*Not all Saudi men thankfully are the way described below but this post is written as an advisory for those who have had little to no exposure to Saudi culture and the Saudi man.
For some reason it seems to be culturally acceptable for a Saudi man to abandon a woman, in spite of ‘alledged’ rights to which a woman is entitled. A high percentage of Saudi men will go outside the Kingdom as students or for employment. They are exposed to differing lifestyles and cultures. Many will gradually believe they have blended in to the new lifestyle and culture and eventually find themselves in a relationship. What most women who are unfamiliar with Saudi Arabia and Saudi men does not realize is that the Saudi man can be a most persuasive and charming speaker, kind of like the devil in disguise as the most magnificent Prince Charming. He can easily cajole a woman who would naturally resist strongly to give up her virginity to him. Now the Saudi man after receiving his “present” will either move on to other challenges (read conquests) or continue to enjoy the “free feast.” Yet if the woman becomes pregnant it is not surprising that the man will rapidly move on and avoid contact with the woman. After all, she is the one who is now pregnant, not him, so it is her problem.
The Saudi man who is outside of the Kingdom for a period of time also needs to be viewed with caution, particularly if he is older and therefore assumed to be more mature than a young student. This man may be even more charming and sophisticated and appealing to non-Saudi women of all ages. He will unlikely wear a wedding ring yet due to his age and position in life, most often married. But of course he would likely quip that he is not married, separated or divorced. The likelihood he has a Saudi wife and at least four children in Saudi. It does not bother his conscience to cheat on his wife. He is satisfying his needs and probably has the perspective that he is also bringing pleasure to a willing partner. Being more sophisticated and culturally savvy, he may even integrate himself into the family of the woman with whom he is having a relationship. He may make references or innuendos to a future with her and while probably sincere at the moment because he wishes it could be so, he also knows realistically there is no future and furthermore deep down he does not want a future with her. When his business or position which brought him outside of Saudi is complete, he’ll depart without a backward glance.
In both cases of the younger student or the mature sophisticate, they may not make any attempt to hide their involvement with a foreign woman outside of Saudi. The foreign woman may be introduced to their male friends. Of course she would not be known to any Saudi females or members of the Saudi family because the man is engaging in activities which are considered haram (forbidden) in his own country. While a woman may think it is flattering to meet his friends this is actually disrespectful in the Saudi culture. And of course when the man makes his exit from her life, the remaining Saudi friends will be polite to her but it becomes clear that no matter how kindly they treated her with him, she is an outsider and will never be accepted.
Then there are the Saudis who are married. First, like the sophisticate who seeks female companionship when outside of the Kingdom, he illustrates no loyalty or faithfulness to his Saudi wife. It is also ingrained in him that if his Saudi wife ever needs assistance, has problems or illness, how own “blood” family will take care of her. He views himself of absolved of responsibility. And if he is the Saudi with a foreign wife he will expect her to find her own way to solving problems and meeting her needs. If she becomes ill it is expected her expat friends and family (from abroad) will take care of her. He should not be exposed to illness or upsets. She is also not from the “same blood” so there is not an expectation or obligation on the part of his family either.
I hear of these situations more and more frequently. Most seem to come from someone in a relationship with a Saudi man over the age of 40. How come these men have become adults without a sense of responsibility or loyalty if someone is not from within the inner “blood” circle of family? Does this again go back to the impact of segregation and pre-defined roles of a husband and wife in an arranged marriage? Yet even in an arranged marriage or any Islamic marriage there are rights to which the woman is entitled. Sadly though, too many Saudi men make no effort to meet those rights and simply ignore them.
What options are available to the woman, regardless of where she is or what nationality, who finds herself abandoned by a Saudi? Saudi Arabia is the exclusive men’s club where the men do stick together and protect each other and women’s needs and rights are easily forgotten.
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As I was reading your post, I was wondering if you knew of someone to whom this has happened personally. It seems that you do. It seems to be like the good old boys club where men can behave like little boys without anyone to answer to…not even God. How is it they don’t worry about that aspect of it? Or is it because most of the women they “conquer” are non Muslims they figure that they don’t count and Allah won’t be angry about those women?
I am assuming that the women the students or older men are having relations with are Western/nonArab women…the implication being the Saudis/Arabs might be more familiar with their behavior either through personal experience or hearing stories from people they know and know to steer clear. The Westerners are more ill prepared for his charms.
He must indeed be a very charming soul for a woman who would have saved herself for love/marriage to be persuaded to give herself to him. He has no idea that she must have felt sure that he loved her/treasured her in order for her to give such a gift of trust and love to him and he has no idea of the damage he leaves behind when he uses her and leaves…or maybe he doesn’t care.
what is it about Saudi society that fosters that? How, if these guys are so heavily segregated from women do they learn what lines work so well in breaking down her defenses? Obviously it must be something that these guys learn from talking to each other. and that being the case they go specifically with the plan perhaps of “enjoying” outside of KSA.
It seems to me a case of “male privilege” being borne out by a lifetime of not having to take responsibility for his actions. and again it is also a case of ” if no one knows it isn’t wrong”. No inner sense of right or wrong or guilt at having used someone. Makes me really sad for the women who actually give their hearts to these guys and get shattered in the end.
@Oby,
One does not even have to be in Saudi to learn of some of the experiences women have encountered due to an involvement with a Saudi. Saudi men learn from the time they are young boys how to cajole and flirt with the best and of course, they are the apple of their mother’s eye. I believe that all Saudis, male and female, know so well how to speak with only the eyes.
Carol,
Thanks for this post. In fact this problem can be looked at from many angles.
It seems to be very deeply ingrained in them to treat a woman like a non-entity – the more I read the Quran and Hadith the more I get convinced of this. This behaviour pattern has built over 1400 years of Islamic experience. I have been conditioned to respect all religions and therefore, I do bring myself to understand all this in its proper historical context.
Think about this, a man can divorce his wife in 90 days’ time and not give her any care afterwards. He is conditioned by his religion to look upon a woman who associates with many men as a prostitute. If she gives herself upto him in relationship, that’s not the way of an honourable woman as far as Saudi religious-historical conditioning is concerned. Add to this his right to polygamy. You can see how far your post is removed from their perspective. I’m not criticising you, just saying that you’ve written with your rational, modernistic, democratic perspective of today. An Arab man thinks differently. He is not conditioned into this modernistic, rational, democratic thinking. It’s really surprising that they get married to any woman at all after having a relationship with her. I wonder how these few women achieve this marriage. Perhaps you can write a post on that.
When a Western woman gets into a relationship with a Saudi man, she is having a love and respect-based involvement in her mind. But for the Saudi man, she is a dishonourable woman who is “easily accessible” and hence, not fit for marriage. If she can do it with him, she can do it with other men as well. He won’t get married to such a woman. Never mind that the same can be said about him too.
As for being unfaithful to his wife, he is entitled to multiple wives and therefore, to look for potential partners elsewhere. The cultural and religious conditioning of polygamy makes “faithfulness” an unimportant – even discardable concept. Moreover, in their culture, it’s a matter of prestige for a man to have more than one woman as a sex partner – as wife or otherwise. Only weak and less capable men have only one woman.
And more “exotic” the woman the better it is. They don’t go for Black or Afro-American or dark-skinned South Asian women who may be Muslims, but rather for the White-skinned non-Muslim woman – THAT is a conquest.
In contrast to what you’ve written here, going for a Muslim woman and abandoning her is Haram – abandoning a non-Muslim woman is required by Islam, even if she is his wife, let alone a girlfriend, who in Islam is equivalent to a concubine anyway. And if she is dark-skinned, it is not a conquest – only slaves used to be dark in Arab history – they are meant only for clandestine prostitution when Arab men visit South Asia or North Africa. It’s not only cultural and religious – it’s a downright racist behaviour pattern.
I do feel White women shouldn’t get involved with them – it satisfies their racist religious-cultural superiority ego and the Caucasian women shouldn’t demean themselves in this manner.
At the same time, we have to be fair to the Saudi men. This behaviour pattern is not specific to Saudi men alone. In fact most men abandon or break up their partners – for different reasons. Men from most Arab countries do it. I have seen scores of Iranian, Palestinian, Afghan, Central Asian men do this. Is it only a Muslim man’s behaviour? – No, even Indian men do this to their own countrywomen – Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh, Jain, Buddhist, Parsi men alike. This incident is higher in cultures where arranged marriage system is the norm, because a man can find a wife in arranged marriage any time he likes – hence a girlfriend gets devalued. This is another angle to the story. I do feel arranged marriage system should be banned as a violation of human rights.
Again, is it not normal for the European and North Amrican men to abandon or break up with a girlfriend suddenly? Yes if she is carrying his child, he pays for the maintenance of the child, but does he necessarily live with her for this reason? No, he doesn’t. Western men have relationships outside marriage, outside engagement, outside a steady partnership.
Their reasons are different, not always religious or racist, but I have seen all kinds of men doing this. I have very little faith in men because of this. Those women are few who have got really an honest partner who keeps his word.
What a post and comments! Ugh. Makes me hate men.
(Not all of them.
)
@Daisy…
Your point about arranged marriages…not coming from that tradition, I actually saw it differently once i got usd to the idea. At first it seemed really weird to me that one could let someone else choose their partner. But it is also my understanding that the couple themselves have to agree to the partner at least in the more “enlightened” families.
According to my husband the whole process starts in the older family members often grandparents…it then filters to the parents who discuss among themselves and approve/disapprove the match. It is only when all the older parties of the family have chosen that the boy/girl meet and decide for themselves. It was explained to me that the parents will chose a better partner for their child because they know them best of all and would know what will work best with their personalities and also because the parents are not under the influence of sexual hormones when choosing the potential mate they are not likely to overlook things that might cause a bad mismatch. the partners enter the marriage with the expectation that there will be issues but that they will work them out.
I don’t know…it seemed to be a rational approach to me once I got over the idea that they were practically marrying a stranger. Does that mean they cheat more? I don’t know.
You said “In contrast to what you’ve written here, going for a Muslim woman and abandoning her is Haram – abandoning a non-Muslim woman is required by Islam, even if she is his wife, let alone a girlfriend, who in Islam is equivalent to a concubine anyway.”
Are you sure that is true? That means that the religion is saying that a non Muslim holds little or no value…in fact she might be a liability even if she is his wife. But the way I read the Koran it says there is no compulsion in religion…how can the two exist side by side?
Oby,
What you say about arranged marriage is all true at least in India – that’s how this system has survived in today’s times. In fact, once the couple meets, nowadays in urban areas they also kind of “date” – go out together, shop, discuss their future plans, their idea of a partner etc. What I mean in the context of this post is that there are a lot of cases where the man has had a girlfriend whom he drops when his family finds a girl for him and he marries the girl through the arranged marriage. His girlfriend doesn’t come into the picture and men can do this – ie, take their girlfriend for granted because they are always sure they’ll get a match through the arranged marriage system. If only this system didn’t exist, men would take their girlfriend more seriously because they would have known their parents aren’t going to find a girl for them.
About non-Muslim wife, while the marriage is legal if she is either a Jew or a Christian, the man can also divorce her because she is not being true to Allah – there are many contradictions in Islam as in all other religions. Christians pray to Jesus which is anti-Islamic and Jewish worship involves many rituals which Islam doesn’t permit, so he can always leave her on grounds she is engaing in anti-Islamic worship. Islam does have a very intolerant attitude towards apostasy.
As for Indian religions, it has already been remarked elsewhere in this blog that they are myths and a Muslim is not supposed to marry a person from indian religions unless she converts. It was said elsewhere that Islam is the the only “true religion” and that is also based on Quran. So one can really interpret Islam differently because there are contradictions within Quran and Hadiths themselves.
@Daisy…
Thank you for your explanation. I definitely can see what you mean about taking a girlfriend for granted. If you always have an ace in the hole why bother making an effort? an anaolgy of sorts: Sort of like the rich kid who knows that he has got a guaranteed place in Daddy’s business who, despite going to great schools and having lots of opportunity, doesn’t take his schooling seriously. Why bother? He is set for life and doesn’t have to compete on the job market.
Hmmmm…I have a lot to learn about Islam. I guess if you are Muslim it is the one “true religion”. Of course a Christian would beg to differ. And I think the Hindus are the most accepting of all in that they think that people should be free to worship in their own way. But perhaps that is why Allah said( I think) that he created many different people culturally and people of other religions and they should be left to worship their way. I even read the other day it (the Koran)said that Non Muslims should have absolute equal rights to Muslims. I do suppose there are many contradictions. You almost have to be a scholar! OK I am exaggerating…but certainly more than a couple of months reading!
I think I am off topic so I’ll stop here. Thanks again Daisy.
I have heard many of these types of stories as well. As soon as someone finds out that you have a connection to Saudi Arabia they want to tell you about their friend who got knocked up and abandoned by the “religious Saudi university student” or the house well known by everyone to be a drinking and druging Mecca owned by Saudis, or the Saudi who wanted a wet bar built in their basement to go with their full dance room floor.
All I can do is shake my head and relate some of the all too common horror stories I know about Saudi, well known shaikhs doing exorcisms along with young girls in rooms with their own tool being one of a personal nature,. King Fahd refusing to go into the Kabbah once because he feared for his life, Saudi diplomats providing women, drink and drugs to incoming members of the royal family and well known business figures, Saudi royalty spening thousands of dollars on a few pints of ice cream for their daughters, ect.
The stories are legion. I wish I could refute them, but they are all true.
The real sad part of Bedu’s post is that these guys will find “religious” leaders who justify these acts in the name of Islam. I have read statements before where so called scholars said that Muslim men were under no obligation to support children they father outside of wedlock because the children came from “haram” never mind it was the actions of the Muslim who caused their births in the first place.
Think about it, if these Saudi scholars will legalise prostitution, ie Misyar marriage, what WONT they allow if they have the right monetary or personal interest in doing so?
@Daisy
“Abandoning a non-Muslim woman is required by Islam, even if she is his wife, let alone a girlfriend, who in Islam is equivalent to a concubine anyway.”
Huh? Can you explain where is exactly abandoning a non-Muslim woman is required by Islamic sources? By that I mean actual quotes from the Quran? Are you sure you are not confusing Islam with behavior of Muslims?
“I do feel White women shouldn’t get involved with them – it satisfies their racist religious-cultural superiority ego and the Caucasian women shouldn’t demean themselves in this manner.”
I think when you re-read this statement in the light of day, you will see that it is pervaded by the same sentiment you seem to deplore – i.e. racism. We are all human beings, you know. Not little cliches walking around on our little cliche legs.
“About non-Muslim wife, while the marriage is legal if she is either a Jew or a Christian, the man can also divorce her because she is not being true to Allah – there are many contradictions in Islam as in all other religions. Christians pray to Jesus which is anti-Islamic and Jewish worship involves many rituals which Islam doesn’t permit, so he can always leave her on grounds she is engaing in anti-Islamic worship. Islam does have a very intolerant attitude towards apostasy.”
A man can divorce his wife on any grounds at all, and he in fact does not need any grounds to do so, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.
And what’s apostasy got to do with it?
Should I even use logic to try and understand this post?
Geez, and I’m not even Muslim.
NN,
About your 2nd point first – It’s evident you didn’t read my comment and response to Oby clearly. If I was racist, I wouldn’t have written “At the same time we have to be fair to Saudi men…” I have shown there that this is a universal behaviour, not only of Saudis.
About leaving a non-Muslim wife. It’s true a Muslim man doesn’t have to give reasons for divorcing a wife – another flaw in the way Islam constructs its divorce laws, but that’s besides the point. I already explained to Oby – and I think she understood it – that eventhough Quran doesn’t explicitly say marriage to non-Muslim woman from Abrahamic religions is not allowed and even allows marriage to a Jew and Christian woman, when Islamic injunctions are followed in practice, it can lead to a situation requiring the man to leave his non-Muslim wife, if she doesn’t convert. This is because of the way Quranic verses contradict each other – and before you call me a religious bigot, I would like to emphasise that this contradiction is true for all religions, not only Islam.
On one hand a Jew or Christian wife is allowed, on the other hand there are numerous passages in Quran advising the Muslims to stay away from, not make friendship with, treat as enemies – people who don’t follow Islam. I can give you the verses, but it will take me a few days.
And in any case, Islam allows marriage with only Jew and Christian women – what about other religions? – as I said to Oby, other religions are myths, they don’t even count. Add to that the idea that Islam is the only “true religion.” This last statement comes from Quran and has a strong grip on the psyche of the Muslim population. When you see all of this together, it’s next to impossible for a Muslim man to live with a non-Muslim wife if he takes these injunctions seriously. Either the wife converts or the marriage can’t function.
Of course, I follow the notion that all religions are equally valid and no religion is any more superior than the others. And I am leaving the Indian Muslims out of this – they are a different cup of tea. But if you look at this situation from where I stand, you’ll understand what I am trying to argue.
Oby,
Thanks. You can see again the contradictions – as you state, Quran states people of all religions should be left to worship on their own etc and on the other hand, see my references about non-Muslims in my response to NN. Quran gives both kinds of advices – and again one has to know the biography of Muhammad to understand these verses. In the different phases of his life these different verses were composed. During his early phase of his prophethood, he was taking the help especially from the Jews and later he turned against them because they refused to convert to Islam and also other strategic reasons. Same with his treatment of Kaba and Jeruslem.
@Daisy…
Interesting what you said that about the Prophet’s biography. I saw a show during the summer about the Prophets life…I forget the channel…probably National Geographic or something. Anyway, they were relating it to the Quran and how the Quran was a reflection of what was going on in the region both culturally and militarily at the time. To try to understand what the Quran said and how it is practiced today despite being written during another age when it was a whole different atmosphere was what started me on this path of reading and asking questions.
@Abu Sinan…
All I can say is “wow!” Your stories are pretty hair raising. Of all the places in Islam I would expect KSA to have the best behavior.
@ Abu Sinan…
You mentioned monetary interests for the Saudi Scholars. I saw a Muslim woman talk once on a program about how Islam is becoming more radicalized around the world. She was from Egypt. She said one of the contributors to this was the fact that earlier(60’s or 70’s) being an Imam was not a full time job. They did it for the love of it without pay volunteering their time and they had regular jobs that provided their financial support. She said since they have started accepting money and it is now a career in and of itself things have changed dramatically. They now had a “boss” to please and that changed the way they taught Islam or preached which in turn trickled down to the people and slowly changed the face of Egypt.
Do you think that is true? Was it like that in KSA also?
Thanks.
This post could be called ‘The Chronicles of Some Saudi Men Abroad.’ It is painfully true in a lot of ways. However, it should be also noticed that not only Saudi men who usually fall into this trap of alleged freedom, most men and from different cultures do as well, may be the Saudis are clearer because of their already closed society.
Oby,
Yes, that’s right – Quranic verses do reflect the changes going on at that time. It’s natural to proceed the way you are doing.
About the way Islamic clerics preach in the KSA, it’s been a rather complex process – When KSA was formed, the first King actually took the support of the orthodox Wahhabi sect to come to power. When his dynasty was established, it was difficult for the royal family to get out of this Wahhabi trap they got themselves into, since the entire idea of the Kingdom was based on this ideology. Moreover it was useful for them to keep the people under strict control. Now it seems the present king is trying to relax the ropes a bit. Let’s see if he succeeds, because there are orthodox groups within the royal family itself.
Bedu happy Eid . I would your descripton of Saudi men fits big part of men from any countries or religions.
American Bedu,
this was a really detailed and articulate post. I pay attention to such issues. I come from a place in the U.S. with a large concentration of the Middle Eastern diaspora, and I currently live in Turkey, which is 90+ per cent Muslim. While there are many shades of understanding within all religions, it has been really fascinating for me to try to piece together how people interpret Islam in their daily lives. Relationships have been a part of that learning process, and in the context of Islam it’s been a steep learning curve (without the possible results you’ve outlined above, I’m glad to say, tho’ I’ve heard of plenty to that effect.) I think you call it straight without stereotyping and I thank you for a thought-provoking read.
Daisy, thank you also for your comments. They too were insightful and explanatory without being judgmental (at least, I don’t find them judgmental, or overly so.) You sound knowledgeable, and I’ve really enjoyed reading this exchange.
And yes, Eid Mubarak, or Iyi Bayramlar!
Moral of the story, do not waste time getting involved with a Saudi man. Who has time to waste on this kind of mentality. Any independent women would scoff at this behavior, but live and learn, we all do. I find the mentality to be irritatingly backwards… When you give an arabic man the right to have 4 wifes then the whole concept of a real realtionship is out the window..
Isn’t most what’s written here is considered Human nature in general not just Saudi or an Islamic behavior, Religions in general tend to concentrate on good ethics and good social behavior.
Quran and authentic hadeeth doesn’t have contradictions, the issues are with human behavior not ISLAMIC behavior.
People have a tendency to justify thing to them selves using any means possible to escape from a situation and religion is frequently used throughout the ages not just now. So judging a religion based on some people who say they follow it to me it’s wrong if you have been subjected to bad examples from a certain society it’s not right to form a judgment on that society as a whole.
Islam doesn’t consider a girlfriend as a concubine. premarital relationship is forbidden yes whether it was with a muslim or a non muslim.
Islam bans racism all are equal only distinguished by their deeds toward their creature, look at hajj different colors and races together in one place.
Divorce to Allah is the worst of Hallal (permissible )
also in islam marrying with the intention of divorce in near future is considered a sin.
@Mohammed…
Your points bring me right back to my opening statement which was this: if these Saudi men are so pious in their own country why when they leave do they behave as if they are different human beings? It matters not at all where in the world you are God sees everything and knows ones heart.
It would be human nature AND the society that fosters these issues. From what I can see here and have heard, misyar marriages are allowable in KSA as preferable to fornication and therefore a lot of men must believe that Islam sanctions it. If your above statement is true then that is not the case and these men are sinning whether they are fornicating of having a misyar marriage. Therefore the Quran which came from God and cannot be changed has been changed a heck of a lot to fit the society and the society justifies the wrongs to make it halal.
@Mohammed…
You said…
Islam bans racism all are equal only distinguished by their deeds toward their creature, look at hajj different colors and races together in one place.
True…but the one thing you did not mention is that they are all Muslims and the way I understand it being a Muslim trumps nationality or race. If you are a Muslim you are part of the brother/sisterhood. Does the lack of racism apply to non Muslims?
In my religion I am not allowed to discriminate against another person whether they be Christian or not. I am told by my religion I am to treat all others as I myself would like to be treated. It doesn’t say I should treat other Christians ONLY as I would like to be treated and the rest don’t count or I shouldn’t be friends with them. What does Islam say?
Thanks for this post. it shows how women suffer when they make the wrong choices.
@Daisy
@Oby
@Mohammad
I believe this is a human nature because, according to statistics, more than 40% of American men abandon their wives or girlfriends. And more than 45 % of American women have trouble convincing their boyfriends to commit to marriage.
Those Saudi men are considered outcasts in Saudi Arabia and most Saudi men who get involved with non-Saudi women have usually lost their chances of marying a Saudi woman, so they resort to women whom they think inferior to them becasue they are not Arabs or Muslims. This is not waht I am saying, but I am just trying to expalin what those men think.
Again … I am not saying that all Saudi men who marry or have affairs with non-Saudi women are like this.
Oby
One of Prophet Mohammad’s wives was Chrisitian and one of his neigbours was a Jew…
Islam teaches us to respect all heavenly religions…In fact, in order to be a true Muslims, you MUST beleive in Christianity and Judism and when we mention any prophet before Prophet Mohammad, we must say (peace be upon him).
One of the Prophet’s famous pieces of advice at war times is not to kill people who are worshipping in a temple or a church…
Islam does not allow us to treat any human being in a bad way, even our enemies…it is to fight with honor but never to backstab an enemy or destroy his corps after his death…
There is a verse in Quraan that praises Christians and a Hadith that says that Christians are patient and kind…I will get back to you with the exact text soon inshaAllah.
thanks
Salaams Carol:
This post makes me want to puke. Especially when you wrote:
“Being more sophisticated and culturally savvy, he may even integrate himself into the family of the woman with whom he is having a relationship.”
These people are disgusting and arrogant. They put Western people down, but if someone would treat their family members (and women) that way, they’d want to kill them.
I appreciate all the thoughtful comments and also want to add, not all Saudi men are this way at all…yet there have been enough incidents that this is a topic that should be addressed.
In fact, I have found it is very common for a wife of a Saudi (whether foreign or Saudi) to state to her husband “is this how you would want your sister to be treated….”
J,
Thanks.
Mohammad,
Islam doesn’t have a concept of girlfriend – girlfriends didn’t exist in 7th century Arabia. Only concubines, slave girls, conquered women, prostitutes and wives existed. Girlfriend is a modern concept s owhere would a girlfriend be placed on this Islamic scale? Obviously as a concubine – the reason why it is not allowed in Sharia-ruled countries to have a girlfriend. Because Islam is not willing to become flexible with changing times.
Yes Quran says all people are equal in front of Allah. But when you begin practising Islam you realise there are contradictions within Quran in its different passages, which makes all people unequal. But as I said this is a feature of all religions, which means I’m not judging any religion.
Maha,
I did say it exists in all cultures – please read the second half of my comment. Thanks for the insight that such men are looked down upon in Saudi society.
What you say is true that Islam teaches to respect other Abrahamic religions as well – it’s there in Quran. But at the same time it’s also there in Quran to treat the people of other religions as enemies, to not associate with them, not to be friends with them, to pretend to be friends with them only if the situation requires, but to treat them in one’s heart as not friends. This is the contadiction in Quran as I explained above.
But it’s comendable that you have accepted the positive teachings of Quran, as any sensible Muslim should.
Oby,
Here is the account of Muhammad’s non-Muslim “wives” –
Raihana was a Jewish woman, captured and brought to Muhammad. She refused to accept Islam and stayed as his slave. Some sources say she accepted Islam later and was married to Muhammad, but refused to wear the Hijab and there was a rift between her and Muhammad, which was later reconciled. However, there is a controversy about whether she did accept Islam and was married to him or remained a slave.
Maria the Copt was an Egyptian Christian woman, sent as a slave to Muhammad, along with her sister Shirin. Muhammad gave Shirin to his follower Hasan ibn Thabit. On the other hand, there is a controversy about Maria’s status. Some say she was married to Muhammad and bore him a son who died in infancy, while others maintain she remained a concubine. There is also a belief that unlike the other wives of Muhammad who were housed in rooms adjacent to his own room in Madina, Maria was housed on the outskirts of Madina.
In any event, even if we accept Muhammad’s marriage to these women, both of them don’t really figure much in the Hadiths, which record the sayings of the Prophet on the testimony of his wives and other companions. These Hadiths are full of testimonies from Aisha – the young and most beloved wife of Muhammad, followed by his other wives such as Salama, Zainab, Hafsa etc., but Hadiths from Raihana and Maria are scarce – I haven’t come across any so far. If they exist they are scarce. It does seem Muhammad didn’t have much to do with these non-Muslim wives apart from having sexual intercourse with them on their appointed turns and giving them food and shelter.
In 7th century Arabia this system worked, because the society was organised that way, but you can see that it’s not likely to work today if a Muslim husband treats his non-Muslim wife on these terms and also holds the opinion that her religion is a false religion and that he can’t be friends with her in true sense because she is not following the only true religion in the world.
Oby,
according to some Islamic traditions, Maria accepted Islam before getting married to Muhammad – so she didn’t really live as a Christian wife of Muhammad, if this is true.
@Daisy
I beleive you haven’t read Quraan properly or you have read poor interperetation of Quraan.
Quraan NEVER orders us to be double-faced with Christians. It says to treat them as enemies at war times and to deal with them in a freindly manner with cuation, not with a hidden bad intention.
Please, read the Quraan again very well and read the interpretations of notable Islamic Sunnah scholars, not the shieaa or mutaswawifeen. And also read the life history of the prophet to know how generous and kind he was even with his so-called enemies.
Every time I read a comment by you, Daisy, I get a strong feeling that you are getting your information from the wrong sources. Please, don’t talk on behalf of Islam unless you become really well-inforemd about it or at least tell us about your sources, so we can refute them and see wheter they are reliable or not.
Thanks
@Daisy
The prophet has married a woman called Rihana? From where on earth did you get that?!!
And Islam came to eliminate slvery of both men and women…Islam never accepts prostitution.
All the information that you have about the Prophet’s wives is WRONG!
what are you? Are you a shieat or mutasawifa?
What books about Islam do you read? What scholaras do you read for?
Please, tell me….and stop spreading wrong information about Islam.
I will get back to this post with the correct information about the prophet’s wives.
thanks
@Daisy
Here is a clear verse from Quraan that states what Islam thinks of Christians:
From Al Emran
003.113 Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
003.114 They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.
003.115 Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knoweth well those that do right.
Here are some links about the Prophet’s wives and the reasons behind marrying them.
There is not one of them called Rehana.
He had a Jewish wife named Safiyah and he always used to defend her when some used to tease her becasue of her origin. He would tell her to tell them: I am the wife of a prophet and my father is Haroon and my uncle is Moses.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543986
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546160
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar&cid=1119503544000
A final note:
A true Muslim believes deeply that Islam is perfect and if any Muslim does not beleive so, he/she should not remain a Muslim. It’s a package; take the whole thing or leave it.
Thanks and sorry for my lengthy comments.
@oby
As for their behavior out side of the country because they don’t a fear of exposure by their families and the lack of fear of Allah they’ll be judged on their deeds whether in KSA or abroad.
As for islam treating other races or nationality of non muslims it’s mutual respect and tolerance. examples of this are the existence of christians and jews within the islamic state since the beginning of islam like coptic christian in egypt christian in current day syria, palestine, and iraq and jews in Jerusalem and Iberian peninsula during islamic rule there which is a good example of islam co-existing with other races and religions.
islam reached south eastasia through merchants and traders who treated the local population with respect and honesty.
in islam you can be friends with non muslims and treat them well.
@Daisy
the concept of girlfriend in islam is band because it’s a premarital relationship why should islam change to fit this situation of premarital relationship why wouldn’t the couple simply get married instead.
Finally I hope we all (Humans) find a path toward truth.
disagreement will exist between us whether we’re from the same religion, nationality and race or not. because we have different believes customs ways of thinking or life would be dull if we had the same ideas and concepts.
==PEACE==
Maha,
There is much more to that chapter of the Quran that you left out.
Would it be accepted if one were to say all kinds of horrible things about Muslims, as long as they say Not ALL of them are alike but just don’t take them as your friends or allies because you will become like them and be doomed to hell?
I think the Quran is VERY clear about what it thinks of people who believe that Jesus is anything other than a simple prophet. True?
@Lynn
Yes, there is much more of that Surah, but we are focusing here on the way Islam thinks of Christians on a personal level; not on a political level.
Islam did say that we shouldn’t take Christians as allies, but this is in relation to war; not in personal encounters.
The Quraan disapproves of the people who beleive that Jesus is God’s son as it is against the basic nature of Islam which is based on beleiving that there is only one God who does not have a son or daughter or wife.
the people who beleive that there is more than one God or that God has a son are considered (mushrikeen) or disbeleivers. What is wrong about that? This is Allah’s religion and He gets to set the rules. This He is not a human being like you and me; he is God. If you have trouble in beleiving in something more sacred, powerful, and higher than yourslef than this is your problem.
Islam doesn’t force you to believe in Allah and this is very clear in Surat Al-Baqara:
002.002 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God;
002.003 Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
002.004 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
002.005 They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
002.006 As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
002.007 God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
and later:
002.256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out Clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.
Islam gives you the choice, yet informas you of the consequences of your choice. You don’t want to believe in Islam? fine, but you must respect it because we – Muslims – respect Christianity and beleive in Jesus and Moses and all the other prophets mentioned in Quraan.
Just becasue you don’t agree on Islamic teachings it means that Islam is wrong.
Thanks
Maha,
First, calm down.
First, what am I – a Shia or a Mutasawifa? I am just a human being and hope I remain so all my life.
Lynn has got it right – Islam is very clear about those who do not worship only Allah and rather pray to Jesus.
And there are no Christians who do not pray to Jesus Christ – that’s why they are called Christians.
What sources do I cite? Not any secondary sources but directly from Quran and Hadith. Where do I get my translations? You may be surprised – From an Arabic expert who has received an Islamic religious education and is a believing Muslim.
About Raihana the Jew – I said above it is disputed whether she was married to Muhammad. She definitely refused to convert at least for some time. I was trying to show that Muhammad didn’t marry a Jew who didn’t convert – that was the topic of discussion – whether it’s possible to have a functional marriage with a Muslim if one doesn’t convert and if the muslim man does take the Quranic injunctions seriously.
About Safiya – She was captured after her Jewish tribe was destroyed. She was brought as a captive slave. First Muhammad allowed his follower Dahiya to have her. When informed by another follower that she was the daughter of the chief of the Jewis tribe and very attractive, Muhammad asked Dahiya to have another slave girl. He himself offered to marry Safiya if she converted to Islam. She agreed and he married Safiya as a MUSLIM woman without paying Mahr to her, because according to the Islamic set up she was a slave girl captured in war and he set her free – that was her Mahr. Never mind that she was the chief’s daughter and they had captured her and Muhammad in fact took her away from Dahiya who had got this “prize” earlier. Speaks a lot about whether a non-Muslim woman could marry a Muslim man without accepting Islam and how she was treated. In fact, there are not many Hadiths from Safiya either, just as in the case of Maria.
I didn’t say Islam accepted prostitution – prostitutes existed and on another post I had said Muhammad banned those relationship patterns so didn’t repeat it here.
I have said it elsewhere on this blog that I do not rely on any English translations of Quran as they are not reliable. Internet sites are much worse. I don’t want to repeat that entire argument here.
Please see the following from Quran –
V/51 – “…Take not the Jews and Christians for your friends and protectors…Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.”
III/28 – “(Believers) let not take for friends or helpers the non-believers rather than the believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah…”
III/110 – “Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.”
III/118 – “O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse…”
See also the Haith from Sahi Al-Bukhari, about not marrying non-Muslim women –
Book 63/Ch 18/ V209 – Nafi narrated, Ibn Umar said about a Muslim man marrying a Christian or a Jewish woman – Allah has made it unlawful for the believers to marry women who ascribe partnership to Allah and I do not a greater thing than ascribing partnership to Allah that a lady should say that Jesus is her Lord although he is just one of Allah’s slaves.”
I am surprised you mention on your blog you’ve studied English literature but your comprehension ability of English doesn’t support it.
Maha,
First, calm down.
First, what am I – a Shia or a Mutasawifa? I am just a human being and hope I remain so all my life.
Lynn has got it right – Islam is very clear about those who do not worship only Allah and rather pray to Jesus.
And there are no Christians who do not pray to Jesus Christ – that’s why they are called Christians.
What sources do I cite? Not any secondary sources but directly from Quran and Hadith. Where do I get my translations? You may be surprised – From an Arabic expert who has received an Islamic religious education and is a believing Muslim.
About Raihana the Jew – I said above it is disputed whether she was married to Muhammad. She definitely refused to convert at least for some time. I was trying to show that Muhammad didn’t marry a Jew who didn’t convert – that was the topic of discussion – whether it’s possible to have a functional marriage with a Muslim if one doesn’t convert and if the muslim man does take the Quranic injunctions seriously.
About Safiya – She was captured after her Jewish tribe was destroyed. She was brought as a captive slave. First Muhammad allowed his follower Dahiya to have her. When informed by another follower that she was the daughter of the chief of the Jewis tribe and very attractive, Muhammad asked Dahiya to have another slave girl. He himself offered to marry Safiya if she converted to Islam. She agreed and he married Safiya as a MUSLIM woman without paying Mahr to her, because according to the Islamic set up she was a slave girl captured in war and he set her free – that was her Mahr. Never mind that she was the chief’s daughter and they had captured her and Muhammad in fact took her away from Dahiya who had got this “prize” earlier. Speaks a lot about whether a non-Muslim woman could marry a Muslim man without accepting Islam and how she was treated. In fact, there are not many Hadiths from Safiya either, just as in the case of Maria.
I didn’t say Islam accepted prostitution – prostitutes existed and on another post I had said Muhammad banned those relationship patterns so didn’t repeat it here.
I have said it elsewhere on this blog that I do not rely on any English translations of Quran as they are not reliable. Internet sites are much worse. I don’t want to repeat that entire argument here.
Please see the following from Quran –
V/51 – “…Take not the Jews and Christians for your friends and protectors…Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.”
III/28 – “(Believers) let not take for friends or helpers the non-believers rather than the believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah…”
III/110 – “Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.”
III/118 – “O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse…”
See also the Haith from Sahi Al-Bukhari, about not marrying non-Muslim women –
Book 63/Ch 18/ V209 – Nafi narrated, Ibn Umar said about a Muslim man marrying a Christian or a Jewish woman – Allah has made it unlawful for the believers to marry women who ascribe partnership to Allah and I do not a greater thing than ascribing partnership to Allah that a lady should say that Jesus is her Lord although he is just one of Allah’s slaves.”
I am surprised you mention on your blog you’ve studied English literature but your comprehension ability of English doesn’t support it.
Maha,
You posted while I was typing. The verses I quoted above are not in relation to war. But as I said, it is commendable that you want to take the positive note from the Quran.
Sorry Carol, somehow two comments have got posted above.
Maha, yes, there is much more to that surah and what you had quoted had kind of lost some of the context of it all didn’t it?
‘the people who beleive that there is more than one God or that God has a son are considered (mushrikeen) or disbeleivers. What is wrong about that?’
There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that. Just don’t get your feeling hurt when the ‘Disbelievers’ don’t want to trust you when you tell them that you respect them.
‘Just becasue you don’t agree on Islamic teachings it means that Islam is wrong’
Did you mean to put an ‘isn’t’ or a ‘doesn’t’ in there somewhere?
@ Maha
You said:
“The Quraan disapproves of the people who beleive that Jesus is God’s son as it is against the basic nature of Islam which is based on beleiving that there is only one God who does not have a son or daughter or wife.
the people who beleive that there is more than one God or that God has a son are considered (mushrikeen) or disbeleivers. What is wrong about that? This is Allah’s religion and He gets to set the rules. This He is not a human being like you and me; he is God. If you have trouble in beleiving in something more sacred, powerful, and higher than yourslef than this is your problem.”
Your statement is correct from a MUSLIM perspective and it is correct for YOU, but it is not the only point of view. It would not be correct from a CHRISTIAN perspective. For Christians there is a son of God sent to bring His (God’s) message. And therein lies the problem. You, being a good Muslim think you are right and everyone else is wrong. But a Christian (and I could use any religion but let’s just use Christian for now) would think that you got it wrong and that they are the right ones.
You said:
“This is Allah’s religion and He gets to set the rules.” Perfectly true…if you are a Muslim.
I could as easily say ” This is God’s religion(from the Christian understanding of God) and He gets to set the rules” and from a Christian perspective I would be right.
what I am trying to say here, and perhaps in a crude way, is that everyone thinks that they have a direct line to God as per the revelation made to their leaders/prophets etc. The point is that we should all respect each religion. Each of us can smugly believe that we are right, but we have NO RIGHT to hurt/insult/damage another person’s belief.
I think what makes non Muslims uncomfortable is that the Quran seems to advocate that Muslims should think of themselves as better than non Muslims and not associate in a true and honest way with them. Yet what Mohammad said earlier seems to refute that…so the question is what should Muslims think as well as non Muslims?
whereas for Christians we are told we must treat all people whether Christian or not as equal. That means a Christian holds no higher value than a Muslim…but it doesn’t seem that way in the Quran. And personally, it doesn’t bother me that someone would think of me as less than them…what bothers me about it is that if they ACT on their beliefs that can lead to a lot of problems. It might keep people from reaching out to each other in a friendly manner and that sense of superiority if acted upon can have some long term negative consequences…
@Oby,
You assume all Christians believe that Jesus is the literal son of God. This is historically incorrect and isnt correct today. The issue of the trinity was a huge dividing issue amoungst the first and early Christians as was the divinity of Jesus. It lead to conflict and many, many deaths.
I have known more than a few Christians who do not believe in the Trinity as it is preached by most modern Christians, not do they believe in the divinity of Jesus.
When you say that such beliefs are a part of Christianity, you speak for yourself and not all Christians. It is YOUR Christian perspective, not others.
As to treating people differently, you might think The Qur’an causes issues in this regard, but I have seen the same behavior from Christians. Reminds me of the one co-worker who once stood up and announced that everyone that didnt believe in her brand of Christianity was going to hell, including other Christians. It explained why she treated everyone the way she did.
‘As to treating people differently, you might think The Qur’an causes issues in this regard, but I have seen the same behavior from Christians…’
Saying that someone else does the same thing does not change the facts which are being discussed which are that Muslims are NOT really taught to respect Christians or other non believers.
@abu Sinan
Yes, your last sentence is my point. It is silly to say that anyone who does not believe in “MY” religion(whatever that religion is) is going to hell as per your coworker and that was the point I was trying to make…as I said I may not have said it eloquently.
And the Quran is not the only Holy Book that causes issues because I have the EXACT same problem with Christians who think that their brand of religion is the best and look down their nose at others. They are NOT supposed to. All are supposed to be equal but do they practice that? Hell no! And it ticks me off just the same because that attitude is divisive no matter what religion it comes from.
You said:
” I have known more than a few Christians who do not believe in the Trinity as it is preached by most modern Christians, not do they believe in the divinity of Jesus.
When you say that such beliefs are a part of Christianity, you speak for yourself and not all Christians. It is YOUR Christian perspective, not others.”
And that is fine…Perhaps it is MY perspective.(which it isn’t neccessarily…I am trying to debate in the abstract here) But that does not give me the right to condemn the others who might be working their way to God as best as they can.
What I was saying is some have said that the Quran doesn’t support racism and some have said it does vis a vis the conflicting passages. The Bible is full of negative statements too. Muslims are going to continue to think they are right. Christians will continue to think they are right. Jews and Hindus and others the same. It gives NO ONE the right to think of or treat people of a different religion in anyway other than a good and kind way and as equals. Once people start thinking “they” are better, they often act and follow that pattern and it can cause trouble.
I had a very dear friend who I had for years who became more stringent in her Christian faith. She definitely did not go so far as to preach hatred against anyone or any religion and certainly was not Fundamentalist in the true sense of the word, but she became very rigid in her beliefs and views so much so that we were no longer able to discuss God or faith. Prior we were able to have really wonderful and stimulating conversations…all that disappeared not because she changed her faith but because she changed how she INTERPRETED it. And sadly that part of our friendship ended though we certainly remained friends over the years, we just couldn’t discuss religion because I was rooting for all good and God loving people of all faiths to get in and she was convinced it was going to be a Christian club.
oops…meant to say in the last sentence “get into heaven”.
Great post and very insightful comments from Daisy,
Though I can’t imagine how these saudi man could behave in such a way that simply treats woman like objects, but I also wonder, why aren’t woman in saudi speaking up?? I mean, sorry, but if every man, has 4 wives, then woman are the majority in the family, just stand up and beat the man up, show some teeth and colour……… aha, forgive me, I just get angry sometimes by reading the stories. change never comes easily , but i do wonder, why Muslims in many other countries live a much more normal life and have a much more balanced relationship between genders, it is in Saudi…that this man dominance really getting exaggerated.,,,poor woman
@Daisy
First of all, I am calm.
Second, I am a human just like you my dear , but ALL true humans must have a belief…only animals and less creatures don’t have a belief, so your answer to my question is not clear. I don’t think that there is any shame or harm if you clarify your belief like everyone here.
I won’t argue anymore at this post about the verses above because it’s off topic.
Your understanding of Quraan and its interpretation is completely wrong, and I wish that you declare the name of your Muslims scholar, so I can discuss many matters with him directly.
The links that I’ve provided are from a reliable website, which many Islamic scholars have approved of its content.
I hope that you clarify your identity and religion, so that I can understand from where you come.
The story about Safiyah that you’ve mentioned is so wrong and misleading, that’s why I insist that you tell me who is this great scholar you are taking your information from.
To everybody:
Not all verses in Quraan should be practiced. There are many verses that were for specific reasons and occasions, but they still remain part of the Quraan for the record, not for us to follow.
General rules for readign the Quraan:
1. after reading the verse, make sure that you know whether the order in it is for certain people, certain time, or for all Muslims at any time.
2. read the interpretation by notable Islamic scholars (those are not Saudis by the way) — the best are Sheikh Mohammad Al-Sharawi, Sheikh Yousif Al-Qaradawi, and Sheikh Khaled Al-Jundi (who is married to a Christian)
3. read the related verses of the verse you are trying to understand. Sometimes verses explain and compliment one another.
Last,
If you are not really looking for the truth…If you are reading Quraan with the intention of rejecting what’s in it, then please don’t read Quraan. It won’t add to you.
If you hate Islam or if you’re not convinced, don’t bother to read Quraan.
We_Muslims_respect all people of all religions, and we don’t consider them our enemies until they start attacking us. If we are attacked or insulted, we are ordered by our religion to talk with who tries to belittle us, and we are ordered to be patient with them and try to understand why they think of us the way they do. If these steps don’t work, we are ordered to deal with those with caution.
@oby
I can’t agree more. everyone’s religion is the best from their opinion, and we as Muslims are asked to believe in Christianity in its original unaltered form (which is not different from Islam at all) — beleiving in one God only and that Jesus is a prophet and that Mohammad is the last prophet.
Do you know that we_Muslims_are waiting for Jesus to lead us in prayer after the Mahdi appears? Do you know that we are ordered to pray behind Jesus, and if we don’t, we are not considered good Muslims?
The problem is not in what the Quraan says about Christians; the problem is in some Muslims’ attitude and the way they look at Christians. They look at them as (kuffar) who will surly go to hell. Unfortunately, this is a wide-spread attitude among Muslims, but it is NOT healthy, nor proper according to the genuine teachings of Quraan and Hadith.
When I meet a Christian, I NEVER think that she is less than me or that she will go to hell. I know some Muslims do, but it is wrong and those have understood the verses about the Christians in a wrong way just like Daisy and her scholar have done.
The prophet’s life is full of stories that shows we are not allowed to judge non-Muslims or look down at them.
Thanks.
Maha,
You didn’t get the meaning of my sentence as I said your comprehension ability of English is poor – my religion is humanitarian values – nothing more and nothing less.
I am not obliged to declare the identities of people I consult just because you say so – you don’t regulate my life. I know someone who is knowledgeable and is willing to help me, that doesn’t mean I should drag him in this conflict with you. You don’t have the authority to make rules for everyone – about how he should think, how I should think and on what conditions I should read the Quran. Quran is publicly available and I am free to read it – you don’t have any right to tell me how I should construct my thinking and reasons for reading Quran.
The websites you’ve referred to are meant for guiding the Muslims in a mental makeup where they don’t use their own brain, simly blindly follow what they are told to follow – that’s not my way of analysis – I use my brain and talk to people who use their brain.
Just because I bring to the people passages from Quran they may not be aware of, it doesn’t mean I am wrong. Whether I’ll go to hell and whether I even want to go to the Islamic description of heaven is my personal issue – I may not even want to go to the heaven as Islam describes it for my own reasons. You don’t have to pass injunctions on others about who’ll go to hell and who won’t.
All the stories I have told about Muhammad’s wives are true and based on indepth research. As I said, in a way it is commendable that you want to use the Quran only for positive purpose, but that doesn’t obliterate the fact that certain passages in Quran are conflicting and it’s not possible for a non-Muslim woman to have a functional marriage with a Muslim who takes Quran seriously.
There is no point in saying these passages aren’t meant to be followed – the entire Quran is supposed to be the divine word, not only parts of it. Your argument that parts of this divine word are not meant to be followed is not logical.
Of course I sincerely wish that every Muslim thought like you and used the Quran only in a positive sense, but that’s not true. Perhaps you are not aware that there is a whole lot of scholarship in the West about these passages and similar pasages in the Bible, to understand how people are being convined by orthodox religious groups to engage in terrorism and violent activities.
Jill,
Thanks for appreciating. While I would like to beat a husband to pulp if he beats me, perhaps you don’t know the condition in Saudi Arabia – if Saudi wives beat up a husband, he’ll go out and call the religious police or the orthodox clerics and after that God save his wives!
@Maha…
Thank you for that very clear and beautifully thoughtful answer…I appreciate your effort explaining. And thank you for providing the scholars that you did. I will try to find their books at my library.
I WISH just for once ALL people of all faiths would realize that we all love God and we are all doing our best in our own ways to follow Him. We may not agree on the WAY(ie religion) that is the best..but is that what really matters? Isn’t it far more important that we agree that we LOVE GOD and want to emulate His goodness on earth? Can’t we agree to disagree with those who have chosen a different path, yet respect their right to their particular chosen path and spiritual experience and leave them in peace and friendship?
ah! Just dreaming out loud!
Thanks again Maha!
Oh My Goodness!
Not that anyone will care, but at this point I am so confused about what is and isn’t right about the Qur’an and who to listen to about what is said and what references to use I feel like my head is spinning! I had no idea it would get this complicated to learn about Islam. Silly me, I thought it was a matter of reading asking questions and learning. Both Daisy and Maha sound plausible to me…and maybe that is the problem. It is difficult to understand which thoughts are right when you don’t know much. No offense to either of them. Both of them have been patient in trying to explain Qur’an to me and I appreciate their efforts SO MUCH!
When I told my mother I was going to try to learn about the Qur’an to see what it really says she told me ” you’ll never find the answer because it will be different for each person” Maybe she spoke the truest words of all. It certainly seems that way.
My post to Maha was written and posted BEFORE I saw Daisy’s post. I read Daisy’s post after my post to Maha went up and that is why this seems out of order and out of place and contradictory to my post to Maha. Just wanted to explain in case it seemed wacko to anyone.
Oby,
I guess we shouldn’t get so deeply entrenched in what the Quran says – we should know that there are positive and the negativ passages there as in all the religious texts of the world. It’s a religion like any other religion, that’s all.
As long as we follow the basic humane values and don’t try to claim we are superior to others and our truth is the only truth in the world while praying to God in whichever fashion suits our taste and needs, we are going to be fine.
@ Daisy…
I agree with you.
I just wanted to learn Qur’an from the source rather than from someone who knows someone who knows a Muslim…you know…someone too far removed from Islam to be credible. LOL! Who knew it would get so complicated!
A blogger that is very knowledgeable about Islam said that she looked into the “dummies” books a few years ago, curious if they were accurate. She said that she thought that they were very accurate and that they were excellent sources of knowledge for a neophyte to islam. That would be me…oby Neophyte LOL! So I am going to start at the MOST basic place and hopefully build on my info.
I just want to thank American Bedu for her post. All I can say is that the original post and the discussion it has sparked has help to clarify a great many things for me. I recently had an experience with a Saudi male that left me baffled, hurt, and bitter.
Fortunately, I did not fall hard enough to offer anything in the way of “presents” (something I believe should be reserved for marriage). However, I felt abandoned no less when suddenly after months of being together he just never called again. I called him and he never called me back.
I thought that I’d met the most charming prince among all Arabs. He wore the thobe and ghutra and I wanted to melt. He was so polished, but comfortable with himself, and I love everything about it. It sounds very cheesy. But he gave me the feeling that I was respected, protected, understood. Around his Saudi male friends, he beamed and bragged on my intelligence. I found it very easy to talk to him about anything from world politics to travel.
I was respectful, always considerate of his cultural perspective. I never hugged him during Ramadan (so as not to “tempt” him). I never wore sleeveless clothing and rarely wore short sleeves. I was a wonderful host. I treated his friends nicely. I’ve held a passion for understanding Middle Eastern culture for many years. I knew a lot about Saudi culture (or so I thought) long before meeting him. I used the knowledge I had of Arab culture to relate to him and hopefully make him feel comfortable. I tried to think of how I would want to be treated in Saudi, should I ever find myself there. Although I went to great lengths to understand him and who he was, I never gave up being who I was. Afterall, he made me feel as if who I was was good enough for him. He always told me that I was unlike any American he had ever met. He seemed to love that I was modest (thanks to my moderately-conservative American upbringing), ambitious, and self-respecting. Although I am not Muslim, we shared similar backgrounds and were reared much in the same way. We talked seriously about family, life, and love. Most importantly, we had a strong connection.
Was I too good of a girl? A week after avoiding me, we showed up at a gathering of a mutual friend and he had another women on his arm. This women, who he still is seeing, is nothing like me. In fact, it is very clear that we are polar opposites. We were friendly at this gathering, but haven’t spoken since. I kept waiting on an explanation, for why we were together, he dumped me, and a week later had a new girl. I never got one.
When I see him, he doesn’t seem the least bit phased by the fact that he never offered me one. Is that the Saudi way? Is it true that his culture has helped to foster the attitude that communication with women is optional or uneccessary? Sometimes I can’t help but wonder if the looming reality of his return to Saudi, is his reason for choosing the sort of dating style that seems common among Saudi university students in America and UK ( looking to manipulate. achieve fun. move on)? I can’t help but to wonder if the confines of his society in Saudi are the reason why he chose the “bad ” American girl over the “good” American girl? Does the fact that he will return to a culture, which doesn’t allow him to openly date, seek much privacy from his family and friends, and will pressure him to marry and produce soon…does that have anything to do with his choice between the two of us (very different value-holding Amercan women)? Is it a Saudi thing? A man thing? or A me thing?
I’m not looking for dating advice. I’m just looking for the truth. The original post and comments have been very helpful to me. I read this blog and feel better. I feel as if it is helping me to become less afraid, more informed and better equipped for the interactions I may or may not have with Arab culture. I’d really like it if a few of you could weigh in.
Oby,
Yes I said earlier that these books give a fairly basic idea of Islam. But Rachel had wanted to get close to the Arabic text, that’s why I said that the only way to do that was to consult an Arabic scholar, which is what I do. In your case, starting from that basic level is only reasonable.
The translations and the Islamic concept I am writing about here are done after consultiing this scholar, but its historic context and explaining the way any term has evolved, the direction in which this interpretation and discussion should go etc is based on my years of training in religious historical research – it’s a kind of a combined effort and neither one of us can produce this text without the expertise of the other. I am not that far removed from Islam as it may appear to someone from a distance – Islam is all around me here and I have been reading on this topic for many, many years. In academics, what matters is not whether someone is born in a tradition, but how much work the person has done on a topic. Indeed, European scholars have done more work on Indian culture than the Indian scholars and their work is equally valid.
But of course, you are right – starting from the basic level is the right thing to do, especially when everyone may not have access to an Arabic scholar.
My advise to learn and understand what the Quran means is to contact an Islamic Center. The Centers always have classes teaching and explaining the Quran. As in many cases of religious books, there may be differing interpretations but I think it is a good place to start. A group I was with met weekly. Each week we would read and discuss different chapters. We were each expected to advise what we were hearing and what it meant and then discuss the differences (if any). These were classes for women only and were enjoyable.
@culturewatch,
Welcome and thank you for your detailed comment sharing your experience. His actions could have been for so many differing reasons…maybe someone said he was getting too friendly with you and feared his scholarship could be placed in jeopardy….someone in his family learned he was spending too much exclusive time wtih a western woman and shut him down…or sadly, he wanted to just move on without facing any “emotional baggage” that he would fear from explaining to you. For the Saudi man who simply moves on I interpret that as a man who has little feelings for anyone other than himself. He is focused on self-gratification and pleasure and towards meeting his objectives he will be the “dream prince.”
We also have some Saudi women here who I hope will share some insights too.
Culturewatch,
From what you say, it does seem he was looking for a pleasure trip, not a committed relationship – not directly sanctioned by Islam, but certainly shaped by his religious-cultural conditioning. Again, not necessairly an exclusive Saudi behaviour.
I feel if these men had the freedom in Saudi Arabia to mix with women, they would do the same to the Saudi women – they are conditioned to look at women as non-entities. Non-Arab or non-Muslim women are just a few degrees lower. It’s just that the law doesn’t allow them this freedom there.
Consider yourself fortunate you didn’t get into greater trouble getting married to him and getting stuck in Saudi Arabia with all its restrictive laws, prospects of polygamy, family pressures, divorce with no support and deportation etc.
Culturewatch,
I appears that you have dodged a bullet. Still, I’m sure the experience was very painful but take it as a lesson learned and be thankful for it.
Because we don’t have the concept of the “arranged marriage” in the West, the way people get to know each other and decide if a partner is suitable for marriage is through dating. There is no time limit on it-could be brief could be long-it is up to the particular couple to decide what works for them.
The Saudi men take advantage of this system and exploit it for their own use. The women, used to the system, think that is what they are doing…getting to know a person and form a bond with them that very well might lead to marriage. Too often, it seems, he is just using the system to have fun. He knows he is expected to get married and do it quickly once the decision is made with no dating. (see a post on “what saudi women think by umm ibrahim)
I also thinks it goes right back to what Daisy said previously about not taking a girlfriend seriously because he knows his family will find him a wife.
Culturewatch…I know it hurt but I am so happy that you didn’t get hurt more or surrender to him more. Lesson learned…
@Daisy…
I wanted to say that I truly respect your knowledge and the patient efforts you have made to explain not only to me but to the members of the blog in general. With your background specifically in religious research I respect and value your opinion and will certainly be eagerly looking forward to future info and comments from you.
@American Bedu
Darn good point! I live near a Mosque. My ONLY concern is as I am not Muslim, this would be classes for people interested in converting rather than simply understanding. I would have about a million questions and I am afraid that it might disruptive to others. That is why I started on my own…so I don’t bug the heck out of people. Is it OK to question and ask about certain passages etc?
First of all, there are nice saudi men around, so don’t despair
Yes it’s very easy for them to abandon women, not much accountability there, if it’s ok to do it and they don’t face much repercussions , why the heck would they take responsibility. Those that do,have probably been taught to behave well or have had a few hard knocks and learnt. There’s not much a woman can do, till she’s empowered there not much hope there.
As for the youngsters in a relationship with 40+ yr old saudi men. if you’re say 20 , you have no business with a 45+ yr old , he is definetly more mature and capable than you. think about it. even if he marries you and has a god life there’s a great chance he’ll die in 20 yrs, when you’ll be just 40 and then what?
we know of a person – saudi who’s in a relationship with an almost 20 yr old, he’s around 48. so sad . we met them at a party . Imagine our plight, me and the other ladies meet after dealing with teenagers all week long we escape to a party and who do we meet but another teen…same talk, same attitude..uuuughhh i ran to the other end of the room..
As for the discussion about religions, responsibility has nothing to do with it. Idiot men who have no responsibility are just jerks. muslim jerks or christian jerks – makes no difference.
Oby,
Thanks. Yes you are right – those classes are not only aimed at conversion, they are designed to channel your mind to not open the Islamic discourse to any criticism – that’s how most Muslims can’t accept criticism of Islam. Now that I think about it, since you are starting to read the basic guidebook, you may also read the English translation of the Quran – you won’t get the exact Arabic meaning, but you’ll get a general sense of what the verses are saying. If there is some misunderstanding about the meaning and context of specific terms etc, as you read more that will be sorted out in the long run – you have to be open to keeping on readjusting your understanding of a term. Do read the books I suggested earlier. I think for a year or so this is enough reading material for you!
@Culturewatch.
I am sorry you had an unpleasant experience with your prince. You say you are looking for truth, not advice. The truth about his reasons and motives you will never know because it is not possible to understand another human being and they sure as hell aren’t anxious to tell you.
Luckily, the only truth you really need to know is this: he didn’t want to be with you. There is no other explanation, no “but he really does like me…”, “but his scholarship makes it difficult…” no other buts. He stopped talking to you because he doesn’t want to be with you, and this truth he is conveying to you very clearly without words with his actioins. Now is he behaving like a jerk? absolutely. My point is, stop wasting time guessing about his motives and reasons. Stop looking for an explanation. Understand that this person doesn’t want to be with you, and move on! The world is full of men.
Is the Saudi factor at play there? Probably. But it doesn’t change the basic fact: he didn’t want to be with you. Who really cares about his reasons? Sayonara, loser!
What I irecommend is that you get a book called “He’s just not that into you.” It’s short and kind of simplistic but gives you tremendous understanding and teaches you to stop using excuses to justify a man’s bad behavior. Move on, and learn to conduct your next relationship from the position of strength.
Also, please understand that all men, ALL MEN, not just Saudi, have a mental classification system of women who are potential wives and potential nonwives. Saudis probably apply a different set of standards to separate the two, but this process goes on in the brain of every man. Understand this. It would help you to view this situation in slightly less personal terms.
I would also advise you to not try and ask him for an explanation. What can he possibly tell you that would make you slap your forehead and go, “oh I get it. THAT’s why my friend stopped talking to me and showed up a week later with a floozy on his arms. Oh, that makes total sense. Good on him.” Please read his behavior, not his words, and be a little more ruthless about this.
As for what to do when you are around him, try not to be around him, but if you must, be friendly but completely nonchalant. No baleful looks, no tearful conversations. You are too busy and popular to give any brain space to the loser. Good luck, hon, believe me, a year from now this whole episode will barely register in your memory.
@Daisy
I am not setting ruels for anyone. It was just an innocent advice. and the guidelines for reading Quraan are not according to what I think, but according to many scholars.
I am free to say whatever I want, and you are free to reject it. Are we ok now?
Insisting on not saying the name of your scholars is very strange. you say you don’t want to throw him into this conflict. Well..if he is a true scholar, it’s his job to be in discussions and to defend what he stands for.
No body is forcing you to declare your name, and many people here have knick names, but at least their identites are clear, which makes me wonder….I _the Saudi woman_ who is always accused of being oppressed and hidden declare everything about me… This shows how the hijab hasn’t affected my clarity and my vision.
You say you are a humanitarian, but your hatred of Quraan and your unwillingness to be open to other perspectives shows the opposite.
Since you think that you are better than all Islamic scholars who spent years of study, there is nothing I can discuss with you. You are above everyone, so you get to decide on what’s right and what is wrong.
I am only concerned about you and the scholar who has washed your brain. You can’t even mention his name? How odd could this be? An undercover Islamic scholar? This is a first for me
Quraan is all positive and nothing is negative about and if you fail to see this, it’s due to your limited understanding as a human being who knows very littel compared to Allah’s knowledge and wisdom.
You say that all your stories are based on indepth research, but any indepth research tackles all interpretations and opinions equally and leaves the judgment for the researcher, which is something I haven’t seen from your discussion. you are opinionated to one side of the story only.
anyway, that’s the end of my argument with you and I won’t reply back in this post. Just remember that we need faith before reason and love before its justifications. When you have faith in something or someone, all the reasoning and logic in the world will come to you by default. Faith and love are broader than logic and reason becasue they allow us to see things in a clearer way. If I have read all the books about Islam, they won’t make of me a better Muslim if i don’t have faith in Allah and His religion.
Thanks.
@Daisy…
“Do read the books I suggested earlier. I think for a year or so this is enough reading material for you!”
You said it! I am sure that will keep me on my toes for awhile. But I just wanted to clarify something so I don’t come off looking like someone trying to stir trouble.
It is my nature to be very curious about lots of things. My parents taught me to question things in life and not always accept it at face value. They always told me to use my intellect and ask questions if something is unclear/contradictory/confusing. I use that approach for most things not just the study of Islam. And when one questions it isn’t to keep digging until you can find something negative…it is to clarify a point/position/idea.
The answer will be whatever it is… either negative or positive.
This trait used to drive my husband crazy! He never wanted a lot of attention drawn to himself and when we traveled there I would be at the front of the tour group riveted by the guide and ready with a question if need be while he hung at the back. Now he is used to it and I try to keep the questions to a minimum. Sort of our compromise for our marriage! LOL!!!
@Oby
I’m sorry if I have caused any confusion. What I was saying about Quraan is that there are many verses that are (mansookhat) which means they have been sent to the prophet for a specific reason at that time but it does not apply at other times. there are other verses that delete the practice of other verses , so when you read the interpretation of Quraan it is very important to know when was the verse sent (before or after a certain incident)..verses that were sent in Makkah are very different from ones that have been sent in Almadinah. Knowing these things make a lot of differences in understanding the Quraan.
In addition, understanding Islam does not happen only through reading Quraan. You have to rely on the Hadith and the Seerah. the four basic pillars that scholars base their understanding on are:
Quraan
Hadith and Seera
Qiyas (using reason to decide on a certain issue)
and Ijmaa’ (agreement of all or most scholars on a certain issue like Hijab for example…they all agree that Muslim women must wear Hijab – head and body cover, not for the face)
I’ll explain these later if you want.
Thanks
Nice, a post and comments which say everything I have said before. Now people can’t blame me alone anymore.
Culturewatch, The guy is a louse, He is a cowardly loser who doesn’t even have the basic guts to tell you he’s moved on to greener pastures.
He’s given up on getting you laid and has chosen an easier target.
Yes, men from other cultures act so too, but it’s just that the percentage seems to be so very much higher when it comes to middle eastern men, and especially Saudi men.
Typical that within a very short time bad male behaviour leads to a discussion on religion.
This is unfortunately nothing new. Rich Saudi guys are known for this sort of behavior however this post has gone from the discussion of elitist losers to an all out attack on Islam. As someone who lived in Saudi Arabia once its crystal clear that it’s a secular client state(created by the Brits) masquerading as an Islamic one.
Daisy in particular reflects this dishonesty with her evasions and false commentary. Rihanna?! LOL As to why she refuses to name her sources, its obvious that that end the discussion once her “scholar” is revealed. It’s clear she’s reading Robert Spencer and the droves of anti-Islamic propaganda found on the web. If you’re so afraid of naming your sources, you’ve got something to hide and shouldn’t be a part of the discussion.
Apparently honesty is not a part of her “humanitarian values.”
As an American, I struggle to find positive images and examples of Arab men. Up until a few years ago, while in university, my only exposure to Arab men came through media. Let’s face it, American media doesn’t tell many happy stories involving the Arab male.
I think the American women, and the general lack of exposure to Arab culture, presents a dilemma. I wasn’t looking for what many females are looking for. Although he was wealthy, I wasn’t looking to trap him in any sort of relationship to insure myself financial security.Neither did I possess the false hope of some exotic adventure to the East. I’m confident that my personality, intelligence, and faith will provide me those things in due time.
I met him, and fell rather hard for him, because he was a great person. Sadly, I also looked to him for assurance that not all Arab men are the same. I hoped that he would give me reason to keep believing what I truly want to, that there are “good” Arab men out there. Some American women, including myself, are looking to prove their society wrong, because they can’t quite bring themselves to accept the age old American protocol of simply staying away from “them”.
I’m apart of a new generation that wants more than anything to leave our parent’s fear behind and live lives that celebrate our ability to connect those outside of our bubble. We are trying everyday, not to be as our parents were. I went into that relationship with a sort of optimistic romanticism that I feel a lot Western women have (especially in their mid-twenties). I know my culture is wrong in many of it’s assertions about Arab culture, the Arab male, etc. I wanted very badly for this Saudi gentleman to prove that to me (once and for all).
Each of your comments have helped to understand this situation a bit more. I’m no longer going to take his actions toward me personal. As American Bedu pointed out, this could have happened for any number of reasons. As NN pointed out, the main issue here remains: He, for whatever reason, didn’t want to be with me. As Daisy, Radha and Lynn pointed out…I was saved from a potentially terrible predicament.
Hello Carol,
I’m happy that I came across your site because I feel like I’m going down the same road as Culturewatch (i’m so sorry honey… i know how you feel to be taken in by his charm, i’m falling for it too). If these are things to watch out for, please let me know.
We met 3 months ago and he initiated contact immediately with me. I was totally flattered! I thought I found the perfect gentlemen! But after reading this post, I’m not so sure anymore. I see now that some things are not so gentleman-like in his culture….
First, he introduced me to a couple of his friends. It was very casual. I thought something didn’t seem quite right- I guess it was the ease with which they accepted the situation. Then, he always keeps inviting me to his place, claiming that inviting people to come over to his place is a way of extending true friendship (or something of that sort). And this coming winter break he’s invited me to go with him to another state to visit his cousin (i’m an international student and am not sure where to go this winter break).
Do you believe he’s being friendly? Or am I just a way for him to show his cousins that he can “get a girl”? How does this fit into Saudi culture, inviting a girl you met 3 months ago to meet a relative? He’s also hinted that he would like to see things progress more intimately, which threw me off somewhat. But then again, he’s a guy…
Am I being paranoid or maybe too oblivious? I guess I was expecting him to be more conservative, with him being from Saudi and all but I don’t know anymore. Also, I’m Muslim but not practicing (although in the process of rediscovering my faith ^-^), if that makes a difference.
Appreciate your advice, thanks!
Oby,
You are right – asking questions and critical questions should be the backbone of any learning process. And you won’t get that in an orthodox Islamic environment.
Unimpressed,
I explained above, it’s not as if he is telling me everything and I am coming here and writing what he is telling me – it’s my research, based on the readings I do – I use his expertise in language and Islam to clearify the doubts I have. And in any case, I don’t see why anyone’s name matters – what I write here is what should be discussed, not whom I consulted for language and religion. Dishonesty shows in people who don’t want to discuss what is being written in a comment and ask unnecessary details which don’t matter.
I’ve been enjoying reading all the comments to this post.
@YellowLeaf,
Welcome to the blog and thank you for sharing your experience. As you have described his actions, I just keep seeing one red flag after another that he is not looking for a permanent relationship. I am sure he can be so charming and nice but his subtle nuances to become more intimate and invite you to go with him to meet another relative does not sound like someone who is sincere. I do wish you all the best.
YellowLeaf,
I think Carol is right, A Saudi woman won’t travel with an unrelated man to meet his relative elsewhere – even if the laws were relaxed – it’s not done in their culture. Obviously he thinks you are accessible. If he is serious about a committed relationship, his relatives and family should come and meet you where you are, not the other way round.
Moreover, it seems rather strange he should invite you to his place alone – when you both get close, it’s different, but if you are not yet so close with him, it appears not quite alright. There should be at least one more person invited along with you.
The way I have understood the Saudi culture, this is the way it appears to me, but there are others more familiar with Saudi culture who can give their opinion.
@Daisy,
Spare me the useless drivel and evasions please. I noticed you inject anti-Islamic propaganda in every post you can to hijack and poison any discussion even when it has nothing to do with Islam. Robert Spencer is NOT an expert(like you illiterate in Arabic) in islam but a racist charlatan who makes his living selling fear and paranoia. That goes double for Ali Sina. The reason you’re being so evasive is simply you have no foundation to base your tomfoolery on, and are afraid that once your “academic sources” are revealed you’d be laughed off the site. All I’ve seen is recycled orientalist tripe from you.
Theres a clear difference between an honest and robust researcher(unafraid to cite their sources) and a frivolous troll with a religous axe to grind. try fooling someone not well versed with lazy polemics and defective methodology.
@ YellowLeaf
If he has shown you nothing but good traits, you have every reason to believe he is a great person. He very well may be. I will say though, with honesty, that the situation seems a little suspect. Just be aware that men, especially at the collegiate level, aren’t what they at first seem. The older I get the more I understand. All people of all colors, religion, political affiliation-have the ability to deceive.
Sadly YellowLeaf, my Saudi prince charming won me with his great consideration. But I encourage you to do the most important thing of all: Stay True to You. If you wouldn’t do something with something else, don’t to it with him…meaning…if you’re a girl who doesn’t just “go to his place” shortly after you’ve met. Make no exception for this Saudi and any other guy.
It’s important to be honest with yourself. I saw it coming, but I was too busy waiting for him to prove me wrong. I’m happy that you seem to already be choosing to be face reality. I am very proud of you for using your head and seeking the opinions of wiser men and women (who have probably experienced a lot more, at this point, than we have).
@ Carol-
My Saudi prince wanted me to move in with him, after six months. When he asked me, rather than be elated, as most girls would be, I was quite offended. My response was a genuine one, “Would any Saudi family allow their daughter to move in with a man she just met at university? What would a Saudi family have to say?” He seemed irritated. “They’d say no,” he quipped. I explained to him that there were many many American families out there, who raise their daughters similarly to Saudis (in terms of protection, insistence upon careful female-male relationships, modesty, etc). No matter where you go, you’ll find those who don’t feel it appropriate to make such steps when marriage isn’t on the table or has been officiated. He’d never in his wildest dreams ask a single Saudi women to move into his home. NEVER. He’d worry of offending her, her family’s honor, his honor, Islam…the list goes on and on. So what made him think that it would be okay to ask an American? Do some Saudis really buy into this notion that we’re all a bunch of Samantha Jones’ (from SATC) looking to get laid at any cost? Do some Saudis really buy into this notion that we’re all a bunch of Charlotte Yorks (also from SATC) just looking for a relationship and the first invitation to move in?
I’m starting to realize that it is up to each American/ Westerner women to change the way we’re treated by Saudis and all men of other nationalities . Why do they think we’re all so darn easy? Because somewhere a long the line, a good number of American/Westerner women WERE easy. I know that YellowLeaf and I can’t save the world. However, I do believe that if we continue to stay true to self, stand up for what we believe in and uphold our values, we will have ey least shown the Saudis we know-that not all women met in America can be easily “taken”/conquered.
Just think…If all American women would be more careful who they let into their hearts…And equally important- their bed…If YellowLeaf and I, plus the thousands of other women with these experiences, taught ourselves and then our daughters how to stand for what we believe in and protect our hearts…Just think! We could change or at least shift the generally excepted idea that quick emotionless fun is so easily attainable in America. We have the power, as individuals, and as collective body, to make sure the next generations of Saudi university students and expats come here with an altered, and hopefully better, attitude and expectations of women here. I know it’s a long shot, but that’s my dream.
@ culturewatch…
Good for you! It sounds that you are solidly on the road to healing!
Hello Everyone
I thank everyone for these great posts. Your opinions and information are very helpful.
I started to date a Saudi student… so reading this post has brought a series of concerns to my mind.
My boyfriend…. Seems to be a decent, educated and great man (which again it means nothing… because you never know when it comes to Saudis)
However, I was very surprised when he introduced me as his girlfriend to all his Saudi’s friends and even shows me to one of his male family member from his home town through the internet.
I will appreciate anybody’s opinion or information about this situation. I have been dating him only for 2 months so at this point I feel I am still on time to take any decision.
Unimpressed,
1) I don’t read Robert Spencer on a regular basis. It seems that you do.
2) Discuss the contents of my comments with me like an intelligent human being, rather than name-calling and taking the discussion in unnecessary directions.
3) This is not anti-Islamic propaganda where it is not needed – I wrote all of this in the context of the comments related to the post and some of my comments were in response to others’ comments.
4) I have quoted from Quran and Hadith above and on other posts here – that matters, not from whom I got the translation.
5) I have already said twice above that Raihana’s marriage is conroversial and disputed – and I was really responding to Maha’s comment about non-Muslim wives of Muhammad. This was again in context of the topic whether non-Muslim women can get married to orthodox Muslim men and maintain a functional marriage – this is in context of this post. Please understand the meaning of my comments before beginning your name-calling campaign.
6) If Quran didn’t have conflicting verses, I wouldn’t be making this comment in the first place. I have shown the verses above. It’s not my fault if Quran has conflicting verses.
7) I emphasised this is not an exclusive feature of Islam, but it exists in all religions. I don’t know how I become anti-Islamic in the light of this remark.
Well, Now that I finished reading culturewatch and yellow leaf comments and I am starting to think twice about everything….
I feel I am going just through the same path… please, give me some advice and opinions….
@maria
Maybe I am not the best one to give advice here because I am a Saudi woman, but here goes…
This is my opinion as a Saudi woman who knows very well how the Saudi men think…
Given the facts that you’ve mentioned, I can say that he doesn’t have any respect for you…
and before I continue, I just want you to ask yourself; why am I in such a relationship?
If you’re expecting him to marry you, he won’t.
If you love him, then be sure that he doesn’t love you since he’s showing you to his male relatives….when a Saudi man is truly in love , he becomes very protective and possessive of his lover….when he’s really in love, he doesn’t brag about it!
You have to know something about his family… is it a Hijazi family or a Najdi family? that will make a huge difference..
Also, depending on how far you’ve gone in the relationship, you might know a lot…
Anyway…from what you’ve said, I think he is just using you for his pleasure…I am sorry for breaking such bad news to you…but it’s better for you to know this now before you become really attached to him…
Wish the best with a man who really understands and respects you
Maha
I’m going to have to go with Maha’ info on this one, Maria, in my experience, saudi men interested in you don’t really wander around introducing you to other males
as for the hometown relative, don’t be taken in by that, did he introduce you to his mom ?
2 months is hardly time to even form a strong friendship let alone a relationship.. either that or i’m hoplelessly outdated and old.
Anyway be careful, do what you feel is right and don’t do anything you’d be ashamed of telling your parents off . stay safe and be well
I agree with all the wise and heartfelt comments. I’d also like to point out this post:
http://americanbedu.com/2008/05/28/what-you-need-to-know-about-saudi-students-outside-the-kingdom/
which I consider a must read for any woman who is developing a friendship with a Saudi student outside of the Kingdom. The post lays out some of the regulations Saudi students face if they are studying and on a governmental scholarship.
Saudis are lovely people and can make great friends. My suggestion to the foreign women is try to also get to know the female Saudi students who are studying in your country as you can probably be great helps to one another on each others customs, cultures and traditions.
And it is funny…speaking of respect as Radha mentioned and sheltering a wife, when we were getting my visa for our relocation to Saudi, my husband would not even take me in to the embassy in DC because he worked there and did not want me exposed. He took care of all the details. It was cute (to me) because as we were planning to go to Saudi that was when he started becoming more traditional Saudi in some ways…but positive and protective ways.
@ culturewatch, maria & yellowleaf:
Recently, (for the newbies – I am saudi living in the usa), I started a relationship with a man from Qatar. I am telling you this so you know how a khaleeji man would treat a woman from a similar culture even though both are in the USA.
He works at the UN and comes from a good family. He is 14 years older than I am. We met at a cultural event. He knows my father, although not well. He will not allow me to ever send him a picture in case someone else sees it. He will NOT introduce me to his friends (only westerners). He is constantly worried about my safety in NYC, to the point where I am beginning to feel stifled. I am able through my connections to verify almost everything he says to me.
He will not let our conversation wander in a sexual direction, even though he is not overly religious. And has recently made noises about his family talking to my family. See the difference??
@Maria
There were times when I knew I should start pulling away. I’d talked to a friend and she’d warned me. I knew that everything she was saying sounded exactly like him. After our conversation, I felt I should start easing away, but I didn’t. I didn’t know as much as I know now. I really didn’t know that Saudi men usually don’t introduce you to their males friends when they really want and respect you. I didn’t have that sort of information. So long story short, use the information you’ve been given.This is a blessing. If it is what you’re worried it is, and what both Maha and Radha have told you it is, then you still have time to slip away. Do me a big favor, be really honest with yourself (which it seems you are starting to be). If none of the things YellowLeaf and myself were saying didn’t hit home, remind you of ways he is acting, and prompt you to doubt the legitimacy of your situation with him- YOU WOULDN’T BE WORRIED. Think about that. Best wishes.
@ Mariam
I definitely see a difference. And what a difference it is! Thanks.
@ AmericanBedu
Thanks for the background information post, which I have just read. I can’t tell how thankful I am to have a resource (like this blog) to help me understand all of this. You don’t know how many men and women you are helping.
Carol, Daisy, Mariam, Culturewatch, and others
Thank you all so very much for you input. I whole-heartedly appreciate that this blog is here and that I’m able to get real, honest answers. I guess I do need to shake myself and face reality. It’s just so darn hard when he uses his charm and the cute smile doesn’t help. But rather than be hurt and dissapointed in the long run, I should just stop now. Deep down I could feel that something wasn’t quite right and your posts have helped me to see this. I shouldn’t have chosen to ignore it in the first place.
Culturewatch, I think you and I are both emotional ladies. We both just gave them our trust, hoping they wouldn’t abuse it or be fake. Now we just need to focus on moving on, so good luck to us both.
But I don’t fully regret meeting him- I learned a lot about Saudi Arabia and the culture. And I still enjoy learning about the country and it’s customs! Very interesting place indeed.
@Yellowleaf – You have a great attitude. And you are right, Saudi Arabia and its customs and cultures are fascinating.
Dear Bloggers
Thank you ALL very much for all your advices and opinions…well, yes. Of course after reading all these stories… this is making me think twice about everything because I know you are all sincere women who has
been through the same path..
Please, could you explain to me what is a
Hijazi family and Najdi family?
Thank you all very much. You can’t even imagine how much this means for me.
@Maria,
These terms would tells us where the man comes from. They are regions of Saudi Arabia, with the Najd being more conservative and tribal and the Hijaz.
@ abu sinan
Thank you for your quick answer.
His family lives in Riyadh and I think that they are originally from the Al Quassim region (I am sorry I f I am spelling it incorrectly)
Then.. What would he be considered?
Once again thank you all very much!
Dear Maria and Culture watch, As soon as a saudi man introduces you to his male friends: you can be sure he does not respect you. He doesn’t truly love you. He doesn’t want a future with you. You can rest assured he wants something from you: nothing honourable.
I am very sorry for the both of you. But it looks as if you found out in time.
Culture in Middle eastern men is so very strong, it completely governs their lives. It is hard for western woman to truly grasp that fact.
My (saudi) husband read this and the first thing he said was: ”These women should get out of these relations immediately. These men do not respect them. If they show foto’s of a woman to their friends or male relatives it is only to boast. ”Look at my white hussy.”. Unless he has introduced you to his mother and sisters. If he has introduced you to men even if family: you can rest assured he has no respect for you. He had no honourable intentions with you. Whatever he would say to the contrary is a lie.”
My hubby is hijazi. A najdi man comes from the dark midieval misogynist backwaters of the deep desert and is a very bad marriage choice. (this is according to my hubby)
But he also tells me that the culture and traditions of the Hijaz gets eroded further every year by the Wahhabis from Riyad. The younger hijazi generation know very little of their own past and culture.
Hijaz means the area around Maccah and Jeddah. And the Eastern province. These places have always had contact with other cultures and people. Hence they are more open. They also had a much richer culture as the Nejd region. Which until oil came have always been very poor and very backward. But the ruling family is from the Nejd and so they now force their bedu rules and their wahhabi Islam onto the rest of Saudi Arabia. And as they have so much money they now also export it to the world by paying for mosques and sending Imams trained in Saudi there.
The bottom line is: If a Saudi man loves you: he will treat you as Mariam described. If he treats you as you told here, and many others have described: he is only using you for a time.
And as far as the title of this post asks:
Yes. It is acceptable. Women are at fault if a man does something wrong always.
Yes. A western non-muslim woman is a hussy anyway: free for the taking.
Yes, A non hijabi woman is asking for it.
Yes. As long as nobody who shouldn’t know about it doesn’t know about it: it is not a sin.
@ Maria, Totally Nejdi bedu! Qassim is a place where some women don’t even uncover their face through decades of marriage life to their husbands. A very closed and extremely repressive society.
Get out now!
@Maria
He would be Najdi. Qaseem is an ultra-conservative area. I’ve been there a few times, and my husband who didn’t require me to wear niqab in Riyadh, strongly advised me to wear it in Qaseem while visiting family. His neice, who was a college student in Unaizah a few years ago was waiting for my husband to pick her up after class. She was fully veiled not even her eyes were showing, yet a mutawa came to her and told her she needed to wear socks with her sandals.
@Carol
These posts really have shown me how lucky I am to have the Saudi husband I do. He is a decent and honorable man by any cultural standard.
I do need to note however that the people from Qaseem that I met were extremely hospitable. And, there is a Qaseemi family that has been living in a US town for medical reasons. Although they have their illnesses and hardships, they have become like the “Welcome Wagon” to other visitors from the M.E. I have never seen such incredible hospitality as I have from this family.
Also, A book by a Qasemi author titled, “Nabati Poetry The Oral Poetry of Arabia” by Saad Abdullah Sowayan taught me more about tribal life and traditions than any other book I’ve read.
Oh my Gosh!
This is worst that what I initially thought.
According to what I know his father is a writer so somehow that gave me the idea that he belongs to a more educated-open minded family. Also, he says that no one in his family have ever practiced polygamy.
Besides, he has a lot of relatives that are American citizens and live in the USA. So… this made me think his family was kind of modern.
In addition, I was also curious how come he was not marry ( he is 27) he says that his family is open minded and he has never expressed interest in being married so they have never suggested anything to him…..
But all this means nothing really.
Thank you all for helping me put through this.
I feel like talking to him and telling him about all this to see what his reaction is going to be but of course… what is he going to say?
I can hear him saying that he is an individual and he does not behave like an entire tribe and blab la bla but…
I was also thinking… I am sure from what I have read now…. That his family will not like his situation regarding to me at all… specially his mother….
Now, wouldn’t the fact of introducing me to one of his relative be a problem for him? What about is that relative talks about me to the rest of the family? Wouldn’t that be a problem for him at home?
But again, maybe guys over there cover each other….
I really feel like an idiot now… imagine….his best friend since he is a little child is his roommate here in the USA…. His roommate always tells me how much he likes me as a person and how much he likes me for his friend( my boyfriend) so we are always hanging out together…
But now, I am thinking maybe they are all covering each other
God bless you all… and God help us all!
Dear Kristine
where can I get that book?
Maria, if you do decide to calmly and plainly lay out everything you have learned, please report back here what his response to all of it is. I think you’re right-on as to your predictions, but nevertheless I would like to hear what he has to say.
@maria
“feel like talking to him and telling him about all this to see what his reaction is going to be but of course… what is he going to say?”
I think he’s going to tell you stop visiting that blog and stop listening to a bunch of old women!
Oe he might say” they’re just jealous of you because you have a guy like me…
I am really interested in knowing what’s gonna happen. Take care.
I’m going with the ” they are all jealous of you” statement .
you should deal with him as you would ny other friend.
be wary but no reason to cut short a friendship..
Ask him what his intentions are and don’t do anything you’d regret later.
no one knows what turn life takes, just be safe and have fun.
@maria,
Yes…the guys will cover for one another, that is pretty typical.
@maria… Please note that in my comment I have stated that I can verify everything he tells me through connections. This would not be possible for you to do.
We (saudi) do not have the same values when it comes to lying as an American would have. You know your concept of the “white lie”, one you use to spare feelings?? Well, in saudi culture, we have this concept to save face, get what we want and tell people what we think they want to hear. I swear to God, it is not with malicious intent, but it does NOT translate well between western and arab cultures.
I would assume he may be married or betrothed. The Qatari man i mentioned has a wife and 2 sons. He just hadn’t gotten around to “mentioning” them to me. He then claimed he and his wife are “virtually” separated. When I pointed out the age of his second child, indicating that the separation was of rather shorter duration than indicated, he shrugged his shoulders – as in “I’m a man, what do you expect?”
Please stay in touch through the blog and let us know you are ok.
@ Mariam
You expressed the “save face” value very well. I had a very difficult time with that because I could never tell if something was true or not. I’m glad you mentioned that it wasn’t done with malicious intent, because I just never could figure it out. You are correct, it does NOT translate well between the 2 cultures. Thanks, you taught me something new today!
@ Maria. Mariam is right. A lie is not a bad thing if it keeps somebody happy. This takes bizarre proportions from a western point of view. It goes so far that a European aquaintance was married to a Saudi for three years before she found out she was the SECOND wife. She was very clear from the start about her abhorrance for polygamy. She lived in Saudi, met the family. Met the kids from his ”previous” marriage. And after three years found out one of the reasons they hated her was because she was the second wife. Nobody told her the truth. And her husband didn’t feel bad about lying to her at all. After all she had been quite happy all this time?
And western women meeting Saudi men should also take into account that there is actually a fatwa on decieving foreign women by Bin Baz. He is the top Olama hailed by the Wahhabis as the new messiah. So a very highly regarded man!
http://www.islamway.com/?iw_s=Fatawa&iw_a=view&fatwa_id=18072
This is in Arabic. My husband translated it:
it says that mutaah marriage is not allowed
because muttah marriage is an agreement between a man and the woman he marries that teh marriage will end at a certain time
a bad thing since he let her know
but if a person had a Neeah (intent) in his heart and between him and allah
to marry the woman for a duration
say during his stay in the US for studies
and that he with intent in his heart married her to divorce her later when he is done
then that is permissible
so it is better than the Muttah marriage, because in Muttah u do not lie to her
he basically says since she is a woman who cares if u lied to her
This is also a nice reminder to western women what their place as women is in Saudi society.
There are lovely Arab men. My husband is one. But you want to be very careful and read Mariam’s recount. If he does not behave like she told here, you should hear warning bells!
Keep in mind that it may take many years for a Saudi student to get official permission to marry a foreigner, if at all.
And if he marries you without a huge party with his family, mother and sisters present, you are probably stuck in the kind of ”mutaah” ”misyaar” marriage the fatwa describes.
A muslim man can divorce simply by stating so three times. Even textmessaging has been approved.
Maria, You can get the book on Amazon.com
A lot of very wise comments and advice.
Dear Friends
Thank you all for your comments. I am going crazy thinking about everything. Sometimes when you don’t know too much you are happier but then the “surprise” is bigger.
well, I will let you all know for sure his answer to all this.
The thing is we have been dating only for 2 months and I do not want him to think that I am thinking at this point of marriage or anything like that because if I was dating anybody else from other culture, I will not be thinking about a future yet at this point.
Of course, when it comes to Saudis, I have to think about everything twice and future becomes a more eminent problem. but anyway… I will definitely talk about it with him and see what happens.
I hope he does not tell me anything about those jealous women or wherever… because … right now… I wish he was from any other country in the world…. everything will be much easier.
Once again, thank u all!. I really appreciate your advices!
@maria,
Much of his reaction would likely depend on how you approach and speak to him. If it is along the lines of learning more about the Saudi culture and customs I think he would either get defensive or he may say that what you have learned of the culture and customs in regards to protocol and etiquette with unrelated females is true but he might say he is different or his family is different…does he have sisters? maybe just asking him what he would think if someone wanted to date his sister?
I do wish you all the best.
Although things didn’t go as smoothly as I had wished, it was a good experience. I think that I learned a lot about myself in the process. Because of the outcome, I’ve learned even more about Saudi culture (thanks to everyone’s honesty here).
@Maria
Good luck! Just be prepared for the aftermath, which may or may not be what you expected. I’ve found this to be true with many males…the minute you let them know that you’re not stupid…as in…you’ve come to your senses and you know more than they want to tell you…the minute that happens, you’ll notice a change. If not at first, then expect to see the change in the days that follow. If you let him know that you’re aware of the way things go in his country…he’ll most likely lie and say the things that every women here has already warned you he will.
Do me a favor. Don’t let this get you too stressed. You sound like a smart girl, but just like me you needed a little bit more information to bring it all together. I’m sure you have other great people you can spend your time and have fun with. So don’t worry! Cling to your friends (more than likely they’ve been praying and waiting on your return)! When I find myself getting upset, I just remember…He isn’t the last man on earth. There are millions of them (men). I know there is one out there me AND for you. One that is truly meant for you, in every way. Patience and Faith is what we need most now.
Excellent advice and wise words Culturewatch!
Dear Culture Watch
Thank you for your lovely worlds. Yes, you are absolutely right.
Yes, I will try to approach him in a very friendly way but still asking him what I want…
I have to realize also.. that I met him the same day I met a lot of his friends . so many of them.. specially his closer friend… already met me and became my friend…..maybe he feels that if he already knows me, there is not reason for his friend not to talk to me or see me
Well, he knows I am not exactly the kind of girl that makes not questions or accepts everything. Actually, since we met…. That has been something he noticed about me… and he keeps telling me I am the smartest girl he has me and he can never win and argument with me.
He does says I have a lot of questions and things I would like to know specially about his country and Islam so… he told me that if I wanted… he will introduce me to the Imam of his mosque who is also a professor at a University.. then I could ask him about anything I wanted to know …..
I thought that was an interesting offer at the moment but now… uhmm not too sure….
@ American Bedu
Actually, he does have sisters and at the beginning of everything I asked him….. would you advice one of your sisters to date somebody like you, what would you tell one of them?
He said … his sisters are all adults and he will advice them to be smart and take responsible decisions… and he will advice them to live everyday at the time…..
Once again, I have no worlds to express my appreciation for your support….Thank God for this blog!
Maria,
Of course you have the first hand experience of him, while learning from others’ is always a wise thing to do. I just wanted to share this –
I have known quite a few Muslim women, in whose case, when they began interacting with a man on a close level, right in the second or third meeting the woman told him that she was not interested in a casual relationship and she could see him only if he was willing to get married. And if he was willing, he should bring his family members to meet her. Usually the man agreed if he was serious and they proceeded further only after it was decided that they were going to get married. On the other hand, if he was not serious and didn’t want to bring his family, the woman refused to see him further. It is considered to be quite normal to make it clear about one’s intentions about marriage – and perhaps also expected from a “good” woman in Islamic societies. And normally, the woman didn’t have sex with him before marriage – the chances of a break up are more in that case.
Of course you know best, but perhaps this is an indication of how Muslim women go about managing their relationship with a man.
at Daisy
Thank you very much for your story… yes… I have heard that’s the way they behave….
in my case I am not muslim….. but I can see the reasons why the act that way…..
@Maria
Everything people told you here about Saudi culture is probably excellent advice. I feel that the best thing you can do for yourself right now is to become completely unconcerned about his wants, wishes, thoughts and desires, and to pay more attention to what YOU want. If you don’t know what you want, take the time to find out.
Your goal in this relationship and indeed in any relationship should be to please yourself, not to fit into any preconceived boxes in man’s mind. There is no test that you need to pass. What do YOU want? Do you want to have a fling? A few months of dating? A fun semester? To get married? To find another friend? Be clear about what YOU want and then communicate this to the man (or men), and make getting what you want a condition of staying in the relationship. As in, “if I don’t get what I want, I’m out of here.” In slightly more diplomatic terms, obviously.
Two months of dating is nothing. Ain’t nobody calling me their damn girlfriend after only two months. Why should you cut off all the other man-options after only sixty days??? Some shoes take longer to break in! Madness!
You are in your twenties (I assume.) This is the time when hundreds of men will have the hots for you. There are so many men around! Please don’t make any one of them a center of your universe until they made you a center of theirs. Just have respect for yourself, for what you want and be completely selfish about that and less concerned about what people, and especially men, want from you. If your Saudi is serious about you, HE should be racking his brain about how to please his American dreamboat girl, and talking to YOUR culture experts about it and learning more about your culture.
If you feel like you MUST know things about Islam and his culture, don’t ask HIM. There’s lots of independently available information around. Why not take it from people who have no vested interest in getting into your pants?
Good luck, sweetie.
Hahaha Dear NN
I love your advice because you are completely right.
And Yes… I am 26 but I am not American, I am Hispanic
What I would want with any relationship is to get to know somebody hoping that can result in something positive but it does not necessarily have to happen like that all the time. Now, in this process, I want to be with a person that respects me and values me.. But THANK U for your worlds….
@ save the women.
You quoted above that “the wahhabis” hail shiekh Bin Baz as “the new messiah”.
Can you provide any details or evidence to support that for me please?
Thank you.
@Maryam,
I dont think they think bin Baz is the new messiah, I do think Salafis (Wahhabis) place far too much emphasis on scholars, with bin Baz being one of the best known and respected amoungst them.
@ Abu Sinan
Thank you for the clear up. I thought there was some information that I had missed out on some where.
@ Maria
Do me another favor. Follow your instinct. Your stomach starting turning when you read this blog…for a reason.
Let’s just review the facts (so you AND I don’t forget)…He’s here for a short while and is most likely looking to have fun (whatever that means). He will return to his country and become fully immersed once again…and guess what? You’re not going with him. He probably won’t give you a second thought. That’s the way it goes most of the time. We’ve heard from women who have great relationships with their Saudi husbands. But let’s not forget…these women had love and respect from the start. Those women didn’t have to try and decode this and that, like the two of us. There was no need to. The Saudi males they married treated them in ways that didn’t require them to cry themselves to sleep and stress. He isn’t one of those men. If he was, you wouldn’t be here.
I say all of this with the utmost love, concern and respect. I just don’t want you to make excuses for him or any guy in the future. I know you may feel guilty about initiating a seperation of sorts. You’re saying to yourself, ” Do I really need to do this? Afterall, I don’t know if he’s actually like that or not. He hasn’t done anything to indicate that he is really disrespectful…blah blah…If I say something he might get offended, tell his friends…blah blah…I wouldn’t be able to friends with him…blah blah.” Listen here, I’m one of the most optimistic people around. I use to think, when people told me exes are rarely friends, “Well why not? I don’t get it.” OK, well guess what? You don’t stay friends with the person who has hurt you or caused you unnecessary stress, because if you did you’d never grow. How can you move on and become stronger, if the source of your confusion and pain is still present. When you’re tired of worrying you’ll know. Cause that’s when you’ll get this over with.
Dear CultureWatch
Yes, I know what you mean… and don’t worry. i know you talk with the best of the intentions… and you are right… so far nothing has happened… I mean he could not be any better with me… and if I take any decision… I feel like he will ask me why am I acting that way if he has done nothing wrong to me….. I can see him asking me… tell me a moment when I have made you suffer or I have been bad to you.. or bla bla bla
but the thing is… it is true that I cannot point any action or fact so far but….. maybe it is better to avoid everything at once… before everything gets more complicated……
I am here in this blog not because I have experienced any specific negative behaviors from his part but since I am reading all these things… now.. I have to question myself about all his “good” things….
I mean.. after all, most relationships with Saudis have ended up badly….. why am I going to be the exception?
Can I ask everybody here to pleeeeeaaaase not talk about Bin Baz because he is dead?
the poor man was a total follower, and his (fatwas) were given to him as orders from above (not from Allah) surly.
Sometimes the questions were explained to him in the wrong way which resulted in his wrong “fatwa”…
I am not imposing any rule on any one..I just feel sorry for a man who was really good …I don’t consider him a knowledgable scholar, but I think that just because he was a good man, he deserves respect after his death..
the man was blind and never knew anything about modern or urban life…
I know I might be cursed if some wahabbis read this because they think he’s the best…
Thanks
@ Maha,
On a personal note to you, the reason why I asked the question was because I knew he had died. And yes I personally think he was a good man with good intensions ( may Allah grant him Jannah Ameen).
I was puzzled to read the statement and quiet shocked actually ( but I won’t mention my reasons here as it may cause people to go off subject even more).
But to you as well, thank you for clearing up the subject.
Another thing I don’t understand is why people are so intent on using the word “wahhabi” to decribe people of ahl- sunnah? Can anyone shed light on this for me because i do not think or believe that Shiekh Wahhab would think well of those who use his name to de fame Islam.
I hope you understand that i am just asking a general question here and not “attacking” or questioning you directly.
Anyone who wishes to clear this up for me, I would be greatful to read their response.
Thanks
@maryam
I understand that your question and others’ as well are asked with good intentions, but i just felt sorry for the man.
I agree with you about Sheikh Mohammad Abdul Wahhab; I don’t think he would be pleased by how people are using his name.
I’ll try to come back to you on how the Wahhabis originated; I have to consult my brother on this for he knows many details that I don’t know about this issue.
Thanks
A bit about the “Wahhabi” term. For me, as someone who knows a fair bit about Islam and the history of the Middle East, I dont see it as an accurate term. It is a pejorative term rather than anything accurate of descriptive.
Most people, described as “Wahhabi” by the West are just an extreme form of what is known as “Salafi” in the Muslim world.
Tariq Ramadan breaks down the Salafi movement into six different groups, some who complete reject the role of Islam in politics, others who are very politically oriented.
As to the real creator/spiritual head of the “Wahhabi” movement, ibn Taymiyyah would be MUCH more accurate than Abdul Wahhad, but as I have said before imagine a bunch of pseudo Muslim/Arab experts on CNN trying to talk about “ibn taymiyyaheen”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Taymiyyah
@Maha
Well, the Sheikh’s pleasure or displeasure regarding the use of his name is irrelevant. People don’t get to make opinions about their own legacy. That’s the job of others.
However, Abu Sinan’s analysis is sound and correct.
@ Maha, Abu Sinan and NN,
Thank you all for your comments and I whole heartedly agree esp with Abu Sinan “It is a pejorative term rather than anything accurate of descriptive”
Ibn Taymiyyah also came into my mind when thinking of the roots of WHY people have started to use that kind of term to describe people of Ahl Sunna. Since I classify my self as a learner, I would love more information (without detracting too much from American Bedu’s topic) so PLEASE, forward on any information any person may have or links that i might be able to go to to learn more on the origination of this term.
I mentioned in the post about the Major in Fort Hood that such terms do little to promote understanding or cohesion between muslims and people of other faiths and I would like to better understand HOW this has come about.
THANK you all once again.
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