Conformity is expected in Saudi Arabia. It is part of the tradition and culture and deeply embedded. Those who do not conform to the expected norms risk becoming ostracized from the Saudi society as well as the extended families suffering a loss of face. This is especially true for women in Saudi Arabia and the repercussions can be great for those who did not adhere to their expected role.
For example, take a young Saudi woman who has contact with an unrelated male before marriage. While the young man and woman may not have committed an immoral activity such as being alone together, they may have exchanged photos at some point. But what can happen if the relationship does not end in marriage? What risks does that pose to the young woman? No one would likely blink an eye if a young man’s photographs were to be circulated in any way but if the woman’s photo is circulated and seen by unrelated men, her reputation is severely tarnished.
Saudi gazette recently had an article of how a newly married woman and her husband were harassed by other young men who were circulating pictures of the new wife. The harassment took place because the woman refused to give in to demands by one of the young men to resume a relationship. In this case, the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice (the Hai’a) intervened and arrested the group of young men for their actions. However the new husband elected to divorce his wife on the revelation that she had had a previous relationship before their marriage. The young woman will now have to live with this very public scorn similar to one wearing a scarlet letter on their chest or in Saudi Arabia, on the abaya.
So what can a woman do if she has placed herself in such a position? It’s ironic. A young man in Saudi Arabia may have multiple relationships whether inside or outside the Kingdom and no one faults him. He is growing up and becoming a man. But if a woman happens to send a photo of herself to an unrelated man, she will lose standing and her pious reputation destroyed if that becomes publicly known. The Hai’a have pledged to track down and apprehend any young men who attempt to blackmail or threaten young women. Does this in turn mean that a woman could turn to the Hai’a and expect them to assist or protect her without the social and cultural repercussions? Could she ask them for assistance without fear of her dark secret becoming known to her family or others?
On one hand justice is served to the young men who are apprehended by the Hai’a for blackmailing a young woman. But on the other hand does the Saudi society view that justice is also served to the young woman when she is divorced from her husband?
nb: After writing the above, I discovered these articles which relate to the topic and merit reading:
http://saudiwoman.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/love-in-ksa/
http://www.alriyadh.com/2009/06/30/article441244.html#comments
Filed under: Charity, culture, Dress, Freedoms, friendship, gender, relationships, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, Saudi education, Saudi Living, Uncategorized, Women Issues Tagged: | abaya, culture, culture shock, customs, gender, gender issues, KSA, marriage, Relationship, romance, Saudi, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, women
i had read this article! i pity for the lady
for not being fault of hers, she has to face the brunt for entire life.
atleast her husband (who knew her mental status) could have stood by her
i can only pray for the welfare of hapless people like this lady
gurudEva dayaa karo deena jane
I am so glad to see that the man’s honor was restored — not!
Again the double standards surface. The reality being
that nether men nor women who have illicit
relationships before marriage should be considered
viable partners for those who HAVE remained chaste.
If women are shamed, so should men, not necessarily
in that the same method would affect them, but it
would certainly have its effects shown when visiting
a family with the prospect of their son marrying their
daughter. Once he has been known publicly for a
good while, news will have filtered to almost anyone
within the city ( let alone district or neighborhood )
he lives in, and he would find it difficult then. Happened
to a man I knew in Aramco once. He was not the
most religiously observant, and why he chose to
visit the most religious family on our block, lol, I will
never know. I’m guessing our dear neighbor asked
him a few questions and didnt like the answers and
that was the end of that. Several years later, I see him
in Aramco and he had taken a Western wife. Mind you,
I’m not saying western women are not chaste, far
from it, I’m certain there are many in fact who value
good morals, but the point is that they would be less
inclined to care about ” past ” relationships as
people here would.
Some people need to understand that when you marry a person you marry everything that they are nd everything that they are not.You merry their past present and their future and if someone lives for such a petty thing as photos He’s not worth crying over for.You must actually shut the door.I must say this place is not fair at all to women
Aziz, but I think we need to make clear what each of us actually considers to be a ”relationship” the word can be applied to any kind of contact, but in my sphere, having some chats and giving somebody a photo, would not be considered as ”having a relationship”, merely an aquaintance or friend. Perhaps boyfriend. As a relationship this would be considered as completely innocent. When I am talking about a ”relationship” between men and women I would think of far more involvement, or even living together, having sex, planning to spend the rest of your lives together.
Do you consider talking and giving away a portrait to be a full relationship? equal to moving in with another person? I mean do you think it warrants the same level of importance? Because it clearly seems to in the general publics eye in Saudi Arabia.
Bedu I cannot click the links you put up, but there was a very good piece on tribal marriage, and the revolting marriage of six healthy Saudi girls to their Aids infected cousins. Contemplating this crime against humanity really makes me sick.
I thought it was very well written.
http://arabnews.com/?page=13§ion=0&article=124654&d=20&m=7&y=2009
Aafke- I just read that article, thank you for sharing but OMG how absolutely HORRIBLE!!!!! The writer is correct, in allowing such marriages they are only helping to spread it. wow
and Bedu- I think that husband is a jackass.
I think the term “relationship” needs to be more defined. In a some societies, even mere friendly verbal contact could be termed as a relationship. The only way to avoid problems in the future would be for these young men and women to talk to their future spouses , hence preventing the divorce issues later.
If the women get punished by going to the Hai’a then slowly no one will go to them, maybe they can keep the name anonymous? I doubt it .
personally i think this is taking things too far – so what if your wife talked to a few men before she got married? so what if they have her picture, there’s plenty floating around in cyber space. How much more insecure could these guys get?
Again i would say not all saudi men think that way. Mine got an intro to me thru my good friend ( male) and then turned his charm on me
so some use their spouse friendship to suit them.
Aafke – that article is too horrible to comtemplate. It violated most of the medical ethics i know of. Why would someone agree to acquire a disease and even if they do where is the mom. Which mom will condone this ?
This all goes back to appearances and it’s value over substance in Saudi/Middle Eastern society.
It doesnt really matter whether anything happen in this relationship or not. If it APPEARS that something immoral happened, that is enough.
regarding future course of action, that lady would not be accepted by any body in that country – she has to leave to some other country – but is it so simple? these are the situations which lead to many suicides
As a saudi girl living in the USA, these articles stay in my mind like a morality play. I know I haven’t done anything “wrong”, ie, been sexually involved with males, but it is always always always hanging over my head that the appearance of impropriety is as damaging as the actual deed. I have chosen to continue to live my life making “relationships” with all sorts of people, other nationalities, religions, and, yes, gender(s). As a result, I have grown and learned about life and the world. However, I would be exceedingly naive not to be cautious with my life…not just because my own morals prohibit me from licentious behavior, but because I can cause harm to my family.
Yes, my morals are quite different from those of the saudi society I am from, but I know and respect that difference.
I am not so worried about the actual “harm” to my reputation (writing on this blog) for instance. I have been begged time and again to send pictures to people, which I will not do. I cannot prevent someone taking my picture without me knowing. But, in my heart, I know I have done nothing wrong.
It is the double standard in Saudi. A female can get her life ruined along with a major impact to her family for the smallest indiscretion.
A male can perform many acts including go out of the country in sex tourism trips, drink, do drugs, take bribes etc. without much of a reputation hit. Certainly not to the level where it is a life changing thing. About the only major reputation impact can occur if a male committed a crime like theft…
All the comments are very well said! And especially in Saudi which as stated…. it does not matter whether or not an act which could be viewed as inappropriate took place but if the perception that such an action took place, the reputation can be tarnished.
Aziz–yes the cultural double standard overrides the religious egalitarianism.
Radha–indeed the article on the women marrying their HIV+ cousins leaves ethical clinicians, and medical ethicists stupefied. As I commented when this was raised on another blog, the most disturbing thing about the article for me was that, knowing the men were HIV positive, there was no prevention in place (safer sex) to prevent sero-conversion, becoming HIV positive, in 6 months. Since 6 months is the time it takes for a reliable blood test result to detect the presence of the virus after initial contact, presumably they got it on their wedding nights, honeymoon, or close to that. Since certain types of sexual activity are more likely to transmit HIV, I also wonder what they were doing. Definitely they weren’t using condoms, which is another part not addressed by the article even elliptically. They seem to be behaving as if their lives were normal, which means HIV positive babies, and often grandparents eventually raising their orphaned grandchildren.
You know, this brings back a bad memory. When I was living in Saudi and married to my ex, all of a sudden, men were calling our home and asking for me. My ex would say “no, she is not here, who is this?” ; and almost always after that question the men hang up!
Well, one night, my ex decided to use his brain and ask one of the guys who called how did he get the number. Apparently, the guy said, my name was written on this wall in the street with my number on it. Needless to say, this was a very bad experience. The situation was not very good between my ex and I at the time this was happening. Because I was a woman, I was automatically the guilty party without any rationalization what so ever from my ex!
To this day, I have no idea how my name got there and why would any body want to do something like this period. Some people in my ex’s family had an incorrect perception about me and other Saudi females who were raised in the West. Thus, I do believe that because of this stereotype, someone from his family put my name on the wall. May God forgive them.
Anyway, it really is sad that there is a double standard in Saudi Arabia and especially one that has NOTHING to do with ISLAM. As I am sure many of you know, a man and a woman is accountable both EQUALLY under God’s laws.
Again, such accounts that occur in the kingdom only show how misconstrued Islam has become by the people. So instead of following EXACTLY what God says, people pick what they want out of the Qur’an and change it. Example of the so many Hadiths out there that most are false and bogus in their interpretations.
This is a very interesting post and one that raises awareness as to, again and again, how women in the kingdom often fall victims of the culture.
That is a horrible sick thing to do! Really low!
That must have been such a horrible experience!
And how stupid of your ex, yeah, sure, you’d go out in the middle of the night with a couple of spraycans hidden under your abaya, and start spraying your name and phone-number on the walls. What an idiot. Nice to have as your protector and helpmeet. thuh.
There is always a double standard on this issue. In the U.S., when I was very young, everyone knew which girls had a “bad reputation”, while the same attitude wasn’t applied to the boys. (And what those girls did to get the “bad reputation” is accepted behavior now.)
Still, I think a lot of families wouldn’t want a man marrying their daughter if he was known to drink, do drugs and/or go on sex tourism trips. I certainly wouldn’t marry a man like that, and if I had daughters, I wouldn’t let them marry anyone like that.
Fair or not, the young women need to be careful, because they have the most to lose. They think they’re “in love”, but usually the man is playing, and when he’s ready to get married, he doesn’t want someone who’s been playing too. While she thinks she’s his special love, he’s talking to his friends about her and passing around her picture… and that is a big deal, especially if she doesn’t go out with her face uncovered.
@ Nally
its heartening to read your writing
even i never dreamt such things would happen
my prayers with the almighty for your ever welfare
gurudEva dayaa karo deena jane
@Munaqabah,
“Still, I think a lot of families wouldn’t want a man marrying their daughter if he was known to drink, do drugs and/or go on sex tourism trips. I certainly wouldn’t marry a man like that, and if I had daughters, I wouldn’t let them marry anyone like that”
Well, I guess I am the exception to the rule. LOL My uncle (fathers side) and his wife (who happens to be my ex’s sister as well) were the ones who married me off to this ex of mine!
I know, it is hard to believe but it does happen obviously! Funny, they knew his background (in and out of rehab, drug addict, LOSER) yet still, they thought he was a perfect fit for me.
In fact, there was a time when the ex (on one of his drunken/stoned days) himself was laughing and telling me how messed up it was for an uncle to give away his brothers’ daughter to someone like himself (I guess you can say the ex had some kind of conscience). He continued to tell me it was messed up especially for the fact that that same uncle was smoking weed with him while talking to him about marrying me!!! LOL
Here, I guess you can say, not only was my uncle a non-God fearing (fill in the blank…LOL) but also a sicko who also had this misconception that it would be OK with me since I was westernized!!! In fact, my ex’s mother in law, used to tell me that I SHOULD know how to deal with her son!! (((Yea, with all the experience I had dealing with druggies!! LOL)))
You might be wondering why I am laughing but I am. It is too crazy and pathetic not to laugh!
oh poor Nally — it’s so common for families to expect a young woman to completely change her husband’s habits…like marriage would straighten anyone out!!
I wish I had a dollar for every friend I have whose husband continues his bachelor ways.
@Nally – wow…that is awful. However I am confident that with your spirit you have since found yourself a very worthy man of your attentions! (smile)
Nally, that’s really horrible. I don’t want to be nosy, so you’re welcome to ignore this – but what about your parents? Weren’t they involved?
@aafke: Indeed beyond doubt that is sick.
But i did hear about a legislation in saudi arabia making it mandatory to have premarital hiv tests, etc. check this
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=100579&d=30&m=8&y=2007
Wonder what happened to it.
@nally: am glad that you are now having a new life…
Abu Abdullah–Interesting article, thanks. The law did take effect and has resulted in the detection of a number of HIV cases. The author of the other article was expressing concern that , more than the problems with the “consent” of these girls, the government had reviewed the marriages, on a case by case basis, as provided for by the law, and had consented to them taking place. Hence, the problem with the idea of a government encouraging transmission of HIV rather than preventing it, no matter what the tribal custom, or what “consents” were given.
Here is an article by the same author as yours, written 6 months later, showing the initial results of the implementation of the law:
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=105463&d=9&m=1&y=2008
But, AbuAbdullah, they knew these men had aids. For some really sick reasons they condemned six healthy decent young women to sickness and a death by AIDS, including the very large risk of producing AIDS riddled children, just so these selfish, stupid, sinning, bastards could get a wife and the neighbours won’t raise questions.
The story shows a contempt and disdain for women and their wishes and welfare which makes me sick.
Once a society sinks down to those depths I think it’s so degraded it’s lost. It’s only the oil-money which keeps Saudi Arabia floating. As a society and culture it’s sick and degraded to the core.
@Aafke:
Well, partially i agree with you, yes these women where indeed forced to get married. And i would also like to cite that the people involved in this marriage could also be accused for culpable homicide (thats what i feel). And also if these women (brushing aside their tribal loyalties, etc) approach the court, i am sure their marriage can be voided and nulled. Such forced marriages have been voided in the past by the court, also the guardians had been punished for the forced marriages.
But what i had like to differ with you is the following sentence: “As a society and culture it’s sick and degraded to the core.”
First of all such incidents may probably account for 5% or less and it would be naive to blame the whole society and the culture.
First of all if you check out the marriage facts from India and some countries from indian subcontinent, even there too we have cases of Dowry Harrassment for Women, also there have been cases where brides had been killed by the inlaws because they did not bring enough dowry.
But i am not implying that such cases in saudi arabia must be over looked, infact i would like to have legislation (or fatwa) banning marriages of HIV infected people.
And accusing the whole society or blaming it on the whole culture would be a very negative way of portraying your view points.
I certainly agree that such marriages should be prohibited. It really makes me wonder if these marriages made it to the attention of Dr. Abdullah Al-Rabeeah, Minister of Health, for I cannot imagine him remaining silent on such a travesty.
Abu Abdallah–I agree with most of what you said. It is regrettable (to say the least) that these marriages occurred.
However, responsible HIV+ people who do practice safer sex, and who are marrying truly willing partners, including other HIV+ ones should not be prevented from marrying. Babies born of HIV+ mothers are not always HIV+ and often clear the virus within one year if they are. Obgyn now has alot of experience with this.
Police warn of teenage ‘sexting’ (in the UK)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/technology/newsid_8181000/8181443.stm
“A worrying number of teenagers are swapping intimate or sexually explicit photos, called “sexts”, on their mobiles, police say.
“The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre says it receives daily reports of harassment after private photos have been circulated…”
Thanks for the enlightenment munaqabah Looks like saudi arabia is not the only place this happens. Worse things do happen else where.
@aafke: going by your line of argument, could i say that as “a society and culture in raising young kids UK is worse”???
Well i wouldn’t say that coz unlike others i can make a distinction between individual practices and the culture of a land…
Carol:
Sometimes i do have a feeling this blog is not moderated enough for veering off topic and going into outright Saudi Bashing.
This post has been picked up by the Chicago Sun Times:
http://www.post-trib.com/sports/blogentries/index.html?bbPostId=B6kcqoGH9Pf8Bzn7nRZ5sNNoCzDtqIKa8ZTflB5RMFHtda7W7
why are you writtting a whole article about a simple incident? why are you generalizing? why do u take the less unfortunate cases and thrive on it? as little and as these situations are there are many saudi men and women who are justify the ideal human being on this earth. do u want everyone to have the freedom of boyfriend girlfriend crap? is that your idea of freedom? stop running after small incidents and male them seem they occur all over the country. just cause you can not understand or dont want to understand certain societies doesnt give u the right to critisize them. did u know that there are american who see it is their right to marry more then 1 wife and it exists. did you know that there are women in america who dont have sexual relations until marriage. did u know that as so much of our society isnt comprhended by u go back to america in the 20s and see how they used to be.
Sultan,
Thank you for your comment and sharing your views. I believe you are brand new to my blog for if you choose to read other postings you will see that I strive to touch upon many subjects and aspects of life and traditions in Saudi. Some are very positive and some may not be. That’s part of the life.