The following article which I have chosen to simply paste in its entirety rather than link to me further illustrates why too many Saudi men care to take marriage vows, commitment and partnership seriously. I also feel it further illustrates how islam is being abused in Saudi Arabia. On one hand one can condemn the men for taking advantage of women and engage in such an arrangement. On the other hand one can say “Shame on YOU” to the woman who will allow herself to be placed in such a situation. Furthermore the sheiks who perform such arrangements should not come away unscathed either. How can they possibly claim this is right and legal in Islamic law?
I am saddened that a Saudi wife is quoted that since the marriage was performed in a legal sense and no children were involved or separate household established, she was able to forgive her husband for his “transgression.”
Perhaps if Saudi Arabia opened up somewhat without such restrictions that have obviously skewered the minds of individuals in Saudi Arabia there would not be these issues to deal with. Again, part of this also goes back to segregation and many men and women simply not knowing how to interact or what a “normal” relationship is. Although for the most part, it sounds like these men are primarily engaging in such unions for SEX.
Al-Zawaj Al-Urufi: A marriage of convenience
Nadeen Ibrahim | Arab News
MADINAH: With an increased number of expatriates in Madinah, Saudi men — often already married — are resorting to marrying young expatriate women through nonstate-recognized nikahs/marriages known in Arabic as Al-Zawaj Al-Urufi.
“The number of expatriates in Madinah — those who are resident, legal or illegal — has far exceeded the number of Saudis here,” said a source at Madinah Municipality, who asked his name not be published.
“Some expatriates try to earn cash by marrying their daughters or sisters to Saudis. This has resulted in a remarkable increase in the number of such marriages,” he added.
Marriage registers — known in the Kingdom as “mazuns” — are accredited by the Saudi authorities and are not allowed to carry out marriages, especially those between Saudis and non-Saudis, without legal permits. Saudis wanting to marry non-Saudis must first obtain marriage permits from the Ministry of Interior, something that can take months to years to acquire.
There are, however, unregistered expatriate sheikhs who are ready to conduct the rites of an Islamic nikah. Such marriages are legal according to Islamic Law, but not acceptable under Saudi rules.
Kamal Muhammad, an IT teacher at a boys’ school in Madinah, said such marriages cost no more than SR10,000. “I learned about them from a friend who arranged an appointment for me with an expatriate man who was looking for a husband for his daughter,” he said.
“The father showed me three of his daughters and asked me to choose one. He made a condition that the dowry should be no less than SR7,000 and that I should stay with her at the same house,” he said.
He added that after agreeing to the condition he made his choice. “The father brought a sheikh who was of his own nationality to write the contract. I paid them SR5,000 and promised to give the remainder of the money later. We then underwent a wedding party that was attended by the bride’s mother and other close relatives. I never expected things to move so fast and to be married within a few minutes for such a small amount of money,” he said.
Kamal said his father-in-law also asked him to pay SR600 each month for his wife’s upkeep. “Of course I readily agreed. Where can you find such a young and beautiful wife?” he said.
He, however, divorced his wife after five months after he came to know such marriages were common trade among some foreigners. “She won’t lose any time and will remarry the next day,” he added.
Saudi businessman Ghazi said he has unofficially married and divorced a number of expatriate women. “My Saudi wife is the principal of a school; her work is her priority. I do not want to have a normal second marriage and all the responsibilities that come with it such as setting up another home and having children,” he said. “I want a woman who spoils me and makes me happy. So I’ve married five foreign ladies in this unofficial way. These marriages are cheap and nor do I need to rent a home. I just live with them at their own homes,” he said.
Ghazi said his five wives were of different nationalities. He added that the “best” was an African woman from Chad.
Khaled, a secondary school teacher, also agrees. “The common law marriage provides us with the opportunity to change. We can tie the knot with all kinds of women, old or young, white or black, without our Saudi wives and relatives finding out,” he said.
“The foreign wives will prefer to keep silent for fear of deportation because most of them are illegally staying in the Kingdom,” he said.
Fatima, an Afghan woman, said she underwent an unofficial marriage with a Saudi man who promised to make their marriage legal afterward. “He divorced me when he learned I was pregnant. My father had to beg him to come to hospital to name my baby boy after him. He did that but has disappeared since,” she said.
Fatima said her baby boy is now two and that she loves him dearly. “I was warned several times about marrying in such a way but I wouldn’t listen. I was tempted by money and my ex-husband’s promises to make the marriage legal afterward,” she said.
“I have become an example for many unmarried Afghan women who are now totally against such marriages,” she said.
A Saudi wife, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said she discovered her husband had married three women in such a way. “I became suspicious of his behavior. So I kept a close eye on him until I saw him one day entering a house, which was occupied by foreigners. When I confronted him, he confessed that he had secretly married,” she said.
“He said he resorted to them because he did not want to commit adultery. I forgave him because his marriages were only on paper; he had no children from them and did not rent a home for them,” she added.
According to marriage registers in the Kingdom, marriages with overstayers are illegal since overstayers are not recognized by law as living in the Kingdom.
Women who undergo nikahs with Saudi men without official recognition from the state usually lose their legal rights as wives in the eyes of the law. Women who are divorced cannot claim their rights — such as alimony — as their marriages are not legally registered in the Kingdom.
In a previous Arab News article, Mohammed Saeed Tayib, a legal consultant, said there are legal channels through which marriages conducted abroad can be legalized under Saudi law. He added there is little that can be done to legalize “unofficial” marriages conducted in the Kingdom.
Filed under: culture, gender, islam, relationships, religion, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, Saudi education, Saudi Living, travel, Uncategorized, Women Issues Tagged: | culture, culture shock, customs, gender, gender issues, islam, KSA, Love, marriage, Relationship, religion, romance, Saudi, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, women
All these kinds of marriages, wether you call them misyaar or muta, are nothing but an invitation to make women even more powerless. It’s an open gateway to the abuse of women. Especially as it is done in these most oppressive societies denying women their rights.
Now they even take away the few rights a proper marriage would give them.
It’s nothing but ”legalised” protitution, with a hypocritical religious glazing to give it a false standing.
Especially in Islam, where it is easy enough for men to get rid of unwanted wives, or ”upgrade” to a younger, more modern model, you’d think there would be no need for even more denigrating forms of ”marriage”…..
“Women who undergo nikahs with Saudi men without official recognition from the state usually lose their legal rights as wives in the eyes of the law. Women who are divorced cannot claim their rights — such as alimony — as their marriages are not legally registered in the Kingdom….”
So whats the difference between an illegal marriage and a legal one when it comes to getting womens “rights”? Absolutely nothing…neither of them get them from what I understand.
The guy that had 5 wives and commented on who was the best…sounds like he test drove a few cars or something and likes the African model in the end.
And because the marriages are “illegal” under the eyes of the law…any children born are not “halal” children…but bastards as they so lovingly put it. Nice.
With the money changes going on there is only one word for this: prostitution.
When money changes hands for sex, no matter what it is labeled, it is prostitution. From the comments of the men it is clear that they realise the whole thing is a sham. Basically it is a semi-halal way to sleep around.
It is things like this that right give people the ability to point at Islam and mock Muslims when they talk about “modesty”.
What modesty is there in the Islamic world when religion is used like this to justify the most immoral and immodest acts?
People who do this bring shame to Islam and the Islamic world. Fathers who do this to their daughters are doing nothing more than pimping their own daughters. It is insanity to think any different.
“It is insanity to think any different.”
Well at the risk of my sanity, or at least my perceived sanity by others LOL
, here goes:
While it is obvious that the marriages described here are at best “of convenience” and more realistically “of exploitation”, or perhaps “mutual exploitation”, I find it more interesting to look at the factors driving them. These factors seem to be subtended by money and status–illegal or legal immigrants who need it, Saudis trying to get an inexpensive deal on a misyaar marriage. The immigrants are looking for cash and social status (papers, access into Saudi society), while the Saudis are looking for an inexpensive alternative to a full and legal marriage–in terms of cash, obligations, and protection of their 1st marriage and family status. Children are not supposed to be born into these situations, especially as they would be a confound.
Persisting in this “folly”, I also can see where a woman thinking long term and for the protection of her money (upkeep, mahr) and status (married, with children) would prefer to forgive her husband’s indiscretions. In fact, as opposed to him secretly or overtly taking a legal second wife, this does have less impact on her life (hopefully everyone is practicing safe sex and no one has an STD). Many women everywhere turn a blind eye to marital infidelity, even with the longstanding same mistress.
The key to making this at least passably acceptable to the perpetrators–wives, husbands, and sheikhs–and not technically prostitution is that these marriages are technically Islamic, and thus religiously legal, though not legal in Saudi law, and not necessarily moral (as the Grand Imam of Malaysia made the distinction).
Chiara, I can’t believe how you can muse about how women would prefer their husbands to get a semi-marriage to another woman instead of having affairs. Women would prefer their men not to stray, period!
And please… do you think a man who engages in this obtrusive kind of prostitution would have enough character to bother about safe sex?
There’s a bit more about it than is only highlighted in this one article. Misyaar is even used for convenience, sometimes called ”travel-marriage”, there are even a few instances where it actually suits both partners if they are in a mature, more westernstyle relation, each working, preferring their own house, etc.
But the overwhelming majority of misyaar marriage is sheer exploitation of women. It even provides an even more perverse and hurtful alternative for widows and divorcees, instead of being subjected to the choice of being the second wife, they can now even be be married in an even less dignified position; that of the secret misyaar wife without any claims or security.
It’s total crap. You should look into all the aspects of this exploitation of women before you speak out.
And as misyaar marriages are usually kept secret they don’t even qualify as legal in a strictly Islamic sense. As far as I remember the publication of the marriage is paramount to it’s legality.
As pointed out earlier , this is nothing but ‘prostitution’ at best. Just another case of religion being exploited perversely for ‘pleasure’. When people have their brains between their legs this is what happens!!
Aafke
I have looked into multiple aspects of misyaar and mut’a marriages in the past, and read more broadly on this specific article and the response to the question of the legality of misyaar (as raised in Malaysia and responded to in detail by the Grand Imam there in terms of religion, Saudi law, and Malaysian law) before commenting.
I was of course thus well aware of the origins of misyaar marriages as specifically “travel-marriages” for the soldiers accompanying the Prophet and how they have evolved into contemporary solutions for expat workers, and their devolution into “holiday travel marriages” which are debatably Islamically misyaar since the argument is made that they are planned to end with the holiday and therefore muta’a not misyaar ie permissible for Shi’a but not Sunnis (the majority of Saudis being Sunni of course).
Similarly, I am well aware of situations where a misyaar marriage is considered the preferred solution for all, including those with many other options open to them. Their secrecy or not, like the secrecy or not of a legal second marriage is “fudgeable”, ie they can be said to be public to the bride’s family and mutual friends while being kept secret from the first wife (or made known to her as a fait accompli), and husband’s family of origin.
The situations where misyaar marriages are clearly exploitative, including in the post article are known to me, especially as I am well aware of the difficult position of widows and divorcees in Arab/ Muslim/ Saudi cultures, based on professional and social experience having lived, worked, and/or studied in/with Arab/ Muslim/ Saudi cultures (the Saudi of course being worked with and studied not lived in).
I was not in the least “musing” about a wife’s preference for marital infidelity in any form, or misyaar marriages, or even being a 2nd wife. I based my comment on professional training and practice, research and social discussions with women who have done it. A marriage requires alot of commitment and dedication and creates complex psychological, social and legal bonds that are not easily jettisoned, nor should they necessarily be, because of an affair or a ” holiday travel-marriage”, one night stand, longstanding discreet mistress, or misyaar marriage. This is even more true when children under 18 are involved.
Finally, yes, men who have extramarital sex, or misyaar marriages of whatever degree of legitimacy, or frequent prostitutes (male or female) do have enough character or enough self preservation to practice safe sex. Most men enjoy sex and prefer to stay alive–if only to continue enjoying more sex. That is one of the reasons subSaharan African men are lining up for adult circumcision–they want the protective effects against STDs (especially AIDs) and don’t want to give up their promiscuity.
Also most men, including the “cheatin’ kind” love their wives and the mothers of their children enough to want to protect them against STDs. The rest know that an STD reveals their infidelity, and don’t want children from their infidelities, or in the case of the post article from their “other marriages”. Children are the ultimate inconvenience in these situations, after fatal disease of course.
In short, I am knowledgeable before I speak out, aware of what comments I make, acknowledge my lack of expertise or inaccuracies where relevent, and if I were to indulge in naive spewing of “total crap” or rather “complete excrement” (in deference to the quality of this blog) I would preface it with a remark to that effect.
Sorry to be so loooong, but your comment specifically addressed to me and blanketly dismissing mine and my integrity as a commentator required it.
Or perhaps we should all respond to you with the wisdom and brevity of Peter’s “@Aafke….”.
Yeah, duuhh, like Peter is an intellectual challenge…
I’m getting really tired of all these way too long comments. Perhaps you would like to google on blog-etiquette next.
I think you were being very fascetious putting up a defense of misyaar, on very dodgy principles.
You never seem to be able to deal with any criticism you immediately have to prove how you are always right and you can’t do it in a short comment.
I do not believe you really know a lot about misyaar, and what it means to women in the middle east otherwise you could not have put up such a wobbly ”defense” of it.
It’s ok, you know, you can’t know everything about everything. Even if you google it.
You might try to google on proper behaviour rules while visiting blogs, there’s several sites mentioning them, and you keep transgressing quite a few of them.
I don’t believe men can’t help cheating, they’re just weak and too lazy to improve themselves.
Or, to quote Marcy Rhoades D’Arcy: ”If men can keep faithful to the same sports team for 16 years, they can also keep faithful to the same woman”
Aafke
I am well aware and comfortable with the fact that I am not knowledgeable about everything, and readily acknowledge that in relevent comments. Indeed, I am totally ignorant of the wisdom of Marcy Rhoade D’Arcy, a character in the 80′s American sitcom “Married, with Children” (information obtained from IMDB).
Just in the interest of rigour–I never stated that men “can’t help cheating”.
Continually accusing me of being google-lite doesn’t make it true, nor do personal attacks and platitudes discredit anyone’s comments.
Unfortunately it is hard to accept blog etiquette recommendations from someone who attacks others personally, polices someone else’s blog, and trangresses her own commenting rules.
I do appreciate when you are genuinely witty, creative, and substantive, which I acknowledge in my comments; and that American Bedu holds you in high esteem, so perhaps we could just agree to disagree.
Love the quote, Aafke.
There is more to this than just cheating husbands, as most of you already know. You can give sex whatever name you like, have your own ritual/set of rules to go about it, mix feelings, & ethics if you choose. In the end it is as big of a deal as you want to make out of it (almost like everything else in life.) I do not want to sound condescending by saying I would never engage in these acts, I don’t want to say that, just because I know that there are circumstances in which people behave based on their needs, and maybe I do not fully comprehend how they could/would/ want to behave in a certain way different from mine, I still believe I should be less judgmental & think more of whether or not someone is hurting as a result. In the case of married men, I would assume someone’s hurting. I agree, Chiara that even though some men are cheaters, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are willing to let go of their wives, selfishness perhaps? (There goes not being judgmental) It is sadly true; most of those wives opt to stay. I know as a lady I can be very biased at times and say things like:”once a homar, always a homar.”I don’t always mean it. Off topic (if I stayed on topic): being your sweetest to someone makes it easy to punish them if they screw you over, you just leave. The absence of your sweetness will be punishing enough.
Chiara-I catch your drift. You might not be an expert on the topic, really, who is? You still got the big picture, needn’t care if people disagree. It’s the way it is meant to be, right?
wow a catfight !!
Aafake:
Did it ever occur to you that some to these women might opt for these kinds of marriages(misyar), for many reasons including sex. You do know that some women actually do have, and enjoy sex, not only men. She also could have a full career, don’t want to be bother with the cooking; and other house hold chores. She might also have children in which she doesn’t want them to be subjugated to a step dad. She obviously has more freedom, since a lot of what goes on the marriage is on her own term.
While it is not for everyone, I know for a fact that there are some women who want, and seek this kind of arrangement.
Daifuku–
Yes some men cheat and stay with their wives out of selfishness, some do it out of problems in the marriage which in fact they would prefer to resolve, some would like a divorce but don’t want the financial burden, some are away for long periods of time and have needs for a “second home”, some are in unhappy arranged marriages (either formally or informally arranged) etc. I know because I am trained in marital therapy and counsel the couples, the wives, the husbands, and the children from a variety of cultures and religions; also because I have friends from a number of cultures. While I always say if my husband cheated I would kill him, then her, then him again (after all he is the betrayerl) it is hard to know what one would do (short of murder) — hopefully successful marital therapy and live happily ever after.
Regarding who is knowledgeable enough to comment here–hopefully all are honest about their levels of knowledge, and respectful of others, including the diversity of perspectives on the same information otherwise it would be a boring and unhappy dialogue. Since American Bedu posts interesting debatable topics, and invites comments with open ended questions she seems to prefer dialogue to banal repetition of the status quo.
A Saudi Man–thanks for the enumeration of a number of reasons for women as well as men actually wanting such an arrangement.
Tossing around the prostitution analogy is easy, (’70s era American feminists wrote that all marriages are prostitution) but real prostitution is much less protected than these marriages.
Going on a holiday now, no time to explain how misyaar is still completely wrong and a legalised abuse of women.
Dear Saudi Man,
most Saudi misyar wives that I know, make this step because they are already divorced, so it is hard for them to become full second wives ( they face the usual question, why she got divorced?? maybe she is not good??) .
All that I met hope their marriages become full, despite their carriers!
When this doesnt come true and they have waited more than 3-4 years, they usually start to detest the man and divorce.
That is why misyars are so unsuccesfull! They hardly cover any of the women’s true needs.
Yet more thinly disguised racism against us Saudis,
Please look at the appalling divorce statistics in the U.S.A. before you judge others.
As any legal system, I think one can study Shariah Law for a entire lifetime and find contridictions. I read somewhere that there are branches of Sharia Law, which interpetations are quite different.
There is not a legal system which is loophole proof. If there is an issue in legal doctrine that appears to be unsound, then it is the resposiblity of the law makers make changes.
@Chiara,
if you think men who cheat and sleep around are smart enough to use protection I can only hope you are not seeing one of these guys.
These types of guys are NOTORIOUS for not using protection, so much so that prostitutes, both in the USA and Middle East, often charge extra if the man doesnt want to wear protection. It is very common.
It is very common not to wear protection, hence all of the issues with STDs brought home by men going abroad for sex vacations and men getting their girlfriends/misyar “wives” pregnant.
You need to seriously rethink this idea. Many a man has brought home an STD, or even AIDS to his wife and children.
@Saudi Man,
Sure, women like sex too. It doesnt change the fact that when money exchanges hands for sex, when a valid lasting marriage is not the intention, then the act is prostitution. Many prostitutes like sex, but it doesnt make their sex acts halal.
I know there are a million excuses for why some might want these arrangements. Left out of the discussion is how hard it is for older/divorced/women with children in places like Saudi to get a man to marry them for a lasting relationship.
These types of women are “damaged goods” and often resort to such exploitation because they dont have much else in the way of options because of the way Saudi/Middle Eastern culture stigmatizes such women.
Here in the West you can come up with a million reasons for prostitution, but in the end it is still prostitution.
Money changing hands for sex, whatever the reason, is prostitution and it doesnt matter if you are in Riyadh or Chicago.
@Fatima,
Divorce rates in Saudi and the US are pretty similar. The difference here is that people can and do date all of the time without people trying to call it a religiously mandated right.
In Saudi some people have twisted Islam to support what is nothing more than prostitution. At a minimum it is really nothing more than what people here do in the USA. It is really nothing more than dating, with a more overt exchange of material goods.
It has nothing to do with racism. As a Muslim I am completely ashamed by the hypocrisy of these people and the laughing stock it makes us around the world.
No one can claim to be modest and practice Musiyar, Mut’a or Urfi marriages. They are an abomination, I believe bid’a and should be banned completely.
I agree with so much of what Abu Sinan said about this subject.
It is truly disgusting.
I am appalled when I read stuff like this especially when I see it gets a thumbs-up with Islam (at least in some circles.) Speaking of that, I think the super-easy way men can divorce their wives in Islam reallllllllllllly stinks! It’s no wonder these Saudis treat these extra marriages like they do. It seems a truly-committed, let’s-work-things-out marriage is a joke to them. As American Bedu put it so well:
“these men are primarily engaging in such unions for SEX.”
Ya think?
I guess they are practicing for heaven where they’ll have those 72 virgins at their disposal for all eternity.
What has this got to do with racism, Plenty of Muslims on this blog seem to thnk this is terrible too.
Divorce rates have nothing much to do with marriage of convieniences either ..divorace is low is india doesn’t mean men don’t cheat there or all is well . Idiots /cheats exist everywhere.
I wonder how Saudi men would feel if Saudi women had the rights to do this:
Fair IS Fair…right?
Abu Sinan–thank you for your concern (meant genuinely as I hope your comment was meant) but no I am not seeing such a man. Aside from my moral religious upbringing, and an incapability of being non-monogamous, I have no reason to. And I won’t tell my husband you suggested I might. LOL
I do know men (high functioning ie educated professionals who are patients) who frequent prostitutes and use protection. The Middle Easterners I know here, experimenting with Western life styles while studying, also use protection against STDs and pregnancy. The highly educated patients I am treating for the their unhappiness with their ongoing infidelity (hetero- or homosexual) are also using protection. I emphasize educated because the men interviewed in the article were educated enough to be aware of risks despite misplaced ideas of machismo.
Unfortunately some don’t, especially in certain countries, and more so in the US than Canada (which may be part of our difference of opinion) as there is in the US less tendancy overall to use protection (eg. high teenage pregancy rate compared to other developed countries). In many countries STDs and AIDs are spread primarily by heterosexual relationships, because of culturally tolerated promiscuity and rejection of condoms, even disbelief that AIDs exists. Indeed many families in these countries are suffering greatly because of that.
Prostitution is in a different category, because there is no pretense (except as part of sex play) to any type of relationship beyond a paid sexual one.
I’m certainly not advocating for these types of alternate marriages, just saying that they are understandable in some situations, and just as some in the West prefer to live common-law, some in the East may prefer these arrangements even if they later divorce.
As I said in my first comment, the particular issue of Saudis having misyaar marriages with Saudi based (illegal) expats seems to be a case of “mutual exploitation” where of course the person with the highest social standing suffers the least.
Jacee–yes all legal systems evolve over time and have loop holes. There are 4 different schools of Sharia Law for Sunnis, and separate Shia law. Many Muslim countries use only Sharia Family Law (mudawana) and European derived law for other civil and criminal matters. Each country defines its laws in accordance with its interpretations and customs.
Susanne– Muslims also work hard to protect their marriages, as custom and religion advise, even staying too long in unsalvageable ones. I know of many cases personally (where the man wants to stay) and have treated some –including a man seeking to understand if he had the right to a misyaar marriage while his wife was incapacitated, as he himself was searching for ways out of his clinical depression along with the meds (he requested) and psychotherapy (he accepted). I told him I couldn’t speak to the religious tenets but advised against it on psychiatric grounds.
Aafke,
I think you seriously misconstrued the intent of Chiara’s posts. She was not condoning this explotation (mutual or otherwise), she was merely commenting on it per her understanding. Nor, did she say that this practice would be morally justifiable, but her statement that many women in a legally recognized marriage may prefer that their husbands seek these marriages( as opposed to those recognized), she was very much correct. The care of children, housing, etc, can cost a substantial amount of money– and for those women who seek to maintain their lifestyle, a man messin’ around in a misyaar marriage is preferable from a purely monetary perspective (and social).
Fatima,
Do not fall prey to your ego by dismissing every and any critique of your culture, simply because you refuse to consider them. And don’t resort to the worn racist retort when race/ethnicity is a non issue in this forum. If your care for other people does not extend beyond the confines of your man-drawn geographical boundaries then I pity you. Many of us however, care about people regardless of where they reside.
@Susane and AbuSinan I dare to disagree with you.
The big difference between prostitution and misyar marriages is the fact that misyar marriage is nevertheless a marriage ( not sanctioned by the state but between the partners and God)
Surely each party gets something out of this marriage, sex, money, security, status, etc. Alhamdulillah in Islam the pleasure of sex is well recognized and there is nothing wrong for an arrangement of this sort even if it were for the pleasure of one of both parties.
Is it the preferred solution, no by all means, does it give women enough security no by all means.
As Chiara and MayaNoor mentioned many women my no longer be marriable in another way but life imposes financial and other realities. This form of marriage, while not the preferred one, may still be a solution for those who need it.
As with eveything it can be abused also and be used for the wrong reasons, Allahu alim.
Forgot to mention that I discussed this issue at length with my wife and I used her comments as well in my post. We are both in agreement on this one.
I was going to comment until I clicked on Fire Brands’ link…(you naughty girl! I loved it!)
If all blog threads could be responded to with a Monty Python clip….ah, what a wonderful world it would be!
ROFL
@Chiara,
Cheating and visiting prostitutues is, by it’s very nature, a very irresponsible act. So you can go ahead and believe these guys when they tell you that they are willing to ruin their whole lives by cheating and visiting prostitutes but they still wear protection, but I hope the ladies involved out there dont buy it. It just isnt true.
@Peter,
The point is that many, if not most Muslims do NOT believe that these are valid marriages under Islam.
The act is bid’a, it is an innovation and hence haram. I find it crazy how people will bend and twist religion to try and suit their own needs and justify their own immoral acts.
I also cannot believe you said “women may no longer be marriable”. The reason they cannot get married is NOT do to any issue with the women, it is because the MEN refuse to marry women who have been divorced or have children. Of course this goes DIRECTLY against the example of the prophet. It is a defective of the culture, and an act which is whole unIslamic.
It is so sad that religion is used to try and justify immoral acts, but NEVER evoked when someone could actually travel in the path of the prophet and marry a divorced or a widowed woman.
These types are hypcrites who use the religion to statisfy their own base, immoral needs.
Insha’Allah, they are held to count for EVERY time they use the religion to support their sad lifestyles.
Sabiwabi– “Every Sperm is Sacred” comes to mind now that you mention Monty Python. I highly recommend youtubing that.
Because I feel I cannot really contribute to this particular debate, due to my lack of understanding what mut’a, nikah, and misyaar marriages are I feel I will sit back and learn by reading everyone else’s responses.
However I do have another popculture video that turns the prostitute paradigm on it’s ear–and I dedicate this one to you Chiara as I know you will laugh till you cry!
@ The Fire Brand: Thanks, but I can youtube that one in my very own head, have it completely memorized already! LOL! The hubby and I watch “The Meaning of Life” religiously at least once a year.
HAHAHAhA Niiiiiiiice!
“Do you have any other skills….like typing?!”
ROFL!
“You can so “NO” to being a man-ho!”
LMAO!
Oh lordy, my day is now complete! Thanks Fire Brand!
I’ve been enjoying all the comments on this topic. What prompted me to reply at this juncture was on reading that ‘not all women are marriable or remarriable.’ That is so sad because it is the stigma of the men and the culture in which they live that makes them viewed as unmarrieable. Much seems to go back to how one literally has to be “of the same blood” in order to have any respect or care. And I’ll explain further…. a woman with children may get divorced. It may be difficult if not impossible for her to marry because either she could lose her children or it is also difficult in Saudi for a man to accept another man’s children (even if also children of the woman he professes to love). Same thing with a widower. She is viewed as ‘used goods’ and whether children or not has less chance of remarrying as a ‘first wife’ and will likely be considered as a 2nd, 3rd or 4th wife…..or one of the other “options” (said very loosely) of marriage.
Mayanoor–thank your for your very clear understanding of my comments, and excellent summary.
Peter–agreed!
Abu Sinan–my patients lie to me about many things but eventually tell more of the truth. While they have various rationalizations for their behaviour, none wants to die, and none wants a child by a lady of the night. My friends, patients, and students, male and female, ask for contraceptive and preventive advice including the religiously acceptable practice in their faith. I also toss in how not to get accused of statutory rape advice for Middle Easterners (given the cultural differences in accepted age disparities, and the myth of the pansexual North American female; and, the challenges of dating for them and South Asians looking to make a “love match” rather than having an arranged marriage.
No lady should trust protection to anyone other than herself, ensuring she is protected against pregancy if she wants to be, and against sexually transmitted diseases, eg. “no condom, no sex”, STD/AIDs testing prior to commencing a sexual relationship, STD/ AIDS testing as soon as she learns of a husband or lover’s infidelity, and stay sober enough to make wise choices. Or as my father used to say “Don’t let any guy get you drunk; don’t believe any man who says he’s been fixed; and NO sex before marriage [as in marriage or death whichever comes first]“, or the all purpose “Don’t sc**w around”.
The Firebrand–
, wiping away tears. Also reviewed the “Theology of Monty Python – Every Sperm is Sacred”– such an astute summary of RC vs Protestantism, and British mores!
In gratitude, I recommend American short story writer John Barth’s “Night Sea Journey” from the “Lost in the Funhouse” collection, and of course Jonathan Swift’s “A Modest Proposal”.
The Pope of course should be spending RC tithes on condoms distributed throughout Africa and propaganda about the delight, or at least safety of using them (correctly), but he never listens to a thing I tell him!
@Carol,
That is spot on! Thanks! This cultural practice in Saudi, and the wider Middle East, is an extreme divergence from Islam and the example that Mohammad gave.
It must be pointed out that no such “used” or “damaged goods” tag is stuck to a man who was married, even multiple times, or has kids.
Often such women are expected to live alone or to marry men who, on many fronts, might not be fit for them.
Get rid of this cultural abomination and you’ll find that FAR less Saudi women would be willing to sell themselves into Urfi/Muta/Misyr marriages.
I think it is kind of a vicious circle, that like anything else in the Middle East, only benefits men.
Label and stigmatise widowed and divorced women, which then allows you an excuse to only settle for “clean” women, at the same time they can then use the “damaged women” as their back door girls because they cannot get anything better.
Shame!
American Bedu–
Cultural attitudes about marriageability or remarriageability will hopefully change, but as you know, and better than I about Saudi, such change is slow and not necessarily steady. In the meantime woman are faced with more limited “choices”.
One older (mid 60′s) ill (but very nice and kind) Moroccan extended family member remarried as a widower to a younger woman (30′s) who had been divorced by her 1st husband because she was unable to bear children. Women who suffer from infertility represent a whole category of “unmarriageable”, divorced, and difficultly “remarriageable”. This is the primary reason Iran developed sophisticated infertility programs, while still needing to address 3rd world problems like tuberculosis.
@Chiara,
It is nice to know that all of the men you deal with think with their head and think rationally when it comes to sex and women.
It is just too bad 95% of the rest of the men in this world do not think the same way.
I hate to say it, but having been all around the world and knowing men from every walk of life, every country and every social stratus, what you talk about just doesnt jive. Sorry.
If men were so careful and never had sex without condoms AIDS wouldnt be ravaging the world the way it is.
The FACT is that a sizable portion of men who cheat and visit prostitutes, probably a majority, do NOT use condoms. Full stop!
As to the women, the men in these relationships are also the type that would put massive pressure on their wives, girlfriends, what have you, to NOT use condemns.
That is exactly why things are the way they are.
I have seen and heard this stuff first hand. It might not fit into the nice little bubble you have drawn for us, but it is reality.
It is exactly why so many men and their wives are dying in India from visiting prostitutes. They refuse to have safe sex and often bully their wives into doing the same.
It is human nature and a large part of the problem.
@Chiara,
Your example points out what is wrong with the culture. Most women in their 30′s would not willing marry a 60 something man, not if they have a choice.
These women are often forced to marry men they’d never consider if they had a choice. The choice they are given is marry a man like this 60 year old, or live alone, often forcing not too happy brothers or uncles to support you.
@Abu Sinan — And I never even touched upon the so-called “clean” or “new” women who in fact have had hymen reparation surgery!
Granted….the majority of brides in Saudi Arabia are indeed virgins yet one day when I was just browsing and reading various articles on Saudi Arabia I came across one which discussed the growing trend of hymen reparation where many Saudi women would go to Beirut or places in Europe for the procedure in order to not be “caught out” when it came time for marriage.
Abu Sinan–first comment
I’ve travelled extensively but never to subSaharan Africa, nor South Asia, and particularly not to truck stops on transit routes in those areas. The people I am referring to obviously do not have a prostitute at every truck stop in their home country–but then neither do the ones referenced in the post article, nor in the examples given by others. While I try to stay out of male locker rooms (occasionally obliged in the course of lifeguarding, all chaste of course) , and male locker room conversations (occasionally a required part of medical training to at least pretend to be listening), and don’t drink, so I’m rarely in bars, I don’t think I’m quite so naive as you imply.
The facts based on peer-reviewed research indicate that an increasing number of men and prostitutes use condoms, including in Cameroon (45-60%), South Africa (up from 20% to 80-90%) and China, and this percentage increases with the provision of condoms, education, and peer counselling by prostitutes trained specially for it.
Of course the devasting pattern of AIDs transmission and lack of treatment in those countries is a tragedy that should be remedied. On that front, Muslim MENA countries score remarkably better, even allowing for underreporting by governments and individuals.
Abu Sinan–second comment–
My point exactl!.
She was happy to accept this situation (and living with the disgruntled daughter-in- law, still grieving son, and their children) rather than remain a divorcee because it offered for her a better choice among poor options.
My further point was that infertility is a cause that had not yet been discussed here of marriageability or remarriageability.
Since you reminded me (thanks), being peri- or post-menopausal is a (natural) form of infertility which probably contributes to the unwillingness to marry widows or divorcees 35-40ish and up, or as one man told me, he wants to have numerous children safely spaced so preferred a younger bride.
Let’s not forget that it is not only in the middle-east that divorced women with children (or sterile women) find it hard to find a new partner for marriage. In europe many of these women live with men without being married. They live in sin and they have very little going for themselves (dowry no, mariage contract no, etc>)
Talking about hymen reparation, I suppose you know that this is mostly psychological as many women do not have a hymen that would rupture during the first night. We can spend a complete new topic on the tricks women need to play (capsule with blood, etc.) to ensure they confirm their virginity. Off-topic and hard for a man to publically discuss ( I am a physician..)
Hymen repair surgery is a long standing practice, and easily available in Morocco (advertised on the websites of high end plastic surgery clinics, and part of gynecology practice). It is also common in other MENA countries. An Egyptian obgyn has an interesting website on the topic addressing his colleagues on “how to” while denying doing it as it is illegal in Egypt.
In Canada this is a newer surgery catering to certain immigrant populations.
All of which makes me wonder whether a man would prefer to marry an honest non-virgin, or a dishonest “virgin”, if a true virgin were not an option.
From a woman’s perspective this can be life saving (social integration, family is not shamed and does not kill, no need for suicide as an alternative), though not necessarily soul-saving.
“to ensure they confirm their virginity”…sad state of affairs when virginity has to be confirmed…with tricks or whatever. Very sad.
Peter–agreed! re: hymen repair, and the horrendous problem of the woman whose hymen is intact but doesn’t rupture in the usual way, is brought in to the physician who is required to provide certification of virginity, and is unable to properly visualize a hymen (this is notoriously difficult to do reliably), and finds herself disgraced and divorced. Or the one whose future inlaws require a certification of virginity prior to marriage and has no hymen from birth, ruptured from non sexual activities, or an unusually shape and difficult to visualize one.
Re: Western divorcees and sterile women, they do have going for them better work opportunities, social services, and more men who are less likely to require biological children as a condition of marriage.
Coolred–very sad and very prevalent!
It’s sad that virginity is an issue at all–especially since it’s never a pre-requisite for men be eligible to marry.
Yuck!! That’s just nasty ~ women going from man to man like prostitutes!
@ Coffee Catholic– whether its “nasty” or not is subjective and a matter of one’s preference. My sexual preference and ultimate plan is to own several male concubines that would pleasure me at my request whenever I am so inclined. I don’t think this is nasty in the least sense because all seven (“The Coitus Quorum”) of them will only be obligated to me. If they stray and try to bed another woman–I will kill them–and to ensure compliance I will house them in my basement/gym so all they have is each others company (save when with me) and the ability to keep their bodies looking hot and rock solid (I don’t do fat guys). Every now and again I’ll release them for shopping trips, spa-days, mani-pedi’s to reward them for their services.
…That is until they get to old, or I get bored, and I go find a new, younger, faster, pure-bred…
coffee catholic-I think you mostly utilize it as a tool to get what they want, not neccessarily hopin from one man to another.
Susanne-There are so many disgusting things, things we might not like, things we disaprove of, it does not neccessarily mean these things are wrong(depending on what way you want to define wrong).
Ok, didn’t read all the comments. There has been so much goin on it apears. Thnx Fire Brand for lightening up the mood with Flight of the Concords*singing leave the monkeys in head*
Chiara-My Qs were rehtorical, still thanks for clearing things up.
Trust me, I have nothing but respect for you. From your comments, you seem like a person that will listen to others & understand them before anything.
You give them manis and pedis
LOL
Lucky guys!
I am a generous Over-Lordress.
FYI, the Coitus Quorum have no special skills…. Like typing.
@ Peter – your comments are too much.
The whole point is that many people do NOT think that misyar marriages are honorable in the eyes of God.
Yes, it is harder to remarry than to marry for the first time in any culture. However, women in other countries can support themselves and be part of society without a man.
Also, most divorced women I know dread the idea of getting married again – they are enjoying too much freedom! The men, on the other hand, are the ones desperate to get remarried! In Saudi, where women are not allowed to be quite as self-suffient, that might change the equation.
Chiara
It is sad that men from certain areas want to confirm virginity of their partner and that it is so important for them to do so. And that make short shrift of arguments that misyar/muta’a marriages are usually not a bad things. If the girl going into misyar marriage is a virgin, upon divorce she will have less opportunities to marry. She will still be young but unfortunately she won’t be a virgin. Unfortunately, like you wrote, majority of muslim men want virgin as his primary wife.
What’s more the article did not wrote about saudi women but about non-saudi girls marrying the Saudis. Usually they do not marry because they want to marry but because they family wants them to marry Saudi aiming at getting money from misyar marriage to allow better living for the whole family. They care nothing about the girl-daughter (they probably have many daughters) and the girl being illegal expat in Saudi have no choice but to go through misyar marriage.
Similar situation is in Iran, there muta’a marriages are for sex, for being able to work (she can work closely with the guy without any problem, sex does not go into it) or for some stability in later life (marrying as a widow/divorcee because of difficult financial situation or because …..of allowed islamically sex)
Unfortunatly the sex prevails and the majority of misyar/muta’a marriages can be called nothing else but prostitution and exploitation of women.
Ella–Thank you for your comment to me.
I think if you read my comments carefully it will be clear that I was not saying misyaar or muta’a marriages are desirable. only understandable. I did make the distinction between misyaar or muta’a marriages and those addressed in the article, which specifically focuses on expats (legal and illegal) from disadvantage backgrouds, living in Madinah, and the commerce of their marriages, or multiple sequential marriages. I also addressed the issue of exploitation not only for sex, but for legal papers, or work connections (social integration) etc. I have no doubt that in some or many cases the family’s are looking for financial gain rather than putting the daughter’s wellbeing first.
I am reluctant to so readily call these marriages prostitution, as prostitution has other aspects which make it distinct from them, however inferior they are to full legal marriages. For one, there is absolutely no pretense in prostitution that the relationship is anything other than a paid sex service, usually paid per act. High end prostitution may involve kept women–ie kept in apartments at the expense and pleasure of the client for lengthier periods of time, but is not the majority of situations. Most prostitutes are on the streets, caught between the law (it is illegal in most places), the client, and their pimp. They are at high risk of physical abuse and rape.
The metaphor of prostitution has been extended to all marriages, especially traditional ones, where the wives don’t work outside the home, making them (according to this metaphor) kept women, who provide conjugal sex for their financial upkeep, social status, and security. American feminists of the 1970′s were particularly adamant that marriage was prostitution. Some feminist currents of thought still are. I think such analogies are a diminution of the plight of prostitutes and a denigration of marriage, as well as being inaccurate.
Thank you for the additional information your comment provided, and for the opportunity to further clarify mine. I think we are probably more in agreement than it seems, except with the use of the term “prostitution”. Exploitation, definitely!
Tanya–rates of remarriage are about 56% for men and 42% for women. That is not counting common-law marriages which make up the majority of the rest, ie, a committed live-in relationship without the exact same legal status as full marriage, and without the religious blessing. So in effect, the majority of men and women remarry whether officially or by common-law.
Daifuku–thanks for your kind comment and your stimulating rhetorical questions.
@Carol,
Many women indeed have a hymen, yet are as dirty as can be. It is a well known thing in Saudi, and the wider Islamic world, to have an “unconventional” manner of sex that doesnt involve what most people would consider the normal body parts. Is that diplomatic enough?
Many of these people engaging in this act consider themselves still to be virgins, although like the man who has sex with another man and considers himself not to be gay if he acts in the male role, this can be debated.
This all ties back into one of my major problems with the Middle East and the wider Islamic world, the idea that substance doesnt matter, it is appearance that matters.
Abu Sinan,,,,very well said….really you are on the spot.
It is so hypocritical…..
@Peter…..
What do you mean that divorced women live in ‘sin’ in Europe?
First of all, it is not hard for them to remarry at all if they want! Two of my neighbours in their 30′s in Europe, got married to single mothers and it was their choice and they are so happy about it..
Second, the ones that choose to cohabitate without a marriage contract dont live in sin! All the society knows, in constrast to misyar that is secret!!!
and in addition cohabitation gives the man and woman rights in Europe- it is protected by law!!
It is not sinfull and illegal…like in the Middle East.
In the Middle East you are basically covered by a marriage contract, i.e. the only route to get rights and have your relationship socially accepted. That is NOT the only route in other cultures and societies.
May I add that misyar is NOT socially acceptable, thus this is the reason it is in 98% of the cases – if not all-kept SECRET.
Thus I would suggest you need to get some facts right, before you comment.
Abu Sinan–
I would assume you are speaking about anal sex. Others practice fellatio and cunnilingus, and sexual contact with the genital area (perineum, clitoris, introitus of the vagina) without penetration so the hymen remains intact. These too are virgins if an intact hymen is the mark of virginity. It is also possible to become pregnant if ejaculation occurs at the introitus and the “little swimmers” are particularly skilled and determined.
Those I have talked to are well aware of the hypocrisy but the risks of losing one’s virginity (for a female) and of deflowering a virgin (for socially appropriate males) are too high to act otherwise.
This is not unique to the Middle East, but prevalent in traditional areas of the Mediterranean (eg Greece), Latin America and Asia.
@Abu Sinan – very diplomatically put! And yes, I have heard of this “tactic.” I’m staying away from posting on that particular topic but it also comes with its own set of problems and health issues!
@Chiara — let’s stay away from such details please! There is no need to go so deep, okay.
American Bedu–no problem. I thought the medical language was sufficiently diplomatic but respect your judgment on this.
The other main points were that one may be aware of hypocrisy but choose certain options, and that it is not unique to Middle Eastern culture. Very diplomatic I think!
Chiara, so that means just what I said – 58 percent of women not to remarry and in my experience, those 58 percent are happy as clams!
Tanya–only if you count legal marriages. The majority of women recommit in a marital type relationship, if you add the “justice of the peace” ones, and the common-law ones. In some jurisdictions the legal rights and obligations are about the same. That said, of course there are some who are happy as clams as single women with no committed romantic relationship. I should also say those were US statistics. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.
My philosophy is that one should be happy whatever marital state one is in, or if unhappy take the necessary steps to change it. I don’t think one lifestyle (single, married, common-law) is inherently better than the other but certain societies make it almost impossible to make a happy choice other than married (or married in legal terms at least).
As you said, single men seem to be unhappier than single women, and widowers at greater risk of early death after the spouse’s death than widows. They can’t live with us and they can’t live without us. LOL
Interesting how an unmarried woman “living in sin” is thought worse of then a married man who treats marriage like an excuse to collect women…or marries and divorces with regularity that is selfish and disgusting…but the unmarried woman is trash!!
Abu Sinan, my mother is 62 years old, Muslim, lives in Chicago. Would you like to marry her? She’s been divourced for 20 years and has not remarried. The prophet married older duvouced women as you noted. Care to follow his sunnah?
@Umm Adam,
Thanks for the offer, but as the religion says, if you cannot treat all of your wives equally you cannot have more than one wife.
I love my wife more than I could ever love another woman on this planet, hence me taking another wife would be haram.
If you’d like me to put your mother’s profile up on a marriage site, feel free to ask! Or, I am sure since you hang around everyone in Saudi who is “upon the Sunnah” you’ll be able to find her another spouse quickly.
Good luck!
coolred38
I am not sure but I think that unmarried woman in Muslim society** is treated as a trash because she does not have children which is a “thing no ho” in Islam. I think that is also connected with the whole baggage of Bedouin or tribal culture.
Do you think I may be right?
**I wrote “muslim society” because in the west unmarried woman nowadays rarely is treated as trash and in China or Japan situation of unmarried woman is getting more similar to Western society than Muslim society, I think..
ups.
pls read “a bad thing” i/o “thing no ho”
Umbrella ella ella ay ay…Ok, I’ll cut it out.
“I wrote “muslim society” because in the west unmarried woman nowadays rarely is treated as trash”
Ella-Why? Aren’t there western muslims? Or did you want to say Middle Easterns? In which case I won’t call you racist, simply because-other than the obvious-I never regarded Arabs as one race. I’m an Arab, & I am definetely sure that i had African, and Asian ancestors(most likely from Bukharistan). I wanted to confirm this by getting that kit from the human genome project but, heck! I ain’t payin for anyone to tell me what I already know:P What exactly is race anyway? Whether you believe in creationism, evolution-or both-it is very clear that we use race very loosely these days. Am I trying to say that humans live on discrimination, and are more tribal than they believe they are? I do not know. Possibly.
daifuku
And many muslims in Western Europe and North America treat women as trash, particularly the one who came originally from ME or Pakistan. Unfortunately.
I also do not see where “race” come into it. Did I mention “race” or did I mention “society” and “tribal culture”?
So is there a difference b/w Al-Zawaj Al-Urufi & Misyar? Why would a man go through a misyar marriage but not Al-Zawaj Al-Urufi?
ella-evidentally you have no clue what you have done by saying what you’ve said, & again highlighting it in your second comment. That will explain where “tribal” & “race” falls into it. Didn’t get it yet? Race being what we make out of it, you’ve made it sound that the people from these countries you mentioned are one race in treating women like trash(as you believe) and you belong to another race, one that doesn’t treat women like trash (again, as you believe). By saying what you have said, you are only trying to put yourself in a group and ward others off as witnessed by:
“because in the west unmarried woman nowadays rarely is treated as trash”
“I think that is also connected with the whole baggage of Bedouin or tribal culture”
“many muslims in Western Europe and North America treat women as trash”
All those statements suggest you are being more tribal than you think. Now you know why i mentioned the three words you didn’t “know” Why I mentioned.
I can also tell if you have ever gone to the ME, you have gone only once as a tourist and have probably had a bad experience, or just had a bad experience with the “Muslim”,”Middle Eastern”, “Pakistani” men that you met. I love it when people: “do not see where “race” come into it. Did I mention “race” or did I mention “society” and “tribal culture”?” Especially when they’ve asked an earlier question:”I think that is also connected with the whole baggage of Bedouin or tribal culture.
Do you think I may be right?” Or were you trying to say:”I am right.” in that cae I am severely mistaken. Um..I promised I will cut it out. ^_^
you have probably gone*
I just qouted you for the most part, by the way. That clarifys where most things came from:D
Daifuku
Don’t you think that unmarried woman living “in sin” is treated by majority of ME men living in ME as trash?
.
Don’t you think that unmarried woman living “in sin” is treated by majority of ME/Pakistani men living in the west as trash?
Don’t you think that unmarried woman living “in sin” is treated by majority of Western, non-ME, non-Pakistani men as trash?
If the answer to the first two questions is YES then what is the reason? Tribal culture, society, something else?
If the reason is one of the two above the race does not come into it, what comes into it is culture and upbringing.
*****
Now many people, including ones from Saudi Arabia. seems to assume that people in the West have some common pattern of behaviour which is result of “western culture”. In same wAy it is true. Similarly one can say about some commonality of Chinese and Japanese behaviour resulted from their common history and culture. Why then you disagree when I am pointing out that there is common pattern of behaviour to people living in the ME and south-east Asia resulting from your common culture? Some of it is good, some is not.
Now to answer your questions.
No, I have not been as a tourist to Saudi Arabia or to any of Gulf States.
No I haven’t had any “bad experience” with Pakistani or ME men or Muslims overall .
No, I do not think you clarified your point, I think you missed my point.
****
and yes, when I wrote my first post I was not sure if am I right or not. Now I think I am – right of course
“and yes, when I wrote my first post I was not sure if am I right or not. Now I think I am – right of course.”
I would go further to clarify exactly how you missed my point. From the comment above, and since you think you are right now, i don’t see any use of me clarifying anthing to you, since you seem to have it all figured out. BTW, I am not bedouin, so if you think I’ve helped you prove that it stems from beduoin culture, you are brutally wrong.
“Why then you disagree when I am pointing out that there is common pattern of behaviour to people living in the ME and south-east Asia resulting from your common culture”-wooh wooh, where did i disagree?! Don’t go putting words in my mouth. The heck we do have common cultures. We are Intermixed with these cultures and many cultures if you don’t know.
“Now to answer your questions.
No, I have not been as a tourist to Saudi Arabia or to any of Gulf States.
No I haven’t had any “bad experience” with Pakistani or ME men or Muslims overall .
No, I do not think you clarified your point, I think you missed my point”
Exactly my point, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Since, everyone all the sudden seems to be concerned with sources and what not, as if it were a college paper. Funny no one humoured us on your post.
To answer your questions, look up misyar, muta’ah and think through why the heck anyone would be living in sin. In some cases, it’s as idiotic as being found for illegal possession of marijuana in California. You might be living in a world of books, you are too caught up in it you don’t see how in reality things work out. There are some ME men, Western men, & men of all nationalities, cultures, race, & whatever other word you choose, who treat women like crap for a broad range of reasons. After all of that I am almost sure you will be posting “I’m Right” in your next comment. I hope you don’t fail to see this is not a kindergarten competition, & that your “rightness” interferes with peoples’ lives and how well they can mingle with others without having to go through the same cycle of questions. People get pissed off of having to fill out forms when they go to the hospital, or other places where that is needed, imagine having to fill out a form on a daily basis….Anyway, if it’s all you need from me: “you are Right!”
Middle Eastern men love Haifa Wahbi
Just a silly random comment
“I am not sure but I think that unmarried woman in Muslim society** is treated as a trash because she does not have children which is a “thing no ho” in Islam. I think that is also connected with the whole baggage of Bedouin or tribal culture.”
Well, the whole assumption is wrong to begin with – where do you get this stuff from? I know women who have never married, and no one considers them trash.
Or did you mean unmarried women “living in sin”? In any case, whatever the attitude of Middle Eastern men towards them, it’s probably the same as the attitude of Middle Eastern women (and the women may be even more conservative), so don’t make it a “men” thing.
Much to the surprise of some Western women feminists, women in the Muslim world transmit the culture, and are often more conservative than the men. They also see their own feminism as evolving within Islam.
Not having children is a huge issue, but more for pre-menopausla women who are married but do not (yet) have biological children than for singles, in my experience. The pressure on single women “of a certain age” is to get married.
Pigs!
what happens if you are in a marriage like this and it is not registered in the kingdom and you have 2 kids from it and 2 kids from a former marriage and the saudi guy leaves for good anyway how do you leave the country with 4 kids especially when he does not care anyway? especially without the governebt knowing about it if you are there illegally
@Simone – In the scenario you described the expatriate should approach her embassy for guidance.
American Bedu