In Saudi Arabia it is typical for commercial enterprises to close down daily during prayer times. As a result one must plan logistics carefully and especially in the earlier evening hours when going out to run errands in Saudi Arabia. While the closings for prayer may seem unusual at first, residents of the Kingdom (both Saudis and expats alike) will soon adapt as closing for prayer is an inherent part of Saudi culture. However one does have to wonder if the local online edition of the “Eye on Hail” newspaper is taking closing for prayer to an additional level. Eye on Hail is published from Hail Province and if you visit the web site in accordance of prayer times in Hail, instead of seeing the opening page for the online paper a message stating “Closed for Prayer” will appear. In addition to the closed message, there is a counter to let visitors know how many minutes it will be before the regular web site is again accessible. The web site is therefore closed down through an automated program five times each day for a 30 minute period.
There is a debate among Saudis ranging from viewing the action of Eye on Hail as noble to downright backwards. The intent of Eye on Hail by closing down its site during prayer times is to further encourage visitors to pray on time. However this does not take into account the virtual world of the internet where prayer times are not the same as that in Hail.
What is your opinion on this gesture? Is it noble? Is it backwards? Does it enhance or negate the image of Saudi Arabia?
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As someone who has spent more than 12 years writing software for websites I find this kind of action absurd. After all the website is still running, the server isn’t stopped. If they wanted to be really clever they could have some kind of form that has a user enter their location and religion (something similar to how brewery sites ask you to give your birthdate) and have the sight unavailable if they are Muslim and it is prayertime. With cookies one would only have identify oneself every so often. It would be a fun way of making their point.
That being said, this isn’t the only site that does things like this. Some websites run by Orthodox Jews close for their sabbath in a similar fashion.
That is a very interesting suggestion Jerry that such a feature could be incorporated. Perhaps you should email them and see if they’d be interested!
As an expat living in SA…I don’t care one way or another. But, it is inconvenient (however, I’ve gotten used to it)…and I often wonder how they get any work done, and how businesses make money. It took 3 attempts to actually find a particular mattress store open, even when it wasn’t prayer time. I can understand day time closures in the summer time due to the heat, but to pray. IDK…to make it a “country wide” thing is ridiculous (especially since I see SO MANY MUSLIMS on the streets and in the malls, NOT PRAYING during prayer time). That’s the question I have, why is it that they will close, for example, Ikea (they don’t kick you out, but you can’t get any sales support), but I see every single Muslim in the just shopping away, ignoring the prayer call? What is that about? Seems hypocritical to me. Either you’re down fully with your religion, or you’re not. It’s amazing how regardless of the religious group people claim, they pick and choose what to follow like it’s a buffet.
AoA, I am an expat lived in KSA for 25 years, and then sent back cuz my fathers iqama wasnt renewed but thats another story. i think the closing of shops for prayer was never an inconvenice and shouldnt be for a mnuslim. there were mnay a time when i took a break from shopping and prayed just because the shops were closed and i am sure this is just not the case with me, closing down a website is quite another story. but still not that much of an inconveniece that it has been a topic of ur blog quite a few times. if u need info u can come after 5 min as wwell. we waste time so much that i dont think waiting for 5 min is an inconveniece anymore.
Just like not all Christians go to Mass on Sundays, not all Moslems pray when they’re supposed to.
Closing stores in Saudi is the only way for many store clerks to get a break sometimes during the entire time the store is open (morning till night) … for the bathroom, to rest, to eat, and if they want…yes, to pray.
As for online, it seems that just a reminder pop up to those in Hail would suffice if they really want to do that.
You can drag a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. I think that this saying is true also for everything else in life…including prayer. Even if you get someone to go through the motions…if their heart isn’t into it, then does it really matter that they were made to pray? I guess we’d need to ask one of the mutawa for that answer….and they’d probably say, yes, they must!
All Christians don’t go to mass…because Catholics practice the act of going to mass…protestants do not., not to mention the other “christian” sects. My whole point would be, if your heart isn’t in it…then can you claim to be muslim, christian,jew, hindu, or any other religion? Either you accept or you don’t. Otherwise…it’s kinda hypocritical to pick and choose what you want to practice when “all of it” is part of that faith. To be correct, you would have to start your own religion (i.e. the lutherans, protestants, etc.). But…I will not go there, since this is not a debate on religion, which would be a useless debate anyway.
our religion is simple, believe in the creator and his messenger… let the logic goto hell..
By this I mean:
1 > BELIEVE
2 > LOGIC
3 > If Allah commands and it does not make any sense or is illogical to us, WE GO by Allah’s command and not OUR short term logic.
so all those who come here n show symptoms of hatered towards Islam and indirectly attack Islam while others just sit there and enjoy the comments (cuz they probably criticize Islam on exactly what group members here do not understand about Islam) so not a single voice is raised DEFENDING Islam. But if someone says that veil is in Islam the Wo0o0o0o0o0oo0o0ooooooooooW THATS EXTREMISM…
One of the other members “LYNN” also attacked the principles of Islam yet no one stood up against her. One of her posts where she said:
“Are you frickin’ serious? Reported him for what? What is the charge? Reporting on a man? Is it because she did not have another woman to corroborate since in Islam it takes 2 women to be equal testimony to a man.”
My question is, WHERE ARE those members of the group who show so much worry regarding the rise of extremism? Who fight as if they know exactly what the Prophet SAW meant and all his Hadith turn out to be invalid and unreliable cuz it is impossible to have something maintained for that long ( As if Allah cannot MAKE it happen Astughferullah ).
Does YOUR interpretation of Qur’an NOT say anything regarding this?
Salaam Alaikum,
YQ its no use commenting out here.
First of all their hatred is obvious and secondly when Ms. Carol keeps deleting off comments what can we do?
I just prefer to stay away from this fitnah…
Peace brother…
Walaikum Ussalaam..
well i hope u dont use any abusive words or something.. cuz I think so far I havent and so far i got no comments deleted lol..
fitnah, lol must admit…
Salaam again akhi,
never used abusive words i just confronted some one here with their past history and associations proving that they are a bigot, and she deleted my comment. thats the fact…
Any way hanging around here is just akin to wasting time.
There are other saudi blogs which actually help people by advices and suggestions unlike this one which is purely about slandering.
well now after this comment Carol, Abu Sinan, Aafke, and lynn will get charged up start yelling away… would love to watch their rambling
YQ,
It’s very unfortuanate when you feel that anyone who does not believe the same as you is automatically your enemy that you must fight to defend yourself against. Please see that your comments here reflect how the extremists feel and we all see the results of their actions.Seriously, look at the world and the state of Islam and the conditions your brothers in faith are living with due to the reactions of these ‘defenders of the faith’. If you trusted God as he has instructed you to, you would realize that NOTHING happens without Allah’s will and Allah is all knowing and has everything under control. To quote YOU ‘As if Allah cannot MAKE it happen Astughferullah’
‘One of the other members “LYNN” also attacked the principles of Islam yet no one stood up against her.’
Again, why stand up against me? Did I say something incorrect? Did someone give a reason why this woman was going to be lashed for reporting on a man? Do not ‘stand up against’ – EXPLAIN, calmly, if someone is wrong about something? Does the Quran tell us that a woman’s testimony is worth half than a man’s or not?
And I disagree with Abu Abdullah that listening to other’s points of view as ‘fitnah’ Save that word for looking at porn or something.
And regarding forcing people to pray, it’s because they believe that something spiritually magical will happen eventually if they just go through the motions of prayer. If someone talks about losing their faith they are always told to just pray, pray, pray and keep praying and it will come to you. But then again. I’m most likely wrong. I mean, I’m not a Muslim, how am I to know anything about Islam? Especially if Muslims are instructed not to have any communication with me, as a non-muslim (aka Enemy of Islam) in case of ‘fitna’
Well, it’s a personal choice of everyone – including Muslims – whether they pray or follow any other religious activity or not. It’s not right to judge them if they don’t. At the same time, the website has a right to remind others it’s time for prayer in its own region if it wants to; it’s for others to take the reminder or not. May be the website should show some kind of UTC calculation, so that people in other regions can calculate their prayer time from there.
But I guess closure of shops is problematic for non-Muslims. I hope the medicine shops and hospitals are open at least, just in case of emergency.
Sorry, wrong email above!
Well, it’s a personal choice of everyone – including Muslims – whether they want to pray or follow any religious practice or not. It’s not right to judge them on this. Again, the website has a right to decide to remind others it’s time for prayer in its own region – it’s for others to take the reminder or ignore it. Perhaps the website should have some kind of UTC calculation so that people in other regions can calculate their prayer time from there.
But it must be a problem for the non-Muslims if the shops close so often. I hope the medicine shops and the hospitals are open, in case of an emergency.
@Daisy,
Oh yes…hospitals and hospital ER’s do not shut down for prayer. Chemists/Pharmacy’s do shut down.
I liked Jerry’s suggestion that software could be configured to adapt to any viewer visiting the web site whether it was time for prayer in their location and not only in Hail.
I don’t see a problem by this web site being closed down. Does it affect any ones life significantly?
And is any one over here really a daily visitor to this web site, so what bothers you if you this web site is closed?
I studied in a Private Anglican school back home, and I was forced to stand in the assembly and recite the “Lords Prayer”, and i didn’t have the option to say no. So whats your take on this? Was the school justified to force other non-CHRISTIAN kids to pray???
@Abu Abdullah:
I am so surprised that the school you attended forced you to pray the Lords Prayer even though you were not Muslim. What they should have done instead was to make accomodations for your prayers and timings. Or no prayers.
I don’t want you or anyone to get the idea that it’s wrong for the newspaper to shut down but instead pointing this out for discussion. I wonder whether other sites run by muslims would ultimately follow suit?
Bedu:
Well its a common norm in India and Caribbean for the schools to force upon morning prayers.
And thanks for clarifying about the website issue, however i must admit i am a bit appalled by the constant negative stance taken by certain commentators on any thing and everything about Saudi Arabia.
I’m so surprised that people get so angry on this blog!!! I grew up having to say the Lord’s prayer in school. In Canada in public schools there are no more forced prayers. In my opinion one can pray in their head quietly to themselves if they want to. They don’t need a special time or place. In Canada Muslims can’t just stop their jobs to pray and I’m sure they will still be welcomed in heaven in spite of this.
As to the topic of having a web site closed for prayer … people should be able to behave as they wish and not have every single thing imposed upon them. Isn’t it much better to do something because you want to do it rather than being forced? Well, in kindergarten and nursery schools here they have a quiet time. You can’t necessarily make a child sleep but you can force them to be quiet and rest I guess.
I live in Morocco (for 17 years). My Moroccan daughter was equally surprised to hear about everything closing for prayer time. She said, “Well they could just go watch TV,” when that comes on line (assuming they have satellite dishes where not only state channels have closed for prayer time).
Here in Morocco FEW businesses close at that time, although many sole proprietors close individually. Many taxis go to the mosque, or just stop along the road and pray with a small prayer rug between fares.
However, in functioning businesses, 90% do not close for prayer, and sometimes employees are told “they can pray at home on their own time.” In factories, however, they do tend to close for the approximately 4 PM prayer time for half an hour, and another one or two prayer times for fifteen minutes (if I am remembering correctly–one of my former maids went to work in a factory and told me this), but the factory owners extend the work day by one hour in order to make up for the lost time. By ringing a bell when the prayer break starts and stops, it controls people taking advantage.
Paloma Pentarian (in Morocco), on Women’s Wisdom
palomapentarian.wordpress.com
It does seem like there are a wide range of temperaments on this blog…as well as individuals having strong feelings on certain issues. That’s why there is the debate page where anyone can rant as strongly as they wish on whatever topic interests them.
I also agree that prayer, regardless of faith, should never be forced.
Carol, I agree with you…and I think that religion should be spread by one’s actions more than anything. As my Islamic teacher told our class once, the Lord’s prayer (The Our Father), is almost identical to the Fatha in Islam in meaning.
Lynn, I don’t want to get the girl in trouble by revealing too many details about the case, but basically, the Saudi man’s workers were on her property and she asked them to leave, and the addition to the man’s building was in violation of local building codes as I understand it. I heard that this particular guy has many grievances against him by others as well, but somehow, he gets away with it all the time….so obviously, he has wasta with the authorities. They were angry because this gal also dared to represent herself in court.
@JerryM, I had no idea all these things were possible!
But I think it’s silly to close a blog because somewhere it’s prayertime!
It is hypocritical as usual.
Too much manic attention to details. Too little attention to reality.
As if all people go to prayer: most only skiff if the religious police comes along.
Not every one believes in their hearts. A lot of people go through the motions only. And the more they attend to details, the less is their real faith.
I know people of true faith. People who have true faith, do not need prompting to pray. They pray because they wish to do so. People who believe in their hearts do not need to make a show for the whole world of it.
That is what I think.
A woman getting punished for daring to represent herself is typical. They hate to see women being strong. The punishment is for daring to be a strong woman. And it is defenitly not sunnah. Women in the time of the prophet were outspoken. They had far more freedoms than saudi women have now.
Regarding veil being a cultural thing or religious, please read:
http://saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentID=2009101251285
Abu Abdullah says: ‘I studied in a Private Anglican school back home, and I was forced to stand in the assembly and recite the “Lords Prayer”, and i didn’t have the option to say no.’
That’s right, you sure didn’t because your parents, who chose THAT school for you, must have wanted that for you or else they would not have chosen that particular PRIVATE, not public, but Private (meaning parents choice) school. If there was no other options available they could have always taught you at home themselves so clearly they thought it was ok for you to say the Lord’s Prayer – Lord = Allah anyway it not like you were forced to say the shahada without being Muslim. I wonder if I chose to send my kids to an Islamic School would I be able to stop them from teaching them to pray or would they just think I was crazy?
Maybe the closing will act as a reminder .. well if they want to close ,it’s their choice i guess.
@abu abdullah,
I went to a catholic school in india too , this was long ways back you, and yes we all said the lord’s prayer, years later my daughter went to a private christian school and one day after a few weeks of school we were sitting down to dinner and she had us stop and said the prayer
My parents – staunch hindu’s were there at that time and asked her what she was doing and she said she was thanking the lord for the food we eat , when they asked her which one she pointed to the place where we light the lamp and said “them god”
I have no doubt god accepted her prayer. what a 3 yr old understands we as adults fight..
The schools have no right to force anyone to pray , but you can always say your prayers instead, do you think they would care. i think the emphasis is on establishing the discipline of praying or communing witha higher power.
Abu Abdullah, I am sorry you had to stand up and recite the lords prayer if you were muslim at that time. Maybe your parents aren’t so you can’t blame them for sending you to a christian school. Besides, It’s still the same god. And as you will know being muslim, it is the intention and what’s in a persons heart which really counts for god. And this is not for other people who can’t see it, but god knows, so if your heart is pure it is allright.
YQ, nice link but it is still only some humans opinion on niqab, it wasn’t signed by Allah, so I still think women are perfectely fine following the quran rather than fallable human opinions and explanations and desires.
Therefor a muslim woman is perfectly ok if she covers the chest and down to the knees.
And nothing else.
Lynn it is disgusting that when a woman denounced a man who is acting against the law she gets tortured instead! And no amount of fake quoting from that quran and hadith can make that right!.
YQ, shame on you for blaming Lynn.
Aerinndis, I agree, I think they just hate to see a strong woman and so rape the concept of justice so they can punish her.
Well Lynn, Radha and Aafke, before you wanna say Lords Prayer is same as Suraah Fatiha which may not be exactly the same.
However bottom line Christian Schools can’t force Muslim kids to pray the Christian way and the same goes for Muslim Schools with Christian Students.
You may argue its the same god but i don’t buy it, i choose not to buy it and its my right.
Now as usual you all rant that muslims are the racist, check this out the new headlines from your land of the free:
“Course in Islam angers parents: California middle school has students role-playing and dressing as Muslims” http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_6_18/ai_83144710/
And about this School in your country where a teacher showed the Anti-Islam Movie “FITNA” produced by Geert Wilder who himself claims to be Anti-ISLAM
http://www.whas11.com/news/local/stories/whas11-topstory-090922-film-upsets-students.1a5c618d4.html
Now you all say its not a big deal about the Lords Prayer shoved down my throat, what do you say about the racism, prejudice and hate taught in your so called westernized, modern, secular schools??? huh???
I got my other comment on moderation by bedu…
meanwhile any school forcing Christian prayer on other children is condemnable, no matter what, no matter what the words are, no matter how it is done.
And i don’t think muslim schools force non-muslim children to Say the SHAHADAH or do Salaah, LYNN Prove your accusation on muslim schools please.
I proved mine thanks to Radha’s admission and my other comment got links as well to prove it.
@Abu Abdullah – posts with multi-links automatically go into moderation. You’ll see your post now.
Now I do not know for sure but would an Islamic school even accept a non-muslim?
I am aware of multiple exceptions of schools which had any kind of prayers or religious teaching that students of different faiths would be separated with other options for prayer or study if the parents requested.
@Carol,
The ISA, Islamic Saudi Academy here in the DC area, funded and run by the Saudi government, has students of all faiths as well as faculty of all faiths. Non Muslims can opt out of prayers and religious classes.
Students and faculty get religious holidays coming from Christian and Muslim tradition.
This is, however, in the USA so it may be different in Muslim countries.
In some schools in Canada children are taught about other religions including Islam. In fact when I went to Sunday school as a child I was taught about Islam and Judaism. Do Muslim children get to learn about other religions????
My grandchildren live in a very multi-cultural area and they learn about different religions in school and the children all get along well together. That’s how people overcome fear and distrust!!
The parents of the California school went way overboard and perhaps the school went a bit too far in their instructions but we should all learn about the different religions in the world and respect the beliefs of others as well.
Allah and God are one and the same.
No problem carol, understand your blog policies. Thanks for clearing it.
About Muslim schools, yes in India they do admit non-muslim students.
I studied for some time in a Muslim College in South India where scholarships were made available from the Muslim Wakf and 60% of the Students were non-muslims, and here too they were never asked to do salaah or do anything muslim. However Muslim students were encouraged to do salaah and other stuff and the non-muslim student would be on the cricket pitch.
Other than the Madarasas all schools and colleges run by Muslims in India allow non-muslim students also some give scholarships.
Notable Muslim schools and colleges in India which also allow non-muslim students are, Islamic International School run by Islamic Research Foundation, India, Justice Basheer Ahmed School and College and not to forget the most famous Aligarh Muslim University which also has more non-muslim majority.
And coming close to Home KAUST sponsored by a Saudi Arabia which boasts about its Islamic Heritage, also espouses Islam as its creed, allows more than 95% of its foreign students (many are non-muslims) to study for free… If you had heard King Abdullah’s Speech on KAUST he clearly said its purpose is to rekindle the scientific spirit in the Islamic World.
So the bottom Line there are ample number of Muslim universities and schools who also allow non-muslims to study with them and also for at time FREE…
Thanks both Abu Abdullah and Abu Sinan for the clarifications. That was also interesting input from Wendy too.
@abu abdullah,
It’s not my intention to condone forced prayer, whatever religion it may be. IN my case i went to a catholic school even though i was not one for it’s high quality of education, my parents knew their policy and didn’t mind . Likewise we sent our daughter to a christian nursery, and agreed to their policies. so no complaints.
As for muslim colleges in india yes they do not enforce prayers on non-muslim students likewise the hindu and christian colleges do not enforce prayer . Even The high school i went to did no prayer at all.. sang the national anthem and thay was that. Even though it was predominantly hindu about 90% +
I think it depends onthe ages/schools etc., again it’s a free choice if you object to the prayer i guess you could always have spoken to the administration.
A school is a place of education and opening minds. That is no place for a religious fight. religion should have no business in schools , refer to GOD as GOD aand be done with it.
This whole “my God/Allah is better than yours” crap is so tiresome. Isnt it enough that we pray to Him…the how of it seems less important…in my opinion.
btw from personal experience…Muslim countries enforce Islam on people (non Muslims/Muslims) a hell of a lot more than non Muslims enforcing anything on Muslims. Again, my personal experience.
@ Coolred38 You are right, as if muslim countries leave anybody a choice. In Saudi Arabia all are forced to prayer. Also peole who are clearly foreigners.
All women have to be suffocated in the ugly black abaya.
No choice.
No freedom.
@ Abu Abdullah, I think you are being very silly. You live in Saudi Arabia now and you know very well how there are no freedoms at all!!!
You sound like the sort of people who probably like that.
You probably enjoy the supression of women, the harassment of expats who are not muslim.
But you have no case. I suppose nothing worse happened to you in a Christan country than having to say a christian prayer at the christian school your (christian?) parents put you on.
For shame! Ignoring the injustice all around you in Saudi Arabia. But complaining about the past here.
@Aerinndis,
As one who has been living in Saudi Arabia I can tell you that non-muslims and menstruating women are not forced or expected to pray. Yes, if the Muttawa are out and about they will certainly expect all Saudi MALES to go and pray, and if they are muslim they should want to go and pray at prayer time anyhow.
I would not say there are no freedoms in Saudi but perhaps differing kinds of freedom as compared to other places in the world.
It depends on where you are in Saudi and under what circumstances as to whether an abaya let alone black abaya is required.
About this debate about Christian schools – My entire schooling was done in a range of Christian schools run by the missionaries from different denominations – what are called the “Convent schools” here. In all of those schools – we ALL – ragardless of our religious backgrounds, said the Lord’s Prayer daily, were taken to the Church in the school compunds at least once a week if not more number of times, prayed there, listened to sermons, attended class lectures on the teachings of the Bible and the biography of Jesus, celebrated Christmas, took part in the Nativity Plays, sang the Christmas carols, listened to the preachings of a visiting Bishop. In one school we even had to pass a mandatory Bible exam in order to be promoted to the next class, regardless of our religion. And I am proud to say that there were a few Christian students in my class, but I topped this Bible exam! This was also the time I read the whole Bible – both Testaments from cover to cover – at the age of 9. During those 12 years of my life, Christianity was almost like a second religion to me. And this education was expensive – my father spent a large part of his income educating us in these expensive schools, eventhough both of my parents were staunch followers of their own religion. For my Christian classmates, this expensive education was free and indeed, many of them came from very poor families.
Unlike Abu Abdullah, I do not resent this, rather I consider myself fortunate I got this education and am grateful to my father he sent me to these schools – one, religious education apart, these schools maintain a very high standard of education in other subjects. They pay attention to every aspect of their students’ personality development. That is the reason parents send their children to these schools, spending a lot of money on this education, even if they are not Christians. Two, this kind of education opened me up at a young age to the idea that there are religious beliefs other than our own in this world and we must be sensitive to other people’s religions. This is how I developed an interest in learning about religions other than my own. Though, I wonder what kind of impact this education has on the Christian students – do they become more orthodox Christians? And no, in my entire school life I didn’t see anyone converting to Christianity, nor did our Missionary teachers try to convert anyone.
As for the argument about imposition – well these schools are otherwise providing a good education to the students and in return for this,if they want us to listen to their religious teachings and say the Lord’s Prayer, I don’t see why we should resent this. After all, all prayers reach the same place, no matter in which religion, language or words we pray and no matter by which name we call the Supreme Divine Power. After all the truth is that the government hasn’t been able to open up secular schools of their standard all over the country and the Missionaries are filling up this void. So they will naturally like to make us familiar with their religion. I don’t see why we should resent this.
@Daisy
We Paid the fee for the education, and i don’t have to listen to their whatever it is CHRISTIAN LORD’s PRAYER. I don’t want to or like to, just like you i have my rights and wishes.
As i showed earlier the RACIST CALIFORNIAN CHRISTIAN PARENTS also complained and made a ruckus just because of a Chapter in ISLAM, and i am sure if a School would recite Suraah Fatiha to CHRISTIAN STUDENTS in your country, the CHRISTIAN PARENTS would be up in arms.
@Aerinids:
You are silly to say that in Saudi Arabia CHRISTIANS and HINDUS are forced to pray, no they are not. If a Muttaween see’s them he only asks for their ID, if he is a non-muslim he simply walks away.
And BTW Saudi Arabia is a declared ISLAMIC KINGDOM, so ISLAAM RULES HERE, if your CHRISTIANS had a problem with it just stay off the country and enjoy your prayers in your place. If you want the TAX FREE MONEY don’t come in here and whine.
I love SAUDI ARABIA coz no one tells me “GO HOME SAND NIGGER” or calls me a “TERRORIST” here unlike in your land of the free.
@daisy:
I paid the fee to learn and the CHRISTIAN SCHOOL has no RIGHT TO MAKE ME SAY THE CHRISTIAN LORDS PRAYER.
I don’t like to or want to say the CHRISTIAN LORDs prayer, its my choice and right.
You like what ever it is the lords prayer or what ever i don’t care but i don’t want to do it and don’t you expect me to say it or agree to it. Kapish…
@daisy:
And also DAISY, these schools provide good education for the money (fee) i paid so i A MUSLIM don’t have to LISTEN TO OR PRAY THE WAY A CHRISTIAN PRAYS
Abu Abdullah,
It’s OK, I don’t want to have an argument with you about it. I’m not saying you have to do it. I just wanted to show a different perspective – all prayers go to the same place no matter the religion, language and words used. And it is possible to use these incidents as an opportunity to learn about other religions with an open mind, without sacrificing one’s own identity.
I also wanted to show that your comparison of Christian school education with this website Carol talks about is not right. The example of Christian Missionary schools in third world countries is an example of how much these countries have declined in their resources and capabilities to provide high-quality secular education to all – a void that is being filled up by the Missionaries in exchange with Christian education. On the other hand, the website in Saudi Arabia is a private website not necessarily engaged in providing services related to education or health and they have a right to close down and inform the public it’s prayer time as I said earlier. So the comparison you drew is misplaced and doesn’t place things in their right perspective.
No Christian, Muslim, Sikh, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain etc is under obligation to pray through the venue of another religion – even people like me, Radha and her child are not under obligation to pray through Christianity, but we all can find within us the space to share with other religions and learn about them – we don’t HAVE to do this, but if we can do this, it leads to an interfaith understanding. If others are not doing this, it doesn’t mean that we should become like others. But of course, if you don’t want to find this space within yourself, it’s your wish – you have a right not to do so.
Thanks for Clarifying
Also, Abu Abdullah, you should be complaining about your parents, NOT the school. Also, don’t you think it is a bit disengenuous to be complaining NOW about something that happened when you were a child that YOUR parents chose for you? Did you even care about this before you were ‘born again’?
@Lynn:
so bottom line you say the School was OK to enforce it? huh?
What do you think the reaction of American Parents be had there CHRISTIAN KID been forced to say Fatiha or other Islamic Prayers????
Let me answer that they would have been up in flames suing the school.
I studied in that BIBLE THUMPING SCHOOL FROM KINDERGARDEN TO HIGH SCHOOL through my teens
Just because injustice was done to me as kid or Teen doesn’t mean that i can’t voice opposition to it.
I would still condemn that BIBLE THUMPING CHRISTIAN SCHOOL in the strongest words no matter what.
Again here too one of your “American” Public School teacher used a muslim student as a Terrorist example.
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/teacher.saleh.choudhary.2.815503.html
Lynn: you just like other skit my direct questions about racism and evangelical enforcement. What else could i have expected from you?
I only have one question for you. Were you forced by anyone, other than your parents, to go to that school? I highly doubt that the school you went to was ‘bible thumping’ if it were you would have been doing a whole lot more than saying The Lord’s Prayer.
This post is a good example of you not having good comprehension skills (you should be complaining about THAT, not that you had to say the Lord’s Prayer)
1. American PUBLIC schools (big difference btw public and private schools in this country) barely allow for private prayer let alone ENFORCE it.
2. The parents that were upset about that Islamic ‘skit’ were upset because they thought that too much time/study was given to Islam and not enough to theirs(it’s a new thing that they are even allowed to discuss religions)
3.Parents(at least one) were upset about Fitna being shown because of the disturbing images. ‘ Pulaski County Superintendent Tim Eaton said Tuesday that the teacher’s intent was to commemorate the Sept. 11 terror attacks and discuss the dangers of extremism — “not only of Muslims but other viewpoints, too.”
‘what do you say about the racism, prejudice and hate taught in your so called westernized, modern, secular schools??? huh???’
Bottom line, know what it is you are linking to because you might just end up looking the fool when your links do not support your statements. Your own link was showing that racism, prejudice and hate are NOT tolerated in American public schools.
@Lynn:
1. American PUBLIC schools (big difference btw public and private schools in this country) barely allow for private prayer let alone ENFORCE it.
Thats great keep it up, but what goes on indian CHRISTIAN Schools is DISGUSTING. Read the word indian.
2.The parents that were upset about that Islamic ’skit’ were upset because they thought that too much time/study was given to Islam and not enough to theirs(it’s a new thing that they are even allowed to discuss religions)
Oh sure we all hope you were right as if you were the one to interview the parents, and the media is lying about them.
You said: “3. Parents(at least one) were upset about Fitna being shown because of the disturbing images. ‘ Pulaski County Superintendent Tim Eaton said Tuesday that the teacher’s intent was to commemorate the Sept. 11 terror attacks and discuss the dangers of extremism — “not only of Muslims but other viewpoints, too.” ”
As i said earlier It is public that the movie FITNA is a anti islamic movie produced by GEERT WILDERS, look him up, and yeah you expect us to commend this FUNDAMENTALIST TEACHER FOR SHOWING ANTI-ISLAMIC MOVIE, wow.
And about the racism in your schools before this is not the first time, even other have experienced it, check out this blog post of coolred, http://coolred38.blogspot.com/2008/12/jesus-loves-youbut-christiansthats.html
Now tell me that what cool red wrote is a lie??? huh.
Lynn: YOUR DOUBLE STANDARDS ARE PRETTY MUCH EVIDENT HERE
DAMN…
The last link by Abu Abdullah is THE BOMB…
This link weighs more than all the posts in this site..
‘I asked my daughter who gave them to her and did that person know she was a Muslim…she said a girl at school and..yes..pretty much everyone knew she was a Muslim…so she assumed the girl did too.’
AGAIN, you really should try to see if your point is made by what you say. This was not the SCHOOL that gave it to her daughter, it was another CHILD,
My daughter was given a Quran and hijabs and jilbabs and told that she will go to hell and suffer for eternity if she didn’t wear them. She was 12 years old, very vulnerable and easily swayed when it was a respected friend that gave her the stuff. What do you have to say about that?
Oh, sorry, that was in SCHOOL that that happened.
@ coolred38, I read your blog and I am, sorry for you. I think you should move to a more relaxed surroundings.
I tried to comment on your blog but it didn’t work.
I think it’s crazy people who act like that. Where you are they happen to be christians. Where I am they happen to be muslims. It seems to me there just is this group in humanity as a whole who are pre-disposed to being crazy. They cannot abide having anybody near who thinks different from what they do.
@ American Bedu, an expat while male aquaintance did get harrassed by the ha’yat at prayertime. Ok, in Riyad, not Jeddah. They followed him all the way home in their car, yelling at him.
@ AbuAbdullah, you are very touchy. You get insulted by every little thing. You see every little wrong that has been done to you in a magnifying glass. And you never see anything which is hurtful to others. You are exactely like the crazy people who told Coolred38 her daughter that she would go to hell for being muslim. You are no better.. And you keep going on about something you parents did to you so many years ago. You need to seek professional help.
And trust me, there was PLENTY in that ‘Saudi’ printed version of the Quran that told her how she should feel about NON Muslims. Do I need to talk to you about what that did to her relationship with her non-Muslim family? Did you saying the Lord’s Prayer make you hate and distrust your family and make you an outcast among your peers? Yeah, thought NOT so, grow the hell UP and get yourself some learning before more people judge Islam on YOUR (and your wife’s) behaviors.
@daisy,
“I am proud to say that there were a few Christian students in my class, but I topped this Bible exam”
Ha ha reminds me of school days .eons ago..i whipped them in cathchism exams too.
Although the convent school i went too enforced that only on christians/catholics, the rest of us were to go to moral science/story telling type class. But it was sooo much fun topping that exam after challenging my catholic friend.
ahh when you’re young , silly things gives you such pleasure..
So your daughter was given a Quraan and hijaabs from a another kid, you don’t like that, then GIVE IT BACK? whats the fuss about?
Atleast you can give it back but i was forced to be in those PRAYERS.
Discussing the Quraan (whether it is good or bad) is out of bounds in this blog (check with Carol), but if you want to discuss that invite me to an another blog or place i will do it, but you would sure not like it.
BTW Whats your problem if i did not want to say Lords Prayer? just answer that
“(and your wife’s) behaviors.”
Why are you pulling my wife in to this? did she leave a comment here? did i discuss her here?
You must learn civility by keeping the family out. Just keep your hands (comments) of her. You got a problem with my comments, answer me only don’t you drag my family in.
@Carol:
I may need you to moderate here.
1. Quraan/ Islaam is out of topic here
2. Families don’t get pulled in or commented about.
Note: my previous comment was directed to LYNN ONLY
@STW:
So you want me to take the blame for what i was made to go through?
It is people like lynn who seem to be egalitarian but are themselves short sighted
@ Abu Abdullah, I want you to put the blame where it belongs: at your parents who enrolled you at that school.
And if you can’t stop complaining about it: I want you to get therapy.
@STW:
Just answer whether the School is guilty or not of enforcing their form of worship? Guilty or Not Guilty?
Not Guilty, It is a private school. In countries where there are freedoms adults can choose what type of an education their children get in private schools. Your parents or someone in charge of you, paid for it and made you go there.
I second STW you need to place the blame where it belongs. It is between you and your parents. You can complain to them or can thank them for paying for an education. Stop your constant complaining and really get your issue under control. Sorry to say, you sound like a whiner.
Abu Abdullah…i lived in a very extreme area of Texas at the time of that post…even the book stores were 99% Christian theology with barely a nod in the direction of ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS teachings…so it wasnt just Islam that was getting the kick to the side…it was pretty much ALL religions…but being Muslim I only focused on what mattered to me at the time.
@Abu Abdullah
The school is not guilty as it is a christian school.
If you suffered so much from it that you are still traumatised to this day then your parents should have noticed that.
If it was the only quality school around then your parents aren’t ”guilty” either.
And you should be grateful to them you got the education which enables you to have a good job now.
But then again…while in Bahrain..it was very rare to find books on any religion other than Islam…so its only fair…right?
Carol, do they have psychologists/psychiatrists in KSA? Perhaps you know one that you can refer Abu Abdullah to?
@lynn, Saudi in US, STW
you got no words and coming down to personal attacks.
shame on you
talk objectively
Dude you bring your personal issues into the discussions here, then claim personal attack. Get a grip. If you do not want people to tell you the truth then do not share personal information. Your only issue is people are not agreeing with you.
As far as I am concerned, you brought this on yourself by complaining for days about your personal issue.. Again go complain to the people that made you go through this.
When you people complain about a Arabic Newspaper closing down during SALAAH time, for no aparrent reason why shouldn’t i complain?
@Lynn:
You are just one of those gullible’s who like to see everything bad in Saudi Arabia and muslims
while you will never admit racism amongst your christians
@Saudi in US:
People like you are called flaterers
@ Abu Abdullah, You have no sense of proportion.
You were send to an expensive school by your parents and you are not even grateful.
Please try to calm down and rethink before you go on here.
You seem to have serious personal and mental issues.
I am really starting to think you have a psycological problem.
@ Abu Abdullah,
You have an issue in understanding a complaint versus an opinion. A web site closing for prayer by the choice of the people that sponsor it is strange and laughable. However, I won’t lose sleep over it (hence just an opinion). Now when we are talking about the forced closing of shops then we are talking about limiting freedoms, since the owners of the shop do not have a choice.
In your case you have been complaining about people giving you an opinion about information you shared by your own free will. If you do not like people to talk about you, your personality, your issues, etc. then have some wisdom and do not share them on the internet.
Get a life and quit whining….
Abu Abdullah you said “When you people complain about a Arabic Newspaper closing down during SALAAH time, for no aparrent reason why shouldn’t i complain?”
Well, how about for simple discussion? Grown-ups should be able to discuss issues without getting defensive and slinging mud. Is that not possible? That’s how we all learn!! You, me, everybody!
Can you not just hear other people’s point of view and take it at that – a point of view. We do not all think the same and thank goodness for that! We do not all have the same beliefs either.
I look at this forum to read and learn about KSA and sometimes I think if I had just your and a few others rather restrictive view points I would be frightened of visiting. I am still looking forward to it so you haven’t scared me away just yet.
@saudi in US
Closing the shops is the LAW here
As per the Hadeeth and Quraan it is the job of the ruler of the land to ensure people pray Salaah.
And the King is doing his job, you are on the side line whining.
@wendy:
What about lynn pulling in Abu Abdullah’s wife???
Isn’t that acting uncivil
@Wendy
Read the comment thread, even Lynn behaved arrogantly when she pointed fingers at my family even though none of them came to this blog.
What do you say about that???
May be you must ask Lynn to learn some decency
@AbuAbdullah,
You are wrong. The only requirement is to close shops during the Friday prayer, but that is out of topic. There was an earlier topic on this blog that discussed this specific topic. Go there and show your evidence otherwise.
http://americanbedu.com/2008/01/15/would-fewer-pray/
Abu Mazen, Abu Abdullah,
I was addressing Abu Abdullah’s question and made a comment of my own about the value, or what should be the value, of discussion. I wasn’t asking you or anyone else to be decent. I’m not in a p**sing match with anyone – just here to learn.
I must say though that I’m constantly amazed at how an interesting post by Carol disintegrates into Islam bashing and as far as I can see there really is no need for it. Reminds me of a kindergarten class sometimes. Everybody needs to take a deep breath and I say that with respect for everybody on here.
@Abu mazen,
Looks like we both posted at the same time. Thanks anyway.
@Wendy
I hope that everybody includes Ms. LYNN as well
@wendy:
Glad that you are here to learn but people here other than abdullah as i read in the threads semm to be playinga p**sing match here.
At the end of the day it is obvious that people like Lynn are incensed by the very fact Saudi Arabia is a Muslim Country and everything Islaam. It is obvious from her comments and denial. And also her eagerness to question Quraan in an earlier comment
abu abdullah,
whats the fight about ?
I know I probably shouldn’t say this but my guess is that I won’t find a Philosopher’s Cafe in KSA??
YQ:
Well if you would follow the thread, Lynn condones imposing Chrisitian Prayer rituals on Muslim kids and also throws mud at my wife. Go ahead read her uncivil comments
Abu Abdullah !!
Its okay man chill.. That is her opinion and she aint incharge of any school so its all good
.
Well I did not get why your wife was included LOL but its okay, forget it. forgive and forget. we have a bigger duty as a Muslim than proving A point in this blog.
Actions buddy actions.. words dont count
It is really hopeless to discuss anything here. Some people are jut so unbelievably blinded and stupid that there is no discussion possible.
I mean the salafis here, endless complaining about ancient ”wrongs” which they had to ”suffer”. And endless, brainless extolling of the virtues of Saudi Arabia, and the evils of the ”west”…
There is no discussion possible.
Discussion requires two parties of at least moderate intelligence. Not one sentient party, and one repeating robot. It’s hopeless. I’m keeping out of this thread.
@aafke:
And you are not one of those parties.
Aafke,
LOL @ salafi part
…
now that is generalization..
abu abdullah,
its all good. stop fighting dude… agree to what is right and disagree to what is wrong..
forcing religion is not the right thing to do. neither is shutting down the website ( personal opinion ). why would u wanna shut down a website ?? tht wont encourage ppl to pray, it wud be more like that ugly “site is blocked” page that pops out..
I say Generalization As usual
I don’t know what makes Aafke think i am a Salafi.
And just to set the records straight, so that people don’t think Islam is a really stupid religion:
There is no rule that those in power should force shops to be closed and whip people to prayer. (Only on Friday do shops need to be closed.)
On the contrary, the quran is clear on everybodies personal responsibillity.
And about the intention (niyah); if you pray and do it for the wrong reasons your prayer is null and void.
And intention is something only God can see: other people can’t see it.
And that’s why people should not interfere with other people: they cannot know other’s intentions.
Islam is clear that what you do, think or intend is between you and God and no human can have anything to do with it.
Unfortunately in Saudi Arabia they don’t read anymore apparently, and they completely forgot about all this.
As they forgot about many other things in the quran.
And you can see from the indoctrinated salafi’s on this blog what happens to the brain, it gets shut off completely. You only get endless boring comments and cherrypicked quotes from the hadith, and if you dare to disagree they freak out completely.
As they do here.
@aafke:
As if you don’t freak out and call people names as in other posts, going below all levels of decency
I also asked you questions about the hijaab post and you conveniently left it. You are just a racist like the others in this blog.
And about the closing down the shops Salaah has to be Enforced by the Ruler of the land which is HRH King Abdullah and he is doing his job.
We have solid backing for this in the hadeeth, prove your point by hadeeth or Quraan?
You
Abu Abdullah
your mistake is that you reply back !!
@YQ:
I agree with you hear, i should have realized these people don’t reason.
thats not the reason why i said that !!
Abu Mazen,
I do not LIKE to see everything bad about KSA but, the more I learn about it, I must admit it is very difficult to find something that I DO like about it (MY opinion and I AM entitled to it). I don’t give one iota of a crap what it is like there as long as it keeps to itself and keeps it’s extremist ideology out of MY world. So, It’s not like I’m on some mission to destroy it but I’m sure Allah has it protected anyway. I read various blogs so that I can have an educated view of the world and not have to strictly rely on what might be in newspapers or any other single source. As far as how I feel about Islam or Muslims, I must say it certainly does not help to me have a favorable opinion when ignorants like Abu Abdullah keep arguing when they don’t even seem to have basic comprehension skills.
Another thing, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for me to see racism in MY Christians when I don’t even have any as I am not a Christian. So sorry, you’ll have to take your ‘Crusades’ argument somewhere else.
And Abu Abdullah, I did not throw mud on your wife, YOU did that when you married her in the manner that you did.
@Lynn:
Now you have crossed your limit in pulling my personal life here.
I never discussed my family life here and you have no right what so ever to discuss that or ask me that.
And I see no mistake in what i did.
@Lynn
You just proved what kinda class you come from from your last line about me.
Geez Abdullah, even showing a Anti Muslim Film FITNA in a US School is not a racist thing to do???
@Lynn: In what world are you living in? Showing Racist films is absolutely condemnable to kids
And BTW by commenting on Abduallah personal life you have proved to be a damned low life
Abu Abdullah , Please excuse me if that was not you that interviewed with ‘Chiara’ and put your life out there for all to know about. In MY opinion (remember I AM entitled to one), THAT Abu Abdullah seemed to lack integrity and showed nothing but disrespect for everyone involved (including himself and his new bride) when he got married in secret as he did. Again, I am soooo very sorry if that was a different Abu Abdullah.
I agree 100% that showing racist ANYthing (including Wahabi/Salafi interpretations of the Quran) to impressionable young children IS absolutely condemnable! That is why I agree with the school that condemned that teacher for doing it BUT that does not excuse ANYone to take that out of context and accuse the ‘American School System’ of racism for showing it when it was an individual teacher that showed PORTIONS of it along with other things in the context of teaching about extremism and it’s dangers. Also the teacher was reprimanded for it. So I stand with my argument that it did not fit the context in which it was posted.
And BTW, I thought that I had shown my ‘true colors’ a long time ago anyway so what in the world is all the surprise about? LOL
Okay….I was away for the computer for the day and come back to what almost sounds like back in elementary school when someone shouts “FOOD FIGHT!”
Let’s get back on track here. Sure, it is okay to agree to disagree but it is NOT okay to take personal attacks…that is how discussions deteriorate, no one is happy and the words just start to lose their value.
Now I would be curious after reading all the comments that have arisen during my absence…one thing I did not see answered but only if Abu Abdullah cares to share…I want to know what was the reasoning of your parents to send you to a private Christian school? I am going on the premise that your parents are muslim as yourself. What did they hope for you to gain by attending that school and do you feel your parents aspirations were recognized?
Were your parents aware that this school had the policy that it did of reciting prayer? Did you tell your parents that you did not like or agree with their policy? And I do wonder whether if the subject were brought up, if the school would have allowed you to be excused during those times of prayer?
Some of my own Saudi family while out of the Kingdom has attended Catholic school due to the curriculum offered but it was agreed and arranged that during any studies related to the Catholic church or prayer that the non-Catholics had either their own opportunities to pray or to attend other classes or study period instead.
Now….while all the heated debate was taking place here I have spent the entire day with my Grandson. He turned one year old today and we did not want to miss a single minute of the day. Since it was a beautiful day in North Carolina, USA where my Grandson lives we spent several hours out on my son’s boat on Lake Norman. My Grandson loved riding in the boat and feeling the wind ruffle through his hair. We rode to an island which was deserted except for us and had a lovely sandy beach. We pulled ashore and let him run in the water (supervised) and then walk in the soft sand. Before leaving I wrote everyone’s name in the sand in arabic and also wrote a Happy Birthday greeting for him too.
Remember…sometimes you have to take a time out and just enjoy the simple pleasures of life!
Holy smokes! Has everyone gone barking mad? Everyone needs to take a deep breath and calm down.
Closing the website for prayer seems to be a bit over the top… After all there are Muslims in all parts of the world who might like to partake in the sight when in fact it is not prayer time for them wherever they may be. IF the person running the sight needs the personal time to pray and must close down the sight for that reason that makes sense…if however, it is automated then I don’t see the point really.
@Abu Abdullah…
As i read your comments I was feeling rather sad about your school experience. Your parents did the best that they could I am sure by choosing the school for you and as their child I am sure felt no harm would come to you as a result of having to attend a Christian school. They obviously felt that they were doing the right thing by you to give you that opportunity which no doubt cost them money. I would think that you could at least understand it from that perspective. What a lost opportunity to enjoy your school years and make friends and learn about people different than you.
If you went to a Christian school or your parents sent you there then a certain amount of Christian prayers etc are to be expected to go along with that.
It is a private school…that means they get make the rules. My daughter attends a private school…a nondenominational(non religious), secular one. There are many faiths represented by the student body…Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and I am sure some other faiths that I am unaware of. There are a few things about the school that I don’t love or agree with. However, I KNEW that going in and chose the school for my daughter anyway despite the few issues I had. I feel she is getting the best education possible…so I am willing to work with the things I don’t like.
I have to disagree with you when you say that you paid money for the education and they had no right to push that on you…your parents knew that the school had a religious thrust and that you would be required to participate. by putting you in that school they agreed to that. You can’t accept the package deal and then try to throw away part of the package…it comes as is.
I guess the reverse would be if I lived in KSA and enrolled my daughter in school there. No doubt there would be things either cultural or religious that would be unfamiliar and uncomfortable to me that I might not like. But for heavens sake I would be enrolling her in a Saudi school…that is to be expected!
@American Bedu
I was typing and posted before I saw your post…sorry.
@Abu Abdullah…
I don’t know how old you are but it is my experience that Carol is right. Nowadays the schools ahve relaxed a bit(at least the Catholic ones I believe) more often than not will make accommodations for the nonchristian kids and not require them to participate in the religious functions.
Carol,
Please read my two comments above to get the answer to your questions. Non-Christian parents who have the money to afford an expensive education in this part of the world, prefer to send their children to Christian Missionary schools because in most cities, these are practically the best schools available here – Christian education apart, they have very high standards of education in other subjects and they focus on the overall personality development of the students. In fact, these schools command a lot of prestige in the society and any parents who have the money and who wish their children’s welfare, would really like to send their children there – in terms of quality of education, there is really no alternative to these schools. That’s why I mentioned the predicament of the education in the Third World – government doesn’t have the resources to open secular schools of comparable standards and the best choice that is available to the parents are the Missionary schools – called Convent schools here.
Because these are Missinary schools, it goes without saying that Christian education would be imparted in them apart from the regular curriculum – ALL parents know this and this is NOT NEGOTIABLE with the school – if you want to send your child to that school, be prepared that the child goes through the experience of Christianity imparted there regardless of his/her own religious background.
In fact, the high costs I mentioned are NOT in lieu of the good education as Abu Abdullah thinks – these schools are liberally funded by the churches in Europe and North America. For the Christian children in these schools, this same expensive education is free. These high expenses are meant for the parents who are not Christians – if only we converted and became Christians, we could get this education free, but as I said, I never saw anyone converting in my school life – no one wants to converts and parents would rather like to pay high fees than convert themselves or their child – that’s how these schools cater to the well-off sections of the society – common people can’t afford these schools.
Having said all this, as both Radha and I have testified, we – and we are the norm rather than exceptions (Abu Abdullah seems to be an unusual product of these schools) didn’t mind going through the experience of Christianity, most children and their parents don’t mind, in fact I never saw any child in my school days complaining about all this – and I had classmates from all religions in my various schools. Rather, when we were required to pass the Bible exam, we took it as a challenge and beat our Christian classmates in the exam!
I really don’t want to make a personal comment – please excuse me for this, but going by the kind of ideas Abu Abdullah holds about religion and religiosity, his style of rhetoric, his comprehension ability and the kind of English language he uses – I have serious doubts that he has received an elite-class Missionary School education for 12 years – may be he went there for a short period. The way Radha and I argue our case is a better example of the kind of students these schools produce. But of course, there are exceptions to every norm.
Carol,
Happy belated birthday to your grandson! Perhaps you can do a post on his Birthday celebration!!
Radha,
Yes, and it was fun listening to all those stories from the Bible too! Especially when they used beautiful illustration material to tell the stories.
@Carol:
First of all i hate to see Lynn talking about my Wife here, if she could shut up it would be really great. I never discussed my wife here in your blog.
I had an interview else where, if she wants to throw mud at me about my personal life she can throw it in the other blog. May be you must specifically tell that to her.
That was cheap shot
I think splashing water at one another is a better revenge
..
..
And more fun
@YQ:
Better than slandering ones personal life
@Carol:
Even though i am pretty new here, the very fact Lynn is allowed to make comments on Abdullah’s wife show that your moderation standards are biased and poor.
‘Better than slandering ones personal life’
You mean like calling people ‘racist’ because they do not agree with you or because you lack basic comprehension skills?
OK here’s my final comment to you Abu Abdullah
“Yo mama!’
Now, If I were you, I would leave this blog and NEVER come back!! Too bad there aren’t any doors to slam on your way out! lol Remember,like you said to YQ, it’s just ‘FITNA’ anyway.
Carol. OMG he’s a year old already? I’m so glad you were able to spend the day with him. So precious, and I’m sure a very welcome diversion from your purpose in being here in the US. Suck up every bit of joy where you can find it!
So you want me out of this blog and never come back.
So keep trying your stupid ways of silencing me.
So go on keep bitchin’
I will stay here and see your end through.
You are a disgusting creature on this blog
When you are out of steam, you openly acknowledge to attack peoples families.
I could also go down and say yo mama at you.
But i know now for sure your MAMA brought you up as a trash as you are now
@Lynn
You have degraded yourself to the lowest point by commenting like a 12 year old school bully.
So you want your commentators who prove you wrong to get out of this post.
Keep trying lady you wont be successfull.
You are just a cheap….. fill in the blanks…
Aafke said
“Discussion requires two parties of at least moderate intelligence.”
Exactly, you have so far been unable to have a civilised discussion here with a few quite intelligent people.
“Not one sentient party, and one repeating robot. It’s hopeless. I’m keeping out of this thread.”
No, of course not, the only way you can hold a discussion is with other robots who repeat what YOU say and think. If anyone even dares to disagree with anything you say, you are ever ready to unleash your pirate tongue and expose your pea brain, all at the same time.
Sorry hon, I saw it fit to share my views, you know, in line of freedom of speech. Darn, I forgot this freedom of speech is reserved only for you and the like minded. But what the heck, I’ll try my luck.
Carol, happy birthday to your grandson. I remember when he was born. Hard to believe it’s been a year since Jacob (I think that’s his name) was born. How nice that you were in NC yesterday. It was a great day here for sure! Wish I could say the same for the rest of the week.
marshmallow, you who hide cowardly behind a pseudonym, if you have a problem with me, try to work up the courage and do it on my own blog, where I will be happy to cut you up in pieces, instead of clogging up Bedu’s blog with your (not humourous) trash.
Abu Mazen,
I’m still waiting for someone to prove me wrong! LOL
Wait a minute…prove me wrong about what exactly? That Abu Abdullah should not be upset at the school that his parents willingly chose to send him to?
Also, I really could not have degraded myself any lower than I already was anyway. I mean with me being American and non Muslim and all the garbage that goes along with THAT! Y’all crack me up!
@Aafke:
oooh we are all scared!!!
lol
you are too funny, may be you can work in a asylum to keep inmates in order
back to the topic, i think it’s not a great idea to shut down business so many times in a day . especially one that doesn’t require you to hang around manually working it during prayer time.
Having said that i woudn’t mind having mandated breaks 3-4 times a day at all, I’m sure my co-workers would jump with joy if we instituted this here. too bad for the patients though.
While I do agree that it is not appropriate to post inappropriate comments about anyone’s personal life at the same time, if one puts personal data out there, then there is the high risk of it becoming public and traveling outside of where it may have been originally posted. I’ve experienced this myself as have many regular bloggers. It is not right and something we just deal with.
Giving everyone benefit here of being responsible and able to discuss issues reasonably, I request this thread be kept on topic. Regardless of ones belief we all know better than to squabble like kids.
And back to subject, I was speaking to an individual here in NC and although not muslim wished that more people of every faith would take those time outs each day for prayer the same way as the Islamic faith.
I still think Jerry’s suggestion was the best of modifying the software program for the newspaper which would have the newspaper unavailable to the reader regardless of where they are from if it is prayer time in their part of the world.
I do not agree Bedu
Now this is a comparitively unimportant site and as such won’t affect a lot of people, but looking at the act itself, I think it’s selfrighteous, and showing off: how pious they are, how superior… It gives me a distinct feeling of ”we are better than the rest because we close our site at prayertime”
So what about sites closing for prayertime.
Prayertime is arbitrary at best, even if you manage to adjust it to the particular place your visitors come from.
You have a window for prayer of several hours and prayer doesn’t take that long. Everybody prays if and when they wish and have the opportunity. Meanwhile before and after they might want to check the internet for news.
So why should the site be closed at all?
I find it another example of distrust, Of pronouncing people guilty without cause: They take it for granted that you don’t keep to your prayers. They take it for granted that you do not wish to pray. So therefore you need to be forced to pray (a forced prayer has no value to god)
They will never believe that you truly believe in the pillar of prayer and will pray of your own account, and by your own wish, make sure you do each prayer in the timeslot allowed for it.
That is what irritates me about this affected pretencious closing of the site. It smacks of supercilliousness, of pride and conceit and utter distrust in everybody else.
It is a valid point that the prayer times are not exact. The hadith/Sunnah shows us that for every prayer time there is a lengthy period for which prayer is acceptable.
So, if the site choose to shut down for the entire length of these acceptable periods they’d find that their site was closed for a large portion of the day.
This also doesn’t address the voluntary nature of Islam where someone’s intention is VERY important. This is one of the problems at the core of Saudi. If you FORCE someone to be religiously observent, what reward is in it for them when they are being forced to do something they wouldnt do otherwise?
As a convert to Islam I find the idea of forcing people to follow Islam hurts the Muslim community itself, especially when you see many of these Muslims who are forced to be observent, who head to the West, or places like Lebanon, and go nuts! In an open and free society you might have people who choose not to be observent, at the same time at least you save them from the serious sin of hypocrisy and start to develope a normal society where honesty and truth is respected not just appearances.
@Abu Sinan,
So what can we do to rectify this “negative situation” as you claim?
I don’t think it is a bad idea to have a reminder one way or another that it is time to pray. But of course it is then up to the individuals and that they pray for the right intentions rather than go through the motions.
@Abu Abdullah,
It isnt me claiming, it is an observation made by citizens of Saudi and the Middle East. All I am doing is passing it on because, with my experience in the Middle East, I agree with it.
As to what “we” (who do you mean when you say we?) can do about it, I suggest following Islam a bit more closely. Lets not care what society thinks, lets not worry about appearances, let’s worry about what is REAL and what is TRUE.
It starts from the top down. When you get Saudi leaders saying “Bismillah” to the cameras and reporters as they head to Europe to gamble, drink and womanise, it sets an example that says “fake religiousity” is a quality to be respected.
As individual people we should demand that the people around are honest in who they are and what they do. If they dont pray…….then they dont pray. Why make them lie about it or act like they do?
Islam is all about intentions and forcing people to do things they dont want to do doesnt benefit anyone and actually sets up a situation where people are going to lie and be decietful.
Lets get the situation to where honesty is valued more than hypocrisy.
@bedu:
Suppose say i own mall and all the shops in it, do i have the right to close the shops during salaah time?
If i own it i do what i want with it. isn’t it?
same way it goes back to the school argument.
People here said the school has the right to make me pray the lords prayer, so same way i close my shops when i want to? If i shouldn’t why not?
@Abu Abdallah,
There are shops here in the USA that close during Friday prayers. I dont think anyone, certainly not myself, has an issue what individuals do with their own places.
In Saudi you dont have a choice do you? Can you choose to stay open during prayers? What if you have some people who pray first and keep the store open and then others who prayer later? All within the time limits set within the Sunnah and Hadith!
As to anyone being forced to pray, if you had an option to NOT attend the school then you were NOT forced to pray. You could have left. If you were forced to attend that school by the law and then forced to pray you’d have a point.
In Saudi one is FORCED to pray. Do you deny that religious policeman will sometimes drag young men into the mosque during prayer times? I have heard of this done MANY times, so much so that some will actually HIDE from the religious policeman.
I have also heard of religious policeman actually pulling young men off the street and physically shaving their heads because they didnt agree to their haircuts. This happened to the husband of my SIL once.
There is no choice in such a system and I think it is fundmentally unIslamic.
Someone, by definition, cannot be forced to do something when they had a choice.
Seems there are still serious comprehension issues here Abu Abdullah. No one is trying to say that these stores or websites do not have the ‘right’ to do as they want. Carol’s question (last sentences of this post) asked ‘What is your opinion on this gesture? Is it noble? Is it backwards? Does it enhance or negate the image of Saudi Arabia?’
Consensus seems to be that it NEGATES the image of KSA and violates sense, reason and the intent of the religion but, at the same time. no one cares if they choose to do it because no one is forced to visit their website. It just makes them look ridiculous considering that it might not be prayer time for the person who might be in another country. When a religious person acts or talks ridiculous it DOES have a negative affect on outsiders’ perception of the religion being practiced. TRUST me!
You seem so very angry, maybe you should try meditation or massage therapy since Islam doesn’t seem to be enough for you to find that inner peace we all strive for.
@Abu Sinan:
If i happen to have a shop in your USA, i would still close my shop for every salaah. Now will i be allowed to do that in your country?
@Lynn:
I thought you wanted Abu Abdullah to leave this post… Looks like the lady got chilled down
Abu Abdullah,
I realize your question about closing a shop in the USA was not directed at me but in North America we have the freedom to run our businesses how we choose so if we wanted to close for some reason we would just be able to close.
What do shops in the US have to do with this post? Hmmm??
But the answer is YES, if you own a shop in the US you can do anything at all that you want with it. You can shut it down every 15 minutes or only open for 1 hour a day or 1 day a week or anything you want. It is YOUR shop, if people don’t like it, they can go somewhere else. If your shop is the ONLY one like it then they will have to come when you have it open or do without. You see it is all very simple this whole ‘freedom’ thing.
@Abu Abdullah,
You could do that in the USA, yes, although you’d probably go out of business. Most Muslim shops here close for the Friday prayer only. This is in keeping with the Sunnah for congregational prayer.
There is NO requirement in Islam to pray all prayers at the same exact time. It is actually AGAINST the Sunnah to require that all prayers be said at the same time since the Prophet (PBUH) gave a wide limit for the various prayers.
It would be a GRAVE sin to make something haram that God has allowed.
Anyway, the main Halal shop in our area closes for Friday prayers and airs the adhan for the rest of the prayers and offers facilities for wudu and prayer.
THAT is in keeping with the Sunnah, closing at one set time when the Prophet allow allowed a lengthy time in which to pray would be against the Sunnah.
Your method would actually be unIslamic especially if you forced your Muslim employees to pray at one time when the religion grants a wide range of times.
In your zeal you are actually going against Islam.
@Abu Abdullah,
I live in the US and there are no laws that will force you to open during prayer time. As a business owner you are free to manage your business anyway you want and even make unwise decisions like be uncompetitive by closing at odd times.
You are arguing for the sake of arguing here.
@ Saudi in the US
Ok…well thats great, but then what is YOUR point? I’m saying the newspaper company has the right to shut down their site during salaah time. What on earth does that have to business owners in the USA???
@ Abu Sinan
Are you not aware that during the time of the prophet salallahu alayhi wa salaam, people closed their shops, etc and stopped working when the adhan was announced, to go for prayer? And who often led these salaahs? The prophet (pbuh). THAT is sunnah. Also according to sunnah it is prefferable for males to congregate for the salaahs, not only the jummah salaah. How can they do salaah in congregation if everyone just does it whenever???
Wow…that website must have some stellar content on it to generate all this controversy. Otherwise…who cares if it shuts down for a period of time every day? On to the next website…or browsing as the term implies.
btw too many people on this blog take too many post and comments waaaay too personal.
Lol, oh yes Aafke I’m very scared. Actually I glanced at your trashy blog and wouldn’t bother reading carefully let alone commenting, sorry there’s just not enough substance to it if any (my personal opinion which according to your standards I’m entitled to lol).
But this blog I actually like, aside from a few posts, so any comment directed at you was only serving you the same dish you serve to others. Although I’m sure my comments were quite a bit more in taste than yours. I must admit though, your rants are quite amusing and only a reflection on you.
As for not using my real name, why should I? Would it make you “know” me any better? LOL. Funny girl.
@AbuAbdulah,
Look at my comment regarding the newspaper earlier. Yes they have the right to close, but we also have the right to say that is a strange decision.
Regarding Sunnah, I hope you understand that Sunnah is not a requirement. A person can choose to follow it or not. Obviously if you follow Sunnah you get more rewards. The point is Islam does not ask for enforcing Sunnah. So forcing people to close for prayers (except Friday) is an invention, but you insist that it is a requirement. Also, you do not like to be called Salafi, which is fair. However, all your arguments follow the standard Salafi positions. I have not seen any deviation from that.
@Abu Abdullah,
The prophet isnt here anymore, so people cannot close their businesses to go pray with the prophet. What we CAN do is to follow his Sunnah and Hadith. In these hadith they make it VERY clear that there are a wide range of times in which people can make prayers.
It is prefered for males to pray in congregation. What does that have to do with everyone being forced to pray at a certain time? Certainly one group of men can pray at one time and another group pray at different times, all within the times specified by the prophet!
At my work we have hundreds of Muslim workers spread in between numerous buildings. Yep, here in the USA. So we have many different groups of Muslims who meet and pray every pray at slightly different times. This is in keeping with the Sunnah.
What would be against the Sunnah and the prophet would be to force everyone to come and pray at a time and place of someone else’s chosing.
So it is VERY clear that men can pray in conregation and every “does what they want”.
You might not be able to follow the Sunnah unless you are forced to do so, but other people do so willingly and on their own.
Just because you cannot follow the deen without being forced do not try to force the rest of us who have no such disability.
@Saudi in the USA,
I wasnt aware he didnt like to be called Salafi. All of his point and ideas are standard Salafi fare. I would wonder in what ways he differs from the Salafi?
As Tariq Ramadan points out, there are six different sub-divisions within Islam, but I havent seen “Abu Abdallah” deviate from any of them.
Okay everyone…don’t make the dialogue personal! There really is no need to do so.
Basically I find the idea of a website automatically shutting down for prayer to be a novel invent and interesting use of merging internet technology with religious custom, hence why I chose to post such an article.
So the practice of the Hail website may enhance Saudis image to some and especially those who are muslim and appreciate the reminder that it is time to pray in Hail and others who are not muslim or happen to like reading the Hail online paper from outside of the Kingdom, may view it as a detraction.
For one why I THINK ((( I THINK ))) shutting down a website wouldn’t make any sense is cuz
you have to BE THERE physically to perform the prayer and since its a simple fact that one cannot be at 2 places at the same time therefore if s/he is alone then the store MIGHT have to be closed cuz there are chances of theft. But with a website, what are the chances of thefts? it is not like when they come back to their chairs they track every single move on the website. Who knows !! lol
Again this is just a personal view I havent heard their reasoning behind this. MAYBE they do have to sit behind the PC every now and then.
But no one has any rights to attack them with the tag of “Extremism”.
I agree Y Q in that electing to shut down a website for the local prayer times where the website is hosted does not equate to extremism.
Maybe a pop up would do ? That it is prayer time.
This merged with Jerry’s idea of adjusting with every visitor’s time zone would do enough.
Including a Hadith mentioning the importance of Praying would do.
too many “would do”s…
maybe…but they all make sense!
@YQ
i like the idea of putting a pop up reminder indicating prayer time…If the idea is to shut down to remind people. That way, those who need to pray where they are in the right time can do so and others can continue to take advantage of the site!
Good solution.
[...] the largest supermarket chains; the smallest start-up company to the biggest banks; and err… an online newspaper as well. There are even times when the traffic is at an all-time low during prayers. More about this can be [...]