Why is it Considered OK for Saudi Men to Speak Inappropriately?

e_question-man

American Bedu note:  I had a different image when this post was first published on the blog.  However due to the extremely strong emotions which the combination of the image and the written words created, I have chosen to replace the original image.  My intent is never to deliberately offend and I will be the first to acknowledge that sometimes I will choose contrasts between the images and words to emphasis a point.

I recently had a discussion with some single expat women who are in the Kingdom.  Each of these women are professionals, well-traveled, educated and cognizant as well as respectful of the customs and traditions of Saudi Arabia.  Yet each of those women had her own experience to share in how she was asked inappropriate questions by a Saudi male.  And she was asked these questions most of the time in the workplace.  For some reason there are a number of  Saudi men who seem to have a double-standard in what they are comfortable in asking a Western woman yet would likely not dare to ask a Saudi or Arab woman.

Examples of questions these women have been asked include:

  • If I were single would you date me?
  • Did you sleep with him?
  • Do you want to sleep with him?
  • Are you a virgin?
  • How many relationships have you had?
  • Will you have an affair with me?
  • Can I kiss you?
  • Can I just touch your hair?

And then expat women may also be in conversations with Saudi women.  Again, the expat woman may be asked questions that are not typical but at least not as insulting or lewdly insinuating as the ones asked by the men.  The women typically want to know:

  • Are you married?
  • Do you have a boyfriend?
  • Where do you work?
  • How much money do you make?
  • Where do you live?
  • What is your rent?

In regards to the questions asked by the men, if an expat woman has such an experience, my advice to her is to very clearly tell him that is an inappropriate question, especially from someone who is viewed as a respectable and honorable man.  I’d probably even go so far as to remind him I’m sure he would not ask a Saudi woman such a question and also expect to be shown respect.  In no case should a woman feel intimidated to respond firmly to the Saudi.

With the women, my tendency would be more gentle in either answering some of the questions and politely saying I was not comfortable to answer others.

What experiences have others had and how did they handle them?

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141 Responses

  1. Dear American Bedu..
    i’ve heard that this happens a lot, but it is due to lack of cultural considerations….
    for instance, in KSA, it is ok to ask a woman if she’s married or not…it is ok to ask about a co-worker’s monthly payment…..
    another reason is what the American movies have implanted in our heads about the american women…

    Many american movies show American women as whores….. i am truly sorry to say this….but in some movies and soap operas I’ve heard the most inappropriate and dirtiest conversations (and they are not porno …they are programs on national TV!)

    As an educated woman who have lived in America for several years, I know that the media (everywhere) gives a very false or exaggerated image of life…but some young or not well educated people in my country would not think this way when they watch American movies or programs….
    They DO have very dirty thoughts about american women because they are immersed in the world of Hollywood fantasies …

    thanks for this post!

  2. @Carol, One of the funniest stories was watching a newly engaged Saudi/Expat couple waiting in line for a movie years ago in the States way across town from where we all lived. We were all waiting outside and it was a chilly Autumn night and it began to drizzle.

    Saudi says to her, “Let’s leave.”
    Her Reply: We drove 45 min to get here, and we’ve only been here 5 min. Let’s stay.
    Saudi: I SAID, Let’s leave! NOW!!! and he begins to gently drag her out of the line.
    Her Reply: No, let’s just wait for 5 more minutes, honey….as she gets back into line. (typical American)
    Saudi: Listen, only one can drive this ship, and it can’t have two captains!
    Her Reply: Then, my dear, you are with me on the Titanic and we’re about to go down!
    ——————————
    Another Saudi/expat couple out for their first meal.
    She’s not hungry, but not used to going out as she’s from a big family. He orders the filet and a potato, she orders the duck, thinking it will be small….and she’s already had dinner earlier with friends in her Sorority.
    The dinner comes and she is SHOCKED to see a half of a duck in front of her…and nibbles a few bites. He eats all of his steak. The waiter comes over to the table and speaks to the woman and walks away. He then returns with a long bag with a ‘hotdog’ dog on it.
    As they are leaving the restaurant, he says to her, “Can I ask you a personal question?
    Her reply: Well, I don’t know you very well, it depends on what you want to know.
    He says, “Why was that man speaking to you about and WHAT is in THAT bag?”
    She turns the bag so the dog is hiding on the bottom side….and doesn’t quite know what to reply.
    He yells, “Don’t tell me it’s that DUCK! Don’t tell me you are taking that duck out of the restaurant!”
    She says, “Ok, I won’t tell you,”
    He says, “Oh my gosh, did anyone see you? How embarrassing!” That is the worst thing anyone could do.
    And she says, “But it’s for Snoopy!||”
    He says, Don’t you ever do that again….NEVER take food home….ever again or we won’t go out anymore.
    After arriving back at her home, the woman tells me later that she saw her father cutting up the duck as her fiance is walking out the front door. (This is the first time he met her father after the engagement.)
    She says to her father, “That’s sweet of you to cut up the duck for the dog.”
    Father replies, “Dog HELL, This is for ME!!!”

  3. @Maha – I do agree with your observations on how the image of an American woman is grossly exaggerated…same as how Saudi (as illustrated by the image I chose) is also grossly exaggerated.

    Rose CG – there is no doubt you could write a very entertaining book based on the various observations and stories of Saudi-expat couples!

  4. When looking at the title of today’s selection, I actually must tell you that my experience was quite different. My fiance as well as all of his friends always opened and closed the doors for me, insisted on paying for lunch and movies whenever we went out, and they were always quite charming. My father approved from day one and even asked him if he had any other brothers because he had a few more daughters other than me!

  5. @Rose CG – the women who spoke to me on these issues are women who were already in Saudi.

  6. OMG. ***taking deep breath***

    I can’t read the arabic so I’m not sure who I am responding to, but anyways. That FIRST comment up there?! REALLY? Do you really expect us to believe that Saudi men are so stupid that they believe “based on American movies” that most American women are whores, thus such invasive, rude and vulgar questions are okay? That is like if I watch a whole bunch of Bollywood movies and then go to an Indian restaurant and ask the owner something like “c’mon now, bhangra time! Aren’t you people supposed to start dancing in the aisles while crooning over a lost lover from your past?”. Uh, puhleeze! That is the poorest excuse in the book.. If it’s true and Saudi men are REALLY basing their perceptions off of MOVIES, then KSA society needs WAY, WAY more work than I could have ever imagined………..

    I can’t believe grown men are really that asinine and immature. Funny this crap is coming from MUSLIM men…..I can’t imagine ONE American, non-Muslim man who I know, that would EVER stoop to such a low. Imagine that! Non Muslim, American men with better manners and morals than MUSLIMS.

  7. Stone age…….you can not fix stupid. Its forever.

  8. Ive been asked a boat load of what I consider inappropriate questions by Arabs…but that includes the women as well. Doesnt really seem to be an off limits topic for them. When my sister came to visit me last summer..she was constantly saying…thats none of your business…but they were not put off…just asked other ones. LOL…you get use to it…sort of.

    The men are something else tho. Considering how much they “protect” their women…seems rather hypocritical to not seem shy about asking us those sorts of things.

    btw Carol…those cartoons are terrible.

  9. It is hard to reconcile with this being a “cultural issue” as some of the things they ask are things they’d never ask another Arab. If it was just things they talk about with other Arabs it would be fine, but when they ask things outside of their own cultural norms then you start to think it is because they think low of you or your culture.

    Coming from a German background I tend to be very private about personal things until I get to know someone and would never ask a stranger personal questions.

    Being an American man married to a Saudi woman both my wife and I have gotten some VERY inappropriate questions that the people asking would NEVER have considered asking otherwise.

  10. .

  11. This is not “Arab culture.” These men think these educated, working, single women from another culture are “available” and there is no fear of retribution from their families since they are “outsiders.” You know, gaining access to “other’s” women symbolises a kind of conquest in traditional societies, while they protect and don’t allow others access to their own women. That’s why they don’t ask such questions from their own women and show their true nature while talking to foreign women.

  12. AMERICAN RAPE STATISTICS
    Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.

    In 1995, 354,670 women were the victims of a rape or sexual assault. (NationalCrime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.)

    Over the last two years, more than 787,000 women were the victim of a rape or sexual assault. (National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S.Department of Justice, 1996.)

    The FBI estimates that 72 of every 100,000 females in the United States wereraped last year. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Statistics, 1996.)

    SILENT VICTIMS :

    One of the most startling aspects of sex crimes is how many go unreported. The most common reasons given by women for not reporting these crimes are the belief that it is a private or personal matter and the fear of reprisal from the assailant.

    Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994)

    The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.

    In 1994-1995, only 251,560 rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials — less than one in every three. (National Crime Victimization Survey, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.)

    An overwhelming majority of rape service agencies believe that public education about rape, and expanded counseling and advocacy services for rape victims, would be effective in increasing the willingness of victims to report rapes to the police. (Rape in America, 1992, National Victim Center with Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center.)

    LIVING IN FEAR :

    According to the U.S. Department of Justice: (All statistics are taken from: Violenceagainst Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)

    One of every four rapes take place in a public area or in a parking garage.

    31% of female victims reported that the offender was a stranger.

    68% of rapes occur between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.

    At least 45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

    In 29% of rapes, the offender used a weapon.

    In 47% of rapes, the victim sustained injuries other than rape injuries.

    75% of female rape victims require medical care after the attack.

    NOT JUST A FAMILY MATTER :

    Family violence and abuse are among the most prevalent forms of interpersonal violence against women and young children — both boys and girls. The sexual abuse of a child should never be “just a family matter,” but many children are afraid to report an incident to the police because the abusers are too often a family friend or relative.

    Approximately one-third of all juvenile victims of sexual abuse cases are children younger than 6 years of age. (Violence and the Family, Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family, 1996.)

    According to the Justice Department, one in two rape victims are under age 18; one in six are under age 12. (Child Rape Victims, 1992. U.S. Department of Justice.)

    FACE OF AMERICA :

    About 81% of rape victims are white; 18% are black; 1% are of other races. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)

    About half of all rape victims are in the lowest third of income distribution; half are in the upper two-thirds. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)

    There were 71 forcible rapes per 100,000 females reported to United States law enforcement agencies in 1996. 2

    Data from the National Women’s Study, a longitudinal telephone survey of a national household probability sample of women at least 18 years of age, show 683,000 women forcibly raped each year and that 84% of rape victims did not report the offense to the police.3

    Using Uniform Crime Report data for 1994 and 1995, the Bureau of Justice Statistics found that of rape victims who reported the offense to law enforcement, about 40% were under the age of 18, and 15% were younger than 12.4

    In a national survey 27.7% of college women reported a sexual experience since the age of fourteen that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape, and 7.7% of college men reported perpetrating aggressive behavior which met the legal definition of rape.5

    The National Crime Victimization Survey indicates that for 1992-1993, 92% of rapes were committed by known assailants.1 About half of all rapes and sexual assaults against women are committed by friends and acquaintances, and 26% are by intimate partners.1

    Risk factors for perpetrating sexual violence include: early sexual experience (both forced and voluntary),6 adherence by men to sex role stereotyping,7,8 negative attitudes of men towards women,6,9,,10,11,12, alcohol consumption,8,13 acceptance of rape myths by men.8,9,12,14,15

    Non-forceful verbal resistance and lack of resistance are associated with rape completion.1,6

    The adult pregnancy rate associated with rape is estimated to be 4.7%. This information, in conjunction with estimates based on the U.S. Census, suggest that there may be 32,101 annual rape-related pregnancies among American women over the age of 18.17

    Non-genital physical injuries occur in approximately 40% of completed rape cases.18 As many as 3% of all rape cases have non-genital injuries requiring overnight hospitalization.19

    Victims of rape often manifest long-term symptoms of chronic headaches,18,20fatigue20, sleep disturbance20, recurrent nausea,20 decreased appetite,21 eating disorders,22 menstrual pain,18 sexual dysfunction,23 and suicide attempts.21 In a longitudinal study, sexual assault was found to increase the odds of substance abuse by a factor of 2.5.24

    Estimates of the occurrence of sexually transmitted diseases resulting from rape range from 3.6% to 30%.18,22 HIV transmission risk rate from rape is estimated at 1 in 500,22,25 although a few probable cases have been documented in Sweden and Great Britain. 26,27

    Victims of marital or date rape are 11 times more likely to be clinically depressed, and 6 times more likely to experience social phobia than are non-victims. Psychological problems are still evident in cases as long as 15 years after the assault.28

    Fatalities occur in about 0.1% of all rape cases.29,30

    A study examining the use of health services over a five year period by female members of a health maintenance program found that the number of visits to physicians by rape victims increased 56% in the year following the crime, compared to a 2% utilization increase by non-victims.31

    The National Public Services Research Institute estimates the lifetime cost for each rape with physical injuries which occurred in 1987 to be $60,000.32

    http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

  13. Researching the “Rape Culture” of America
    Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers

    Some feminists routinely refer to American society as a “rape culture.” Yet estimates on the prevalence of rape vary wildly. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, there were 102,560 reported rapes or attempted rapes in 1990.[1] The Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates that 130,000 women were victims of rape in 1990.[2] A Harris poll sets the figure at 380,000 rapes or sexual assaults for 1993.[3] According to a study by the National Victims Center, there were 683,000 completed forcible rapes in 1990.[4] The Justice Department says that 8 percent of all American women will be victims of rape or attempted rape in their lifetime. The radical feminist legal scholar Catharine MacKinnon, however, claims that “by conservative definition [rape] happens to almost half of all women at least once in their lives.”[5]

    http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html

  14. GREATEST THREAT TO AMERICA IS
    HOME GROWN TERRORISM

    America’s greatest threat and danger is not offshore terrorism. Author Sammy Sorrell in his recent book; “Homegrown Terrorism, The Undeclared War Against Crime In America” makes the case that America’s greatest threat is not a North Korean nuclear Missile. It is not Iran and its nuclear development. In fact it is not any offshore threat. America’s greatest threat is within from “Home Grown Terrorism”, or crime in America. We now rank as the number one violent nation on the earth and number one for prison inmates. This undeclared war has a direct and indirect cost reaching into the trillions of dollars. This homegrown terrorism and massacre continues and increases daily and hourly.

    The 350% increase in crime during the past 40-years in America is tied directly to immorality in the nation and a dominant lawyer culture controlling our total justice system.
    In the Federal Congress over 60% are lawyers. In the Executive branch 25 of the 45 presidents have been lawyers. In the 3rd branch, the Judicial there are 100% lawyers.
    So we have lawyers making the laws, lawyers judging us in the laws, lawyers defending us in the laws, lawyers prosecuting us in the laws, lawyers interpreting the laws and lawyers administering the laws-what a constitution nightmare we have allowed to happen!

    The 425-page book “Homegrown Terrorism, The Undeclared War Against Crime In America” by author Sammy Sorrell, American Trend Publishing describes Homegrown Terrorism as the most dangerous and deadly war Americans have ever faced. The author says no war has ever altered the lifestyle of Americans more than the undeclared war on crime. Author Sammy Sorrell points to the several tragic multiple killings such as Columbine, The Virginia Tech Massacre, Alabama family murders, Oakland police murders, Binghamton, NY Immigration Center and others as the symptom of rampant immorality, attack on the family and resulting deterioration and a broken judicial system operated by a dominant lawyer culture that has avoided legal justice reform like the plague. Make no mistake for these reasons our great nation is traveling the road to vigilante justice and ultimate anarchy. In his book, the author offers a 21 focused attack to win the war on crime. Sorrell is national director and founder of “United Citizens For Legal Reform” with Internet web site at http://www.atps.com/uclr; Since founding the organization in 1990, Sorrell says over 500,000 people have visited the web site-with thousands registering complaints calling for legal justice reform of the civil and criminal justice system including the prison system. Sorrell is past producer and talk show host on “Justice In America”. He also has been a litigation consultant and law firm investigator.

    This is a good book to read about Americans from inside instead of reading racist and misleading posts about other nations in here.

    http://www.atps.com/crime/usa.htm.

  15. @Medina

    What do rape statistics have to do with the subject? Just out curiosity, can you pull up statistics on rape in Saudi Arabia as detailed as the ones you’ve provided?

    Regarding the topic, some people are just crude. I don’t know anyone that would ask a co-worker any of the mentioned questions. I just find it hard to imagine that anyone would ask to touch a co worker’s hair, that’s usually reserved for playgrounds (more pulling than touch really) and petting zoos. While asking about someone’s sexual history, or their willingness to do the dirty with you is just creepy.

  16. @ Broke Saudi – of course there are no equivalent authentic stats on rape or anything else of matter in Saudi. Providing accurate statistics would suggest there are problems here and doing so is totally outside the rules. Just look at what happened – and is happening – to the guy who talked about having s*x on tv. He isn’t in trouble for HAVING s*x but rather for talking about it, for shedding light on a so-called problem, and thus forcing people to confront it.

    @American Bedu – this is a great topic and one that should be addressed. Thanks for bringing it up. Sure, there are some cultural communications at play, but for the most part I think the inappropriateness is due to ignorance – and before I get hammered for that, let me explain. Saudi men are ignorant of women because they don’t have access to them, don’t have any genuine encounters or relationships with them because of segregation. They’re like little boys on the playground who kick girls because they don’t know any better…yet. And that’s the thing. Little boys eventually have the chance to learn better, Saudi guys by and large do not! And yes, I’m generalizing.

    @Medina – May I suggest basic blog etiquette?

  17. Broke Saudi,

    US rape statistics are probably thrown up there to show us that all American women are whores (who were “asking for it”) and American men are two-legged beasts with no morals.

    At least, that is what I am guessing?

    Wonder what KSA rape statistics are? Oh yeah…that’s RIGHT! They probably don’t HAVE ANY! (RAPES OR STATISTICS) And of course, everybody knows that the raping of maids and hired help doesn’t count because they are all “non-saudi”, hence, “lesser species”. And of course man on boy rape wouldn’t count either, would it? Especially since it NEVER happens.

  18. @sabiwabi
    It’s not stupidity, my dear; it’s ignorance….it’s lack of discipline when treating people from other cultures….Cultural difference can cause wars not jsut misunderstandings…..Plus you need to know a very basic thing about Saudis in general and Saudi men in specific…..they DO NOT READ at ALL!!

    Regarding the media, the Saudis are not the only ones who are affected negatively by the media…. You and many others think of us negatively because of the media’s influence on you …..In the States there have been ongoing debates on the effect of hip hop songs on the youth and on the image of black women….and this is just one example….

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090224132903.htm

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081103084042.htm

    Creating chaos among cultures is a huge game that politicians and the media emperors are playing…otherwise their dirty stuff won’t sell!

    Very few people know how to think for themselves without taking the imposed ideas for granted….
    and…it is not just the media that is contributing to that bad image of the American women…..it is what the Saudis see and experience when they go to America….there they get to know girls who are willing to have a one-night stand relationship with them….there they see licensed prostitutes…..
    then they go to their country with all these dirty images in their minds, and once they see an American woman in Saudi Arabia, they think she’s like the ones they’ve met…..
    their basic problem is that they don’t know how to differenciate between respectable women and other women who are available for every freelancer….

    Another problem is that some Saudis simply don’t respect any person from another country or religion even if he were an Arab…..Some Saudis are raised upon looking at others (foreigners) as inferiors who don’t have morals….
    This is a serious problem that needs to be solved, but unfortunately, some Saudis are not willing to admit the problem….

    If i were an American woman and a Saudi man asks me disrespectful questions, I would surly give him a peicwe of my mind! Lessons that Mama and Papa didn’t teach him will be my speciality :)

    Maha

  19. Haha, it’s funny when you read it, but not funny when you live it.
    I have heard a story of Saudi guy I know who asked the lady that works in the housing office in one of the universities in the US whether she was a virgin or not. The lady had previously told him she had children. If I were there I think the awkwardness of the situation would make me slap this guy on the face, and maybe kick him on the butt several times too. I know that I just can’t stand these situations.
    However, when thinking about it, I somewhat agree with مها نور إلهي in that Saudi men lack cultural consideration. To them, women should be covered, segregated and cannot under any circumstances carry out conversations with men…etc etc. Now, they see in front of them these foreign women who don’t cover and don’t believe in it, mingle freely with strange men and don’t believe in segregation and don’t mind talking to men…etc etc… so these men’s standards of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate get messed up… and they start asking inappropriate questions. They cannot comprehend that there are other cultures/norms/believes. I’m not trying to defend my countrymen here, rather I’m accusing them of ignorance of ‘other cultures’, something Saudis need to learn desperately if they want to behave normally when they meet a non Saudi.
    And there’s no question that the media plays a major role on this too.
    Medina, that was totally uncalled for and also inappropriate for this post. Did you even read the post?
    Broke Saudi, you made me laugh! I agree, this “can I touch your hair” sounds really really weird!

  20. Nader, I think you touched on a good point. Hyper-segregation is ultimately, very bad for the social health of society. It leads to a whole host of weird and inappropiate behaviors. Moderation in ALL aspects of life was encouraged by our Prophet. Sad that in the land which he (pbuh) came from, MODERATION in ANYTHING is rarely ever seen.

  21. hello everyone,
    As “blunt” as some Americans seem to Arabs, nothing beats a saudi woman for getting the facts. And if she can’t get them straight from the source, she’ll just make them up. Everyone has to put the cultural stereotype of a shy, demure saudi woman out of their heads.
    Perhaps our “aggressiveness” (with manners or without) has to do with the fact that we have no real power or control, so we cut ahead in line, demand too much from servants, ask nosey questions, talk loudly, overdress, etc. Obviously not all saudi women act like this, but even I am aware of the “type”.
    As for the men…I have never understood how people disassociate others from basic humanity. Can they not understand that these western women are like their own sisters, mothers, etc.? Of course, if we all kept other’s “humaness” in mind, we probably wouldn’t go to war, and kill other people’s sons and daughters.

  22. Exactly what I said – the biggest challenge before humans has always been to follow the simplest acts of humanity!

  23. I have never been to KSA so I will defer to those with direct experience. However, as for the ladies questions I am wondering how much of it is “socially acceptable” among themselves. Questions like “where do you work or where do you live” while a bit forward are not so much as to make me think that they are being totally rude. Is it rude for them to ask new Saudi acquaintances that? If so then they might not realize other cultures might not be quite so open with personal facts.

    As for the men I find this a whole other bag of “not okay”. I do think perhaps some of it has to do with what they see in movies and on TV. I know my Indian (husband’s) family were really surprised to find out that most American women and families for that matter don’t fit the role that they see in the movies and on TV. They asked a million questions, which I gladly answered and for awhile there I was the poster child for “American ethics”.

    The one thing I do find a bit disturbing is that their questions are so heavily based on s*x and are WAY WAY inappropriate. I can only imagine it is due in part to the segregation they are in a perpetual state of adolescent
    libido because they don’t get the chance to mix and learn about women.

  24. Oh that rape statistic thing …. half the world doesn’t have rape statistics because the VICTIM is the one who gets punished by the law. Rape statistics in the US also include spousal rape and again, in half the countries there is no such thing as spousal rape because I wife has no rights.

    I agree that American TV can be deceptive and I’ve explained to some of my relatives that it is not REAL American life. Some of my relatives truly think that TV is the way it really is.

    I’ve always been taught that there is no such thing as a bad question and that we always have the right not to answer. I do understand that personal questions are not appropriate for Saudi man to ask of a woman.

  25. My neighbor had relatives in from Norway. When I met them and welcomed them to my country the man said he loved being here and was excited to be on Wisteria Lane (Desperate Housewives) lol

  26. I have no doubt that there are ignorant people in this country that are clueless about other cultures and I’m sure that they might ask some pretty ridiculous questions. One might be, do you love your children? Especially after hearing so many stories about families celebrating the martyrdom of their suicide bomber children.

  27. Asking to touch your hair is one thing…just going ahead and touching it is quite another. My first couple of years in Bahrain were dotted with episodes of women strangers just walking up and touching my hair…with no formality or how do you do involved first. Apparently red hair was a source of wonder 23 years ago…but still…personal space people.

    Ive lost track of the number of Bahrainis who asked me if I was a virgin when I married…now how many arabs do you know would ask that of a fellow arab woman?

  28. After more than a decade of living in KSA as an expat, my sense of the source of these inappropriate questions and comments is that there is no fear of consequences or reprisals. A woman who makes issue of these questions is in fear of deportation. The best we can do is refuse to answer them.

  29. As a longtime reader of this blog, I’m really disappointed that you used the incredibly racist image with this post. I wouldn’t be surprised if it came from a white supremacist website. “White slavery” and the fear of darkies taking white women are blatantly racist ideas. Nevermind the fact that the vast majority of enslaved women are women of color, and women from third world countries are most at risk for the treatment shown above. Criticizing treatment of women by Saudis is one ( very legitimate) thing, but images like the one above go beyond to feed into racist and Islamophobic thought. I thought you’d know better.

  30. @Sand Gets in My Eyes, I sorta figured that we don’t have the most detailed rape statistics I was trying to drive a point home with that question..

  31. AlHijarat(6) “O ye who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done” (Quran)

    First of All, I will comment on these racist and misleading information that Carol has provided willingly in here to accuse a nation (Saudi society) of barbarism and describe them unfairly as kidnapper and white slaver. This lady who is called Carol is misleading people in here by her racist imagined dialogue above. I think this lady does not even have any respect neither to her husband who is Saudi nor to her family in law who live in Saudi Arabia. This lady is giving us false information based on as she claimed a friend “ talk” with her. Imagine that she judges a society and giving racist warnings and publish these racist warnings in a blog based on her own racist perceptions. I just want you to imagine how much such blogger has lack of objectivity and respect.
    Commenting on Carol’s racist dialogue above, my Saudi fellows who comment on this racist dialogue, I am asking you to reread the dialogue and then think for a second how such dialogue sound before you even comment.

    Commenting on the what this lady called inappropriate questions:
    • If I were single would you date me?
    • Did you sleep with him?
    • Do you want to sleep with him?
    • Are you a virgin?
    • How many relationships have you had?
    According to American “values”, women generally date people who are not married or not have girlfriend even though we can talk about the “American polyamore” . I have an American friend and we were once talking about the American polyamory. He told me that most American guys get laid with about 30 ladies generally in a life time. He told me that the same also can be said about women. They get laid with many men before they are ok to get married. This information has been given to me by an American friend. And if you do not believe me just Google the American polyamory. Hence, These American ladies when they are asked about their past sexual history, they feel ashamed to answer such questions and feel embarrassed because they are already most of them lost their virginity at the age of 10. so, for Saudis who are willing to engage with serious relationship end in marriage, these questions are important for him. Because he will not engage with a polyamory lady who get laid 20 times at least with different partners. Bear in mind that in Islamic culture, girls are virgin before they get marry. So if the lady is a virgin, this is a sign of her chastity and her honesty and purity. So no wonder if a Saudi can ask some questions to know about the chastity of his future wife. But the American ladies who find such questions are inappropriate, they want to hide their past history of sex, so such questions are inappropriate for such people. And I agree. We have to consider that they get laid many times for not embarrassing them. (smiling)
    Commenting on the following questions:
    • Will you have an affair with me?
    • Can I kiss you?
    • Can I just touch your hair?
    These questions are asked when the Saudi man knows about the American lady history of sex. That is, he deduced from the questions that are already discussed that she is polyamory lady who get laid more than 20 times with different partners. Hence, American lady should blame their American polyamory who make them sounds like sluts to other people.(feeling sad)

    To people who has commented on the rape statistics I have already posted, I think such statistics are reliable and tell you more about American society from inside. I posted reliable information released by official American bodies about the violence in this society. And here carol instead of publishing racist and false information about Saudis. I think you carol has to work hard in your own society instead of publishing these racist dialogs. Hopefully, you will succeed to reduce the polyamory numbers.

  32. Medina, see, what you don’t understand is this one thing.
    IF a person has been ‘polyamorous’ they will NOT be ashamed to tell you so. If they thought it was wrong they wouldn’t do it (and there are plenty that fit that category). But it IS completely improper to ask and certainly if the purpose for asking was so that you could be assured that the person is a whore who will readily accept your invitation for sex. Just because one might be an ‘American Polyamore’ does not necessarily mean that s/he isn’t choosy about who they sleep with.

  33. Medina… Your first mistake is to listen to a man about any sexual information. They will exaggerate and lie most of the time…even in Saudi Arabia. You LOVE to quote statistics…read for yourself:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19374216/

    Secondly…just for argument sake let’s say that a Saudi man is thinking of a western woman for a possible life partner. don’t you think any Saudi man that might be interested in a non Saudi woman for marriage should get to know her on a friendly level FIRST before even thinking about talking about such intensely personal subjects? Does he really think that she is going to answer any question like that to a complete stranger. Not to mention the mere fact that he would ask that means (in a woman’s mind) that he has very little respect for her. How enticing could he think he would be to a woman when he approaches her in this manner? If he is seriously interested in her he should be willing to put in the effort involved to get to know her as a person first.

    But to my mind it is a mute point. If a Saudi man thinks that Western women are so “immoral” why would he even bother to ask any of those questions. It is a forgone conclusion in his mind that she is “immoral”. To my way of thinking it is far more likely he is testing the waters so to speak to see what reaction he will get from her in the hopes he might find one willing to give him a tumble.

  34. Again another account of how some Saudi men do not respect women, specifically foreign women. That’s just disgusting behavior as is those who try to justify it. Taking your perceptions of foreign women from Hollywood films/shows is just dumb. And thinking women are “pure” and honest just because they are virgins, are IMO, even dumber. With this kind of thought it’s no wonder hymen reconstruction is so popular nowadays in Europe (among Muslim girls) and other Muslim countries.

    @Medina are you out of your mind? Losing your virginity at 10? The only time I’ve heard of any girl losing her virginity that young it was due to sexual abuse. Which in this culture that’s pedophilia and against the law unlike your culture which thinks it’s ok to marry a girl that young. As if “marriage” makes it better. Right, give me a break.

  35. Medina…

    I reread your post and you say that Carol is being racist…but I have to say I think you are being racist.

    VERY VERY few girls and I mean VERY few unless they are victims of a se*ual predator lose their virginity at 10. I am not sure where you got that statistic, but I urge you to reconsider your facts.

    Secondly you said that a Saudi would not consider getting involved in a serious relationship with a “polyamory” woman who has had sex 20 partners or more. Might I point out a small fact: How will he ever know? If she was, she could lie about it and he would never be able to know. Just as he could do the same about his # of sexual partners and she could not know.

    The point is, for people meeting each other for the first time and getting to know each other they are EXTREMELY inappropriate questions.

    How would a Saudi woman feel if she was in the USA and met an American man for whom chastity was important and he asked her those questions. Do you think she might be insulted? I think so and an American woman would feel the same way if ANY man Saudi or not asked that right off the bat. Until they have some understanding of a possible future together it is NONE OF HIS BUSINESS what her sexual history is if indeed she even has one.

    You said:
    “American lady should blame their American polyamory who make them sounds like sluts to other people.(feeling sad)”

    For someone who does not want a non Saudi to judge an entire society by the actions of some it sure seems like you are using an awfully big assumption to judge the actions of all women based on a few.

  36. Neither the American society nor the Saudi society is improving in terms of respect among each other and the rest of the world.
    Neither society has much respect left for the elders compared to their previous generation.
    Much is expected from Saudi in a sense that it is has Makkah and Madinah within. On the other hand, since the majority does not really care about the afterlife and is more into this world and materialism, America has the upper hand on this field so they are also looked upon. And this is exactly what is used to criticize either country.

    Since the whole group is after SAudi Arabia and criticizing it for every little thing, and only appreciating the Haraam modernization that is coming into Saudi Arabia, I think it is okay for few people to get angry and criticize America for its problems. It is a psychological thing, just like how you American women defend America some patriotic Saudis try to defend Saudi Arabia. Of course not the silly acts that are video recorded but it is a nature of a person to relate himself to the positives of a society. You people here do not bother to understand how one may or may not feel about such articles here, it is plain generalization. You want them to admit and admit and admit that there is everything bad about Saudi Arabia. If a foreigner comes to this webpage for some info about Saudi Arabia then what is he going to think?

    Just like how you women hate the religious police for walking around and forcing you to cover or what ever, some people here hate your attitude of forcing them to believe that Saudi society is worst of a kind.

    Of course I do not mean they are perfect and a lot of stuff mentioned here IS TRUE. But you should give it a fair weight, one that a topic deserve, not exaggerate it. And if there is GOOD, even from the people you hate like the religious police, then do mention it. Since all that we can do is TALK and not actually change anything. Like someone mentioned before “open discussions” then why not discuss the good stuff as well?

    PS. Just like how our beloved Prophet Mohammad SallAllahu Alaihi Wassallam encouraged modernization, I think he discouraged speaking against someone and to look at the good side of people. You may argue that the same must go to them too, well very true but the change starts from YOU so there you go. I hope people here do not stick to the sole purpose of MODERNIZING Saudi Arabia cuz the Prophet SAW promoted it but also to other things that he SAW promoted.

  37. “Many american movies show American women as whores….. i am truly sorry to say this….”

    Oh brother…heard this many times! Its not fair to compare two cultures who cognitively view the world around them very differently.

    That said, I believe in my heart that there is too much sexuality shown in the media. Period. At least you said there is a disconnect between the media and what happens in real life. Now, if me, as an American woman believed all what the (trashy) American media told me, I would be a Muslim hater. Obviously, I am not.

    anthrogeek10

  38. Medina…the only 10 year old girls that lose their virginity are those raped…or married off by their Muslim/Arab/Pakistani etc etc etc families. What a gross exaggeration on your part and such a shame you or any other Saudi believe this of women in general and American women specifically. Is that REALLY why you treat women so badly….you assume they are sleeping around already…so why not with you too? What a crock of male hormone driven crap.

    A womans sexual history should not be Shocking to anyone…just like a mans sexual history is never shocking to anyone. There are so many worse things a woman (or man) could do in their lives to warrant such condemnation…having a sexual history should barely blip the radar. After all…whats it to YOU how many people ANYONE sleeps with.

  39. Coolred,

    “Medina…the only 10 year old girls that lose their virginity are those raped…or married off by their Muslim/Arab/Pakistani etc etc etc families.”

    you are such a racist. you’re an extremist.

  40. “For someone who does not want a non Saudi to judge an entire society by the actions of some it sure seems like you are using an awfully big assumption to judge the actions of all women based on a few.”

    Thank you Oby…right on!

    anthrogeek10

  41. I agree that the image with the post is inappropriate….and THAT is why I selected such an image to further illustrate the point. Strong emotions are generated from the image and strong emotions are generated from the inappropriate questions that have been asked to single women as well. So now the point is to find the middle ground.

  42. Maha…

    I do think you made a very good point about America’s hip hop culture and how it affects the youth and it’s view of women. I also think it affects not only how these young women view themselves but it also influences how young men view women, their values and how they should treat them.

    I don’t know why the people who make hip hop music can’t put good lyrics in. Lyrics that empower the young person to think of themselves in a better way rather than lyrics so heavily based on degrading themes. I can’t imagine that it would sell any less records and it would have the benefit of kids looking not only at themselves but at young girls in a more positive light.

    I think it is a multi pronged approach. the record companies, artists making the music and the parents have a role to play. As a parent you have to vigilant about what your kids see and hear on TV and music. At 10, although my daughter does not listen to hip hop we have already started talking in a gentle way about music that is inappropriate and demeans both men and women. As she gets older I will expand on that theme to help her understand more. I also limit her TV viewing not only in time but content. She is an only child so it might be easier when there are not older siblings around. But my parents were pretty strict with us growing up on what and how much we could watch and none of really had a taste for the trashy stuff. Maybe my parents lucked out-don’t know.

    But it a proven fact that kids brains don’t stop growing until they are about 25 years old. The frontal lobe which is the decision making, emotional control, social and s*xual behavior center is the last to mature. So why is it a surprise that when teens see stuff like this they can internalize it and make some immature choices. Is it any wonder?

  43. YQ…I was married for 20 years to an Arab…my children are half arab…so stick your racism comment in your pipe and smoke it.

  44. coolred….

    okay… thanks

  45. Why is it inappropriate to ask an American lady about her past sexual history?
    I asked my American friend this question last night and here is his reply as follows:

    My friend told me that American ladies get laid with plenty of partners before the age of 16 maximum. He told me that past sexual history is considered something private because the American ladies try to live new life every time they get engage with a new partner. So, according to my friend, the American lady likes to forget her past sexual relations. Therefore, when you ask her to recall her “past” history she get annoyed. and that is why she does not like anyone to ask her how many times she get laid with different partners.

    According to my friend’s talks, he said that the most concern to us American guys is not how much or how many partners the American lady gets laid with. he said the most concern to us is whether the American lady has released porn movies or not. According to my American friend, one of his friend has engaged with love relationship with a American lady. he said they were together for about 2 years and they decided to get married. once, he has invited one of his friends for dinner. when his friend saw that lady his friend got shocked. After his guest has left, the guy called him and asked him why he got shocked when he saw his girlfriend you know what? He told him that he saw pictures and porn movies of that lady in a porn website. Then, the guy asked for the website to check his friend’s claims. When he opened that website, he found that his girlfriend has many naked pictures there and some porn movies. The sad thing about this story is that this girl who used to live in her mom and her father in law’s house since she was child, has been asked to move out from the house because she can not pay the rent of her room when she became 18 years old. The story of this girl is long but her boyfriend broke up with her because of these naked pictures and the porn movies that she published in that website. I just wanted to highlight why it is not appropriate to ask an American lady about her past sexual relationship. And why it is appropriate for Saudis to ask an American lady about her past sexual relationships.

    Some people, unfortunately, Saudis in here, defend the racism of carol against their own Saudi society. And such behavior makes me wonder are they really Saudis? The problem is that such bunch Saudis in here think that to get warm welcome from Americans is through bashing your Saudis fellow or standing harshly against your cultural norms. Some of those Saudis accused me of racism against American ladies just because I based my argument on my American friend’s story. The same thing has been done by carol when she published her racist warnings against Saudis and she already acknowledged that it is inappropriate. Here we remember the double standards of such mentality. When carol posted her racist dialogue against Saudis YOU clapped to her and started dancing on carol’s gossips against Saudis, but when I showed you the official statistics that describe how American society is from inside, I has been accused of racism. (smiling)

    Some people is wondering about how the American chastity is perceived by out groups members. And I am here asking, can you give me just one American TV cannel promote chastity? Can you mention any American program that promote chastity? On the other hand, homosexuality, mature or adult, or homosexual pornography are promoted in American mass media. Here, I ask you, what would people think about such society, when these programs and TV channels fight the chastity and promote pornography? The answer is inside your heart located.

    At last, I would like to say that I do not believe in generalization but YOU carol has driven me to treat you by the same technique that you have used against us. Not every society is perfect. Every society has its own problems and that is why every society has courts, prisons, laws for regulating people. And that is why there is justice and injustice, morality and immorality. So, to be like a bee that check always for roses and flowers is much better than to be like a fly that looks for dirty in surroundings.

    In summary, this blog is always concentrating on the bad behaviors done by bunch of Saudis and then ascribe these attributes unfairly to the Saudi society. So, I conclude that this blog mislead readers and give them false information and sometimes racist information about and against Saudi people.

  46. Medina,
    You need to find more friends, at least some that have such a narrow view of American women and American life. Saying that many women have multiple partners by the age of 16 is a gross mis statement! Many women of the age of 16, 18, or older are still virgins. They may have had several boyfriends, but are still virgins.

    Your friend seems to be bragging and making up things just to improve your view of him. He is wrong on so many levels. Tell him to grow up and wise up. He is not a good representation of what an American man is supposed to be. In my opinion, he is just an immature boy who needs to grow up and stop making up lies.

  47. @Medina, et al:

    This post illustrates questions that have been asked of individuals who are very much unknown to each other. The belief that I have is that such questions are not appropriate topics to just randomly ask as such to an American woman, to a Saudi woman or any woman under those circumstances.

    This post is not an invitation nor appropriate to discuss sexual histories. If one wants to exchange perspectives on moral behaviors in a responsible manner, that would be in the context of the post topic on why are some questions raised that are not culturally, politically and diplomatically correct to ask.

    When controversial and sensitive issues are raised emotions and choices of words used escalate. Thank you for illustrating this point Medina.

    I do not expect everyone to love or endorse each and every topic I have chosen to post. And Medina, because I also know you want to be a fair person, I am confident that you have read other topics on this blog that you have appreciated and enjoyed. Your past comments on some topics support this.

  48. Medina…the term “got laid” is generally used by randy teenage boys who believe “getting laid” is a topic worth bragging about to their equally randy friends…and thus make up “getting laid” stories to feel more manly among their peers. Your comments sound like a chest thumping crotch grabbing teenage B.S. fest among boys. As suggested by someone else…you need a better caliber of friends to get your info from.

  49. Why is it that AmBed’s blog always gets bogged down with one on-going asshole who will not just comment then “shut the eff up!!”? WTF!! She has a good blog…with decent topics, most of the time. Is that what brings in these inconsiderate, loud mouth (excessively long, misinformed, my friend said) ignoramuses? The current one seems to be Medina. As one leaves another shows up…when I first discovered her blog there was one called UmmAdam…then there was Chiara…and now this Medina. In order to keep people on track, foster productive dialogue, and stop the digression into “i know mine is but yours is worst” type of comments, she’d do well to moderate who or what people can post. Or, at the very least…establish some guidelines, and those comments that are outside of those guidelines, gets deleted or it’s not posted. And, one of these guidelines could be…”no excessively long comments” and definitely not more than one. NO ONE wants to read that crap over and over again. But, then I’m sure she’s getting tons of comments, and will find this time consuming. But…Really, I can’t see how she can stand it. Therefore, I will check back in a few months and see if anything has changed.

    BTW: I think Saudi men (who by their own established rules state they should not even be talking to a female who isn’t a family member) who ask ex-pat women these inappropriate questions are doing it as a sign of disrespect. They feel that the woman shouldn’t be there anyway, and that she should be covered up (this is evident by how they have their own women on lock down). To use American television as an excuse for such behavior is a lame excuse at best. Even is she was a whore (which the majority of American women are NOT), you’re suppose to be an upstanding, highly moral MUSLIM man, who prays 5 times a day, and immune to such diversions. Again…this is just another way for them to excuse away what they know is inappropriate behavior. Gawd……. *shaking her head at the stupidity of it all*
    Peace

  50. @BCIS – “Even is she was a whore (which the majority of American women are NOT), you’re suppose to be an upstanding, highly moral MUSLIM man, who prays 5 times a day, and immune to such diversions.”

    Exactly.

  51. Saudis interrogate their own fellow Saudis too – except for the questions asked by men.. I really never knew people can be that blunt.

  52. @BCIS: May be you must read the blog rules from not using the words such as a**h*** and also hinting at the F*** word.

    As well personnally abusing other commentators.

    And Hats off to Carol for allowing offensive abusive worded comments in her blog.

  53. Sally

    that is his point, STOP asking people who already hate Saudi Arabia about how good Saudi Arabia is. That they are not a good representation of what Saudi people are suppose to be..

  54. Medina –

    So, if what you are saying is really true, then your friend and all Saudi males should stay away from American women as well as other expats who come from free countries.

    Why is it that Saudis change so much once they are out of their own country? If they hate the West and think that they are all heathens, then why do they keep bringing in more and more expats?

  55. At least once i would like to agree with Rosecoolred.

    I think today we must develop more self respect for our own culture, people and heritage. I think one of the first thing the people from middle east must do is to diversify their investments from west to development projects in middle east and Asia. And may be we must simply peg Oil against Gold Bullion instead of Dollars, and stop sending our kids to their universities.

    It is our ignorance and dependence on them that makes them treat us crap and bad mouth us, even though most of these people love our tax free money they make here.

    And also atlast the Middle east must stop wake up and smell the coffee, how ever good they try to project themselves by inter-faith conferences or scholarships to foreign students to study (like KAUST) they would still be considered as barbarians by this bunch of people.

    Well its after all our fault that we like to emulate them for their examples and try to be like them.

    Well Medina just maintain silence and think what has made this bunch of hate mongers speak against us unashamedly often sitting in our own homes.

    @Rose Coolred,
    Its not always that we are the only ones who end up with your women, remember it takes two hands to clap.

    Our guys got money and they easily flaunt it off, and some American ladies are naive to think that marrying a Arab would be like living as Princess of Arabia and they forget that apart from being a Princess there are cultural norms here which are expected to be followed (compare this with Princess Diana), which they forget.
    So its a two way problem, even the women must be educated enough.

    And personally i hate to see Asian guys (including middle easterns) having too much preference for white women, they must just get their priorities right.

  56. I am so sorry to see a post so full of hate and prejudice…
    On both sides, there is no respect and no understanding and acceptance of a different culture….

    I wish that American Bedu deletes the abusive comments…
    This is not a way to have a discussion….
    I wish that everybody stays on topic and stops throwing accusations on others…most importantly, please stop taking things personally…

    We are discussing (some) negative cases that badly represent the Saudis….so it’s a shame that an American in this blog comes and says (you Saudis..) are *****!!!

    I believe that all of us are mature enough to know that EVERY single country in this world has its problems and has people who are destructive and ignorant in different ways….

    I think American Bedu aimed to spread cultural awareness and consideration by posting this topic, but some commentators here have turned into a battle field where they showed clearly their lack of acceptance of the other…

    When i read the comments, I felt that it’s a competition in whose the best to say the worst about the other…

    American Bedu,
    Please, reset the goals of your blog….do you want to be a battle field between people who hate and disrespect each other or an opportunity for everyone to learn about the other and to learn how to accept, respect, and try to understand the differences???

    Do you want this blog to be about hate and prejudice or about understanding?

    If you believe that hate and disrespect is part of freedom of expression and debate, then I am so sorry, I won’t be following this blog or commenting anymore….not that anybody cares :)

    Thanks a lot…
    Maha

  57. American Bedu:

    The previous posts on the “abused woman” or the “female without protection” were made controversial because they passed, willingly or unwillingly, as typical Saudi issues, when in reality they related to human nature in general.

    But it is because of issues like this one mentioned above and their particularity to the Saudi society that i find your blog very interesting. They shine a light on the cultural discrepancies and the many cultural assumptions we too often make about people who are different from us, and call on Saudis to face some of their spiritual and intellectual dysfunctions.

    Thank you again,
    bdg.

    PS: of course , you are not responsible for the comments of some, always the same, ignorant hate hatemongers!
    Hats off for Daisy and مها نور إلهي for their genuine attempt at understanding each other, and at Abu Abdullah for his many good points.

  58. Bruno,
    Good comment. Now you make me speechless

  59. If I have helped fuel the fire, I apologize. Carol,I enjoy your blog, please continue. If you can, maybe you ought to close this discussion.

  60. I think Maha is the voice of reason here and I agree with her. Prejudice comes, for the most part, from lack of understanding and fear of what we don’t know(or more pointedly perhaps what we THINK we know about another culture) It is easy to get sidetracked when someone throws out a comment that others feel is wrong about either country and the race is on. Off and running to try to set those other people right.
    I have not had the experience that American Bedu asks about Saudi men. However, in answer and perhaps in an attempt to get back on track, I think that a wise rule of thumb with ANY foreigner that we are not familiar with would be to conduct ourselves with them as we would our own families. So if you would not ask your own native women such questions it would not be acceptable to ask foreign women those questions either.

  61. I am not the silence and I am not the voice of hate and prejudice. My history in this blog tells you whom I am and how I discuss points raised here so rationally and far from being bias.

    what I have mentioned in my post is not “hate” it is statistics released by American official bodies and also my argument was based on my American friend’s talks. so everything I have mentioned and posted were Americans’ talks.

    why I chose to use these statistics and to bring my American friend’s voice up in here is for one reason.

    in the conversation that carol posted about Saudis as warnings to American ladies. She says and describe any Saudis as ” kidnaper and white slaver” The one who heated the topic is carol by describing the Saudi society as barbarians. How do you want me to react? how do you want me to deal with the topic while I find myself has been described as a white salver and kidnapper? do you want me to smile and hat off to carol? do you want me to keep silent and bash my Saudi fellows? of course I had to defend myself because she say Saudis are kidnapper and white slaver. so, when I defend myself and my Saudi fellows by providing reliable statistics about American society and by explaining carol’s claims.
    Hence, why you call this hate? This is not hate. The hate and the racism is when someone describe a society as kidnapper and slaver based on a friend’s talk and start publishing warnings in her blog.

    @ carol, I did not say that your topic should please me or Saudis, but if you want to bring up any idea or topic, you should choose your words well when you talk about any nation.

    Last word in this topic, I have a female American friend. she is a good example of respect and chastity. so, I always deal with people at interpersonal level but not at the intergroup level. unfortunately, this blog deals with Saudis at the intergroup level. WEST and Saudi (laughing). So, carol classify people in here. Bear in mind that When someone classifies you according to his beliefs, attitudes and then behaviors, this means he takes a position against you. Period. That is what actually carol is doing here. It is an old fashion actually, because at this time with globalization, relationships between nations became at the personal level and the world is heading towards mono global identity.

  62. BCIS, Good comment!

    Maha, it’s not always like this. It seems to come in waves, and every now and then some bigots find this blog and trolls around for a while…. but they don’t stay for ever.
    Best way to get rid of them: Don’t Feed the Trolls!
    We often have very cosy times here :)

    But then the subjects have been a bit inflaming as well! ;)

    About the subject, some are indeed very inappropriate and rude questions and well deserving a serious left-hook to the jaw.
    For men of course, somehow with women it would be slightly less insuling.

    Bedu, what would happen after you socked an insulting saudi male on the jaw???

  63. ‘It is our ignorance and dependence on them that makes them treat us crap and bad mouth us, even though most of these people love our tax free money they make here.’

    I could NOT agree with you more!

  64. ‘And personally i hate to see Asian guys (including middle easterns) having too much preference for white women, they must just get their priorities right.’

    AMEEN!!!

  65. Gee … what’s wrong with us ‘white’ women anyway? :)

  66. I would like to add that the three saudi blokes I have met up till now in the ”west” have been very polite and friendly and courteous!
    Not a hint of rudeness or improprity! And very good, delightful company to be in.

  67. Wendy, I don’t know… I am lovely… :twisted:

  68. Dear Medina, you don’t defend yourself by showing that the other is worse. It doesn’t work that way you just end up looking guilty. Is it so offensive to you to admit that there IS a problem and then discuss what things could maybe be done in order to put an end to it? But, you, personally, do not have a reason to be on the defensive here unless of course you don’t think there is a problem with saudi’s speaking disrespeectfully to foreign women.

  69. Wendy, What’s wrong with us? Oh, something to do with the devil or the depths of hell, something like that. lol

  70. Lynn, speak for yourself: I am an angel! :mrgreen:

  71. Aafke…I dont know what happens when you sock a Saudi guy in the jaw…but I do know what happens when you punch a Bahraini guy in the nose… :mrgreen:

  72. Oh yeah right. Sorry Aafke, I forget that not all white women are Americans. lol

  73. @ Lynn,
    I stated why It is appropriate for some people to ask American ladies about their sexual history if someone is interested to engage in love relation with them. I did not bash American ladies but statistics speak out. so, it is not my fault if the statistics were painful to but it is fact and you have to encounter it. And I want to ask you, why it is OK for Americans to bash others and when they get bash back, they start crying? You should have a thick skin to receive the outcomes otherwise do not play such game.

  74. Medina…if you believe for one moment that Arab women are not out there getting their “itch scratched” then your living in la la land. They are…they just learned how to hide it better…and society makes sure they learn that real quick. Not to mention…hymen reconstruction wouldnt be such a huge attraction in the middle east if all those would be brides were virgins…lol.

  75. If they are interested in engaging in love relations with them then they should be asking their FATHERS those questions as that would be the proper manners in Saudi. Treat others as you would have them treat you. Not as you feel they deserve to be treated based on your incorrect beliefs about them.

    We are not complaining about the statistics that you post. Just that they are irrelevant to the discussion. But MOST especailly it seems so very ignorant to put up statistics to prove something when there are NO statistics from Saudi since the laws, culture, way of life, whatever, makes compiling actual statistics impossible. But then, someone who has the experience speaks up and are told they are liars or that they have ‘hidden agendas’? I mean, seriously, come on. You really can’t see the absurdity there?

  76. This all reminds me of a Chinese girl I once worked with. She said that no Chinese man would go into a strip club and she firmly believed that. Well, I can tell you that strip clubs are absolutely full of Chinese men (and every other kinda man) but she so wanted to believe that her people were “pure” that she simply denied it and to this day denies it.

  77. @ Lynn,
    I am against the dialogue that carol posted. if there was no such a racist dialogue, I can deal with the topic from another perspective. carol pulled me back to be defensive> I just used the same technique that she used. so why it is lawful for her and forbidden for me?

    @ coolred, you are joking, do you wanna me to ask the fathers about his daughter sexual history? I am sure he will say I have no idea go and ask her, he will say OHHH you should not ask such questions because she had two boyfriends before. So, he will say I would think you will not feel happy to hear that if you consider the sexual part important. I expect such an answer in case the father was not drunk LOL.

  78. Medina,
    Carol said ‘;@Maha – I do agree with your observations on how the image of an American woman is grossly exaggerated…same as how Saudi (as illustrated by the image I chose) is also grossly exaggerated. ‘

    Did you even read the post or did you just get upset with the picture?

    I think that someone has already advised you that you should NOT take that American friend’s advice on how an American woman expects to be treated. I would love to know more about this American ‘friend’ of yours. What is his background? Is he religious? Does he sleep around with loose women? What is his cultural background? I have never had a man ask me my sexual history and if he said that rape statistics gave them good reason to ask I would laugh in their face! Trust me, stay true to yourself and your beliefs and only treat others as you would have them treat you or treat women as you would have others treat your sister or mother. You will always be safe then.

  79. I am the one that told you to ask the father because that is the ARAB or Muslim way of doing things and that is who you are. LIke I said, stay true to who you are and deal with others accordingly.

  80. Of course any woman’s ”sexual history”, wether they have one or not, is nobody’s business but her own. It’s not her father’s business, not a suitors business, not her husband’s business, and not the business of strangers.

    To even hint towards it is in gross distaste and denotes very, very bad manners.
    In ”the west’ even hinting to it would not be considered the action of a gentleman. Therefore doing so, or even posing the question, would automatically place the man in the category of an uneducated, unfeeling barbarian hog.

    I think the distasteful comments and observations on western women I have seen here fall into the same category.

  81. on aafke’s “Of course any woman’s ‘’sexual history”, wether they have one or not, is nobody’s business but her own.”

    Well i wouldn’t want to marry any one with STD’s or be a father of some other kid unknowingly, no offence. :)

    Also Women have the right to check out their suitors too, even if it includes these personal aspects.

  82. ‘Well i wouldn’t want to marry any one with STD’s or be a father of some other kid unknowingly,’

    Well, see, here you might want to take the ‘Western’ route and spend a respectable time getting to know a person before considering them as marriage material. See, here in the ‘west’ we don’t treat marriage and relationships like shopping where you just place your order and put your money down without having a personal relationship with a person first. We use the dating process to find out about someone and determine if we think they are worthy of ‘forever’

    My best advice though is Saudis stick to your OWN countrywomen I hear that everyone knows EVERYthing about EVERYone there and we know that they would never have had sex or babies with anyone else.

  83. Abu Abdullah…

    I ti s not necessary to know someone’s personal history to know if they have an STD. It is possible to get an STD even if you have only a few partners and not get one if you have many. It doesn’t always go hand in hand.

    Secondly, it is pretty rare for a woman to have a child and a man not know about it at some point. Where is she going to hide it? In the closet? If she has a child and gives it up for adoption you are not the father of any hidden children. The adopted child now has a family who are responsible for it. Ironically, it is men who can have children out of wedlock and in later years the woman…girlfriend…wife finds out…it generally doesn’t work the other way around.

    But the whole point of this post is, is it OK to ask such personal questions to American women when you don’t know them or only know them only casually. It didn’t say that they were in a relationship that would lead to marriage. In my opinion, It is NOT OK to ask those questions to anyone you barely know. PERIOD!

  84. Well at least for now i would agree with Lynn…

    One should typically marry some one he / she is well known or accustomed with.

  85. Oby,
    i agree with ya
    but aafke said “It’s not her father’s business, not a suitors business, not her husband’s business”

    If the daughter is gonna be a slut its the dad’s job to correct it. And for the suitors and husband my argument still holds true.

    May be the husband is himself has been decent with no fornication all his life and he expects a similar wife. Can’t the husband have expectations?

    Well this line of commenting on such private matter is nauseating for me and i am bugging out.

  86. It’s a bit weird though, this obsession of of Abu Abdullah with women being sluts… and std’s….
    Especially as I think it’s the Arab men who are the sluts, and bring home the std’s, while leaving their illigitimate children in whatever country they spawned them.

    I think this because of the many, many stories I have heard, not from the media, but from people living in the middle east (saudies amongst them) about the antics of Arab men.

    Actually, I do also remember articles in Arab News about this as well, and one about the many half-saudi children left in foreign countries, fathered by Saudi men, who then come home riddled with Std’s because men who act as hypocrites are the last ones to be responsible with condoms, insist on marrying a girl which has been in chains all her life so they can be sure she is ”pure” and then infect her with their std’s…
    After which I suppose they will blame the women….
    Naturally….

  87. @Abu,
    AS I have mentioned in the story I posted that “her mum” and her father in law has asked her to move out because she could not pay the “rent of her room”. and you are asking about the father’s duty?her father is unkown and she has no idea about him.

    @Lynn,
    my american friend is catholic and he is in his 20s like me. he is white and blonde too. you said saudis stick your own women LOL. give me a break, no marriage by force. The topic is heatedha? LOL. you have opened the discussion so bear the outcomes. As I said have a thick skin next time LOL

  88. Medina – lol I’m just saying…if he has concerns about the purity of his prospective bride he should look for her in a culture where that purity is assured, like perhaps KSA.

    Oh, wait, we do have a Muslim population here in the US. Do you have to ask a Muslim-American woman the same questions before proposing?

  89. @Medina

    “To people who has commented on the rape statistics I have already posted, I think such statistics are reliable and tell you more about American society from inside. I posted reliable information released by official American bodies about the violence in this society.”

    And what do rape statistics have to do with sluttiness or number of sexual partners?

    “And here carol instead of publishing racist and false information about Saudis. I think you carol has to work hard in your own society instead of publishing these racist dialogs. Hopefully, you will succeed to reduce the polyamory numbers.”

    Aren’t you in an English-speaking country or something? Polyamory is NOT at all related to premarital or extramarital sex. Polyamory is a term applied to deliberate relationships with more than one partner AT THE SAME TIME. Not unlike, just for the sake of the argument, a man with multiple wives. Get a dictionary already.

  90. Women are suffering from oppression all over the world. This opression often translates in rape.
    The difference is not in the country.
    The difference is in how a society deals with it.

    In America statistics are kept, Victims get help, medical care, counselling. Criminals are punished.

    In Islamic countries statistics are non-existant. Victims get punished, tortured, killed. Criminals are not punished.

  91. well I believe the reaction to the IMAGE with included that dialogue (which one can easily locate on google images) along with the text I chose to write and then the subsequent comments have proved a point … no one likes to be asked inappropriate comments or have inappropriate statements made whether as an individual person, race, nationality or religion.

  92. Dear Carol / American bedu,

    I understand that you want this Blog to serve the promotion of dialogue between Saudis and other cultures. But the picture you have posted does not serve this purpose. Infact it has instigated much conflict, not just on the blog but also in the hearts and minds of people reading this blog. The only right thing for you to do is take the picture off and apologize. You should apologize cause you have disappointed your readers.
    All the other comments were just defensive silly responses. There were others who were more mature, and I thank them with my heart.
    I hope your future blogs are more constructive to intercultural peace and prosperity.

  93. HOLY SMOKES BEDU! You opened up a can of worms on this one.

    Medina, please, please tell me you and your American friend are both fifteen! I can imagine some types of American guys (hopefully very young) being a fountain of this type of information. I stay waaaaaay away from these men except for when I want to have my resolve to stay single and celibate reinforced.

    Why oh why do so many men (of many cultures) insist on using their mouths and personalities as a form of birth control???

    A special thanks to the many decent men out there in every culture for living with honor, integrity and grace.

    Now, I’m curious about what the picture was.

  94. When I was doing my bachelor degree in the state, an American dude kept nagging in the chemistry lap that I took. He was making fun of me saying :” look guys, this guy can marry his cousin”
    He said that many times and I was not considering what he said because I don’t want to make any troubles and I rarely talk with Americans in classes. However, once in front of all the class students, he looked me in the eye and said: ” how long have you been married to your cousin?”
    And then, I had had it, I replied to him: ” well, at least I won’t do it with my sister”
    Everyone laughed at him and I could see in his eye at that time he was furious. :)

  95. Medina
    do you have a blog that i can read :)
    D:

  96. Sadon, so you went to school in the south eh? lol

    How ignorant of that guy! Why didn’t he say ‘look guys, this guy can marry 4 of his cousins!’

  97. Throug all these comments and I forgot to ask. Who said it is OK for Saudi men to speak inappropriately?

  98. @Lynn
    does this mean that you have 4 sisters? :)

  99. My sisters aren’t your cousins so HANDS OFF! lol

  100. Thank you, Carol, for taking off the pic. It was very gracious of you.
    You know people dont understand one thing, that Saudi arabia is still in its infancy.
    The U.S was made some 200 years back and still has its ups and downs. Give the saudi people a break guys, its just been around 50 years since the first University was built here. I know and am familiar with some people’s lewd behaviours. But, if you spank your kid every time he makes a mistake then he has no chance of growing up into a respectable, responsible adult.

    No society is perfect. Lets not trample on each others customs, tradititons and cultures. Instead of talking about : what someones friend said to someone else, we can talk about our own personal experiences without using offensive language.

    I have lived in Saudi Arabia all my life. Believe me its not that easy. Saudi’s are very private people. Their lives are very simple. Women love to get together and gossip. Teenagers are crazy about anything American or European. Men love soccer and play station.
    Most of them pray 5 times a day and watch TV or go to a mall. These people hardly indulge in politics or philosophy. They are just trying to catch up with the rest of the world.

    Now about the fact that saudis ‘ask wierd, inappropriate questions’
    is just that, Saudi people are blunt. Whats on their mind is on their tongues.
    They never learned how to behave in front of women who are not related to them. They have been living in a segragated society all their lives. They get awkward in situations that they are unfamiliar with. And they damn well dont have any right to speak inappropriately to anyone.

    But can you blame them?

    S.A needs some 150 years more to become like any other country in the world.
    S.A has never had a Revolution, a Depression, or a War to give its society shape, maturity or seriousness of purpose. They have been living peacefully and luxuriously from day one.

    They need education and not criticism.
    They need time and not pressure.

  101. @sasha

    I personally think that was a very insightful response… Thank you. I had not looked at it like that before. I do think you are right in a lot of ways. The country is young and has never really had a “struggle” to test their mettle. It does need time to mature and maybe in many ways figure itself out. Sometimes learning curves are steep.

    However, I still think the men should treat any foreign lady like he would a Saudi sister. If he thinks he might get in hot water asking a Saudi those questions perhaps it would be best to apply that wisdom to any female he encounters. The women will certainly think more highly of them!

  102. @sadon

    Sorry you had to deal with such a jerk. Not all Americans are that insensitive or rude. Sigh…just goes to show young males from everywhere can say inappropriate things!

  103. @lynn
    you didn’t get, do you? :)

    @oby
    my respect :)

  104. While I might agree on some comments made about Saudi needing to grow still etc..I have to disagree on the comment that its still in its infancy and only 150 or 200 years old. The COUNTRY of Saudi Arabia may only be that old…but the Arab world has been around quite a bit longer than that…and the Quran has been with the Arabs for over 1400 years…plenty of time to “get it right” so to speak…all this talk about “change takes time” is nonsense….you had the perfect guidance in your midst…you had the walking talking Quran, the Prophet, showing you how to be Muslim then Arab. What more do you need then that?

    The fact that culture has reigned supreme in Saudi rather than Islamic practice is completely the fault of the Arabs who see their cultural practice more important than their Muslim practice….no other excuse…so to now come back all these years later and say…we are infants…we need time to change and get it right…well…gee…tell it to God…He’s the one that put faith in you that you would be the guiding light for the rest of the Muslim world…and world in general.

    The rest of the world doesnt need Saudis to change, Saudis need Saudi to change.

  105. Sadon, I’m sorry you didn’t get ME. I asked if you went to school in the south because it is a joke that they have sex with their siblings and that’s what you asked him in return. I didn’t get what my sisters might have to do with the story though. I don’t know why that ignoramus would go on about you marrying a cousin, I’d think he would think it strange that you can marry 4 wives before he’d make a big deal out of being able to marry cousins (even though most people consider 1st cousins the same as siblings). That was why I made that comment.

  106. coolred is right.

    You dont need another 150 years to change, you will not start from scretch by manufacturing the early Ford models of the car cuz that is how they did it, you just take the latest tech out there. With the right education system, libraries, a society that promotes education, extremely efforts required on manners, then things will move towards development.
    Further we need the competition in the market to develop and innovate. World dominating firms have touched every tiny itsy bitsy of the aspect of their firm to extract profits out of it (ie. increase sales and decrease costs). The competition is so tough that they literally spend tens of millions to gain .5% of market share (Coca Cola for example).
    You cannot make a car until you learn the basic mechanics. Look at UAE for example, they did not look at what they can do best, they just got everything that the rest of the world has done best. They developed really fast yet the mentality of the people in general remains the same. And now they fear of cultural extinction.
    You need to change how people think in order to bring new things to them. And you need to do things that suit you the best. American vs Japan for example, how things work in both countries has a huge difference, yet they’re competing with one another.
    Though I am not criticizing UAE, the new generation in the universities is really doing a great job in terms of balancing both sides.

  107. Ford and Japan worked together and Ford adopted (for at least one plant that I know of, probably more) the ‘team concept’ that the Japanese use. They didn’t say ‘that is the Japanese way! We can’t change our ways’
    In order to suceed you need to look at EVERYthing and take the best and avoid what hasn’t worked for others. The problem here seems to be convincing people to accept the reasons why they are not succeeding and make a change.

  108. But no one likes to hear that they need to change to meet other people who have grown beyond them. It is a difficult concept to grasp sometimes even though intellectually one might know it to be true. There is a lot of fear of change as well. but perhaps once those wheels are turning in the right direction…perhaps KAUST being a huge step in that direction…people will become more comfortable with the idea and realize it isn’t the end of everything as they know it.

    Having said that I do think a big dose of pragmatism helps…if it doesn’t work “our” way perhaps we should look at other avenues to progress and adopt some others.

  109. “With the right education system, libraries, a society that promotes education, extremely efforts required on manners, then things will move towards development.”

    The above statement is so very true. If one starts with revamping the education system at the primary level, that leads to reforms and greater ability to see things differently or have things done differently. King Abdullah is a wise leader who should never be underestimated. Some may say he has been slow or stalling on change but personally I think he has the “big” picture and it is crystal clear to him. KAUST is a HUGE baby step toward change and reform, particularly for education, educational opportunities and womens’ issues and rights. As KAUST gains acceptance (not the same as recognition) across the Kingdom then it will be much easier to initiate other changes whether it be with the way and practice of education in the Kingdom or even such issues on segregation (which has influenced in part on actions and ability to communicate by some), women driving, etc.

  110. Do u think when I said that they need 150 years to change i MEANT 150 years oh come on…I just meant that they need more time. They have been living in a man’s world for too long.
    Just imagine the moment you become ten years old, you are not allowed to sit or talk to any woman that is not related to you.
    And then you get all those hormonal changes in your body. Whe they travel outside or meet some one from a foreign country its like making your first stupid mistakes when you ask someone out. And when it comes out of a well grown man it really seems inappropriate.
    Hey oby, without generalizing, I think some Saudis treat not only foreign women, but even their own country women that way.
    They were bedus for goodness sake. Do you know that till now there are some women bedus (original desert dwellers) who still haven’t ever shown their faces to their husbands. Yeah it gets freaky sometimes but what can you do about it? You just have to watch and wait cause its hard to change a mindset.
    Its the culture formed and firmly set over many years so they need TIME to change that.

    And about talking inappropriately, Male Saudis are not the only males who are this way. I have lived in India for 1 year and believe me, sometimes it was hell. They stare, they tease, touch and pass really dirty comments. And I am sure there are many such stories from different parts of the world.
    There are good guys and bad guys everywhere.
    We have to stop stereotyping Saudis and be fair.
    There are for sure many gentlemen in Saudi Arabia, too.
    Saudis still have to learn and blend in their great teachings with the modern way of life. They have to find a balance. They have to be trusted. They have just lost their way. They do have a great past which goes back 1400 years, which got buried in the desert sands. They will revive it one day and the whole world will respect them for that.
    I still maintain my stand that Saudi Arabia is in its infancy.

  111. Oby….hormonal changes occur to boys AN girls all over the world since the beginning of time…AND they’ve all matured and learned to just get on with it when it comes to learning and dealing with the opposite sex. Saudi/Arabs/Muslims are using the religion of Islam in a way that prohibits normal human function when it comes to the opposite sex…and I DONT mean just sex…I mean normal human interaction…Muslims at the time of the Prophet obeyed the Islamic rules and STILL socialized, visited, had lunch with etc etc etc…they did it very well…so what went wrong? Why suddenly (and I say suddenly as in soon after he passed away) they forgot HOW TO BE good (as in respectable to woman etc) Muslims and STILL act normally with the opposite sex. Why? Why? Why?

    Simple question…what went wrong?

    Answer: culture culture culture….sooooo?

  112. Change doesnt necessarily take TIME…it takes DESIRE.

  113. Good point coolred, Muslims at our Prophet’s time DID socialize, spend time with the opposite sex – in a respectable fashion. They were not segregated like they are now.

  114. @Sadon: I am so sorry you had to endure such stupid teasing.

    @Coolred38: I agree with you all the way. I have another point. Even for a ”young” country. We live in different times. It is 2009 now, not 1709! There is everything to get Saudi Arabia into the twenty-first century in a year’s time! There is lots and lots of money: making things easy. This is a world of information and travel: books, sattelite, planes, computers, studying abroad and the internet.

    No there is one thing keeping Saudi Arabia a third world country. The people in power like it the way it is. And I do think Saudi Arabia is a third world country. Everything is facade. Pretty glittering buildings but no infrastructure, no roadrepairs. Everything is wonky beyond the facade. There are not even house numbers! Half of the time your post will go astray!

    And about blending in with modern life? People keep to the restrictive culture of the bedu. But have left behind the beautiful things of bedu-culture. Saudi is evolving backward. The culture of hijaz is destroyed, and nothing but restrictions came in place.

    @YQ: I agree with your post. One can also look at Japan. Japan embraced all new technology and culture after they at last opened their country. They were living in the middle ages, technology-wise. They did not loose their cultural identity, they made the new things their own. And they did it in a few years. Now, Japan is still at the forefront of technology.
    Nobody can take Japanese culture and believes from the Japanese. So why can’t Saudi do it?

  115. @Coolred38: you posted while I wrote. Again: excellent post!

  116. If you are mentally ill, you visit the doctor
    If you want worldly education, you goto professors
    If you want to learn how to fight, you goto those who have learned it and have experience.

    If you want to learn Islam, you goto those who have learned and practiced Islam.
    If you want to learn Islam, you goto those who have learned and practiced Islam.
    If you want to learn Islam, you goto those who have learned and practiced Islam.

    Considering the majority of Islamic scholars throughout the world, they all have certain views upon which ALL agree. Some might goto extremes by asking for suicidal attacks among Muslims or innocent people but that is not a part of the majority of the scholars.
    So I strictly believe that WE MUST look at the actions and lifestyle of these scholars in order to know or have an idea of what Islam was during the time of Prophet SAW. Because no matter from what race, country, culture they are from they all have MANY things that are in common. And ISLAM is the reason why those things are common. Like the turbine, dresses above the ankles, beards, etc.

    As far as the social interaction is concerned,

    Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty:
    That will make for greater purity for them:
    And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
    And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;
    That they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof;
    That they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty
    Except to their husbands their fathers their husbands’ fathers
    Their sons their husbands’ sons
    Their brothers or their brothers’ sons or
    Their sisters’ sons or their women or
    The slaves whom their right hands possess or
    Male servants free of physical needs or
    Small children who have no sense of the shame of sex;
    And that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.
    And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah that ye may attain Bliss.
    Qur’an 24:30-31

    I do not understand how two sexes now can interact with one another while following this Aayah. :-)

  117. I do not understand how two sexes now can interact with one another while following this Aayah. IN A WAY that they do today.***

  118. @Y O
    The Ayah means that the two sexes can mingle with limits of respect…
    This Ayah does not mean segregating men from women…it talks about Hijab…it says that women can show their beauty to the mentioned people only…
    Islam wants men to look at women with respect, not as sex tools….when you wear a thong for instance, what do you expect from a man? When you dress up in a sexually provoking manner, you are telling the men around you: look at my body and ignore my brain!

    Islam wants men to deal with women as their partners in life, not as their source of sexual pleasure!
    Unfortunately, Muslims who don’t practice Islam nor understand it well demean women and think of them as taboo creatures!

  119. Well please mention that it asks us to lower our gazes. Meaning NOT look at one another.

    Practically, do WE obey this command when interacting today? even 0.000001% of us?

  120. @Y Q
    It does not mean NOT to look at men at all…it means not to stare..not to look with lust or desire…
    there are tens of incidents where women and men mingled in Islam in a respectful manner….
    Looking at the other sex has many ways….you don’t look a man in the eye and keep staring….you don’t look at his body or his lips :) Same goes to men…In Islam, when you deal with the other sex, you deal with him/her as a human being, not as your bed partner….

  121. It doesn’t ”talk about hijab” it talks about not showing ”your ornaments”: at the time it was written that far more probably meant your breasts. Or see-through dresses.
    ”Hijab” is a modern interpretation. It’s what some scholars like it to say, so they make it up for us.

    And it still isn’t my problem if men are so stupid they can only look down my cleavage (were I to show it) and stop thinking (with their brain) That is their problem!
    Men are the ones who have to deal with it. And if somebody has to pay for it, it should be men who should pay for it. Wear blinkers, black glasses, with only a tiny hole for seeing your way, stay indoors, Whatever.

    And what is provocative? The more you cover bodies, the more provocative they become. In nineteenth century Europe a woman’s ankle was the subject of erotic fetish.
    I think it’s provocative to drape a nine-year old girl in a black abaya thereby proclaiming her a sex-object which needs to be covered.

    If Islam wants men to look at women as persons, not a sex tool, then Saudi Arabia is really far removed from Islam!
    And as you can see in the Wicked West, the majority of men can deal with, and see women as, other intelligent human beings.
    It’s in Saudi Arabia where the majority of men are apparently categorically inept at ”normal” behaviour.

  122. @Aafke
    No, dear you have the interpretation very wrong..it talks about the limits … ornaments here means beauty…
    it does not mean at ALL breasts…I wonder where have you read this disgustingly misleading explanation!

    dear Aafke
    I just ask you to be very honest with yourself….. wear a thong and deal with an American man….see how he looks at you…..and…dress up decently (no hijab involved) and see how differently he looks at you…

    I agree with you that Saudi Arabia in some cases does not practice Islam at all….Islam is something and Saudi Arabia is something else…please try to get this across!

    by the way, in the West, particularly in America where i have lived and study for many years, men can’t deal with it all the time….that’s why there are high rape statistics …high rate of pregnant teenagers…and a new fatherless America…the girls always pay the price …unfortunately!

    Believe it or not, your men look at us the same way our men look at you…
    When I was in the States, I wasn’t wearing Hijab yet….i was looked upon as a sexual enigma,,,,, I honestly felt like a beauty queen….when i went back home, I discovered I was just another ordinary girl :) or maybe :(

  123. Maha, well, if you are a radiant beauty you just will have to learn to live with it! ;)
    I don’t know about America, I’m from Europe, but I know enough not to try your proposed experiment! :oops:
    No I’m all for dressing decently! :D

    But as to rape, hum, I think that rape, as an act, or crime, really has more to do with patriarchy, with power, men considering themselves above women, and having ”rights” over women, as what women wear.
    I really do.
    You see; very decently dressed women get raped, ugly women get raped, old women get raped, little girls get raped, the point is: women get raped. Not for what they wear, or how they behave. That is generally the lame excuse of the rapist. No women are raped because men can do it. Rapists are very sick men.
    And in prison, where there are no women, they rape each other.
    I truly think it has to with men, power, and the abuser feeling superior.

  124. Yes I do agree rape is more about control and power than it is about sex. If you read the studies on it over and again psychologists say that is the case.

    As for teen pregnancies it is not all about what a girl wears. It is about peer pressure, her home environment in some cases is not very good, and she thinks that this boy “loves” her and fins out later, too late, that he was not very invested in the relationship.

    Thankfully, from what I have read it seems that teen pregnancy is declining somewhat..but still that doesn’t help the girls who are single mothers due to a poor choice.

    Maybe I am a bit cynical, but i think men being men no matter what a woman wears they can find sexiness in it.

  125. I have enjoyed reading all the differing views and the questions raised. I also would like to recognize Shasha and how much I enjoyed reading her candid views and experience.

    I had to chuckle at the ready quip about being Bedu’s! Why? I like Bedu! (smile)

  126. Maha, you said ‘Believe it or not, your men look at us the same way our men look at you…’ What does that mean? Did they ask you how many men you’d slept with? Did they ask to touch you? Did they ask if you would sleep with them? Did they stare at you provocatively? Did they touch you inappropriately?

    And you said: ‘When I was in the States, I wasn’t wearing Hijab yet….i was looked upon as a sexual enigma,,,,, I honestly felt like a beauty queen….when i went back home, I discovered I was just another ordinary girl’

    Enigma? Is that really the word you want to use here?What, exactly made you feel like a beauty queen? Are you sure that your feelings were not a result of your upbringing? I’m guessing that since you came from a land where a woman’s natural state has been so sexualized that she has to be covered by abaya and niqab you WOULD feel very sexual being uncovered but the men here wouldn’t think that your hair being uncovered was anything at all but normal.

  127. Muslims like to refer to women as “pears” and say that when you have a precious pearl you want to cover it up so nobody can see it but you…Im not much into jewelery but as far as I know…pearls are meant to be seen not hidden…otherwise what would be the whole point of having one? We buy pearls and cars and fashionable clothes (or stylish hijabs and abayas) etc cause it makes us feel good…we dont buy them to hide them in the cupboard. So if Muslims insist to refer to women as a particular object and that is why she needs to be covered (hidden)…please dont say pearl or anything that is generally put on display when owned…it sort of defeats your analogy.

  128. “pearls”…oops

  129. @Lynn
    I was raised in America….and yes their questions were something of the sort…do you have a boy friend? Are Saudi women really hot and ho**** all the time?
    some American men think that because Saudi women and Arab women cannot have premarital sex are dying to have sex with any male creature..there are also many other questions that are inappropriate to say……some questions were out of curiosity…others were out of the desire to have a relation with a girl of a (different taste) as one of my friends had put it…..

    I believe these last two points apply very much to our men…

    Feeling as an enigma was not due to the way i was brought up because both of my parents are highly educated and they’ve raised upon being proud of my personality as an educated woman, not as a sex tool….
    But in the States I was treated as a provoking mystery …. I think American men like to feel they are discovering something that is hidden or unknown to them…this makes them very excited….
    And believe me I’ve had a few marriage proposals which really shocked me because I know very well from many of my American girlfriends that they’re having a hard time getting their boyfriends to commit to marriage….
    Anyway, all what i’ve said was 20 years ago when i was ….and Alhamdullilah, when we returned to Saudi , I got married the right Saudi man who is rare to find among men who treats me as a human being and who is very proud of my mentality and my achievements at work…

  130. Maha dont you know? the Americans you met were NOT Americans, it is all YOUR fault for making such so called Americans your friend. They are only 0.000000001% of the population. That cannot be true, your American friends are only 15 years old and they are an insult to America, cuz all Americans are angels with all the right feelings for the girls. You are lying…

    All these first hand experiences that you are mentioning are lies and you have no witnesses. Somehow members of this group KNOW exactly what happened with you 20 years ago as if they were there.

    Oh and when it comes to Saudi Arabia? HEY HEYYYYY we do not discuss anything good about them cuz this group is NOT for that. It is based on discussing the problems in Saudi Arabia and we appreciate NOTHING neither do we take any course of ACTION once the problems are discussed. (I wonder then how come it pulls out some good stuff about America every now and then since it is neither based on that). EVERY CULTURE must be American, every brain must think like Americans, and if NOT then I am sorry but your society NEEDS A CHANGEEE real bad..

  131. people here CANNOT hear a word against America yet FORCE Saudis to accept the faults in their society upto such an extent that even the Islamic laws are rejected, insulted, modified for their own means.

  132. YQ, did you have a stroke or something?

    Maha you said: ‘But in the States I was treated as a provoking mystery’

    That sounds even more odd since you said you were raised here. Did you live somewhere where there were no dark skinned or foreign women or something? Just sounds so wierd, even for 20 years ago.

  133. no Lynn, it isn’t stroke (surely he wouldn’t be typing), it sounds more like epiphany…yeah, pretty sure that’s the word.

    YQ, I must commend you for being so truthful and objective. Surely it’s a rarity these days. Had you been a Muslim and said what you did, surely you’d have gotten more then a question about stroke. *chuckle*

  134. Looking more closely at your posts, there is a chance though that you are a Muslim, in which case Lynns’ response is lacking in lashing out the “how dare you’s”. Lynn, no pun intended.

  135. Abu Abdullah,
    Why is it that Saudi men think that American women marry their Saudi ‘brothers’ for money? How much money do Saudis have when they are on scholarship or are students? NONE! Most move back in with their parents when they return to Saudi!
    Most American women, on the other hand, have their own careers and usually their own homes or apartments by their mid to late twenties….and no Americans that I have met (except for 1 second wife) would have come here or stayed here for their husband’s money….unless perhaps children were involved.
    The American expats that I know all came here for love…leaving our families and friends on the other side of the world. And the majority of our husbands told us it would be for only 2 years when we agreed to marry them and come to KSA!!!
    If you really think we came here for money, then, tell me Abu Abdullah…. What’s your price?
    How much do you think it would cost you to bring an American (non-muslim) woman (raised in the states) here who would really love you and have your children and stay with you for say….30 years?
    Take your number and ask the single women here on this blog if they would be willing to do it, or at what price they would be willing to marry any Saudi here and leave their families… I’d be interested to know… Carol, ask your single American friends and let us know!

  136. BTW …. Be sure to tell them that in case of divorce, they have to give everything back…and perhaps even pay you to obtain the divorce….not to mention the fight of trying to take the children out of the country.

  137. @Rose,

    Never mind the fact that not all Saudis have money. Per capita, the average American has much more money than the average Saudi.

  138. @rose,
    very true, I would follow my saudi spouse to the moon if required. and thruthfully his nationality doesn’t matter, i think i would love him the same if he was american/french/saudi/mexican or anything else. It’s the person, his nature , not the religion/nationality that was the attraction.
    As for money , nope no oil well in his back yard :-)
    and i went with him to saudi since i thought it would expose my kids to their fathers culture and my spouse could enjoy some time with his family, nothing more , nothing less.It’s just another place, we would have tried to do the same if he was say spanish and we had an oppurchunity to be near his family .

  139. The majority of Saudi is quite poor.

    And no amount of money is enough to loose all freedom. No amount of momeny is enough to be officially designated an imbicil who needs to be goverend by men at the smallest detail of live. No amount of money is enough to alleviate the pain of being told you will be replaced by a younger, prettier #2.
    No amount of money is enough to be subjected to the whims of a spoilt childish brat.
    With an on/off switch. (pun to American Bedu’s other post)

    And even if you had a lot of money. What’s the use in Saudi? You can’t buy a sportscar and drive it around. You can’t use it to travel. You can’t hire a pop-band and have a party. You can’t do sports. You can’t use it to build a business for yourself. (at least not without the permission and help of a MAN) You can’t do anything in Saudi but shop at an expensive mall.

    And let that be the one thing I find very boring.

  140. @Lynn
    It sounds so weird because you never heard of it … or maybe you never chose to see the other side of the story….

    Ask any Saudi or Arab girl about the interest of American men in them, and she will almost give you the same answer….
    Even a few years ago, I was asked almost the same questions…

    @Y Q
    I can’t agree more!
    When Americans rape, they have mental or psychological problems, but when Saudis rape, they are not sick…they are just lustful and oppressed!
    So, in conclusion, a huge number of Americans are sick, I mean the rapists of course….but I wonder why they have such a sickness?

    I just like all Americans to know that as women in Saudi Arabia (wearing hijab or not), we feel safe to walk alone in the night….the idea of being raped never crossed my mind here in Jeddah or in Makkah…..
    I feel secure and safe in my country more than any place on earth…and I am not being bias…
    thanks

  141. It is very interesting when you “put the shoe on the other foot” and ask Americans about Saudi Arabia and Saudi, especially when speaking with an American that has not been to the Kingdom.

    And I for one would be curious to hear more from the Saudis who follow this blog what kind of questions they’ve been asked by Americans and others too.

    Not to encourage YQ necessarily but of course America has its own sets of problems. I don’t think anyone is being blind to that at all.

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