should be my right to decide
a) whether I want to sell it and
b) on what terms I want to sell it.
It should not be your privilege to decide that I have to sell it and lay down the terms on which I must sell it to you.
But this is not a truly fair and equal world we are living in.
And Russia has all these minerals etc you have detailed. But the main question is – who is going to benefit from it? It’s not Russia that is going to use these resources and become rich – Russia no longer has the power to bargain for itself with the world. It’s the industrialised nations who are going to use thse resources and become rich, paying a low price to Russia, who will be forced to accept their terms. So it doesn’t change my basic premise even if Russia has the resources.
Since the comments have really gone off-track from the subject of the post, I’d like to ask that future non-related comments be posted to the debate column instead.
Thanks, American Bedu
Back to Bedu’s original post: how long does it take to measure success in a saudi/foreign marriage?…
In my mind, I suppose you can deem your marriage successful, no matter the duration, once both parters have reached a common love, respect and acceptance for one another. And most importantly, once pure, honest, open dialogue becomes an integral part of the relationship.
Bedu said it quite nicely: “Disconnects in understanding what each is attempting to convey to the other is critical to a successful bicultural marriage between a Saudi national and his foreign wife.”
With my saudi spouse, I often struggle to convey my point of view to the point of exhaustion. I once literally SAT on my husband before he was willing to listen to me. You may have laughed had you seen us but after the argument was finished (and after I finally got off his lap) I was left physically ill. Usually one of us just leaves the room to keep the peace when disagreements arise but nothing gets resolved this way hence my idea of sitting on him until I said my peace. It worked, even injected a little humor in the heat of the argument but sadly I do not have the energy to continue fighting to simply be heard. There just has to be an easier way.
Our age, background, and culture differences compound the problem but let’s not forget our differing temperaments too! And honestly, I suppose my expectations have been a bit too high in how a husband/wife relationship should be. Perhaps I need to be a bit more realistic in accepting what my husband is and isn’t capable of.
But I fear all of this will read one sided here. My husband has many admiral qualities but he doesn’t have a clue how to effectively communicate with his American wife and nor do I know how to reach him. And this we still struggle with after years of marriage. So it is only after we have cleared this hurdle that I could ever refer to our marriage as successful. And given that my spouse doesn’t feel comfortable with couples counseling, we are on our own in finding ways to help us achieve that.
Lastly, I am more interested in what Bedu has to say than anyone else that may frequent this blog so would appreciate not being judged b/c of my posts. I post here in the hopes of gaining some insight from someone like Bedu on marriage to a saudi. I am not complaining and am not interested in assumptions or insults. Not all saudi men are bad, not all arranged marriages equals unhappiness. And not all marital problems spell divorce. At the end of the day, I do have hope for us and that’s all that matters to me.
Umm Tiflain,
I’m very happy to hear from you and believe me, when I read about you sitting on your husband I broke into a big immediate grin and could easily picture it! If you have not done so yet, I would strongly advise you to join the yahoo newsgroup saudiwives@yahoogroups.com which is a great forum for sharing and understanding too.
I can understand the Saudi male mindset about counseling which can make it dicier to approach communication issues. what has worked best when my own spouse and I have cultural challenges is to make sure we rephrase in several ways the point of discussion to confirm it is being heard and understood. Because we have grown up in such differing cultures and customs there are communication barriers that sometimes can feel like a wall of steel instead of transparent air. And mostly it is due to the experiences that neither the other experienced… he grew up with segregation of women typical and feelings were not discussed. I grew up in a big huggy feely family who talk and laugh and share a lot. Yet we manage to find our way and learn how to compromise. I don’t think there is a set recipe for everyone though..each of us have to find what works well. This may sound funny but my husband and I even made two little flash cards we would hold up to remind us to stay on track of the subject and not to get emotion. One flash card says practical and the other says emotional. If one of us holds up the emotional card, we take a break and come back later to the subject. We have also learned that if either has something on the mind, stay to the subject and don’t over-exhaust it either. It’s okay to take 5-10 minutes to broach the subject. Then think about it and readdress it a day or two later.
Those are some of my pointers and welcome hearing from others who have also taken the wonderful plunge of the Saudi-bicultural relationship. Like Umm Tuflain says, they can be challenging but oh so ever rewarding and loving too!
Umm Tiflain
I am not married to a Saudi but I might as well be because since I started reading this blog I am amazed at how many points of commonality the Saudis and Indians, at least MY Indian, have. Granted some things are different such as segregation and those hurdles I don’t have to deal with. But there are others…my husband is an MD and he is a workaholic…that means that very often I am going through this journey called life alone and feel like a single parent.
He RARELY(and I can’t remember an incidence) attends anything at my daughter’s school because he is always working and to get him to something would be tantamount to an act of Congress. I would have to coordinate patient scheduling with the secretary etc…I am sure that the people at school think that I just TELL everyone that I am married because he is the elusive husband almost no one has ever seen. His patients come first…absolutely no question about that. And while that is great for patients it is lonely for me at times. I am a doctor as well, so thankfully I have an understanding of his attitude for patients and I give him a huge amount of allowance for it and he is lucky that I do (sort of) understand him in that way. In fact, my daughter and I travel on vacations alone because he won’t take time away from his patients. He hasn’t had a vacation in at least 5 years…his choice. He often talks wistfully about getting away, but he is not able to pull himself away from his patients.
Because he is so patient oriented and spends all day talking to people with cancer, when he comes home he doesn’t want to talk much and goes into his “man cave” to destress. He is unable to handle anything that might even be SLIGHTLY perceived as negative or “deep”(I guess because he deals with it all day long) I am not able to go to him with any sort of problems or rely on him for very much comfort, only superficially.The result is that the relationship in many ways has a superficial and somewhat flat feeling. The irony is it works for him. The relationship doesn’t demand too much from him…well it does, but he resists it well. He thinks we are great even though I don’t think so.
He has many good qualities and he was not always this way…only since he went into Hem/Onc practice. But it is what it is. I feel uncomfortable telling you about my personal life and putting it out there for all the other s to see, but i am hoping my experience can help you. I do understand the frustration of it all. What I did that helped me enormously is, instead of couples counseling (he would never agree and certainly not take time away from patients to do it) I went to individual counseling to learn how to handle and cope with the situation. I had to learn how to work through my anger and issues and appreciate the good things. I also had to make a decision of what I was going to do since it wasn’t likely that he was going to change or even had an interest in hearing what I said or felt about it. I personally feel that years of not being heard or understood can definitely affect a person’s sense of self. The individual counseling really helped me focus on ME and what I could do to make my situation better even if I could not change him. I am happy to report I have much better coping skills now and it has been a good journey. I just wanted to share my experiences with you to let you know you are not alone and that this is one way I learned to handle a tough situation. Hope the suggestion helps.
Oby,
You are right, there are many similarities between Saudi and Indian societies – that’s why I can easily relate to these posts here, even though I have never been to Saudi Arabia.
You have indeed been very understanding and very strong in trying to understand and deal with your husband, despite the fact that you have professional commitments of a doctor too. Yes, it is true that most Indian men take it for granted that childrearing and home management is a woman’s job – which should not be especially if the woman is also an educated and workig professional. My sister and her husband are also doctors and their’s is a self-chosen marriage, not an arranged one. But, my sister works in the hospital and also looks after her home and children and in-laws, while her husband keeps himself busy most of the time in the hospital – often comng late in the night. And he too has many good qualities in him – we are very fond of him. I could easily relate to the situation you described of your marriage. Indian men are conditioned to be like this and don’t even realise that this conditioning needs to change with changing times. You are very right in making this point and I must admit that you have coped well and been very sacrificing in your marriage. Perhaps I am not capable of giving so much of love – I would like to, but my persoality is different.
I dont understand not wanting to be involved with your kids at a close level.
I have attended almost every field trip my boys had, I go to every well baby/annual doctor trip. When they get sick I have taken them to the doctors myself.
I dont view this as a chore…….I love it! These guys dont know what they are missing and I think NOT being involved with your kids at this level is not fair to the kids.
Dear Oby,
Thank you for sharing very candidly and I think your approach of doing what you can for yourself is very practical and positive and in turn does make it more bearable for you in areas that you do not have control.
Men are curious critters…why are we as women much easier to acknowledge weaknesses, problems and seek help yet men want to retrieve to the cave?
Abu Sinan,
Yes, you are right. But in many Asian societies it is believed to be the woman’s job to take care of the home and family, even if she is equally educated and doing the same job as her husband. In this aspect, India is very similar to Saudi Arabia and this cuts across religions and social groups in India. Men are just conditioned since childhood to be more engaged outdoors and not do any household work. It’s common to see Indian men who don’t know how to make tea or to make a sandwich for themselves – they are completely dependent upon women for every simple household work.
In traditional societies it worked because work was clearly divided along gender lines. But today with women getting educated and working themselves, this places an extra burden on them to work outside as well as in home and deal with children.
And this is further fostered across generations, since mothers also train their sons to be like this. So it’s not the fault of the men alone – the traditional system is not suited for the modern set up and even women keep the system alive eventhough it’s no longer practical to be like this. There needs to be a serious change in attitude towards household responsibilities now that more and more women are working outside and domestic help is not always easy to find in big cities.
My dad never and i mean NEVER walked into my school. The one time he came was when we had a final show when i was in my last yr. however I never felt the lack mainly because dad’s were not expected to show up, atleast the higher profile ones like mine, My mom/aunts and grandparents showed up religiously. Unless we slacked off in school and teachers had complains dad’s never got involved. Once my brother was not so obliging and my dad showed up to the mtg, the aftermath was not pretty.
Here it is very diff , culturally my spouse is expected to show up for all events and he does, unless he’s travelling or in surgery, and there are sooo many events in school. a few yrs ago with 2 kids in school we had 4 musical programs, 2 biography reading, 3 school cultural type events , 4 parent /teacher meets ,2 field days , not to forget thanksgiving program/mothers and fathers day events…. not to underestimate parent involvement, but that is waaaayyy tooo much . I even suggested we alternate each program, why take the whole family and visiting grandparent to visit a group musical, really that’s dandy in elementary but pales after a while. my spouse nixed that idea and insisted we all go to all events. so i dragged my very reluctant highschooler to my daughters musical prog. and this doesn’t include the outside school events, music/dance/sports… it makes a diff in the younger grades after about 5 th grade… i’d taper off the videocam/photo deal
and oh we forget the graduations.. there’s about 4 of those per kid till 12th grade… really i conser completing bachelors graduation.. where in parents attend/clap/dinner etc., etc., the rest in my opinion is a non-event, completing high school is MANDATORY. ya we can celebrate but it’s not a big deal.
Daisy…
Thank you for your kind words and understanding. I try my hardest, but it hasn’t been easy. I am just glad that I am now able to appreciate the good things rather than focus on the negative which I did for a long time and it really almost tore me apart.
I have no other option than to “cope”. But since the counseling it no longer feels like coping and much closer to being very OK. Not perfect, but very OK, even really great on occasion. At least I am not in a bad mood all the time anymore and I can truly enjoy life, him, us (whatever us is) and get on with things. LOL!
Thankfully, he is not entirely helpless and can do a few things. He’ll unload the dishwasher once in a while. And he will carry the laundry baskets full of newly folded clothes upstairs and take care of his own basket. And when I go out of town he takes great pride in doing his own laundry even though I have to handwrite out the directions and tape them to the machine, and show him how to divide up clothes so that he doesn’t wind up with pink underwear.LOL!
But yes, I have to say, Indians are very chauvinistic in some ways, but on the other hand there are some great things about Indians that I wouldn’t find in an American. So once I looked at it as a trade off it was better.
@Bedu…WHAT is it with that man cave thing??? Maybe women should try it!
@Abu Sinan…
I agree with you. Although he doesn’t see it as a chore per se, I do think he is missing a lot of stuff that can’t be recaptured and he might regret one day. Needless to say I am there for pretty much everything. I will say this, however…when he is home (and once in a while we get lucky and he is home early) he is very focused and involved with our daughter. Last night, even though he missed the winter concert she was in due to work, when he got home he and my daughter worked on homework together and then had some time watching a show together. So I am grateful for that. And he treats her with the most respect I have ever seen a father treat a daughter, very gentle, tolerant and playful and they laugh a lot together. So that is something.
@Radha…
Your post is so funny! Being the one that has to attend all the stuff I do feel like “enough already!” sometimes and I have only one child! I can’t imagine when there are several children involved and then of course you can’t treat one differently. You have to go to all or none. your explanation had me laughing imagining myself.
But also your statement about dad’s getting involved…that is exactly what my husband said. He said if if Dad has to step in to solve a situation it isn’t going to be a pretty sight!! So moms handle it until it is too out of hand and then Dad takes over! And he knew if Mom called for reinforcements he was in BIG trouble.
I just feel I need to say one thing about my husband lest everyone think he is a total jerk. The irony of this situation is that he has an AMAZING bedside manner. His patients adore him and he gets handwritten notes all the time thanking him for his care and telling him he is the best doctor etc. The thing is he doesn’t like small talk and says it is hard for him to banter back and forth with people. He would rather be quiet…Unlike me who finds it easy and can talk to a fence LOL! So it must take all the internal energy he has to always be “up” for his patients and spend all day talking when for me that would be heaven. That is probably why, when he gets home he doesn’t want to talk about anything more complicated than “How was your day dear and what’s for dinner?”
@oby,
I totally understand your husband, My kids and career are very imp to me, i somehow cannot place one over the other. Yes not the most PC thing to say, yes i’d pick to be with kids if i have to pick but that will make me depressed ,miserable and of no use to my kids either, on the other hand that makes me a easy parent .
As for school, less said the better, once a while program is ok, but this constant visits,volunteering etc., grates on my nerves,. My husband acts the doting dad .
ah well , i’m done being-anti kids . see that’s why i decided early in life i wanted 1 kid or less. i woudn’t give up my 2nd for anything, but i would have very happy with just 1 too and believe me life would have been way easier. ah i was young and stupid, what can i say.
Speaking of regrets in where families may not have been able to share to me are the high school and college graduations. To me, these are such monumental events in the life of the child and the parents that it is such a shame in Saudi Arabia most graduations are segregated. Although as mentioned, both parents are usually involved in helping with school work but I’d have been devastated not to have had my parents and grandparents at my graduations! Again…I guess a matter a culture and how we are all brought up to view and relate to things.
I know so many doctors both male and female who I will kid about being split personalities (in a nice way) due to their bedside/work manner and then once away from work do not want to think or talk about work in any way! I think that is pretty natural.
Oby, it was really kind of you to share your story. And I have to say it was brave of you to accept you couldn’t change your spouse, seek counseling AND stay in the marriage. Divorce is never an easy option and though it is sometimes inevitable it doesn’t need to be the only solution to a strained marriage. I feel people these days are too quick to divorce without really giving it their all to make it work or at least make it better.
It isn’t easy for any of us to write candidly about our marriages and that’s as it should be. We owe our spouses and the sanctity of our unions respect. And we should try our best to always remember this even when we are in need of advice and support.
Oby, I wish you continued strength and happiness in your life and thank you Bedu for posting on the topic.
I believe in reality and to me that is no marriage is ever always perfect. A marriage takes continued work and compromise. Sometimes a marriage can benefit from counseling. And if one part of the unit will not seek consoling, it says volumes for the one who goes to a counselor anyway to learn how to cope and tips and techniques for learning how to communicate better.
[...] American Bedu [...]