I was recently watching news on CNN which was discussing Muslim women who wear the burka (ie, abaya) and headcover and whether such attire was a sign of fanaticism Islam. The reporter specifically mentioned movements in France, Turkey and Netherlands as well as elsewhere in Europe to make Islamic wear such as an abaya, burka, chador, headscarf, niqab or hijjab as illegal or prohibited attire. In addition to the reason of appearing like an Islamic fanatic, the report also cited that such attire also indicated subservience and oppression of women.
I found the report insulting, discriminatory, arrogant and frankly ignorant. It seems that we have nations of people who are jumping to (in)correct conclusions on Islamic dress and as a result, dictating what is or is not appropriate to them. Isn’t this a bit presumptuous on the part of the democratic and free world? Shouldn’t muslim women around the world have the choice to choose how they wish to dress? In fact, whether they are muslim or not, shouldn’t it be up to the individual women on how conservatively or how liberal they wish to dress?
I know many Saudi women who believe that their niqab and hijjab is part of their identity. However just because they have chosen (and I underscore chosen) to wear the niqab and hijjab I also know that many of these same women are by no means an Islamic fanatic. Conservative and dedicated to their faith, yes.
Additionally can one really determine whether someone is an “Islamic fanatic” by the way they dress? But first, how does one specifically identify an Islamic fanatic? What are the specific signs? Should there be such a label as an ‘Islamic fanatic?’ Is there such a thing as a Christian or Jewish fanatic?
Filed under: abbya, culture, Dress, Freedoms, gender, islam, politics, religion, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, Saudi education, Saudi Living, travel, Uncategorized, Women Issues Tagged: | abaya, culture, culture shock, customs, gender, gender issues, heritage, islam, KSA, religion, Saudi, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, travel, women
I don’t think outward appearance can accurately identify whether someone is a fanatic of any sort. People judge by outward appearances and sometimes there are clues, but not always. You may look respectful and be dressed as well as the President of the United States and inwardly be a ticking time bomb.
Your dress does say something about you. If I saw a men dressed in a black suit, white shirt and kippah, I would know he was Orthodox Jewish. If he had a fur hat, I would assume that he was Haredi (maybe I’m wrong but its a good bet). Most of the crazy settlers in Palestine do were some religious garb. There are even Jewish equivalents to a burka.
Dear bedu,
I agree with you completely @ “whether they are muslim or not, shouldn’t it be up to the individual women on how conservatively or how liberal they wish to dress?”
I think from a Muslim and a Saudi woman perspective that women who dress in Niqab and fully covering attire are either followers to the strict Islamic interpretation by choice or simply persuaded to be as such by their families and communities, since most Islamic communities relate the intensity of dressing to the virtue of the woman, the more covered the woman is the more virtouos she is and vice versa and this is conveyed to the people who deal with her as well, it is a mean of social acceptance and in many cases, a passport to gain trust from the family to pursue life independently, I know of many women who were able to work in mixed sitting and travel alone by showing adherence to strict Islamic covering, that gave their families a sense of relief that no one would take advantage of them because they convey -at least from the appearance point of view- the Islamic values of chastity… I strongly against governments and authorities engagement in legalizing dress code or read more than it is unless for security reasons…
American Bedu, thank you for the excellent post!
How much do the CNN and the people who express such views really know about the culture and society of many Islamic communities? Who do they think they are to set standards and decide what is appropriate and what is not for Muslim women to wear ?
I’m totally against the idea of forcing a particular dress code for women and even men.. But claiming to know and determing what is the appropriate way to dress and what is not is just as bad..
I agree that dress does say something about you, accurately interpreted or not. I do think however that degree of cover is no sign of fanaticism, but rather a combination of choice, and the circumstances in which that choice is made.
As far as the French go, the primary legitimate concern in France is the more recent shift to more strict/conservative forms of Islam, and that some girls/women are being coerced to cover by family or others.
I disagree with Sarkozy, even if his intention is, as stated, to protect these women from coercion or harassment from within their own communities. While disallowing the headscarf in schools and public government buildings does fit with French values and tradition (laicity), disallowing the “burqa”, however that is interpreted, does not. It precludes freedom for those who authentically choose to wear it. The West seems to totally disbelieve that there are women who do make this choice, and they are not insane, oppressed, or brainwashed.
Sarkozy, he of the “racaille” (trash) comment about French Arabs and Blacks protesting in the suburbs, and from the right wing, has less credibility than some others on this topic. I suspect this has more to do with French nationalism, and eliminating the influence of certain sects of Islam than it does with French Liberté, Égalité, et Fraternité”.
The consensus in the French press on the Left and the Right is that this is an election ploy by Sarkozy–to appeal to the Right and the Far Right, as well as to moderates hit by the recession– and an attempt to rein in the increase in Salafism in France (still a minority but growing), including conversion by the French, as the women converts are the most likely to wear the “full veil”, “burqa”, or “niqab”. Salafists seem to have made inroads among the disenfranchised, Sarkozy’s “racaille”.
Though not stated, I suspect this issue of sects is why the Imam of the Grand Mosque of Paris is supportive of this action. France has a long history of immigration (and massive recruitment of labourers) from the French Maghreb, which follows the Malikite fiqh of Islam, and where face veils and full cover are uncommon (although there is a concern about Salafism there too). This makes most French unfamiliar with covering muslimah, and so susceptible to “stories” about them.
A Commission has been struck by the National Assembly to start exploring the possibility of enacting and enforcing such a law. Martine Aubry, leader of the Parti Socialiste, made a comment that enforcing such a law would simple force girls and women to stay home, guaranteeing a failure of integration; and at the Ministry of the Interior the recommendation was made to control radical preaching, rather than women. Both of these are very good considerations in my view.
A companion law is being considered, to make it illegal to cover one’s face at a demonstration. That one reminds me of Franco’s Spain, where parades with costumed characters were also illegal because of fears of violence by Basque separatists, among others, hiding beneath the Carnival masques.
Plus ça change…
So I’m going to play the proverbial devil’s advocate here and ask the question that has been on my mind since this whole France-burka issue started….what’s the difference between France telling Muslim women they don’t want them wearing a burka/abaya and Saudi Arabia telling me, a Christian woman, that I must wear an abaya? Or that they don’t want me wearing a cross in public or carrying my Bible or…the list goes on and on. Isn’t it just the other side of the exact same argument? At least France is cloaking the issue in safety rather than straight-up intolerance.
SGIME–from a political point of view the difference is that Sarkozy is proposing a categoric change from official French values and laws, to target a specific religious group, mostly as an election ploy or else as part of a shift hard to the right. Saudi is acting consistently with its own stated political beliefs in its role as Custodian of the Two Mosques–not that this is necessarily the “correct” Sharia law, but it is consistent with the current regime’s stated beliefs.
From a personal point of view, the end result is similar. Both curtail the freedom of individuals to “wear” their religious beliefs, and dress as they are accustomed to in their home countries.
I honestly think a fair amount of women cover their face in KSA because of the way that some men act. Sometimes it’s the only thing they can do to try and stop the stupid things the guys do, like following them in cars or shouting their phone numbers at them.
It doesn’t always work (and in some places I’m sure it doesn’t at all) but it’s worth a try.
I remember one expat woman decided to cover her face completely because she was sick of all the stares and comments from men about her fair skin.
But apart from that, I do agree with you 100% – Muslim women (and all women at that) should be able to choose what they want to wear. And SGIME… your post mirrors my thoughts exactly! Telling women they can’t wear something is basically the same as saying they have to wear it.
After reading the post I came to the same opinion as SGIME. Every country has the right to determine what is the standard they want to go by. The US has gotten lax but there are still some standards. You can’t go around naked. I chose to be here in the kingdom so I will adhere to the code of the kingdom by wearing my abaya. If you want to live outside this country you need to adhere to the standard set , leave or you get active politically and change it.
I am not sure about the motives of the French but I do believe they are trying to help women not hurt them. I hope there is a way to compromise where most are happy. Compromise is needed .
I wonder how much of this is a ‘women’s rights’ issue and how much of it is anti-Islam?
It’s not much of a secret that post nine-eleven, Muslims have had a ‘reputation’ that has not been helped by fanatic Imams and a – either real or perceived – belief that most Muslims support terrorists. Muslims have, in popular opinion, turned from the interesting people who wrote the Arabian nights and make us kebabs at the end of a long night of drinking, to a boring, fanatical and rather stupid (‘uneducational’ according to one Australian talk-back radio host) bunch of immigrants who are unfortunately taking up space in our lovely, democratic Western countries.
It is unfortunate that this is what it is coming to. Countries that have ‘problems’ with Muslims need to look at better integrating Muslims into their societies. Likewise, the Muslim community needs, as a whole, to understand that if they don’t want to be perceived as sexist fanatics, then they must do something about it! The burka debate is only a smokescreen for the real issues and unfortunately, as with most things, it is the women who will suffer the stupid decisions made by ignorant fear mongerers.
And of course there are Jewish and Christian fanatics. As my FIL says, the only good fanatic is a Buddhist one, because Buddhism the only religion where the more devout you are, the less likely you are to kill, lol.
Jerry, ”covering” is a Jewish custom to start with. It’s in the Jewish religion that women have to cover their hair adn upperclass Jewish women covered their faces as well. Becasue they considered themselves to be too much above the ”plebs” to be seen by them. As they converted to Islam they kept up their complete covering because they still considred their status to be too high to be seen by the common people. Actually, slaves and common women were forbidden to veil! I suppose that as other women also wanted to be regarded as ”upper-class” they also started covering more. But that still makes it a cultural snobbish custom only.
As Christianity became a more established regulated religion st Paul incorporated the duty of covering for (only) women in the bible as well, through Corintians. Actually the one Abrahamic religion which doesn’t call for full covering is Islam. The quran only requires women to cover the breasts and down to the knees.
Telling women that full covering is required by Islam is bidah, or innovation, strictly forbidden by Islam btw.
So what about this innovation being spread in countries where it is concieved in a very negative light? I know that in France all outward emphasis on religion are forbidden at schools, so taken strickly they can’t forbid hijab or niqab as it isn’t a religious duty but a cultural custom. However, scholars who like the idea of women having to cover have no firmly innovated it into Islam. You see many new converts or ”reverts” as they like to call themselves, who ahve been trained to thiong niqab is required. They can only have learned this from some salafi iman; as they can’t have read it in the quran for themselves.
And as KSA is spreading their twisted a d innovated form of Hanbali/salafi/wahhabi Islam vigorously all over the world I think there is defenitely cause for concern. But I think it’s the muslims themselves whose task it is to keep Islam being poisoned and twisted by spreading of wahhabi/salafism
On the other hand, I also thnk that any country or government has not only the right, but the duty to protect it’s citizens, including those who are muslim, from extremists creeps whose goals are not conductive to the safety, happiness and freedom of their citizens.
I do know that niqab is forbidden in schools in the Netherlands because of safety and communication reasons. those are at least better reasons than KSA has in inflicting the abaya on the expats they rely on to keep their country running, because they have none at all.
I am against any regulation for dress on anybody. But we see governments have tried to do so throug many ages and they will keep on trying to do so. In the end it’s the people themselves who decide if they will be forced into dress restrictions or not.
I think the prohibitions by democratically elected governments in the west can be taken as the voice of the majority of the inhabitants that they really don’t like to see women covered, for whatever reason, misguided or not.
This does not count for coutries like KSA, which are in no way democratic, but is actually a theocracy. So in KSA the decree for covering is at the pleasure of the Islamic ”scholars” who decided they could improve on Islam by adding the Jewish customs in the first place.
SGIME, one difference is that the Muslim woman believes that this is a part of her body that needs to be covered, and she can’t go out in public with it uncovered… Whereas there’s nothing in her religion that prohibits a non-Muslim from covering herself in a way that she wouldn’t do in another country.
The same with wearing a cross – it’s not a religious requirement for a Christian to wear a cross, but it is a religious requirement for a Muslim woman to cover herself (everything but face, hands and feet are agreed upon; there are different opinions about those).
A woman’s covering her face shouldn’t bother anyone else. (I notice no one’s complainiong about all these people walking around with face masks because of the H1N1 virus.)
If tere actually is a question of security, as far as I know, even the strictest scholars agree that a woman has to uncover her face if necessary for identification purposes; of course, it’s better to do this in front of a woman if one is available.
They also use the argument about peer pressure; well, how many people wear clothes because of peer pressure? Do Sarkozy and all those government officials wear dark suits, buttoned up collars and ties because that’s the most comfortable thing? A lot of people have to wear certain kinds of clothing in their work. How may people wear what the fashion magazines tell them is “in” this season, and would be embarassed to wear certain clothes that would be considered in bad taste in their circles?
(For me, this is an academic argument, because I have no desire to go to France.)
What I meant with ”It can be taken as the voice of the majority of the inhabitants that they really don’t like to see women covered,” is, if tyou live in such a country (not a visistor) why then insist on extreme covering knowing that it is not regarded in a positive light? Why insist on sticking out and drawing attention?
I can imagine some people find it in some way insulting. In my opinion it is insulting to live in a country and then flaunt its customs and culture, and expect the huge majority to conform by your notions.
The example we read earlier in a comment of a lady being all niqaabed and too religious to show her face in passport controil and then cheerfully takes it off in the plane is too common: It shows the bypocrisy almost constantely surrounding the subject of veiling.
For me religion does not trump decency and polite behaviour, nor should it be allowed to.
By the way, since the international media has pretty much ignored this story, I’ll mention it here. Marwa Al-Sherbini, a 32-year old Egyptian woman, pregnant and the mother of a 3-year-old, whose husband was on a scholarship there, was stabbed 18 times in a courtroom in Dresden, Germany last week. She had taken the man to court for harassing her about her hijab (trying to remove it and calling her a terrorist); the man was fined but they were in court for his appeal. Her husband and son were there; the husband tried to defend her but was shot by a police officer in the courtroom and is in critical condition now.
A lot of people in Egypt are wondering how this could have happened- how the guy got a knife in there and then was able to stab her 18 times without anyone stopping him. But they’re also wondering why it’s gotten almost no attention…
Aafke, I know you like to keep repeating that stuff about covering, but it won’t make it true.
Most of the women I know who cover their faces (including myself) are not Salafi, and even among Salafis, there are different opinions; Al-Albani, for example, says it’s not required although he and his followers think it’s recommended. Actually, many of my friends who wear niqab are “Sufis”.
Since there is a valid disagreement, you can choose either opinion about niqab, but you can’t insult people for taking the opposite opinion.
By the way, I know women who wear niqab who study and work in various fields. They’re engineers, professors, social workers, lawyers, teachers, doctors; they come from all different countries; they have master’s degrees and PhDs; some have black belts in martial arts… the niqab doesn’t prevent them from doing what they want to do.
@ munaqabah
Yes the case did receive a lot of attention in German media, where it happened. But this was one man who was obviously racist, whether she wore hijab or not would not have made a difference. He is Russian immigrant to Germany. Egyptians are blowing it out of proportion.
That was all over the news in the Netherlands, and Germany and without emphasis on religious hullabaloo, but adressing the salient points: A man brutally stabbing a women, and a courthouse which lacks the basic security to stop a suspected criminal to bring in a lethal weapon.
In the Dutch and German news, and on tv by eyewitnesses the story is presented differently, there is no mention of religious details. But the incident itself is being discussed with great emphasis.
It was a second hearing: the man had allready been sentenced to pay a substantial amount for insulting the woman.
During the session the man attacked the woman brutally and also the husband and son when they tried to protect her, the man suffered knife cuts and a shot in the knee by the police. That was by mistake, and if he is in critical condition it’s becasue of the knife attack. But it is reported in the news today that he is recovering well.Immediately afterwards the courthouse was swarmed with ambulances and helicopters; everything possible was done to safe the victims.
Moreover it has sparked deep repercussions into the German security. The president of the German judges has expressed his amazement on the lacking of proper security at the GErman courthouses. The German minister of Justice has been giving out a declaration in the press, and the story from all different viewpoints is all over the news and the internet.
The German news mentions the woman as a young Egyptian woman, and there are many concerns and regrets that although Dresden is openminded, there are some people who indulge in racism and discrimination. This is denounced in the news.
The story is still in the news today btw.
Seems to me you have been given a highly coloured and incomplete account of both the incident and it’s coverage in western media.
In regards to the Burka/Covering, I’m not a fan. Although when it comes to clothes, or the lack of clothes, it should be someone’s personal decision and not something to be enforced by government. That should go both ways, it applies to both France (Turkey, Tunisia, Netherlends), and Saudi Arabia.
I thought you might this article interesting, see as it pertains to the post, regarding fanaticism in religion.
http://www.countercurrents.org/saavedra080206.htm
Niqab is not associated with fanaticism or oppression by Saudi females, it is culturally accepted and not questioned unlike France. They are not imposing one uniform for all females, but that covering of the face is socially and culturally unacceptable to the majority of the people. Regardless of whether the state is democratic, liberal, secular, there is no such thing as absolute freedom.
Munaqaba, Niqab has nothing to do with islam. (however amusing it is to wear one) If it was it would be mentioned in the quran. It isn’t the quran which merely states to dress ”modestly” and to cover the breasts and down to the knees. Anything more is a personal choice, which you can make, but you can’t claim it’s required by God.
As is clear form the many photo’s from earlier times that Arab women did not wear the close hijab and niqab as they were later forced to do by the wahhabbi salafists. This is in living memory: there are still people who recall how the men from Riyad came and forced the women to wear black abayas and niqabs.
I’m really sorry if that clashes with what you have been taught but that is still fact.
You can get around facts by indulging in a lot of intellectual acrobatics but you can’t stop me from pointing them out.
Oh and about the news from Dresden: This guy stabbed her 18 times in 32 seconds, it was not as if the whole German courtroom sat back and looked interestingly at the stabbing for 20 minutes, it was a huge chaos and people immediately tried to stop the creep, but he was very fast.
Sorry for spamming, but I wanted to add that is a very creepy picture. It’s like faces emerging from black sand (or a good horror flick poster), and that’s not even the creepy part. You just get an overwhelming sense of conformity from that picture, actually it’s more depressing than creepy.
“Seems to me you have been given a highly coloured and incomplete account of both the incident and it’s coverage in western media”
I don’t know what you saw that was “highly coloured”. And when I heard about this a day or two ago, I searched the Internet to make sure it was true before I passed it on, and all I could find were a few blog posts.
There’s a little more about it now, since it’s become a huge issue in Egypt, and since they had the funeral there.
If you could read German you would have found hundreds of internet sources alone. As I did.
Don’t be silly and claim it isn’t out all over the internet and news media. It’s another fact I can prove and you can’t deny.
It’s been out on the net and tv 5 inutes since it happened. Not only that , all German media reports it as a shocking thing which should never have been allowed to happen.
German news is very good, to the point and comparatively unbiased. I have alwasy preferred German News over American, English and Dutch.
What I mean by highly coloured is for one example the claim that the husband was shot by the police and on death’s door. He was accidentally shot in the knee, not a lethal place, and he is recovering from the knifewounds.
This is stuipd. Like you said, women should be free to choose what they want to wear ~ be it conservative dress or liberal.
Ever since September 11th the media has been using words like “fanatic” and “extremist” to paint an ugly picture of anyone with whom they disagree. They even say the same words for us Chrisians! Unless you’re dressing like a ho, sleeping around, and behaving like a hedonist, you’re a threat to society!
Aafke, I specifically mentioned the international media.
Aafke,
Your mentioning that covering is a Jewish requirement is right. Where you go wrong is when you think that because it was a requirement on Jews that it isnt on Muslims.
You see, as Muslims we see ourselves as the heirs of the Jews. To a certain extent, their laws are our laws. So the requirement on Jews to cover was passed onto Muslims, and if you read the New Testament, you’ll see Christian women are enjoyned to modesty as well.
As a matter of fact, the requirement to cover a female’s hair is made MUCH more directly in the New Testament than it is in The Qur’an.
I understand where you are coming from, but pointing to the Jews and trying to say that it was a requirement on them and hence is a cultural practice stolen from the Jews just doesnt work when you consider how Muslims view the pass off of the religion and the practices. We view ourselves as sort of a continuation of the Jews, so it is only natural we’d take many of their practices we feel that is required by God.
Your boat just doesnt float.
As to the subject as a whole, women shouldnt be forced to do anything. Women should be as free to do what they want in France or Saudi Arabia.
In Islam choice, intention, is everything. The reward for wearing hijab would then naturally be lower if you were wearing it out of fear of your husband, father or uncle.
If everyone had freedom to make their own personal choices the burka and niqab would be a great statement of very conservative Islam, but given the fact that family and societal dynamics often FORCE women to wear it, no such judgements can be made.
Freedom of religion in France and Saudi is a worthy cause.
@Aafke,
I think the point being made is that if the attacker had been a Muslim in a Muslim court killing a Christian woman it would have been all over English/Western media as well as German media.
This is a valid point. Muslim acts that are sensational get a disproportionate amount of media exposure in the West, whether in German, Dutch or English.
As to the act itself, having been born and lived in Germany, I wonder how Germans can be surprised this happened? There has been a growing sentiment of hate that will certainly lead to more violence. Far right parties have made great gains in Germany and other places, including Holland where they gained some 17% of the vote, almost one out of every five voters in Holland voted far right.
Germans should NOT be surprised, rather they should be ready for MORE violence against immigrants and religious minorities.
I remember being in Berlin a few years back and seeing some pretty extreme stuff spray painted on the walls in the suburbs. It was EASY to see this stuff coming.
Re: France and the Burqa
The National Assembly Commission is currently debating the option of a law and of what type. The left is against it; and the right is divided on whether there should be one and of what type, and whether it can be enforced. In other words, it is far from “the will of the people”, and as above is seen as an election ploy by Sarkozy. All, including the Imams seem to be in agreement that the issue is not so much the niqab as those fundamentalists who preach against French society and try to destabilize it from within. France has a tradition of Maliki Muslims, including the Grand Mufti, and is concerned (including the leading Imams) about the inroads of other groups. The Imam of the Al-Azhar mosque has confirmed the obligation on Muslims to conform to the laws of the country, and reminded that the niqab is not obligatory, although some view it as recommended.
Broke Saudi–excellent article that addresses all fundamentalisms, including the one that put George Bush in power. I agree the picture is creepy, and deliberately intended by the creator to portray covered women as a frightening zombie army. While Saudi is restrictive about dress and religion (highly restrictive in the last 30 years), it is open about these restrictions; and those who choose to go there are well aware. Internal dissent about the restrictions is a matter for Saudis (including Broke ones LOL
).
Re: Marwa Al-Sherbini
Munaqabah– thanks for bringing this story to our attention.
I had to search for the story, as it has not been well-covered internationally, and the German press coverage itself is limited.
According to the Associated Press coverage of the funeral, “The killing has dominated Egyptian media for days, while it has received comparatively little coverage in German and Western media.”
The husband was shot by mistake because it was assumed, based on his appearance, that he, not the recently immigrated Russian of German descent, was the attacker. Her valiant son was 3. The attacker, who was their neighbour, had repeatedly harassed her, called her a terrorist, and had tried to physically remove her headscarf (=assault). He stated his hatred for Muslims under oath in court. Both the Muslim and the Jewish organizations of Germany are expressing their concern about such a hate crime.
@ Aafke, your statements on covering the head related to Islam is once again FALSE. You keep making the same “mistakes” and it start looking like you are trying to spread misinformation on purpose.
I cannot let this nonsense pass…
Peter, It’s not me alone who thinks Hijab and niqab and abaya isn’t called for by the Quran, so I think you are the one who is wrong. End of discussion I think.
Is alcohol addictive and bad for you? It very well could be so it’s best that we just ban it, according to Islam.
Is the burka and headcover a sign of fanaticism? It very likely could be (especially when not in a Muslim country) so it’s best that we just ban it. You know, just in case, it’s always best to err on the side of caution.
imunaqabah, I read about this German case today. The report showed that the people of Egypt were up in arms and shouting hostile slogans against Germany (Death to Germany?) So, yeah, it did make it into the news in the U.S. and it didn’t sound like it went down anything like the way that you described it. With the police brutally gunning down her husband for trying to protect her! LOL
Aafke: On the other hand, I also thnk that any country or government has not only the right, but the duty to protect it’s citizens, including those who are muslim, from extremists creeps whose goals are not conductive to the safety, happiness and freedom of their citizens.
I agree completely!
And another thing about the lack of news reporting on the German case. Y’all need to understand and respect that that there has been other VERY important things that have been needing the coverage. MICHAEL JACKSON DIED and not only that, his ex wife was not even in the will!!
I agree with the poster that whenever a nonMuslim/Islamic country wants to ban something regarding clothing (hijab/niqab etc) then Muslims protest in force…but when Islamic/Muslim countries force a certain dress code on people..even nonMuslims…those nonMuslims (and Muslims) are meant to deal with it…cause its “cultural”. How hypocritical is that? Wearing the niqab or hijab or even the abaya is NOT a law in Saudi yet it is enforced…with minimal protest from the population in general (maybe they quietly protest but not full scale riots or public displays of unrest etc)…yet when any other country proposes to ban something (the opposite of the same coin) then the streets and news are full of protest.
If we are going to protest visibly and loudly against France…we should also protest visbibly and loudly against Saudi…and any other country that wants to force a certain type of dress code on its population.
Sorry for writing out of context here, Carol. Just thought of congratulating you on the news article about you in Saudi Gazette.
I guess this kind of fits here, especially in looking at Coolred’s statement. It has been reported that the UAE is going to institute a “cultural test” for expats who want to live in the UAE.
I wonder how many Muslims are going to complain about this? I know they have raised a huge issue about similar proposal’s in the West.
@Peter and Aafke,
The Qur’an requires modesty, the devil in the details here is just WHAT is modest. The vast majority of Islamic scholars agree that modesty includes covering the hair, it is required of Jewish and Christian women as well.
Covering the face is NOT seen as a requirement by most scholars. As a matter of fact, I have always wondered how some can claim it is required when it is BANNED for women during the hajj?
It doesnt make sense, during hajj a woman’s face is going to be seen by tens of thousands of men. Why would God ban it during hajj, making it okay for men to view the faces of women, and other times making it forbidden?
The covering of the hair is clearly a requirement, as to how that is done, it is not agreed.
As to a woman’s choice, like anything else in life, God has given us free will. Women can make the choice to wear it or not to wear it.
Aafke,
You are barking up a loosing tree trying to argue with Muslim women that covering their hair isnt required. The vast majority of Muslim women will always tell you that covering is required whether they do so or not. The burka/niqab issue is different, but you are fighting a loosing battle with the hijab.
The hijab has been worn for thousands of years, first by Jews, then by their successors the Christians, and finally the Muslims.
Read this quote a long time ago ” Fanaticism consists in redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim. ” so i guess a fanatic could be from any religion.
What we should all aspire to is the freedom to choose, I think every individual should be able to wear whatever they choose and believe in wherever they want. This means wearing the niqab in france and wearing a short skirt in saudi. Since i don’t see that happening i can only infer that both countries do not place too high a value on freedom of choice. ( just my opinion)
“The greatest power that a person possesses is the power to choose. Choosing to live your life by your own choice is the greatest freedom you will ever have.”
I think that banning the burka is a very wrong move.It negates freedom. What are they thinking??
I do not like to see faces covered however. I especially get upset when I read that some women do not want to show their faces going through customs, in courtrooms and such. Like it or not those are security issues and all people need to comply to those rules.
Regarding the stabbing in Germany. I’ve certainly seen it on the news but it is not getting a lot of coverage nor should it. There are murders committed in every country every day and they are not major news. Some of crimes of hate. We would have absolutely huge newspapers and very long news hours if every one of these murders where reported on. It’s unfortunate but it’s true.
Wendy, you make a good point, actually, as I was googling the case to see if and how many newspapers reported it, I noticed there were multiple recent cases of stabbings and murders, and although the Dresden case got the most attention, I think for it’s sheer brutalness and the fact that it happened in a friggin’ courtroom, there have unfortunately been many more murders around the same time.
And why suddenly the ”all Germans must die”??? What about the Iranian government cheerfully popping off innocent women and girls? Why not ”all Iranian government must die’???
Oh, but those murders are in the end linked to the religious scholars who don’t want to loose control over a people who are fed up with them… And whatever scholars do is right, even if it murder of innocent muslims…
It is interesting. Do you hear the non-Muslims of the world yelling “all Muslims must die” when some wingnut or fanatic Muslim kills innocent people with car bombs everywhere for one small example?
On the covering issue – I seem to see older women in Russia, Portugal and Greece to name three countries that come to mind who always wear a headscarf. Mennonites, Doukhobors, Hutterites always have their head covered and wear long, enveloping clothing here in Canada. So far Canadians are not upset by any women covering but they do get a bit touchy about faces being covered.
Abu Sinan: The covering of the hair is clearly a requirement, as to how that is done, it is not agreed.
Again, you can use the word ‘clearly’ all you want but the fact is, it is not at all CLEAR to millions upon millions upon millions. What IS clear is that MODESTY is a requirement, as to how THAT is done, it is not agreed.
@munaqabah,
There are certain sects in hinduism ( south) where it’s considered inauspicious for married women to cover their head. they are supposed to cover the head after the husband is dead. Still they come to other countries and may be forced to cover their head.
– again this is just to highlight, what works for one person/religion may not work for others, so free choice is the best. what is modest in one area may not be considered modest in another. so leave it to individuals to dress a they please . either way’s governments should have much more important things to do than regulate the dress codes of the women living there. ( applies to both french and saudi)
sorry misspoke, should have said “cultural practice among certain hindu’s to cover the head after the husband dies” – again culture taking over religion
@Lynn,
When I say “clearly” I mean the scholars and the vast majority of Muslim women. You’ll find the hijab issue isnt that big of the deal in the Muslim world for EXACTLY this reason.
Talk to Saudi women and the covering bit doesnt really rate, but important issues would be talked about. It is the same in other counties.
You might not like it, but it is the majority view in the Muslim world that women ARE required to cover their hair, that is why it isnt that big an issue.
It is also a major point of frustration with fighters for women’s rights in the Muslim world, they cannot understand why the West is SO hung up on the issue when it really isnt on their radar.
Can you point to anything that says that there are millions and millions of Muslim women who think Islam doesnt require them to cover their hair?
I CANNOT be done so dont try to say that it is fact that millions upon millions of Muslim women deny it. That is just not true.
It really is a distraction to the real issues out there. Hijab rates VERY low on the list.
@Aafke,
The governments, most often supported by the West like Egypt, promote these ideas. Better to yell “death to Germans” than focus their anger on the real cause of the issues in their lives, the Egyptian government.
So the local governments and establishments focus the people’s anger OUTSIDE of their own countries. If allowed, these people would show you the REAL anger they have against their own leaders.
Lynn: “So, yeah, it did make it into the news in the U.S. and it didn’t sound like it went down anything like the way that you described it”
She was killed on Wednesday, and you read it today (Tuesday). There were virtually no international reports until about yesterday, and those were prompted by the reaction in Egypt. (And as Chiara pointed out, international agencies are saying that it didn’t get much coverage in Germany, either.)
The various reports said that her husband was shot by a security guard who assumed he was the atacker, and they described him as being “critically wounded”, “in critical condition” and “in intensive care”.
None of them mentioned how long the attack went on; we only have Aafke’s claim of 32 seconds.
Now that I’ve read the news reports that have come out, it seems like it went down exactly the way I described it. Why do you feel the need to argue even when there’s nothing to argue about?
“Additionally can one really determine whether someone is an “Islamic fanatic” by the way they dress? But first, how does one specifically identify an Islamic fanatic? What are the specific signs? Should there be such a label as an ‘Islamic fanatic?’ Is there such a thing as a Christian or Jewish fanatic?”
I think that, no matter what your religion/belief structure, there can be a line that can be crossed. I believe that line is when your tolerance and respect for other faiths goes in the gutter and you believe your way is the only way. If your intolerant and disrespectful in action or verbally, your a “fanatic” in my eyes.
Yes, Christians and Jews can also be fanatic. My mom is crazy fanatic. She is intolerant and believes “her” God is the right one and all others are wrong. She tests my diplomacy skills.
Read that Bedu!
” Isn’t this a bit presumptuous on the part of the democratic and free world?”
Yes.
“Shouldn’t muslim women around the world have the choice to choose how they wish to dress? ”
Yes.
In fact, whether they are muslim or not, shouldn’t it be up to the individual women on how conservatively or how liberal they wish to dress?
Yes and no. Showing too much skin is disrespectful to oneself and an insult to women worldwide. Thats my opinion. Being too conservative does not harm anyone in my view.
anthrogeek10 (who should not, as a future anthropologist make these judgements…but…)
“difference between France telling Muslim women they don’t want them wearing a burka/abaya and Saudi Arabia telling me, a Christian woman, that I must wear an abaya? Or that they don’t want me wearing a cross in public or carrying my Bible or…the list goes on and on. Isn’t it just the other side of the exact same argument? At least France is cloaking the issue in safety rather than straight-up intolerance.”
Good point Sand. Do you think what France is doing could be considered “tit for tat”?
anthrogeek10
Abu SInan: “You’ll find the hijab issue isnt that big of the deal in the Muslim world for EXACTLY this reason…”
Well, we don’t always agree
, but your post was exactly right. Most of the women I know wear hijab – although some don’t, and some wear niqab… and it’s just not something that we talk about much at all. (Well, except maybe talking about women who wear it but with tight clothes and lots of makeup – not that that’s actually “hijab”.)
The only reason it gets so much time on these blogs is because of the few people who just keep hammering away at the idea that it’s not required, which makes others feel the need to correct that, especially since many of the readers might not be Muslim and are looking for information.
The other thing I want to say about hijab (and niqab) is that these discussions give the impression it’s something horrible, and it’s not.
“A woman’s covering her face shouldn’t bother anyone else. (I notice no one’s complainiong about all these people walking around with face masks because of the H1N1 virus.)”
Your right. It shouldn’t bother anyone but it does apparently. However, in my view, it is superficial and pointless to make connections between two diabolically opposite things. One is for health reasons the other is religious and/or cultural.
anthrogeek10
Did I say that millions upon millions of ‘Muslim’ women? No, YOU did. But millions of Muslim women AND men and millions upon millions of non-Muslims (even those who are knowledgeable and educated about Islam – don’t forget ex Muslims).
‘It is also a major point of frustration with fighters for women’s rights in the Muslim world, they cannot understand why the West is SO hung up on the issue when it really isnt on their radar’
Maybe if these supposed fighters for women’s rights would put it on their ‘radar’ and look just a bit deeper into the ‘concept’ of hijab and what is behind it (keeping women separated and in their place not to mention blaming them if they get molested) they would see that that simple understanding IS an important first step towards gaining the rest of their rights.
Lynn,
It is nice that you, as a non Muslim, feel that as a Westerner you have a right to decide what Muslim men and women should have on their agendas. However, that is just the historic impact of Western colonialism where you feel you have a right to dictate to others coming through.
Muslim men and Muslim women know what is important for them, what they want and how they want to prioritise their struggles.
As a Muslim I can tell you that the vast majority of Muslim men and women accept the fact that the hijab is mandated by their religion. It isnt a big deal to us. It is a big deal to people in the West, like YOU, who think that Muslim men and women dont know what is good for them and hence need to to taught by non Muslim Westerners just what isnt and isnt important.
It is a highly arrogant attitude and is BEST left with the rest of colonialism and racism, in the dustbin of the world’s history.
We DONT need your help so you can keep advice and theories to yourself.
You have no more right telling Muslims what is and isnt important than Muslim have in dictating internal policies in Western countries, or dictating religious concepts to Jews or Christians.
On lOsing arguments about lOOse clothing OR
When clothing rules, even about lOOse clothing, are too rigid everyone lOses:
It seems clear, at least in the Quran, that Muslim women are to wear an outer garment (jilbab) when outside, so that they are identified by their faith and not harassed. Quran 33:
And also clear that they are not only to be modest but to cover certain parts of the body specifically, including head, neck, and bosoms: 024.031
Others have added conditions, and descriptions some more conservative than others, some including the niqab.
Women wearing the niqab in the West comply with the laws about appearances in court, for photo ID, etc. except when they are trying to make a political statement about their religion. Since Muslims are required by religion and host country to obey the law, changing it in the manner proposed in France is egregious.
As far as Saudi goes, no one is forced to move there, and all do so knowingly. Greater flexibility about religion and covering would be desirable, especially for expats, within reason, but that will be an internal Saudi issue, and others have remarked here that there is a lOOsening of requirements, and some have been allowed to lOse the abaya.
Abu Sinan–excellent points all! Needless to say I’m shocked that I agree with everything you said, since many times I only agree with part, and then there are the other times … LOL
@Chiara and Munaqabah,
Isnt interesting that although those in the West want us to follow their dictates and make the hijab a primary issue, that it is actually pushing together those with usually different viewpoints?
Not what those like Lynn would plan, but that is what happens when those from the outside try to push their agenda and their priorities on us, especially with little or no knowledge on the socities and communities in question…………not like they’d care anyways because they know better than the “natives” themselves.
“As a Muslim I can tell you that the vast majority of Muslim men and women accept the fact that the hijab is mandated by their religion. It isnt a big deal to us. It is a big deal to people in the West, like YOU, who think that Muslim men and women dont know what is good for them and hence need to to taught by non Muslim Westerners just what isnt and isnt important….”
Speaking from personal experience and living over half my life here in the “Muslim” world…the issue of hijab is hands down a hell of a lot more important to men then to women over here and other parts of the Islamic/Muslim world…otherwise we wouldnt have these so called Muslim men killing the females in their families over failure to cover “properly”.
So apparently it is a big deal for some Muslims…generally men…so thats a totally bogus statement.
Hijab/Niqab/Abaya is an issue that should be left in the hands of women…if that ayat is believed to be an obligation towards women to wear it…then its directed at women..so they should be the ones to make that choice…men should have NO say in it…since women are given very little say in a mans supposed right to collect wives on a whim…since that ayat is directed solely to men…just a thought.
@Coolred,
Even Carol has said it here, the hijab as an issue just isnt that big of a deal. Lumping it in with cultural issues like “honor killings” is sort of a non starter. We are talking about religious mandates here, and “honour killings” certainly fall outside of that……unless Christian Palestinians, Hindu and Seikh Indians, who all have problems with honor killings, are somehow bound by Islam? “Honour killings” as I have pointed out, happen in communities where there is no requirement for hijab, so it is clear linking hijab and honour killings doesnt fly. It is a wider societal issue with families and women.
I agree with you in the fact that it is a personal choice that should be left to women to make, no governments or even men should be involved.
But to think that it is a driving issue in the women’s movements in the Islamic world is to:
1. Not know any Muslim women active in women’s movements in the Middle East.
2. Be out of step with the majority of Muslim women.
Ask any Muslim woman in a place like Saudi what is more important, veil or the ability to drive? Veil or the ability to travel without permission? Veil or the ability to work in the career of her own choosing, or to work at all? How about veil or access to healthcare?
The veil would probably be about #20 on a list of about 25 things that are a priority to women in the Islamic world.
“As far as Saudi goes, no one is forced to move there, and all do so knowingly. ”
Chiara,
Diaspora of Muslims to non-Muslim countries is also a choice (most of the time). I know there are political asylum cases but they know somewhat what they are getting into. We in the USA (ideally according to the constitution) cannot be biased to someone on religious grounds (among other things). I am a huge believer in keeping to that with action. Muslims should be able to dress how they like in the West. With some exceptions like ID’s and drivers licenses, yes, the face should be shown on drivers licenses and ID’s otherwise-no license should be given!! Not all Western countries keep to what the USA has in our constitution and if they (Muslims) migrate there, they should be aware of those rules (although I am not saying I agree with the rules).
anthrogeek10
AbuSinan…I agree that there are more pressing issues in the muslim world for women than hijab/niqab etc…but fewer of them lead to a womans murder in the Islamic world. I was commenting on the fact that muslim women are routinely killed over failure to cover according to the men in their lives…and if these same men see covering as a relgious obligation for women…then counting it as cultural doesnt quite account for it. Its a bit of both…the men believe their women should be covered…and believe they have the right to mete out punishment for failure to cover…and feel that murder is the punishment that is required…so it starts with what is supposed to be a religious obligation (according to some) and ends with murder….the part that must concern muslims is the steps that lead from God telling Muslims to be modest…and women being murdered for failure to comply according to MENS standards.
One has to assume God would have seen that little issue of honor killing coming…and done something to head it off at the pass…oh yeah…He did…its called “choice”…we all are born with it…but some people dont accept that women have it by right….so why would God put women in a position to be susceptible to murder by the men in their families over an ambiguous ayat that DOES NOT clearly state to cover the head etc…but because most everyone assumes it does…some resort to murder to enforce it or correct it?
If the ayat was was more direct and less ambiguous imagine what more suffering women would be put through…scary thought.
Abu Sinan,
Need I remind you that you, like myself, are a westerner living in a western country? You are not a ‘native’ of an Arab land. Why then are you discussing hijab or women’s rights in the Arab world? You have no more right to discuss it or push your agenda on them than I do. Not that I have EVER said that ANY body in ANY country should change their dress codes for MY benefit. I don’t care what the hell they wear. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I don’t CARE!!! I don’t have to live there. But, if they want to know why their men might be vile animals that might go nuts at the sight of the skin of a woman’s forearm or leg then I can tell them where they might want to re-think things. I have as much a right to my opinion as you do. I only think that it is very possible that I, as a non Muslim, might have a more clear/unbiased opinion than you.
@Wendy
It is interesting. Do you hear the non-Muslims of the world yelling “all Muslims must die” when some wingnut or fanatic Muslim kills innocent people with car bombs everywhere for one small example?
Uh, yes. Why, don’t you?
@Lynn,
No reminding need, I am however a Muslim married to an Arab woman. Besides, this is a religious issue, so any Muslim can comment.
Westerners who are not Muslim have very little say in the matter. As a Muslim I most certainly DO have more right to an opinion on the subject, never mind having family in countries affected.
For some who doesnt care, like you claim, you sure spend a lot of time talking about it. I dont know about you, but I certainly dont spend a lot of time doing things I dont care about.
I think it is entirely obvious that even AS a non Muslim you have a more biased and unclear view than almost anyone here. As a matter of fact, you are one of the most bias people I have seen post here on this subject.
@Coolred,
It is not the hijab that leads to women’s murder. It is the male patriarchal society. Are you trying to say that women wouldnt be killed in “honour killings” if there was no hijab? Again, you’d have to explain why CHRISTIAN Palestinian women are killed in honour killings?
What do Christian and Muslim Palestinians have in common? It certainly ISNT religion, but it certainly IS culture. It is a cultural defect.
That is why Hindu women, in the hundreds, maybe thousands, are killed in Indian every year in honour killings, same with Siekh woman. Again, what do these women have in common with Muslim and Christian women killed in “honour killings”?
They have NOTHING in common other than patriarchal societies were the honour of the family is tied to it’s women. Hijab, no hijab, the murders would take place. Until the cultural defect is fixed the murders will continue, with heads covered or not.
Hijab is just an excuse to kill, oppress, judge and accuse over…it has nothing to do with a womans modesty and everything to do with how MEN view women. God doesnt need or care about womens hair…God has no sexual hangups or desires…and expects men to behave themselves…which means if men actually followed Gods commands to behave and lower thier gaze etc…then the “reason” for hijab becomes absolete. Men cannot behave (supposedly) and thus women are obliged to cover as some sort of protective armour…it obviously doesnt work and serves no purpose other than to cause judgement, ridicule, molesting and sometimes harm or even the murder of women .and yes of course…to make some Muslim women feel superior over other Muslim women…
doesnt sound very religious like to me.
We are discussing Muslim women here…hindus christians and jewish women have enough of their own problems…let them sort out their men…we shall work on ours…yes?
And using the Bible to pick and choose what we Muslims believe is bs…we point a finger at it and call it corrupted and leading Christians astray…then turn around and say “see,,, it says in there that women should cover”…and now we should believe in it because we find something to back us up as Muslims? Guess what…the bible was written by men for men and its ALL ABOUT MEN…so covering up women was a local pastime for them as well. Men of all ages have considered womens bodies as property that needs “do not touch my property” displayed plainly and clearly…thus covering is required for owned property.
Anyways…women will die at the hands of men for many many reasons…and for no reason at all…its a shame that a peice of cloth on her head “ordered” by God can bring about her death as well…or at the very least a spot in Hell come judgement day…what a harsh God we have to throw women in hell merely for such a trifling action…
i have read a lot of comments and now want to express my personal point of view.
i think any goverment doesnt have a right to say what women have to wear or not as we (europe) claim ourselves a democratic society..
but i completelly agree with those who said before that if we r against banning a muslim women from wearing abaya, burka, chador, headscarf, niqab or hijjab, why arent u against what is happening in saudi arabia..as i can understand there r some saudis here commenting below the article..so how can u be against what is happening in france if the same thing is a common for your OWN country..how can u be emberressed if the same is happening in the country u live.
i think this situation should be a lesson for all of us.. as well as muslim doesnt want to be forced by doing sth against their religion, non-muslims dont want to be forced by religion/tradition
p.s i have read somewhere that cross on a chest is not necessary..well it is necessary for some cristians as well as wearing black abaya, burka, chador, headscarf, niqab or hijjab for some muslims..
_munaqabah_ it is not up to u to think wether it is necessary or not to wear a cross and even thouth covering a body is not forbidden in bible, why do u think u can force your religion on other ppl? and what is the difference between this and a contest of the article above
To me, women should be free to choose what they want to wear no matter where she is from or lives. The key words are free to choose. If this freedom really exists there should be no problem. But if its your family, neighbours or nationals who decide, no freedom exists.
@Aafke,
You mentioned some historical stories in your comments which I may disagree partially on how you presented them, you also mentioned that banning Burka in France can be viewed as democratic decision if you count that The majority of the French population is against Hijab.
Here let me ask you, do you accept that your human rights such as freedom of dress, choice, freedom of expression, etc are subject to people approval? what Make France different from Saudi Arabia if France is standing against the human rights that they sing and feel proud of it all the time? also, do not you think that France became the European Taliban by interfering in people human rights? if Saudi Arabia is bad in human rights records why France should follow the Saudi model? unless we will give up calling for human rights. and let me tell you this fact, if wearing Hijab is put in public poll in Saudi Arabia, make sure that 90% of Saudi will vote for forcing wearing Hijab in Public and violating human rights will be democratic too in Saudi Arabia. because I stand with human rights and trying to help people to practice their human rights in any country, I will stand against banning Burka in France otherwise my voice will be meaningless and ineffective for change and for human rights in Saudi Arabia.
salam.
salamz to all, I’ll wear the saudi national costume (I refuse to call it anything else) the day men dress in equally stifling, freedom restricting, identity erasing, clothing.
And yes, SGIME, it is exactly parallel to persecution of all other religions in KSA – good point.
Anthrogeek: “yes, the face should be shown on drivers licenses and ID’s otherwise-no license should be given!! ”
I agree. There are many women driving around Kuwait with niqabs, but no one wears it on their driver’s license photo. It would defeat the purpose of ID.
ccolred: “I was commenting on the fact that muslim women are routinely killed over failure to cover according to the men in their lives”
A bit of exaggeration there? as usual…
Irina: “p.s i have read somewhere that cross on a chest is not necessary..well it is necessary for some cristians as well as wearing black abaya, burka, chador, headscarf, niqab or hijjab for some muslims.”
Well, I grew up Catholic, in the U.S., and I’m not aware of any Christian sect that requires wearing a cross. If there is one, let me know.
And keep in mind that in most Muslim countries, it would be no problem wearing a cross anyway; as has been said many time, Saudi is the extreme and not representative.
Anthrogeek–I think we are in agreement essentially. Muslims routinely remove the niqab for ID, and when some non-Muslims tried to make it a voting issue in Canada, Muslims women’s groups were quick to state that only a small minority wear the niqab and none would have a problem with removing it to vote (preferably in front of a woman election officer–which is no problem).
It is important to remember that the proposed initiative to create a law (not even a law yet) in France, is not a majority opinion in France, and not even a majority opinion of the elected politicians. It is more of an election ploy by Sarkozy, like that of the far right party that in the past proposed that French Arab and Black children (born in France to immigrant parents) should not be allowed to attend the 1-month summer camps that are universal in France. The moderate right decried the proposal but reassured the populace that if elected they would send “those people” back to their own countries–legally, of course. Fortunately the Mitterand won that election, and none of it happened.
Yes Saudi is an extreme. More extreme than Iran regarding segregation, driving, etc. Less extreme than the Taliban (who eliminated schools for girls, and restricted boys education, etc). The burqa is an Afghan cultural form of clothing that the Taliban (a specific tribe as well as a religious sect) imposed as “religious”.
It would be good if King Abdullah’s interfaith initiatives and recent statements about dialogue within Islam led to a greater freedom of religious expression in Saudi.
Abu Sinan,
Again, I do not care what a woman in another country chooses to wear. I DO start to care when they pass off their ‘cultural dress’ as a religious mandate and convince the daughters of America to don it whether it negatively affects them and their families or not. And there is something about the use of the word ‘clearly’ being used by those who wish to make it clear to others that if they think any differently then they must be somehow deficient in intelligence.
Abu Sinan, you and I are the same. We both started off as NON-muslim Americans. You did your research into Islam and for whatever reason you interpreted what you’d read to mean the hijab is a requirement. I did my own research and found the opposite to be true. There are plenty of intelligent Muslim men AND women who believe the same as I do regarding the hijab requirements. Are they just as biased and ignorant as I am?
If “veiling” whether fully or partially is supposed to preserve women’s modesty and prevent men from entering sin by viewing an unveiled woman. Wouldn’t a more salient solution be to just have men wear blindfolds in public?
ccolred: “I was commenting on the fact that muslim women are routinely killed over failure to cover according to the men in their lives”
A bit of exaggeration there? as usual…
No…not really.
_munaqabah_for ortodox cristians (witch is the second largest single Christian communion in the world) it can be very important and often ppl dont take off theor cross for whole life, considering it as the MUST to wear
@coolred38,
How is that NOT An exaggeration? I mean don’t get me wrong, I do understand that some killings do happen over infidelity. Where are these routine killings happening over clothes? I’m genuinely curious, so it’ll be greatly appreciated if you point me in the right direction.
Abu Sinan: “@Chiara and Munaqabah, Isnt interesting that although those in the West want us to follow their dictates and make the hijab a primary issue, that it is actually pushing together those with usually different viewpoints.”
Yes, that is interesting… so you’ve accomplished something, Lynn.
Irina: “_munaqabah_for ortodox cristians (witch is the second largest single Christian communion in the world) it can be very important and often ppl dont take off theor cross for whole life, considering it as the MUST to wear”
So is it a religious requirement? And does it have to be worn outside the clothes, so that it’s visible? Because when I was young, a lot of people wore crosses or crucifixes, but we usually had them inside our blouses, not as a piece of jewelry to be seen.
Lynn: ” I did my own research and found the opposite to be true. There are plenty of intelligent Muslim men AND women who believe the same as I do regarding the hijab requirements. Are they just as biased and ignorant as I am?”
Since you brought it up, maybe you could tell us a little bit about your research. Did you learn Arabic, study the Quran with its tafseer, study aqeedah, hadith and fiqh? Or did you pick up a few books, or read a few articles, by non-scholars (of Islam anyway) who had the point of view that you were seeking to validate?
phew that was indeed a long read, Religion the opium of the masses…Oh!! so true
@Rasputin
More like PCP.
Rasputin and Broke Saudi–how about a cocktail of opium (for the duration) and PCP (for the kick)–shaken not stirred? LOL
It seems to me the satyric nature of Saudi men is highly exaggerated. The one’s I’ve met all seem to manage to retain a normal healthy sexuality without voraciously attacking any passing bits of flesh. Yes of course this was outside of Saudi, but don’t repressed Saudis in Saudi manage to do the same? Don’t they leave the Kingdom for any more satyric urges, occasionally exploiting the poor (who seem to volunteer), sometimes having a temporary marriage (yes upsetting to all), but generally avoiding mass arrestations for individual or gang rape? It would seem so based on my experience in Morocco and Spain.
Munaqabah–to the best of my knowledge, fundamentalist and born again Christians are under self-imposed and sect-imposed pressure to wear the cross continuously. Catholics often do (which is why prominent observable crosses in schools and government buildings are disallowed under France’s laicity laws), and in the past wore the scapula as well. These are psycho-socio-religious, as opposed to theological, “requirements”.
@Coolred,
Hindus, Christians and others ARE important because YOU have made a claim that the hijab causes honour killings. It is then VERY proper to point out that honour killings happen frequently in places where there is no hijab……..hence hijab is NOT the issue, something else must be.
Again I’ll ask, do you contend that if the hijab was removed from every woman in the Islamic world tommorow that honour killings would end? Would they even be moderately affected?
I dont think so at all. Hijab is just often an excuse for violence that has it’s roots elsewhere. Remove the hijab and the excuse will be something different, the violence the same.
@Lynn,
I dont buy your idea that there are many Muslims out there who completely reject the idea of hijab. I have been all over the Muslim world for years and just havent seen it.
Please dont mistake Muslim women who do not wear the hijab as women who dont see it as an obligation. The vast majority of women I have known throughout the years, here in the USA and abroad who dont wear it STILL view it as a requirement.
The statement is always something along the lines of “Insha’Allah, I will some day put it on. God knows it is my intention”.
You are very bias and to a certain extent you seem to be one of those Westerners who converts to Islam and then wants to change the religion to suit your needs.
That isnt how it works. If you dont like Islam and it’s requirements, it’s easy………..dont be a Muslim.
AbuSinan…I did say that women have been and will continue to be killed over everything and nothing in the life…killing them over failure to cover adequately in the eyes of men is just another reason….but then the so called reason is attributed to assigning the hijab as obligatory by God…if we didnt read that ayat to mean an obligation then that reason would be taken out of the list of reasons to kill women. My point being…God knowing men as Im sure God does…why give them a reason to turn their murderous eye towards women in the form of a piece of cloth…when He knew what the result would be….some men believing that murdering an uncovered female of the family is perfectly acceptable because God ordered it and he is just enforcing it…or punishing for failure to comply.
Hijab is not ordered…modest dress is ordered for both genders….and plenty of Muslims believe that to be so…but because we dont have millions to spend on Qurans interpreted with our beliefs inserted in brackets…its not considered mainstream.
Ive been Muslim for over 23 years…surrounded by Muslims for everyone of those days of those years…some of them are fanatical about hijab (mostly men but some women too) some of them are rather lax as you said (I will wear it someday) and others understand it to be cultural and either wear it or not depending on their own beliefs and whims or desire to please the family. Not all Muslims believe the hijab to be ordered by God…so dont speak as if you asked them all or did some sort of survey….
Our voices may not be in the mainstream…it doesnt mean our opinions and beliefs dont count. God says I count and thats good enough for me.
@munaqabah..ur right : the cross has to be worn under clothes and it is definetely not a jewelry, yes it is requirement
however, the main poin of my comment was not about cross and wheather or not it is a requirement,
i wanted to say that forcing non-muslim women to wear abaya and headscarf in saudi is completelly the same as forbidding muslim women in france to wear this type of clothes
from your comment i understood that u dont think that those situation r equally discriminate ppl
“Whereas there’s nothing in her religion that prohibits a non-Muslim from covering herself in a way that she wouldn’t do in another country.”
yes it is not forbidden for us but it isnt the part of your religion..would u do everything that is not prohibitted in quran?
Unfortunately, like the media portrayed arab = male terrorist, the niqab/gloves/socks = woman terrorist with bomb underneath.
My Saudi friend started wearing the hijab (head scarf) a few years back out of her own conviction that she wanted to wear it. (not the black one…the colorful one.) Some people made fun of her and one ignorant person in a Washington mall went up to her and asked her if she was going to blow up the mall. So, I would say that it invokes fear in people due to the unknown.
I think that people tend to make assumptions about others from how they look. Rightly, or wrongly, it seems to be true. If you cannot see the face of someone, you do not know if they are male or female, stranger, friend, or foe. I think it even causes anxiety in many….but it’s just my opinion.
Broke Saudi, A quick and simple google search will show you that Yes, hijab the cloth AND the ‘concept’ is one of the causes of honor killings.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07232008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/an_american_honor_killing_121118.htm
‘…Few doubt that other honor killings have occurred behind closed doors. In upstate Monroe County just a few days ago, a girl was stabbed by her brother for wearing immodest western clothing and wanting to move to New York City. According to court documents, Waheed Allah Mohammad explained the stabbing by saying his sister was a “bad Muslim girl.”
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=24329
‘ …honor killing has nothing to do with Islam, but is merely a feature of Islamic culture in some areas. Aqsa Parvez was sixteen years old; her father, Muhammad Parvez, has been charged with strangling her to death because she refused to wear the hijab.’
Abu Sinan: ‘Again I’ll ask, do you contend that if the hijab was removed from every woman in the Islamic world tommorow that honour killings would end? Would they even be moderately affected?’
Of course I will say Yes, it would be a start! Then they can change the family law as they did in Morocco and Tunisia and eventually the men will stop treating the females like property that they have the right to dispose of if it does not please them.
@munaqabah
in addition to what i said above i want to say
if u talk about what is forbidden and what is not..
i want to ask u..is it written in quran that women have to wear black abaya and black headscarf?
as far as i know in islam women have to wear modest clothes..this what i found about this topic
“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not to display their adornment except that which ordinarily appears thereof and to draw their headcovers over their chests and not to display their adornment except to their [maharim]…”
so from this text (this is the part of quran) even if french goverment make this law legal, muslim women will be able to cover their bodies and heads with differnt type of clothes
Irina,
Yes, I think that the black color is what many are afraid of. The Pakistani muslim women have covered their bodies for ages without causing fear in others. The black garb in KSA is just a traditional color used there, like the color blue for jeans —used also because it’s not a transparent material.
@Coolred,
I didnt say all Muslims feel this way. I suggest you scroll up and see if you can cute and paste anything that said I did. I said the majority of Muslims, male and female, feel that the hijab is required. Anyone who has spent years around Muslims and in Muslim society will know this is true.
It is sad that you allow the violence of others to form your feelings. Myself, I form my opinions based upon what I feel is right and my experiences. If others dont like it, or threaten violence, so be it.
Using probably violence as an excuse to curtail or to form your views means democracy never would have been born and most of the freedoms we have today would have been stillborn. What is right is right no matter who threatens violence.
It is interesting to look at how Muslim women in the West, mostly free from hijab, feel about it. I think you’ll find it probably has MORE support from women here in the West where there is a right to choose, than in places where cultural pressure is stronger.
I have known more than a few Muslim women here in the US who have put on hijab after 9/11 and they ALL put them on against the wishes of the male members of their families.
I think this is what extremists miss, women given the choice of wearing it would probably do so in more numbers and moreso for the right reasons than under cultural pressure.
As for trying to blame God for what men do………..it is really a naff track to follow. I guess under that idea we could blame God for almost every murder and for all violence.
If you blame God for the deaths of those killed over modesty issues then you can also blame God for ALL religious violence? I mean……if God didnt want religious wars why did He allow different religions to be created? Why did He allow the Holocaust to happen?
Your argument is usually one made by atheists, not religious people.
@irina,
A Christian really has nerve to ask if religious beliefs are included solely in the religious text. As a former Christian I can assure you that some 75% of Christian beliefs are included nowhere in the New Testament.
munaqabah, did you learn Arabic, study the Quran with its tafseer, study aqeedah, hadith and fiqh BEFORE choosing Islam for yourself or AFTER?
PEOPLE – women’s mandatory covering singlehandedly keeps them in their place. Do NOT condone this as “religious”, “pious”, or even modest. MEN DO NOT HAVE THIS REQUIREMENT.
interestingly, i notice in nyc, that orthodox jewish women wear gorgous WIGS to hide their hair (?!).
There is nothing wrong with a woman’s body, hair or face. This is 2009.
Abu Sinan,
Of all those Muslim women you have polled throughout your travels in Muslim societies could you please tell me how many were educated? Did their educations include a history of religion? sociology? psychology? anthropology?
I think that it is pretty safe to say that the vast majority of Muslims around the world are NOT overly educated in religion. How many Muslims would you find in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan reading the bible or any other religious texts?
AbuSinan…I did not blame God for the murder that men do…I blame men for interpreting Gods words to mean they can and should punish where they see fit…there is a difference.
And if women of the west CHOOSE to wear hijab than that is their right…Im referring to women forced to wear hijab and punished for not doing so…there is a difference.
“Anyone who has spent years around Muslims and in Muslim society will know this is true.”
Is my 23 years living in a Muslim society not sufficient enough time for me to form an opinion of my own concerning what Muslims feel or dont feel…think or dont think…believe or dont believe? How many years constitutes validity of opinion for you?
Christians are not forced to wear a cross. The cross is in fact a pagan symbol so could also be taken as anti-Christian. For Christians of all faiths wearing the cross is a personal thing and self-imposed if they insist they must wear one. I also know of a few non-Christians who wear one.
@ Joseph, I do not see people parading in the streets with placards yelling “kill the Muslims”. I do not hear people in the streets yelling it or even whispering it. I don’t know where you live but not where I live and not on the news I watch either.
Abu Sinan,
i really dont mind muslim to wear what they want or what they feel is right..i believe that each religion can be interpretted differently by ppl..my comments were adressed mainly to @munaqabah..and my main point was if ur muslim from saudi and ur embarrass from the article so u have to disapprove the laws of your goverment towards non-muslim who live in ksa
@Coolred,
I agree with you when you say men have no right to punish women, but that doesnt mean that the hijab isnt required.
As to having an opinion on the subject, everyone with some experience and knowledge about any situation has a right to an opinion. As there has been no comprehensive polling done on the issue no one can have anything but opinions.
@Wendy,
A quick google search will find tens of thousands of incendary comments about Muslims from the USA and others in the West. People sat whilst the rising tide of anti-semitism lead to the Holocaust……..it will happen again in Europe if people do not watch it.
Wendy,
in otodox (cristianity) the cross is put on a person right after christening..this cross is the symbol that has to remind this person about the faith he/she has chosen and to help this person to avoid committing sins
Abu Sinan,
‘People sat whilst the rising tide of anti-semitism lead to the Holocaust’
i agree with u about this topic..we have to learn how to at least respect each other faith and belives..
‘it will happen again in Europe if people do not watch it.’
however, i dont think, it is actal only for europe..it reffers to all countries and to arab world too..if the amount of non-muslim ppl increase in those countries it can also easily cause such tragedies as Holocaust
@ Abu Sinan – I’ve no doubt you can find comments on the internet. I can find just as many against non-Muslims. I’m talking about people getting out into the street calling for ‘death to Germans” or whatever flavour of the day. You don’t see that happening as a rule against Muslims. I do not see a holocaust happening against Islam but of course if there is a continuation of the extremists acting as they do anything could happen I suppose.
@Irina – I’m not sure what Orthodox Christian religion you belong to and it doesn’t really matter as there are many facets to Christianity but you actually have proved a point. It is not mandated anywhere in Christianity/Bible that one must wear a cross. As in Islam a symbol such as a cross or a piece of fabric such as a hijab can be seen by some to be a MUST and by others, a choice. It is all in how something is interpreted at the time.
@Wendy,
The Germans rarely go into the streets for anything, but that didnt stop them from killing 6 million Jews. Sorry if I find the lack of lynching parties in Berlin comfortiing.
Well, they had a Hitler didn’t they? And we constantly remind ourselves of the Holocaust so, hopefully, it won’t happen again. Do you think that extremists are going to halt a disaster?? They are creating one!
@Wendy
I live in New York City.
If you don’t hear people yelling Orientalist and Islamophobic hate speech then perhaps that is because it is socially acceptable to speak about such things in a regular tone of voice.
Perhaps you are exaggerating to make a point? I find it very difficult to believe that you never hear/see anyone calling for the death of Arabs/Muslims/Islamic States based on the actions of a few.
I do, all the time.
But I do not mean to derail this productive conversation about covering. I was just flabbergasted by your comment.
Joseph, I live in Canada where we generally don’t do things like that. I am not in NYC fortunately. I hear your point but it is something that is not on the news and is not widespread. Americans, especially New Yorkers can be a bit paranoid. Yes, lets not derail this subject.
@Wendy,
The slogon “Never Again” is a joke. It has happened many times since then. Muslims in Bosnia were slaughtered by Christians as the West sat and watched. The West only got involved when the Muslim and Croat troops were making advances and it looked like Russians might be drawn in to defend the Serbs.
Muslims and Christians are murdered on a daily basis in Palestine with no real action taken by anyone in the West.
As to creating a disaster, so you think fanactics can be blamed for genocide? Is that an argument you’d make against Jews?
That is really an AWFUL statement. No people brings a genicide upon themselves no matter what a minority of fanatics might do.
@Joseph,
Nice to see you here and good points. No need to yell or shout anything when this type of speech is okay.
Being a white guy I hear things that people wouldnt often say in mixed company because I am sure they think the big white guy with tattoos would agree with them. It offers me an insight that others might not have, or wouldnt at least talk about it.
We even have a US Congressman who has suggested nuking Mecca. How long would he have been in office if he had suggested bombing Tel Aviv the next time the Israelis kill a few hundred women and children in Palestine?
@abu sinan – I stand corrected, okay? And I didn’t mean to imply that people bring it on themselves. I just meant that the extremists are people to be afraid of and their acts feed into people’s fears including other Muslims. I don’t like what Israel is doing either.
@Abu Sinan I agree with your response to Aafke. Hijab is indeed clearly required but face covering is not. Abaya is not but modesty is (abaya is just very handy inside and outside the ME) Niqab is optional or as my wife sees it, it is extra worship like praying extra raka’a.
@Wendy in fact there is no issue with ID for niqabi’s as they can be inspected by a female person. And if there is no female available a man will have to do as long as it is done discretely (when in the west) In de Middle-East we have never had issues, in the west we have had issues but with kindness and a bit of understanding things get arranged discretely.
@Wendy,
Extremists, I fear them, but my real fear is for what the average person does out of ignorance. They are the ones behind most genocides and mass murders in world history.
@Peter,
I’d agree with you. My wife once told me a story about a woman she knew in Saudi. Where they lived niqab was/is optional, but the lady I guess was VERY beautiful and had made a choice of her own to cover her face.
@ Abu Sinan,
Ignorance is the biggest threat! Keeping people uneducated and fearful is how the crazies/extremists/meglomaniacs keep control. There are some countries now where all of that is soooo very obvious!
@Miriam Mac, Wendy, as a muslim I stopped caring longtime ago about the size and color of hijab my wife wears. These ignorants will always want you to do something else. Color scarf is acceptable, black is not, small is acceptable large is not, however small and black is not acceptable, etc etc. For muslims indeed hijab issues are not on the radar and no big issue at all, it is ignorants that make it an issue or try to deny it is an obligation.
So rather than trying to please ignorants please Allah and wear modest clothing of your choice and convenience, of course having the head covered appropiately. Anything else , hands and face coverage is optional and up to the judgement of the woman wearing it NOT the ignorant bystanders. After all they will not be judged but rather the woman herself.
I am enjoying reading all the comments and such differing points of views. Amazing how a simple (or perhaps not so simple) subject can generate so many points of views. You all have inspired me and stay tuned for before the month is out I have another post coming up on extremism and in which everyone will be asked to participate….
“…NOT the ignorant bystanders. After all they will not be judged but rather the woman herself….”
How about when those ignorant bystanders doing the judging are Muslims themselves?
“As to having an opinion on the subject, everyone with some experience and knowledge about any situation has a right to an opinion. …”
Agreed…but by using the word “some” you are assuming a passing interest or a general perusal of Islamic information etc…in other words…your assuming most of the people on this blog have only studied the basics of Islam…learned from tv’s, news, senationalistic books and websites etc….while that may be true for one or some of the commentors on this blog…it is obviously not true for all of us.
Some of us have spent a bit more time studying this religion we proclaim adherence to….and have formed our opinions etc based on our studies. Whether or not that study leads us to believe something different then the “mainstream” doesnt imply we are wrong or misguided…it just means we have come to a different conclusion. And SOME of us are ok with those difference of opinions…
@Coolred,
I am well aware that some people here have extensive knowledge about Islam and the Middle East, some more than I. I have no issue with that at all.
As to differences of opinion, I have no problem with that. I love to debate and at the end of the day each person is responsible for the choices they make. I dont have to live with and answer for the BS that some people believe so it is no sweat from my brow!
At the end of the day I am all for freedom of choice so I think everyone should be able to do what they want even if it is stupid, as long as it doesnt hurt others.
As to “ignorant Muslims judging others” I think they get the same treatment ignorant non Muslims get. I think I have made it clear here how disappointed I am with the Muslim communities and Muslims I have met, so you wont get me to defend either Muslims or their communities, only the religion itself.
@ wendy
what part of canada do you live in? because i live in toronto and we do hear that stuff all the time here and i am muslim…. maybe you dont but it is on the news…remember the niqab while voting story, or the niqabi who was testifying in court? this was just recently and it was on the news and in the newspaper. and i have heard people yelling and talking in there normal voices things that are offensive…… go to toronto star or cbc website and read the comments from canadians on articles about muslims. canadians are just as paranoid as americans… the only difference is in canada they dont “randomly select” you to be checked at the airport
Abu Sinan is AWESOME. Because she does not set her values before the values of Islam and then modify Islamic teachings according to her comfort, rather understands WHY Islam has ordered us to do what we are doing and simply follows it.
As for the rest of you, whatever you are saying, Hijab being a personal choice, dressing up modestly ONLY, hijab doesnt count as long as you have a glitterish scarf drawing a billion attentions, Hijabi women are fanatics, whatever whatever whatever. Please bring me the right interpretation of the Aayah from ANY ONE scholar of Islam.
And if their opinion are different from yours, they are not wrong, YOU ARE WRONG.
Carol, shoot me now. Once again a world religion has been hijacked over pieces of material.
As a muslim, educated in ksa, i think it would be wise if we focussed on ideas rather than ways to keep 1/2 the population believing they are doomed if they do not follow tribal dress and customs.
Islam (or any religion) is more than a dress code.
@ Amirah
You can read stuff about Sikhs, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc. etc. as well. I live on the west coast and there are always people getting upset about the Chinese or the Sikhs or something like that. Consider the source of the people who make the slurs. They don’t represent the whole country. All countries will spout racism. I’ve talked to my Muslim husband at length about this. He doesn’t feel Muslims are especially singled out but he agrees that they will sometimes over-react. I am with Canadians who don’t want niqabs being worn to vote or in court. We have laws in Canada and when people want to immigrate here they should abide by them and not expect us to change our laws to suit them. I would not expect Saudi to accommodate me and change laws for me if I chose to live there. Do you think my husband hasn’t had racial slurs. Of course he has! Does he want to start taking people to court or having fights over it? No – he won’t lower himself to those people. Does it ruin his life? No!! He loves Canada and the people.
And yes, Canadians are just as afraid of extremists as everyone else is. We do not carry placards saying ‘death to Muslims’ and I can’t see it happening.
@ Amirah, sorry – just want to add that there is far more racism in Canada against the First Nations than any other peoples and they are indiginous peoples here. Doesn’t say much for us as Canadians in that regard, does it?
Lynn: “munaqabah, did you learn Arabic, study the Quran with its tafseer, study aqeedah, hadith and fiqh BEFORE choosing Islam for yourself or AFTER?”
A basic level before, and much more after… and continuing, because there’s so much there to study.
So what was YOUR research?
Irina: “i want to ask u..is it written in quran that women have to wear black abaya and black headscarf?”
Irina, the Quran doesn’t go into those details.What is agreed among all schools of Islamic law (and when there is a consensus like that, there’s no valid disagreement with it) is that when women are with non-mahram men, they are to wear long, loose, opaque clothing that covers everything but the face, hands and feet. (Some scholars say those, too; that’s where there’s a valid disagreement.) They also shouldn’t be wearing makeup (if their face is not covered) or perfume.
There is no requirement to wear black, but that’s a custom in the Gulf.
Lynn, the examples in the article you mentioned were not honor killings because of hijab. The article is a about man who killed his daughter because she was leaving her husband. It also refers to a young man who stabbed (not killed) his sister for “going to clubs, wearing immodest clothing and planning to leave her family for a life in New York City”.
Let me be clear that I don’t condone “honor” killings or stabbings. But let’s be accurate… as several people have pointed out, it is simply not true that it is “routine” for women to be killed for not wearing hijab. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of such a case.
munaqabah: ‘So what was YOUR research?’
Almost exactly the same as yours as a matter of fact. A basic level before, and much more after… and continuing, because there’s so much there to study.
There was no evidence in that article on honor KILLings that the sister did not die from her stab wounds that he inflicted on her for dressing immodestly. Immodestly = no hijab. Whether she actually died or not is completely irrelevant to the point. As for the other artice:
‘Aqsa Parvez was sixteen years old; her father, Muhammad Parvez, has been charged with strangling her to death because she refused to wear the hijab.’
Again that said -strangling her to death because she refused to wear the hijab-
What more do you need? No one here is saying that it was ‘routine’ but that too does not matter but I’m 100% sure that it happens a whole lot more than anyone even knows. The fact of the matter is, it happens. How can you say that you never heard of a case? The Aqsa Parvez case was not that long ago and it was all over the news! You know, considering it was a Muslims acting crazy and all, that’s got make the big news! I can’t believe you didn’t hear about it.
munaqabah,
my main point was to appeal to one of your comment when u said that the politics of saudi goverment cant be compered to what is discribed in the article and that happened in france..
‘one difference is that the Muslim woman believes that this is a part of her body that needs to be covered, and she can’t go out in public with it uncovered… Whereas there’s nothing in her religion that prohibits a non-Muslim from covering herself in a way that she wouldn’t do in another country.
The same with wearing a cross – it’s not a religious requirement for a Christian to wear a cross, but it is a religious requirement for a Muslim woman to cover herself (everything but face, hands and feet are agreed upon; there are different opinions about those).’
so i wanted to say that forcing islam on non-musilms is not acceptable (as u said abayas and headscarf is parf of islam. so why do u involve non-muslims into islam, do u think it is not forbidden to be involved into other religion in cristianity?). The fact is that saudi goverment makes more religious pressuse then all europian countries together
so before u become insulted or emberresed from action of sarkozi, think first about the country u live in
cos it is always easier to judge other ppl/countries and without noticing what is happening next to u
Heee, yes! If you really want to make an equal equasion it would have to be that christian countries force muslim women not only not to wear abayas and niqabs, but whopping big crosses around their meck, or stars of David in Israel, that would make the equasion equal.
~In KSA foreign women have to wear abaya and hijab,
~in France muslim women are not allowed to, + they have to wear a big crucifix and rosary and carry a bible at all times!
Lynn, it’s silly to argue something that is just a fact. Read the news reports The woman did not die from the stab wounds, and the argument took place as she was leaving the family home in upstate New York to go live in New York City. I don’t know how you conclude that immodest dress = no hijab; the other thing that caused a problem with her family was that she was going to nightclubsclubs, so I would guess that the immodesty was more than simply not wearing hijab.
The other woman was leaving her husband; I remember reading about it at the time.
Covering the head and body is something that was characteristic of women in many cultures around the world, over the years; it’s not specifically – only – Islamic. Even in some cultures today, older women wear scarves on their heads; I think others have mentioned Amish and Mennonites (Christians), nuns (Catholic and Orthodox) and Orthodox Jews. Just look at any picture of Mary (mother of Jesus).
Honestly, I don’t see what the big deal is. You throw the thing over whatever you’re wearing when you go out… Especially compared to the major problems women have in some other places (that get almost no attention).
For those who say everyone should be free to wear – or not wear – what they want, well, there are dress codes (official or not) in every country, in workplaces, for different occasions, etc. The question is not letting everyone wear what they want, because that never happens. (Even in nudist colonies, they often have a rule that you can’t wear any clothes.) The question is what should be the basis for the dress code.
Requiring the hijab is not forcing Islam on non-Muslims (or even Muslims), it is requiring people (women and the men who love them, are responsible for and to them), to conform to the currently accepted and/or enforced customs of the country, and its “rules’ if not laws. All countries have the right to do this, ie enforce behaviour compliant with their “us et coutumes”, manners and customs, including to tourists let alone residents.
The French don’t force anyone to wear religious symbols, or traditional dress from their home countries. They do enforce appropriate attire, including monokini unless it is a nude beach. I did see the police escort aa nude man off a monokini permitted, non-nude beach, after being called by a concerned father.
Aqsa Parvez, according to the best friend with whom she was staying, was not killed because of hijab, which her own female family members didn’t wear. She was killed because of ongoing family conflicts about her Westernization, including wanting to go to nightclubs, staying with other Westernized friends after school, living away from home, wearing skimpy not just Western clothes, and general rebellion within the family.
All major Muslim groups condemned her murder and the local Imam of a major Islamic centre made it clear that the murder was not only condemnable, but in no way Islamic. Muslim feminists were clear this was a case of domestic violence, and it is being treated according to the Canadian criminal code. Her father was charged with first degree murder for killing her by strangulation with premeditation, and her brother with obstructing a police investigation. The only ones really fussed about the hijab were the Western media.
Munaqabah–generally agreed and particularly with your comment immediately above, at 2:01.
Peter x2–Agreed!! Bystanders of all ilks, ignorant or not, Muslims or not, should respect a women’s choice, and respect that it is a choice.
Amirah–Agreed! The greater “problems” are where the population of Muslims is highest, in Toronto and Montreal, and of course in Ottawa where the impact of 9/11 has resulted in “war measure” style capabilities of arrest and imprisonment of Muslim men/boys, the majority of whom turn out to be innocent.
YQ–Abu Sinan, though well deserving of your accolades (at least on this thread LOL
), is a man, the biological father (Abu) of a boy named Sinan, and one named Sayf. 
Aafke
right..that is true! and that is why i say to those who r from ksa that before judging france or any other country, they have to look at rules in saudi arabia.
You can put it very simply: covering the hair and body is common in cultures where women are degraded to secondclass citizens, sexual objects and property of men.
In cultures where women have their equal rights they generally do and did not cover. In some older cultures where women could be proud of being a woman, where they had power and independance they walked around barebreasted.
It is entirely probable that apart from the Jewish inhabitants the culture of Mecca and Medina was based on a Goddess religion, Three Godesses were worshipped in the Kaaba before Islam: Allat, Al Uzza and Al Manat. In a Goddess religion women are respected and independent, and maybe they wore dresses which showed their breasts, and that the injuction in the Quran about covering the breasts was included because of this.
“In a Goddess religion women are respected and independent, ”
Well, maybe in the pagan religion but not in practice/real life. Pre-Islam, women were traded like commodities, sometimes buried alive as infants and wife beating was common, as was unlimited polygamy.
anthrogeek10
@Aafke,
Saying that pagan gods were worshipped in the Kabbah BEFORE Islam is a bit wrong. Allah, the God of the Jews, Christians and Muslims was worshipped there first. It was built as a building of God, pagans later took it over.
You also need to understand that covering the head isnt only a Muslim thing. Try entering into a Christian Orthodox church in Ethiopia without your head covered and see what happens!
I just think if you are really interested in women’s rights that the hijab is a REALLY poor thing to concentrate on.
It might seem important to you as a Western woman, but you just ARENT going to get Muslim women worked up over the issue because it is the least of their worries.
As to so called “honour killings” I dont think I have ever heard of someone being killed for just not wearing hijab. It is usually the hijab issue and other issues that end up in the violence. It will almost always be about immodest clothes AND behavior. In my years as a Muslim and traveling the Muslim world I have never heard of someone killed because they let some hair show through their hijab. it is usually the clothes issues, partying, going out with me, ect.
It doesnt justify it, but it is not truthful to say that most honour killings have anything to do with just the hijab.
Athrogeek, that may have happened, but I think that the people who committed those atrocities were not from a Goddess religion. It’s the patriarchal religions where female infanticide is practised. At least that is what we can make up from sources which can be checked up on today.
It’s when women become a worthless burden that they want to get rid of the worthless baby-girls.
AbuSinan, I’m by no means hooked on hijab alone, it just happens that that is the subject of this post!
On the contrary, I think that female specific dress restrictions are the result: when a society takes away womens rights and delegates them to second class sex-posessions for men.
This insistance scholars put in hijab is the result of the lack of respect and erosion of women’s independence and worth as individuals.
And don’t blame me for making covering a point; I didn’t start it! Look at all those people condemning women for not covering, claiming that any uncovered woman will burn in hell? How obsessed is that? Or that any women who is not covered can/should be raped? And they don’t say that after reading my comments, this is going on despite of me
Sorry Abu, the hijab-obsession isn’t mine, it’s the current muslim society’s obsession.
PS, AbuSinan, Goddess religions are way, way older than the modern Abrahamic religions. I think they may have reclaimed the ”black stone” at some point, but it is chronologically impossible that Jews, Christians or Muslims were there first.
Nor should it bother anybody. We all know that the current Abrahamic religions are the most recently developed ones.
And after all, ”black stones” were/are worshipped all over the Earth. The kings of England had to be seated over a stone to be crowned.
Aakfe,
So you are saying no Christian, Muslim or Jewish shrine was the first religious monument at that place?
If you believe Christian, Jewish and Muslim stories then you think that God, Allah, was the first worshipped, from Adam and Eve on.
Anyway, just because there was a monument at the site of the Kabbah doesnt mean it was always involved with pagans.
It is entirely possible Jews got there first, unless you contend EVERY site in the world must have had a pagan origin no matter where it was built. It is entirely possible that the spot had no interest to the pagans until the Jews monument was built there. Just because you contend paganism is older than the People of the Book doesnt mean they were at every spot first.
When you go off on stuff like this you are going to loose ANY Muslim, or Christian or Jew, that might be following what you have to say.
Things like this alienate people, not the way to go if you are trying to change people’s minds and opinions.
Just a hint………attacking Islam or saying things are percieved as such will make your fight a loosing one.
@Aafke,
BTW……the black stone at the Kabbah isnt worshipped. If you think so you need to revise those thoughts.
I have seen the Stone of Scone, as you mention. BTW……..it isnt black.
Aafke: “Three Godesses were worshipped in the Kaaba before Islam: Allat, Al Uzza and Al Manat. In a Goddess religion women are respected and independent”
None of the idols that you mentioned were in the Kaaba; Al-Lat was a stone in Taif, Al-Uzza was a tree between Taif and Makkah, and Manat was between Makkah and Madinah.
Abu Sinan, I have a picture of the black stone of mecca. Mecca was a holy site long before Islam came to be in existence, it seems to me that just as christian churches are often built on older sacred places in Europe, Islam has taken over the most holy place of pre-islamic Arabia.
Aafke, according to Islamic sources, people settled in Makkah after the Prophet Ibrahim took his wife Hajar and his son Ismail to live there and the well of Zamzam was found; Abraham and Ismail built the Kaaba (which is why some of the Hajj rituals are based on their experiences).
Other Islamic traditions say that Adam was the first to worship there, and Abraham and Ismail rebuilt it. Either way, it started out as worship of the one true God, and later generations changed that, although there were always people who refused to worship the idols (Abu Bakr, for example).
Aafke,
“Athrogeek, that may have happened, but I think that the people who committed those atrocities were not from a Goddess religion. It’s the patriarchal religions where female infanticide is practised. At least that is what we can make up from sources which can be checked up on today.
It’s when women become a worthless burden that they want to get rid of the worthless baby-girls.”
There are very few matriachial societies on earth. Some yes. None of them are dominated by one of the Abrahamic faiths. Actually, I took Islam and its Empires from a University of Chicago professor and Read much of the book A History of Islamic Societies by Lapidus. Moral behavior was in the gutter before Islam. Many of the cultural behaviors exhibited in the Arabian continent do not necessarily coinicide with Islam and they have alot to do with centuries of enculturaltion. Abu Bakr (first guided caliph as you may know) was one who fought Muhammad regarding beating of women. Muhammad told him no and Abu Bakr protested.
You know as well as many that behaviors in a culture do not necessarily reflect the moral codes of the practiced faith.
anthrogeek10
@Aafke,
I understand the Kabbah was there before Islam. I have pointed this out before to you but maybe you missed it. Muslims do NOT feel that their faith started with Mohammed, rather with Adam, Moses, Abraham and the other prophets. So it would be incorrect to think that because the Kabbah was around before Mohammed that it was built by the earliest monothiests who are the very begining of Islam itself.
You go very wrong when you seperate Islam from Judaism and Christianity, that isnt how we as Muslims see things. We are the descendents \of first the Jews, then the Christians, so it is all part of our claimed heritage.
Abu Sinan
It is true that majority of Arab Muslims do accept that hijab is mandated by their religion. It is not a big deal to you. But you are forgetting Persian Muslims, Indonesian muslims and some Muslims in Europe and Asia. Many Iranian women do not want to wear hijab, you seem to think they all do. You are wrong. Many Indonesian muslim women started to wear hijab because of SA and gulf states influence and money.
It seems to me that it is you who are arrogant in the belief that what Arabs think and do and feel is the same what non-arab Muslims think or feel or do. I know that majority of reverts, particularly in Europe and America take their marching orders from Saudi Arabia, but not all Muslims agree with that.. And I believe it is wrong to say that all Muslim women want to be hijabi.
btw tell me which sura tells women to wear hijab? Hmm……………..?
Personally, if someone want to wear hijab it’s her decision, but it should not be a rule but a choice. Because it is not in Quran.
Muslims in Bosnia where not slaughtered by Christians as the West sat and watched . I would like to remind you that it was the NATO who bombed Serbia to smithereens, because of Bosnia. You are also forgetting that in Bosnia muslims killed Christians with a money received from Saudi Arabia. But in fact the whole matter over there was not really religious, it was more because of economy and distribution of governmental positions among serbian and bosnians.
.
Coming back to burka – I really would like it to be banned, not from the streets of western countries but from the governmental offices. In my view banning has nothing to do with religion, it has everything to do with recognition who are you talking to, working with and giving documents to. If I am talking to burka clad woman I do not see who I am talking to, can not see her reaction, nothing . It’s that simple.
Wendy
Racism is everywhere, in Canada as well as in the Middle East. In fact racism in Canada is tiny compared to other countries.
chiara
Westernization for her was not wearing hijab, and having boy-friend. And skimpy clothes were skimpy in her brother’s mind, brother who helped his father to kill her. According to other of her friend she was killed because she did not want to wear hijab.As for condemnation – the Muslim group said that it is not Islamic and that such things happen in every community That is is is normal domestic stuff in all communities in Canada – killing daughter because of what she is doing or behaving. As for You are also wrong, Muslim feminists were not all clear about it – , some muslim feminist were clear, that it has nothing to do with Islam, some, but not all..
“Even Carol has said it here, the hijab as an issue just isnt that big of a deal. Lumping it in with cultural issues like “honor killings” is sort of a non starter. We are talking about religious mandates here, and “honour killings” certainly fall outside of that……unless Christian Palestinians, Hindu and Seikh Indians, who all have problems with honor killings, are somehow bound by Islam? “Honour killings” as I have pointed out, happen in communities where there is no requirement for hijab, so it is clear linking hijab and honour killings doesnt fly. It is a wider societal issue with families and women”–Did anyone read this? :s Just curious. I just want whoever missed this part of a comment by Abu Sinan, to read it. ^_^
______________________________
“Peter, It’s not me alone who thinks Hijab and niqab and abaya isn’t called for by the Quran, so I think you are the one who is wrong. End of discussion I think.”
Tahreef, is a serious offense. We do not like tahreef.(I can see people rambling about this in the near future)
I really don’t get why you are insisting Hijab is not called for in the Quran, when you are not muslim. Are you planning on converting anytime soon but have a problem with this part? At least france banned the hijab without tahreef in someone else’s religion.
Not all expats wear the abaya here(as demonstrated by Carol and others) and the laws are almost always bended to help them adjust. Maybe not to the extent they’d like, still there’s a lil bending( we are such monsters, aren’t we?)
“~In KSA foreign women have to wear abaya and hijab,
~in France muslim women are not allowed to, + they have to wear a big crucifix and rosary and carry a bible at all times”
Assuming that Saudi’s that strict on expats, uh excuse me, is there anything in the bible against wearing the abaya? Afterall it is but a piece of clothing, right? It’s different when you compare an obligation by one’s faith, to something that does not hurt someone else’s faith because the action isn’t against their beleif. It’s not like they asked them to read the Quran and go to juma’a prayer. That said the freedom of choice, to wear, or not wear the abaya is always best. Still the comparison you came up with would be like me not being allowed to eat meat around say, Hindus in India (to my knowledge it’s ok to be a muslim vegeterian:P); and not allowing them of an obligation say, fasting on a day that isn’t Ramadan(this is a losuy example, but i hope you get my point).
Oh, I’ve never ever seen a non-muslim expat wear the hijab. Ever. Or even being forced to wear it. 3sa 3yoony el3ama if I’m lyng to you.
Ella
Thanks for your comment. I don’t want to go too far into this, but Aqsa had initial difficulties with some family members because of not wearing hijab which she did gradually, and like many girls, at school. She eventually wore alot of makeup, plunging necklines, body hugging clothes, and liked to pose for pictures, teen fashion magazine model style (they are online), including on her facebook page. She was at least flirtacious, loved to dance, and had left home once before (to a shelter after being hit at home), and then recently again to a friend’s house. Her friends were more Westernized than her family liked. She was more “radical” at school in the 3 months prior to her death because the older sister who used to tell on her had graduated. We seem to agree she wasn’t killed over the headscarf but other behaviours.
There are many Muslim groups in Canada, and feminist Muslim groups. All the ones I read were clear that honour killing is not Islamic (though sometimes done in the name of Islam), condemned domestic violence, and advocated other positive solutions to family conflict. None claimed that her father’s behaviour was the norm. CAIR and “The Islamic Social Services Association” added that domestic violence is not unique to the Muslim community. The Western press were more focussed on hijab (at least in the headlines) and how to make “them” more like “us”, and the failure of immigrants to acculturate. Some rightfully situated this as a 1st vs 2nd generation intrafamilial conflict which occurs in all immigrant groups, though not all have culturally accepted honour killings.
Her brother picked her up at a bus stop and told her to come home to get some clothes. He is not charged with aiding and abetting or murder, but only with obstructing the police investigation after the fact, since his father ordered him not to talk to the police, and he wouldn’t .
This was initially raised as relevent to the post and comments by Lynn above citing an article that stated Aqsa was killed by her father for not wearing hijab. I only wanted to point out that the behaviour that escalated her father’s violence to the point of killing was far beyond hijab, and immediately preceded by her leaving home to live with a more liberal friend and her family–bringing shame on her own.
Abu Sinan X multiple–Agreed!
Aafke–the only sources I have seen call pre-Islamic Arabia a goddess dominated matriarchy are Wiccan. If I recall correctly, Fatema Mernissi in “Beyond the Veil” described women pre-Islam as having more rights in some ways, and being less protected socially in others. She, a feminist Muslim sociologist, who wrote this in the radical 70′s, didn’t call it a matriarchy.
@Ella,
You have a very selective reading and understanding of the conflict in Bosnia. Muslims in Bosnia were slaughtered for YEARS before NATO got into the picture. They only got into the picture because of gains made by the Muslims and Croats against the Serbs on the battlefield threatened to draw in other countries into the fighting.
Years passed and more than a hundred thousand Muslims were killed BEFORE NATO got involved. Yeah, Muslim fighters got involved and I am glad they did. The West ignored the issue and allowed the Muslims to be slaughtered, even worse they BANNED weapons from being shipped to the Muslim to even allow them to fight back whilst the Russians were shipping large amounts of arms to the Russians.
You can speak all you want about what you READ, but I was there right after the worst of the fighting and saw it first hand.
It doesnt matter WHY the fighting started, you can justify the genocide all you want. If the West had lived up to the useless slogon, “Never Again” the Saudis wouldnt have had to send money, but the West decided that Muslims werent worth saving.
You can go back to the NATO action YEARS after the fighting started, but that was self serving and not meant to save the Muslims, rather to keep the fighting from spreading. If not for Muslim gains on the battlefield there would have been years more slaughter. As a matter of fact, the NATO bombing kept the Muslims from following up on their gains and taking back more of their land.
Too little, too late, for the wrong reasons.
@ Ella
To clarify – I never said there was NO racism in Canada. I said Canadians were more racist to First Nations and that Muslims were not singled out for racist slurs any more than any other group/religion. I will say (as you indicated) that we are not generally out in the street marching and screaming against anyone. It is the new immigrants who do that upon occasion.
“Even Carol has said it here, the hijab as an issue just isnt that big of a deal. Lumping it in with cultural issues like “honor killings” is sort of a non starter. We are talking about religious mandates here, and “honour killings” certainly fall outside of that……unless Christian Palestinians, Hindu and Seikh Indians, who all have problems with honor killings, are somehow bound by Islam? “Honour killings” as I have pointed out, happen in communities where there is no requirement for hijab, so it is clear linking hijab and honour killings doesnt fly. It is a wider societal issue with families and women”–Did anyone read this? :s Just curious. I just want whoever missed this part of a comment by Abu Sinan, to read it. ^_^
______________________________
“Peter, It’s not me alone who thinks Hijab and niqab and abaya isn’t called for by the Quran, so I think you are the one who is wrong. End of discussion I think.”
Tahreef, is a serious offense. We do not like tahreef.(I can see people rambling about this in the near future)
I really don’t get why you are insisting Hijab is not called for in the Quran, when you are not muslim. Are you planning on converting anytime soon but have a problem with this part? At least france banned the hijab without tahreef in someone else’s religion.
Not all expats wear the abaya here(as demonstrated by Carol and others) and the laws are almost always bended to help them adjust. Maybe not to the extent they’d like, still there’s a lil bending( we are such monsters, aren’t we?)
“~In KSA foreign women have to wear abaya and hijab,
~in France muslim women are not allowed to, + they have to wear a big crucifix and rosary and carry a bible at all times”
Assuming that Saudi’s that strict on expats, uh excuse me, is there anything in the bible against wearing the abaya? Afterall it is but a piece of clothing, right? It’s different when you compare an obligation by one’s faith, to something that does not hurt someone else’s faith.( because the action isn’t against their beleif.) It’s not like they asked them to read the Quran and go to juma’a prayer. That said, the freedom of choice, to wear, or not wear the abaya is always best. Still the comparison you came up with would be like me not being allowed to eat meat around say, Hindus in India (to my knowledge it’s ok to be a muslim vegeterian:P); and not allowing them of an obligation (this is a lousy example, but i hope you get my point).
Oh, I’ve never ever seen a non-muslim expat wear the hijab. Ever. Or even being forced to wear it. Only the abaya.
I’m so curious, why aren’t my comments showing up? I’ve copied my comment and pasted it 3 times already(lame, I know). :S WOW! Technical difficulties!?:S I don’t know what’s going on…oh,well. 1,2,3 testing testing.
This is a test.
@daifuku – bizarre…although I’ve noticed wordpress is very slow today too.
eh :S
“unless Christian Palestinians, Hindu and Seikh Indians, who all have problems with honor killings, are somehow bound by Islam? “Honour killings” as I have pointed out, happen in communities where there is no requirement for hijab, so it is clear linking hijab and honour killings doesnt fly. It is a wider societal issue with families and women”–Did anyone read this? :s Just curious. I just want whoever missed this part of a comment by Abu Sinan, to read it. ^_^
“Peter, It’s not me alone who thinks Hijab and niqab and abaya isn’t called for by the Quran, so I think you are the one who is wrong. End of discussion I think.”
Tahreef, is a serious offense. We do not like tahreef.(I can see people rambling about this in the near future)
I really don’t get why you are insisting Hijab is not called for in the Quran, when you are not muslim. Are you planning on converting anytime soon but have a problem with this part? At least france banned the hijab without tahreef in someone else’s religion.
Not all expats wear the abaya here(as demonstrated by Carol and others) and the laws are almost always bended to help them adjust. Maybe not to the extent they’d like, still there’s a lil bending( we are such monsters, aren’t we?)
“~In KSA foreign women have to wear abaya and hijab,
~in France muslim women are not allowed to, + they have to wear a big crucifix and rosary and carry a bible at all times”
Assuming that Saudi’s that strict on expats, uh excuse me, is there anything in the bible against wearing the abaya? Afterall it is but a piece of clothing, right? It’s different when you compare an obligation by one’s faith, to something that does not hurt someone else’s faith.( because the action isn’t against their beleif.) It’s not like they asked them to read the Quran and go to juma’a prayer. That said, the freedom of choice, to wear, or not wear the abaya is always best. Still the comparison you came up with would be like me not being allowed to eat meat around say, Hindus in India (to my knowledge it’s ok to be a muslim vegeterian:P); and not allowing them of an obligation. (this is a lousy example, but i hope you get my point).
Oh, I’ve never ever seen a non-muslim expat wear the hijab. Ever. Or even being forced to wear it.
last try. And please don’t pick on me for not adding anything much to the subject. I thought I had to draw emphasis on what Abu Sinan has already said, since it seems like people missed that point. ^_^
hellalujah! Yeah I know it’s bizarre. I was going to blame it on our connection. I shouldn’t itch bout it, It might stop workin on me again LOL.
@daifuku – I don’t know why but I found your comments in the spam filter!
Chiara, Just a short answer because it’s so off the topic, but virtually every first instance of religion or god-concept by humans has started with a Mother Goddess, and there have been many. all over, also in the middle east. There is a plethora of archeolological evidence.
As women are slowly degraded to secondclass, goddesses are taken out changed into males or given peripheral roles. It’ll be a post on my blog one of these days…
Abu Sinan
Does it mean that you were in Bosnia fighting with Islamic fighters? Because if that is so I would like to remind you that many people living in Bosnia resented them, very much. Not at the beginning, that’s true. They wanted weapons and they wanted their own country. But when muslims from the gulf states come, these new-comers were so full of themselves that it was just ridiculous. They treated muslim bosnian woomen like shit. (excuse my expression) I have talked with people who have been there who were neither bosnians nor serbs nor westerners and also listened first hand to relations from bosnian muslims about what was going there. Mind you it was some years after the events, but still.
And as for YEARS of killing- where did you hear about that? Perhaps we will go back in time to the Ottoman Empire when people who reverted (bosniaks) got life of privilege (majority converted in part because with the convertion they improved their economic status) and helped Ottomans to kill serbs t . Some Serbs still look at bosnians as a traitors because of that.
Wendy
I agree.
Chiara
I followed closely what had happened at that time. It seems we have somewhat different views on that matter but – I also do not want to go deeper into that, because in that case instead of talking about abaya and hijab we will end up talking about problems of pakistani muslims in Canada.
“CAIR…..added that domestic violence is not unique to the Muslim community. ”
Chiara
I agree that domestic violence is not unique to the Muslim community, however killing children who wear something parents do not like and who behave contrary to parents wishes is.
@Ella,
The Bosnians and Croats were subjected to several years of from 1992-1995, so yeah, years of killing is correct. NATO got involved because of Muslim battlefield gains. It is NOT to save the Muslims, no matter how it was presented.
It they were interested in saving Muslims they would have done it when the Muslims were loosing on the battlefield, not when they were winning.
I dont care about Gulf Arab fighters, we are talking how the West allowed the Muslims to be slaughted. Why you would want to minimise this fact or try to take the subject in a different direction is interesting.
Your statement almost looks like you are trying to justify genocide. That is pretty sick. Got any excuses for the Holocause whilst you are at it?
You might not have been there after the war, but I was and anyone who would justify what I saw is SICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As to honour killings and the like, it also happens in the Hindu and Sikh communities, so even that is hardly a Muslim thing.
As others have said here before, it is VERY rare for a Muslim female to be killed for JUST the hijab. It almost always involves more than the hijab.
@Aafke,
I find it pretty irrelevent as to whether most world religions started directed at males or females. It just doesnt really matter in this conversation. We can sit and debate all sorts of issues, but they just dont matter here.
When I grew up I knew a lot of Wiccans so I have heard all of this before, in this situation it is non sequitur.
AB-oh, thnx. But you didn’t need to post the same comment all over again LOL. It worked later. Thank you though for dig’n in there n pulin it out. I thought the reason might have been because the comment was long and had too much of Abu sinan’s comment qouted, so I tried to adjust it. I still am not sure bout the reason, maybe the Arabish? =) you’re so nice.
salam
to be honest, if it is normal in my country i may find it appealing to cover my face. personally i’m very shy when people look at my face judging its aesthetic – she’s pretty, she’s ugly. Will the niqab help quell the judgment.
i never wear one, though but it seems i could if given the choice. i wonder if i actually will be more adventurous with a niqab, coz without people judging my face i can just be free to interact. :T
Ella– I also followed the Aqsa Parvez case at the time and obviously we have different understandings of the what the media said. I have a reasonable familiarity with the Pakistani Muslim community in Canada, and have a good friend who teaches in the same public school system that Aqsa was educated in at the grade1-6 level. She confirms there is a lot of concern about domestic violence in that community, between parents, and from parents to children. Girls begin wearing the headscarf at menarche.
Still, I think if you review the case the headscarf issue led to being hit by family, whereas leaving the family home and publically shaming them in that way precipitated the “honour killing”.
Regarding Bosnia, there was a UN embargo on arms to Muslims only, leaving them to be slaughtered mercilessly. More recently Bill Clinton and Joe Biden both say that this was the genocidal situation that led Biden to convince Clinton to bomb Serbia and Clinton to agree–to prevent the ongoing genocide.
At the time, a feminist activist colleague married to a Serbian used her summer research time to go to the Balkans to prove the Serbians were not committing the atrocities reported, including systematic rape of Bosnian women. That was the purpose she told me she had just before she left.
She wasn’t able to find that, since in fact they had, so she had a Serbian psychiatrist write a report on how badly Serbian women were treated during the war, and in general how wars are extra hard on women. Here is the link if you are interested:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/documents/repyug2.htm
Aafke and Abu Sinan–the goddess/matriarchy issue was raised by Aafke as proof that only patriarchal religions and societies brutalize women, by requiring oppressive burqa type clothing, and conducting honour killings. That said, I have formally studied the cosmologies and societies of Ancient Greece and Rome, the Americas, Northern Europe, the Mediterranean, and Subsaharan Africa. All had both gods and goddesses, most often with traditional gender roles.
Recent archaelogical theories that have influenced neopaganism and wiccans, are as yet unproven, and highly criticized as starting from feminist theory and selectively and falsely interpreting artefacts as proving the theory. Critics make the same argument that although there were goddesses there were also gods who were more dominant, and there is no evidence of a matriarchy no matter how many goddesses of fertility are found. Again, the topic is only relevent if one believes, as some do, that patriarchal religions like the Abrahamic ones condone oppression of women whereas matriarchal religions wouldn’t.
I used to be really interested in the Northern European pagan religions. They had a trinity before the time of Jesus, Odin Thor and Freya. They had different names depending on where in Northern Europe you went, Wotten, Donnar, and Frieja.
It certainly was a male dominated society even thought they had major female dieties involved in their religion.
I dont think anyone would argue that northern Europe was a great place for women. Tacitus decribed the Germanic male as a large fair skinned, reddish haired man who was lazy and let the women do all of the work. The only time he did anything and got any energy was when it was time to rape, plunder and battle.
I started reading “The Story of the Quran: Its History and Place in Muslim Life” by Ingrid Mattson, and last night I came across something that reminded me of this discussion.
She writes about how the tribes in Arabia used to have some goddesses among their many idols (although they believed in Allah as the Creator) and how they themselves used to hate to hear that a daughter was born to them and often kill them, but that they claimed that Allah had “daughters” (some say like angels).
In a footnote (#15 on p. 74), she says: “Incidentally, this should give pause to those who, on the basis of minimal material evidence found in prehistoric cultures, draw the conclusion that goddess worship or the recognition of female deities is associated with an elevated social status for women. Indications from pre-Islamic Arabia show that such an association does not necessarily entail.”
nisa, Wa alaikom al-salam. I’d hate to disapoint you….It wouldn’t do much for your shyness. You’d probably feel a bit braver and it might help the shyness as you mentioned because you don’t have people staring at your face(only your eyes are left to stare at)
Good luck with overcoming your shyness.
At the end you’ll have to take it off in the company of females anyway. (unless you want akward stares in your direction) No matter what you do, people will stare, people will judge. You could be wearing black from head to toe, they’ll find something to look at, your shoes?
Abu Sinan–yes, the polytheistic ancient societies I’ve studied all had goddesses, some very powerful, but were dominated by gods, and the societies mirror the patriarchy of the god world.
Munaqabah–interesting, and thanks for the reference. Based on your last comment, I did some research, and it seems that in pre-Islamic Arabia certain tribes or places (or same thing) had a special goddess they worshipped amongst the other gods and goddesses they believed in, including Al-Lah, which didn’t change the patriarchal structure of the society. It reminded me of the patron saints of European villages, which are feted on their saints’ days. Many are female but the societal structure is unaltered.
Nisa–Daifuku is right, and either they will be looking and judging, or shy people think they will. It is true that it is easier not to be shy in some settings than others.
Try reading the following book (in bookstores, libraries, on Amazon). I know the authors (my professors) and it is highly recommended by clinicians and patients, including a psychiatrist friend who used it to treat himself for performance anxiety about public speaking:
The Shyness and Social Anxiety Workbook: Proven Techniques for Overcoming Your Fears (Paperback)
by Martin M. Antony (Author), Richard P. Swinson (Author)
Abu sinan, but time goes back before the pagan religions, anyway, Chiara made a good point, it all started with my observation that the more patriarchal a religion, the more repressive to women, and the more restrictive in dress for women.
I’d love to have a real discussion on this with you both at another time though.
Really.
You can always change my opinions if you have better arguments.
Aafke
Thank you for introducing me to the academic discipline of feminist archaeology. Although I know 3 female archaeologists (all specialized in Greece, now that I think of it), and am interdisciplinary myself, this feminist academic discipline had escaped my attention. I now have read several journal articles on it, making me more knowledgeable than before, though far from expert.
I agree with the value of a feminist contextualization to re-analyze and contribute anew to various themes and findings of archaeology. I also agree with the majority stance of avoiding replacing androcentrism with gynecentrism, including the scepticism about the validity of Dr Gimbutas’ methods and findings published in her final three books on: goddess cultures of the Neolithic period, their equivalence to a matriarchy, and the conclusion that this was gradually replaced with patriarchies subjugating goddesses to gods and women to men. Her critics are highly informed scholars themselves, most also specialized in the Neolithic period. She has, however, been a heroine to Neo-paganists and Wiccans. To each his/her own.
I am uninterested in proselytizing to either group, although I do treated their adherents who complain of psychiatric problems–not directly related to their religion. I also trained in an area with an unusually high number of dissociative identity disorders and satanic cults, although the 2 seemed mostly unrelated–the former influenced by the diagnostic practice of a particular psychiatrist, and the latter of interest to a Roman Catholic psychiatrist.
Thanks again for the inspiration to discover and start to research this field. And now I am going to send this before the same thing happens as when I composed it previously–a riled spirit sent a lightening bolt to shut down my computer before the comment could be saved, or sent into cyberspace. I’m not sure but the aforementioned bolt seemed to have come from the direction of the Netherlands. Spooky!
chiara, I’m taking this to the debate-page.
Chiara
re: bosnia embargo
On September 25, 1991 the United Nations Security Council passed UNSC Resolution 713 imposing an arms embargo on all of former Yugoslavia.
Therefore you are wrong – embargo was on Bosnia and on Serbia.
Ella–indeed UNSC Resolution 713 imposed an arms embargo on all of the former Yugoslav entities: Serbia and Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina. However, since the Serbs had the arms of the former Yugoslav army (and more from Russia), and the Croats were smuggling arms via their coastline, Bosnians were highly disproportionately affected–to the point where Clinton with the CIA supplied them via black operations, back channels and Islamist groups (mujahadeen).
The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia rendered clear judgments: Serbia and Croatia were guilty of systemic war crimes whereas Bosnia was guilty of individual ones. Serbia and Croatia were guilty of ethnic cleansing. Serbia was guilty of genocide (8000 Bosnian men massacred at Sbrenica at the end of the war) and systemic rape of Bosnian women as a tactic of war.
There was suffering on all sides but it is clear that Serbia and to a lesser extent Croatia were guilty of more and greater war crimes.
The Bosnian War initially was raised here in a comment by Abu Sinan to Wendy in their dialogue about covering required by “extremists” as leading to hate, war, and genocide. Perhaps it has now served its purpose on this thread.
Please take any discussions pertaining to Bosnia to the Debate Page as they do not pertain to the topic of this posting.
American Bedu
Sorry for this long comment, Bedu.
I’m very late in joining this discussion but wanted to point out (some parts of this comment appear on other blogs) that headcovering or face veil in orthodox Judaism is dat Yehudit (i.e., Jewish Law stemming from Jewish practice) rather than dat Moshe (Mosaic Law which is Torah-derived). Roughly it is like Quranic law Vs Sunnah. Both dat Yehudit and Sunnah relied heavily on cultural norms and customs of ancient times.
I believe that covering the head and even the face is recommended in the Quran (contrary to what many assert here) but it is more related to a cultural and societal need than religious edict.
All free women in ancient Arabia covered their faces according to dat Yehudit and Pagan cultural practices. Covering the hair/face grew out of a specific situation; women were told to cover their hair/face not to be recognized as Muslim per se but to be recognized as free women as opposed to the uncovered slave women and so not be harassed. These slave women when they were free also covered their faces (especially if they were elite and Jewish) but once they were captured they were not allowed the ‘’freedom of the luxury to appear elite and free.’’ When these ‘’covered’’ women were captured they had to uncover as slave women and become part of the booty. Imagine that shock and humiliation involved for these women to suddenly expose their faces/hair! But those times and political situations demanded that a woman in a veil remove it when captured. I have never heard anyone say that was unfair or totalitarian.
IMHO, burqa/veiling/niqaab/hijab are social choices which are confused as religious law. In highly rich and upper class families in the GCC, it is a personal choice. These very rich women wear Western clothes in the West and in their countries pull down a drop-down full-face veil on their faces when out and about because they are too good to be seen and recognised. For the Middle class burqa/veiling/niqaab/hijab is often the choice of the patriarchs. I accept that many women wear it because they think it is a religious requirement but there are also many women who are forced to wear it. Mostly the lower-middle class women wear it both for cultural and religious reasons.
Whether a woman wears it because she thinks Allah wants it (as opposed to Allah asking them to wear it for social reasons of those times), or she wears because her father/husband/brother forces her, it is not a personal choice. There is no personal choice in religion – when you believe something is compulsory and that is why you do it, you give up what you want for what God wants. I have not met any Muslim woman who believes that hijab is a socio-cultural need (and so must be worn when there is need by using logic and exercising caution) and not a religious law. Muslim women either wear it or don’t. They do not wear and remove it depending on socio-cultural situations. That I feel is where we fail.
In Muslim countries veiling works very well to make all women look identical and therefore unrecognizable and non-individual. Veiling contains a very powerful force. A woman inside a veil may feel scorned but there is still a strange protection that the veil offers – the person scorning her will never know who they are scorning; what she looks like – and that gives power to the woman.
But in the West that same veil is a cause of concern. It defeats the whole purpose of veiling because Muslim women who veil are easily recognizable. And if the Prophet was alive today, post 9/11, would he have asked Muslim women to cover their heads/faces in France or Germany or even Australia to be easily recognizable (and therefore targeted)? Would he have said, ‘cover your faces/heads so you may be known (and therefore given trouble)’? Hijab of every form was to prevent women from seeming ‘available’ (as slave women). It was to make free women stand out and not stick out as sore thumbs, which is what is happening now.
Thank you, Bedu.
@Achelois – Thank YOU for that great and informative comment. I am always so happy when you drop by and comment as each time I learn something.
“I have not met any Muslim woman who believes that hijab is a socio-cultural need (and so must be worn when there is need by using logic and exercising caution) and not a religious law. Muslim women either wear it or don’t.”
OK, this is referring to women who wear it for religious reasons… Some women consider the niqab fardh (required), and so they always wear it. Others consider it recommended, but not required, so they usually wear it but sometimes take it off in certain situations, like when traveling to the West where it’s going to cause them problems.
I also know women who don’t wear it, but put one one occasionally if they’re going to certain souqs where they feel more comfortable among a lot of men, or when they’re wearing makeup, etc.
I also disagree with what you say about higher class women vs. middle class women.
that was a long read!
and without going into a long winded argument, I’d just like to agree with Bedu that it’s pretty much up to individual women how they wish to dress and whether or not they want to wear niqab.
Niqab is most often seen as a sign of oppression, but like another commentator said – if a woman is somehow oppressed, or in an emotionally abusive relationship , taking her niqab away will not change things for her. Most often there are so many other contributing factors to someone’s suffering, the niqab is easy target.
@riyadh mom — thanks for sharing your view. It seems like whenever niqab is mentioned it always sparks a controversy of conflicting views.
@hois : http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=87.101.128.182
to all the “choice” lovers
basically those who say that “oh its a personal choice”
Basics of Islam:
Q1. What is Islam?
A1. SUBMISSION TO ALLAH.
YQ…thanks man…cause like..none of us on this blog…the Muslims and non Muslims …even had a clue that is what Islam means. Gee thanks for cluing us in…now we’ve been schooled we can get some much needed sleep as night.
I, for one, am greatful.
youre welcome….
i hope you will now stop crying about “freedom of choice in Islam”
We have a saying in the U.S… perhaps you’ll understand…If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck perhaps its a duck. If I see a muslim woman wearing a full burqa here in the U.S. I am going to assume she and her family are fanatic muslims… We have religious tolerance here and we treat our women as equals not like cattle.