Among the Saudi culture is to address one who has a child as Umm (child’s name) or Abu (child’s name) as a sign of respect. (Umm referring to mother and Abu referring to father). Typically one is referred to using the name of the first born child. Recently we had a new birth in the extended family and the new arrival is a little boy. The parents already had other children, all girls. I was surprised when I noticed that instead of referring to the parents as Umm (first born daughter name) or Abu (first born daughter name); that now the new (and only) son’s name replaced that of the daughter. This got me to thinking so I asked my husband how my mother-in-law was known if addressed as Umm given that her first born child was a girl and it was not until several additional births before a son was born. I learned that she is also addressed as Umm (first born male). However if a male child is not the first born, a mother or father will likely be addressed as Umm (girl child’s name) or Abu (girl child’s name) until a male child has been born. And if one is a respected adult with no children then the man may like be addressed as Abu (father’s first name) and a woman as Umm (father’s first name). Of course everyone knowing me by now in the family I challenged why the girl’s name was unceremoniously dropped just because a male child had been born. The explanation was this is part of the Saudi culture. At least a few family members did agree with me when I couldn’t help but remark that I did not like where the culture seemed to erase the acknowledgement or importance of a female child just because a male child was finally born.
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This has always bothered me. It becomes proof of the value of girls in Saudi culture regardless of what others say.
In addition, how about all the girls named Tammam. It must be lovely to go through life with that name.
My understanding of the Umm /Abu rule was
Umm/Abu first born; (then)
Umm/ Abu first born son; (then later)
Umm/Abu most illustrious son, if one clearly supercedes the eldest in bringing a positive reputation to the family.
As far as I know there was no tradition of even recording or counting the birth of girls, eg. in a genealogy.
Our great female/male divide is that the only time we received a call about a birth was for the only boy bearing the family patronym–otherwise we find out about births when we make our weekly phone call. Hmmmmm!
Also it seems the pressure to have a child is not off, or lessened, until there is a first born son–then everyone relaxes a bit!
Are you considered an Umm because of your son (and grandson)? or do you have some other (well-deserved) title of respect in the family?
Chiara
on a first name basis only, though respectfully
“Also it seems the pressure to have a child is not off, or lessened, until there is a first born son–then everyone relaxes a bit!”
-Chiara
I am the oldest of four siblings, and my one and only brother was born third. My mom said that my dad (a Arab) was anxious and continually voiced his desire for a son right up until the birth of my brother.
I have never questioned that he loves us equally…BUT…even these days, when we’re all much older, he still refers to my brother as “My son” often, and shows subtle indications of his affection and esteem for my brother that I don’t really see paralleled with my sisters.
Maybe it’s just a “guy thing”…?
-theHalfBreed
http://beliefcan.blogspot.com
First of all, your new banner is very pretty!
Secondly, I had somewhat of this very same conversation with my Syrian friend a while back. I was told it was just how they do it in their culture. But I find it INSULTING, of course! Boys are so valuable and girls are not….blah!
I declare it would be so funny if the women of these places refused to marry these men and refused to have their babies. It would be funny to me to see these proud Arab men not be able to procreate and make more Arab babies to bless the world. Sorry, but I am SO tired of this arrogant thought of girls being trashed compared to boys. It makes men out to be half-gods.
Please no one think I hate men. I don’t. This just strikes a nerve. I am the oldest of 4 — 2 girls, 2 boys and I can proudly say that my dad loves and values me so much!
Halfbreed–I have no doubt fathers and grandfathers love their girls, but I think in patriarchal cultures they do have a special feeIing of accomplishment when their wife finally has a boy–not enough seem to me to realize the sperm determines the gender, at least when they keep coming up with girls.
I often wonder what I would do if I had a patient with a history of postpartum depression and 4 or 5 girls, and it was clear her health and the marriage would be in jeopardy until she had a boy, and that she wanted the marriage and the boy.
Probably medicate (postpartum depression is usually too biologically mediated to use only therapy for prevention or treatment) and do therapy appropriately while praying along with them for a boy, since in Canada ” in 2004 the Assisted Human Reproduction Act made it a crime for anyone, for the purpose of birth of a child, knowingly to:
perform any procedure or provide, prescribe or administer any thing that would ensure or increase the probability that an embryo will be of a particular sex, or that would identify the sex of an in vitro embryo, except to prevent, diagnose or treat a sex-linked disorder or disease (s. 5(1)(c)).”
Or would I tell them about sperm washing, Microsort, and ICSI with Microsort (nb these are all techniques of selecting “boy sperm”, not abortion in any form) and point them toward a country (eg. the US) that would help them do it?
This rule is not unique to Saudi, but also found in all Arab countries. My first born is a girl and my second is a boy. After my son was born, I tried to change this rule in my case. I was correcting friends to call me by either my first name or Abu (daughters name). That did not work. Only few people will do it and they defer to using my son’s name.
In Saudi culture there are even more restrictions which makes this difficult. The majority of men will not discuss the names of female family members in front of other males, who are not family members also. This makes it almost impossible to use female names with the Abu title.
Wow Chiara, interesting thoughts! (albeit, a little too scientific for me!
)
We’ve discussed this in some of my classes before–the deep anthropological and psychological roots of these sort of patriarchical preferences.
Middle Eastern culture (along with many other societies) has historically relied more on men than women. We see that the cultures where survival depended more on male abilities to hunt, fight, and herd than on female ablities to nurture, create, etc, the patriarchal tendencies are more deeply ingrained.
Bedouin culture, understandably, originally would have valued men more (conciously, subconciously, or whatever) because men were percieved to be more essential to survival. (Nevermind the argument that women are obviously essential to procreation, etc…)
And of course, from this we get ideas like patrlineal inheritences, preservation of the family name through males, etc…
Maybe these traditions are more relics of an overtly patriarchal past than evidence of a blatantly sexist society today? Or do we face as much rational and concious sexism as ever?
I’m really not sure if the majority of men and women can put their finger on what perpetuates these customs. They are subtly discriminating, yes. But are they powerful enough to command attention and to spark controversy beyond a few bloggers online? How deep does this go?
I just rambled. Sorry.
-TheHalfBreed
http://beliefcan.blogspot.com
Half Breed–thanks for your comment, and you seem to have the anthropology down right–people, and systems tend to perpetuate the status quo, not to mention biology and gender differences.
Re: the science–sorry.
Basically Canadian Health Law says you can only help someone have a child of a specific sex if there is a serious genetic illness that will occur with the other sex.
Sperm washing increases the quality of the sperm for artificial insemination (even from the husband),
Microsort sorts the sperm into “boys” and “girls” so you can inseminate with one gender and dramatically increase the chances of getting a girl (~87% instead of 50%) or a boy (~75% instead of 50%).
ICSI (intracytoplasmic sperm injection) is a form of in vitro fertilization (IVF) where they pick one sperm (boy or girl) and inject it into the egg to make either a boy or girl embryo to implant (gender 100% guaranteed).
It is legal and available to do these things in the US to balance the family (eg. 3 girls want a boy or vice versa) and some clinics will even do it for the choice of gender of the first born.
I still need to find out if anything short of ICSI would get Bobbsey twins (boy-girl set, then boy-girl set)
BTW 2 different family members on the Moroccan side trying for a boy had this combo: girl, girl , twin girls. One finally got the boy (after making haj, meeting an old woman with clairvoyant powers, and praying alot).
Saudi in US–thanks for sharing your experience and the particularly Saudi aspects of this Arab cultural phenomenon.
My MIL refers to me as Umm Jon (my son’s name) and others in turn have picked it up. But when asked to introduce myself, I generally just say Carol.
Your MIL is so wonderful and accepting!
Gender bias once again. And why for Aqiqa cermonies do girls only get 1 animal and boys get two. I am still miffed over that.
If my husband ever had a son, I know he would still want to be referred to as Abu Aliyah (our first daughter’s name). He would never change that, she is just so special to him.
What is an Aqiqa ceremony?
And I’m glad to hear that there are men who do prefer to retain the daughter’s first name when she has been the first born.
The word in Arabic for this, I believe, is “Kunya”.
This is so much of a cultural.manhood issue that a well known insult in the Arabic speaking world is to call someone “Abu Banat”, meaning “father of girls”.
Of course this plays into the wider importance of titles in the Arabic speaking world. In the English speaking world you’d never really hear someone called with title like “ustadh” (teacher) or “mahandas” (engineer) but it is common in the Arabic speaking world.
I also think it also has to do with the fact that very often people will simply not know the given name for someone else, especially a woman. People can go, especially in very conservative areas, their entire lives and not know the given name of their best friend’s spouse. It is sometimes seen to be unseemly to talk about the females in your famiy or enquire about the females in another’s family.
So the “abu” and “umm” practice fits right into this fact nicely.
Carol,
An aqiqa is a practice, especially in the Arabic world, where some days after the birth of a baby a lamb is slaughtered or charity given. With our son Sinan we had two lambs slaughtered and then visited friends and family with large bags of assorted lamb cuts and presented them the meat. Sometimes the meat is given to charity.
With Sayf we actually found out what the price would have been to have two lambs butchered and gave the money to charity.
There is also a practice in the Arabic world for the women who have just had a baby. It is called “Arabeen”, literally meaning “fourty”. This refers to the fourty days that a woman is considered unclean after having a baby. Often a party is thrown and gifts given to the woman.
Oh this was a sore spot with me…when my first born, my daughter, was born…my ex and I were umm and abuSara…but 2 years later when my first son Adam was born everyone started calling us umm and abuAdam….I couldnt figure out what was going on and asked around. Of course I discovered what everyone here has been saying. My daughters 2 years as Queen of our house…Queen of our lives and hearts had apparently been usurped by the arrival of King Adam…her brother and superior.
I felt like it was such an erasure of Sara, and she felt it too,,,,:how come nobody calls you ummsara anymore mommy”…kids are listening people…they hear more than we think.
My friend has two little girls…everyone calls her ummabdullah…I asked her how come they call you that when you have 2 girls…you should be ummmoza…she said its shameful to call me by a girl name in mine and my husbands family….he is abuabdullah as well. That is soooo damn sad. You have two little beautiful girls and its considered a shame to call yourself their mothers in public.
Aaaargh!!! so many things about this culture just make me want to rip someones heart out for the millions of little girl hearts that are being squeezed over such heart breaking actions as these…my god!!!
No matter what happens, the Arabs will always be sexist. End of story
This kind of paternalistic society sadly is existent in many cultures across the world and the ‘male’ dominant societal structure in these cultures believe in perpetuating and propogating this inertia so to say.
People also do not realise the need for a balance and if this ’sexist’ bias continues, the number of men will over a period of time far outweigh the number of women and then it will be back to the ’stone age’ .
This is one area in which Saudi Arabia isn’t unique. If you read stories about the use of abortion to eliminate female fetuses you will find this is being done in a number of countries.
Even in the US paternalism exists, but usually at a more subtle level. The family of one of my in-laws is well off, they own a successful chemical business. The boys are educated to run the business, the girls are educated but I don’t know any that are in the family business.
“No matter what happens, the Arabs will always be sexist. End of story”
Because they stuffed your tank.
I saw this “title power” play out recently with my inlaws- one of my bil’s married and after about four years had a son- was named and then renamed (for some reason, the tribal elders thought the boy’s name was “cursed” because another named as such had not been a “good” man- to me that’s sooo superstious) so in a space of two months my bil had two different kunya… When his daughter was born two years later, the issue never came up of course, and it took us a few months to get her name so we could record it in a log we (hubby and I) started years ago to maintain our family tree and assure everyone born could get actual and true birth certificates which in Yemen is most definitely not the norm.
To this day the youngest is called “bint (father’s name)”… Talk about not having a personal identity…
It depends on where you go. The famous singer Mohammed Abdo is still called Abu Nora as is my uncle even though he does have a son but there is an overwhelming favor to use the eldest sons name.
Though through personal experience, being the name that people use to call your parents isn’t all rosey as people expect.
nice piece of information
but giving differential treatment for girl and boy is not in good taste
– still it is the culture, one has to accept
I ditto Coolred’s disgust.
I’m still trying to find something positive about this culture.
srinivas,
Why should people have to accept something that is not in good taste? There is no reason that cultures should not change over time and actually they have. If you study ancient cultures they are usually very different from the current culture with maybe maybe just a little flavor from the ancient culture. So I think that change is natural but can only occur if people are allowed to learn and grow rather than just accept.
@Rasputin: So….naming yourself Abu [insert eldest son here] causes the male/female ratio to swing wildly to one side??
huh?
@ Lynn
you are right – majority countries where democracy prevails, both men and women are treated equally
@Srinavas
It’s not even about Democracy or women’s equality. There are all kinds of different cultural things that have changed over time in different cultures.
@ Mohamed S
Changing your name to Abu (son’s name) won’t change anything but using modern medical technology to choose the sex of your baby would eventually if everyone went for boys only.
It’s funny….such a strong emphasis is placed on having sons in KSA yet so many of the Saudis whom I know will not choose to know the sex of their baby when they are pregnant. By comparison, it seems to me the majority of pregnant parents in the USA do want to know the sex in advance. And, yes, the technology to determine sex is indeed available and an option in KSA.
“I’m still trying to find something positive about this culture.”
-Lynn
I think that’s a bit much…Flawed, hard to understand, but not without its own merits. Let’s be respectful.
-TheHalfBreed
http://beliefcan.blogspot.com
Great comments! Some thoughts
Sabiwabi–I think the problem is that others would change your and your husband’s kunyas for you as Saudi in US and Coolred suggested.
In our family when animals are slaughtered for an aqiqa both genders get 2 which is permissible.
Abu Sinan–The kunya is also used to create a “nom de guerre” usually with Abu + not real name of eldest son. Condoleeza Rice’s insistence on calling Mahmoud Abbas “Abu Mazen” (which she always said simultaneously smiling and choking on the words), always annoyed me because I could never figure out if she was constantly signalling that he was one step up from a terrorist, or that they were such good friends and she was so culturally in tune that she knew to call him that (all counterintuitive, of course). Maybe her forthcoming bestseller will explain!
And thanks for reminding me that the Spanish polite/formal Usted (Ud) is from the Arabic master teacher”.
Coolred–what a poignant and insightful example of the impact on daughters. I heard many a “I used to be a princess, and then my brother was born…” story from many a culture but not quite this directly from the child’s perspective.
Jerry M and Mohamed S–I agree this is a cross cultural preference and differences exist within Arab culture. Kunyas are much less common in Morocco that I am aware of.
Mohamed S–I think Rasputin was referring to sex preference, as evidenced by the kunya, also resulting in gender selection (usually by abortion or female infanticide) to the point of imbalancing the population. In this respect, Arab and African cultures while hoping for boys, are much less likely (now) to practice gender specific abortion which is notorious in India (despite being illegal there) and in China.
Rasputin–I agree that this type of sex preference has led to gender selection that results in serious imbalances, currently in India (among hindus, and especially in certain regions–7-800 females/1000males) and China (as a result of the one child policy and a preference for males).
This is part of the ethical controversy of pre-conception or pre-implantation gender selection–it reduces abortion but makes it easier to have a population skew.
When it was legal in Canada, the biggest demand was from South Asian and East Asian immigrants wanting “boy sperm” and “boy embryos” to make boy babies. Not all of course, but the preponderance of those who went to the reproductive clinics providing those services.
American Bedu–studies have shown that Muslim and Africans (Muslim and not), while wanting sons, will not intercede (by abortion, or gender selection) in God’s will, and therefore probably see no point, or are told there is no point, in knowing the sex ahead of time. The only populations where this intercession is a major practice are Indian and East Asian (Koreans even more wanting boys than Chinese).
In Canada now Obsgyn people are advocating doing and knowing the results of genetic testing even when the parents will not choose abortion no matter what, so parents and families will be able to prepare psychologically and practically for a child with a genetic, chromosomal or congenital illness, and therefore have less of a shock and be better able to parent from the time of the birth of the child.
It is illegal to test only for gender, and to reveal only gender results. However, I think in some circumstances it would be helpful to the parents at least, and to their families should they choose to share the information, to know ahead whether’the fetus is a boy or a girl so that all are “on side” or “in check” from day one.
Great topic!
When I was pregnant I did not want to know the sex of the baby preferring to be surprised. The people that I have know that DID want to know the sex only wanted to know so that they would be able to buy clothes that were suitable for the gender or they wanted to make the baby’s room girly or boyish. Nothing at all to do with aborting the ‘undesirable’ gender.
@the Half Breed. I did not say that the culture was without merit, I only said that I was trying to find the merits and I was having a hard time.
@Lynn No worries. =)
Interesting thoughts everyone… Hm.
-TheHalfBreed
Lynn–of course clothing questions, decorating questions, naming questions, and general impatience to know, etc are the main reason most people (especially North Americans and Europeans) want to know the sex ahead of time.
And most other people don’t abort their fetuses (or at least not all of them) based on sex either.
However, very well founded research from a number of disciplines has shown that there is a problem in some communities and some places with just that issue. The problem is severe enough that governments have taken measures to curb the practice (by criminalizing it for doctors and patients) especially in India, or prevent it legally (elsewhere, eg. Canada), and that China is seriously considering changing its one child policy.
Well,
In the arab world the use of a ‘konya’ or tilte name is a sign of respect.
For example, people always call their elders Uncle or aunt(even if not related) another option is to use the umm and abu. it is ver very rare to see an arab call his/her elders by their first name.
As for why the first born son is used in the konya is because they see the family lineage as being continued via the son. Because girls will give children to other families while boys will give children which carry the tribe or family title.
Before islam, Arabs were known for their continuos tribal wars and a son was always seen as useful to carry the sword. Arabs had (and still do) have a high sense of hounor, and for them to lose their women to other tribes after losing battle is a great disshonour. It was also practice in pre-islamic arabia that fathers would burry their recently born daughters to save them selves from shame of maybe one day loding their daughters.
When Islam came, it abolished the concept of prefering a boy to a girl and abolished the unhuman practice of burrying young girls. In this life Children are named to their fathers however it is believed that in the afterlife (heaven) people will carry their mother’s name.
Simple Saudi-thanks for the reminder about patrilineal transmission of names, as opposed to just the patriarchy we were focussed on (patrilineal and patriarchal are overlapping but not the same eg. Judaism is matrilineal for religious inheritance/ identity, but patriarchal for the rest).
oops premature submission–Simple Saudi-Thank you as well for reminding us about the role of Islam in ending female infanticide and advocating fair treatment and education of girls. Also tribal practises regarding women varied in pre-Islamic Arabia.
Lynn,
With as critical as I am about Saudi, and Arab regimes and cultures as a whole, even I know there are positive things about Saudi and wider Middle Eastern culture.
The first would be the way they treat their elders. How many nursing homes do you find in the Middle East? Unless the elderly adult is in need of serious medical care, they will always be kept at home with their families whereas here in the West they are shipped off to be hardly seen again.
Family, and it’s importance is something we could look at here in the West with our dysfunctional nuclear families.
Thanks for reminding us Simple Saudi that the sons are the ones who continue to carry the family name. While the females retain their family name the children take the father’s name, hence why Saudi husbands and wives generally have different names. I say generally because I know a number of instances where cousins have been married to one another while having the same family name.
Abu Sinan – ‘The first would be the way they treat their elders. How many nursing homes do you find in the Middle East?’
Sorry Abu Sinan, that’s not necessarily a given positive. If I was old and infirm I would much rather live in a good nursing home with trained staff than with a child that may not have room for me in their home or only has me because they feel it is their responsibility but they do not have the resources to do so. But I have known numerous families right here in the US that have the grandparents or elderly aunts or uncles living with them by choice or they had to be dragged kicking and screaming because they didn’t want to leave the independence of their own home to live with one of their kids. The only people I have known that have had family in a nursing home was for that very reason. Nursing, as in late stages of alzheimers or dementia.
You must know that dysfunctional nuclear families are not only found in the West or with non-Muslim families.
I didn’t really go through all the comments, they are too many. But I believe someone pointed this out already…
Dropping the daughter’s name for the son’s isn’t a Saudi thing. Historically this is how Arabs did it for 1000’s years, Islam came around and the practice wasn’t really forbidden (up to my knowledge)…It just stuck through the generations.
But when you come and think of it, technically we are a segregated society, so I would think it would be acceptable for a male to switch names, since surrounding men will probably identify the boy more than the girl
Welcome Rami! And while I may not wholeheartedly agree with the switching of names, I do understand and relate to the last paragraph of your post.
Mohamed, Abdo is the greatest! He is ridiculously fabulous!
Now about the subject post so I don’t get cracked on the knuckles again by teacher.
I can remember when kids were younger, you were talking to other moms or dads and you could not remember what someone’s name was, you would say, so and so’s mommy, so and so’s daddy. You learned their name later, but then it was just that.
Also, you would tell your kids, here’s a basket of cookies, scoot over to so and so mommy’s house.
Our neighborhood was like this all the time.
Is there anything to the possibility that when having born children, the name Umm or Abu becomes a right of passage in a way? Kind of like when a person completes Hajj, they get the significant title of having completed it before their name after they return home. ???
I also think about the Prophet having said “Heaven is at the feet of the mother” … is there anything to when a woman becomes a mother, her status changes and with it comes the, idk, title of Umm?
Same to for the father, Abu?
this kind of issue makes me soo sad because people will defend it saying it’s culture and why can’t you leave our culture alone, but it is more than culture of simple tradition – it is harmful to children. Overall, I find any kind of favoritism among children soo sad.
I think it’s a really evil habit. And I can imagine how it must feel for a girl how she is suddenly pushed aside, and her mummy is not her mummy anymore.
One of the little things that have a great impact on the developing mind.
I remeber meeting a muslim family once at a picknick spot, they had quite a number of kids running around, my friend asked: ”How many do you have?” and thefather answered, ”We have two children”
Uh? we counted five!
”Yes, two boys and three girls”
That puts the girls in their place allright: they’re not even counted!
I find this disgusting! And the sham excuse:”It is cultural custom” is total crap!
As if a ”cultural custom” is ok just because some stupid, unfair, deluded, ancient morons have allowed it to become a custom!
This is a really bad custom and should be changed right now!
Maybe the father considered his girls as blessings – rather than simply children – from Allah.
But you know…as I am hearing from more Saudis, I feel like it is more of a cultural custom…particularly with how it is considered more respectful to not make open reference to a wife, the same respect is also shown to daughters, particularly as they get older. (think of this in the culture perspective)….I’m not saying I necessarily agree but trying to put the shoe on the other foot and seeing how it feels…
Carol, that shoe is causing me blisters on that foot as well!
I realize Lynn that perhaps especially so for an American who has grown up with the freedoms and basic rights that it can be very difficult to understand let alone swallow the unique cultural traits and customs of Saudi Arabia. As I’ve been saying ever since I started my blog, Saudi Arabia is contrasts and contradictions!
I don’t think for most families this is about errasing the girl at all, nor is it about showing preference, necessarily in the household. My FIL always held a preference for the girls in the family and let the boys know it. Even my husband has a weakness for his girls that they can give them those big old eyes and say “baba…” and whatever the request is he’ll give in. But he is still known as Abu Jihad and Jihad swears he has a harder way of it. Although I should point out that Jihad can get what he wants to he just has a problem with timing and getting into more trouble lol.
I do think that one has to consider a few things
1. that the family line continues with the son, not the girl. The tribal name will be given to all the sons children, the daughters children will take on the tribal name of the daughters father.
2. Girls tend to not hold the responsiblity of caring for the household like the first born male. Parents will one day become dependent on that first born male who will hold the responsiblity to care for them, provide for them, take them in his house ect. Although this isn’t necessary for all families, a lot of it depends on their economic status, but this is what is the norm.
3. girls move out become part of another fmaily moreso than the boys. Boys tend to stay within the family home,or area, or building depending on the situation so again you have an issue of caring for and monetary support from the male that is not put on the shoulders of the female.
I think when you consider such things and I’m sure there are more aspects of this but my brain isn’t completely turned on today, that one can begin to understand the ‘importance’ of a male child in the family. not that girls are doom and gloom for we as Muslims can refer to the hadith about anyone who raises girls in the proper way will be granted pardise.
Personally I take issue with becoming just ‘umm” whoever after a child is born. It was like all of a sudden I ceased being my individual self and became the extension of my womb. The pressures to reproduce here are unbelievable and I can’t help but cry for the women who are unable to. But that is a whole other topic.
My eldest sister stuck to her guns and uses the kunya with her daughters name till this day.. her now ex-husband started using his sons name as soon as he was born. His excuse was that he did not want his daughters name being mentioned by people.. lol
As many can tell I am Om Lujain, (mother of Lujain) which is my baby girls name, I am currently pregnant, and some of the family members are already telling me they hope I bring a boy so I can become Om Mansour (My husband is still called Abu Mansour by many of his friends- (Its his dads name- and he has been called that well before we were married)… So we shall see what happens after this baby is born.
Nazingha…I might just assume its more about family tree and not about erasing the female if mothers that had only daughters were referred to by their first daughters name (some are but not alot)…and not by some as yet unborn son or other male name…it just seems so disrespectful to the little girls in the world that are flesh and blood…and yet seemingly are not worthy of bestowing the title “umm” on their Mothers….just sad from where Im standing.
Before patriarchy hit humanity, and changed it for the worse, family trees were kept in the female line. Which makes far more sense anyway, as mothers contribute more to offspring as fathers do.
In Arabia the heritage of horses is still followed by the female family tree, Lord and lady Blunt were amongst the very few Westerners who understood the Arab horse-families when they went to buy horses.
Of course it is disrespectful not to mention girls, to consider a son more worthwhile, and to consider it indecent to mention a girls name??? WTF????? What the hell’s wrong with a female’s name? Women are not something shameful which needs to be hidden!
And bedu, we still have some of the same utterly demeaning and insulting habits in ”the west”, especially if for example ”Mary Snodgrass-Smith” is referred to as ”mrs John Snodgrass”
I think it’s too disgusting for words: as if you are not a sentient being on your own account sfter you’re married you are only an appendix to some man!!!!
Aafke:
Your hatred for men is overwhelming.!! Are you by any chance…you know…..I’m just wondering….
[...] I read Bedu’s recent post, Saudi Arabia- Understanding Umm’s and Abu’s, I became inspired for this post. I suppose I should say it is a rant, but I am genuinely curious [...]
‘Women are not something shameful which needs to be hidden!’
Look at it this way Aafke, It is just for the girl’s own protection. If people were to know her name they could make up something about her and then her father would have to kill her, you know, for honor’s sake.
When was the last time you heard of a son being killed for bringing shame to the family?
I don’t mind being called Mrs. my husband’s name. It is rare though and the only time it would happen is in formal situation, or an address as in Mr & Mrs My husbands name, or if they didn’t know my first name. I certainly like that a whole lot more than being a thing that isn’t even worthy of being a part of the family after getting married. I don’t buy the way they try to sell it as if it is about me keeping my ‘independence’ by keeping my own name I see it more as keeping a seperation between the two rather than how I personally see marriage as a merging of two families to create a new one.
Saudi man: I am a realist, I am against hypocracy and discrimination, I am always speaking my mind, I am enjoying myself when I’m ruffling a few feathers here and there, I am always willing to point out unfairness or ridiculousness if I see it.
And to answer your question: I really like real men: Men who are honourable, strong, decent, honest, fair, tough, cool, loyal and intelligent.
Don’t blame me if you, or other men, don’t stand up to those qualities, that’s all in your own power…
Kunya system intrigued me for a long time because we don’t have brothers and our parents were called Umm and Abu (my name). What I have understood is this:
In pre-Islamic Arabia there were matriarchal tribes in which for instance a child would be known as Fatima bint Khadeejah rather than Fatima bint Muhammed. But the patriarchal tribes were more in number and were more powerful. They also disliked the existing matriarchy. It was this hatred against matriarchy that gave rise to greater value of a male child. So while kunya may begin with the first child’s name, if it is not a boy it is replaced by the first boy’s name.
This also had importance because when a couple became parents of a boy they felt safer in the tribal culture – you wouldn’t want to mess with Abu wa Umm Asad! More boys meant greater tribal power and family safety.
Like Nzingha points out, it has always been important for Arabians to have loads of children which was associated with power. A female slave was automatically freed when she gave birth to her master’s child. Imagine the important of the womb for those enslaved women! Barren ones were no good. There is actually a lecture by a well known sheikh who uses some supposed hadith to claim that a barren woman is as good as a straw mat lying in the corner of the room!
But I get the feeling that Islam came about to do away with it and that is why I feel odd when people insist on using kunya upon conversion to Islam. All the great people in Islam were not known by their children’s names: Muhammed, Khadeejah, Aisha (she had no children), Fatima, Ali, Omar, Usman, Safia, and many others. They were known by their fathers’ names.
The case of “Umm ul Mumeneen” is unique because most of the Prophet’s wives didn’t give birth to any child from him. Also, though the wives are known as “Umm ul Mumeneen” the Prophet is not called “Abu al Mumeneen”. “Umm ul Mumeneen” may have been used to warn men against humiliating the wives because the entire ummah would protect them and further justifies why kunya is switched to a male child’s name for protection.
But people were called umms and abus of all sorts of things. I always thought that Abu Jahl’s (father of ignorance) real name was quite nice – Amr ibn Hisham. And Abu Hurairah’s (father of the female cat) real name was Abd al-Shams (servant of the Sun). Abu Hurairah was a name given to him by the Prophet and after his death it is reported that Abu Hurairah insisted on being called Abu Hurair (father of male cat) claiming that that was what the Prophet had always called him.
My son’s best friend is called Abu Naser. He is five years old! And the poor fellow was made to study Islamic studies for a whole term before his parents came to the school to complain. He isn’t Muslim but for some reason kunya is now associated with only Muslims although that is so not true.
Sorry for the long comment, Carol. I feel awful especially after Aafke’s post but this topic interested me
I really do not mind having “multiple” titles such as Mom, Grandma, Mrs. Abdullah, Carol, Umm Jon….I’m secure in my individuality yet know that different people in my life look at me in their own way depending on the role I play in their life. I don’t have a daughter but it makes me wonder if there were some way to combine the names of kids somehow or if anyone was ever called by the family name Umm or Abu Malik for example rather than by the first name of a child? Just another thought…
Achelois,
I enjoyed your comment and learned much more! Thank you.
‘Abu Hurairah’s (father of the female cat) real name was Abd al-Shams (servant of the Sun). Abu Hurairah was a name given to him by the Prophet’
I would assume that the main reason would be because his name was an obvious pagan name which is unacceptable for a muslim. I wonder was his daughter named Hurairah? Seems very odd to decide to call someone father of the female cat or even more odd, Father of Ignorance? WTF? Doesn’t sound very honorable to me LOL.
Bedu- Dunno about calling someone an unborn sons name.. lol never ran into that one. We have several family members that have only females the fathers are called abu.. whatever the oldest female is. Same for some friends of ours. soo…. dunno maybe that is just a family thing.. or maybe that is mama in law wanting more grand kids.. boys preferably. I started off with the twins so never went through a transition… other than being suddenly referred to umm.. rather than my name.
Lynn- Abu Hurairah was called that because he used to have cats hanging about him and he cared for them. I have no reference to him having children at all. So it wasn’t an insult at all.
I didn’t think that the name Abu Hurairah was given to him as an insult. I was just curious where it came from. The ‘father of ignorance’ name though, that IS odd and I can’t see how it could be a compliment. I don’t understand why they MUST have Abu or Umm even if they don’t have kids. Makes no sense to me. My name should be good enough. If someone hears something about me as Umm (my first born) and they don’t know my first born’s name then how do they know who is being referred to? I mean really, how many Abu Mohammeds are running around in one town?
Nope Abu Jahl one of the strongest opposers of the Muslims during the time of Mekkah wasn’t given that nic name as compliment. He was known as Abu Al Hakam father of wisdom so as a play on that came Abu Jahl.
For Abu Hurairah I don’t think it was about must having a name of abu for something. But perhaps seeing a grown man who was followed around by several cats and he didn’t have children or a family I could see where the name came up.
When I didn’t have children I wasn’t umm anything. But as I stated above I don’t get the whole negatiion of my name to begin with. But I’m not highly insulted everytime someone calls me Abu Jihad either.
I think people would identify you the same way if one said Lynn and there was someone who wasn’t sure which Lynn. Lynn Smith down the street, or Lynn Warren from the next town over?? One would be idtenfied by others means, wife of, daughter of, lives in that area, works at this place, ect ect.
And there are many Abu Muhammads, but usually these terms are used within a setting where there is some familiarity. one would only refer to me as Umm Jihad if I 1. introduced myself that way or someone else introduced me that way 2. they are family 3, they only know my son (if it is they only know my daughter I might be Umm Mariam ect) 4. They are family friends who have some knowledge of who I am.
It is kind of like having a nic name.. ones real name might be one thing but they prefer to be called by something totally different, or it is just a name that attached to them at some point and they can’t shake it loose.
Guys/ladies please!
Its just a nickname!!
Its not a way to prefer one sex over the other! I feel like people are making a ruckass over something silly :S
In Arab Culture Women are always looked after, there it is very rare to find a single mother trying to mkae ends meat on her own… She always has someone to look after ther and support her whether its her father/unvles/brothers/sons, etc…
The first boys name is commonly used because he is the deffender of the family. He is always responsible to look after his sistes when they need him wheather his sister is older or younger than him. Its not an option its a duty. The least he can get for his support of his family is a silly konya that neither he or his sisters care about at all!
I have an older higly educated sister who is married and working and making a better salary than I am! If she ever asked me for anything I would scarafice what I have to support her. Her children are like my own and If (god forbid) her husband was to leave/pass away, my home would be her home. This is the way most Arabs live!
So please stop condeming an entire civilization for what 5-10% do stupidliy in the name of arab manhood and honour!
The konya is just a nickname! cause people feel uneasy casually calling you by your first name. It can be your first born son or first born daughter it can be your father it can be your mother or it can be one of your traits. It is not a means to erase a daughters presence!
Konyas are usual in the form: Abu or umm(father/mother of) or ibn or bint (son/daughter) or it can be father/son of a trait or Al-(the) of a trait.
As for the story of Abu-jahal (father of ignorance) was given to a promenant arab of the quraish tribe who was among the first (and most fierce) people to oppose islam when it started hence the nickname (abu jahal) which was meant as an insult. To the other opposers of islam he was called abu-alhakam (father of wisdom).
Simple Saudi–interesting points regarding other forms of the kunya including a the role of traits. Thanks.
Simple Saudi,
As you and some of our other Saudis and Arabs have pointed out, there are logical reasons behind the kunya which are not meant to be uncomplimentary at all to the woman. But again, I still say that the kunya and preference of the male is again distinctive to the arab culture.
‘She always has someone to look after ther and support her whether its her father/unvles/brothers/sons, etc…’
I do truly understand that you consider that a good thing but a LOT of people do not when they look at the bigger picture. I don’t know of any women who are educated who would choose to be a dependent of someone else. Independence is so highly cherished that one might choose to live in a box that they paid for themselves rather than be supported (read controlled) by someone.
Lynn
In my experience there are many educated women who rely on their “dependence” on others to simultaneously pursue their goals.
North American style independence is not for everyone, and North Americans are not always as independent as they would like ot believe. Most of us live in states of interdependence.
Not all support is control, and not all dependence maleficent–although I certainly appreciate that the Saudi has a unique system even with in the Arab/Muslim world.
Lynn,
having someone to love you and care for you when you need them is something all humans want especially women who have a better emotional intelligence than men. Like I said My sister has a Phd (you cant get higher than that in education) and is making more of a salary than I am here in saudi.She definetly doesnt need my money nor does she need my intellect, Yet I am Always here to support her either financialy or emotionaly or any other way IF she needs me. Caring for my sister and this responsability placed on me is not a way of humiliating my sister or making her inferior.
It is a known fact that women enjoy the company of others and naturally have alot of empathy and strong emotional bonds. Women and Men are not created equal no matter how badly you want to believe it. The truth of the matter is that both men and women have things that they exceed in and are adept in. Men and Women complete each other.
You dont need a silly Arab like me explaining this to you, I’d ask you to go read “Men are from Mars Women are from Venus” This is a highly respected western author who says women and men are sooooo deffirent it’s as if they are from different planets!
I have visted the US and europe on countless occasions and I see women always complaning about why chivelry is gone? why do their families not care?… Women have been demanding to be equal to men to the point where men are starting to treat you like men.
Is it a bad thing to be born in this life a girl and know that there will always be someone to hug you and comfort you when you need them? If you keep pushing away the people you love in the name of independence you will find yourself one day alone.
I know How you feel in independence terms, I always used to have a hard time with my dad in that he was always pushing me to do things and I wanted my “independence” in making my own dissisions. When my dad tells me to do something its not because he is placing his authority on me but rather he loves me so much he doesnt want me to do the mistakes his life experiences have taught him.
In the case of the sexes who knows better about men than men? who knows better about women than women? thats why if a guy is to get married he gets his mom and his sisters involved cause they would know his bride to be properly. similarly when a young woman is to get married she can rely on her father/brothers who love her to properly investigate the husband to be.
sorry again for my long posts :s
Simply Saudi – if all Saudi men sounded like you I am confident there would be many happier women! (smile)
@Simple saudi – hi, i liveds in KSA a long long time ago, however let me tell you there’s a big difference between chivalry and what goes on there in the name of “protecting women”. I’m independant and choose to retain my name even after my kids were born, As for your question, no it’s not a bad thing being born a girl, but in KSA ???? i would say it’s a sad thing not necessarily bad. Please don’t tell me they want to protect women, that suffocation is not protection. There are a lot of good cultural values
in saudi, but that’s not what’s being debated.
Women can be cared for and loved and protected , without supressing them or erasing their identity, Having lived in 3 diff countries for a majority of my life, i found living in KSA the most demeaning – as a women, and this was inspite of a progressive strong husband who cared. It ’s the culture and the demands the society places, one may be a progressive parent raising their children both boys and girls as equal but infortunately socienty doesn’t accept that.
Please one can be as independant as one chooses and still be loved and withing the confines of a family. independence does not drive away relationships, supression does.
Hi Radha,
Thank you for your insight. I am not a woman and have no right to claim anything in their names.
It is sadly true that Saudi society has alot of contradictions and flaw but please bear in mind that we are a people that have been dragged from a medieval desert life to a modern world with TV/internet/cars/electriciy etc… in just 70 years.
We are a people with an internal cultural shock and identity crisis. I for one don’t like giving ourselves excuses but I can promise you that we are changing.
I have lived in Saudi all of my life and I can tell you I have seen alot of social changes going around. The reason we change slowly is because we dont want to lose our identity or lose the good things in our culture.
You are right that there are families that use their powers to oppress and their are girls that are treated like nothing. But I want to stress that this is not the norm of what goes on. American Bedu has stated in another topic that saudi’s are generally secretive which is probably why outsiders never do get to see the other side.
While I understand that Saudi is a “young” country as far as modernity etc is concerned…but I might also add that it seems Saudis have no problem incorporating all aspects of “western” life…such as music…dress…education…english…etc etc…but the one thing they cant seem to imbrace and encourage is the western concept that women deserve their own autonomy…their own agency…so it matters little if she has a huge family around her to comfort her and hug her and give her whatever she wants etc…because Im sure many of those women want the one thing they seemingly cant have…the right to decide for themselves what happens next in their lives…simple…the right to choose their own path and when and how they will live it.
Chiara- ‘In my experience there are many educated women who rely on their “dependence” on others to simultaneously pursue their goals.’
I was not referring to ‘independence’ as the goal, not while trying to achieve said goal.
I don’t know what you are talking about when you say ‘North American style independence’
We in North America, raise our children (both sexes) to become independent individuals. That is the goal of a parent from birth on, that is the purpose of education so that you are able to provide for yourself. I have never met a student that did not have that goal in mind. Ok, if you look at how seriously my son takes school it may not appear as though he ever wants to be independent but rest assured, he does! LOL
My relatives are not North American and they all seem to also raise their kids with the same goals, independency.
Simple Saudi – having someone to love you and care for you when you need them is not what I am talking about when I talk about being independent. Key words there being- WHEN you need them.
Do you have any brothers? If they needed you would you be there for him or is he out on his own? Considering that your sister is better off than you, If you were down and out financially would you move in with your sister so that she could support you or would that bring you too much shame?
‘I have visted the US and europe on countless occasions and I see women always complaning about why chivelry is gone? why do their families not care?… Women have been demanding to be equal to men to the point where men are starting to treat you like men’
I must live in a different US than the one people keep visiting.
‘Is it a bad thing to be born in this life a girl and know that there will always be someone to hug you and comfort you when you need them?’
My son was not born a girl but he knows, just as my daughter does, that there will always be someone to hug him and comfort him when he needs them. That is what we North Americans call ‘family’. Girls are not the only ones who need that.
‘If you keep pushing away the people you love in the name of independence you will find yourself one day alone.’
I don’t think that we have the same definition of independence.
Radha, exactly! Thank you.
Oops, I of course WAS referring to independence as the goal.
Simple Saudi:
Although I do believe you are doing a good job in your counter arguments, but the thing is why should we be in a position to defend ourselves. This is our culture, our religion, our society. It would not be right for me to tell Americans how to run their lives, and their country, to close down bars, to have segregated school, to cut down on teen pregnancies, and pre-marital sex, yet they see it as the right and duties to correct what is allegedly wrong with Saudi society.
Calling our culture medieval, a culture where its descendents have contributed so much to humanity in the field of medicine, math, astronomy, aeronautic, doesn’t sit well with me. Why can’t just everyone realize that each culture has its own distinction, and differences, and accept it.
Lynn:
I’m amazed how people can readily see others misgivings, yet completely forget about what’s goes on their own backyard. Can you tell me how many homeless people in America? 2 millions, 3 millions now why would a country that is the richest in the world can’t feed and shelter its own citizens. How does that saying goes ‘ Those who live in glass houses….” I think I’ll stop now.
A Saudi man,
‘This is our culture, our religion, our society…’ you are absolutely correct. However, it is also the culture, religion and society of the women who are offended by YOUR culture, religion and society. Just because some aspect of your culture has been around forever does not automatically make it palatable for all who live there.
I am very sorry that you feel as though you have to be on the defensive. I didn’t think that anyone was telling you that you had to change anything at all but individuals are entitled to their opinions.
I have to wonder where you get your statistics about homelessness in America. But I don’t think you want to go there as some kind of proof of Saudi superiority. Check out Bedu’s post about homelessness in your country.
http://americanbedu.com/2008/07/08/the-poor-in-the-kingdom/
I have to tell you that I have never, ever seen a child beggar in the United States (and I rarely see an adult one). How often do you see them in KSA?
I don’t know how much may have changed since 2007 but then it was reported that around 83,000 homeless children were roaming the streets of Saudi Arabia.
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/07/04/09/10117040.html
speaking of women and independence, what I feel saddened is by how many (too many) Saudi women I see who are much less mature than one would expect for their age. The young college woman for example still acts more like a 14 year old due to the ’sheltering’ that goes on. And what I mean in this case is that there has not been enough stimulation or encouragement to motivate them to reach out beyond the glass house of keeping beautiful, dressing fashionably and flirting with the ’sanctioned males’ they are allowed to be around. It saddens me to see new female college graduates sleeping in till 5/6pm, then when they finally get up it is too make themselves up as a fashion plate and go troll the malls. What kind of a protective life is that? What life skills are these women being taught? They are biding time until marriage but then after marriage how much does their life really change? I have tried to encourage some of these young women whom I know to at least do volunteer activities (they were not keen on applying for actual jobs) and not waste their days sleeping in so much but sadly I’ve not been successful. Sorry…but this aspect of lifestyle and culture I cannot condone.
Lynn, didn’t you say you live in Michigan? If you go to the large cities, you will see a good number of things. There are many homeless, beggars (child and adult with or without pets), as well as unbelievable poverty.
It’s reported that in Michigan there are 125 municipalities with a higher child poverty rate than in the state average. Although, being in Michigan, as you wrote and if I recall correctly, you are, I’m sure, aware of the difficulties facing your state’s economy.
Hopefully, the stimulus package will offset some of this and help to create jobs and help stabilize state fiscal economy. Additionally, oversight should be eagle-eyed by the populace, not necessarily, or solely, by those upon the Hill, whose winds of rhetoric are felt globally, not always to our benefit. It’s not all what’s carried on C-Span.
Throughout the country, we are hoping the S.P. will be appropriately allocated and not just become pocketed by those whose greed got us into this mess in the first place.
Carol, there was a time where the elders in the family, those who were themselves learned and educated felt a responsibility to share that in a “home-schooling” approach.
There are three things when you see an injustice:
1. Do something about it
2. Speak out about it
3. Hold it in your heart (but this is the lesser of them)
What are you doing to make a better day? To ease the burden of another?
sigh…bedu, thank you for your last comment – it is a sore spot with me as well. I enjoy volunteering here in the USA and would also love to work, but, alas, my visa does not allow this. I can and do intern however.
BTW, if you could please move my interview to anytime other than April 11-19, I am going away and will not be available to answer questions at that time.
BACK TO THE SUBJECT … how is it after 1400 years that these harmful customs still stay with us? Why wasn’t a new orde swept in with Islam?? It is because to “sell” a new idea/religion you need to keep your audience. Similar to St. Paul condoning non-circumcision to pagans in Europe who wished to convert, even though early Christians were a sect of Judaism and Jesus’ brother St. James, the head of the early Christian church in Jerusalem adhered to all Jewish ritual.
All great leaders need to compromise, and the old customs linger to give people comfort in times of great change. However, you must admit 1400 years is a long time for the blatant sexism that reigns in arab culture. And do NOT argue with me that it took the ‘west’ longer… Arab culture is of a more modern time and has access to all sorts of communication, including a common language, electronic media and computers!!! t
ps i wished to write “order” not orde.
Susan, yes I was born and raised in Detroit (and still live in the area) and I have never in my life seen a homeless child with or without a pet. Granted people are having some difficulties right now but still, I’m not seeing homeless children begging on the streets or spending their days selling gum in order to help their families survive rather than being educated in order to gain yep, here comes that word again. independence.
http://susiesbigadventure.blogspot.com/2009/02/still-she-smiles.html
Poverty does not necessarily equal homelessness and poverty here is not the same as poverty in many countries. You can’t even begin to compare the poverty of an American child (with all the social welfare we have) to the poverty of a child in India, Africa or even Saudi Arabia.
This post was not about homelessness or poverty though was it?
Lynn — as one who has indeed lived in countries where homelessness and poverty abound, believe me, there is NOTHING like it in the US to the extremes I say. How many have had the opportunity to see Slumdog Millionaire? It does accurately portray the slums and people living in those slums of India. And yes, there are “professional” rings of beggar children “pimped” by an adult and yes, some of the children are deliberately maimed and disabled to gain greater sympathy and therefore “donations.” It is not as bad in Saudi Arabia but it is increasing. Usually I’ve seen the most beggars (adults and children) in the Makkah/Jeddah area (usually umra or hajj overstayers) but more are also showing up in Riyadh.
That is correct. In the “early years” they were not known as “Christians”
I also found it interesting that there are several reports of where Mary went afterward. There is a house in Ephesus, which is notable to both Christians and Muslims. Although, there too is a place in the usual region where she is said to have lived the remainder of her life.
“Sexism” existed in the two preceding Islam. This is evident in both Paul and Peter, do we remember the famous line of Peter’s (interestingly around this time of year in the Church’s calendar), when Magdalene (who is noted as the Apostle to the Apostles) went to where the men were after having seen Jesus risen, and as he requested, reported this to them.
Peter (and I think Andrew) said why would he (Jesus) send a woman to us. Levi, on the other hand defended her. Albeit, this is in what is considered a heretical gospel.
I also have come to think that what Jesus experienced to become Christ, was and is still a rite, a migration to God – Allah, who is in my guesstimation more likened to El, where the process itself is more like YHVH … the process of the sorting matrix without the vowels.
Lynn–thanks for the comment and opportunity to clarify.
Re: ‘In my experience there are many educated women who rely on their “dependence” on others to simultaneously pursue their goals.’
I meant I know highly qualified brilliant women who have simultaneously used their husbands’ positions of power to advancetheir professional career more rapidly than they would have been able to had they not been married to that particular person. I have very little problem with this, especially since they probably would have succeeded (more slowly, and perhaps not so well) on their own. They also have tended in my experience to be very generous with others.
And then there are the other women, not so brilliant, yeah okay sort of qualified, who have advanced in their professional life, mostly by their husbands’ positions of power, and would be an embarassment, and rightfully directed to other pursuits without their dependence on this “support”. Fortunately they most often are kept at a level where they do the least harm. They are also in my experience less generous with others though not always.
Re: North American style independence
I mean the style of US individualism, coloured by Calvinist Protestant ideals of autonomy, and the myths of the frontier, which Canada often borrows. In fact Canada comes out of a more Roman Catholic/ Anglican collectivist tradition, with large doses of less dramatic evolution by (boringly orderly) government organized Westward colonization, and constitutional lawyer debates towards national independence.
This is a more exaggerated form of individualism, than in European cultures (or even among African Americans, and Hispanic Americans), or certainly than Arab and Asian cultures.
I have argued with non-North Americans that we do indeed have family values and support and treasure each other, but family structures and expectations are and do look different across cultures, as does independence and dependence–or as I prefer “interdependence”.
Homeless people can be found in many countries. Where there are blog posts and articles about homeless in KSA there are plenty on the homeless in USA as well.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/feb2003/cold-f05.shtml
Slumdog Millionaire on India is one and have we forgotten In Pursuit of Happyness?
[...] Achelois or Abu Zeus? American Bedu is having an interesting debate on her blog on the use of Abu and Umm + first boy child’s name. In Arabic culture, people are [...]
Carol, I just cannot, for the life of me, understand how this world can allow people to live that way. It is so not necessary and it breaks my heart. It pisses me off when I find out that the reason for it is due to people who insist on maintaining their ‘cultural’ habits whether it is caste related or the the undereducating of women.
Simple Saudi, and A Saudi Man
I agree with your comments on the Arab culture of family values, while setting apart your comments on American culture. It seems the main problems with regards to women’s rights and human rights in Saudi Arabia have as much or more to do with the Al Saud/ Wahabbi-Salafi alliance, and with rapid modernization as with anything else.
Academic (as opposed to sectarian) scholars of Islam have documented an increasingly convervative trend regarding regilious interpretation, women’s rights, and human rights over the last 200 years culminating in current trends. This is much like convervatism within the Roman Catholic church (Vatican style), forgetting that earlier on priests married legally, etc.
Mariam–I think when you say “Similar to St. Paul condoning non-circumcision to pagans in Europe who wished to convert” you mean St Paul, in order to fulfil his mission of evangelizing the Greeks, argued to St Peter and company, that the Jewish requirement for circumcision be dropped for Christians, as the Greeks had very clear esthetic and philosophic preferences for foreskin retention, and very few adult men then or now relish the thought of an adult circumsion.
Carol I thank you for the comment below:
“speaking of women and independence, what I feel saddened is by how many (too many) Saudi women I see who are much less mature than one would expect for their age. The young college woman for example still acts more like a 14 year old due to the ’sheltering’ that goes on. ”
I had noticed that girls were becoming very spoiled and just follow whatever TV tells them. At first I thought it was just neglecting or overspoling parents but it never dawned on me that this habit of segragation/staying home could be a cause for it…
I admire and have alot of respect for smart independant women.
You have given me something new to think about.
Thank you.
@A Saudi Man,
“Calling our culture medieval, a culture where its descendents have contributed so much to humanity in the field of medicine, math, astronomy, aeronautic, doesn’t sit well with me. Why can’t just everyone realize that each culture has its own distinction, and differences, and accept it.”
You are looking back 100’s of years by that statement. There has been many cultures before us and after us. It is what we do today to improve your situation that matters. We have relied on that excuse of our foregone culture to the point that we have been numbed to our existing modern issues. The Arabic world is in a similar situation to what Europe experienced in the middle ages. All you have to do is look at the news side bar to your right and you will be reminded of this with the headline “Saudi clerics demand ban on women appearing in media”.
Peace…
Lynn:
I’m still trying hard to find something positive about your culture.
Please don’t take this personally.
Lynn, I appreciate your experiences and am glad you’ve not seen this plight on the streets.
But that you indulge in broadening a topic, elaborating where you want, and then having broadened, try to hold someone else to a rule you don’t follow yourself, is hypocritical. Am I correct in that you are Baptist? I remember Ahmad Deedat’s debate with Jimmy Swaggart.
Though don’t you agree that poverty is poverty no matter where it exists. It’s condition is deplorable, particularly within countries whose wealth and advantages are substantial. And even more so within the countries who haven’t the means, it is particularly tragic.
If you are in Detroit, I considered that you would be aware of this. These days, as you know, even the most independent amongst our own culture is feeling the sting of poverty. There were people who’ve made $70,000 per year, who are now working at fast-food restaurants.
If you haven’t seen this, still existing condition, in the United States, then I would challenge you to expand your experiences and relationships outside your own “comfort levels.” There are areas of great poverty existing in our own country.
http://www.brooklynrail.org/2009/03/express/inside-detroit-bergmanns-getting-ghost
This is from the Financial Times:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/2b815a94-0863-11de-8a33-0000779fd2ac.html
It may not be Mumbai or Slum-dog Millionaire as Carol referred, but this is the United States. We’ve a tendency to involve ourselves with the speck in our brother’s eye, when there’s a plank in our own.
We have a great deal to attend to here and our interrelations with other countries should be on a level of progressive and mutual respect for humanity and creation, not oneupsmanship.
We’ve a tendency to forget the sword of Damocles is with us too.
Lynn, I appreciate your experiences and am glad you’ve not seen this plight on the streets.
But that you indulge in broadening a topic, elaborating where you want, and then having broadened, try to hold someone else to a rule you don’t follow yourself, is hypocritical. Am I correct in that you are Baptist? I remember Ahmad Deedat’s debate with Jimmy Swaggart.
Though don’t you agree that poverty is poverty no matter where it exists. It’s condition is deplorable, particularly within countries whose wealth and advantages are substantial. And even more so within the countries who haven’t the means, it is particularly tragic.
If you are in Detroit, I considered that you would be aware of this. These days, as you know, even the most independent amongst our own culture is feeling the sting of poverty. There were people who’ve made $70,000 per year, who are now working at fast-food restaurants.
If you haven’t seen this, still existing condition, in the United States, then I would challenge you to expand your experiences and relationships outside your own “comfort levels.” There are areas of great poverty existing in our own country.
brooklynrail.org/2009/03/express/inside-detroit-bergmanns-getting-ghost
This is from the Financial Times:
ft.com/cms/s/2/2b815a94-0863-11de-8a33-0000779fd2ac.html
It may not be Mumbai or Slum-dog Millionaire as Carol referred, but this is the United States. We’ve a tendency to involve ourselves with the speck in our brother’s eye, when there’s a plank in our own.
We have a great deal to attend to here and our interrelations with other countries should be on a level of progressive and mutual respect for humanity and creation, not oneupsmanship.
We’ve a tendency to forget the sword of Damocles is with us too.
Achelois, it’s considered at times that the pursuit of happiness does not necessarily imply or state its acquisition.
@susan – We live near detroit – and i havn’t seen many beggars on the street, poverty exists everywhere, in every country and doesn’t have anything to do with culture. In india i found the poorer they got the more kids they had ( some kind of reverse logic) .
As for everyone feelnling the sting of poverty, we personally know a lot of families that have lost an income but still manage to eat. yes detroit is facing bad times, but should an uneducated unskilled laborer really be buying a $300,000 house living beyond his means and therby falling into poverty !! not sure , so what if he has to work in fast food restaurant, atleast he has food to eat.
There are millions of kids who go hungry, that is true poverty. places in the world where there are no soup kitchens.. and hungry kids stare at you, that is true poverty, not defending the united states, but i personaly feel atleast there’s some kind of security net by the govt here the other places ( i can safely say india) there is none. The gap between the have and the havenots is vast in india, The govt can do only so much , as responsible citizens we have to do our share.
I have never in the US seen the amount of poverty that i have in india and saudi. maybe it’s just well hidden. maybe not .
Radha – perhaps it is not reverse logic but what else can a couple do freely when they are poor?
I’d also like to comment that I have seen the children and the adults scavenging through the dumps along with the dogs, rats and cows in India trying to find something edible to take away that ongoing feeling of raw hunger in their belly. That, I don’t see in the USA or KSA even in spite of the multiple homeless one encounters in WDC or Makkah. In fact while Saudi may not have soup kitchens like the USA, in my observations, they are quite charitable towards giving to the street beggars unlike in America where the homeless are ignored or India where they are considered a pain to get away from.
@Rawi, *standing applause* – when will you give up your habit of flooring me?
as a native saudi, I agree with Lynn. I cannot see how anyone would wish to emulate arab culture. And do not blame colonialism for everything…but what have we done lately??
If it weren’t for oil, we would still be wandering around in the desert. We support gov’ts that manipulate us through religion. We live with corruption and bribery everywhere – even to get a business license.
Not mentioning female family members?? Just the type of the iceberg, Lynn. And remember, I started the first comment by discussing the use of the Tammam. What a blow to any kid’s ego. It’s never a boy’s name.
As a linguist, I always feel one can look to the language of any culture to see what values are admired. Abu binat indeed -
Lynn March 23rd, 2009 at 4:28 pm :
Well I don’t know the exact number of homeless people in the States, but I read somewhere it’s close to 2 million plus. I can get you the exact number and the source if you wish, either way it is a big number.
If you have not seen many homeless people, or panhandler s in the State, that’s because either you must be living a very sheltered life, or you are in a complete state of denial. Have you been to New York City, have you rode on the subway, then you can tell me if they exist or not. Have you been to L.A. and drove by Compton, or Watts, are those people sleeping on card board boxes are just extra from a movie set. For God sake there are tent cities now in Arizona, and Nevada.
As for the number of Saudi street kids which you stated, you do realize that the overwhelming majority of these kids are not even Saudi, they are brought in the country by their parents who are professional beggars during Hajj and umera season. The government try its best to curtail their activates, but the harder they try the more they come. It is a very lucrative business being a panhandler in Saudi Arabia.
Bedu, I do believe every female college graduate should be out there trying to find a job instead of sleeping all day. Some choose a different path and do have very demanding job in multinational coronation. In order for Saudi Arabia to progress; they need to exploit the brain power of half of their population.
A Saudi Man – yes; I do know of some Saudi women who are wonderful examples who have used their education and brains and I do all I can in my power to support and mentor them as needed. I’ve given up on the ones who just want to sleep and waste away.
Radha, I will respond “to” you, rather than @ you. To my ears (not @ my ears), it’s more polite (e.g. “Why you gonna come @ me like that?” – “I came *to* him” rather than “I came @ him” or “I spoke to him” or “I spoke with him” — I did not speak @ him.) @ seems a little aggressive even though I’m sure you don’t mean it like that.
While you / Lynn may not have seen beggers, though in Detroit the methodology for acquisition is possibly a little different. If you live west of Detroit, for example, you may not see it there.
The $70,000/per year income earner was not an uneducated laborer purchasing a $300,000 house, as you say, he is a Master’s degree holder and was a successful businessman, independent in every sense, yet his company’s lay-offs came. So if you know it’s happening at the higher levels of business, you can only imagine how it is at the lower end. Some of us don’t have to imagine though.
In the inner city, it’s not surprising that people go to dumpsters behind grocery stores and restaurants salvaging produce, bread, whatever they can to eat. It’s not surprising that people go to recycling centers (dumps) for furniture. I’ve seen people “dumpster-dive” … I’ve spoken with people who’ve gone to these centers for furniture.
I know there’s a caste system in India … I know they will break and disfigure children’s limbs to garner a better begging potential. I think there’s enough naturally existing tragedy in the world without having to intentionally create it.
And I will stop this post here …
A Saudi Man, exactly, even if a person feel they don’t want to “get their hands or clothes dirty” going to the inner city – they can ride the subway or a bus emerging from a poverty stricken area, they’ll get an education, no doubt about that.
Mariam, excellent comment, yeah, Saudi Arabia went from utter primitiveness to ”developed in a matter of decades, but so did Japan, and they did it a lot, lot better!!!
Also fully keeping their own culture intact!!!!!!!!
Well, histories, cultures, and civilizations are taking a severe accuracy beating here, but I’ll just leave it at that.
Having witnessed both third world and North American poverty (though not yet India’s), I can say that with the exception of Amerindians (whose economic and health stats are closer to those ot the 3rd world than the rest of Canada’s), poverty in North America is harsh, but no where near the depths of that in the third world. Government social and medical assistance, and public education, prevent the poor in Canada and the US from the travails of those in the 3rd world.
I haven’t yet been to a 4th world country–Haiti, Yemen, Bangladesh,etc– but shudder to imagine.
Coolred38, You can really hit tha nail on the head
A Saudi Man: * Calling our culture medieval, a culture where its descendents have contributed so much to humanity in the field of medicine, math, astronomy, aeronautic, doesn’t sit well with me. Why can’t just everyone realize that each culture has its own distinction, and differences, and accept it.
”Medieval” is a term used for a period in time when Europe was a primitive society, Europe had actually moved backwards, people were under the yoke of an extremely agressive and suppressive form of Christianity, women were officially delegated to second class citizens,a and were considered property, to be handed over from one man to the other man. Property which changed hands at marriage. Science was forbidden, many books were forbidden, writers and scientists were persecuted and burned. Impotent men accused women of witchcraft and the women were burnt.
And that actually is exactely where Saudi Arabia is now… So I think the term ”midieval” is perfectely appasite.
And what do you mean witch scientific achievements and culture? any muslim scientific achievement stems from many centuries ago, and weren’t done in the Nejd area but in Persia Iraq, Spain etc.
As far as I can see the Wahhabis from the Nejd have actually detroyed the culture of the hijaz, Qatif and the whole gulf-region.
And there are no homeless in KSA? You should get better informed about your own country:
http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentID=2009011626816
The Middle Ages in Europe spanned from the 5th to the 15th centuries and from the Dark Ages following the military collapse of the Roman Empire caused by the onslaught of barbarians, to the High and Late Middle Ages difficult to distinguish from the Renaissance.
Although the Dark Ages were indeed dim, the Church and the Monasteries preserved art and learning. The great universities– Oxford, La Sorbonne, and Bologna– were founded in the middle Middle Ages. The Golden Age of Al-Andalus and Arab culture of course helped the Europeans rediscover their classic culture and prepare the Renaissance.
So calling a culture Medieval may, or may not, be an insult.
.
@susan – agreed there may be cases of businesmen facing layoffs, i was in specific pointing to a lot of live beyond your means type poverty. As for layoffs yes they are in large numbers, guess that’s why our parents advised saving for a rainy day.
As for india we all do what we can to help, but again the vast teeming population is a problem, although i see more and more peope realizing tht they should stop with 1 or 2 kids. The caste system exists but contributes to poverty mostly inremote areas and villages, most of the poverty is because of lack of education – unable to educate the younger generation and being able to lift oneself up — wish there were more people to help thee unfortunate childen. Even if evry earning indian were to support a child we could soon eliminate poverty — i know wishful thinking.
And no i havn’t gone into inner detroit in a long long time. we did di a medical camp a few yrs ago and i saw rampant laziness and unwillingness to work. I figured my time was better spent elsewhere.
Chiara, I didn’t use the term ”midieval” in it’s complete and enceclopedic content, but as it is colloquially used. And when ”normal” people, use it, it generally refers to a time of ignorance and supression, also called ”the dark ages”.
AAfke, excellent point about Japan. However, their culture is not fully intact by any means, which is sort of my point. Saudi should have changed its culture yesterday and we didn’t, and now look. Also, the Japanese have an amazing work ethic. Islam teaches people to be submissive and this translates into laziness and passivity.
Aafke, your concern is no doubt regarding a repetition of a hammer.
Radha, the approach you present to the elimination of poverty in India, is certainly, and easily translatable in other cultures globally. Though never ceasing to tilt at windmills.
You are right Mariam, but that’s a moot point: to which extend is a society changed? and to which extend should one ”blame” another society for that? The Japanese have had a checkered history:they hve welkcomed new ideas and technologies ate several times in their history, They imprted writing (older Japanese characters are chinese) weapons end even money by the shipload from China. They then transform and perfect these into something very japanes, and then they closed their borders completely, They have done so several times through the ages. Leaving japanese colonies stranded, and to fend for themselves.
But still, every culture on the planet has been changed and influenced by other cultures.
What matters is not to shut yourself off from other influences, but to choose wisely what is important, assimilate wisely, and keep your roots.
Aafke–my comment was directed generally, to all using the term Medieval. The Early Middle Ages were indeed Dark, but I think many normal people associate the term with the later period: troubadours, courtly love, fabulous tapestries, gothic architecture, the printing press, Crusades, guilds, Robin Hood, Abelard and Eloise, etc.
To all heralding the Japanese–despite the “setback” of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it is a long civilization that was very modern in technological and military ways, and rebuilt (with massive amounts of US aid) after WWII. The place of the Japanese woman remains submissive despite education and working. Except for its commercial success, and success in the arts, I’m not sure it is a role model. Just my opinion, having been there briefly, studying some, and treating Japanese patients.
rawi – LOL Cracks me up! Good one!
Susan – LOL NO I’m NOT a Baptist! Has no one really picked up on my disdain for all things religion?
Regarding poverty – You cannot begin to compare the poor of the US to the poor in India so don’t even try. I’m very sorry that I did not read the whole article about the ‘Trevails of Detroit’ but you know what? I started to read it and I couldn’t get far past the whining about not having salted roads and I just couldn’t get the picture of the Slumdog Millionaires out of my head. Go whine to one of those kids about how hard it is in Detroit, how daddy lost his job and and now you’re going to have to eat ground beef instead of steak for dinner. I’m sorry, that’s how I was raised, if we ever had a complaint about something, we were always reminded to be thankful because there were always plenty people that have it way worse without even the options of improvements in the future. I can’t tell you how many times I was reminded about those poor kids in China that didn’t have enough food to eat while I wasted mine because I didn’t think it was good. LOL
radha – Exactly! Not to minimize the great tragedy that has come upon a lot of people during these hard times but a lot can be said about the choices that people make in life and how it can lead to their downfall. We used to make fun of those old people that had lived through the depression and constantly reminded us to save for the rainy day? I guess they were on to something.
A Saudi Man – I never denied that there are homeless here in the US I do not lead a sheltered life. I see it but all I am saying is that in my opinion it just doesn’t compare and it seems to me to be disprespectful to the people that are truly impoverished.
Aafake: “And there are no homeless in KSA? You should get better informed about your own country”
And perhaps you should actually read my entire comment before commenting on them, there is no where in which I mentioned that there are no homeless people in Saudi Arabia, although the numbers are small. Many business men and philanthropists around here acquire an entire apartment buildings and allow poor, and needy people to live in it rent free. These kind of buildings are spread all across the country.
“And what do you mean witch scientific achievements and culture? any muslim scientific achievement stems from many centuries ago, and weren’t done in the Nejd area but in Persia Iraq, Spain etc.”
Just for your information I was referring to Arab cultural as a whole, and all Arab originated primarily from two tribes Qahtan, and Adnan which is in the Arabian Peninsula (modern day Saudi Arabia) and Yemen. And In case you did not know Iraq happens to be an Arab country.
So while your ancestors were up to their knees in blood from slaughtering each others, mine had a full fledged civilization and making full contribution to the advancement of mankind.
I’ll make a few general observations on the discussion above. We all appear to be holding on to certain presumptions about culture, history, and change — without critically interrogating any of these presumptions. Someone above has already questioned the problematic use of word “medieval” (as an aspiring medievalist, I must applaud!). Even a use of the word medieval in its popular connotation is problematic, because this understanding doesn’t get us anywhere. Not to mention that the usual connotations themselves are so heavily flawed. For example, scholars of medieval women’s history have been demonstrating the immense complexity of medieval women’s lives: point being, that when we speak of the “Dark Ages” with horror, all we’re doing is trying to feel better about the oh-so-modern times we live in, and forget about the despicable systems of oppression that women continue to face in the world today.
We need to get over our presentist biases, and the peculiar progressivist notions of history that we’ve inherited from post-Enlightenment modernists. The fact is, cultures evolve, always already: they are always a tricky balance between continuity and change. When Saudi Arabia as a state claims to be preserving culture, why are we so naive as to take that claim at face value? Saudi Arabia’s predicament is a definitively modern predicament. The “shari’a” law that it so desperately holds on to is not at all a traditional law, but a traditionalized law that is articulated as the return to an imagined past, and is thus already something new, something different. And so, analysing Saudi Arabia’s problems by blaming it all on a “medieval” “culture” doesn’t actually ever help us solve those problems — because all we’re doing is delude ourselves both about what modernity means and what culture means.
I’m tired of all this non-sense about your civilization versus my civilization, my history is bettern than your history, etc, etc. Every civilization has been always infected by other civilizations, so let’s get over our egos already.
Over and out.
Theres 116 (!!) comments so forgive me if someone already said this, I just can’t read that many.
Here in Egypt it is the same, but my husband explained to me that it is considered improper to say a woman’s name in public with unrelated men around. In public my husband will not call me by my name but by HIS name instead, to “protect” me.
Sounds like BS right? Bas I will tell you a Cairene story:
My husband and I were walking along the Nile one evening and were overtaken by a group of three teen aged girls all giggly and whispering as they walked. One of the girls leaned over and slapped the far girl’s arm and said, loudly, “khalas ya Habiba!” (not her real name, I don’t remember what it was.)
Coming from the opposite direction were two young men who happened to hear girl #1 saying Habiba’s name and quicker than Jack Flash one of them turned and began to follow and flirt with the group calling out Habiba’s name. Ya Habiba ya Habiba! Or whatever stupidities.
Most young men in Cairo are unscrupulous knaves and will take an opportunity to exploit something as small as a name.
Still BS but at least explains why.
Its all well and good to point out history and civilization and beat our collective chests over what was achieved etc…but using some very apt words…
“what have you done for me lately”
When we speak of Arab history we are speaking of Islamic history as well…so tell me Saudi Man…what has either Arab or Islamic history done for its people LATELY….who the hell cares what you accomplished centuries ago…the people who benefited from that era of enlightenment are well and truly gone…its the people of Arabia and more importantly the Islamic ummah that should be benefiting now from it…and are they?
There is no longer an interest or advancement in the areas of Science in Arabia simply because most muttawa and sheiks etc dont see science as compatible with Islam…therefore not much research and progress made in those areas.
Ive yet to meet an Arab (personally speaking here) that cares much for math…or can even do beyond basic math in their heads…just no interest. Yes I know…there are those that do care…but generally speaking as whole…Arabs dont care for math either.
And I might point out…if there is an Arab that cares for those subjects and wishes to pursue a career that pertains to them…studying abroad is the best bet for gaining a viable and progressive education…because the education in Saudi as in many Gulf states just sucks…educating its population with a worthy and pertinent education just doesnt seem to be on the top of the govts lists…because an educated population is a thinking population…yes…and most of these Arab govts dont really want a population of oppressed peoples that are educated enough to think about their situation and are also capable of coming up with ways to change it…just a thought.
As stated before…unless very strong changes are made very soon in Arabia…when the oil runs out…I personally dont think it will take all that long to “get back to basics” so to speak.
Lynn, thank you for sharing that you’ve a disdain for religion and how you were raised. How did you find your way to a list about Saudi Arabia?
Coolred, this comment was posed before … I think it was from Abu Sinan and Carol. From what I’ve noticed, it looks like Saudi Arabia is making decisions about what will happen when the oil runs out. As well they are being responsible in seeking to employ environmental technologists.
This might help in keeping in sync with the trends:
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/search/saudi+arabia?x=0&y=0&template=arabianbusiness
Rawi,
Great comment, I couldn’t agree with you more.
Also loved this: “Someone above has already questioned the problematic use of word “medieval” (as an aspiring medievalist, I must applaud!). ”
LOL!
There’s others out there like me?! Yessss!
Here, Fordham’s contribution, the Medieval Sourcebook:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/Sbook.html
Thanks Susan.
Now I’ll be glued to the internet all day……
I don’t like feeling like a Mother Hen here…but come on….comments and opposing views are fine but let’s do so without direct attacks at specific individuals.
Coolred, you write “Ive yet to meet an Arab (personally speaking here) that cares much for math…or can even do beyond basic math in their heads…just no interest. Yes I know…there are those that do care…but generally speaking as whole…Arabs dont care for math either. ”
What do you do for a living? I am not one much given to defending Arabs, but I will here. I work in the Intellectual Property field, specifically involved in electrical engineering, telecommunications and the wider IT field.
I will tell you that at my office here in the metro DC area about a good 15% of the scientists and engineers here are Muslim, many from Arab countries. Without the Arabs and Muslims here work would be drastically influenced for the negative.
Engineers and scientists are VERY well regarded in the Arab and Muslim world. As a person who hired engineers for a couple of years here I can tell you that I found Arab engineers SUPERIOR to those of their Western counterparts, mainly because of their better math abilities.
For my application to have our marriage recognised by the Saudi government I had two senior supervisory engineers I work with here write references letters for me in English and Arabic. One was Egyptian, the other Palestinian. I had to sit down and decide which Arab guys I wanted to write letters for me because there are SO many here.
When you say that math isnt respected in the Arab world I would have to say that couldnt be farther from the truth. Engineering is probably the premire job in the Arabic speaking world and engineering rests entirely on math skills. Differential equations, fuzzy logic, advanced calculus, numerous physics classes, that is just the begining.
As a matter of fact, there is SO much math required for an engineering degree, especially electrical engineering, that at my local univeristy it only requires one extra semester to get a physics degree when your major is electrical engineering.
You are just SO wrong about math and Arabs I cannot explain it enough!
The real problem is not the lack of engineers or qualified scientists, it is the lack of programs in their home countries. It is all about brain drain. Why would a Jordanian stay in Jordan with an engineering degree when they can come work with me and make $150,000 a year?
It is about money and oportunities. There are neither in the Middle East. Set up good jobs and opportunities in the Arabic speaking world and many of these men and women would come back and give the Japanese, Chinese and Americans a run for their money.
Instead the failure of the Arab governments leads to a brain drain that benefits all of the major technology companies here in the West who are more than happy to use their engineers.
Rawi–thanks for agreeing with and acknowledging my contribution, and for elaborating. I agree with your comment.
Sabiwabi–glad a number of us are in good company.
What Arabs have done for us lately:
Ahmed Zewail-Egyptian (undergrad Egypt, grad USA) Nobel Prize Chemistry 1999;
Naguib Mahfouz -life-long Egyptian Nobel Prize Literature 1988;
Dr. Abdullah Al-Rabeeah–currently Saudi Minister of Health, international leader in surgery to separate conjoined twins;
Edward Said–Egyptian, politics aside, revolutionized literary theory and criticism and socio-political theory, former President of the Modern Languages Association which dominates Faculties of Humanities throughout North America;
Dr. Elias Zerhouni–Algerian, current director of the National Institutes of Health of the USA.
Yes they are individuals, and yes exceptional, but all are “genetically Arab”, most are Muslim, and all were raised in Arab culture by Arab parents, and educated in their home countries –at least through high school and many beyond.
I leave out people like Michel Shaloub, and people like the blog commentators here and their family members, all of whom seem to be contributing to society in an admirable way.
Actually I do know a fair number of SAUDI WOMEN who have majored in physics! They may not be working or using their degree but I have no doubt that if they chose to apply themselves in the field they would excel.
Abu Sinan–agreed –from an Arab Medical Resident: “Most scholarship students from my country are Drs, most from Saudi are engineers”. At one point in time the whole complement of the Arab student association at one of my universities were male Egyptian engineers.
I could not have said it better myself Abu-sinan, well put. Let us not forget Dr. Ahmed Zuwail the Nobel Prize winner, an egyptian who got his BS degree in Alexandria, Egypt before moving on to the United Sates. There are many other brilliant cases and many brilliant Arab engineer who graduated from IVY leauge schools.
May I interject something?
It was ARABS who invented the “zero”……..nuff said.
Chiara, I’m just getting all geared up for Ren Faire season, can you sense my excitement? HA!
How I wish I could remember his name but when I co-hosted the special Saudi National Day program on Saudi Television 2, one of the gents I interviewed was a Saudi who although did not even complete his degree had 6 patents to his name! He was/is a brilliant individual. And most of his patents were in the realm of solar energy…not a light subject by any means.
Abu Sinan…I did write “personally speaking”…and did not say ALL Arabs do not like math. From my little world on this planet…living here in the gulf for 23 years…from MY personal experience..the Arabs IM surrounded by do not care for math…it was a personal observation so how can I be wrong?
Yes…engineering is a very sought after career here in the gulf along with other countries…but alot of the students that start out pursuing that career eventually fade and quit cause they cant handle the math involved…again..speaking from personal experience. The ones that do make it…good for them…they should be proud considering the obstacles they no doubt overcame.
Then again I could be speaking from a point of view of students that suffered a govt education and all its faults and not those who possibly enjoyed a private education and all its encouragement.
Uhmm, I have yet to meet an American that cares much for math!
Actually, that’s not true. Because the smartest mathematicians (and computer scientists) I have met were often Americans. But when I came to the US for college, I carried all the baggage of stereotypes that generally fly around: that Americans are horrible at math & science, etc. I was proven grossly wrong, and I won’t even share the embarrassing experiences whereby I had to admit my own lack of intelligence. BUT, at the same time that I was faced with unbelievably smart Americans, I was surprised by how many of our math TA’s were Iranians: i.e. a big number of the math PhD students at my school were straight from Iran. In fact, in general, the undergrads at my school had a culture of complaining about TA’s who couldn’t speak proper English. Why? Because almost the entire crop of science grad students were imported from abroad: East Asia, India, Africa, Mid-East, etc. Seriously, go to any top school in the US, and the number of Arabs, Desis and Muslims that are pre-meds will really begin to confuse you about who’s the world leader in technology.
Bottomline: it’s futile to try and explain progress and change by referring to ideas and intelligence. These generalizations are too reductionist, and simply false. Instead, the answer lies in money and power. The biggest myth about the Renaissance is that Europe made a historical leap because of science/knowledge. Entirely ignored is the then shifting context of global trade and monopoly that set the very grounds for those ideas.
Sabiwabi–yeah, sure right, that foolish little zero, but what have THEY done for us lately –oops remembering how computers were invented (binary math 0/1 0/1 0/1)
Renaissance fairs–or often better-termed Middle/High/Late Middle Ages fairs–Huzzah!!!!
I would join the Society for Creative Anachronism but they enact too many battles, whereas I would prefer to sit about in beautiful brocades, doing tapestry, playing the lute, and composing poems and courtly romances.
oh yeah the zero war @ our home is so funny, here’s the gist of the argument.. ( i’m indian and my spouse is saudi),, please let this not get blown into a who’s superior debate this is just what my jobless daughter dug up in WIKI a few min ago ( while i attempt to teach her to make sambar)
Arabs used the function of the zero that we know today, but they did not say it was a number.
One century after the Mayans, around the year 600 AD, Hindu savants invented too the figure “zero”. They also invented the position numbering. Arabs learned this figure system from India. They even called them “Indian figures”.
During the 10th century, these numbers (0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9), slightly changed, were taken over by the Europeans from the Arabs, like many other important items.
Rawi–Many start with high career ambitions and modify their aims in the face of reality–often, especially Middle Eastern and East and South Asians, wind up in my office because pre-med is not med and they have been indoctrinated to consider themselves failures, or their parents tell them they are, if they don’t make med school. Many try for a PhD in whatever from where ever to be able to call themselves “Dr” (leaving out the Drs of chiropracty, chiropady,optometry, etc).
Chiara!
As long as you let me WATCH the battles while we’re sitting over there on those brocaded tapestries….I’ll join ya (maybe we could add henna slinging to that list of hobbies too).
I simply cannot miss watching fine men in kilts weilding 50lbs weapons…..it truly is the only vice I still cling to these days……….
LOL.
Indulge me, fair lady!
(Hark, I doth sense Bedu hastening us to the debate page…I must fleeeeee)
Sorry premature submission:
Major cultural shifts are complex, and evolutionary rather than instantaneous; ideas/ science/ money/ power/ military advances/ and trade are usually interconnected.
Can we peer daintly from a balcony and receive a kiss from the winner?–okay then.
Last comment on this–the debate page deserves better substance.
Coolred, your wrote:
“there are those that do care…but generally speaking as whole…Arabs dont care for math either.”
When you were speaking for yourself, that is fine, but when you throw the “generally speaking” portion in as a way to define the entire Arabic speaking world you were out of bounds.
As for Arabs who drop out of engineering programs, that happens everywhere. I would be well suited to know as someone who was a part of an engineering program here in the USA.
The fact is, Arab children get much harder maths much earlier in life than their Western counterparts. Not only that, the extent to which they continue this into teen age years and beyond excedes the way things are in the West.
There is a reason why any engineering office in the USA is filled with Arabs, Africans, Asians and the like. The West, as a whole, doesnt put out enough engineers because the Western educational system doesnt put the emphasis on maths that other non Western countries do.
I remember reading a story about Chinese students. I wish I had kept the link, it was from a couple of years ago. It said that by the time Chinese students had graduate from their version of High School they had the knowledge of math that would match a begining junior university maths student here in the West.
Yep, thats right. a math student at university here would have to complete TWO years of university studies to match what the average Chinese student gets before they even enter university.
This is very common.
I guess to really meet people who like math it would help to be in a job or have a career in an area that requires a lot of math.
Where I work you cannot be hired without a load of university level math including very hard subjections like differential equations, advanced physics and calculus.
Where I work we tend to want to hire the people with the most math experience. We have a large amount of “Computer Science” types we could hire for the jobs, but why hire them when we could get a EE who can do the same thing the CS guys can do, but loads more maths?
Professional international comparisons of how students from different countries perform in maths and science abound, including by the OECD. Generally ,students in East Asian countries perform better than those in the West and the US is not necessarily stellar amongst Westerners (deliberately blocking out from my mind the rapid descent in Canadian performance
).
One friend dropped university math because the Chinese tutor’s English was dreadful, and he rarely bothered to speak it–easier to explain in Cantonese to the the Cantonese-Canadian students in the tutorial. She was the only female and only non-Chinese in the group.
“daintly peer” all you want, sweetie.
I’ll be wearing shades.
that’s the last silly comment, promise.
Serious comment @ Rawi:
You said: “The biggest myth about the Renaissance is that Europe made a historical leap because of science/knowledge. Entirely ignored is the then shifting context of global trade and monopoly that set the very grounds for those ideas.”
So true, good point.
‘Entirely ignored is the then shifting context of global trade and monopoly that set the very grounds for those ideas’
I guess the point is lost on me. Never before have we had a more global economy and free and easy exchange of ideas and knowledge than today’s world yet, look at how some countries just refuse to progress especially if it would look like they are copying the kuffar or if it would be going against the almighty ‘tradition’ !
Lynn
Can you please point out one country that is not actively engaging in the development of their sciences and technologies, under the banner of not “copying the kuffar”.
Abu Sinan…I bow to your superior knowledge on the capabilities of Arabs.
“look at how some countries just refuse to progress”
I’m looking hard. Frankly, can’t find any.
What I do find are some rather interesting things: like the US poking its nose into other countries’ affairs and trying hard to prevent them from developing nuclear technology. Oh, sure: once we have our own, what do the Iranians or Koreans have any business wanting to make some progress in science & tech!? Mind you, as a radical pacifist, I’m absolutely against weapons. But we all know the extent to which American progress in technology has been (and continues to be) driven by the military-industrial complex. Nothing unusual, that’s been the story of technology in any society, at any time.
We’ve all heard of the great Mr. Galileo’s enlightening discovery that shook the Church. What a free-minded spirit! But do we ever really think about the fact that the man spent most of his time developing naval arsenal? That he sued his own student, for patent infringement!? (The example was cited by George Saliba in a talk, from which I’m also drawing the following)
My point is very basic: advancement in science/knowledge occurs when a society has the money and the luxury to let some people study; when there are rich patrons to fund scholars. Of course, the process is cyclical, and knowledge then feeds back into the money (hence, scientists develop technology that is profitable). In other words, the formula is: wealth breeds science, which breeds wealth. Europe rose to power not because of some big flowery ideas thanks to the Renaissance. Rather, those ideas emerged because Europe became wealthy/powerful. Shouldn’t we also wonder why/how the Abbasids created the Golden Age of Arab civilization? Coz they had the money/power, and their philosophers/scientists could afford to think about high-minded stuff and spend their days writing flowery treatises.
Those of us in the US keep whining about close-minded Third Worlders not making “progress” (whatever that means). What we don’t realize (or I guess we realize, but would rather not admit openly) is that it is against American interest for these countries to progress. Coz then the US would loose its hegemony; we would loose our steady supply of oil, and our entire auto- and jet-based urban civilization would choke. Heck, why else have the American and Saudi rulers been bedfellows for so long?
I’m not an anti-Americanist by any means. I just think it’s important to understand reality, beyond the rhetoric. And lest anyone think I’m blaming the “West” for all the ills of the developing world, I’m not. I’m merely thikning aloud about the not-necessarily-pleasant reality of the social conditions of knowledge and progress. My other point is that “culture” as a mode of analysis/explanation is sometimes helpful, but often not. And in fact, many people are begining to abandon this rather abstract notion altogether.
Rawi–an interesting comment. However, it depends on how you define Renaissance etc. Most define these typles of periodizations as major cultural shifts whatever the structural shifts in monetary and military/scientific/technological power.
Other types of periodizations exist which empasize different aspects. Most Humanities students are well aware of the impact of power, money, and military might, to pick random examples, the Romans vs the Greeks (major shifts), La Conquista of Spain (same), the city state of Florence with the Medici and the Renaissance, etc.
Are you announce the end of “Culture Studies” as a discipline? I hear roars of approval from various quarters LOL
Are you implying an imminent Saudi cultural/military-industrial complex shift that would have all parents be Umm/ Abu + daughters name ? I hear roars of approval from various quarters LOL
Thought provoking post American bedu
.
But I believe the basic issue you have bought up -’Boys being given precedence over girls or given more importance’ exists in every society.
Look at the British Monarchy, even if a girl was born to Queen Elizabeth before Prince Charles, it would have been Prince Charles who whould have ascended to the throne and not the First -Born child, only because she’s a Female. Same thing with the Japanese Monarchy. And these are two of the most advanced nations in the world Technologically and Human rights wise also.
This discrimination of boys over girls exists everywhere in world today. In some countries like saudi ‘it’s-in-your face’ and they probably rub it in your nose for extra measure. But it is out there in the other countries, though it’s being cloaked in better finery and words.
Since when is science and technology the only means of progress?
‘Shouldn’t we also wonder why/how the Abbasids created the Golden Age of Arab civilization?’
More importantly, research reasons for it’s downfall. You can steal all the science and technology you want but if the social and political systems are corrupt there will be no progress.
desertblogger – I will not deny that the male preference may exist elsewhere but believe it is certainly magnified in Saudi Arabia.
Chiara: I’m totally with you on the question of periodization. I was only using “Renaissance” as sort of a scapegoat example. What I was basically getting at was what I realized from a lecture by George Saliba (I don’t know if that stuff has been published yet), who demonstrates quite convincingly the fundamental significance of the corollary ideas of economic monopoly and intellectual patents in understanding the spectacular rise of Europe.
As for announcing the death of “Culture Studies”, I’m not yet sure if that would entail my committing a career-suicide
And as for the Saudis, I honestly don’t know what’s imminent or not. All I can say is, I wish those lazy fools hadn’t been spending their oil money on lavish palaces and instead done something more productive.
Lynn: True, I definitely don’t think science/tech is the only means of progress. I was merely using it as one yardstick. More importantly, I was arguing that what we call “progress” (by which I assume we mean ideas of human social freedom, tolerance, etc) is more often than not predicated on material conditions. My main issue is with the progressivist conception of history that most of us have today, one that is informed by our conditioning in the Euro-American triumphalist narrative, such that our view of the past is colored by the present. We look at history through the end result, and use this same model to look at other societies that haven’t “yet” achieved that end result. This, however, is not how history works. (As for how exactly it does work, I’m still trying to figure that out.) Moreover, this view distorts the reality, making us think for e.g. that underdeveloped societies are somehow frozen in time, and that they need to modernize. In truth, these societies are already very, very different from how they were a 100, or 300, or 500 years ago. These societies are just as “modern” and if they are full or problems, then those problems are modernity’s problems.
I’m not an expert on the Abbasids, but I’m pretty sure that their downfall was nothing remarkable or unique. Moreover, they were probably no more or no less politically corrupt than, say, the current American or Chinese regimes.
Rawi–thanks for your reply and the rest of the comment. I thought I had detected a budding career in “Culture Studies”.
You are very good, and I agree with your points now that I understand them better! Thanks for introducing me to George Saliba–fascinating, published, and published online! 
As for the Abbasids, my “history of Spain” knowledge tells me of their Medieval brilliance, and that despite it they lost their empire in the usual way–rivalry for power from within, and rebellion by the conquered groups from without ie at the far reaches of the empire.
Thanks again.
still, none of this ”brillianc” happened in the Nejd, which is the ”culture” I
(I think it’s anti-culture) now imposed on the gulf region and exported in a kind of religious kolonialism, to the rest of the muslim world. Mosques and madrassas are built with Saudi money, spreading one kind of wahhabi-Islam and infecting Islam all over the world.
Aafke–I’m not sure I follow your argument and how it is related to the post, since the abu/umm + son’s name is an Arab as opposed to strictly Muslim or Wahhabi aspect of Saudi culture. The son preference pre-dated Islam, and as far as I know there are no statements in the Quran or the Hadith about the kunya except that one may name a child after the Prophet but not the Prophet’s kunya. Or are you saying Wahhabism reinforces it more by being more patriarchal?
@Chiara,
I think Aafke is referring to the comment regarding Islamic culture by A Saudi Man. That is the origin of the side line to distract from the main topic of equal treatment for mean and women in Arabic culture.
@A Suadi Man,
“all Arab originated primarily from two tribes Qahtan, and Adnan which is in the Arabian Peninsula (modern day Saudi Arabia) and Yemen. And In case you did not know Iraq happens to be an Arab country.”
That is false. All Arabs did not originate from the peninsula, the Arabic language did and spread with Islam to other regions. Many empires ruled the region which included Iraq throughout history: the Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Romans, etc. Further many Muslim scientists were not of Arabic origin. I guess you may not know all about these other cultures, since in Saudi history of other cultures is not taught.
The arguments that state we had a culture and others did not at a certain snap shot of history are intellectual acrobatics to avoid admitting today’s issues. I think we will do better if we focus on today’s problems with Saudi. We have a major one with how we treat women in our culture and you are trying to avoid addressing that.
“many Muslim scientists were not of Arabic origin.”
This is a well-known fact.
“… know all about these other cultures, since in Saudi history of other cultures is not taught.”
Not true, and BTW Islam doesn’t distinguish between Arabs or non-Arabs. As an example, most Muslims including Saudis consider “Sahih Al-Bokhari as the most accurate book of the prophet sayings. Al-Bokhari wasn’t an Arab, was he? Also, as aside note, the Islamic culture course (301) that I took in my undergraduate degree in KSA was devoted to all the Muslim scientists, philosophers, doctors, “foqaha’” etc who were mostly non-Arab. This course is taught to all undergraduate students no matter what there major is.
This Christmas I went to KSA, I met with one of my friends who is taking MA courses at “Um Al Qura Univ”. He is a student at the Islamic Dept. I had a look at the materials he was reading, guess what! he was reading for Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, besides other French philosophers. The books were written in Arabic. I assure you that he knew far far more than what I knew about them despite the fact that I took a course at a North American univ in philosophy. Perhaps, because I’ve read the material in English
I had no clue what some of those lunatics were saying 
— anyway, no one in class had a clue 
even the prof at sometimes he had no idea what he was saying 
.. I guess, I shall run away before my prof catch me talking about him in this Blog 
Khalid,
Most native English speakers don’t have a clue what those philosophers were talking about either! lol
I’m glad to hear that they are teaching that in KSA though I wonder how it is presented.
@Khalid,
“Not true, and BTW Islam doesn’t distinguish between Arabs or non-Arabs. ”
So you probably were taught in different Saudi schools than I did, where they taught you about the Egyptians, the Chinese, Assyrians, Babylonians, etc.
History as taught in Saudi schools is divided in 3 parts and those are the primary ones that are taught:
1) The period of the prophet and 4 Kalifas following him
2) All the Islamic empires following until the Ottomans
3) The Saudi family dynasty
Any other culture or groups mentioned in the Saudi history book are only from the prospective that they were the enemy and we defeated them.
Even the focus of the teachings is on power and battles with very minimal information about even the Muslim cultures. If you want to learn about other cultures then you have to get your own books, which are not available in Saudi. You will be lucky to find them in Arabic in places like Egypt or Lebanon if you have the means to do that. Even Islamic culture was taught at the university level as you mentioned, which is too late in my opinion.
This explains the lack of respect of other cultures that most Saudi’s have. It is simply that our education system fails us in presenting a balanced and diverse view of history.
What I meant Lynn is that I might have a better luck reading about them in Arabic since English is not my mother tongue
.. They are presented the same as the English text. They are just a translation from the source language to Arabic. I’m planning to go over some of these materials in Arabic though. I’m sure it’s gonna enhance my understanding 
***Khalid is just hoping here*** 
Saudi in US–thank you, for your indication of the origin of the issue. I did realize that Aafke was carrying on a line of thought, but just wondered what her particular reasoning was, since it seemed important to her. It may in fact relate directly to the post, but the relationship is now obscured.
Genetically Arab, and culturally or linguistically Arab are often overlapping but distinct so the tribes/ cultural influences point to me seems immaterial except for very precise genetic needs (eg. medical).
Khalid–glad to hear that in your experience Saudi education is teaching different civilizations including within Islam, and continental philosophers. I love the latter “lunatics” in whatever language!!!
“It is simply that our education system fails us in presenting a balanced and diverse view of history.”
That might explain how the holocaust is generally portrayed either as a huge hoax…or as Hitler doing a favour for the Muslims of the world but not quite finishing the job he started…now theres a slant on history that could use some revision in the Arab world.
Saudi in US,
I was commenting about Arab lineage, and not about other dynasties that have come and gone in the region. Arab do originate from mainly two tribes which I previously mentioned, these tribes came from Yemen and the Arabian Peninsula (modern day Saudi Arabia) or Mecca if you wish, I don’t think anyone can dispute that. Just to let you know I was not indoctrinated by the terrible Saudi School system which withhold information about other cultures as you claim. From grade school forward, I was educated mostly in the west.
It’s funny how people tend to go overboard when they try to be too politically correct!!
[...] not so simple reasons for this fact. To begin with, from the time the Saudi male child is born he is revered. Even if a mother or father had a daughter before giving birth to a son and might have been known [...]