Islam allows a man to have up to four wives. In Saudi Arabia it is not uncommon to know of Saudi men who have multiple wives. It is also not uncommon to know and become friends with women who may be first, second, third or fourth wives. Is there a distinction though among female circle of friends when knowing that the woman is in a polygamous relationship (whether voluntarily or involuntarily)?
I asked a friend who has lived in Saudi Arabia for more than 20 years and found her comments to be very enlightening.
“When one of our friend’s husbands took another wife, we all went ballistic here because we KNEW her. None of us would ever be friends or accept the second wives usually in those cases. But, for the other gals that are seconds, if we don’t know the first wife, it seems to be different. Why is that? For some reason, it doesn’t hurt us as much. I guess because we aren’t attached to the first wife and her kids, so it doesn’t pull the strings of our hearts as easily….and when you know and see the children and their reaction to the new one, it’s very tough. Perspective really is everything.”
I agree with her words that perspective can certainly make a big difference. Everyone will have their loyalties. But why in many cases is it the wife who is blamed when the Saudi husband chose to engage his “right” to polygamy? In the case of a first wife one may hear words of “it was an arranged marriage and now the husband finally found true love” from those who are supportive of or friends with the second wife. Whereas in the case of a second wife she could be referred to as an interloper or home wrecker who had given the husband the “evil eye” to lure him away from his first wife and family. However it does seem when a man goes beyond two wives at one time less is heard. Yet for those who are wanting to be supportive and true to the friend whose husband chose polygamy, it always seems it is the other wife who is “blamed” and not the husband. Is it because friends realize the woman still loves the husband or the woman believes she has no options but to accept polygamy? Therefore the friends feel again out of loyalty it is not appropriate to criticize a husband’s actions but okay to speak about a wife who is simply an unknown?
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Ooooh, great topic.
I was involved voluntarily in a polygamous marriage. I would not suggest it to the average westerner.
anthrogeek10
@Anthro – I noticed you used the term “was” rather than “am.” Do you care to share any more about your experience. What you learned or experienced that was positive, since we always hear so much negative.
Whereas in the case of a second wife she could be referred to as an interloper or home wrecker who had given the husband the “evil eye” to lure him away from his first wife and family.
Interesting point, there. I recommend reading this post(by a Saudi) and the comments following it: http://ravenzreflektionz.blogspot.com/2006/05/updatez-polygamy-inside-out.html
I’ve posted something on the post referred by HishMaj, I think the story in the link of HishMaj belongs to fantasy writing and support the case of women calling for their own rights and not as perceived by men, we’re clearly a one confused society…
I think that if men are allowed a secoind wife for love because the first one was only an arranged marriage, then the wives should be a second husband if the first husband was only an arranged marriage.
They have a point though, it is nature’s method of keeping people to marry family that offspring which is closely related, and shares the same chemicals, and smells, they are likely not to be attracted to each other.
Research has concluded that the more different people smell, the higher the attraction.
That’s why these arranged marriages between cousins have so little chance of becoming a really devoted, sexually attracted couple. We are not meant to marry cousins.
And if the couple is not related it is still a bad way about going on to couple people; the whole point of dating other people is to find out if you are compatible and attracted to each other.
If marriages are arranged for superficial reasons (race, family, money) then the chances of a truly inherintly succesfull marriage are very small.
(And with ”succesfull” I mean more than that they do not divorce.)
HisMaj, I read the link. A fictional piece written by a man. As was made clear in the introduction.
Actually more like a man’s rose colouredwet dream.
Ok, there is some fiction about in which women are happily married to a man with multiple wives. Unfortunately reality, as in real women, in real life, in a real situation of polygamy, seem to see the practise really very differently.
By the way, we had some real men commenting here who made it very clear they considered they had the right to upgrade to a newer younger model, if their first wives became too old.
Say 30+.
And yeah, we all believe they will love both first wife, and young upgrade equally and treat them equally,
Sure.
If we live in the rose coloured wet dreamworld described in the link.
To stay on topic: we know what the wives think: They think it *sucks*!!!
And let’s not forget: as much as men are allowed up to four wives in Islam, so the women are allowed not to want to be one of more wives. Which means that if the first wive does not want a second wife the man cannot have a second wife.
So the majority of these men who have multiple wives are not acting according to sunnah, not islamically correct.
Great topic, really wonder how life is there, and would like to visit KSA oneday.
However I do have a question about the airports,
say, as a female Tourist, if I go to Riyadh for a visit, do I already need to be well covered before landing? and in the airport, when I depart from the plane, do I get into a female only bus/exit into a female only waiting area for a taxi? How is the airport itself organized from inside?or the gender seperation start only once you step out the airport?? really appreciate if anyone can let me know…. many thanks !!
HishMaj,
Thank you for sharing the interesting link…it had me going at first thinking…’what on earth…’ then as I read on and understood the exercise it made more sense to me. I will say it is written well and leave it at that.
I personally would have a tough time with any of my friends taking 2nd wives let alone . If his wife is aclose friend of mine, I’d go all out and suggest she dump him
irrespective of if it’s permitted or not.
As for women choosing to be 2nd wives that too knowingly.. I feel bad for their low self esteem and ask them to open their eyes and really LOOk at the 2 timing husband. is that the kind of man you want to marry ( even for love)
Just my 2 cents
I think MOST normal women would not want to share their husbands. WHAT ever their religious opinion is.
The link is some fancy dream!!!
I will never respect a friend who goes for an already married man – in whatever religion, in addition to what Radha says goes for me as well.
@Jlll,
welcome the blog and thanks for your questions. Stay tuned..I will address them all directly in an upcoming post since your queries deserve a thoughtful response and not mixed in with another topic.
@radha, daisy, mezbah and all,
In your view, how easy do you think it is for the Saudi man to take another wife while already married to another? How far can the relationship go before a wife realizes something is amiss? And yes, this is based on the assumption that the woman he asks to marry is not aware he’s already married.
My view is whether I personally agree or disagree with the choices or situation a friend is in, if I am a true friend to her, I will remain her friend regardless if she is a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th wife.
Carol,
If the 2nd wife doesn’t know the man is married it’s not her fault in the beginning, but as soon as she gets to know – she should get a divorce. Saudi men may find it easy to have 2nd wife, but what happens when the 2nd wife gets to know? She should go for divorce if she is honest, respects family values and respects herself as an individual.
The man is having it easy and supported by law and religion, so I don’t expect the man to be so understanding.
@Daisy,
While a divorce may sound reasonable and straight-forward that may not be the case for many reasons. What if the couple have been married for a significant period of time? What if there are children by the time of discovery? Or what if the wife is Saudi? Staying in a marriage may seem the better alternative than risk loss of face or perceived shame on a family. Or if a wife is a foreigner and in Saudi she may not be able to easily attain a divorce.
And what about a first wife who also respects family values and herself as an individual? If her husband has taken another wife then have her values been compromised? Should she seek a divorce to continue to respect herself as an individual then?
These are the questions that come to my mind with your comments. I am not trying to infer that I am in favor of polygamy — I’m not! But I am attempting to see the view and perspectives from all sides.
I looked at the link by HishMaj too and besides it coming across as a total male fantasy, I wondered about the father in the story too. Would the father of a MIT educated daughter be falling over himself to give his daughter away as a 4th wife? I am not too familiar with Saudi culture, but wouldn’t the dad also have some pride? Taking a 4th wife is not that common probably, but even for a marriage proposal as a 2nd wife would an educated family or the family of a highly qualified daughter think it is a good match?
In my own limited sphere the only women I’ve known who have been either a third or fourth wife have been from Nej’d and have been wives of wealthy land or business owners. The wives may not have been well educated nor spoke English but accepting of their father’s arrangements.
I’m in the minority, but I would LOVE to be one of several wives. I have a lot of interests and hobbies, and am fiercely independent, so sharing a husband would ideally provide certain benefits without taking away my freedom.
I’m fairly sure I wouldn’t feel this way, though, if I was financially, socially and emotionally dependent on my husband and didn’t have the freedom of divorce. Plus, losing my child/ren in the event of divorce would be devastating.
In short, it wouldn’t work if I and my husband were Muslims.
I think the issue of polygamy is one of the reasons I just can’t ‘buy into’ Islam. When I consider the integrity of Mohammed and the efforts he put into treating his wives fairly and helping them with housework, I think ‘what an unusually fair and decent person’. To expect that *every* man could be as equitable is ridiculously optimistic and unrealistic. The vast majority of men and women are far too fallible.
Polygamy is not common in all Muslim societies, though. I have South Asian ethnicity and it is very, very rare to find an Indian Muslim man, for instance, with muptiple wives especially in the urban, middle class. In fact, for a well established family to be approached with a “second wife” alliance for a daughter would be considered beyond insulting.
I was wondering if there is a lower incidence of polygamy in urban, professional families in Saudi. I live in an Aramco style compound and haven’t met any second or third wives here, and if I did there would be no reason not be be friendly to them. But I’ve only been here for a short time. I’m curious as to logistically, how it would work. The company we’re at, for instance, provides housing, schooling and medical insurance for employees. For a polygamous household, do companies like Aramco provide houses and healthcare for all the wives and children? Or are some left out of the loop? If would seem impossible to make the “separate but equal” thing work under the circumstances.
The wives hate it, the children hate it. And sometimes, in very rare cases, the men realise it was a bad decision as well.
And it is never ”separate but equal”
Especially if the other wife has been aquired in India, they are often put in a nice house and only visited occasionally to be impregnated. Most of the family life he is at the first wife’s house.
It causes unimaginable hardship and pain for the wives and children.
The way it is in Saudi is that the men like to keep it secret. And because they are men everybody helps along. Families can keep silent for years to the second wife that she is a second wife. And everybody is so isolated, this also makes it easy.
western women have married Saudi men only to find out much later in Saudi that they were second wives.
It also has to do with the Saudi mindset: sinning isn’t really sinning if nobody knows about it. Tricking a woman into becoming a second wife doesn’t count as long as she doesn’t know about it.
And I think they also hope that when it is a faît accompli for a few years. They will resign in their fate when they eventually work it out. And if the woman has children then she is trapped.
In Saudi façade is the only thing what counts. That is why saving face is so increadibly important.
Very good points made by all, especially preservation of facades and face.
Californiadreamin,
On another post by Carol on polygamy, I tried to tell the commentors that Indian Muslims don’t practise polygamy eventhough they are allowed by law (the only men in India, where monogamy is otherwise the law) – but there were no takers for my argument. They preferred to hold on to their right to polygamy in Saudi Arabia. But of course there must be lots of Saudi men who have only one wife.
Carol,
The way I see it, if the first wife gets to know about the second wife, she should ask for divorce too.
But you are right that in a country like the Saudi Arabia, it may not always be possible for the woman (1st or 2nd wife) to get the divorce. But such a woman can always live separately and refuse to see her husband. I know it leads to loss of face in society, but it does require courage to stand up and say this is wrong – if we keep on fearing from society, no change can be brought about.
@carol – you ask too many questions
ok if i know my friend ( man) is thinking of taking a 2nd wife, i’d try to talk sense into him, I’d definelty inform his wife of his intentions.. I CANNOT let a women be decieved.
If A friend chose to be a 2nd wife willingly, I’d have that talk again, but if she continues, I will still be a friend, but i can see a barrier between us come up slowly.
If a friends husband took a 2nd wife and she came to know of it later, I’d throw my full support behind her . She’s an individual worthy of respect ,I’d say either accept it and be happy or dump him, I’d go with the 2nd option and i will gladly help her get up on your own 2 feet.
freindships should not come with strings attached, i understand that i should support their choices however my views on polygamy are very set
i’m too old to change and i have not YET seen a happy polygamous marriage. so till then, i’ll have to counsel my good friends to refrain from it. However if someone i’m not close to is in a polygamous marriage or chooses one for themselves, and all parties ( women) especially are happy – then “more power to them” .
Hi American bedu, I have followed your blog after stumbling on it about 6 months ago and have to admit I am addicted.
I am muslim, revert and have entered into a poligny marraige as a second wife and I must say “so far so good”. I do live in the west so I am not going to go into more detail than this.
What I would say though, is that if a man honors his wife/ wives, he works hard to make sure their needs are met, that there is honesty, openess and respect in the relationship and he fears Allah. From the time he understands his rights, the women understand their rights and as a whole, they have good intensions in making a complicated relationship work, it is plausible, workable and rewarding too. There has to be a balance and there are so many things that can go wrong if people cannot work together, if the man is not strong within himself to seperate each relationship from the other and is not just in his dealings with each wife, then conflict will arise.
All the best and thank you for the education you have provided me on saudi life . You have definatly lit a fire of wanting to learn more in me.
@Radha, Daisy,
I don’t mean to give ya’ll a hard time! (smile)
One of the most unusual situations I had found myself in one time was when I was living in Pakistan. I had a female (Pakistani) friend who was widowed. We would get together and have lunch as well as she and her daughters came to my home. In turn she invited me to her home. I was greeted by my friend, her two daughters and another woman not known to me who was holding a toddler. My friend referred to the woman as her sister and the toddler as her grandson. Thinking that there was a language difference I remarked that I was more familiar with the term nephew for a sister’s child instead of grandson. That was when my friend laughed and remarked “oh, she is my sister wife but since I’m much older her son is my grandson.” My friend was a first wife. She did not say anything about her feelings or the circumstances about her husband taking another wife. However she and her “sister wife” said that it made more sense for them to live together and support each other since their husband had passed away. That has been my one and only exposure with two women who had been married at the same time to the same man. They were relaxed and natural. I was the one feeling a little awkward when they shared their relationship!
@maryam,
Welcome and thank you for commenting. I know it is not easy for women who may be in a polygamous relationship to be willing to speak or comment openly.
I am always known for asking my questions and I am curious…are you and your husband of the same nationality or is your marriage also a bi-cultural relationship? And whether this impacted on your choice to accept a polygamous relationship?
Wow, I had no idea that it is common for a second wife in Saudi to not know she is a second wife. Isn’t there a basic vetting process in a marriage alliance? I would think the advocates for the bride’s side would ask a lot of questions. Aren’t marriage records public?
I have to reiterate that polygamy is not widespread in all Muslim societies. In India the incidence is around 5.7% overall according to Wikipedia, and very rare in the urban middle class. In some countries, where it is legal, the first wife has to consent in writing. In Malaysia, the man has to go to court to obtain permission. In Tunisia and Turkey, polygamy is illegal.
Thank you American bedu.
My husband and I are from the same racial background but born and decend from different countries and cultures.
What I find most amazing about him is his calm persona compared to my easily hysterical one ha ha ha. As it happens, he had heard about me for over a year before ever speaking to me, and worked really hard at studying the womens rights in a poligynous relationship before ever approaching me.
I my self had studied up on the subject since becoming muslim, asked many questions to different imams and scholars in my country and talked to all my freinds about their choices when it came to finding their husbands.
So when it came to accepting my husband, I feel I was well informed as to what I would be dealing with. My main concern was for my co wife. Did she genuinely agree to having a co wife, would she want to get to know me, how would it affect all the children etc. But my husband addressed all our concerns in a very diplomatic and balanced way.
He is the one who makes all the effort to make sure we are all well taken care of, works hard to provide for two house holds (my co wife and I do not work to provide for the house at all but do earn our own money for our own uses) and he is the one who is constantly tired from all the running around he has to do not us.
Saying all that, as his wives, we are very independant, flexible in our times spent with him and able to get on with things without him being around.
So like I said, if the family is a balanced unit, then a plural marriage can and does work. We are all reverts, they have been together for a very long time and are solid.
A woman has to be very strong also within herself, assured in her self worth and practical about life to understand the benifits of “sharing” a husband.
For those closed minded to the subject, it’s hard to understand but lets put it like this, those same people tend to be appalled to fing their friend’s husband has been cheating for years and keeping a woman on the side, had illegitimate children and neglects his duties as a husband, father and head of the house. It’s a no win situation. Would they rather have all the sneaking around and lies or an open, honest, legitimate and honroable relationship for their friend?
In Islam, a woman has the choice to free (divorce) herself from her husband if she does not want to be in a plural marriage. So FIND OUT YOUR RIGHTS IN ISLAM BEFORE MAKING LIFE CHANGING CHOICES.
Sorry for the long lecture.
Here we go again, the comparison with a cheating husband wit a girlfriend.
Yes a cheating husband is a louse.
And a man who secretly takes a second wife is exactely the same louse.
Only a man who can find two women without much selfrespect and/or brainwashed into thinking Allah demands them to be co-wives (happens with a lot of ”reverts”) is slightly less of a louse.
He is still a louse though, because any real man would not wish this on a woman.
A real man would be clever enough to choose the right woman, a real man would be strong enough and have personality enough to remain faithful to one woman.
Carol,
Your narration of the Pakistani women is really a sad one. You are right that in such a case you came to know about it much later than the marriage happened and the husband was dead by this time. In this special case anyone would empathise with both the women, since one was old and the other younger with a small child, left behind by the deceased husband. I would continue to maintain my friendship with the older woman in this case, since she was the one who was your friend.
But still the question remains about why the man had to marry for the second time a younger woman and why she and/or her family had to agree for such a marriage. If only this practice didn’t exist, at least the younger woman wouldn’t have suffered. I do feel she shouldn’t have married him and the first wife should have objected before or after the marriage whenever she came to know about it.
I don’t know about the divorce laws in Pakistan – the communication barrier between the two countries has left people on both sides ignorant of each other. But even if she couldn’t get a divorce, she could at least object to the marriage and live separately.
About Maryam’s case above –
When people like Radha and I speak against polygyny, we are not speaking against the actual marriage ceremony and sheltering the clandestine extra-marital relationships instead. What we are saying is that both the man and the woman should be faithful to each other and there shouldn’t be either clandestine extra-marital relationships or a three-partners marriage. That’s what monogamy means in its truest sense.
Radha, I have taken the liberty to include your name for above comment (not for the comment below) – I hope you agree.
In fact, if people begin to interpret these laws in this manner, it can become a very convenient way to validate one’s clandestine extra-marital relationships. If a Muslim man has an affair outside marriage, and manages to talk the woman into converting to Islam, he can just get the marriage papers signed by her to justify his extra-marital affair. And if he can do it once, he can do it again – he is allowed four wives. He can also divorce a few of them and get more – this is nothing but validating one’s extra-marital affairs by citing scriptures.
Just to clarify – I am NOT talking about Maryam’s case specifically, but hypothetically, this can happen.
I don’t want to go into how one should deal with an outdated practice sanctioned by any religion or law and whether it shouldn’t be banned despite its sanction – I have already said all that before and won’t go into it again.
Once one begins on the topic of polygamy it can lead to the proverbial can of worms. There are usually strong views. I think each case needs to be viewed and understood individually as far as the reasons, circumstances and mindsets of the individuals. It does make one wonder given the increased incidents in Pakistan and Afghanistan whether that would make polygamy rise in those countries? Or the same with the conflict going on at the border between Saudi and Yemen with casualties. However for whatever reasons, in my view it seems that it does continue to happen more than one might expect in Saudi.
I don’t suppose there is a male who could give a perspective on how he deals with multiple families to include in-laws? My observation is that with Saudi being such a man’s world and with the heavy cloak of privacy which covers each family perhaps few may know or not feel it is their business to say anything – pro or con.
Ok, I knew by elaborating slightly that I would get what I see as “brain washed” “out dated” “selfish man” etc kind of comments and each to their own. Thats what dialogue is about. Everyone has an oppinion.
But as I have stressed, do research, understand your rights and make an informed choice.
Now I do not intend to valdidate or make excuses for a marriage that I am a) happy to be in, b) entered into of my own free will, c) understand that not many people will agree with and d) do not care about those that do not agree with it since they do not feed, clothe or sustain me in any manner.
The analogy i made about cheating men is a real one that blights society. There were not many laws that catered for children born outside of wedlock until recent years. Different countries deal with it in their own ways but it’s still a social stigma that is real and can bring sadness and humiliation to not just the woman and child involved.
I am also not trying to paint a picture of a rosey marriage either. All I’m saying in light of the article made by American Bedu, that plural marriages can and do work IF all persons involved are making an informed choice, know what options they have if things were to go wrong, there is honesty and openess about how the second/ third or fourth marriage is entered into.
I have not made my comments to try and validate anything.
I do not feel the need to justify my own relationship. There are unfortunatly many who enter plural marriages under pressure, false information and deciet. I hoped that my previous comment would give a small example to how a person should go about making such a life changing choice. I would like to refer everyone to the last three lines of my previous statement. A WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO DIVORCE IF SHE IS NOT HAPPY, BEEN LIED TO OR MADE TO ENTER A RELATIONSHIP UNDER FALSE INFORMATION. GET TO KNOW YOUR RIGHTS BEFORE ENTERING INTO SOMETHING THAT WILL AFFECT YOUR WHOLE LIFE.
Apart from that, I responded to the article just to tell American Bedu that I admire her work as I do learn a lot from them.
Thanks
Sorry, i forgot to mention @ Aafke, all the secrecy and deciet is something we both agree upon. It’s not right.
I hoped I had stressed that point clearly.
That is a selfish thing for a person to do but those who chose to enter into a plural relationship are consenting adults so should have the sense about them to “look before they leap” no?
@Maryam – Again, thanks for coming forward!
@maryam,
I’m not knowcking your choices, they are yours. Just curious if the 1st wife was ok with it or coerced since she was not working and had no independant income or she was the one actively finding a wife for her husband.
My husbands good friend choose polygamy and the 2nd wife knew it and accepted, however his 1st wasn’t toohung up on the idea . so after a few cries at my place i got a bit tired and set her up with a good divorce lawyer, and had her stay with me . she’s quite happy away from him now. ofcourse my spouse was quite horified that i would get involved, but hey it’s what it is. He meets his friend outside ,god alone knows what explanation he gives. but the point being, the 1st wife knew but was helpless, she even put a nice face for the world, i had to interfere after hearing her heartbreaking cries at my place.
But i’m glad you are happy, like i said i know it works for some . everyone is different in their needs and requirements.
Polygamy is such a can of worms and you are right that it is hard to understand. I personally am in favor of making it legal for consenting adults because I don’t think it’s my business to tell others how to structure their families, as long as this does not result in an increased tax burden for me. But then I support gay marriage and others types of nonstandard marriage on libertarian grounds.
Let me address also a tired debate of second wife vs. mistress. I am married. And if I had to choose, I would ABSOLUTELY prefer for my husband to have a mistress rather than a second wife. This is such a no-brainer. The wife has all the rights and status, the mistress has none. Wife is secure, long-term and legitimate. Mistresses are often changed and kept for convenience purposes only. Mistresses have no financial claims on their lover. Wives own half of all marital assets regardless of their contribution. So yes, you see, for a wife to deal with a mistress is a lot easier than with another wife, because the wife deals from a position of strength with both the mistress and the husband. “But don’t you want for your sister what you want for you?” To these people, I say, my dear, I have only one blood sister and she’s married to her own husband. Anyone else calling me sister, bring a DNA test first.
@ Radha, thank you for your question, I honestly do understand how your friend must have felt and that was one of my own concerns when I was considering my marriage.
I would not be able to live with my self if I felt I had “intruded” upon someone else’s relationship in anyway so was very firm in finding out how my co wife felt about the whole situation, what her views were and how she felt or wanted the whole arrangement to work.
She is a hard working woman in her own rights and runs her own business as well as looking after her children.
What I said was that we both work to earn our own money but NOT to support our own living arrangements. That’s the job of our husband. So there was no financial pressure for her to accept our husband having a second wife.
It should be understood also that as part of our religion, a man cannot have more than one wife if he cannot provide for both on equal terms ie house, money, food, education, children’s welfare etc. So the pressure always lies with the man mostly.
As for being coersed,NO, she was not. She had known for a number of years that he wanted to participate in a plural marriage and she even set out certain conditions before she agreed to it.
From what I know, (I don’t want to be talking about her too much without her consent), her terms were met and she agreed for him to look for a wife.
Oh I’m the “older wife” rather than the new “younger bit on the side” lol so it’s not always about a man looking for a younger or fresher model because the old wife is getting on in years.
There were so many things to take into consideration on all sides so people should be very careful about getting into plural relationships.
The main thing to consider is how close the two women are to each other. For example, if they live in the same neighborhood, share mutual friends, have support outside of family environment , their emotional welfare etc.
These things can influence greatly how a plural relationship works.
Sometimes it’s better not to try to be best friends with your co wife, seperate completly in terms of association with each other, have seperate lives and friends so you do not feel like an imposter and can lessen the chances of people stirring trouble between the two women especially that of jealousy.
The only person who should be doing all the worrying is the husband. It’s his job to maintain his homes emotionally, financially and physically.
It’s nice to know you supported your friend in her time of need too. That kind of support is priceless so keep being a good friend.
Thanks for asking. I appreciate it.
Hello everyone!
I think its great to hear that plural marriages can work, thanks maryam for sharing your story.
I dont think its for everyone though( majority of women including me)
I’m engaged to a saudi myself, and we’ve discussed the issue of polygamy. He says he doesnt want it for himself because he has seen only bad come out of it, plus he wouldnt want another wife anyway. I intend to put in our marriage contract that if he chooses to take another wife, he will grant me a fair divorce, and I get custody of children. He agreed to it.
In any case, polygamy is rare in his family he told me, except for his father..
His fathers first marriage was arranged, he didnt even meet the wife until the wedding. In any case the marriage turned out to be very good, they love each other and have 9 kids.
But apparently a couple of years ago he had taken another wife, without telling his wife or family.The other marriage was not a normal islamic one, but the kind that the woman agrees to stay in her own house, and agrees not to be supported financially. (to me this sounds like legal prostitution). from this marriage he had two children, the other wife started to demand more money, and then he got a divorce. At this stage the first wife found out.
I felt really appalled by the way he had done it, I’ve met him and he seems so nice and kind, he is highly educated. I dont understand why he went and ruined his first families life.
Now the mother is so bitter about this, that she will not give her consent and blessings for us to get married. She says my fiancee is just like his father, selfish, doing things behind her back and doesnt think of her!because she didnt choose her eldest sons wife, she wont accept it.
I think she is projecting her hate and bitterness toward her husband to her son now, and we are the ones suffering.
Divorce wont come into consideration, it would be too much of a scandal in this well known family.
The worst thing is, the father wants those two children to come live with them. I cant imagine how much it would hurt to be reminded of your husbands disloyalty everyday, and what it will do to those poor kids.
It would be really interesting to hear what goes on in a mans mind when he decides to risk his familys happiness and ruin their lives like this?
@Laurea,
Thanks for sharing your view and Congratulations on your engagement.
By what you described, it sounds like your fiance’s dad had a misyar marriage which is recognized in Saudi and where the husband is not expected to provide or house a wife. And the father would be within his rights to have the children living with him.
While you mention that your fiance agreed within a future marriage contract to stipulate in the event he takes another wife you could receive a fair divorce and custody of children just remember that if you would be in Saudi Arabia then Shariah law and Saudi courts prevail.
While it is understandable his mother is upset I would not place 100 per cent of her resistance on the current situation. It remains very common for a mother to have a significant say in choosing and/or approving of a future wife for her son (and husband for any daughters). While she cannot force him (your fiance) never underestimate the intense pressure that could be placed upon him and without her approval it can make life difficult for you if you are to all live in the Kingdom. I am not saying this as a discouragement but in the context ‘forewarned is fore-armed.’
If you are interested in previous posts I have written about misyar/misyaar marriage, please view the following link:
http://americanbedu.com/2009/05/23/marriage-to-a-saudi-can-be-confusing/
Best Regards, Bedu
@Laurea,
Be sure you understand this: In the US and most of the Western countries, you cannot, repeat, can NOT put anything related to custody of children in case of divorce into your prenuptial agreement. The reason for this is that when deciding on custody, the courts and judges here look for “welfare of the child” as a determining factor. What you have in your prenuptial agreement is irrelevant to them. In the US you can use your prenuptial only to regulate property and finance. Not chidren.
If you are in Saudi, then I suggest you talk to the Shariah-versed attorney.
oy gevalt… Laura, without your mother-in-law’s approval, your life in ksa will be hell. I have no idea if you are planning to live in ksa, but please think twice about it. I also second NN…you will NOT have custody of your children if you are all in ksa. The children will be considered saudi.
i know i will not sleep tonight after reading this.
@ Laurea,
Hi and hope your well. Can I suggest that you follow the link American Bedu has put up and also to do A LOT of research into the laws of the country you wish to live in.
If you are muslim or hope to live in a multi faith marriage, (A woman does not need to change her religion to be married to a muslim man as long as she believes in ONE God and practices her faith), then it is also important that you study up on sharia laws, hadiths and verses of the Qur’an that talks about marriage.
Also there are many books out there that are written by western muslims (women) who married into families where the parents especially mothers have high influence as to their children’s spouses so it is worth reading up on the subject too. May I recommend “The Muslim Marriage Guide” By Ruqayya Waris Maqsood, a British lady who married into a Pakistani Muslim family.
As humans, we cannot predict what happens in the next few seconds let alone the next few days, weeks, months and years so it is good to be sure of your tolerance level ( when it comes to dealing with your future mother in law), being very straight forward in your speech (telling your fiance what you expect from him) and being firm within your self with what ever path you choose.
All the best of luck and prayer is a good tool in keeping oneself grounded. Talk to as many people as you feel comfortable with to find out different views but make the final choice your own.
Wish you all the best in your future.
Maryam, polygamy is only allowed conditionally in Islam. It is not a ”right” that men can arbitrarily add wives to their menagery. If you read the relevant passeges in the quran, and take into account that that sura was revealed after the battle of Uhud when a large number of muslim men got killed, you will see that it is meant as a kind of social security for widows and orphans. And as an alternative for men who are such losers that they cannot bring themselves to be charitable enough to look after widows and children without getting sex in return.
And then still only if they can treat both wives absotlutely equal. Which is impossible.
So you can argue that polygamy isn’t really allowed.
And the prophet was careful enough to make sure his daughter Fatimah did not have to endure it.
So you can argue that it is sunnah not be in a polygamous marriage.
Laurea, his father is polygamous? and you think you will not be ”upgraded” in 10 years?
A clause in your marriage contract that he will not marry other women is absolutely worthless in Saudi Arabia. As a woman you will have absolutely no rights, whatever your contract may say, the judges will always rule in favour of the man. Even if you show up with a bunch of broken bones and a blackened face and he drunk and stoned, he will still get the children. If he doesn’t agree to a divorce you will get one at all anyway.
And you will only get a divorce if you have enough money to bribe a judge. you will still not get to keep your children.
You will be kicked out of the country as a foreigner without a sponsor and you will never see your children again.
If the mother doesn’t like you your life will be hell. It is a wellknown fact that Saudi men change 180” as soon as the plane lands on Saudi soil. Many women tell how their husbands changed into complete strangers, even after ten years of marriage. You will be spending much less time with your husband as he will be in a segregated social life with men. and you will be alone.
He will bow to the will of his family in all occasions. A wife comes at the very last place in the mind of a Saudi.
If the mother doesn’t like you the whole family will put pressure on him to take a Saudi wife (if he hasn’t allready has one, you will by no means be the first foreign wife who will found out after landing in KSA that she is actually # 2)
Saudi men are absolutely spineless when it comes to family pressure, and as you will never rank as high as a family member for him you will be helpless. Saudi men are consumate liars when it comes to previous marriages or future plans for such.
The only way you will ever have any safety is if you never, ever go to KSA with him.
And don’t be fooled: polygamous marriages don’t work. The new Maryam has only just started and has no idea what she’s getting into. Besides (sorry Maryam, I’m being blunt here) she seems to me to be a typical ”convert” who has been indoctrinated with the erroneous view that men have full rights to marry up to four women, and moreover, that if she wants to be a good muslima she will not only have to accept that, but to rejoice in it.
That is always a popular pretext: ”The first marriage was arranged” WTF? If they don’t like an arranged marriage they shouldn’t have agreed. That is easier for a man to do as for a woman. But Saudi men are totally spineless when it comes to family pressure. However, when it comes to your wishes and happiness you will find he can stand up to you fine. But then you aren’t family.
How equal do you suppose he will treat both wives if the first marriage was only an arranged one?
So you see in the case of the father of your intended how well Saudi men can hide a second marriage. That was a misyaar marriage btw, which is nothing but prostitution. So this nice friendly educated man has been cheating on his wife with a ”halal” prostitute for years.
And all in the halal way. for the scholars have devised this kind of prostitution as ”marriage” so he doesn’t have to feel bad about himself. Everything about life in Saudi Arabia is geared towards the advantage of men.
Forget about studying Muslim books about marriage. It will all come to nothing in KSA. Women in KSA are literally slaves (according to Saudi women).
You have no rights at all.
Do you understand what that means? You cannot get medical care without a man’s consent. You cannot go out of the house without consent. You cannot travel witout a man’s consent. You can not make any decisions about your children for they are not your children, they are his property as much as you are his property. A wife is never part of ”the family” A wife is supposed to be part of her own family. You do not belong to them, you do not have Saudi family to protect you and if the mother hates you you will live in hell with no escape.
If your husband is one of the 1% of Saudi men who do have a spine you might be slightly better off. But if in that case something happens to you the ownership of your children will go to his family, and you will become the ”underage ward’ of one of the male familymembers. Who can tell you what to do, how to live, where to live, how to dress. etc.
If your fiancée loves you truly he will never want you to come to KSA because he knows very well what the situation will be for you.
If your fiancée does not stay with you in a civilised country he does not love you and he will not look after you in Saudi Arabia.
Aafke, Let me be blunt. YOU DO NOT KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME other than a few sentences I have written.
To prejudge a person in the way you do is so wrong.
What I believe in or what you percieve of me are not for me to try and correct or make excuses for.
I have not stated anything that brings light to how long I’ve been muslim for, how long I’ve been married or that I have been “indoctrinated” into anything for you to make such statements directed at me. Unless you know anything about me as a person that you have physically seen, lived with and known for a period of time, please do not try to tarnish me as someone who is so stupid as to follow anything and everything I see, hear or read.
What you may term as “a typical convert” may not be me as a person.
What you choose to interprite from any comment I make is up to you but DO NOT use that to judge me as a whole person.
Everything I have put has been an oppinion and I am entitled to that as much as you are.
Also no where in my statements have I said that poligyny is a mans right in Islam.
I have said “find out your rights in Islam before making life changing choices”, “women have the right to divorce if they are not happy, find out they have been lied to or are made to enter into a relationship under false information”.
I have stated that a man should know his rights and so should a woman but I did not specifically say that poligny is a right upon the man.
Futhermore, there are many rights afforded to both men and women so self education is important.
Let me make this clear, I am not nor am I trying to portray my relationship as a brilliant example of how poligyny works.
But don’t use me as an example of some foolish person who has been coersed into anything. I chose Islam as a religion of my own free will, married of my own free will and I live freely so don’t act like you know me.
Not once have I tried to come over as aggressive (until now) or “right” in my statements nor do I wish to influence anyone into doing something that could damage them.
I have at the very most just tried to put another side to the discussion, answer questions that have been directed to me and every person is entitled to view it as they wish but I AM NOT your scape goat.
Most people like to go on the negative of every story and easily forget the positive.
Sometimes until you experience something first hand, you can only go on presumptions and stories to conclude if that thing is good or not.
I am experiencing something first hand and I am lucky enough to say that MY experience has benefitted ME.
Just because others have not, does not mean that I am wrong to say what I have said.
Thank you.
It is true that Quran allowed a man to marry more than one woman only in the context of the Battle of Uhud, when there were many widows and orphaned girls left as their legal guardians had died in the battle. It’s not a general privilege Islam bestows on the Muslim men. The Muslim men have misused those verses to their own advantage wrongly.
Those who are interested, please also read the verse IV/129 from Quran, which categorically says that men will not be able to do justice to their multiple wives equally, even if they wish it. The implication is clear – the Muslim men are not supposed to take more than one wife.
I have heard the argument about consenting adults more than once ie, if all three consent there is nothing wrong with it. To see how rational this argument is, we only have to reverse the situation – how about a woman taking more than one husband at will and suppose two or three of her husbands consent to have only her as a single wife, not go to any other woman, to live “modestly” according to her wishes and be conscious of whatever rights the threesome or foursome have in this marriage? And how about the woman divorcing one of them at will whenever she likes and getting another “consenting” man at will? Does it sound fair enough? Are the men of the world willing to go for this kind of marriage?
I haven’t quite understood, what kind of “rights’ does a woman have if her husband is sharing his bed with other “consenting” women at regular intervals and if she also “consents” to this? And if this is fair enough, why shouldn’t a woman have three husbands and share bed with them at regular intervals?
Are there any men willing for this kind of marital arrangement? If not, why should the woman do it? Where is the concept of equality here?
Even in ancient and mediaeval times, women were conditioned to accept polygamy and a lot of them were in fact “consenting” about it because they were culturally conditioned to do so – but it is obvious this system treats women as objects to be enjoyed – it does not matter whether a woman is earning money or not.
And if a woman is earning money and still allows herself to be treated as an object to be enjoyed and justifies it too, then there is something seriously wrong somewhere.
Daisy, I’m being a devil’s advocate there. As long as participants of this arrangement agree to a plural marriage, your and mine approval really isn’t necessary. They are not out there pronouncing judgment on our marriages, are they?
As for your argument about marriages with multiple husbands, why yes, if these folks agree to share a woman, who am I to judge? And if they don’t consent, the whole issue is kind of academic.
People organize their lives in all kinds of ways. If you really saw the inner fabric of marriages of people around you, you may be surprised! People do things for all kinds of reasons. You have to allow people some room to make their own decisions.
Again, please don’t take me wrong. I am not saing polygamy is right or good or any of these things. I just do not presume that because I disapprove, I can tell someone who says they chose it on their own free will, “oh no, you didn’t, you couldn’t possibly!!!” Live and let live, that’s what I say.
Maryam, I don’t make any assumptions. You have told us yourself that you are:
A- living in ”The West”
B- a ”revert”
C- are guided by imans and scholars
As far as ”reading and studying for yourself” goes, I suppose you have been reading many books and pamphlets by Salafi/wahhabi scholars but less directly from the Quran or you would have noticed that polygamy is allowed conditionally only and that the men who do not have the mental greatness to look after widows and orphans withour repayment in sex can never be the best muslims. And not to forget that while the injunction to treat each wife perfectely equal stands, there is also the comment that no man is capable of doing so. Therefore men are NOT allowed more than one wife according to the Quran. QED
So let’s see. where did I go wrong? I knew you were living in the ”west”. You describe yourself as a ”revert” a choice of words commonly used by western Wahhabi/salafi trained new muslims. The margin of error is pretty small there.
The fact that you have been trained to believe it is a good thing for a muslima to be a co-wife, (no real Arab woman, or native muslima, although maybe trapped in being a co-wife, considers that a good position to be in) points towards a Salafi training. And we know Saudi Arabia is paying big time to get their version of corrupted Islam spread all over the world.
The whole family unit is ”revert” according to you so according to me all equally brainwashed. (my opinion based on your comments here)
And then your reasoning and your comments about bad western man having ”mistresses” are só increadibly typical! If you really have spend six months reading this blog then you must have noticed all salafi/wahhabi-supporters keep repeating that ”argument” ad infinitum!
And then you are subtily encouraging a clueless western girl who might still have the chance to escape that it isn’t so bad being a co-wife. And worse, possibly a foreign co-wife in Saudi Arabia! Bit of salafi dawa I suppose.
The ”benefits” of sharing a husband???? Nobody but a ”revert” comes up with these arguments.
How about the benefits of your husband sharing you with a couple of other husbands? That way he won’t get the nagging once you start feeling neglected
So really I am not prejudiced, I only respond to the information which you have given.
As far as I am prejudiced; I think any woman who extolls polygamy and advertises it as a good idea is a traitor to all women on the planet. But I haven’t said that until now.
I also think that you must be brainwashed before you do so. But that is also my opinion only. I am not saying you are. It’s what I think you must be.
What I am saying is that I do not think you have fully studied Islam, because your notions of Islam reflect a certain Saudi strain of Islam. A very thwarted version of Islam.
To me, and I have studied Islam as well but straight from the Quran, not from scholars, it seems that your studies have been guided and are one-sided and wrong.
Sorry. That’s what your comments make me think.
Actually, as nobody has ever seen truly happy and equal polygamous marriages in real life, I wonder if you are real.
On the internet anybody can make up a persona and we have seen fake ones before.
It is quite possible that you are a man trying to make us stupid females recant our jibbing at being only a half-wife in an unequal marriage.
This story about two women being only too happy to share one man, not feeling unhappy at all when they know he is shagging the other woman, and moreover making their own money thereby making his household contribution fairly minimal, sounds more like another man’s wet dream like we’ve seen in the link from His Maj.
“@Anthro – I noticed you used the term “was” rather than “am.” Do you care to share any more about your experience. What you learned or experienced that was positive, since we always hear so much negative.”
Sorry for the late response. Been nuts with school and what not. I am not really a proponent of this practice because it seems to negate the idea that the relationship between two married people should be sacred and emotionally intimate.
That said, many countries outside of the West do not view the union as a friendship and “being joined as one”. Joining families and procreation are common reasons to marry. Men exposed to the West may think differently.
I was married to a Pakistani who I believe wanted to come to the US (I learned this later). He rarely saw his wife in Lehore so I accepted it. In some ways, since I am so independent, I saw it as a way for him to be focused on other things/people than me. So, as a plus, if we all lived in the same city, I would get a much needed break from him. I like being married but I need separation and “me time” frequently. I also wanted that marital union that Western culture espouses in the media, etc. So, one cannot have it both ways. I believe women are nesters in general and want a man to love only them.
Hope I explained myself well enough.
anthrogeek10
Oh-we divorced because I never felt that connection with him that I was discussing in the above post I made. I never felt *really* accepted and loved, like everyone on the face of this planet wants, no matter what culture you come from.
I also felt like he did not follow Islamic law in that he never told her what he was doing.
anthrogeek10
Just an observation/perspective on my part … I think that women who are truly okay with polygamy may be less emotional. I can see where being taken care of and having clear cut days where there is no obligation to another could be appealing and without the strong emotional link, make it easier for a woman to accept that her husband does the same to another woman as he does with her.
“If your fiancée loves you truly he will never want you to come to KSA because he knows very well what the situation will be for you.
If your fiancée does not stay with you in a civilised country he does not love you and he will not look after you in Saudi Arabia.”
Aafke-right on. I agree 110%. My ex Pakistan was living in KSA when we met in Turkey. He would not allow me to move there UNTIL he acquired a job in Bahrain/UAE, which he did eventually. I still don’t think we had the connection….in the end but…whatever.
anthrogeek10
Aafke, we can both pick and choose parts of each other’s statements to try and clarify our own oppinions and the whole debate just continues in circles.
I don’t really want to be a part of that.
What I want to make clear to you again is that not all your presumptions about me as a person is true or correct.
So please do not try to use me as an example of someone who you believe to be “brain washed” “Wahhabi/ salafi supporter” etc.
What ever I may be in your eyes is your own personal oppinion and not an acurate one at that.
No, I am not a man, I have not stated what my husband’s contributions are, nor made any statements that shed any light to the state of my families happyness or the lack of it. What I have done is answer questions put to me honestly without going into details.
Just because you have a strong opposition to my statements does not give you the right to portray me as someone who is stupid.
I am not elaborating on a lot of things as I do not feel the need to justify myself.
Nor am I trying to encourage anyone to follow in my footsteps.
As for who/ where or how I have gained my knowledge, or what you see as the lack of it, please don’t use that to belittle me nor twist my words to say “you’ve done it your self by saying…….”
Everyone has to make choices for them selves once they become an adult and live with the consequences.
Just because you may not believe that something like poligny can work for people does not mean that it’s a lie when someone else says it works for them.
Maybe you can’t accept that possibility but for me, it’s a fact but thank you all the same for your response.
NN,
AAfke has said much of what I feel, am not going to repeat it again, in addition to what I said above. As for making judgement about others, we all are entitled to express our opinions and if someone doesn’t want to hear public opinion about her personal life, she shouldn’t place her personal life in a public space. This is a post that invites opinion on this issue and everyone is free to express here.
About a woman marrying several men – my question is not whether that is alright, my question is why there are no men willing for such a relationship? Why do men feel that’s not alright and why don’t they accept it? It’s because they won’t allow women to treat them as objects for enjoyment, but will always find religious or otherwise, ways to justify their using the women as objects for enjoyment. I agree with Aafke that women who fall for such rhetoric are letting down womankind as a whole and that’s why it is wrong.
Maryam, ok, I’ll put it this way: I will suspect anybody who claims that men are allowed to have four wives at will, and women should deal with it, as a brainwashed salafi/wahhabi supporter. Any western woman who ”reverts” to that view must be brainwashed. So if you aren’t then I don’t understand why you agree to be a co-wife.
I must be missing crucial information but we can leave it at that.
Of course you are in no way obliged to share personal stuff on the internet. On the contrary; you should not share too much.
Athrogeek, Thank you for elaborating. Interesting.
I imagine a polygamous marriage can only be a superficial relationship at best.
Bedu, yes, you have a point. It takes all kinds to make a world and yes, there are people with very little emotional depth and feeling. I know such people too. For such people I can imagine it might work.
I still have the problem with co-ercion though. I would actually more easily accept it from ”free” people in the the free world as being a free decision, as from women who are doomed to live in supressive communities/religions without any rights or chances to get out of an unfulfilling relationship without suffering hardship and stigma’s.
“For those closed minded to the subject, it’s hard to understand but lets put it like this, those same people tend to be appalled to fing their friend’s husband has been cheating for years and keeping a woman on the side, had illegitimate children and neglects his duties as a husband, father and head of the house. It’s a no win situation. Would they rather have all the sneaking around and lies or an open, honest, legitimate and honroable relationship for their friend?
In Islam, a woman has the choice to free (divorce) herself from her husband if she does not want to be in a plural marriage. So FIND OUT YOUR RIGHTS IN ISLAM BEFORE MAKING LIFE CHANGING CHOICES.
Sorry for the long lecture.”
Thats a common justification that men use as a comparison between polygamy and monogamy. Not all men in non-Islamic countries cheat on their wives.
As far as rights in Islam for women, men control the power base such as the court system, religious leadership, etc. Therefore, men can manipulate the Qur’an to their liking and mostly get away with it. Look at the gang rapes that have happened in Pakistan. THAT IS AGAINST ISLAMIC LAW but women were put in jail. One woman in particular has been fighting back but she should not have to right such a horrific abuse against her.
There are many other examples.
It has been brilliantly said (in my own opinion), “..an equality which has existed for millenia has ended with Christianity.” (Fletcher) That equality was in reference to Ancient Egypt prior to the birth of Christianity. Islam was fast to follow that if you know your history. So, the point is-Abrahamic religions are very patriarchal.
anthrogeek10
Correction:
“right such a horrific abuse against her.”
FIGHT! Not right
“Everyone has to make choices for them selves once they become an adult and live with the consequences.
Just because you may not believe that something like poligny can work for people does not mean that it’s a lie when someone else says it works for them.”
Right on. Adults have a choice-particularly if they live in the core, Global North, West, whatever term you use. In the periphery, life is not so filled with choices. If two people (ok, 3 or more in this case) are happy-so be it. WHO CARES?
anthrogeek10
Daisy, there is only one bottom reason why in one’s subconcious it’s ok for one man to marry more women, and why it wrong for one woman to marry several husbands.
And that is value. And respect.
Women are worth less than men, therefore men can have more women.
Women are property. You can see that in effect in KSA. No matter what you throw at it, religion, custom, tradition.
Bottom line is: women are property. Women are not perceved as equal human beings. They are less than men. That’s why they have no rights. That’s why they are not allowed to travel. that’s why they get nothing in case of divorce, not even their children. Because children are property too.
No woman in KSA can follow her own mind, act as she pleases without the collaboration of a man.
That’s why in most Gulf countries women cannot marry ”foreign” men. In some countries if they do they loose their rights as citizens. Their children will not get citizenship.
No matter the bullsh*t about women being ”pearls” and ”diamonds” which have to be protected. All these restrictions, lies and insulting differences are aimed at women because deep in the subconsious women are despised as sub-human. Not cherished.
*“For those closed minded to the subject, it’s hard to understand but lets put it like this, those same people tend to be appalled to fing their friend’s husband has been cheating for years and keeping a woman on the side, had illegitimate children and neglects his duties as a husband, father and head of the house. It’s a no win situation. Would they rather have all the sneaking around and lies or an open, honest, legitimate and honroable relationship for their friend?
In Islam, a woman has the choice to free (divorce) herself from her husband if she does not want to be in a plural marriage. So FIND OUT YOUR RIGHTS IN ISLAM BEFORE MAKING LIFE CHANGING CHOICES.*
Exactely Athrogeek. It’s what you always hear from males.
Hence my doubts about Maryam’s identity or freedom of mind.
Sorry Maryam, don’t want to start the discussion again, but that was one of the things you said which raised flags in my mind.
“Athrogeek, Thank you for elaborating. Interesting.
I imagine a polygamous marriage can only be a superficial relationship at best. ”
Yes but like I said, the way men from that region of the world, GENERALLY view the unity of marriage in a different light than those who grew up in the Global North.
Yes, it was sadly superficial and I did not like that.
anthrogeek10
aafke,
Very true.
@Daisy,
Look, we are all entitled to our opinion. All I meant that it is, in my opinion, wrong to make my opinion a law by which other people should live.
As for your comment on “About a woman marrying several men – my question is not whether that is alright, my question is why there are no men willing for such a relationship? Why do men feel that’s not alright and why don’t they accept it?”, I have this comment to make:
Every day of every week there are men in every city willingly sleeping with married women. Lots of married women have affairs, some even last for years. It’s not the same as marriage, but there are indeed lots of men out there who accept that they are not the only male in the life of the woman they choose for company, be it for one week or one month. Just sayin’.
I think at the bottom of our hearts both men and women would prefer multiple sets of sexual partners but only one set of responsibilities. A woman may not want two husbands as in “two sets of household duties” but two lovers, why yes, very much so. Men may fudge a bit to claim honorable intentions but if it was possible, it is my belief that men would prefer a single marriage with a few nonmarital partners to multiple wives. Note that I am not making judgments of what is wrong or right. Just at what is human nature.
‘If two people (ok, 3 or more in this case) are happy-so be it. WHO CARES?’
No one wants to talk about the children of these ‘marriages’ do they? Of course they were discussed early on when talking about the decadent West and the babies born to unwed mothers though weren’t they? That’s bad, but the part-time dads in plural marriages are just fine.
While my husband would most likely not like me having another husband he really does not mind at ALL if I treat him like a sex object.
And trust me NN, no where in my heart, top, bottom or middle, am I interested in having multiple sex partners.
The children…
What upsets me is that polygamy makes the children very unhappy too. As I have heard from those who grew up in a polygamous marriage.
So yeah somewhere I do agree that concenbting adults should be left to do as they please.
But they shouldn not have children.
Actually what upsets me about men in the Gulf is that they breed like rabbits, dump the occasional wife now and then when they want an upgrade, impregnate really young women and then die of old age themselves, and all those wives and children are basically left to fend for themselves. Dreadfully poor and all those children do not get proper educations and end up as useless adults. And it’s not like in the days of the prophet, when men used to marry divorcees and widows all the time: nowadays once you’re not a virgin anymore your marketvalue is close to zero.
And if concenting adults can do as the please and contract polygamous marriages, than that includes polyandry. Women can have multiple men.
And I suppose in that case men with multiple wives have wives who have multiple husbands and I can only advice everybody to keep up their diaries.
And of course that must also include consenting adults not getting married, but just hang around and maybe have sex. If they are all consenting.
And that would also include same-sex marriages if all adults are consenting. Naturally.
The doctor from star trek enterprise is Nebulan, they are all allowed up to three spouses each. And nobody is jealous of anybody.
Excellent arrangement.
Of course I would never want to stop consenting spouses to have just one partner if they both consent.
Hi everyone
Im only commenting quickly to clarify a few things that you should know because it changes alot of things…
( including Muslim marriage Guide)
1. I came to saudi from my own free will couple years ago (beleive or not)
2. I have established my life here and quite liked it BEFORE I met my fiancee.
3. I work, earn my own living, am independant in the restrictions of the Saudi law of course
4. I have a large amount of friends, contacts to saudis, westernes, and I also have a very influential “wasta”
5. I am already a muslima, I converted from my own will as a year ago I had started to read up on Islam and I realized how ignorant I had been, felt I have finally found the Truth and now I feel I am on the right path in my life.
6. I dont mind at all living here, my life is very good, I have hobbies, friends,pets a home just like back home in Scandinavia.
7. I have read all the english books on islam that I could find in Jarir
8.I intend to get saudi nationality so that I can stay in saudi in case of divorce (keeping my own passport too)
9.We have discussed in detail every aspect of our future life here and agredd on everything from getting me a permission to travel alone to how our kids will be raised.
10.I love my fiancee very much, he has the kindest, most generous heart, he always puts me first, and respecting his mother does not make him a spineless horrible man.
wa salaam
Forgot to mention that my fiancee totally disapproves what his father did!He says as a muslim he cant condemn polygamy to be wrong, but its just not for him.
In the case that the man would marry an eldelry widow for example like the Prophet did,he thinks its ok, if the first wife agrees.
Strange that you left out any of this when you first introduced us to your plans. And kept it up for so long.
That way you put us all on a completely wrong track
Well, if the total lack of freedom suits you, and you don’t mind losing any and all rights: have a nice life!
Aafke,
I feel like i must mention how an anthropologist would approach this topic.
We, as anthropologists (or future ones like myself) enjoy learning about why people do what they do not only in different societies of our own but migration issues and other phenomena. We try very hard to take a step back and be objective as possible.
I don’t know about you, but I feel like I learn more from people and why they do what they do through bridging understanding and not being critical.
Everyone knows that KSA is the most patriarchal country in the world. Its no secret to most people.
Like you, I would not want to live in KSA unless I was on a temporary assignment doing anthro work or whatever. It’s too restrictive for me personally. But-if a woman makes that choice, I try not to judge.
anthrogeek10
Aafke, why do you find it strange?
What do you mean I kept it up for so long?
I dont have much time to hang online, I’m very busy girl
The topic is not about me, or my situation. I just wrote about my experience on the topic.
I didnt expect people to start giving me advice(thank you everybody anyways), and it looks like everyone assumed I’m american, christian and living in western country
just I wanted to quickly clear things so people wont need to give advice on things I already know.
I feel what you wrote was unnecessary and even a little aggressive. Why do you have such a hate toward Saudi-Arabia and saudi men?At least from what I’ve read some of your posts I remember your aggressive approach.
Do you kow any saudis personally, have saudi friends? have you lived here?
I have to admit that when I first came here I had a very bad impression of saudi men, and wanted nothing to do with them lol!
I would’ve never, ever thought I’d end up marrying one!!
So I admit I had my prejudices about Islam, how women are treated in saudi, how they interprit the religion, how awful the men are…
But now..I’m glad I came and this has really opened my eyes
I hope this cleared things out
-L
Aafke-
I just had the thought that everyone’s journey and experiences are different from the other. Your journey is probably vastly different than my own but I respect that. I do hope that is how I am percieved as well.
Some women, for whatever reason will be less affected by the distinct disparity between KSA and Western nations and have no issue moving there.
Respectfully
anthro you know
NN,
I wasn’t talking about extra-marital affairs men and women have – I know they are common and not only in the West.
I was talking about this religious/legal system which allows men to have multiple wives but expects women to be faithful to one man, be modest according to his wishes and the man can still divorce them at will without caring about them in future. I argued if we believe in the concept of equality, why doesn’t the same religion allow the women to have the same privileges? If at all women are treated as equals, and if the same privileges are allowed to them as religious law, is there any man willing to accept this kind of marriage?
I am not talking about clandestine or not so clandestine extra-marital affairs, I am talking about men accepting this as a religious legal system – why are the women expected to accept this religious legal system as normal and why aren’t men willing to accept it for themselves?
Unless the men are willing to accept this as “normal” religious or legal system, I feel this should not be allowed anywhere as a law – East or West.
And if you think I have a restricted view of monogamy, I would like to tell you that only till some decades ago, polygamy was the norm in India – it was accepted as normal and no one questioned it and the wives in many cases took it as “normal” – they were “consenting partners”. Only when the Indian Constitution was drwn up, it was made illegal and monogamy became the legal form of marriege.
If you read the socio-cultural history of India, you’ll realise that a lot of practices that are being propagated in the West as “progressive and liberal” were in fact followed in pre-modern India by way of tradition with popular consent. Now they are being perceived as retrograde and against the norms of modernity and democracy and hence, waning out.
Out of curiosity, for women living in Western countries who are “second wives,” what is their legal standing? What rights do the have in the legal system, if the husband decides to leave? Sure, children have rights in the West regardless of the marital status of their parents, but what about the second wife’s right to property, alimony etc? And who gets the “flag” if the husband is a fallen soldier?
Finally, why is it a matter of pride for women to say that they don’t contribute to the household in spite of having independent incomes?
Californiadreamin,
I agree with you absolutely. In fact I have been long desisting myself from saying this, to avoid argument – if the so-called “second wife” lives in the West, I am not aware of any Western country that allows polygamy. Hence, she doesn’t have any legal rights as a wife. The first wife can always sue the husband since she is the one who is the legal wife. Moreover, the husband doesn’t even have to take the trouble to go through the minimal procedure of divorce to leave this so-called “second wife.” As I said above, this is nothing but trying to legitimise extra-marital affairs by misrepresenting Islam.
If this second wife lives in an Islamic country, then contrary to what has been asserted above, it’s not easy for her to get a divorce, she doesn’t get maintenance and in many countries, has to return the Mehr she got at the time of marriage. I really don’t know what kind of “rights” are being referred to here.
As for earning money but not contributing to the household, again it’s a distorted version of the Islamic arrangement, which makes it obligatory for a husband to provide for his wives. This was done because in the time of the Prophet Muhammad, women didn’t work – some engaged in business, but this was not a norm contrary to what has often been asserted. Since most women didn’t have an income, men were commanded to provide for them.
This has been distorted by some “converts” who want to earn and have money for themselves because they live in a society where it is normal for women to work, but they don’t want to shoulder the responsibility of the household under the pretext of Islamic injunction – smacks of selfishness and nothing else.
In fact in the West some people like to experiment with different kinds of relationship arrangements – some of them involve mulitple-partnerships. Now it appears some of them have found an easy excuse in Islam to legitimise these experimental relationships as religiously valid. And there are others who argue that these should be made valid in law. You do that and what do you get? – the many traditional cultural practices as they existed in pre-modern India! It seems we didn’t have to go through the process of modernisation after all!
And never mind that Islam places a strong emphasis on family – and polygamy is contrary to family values. This is also the reason why Indians – Hindus, Muslims, Christians and others, have taken to monogamy in a big way – monogamy strengthens family values.
I would reiterate here that Indian Muslims deserve a compliment because they are allowed by law to have four wives and yet, more than 95% of them are monogamous – they don’t exercise their privilege.
But it is highly unfortunate that the Arabs don’t acknowledge Indian Muslims and the Western converts don’t really bother about Indian Muslims because India is Third World – never mind what kind of intellectual callibre you have. They think West Asia is the only representation of Islamic societies.
@Anthro,
Thank you for responding and explaining. Yes; you explained yourself well! I also believe that the majority of women are “nesters.”
Carol
do you know if he ever brought his first wife to the US or did she just remain in Pakistan?
‘This has been distorted by some “converts” who want to earn and have money for themselves… smacks of selfishness and nothing else.’
And what about the ones that DON’T want to work and refuse to work even though the family is in need?
“do you know if he ever brought his first wife to the US or did she just remain in Pakistan?”
I caught him at his own game before bringing him here. Unless he married another American woman then I think not.
You need to stop listening to lies. I know it may be difficult to believe that you are being lied to, but the truth is that your partner may be cheating on you. Making judicious use of some online sites can help you catch a cheating spouse. These sites can even help you trace a cell phone number. If you can detect suspicious phone numbers from your spouse’s phone, then you may have all the information you need.
Goodness guys whatever happened to giving someone the benefit of the doubt? You’re going to scare Laurea to death here. Not all Saudi men or even converts to Islam are cut from the same cloth you know. Lighten up already.
And Maryam save your breath my dear, the likes of Aafke come across as so aggressive and arrogant it’s hard to even take what they have to say seriously sometimes!
So my advice to you is whenever you visit blogs and the like be hesitant to what you choose to share and be forewarned EVERYONE under the sun will feel like it is their right to comment on it. Freedom of speech, right?
Just take the good of what you find here and dismiss all the rubbish and remember not everyone is Muslim or even practices Islam the same.
Anthroqeek10 summed it up quite nicely: “Your journey is probably vastly different than my own but I respect that.”
Thanks anthro we need more people like u in the world!
Anthroqeek10 summed it up quite nicely: “Your journey is probably vastly different than my own but I respect that.”
Thanks anthro we need more people like u in the world!
Wow…no one has said that about me before. Thank you. _*blush*.
anthrogeek10
I am not agressive, I am very caring extremely worried for the well-being of others.
Unfortunately saudi men are as described. Can I help it they are weak and liars? The chance of meeting a real honest one is exteremely small.
And you ummTiflain are not that happy either, but unable to get out by your own account. I am very sorry for you and do not wish such a life on anybody.
The percentage of foreign women who are happily married to Saudis is sadly very small against those who are not happy.
And the internet is just about swamped with the life-stories of girls who, having been used by Saudi men, are abandoned as soon as they go home, have an arranged marriage or has the girl has become pregnant. (They always seem to forget that it takes two for a girl to get pregnant)
The same story again, and again, and again,and again, and again.
I have friends who have been lied to by Saudi men in the most heinous ways.
I know Saudi men-friends who say exactely what I have said here. I know Saudi women who do not want to be maried to a Saudi man at all. Ever.
Am I to remain silent when I see another hapless victim going down the abbys?
That would be very dishonourable.
Athrogeek ”caught him at his own game”, is a strong intelligent independant woman, ànd living in a free country where she can act for herself.
Any woman who lives in KSA is a slave to the man who ”owns” her, and there is no escape , even if you have ”caught him at his own game”. That is something lovestruck blind women never seem to be able to realise.
Read here what a Saudi woman thinks of how women are treated in KSA:
http://saudijeans.org/2009/11/21/fawzia-albakr/
Look at Ummtiflain: she can’t get out of a loveless marriage. She would loose her children, she would be cast out of the country without a sponsor.
@ummtiflain
Thank you for your advice. Sorry if my reply is slightly late as I have not been around.
aafke, ever heard the expression of how assumptions make an ass out of you?
i posted earlier that i was having communication issues with my saudi husband. neva said it was a loveless marriage and neva said i couldn’t leave with my children. my husband is not the type to take my children away and have me, as you put it, “cast out of the country”. don’t be so dramatic. as it is we both choose to carry on because we realize it is betta to stick it out and make an effort to improve things. so many people view divorce as an easy option but that just isn’t the case. i chose my husband and i chose this country, i don’t need your pity. i am well aware of the consequence of choice.
i was asking Bedu about this because my friends don’t have saudi husbands. but lovely of you to bring this up though nevamind the irrelevance to Bedu’s post above on polygany.
again you seem content in claiming that all saudi men are bad. stop looking for only the negative. injustice is universal it’s not only here in saudi. and do you really believe only saudi men deceive women? don’t be so naive. if someone has it in them to deceive it doesn’t matta their nationality. i know plenty of western men who can be just as dishonest if not worse to their women. but i’ll let u play the game of compare and contrast, i’m not interested.
so what’s your setup anyway? are u married? go on, tell us your story. you know the one where you’ve found the perfect mate, ie not saudi, how you’re still on your honeymoon and how you thank your lucky stars you’d neva be like us.
and i 100% resent and reject your statement ” Any woman who lives in KSA is a slave to the man who ”owns” her, and there is no escape “……….goodness, we’re not all under lock and key here. and really, how disrespectful to women in general and even to Bedu who lives here with her saudi husband! one would have to question why you even frequent this blog my dear, i suspect rebel rousing. don’t waste our time.
so please for the love of God, don’t use Bedu’s blog as a battleground to prove your point of how bad saudi men are and how no one could eva be happy here.
but as I told Maryam, freedom of speech, right? so feel free to keep spewing the rubbish and i will simply discard the bits that are not constructive in any way.
Dump this AmericanBedu and listen to the real truth on http://www.poweroftruthradio.com..