While many may find that an aspect of one religion fits their views as well as an aspect of another religion also fits, can one really mix religions? As this article illustrates, one female minister chose to practice both Islam and Christianity….until she was “defrocked.” Yes, her Christian church, the Episcopal Church, rejected her religious choice and practices and told her she would have to make a choice between the two faiths she was openly practicing. The Imam however in the location where this female muslim minister goes and prays endorses her choice to continue to practice both religions, citing that she brings out the best in both.
It is an interesting concept indeed if one were to be allowed or even encouraged to take aspects of different faiths, apply them, mix them and practice them. I could see some very interesting hybrid faiths emerging for sure. But while one can speculate, I don’t think it is feasible to mix and match faiths and am surprised to see that a formerly ordained minister had chosen to attempt to do so. To me, this just sends messages of confusion to her followers. I find it surprising as well that an Imam would also be supportive of her practice to follow two differing faiths at the same time.
The article makes an interesting read and worth having a discussion on this topic.
Filed under: culture, gender, islam, religion, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture Tagged: | America, culture, gender, gender issues, islam, KSA, religion, Saudi, Saudi culture
I wrote a about this too. I think the Muslim community will work very hard on her to get her to acquiesce any remnant of her Christian identity. Personally, I don’t see how Islamic Tawheed/Christian Trinitycan reside in the same sphere (in this case the same brain), but I certainly hope that Muslims will refrain from attacking her. Something tells me she is going to have a very rough road ahead. My prayers for strength are with her.
There is a religion called Unitarian Universalist that has roots among the Christian/Judaic tradition, except they do not believe in the Trinity, there is One God, and all good people receive salvation. Many of the followers run the gamut of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, wiccan, etc. They have principles to abide by, which are universal in nature. The God can be a life force, energy, a being, however, you see “it”.
Many great thinkers have embraced this concept. To me, it seems the way “religion” should be headed. People congregating for sense of community, non-exclusive, doing good for others and the planet. The path is stressed, the learning is stressed, and everyone acknowledges that there is no “one” way.
Their symbol is a chalice with a flame, which is a symbol of the spirit of oneness and community and learning.
I was amazed when I attended some services…
oops universalism
She is a courageous trail-blazer. I’ve often thought (hoped?) that society would evolve sufficiently to see the unity in all paths, and permit people to do exactly as this woman has done.
Several years ago, I discussed the subject with a Catholic nun. She knew I practiced islam, but that I wished to combine it with the elements of Chirstianity that I had appreciated (a wish I have never enacted).
She suggested that I regard Christianity from its central message, which is of new life, rebirth, and resurrection. The story of Jesus and his resurrection might be accepted on a symbolic level, not literal.
The symbolism, more than the literal veracity of the Christian teachings, could well form its true message and appeal. From this perspective, the two religions are compatible, at least theoretically.
I wonder about how much this lady knows about Islam. While it is possible to imagine a version of Islam that didn’t take the Koran literally, that isn’t Islam as it is practiced today. Episcopalians still prays to Jesus. Here is a section from the 1979 book of common prayer (p 40)
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/mp1.pdf
“Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Most Muslims would not accept that as something they could pray as Muslims. Most Christians could not accept the Muslim idea that Muhammed is the final prophet. How can she have spoken the Muslim conversion prayer without understanding its meaning.
I am not arguing that Christianity is better than Islam, simply that the ideas are incompatible. I cannot see how a person who was trained in Christian theology wouldn’t understand the important differences. I think she is simply unwilling to accept the truth and leave her old life.
I dont think it is possible. There are certain things, such as the unity of God that Jews and Muslims believe in, that just dont match up with modern Christianity.
I’d have a much better time with this woman’s choice if it was between Islam and Judaism. These are two religious that are very closely related. The differences in practice and belief are kind of minor.
Trinitarian Christianity and Islam/Judaism are very different.
The two religions are compatible in theory, and even in practice, as others have pointed out, but institutions have more difficulty with this.
The main problem here seems to be the woman thinking she could be an official “licenced” representative of Christianity, while professing to be a Muslim. In that sense the Episcopal Church had no choice but to defrock her as an officially sanctioned minister of their faith.
I agree that she may be at a stage in her life where she does not yet have the psychological ability to choose, or to feel she is rejecting earlier beliefs and a lifetime of ministry.
Without wishing to minimize her sincerity, nor offend Muslims, she could have found excellent Christian models of chanting and humility. Obviously, although that was her starting point, she ended up elsewhere.
A Christian cannot be Muslim at the same time (and the other way around).
We believe that one can find salvation through Christ ALONE (Jesus said Himself : . John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.–) Which is quite exclusive!
Muslim obviously do not believe that.
Jesus also said: “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.”
Matt. 6:24. Also exclusive.
There is so many teachings that clash between both faiths it’s ridiculous to think that somebody can mix them “healthily”.
She is very confuse….As this Catholic “nun” ….
Some years ago I heard an interview with Karen Armstrong in which we wondered why some religions demand perfect belief (eg: Christianity, Judaism, Islam) and others (eg:Hinduism, Buddhism) seem to get along fine without it. If the purpose of religion is to get us to behave properly why is it necessary that we all agree on the nature of God?
While one can see that mainstream Protestantism is slowly moving to lessen the importance of doctrine, that era hasn’t arrived. Even Catholicism has aspects of this. I don’t see any real move in Islam in this direction.
As I mentioned on another blog that had this topic…Im wondering why its up to others to declare what we should believe just because we give ourselves certain titles…she is comfortable with her mixing of religions so leave her to it…how is it hurting anyone else?
If we mixed up religious beliefs a little more maybe there would less of a “us vs them” mentality or “others” type of thinking…just a thought.
In other words…if the lines drawn between religions were more blurry and less solid…maybe that would be better for all concerned…again…just a thought.
On the surface, it would sound like there would be huge incompatibility issues, but this could work. It all depends on people finding the common ground between religions (and there are lots if you boil religions down to their basic elements), as well as how people interpret holy scripture. Call me blasphemous or accuse me of ‘cherry-picking’ elements of religions if you want, but while I was raised as a Christian and that’s probably what I would write down on a census, there are elements of other belief systems I admire and take into consideration. I do not want to make this turn into a ‘creation vs. evolution’ debate, but there are similarities here if you think about it – each side of this debate finds the other side beliefs incompatible with their own. Myself, on the other hand, have no problem with believing in God and also agreeing with the theory of evolution, as I interpret Biblical scripture differently than others. Perhaps it is the same with those who practice more than one faith?
Wow, interesting article indeed!
Christians (that I know) believe Jesus is the Savior of the world and it’s not our works that save us, but God. Good works are a RESULT OF salvation.
From what I understand of most Muslims, their good works earn them favor in God’s eyes so they will – hopefully – be offered salvation by God’s mercy.
One relies on good works while the other relies on God’s mercy and grace.
It’s not by good works that we have done, but because of His mercy that He saved us. So it’s all about GOD … we are not capable of producing works pleasing to Him without His help.
So it seems this woman wants the “best” of both worlds. In the end, what does this mean?
Great discussion….enjoyed it.
Susanne said, “It’s not by good works that we have done, but because of His mercy that He saved us.”
Who amongs us, Muslim or Christian, can challenge this statement from the opposite side?
Who amongst the Christians will say (admit?) that the Trinity calls for belief in three gods, not just One?
Who amongst the Muslims will say that (admit?) Christians are not “people of the book.”?
Similarities– indeed, points of convergence– abound, if we just look.
Though the two practices are obviously not compatible at this time in history, who amongs us knows what might evolve religiously in the next century?
Religion, after all, is man-made.
One that that isn’t mentioned in this story is how different the culture of Islam is from the culture of Episcopalianism. For example Arabic has a special place in Islam, translations of the Koran are frowned upon if they don’t have the Arabic alongside them. One of the fundamental ideas of the Reformation was the desire the scripture and prayer should be in the local language. The Episcopal church didn’t come directly from the reformation but that church did adopt the idea that scripture and liturgy should be understandable by the people.
What I find odd is that a woman who felt drawn to the ministry can move to a religion in which she could not be a prayer leader. She really needs to see a psychiatrist.
Hello susanne430, Catholics and Orthodox accept the idea the good works can merit grace (and I don’t want to get into the Catholics are not Christians debate here).
Abu Sinan–except for the strict monotheism of Judaism/Islam and the trinitarian monotheism of most of Christianity past and present, Judaism and Islam do have more than just minor differences: the non-virgin/virgin birth of Jesus, Jesus as a false/true prophet, the no coming/ second coming of Jesus, Islam and Christianity as false Abrahamic religions/Judaism and Christianity as Abrahamic though misguided religions, etc.
Within each of Judaism, Christianity and Islam (in chronological order of founding) the balance of predestination (fate), belief, good deeds, and forgiveness in salvation varies over time and sect.
Karen Armstrong, for all her popular acclaim, especially post 9/11, describes herself as an ex-nun “freelance monotheist” and “amateur theologian”. Others, including Jewish scholars, are concerned about her revisionist history and theology.
Let me correct myself. The Orthodox do not follow the good works merit grace idea of the Catholics (though they believe in good works and things like alms giving and fasting).
Chiara,
The main, unaltering point of Islam and Judaism is absolute monotheism, that is the begining and end.
There are differences, sure, but even historically we see that the history between the Jews and the Muslims has been a good one, and I think it is partially based on this shared opinion about God.
The same cannot be said for Christians and their relationship with Jews or Muslims.
Emma,
As a Muslim, I have no issue with what you quoted. It is just that we understand it differently. When Jesus said there is no way to God but through him, I see that as Jesus making a distinction between himself and God, which then means Jesus isnt God. Think about it, if Jesus was God, then if you were with him you’d automatically be with God, rather than having to follow one part of the same being, to be with the other part of the same being. Doesnt make sense.
I also see a prophet telling his followers, that if you dont follow his example, you wont go to heaven. It is the same message Mohammed gave, and as a Muslim, I dont think either one were claiming to be God.
In the New Testament there are several verses where Jesus is asked something, but says he doesnt know, only God does, making a clear distinction in his own words, between himself and God.
Marahm
“Who amongst the Christians will say (admit?) that the Trinity calls for belief in three gods, not just One?”
As a Muslim, who used to be Christian, I never said that the trinity called for woshipping three Gods, rather it seperated God into different and distinct portions.
You dont have to divide God into three different Gods to stray from monotheism, dividing God up into three different portions is more than enough to do that.
Someone wrote “It’s not by good works that we have done, but because of His mercy that He saved us.”
I certainly will argue against God’s grace being the only thing that defines whether or not we go to heaven. This is one of the major issues I had with Christianity, the idea that someone like Jeffrey Dahmer could sak for forgiveness from God a minute before he dies and somehow there is no price to be paid for what he did in life.
Sure, I believe in God’s grace, I also believe that everyone has to pay for what they have done in life and that on the last day we will be held to account for all of the good things and bad things we have done.
This idea that all we have to do is ask for forgiveness and everything is washed away is a major problem in the Christian church today. I dont know how many times I have heard sinning and bad behavior justified because of “the blood of Jesus” will make everything right in the end.
The idea that as long as you ask for forgiveness everything is forgotten is a major justification for basically doing whatever you want, and I have seen it first hand at the various churches I attended as a child, and from Christians I have known as an adult.
If you think, for a fact, that you will never be held to account for anything as long as you ask for forgiveness, then there is really nothing motivating you to change your behavior.
I’m in agreement with you! An ordained minister shouldn’t practice two religions. It is just too confusing for followers.
In my opinion, there are some religions that could possibly be combined, but most can’t. And it’s usually not a great idea. Especially two religions that have such fundamental differences as Christianity and Islam.
Abu Sinan–
You are very clear about “absolute monotheism” being the beginning and ending of any discussion about the 3 Abrahamic faiths, but others, including Muslims, are not.
With all due respect to everyone’s faith beliefs, the preoccupation with trinitarianism seems to be greater among converts and proselytisers than other Muslims who seem better able to recall and practice Surah 109 “Al Kafiroon” (yes, Disbelievers as in Atheists or Polytheists, but often extended to relations with People of the Book).
Thinking that trinitarian Christians are polytheistic or believe in 3 Gods/gods is an error of the same order of magnitude as thinking that Muslims are “Mohammedans” who worship the Prophet Mohamed as God incarnate.
That said, many Christians are more concerned with Jesus as an earthly prophet/teacher or “the historical Jesus” than they are with him as the “Son of God”, and so are closer to the concept of the Prophet Isa than some others. Similarly, Roman Catholics seem to be able to roll with the “Vatican punches”: limbo/no limbo, fish/no fish, fast-tracking sainthood, etc. with their faith, if not their piety, intact.
Earthly relations among and within the 3 Abrahamic faiths historically have had more to do with politics, economics, power, and territoriality (of people and places) than theology.
I like what Mariam posted. Ihave attended Unitarian meetings and find the gatherings quite spiritual and freeing.
I have lived part of life in Muslim countries, so I enjoy some the aspects, such as fasting during Ramadan.
Jacee–I agree that both Mariam and Marahm have demonstrated how to legitimately emphasize and build on points of common belief.
Chiara,
I think you are mistaken if you think that monotheism is something that only is highly regarded for converts, you are wrong. Heck, even some of the idiot jihadis out there name their groups over the subjection.
It is the begining and end for Islam and Judaism, without it everything else is meaningless.
There are some things that are just plain different and there is no reconciling over. I can certainly agree that everyone has their right to believe what they want, at the same time it doesnt mean that even in the spirit of building commonality between the faiths that I need to downplay the differences.
Besides, we already have the conversation here and it was explained that many, probably most Muslims, do not think any person who believes Jesus is the Son of God is a “Person of the Book”. Such a polytheist idea certainly places someone outside the bounds of “the people of the book”.
So I have no issue with Surah 109, although your idea of exactly who is being talked about in this verse would differ from most Muslims.
Life of Pi by Yann Martel.
A Christian, a Muslim and a Hindu; it’s an interesting read. (3 days off in his week
he needs Judaism to make it to 4 
Wouldnt it be nice if all us “religious” folk could just stand back and admire her for her dedicated search for the truth and apparent ability to find a happy medium….instead of standing back…pointing fingers..and just declaring how wrong or misguided she is.
Seems like “finding God” is the what most religions are about…why does it matter so damn much exactly how we find Him and what we call ourselves while we do the searching?
Abu Sinan
As I said above, converts (including those in the blogosphere) and proselytizers (including holy war style jihadis), seem to me more preoccupied with trinitarianism, than any born Muslim from whatever part of the Islamic world that I have ever had a conversation with, including those who took it upon themselves to teach me further and from whom I learned how to interpret Surah 109.
As I have said, and repeat, I respect others’ faith practices, but rather than thinking the explanations on a previous thread by yourself and others about the supposedly unitarian Christians of the time of the Prophet/Revelation constitute the Truth, I think these statements of “fact” represent belief systems within Islam.
Lucky for me, real life Muslims of my acquaintance, including ones from various countries. and the official ones in various other countries, consider that my Roman Catholic baptismal certificate makes me a Daughter of the Book, and thus Islamically married with all that implies for other legal considerations.
Khalid–more reasons for me to finally read the Life of Pi, and more ammunition for my argument for instituting at the very least the 3-day Abrahamic weekend!
Nope.
Excellent idea! 6 different religions a day, and the 7th I´m free.
Oh no! On the seventh I am going to be an atheist!
Jerry M, that’s why I qualified it “Christians (that I know).” I wasn’t speaking for Catholics or Orthodox believers.
Abu Sinan,
as a Christian, I heartily agree with what you wrote about the misused concept of grace in some Christian churches. The “Once Saved, Always Saved” blahblah goes against what Jesus said Himself: ” Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: …. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand…”Matt.7
It saddene me to see so many “Christians” to adhere to this “cheap” (and dangerous indeed) grace theology.
Salvation is grace+work! (faith without work is dead, said James2:20)
It is interesting that some folks on this thread see Christians as soo far off of the monotheistic track. I don’t think any Christians have any doubt that they are monotheistic. Rather, they (we) believe that God is everywhere at all times and that God being all powerful, he can take whatever form he wants to, the main forms being that of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit…think of God as an omnipresent shapeshifter, rather than three distinct things. Who are we to say that God could not have a son? Or that there is anything God cannot do? If God could create the universe, surely there are no limits to God’s power.
Back to the actual topic at hand – no, en masse, I do not think it is possible for people to practice several different religions. For instance, taken literally Christianity should be a totally pacifist religion. Judaism and Islam are not pacifist in the least. Also, Judaism and Islam would never like the idea of the holy communion, whereas it is central to Christianity. A person can believe in and appreciate different values that each religion adheres to, but at heart, they are quite different. I also do not believe in moral relativism.
ps – From the Gospel of John: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to bethrough him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Tanya–Thanks for quoting my favourite Biblical passage John 1:1-5; and I (as a literary person, not a manifestation of anything else) forgive you for not citing the King James Version.
Maybe we all need to practice tolerance and not set ourselves up in judgement of another person’s spiritual quest–
Emma–you definitely do not speak for all people who consider themselves Christian. Not all Christians are fundamentalists or literalists. Not all people who call themselves Christians believe in a literal virgin birth or a literal son of God–Some Christians even refer to God as “She/He”.
If being a Mustian (Christlim?) works for her–more powers to her! The idea that what we believe is right and what the other person believes is wrong is the essence of intolerance.
I think it is perfectly possible to combine elements of different religions that you find personally compelling as your own private custom-made religion. Luckily, most of us do not live in countries that mandate following a particular religion any one particular way.
The problem with this particular woman priest was not that she wanted to custom-mix her own creed, but that while doing so, she wanted to preserve her status as an officiant of the mainstream Episcopalianism. That I find perfectly illogical. It’s like inventing your own diet but still wanting to keep your vegetarian’s badge. So, while I think that you should be free to create your own mix of beliefs, if you are independent enough to want that, you ought to be able to do without the Big Cardinal or Big Rabbi or Big Imam patting you on the head and telling you it’s OK.
And the point with Christians believing the same thing (trinity) at the time of Quranic revelation as they do now has I think been proven beyond further debate. I understand that some within the Muslim community want to revise that view, but that simply isn’t so.
Besides, if you think that Quranic verses on Christianity no longer applies, think of the door you are opening with this statement:
If you can say, “Today’s Christians are different from 7th century Christians, therefore what the Quran says about them no longer applies”, then you also ought to be able to say, for instance, the following:
“Today’s women are different from 7th century, therefore what the Quran says about them no longer applies.”
“Today’s orphans are different from 7th century orphans, therefore what the Quran says about them no longer applies.”
“Today’s children are different from 7th century children, therefore what the Quran says about them no longer applies.”
See what I mean?
Khalid–I loved Life of Pi
Cool Red–thank you
For thinking open minded people and great discussions–
Nikos Kazantzakis-The Last Temptation of Christ
Jose Saramago–The Gospel According to Jesus Christ
Aafke–I’m pretty much on the seventh day seven days a week!
American Bedu–gotta love this blog!
Coolred, Sirius and NN–agreed
Sirius–also on the “to be read” list
Chiara–I am awaiting the fundamentalist firestorm–! I’ll need your help!
The good thing about fundamentalists is that they come in all three Abrahamic forms and in various forms within each Abrahamic faith–a veritable plethora of firestorms methinks!
LOL @ Chiara, great comment
three firestorms, no waiting
The woman was an Episcopal priest in the jurisdiction of the Episcopal diocese in Rhode Island.
The Imam of the Islamic Center of RI is quoted in the local paper as saying:
“I think she is a little confused. There is no possibility for one to be both a Muslim and a Christian,” … “If she doesn’t believe that [Jesus] is the son of God, she is not Christian. And she can’t be a Muslim if she believes Jesus died on a cross.”
In my house the tendency among my children is to be MUBU’s.. Muslim Buddhists…The non harming, the dwelling in the inner self for strength as the outself reaches for Allah.
I know the line will gather to say “are you guys nuts”!..but it is what has kept my son sane through all the horror he has seen in place like Iraq, Afghanistan; where he can in moments put himself back in a dojo and her the chanting that so soothes his soul. And also prepares his mind when he has to arm all lthe extra pounds of armour and head for the streets.
If this keeps him closer to Allah ( as he has ways of chanting in Arabic that maintain the Buddhist tradition) so be it…it is keeping him sane. that is all that counts for me.
His way of shedding and “debriefing” is to climb the stations on Mount Fuji in plain winter.
Sirius: Oh, yes1 I know that I’m not speaking for everybody who call themselves Christians!
Anyway, to stick with the topic I still think this lady is mixed up (though it’s still her right!)
Mariam–LOL
Mel–way up there at 7:22 pm–excellent examples of how to find common ground
Inal–thanks for sharing a new (to me) and positive blend of the best of 2 religions, and a mother’s priority regarding a child’s sanity over rigid adherence to particular belief system.
I think people can pull certain components of other religions (primarily the esoteric) into their “spiritual truths” and or religion. Abrahamically, there is the “same water that flows through them all”
Coolred, I appreciated what you wrote. She’s been “rumbled” just like the rest of us and is on the journey, again … she’ll work it out.
The Gospel of John, is not really like the other three of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. This gospel speaks, at least when I read it, very symbolically.
“In the beginning was the Word…” and then the pronouns of “he” when I think it’s more in the sense of attempting to grasp the infinite nature of Allah/God, the unfathomable. The “word” places a frame, puts form to … Allah speaks “Be” and it was. The “word” put form to the idea, the intention of creation.
The “I Am” … to me … seems to approach too this unfathomable nature, that while a name in a sense, like Allah, it cannot quite grasp it … certainly there … but just so outside the fingertips that it remains, elusive, yet quite substantial and apparent.
… how it seems to me … at this meager point of awareness.
@ Tanya:
“For instance, taken literally Christianity should be a totally pacifist religion. Judaism and Islam are not pacifist in the least.”
Well, let’s see: the Crusades, bloody conflict in Ireland, Salem Witch Trials … yep, sounds like a totally pacifist religion to me!
joanj–thanks for the followup–other items I read said she is studying Arabic, and although she sees herself as Christian, Episcopal, and Muslim, and regrets no longer being a “priest” she is pursuing further study of Islam, from which she had not withdrawn even after 21 months of reflection. The Bishop who defrocked said she exhibited the highest integrity in her thought and action but could not be allowed to continue to minister as a priest. She does seem to be on a renewed spiritual journey.
to be honest, I’d like to say that some people in the west are living in peace even with animals and I admire that, but does that mean I should imbraise thier religion, no, because when they forgive and distribute peace It came from inside of them.Not all the american are kind nor all christians are, not even the saudis are kind nor all the muslims are. Everyone choose his path same as his believes, ethics, and opinions.Therefore, we can’t judge the religion based on what those who belong to it and vice versa if you understand what I mean.
I don’t know what is in the “someone” heart here but I would tell him as an advice and I hope that he meant what I understand……….
so here you go
[ Al ma'eda , ayah 3]
.{ this day have I perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. but if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination transgression, God is indeed oft forgiving, most merciful.}
peace be in life of everyone I know and I don’t know
sounds like pratice without faith.
NN
And todays men are different from 7th century arabia….
the list could go on…sigh
Safiiya, Exactly! That’s why I said “taken literally”….unfortunately, not many of us take our religions literally or figuratively in their true meaning. By the same token, it seems Islam and Judaism have acknowledged humans’ inherent tendency toward violence and condoned it in some cases – makes it easier than striving against it in all cases. For a more mild example – why are most Hardcore “Fundamentalist Christians” pro-life but also pro-death penalty??!?!! Oy the contradictions!!
ps,
sirius: Nikos Kazantzakis-The Last Temptation of Christ
Jose Saramago–The Gospel According to Jesus Christ
I agree – Totally interesting!!! Would love to read similar reinterpretations of other religions…including Islam! I have not read Satanic Verses – that’s the only famous one I know of, but I don’t know what tack it takes…. could it be that more people have the liberty to write such things about Christianity but not about Islam?
pps here is a very different, very interesting example I have heard of recently. He seems to have developed differently than many of the converts on this blog….
Amazon.com: Pilgrims of Christ on the Muslim Road: Exploring a New Path Between Two Faiths (9780742566033): Paul-Gordon Chandler: Books
Tanya, in the Satanic verses Salman the scribe who writes down a prophets dictations and is making small changes to see if they are noticed and they aren’t.
Salman’s reading of the passage:
I have enjoyed reading all the very interesting comments this post has generated. I’ve no problem with individuals finding aspects of faith which give them comfort, peace and direction. But this is also where I feel strongly about religion being a more private matter. I do not agree with an Episcopalian minister believing she could continue to preach to her congregation while also professing to hold two faiths.
From what I have read in the CNN article and others she has come under more criticism from the Christian community for her actions more so than the Muslim community. The Christian community seems to have been more outspoken that her actions are wrong whereas the Muslim community has expressed concern and states she is confused or on a spiritual journey.
There are portions of each and every religion that one would likely find comforting and in agreement with but like one of the commentors saying, picking and choosing like making your own diet or enjoying a smorgasbord buffet just is not the way to present religion.
I have no doubt many individuals have done such…look perhaps at some foreign wives who have married Muslims. They may have chosen to convert and will call themselves muslms but deep in their hearts and in their upbringing they are still Christians. But they go through the multiple motions of multiple religions. In most cases though, they will not publicly announce this fact but choose to do so privately.
However when it comes to that Judgement Day, each and every one of us is individually accountable to God/Allah for each and every action.
From the article, it clearly seems she is on spiritual journey. The fact is that for a person to believe one thing all their life, and then to switch the core of their belief system overnight is unlikely. She is caliming to be a Muslim but has strong attachment to her flock and her people from the previous life.
Regardless, as much as Christianity and Isalm are smilar in ways, the basic doctrine, like Abu Sinan said, are worlds apart theologically. Allah clearly says in the Quran:
“Say: He is Allah, the One and Only. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him” Chapter 114: 1-4
Whereas mainstreem Christians believe 3 Gods/portions/manifestations and whatever name you want to give it. Let’s face it – regardless of what you call it, it’s the same idea in a different wrapper. It’s just not monothiesm. And that is sufficient enough for someone to not be able to claim to be a Muslim & a Christian at the same time.
I think that if you took out the fact that she was a minister there would most likely not be anyone who would care what religion she called herself. However, I think that the majority of Muslims would say she is NOT a Muslim, because from what I read, the Islam that she is attracted to or adheres to is Sufism. How many Muslims consider that Islam and would accept her as a Muslim?
Abu Sinan – ‘ This idea that all we have to do is ask for forgiveness and everything is washed away is a major problem in the Christian church today.’
What happens when you say the Shahada or go on Hajj? Are your sins not washed away?
Adnan,
Is it possible for me to be a mother, a wife, and an accountant while still being just one person? The answer is yes and I don’t even have any special or absolute powers. So, why can’t there be a God that can be a holy spirit that talks to or through people (Gabriel) or is inside a human being that was formed through immaculate conception (virgin birth)? That is IF you believe that there is a God with these absolute powers.
Lynn.. technically she said the Shahada, and if she believes in it then it does make her Muslim. The article is not clear as to what part of Christianity she had still held onto. If she still believed in the trinit of God or a similar variation, then she become a disbeliever again. But God knows best.
Lyn- Is it possible for me to be a mother, a wife, and an accountant while still being just one person?
Classic answer given by any Christian. Let me then ask you this question: If someone stabs you and you bleed to death, you ie. the mother, the wife and the accountant will cease to exist. All three are dead. So you’re telling me when Jesus died on the Cross, God in all your forms was dead too then, right?
This article gives more information on her spiritual journey and current beliefs:
http://www.projo.com/news/content/priest_03-15-09_QMDMFI7_v3.1dc7473.html
“She says she continues to believe that Jesus is divine but goes on to explain that she believes there is an element of the divine in all of us. “We are all children of God.” … In a departure from traditional Islamic teaching, Redding holds that Jesus was crucified and was resurrected. She argues that the Koran doesn’t explicitly deny that Jesus was crucified but only that the Jews did not crucify him. ”
Post 9/11 interfaith initiatives put her in communication with Muslims, and her mother’s death precipitated a personal crisis of faith that saw her convert to Islam (by saying the Shahada). She comes from a personal and family history of civil rights advocacy, and has co-authored a book on her spiritual journay toward Islam: “Out of Darkness Into Light” .
As for tawheed it seems some of the confusion and debate is about 2 distinct translated meanings: 1) monotheism as opposed to pre-Islamic Arabian polytheism–numerous Surah and verses; 2) the indivisibilty of Allah as opposed to the Christian trinitarian God (proving the Christians of the time of the Prophet were trinitarians)–Surah 112.
Christians and Jews are monotheistic as opposed to polytheistic, but Christians believe in the trinitarian single God (no more polytheistic or implying 3 Gods than the 99 names of Allah imply divisibility). Jews believe the Messiah has not yet come, and when he does he will not be divine.
Lyn, if I may–no Adnan, of course, that is the point for Christians, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Jesus the Messiah or Saviour) is a part of God and God’s plan and in no way challenges, but rather proves the existence of God and his love of humankind.
A better analogy (but analogy only) would be 3 differents states of divinity, like the 3 different states (steam, water, ice) of H2O–still H2O.
Again, I respect everyone’s faith beliefs and practices, but the topic is interesting and worth being accurate about.
Regarding the defrocked priest, even those doing the defrocking agree the only problem with her faith in the Abrahamic God/Allah is her trying to be an ordained Episcopalian priest at the same time as a professed Muslim. And thank God/Allah that He (not a human) is the final judge of us all.
Chiara – sorry to burst your bubble but you’re throwing out another example very commonly used by Christians to explain trinity – unfortunately, like all others, this example fails as well.
Simply put, Water, ice and steam do not exist at the same temperature points. Ice has to melt to turn to water and water has to vapourize at the boiling point to become steam. At neither point do the three states co-exist.
So by that analogy, God in human form only existed when God in the other two forms were absent! Then how do numerous passages in the Bible stand to be true when Jesus in the bible was talking to God the father? Or how does this analogy hold truth or any logic when the “water” was humbling itself and seeking mercy from the “ice”?
Sorry, but all your examples are illogical. With due respect, you need to try harder.
Very interesting post for many personal reasons!
Adnan–not really, I thought I had emphasized that the H2O analogy was limited, and that I do not intend to convince anyone, only to be intellectually honest in the conversation about the topic. An analogy, by definition, always has a logical flaw, and falls apart if carried too far, especially to a reductio ad absurdum (which can be done with anything, especially if one has enough chutzpah, so to speak).
A truly Christian answer would be that the Holy Trinity is an article of faith and a divine mystery, and doesn’t submit (word choice intended) to logic. This was the primary reason for the defrocking–you cannot pronounce the Shahada with sincere intent (she wanted to submit to Allah) and preach the Holy Trinity at the same time–or you could, but the Episcopal Church doesn’t have to let you do it as one of their priests. The Bishop herself states she understands this much about Islam and so was forced to defrock a woman she otherwise respected and tried to give chances to without interfering in her spiritual journey.
If I were to be cynical, and pop psychological, I would say the woman is repeating a compulsion (a la Freud) to challenge established authority (as an undergrad she led an effective movement in 1968 to admit more black women to her college, and then was an effective protester against the Vietnam war), as an identification with the father (a “Negro” NAACP lawyer who helped litigate desegregation of schools) triggered by the death of the mother provoking feelings of Oedipal guilt, and a need to submit to a more reliably patriarchal religion. But I’m no,t so I won’t, and anyway I’d rather rift on the Lacanian mirror stage but it doesn’t apply well here, and I’m not convinced Islam is more inherently patriarchal than any other Abrahamic religion, and willing to believe it is less so.
Good bubble joke though!!
Adnan, certain things in each faith are articles of faith, otherwise none of us would believe in any religion – why do we believe that Mohammed was being touched by God in the caves, when most likely he was really just having an epileptic seizure? Why do we believe he actually climbed to heaven and came back down again…all of these things are faith. Why would we believe God would actually care if we owned a dog as a pet or ate pig products? Are not all of the above examples equally illogical or ridiculous? To me they are, but to others they are not – it is merely a matter of faith.
So as regards the trinity, I have to say again, I have no doubt whatsoever that I am a monotheist and a Christian and that these things are not mutually exclusive. You may reason differently, but it won’t matter to me, no more than my reasoning on Islam matters to you
tanya, thanks for your reply.
If you understood my arguement correctly, you’d clearly understand that I was not questionning your belief in the trinity; I understand that is your basic article of faith. And I agree with you that the reason we call things faith is because we are beleiving a lot of things that we don’t see.
My issue is when Christians claim that trinity is a monotheistic beleif. I have a problem with that, because that claim is no further from the truth than pluto is to the sun. Saying that trinity and monotheism is the same is like saying an apple and a gun are the same. Sorry, you can jump and throw tantrums all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that the concept of trinity in Christianity makes all those who beleive in such, polythiests, no matter how many analogies you use to convince yourselves otherwise. This is not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of fact.
I agree with Tanya. I know the inner joy and peace that I have with Christ in my life, and I wouldn’t trade His presence in my life for a bunch of rules and living in fear. Do I understand one God revealing Himself as three persons? No, but it’s OK to not understand God! If I could, He’d be a small God! I can’t even understand how men think
so why would I insist that I had to understand God and how He works? I simply should not limit Him to my human logic.
The Bible says, “without faith it is impossible to please God.” God doesn’t want us to insist He explain everything or that everything has to be logical. Just as you love for your children to trust you despite the fact they don’t understand your reasoning, God loves for us to trust Him. Our faith pleases Him. Jesus said we must have faith such as children to enter the kingdom of God. Children trust their parents’ goodness. We can trust God’s goodness without demanding that we fully understand God and how He works and reveals Himself — whether it’s in one way, three or countless different ways!
Adnan, so the one true God couldn’t choose to reveal Himself in three ways?
Susanne, the true one God did not decide to begett himself and have His ‘son’ die to save mankind. The true One God is oft-forgiving and most merciful, and just needs our sincere repentance to forgive us; not for someone to die for other people’s sins. The true One God does not get betrayed by the disciples, and is not so powerless to defend against mere mortals. The true One God does not confuse the people by having a God son asking the father god for help and mercy.
If I recall correctly, early “Christians” – as Jews/Hebrews/ did not eat pork. It was not until Christianity began to spread to “pagan” cultures this began to work its way in practice.
Indeed there are now many Christians who do not / will not eat pork. Also interesting to note, Jesus’ work began to change was when he spoke to the woman at the well. “Why would you, a Jew, speak to me, a Samaritan?” Jesus grew into who he would become … his ministry changed as his awareness of God changed.
Year after year, the liturgical wheel is recreated – necessarily so – many will either remain in it, or will break the wheel and go east beyond Bethany, east beyond the Jordan … into where? To me, Islam picks-up at that point and pulls it through “to the rising of the sun.”
I know Muslims who own dogs, i know Muslims who keep them in the house, one, because they like them, and two, citing the Qu’ranic passage of the cave, where the dog was clearly inside rather than outside. Though nowhere in the Qur’an does it mention a cat being in the house/cave.
There were cats in the mosques in the early days, who interestingly enough had a much older reputation as “guardians between the worlds” Whereas the doggy, was seen as having arrived from the underworld (related to Anubis, if I recall correctly).
But regarding the debate over the concept of the Trinity, In Luke 12:10
“Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the person who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
and Matthew 12:32
“Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.”
You can see where there is the possibility for the argument of their being separate entities. If they were actually one, then if when blaspheming against the Holy Spirit were not to be forgiven, neither would it be against the Son.
The concept of “three” is not a new one, including the saying “everything comes in threes.” The idea of family, mother, father, child. There’s even an interesting tidbit over the trefoil, the shamrock, and Arabia/Persia. Can anyone verify this?
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam – the Big Three
I think the thing is too, can man call himself God? During the time of Jesus, Caesar was a son of god, before that pharaoh was a son of the gods, whose names generally stated which one.
While we’ve the “divine breath” or “spark” within us, it is not of us, but is bestowed to us. It was this same type of discussion that caused the schism between the eastern and western churches with the addition of a few words to the Nicene Creed. I think it had to do with whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father / or from the Father and Son …. personally I think the Holy Spirit is feminine and in being so, She does whatever She wants.
Borrowing from the medical field, if you were to receive blood, or a skin graft, etc from another person, you do not become that person, you are still who you are.
Esoterically and romantically,
it can be said, “You are now a part of me, I am you and you are me.” But you are both independent and are neither in actuality, the other. Maybe, this is where the shift is, and I think it takes it to where things are at the origin, and additionally, where things are in origin of interconnectedness as being sent forth from the One, Whom, we often consider as Father/Mother in our human abilities to try to comprehend the unfathomable.
Now I’ve gone on tooooo looonnng in this post and hope I won’t get my knuckles cracked. lol But I have some ice here just in case.
Tanya, try Orhan Pamuk–he takes on fundamentalist Islam–My Name is Red–is wonderful.
American Bedu–right fighting is not my thing–but not everyone believes in judgement day either–we are all who we are and can only believe what we can believe–for some people the leap of faith is just a tiny step for others its a big jump over a high cliff–
Adnan, I respectfully disagree. If you see my original post, you will see my reasoning on the trinity. I do believe God can reveal himself in any form he so chooses. We as humans are trying to grasp this, so if our language or minds are limited in the ways which we can explain or comprehend it, that is because we are human, not God. It does not mean it is wrong.
Also, one thing you said is a key theological disagreement between Muslims and Christians, and another reason it is hard to believe both. Muslims do not believe God would ever put himself in a weakened position or allow himself to be betrayed, like Jesus was. Christians believe that’s exactly the whole point of all this stuff – God loved us so much, he came down to earth, and put himself at our mercy, not because he is weak, but because he is so strong and all-loving and so desires to save us and show us the path to salvation.
Tanya:
You are right. This is where we are fundamentally apart. For Muslims, the opinion that God is pretty much forced to begett himself and be betrayed and killed and humiliated by mere mortals in order to forgive mankind, can never be accepted.
For Muslims, God is the divine being that is not subjected to anything and does not need to belittle himself to forgive anyone. He is all powerful and oft-forgiving. If He wills, He forgives. Plain and simple.
Adnan, For one thing, I’m not a Christian yet I am able to grasp the concept. I haven’t read all the comments yet so excuse me if someone has already answered this.
IF we are taking into consideration that ‘GOD’ is all powerful, all knowing, creater of EVERYthing, can watch and be everywhere at all times for all people and who is able to create a life with ‘immaculate conception’ why couldn’t that life be one that had HIS spirit within it that did EVERYthing at HIS bidding?
Religious people think of the body as just being a portal that holds the spirit or soul do they not? So when the body dies, the spirit just goes back to heaven where it originated. So Jesus’ spirit originated with GOD, was in touch with GOD(after all it was his own spirit right?) on Earth and returned to GOD after death (as he planned it). So the same thing with the Mother, wife and accountant. They did not die, they went to heaven for eternal life.
‘the opinion that God is pretty much forced to begett himself and be betrayed and killed and humiliated by mere mortals in order to forgive mankind, can never be accepted.’
I don’t think that any Christian would think that God was ‘forced’ to do anything. Christians consider it a gift that he gave them to help them understand what it looks like to do God’s bidding (follow Jesus’ example and you’ll be doing God’s bidding) I also don’t think that any of them think that Jesus was humiliated. I’ve never read anything that sounded like he felt humiliated. I mean, he knew exactly what was going to happen, how it was going to happen, who was going to do what etc. How could that mean humiliation if he walked bravely into it?
Lynn,
Thanks for your comments. However, your points had already been made and refuted earlier if you care to go back and read some of the comments. For example, regarding the part where you say “why couldn’t the life..”, Susan, in one of her earlier posts quite eloquently put, “Borrowing from the medical field, if you were to receive blood, or a skin graft, etc from another person, you do not become that person, you are still who you are”
There are Godly attributes in all of us that is bestowed to us by God, things such as mercy, love, care etc.. but that doesn’t make us God. That’s the difference that we need to understand.
And yes, with the claim that Jesus had to die for the sins of manking, those who believe this do certainly imply clearly that God ‘had’ to come down in flesh, and be punished for our sins, implying that there was no other way to forgive our sins. In that respect, the Muslims’ view of God’s divine nature to be all powerful and the Creator is much more honest, because we believe that God can give forgive when He wills, just as He can give a virgin, a child. Nothing is beyond Him and His control, and to think even for a minute that He needed to be human and die for mankind’s sins is blasphamous.
And one last thing, yes, God did appoint men that followed His commands and did His bidding on Earth… they were called Prophets.
Adnan,
I did go and read the rest of the comments and I disagree that blood or skin grafts are anything close to similar in nature as ‘SPIRIT’
‘with the claim that Jesus had to die for the sins of manking’
Never in my life have I ever heard that Jesus HAD to die for the sins. As I understand it God ‘chose’ to die for the sins…big difference in my eyes. Again ‘die’ here does not mean what regualr everyday humans think of the word ‘die’.
‘There are Godly attributes in all of us that is bestowed to us by God, things such as mercy, love, care etc.. but that doesn’t make us God’
A-HA! I think I understand where you and Chrisitans might differ. You consider that if I am merciful, loving etc it is because I was given those attributes as a gift ‘from’ God. I think that Christians would say that they have these attributes because they are trying to follow Jesus’ example because they are thankful to God for the mercy that he has shown them.
Personally, I treat others as I would like to be treated(mercifully, compasionately, lovingly etc) not because Jesus said that (remember I am not a Christian) but because I think that is what everyone should do if we want a harmonious society.
And, I do not think that it is only Prophets that follow God’s commands and do his bidding on Earth. Was Mother Theresa a prophet? What about the people that are like Mother Theresa yet they are not religious?
Adnan
If you were to say: “From a Muslim perspective the concept of the trinity makes Christianity polytheistic”, I would agree with your statement of “fact”. From a Christian perspective, ie as Christians define their religion and belief, this is an error in understanding both the nature of the trinity, and Christian theology.
Again the error is of the same order and magnitude as saying Muslims are Mohammedans who worship the Prophet Mohamed as God incarnate. Blatantly false, but some Christians did, and do mistakenly believe this, as they confuse Muslim reverence for the Prophet as being the same as their own belief in Jesus as the son of God.
My intent is not to convince you, but merely to ask you to be accurate. Polytheistic means multiple gods not multiple manifestations of divinity; and your own religious beliefs, as much as I respect them, cannot be assumed to define Christianity for Christians. Tawheed in Islam includes these 2 distinct Christian notions of monotheism and trinitarianism as one–leading to confusion when trying to understand Christianity from the Christian perspective.
I must say that aside from American Bedu’s blog commentators, I have never heard anyone of any religion, in formal studies or informal conversation with anyone from any faith claim that Christianity is polytheistic, or even that the trinity represents polytheism. That, despite studying the history and philosophy of Christianity by scholars of various religious backgrounds (or no religion), and various disciplines including theology, religious studies, philosophy, history of ideas, and despite reading major works by theologians Christian and non.
American Bedu’s blog never ceases to amaze!
Chiara, I second that.
Adnan, now who’s throwing temper tantrums?
Your interpretation of Christian beliefs shows that you do not understand our beliefs. Rather, you understand your understanding of them. That’s unfortunate, but it is life. I am sure I am probably sadly guilty of some of the same. Peace be with you.
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading through this. As someone who grew up Christian, is reading the Quran to learn more about Islam (not to convert), is happy believer of general monotheism, and is currently questioning how I feel on a variety of topics related to Christianity, Islam, and other religions (which I hope to learn about soon) as well as conspiracy theories. Sometimes, the craziest I ideas make the most logical and intuitive sense when looking back at them later on -such as the world being round and orbiting around a sun (rather than flat, stationary, and at the center of the universe).
To be honest, I never really understood the whole trinity concept growing up. It just didn’t make sense the way people tried to explain it. One interpretation of “Son of God” that I have heard is that is what a lot of religious leaders/followers of God called themselves at the time. Also, I think Jesus is also referred to as the “Son of Man” as well.
I have been wondering about the one verse when Jesus says “I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the father except through me.” I really don’t know what context it was originally used in, and/or if it was added to the Bible later on. I’d love to hear different views on this concept.
Jesus also said the two most important things was to “Love the Lord, your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.” The second greatest was to “Love your neighbor as yourself.” This is what I, personally, believe although I have updated the latter to be that you should love both yourself and your neighbor greatly. Please note that he did not say that the greatest commandment was to worship him, but to worship God. So I think that Christianity was originally a monotheistic religion and got taken out of context later as things were added and removed from the Bible over time, meanings got lost in translation, etc.
As for Islam, I believe in one God, but I have mixed feelings about the idea of prophets in the first place. What exactly were/are prophets? Is a prophet just someone who reminds people to live how God would want them to live? If we can all have a personal relationship with God, then how are the prophets any different than us? Is it because they reminded people of the best ways to live through being a leader of the people?
I think the basics of both Christianity and Islam are similar, but I think that after the basic ideas there are many differences. For instance, Islam requires hajj. Although I can interpret this as a personal spiritual journey (like some Native American tribes also have), there are certain requirements to performing hajj. Nowhere in Christianity is it said that going to these sites are mandatory. Christianity doesn’t require set prayer times either, though I don’t see a problem with praying at set times. So while I think the basic ideals and beliefs of both are very similar and perhaps even identical, I think where the difference lies is in how one interprets these beliefs into practices.
Therefore, I don’t know how someone could be a religious leader of both Islam and Christianity and truly believe all of what’s in both books as there would be some contradictions along the way.
Here are some further questions I have:
Isn’t the true Creator of everything in the world also what everything in the world is made of? If God is all things and is in all things, then aren’t we a part of him now? Why would we need someone else to tell us what we could figure out on our own by listening to our own souls and using logic and reason? Is this because people weren’t doing this?
So if God actually spoke out loud to the prophets, why is that? If God took the shape of a person, then couldn’t that be the same as if God created one of us? If it was another being, then what were the intentions of this being? Was the being really serving God or not? Who, exactly, is Gabriel the messenger and why does he care about the earth’s civilization?
If people exist on other planets, then couldn’t they come visit ours? Couldn’t they have visited earth in the past? If good and evil spirits exist on this earth as well, then why are they here? What do they want from us? What led Satan to act evil? Why would an angel/spirit/whatever be jealous of humans?
These are all things I do not understand, so I’m looking for truth and reason. If you are going to use logic and reason to explain why a particular religion doesn’t work for you, but then use blind faith to explain why you are a particular religion, how is that NOT hypocritical? So I am definitely on a religious journey on my own to find the truth in various religions and see how they all fit together to best explain why we exist on earth. My basic principles of monotheism and love (and of the sacredness of free will) won’t change, though.
Anyone have any thoughts/ideas on answering these questions? I’m searching for knowledge and different points of view. Sorry if I offended anyone. Just looking for answers.