When you watch the video of a young Saudi woman (girl?) skating while clad from head to toe in black, do you see her as oppressed or do you see instead of how one young woman demonstrates she can enjoy such pleasures in spite of being clad from head to toe?
When I see all the other young skaters around her, I think, why couldn’t she instead be wearing long slacks, a long sleeve shirt and a hijab (even with a niqab if preferred) which would also keep her covered modestly from head to toe? And then there is not the same worry of her long flowing abaya being caught under the blade of her skate. It would also make it so much easier for her to enjoy herself as well as make it easier for her to try some twists and turns if she so desired. And at one point in the video, doesn’t it seem like the young male youths are more interested and watchful of her because she has dared to go out on the rink and skate while wearing her abaya?
Ice skating rinks, such as the one in the video, are not uncommon within shopping malls in Saudi Arabia. However it is less common to see an abaya clad woman on skates in the rink. Most of the woman one will typically observe skating are usually small girls who have certainly not entered puberty yet and therefore skate freely in their comfortable clothes, sans abaya.
What one is unlikely to see at a skating rink within a shopping mall in Saudi Arabia is a mother skating along with her young child, holding his or her hand as they take those first faltering steps on the ice. One is also unlikely to see a young couple skating alongside let alone skating hand in hand as one sees in most other places.
It saddens me that many Saudi females, whether a woman or a young girl, may never get the chance to experience the fear followed by that thrill of accomplishment with learning to balance and actually skate around a rink on those two thin blades. It saddens me that there are few opportunities for the Saudi female to express herself (at least in public venues) with enjoyable activities like ice skating, roller skating, in-line skating, skate-boarding and the list goes on.
So while I’m saddened to see the young woman skating while clad in her abaya at the same time I am also happy to see her determination and mastery of skating at the public rink while clad from head to toe.
Filed under: abbya, culture, Dress, Entertainment, gender, Hobbies, Just for fun, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, Saudi Living, Sports, travel, Women Issues Tagged: | abaya, culture, customs, gender, gender issues, KSA, Saudi, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, women
I don’t see how one can enjoy skating in such an outfit. I can imagine snagging the skates on the abaya. It is really a bit unsafe.
Modesty is a fine thing and there are ways to be modest and practical. Wearing an abaya with skates is wrong unless you confine yourself to very basic moves. (I’ve seen some Victorian women’s skating outfits and they are barely any better.)
I did see one other person that looks to be a covered person (female I assume). I note that the skaters look young. I guess Saudi clothing rules make skating a childs amusement.
Who cares if she’s wearing an abaya while skating, she seems to enjoying herself. I don’t think she wants or needs your sympathy.
her being Saudi is beyond the point so, I won’t get into that. You know I’m not trying to be mean when I say: What’s next? Saudi woman peeing? Get over yourselves people.
“Who cares if she’s wearing an abaya while skating, she seems to enjoying herself. I don’t think she wants or needs your sympathy.”
Ditto. she’s probably having fun, and we are here discussing it. If anyone’s to be sad for anyone, it should be her pittying us.
I remember sometime ago Manal and I driving past a woman on a bicycle near Mason University. She was dressed from head to toe in abaya and niqab.
I think it is sad that many women in Saudi and the Middle East will missing out on a whole host of things all banned to them to protect the fragile male psyche of their men.
@daifuku–I think the point is, has been, and continues to be–is she skating in an abaya because she chooses to skate in an abaya or because she has no choice. I am in Saudi now–wouldn’t I have to skate in an abaya as well? I thought abayas were no big deal until I had to wear one and I am an active, sporty person outdoor person and abayas are not compatible with my lifestyle–but I have no choice here and that sucks.
Rince & Repeat: “I just don’t understand why the religious have such fascinations with head gear.”
Jerry M: Your observation looks dead on the money all the other skaters are quite young, so its likely skating is less geared towards adults.
However I must give props where it’s due–she might be wearing a batsuit but she’s working it all the same–having a great time, and I give her two thumbs up!
lot of the you tube commentators on that video say that its a video shot in Malaysia. and looking at peoples faces, it leads me to believe that this is not shot in Saudi.
it pisses me off time and again when I see boys riding bikes and running in the street….playing football or basketball at the parks and just generally having FUN outside…while the girls are walking along…sitting…and if I were them..FUCKING PINING for the chance to run and laugh and break a sweat from exerting my body in some way…thats what those muscles are for…not to turn to fat and become useless.
SO YES…feel sorry for them…cause every little thing they do manage to do we shouldnt clap our hands in the same manner as our two year old learning some new ability…we should clap our hands and salute her for being brave enough to ignore the stares and probably the comments thrown her way for daring to display her desire for fun…in public…while wearing the “obligatory” shroud. But thats just my opinion.
And it doesnt matter if its in Saudi or any othe country…once a woman has all that gear on…she might as well be considered Saudi.
She seems to be doing fine and enjoying herself. Who knows? Maybe if she decided to start spinning and twirling she’d change to a different kind of outfit? I’ve done a lot of skating at rinks and it’s the rare person that’s spinning and twirling. Most are just going round and round the rink and having fun of it. I don’t think it’s sad. Not long ago Western women skated in long skirts! And enjoyed it very much.
coolred38, I remember having plenty of fun (and sweating my head off) while “shrouded” much more then Abaya Skater there during winter! Try Alaska in the dead of winter ~ talk about wearing “gear” while having fun “in public.”
I think you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill. I’m sure that if a girl can’t ride a bike like the boys she can go find something else that’s fun to do. If the girl sits around on the sidelines pouting then that’s her problem.
Kudos to all the people skating, and in a place where it’s warm enough to do it in a t-shirt. As someone who learned to skate outdoors, wearing enough clothing to pass for a child of the Michelin man, I envy such an option.
There is something mildly perverse about filming this woman (presumably without her consent) and posting it on youtube. Hopefully it will be taken as encouragement to others who choose (in Malaysia it is a choice) to wear such traditional clothing to keep active and enjoy the sports available there.
Somewhere in the blogosphere a blogger posted a picture of her friend (with the friend’s permission) roller blading in Saudi with the abaya on. Again, better than no exercise.
@Bedu, it saddens me to see the quality of your posts degrade. Why this focus on perceived negative aspects of hijab? What’s next? My wife is in hijab and if things are somewhat inconvenient she thinks of the rewards in Jennah inshaAllah.Carol is focussing on the inconveniences she perceives for women in hijab, while she should focus on how she herself will be judged in the Hereafter.
The skating girl to me radiates force and conviction and I am happy and proud for her. It is this force and conviction that seems to bother non-believers. Why are western values not different but superior…? Muslim’s rarely criticize all the skaters NOT in hijab but westerns freqently criticize hijabi’s when out and about doing their thing (hiking in the mountains, jetski, etc.)
Abu Sinan-Why do you always say that about Middle Eastern men?:S
Sirius-the only reason I said that is because I was certain it wasn’t in Saudi. So, most likey she had done it by choice. Unless, her parents forced her. Still: haven’t your parents ever forced you to do something you didn’t want/like? I’m not saying it’s okay. don’t get me wrong. I just think people are making too big of a deal.
When I was a kid I used to feel bad for the “disabled” people I saw-I’m using this word very loosely. as you can tell I have a problem with it-it took me a while to realize what’s sad is people pittying people for being different. You know “disabled” people are human they can be mean too(YES!OMG!) Infact, I was bullied by a deaf boy but I felt too sorry for him to say anything. He probably grown into a very sweet handsome man now. Most kid bullies turn out sweet because of the resulting guilt after they grow up(I made this theory up. Deseperate ladies put your phones down.)
coolred-There might be an unjust element in most of this, but people just blow things out of proportion. It’s hard to believe many women do it by choice, some do. I can tell you I personally wouldn’t. i still don’t feel sorry for those who do, and i don’t feel discomfort around them. I’ve had this religion teacher who kept on praising the new American teacher at school we all knew it was because she wore an abaya over her head, nigab, gloves, and socks. No kidding, I’m dead serious. We thought it was weird at first, then we just didn’t care, and why should we? we knew we would never even consider doing that. She simply isn’t us.
I wore an abaya formally by the age of 12,I bicycled(i had a few people giggle), i ran to the ice cream van, I ran to the bakalah, I ran and i ran. The only thing that i stopped to think for was my mom. She was & is so over protective, she can talk you out of anything. I was a tom boy when i was a kid. i had only male cousins around my age, my female cousins were a bit older and didn’t like me hanging with them. I had no trouble at all having fun. Most girls don’t want to have fun in those terms because they want to act all grown up. I had stopped wearing shorts under my abaya while out in public after 13. Really, people can see. It felt uncomfortable to be so bare and have to hold the abaya. There are so many things i left out simply because i don’t feel like typing th whole comment all over again, and you probably don’t want to know or aren’t interested in reading a long comment.
coffeecatholic…”mountain out of a molehill”…are you speaking from one who wore cold weather gear so she wouldnt freeze her ass off in the alaskan winter time while out enjoying herself…or are you speaking from personal experience of living under patriarchal rule that requires…under potential threat of personal harm…for women to wear all that gear just to do the most mundane of task…and to hell with the very hot temps she must suffer (men wear light and breezy white while women “must” wear heat sucking black)?
In which case…i will keep my mountain over your molehill…cause Ive climbed my mountain while you have only sled or skied down yours.
daifuku…on the contrary Im always happy to hear about Muslim girls leading “normal” lives …might i ask where you lived out this normal childhood…that might make all the difference in how I view your comment. Thank you.
Peter…nobody here is critisizing Muslim women that are doing these things despite hijab (not because of it)…our critisizm lies in the patriarchal forces that force women and girls into such restraints and paint it Islamic and Gods law.
I for one wore all that for 18 years so I know just how uncomfortable it is…how hot it can be…and how difficult it can be to do even the most mundane of tasks…I dont care if a thousand muslim women get on here and say they wear it by choice and have no problem with it…I was forced to wear it…I was damn hot and uncomfortable…and I found doing some things difficult and exasperating wheh they didnt have to be and I live in a society and culture in which women are judged extremely harshly for failing to wear that… as are so many other muslim women in the world.
Its all well and good to say “think of Jennah” when right here and right now we are forced to live under patriarchal customs that brand the female “straying from the proper path” for daring to go without hijab or for daring to pretend they are not wearing it and engage in activities only small children or males are allowed to do. At least thats how it is where I live…where do you and your wife live?
When I saw this lady skating in black, I saw her as neither liberated nor oppressed. I saw her as a silly exhibitionist.
Ditto for the women who come to the United States and go out as if they were in the Kingdom. Every country has its dress code, and every country separates the modest from the immodest.
Choosing to skate in an abaya and niqab is not only dangerous, but irrational, and testifies to a poor understanding of what is required of women (Islamically) by way of dress.
I (Saudi girl) criticized this act childish
Abaih are wearing and it must respect
I think that girl is very brave and do something unacceptable in our society
I do not think we need your sympathy. We are more than happy with what you think
Alabaih religious social order, and we are very proud of
Look to her, although it has done something rejected by society, but still wearing Abaih
What I mean is that if he does not want to wear adaih Society would not force her
Despite all the reservations to her disposal, but she did
@ Marahm,
I agree with you and that she had acted in an irrational
But I did not understand what you want to say on how to dress
Did you mean that it should Doffs
Alabaih when it is in the United States of America.
Is a religion depend on the place?
Alabaih religious symbol before the symbol of social
I travel with a family almost every summer and Reality i always in the positions of funny
For example, last summer we were at the site of historic there was also a French tourist group the funny that they left the photography historical and They photographed me and my mother
I strongly believe, given a choice of abandoning their abayas, the overwhelming majority of Saudi women will reject the idea outright. What we have here is some western ladies (and men) want to impose their ideas on Saudi women, they want to tell us, what is right and what is wrong, they want to tell us that our women are repressed, while our men are the oppressors.
It seems that Saudi Arabia has become a dumping ground of those with certain agenda in mind. Taking cheap shots at Islam and Saudi Arabia in general, has become the norm in some blogs. While I would not even contemplate telling American women not to wear a thong at public beaches in California or Florida, what make you think it is within your rights to tell Saudi women what to wear and what not to wear. Every community has its standards, and this is the standard in Saudi Arabia.
A Saudi man:
I’m Saudi, and I feel completely comfortable in confirming that yes, Saudi society (enforced by its male half) does oppress women. Sure, I admit freely, given a choice most Saudi women will keep wearing the abaya. The question remains; what choice? Saudi society does not give them that choice. Instead, it dictates what it sees as modesty, and then forces everyone to conform to that standard whether they agree to it or not. The keyword here is not “what is considered modest” but “freedom of choice”.
A Muslim woman should have the right to interpret the modesty requirements. Some will insist that only a full abaya will do (more power to them), some others will think that a simple head scarf will suffice, others still will have another interpretation.
As someone who lives and has lived in highly multicultural contexts I cannot fault this woman for her choice of how she decides to dress “modestly” whatever country she is in, and whatever activity she is doing. The full range is observable on the streets and in the fitness classes where I live. The issue of choice is of course different in various countries like KSA, and Iran where laws mandate specific degrees of covering.
In the video no one else among the skaters seems to be paying any attention to her. There are other skaters in various forms of cover: headscarf only, or what looks like a knee length abaya and pants. Her own abaya is hemmed above the foot part of the skate, so it is reasonably safe, given her level of proficiency. Like most in a skating rink she seems content to skate forward circling the rink, so she is unlikely to come to particular harm.
With all due appreciation for the difference in centuries Life has a nice photo of 3 Western ladies skating taken February 20, 1885:
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?imgurl=dbc314f3ec1a1123&q=ice%20skate%203%20women%20well-dressed%201885&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dice%2Bskate%2B3%2Bwomen%2Bwell-dressed%2B1885%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
primrose, I stand by my statement, “Choosing to skate in an abaya and niqab is not only dangerous, but irrational, and testifies to a poor understanding of what is required of women (Islamically) by way of dress.”
Over the centuries, there has been much controversy regarding what is to be inferred from Islamic sources re: proper dress for women. The fact that the issue is still being debated is proof that the Islamic directive is vague, at best.
Peter: ‘Muslim’s rarely criticize all the skaters NOT in hijab…’
You are kidding right? Seriously, ask ANY Muslims who wears it and they will tell you of the horrors (on Earth and beyond) waiting the people that do not. Is that not criticism?
Y’all like to say how it is their ‘choice’ to dress this way but that choice does not happen without ‘fear’. A child is not born feeling that they have to cover this way. Is it really still a ‘choice’ when you have been convinced to be fearful (of whatever) if you do not dress a certain way? I’m not going to judge a woman who dresses that way. I will judge those that taught her to fear and those that taught her teachers.
Even the existentialists acknowledge that choice is not unlimited, only that one makes choices within a range of options. Children are not terribly free, and adults bear the limits of their education, culture, and society.
Interpreting “modesty’ is different over time, place, and culture. Sonja Hennie’s early skating costumes are now just quaint, and long. And, in honour of the beach thong comment above, not long ago the same beachwear acceptable in the South of France would have you arrested in the North.
In most Muslim majority countries (including Malaysia where it is the official religion) there is a broad range of acceptably modest attire. The question in this post seems more related to Saudi law about the abaya, rather than Islam per se (while acknowledging that Saudi law is based on one legal school of Islam), or the life crippling disadvantages of never ice-skating, or of one woman’s choice to wear an abaya while skating at a rink in Malaysia.
She’s brave! Good for her! However, I couldn’t stop thinking about accidentally catching the fabric in the skate blade or wheels when doing something like that!
Saudi Man…easy for a man to proclaim saudi women would prefer to wear it given the choice…why not give them that choice then come back and defend it. And nobody here is critisizing Islam…where did that statement come from?
And for the love of God…why is wearing the abaya and hijab always compared to wearing a thong or miniskirt etc…from one extreme to the other…has anyone ever heard of the MIDDLE PATH..that is what Islam is supposed to be….sheesh.
I live in a place where the very few Muslim women who actually live here do, I am told, usually wear hijab, but not even jilbab, much less an abaya. I have lived here nearly 20 years and have never seen a woman of any nationality in niqab.
Sure, I’ve heard the horror stories – usually told in the third person by people with an ax to grind. But nearly all the exposure I have had to the thinking of ladies who customarily wear abaya and niqab is the way these items are marketed on Islamic clothing web sites.
And the niqab in particular – or if the web site is run by folks who think niqab is obligatory, then this applies to the versions with that double screen – is invariably pitched as the option for those who value that extra bit of privacy. Not even as ‘the version to satisfy your local cultural norms.’
coolred – it reminds me of arguments I used to have with my brother over weather. I love hot, sunny weather (because we don’t get enough where I live). My brother likes rainy weather. He would say nonsense like, ‘Oh, so you would rather have no rain at all and have the plants die and the earth to burn up and everybody to die of dehydration because of no water then!’ and I would say that’s not true and he would say that well since I like hot weather that must be what I would like. I would then proceed with something equally as stupid – ‘So you want constant rainy weather then, so the whole earth floods and there’s no land and all the plants rot and die and the animals die of starvation because there’s no plants to eat!’, and it would go on and on…these abaya vs. thong arguments are pretty much the same thing.
At least she’s skating. I’ve seen pictures of Catholic nuns in full habit skating. Having said that if she was in a non-Muslim country she would be attracting a lot of attention to herself so, in fact, would be defeating the purpose of the covering in my opinion.
This might better be posted in a different spot on this blog but I have this article in my hand and have now found it on-line. It was in the Vancouver (Canada) Sun on May 11.
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/time+Saudi+Arabia+unshackle+female+population/1583910/story.html
In defense of analogies about beach wear , including thongs, although I am not in favour of arguments by extreme examples, I think in this case the analogy holds, since the full abaya, niqab, gloves and socks are at an extreme of Muslim dress (along with the burqa) and the thong is at an extreme of beach wear (along with the monokini).
Mel–no worries, her abaya is hemmed to a reasonable length and she seems to be wearing pants, and proceeding with caution (no Beilmann spins, triple lutzes or the like).
Primrose–I am sorry that you were photographed so rudely. My French friends and relatives all say that French tourists are extremely badly behaved.
Coolred–did you wear the abaya for 18 years because of Bahraini law, your husband’s or his family’s “law”, social requirements, or some other reason? Sorry to ask, but it just occurred to me that unless I am mistaken Bahraini law doesn’t require the abaya. (In my vast experience of being there, I only noticed the men I must admit
).
Chiara, perhaps you only noticed the men because the women are meant to be invisible?
Lynn– I think it was because the men were tall, in white thobes, and wearing the smaugh–so they stood out literally and figuratively. I should be clear that “my vast experience of being there” was a number (too many) of hours spent in the airport., and thus a joke. The men stood out because I am more accustomed to seeing Arab men in Western clothes, or jellaba,, or kacheba,but rarely the thobe and smaugh (and the average height was taller than in North Africa my usual haunt).
)
I don’t recall the women being particularly different, which makes me wonder, because if alot had been wearing very traditional black full cover I’m sure I would have noticed, since I now see it more often in Canada than I had at that time.
Thanks for the opportunity to clarify, and even to explain my joke (Coolred might not have remembered the details of my lengthy stay in Bahrain LOL
A couple of thoughts:
First off, have to say, I am glad to see the sister out there being physically active. It always makes me happy to see women doing the same things as everyone else. Their is absolutely NOTHING un-Islamic about staying fit and engaging in sports. What bothers me is that when you wear an outfit like that (for the purpose of “modesty”) and you inevitably attract WAY more attention than you did if you were in regular looking, modest street wear and a hijab. As a matter of fact, isn’t there another hijabi (skating with a man) in that video, even holding his hand; yet none of the focus is on her at all. Ironic? My husband was swimming at the Y awhile back and a Muslim sister came in with her kids and jumped into the pool in a full jilbab and a long khimar. We both thought it was ridiculous looking. There are better ways to go about things. Especially when you are in a public, mostly non-Muslim enviroment. You have to find a balance. If you can’t find a venue that you are comfortable in, create one! The sisters here rent out an indoor pool w/ female lifeguards, 6 months out of the year. Fabulous! So,it CAN be done.
Now the vent:
I am so sick of seeing little Muslim girls getting marginalized when it comes to sports. I hate it, hate it, hate it! That has NEVER happened with my girls and, God help me, it never will. My daughters will learn martial arts, skateboarding, soccer and whatever else they want to learn to do. Maybe they will take up running like me. Only difference is that the sleeves will be long and so will the pants…..big deal. If I can walk around dressed modestly, I can certainly run while dressed modestly, kick a ball while dressed modestly and even manage to ollie while dressed modestly. Heck, back when I used to skateboard I did it all in long baggy jeans, a big hooded sweatshirt with my hair pulled up into a cap or baseball hat. Even way back then, (before I was Muslim) I was still super modest while doing my thing! LOL.
Truth be told, I am WAY more concerned about the Muslimahs who walk around malls, texting and sipping on Frappacinos and giggling; more than I am about a girl who focuses on her jump front kicks in a dojo or aiming for the goal on the soccer field. I think if more Muslim girls were devoted to sports, their parents would be much happier with their development and behaviors.
That’s my 2 cents (okay maybe that was closer to 5 cents)
I’m from South Africa and muslim women are one of the most decent women in the country and that is from a non muslim women.Went to school with them,worked with them and wherever they go they are respected and that is not because they wear abayas or headscarf cause they don’t.The one’s I know wears only designer clothing and they never brag about it.They only coverd their head during ramadan.Can someone please tell me how less better they are because of not wearing the abaya.For the lady on a video to skate with the abaya,it is dangerous.I can’t mention how many times i’ve tribbed of that thing,just walking.I just wish women had a choice and not be critised for it.
@ A Saudi man
I am a Saudi girl
I agree with you in every word
what you said which is very impressive – but is there to hear
What thing do we need to others sympathize with us
What is the rationale to justify their interference in our lives
@Saudi Jawa
Be free as you want
But do not talk about something I think you dont know it a lot
Frankly speaking, I am doubt you are a Saudi
Chiara…I was forced by my “ultra conservative pious bearded short thobed miswak in hand siwak in breast pocket you cant do anything because your a woman and its haram hypocritically pedophile” husband.
The culture demands the abaya from its bahraini girls or else their rep is low and trashy…but more and more now days they are abandoning it in favor of long shirts and pants etc with just hijab…even that seems to becoming more scarce these days…and good riddance I say….but there are still areas in Bahrain where the girls MUST cover or all hell breaks loose..where I live its very conservative so there are more that wear it then dont.
primrose…who exactly is interfering in your life? People here are just expressing opinions…your free to leave if you feel someone has interfered in your life merely with words and opinions.
Coolred–thanks, that is a comprehensive answer, and possibly the best description you’ve ever written of your ex. Use it for the novel!
Glad to hear Bahrain is relaxing socially so that “choice” becomes more genuine. I guess a “ultra conservative pious bearded short thobed miswak in hand siwak in breast pocket you cant do anything because your a woman and its haram hypocritically pedophile” would survive better in a smaller, more conservative place.
Coolred-I was talking about my home country, Saudi, KSA, Abayas and thobes, home of elrob3 elkhali, my home. I come from the Eastern Province if you must know. And now that Chiara mentions it, I too want to know how come you say that if you lived in bahrain? I have been to Bahrain gazilion times, I can tell you many women don’t wear the abaya, there is no such law. Maybe some-not all-of those who do-do it for/because their families. But Bahrain, I mean come on?:S
“Chiara, perhaps you only noticed the men because the women are meant to be invisible?”LOL
On the whole “BLACK ABAYA” thing, we freakin love the color; we choose not to wear the Egyption/Lebanese style abaya because we simply don’t think it’s fashionable. Evidentally many of you have no clue how Saudi women look like in their abayas, or how many of them actually wear the cover properly. Many have their abayas open and have their sheilas on with half their hair out. And clearly Lynn you have no clue how seductive, fashionable these lovely lovely ladies can be. I wish someday you would get the chance to see how many Saudi women have customized abayas. Some go flashy, others stay modest. Even the ones that are not covered, will tell you foreigners make a big deal out of those who are.
Wearing an abaya is an art form that can not be mastered by anyone. I met a Russian girl in the UAE she was studying there where I had applied. She worked the abaya like a Khaleeji gal, in ways I could never work it myself. You either have it or you don’t. Her Arabic wasn’t bad either
oh so you had a conservative husband. Well that explains it!
Primrose–I enjoy your comments, and as you are aware, they contribute to the discussion.
Perhaps, rather than feeling too badly that others disagree with some aspects of Saudi life, you might see their comments as an opportunity to understand other perspectives, and to stimulate your own thinking, and therefore your comments. Some Saudis who contribute here would also like to change aspects of Saudi life, which isn’t to say they reject Saudi.
Daifuku– a quick google search of custom abayas reveals the whole range, and I agree Muslim women in “cover” can really “work it”. Then again one should never underestimate Eastern Europeans, Mediterraneans, or Hispano-Americans. Even the Chinese in Mao suits (the original obligatory ones) could “work it”.
I would imagine being born and raised to wear an abaya would make it easier than being forced by geography and law to adopt it later on.
By the way this discussion has forced me to remember skating in an ankle length skirt, and hiking ski slopes in the same–A-line is the best and navy wool for warmth–by choice, or lack of other apparel (not planning for ski slopes in Morocco).
yea i searched abayas on google a million times those are not even anywhere as good:P. I completely agree with you on different cultures working their own thing, I’m sorry if i said anything that may sound like I implied otherwise.
Forget ski slopes, have you seen those goats that climb argan trees in Morocco?
It would be nice to see this up close.
Daifuku
I understand that primary purpose of wearing abaya is for women to be dressed modestly, according to majority of saudi religious authorities. Now you are saying that some saudi women wear flashy abbayas or seductive abayas – I find it somewhat strange. Don’t you think that this kind of abayas negate the stated purpose of wearing it ?
Gee, what will be next in the “Make fun of those odd females in hijab/niqab” series?
Anyone who lives in Saudi should take about a split second to realize that this skating rink is not in a Saudi mall. If it were, the skaters – male or female – wouldn’t be dressed the way they are. We would see boys skating while wearing their thobes (long robes), too, and then no one would the argument about how dangerous and oppressive those clothes are for girls, right? And how about the argument that they’re forced to wear those clothes, because the men and older boys all wear the same long, white robes, too.
Coolred, Bahrain is no Saudi… it’s not as if all the women wear abayas there. By the way, the traditional Gulf-style abaya is not tight-fitting, it’s very thin material, and it creates a breeze when you walk; you wear something very light under it and you’re no more hot than you would be in anything else that covers you. The jilbab-type is hot, like a coat.
By the way, I know of skating rinks in Saudi that have hours only for women, so girls and women can go and skate without their abayas. Maybe that’s where this girl learned – and more power to her; she looks like she’s having fun.
ella-Yes, not all people are the same. Not all wear the abaya for the same reason. I’m not saying all of them are flashy or seductive, some of them are. Many of them are fashionable, without being seductive. there is nothing against beauty/fashion in my view of relegion and I don’t think it means dressing immodestly. To be honest, Emiraties are the most I’ve seen wearing their abayas outside the
gulf. Ma sha’a Allah they wear it elegantly & I respect them for that. I’m planning on coming back to the states with my abaya. This layering thing is not working for me it’s making me sweat like crazy-ew, we didn’t need the details-In sha’a Allah I don’t end up looking like a clutz. I really have never been able to work it. I hope that clears a few things up =). Still haven’t got the picture? Maybe you should consider visiting the “hidden Kingdom”?
Daifuku–I just meant that people find ways of making any uniform unique and attractive, and human nature prevails. Maoist China had a number of population reduction strategies, including segregating men and women, uniforms, the only available clothing being boxy pant and shirts in greys, black and the occasional light blue, and sending the wife and husband to work in opposite corners of the country. There was still alot of flirting among teens and people finding each other attractive.
Moroccan jellabas have fashions and styles, and some are tighter than others, etc.
I will add on my list of reasons to visit Saudi–flashy abayas and how to work them.
Now I’ve travelled that route from Marrakesh to Essaouira and seen goats, and argan trees, donkeys and horses (on market day), and camels on the beach (had to keep photographing those), but no goats in trees! I’ll just have to go back! LOL
daifuku
If someone wants to wear flashy or seductive abaya then why wear them at all? After all Qu’ran does not say anything about wearing abaya but all about wearing modest clothes.
Just a thought.
As for visiting “magic kingdom” , – tell me how can I do it without taking my husband and/or mahram for a ride?
Ella-I don’t know, ask them.
that’s their personal preference, i guess.
And I am sure American Bedu has adressed travelling to saudi. You are not required to have a mahram to enter the place. If you mean how to go about, then there are buses for tourists, & taxis. It still is wise to bring someone along as is the case when travelling to any country, whether you are male or female. So, you shouldn’t be worried about going there as a female and being opressed by the wolves of the Saudi desert( i know you don’t think that. Some people do.) Good luck!<<<like she really is going -_-Allah y5leek bas
I’m sorry if i sound obnoxious. I miss home so much:(
Chiara-You are lucky. Ma sha’a Allah. One day I will be the modern Battuta of Arabia & maybe join you
Daifuku–I suspect you are the only one who will be travelling to Saudi as tourist visas seem very hard to come by. On the other hand, ibn Battuta will have nothing on us by the end of our travels LOL
When can you return to Saudi? or do you need other solutions to your homesickness until then?
I’ve ice-skated in my abaya, hiked through canadian mountains, kayak’ed, washed the car, picnic’d, gone to the beach, come to think of it…what DON’T I do in an abaya?
It’s fabric. Some of mine have some more ‘individual’ personality added to them, in the form of embroidery and sparkly stuff that makes me feel all pretty and feminine, which technically is a no-no but I do it anyways. (but still black-on-black) My choice, I wear it the way I want. None of mine are tight, I mean, that would defeat the purpose. The jeans under it, well, that’s a totally different story!
The only thing I can think of that irritates me when wearing an abaya is pushing a shopping cart. Inevitably I’m pulling my abaya out from the wheel that it’s managed to eat. LOL. Which means I get rips on that same side, and it means I get new abayas every six months or so. Dumb grocery shopping. LOL. One more reason to detest that chore!
The woman’s having fun, she’s enjoying herself, masha Allah, good for her. Who cares what she’s wearing? And it’s not bloody well unsafe in the least; women have been doing excersizing of all kinds for hundreds of years; skirts only became hiked up and jeans worn in the last century. Not a big deal. Hem it up, add a pair of pants, and twirl away – wheeee fun!
Incidently, I think that was Nzingha’s blog that posted her friend rollerblading in an abaya. I thought it was terrific, I mean, go sistah! Personally I do whatever my heart desires to do as long as it’s halal.
Swimming pools in the west are often reserved for muslim women, for them to enjoy freely without men. There’s tons of women-only-gyms. We played badminton a while back, all of us munaqabah/abayah’d.
Doesn’t stop us from living life, from having fun, actually it makes me wonder why people are so fixated on ‘covering up’…the surgeon general of the USA says to. I’m just following Allah’s orders, which supercede the surgeon general’s
Again, why are we drawing attention to this?
@kimberly–Congratulations–you have obviously been living in a free and democratic country that does not restrict your choice to wear an abaya or practice your religion. Also I lived in the Emirates for five years and worked closely with educated Emirati females who removed their abayas every time they went to Europe or the States and even when they went from Abu Dhabi to Dubai (where their family wouldn’t find out). I also worked with very devout Egyptian Muslims whose wives wore western clothes and did not even cover their hair. In a free and democratic country I would always stand up for your choice to wear an abaya–as in the Emirates the enlightened rulers have given all non-emiratis the choice to not wear an abaya.
@Chiara–I have pictures of goats in trees in Oman (another enlightened islamic country where I could comfortably anywhere wear western clothes)
Someone posted earlier on that the lady skating in the abaya was “irrational” because she’s doing so while wearing a prohibitive garment. No lie-I agree with that, but the video is also circumstantial evidence of just how irrational religion is. The fixation with covering, or wearing special garments because of dogma tied to cultural tradition is ridiculous. Someone failing observe the rules of modest dress, or to do so “properly”, or not doing it at all, automatically makes them subjects of derision because they aren’t “true” to the “beliefs” of their coreligionists.
I’ve always wondered why such emphasis was placed on clothing–especially women’s clothing. Muslims in particular have just such a fascination with what other’s wear and try to determine the level of others’ religiosity or moral values. I think when Muslims as a community drop the “covering=modesty” fallacy then perhaps some of that energy can be directed towards substantive social justice issues like equal rights for women.
Kimberly
Nobody is “fixated” on ‘covering up’. It is just that some people think one should have a choice.
When you were/are living in Canada you had a choice, you could wear hijab, abaya or none of these.
When you are in KSA or Iran you do not have the choice – you have to wear it or else.
As for hiking through Canadian mountains in abaya. it is difficult to climb/hike up the mountains wearing jeans. I can hardly imagine someone to climb, carry backpack and wear abaya. Congratulations.
Why do people keep try to explain away my experiences and observations while living here in Bahrain for 23 years? Why the hell would I make up stuff on a blog..for what purpose people?
Yes…Bahrain is more relaxed about hijab and abaya…everyone knows that. Is there another country in the world that is so anal and uptight about women covering up as Saudi Arabia? No…BUT…as I SAID…there are areas of Bahrain that are still quite conservative…dont go to Seef and form your opinion that not many wear it…because the more conservative areas that do expect their women to wear it…I MEAN DO EXPECT THEIR WOMEN TO WEAR IT OR ELSE…do not generally hang out at Seef or City Center etc…I live in Hidd…very conservative area…my removing the hijab a few years back turned the damn place on its ear for some reason…I was the talk of the town and my possible reconversion to Christianity was the hot topic of the day (month)…which I found quite ironic considering these very same people never believed my acceptance of Islam wholeheartedly to begin with….if your not an Arab…your never truly a Muslim…and no…I did not make that up either.
Believe me…dont believe me…I dont give 2 goats up a trees moment of thought about it…I give my opinions…I state my observations…and now and then I even use humor to get my point across…but I NEVER EVER make shit up.
btw…as I stated…I dont care if YOU (any woman) wore the abaya and found it wonderfully freeing and delightful and cant wait to slap on your girl child the moment she toddles towards the front door….I DID NOT LIKE IT AND I WAS DAMN HOT IN IT AND I WOULD NEVER EVER AGREE TO FORCING FEMALES TO WEAR IT…and where I live…they are forced. Nuff said.
“if your not an Arab…your never truly a Muslim…and no…I did not make that up either”
Yes, you did. When you say “never” you’re speaking for all of us, and it’s simply not true. You also make up Islamic rulings all the time, which is a much more serious issue.
Wearing and then taking off the hijab is a very different thing from never putting it on, as I’m sure you know, and it’s not surprising that it caused talk – especially in a place where you say it’s required to wear an abaya..
@primrose
LOL. Personal attacks will get you no where and will indeed weaken your own standpoint. Remember that one of the golden rules of debating is to attack the argument, not the argument’s owner
أنا سعودي. و عشت في السعودية طول عمري. تبغي تصدقي مرحبابك، ما تبغي تصدقي برضو مرحبابك. نقطة نقاشي ما زالت قائمة و لم تردي عليها سوى بـ”أنت حر”. إذا أردتي أن ترتدي العباية فهذا حقك الشخصي، و سأحارب أي شخص يقول غير ذلك. لكن من ناحية أخرى أؤمن أن من لا تريد ارتداء العباية أيضاً لها الحق في ذلك، و منعها يعتبر كبت لحرياتها الشخصية. و هذه هي نقطتي. المجتمع السعودي (عجبنا أو لم يعجبنا) يكبت الحريات الشخصية عموماً و حريات النساء خصوصاً.
munaqabah…oh please dear sister…please copy paste one of my comments in which I “made up” an Islamic ruling…if you can…and I did…I will sincerely apologize sister…far be it from me to assume I can just change the religion to suit my own purposes…I leave that up to the Imams and muttawa who run this place.
And I use the word “never” when my personal experience has proven to me that “never” is called for. I have spoken to…read about…and listened to enough talk to know that Arabs dont truly accept you as a bonafide Muslim (there is always that little bit of doubt that you would happily revert to your former ways and religion given the right (wrong) incentive) because they believe only Arab/Muslim born as such are turly and 100% Muslim…that is MY experience and understanding…so I use the word “never”…you can use whatever the hell you like.
Why should it cause talk that I removed my hijab? Muslims arent supposed to backbite..now THAT is in the Quran clear as day and without ambiguity. Its MY life and MY sin if I choose to remove it…I imagine they have their own sins that they should feel free to discuss in assorted company with.,…hmmm?
And yes…its required to wear an abaya here…in this culture…this Arab culture…but I might point out to you in case you havent got it yet…Im not Arab and feel no compulsion to wear Arab clothing…when I say I was forced…I mean I was forced by my abusive hypocritical Arab husband who cared more about what people thought of his American wife looking all Arab and “modest” like rather than care about the miserable life he was making for me and our children…whole other story for another day.
Soon as I divorced that f**king hypocrite…I chose to live my life how I wanted…which meant I removed the hijab that I DONT believe in and Dont feel obliged to wear just to make the native male population content and sexually in control of themselves.
6ayeb Mr. Jawa I am not trying to defend anyone, bas gooly ant sha59yan ma tshoof in elsalfah mkabareenha zyadah 3n elizoom? Ana ma a5tilif ma3ak fee inah baladna iloo mashakil yabeelha 7al. Hal6areegah ely kil wa7id y5rf kalam min 3ndoo o yjeeb lik elbahrain o 7yatoo elsha59iyah felsalfa, had’y el6areega sa7? Billah, If one sees their own experience as a valid method to prove somethinng, then the same goes for everyone elses’. And I never stated anything like that to begin with! ana ma glt tajrbty elsha59iyah 3ashan akad’ib a7ad, wala 3ashan anfy wag3hom, What would i gain by doing that? I know the comments aren’t adressed to anyone in particular, still it doesn’t make sense to have that much grudge over everyone even if the reason someone was supressed hadn’t a thing to do with the country’s law, like in the case of Bahrain. Ya3ny elwa7id y7akim 3aglah sheway, moo kil salfa o elthania yglibha hooshah o ina wallah elSaudia min asawa’a ma7al fee el3alam o madry shinoo. Km sinah 9ar lina 3lagat ma3a aglab had’y elboldan ely elrespective commenters yjoo minha? O kam sinah 9ar lina o 7na n3eed o nzeed fe nafs elkalam? O kam sinah ysaloo nafs elasilah el7ilwah o y3lgoo elta3leegat el7lwah? Hal had’a y36eeny el7g iny anjan o a6l3 kalam yjr7 nas malhom da5al? Y3ny as much as I would agree with some things you said to Prim, look around…I think everyone needs to hold on to their hair here*whistles* I’m sorry I adressed my commentto you, bas 7abah atkalam 3rby n u started it
Giving comments based on MY personal experiences does not negate those comments simply because you have not had the misfortune of living a life like mine…and the country I have lived it in.
No Saudi is not the worst country in the world…but then again…this blog is about life in Saudi with all its good and bad.
btw I find it some what rude to comment in a language in which the owner of the blog might not be able to read and thus moderate (this is an English language blog and the owner considers English her first language)…if you feel so inclined..send a personal message to the one your addressing….but thats just me.
Sirius–if I can find my camels gazing at the Atlantic photos maybe we could do an exchange LOL
Goats are so amazingly agile, they can well get to the best fruits of an argan tree or any other similarly low growning tree.
Coolred–thanks for elaborating on how rigid social law can be–as or more powerful than codified law, not to mention “family law” as established by the household or its “head”.
Kimberly–a grocery basket on wheels! (discovered on my recent visit to a suburban grocery store), or the tried and true “little old lady” (or urban walker) personal wheeled steel wire cart, or the hockey bag on wheels (preferred mode for young male students in residence), or gym bag on wheels (unisex student in residence). LOL
Saudi Jawa–an excellent reminder of the art of debate or discussion–ie without personal attacks. If I understood the rest of your comment correctly, while you are Saudi born and raised, and living there for your lifetime, though not tribal (as you’ve stated before on this blog) you disagree with forced clothing rules, whether socially or legally enforced. Correct?
Daifuku–okay you’ve force me to find a website to teach me those mystery numbers!
That is my contribution to the backlash! 
@Daifuku:
Congratulations. I have just wasted for 10 minutes trying to decipher all that. In retaliation I have just sent a ninja assassin to take you out. Good day to you!
Seriously though, I’ve never been good at reading that kind of writing. It’s worse than l33t talk I tell ya! So my reply should be taken as being written under duress
I get that we Saudis feel a lot of frustration of always being in the lime light, and not in a positive way. I really do. I too get tired of the endless debates between the liberals, the conservatives, and the poor moderates caught in between. But what’s the alternative?
I’m sure we can all agree that our beloved country has many problems it needs to solve. Unfortunately, we have operated for so long under the banner of “we don’t air our dirty laundry” that the smelly undies have piled up, and we are so paralyzed by the coming headlights of a globalized community that we can neither hide them, nor can we start on cleaning up. We are basically in a state of shock. And we need a good hard slap just to get things going.
Sure these endless debates, angry blog posts, and critical news pieces might seem a bit much and extreme. Just remember, people said the same things about the antics of a certain Mr Gandhi and a man called Martin Luther King.
@Chiara
Correct. I’m a liberal hippie, without all the drugs and long hair (had a hair cut recently!)
Saudi Jawa: ‘Just remember, people said the same things about the antics of a certain Mr Gandhi and a man called Martin Luther King.’
You made me very curious about how, or even IF, the history of these men were taught in Sauid Arabia. Wouldn’t they be considered ‘fitna’ with all their social upheavals and all.
Coolred: Your experiences, like mine, are not worth anything if they do not put a positive spin on Islam or Arabs. Throw in not being a Muslim and your educated opinion or personal experiences are discarded as the rantings of an ignorant bigot. Whatever…dosn’t bother me, just confirms my beliefs!
Carol,
Here’s a good topic for your next “Make fun of those odd females in hijab/niqab” series. LOL
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090517/lf_afp/saudiwomensportsislam_20090517042407
Yeah, Go Girls!!
Saudi Jawa–any non-substance abusing liberal hippie with a haircut and a love of satay must be an excellent fellow indeed!
How true that those who speak up for reform are reviled, or as Einstein said:
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.”
Daifuku, Goats in trees = great way to keep cool in hot sun!
Coolred-I’m sorry you might not know how to read Arabish, & I’m sorry you find what I’ve done rude.
They say fire is an enjoyable site, I didn’t want to adress any of your triple comments since I didn’t want you to burn any longer for anyone’s amusement. If I really didn’t care what so ever about you-as a human being- I would have let you finish painting a wise picture of yourself for others to see. If you are mad because you assumed I’ve said something bad about you, go ahead assume what you like. It seems this is what you’ve been doing so far.
Lynn-You obviously like watching fire for amusement.
This kind of behaviour is exactly why most Saudis don’t care to shock people by telling them what life there is really like. If a person had an A-hole for a husband it is certainly no reason to drag all arabs into it. If you are assuming I’m programmed to hear something the way I like it, then someone doesn’t know what their comments contain. I’m done with this poor excuse for a debate. If you want to argue any further, argue with someone else. I’m joining the Saudis who feed you what you want and laugh their asses off what racist,ignorant people think. Yes, all our husbands, brothers, uncles, fathers, are A-holes like Coolred’s husband. And the young muslim males are just soon to be A-holes too. Yes, yesterday I got whipped for going to school without my abaya. Whatever gets you by darling.
Caraboska-Agreed.
Chiara-You can do it! I know you can:)
Jawa-I just didn’t have Arabic keys & I certainly wasn’t going to use a virtual KB. I can type short things in arabic without the letters being there, certainly wouldn’t have tried it with that comment. No, don’t send the ninja asassin, you sick Saudi male, you!:P Making a martyr out of me and vilifying Saudis(oh, yeah it has gone to include all Arabs)more than they alreday have been, will not contribute to thi sdiscussion:PI thought you knew that Jawa. Maybe you need to redecipher my comment. Hehehe.
Why do you assume I couldnt read what you wrote?
I skate recreationally a few times a week in Wash-DC area. I saw a few ladies wearing headscarves but never an abaya. And as someone who skates regularly I can tell you that any garment falling that long below your knees will make you feel awkward and stumbling, and more prone to falling = hazardous to be around.
Once we had to deal with three teenage girls in floor-length skirts (non-Muslim) bumbling around in center ice, which is usually reserved for figures, footwork and spin practice (translation: if you can’t move quickly, you don’t belong there.) They were a mess. We told them nicely to move to the boards. They didn’t. So we simply psyched them out using a usual bag of tricks (like two people circling the center-ice area with forwards or backwards crossovers building up speed more and more until a moron caught in the middle of two swift, spandexed skaters is brought to tears and scampers out. Childish, I know, but highly satisfying).
But I digress.
I don’t think anyone would argue that she has to disrobe before taking the ice, but it’s pretty obvious to me after years of skating that wearing this type of outfit on ice makes you slow, stumbling and dangerous to others because you are not in full control of your movements.
On another note: Dear AB, can you please list specific malls/places in KSA that have skating rinks? Thank you.
Can people stop talking about how it’s dangerous to skate while wearing the abaya? Chiara has mentioned at least twice that it seemed just that the bottom was hemmed and was in no danger of getting caught in the skates.
Also, I just want to say if you’ve seen a man who’s graduated from college in-line skates then you’ve seen a rare breed indeed (even rarer if you’ve seen a skateboarder!) unfortunately, Saudi society has a stigma for older people doing “childish” things. Case in point, I’m 21 and play lots of videogames (as evidenced by me working at a games website) and I’ve been scolded many times about games being for “kids” and I should “grow up”. This applies to everything really, cartoons,comics,skating,biking. It’s sad really.
And the fact that ice skating rinks are inside family only malls and amusement parks means that young men have even a less chance to skate than young women in Saudi Arabia. Whenever I manage to sneak past the guards into the Mall of Dharan I tried to get on the indoor rink I was rebuffed with a stern “this is for kids get lost” by the attendant.
Also @Saudi Jawa: ahaha lol I can tell you’re Hijazi through your text accent.
Mohamed S–A man named Intrepid! LOL
Thanks for explaining further the social restrictions on men.
NN–sorry but I’ve done enough skating and also spent 4 years wearing ankle length skirts (and winter coats)–stylish, and a Western fashion choice by me, but to the point where it became a campus event when I wore anything else, and when the “gentlemen” from the males’ residence did a panty raid, and hung one of my ankle length slips from a flagpole, it was identified and returned to me before I even noticed– to know that one can manoeuvre safely dressed in pants and an abaya hemmed to the ankle, and skating at the level this woman is.
Also there is not alot of centre ice action in this video, and she is going with the flow closer to the boards, rather better than most. No one on the ice is a standout (crossovers are beyond most), but all seem adequate and eager to learn and are having fun–more power to them, no matter what their dress.
I assume by “disrobe” you meant in the secondary British sense of “remove official vestments”, rather than in the primary and most common British and American sense of “undress”–now that would be shocking, a naked skater in Malaysia!! LOL
Daifuku–16(23)a(14)–having studied the matter this afternoon I’ve decided to develop my own transliteration of Arabic –that was “afwan” (for your confidence in me and encouragement). Don’t worry about the whip marks we’ll have the Plastic Surgery guy deal with them, anon. LOL
coolred-What I assumed is not that you couldn’t read that. What I assumed is that you understood what “might” means. You can read that comment over an over and you will find that I haven’t assumed anything. Thank you for pointing that out:D I was betting on it.
Chiara-Thank you. This guy has to be top of the notch. I am sure he is, right? I mean you wouldn’t let just about anybody handle my delicate body:P.
Your 3afwan has got me very confused. LOL
I don’t doubt that if one wants to prove a point, one can skate blindfolded or with ankle weights or with hands tied behind one’s back. The point I think AB was making, with which I fully concur, that skating in long, billowing garb is a lot less comfortable and makes you a lot more likely to fall. Forget triple lutzes; going with any degree of speed wearing this is impossible.
Also, I disagree that an ankle-length garment on the ice presents no safety issues. A skating boot extends way past the ankle, and it has hooks all the way up. The more advanced your level, the taller your boot. You don’t want to catch anything you are wearing on those hooks. If you know anyone who skates with pants over boots, why not ask them how many sessions it takes before the shin-covering part of their pant legs starts to look like lacework. I would not allow my child on the ice in anything ankle length.
Besides, skating involves some bending of the knees, you know. So if you wear anything ankle-length on ice, you’ll have to be ramrod straight at all times. A tiniest of knee-bend, and your ankle-length getup is dragging on the ice, catching your blades, your toepicks, and any ruts left in the ice by everyone else.
Of course, if the objective is simply to show that it IS possible to be on the ice in abaya, I take it all back.
If this was too subtle, let me restate a few things: Good on her for doing what she’s doing. Doing what she’s doing in tights or pants would have been a lot more comfortable and safe. She wouldn’t be able to do much more than what’s she doing on ice wearing what she’s wearing on ice. Did I mention good on her?
Finally, for your viewing pleasure. No comment necessary.
http://www.homa.org/templates/aht156/images/home12.jpg
http://www.homa.org/templates/aht156/images/home1.jpg
There are a lot refuse me here ?? Is this true, or I imagine that.
when you talk about saudi women you including me also so why you talk about me and refuses my opinion
You make us the subject of the debate and you dont want me to say that I want at least I also like to express that opinion (which you dont like it)
Spoke about the American women’s clothing (semi-naked in the sea) and I promise you that i will not open my mouth
____________
saudi jawa
What is freedom ” your opinion” ??
My opinion, Emancipating the mind from superstition and continue to maintain the useful things ,more attention to science ,freedom from the scenes of interest
If you are very interested in your country tried to convince the public of the importance of readings for example – explain to them that it is possible to be accepted and loved by people without the need to wear diamond wirstwatch
Advice
Do not forget the story of Crow and Pigeon
Advice
Do not forget the story of Crow and Pigeon
Be honest with yourself(know that you want to get) and will get it
NN–no worries, I can handle “subtlety”. I have now viewed the video at least 6 times.
I fail to see where her skating puts her in any particular danger because of the abaya. This is a general recreational skate with a rather low level of skill (understandable given the location), and even the people in the separated practice area in the “end zone” are doing simple moves. She is wearing pants, and in my years of skating wearing pants I’ve never caught anything in my toe picks or the hooks on my regulation figure skates (whether I should have been skating an outdoor canal 14 km twice a week on regulation figure skates is a separate consideration). Nor have any pants come to harm.
Ankle length can accomodate a flexed knee (because of boot and blade height), although if she is going to start racing around in a hockey crouch she’ll probably have trouble. In fact although she is most likely wearing ladies’ black figure skates she could be wearing hockey skates (no toe picks, no hooks).
This woman seems to be enjoying herself thoroughly as a very novice skater, including waving to companions, and I don’t see anyone paying any particular attention to her at all (except for the camera person obviously).
From the post it seems American Bedu feels women would be freer to enjoy figure skating in Saudi (which she acknowledges is different than in the video) sans abaya. That is a different question than safety, or whether this woman is dressed the way she chooses and feels comfortable, or whether Muslim women doing advanced figure skating should do so in track suits and headscarf. In fact her initial question was whether in viewing the video we see the woman as oppressed or enjoying herself. While the 2 are not mutually exclusive, given that in Malaysia she has a choice (or more of a choice) and given her behaviour I see her as enjoying herself.
Personally, I’m now planning to take up hydroplaning wearing something black and frilly (and ladies’ black figure skates which I covet–bleached blond hair optional):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39025000/jpg/_39025425_ice_gi300x200.jpg
daifuku…Im glad I fullfilled all your expectations of me…I imagine you got great satisfaction out of winning your “bet”…whatever. Must I point out that betting is haram…of course not…that would be terrible of me.
btw where did I assume you said anything bad about me…now your making assumptions that just arent there…Ive read somewhere recently that thats a bad thing to do…hmmm?
@Primrose:
Freedom, as I see it and as i wish to have it, is the freedom to think whatever thoughts I have and the freedom to express them. The freedom of deciding for myself what is good and what is bad. The freedom of not having a select few (whom I did not have a hand in choosing) have the ultimate say on what is moral and what is not.
Oh I agree with you on the point of the importance of education and reading. Totally. But an important supplement to that is having an open mind. What use is reading about a radical new scientific endeavor if I’m too close minded to even try it?
That is why freedom of expression (which includes the freedom to dress as I see fit) is so important in a progressive society. It allows us to exchange new ideas and not be afraid of them. A society that controls simple facets of personal expression is a society that tries to control how these same individuals think. When communist China first arose (one of the modern world’s most totalitarian governments ever), one of the very first things they did was their “culture revolution”. They controlled what ideas the people can have, and what they can’t, and thus successfully subjugating a nation of almost a billion strong, and cause a stagnation that has only recently been lifted.
I don’t think that the story of the crow and the pigeon (or the crow and peacock as I have learned it) is relevant here. I speak only for myself, but I’m not calling for blind copying of western values or some such. What I am for is espousing the universal values of freedom of thought and expression and applying it to our uniquely Muslim society to produce something better, that still retains its unique identity. Many countries have done so (many of them Muslim), and I see no reason why we can’t do the same.
@Mohamed S.
يا أم أيمن! جيبي الشيشة!
البشكة كلها هنا. سويلنا شوية منتو و كروبو و لا تنسي الدقس الله يصلحك!
Freedom……..
First our parents will tell us how we should dress best for which occasion and in which place. After as teenagers we want to belong to a group and dress accordingly. After we dress to please our spouses or ourselves, our boss, etc. We have no idea how many times already we have been “forced” by society.
- parents “force their children to do what is best (east veggies, dress properly, etc.)
- spouses want to receive credit for how the other behaves, dresses, etc.
- we all want to express something through our clothing and behaviour; social class, religion, piety, tribe, etc.
I thing abaya’s (and thoubs) are used as a perfect vehicle to express all of this.
I think we are “forced” all the time to wear something, depending on circumstances, place, etc. Anywhere one can be entirely out of context by not dressing appropiately, KSA is no exception.
Saudi Jawa–In English–excellent analysis; one might say the Chinese had 2 cultural revolutions–the 1st with the communist “win” in 1949, and the second, called the Cultural Revolution which was a “purification” (of the intelligentsia who have a nasty habit of thinking) and other “offenders” in the late 60′s and early 70′s. These are well represented in Bertolucci’s The Last Emperor, and in the recent biography of Mao.
–In Arabic–الكثير من لهجة حجازي LOL
Peter–another excellent analysis
Primrose–thanks for referencing the Crow and the Peacock.
Daifuku above–of course, for you only the best!
Hijazi talk:
bashka=shilah?
Daqs=daqoos(that sauce thing)?
what’s mento & crobo?
Chiara – most ladies’ skates are white or tan, although you can get boot covers in any psychodelic colors. But a basic ladies’ boot is white. I am of course referring to covetable boots and not the skanky plastic navy-blue, fungal-nest, dull-bladed affair you can get at skate rental counter.
You should be able to get black ladies’ boots in special order but rarely off the rack. Generally ladies will wear white boots and men will wear black. You will very rarely see a competing lady skater in any boot color other than white or tan. It’s the beauty thing. Skaters, they care about that stuff. Fancy that.
We’ll have to disagree on what constitutes the best skating attire. I will take my little outfits that work with my perfect spirals, not against them. Others can stick with whatever.
Can anyone answer my original question: are there any indoor rinks in KSA, and where are they? Thanks.
NN–thanks for the advice, if I go to the Olympics I promise to wear white (don’t like the tan and don’t need it for the leg length–but don’t want to annoy the judges). Otherwise I am happy and well located geographically to special order ladies’ black figure skates for their esthetic value.
@NN – The rink which I am most familiar is an indoor rink at the Royal Mall in Riyadh. However I have only seen young children skating on the rink. There may be a rink somewhere in the Diplomatic Quarter but I am not positive.
There’s a rink in a mall in Dammam… I can’t think of the name of the mall now. But is has special hours for women only. (It’s not in the middle of the mall like this one, where everyone can see.)
@daifuku:
Mantu: steamed meat dumplings. Introduced by Bukhari and Chinese immigrants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantu
Kurubu: or Krupuk. Prawn crackers. Introduced by Indonesian and Malay immigrants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prawn_crackers
Munaqabah-Yes, it is Al-Shatee Mall.
Saudi Jawa- I’ve had kurubu before, I just didn’t know the name. Those dumplings, I haven’t tried before though. Thnx.(wiki it yourself next time, idiot!)
It’s not fair, someone should put Rishoofa up on wiki.
I think she’s really cool trying anyway, even in abaya!
Of course she will never learn to skate even decently because you will have to bend your knees a bit, bent your back, lean forward and then really get going. If she did that her abaya would probably kill her.
And I can persoanlly testify to the dangers of long covering overcostumes: one got me crippled and into rehabillitation for a year!
A friend from UAE explained to me why girls are not allowed to do sports or anything physical: It’s to protect another Islamic idol, the Holy Hymen.
The Holy Hymen is far more important than health or excercise for girls,
Coolred, brillant comments as usual, enjoyed reading them. You are such an honest, true and strong woman!
aafke…ty…its the company I keep
First of all when I see women clad in hijaab doing things like skating, swimming etc I try to picture the female companions in the times of the prophet doing such things and er I really dont see it! They were mainly in their homes and spoke to men behind curtains. Reason i mention the female companions is because it is their way of life that were meant to follow.
Wearing Hijaab/being totally covered comes with etiquittes and manners such as talking quietly, walking in a non provocative manner etc etc so I just dont find it befitting for a woman to be skating around like that in a hijaab. The hijaab comes with responsibilty. Just because you are covered doesnt make it right for u to join in with the rest.
There are many ahadith about women and outdoors (clearly stating that when a woman leaves the house the shaitaan is always with her). A womans place is in the house and yes she can go out, she can work but there is a way to go about it and skating outside like that certainly isnt it!
The woman in hijaab looks very strange and alien amongst the people skating, god forbid if her abaya gets caught in her skates and she cracks her head (not fun)
@Dxb: So if she were wearing other modest clothing sans abaya and hijjab it would be acceptable for her to skate or are you specifically stating that muslim women should not skate?
What activities do you believe are appropriate outside of the home for a muslim woman?
She can do just about anything as long as she is segregated from men. Yes she can even skate if there are only women around!!!
Come to think of it a recent Fatwa from the Ulema has put a ban on female gyms. I think you also mentioned it in one of your previous posts. There is a long article that explains the Fatwa. If you want I can send it to you- in a nutshell it explains that a woman shouldnt be exposing her Awrah infront of other women (yes even muslim women). Im sure you know what the Awrah is for a muslim women. So…yes, certain activities that expose our Awrah amongst muslim women arent allowed.
In my previous post i was specifically talking about doing such activities in a mixed environment for COVERED muslim women. I was talking about the etiquettes and mannerisms that go hand in hand with covering up as a muslim woman.
As for the muslim women that are dressed modestly and are skating..How will i know if she is muslim if she isnt covered??? Image/first impressions are very important in Islam. Hence the reason why it is so important for Muslim women to cover up- its a part of our identity and it distinguishes us from other faiths
Applying the Sunnah (the way of the prophet and the salafs) doesnt oppress a women rather it liberates her. The only way for a Muslim to appreciate that is by gaining knowledge.
Hopefully I havent offended you x
Im quite sure men expose their awra to other men in gyms so why arent those being closed down in Saudi too?
And why is it imperative for Muslim women to show or prove that they are Muslim? Why must we have external symbolism displayed while Muslim men have no such requirements placed upon them?
Why do we need to be distiguished from other faiths…for what purpose exactly other than our own peace of mind.
About the Awrah of a male being exposed in gyms- Thats a question to put to the Ulema. Also I think it would be unusual for a Saudi man to expose his awrah infront of other men!?!?!
Its also important to remember that Muslim women cant remove their hijaab/abaya infront of non muslim women. As controversial as it may sound its a Fatwa that previous Ulema such as Shaikh Ibn Uthaymeen, Shaikh bin Baaz have given out. Im sure you know about Shaikh Ibn Uthaymeen. A highly regarded Saudi Scholar that was once the grand mufti of Saudi. He had said a womans awrah is from her wrists to her ankles (that also means loose outfits that dont expose your shape- so leggings are out). Try running on a treadmill in a long skirt! He also said a woman can not dress like a man and vice versa- so that means jogging bottoms are out!
If a woman is trying to lose weight- go for a walk! invest in a treadmill.
Another point- A mans awrah is from his belly button to just above his knee caps. So that would make it very difficult for him to expose his awrah unless hes in a communal changing room which i doubt they have in muslim countries….
I didnt say it was imperative for a muslim woman to prove herself as a muslim.
But i did say that covering up is important- its Fard for every believing woman to cover herself.
Btw muslim men do have external symbolims such as a beard that has to be the length of one handspan and his thobe/trousers have to be above his ankles. Yes i agree most men in saudi dont do that but these are requirements and infact they are Fard for a muslim man.
Can I just make myself clear- Yes the hijaab means barrier and were meant to be covered so men cant see. Yes we abide by the sunnah but whats more important is that we please our creator first and foremost. So having debates about the deen has actually been prohibited by the ulema. If you want to learn about islam without scrutinizing it pick up a book. Loads of books out there or start googling. If you still have questions about Islam I would be more than happy to give my email out to you. I dont think its right to openly discuss topics
on the deen in a public blog.
Identity plays an important part in Islam, internally and externally. I would explain this all to you but I think if you really want to learn about identity and the importance of distinguishing yourself from other faiths and even other sects in Islam then I would recommend an article by Shaikh al Albaani nasir ud deen al albani. He explains it beautifully- I dont think I have the wisdom to explain this to you!!!
Just reading the above comments.
I regret responding to coolred. She clearly doesnt have a clue about Islam- does she know the companions of the prophet werent born muslim!?!?! I think she needs to be kicked off this blog. She is swearing repeatedly, has no manners and obviously her hatred for islam stems from a failed marriage.
I was thinking yesterday, while on a boat in the Red Sea, that we were with a number of ladies…. Christian AND Muslim, just enjoying the day. We had so much fun laughing and talking about everything. A few swam, and a few stayed covered….some more conservative than others. And as we waved to the people on the shore, you could see some more covered than others.
We (Americans) come from a land of religious freedom and tolerance. Most of us know, from being forced to go to church, that in the end, people are going to believe and do whatever they want. You cannot force people to believe by forcing them to do things outwardly that they really don’t believe in.
Just let it go.
Er who is forcing who? What are you talking about ?!?!?
@ Miriam Mac, you are not an American in the US, you are American in KSA. Forget where you came from and remember where you are.
US values, just let it go…….
@Peter–let’s try your statement a different way–would you tell Saudis in the US to let their values go? Interestingly I spent the morning with a lovely Saudi couple the husband taught both his wife and his daughter to drive. He believes in women’s rights and encouraged his wife to open her own business and completely understands why his daughter who is studying abroad does not want to come home to Saudi even for vacation–so this lovely couple–both born and raised in Saudi who might not agree with the politcial system what do you suggest they do with their values which are just as valid as yours?
Dxb
Exactly who did I swear at might I ask? I will also say its you that doesnt have a clue about me. You have no idea what I know about Islam so keep your personal opinions to yourself…thank you.
@Sirius I encourage them to oppose homosexuality, gay mariage, sex before mariage, support Palestine, wear hijab and see how far they get in the open and tolerant society called US of A.
@Peter–it seems to me very hypocritical to tell other people to let their values go in Saudi and tell Saudis to keep practicing your values in the US. That is my point. I think your values are completely and totally screwed up but if your came to the states you would find lots of people (the republican party–and Sarah Palin) who totally support your values openly and politically. You are not very well informed apparently. Also I think it is much healthier mentally to stop obsessing about other peoples sexual preferences. Just clean up your mind and stop thinking about it. It’s none of your business.
@ Sirius please refer to the Holy Quran for information on homosexuality, it is my business as muslim.
@Peter–I am not a muslim therefore I am not in the least bit concerned with what the Holy Quran says. I was trying to be ironic by my none of your business statement because you have not yet answered my question as to why you feel it is valid for a muslim to uphold his/her values in the US but that someone from another culture must let go of his/her values in Saudi. I also pointed out there are born and raised Saudis who do not hold to your exact value system and in fact disagree with you and in fact would disagree with your interpretation of the Holy Quran as well. In BBC news today there is a group of muslim homosexuals who support the portrayal of a gay muslim on a British TV show. They apparently do not agree with you or your interpretation. I’m just sayin’……y’all don’t have to muss up your mind thinkin’ ’bout what other people are doing…….
@Peter–a wee thing–really—our different viewpoints when compared to the sorrows and sufferings and joys of the universe–I hope we can peacefully agree to disagree.
@ Sirius – Peace be upon you.
Dxb: ‘I dont think I have the wisdom to explain this to you!!!’
No kidding?!
Peter, I too would love to hear your answer to Sirius’s question about if a Saudi was in the US of A.
and ‘homosexuality, it is my business as muslim’
So, whatcha gonna do about it Peter? Maybe you and Dbx can get together and plot a plan to rid the world of heathens.
Lynn-
Keep your sarcasm to yourself- There are certain topics we cant discuss on blogs because we have narrow minded people like yourself that are ready to attack us at any god given opportunity. Thats why I said to refer to the articles by the Ulema, as they are afterall the ones we take knowledge from. They explain things beautifully and yes its true I dont have the sort of wisdom that they have. Nevertheless i know how to reply to a post without being insulting and negative, unlike yourself so i clearly have more wisdom than you
Like i said Islam shouldnt be debated on public blogs, forums etc.
Plot and plan to rid the world of heathens !
Think before you throw accusations my way. I have spoken about Islam and I havent personally attacked anyone for their religion etc etc
But yeah I hate homosexuals and so do millions of muslims across the globe-unfortunate but its true! yes they are the dogs of the hellfire. Like it or not its what we believe and its my point of view.
Dont come on this forum attacking Muslims…and i cant believe i’ve stooped down to your level and replied to your pathetic post. Now good riddance
Just a calm reminder that the ulema (not to mention the umma) is not in total agreement (to say the least) about many of the topics being so hotly debated here. Fatwa are fikh-specific, and there are differences of understanding/ acceptance even within those.
It would perhaps be more accurate and make for a better discussion to state that “Based on my adherence to x form of Islam (the one I do/ do not hold to be true for all Muslims), …”
Based on what I have read from reliable sources, the definitions of awrah and to whom one is obligated to respect it very widely, and some would be quite controversial for many/most Muslims.
‘I regret responding to coolred. She clearly doesnt have a clue about Islam- does she know the companions of the prophet werent born muslim!?!?! I think she needs to be kicked off this blog. She is swearing repeatedly, has no manners and obviously her hatred for islam stems from a failed marriage.’
‘yeah I hate homosexuals and so do millions of muslims across the globe-unfortunate but its true! yes they are the dogs of the hellfire. Like it or not its what we believe and its my point of view.’
‘Dont come on this forum attacking Muslims…’
What you do not see, in all your wisdom, is that it is you and Peter and the people that think like y’all that are the ones that are giving Islam a bad name and even making people leave Islam.
Like it or not its what I believe and its my point of view which can’t be any less valid than your own.
Dxb…
“Think before you throw accusations my way. I have spoken about Islam and I havent personally attacked anyone for their religion etc etc…”
I beg to differ….
“I regret responding to coolred. She clearly doesnt have a clue about Islam- .’…”
sounds like an accusation to me.
Chiara- When I spoke about Awrah i was talking about the Fatwa by Shaikh Ibn Uthaymeen rahimullah. He was highly regarded Scholar and the grand mufti of saudi and was a ‘wahabi” (hate the term but sadly thats what were called) the correct term is salafi and Salafiya is our school of thought.
Lynn and coolred- May Allah guide you both to the straight path. Like i said i regret bringing Islam into the debate. Please learn about Islam before you start scrutinizing it. And yes we hate homosexuals and always will lol. Didnt California just ban gay marriages ! So its not just us is it. Youre entitled to your opinion so carry on but dont bash our beliefs and i’ll say it again ‘DONT ATTACK MUSLIMS ON THIS BLOG’
Coolred you were openly insulting the abaya and muslims- calling them peadophiles etc and yes u swore on several occasions. Scroll up..
you also made statements such as arabs believe so and so arent muslims..you have no right and neither does anyone else to claim who is muslim and who isnt. You’ve had a bad exprience..deal with it. Dont come here taking all your frustrations out on us.
Its not me that gives muslims a bad name but it brings to light the fact that its narrowminded people like yourself that will always have a problem with our beliefs and will be ready any opportunity to attack us. End of…
Hate getting sucked into this stuff..all i’ll say is May Allah open up your hearts to the deen.
Dxb–Thank you for your clarification, and specificity. That is, as you know, one interpretation (not debating its veracity or your belief) and there others (not claiming veracity or superiority for them), but it does help to better understand your comment. Thanks again.
@Dxb..I’m sorry you “hate” homosexuals etc etc etc. The God I would choose to believe in has nothing to do with hate. I believe in love, compassion and forgiveness. Hate is a strong word and in my mind is a short step from intolerance and all the crimes against humanity that attend it. I also did not realize that you were the owner of this blog and could order us about in large letters. I will pray that God in endless wisdom, kindness love and compassion for all creatures (great and small) will forgive you your hate-filled heart. Peace be upon you. Siriusly.
Going back to the subject, majority-Muslim countries in my recollection have never had a representation in international figure skating competitions. However, little Miss Tugba Karademir in 2006 became the first Turkish and first Muslim female figure skater to compete in the Olympic Games. Tugba’s international results are quite modest (she’s something like top 25 depending on the ranking system) yet I hear she’s very popular in her home country and an inspiration to other athletes. Her jumping skills are meh but she’s nice to watch. She lives and trains in Canada.
There are skating associations in other Muslim-majority countries (Skyrink Jakarta and Skating Association of Pakistan) but they are not members of ISU (international skating union) yet.
And obviously many athletes represent Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and other FSU majority-Muslim republics in international skating events but it is fair to say that these countries are still very much viewed as Russian satellites by ISU judges. Typically, a boy or girl who cannot make through the ranks of megacompetitive Russian skating federation will go to Azeri or Kazakh federation and request to be sponsored. Depending on their talent and likelihood of winning, they may become an “Azeri” skater and a citizenship may even be thrown their way. Yes, Miss Kristin Fraser, for instance, is an Azeri ice dancer, whee! Good for her.
You will also be tickled to know that the Russian/FSU rhythmic gymnastics team (a perennial Olympic champion) has been and remains to a large degree dominated by female athletes of Tatar and Kazakh (traditionally Muslim…in their own way) ethnic backgrounds (Aliya Yussupova, Alina Kabayeva, Lyaisan Utiasheva, Aliya Garayeva) who oddly enough said in interviews that their “eastern” background helps them to present a more sinuous, feminine image in their performances. Good for the ladies!
@NN–uplifting and interesting. And a good reminder–I was actually waiting for American Bedu to tell us we were off the rink and order us to skate on over to the debate page!
@NN — thank you for the info on muslim female skaters…after writing the post, I did get to wondering!
@Dxb — I am curious…you mentioned in an earlier comment that muslim women should not remove their hijjab if in a group with non-muslim women. I’m very surprised to hear that. I have been in so many mixed groups of women (muslim and non-muslim) where all the women would remove their hijjabs. And while I understand for you that wearing the hijjab identifies a woman as muslim, I know so many muslim women who have chosen not to cover their head.
@coolred, Lynn, Peter, Sirius et al: I always appreciate and value your point of views even if at times I may simply choose to agree to disagree.
Dxb..
.I did not call Muslims pedophiles…I called my exhusband a pedophile..because that is what he is. And hes muslim…so…whatever. And I have never insulted Muslim women for wearing the abaya…I just expressed my irritation at those that force it upon women , judge them over it and call it religous…there is a difference. And all my cursing, as you put it, was not aimed at anyone specifically…just let my emotions get the best of me sometimes…Im human.
I might add that since I have been Muslim for over half my life…I do believe I have the right to critisize it or have an opinion about it…whether you agree with it or not. Thats the wonderful thing about opinions…everyone has one…and I accept yours even if I dont agree with it…would be nice if you were so generous with other peoples as well. You might not agree with everyone here but you certainly dont have to be so harsh about it. We are all friendly folks here for the most part.
American Bedu…Absolutely….disagreeing makes for a spicier and more colorful post and comment section. How boring if we all agreed…lol. Not likely to happen but miracles do hit now and then.
@Miriam Mac “We (Americans) come from a land of religious freedom and tolerancem Mac ”
WHY Obama did not release hundreds of pictures of torture???
You should be ASHAMED saying this, not having ANY insight in the suffering Americans impose on muslims in Iraq, Afganistan and elsewhere. We now know US soldiers rape muslim women and abuse muslim women in the countries they conquer.
My reading on awrah came up with a diversity of recognized interpretations of what is considered, “private parts” especially diverse for women, in what places, contexts (praying salah, not), with whom (mahrem, non-mahrem, muslim non-muslim, same gender, opposite gender) that included the permissibility (but not recommendation) of a woman not covering her breasts when with mahrem men.
This is based on Quran 024.031
YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband’s fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
Of course, where there is concern about desire, or it is not customary, then this is not permissible.
A skating costume is too short unless it covers the knees, and too revealing unless it covers back and front from from below the navel, and the legs above the knee are not revealed during any moves.
American Bedu- Its the school of thought (salafiya)I follow that states that a muslim woman must not remove her hijaab infront of non muslims. The Fatwa comes from the likes of the kibaar al ulema ie shaikh bin baaz rahimullah, shaikh ibn uthaymeen. These are names that all Saudi’s are familiar with. Yes im sure they are thousands of muslims that dont wear hijaab. I am not one to judge them and tell them what to do. They will go in their own grave i will go in mine
InshaAllah if Allah wills they will cover up one day…
Coolred- I apologise for my harshness coolred…you were being emotional and you are only human. On another note i dont think any muslim should be criticizing Islam. Islam is a complete religion in everyway. I agree everyone has opinions but i try not to base my posts on my opinions rather i try to explain things according to the Sunnah. Afterall Islam is a way of life! Not everyones going to agree but I just expect the expats in Saudi to atleast have abit of respect.
Sirius- did you say the god you would choose?? There is only one god!
Dxb: ‘There is only one god!’
Again, YOUR opinion. But you are entitled to it.
Why do the narrow minded people like Dxb always assume that just because someone does not agree with them that that person does not have as much knowledge as them when it could very well be that the person they are accusing actually has MORE knowledge?
“Judge not lest ye be judged”
Interesting turn this blog has taken. I do not like the word ‘hat” and to hate someone that you don’t know is rather bizarre.
I knew of a few Saudi male homosexuals and they certainly exist in the Muslim world. And to stay on topic .. I’m sure some of them also skate.
Lynn- Your making me laugh lol…when did I say I have the most knowledge???
And like it or not there is only one God, its not my opinion its a FACT…the jews and christians agree with us on this one. I honestly dont know what kind of God you follow but their your beliefs and to be frank i dont really care.
Wendy- Reason i detest homo’s is because they are hated by Allah. I dont need to know a homo, thank you. If a muslim is a homo..well to each their own.
DXB,
And you have heard it directly from Allah that he hates homosexuals. Good for you! You do have connections, eh? heard it straight from Allah himself. Hmmm…. Those who talk and hear directly from God, Allah are indeed special people!
Well, enjoy your thoughts, your life, your beliefs. We’re all entitled to our own thought and beliefs and we have to live with them. Hate, eh? Well, I pity you and all of you who “hate”.
As this is a blog for expats to living in KSA and others having affinity with KSA I think it would be a sign of respect for the country and it’s people you (temporary or not) adopted, not to call into question the fundamentals of Islam.
There are other, less respectuous, forums dealing with this.
An expat in a muslim country (in particular KSA) shall not question the existence of God, the fact there is only a single God , the fact that Muhammad PBUH is his Messenger and the fact that the Holy Quran is the word of God.
If you question these facts ( not theories) you are better off in another part of the world (for yourself and for the people around you)
Unbelievable but so true and common that wearing hijab causes all this irritation on Islam. We travel quite a bit and encounter sometimes violent verbal agression on my wifes hijab. Of course the anger is not directed to the hijab nor my wife personally but Islam. A fine example you find here when you scoll up.
Wendy- I dont know if your a muslim but from the above post you clearly have been misinformed! Wow im debating with an ignorant that doesnt have a clue about Islam lol and claims that i directly speak with god…bizarre
Do you not know about the people of Lut and how Allah destroyed them??? Ring a bell?? Clearly it doesnt !
Before you start debating about Allah with me perhaps pick up the Quraan. And making comments like the ones you made above is a mockery to our deen. Dont know if your an expat ..but if you are an expat im disappointed by your ignorance and your lack of understanding- go back home honey….Not replying to your posts anymore- unless you manage to read the Quraan
@Peter–then I hope you will (as you expect others to do in Saudi) respect the values and customs of the countries you visit. Which of course means, in a Christian country to respect those values. And none of what you state are facts. They are beliefs. There is a huge difference. And of course we should respect the beliefs of others.
@Dxb–and as well, before you discuss Christianity or any other religion I would certainly hope that you read the Bible cover to cover. You seem to be a very angry person bringing up “hate” and “destroying”. You do realize that Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the same God, don’t you?
Sirius- Muslims are encouraged to learn and respect all faiths. I actually have the bible at home and have lots material regarding christianty, hinduism (the sanskrit), judaisim etc Er yeah we all believe in the same God, i mentioned that once already, didnt i?!?!
Sirius im not angry look >
lol
I just get annoyed when people debate about islam without knowledge.
Like when someone claims i must be a prophet…you have to admit thats bizarre right?
And about the destroying and hating..yes yes they are angry words but dont take them out of context dear.
‘Hating’ something for the sake of Allah- such as homos (lol), alcohol, pigs, gambling, adultery etc…
Yes Allah ‘Destryoed’ the people of Lut because of their homosexual acts, by drowning them. Its what we believe. Btw Lut was a Messenger from Allah.
Pick my comments apart….its ok
May Allah guide you.
@Dxb- Sorry we just have to disagree. Hating and destroying for the sake of God just creeps me out. God is about love and compassion and forgiveness. Anything can be twisted in the name of God. I think Americans (especially since 9/11) are pretty sensitive to religious justifications of hate. And, of course, you have the right to your opinion, and I mine. We come from very different cultures and although the universe is large and eternity long, our planet is small and our time here is short–peaceful, tolerant compassionate coexistence seems to be the hopeful way to go.
PS Spending time and energy hating pigs–what a waste–hmm perhaps spending time and energy loving God’s creations might be a better way to a compassionate heart.
I don’t think at all that everybody has a ”right to their own opinions”, not if they as as idiotic and misogynist as Dxb’s ….
I think we should get rid of creeps like Dxb and Peter. That would be a really worthwhile Jihad for a change…
“We travel quite a bit and encounter sometimes violent verbal agression on my wifes hijab. Of course the anger is not directed to the hijab nor my wife personally but Islam. A fine example you find here when you scoll up..”
Funny enough…over here in the “Muslim” world that aggression is directed at the woman…not Islam. Ever heard of honor killings etc? Many of those are done simply because the female refused to wear hijab…so the man did “Gods work” by punishing her for her crime. So yes…people get irritated over hijab…very irritated. Some people are moved to kill over it…and generally those people are other Muslims.
Dxb…People of Lut were punished with fire from the sky and the earth shaking and then turned upside down…Im pretty sure the drowning was reserved for the people of Noah’s time. Btw…the people of Lut were punished not merely for homosexual acts but for rape…the men of that town were forcibly raping anything and everything…including wanting to rape the angels that visited Lut. They didnt want gay sex from the angels…they wanted to rape them. Rape is forbidden and punishable (before the rapists were punished…now days in the Muslim world the victim is punished)…so no use using the story of Lut as an example because Muslims certainly do not follow that example when dealing with sexual crimes anymore.
Hahaha….the last bit made me laugh aloud…
I know your American so sentences probably take longer for you to digest.haha but when i said i hate pigs its not because they eat their own feaces its because pork is haraam (forbidden) for muslims. Im not spending time and energy hating pigs! I’ve been spending time and energy replying to posts filled with hate and anger towards Islam (ahem mainly from Americans).
I agree our time here is short. In an ideal world it would be peaceful tolerant etc but it isnt, is it? Muslims being killed and oppressed everywhere, no?
Our purpose in this life is to be obedient to our creator. End of!
@Dxb–Ok ok, hate and justification of hate seem to be your thing. I get it. Hate, hate hate, and more hate. Have a nice (hate-filled life). Peace be upon the rest of us.
Aafke- Thats abit agressive isnt it? Jihad of the nafs (soul) is the most honourable of jihads..not killing someone because you dont agree with them. You must be American
If you wish to contact me call the Mutawwa office in..just kidding…
Coolred- My bad…The people of Lut had gone through a number of punishments from Allah and I didnt name them all but they were infact drowned aswell. They resided in Jordan- where we have the deadsea now.
Gay sex from angels??? you do know when Angels come down on earth they come in a form of a man…so clearly they were homos.
Btw’The muslim world’ is a very general term, no? And your wrong, you know about Mukhtar Mai in the Asian subcontinent? She was gang raped, it was a big story around the world. She even became a national hero.
Im offically out- not wasting my time with narrow minded fools.. bye bye peeps
@ Aafke, ongelofelijk dat een meisje dat in abaya schaatst u zulke dingen laat zeggen. Maar nu ik op uw blog heb gekeken begrijp ik het. U bent hier om Islam belachelijk te maken.
@Aafke, unbelievable that a girl skating in abaya make you says stuff like this. But I looked at your blog and understand that you are here to ridicule Islam.
http://clouddragon.wordpress.com/danish-delights/
@ Bedu, some visitors on this blog have a hidden (or not so hidden) agenda to insult Islam or religion in general. What is better than looking for a Saudi related blog to do so.
I am loving husband and father, active in the community and religious, not someone people around me call a “creep”.
The way Sirius and Aafke contribute to this blog is by making personal comments. The beauty of your blog has been so far that exchanges were full of respect and on the substance, without personal “attacks”.
@Chiara I admire the well balanced way to contribute to this blog. We can all take an example.
Oh nice…completely blew off my “honor killing” statement and bring up ONE case in which the woman actually got into the media spotlight and therefore got some justice in some form. Yeah…you got me there.
And yes, Im well aware that angels came down in the form of man…but still…the people of Lut were rapists…as they were busy raping women as well…so it wasnt solely based on gay sex (as gay sex is consensual) but rape (one party is forcibly subjecting another party to subdue sexually).
Im wondering between you and Peter…who exactly here is attacking Islam…most of the comments are pointed at Muslims and their practice of Islam…big difference.
And speak for yourself when it comes to being “narrow minded”…my only reply is…it takes one to no one…nah nah nah.
@Peter–did you carefully read all my responses to Dxb? Did you carefully read Dxb comments ?
Peace be upon you.
Have you not read my contributions to other posts? I am not against Islam and never have been as long as it is practiced by compassionate peaceful kind people. I completely don’t understand why you feel that if I don’t agree with Islam as interpreted by fundamentalists in some cases or extremists in others that I am “against” Islam. I’m disappointed. I thought you and I had agreed to disagree.
Let us close this thead as it has nothing to do with this courageous girl skating and as Sirius said Agree to Disagree.
Take away message: you all notice how much underlying agression comes to the surface when some of you simply see a clearly identified and righteous muslimah minding her own business.
@ Sirius – we indeed agreed to disagree, so I will no longer react to your misguided comments and interpretations.
Dxb, when you assume that a person is only making a statement or holding an opinion because of their lack of knowledge and then you go on to correct them, you ARE assuming that you have more knowledge than them (on that subject anyway).
For example you say : ‘I just get annoyed when people debate about islam without knowledge.’
Why do you assume that they do not have knowledge? Because they do not believe the same as you?
As far as this statement of yours : ‘…Muslims being killed and oppressed everywhere, no?’
If you look very closely you might find that those Muslims being killed and oppressed everywhere, well, they are being killed and oppressed by other Muslims! THAT is a fact that you need to be well aware of. By the way, you and Peter might want to look up the definition of the word FACT.
@Peter : ‘…when some of you simply see a clearly identified and righteous muslimah minding her own business.’
And how do you know she is a ‘righteous muslimah’? Do you know her personally? Shoot, as a matter of fact, she might not even be a muslimah. Maybe she is being forced to dress that way by her muslim husband.
And I think that Coolred said it best when she said:
‘And speak for yourself when it comes to being “narrow minded”…my only reply is…it takes one to no one…nah nah nah.’
Wendy–yes, according to reliable international studies 3-5% of men are either homosexual or bisexual–those who are residing in Canada would be well advised to learn to skate to have a sociable, healthy way to enjoy the winter months.
Peter–thank you for your kind words about me. I am sorry that your wife is publicly berated for covering which must also put you in a very difficult position, or are people too cowardly to do so when you are present? That would, indeed, put a different spin on wanting to be accompanied when out and about.
Dxb–the Islamic injunction against homosexuality is against acting on the desires (ie behaviour) rather than particularly on the orientation. Judeo-Christianity, on the other hand, condemns the orientation as well as the behaviour. So a Muslim may “hate” homosexual behaviours without hating the homosexual person (not all act on their orientation).
@Chiara–I just think “hate” is not a word to be tossed around lightly in the same sentence as religion. And although a strict fundamentalist Judeo-Christian interpretation might disprove of homosexuals–there are many many Christians/Jews and churches/synagogues who take an enlightened, tolerant and compassionate viewpoint (more in line with the professional medical stance in the US) of the issues. There is simply not one interpretation of Christianity. There are many. Really does the world need the word “hate” and all that it implies?
Sirius–I agree that the word “hate” is inappropriate and dangerous, I was reprising it (in quotes) to respond to Dxb’s comment which used it. And you are correct, I was referring to the fundamentalist stance of each of the Abrahamic faiths.
My own personal and professional stances are in line with the contemporary medical one (or ones as the case may be).
Thanks for the opportunity to clarify, I realize on rereading that there may have been the potential for misinterpretation. Thanks again.
Sirius, No we don’t need wither the word ”Hate” nor the sentiment itself.
It seems to me all this repression of rights and freedoms have their origins in hate, and those who practise repression are not doing God’s work, but the Devils.
Lynn, you are right: there’s no telling from somebodies mode of dress how honest, spiritual or ”righteous” they are.
Moreover, you see often enough that very extreme covering hides a superficial faith. How people dress means nothing at all, and you can’t base an evaluation of their personality on it.
Only the most silly, superficial and stupid people do so.
@Aafke – can you comment please on the insulting cartoons for Muslims you produced to honor the “Danish cartoons”?
Peter, are you referring to the ”Danish Delights” I draw to please and amuse my muslim friends? They are not insulting to average muslims, they are insulting to idiot muslims only.
Now I can imagine you being insulted by them of course, so I suggest you avoid further painful experiences and not visit my blog again.
Have you read my disclaimer?
*Disclaimer: You visit Clouddragon at your own risk. If you have no sense of humour, serious braindamage may result.*
And congratulations to Malaysia, the world’s first Muslim-majority country to become a provisional member of the International Figure Skating Union.
http://www.isam.my/isudownload/MalaysiaISUMembers.pdf
I understand they have a lovely junior skater called Rachel Ng. With luck and lack of injury, we might see her in competition some time.
NN – that is exciting news indeed!
I don’t see what hte problem is and am wondering why you, living in Saudi Arabia, want to exploit the culture you’re living in. I wear complete hijab and am sick and tired of non-Muslims who take my picture, ridicule me or pity me, no matter where I live, the west or east.
Get over yourselves–western ideals are not the ‘norm’ and yes, us Muslim women do many things in our hijabs–more than you could EVER imagine!
I think this is not in Saudi Arabia , which does not mean that such a thing is not existing , But I can’t remember any place or mall in Saudi Arabia looks like this.. even the people playing on the skating ground look very different from those who live in Saudi Arabia
I think the blogger should rely on another more authentic clip.
I am a Saudi woman to wear the abaya and happy I do not see they restrict the freedom
and am thanks god because am muslim iam happy in my live
I am a saudi girl and I’m happy to wear the abaya, I do not see they restrict the freedom
I thank God because I am a Muslim woman so I’m happy in my life