Receiving a dowry upon marriage Is not typical in the Western culture. Therefore many western women who marry a Saudi are uncomfortable at the concept of receiving a dowry from their husband. Some will say it makes them feel like they have been “bought” or that they would rather have him teach her Islam and how to read the Quran instead. For some Saudi men, these viewpoints of Western women make them even more attractive as a wife for a bride’s dowry in Saudi Arabia can be very costly and in some cases, prohibit the man from being able to afford to marry.
However the dowry for the bride is also a symbol of the groom’s respect and honor for her. And it is also her security in the event that the husband at some point may decide to take another wife. Very few Saudi women would reject or turn down receiving a dowry. But some Saudi men are aware that the dowry is not a typical western custom and will not push hard on the western woman to receive a dowry.
It is true that in some cases high dowry’s have made marriage cost prohibitive for some Saudis and that may be part of the reason they find themselves looking outwards to a western woman for marriage.
But the key points to remember in closing this post is that the dowry is a bride’s right. The groom should offer a dowry to the women. The woman should not be shy or reluctant to accept a dowry. And if a western woman comes to Saudi and would tell Saudi family or friends that she turned down or forfeited a dowry, she will be viewed as naïve.
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Hmmm . . .Bedu. I had not heard of this type of dowry before. I have only understood a dowry to be money that comes with the bride from her family. Conversely I’ve heard of a bride price where the bride’s family is paid money by the groom. It does make sense for a woman to have some money of her own to ensure she can take care of herself and her children in the case of an “unfortunate” event. In a country where women have little power outside the home, it does make sense.
The dowry as well as protection for the wife in case of estrangement, or divorce, can be seen as a social insurance policy in Muslim countries which expect it to be exactly that, as it was intended, and where often there are few social supports provided by the government. Investing the part received on marriage, and having the rest delayed to be paid on divorce are good ideas.
@Annie – Oh yes, In Saudi Arabia it is indeed standard and expected for the groom to provide a dowry to his bride.
I did not receive a dowery…nor was I offered one..nor was I made aware that its obligatory for a Muslim man to pay one to his bride. Found that out much later in the marriage when I finally met some women and they enquired as to my “asking price”.
When I asked husband how come I didnt get a dowery or even know it was required…he said Muslim men dont have to pay it to nonmuslime women…well of course that isnt true as I found out with a bit of research. Asked again…then he said he bought me a ring for the wedding …so that was sufficient. Actually WE bought me a ring…I paid half…sooooo….hmmm?
Anyhow, its typical of western women not to feel comfortable accepting a dowery but if they only knew what they were potentially stepping into if going to his country…they would not only accept it…but put it in an account with nice returns.
I wish the idea was universal. With divorce being so rampant it is good for a woman to have her own money. Still the best advice I have heard is ” Chose wisely, treat kindly”
Yes the concept of dowry exists in a lot of countries. In India it is the other way round wherein a lady/her family has to pay the groom/his family. But increasingly with progress and development and better literacy rates , this custom is slowly dying down in the cities. I have seen more and more educated women refusing to give out dowries and willing to accept life partners only those who do not believe in these archaic customs.
@ Bedu,
The concept of dowry is actually viewed negatively in the western understanding of Islamic marriage because it is viewed as that the groom buys the bride. In fact, dowry has many social benefits for the bride. the first one is that it will show how much her groom loves his bride and show that the groom is serious to get marry with her and build a family. The second thing is that dowry will help the bride if something happen in the future between them in case of divorce as she can depends on this money to survive because in Islam, men are Quamoon (supporters) to women and they should be responsible to provide them with care, food, accommodation etc (revise Ayat Al qwamah for more information). so in case of divorce, who is going to support the lady who has no financial support? Dowry also makes the husband more reluctant to divorce his wife because he will think of the money (moaakhar) (rest of the dowry that he should pay in case that the husband is the one who want the divorce). And this will give him time to reconcile with his wife and curse “demon”, though I think the demon has nothing to do with them LOL
I disagree with the last point that you stated when you said that “the bride who does not accept dowry is viewed naïve”. Actually, she will be viewed as a lady who sacrificed for her hubby and it is really appreciated by her family, his family and Himself. Also if she does not accept the dowry, this will make her husband always have the feelings that she did something for him and this will make him feel more shy to stand against her in the future. But everything depends on the couple. For example, if someone is so rich, he will say OKKK, this is your money. So the concept of dowry is coming in the context that the wife is dependant on her husband. I do not know who shall pay dowry in case that the bride is rich? We need to ask a Muslim jurist about who is Quwwam in this case because one of the conditions for quam is that he should take care of the financial issues regarding family expenses.
Salam
The women who ask to be taught the Quran instead of a dowry are in my view playing the piety role. Just enrol yourself in a course and demand what is your right.
Medina–an interesting and enlightening comment. For an Islamic marriage to be made legally their must be a dowry or mahr from the groom to the bride even if it is 1sr, and she and her mahrem must accept the dowery or mahr. Otherwise the contract is not legal or binding, and there is no marriage. Where Western women are not informed about this, the husband has most likely stated to the person performing the marriage that there has been a mahr, the amount, and that it was paid out in full. That is what will be recorded, and so no money will be due later. This is true even if the wife is rich and/or supporting him, eg. though his studies.
While I’m not a jurist I am married Islamically and I have read the works of Fadela Sebti, a Moroccan lawyer, including to the Moroccan Supreme Court. She has written on this in both non-fictional and fictional forms in French and English: Vivre musulmane au Maroc (non-fiction); and the novel Moi Mireille, lorsque j’étais Yasmina (Le Fennec, 1995), specifically on Western women marrying blindly, including believing falsely they must convert to Islam. On this topic of the mahr, Islam is clear, and the obligation does not vary from country to country.
A woman who’s marrying a Muslim man should have a wali to negotiate the contract, because she might be embarassed to demand a certain amount, or even to ask pertinent questions to get information about the man and his family. For Muslims, these things are normal and expected.
The mahr can be anything or any amount of money, but if she doesn’t know what to ask, then she should find out what’s standard for women similar to her in the same area.
And having part of it up front and part deferred is a good idea.
According to what I’ve read of Shafii fiqh, it’s sunna to mention the mahr in the contract, but if it’snot mentioned, then it’s considered to be the amount typically received by similar brides.
Even if a woman is very wealthy, she still gets a mahr; in fact, she’ll usually get a big one!
Medina, I think that American Bedu is right; a Western women who doesn’t get any dowry, or a very low one (and that includes many of us) will be viewed as naive – simply meaning that she didn’t know that she should have asked for more.
Mahr (dowry) is a very good practice enshrined in Islam guaranteeing the Social Security of the bride.
But off late here in middle east we find that some women turn out to be way too greedy in demanding exorbitant dowry, far more then they would actually need in case of an unfortunate event.
If a Lady demands a exorbitant dowry and if at all any guy ends up paying up the big figure, then i believe the guy may just treat the wife as just as any other commodity, coz in such marriages money is a important factor than love.
@ Chiara,
Thanks for your comment. It is well stated according to the traditional jurisprudence.
My point is about the “ayah of quama” according to its interpretation by Ibn Katheer who stated that men are better than women but he did not mention in which terms men are better? which I propose that he means that men are physically stronger than women, hence, men are better than women psychically, especially at works that need strong psychical bodies. The second half of the ayat al quamah is that men are quaam because of the amount of money they spend on their wives. so here is the question, what if the woman is rich and she is the one who became “quaam” and she does not need to be strong physically to gain money? Is she going to be the quaam or quaam should be male conditioned? Let me make it more clear and I apologize for this example, in time of slavery, can the male slave be quaam? If you review Islamic jurisprudence, you will find that slave can not be quaam if he marries a non slave lady. So, gender is not a condition for quammah. And the condition and the criterion for quammah is the “estittaah” physical, mental, etc ability. That is what I propose personally. So the main question is still raised, who is the quaam in the 21th century?and who should pay the dowry?
my last point, I agree with you completely about that naming dowry or paying dowry is a strong condition in Islamic marriage without it Islamic marriage is illegal. And here is another question, is the “Esmah” male right or quaam’s right? So, all these concepts are still controversial to me because I am questioning the ayat of quama which is the origin of dowry.
salam
@munaqabah
I agree with bedu that western ladies “must” ask for “dowry” because they need it more than anyone else especially if they move to a country where Islamic law runs the state. but I am speaking “socially” about the reaction of people to ladies who do not ask for dowry. and that is why I disagree with bedu in this point because I believe that ladies who do not ask for high dowry are very appreciated socially by her grooms etc because it is a kind of generosity which is always lay on the personal expense.
salam
I think that as long as she is fine on her own financially, then the dowry does not need to be a large amount of money.
Actually she needs to be fine financially but she should also be aware of what may happen in case of divorce and if she has chosen to not receive money, she should have other means of support if divorce might happen.
When I got married I didnt know that much about the whole dowry thing. I remember reading up on it and wondered how much I was going to pay for a Saudi lady, but I have to admit Manal was reasonable.
I think often Muslim men take advantage of the women they marry. I have heard hajj promised……..but 10, 15 years later hajj still hasnt happened.
I understand the issue with asking for too much for dowry, but I believe the opposite is true for men who could pay a dowry but give none, or a few hijab or something of the like.
If a man cannot afford a decent dowry how does he expect to support a wife and any children that might come with it? My advice is for women to refuse to marry a man who will not give a respectable dowry and for men not to seek to get married unless they can offer one!
It is important for women to know that they can also dictate financial terms of a divorce in the marriage contract itself so they are aware up front that the man will take care of them and their children should this happen.
I’d agree and also say that even if you don’t take a dowry ( I refused cash but got gifted land instead ) you should probably as Abu sinan says specify financials in case of divorce in the marriage contract. Doesn’t sound romantic, but all women refusing a dowry atleast must Insist on a marriage contract. My dad went a step further and made sure my husband couldn’t demand My inherited property /wealth etc all that went from me to my kids in trust. Only what we earned we split in case of a divorce. So it’s best for the women to also protect herself and her ancestral wealth if she’s well off and maybe not take a dowry but do get a contract in place. especially if planning to live in a islamic country – it’s there for your security. Also women should be reasonable and try not to rip the guy off
think if this were your brother/son .
Also its worth mentioning that most western women marrying muslims dont understand that upon divorce they might not get much if anything if they didnt prepare before hand.
When I divorced I got absolutely nothing from him…because of what he did to the kids I was the one asking for the divorce of course…since Im the one who wanted the divorce…he was not obligated to pay me anything. So I was married for 20 years to an abusive bastard who destroyed our family…then wasnt even obligated to pay any sort of payment to me upon divorce….and never paid maher as I mentioned.
The judge only cited him to pay bd150 for 5 kids…which is laughable considering todays economy…and he doesnt pay it anyhow…but the courts dont really care about deadbeat ‘dads” over here…its hard to prosecute them and get this money for your children.
So ALL western women marrying should not only ask for money…keep it in such a place where it will be safe and available to her when and if she needs it…and hopefully she will never need it…but….
I can understand women who married Muslims in the past not knowing the issues, but with the internet today there is no reason for anyone to enter such a marriage without the knowledge and facts needed.
This is especially important for those women, and in much smaller cases, the men who will move overseas to live. Here in the West we have recourse to fix things whether or not it is in the Islamic marriage contract. In the USA or Canada it doesnt matter if there is a marriage contract stating how much money the kids will get, alimony and the like. If you divorce in the West whomever gets the children WILL get child support that can be enforced.
In the Muslim world a woman’s right is often next to nothing, especially if she is a foreigner and double so if she is not a Muslim.
I hate to say it, but I’d never recommend a women move with a guy to the Middle East. When she does so she gives up most of the rights she’d have here in the West. When a woman moves with a man to a Muslim country she is basically agreeing that her husband will be able to do almost anything to her and her children.
I am not saying this as a slam to Islamic law because I feel most of the problem stems from the fact that they deviate from Islamic law and most certainly from the spirit of fairness and justice that Islam was meant to inspire.
@medina – thanks for your comment. Perhaps in my reference that the bride who does not receive the dowry is naive, I should have stated that the western bride would be viewed as naive. I believe your comment addresses well the Saudi perspective and the issue of dowry between a Saudi bride and groom.
Dear Carol,
I am sure that most western women find it somewhat shocking when another (arab) woman asks her about her dowry. It would be akin to asking someone how much money they make. It is, in fact, a source of great pride among women as to their “price”.
I was wondering, therefore, if you would care to divulge your personal experience in this matter. You are/were, I have ascertained, an educated, sophisticated, career woman. And your husband, due to his worldliness, certainly knew about western customs. How did this all play out??
Best wishes.
@Mariam – that is a fair question. While it was a strange feeling and concept to discuss dowry, I did indeed receive a dowry and it was negotiated through my wali which made me feel more at ease about the whole situation!
Medina–Thank you for elaborating further. If I understand you correctly you are referring to the interpretation by Ibn Kathir of :
4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. [...];
and, wondering if the woman is superior in wealth would she then take on these obligations of protection and maintenance, and because of providing the wealth of the family be the decision maker over the husband, as well as giving her name to the family, making their family matriarchal, matrilineal, and even perhaps matrilocal (joining her extended family over his).
These are indeed very 21st Century questions (although they have occurred throughout the ages), particularly in families where the wife is wealthier, and consistently out earns the man (eg a friend who is a specialist physician from a well off family, and her husband who is an artisan). This is often an uncomfortable role reversal even in cultures that more clearly advocate shared decision making, and where the last name of children can be either father’s, mother’s or some combination of both.
My answer would be that this is to be negotiated between the couple, who should consider a variety of options. For example the wife’s money could be separated off from the couple’s daily expenses and reserved for her/their children’s future use. They could decide not to make wealth and income the deciding factor in who is the “protector and maintainer” but share that role. Socially, most societies make this husband’s role anyway, although holding marriage partners accountable for each other’s finances. Couples often alternate main earner role: wife during studies, husband during child bearing and raising years, wife in the later years (often younger and working while husband is retired).
As far as surnames go, I think the children should have the father’s assuming he is the social as well as the biological father, for a variety of internationally practical and universal parenting reasons, which I won’t elaborate on at this point.
As far as a more Islamic answer, I would assume the relationship of the Prophet and his first wife Khadija could serve as an excellent example (also of love, shared work, and monogamy).
And to end on a lighter note–if sperm are eventually made from a woman’s stem cells (already can be made from a man’s, and this is the next and possible step) would any of this apply? I vote yes! Most families will still be male-female parents and their biological children. LOL
Medina–Thank you for elaborating further. If I understand you correctly you are referring to the interpretation by Ibn Kathir of:
4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. [...];
and wondering if the woman is superior in wealth would she then take on these obligations of protection and maintenance, and because of providing the wealth of the family be the decision maker over the husband, as well as giving her name to the family, making their family matriarchal, matrilineal, and even perhaps matrilocal (joining her extended family over his).
These are indeed very 21st Century questions (although they have occurred throughout the ages), particularly in families where the wife is wealthier, and consistently out earns the man (eg a friend who is a specialist physician from a well off family, and her husband who is an artisan). This is often an uncomfortable role reversal even in cultures that more clearly advocate shared decision making, and where the last name of children can be either father’s, mother’s or some combination of both.
My answer would be that this is to be negotiated between the couple, who should consider a variety of options. For example the wife’s money could be separated off from the couple’s daily expenses and reserved for her/their children’s future use. They could decide not to make wealth and income the deciding factor in who is the “protector and maintainer” but share that role. Socially, most societies make this husband’s role anyway, although holding marriage partners accountable for each other’s finances. Couples often alternate main earner role: wife during studies, husband during child bearing and raising years, wife in the later years (often younger and working while husband is retired).
As far as surnames go, I think the children should have the father’s assuming he is the social as well as the biological father, for a variety of internationally practical and universal parenting reasons, which I won’t elaborate on at this point.
As far as a more Islamic answer, I would assume the relationship of the Prophet and his first wife Khadija could serve as an excellent example (also of love, shared work, and monogamy).
And to end on a lighter note–if sperm are eventually made from a woman’s stem cells (already can be made from a man’s, and this is the next and possible step) would any of this apply? I vote yes! Most families will still be male-female parents and their biological children. LOL
Sorry if there is a double post of a comment to Medina–it seemed/seems to have gone “poof” X2.
I agree that Western women are as much or more in need of a dowry because whether they plan to live in a Muslim country or not, down the line they may find themselves in one, and widowed or divorced, with no or few resources, children to support, a CV with educational and work experience gaps, and restricted opportunities due to language skills or employment reserved for native-born only.
The Islamic marriage contract should be considered like a Western pre-nup, and include the financial as well as other considerations. A knowledgeable wali is important, especially for women not used to negotiating, but also because of the emotional distance, and greater knowledge of the culture.
Think what Ted Kennedy did for Jacqueline Kennedy on her marriage to Onassis–ie protected her wealth prior to marriage, and that she would be financially protected on divorce.
Coolred is right–if the woman leaves the marriage no support is owed, making forcing the woman out a strategy of some, or fleeing while the woman is visiting her family and claiming she had abandoned the household.
Abu Sinan, Radha, Mariam–agreed. However, young students marrying often wouldn’t even know what to check for on the internet, or may find it clashes too much with their romantic notions, or that there seem to be no assets to worry about, and expect both will work forever, or could if they wanted to. Not all families are as savvy about dowry negotiations, and the variety of assets and situations to consider. Some Muslim women do indeed brag about their mahr, and see women who didn’t get much as naive or even foolish. They also brag about the size, expense, luxury, and duration of the walimah. Western women are sometimes resented as marrying more cheaply on both accounts and thus stealing the “good men”.
@ Bedu,
Thanks for your comment. I think you stated it well in your article and it was so clear you meant the western bride. hence, I was not speaking about the Saudi bride, I am speaking about western bride who will be viewed socially in Saudi society. and I still say that the western bride who does not ask for high dowry, she will be viewed positively in the society. I would love that you mention in your article, the financial support that divorced women receive from the saudi government or from charitable organizations too because it seems that some people think that divorced women are left lonely without any help in case of divorce which is something not true at all.
salam
@Medina,
You talk about help divorced women get from charity or from the goverment, but I wonder if there is no mechanism for getting the ex husbands and fathers to pay for the support of their former wives and children?
I am married to a Saudi woman. She was divorced some 17 years ago. She has received very little in support for the two children and never got a penny for herself.
I always hear about the much vaunted “Saudi pride” but that pride hasnt kept the children’s father and his family from letting me, an American convert, support THEIR children for seven years now. One of the children has Autism and her mother and I have really struggled to get her therapy because it is so expensive, meanwhile the father is completely supported by his family in Saudi and NO ONE remembers the children!
There is no pride, no honour and no justice in such a thing.
Here in the West the man would have gone to PRISON for such a thing, yet we have inquired from the Embassy about what might be done and havent gotten anywhere. No wasta……no money for bribes, common problems when dealing with Saudi government agencies.
*This is an update of a comment submitted 2x before and which I hope does not come spewing forth now.
Medina–Thank you for elaborating further in your above comment to me. If I understand you correctly you are referring to the interpretation by Ibn Kathir of:
4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. [...];
and wondering if the woman is superior in wealth would she then take on these obligations of protection and maintenance, and because of providing the wealth of the family be the decision maker over the husband, as well as giving her name to the family, making their family matriarchal, matrilineal, and even perhaps matrilocal (joining her extended family over his).
These are indeed very 21st Century questions (although they have occurred throughout the ages), particularly in families where the wife is wealthier, and consistently out earns the man (eg a friend who is a specialist physician from a well off family, and her husband who is an artisan). This is often an uncomfortable role reversal even in cultures that more clearly advocate shared decision making, and where the last name of children can be either father’s, mother’s or some combination of both.
My answer would be that this is to be negotiated between the couple, who should consider a variety of options. For example the wife’s money could be separated off from the couple’s daily expenses and reserved for her/their children’s future use. They could decide not to make wealth and income the deciding factor in who is the “protector and maintainer” but share that role. Socially, most societies make this the husband’s role anyway, although holding marriage partners accountable for each other’s finances. Couples in the West often alternate main earner role: wife during studies, husband during child bearing and raising years, wife in the later years (often younger and working while husband is retired).
As far as surnames go, I think the children should have the father’s assuming he is the social as well as the biological father, for a variety of internationally practical, and universal parenting reasons, which I won’t elaborate on at this point.
As far as a more Islamic answer, I would assume the relationship of the Prophet and his first wife Khadija could serve as an excellent example (also of love, shared work, and monogamy).
Regarding your other comments, I agree that it is important to consider how the Western wife will be considered in Saudi society, especially if she is going to live there; and important to be aware of what options are additionally available for divorced or widowed women in Saudi. Unfortunately deadbeat dads are universal, some going to great lengths to hide assets and evade payments.
I agree that Western women are as much or more in need of a dowry because whether they plan to live in a Muslim country or not, down the line they may find themselves in one, and widowed or divorced, with no or few resources, children to support, a CV with educational and work experience gaps, and restricted opportunities due to language skills or employment reserved for native-born only.
The Islamic marriage contract should be considered like a Western pre-nup, and include the financial as well as other considerations. A knowledgeable wali is important, especially for women not used to negotiating, but also because of the emotional distance, and greater knowledge of the culture.
Think what Ted Kennedy did for Jacqueline Kennedy on her marriage to Onassis–ie protected her wealth prior to marriage, and that she would be financially protected on divorce.
Coolred is right–if the woman leaves the marriage no support is owed, making forcing the woman out a strategy of some, or fleeing while the woman is visiting her family and claiming she had abandoned the household.
Abu Sinan, Radha, Mariam–agreed. However, young students marrying often wouldn’t even know what to check for on the internet, or may find it clashes too much with their romantic notions, or that there seem to be no assets to worry about, and expect both will work forever, or could if they wanted to. Not all families are as savvy about dowry negotiations, and the variety of assets and situations to consider. Some Muslim women do indeed brag about their mahr, and see women who didn’t get much as naive or even foolish. They also brag about the size, expense, luxury, and duration of the walimah. Western women are sometimes resented as marrying more cheaply on both accounts and thus stealing the “good men”.
Abu Abdullah–I agree, and the type of competition described can lead to even increasing costs for the groom and his family, that go beyond the original intent of the traditions.
American Bedu–please check your spam, as I have tried to post comments a number of times today. Only the last 2 are relevent. Thanks.
I’m glad the laws have changed and there is a setup in place nowadays for support ( financial/emotional) to divoreced women from the govt /charities etc., – we had to bribe and use all of my husband’s influence to get my S_I_L a divorce from her abusive/many wives marrying ex. and she didn’t get anything – not from him or from the govt and she was a saudi born citizen…
Really glad to know women are not alone there now.
@Medina,
Please tell me more about the support that divorced women receive…guess I’m not aware of that.
I don’t know though…I’ve heard too many Saudi women remark that a western woman is naive and have also heard the word “stupid” applied if she admits to forfeiting a dowry.
AB…I agree…refusing a dowery or only accepting a modest amount or even a non monetary sort…such as a promised haj trip etc…is generally looked down upon. Upon discovery that you were “tricked” or “ignorant” of your right to a dowery to begin with…results in much tongue clucking and looks of deep sympathy.
Dear Abu Sinan,
Let me at first appreciate your supportive role for your wife’s kids, and it is something great and you can be proud of it. And I personally feel sorry that the kids’ father does not care about them. At the same time, I will not personalize your case in my argument here. so, I will speak generally about how such things happen in Saudi society in such cases.
Usually Saudi ladies who are married to non Saudis face law problems. The first one is about getting permission for marriage which should be approved by the government. If a Saudi lady is married to a non Saudi without government permission, she will not be able even to claim her rights because she will be faced by the claim that her marriage is unlawful according to saudi civil law. If the Saudi woman is married to non Saudi and she has government permission, it could be easy for her to claim her rights from her ex husband like Nafgah. So in case she get married, her ex husband will not be responsible for her according to the law but he is required to give some money to his kids (nafigah that should bad named by the judge. And she needs to go through along administrative processes and trails to get Nafgah for his kids in case she want to keep the kids with her. It is worth noting that, the husband has the right to take his kids and keep them if she get married. And his right is supported by law 100%. So I think in your case, your wife had to choose to keep the kids with her at the expense of Nafgah that he should pay for his kids.
Dear Chiara,
Thanks for your excellent explanations. It is well stated and very appreciated.
.
Dear bedu,
I hope you got my point. I agree with you that it is naïve even among Saudi women if they do not ask for dowry but where I live in, Medina, women who do not ask for high dowry are really appreciated, so I can not generalize that to all Saudi society especially where you live in Riyadh because they are to some extent are different than us socially, (Hejaz). And you are right that some segments of Saudi society may think it is naïve if a woman does not ask for her dowry. And I Must say that it is naïve if a woman does not ask for her “good” dowry because she MAY need it one day. Also she must open a bank account and deposit it there and do not touch it at all even if she gets old. It is her Support when she is in NEED of it.
Regarding divorced women rights, although I think that the support provided by the Saudi government and that of the charitable organizations to widows, orphans, divorced women are still not enough especially for divorced women in Saudi courts, I have to admit that there are financial and material supports introduced by the Saudi government to divorced women. According to the new law that was issued in 2006, social insurance, divorced women receive 850 SR as a financial support monthly, in addition to, 300 SR for every kid they have. a foreign widow and her kids of a passed Saudi husband are included as well in this new law. Also in 2008, there was a delegation between ministry of social affairs and ministry of justice about divorced women rights in their ex husbands’ income resulted in a court verdict issued for the first time in Saudi courts against an ex husband in Media’s court stated that “ part of the ex husband’s salary will be cut for the benefit of his widow and his kids automatically from his bank account and goes directly to his widow every monthly”. It is worth noting that in shraia law divorced women and her kids HAVE the full rights of Nafqah, financial support provide by their ex husbands. unfortunately, in Saudi courts in general, judges do not investigate about the ex husband’s real income. The judge only asks the ex husband of how much he can pay to his widow and his kids but everything depends on the lawyer of the widow as well. So I agree with Abu Sinnan in this point that there is no clear mechanism maintain how much of Nafiga the widows and her kids must get from the ex husbands’ income.
There are also about 463 charitable organizations and establishments support divorced women, orphans, widows financially and the saudi government pays about 300 millions to these organisations every year. And role of these organizations is to provide needy people in general food, furniture etc. but as I said it is still not enough. We need a written law gives state crystal clearly the women rights and these rights are not subject to the judges’ opinions. The problem of Saudi courts is that its primary goal is the reconciliation between opponents at the expense of women rights generally. I hope this post add some points to the topic.
Salam to all
Kalimaat, nice one!
Medina, I do like to read your comments, and the viewpoint they provide, thank you for sharing.
Radha, You have everything so well arranged always.. I bet you are the perfect woman. I still hope to meet you for real, but we’ll give it some time until I have worked out more superwoman abillities…
My own asking price is pretty steep of course.
The principle of mahr is not really unusual in Europe either, Until about a hundred years ago it was the custom in Europe too. It wasn’t called a dowry, but amongst the well-off it was custom that in the marriage contract there would be an amount of money setteld on the wife, no matter how rich she was herself, next to the ”pin-money” she was to recieve. A bride might also be given a ”courbeille de marriage”, a basket containing jewellery, gold coins and laces (handmade lace was more expensive than jewellery). A woman was supposed to bring her own linen, and the household linnen into the marriage. Ofcourse the details of these customs varied from time to time and place to place.
I have a 16th/17th century ”wedding chest” from my mother, in this richly carved chest a young lady would collect the linnen she would over the years make and embroider .
If there was a guardian who was unsure about the marriage partner they could also make sure the husband couldn’t touch the wife’s money or assets, and in case of death it would go to the children outright.
Chiara: “These are indeed very 21st Century questions (although they have occurred throughout the ages), particularly in families where the wife is wealthier, and consistently out earns the man”
As you said, they have occurred throughout the ages. The Prophet (pbuh) and Khadijah are one example, and there are others. There is this hadith from Bukhari:
Narrated ‘Amr bin Al-Harith:
Zainab, the wife of ‘Abdullah said, “I was in the Mosque and saw the Prophet (p.b.u.h) saying, ‘O women ! Give alms even from your ornaments.’ ” Zainab used to provide for ‘Abdullah and those orphans who were under her protection. So she said to ‘Abdullah, “Will you ask Allah’s Apostle whether it will be sufficient for me to spend part of the Zakat on you and the orphans who are under my protection?” He replied “Will you yourself ask Allah’s Apostle ?”
(Zainab added): So I went to the Prophet and I saw there an Ansari woman who was standing at the door (of the Prophet ) with a similar problem as mine. Bilal passed by us and we asked him, ‘Ask the Prophet whether it is permissible for me to spend (the Zakat) on my husband and the orphans under my protection.’ And we requested Bilal not to inform the Prophet about us. So Bilal went inside and asked the Prophet regarding our problem. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) asked, “Who are those two?” Bilal replied that she was Zainab. The Prophet said, “Which Zainab?” Bilal said, “The wife of ‘Adullah (bin Masud).” The Prophet said, “Yes, (it is sufficient for her) and she will receive a double rewards (for that): One for helping relatives, and the other for giving Zakat.”
—————
What we learn from this is that the woman is not responsible for supporting her family financially, even if she is wealthy and her husband is poor. She is allowed (and encouraged) to give charity – including zakat – to her husband.
In the other hand, a husband is not allowed to give his zakat to his wife, because he’s responsible for providing for her anyway.
@Medina – thank you for your explanation.
@Medina,
So basically the process is so long and drawn out that most people dont even bother? Never mind the idea that a Saudi woman outside of the country wouldnt be able to avail of it anyway? Or one needs a bribe or wasta to make things run quick and smoothly?
My wife’s first husband was a Saudi. Her father had to pay a $10,000 bribe to the “religious” court judge to let her get divorced even though the man was a drug user and physically abusive. The judge gave him custody of their 1 year old son even though he showed up HIGH IN COURT. Some justice eh? Pay a $10,000 bribe and the “religious” court judge STILL gives your son to his father who is high on drugs during the court proceding.
Anyway, she stayed single for 10 years with two children and NEVER got a penny. No one was interested…….they still arent.
Never mind one of the children has special needs and requires MORE resources.
You can talk about charities and women’s groups all you want, but when we got married I e-mailed about a hundred of these groups in Saudi and not only did I get no help I didnt even get a damn e-mail in response.
These people are a joke and obviously arent interested in helping people. May God reward them appropriately.
Am I mad about the whole situation? You bet!
This is my experience with Saudis, and with Muslims in general, I am sorry to say. When one great person said that Islam is the greatest religion in the world, but it has the worst followers, he wasnt wrong.
When I converted I really had such hopes in decent communities of Muslims, the truth has been the opposite. I remember one Muslim lady, abused by her husband, who got no help in the Muslim community so ended up turning to a Christian group where she was helped.
Maybe that is where we went wrong? I mean, why would I turn to Saudi Muslims for help with a special needs Saudi child? Why would she expect help from her father’s family?
My experience with the Muslim community shows me that we’d have been better off asking for help from Christian and Jewish organisations!
Am I bitter? You bet!
‘When I converted I really had such hopes in decent communities of Muslims, the truth has been the opposite.’
Wow, Abu Sinan, it’s a good thing you converted eh? Otherwise you would be labeled a BIGOT for feeling that way.
Not to mention…why does the court have to force a Muslim man to pay support for his children anyhow…he fights tooth and nail for them (or sometimes no fight but still get them) but if he happens to lose and they go to the mother…suddenly his interest in them evaporates and any money he should pay is quickly forgotten. Good luck on her for getting anything after that.
@lynn,
Why would I be a bigot? My issue isnt with the religion, rather the crappy composition of the communities I have come into contact with.
Anyone who is not a Muslim CANNOT feel how I do. My disappointment is as a follower of a religion with other members of that religion.
By definition one would HAVE to be a member of said religion to feel the way I do.
@Coolred,
Even if he does win them often they go to HIS mother as well. The interest stems from pride, often nothing more.
@ Abu Sinan,
As I mentioned above, I do not like to turn the argument to be personal especially about your case. So I will just raise some points here and I am sure they will be good for you.
The first point is that accusing judge of taking bribes is not acceptable due to lack of evidences, and according to Saudi law accepting bribe is a crime. Also, according to saudi law, if the wife can prove that her husband does not PRAY, or use drugs, she will get her divorce in seconds in any Saudi court. And this sentence is very well known in Saudi society. And there are thousands of such cases where Saudi women get their divorces because their husbands were abuser or taking drugs or do not pray. How do you want me to believe your accusations while I know how the system work in my country in such cases?!
The second point is that you should know that emails are not good means to have a serious contact with charitable organizations, and I am sure they receive hundreds of emails everyday, so they need to investigate whether the sender is in need of help or not, especially if these organizations are established for the financial help. The best way to have contact with these organizations is through someone lives in Saudi Arabia or by calling them and explaining to them your case. Remember also that there are millions of Saudis who are in need of these help and support and they live in Saudi Arabia as well.
The third point is that, Saudi widows are eligible for, social insurance, according to the law issued in 2006 as long as they are not married. So, if kids’ father is registered in the social insurance, he will receive money for those kids too. Hence, they can raise a trial against him in the court to get kids’ allowance of money, 300 SR monthly for each kid.
The fourth point is about the Nafaqah for kids that should be paid by their father. And I think that the only way to get Nafaqah for those kids are through the court. Also, I have to mention that again, that the father has the right to keep his kids with him if their mum get marry. This is the law and that is how it working. Is it bad? Do not you think that the father has no right to keep his kids with him? Or the parents are only the “mum”?
A general point I would like to state about your negative attitudes that you showed towards Muslim societies. I think generalization is always a negative idea and it is not wisely to generalize a personal case to a whole nation. And especially in your case, I do not think that by sending an email to such organizations is enough to judge them negatively. And make sure there are many people who spend millions of dollars just for good deeds and charity or zakat every year. and just for more information to you, Saudi Arabia paid 110 billions dollars for human crises, and help for countries and people who are in need around the world . if you did not get a penny from these billions, that does not mean there are not existed or paid for charitable originations that are working for helping people.
At the end, I wish you the best and I am sure if you search about “the Prince Sultan organization for Saudi orphans who live abroad” they can help. And you can contact them through Saudi embassy in USA. they have their contacts and maybe they have a representation there at the Embassy.
Salam.
@Medina,
I understand about “Nafqah” and all of the concepts of the Law that you have mentioned. But I believe you misunderstood that this really has NOTHING to do with me being married at this point in time.
MY ex never fulfilled his duties when he WAS my husband, when he IS supposedly a father to this day, and when he BECAME my ex as well, not to me or the children. I was single for quite a long time before I got married again. Do you know that he has not even seen his daughter??? If she walks right past him he would not even know she is his daughter!! AMAZING eh????
My ex is STILL continually being financially supported by his mommy at age 45!!! Still paying his bills and paying for his rehab!! Every time I mention something to the family, they always dodge me around like a ball!! I have gone to the embassy here and asked what I could do, I was turned away EVERY time!!!!
Compared to my husband who has every single right to be bitter, what do you think I am???? Yet, we continue to have faith and we do know that one day JUSTICE will prevail for the weak………it is GOD’S PROMISE!!!
It is sad that as Muslims we will find more help among the Christian or Jewish communities than the Muslims themselves!!!
Islam is a GREAT religion. How people act and behave has nothing to do with the religion!! There is a fine line between any religion and it’s followers. One of the hardest things I had to face is when I mention I am Muslim to strangers and they look at me with disgust. That’s when I mention, I am NOT a FAKE Muslim, then almost always they continue to want to know the difference!!!
So sorry to disappoint you or others who think that Saudi divorced women are always getting their needs met. And I am sure, I am not the only one either…………
Abu Sinan…I agree. Quite often as soon as he gains custody the children are shipped off to his mothers house for infrequent visits by him…as he has gone and gotten married to another lady who doesnt want to raise someones else’s children…just her own. Which begs the question…why not leave them with their own mother than…
@Medina,
You know its funny but I am sensing you are trying to make this points, 1,2, 3 and 4………….to my husband as if he is unaware of the religion. He and I both, FULLY understand the laws of Islam!
Would it surprise you that EVERY single point you have mentioned, we have done and gotten nothing out of it??? Yes, including the one about a widow (my mother)!!!!
I understand you are trying to be kind in your words and trying to make us change our attitudes about Saudis and the government but honestly, it is NOT helping at this point in time.
You are right that they give money all the time. See, in your own words, you have mentioned they do so to many COUNTRIES. But what about their OWN people???? When are they going to receive help the type that is JUST, nothing more and nothing less???? Or if then they are getting help then what?? Are they just out to get me and my family??? LOL It doesn’t make any sense and to tell you the truth, it never will until the end of time, Insha’Allah……………………….
Thank you for your wishes! I know we will get A LOT out of them…………..LOL!!!
@medina – I beg to differ, especially about the bribes and abusers and divorce. I have cases in my family where a heafty bride procured a quick divorce.
I had evidence of the abuse ( the black and blue girl) and i also had evidence of the bribe . why on earth would we gift a ton to money to an unknown judge – sorry it’s called Bribe and that’s the way it worked then.
and No proving you were beaten did not get her a divorce , just a sorry lecture on being patient .
The rest of your points i have no personal experience with. but if the father is a abuser why on earth would the judge give him the kids ( if that’s the law – then it’s one crappy law) . the idiot will probably use them as a punching bag in the absence of a dear wife to hit.
Again this is a decade old case, so let’s hope times and laws have changed.
@Radha,
THANK YOU SOOOOOOOOOO MUCH for proving to Medina that BRIBES do occur and they continue to do so!! It seems that this person is quite ambivalent and confused as to what really goes on behind closed doors in the courts!!
My ex was soooooooooo stoned off the wall (he was wearing sun glasses to cover his RED eyes) and still he gave him my son and took my dad’s money!! LOLOL What a joke???
I wonder then why was it mentioned that for every 3 judges, 2 shall see hell and one will see heaven????? Hmmmmmm, I wonder why???? LOL
Medina,
My Father in Law, a former long standing diplomat for the Saudi government made it VERY clear that he paid $10,000 cash to have the divorce done. It is fact Medina. I know it might not fit into your view of things, but sorry. Bribes are a known way of life in the Middle East, so I find it odd that you’d argue like they arent. Reminds me of a guy I work with every day here who got caught in Jordon on an issue and had to pay several thousand JDs to get out of. Everyone got a piece, the judge, clerics for the court, lawyers, you name it.
You say e-mails are not a good way to communicate with charitible organisations and that they need to investigate the issues. That’s fine………..why didnt they e-mail be back and tell me to call to explain the situation and the details? Why just ignore someone? Besides, I have dealt with charitible organisations here in the USA and Europe and they had NO issue with dealing with things via e-mail. I realise there are many people in need, so figured just ONE e-mail back wouldnt have been too much to expect from the hundred or so groups I e-mail. NOT A SINGLE E-MAIL. Sorry, but no matter how hard you try, and you are trying hard, there is NO excuse for that. If Christian, Jewish and secular organisations can e-mail be back, why cannot Muslim/Saudi organisations?
I guess you missed the point about my wife being divorced, not widowed, so that doesnt apply to us.
As to your fourth point………..I also again think you FAILED to read my post. Their father is a heroin user, drinks and cannot support himself. Do you really think the kids should live with him? The oldest one lived with him for a few months after my wife and him divorced. His own mother came to their apartment one day and found the little boy in a diaper than hadnt been changed for days and beat him with her own shoe and then called my wife and told her to come get him. You want to send the kids to him? If so you are no better than the judge who gave custody of the boy to a man who showed up to a religious court in Saudi Arabia high on heroin. Too much……..really too much.
So if he is unable to support his own children because of his drug addiction he should be sent to prison until he is willing to do so. It also is a laughing stock how a man can be a continual drug addict in the “Land of the Two Holy Shrines” for 30 years now. He has been arrested for drugs before. They let him out early because he learned part of The Qur’an. ROTFLMAO! He went right back out and started using drugs again. They are VERY easy to find in Saudi Arabia, as are the prostitutes he likes to visit as well.
Medina,
I am negative towards Muslim societies because of what I have seen FIRST HAND in them, and especially Saudi because of my treatment FIRST HAND by Saudis. Sorry, I didnt become a Muslim with bad thoughts about Muslims and their societies. When I became a Muslim I certainly thought my experiences would be completely different. Alhamdulillah, it would have made it VERY hard to convert to Islam if I knew how dysfunction Muslim societies really are.
Saudi does spend a lot of money around the world. Look at the places where it spends a lot, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Along with their money they send their twisted and warped sense of Islam and their culture. Better most of these places didnt have their money for all of the death and destruction it has caused!
I am surte you “wish us the best” but sorry to say that is all I have ever gotten from Muslims in almost every aspect “wishes” and “Insha’Allahs”. When you really need something, anything from help for a special needs child or just a simple friendship you’d almost always have better luck with a Christian or a Jew.
As to the Prince Sultan organisation for orphans who live abroad, are you joking me? I contacted them years ago with the same response I got from everyone else. Silence. THAT is exactly WHY I have this attitude!
As to widows, I went to the Saudi Embassy, where my father in law worked for some 25 years because they had cut her pension off. I wanted nothing more than the back money owed to her and a guarantee that it wouldnt be cut off again. I spoke to a man, the Charge D’Affairs, who actually worked with my FIL before he died. We still got no help for my MIL and no help on our marriage recognition either. Why help us? We didnt have any money for bribes and since my FIL was dead, no wasta. Hence, no help for us.
@Radha,
Thanks! Sometimes I think these people keep their head in the sand. It just isnt Saudi, it is a known thing in the Middle East. If you want things done fast, often if you want them done at all, a bribe is required. It is a way of life! Why would be deny that it happens? A $10,000 bribe and a 1 year old boy to a heroin addict who has high in court. The boy went kicking and screaming to his father in court.
Justice………SAUDI STYLE!
I have often believed that we have probably a better chance at winning the lottery than getting any help of any kind from the Saudi government, unfortunately!!!
@Manal,
HARAM!!!!!!!!!! The lottery is haram 100 lashings for you…………unless you have a nice bribe to offer the judge!
Medina–thanks for your kind words to me and for all your thoughtful comments. They do outline for us the way things should be and sometime are, and have introduced other elements not usually raised in these discussions. As you have said yourself, part of the problem in Saudi is the individual judge’s ability to very broadly interpret the law in a direction he favours. By now you are probably aware that Abu Sinan and Manal are married to each other, and have suffered a number of negative experiences with the Saudi government and some Saudis. You are wise in keeping your comments as general as possible, as the best way to review a topic for all. Thanks again for sharing your information and perspectives.
Munaqabah–thank you for the hadith and the summary. The Quran and Sharia family law are very clear that supporting his wife and children are a man’s obligation, and that a woman’s money is hers alone. If she wishes to give her husband money it is permissible. These obligations form the basis for inheritance patterns as well. Thanks again.
Re: custody
Perhaps given the difficulty of changing Sharia custody laws it is best that when the children are awarded to an inadequate or abuser father, the grandmother raises them. Not the best solution, but a liveable one in the short term, as most grandmothers are loving, experienced care-givers.
Re: bribes
According to Transparency International
Saudi Arabia is 80/180 countries in perceived corruption (by experts and professional surveys)scoring 3.5 where the least corrupt is a 9.3 and the most corrupt is a 1.0.
MENA is one of the regions where citizens report the greatest necessity of paying “petty bribes”, most often to police, although only Iraq figures in the top 10.
Abu Sinan and Manal, a harrowing story. I am so sorry for you both.
But I’m glad Manal got out and has her children, now at least they are cared for.
You may have many examples to tell of very bad ”muslims” but you yourselves are examples of good ones.
I do wish I could do more for you as just wish you all the best.
Its sick that you can’t at least have your proper muslim marriage recognised. More: I think it’s a sin, because it precludes you of being able to go on umrah or hajj together. It’s disgusting!
I don’t see why I so often read on comments about how great Saudi arabia is in foreign aid. While ranking might differ slightly, KSA isn’t even placed on any top ten list of foreign aid donors. And I agree with AbuSinan on having serious doubt as to the results of their ”charity”.
Top three in foreign aid donors, combined with the effectiveness of their aid, are Sweden, the Netherlands, and Denmark. (those danish people who like their freedom of speech and cartoons)
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Top+three+donors.-a0193800173
Chiara, you consider the parents whose sons are hopeless drug-addicts and habitual customers of prostitutes to be proper and experoienced caregivers????
Considering the results of their first attempts at raising responsible offspring I would put a serious questionmark.
Manal has the right idea, after all: once you’ve won the lottery you also have enough money to pay the bribes and get out of punishment.
Aafke–as I wrote above, a better, though not ideal solution in MOST cases is for the grandmother (or grandparents if you prefer) to provide the primary care, rather than the addict himself or the otherwise unable father (poor parenting, skills, little availability due to travel for work or work, unable to provide the homey atmosphere of grandparents’ home with other extended family, and same age cousins, etc). Addictions are much more complicated than just “poor parenting”, and involve biological, psychological and social predispositions that vary from one child to another, including in the same family.
The preference for grandparents rather than the mother is premised on the idea, as stated above, that Sharia family law on custody is not about to change dramatically or soon. Most differences are only at what age the children will go to the father. It is easy to provide a convincing argument that any parent is unfit, or that a woman who has been a stay at home mother is financially unable to provide for the children–alas!
Re: country donor aid
The article you cite is an interesting one from African Business, evaluating donor countries in terms of % of GNI (international target 0.7%) and quality and percentage of aid to subsaharan African countries. There are various parametres for measuring donor aid, and these change the rankings considerably,eg. US is first in total billions, but does poorly per capita, and as a reflection of GNI. Other calculi include aid in forms other than monetary, different countries of destination, % tied aid (gives back more eventually to the donor country), & of untied aid, etc. More importantly, perhaps there is considerable debate about how effective aid is both short and long term, including from leading members of the intelligentsia and advocacy groups of aid receiving countries, who argue against aid in its current forms.
It is possible that Saudi does better with certain types of foreign aid to specific countries than others.
Re: the lottery
Aside from the Haram aspects, most spend more than they win, trying to win. Better to hole up with your social benefits and try to become a famous writer.
I know what the site is, as I’ve provided the link. It is only one of many sites about foreign aid.
As far as foreign aid goes, as I said, there are different top-tens with slightly different placings, KSA is on none of them, the Netherlands Sweden and Danmark are high up in all of them
Abu Sinan and Manal, I’m curious about how things worked in Saudi courts.
In Kuwait, in the case of a divorce, the custody will normally go to the mother. She’ll often go and live with her parents – especially if she’s young – so her mother is like a mother to the children. If she remarries, custody will usually go to her mother (the maternal grandmother), so the children just stay where they were anyway. And if the father does get custody, the children are often raised by his mother.
(And the courts are actually quite fair to divorced women generally, if they have children anyway.)
So was Manal living with her mother after she got divorced? Is it normal for them to give custody to the father, even if the children are young and the mother is not remarried? (Not even looking at the fact that he’s a drug addict…)
Aafke–I don’t believe I’ve contradicted anything you said, merely elaborated, and suggested that there may be areas of foreign aid, including ones not on the usual measures eg. by the OECD, where Saudi has a better performance than in others, eg. to Muslim charities in Muslim countries (most aid lists now are currently concerned with subsaharan non-Muslim African countries), mosque building, sponsoring academic departments of Islamic studies, madrassah support, etc. This would explain both the perception that Saudi is generous in foreign aid, and the accusation that it is spreading “wahhabism” or “salafism” through its foreign aid initiatives.
Munaqabah–thank you for bringing this to our attention.
However, it is probably worthwhile to specifiy that in Kuwait, religious courts make the custody determinations: Sharia (by sect, Sunni, Shia or mixed) for Muslims; Sharia for a Muslim father/non-Muslim mother; Ecclesiastic for non-Muslims. Still, the laws and practices are almost the same. Young children (prepubertal) go to the mother as long as she meets a number of restrictive conditions, and doesn’t break them; while she has physical custody the father retains custodial rights in terms of decision making for the children eg. schooling, etc,; mothers may not take the children outside of the country without the father’s permission; fathers may without the mother’s. Non-Kuwaiti women are disfavoured in custody decisions. Any woman who blocks the father’s access to the children loses her custodial rights. The prepubertal children not with the mother go to the maternal grandmother living in Kuwait, or if there is none the paternal grandmother.
At puberty the father can petition for physical custody which will most likely be accorded. Sunni girls may choose to live with their mother until marriage.
Kuwait, like all other Muslim countries, has NOT signed the Hague Convention on international child abduction, for the same issues of paternal, muslim, custody.
In short, as I said above, the custody laws in Muslim countries only vary in terms of details of ages at which the father gets custody, and that is based in major part on gender. The critics argue that this leaves the mother with the burden of raising small children, without full decision making rights, and then losing their physical presence to the father. Advocates say that early childhood is when children need mother more than father, and this shifts at adolescence.
“Young children (prepubertal) go to the mother as long as she meets a number of restrictive conditions, and doesn’t break them; while she has physical custody the father retains custodial rights in terms of decision making for the children eg. schooling, etc,; mothers may not take the children outside of the country without the father’s permission”
Actually, that’s not true. Where did that information come from? If it’s from “human rights” organizations or the American Embassy, it’s often not accurate. I remember reading information from the American Embassy saying that Kuwaiti men need permission to marry foreign women, and this is not true. (It’s only true for those working in the Ministry of Defense, and I think the Ministry of Interior also.)
I know women in this situation; they can take them out of the country without permission, and they make the decisions about schooling, etc. (I do know one woman who is Western and has Kuwaiti citizenship; she should be able to take the children out of the country, but her ex-husband has convinced the judge that in her case, she would not bring them back. She’s appealed that; I’m not sure what’s happened. Everyone who has been asked has said that the law is on her side, and that this is very unusual.)
While she has custody, he has to provide the apartment, maid, etc., if she’s not living with her family.
In practice, when the children get older, their desires are taken into consideration when determining custody.
@ Manal
I feel sympathy with you but this is the Islamic law regarding the custody of kids. The father has the right of the custody if the kids are + 7 years old. Do you want me to stand against the Law and change it? I am not in a position to change the law. This law was made by jurists who are much better than us in Islamic jurisprudence.
you are telling me that you have gone through all the points that I mentioned.. I have a relative who got her divorce in seconds after she proved that her husband does not pray. The judge divorced her. I do not have a reason not to believe you but I find your case does not concur with the mainstream of Saudi courts.
The point that you raised that the ex husband did not pay the nafqah, this is still a controversial issue even among Saudi courts of how to get Nafqah easily although it is proved by the Judge. It is not only the Nafqah,but people who lend their money to some people, find it is hard to get ther money back, especially, if they can not afford the dept. usually, he will go in prison for some months, and the government will pay half of the dept. I think Nafqah goes in the same context.
You said “I understand you are trying to be kind in your words and trying to make us change our attitudes about Saudis and the government but honestly, it is NOT helping at this point in time”, do you propose that Saudis are not kind? so, I just try to be kind? That is weird anyway. And why did you involve Saudis in this issue? Your problem is with the ex husband not with Saudis. Maybe the fashion these days is bashing Saudis.
@Abu Sinan,
First of all, I did my best not to personalize the conversation and not make of your case the main theme of the discussion. So In my last post, I tried to give you the outline of how system works officially in Saudi regardless of your case. But it seems that you want me to judge the Saudi courts and the Saudi donations to the world through your own perspective who wished the destruction for Saudi Arabia in one of his posts a week ago.
Logically, psychologically, you will be biased and you will introduce your story from the point that serve your prejudice against Saudi Arabia. Hence, you are not going to state any lawful or unlawful help or support that was received from the Saudi government for helping kids or their mum if there is any help. You will not also acknowledge any donations that Saudi gives to the world. , you just point finger suspiciously to Pakistan and Afghanistan though they are in need and we helped them but you neglect intentionally the Saudi donations to UN World Food Program, Tsunami crisis, Sudan, , Kuwait (we refuge Kuwaitis during the war, and helped them to liberate their country) Somalia, Indonesia, Gaza, Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan (we built city of Al aqba and give them oil for free), Egypt and most of Arab countries, America by supporting its economy during the economic crisis etc. That is how you are presenting your story, biased.
I have to remind you as well that Saudi does not allow dual nationality in case your wife is American. We have law issues here but you ignore that there is a Saudi law, and you expect that things work with bribes and Saudi wealth is for all Muslims although we did help them, and still now, NO Thanks to us, but hatred.
Usually, the one who pay bribes is the one who mainly breaks the law. Hence, he is participating in the corruption. Our weakest point we Saudis is that we are too kind, and that is how the law is broken. If we donate to the world, people do not even acknowledge it, if we do not donate, they will start criticizing us.
I take my information about the Saudi system from the Saudi basic law that indicate that the Quran and the Sunna are the constitution of Saudi Arabia. If the theory is different than practice in Saudi courts, this is rare exception and deviate from the mainstream that every Saudi support. and It can be corrected.
Last point, check out the Quran copies in all the Mosques around the world, and in your library, I am sure you will find out that all these copies are translated and printed in MY CITY, Medina, saudi arabia.
@Chiara,
Thanks for your comment and I think 80/180 is not good but it is not the worst.
@Aafke,
check out your data again regarding the world donors.
salam
Medina, I’m sorry but it’s your good luck stories which are the exceptions. Good for you and your relatives of course, but from everybody else who has either family or is themselve a Saudi resident I hear the Manal/AbuSinan/Radha versions.
Your relative must have had increadible, exceptional, unusual luck, or wasta, or there has been a large bribe you weren’t told about.
The top ten lists of foreign aid donors are also based on different criteria, such as the total amount of money given, the percentage of money compared to gross national income, the percentage of donations combined with effectiveness.
I don’t have to check, I allready know and have seen several different top ten lists. KSA is still on none of them.
on this site you can compare two different lists by different criteria
http://www.hoover.org/research/factsonpolicy/facts/46752697.html
@Medina,
I think you live in an alternate reality. Corruption is a FACT OF LIFE in the Middle East. It just isnt Saudi, it is the entire Middle East. Anyone who has had any sort of experience with the governments in the region know this for a fact.
My FIL worked for years as a diplomat for the Saudi government. He saw first hand the day to day nature of how the “reshwa” bribe and “wasta” (connections) system works.
It isnt just me, everyone else here except for you knows this and in several cases have personal stories to tell of required bribery in the Saudi system particularly.
Either you are unaware of it or you refuse to admit it. It doesnt change the facts. It is from top to bottom. You have heard how even Prince Bandr was involved in a multi-billion dollar bribery scandle in the UK right? BILLIONS! It is billions for those at the top, millions for lower businessmen, thousands for judges and smaller amounts for everyday government clerks.
Bribery is such a common thing in the Middle East Western countries used to (maybe still do) put the bribes in their budgets keeping track of doing business in the Middle East. It is consdiered a normal part of doing business there. An accepted FACT by Western companies………….but you have your head in the sand and say it doesnt exist.
You intimate that Manal is not a Saudi citizen and mention that Saudi doesnt allow dual nationals. Sorry to blow one of your excuses you are trying to use to explain why no one would help Manal nor her children, but she is a Saudi citizen, she has a Saudi passport and does not hold an American passport. You’ll have to come up with better reasons why no one has helped her than that.
I dont have to go to a mosque to see where some of The Qur’ans are translated, but I hate to tell you that when you say “I am sure you will find out that all these copies are translated and printed in MY CITY, Medina, saudi arabia” that you are WRONG again.
You just dont have a clue about any number of issues do you? The MOST common English translation of The Qur’an is probably the Yusuf Ali version. It was translated into English in Lahore Pakistan and the one copy I have on the shelf next to me was printed and distrubuted from Beirut Lebanon.
You are SO sure of yourself, yet this arrogance causes you to make so many factual mistakes it isnt even funny! Arrogance is a sin Medina, repent! Besides, when you act arrogant and then are shown wrong on so many accounts it just makes one look pathetic.
Manal can answer for herself, but her issue is that NO ONE she has contacted in positions of power in the Saudi establishment were willing to help. From top to bottom. From Prince Bandr, a man who Manal’s father knew personally and worked with for years, never mind the fact that her uncle on her mother’s side taught the Prince how to fly jet planes, to charities we contacted, individual Saudis she contacted. No one.
NO ONE! She wen she says it is a problem in Saudi society, she has the valid grounds to do so!
@madina,
“I do not have a reason not to believe you but I find your case does not concur with the mainstream of Saudi courts.”
What do you mean by mainstream Saudi courts. Saudi does not even have laws written down, no structure for applying precedence, judges are not trained in proper procedure, etc. Saying Saudi courts have a mainstream is an Oxymoron.
Aafke, when you cite these charts from OECD, are countries not in OECD even considered? And there are just too many other factors; as one of your links pointed out, when the U.S. gives figures for foreign aid, they include military aid, which accounts for about half of the total. And their largest recipient is usually Israel, which isn’t a poor country. Whatever else you want to say about them, the Gulf countries do give a lot in charity, and it’s often through the Red Crescent or charity organizations. I don’t think any of these rankings are going to be accurate, and the first question is which countries are they even looking at.
@Munaqabah,
I, personally, dont doubt Saudi gives a lot. But I also feel that what they give tends to have things attatched to it. With the aid also comes their preachers and the religious materials calling to an ultra strict Salafi understanding of Islam.
In many places that have gotten a lot of Saudi money this radical Salafi teaching has caused major issues in the local society and often times, as in places like Afghanistan and Pakistan, fueled the flames of violent conflict.
If someone wants to give money, feel free, just dont send the BS with it. This goes for Saudi and the US and other places that would like to connect political and or religious values with putting food in people’s mouths and clothes on their back.
Anyone who has lived in the middle east for even 6 months will know that corruption, wasta, bribes etc are the ONLY way to get anything done…if you want it done anytime soon…otherwise it will stay in someones inbox…or garbage can..you never really know.
Middle east is ALL about who you know and how much they want…nothing else.
I think it’s really ridiculous to doubt the personal experiences of a genuine saudi lady. And to try and spin a different story when she has personal experience with the working of the Saudi courtsystem. If that isn’t a contradictio in terminus.
Which it is.
Munaqaba, I’m not gong to google sites and numbers for you which you can find for yourself.
As far as I remember the Netherlands alone give more money to help Palestinians, the Gaza-strip, and gave several times more money as KSA to the muslim,/em> countires who were stricken by the great tsunami.
The reasons countries like KSA arent’on the lists is becasue they do give out a lot of hullaballo but in reality don’t spend an quarter per head what people like the Dutch, Swedes, Germans and Danes give, also to muslims countries. Countries which actually work for their money, and not get it thrown at them in exchange for oil.
The reason why countries like USA and Britain and Saudi aren’t nominated when effectiveness of aid is included, and that is because their ”aid” is spiced with self interest.
And saudi will never be on any positive list as far as their ”Aid” consists of supporting the Taliban and spreading their creepy salafi/hanbali/wahhabbi sect. That is not doing any good to anybody or ”helping” anybody anywhere.
“Munaqaba, I’m not gong to google sites and numbers for you which you can find for yourself.
As far as I remember the Netherlands alone give more money to help Palestinians, the Gaza-strip, and gave several times more money as KSA to the muslim,/em> countires who were stricken by the great tsunami”
So you’re going to say something like that but not back it up with any numbers?
yeah that’s right.
moreover, I am leaving: I’m going to start my moroccan lemony chicken now becasue I have dinner gueasts in on hour.
Re: Child custody laws and Sharia family law
Since Kuwait (and some other Muslim countries) apply Maliki law to Sunnis, its details will be different than Saudi Hanbali law which is maternal PHYSICAL custody of boys to age 7 and girls to age 9, then paternal physical custody. Fitness of either parent is always an issue, but with young children the paternal grandmother’s fitness may be the deciding factor.
Munaqabah–I drew the information on Kuwait from a number of sources including:
From a Kuwaiti Lawyer:
http://www.helplinelaw.com/law/kuwait/articles/labeed%20abdal/article3.php
From an international legal series by Emory University’s Faculty of Law:
http://www.law.emory.edu/ifl/legal/kuwait.htm
From the analysis and statistics about gender equality in Kuwait, compiled by the OECD Development Centre which refuses to allow me to link it !
In general the following is an interesting article by a Muslim scholar (PhD) of Islamic Law containing an overview of Islamic family law and the Hague Convention (general principles and examples):
http://elgeed.net/pdf/Islamic_Law_and_International_Parental_Child_Abduction_.pdf
In light of the discussion in this thread on grandmothers there is an interesting stipulation that as women are regarded in Islam as being the nurturers of young children, where the custody of young children is granted to the father there must be a woman present to do that nurturing while he fulfils his Islamic obligation as the provider.
I have in the past done my own considerable research on the Hague Convention and child abduction laws which reflect back to child custody laws and Sharia Family Law, for professional (clinical and research) reasons. Most people don’t abduct their children but those who do face legal consequences in countries signed onto the Hague Convention, and sometimes in other countries.
However Muslim countries determine custody primarily by the religion of the father, the age and the gender of the child and therefore haven’t signed the Hague Convention, and won’t necessarily (but sometimes do) honour foreign custody agreements. All Muslim countries that I am aware of have laws about a mother exiting the country with her children without the father’s permission (although he may sign a blanket permission), and some prevent the father from doing so as well. All want reassurance that the mother is fit (including religiously) before granting her children of any age. Young children may be granted to a father where his mother seems a more fit mother than the biological mother.
If you reread your own comment I think that you will see that what I have said doesn’t contradict your case examples. Mothers may participate in decisions re: schooling etc, but the fathers also have a say (and usually control the finances). Fathers have the right to petition the courts for physical custody but may choose not to do so. Children at adolescence have a right to state preferences which may or may not be granted by the judge.
Regarding International Foreign aid:
to Gaza following 2008-9 offensive, pledged in USD:
Saudi Arabia 1,000,000,000
US 20,300,000 (emergency) up to 900,000,000 total
Kuwait 534,000,000
Algeria 200,000,000
UAE 91,300,000
Netherlands 4,000,000
Israel 1,000,000
Preliminary damage estimate 2,000,000,000
Aafke–all the statistics you have cited are the same OECD compiled ones based on their parametres of total, % of GNI, and effectiveness (measured mainly by transparency and accountability criteria), which assess member states contributions to the countries they consider eligible (based on country income).
In the sincere hope that you are preparing your Moroccan lemon chicken with green olives and citrons confits, bon apetit to your guests!
Abu Sinan and Aafke–aid is usually tied aid, which is one of the reasons for aid reform. It is tied to economic strictures that ultimately indebt irremediably the receiving countries, or to trade exchanges, or to ideological acceptances, or military access, or political alliances etc.
Aafke–I fail to see the contradictio in terminis in Medina’s logic, or even the literary equivalent, an oxymoron.
Medina–I agree that 80/180 shows room for improvement but is well above the most corrupt which include those with the greatest social disruption due to war: Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia.
Re: codification of Saudi law
Human Rights Watch has published online an excellent overview of the Saudi legal system, the gaps, the fact that judges are not yet familiar with procedure, and citizens are advised to know their rights and demand them since they won’t be spontaneously informed. It also outlines systemic deficiencies including torture etc. Part I is a history of the codification of laws, the legal system, the oversight of the legal profession etc. The Title is “Precarious Justice” written March 24, 2008 with the collaboration of Saudi defendants, lawyers, judges, and the MOI.
The problem with individual cases, based on personal experience, is that they may well deviate from codified law, for a variety of reasons, including the individual merits of the specific case, the competencies of the lawyers involved, the biases of a particular judge, or particular court circuit, differences over time and place in societal attitudes, and of course wasta in whatever form.
I highly recommend Transparency International’s various corruption indices which show surprisingly high levels for non-MENA countries, especially certain Eastern European ones, and of course war-torn ones, where corruption always flourishes.
American Bedu–I have left another comment with links as requested, and relevent to the discussion here on child custody.
Chiara, those links give general information and are mostly correct, but I’d just advise anyone to check if they really need correct information. Like I mentioned, the U.S. Embassy isn’t always accurate either.
I had a friend (in another Gulf country) whose husband died, and the Embassy told her for sure that since she and her husband were American citizens, then his inheritance would be handled according to U.S. law, which would make it easy for her. When she got to court, the judge took one look at her, saw her hijab and said that since they were Muslim, it would be handled under Islamic law, which led to years of legal issues because of assets and businesses that would now be split among other relatives of her husband. (Since she’s Muslim, it’s right that islamic law be applied, but the wrong advice had her making a lot of decisions based on that assumption and then having to redo everything.)
Dear Chiara,
Excellent comments. you are alwayes fair in your words and you support your argument by documents.
salam
Munaqabah
I agree that in all instances a person should consult the best most competent LOCAL lawyer s/he can find and pay for. The published information is often accurate but of necessity simplified, and generalized compared to an actual case, or it is time specific, ie could be out of date. Embassy officials are far from expert, and vary in competency on a given subject.
Poor legal advice is potentially devastating with long term repercussions, and in general it is wise to remember that in Muslim countries the laws applied are based on the person’s religion. This can be seen as being accomodating to minority members of the society, and yet it may have negative consequences for those who would prefer to be judged under a different law. That is one reason I advise anyone thinking of a “conversion of convenience”, or a “non-conversion of convenience” to think of all the legal implications, particularly around family law which is the most likely to be religion, not nationality, based. The other legal bottom line, or adage, would be that when in a country you are subject to ITS laws, even if you are in the country for a 1 hr stopover on your way to somewhere else–this is particularly true of criminal and civil law, eg. drug laws, societal codes of behaviour, etc.
Immigrants to Canada need to be especially aware of domestic violence laws, where police lay the charges not the spouse, or family; where it is very easy to find yourself investigated by Children’s Aid; and where there is no such thing as an honour killing or crime of passion, only degrees of murder and manslaughter, and perhaps mitigating circumstances on sentencing.
Medina–Shokran!