Because it is International Women’s Day it is easy for one to start off with everything that is wrong in regards to women’s rights and Saudi Arabia. But in my view, we hear so much of that why go in that direction just because it is International Women’s Day. The majority of women in Saudi Arabia probably are not even aware that for some countries and some individuals the day may have great significance. For them, it is just another day in their lives. And these women are likely women who are happy and content with their lives and know who they are.
However for those who take relish in reading of the lack of women’s rights in Saudi Arabia and viewing the Saudi woman as among the most oppressed in the world, I’d like to point out that Saudi women are consistently receiving more opportunities. These are opportunities in education, employment, legal rights, etc. I know there will be so many naysayers saying these are minimal and only because a “man” approved but guess what…that is a fact of life in Saudi Arabia. And this fact will not change until Saudi women (and not expat women or other groups) choose to take initiatives for changes – if they want them in the first place.
So in regards to International Women’s Day, yes, it is a good time to recognize those women who are making a difference. But the question is, what constitutes making a difference? Is it the women who ‘bucks’ tradition and is therefore viewed as innovative and progressive or is it the woman who is always there for her family and friends? That woman may not be highly educated but she is someone everyone knows they can count on. Her intentions are pure and she thinks nothing of making a sacrifice towards herself if it is going to make someone else happy. So which woman should be on the higher pedestal?
In closing this post though, I would like to solicit from readers which Saudi women they wish to have recognition on International Women’s Day and why. I wish to recognize my dear Saudi mother-in-law, Mama Moudy. She may never drive, she may never be seen uncovered, she may not be educated but she is among one of the wisest, compassionate, supportive (she accepted her son marrying an American!), kind and beautiful (inside and out) women I have met.
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Filed under: Freedoms, friendship, gender, relationships, Saudi Arabia, Women Issues Tagged: | culture, customs, gender, gender issues, Saudi culture, women
I would second your MIL’s honouring on International Women’s Day and agree that women are to be honoured in their diversity.
I think the day should be reserved for marking advances in women’s issues, and these always come not only by the efforts of women but by those of the men who support them, and have the authority to effect change.
Perhaps in that spirit, the names of Saudi men who have been instrumental in advancing women, as well as those of women should be eligible here.
As far as specific women go, just based on my reading, how about Princess Sarah bint Talal, who has spoken up for reforms giving women more rights.
PS an interesting article (from 2003) with the names of many Saudi women leaders in their fields, including physicians, media personalities, business women, artists and a poet: http://www.anvk.org/events/SDCGArabNewsArticle.pdf
courtesy of a conference in the Netherlands.
American bedu,
I congratulate all women everywhere who are living their lives to the fullest, waking up each day, and trying to make that day their very best no matter what their circumstances.
That does not take away from the fact that women are horribly oppressed in Saudi Arabia, and I think, unlike Saudi men, most of us do not relish in this fact but are completely repulsed and saddened by this fact. To imply that anyone relishes it is also repulsive.
At the same time, even though these women are treated as less than human, as evidenced by your blog, their courage to live and love under such circumstances bears witness to their intrinsic value on this planet and in the lives of their loved ones.
My sister-in-law Juman – It takes spirit and courage to arise from phy and mental trauma dished out by a man and learn to love and trust another. May you have many more year filled with Joy and peace.
Nurse Mushira — maybe she’ll read this maybe she won’t but she’s the best OR nurse there ever is …her sense of humour is fantastic..even in the face of open hostility.. go girl you rock. and thanks for resisting S’s ( my spouse’s) attempts @ stealing you away..
I’d like to recognize a Saudi woman who refused lots of working offers in order to be at the
doorstep of the home to welcome her children when they enter home after school. This woman never searched for a work, and yet she was receiving many offers from time to time. Once as an example, she took one of her children to the doctor, and by the time she was done from the appointment, the doctor offered her a position to work at the hospital. The doctor was impressed at her medical knowledge; and due to her fluency in Arabic and English, he offered a position for her to work as a mediator between the patients and the doctors. I’m not sure if “mediator ” is the right word here, but the job mainly is to talk with patients before doing operations and after. The doctor was serious, and directly he wrote a contract that was signed by the hospital (it’s one of the reputable Saudi hospital) to this Saudi woman. The woman took the offer and showed it to her husband to consult him. The Saudi husband liked the offer and encouraged her to accept it. This Saudi woman decided to refuse the offer for the reason mentioned above (to be at the
doorstep of the home to welcome her children when they enter home after school). This woman has 3 maids in her home, and they never did anything for her babies (even feeding them breakfast/lunch/dinner) I think this Saudi woman deserves recognition.
Thanks Chiara for the link
I had to smile when I read a word in it 
(Don’t ask me plz what the word is 
oops forgot my dh S . For your smile and sensitivity and putting up with me in all my moods.
oh and also for dealing so calmly with both the teenage menace we have @ home without wringing their necks.
Tanya, “women are horribly oppressed in Saudi Arabia”
I thought to test the statement you’ve just mentioned, so I made a phone call to my grandma. my mum, aunt, 2 cousins, and my sister were all there having breakfast together. I asked the 6 of them those two questions “Are you oppressed in Saudi Arabia? Are your rights as a Saudi woman taken from you?” All of them said “no, I’m not oppressed, and I can get all the rights I want.” Of course this doesn’t represent all the Saudi women; those were only 6 women, but I just thought to share so people who never lived in Saudi Arabia will not get enthusiastic
and speak on behalf of the Saudi women who can speak for themselves. This comment is not meant to discourage people who never lived in KSA to leave comments. Anyway, all opinions are welcome, and everyone can speaks to her/his heart’s content — non-Saudis and Saudis alike)
I’d have to nominate my dear wife, who aside from all of the BS she puts up with because of being a Saudi, still holds her head up high, got an education, has family and is devout.
Khalid,
I talked to my MIL, three SILs, four cousins by marriage and half a dozen female Saudis and they all say they were oppressed in Saudi and that is why they LEFT Saudi forever! They all lived in Saudi and they most certainly have the right to speak for themselves because they are no longer in Saudi where there is no such thing as freedom of speech.
As for “getting all of the rights they want”. I guess that is subjective. If they dont wish to drive, if they dont wish to come and go as they like, if they dont wish to live alone, if they dont mind having their careers picked for them, if they dont mind not having freedom of speech, if they dont mind not choosing who leads them, if they dont mind not being equal under what passes for Saudi law, then I guess you are right, they certainly can get all of the rights they “want”.
Here is to the Saudi women who someday, Insha’Allah, will SMASH all of these barriers and rightfully take their place side by side with Saudi men as their equals!
I’m a woman, and I’m Saudi and yes we’re oppressed. Those who don’t know it are simply brainwashed and dictated by the backward religious, and social systems.
Sad, but true!
Not true AbuSinan, no one chose the career of any of them. All of them can travel wherever they want, the time they want. They can’t drive in KSA, yup this was your only correct statement; however, they always have someone to drive them the place they want the moment they want. My sis whom I asked is a graphic designers, one of the cousins I asked is a nutritionist, and the other is a psychologist. The two cousins have a job that they chose by themselves, and my sister hasn’t graduate yet, and she received several offers from Saudi companies to make designs for them. My aunt who whom I asked, started her career as a teacher in a highschool more than 30 years ago(she even happened by coincident to be a teacher at the same highschool my mother was in, so she taught my mother
) She didn’t remain just a teacher during her career, she reached high positions in her career. Recently she retired. Only people from inside the KSA will make a change. Those who ran away from their homecountries will never make any change.
This reminds me with a Saudi female students whom once I met in Canada, she was in a scholarship from the Saudi ministry of high education. She was in her last semester of her Master’s degree. She was saying things like , (women don’t have any right in KSA, I don’t want to go back to KSA etc. things of that sort. Honestly, I had to smile to what she was saying. I wished I’ve told her, since you are oppressed dear
please don’t accept the 2000 CAD you monthly receive from the Gov, and don’t let them pay your study expenses. The irony of this all, this Saudi lady, after she got her Master’s degree, she applied for PhD degree, and the ministry accepted her request, and granted her scholarship for PhD too. Do you think she changed her opinion, no she didn’t, she is still oppressed. BTW, she is taking her PhD in one of the most expensive univ (tuition more than 10000$ a semester) Usually the Ministry of high Education they don’t mind paying any tuition (even for Harvard) as long as the student got admission from the university. Anyway, it was interesting because the people who were listening to her, didn’t believe her because what they were seeing in front of their eyes is the opposite of what she was saying. Even a Canadian girl made a remark and said, I’d not mind to be oppressed like you, and get a scholarship to study the major I want; I have to pay back for the rest of my life the loan I got for my undergraduate degree, and a masters degree is nothing but a dream for me that I hope won day will come true.
Pease to All
Khalid,
Amen brother, the irony, and the hypocrisy of the whole situation is that I once read abu-sinan state that his own wife is/was on a full government scholarship. Is not that like biting the hand that feeds you…I don’t know…
I would like to congratulate all the women nominated, and suggest that the Saudi men of this blog community be nominated as well, those who comment regularly and the ones (Saudi or non) who support their wives (Saudi or non).
Khalid–okay I took the bait. Thank you for the opportunity to re-read the article, and to do so more closely (though not a literary “close reading”
). My guess is the word “misconceptions”. Am I right?
The presentations by the Saudi women all sound excellent, and emphasized how far in terms of education and career opportunities Saudi women have come in the last 50 years. I liked especially the closing quote from Gerben Meihuizen, the former Dutch ambassador to Saudi Arabia:
“Arab women are very conscious of the value of their rich and glorious past and of their own traditions. These traditions need not block their more active participation in society, to the benefit of their own countries and to that of the Arab and Islamic world in general.”
“so which woman should be on a higher pedestal” ???
I didn’t know we were having a pedestal competition–I thought
it was about each woman having the right to live the life which
fulfills her. That may be in a traditional way–wonderful! or in
a non-traditional way–wonderful!
Sirius–I didn’t read either the post or any comments as suggesting a pedestal contest, but rather most, including my own, emphasized Saudi women in all their diversity. I agree with your final statement, and thank you for the opportunity to clarify.
Ameen to nominating mamma Moudi.
Khalid:
do you mean that because she received money, she should just shut up and smile? That’s close to bribery in a way, no? I give you money, gold, and diamond so just shut up and be happy.
Anyway, when she go back in KSA, PHD or not, she will be deny the simple right to drive a car, to vote (though in KSA democracy is still a dream for men too…) and she STILL will have to ASK for permission to do this or that to her mahram as is she was a babling child …
Would YOU accept that and say that YOU are free? I don’t think so and THAT is the irony .
“I congratulate all women everywhere who are living their lives to the fullest, waking up each day, and trying to make that day their very best no matter what their circumstances.”
Tanya, I definitely agree with your statement above – no doubt.
And that while it’s “Women’s Day” it follows, in womanly consideration, I would extend the same congratulations to the men of the world.
Anyone that cannot see the oppression of women in Saudi is blind with some kind of Saudi nationalistic pride or love or just not willing to confront the truth, like so many muslims today.
Please…let’s keep the comments on topic on the women. The men can be saved for a future blog posting!
I can understand where it would indeed appear a contradiction of terms to be outside of KSA on a fully paid government scholarship and have others (non-Saudis) here about oppression while they may like be struggling with student loans, etc. And the fact that some of these students are women also does seem to contradict views of oppression and being held back. But after all, this is all part of Saudi Arabia and its many contrasts and contradictions.
The women in KSA who want change are in their ways making changes start to happen…maybe in baby steps but they are doing it. It is just too easy for anyone who has not lived in KSA or been outside of KSA for too long to point fingers and say “this is wrong or that is wrong and this must be changed.”
Lastly, thank you Aafke for concurring with my own nomination of Mama Moudy as someone to be recognized during International Women’s Day.
Chiara,
my word was quite simple 
Find it somewhere around you soon 
Emma I’d not call this bribery — simply this is included in the scholarship; both Saudi men and Saudi women get exactly the same amount. From where you get your facts? How can you know she’ll not be able to work with her PhD in KSA? Have you ever been to KSA Emma? Have you ever studied at a Saudi Univ? Just to give you an example, I know a Saudi professor in sociology; he teaches at one of the Univ in KSA. during the semester they have the departmental meeting where both male and female professors discuss issues related to the dept. Just in that one Dept, in that one Univ, there are more than 10 profs in sociology. Now I wonder after reading your comment, how did those profs found work in KSA since they are Saudi women !! Just for the reference, I’ve recently read in the news that there are currently more than 100 Saudi women abroad doing their post-grad studies. I do believe (and I’m certain of this ) by the time this lady gets her PhD , she’ll be able to drive in KSA
it’ll take her 4 years to get a PhD , and driving is coming soon (I’m optimistic of this )
Khalid,
I got to love your mindset. Because someone receives a scholarship somehow that minimises their right to complain about their oppression? So you think that if someone gives you money they should be able to do anything they want to you?
You might sell you rights for money, but dont expect others to. Your comment makes you out to be the typical Saudi who thinks that because the al Saudi gives a small amount of charity to the people in their country that everyone should accept anything they are given and not complain.
Sorry, but a scholarship to go to school is not a bribe to shut up about the fundamental injustice that women in Saudi face from top to bottom. But, it is nice that you make it clear that you can be bought, but not everyone is willing to sell themselves.
Khalid,
It is kind of sad that me, as a non Saudi, has to correct you about the scholarship.
Saudi men and women DO NOT get the same amount of money. A Saudi woman, if she doesnt have a mehram (guardian) living with her gets about a thousand dollars a month LESS than a Saudi male.
So, for a Saudi female to ge the same money as a Saudi male, she must have a man from her family living with her full time. Call this “chastity money” if you want.
So think about the idiocy and basic unfairness of it. For my wife to get the same payment as a Saudi male counterpart she’d need her 18 year old son to act as her guardian.
Yep, you read that right, the only way a Saudi female can get the same money as a Saudi male is to have a man keep tabs on her.
So my wife, when she had the scholarship and was a single mother with two children, received a thousand dollars a month less than a similar Saudi male.
Over the space of four years that is $48,000. All because she was a female.
I am not sure if you were aware of this Khalid, or simply keeping it quiet because it looks so bad.
Khalid,
Again, I am not sure if you just dont know or are being deceptive. Women are not allowed to work side by side with men in Saudi.
This is similiar to the policy we had for years in the US called “Seperate but Equal” with how we treated our non white citizens. As everyone knows, such a system by it’s very nature cannot be equal.
As long as females are kept from working in equal work environments, the system will automatically be biased against women.
What we are seeing here is Saudi males arguing to protect their privledge. The basis of all of this prejudice and discrimination is tribal culture and the insecure nature of the men and their low self esteem.
A well educated, strong and secure man has nothing to fear from women, rather we love to be surrounded by women who are our equals!
Abu Sinan,
I can say that I have worked firsthand alongside with both Saudi men and women. In addition there are indeed some Universities which do also have male and female students side by side not only in same classes but put together in working groups as well.
Regards,
Carol
Khalid,
You are really too much. Who are you trying to fool?
You write “Now I wonder after reading your comment, how did those profs found work in KSA since they are Saudi women !! ”
Again, I dont know if you dont know better or are just trying to pass this stuff off to people who dont know.
Of course there are Saudi professors who are female, my Sister in Law in Jeddah is one. What you FAIL to mention is that the female professors work and teach at ALL WOMEN universities. They are NOT allowed to compete for positions and jobs at Universities that teach men.
You try to pass this off as equality? My SIL, a professor in Jeddah, has told us many times how her all female schools gets less funding and less resources than similar all male schools. More of that “Seperate but Equal” that isnt equal and is extremely biased again women.
Carol,
That is the exception to the rule. You must also keep in mind that as a Western woman you enjoy a set of privledges that Saudi women do not.
What do you think your opinion of the whole situation would be if you were a poor Saudi woman not married to a man of position? I doubt working side by side with men and going to university with men would be an option for you.
On the whole, Saudi is very much like America when it was stuck in it’s era of Jim Crow laws. But in this situation it is not blacks who are kept “Seperate but Equal” but women.
I work at the King Saud bin Abdulaziz University for Health Sciences. At least in the Masters program, there are both male and female students (together) and many times Saudi women (female professors/professionals) will lecture and teach both male and female students who are again, in the same room and not segregated.
Abu Sinan – addressing your comment of 7:37pm: No; I am not receiving any privileges as a non-Saudi. This is the standard procedure there for ALL employees — Saudis, non-Saudis, male or female.
Carol,
You prove my point. These are situations not availble to the average Saudi. Besides, you cannot compare “Health Services” to other sectors. By it’s very nature it would be almost impossible to segregate such a situation, unless one plans to staff their entire health service with men in which case the system falls apart almost instantly.
You come from a position and viewpoint in Saudi of wealth and privledge. You ought to keep in mind that 90% of Saudis do not have this same luxury.
Carol,
As a white Western woman in Saudi you most certainly do get allowances and privlidges that other Saudi women do not. This might affect some situations different than others, but I dont think anyone who has lived in Saudi would argue against the idea that Westerners operate on a different playing field on many different issues.
We had this discussion before, as when you went without hijab. As a Saudi you might very well have had an issue whereas a Western women you were much more shielded from such problems.
Your feelings about Saudi seem to range from one end to the other and not be consistant. I remember you writing awhile back how you were traveling outside of Saudi and were not sure if you were even going to be able to get yourself to return, other times your posts seem to glamourize Saudi, almost like reading an Aramco article.
I like the Aramco magazine. I like how it covers subjects not just Saudi Arabia, but when it does, I like how the articles are informative.
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200901/
Abu Sinan,
I think you have a wrong impression/perception of me! I am a very ordinary person and what I described in my work environment is normal and not an exception due to me and my nationality at all.
And you write earlier posts saying women do not have opportunities and yet when you are provided with info where they do have opportunities you are saying “those” are the exceptions. They may still be in the minority but they are solid active proof of changes and reforms.
It is clear that you seek and take advantage of any opportunity to bash and criticize Saudi. Yet although you are married to a Saudi, you’ve never been to the Kingdom and experienced the Kingdom and its customs firsthand. So you speak through your Saudi family members experiences which given the challenges they have encountered are also biased.
In regards to my own views, I have stated repeatedly Saudi Arabia is contrasts and contradictions which means there is good and bad and I try to present a full picture that may not always be consistent…but that is also how life is in Saudi arabia!
Interesting comments! Some thoughts
As I originally stated, I second American Bedu’s nomination of her MIL, and think Saudi women in all their diversity should be celebrated.
Perhaps a separate post on “feminist Saudi men” would be in order to celebrate those who support female advances.
My understanding is that International Woman’s Day is to celebrate women, their advances, and accomplishments.
“Annually on 8 March, thousands of events are held throughout the world to inspire women and celebrate achievements. A global web of rich and diverse local activity connects women from all around the world ranging from political rallies, business conferences, government activities and networking events through to local women’s craft markets, theatric performances, fashion parades and more.”
from http://www.internationalwomensday.com/about.asp
I am glad to hear that there is integrated collaboration in health care in SAudi although it is possible to fully segregate health services as in Iran (separate Ministries of Health, separate Med schools, separate hospitals, same gender only health care provider, except in an emergency and then the patient must be examined with their clothes on –relatively useless).
University scholarships play a big role in advancing women’s educational and career opportunities, and from what I understand the Saudi graduate stipends, like those of many countries, include a garanteed professorship on return to Saudi. This immensely facilitates graduate studies, whereas other students are often crippled financially and have serious concerns about employment when they do finish. While many graduate students elect to stay abroad, this seems to be less frequent amongst Saudis, so the government is getting an excellent return on their investment, and these women can help reform the system from within, even if only serving as role models of educated career Saudi women (like the ones in the linked article).
I agree it is more important on Women’s Day to focus on the advances in the lives of Saudi women than on the remaining challenges.
Khalid–thanks for your hint and sharing your perspective. Back to re-read the article
I love your post Carol. Very wise and warm.
Nice post, indeed!
@Chiara
Though I wish I could be totally optimistic on this day, there are still drawbacks in the issue of Saudi-woman-studying-abroad-and-coming-back issue. You may want to read the whole discussion about this here:
http://twurl.nl/hi28da
Hishmaj
Thank you for your comment and the link. It does indeed seem that it is harder for Saudi women to go back. Most of the foreign students I talk to from countries other than Saudi have no intention of returning, or only long enough to discharge their obligations. It is a major problem in specialty training in medicine resulting in a massive brain drain. On the other hand the ones who do return home often have ground breaking academic careers.
A real dilemma remains for Saudi to make it worth these women’s while to return–hard to compete with the West, the non-Saudi husband, and the job opportunities. Thank you for providing the nuance.
Carol,
I dont just speak through my wife’s family’s experience, never mind the numerous Saudi friends we have, I speak with my own experiences with the Saudi government. You know our situation and are well aware of the fact that we have gotten ZERO help from anyone in any direction.
Of course not, we dont have the money to pay the bribes needed, nor do we have the connections needed. The idea of helping someone because it is the right thing to do seems to not to be very popular.
If I am jaded concerning the country of Saudi Arabia and Saudis in general, it is because the is the sum of what I have been through, never mind what my wife’s family has dealt with and the other Saudis we know here, has been negative.
Besides, as a staunch Republican (in a European sense) I am normally very much against the lack of freedoms that accompany any monarchy, especially a very harsh one as in Saudi Arabia.
Truth be told, and it is sad for a Muslim convert to say this, I am less than impressed with the Muslim populations as a whole, nevermind Saudi Arabia.
Like the great Western writer once said “Islam is the greatist religion, it just has the worst followers”.
But this is all beside the point, if what I say is untrue, no matter how I know about it, point it out. The issue is that most of what I say is exactly true, but it just doesnt put Saudi in the light that some here would like it put.
The fact that you, yourself, even said at one point that you didnt know if you could get yourself to return to Saudi at all lets me know that at least some of the time you agree.
Chiara,
I think you’d be surprised how many Saudis stay abroad after studying. I know of half a dozen myself. If you rely on the Saudis for the numbers, well, let’s just say you arent gonna see reality.
Carol,
PS, I would like to point out EVERYONE is biased, including yourself. I suggest you view on Saudi would be very different if you husband was from a small family with no connections and no wealth.
So indeed, your perspective is also biased based on this fact. Lets no fool ourselves that everyone isnt biased by their experiences. I guess some bias is more accepted than others.
This story carried by the Saudi Gazette:
http://tinyurl.com/chus3o
“Carrying forward women’s advance
By Hillary Clinton
ON a trip to China 11 years ago, I met with women activists who told me about their efforts to advance conditions for women in their country. They offered a vivid portrait of the challenges women faced: employment discrimination, inadequate health care, domestic violence, antiquated laws that hindered women’s progress.
I met some of those women again a few weeks ago, during my first trip to Asia as Secretary of State. This time, I heard about the progress that has been made in the past decade. But even with some important steps forward, these Chinese women left no doubt that obstacles and inequities still remain, much as they do in many parts of the world.
I’ve heard stories like theirs on every continent, as women seek opportunities to participate fully in the political, economic and cultural lives of their countries. And on March 8, as we celebrate International Women’s Day, we have a chance to take stock of both the progress we’ve made and the challenges that remain — and to think about the vital role that women must play in helping to solve the complex global challenges of the 21st century.
The problems we face today are too big and too complex to be solved without the full participation of women. Strengthening women’s rights is not only a continuing moral obligation — it is also a necessity as we face a global economic crisis, the spread of terrorism and nuclear weapons, regional conflicts that threaten families and communities, and climate change and the dangers it presents to the world’s health and security. [...]“
IWD website:
http://www.internationalwomensday.com/default.asp
Again the Beijing Conference:
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/beijing/
Abu Sinan–thanks for your comment. I guess most of the Saudis I have met have returned after specialty training in medicine, although I am aware some remain. It just seems to be that fewer are so eager to stay compared to those I know from other cultures. My stats may also be skewed by the fact that the ones I see in therapy can tell me more up front they aren’t going home because of the bounds of confidentiality. Thanks again for your input.
Khalid,
Reading Carol’s posts and others, it is not hard to see that women in Saudi Arabia have far fewer freedoms than women in other countries. That is a fact which is not debatable. What I do not know is to what extent the situation is improving. I deeply hope that women in Saudi Arabia have more freedoms in the future. You are extremely fortunate to have women around you that feel fulfilled and happy – that is a blessing in anyone’s life.
I am working hard for women’s equality and opportunity here in America, though many would say we are already one of the most advanced countries. So, you see, you and I have far different standards of equality.
So which woman should be on the higher pedestal?>>
I would say neither as it takes all types of women to make the world go ’round. Saudi being no different.
I think my views would be going into the ‘naysayer’ department you spoke of. Although I tend to think of it as realism. And I’ll of course disagree with other things you said above, but not need for me to rehash it all here.
Abu Sinan- the health sector is very much unsegregated for the most part. Even in teaching hospitals, universities related to medicine it isn’t segregated. Also Aramco is not segregated even when it comes to Saudi women engineers.
Khalid- I can sit down with several dozen female family members and ask them if they are oppressed as Saudi women. Some will say no others will say yes. I don’t necessarily think that either voice is the true measure of if women are oppressed or not. One would have to look at the law and if it allows for oppression of women and if there are those who do indeed oppress women legally in Saudi. The answer to that is undeniably YES.
This of course doesn’t devalue saudi women, they are still wonderful women. It doesn’t make them any less compassionate, loving, intelligent, or motivated.
Thanks Nzingha for pointing out other sectors and examples where there is mixing in the workforce. And of course Kingdom Holdings is another example where segregation in the work place does not take place.
I have enjoyed all the comments even those where I may not agree. It is always good to hear all views and the reasonings behind them.
Carol,
My experience with working in the kingdom for the last couple of years in the financial services domain has reeked of segregation of sexes to the utmost. I have personally experienced ‘heavy discouragement’ of face to face meetings with women colleagues not only from my unit but from people totally unrelated.
As far as bias based on nationality goes, the color of one’s passport determining compensation in this country is for sure a huge one.
For Chiara – “…from what I understand the Saudi graduate stipends, like those of many countries, include a garanteed professorship on return to Saudi.”
I guess you are just speaking about women on Saudi sponsored scholarships being guaranteed professorships when they return?
I just wanted to tell you that my husband went to the US to study on a full Saudi scholarship – he got his Masters and then his PhD. He went back to Saudi for a whole year to try to get a job teaching at the university level, and they would not hire him. Consequently he returned to the US, married me, and stayed there in the US for a total of 30 years.
Susie of Arabia–thanks, for the clarification. I do know some on Saudi scholarships who have garanteed positions on return, like some from other countries who have the same arrangement, ie they are (very)junior faculty before the scholarship and are expected to return to the same post, though better qualified. Some doing specialty medical training have similar arrangements. In both cases there are some who prefer to remain in the West and take their chances.
In the past Moroccans with scholarship owed civil service time in their own fields, this resulted in garanteed professorships, obligatory hospital service, or sometimes just a garantee of a job (but at lower wages until the 2 year civil service component lapsed)–until an economic downturn hit and highly qualified people like my husband (MA, Mphil/MBA) who returned to fulfil his obligation found themselves with no job until they could find one on the open market (he did find an excellent one but not right away).
Thanks for clarifying–I should haved specified some although I hope I was clear I was unsure.
Upside–you married, and now he gets to work in
Saudi afterall!
[...] Saudi Arabia, American Bedu admits that while many women in the kingdom may not even be aware of the significance of the day, [...]
Downside, he gets to work in Saudi after all, lugs his wife and child with him and quickly reverts to the abismal Saudi Neanderthal level…
Dear Abu Sinan,
Please calm down, relax, take it easy, chill out — 7 comments in half an hour!! Take a deep breath please… Don’t you recall,Abu Sinan, Carol’s wonderful advice? We should write our comment, go away for sometime, then reread it, and leave all the outrage aside. It seems you don’t apply Carol’s wonderful advice. I don’t know why you don’t respect other people’s opinions, and you only respect those who share the same opinions as yours! I don’t know why you lose your temper when someone doesn’t comply with your own views — we must comply or else! Why did You start attacking others and pointing fingers at everyone who doesn’t share your own ideas? Why?
AmericanBedu’s Blog is a respected one, and there is no place for uncivilized talk here. I can use the same methods you used here but I’m not interested by any means in your style of arguing with others, so I’m not going to follow in your footsteps. My main interest here is intellectual exchange, and not personal attacks. Let’s grow up and put all personal issues aside and talk intellectually. Everyone is entitled to his/her own views, and we as mature grown-ups should respect the others’ opinions in the same way we respect each others. Believe me AbuSinan, nothing in this world will change when we fight and hate others; we can change things only when we have the capacity to understand and appreciate the other.
I personally regularly visit Carol’s Blog because of the wealth of information I find in it, and also because of the highly intellectual people who regularly comment on it. You AbuSinan usually make valuable contributions here, and I learnt a lot from you –I have just one request though, please avoid the personal attacks and apply Carol’s advice.
Don’t be sad please
I’d like you to be always happy , I’m going to comment on the info you stated about your wife’s monthly allowance. First of all the 1000$ is not half of what males make.. You cannot find any Saudi female who is on a scholarship and gets 1$ less than what a Saudi male gets — this is a challenge for anyone who likes to point fingers 
. I contacted the Ministry of High Education in Riyadh, and I phoned the Saudi Cultural Bureau in Canada this morning, so I know very well what I’m talking about.
AbuSinan I said 2000 CAD and not US$
I was talking about Canada and not the US so ur calculation & the 1000$ less thing you mentioned is wrong 
. 3 years ago Saudi students in the US used to get 1200$ a month (a friend of mine was one of those who used to get 1200$ a month). Due to the exchange rate of the Ca$ and the Aus$, the students in Australia and Canada get seemingly higher dollar allowances than those in the US.
Since we talked about a PhD Saudi female studying in Canada, it was important to get in touch with her, and ask her for her monthly allowance, and whether she is with a “mahram”. She said that she receives 2696.18 CAD monthly (exactly, not a cent less, and not a cent more), and she is living alone, no one from her family lives with her since she started her MA (however, during summer vacations she either goes to KSA or her family visits her in Canada). So she doesn’t live with a mahram and receives exactly the same amount (not a penny more or less) as any Saudi male Student in Canada. As a side note, just 2 months ago, the monthly allowance was raised 50% for all Saudi students, so this is the new allowance in Canada this year. I guess in the US their monthly allowance went up to 1800$ or so starting from the beginning of this year.
Of course, I am aware of women’s university positions; the female profs in sociology I mentioned teach only female undergraduate students; however, they supervise both male and female students in grad studies. Also, AbuSinan, maybe you don’t know this, but all departmental meetings have to be joined by both male and female profs. No change in any of the Depts’ rules, plans and regulations can take place without all profs (male & female) signing on it. (This practice takes place in one of the gov Univs in KSA that I belong to) And just for your info, I’d not be studying abroad now if my scholarship documents were not signed by the female profs of my Dept. Yes, you read it right, I got my scholarship after my own file was signed by more than 30 profs about half of them women.
If you’re interested, I can send you a photocopy of my scholarship paper, so I’ll raise your spirit up and make you happy to enjoy gazing at all the signatures of the female profs.
2 weeks ago I sent a letter requesting to change my univ, I phoned one of the profs asking him when he expects that I’d receive the official approval, so I can go ahead and change the univ. He told me to wait till the next departmental meeting, so they’ll discuss my request, and inshallah all the profs will not mind, and they will sign the approval for you. So here is another incident where I cannot move to another univ without both our female and male profs’ consent.
The US separate but equal, and Jim Crow laws are complex and not easily applied to Saudi 
. (You are well read in history, but not in applying it to reality 
) [The premise of "separate but equal" is that the facilities for blacks were separate but in fact were highly inferior. I don't think this is the case in Saudi--but since I was never there (yet) I don't know.eg. separate washrooms but filthy ones for blacks (women), separate schools but severely underfunded ones for blacks (women).]
Hope That Helps, and Just for your knoledge Abusinan, I cannot be bought, but I recognize my obligations to return to Saudi to repay my training by resuming my professorship.
Tanya–I agree there is room for improvement in Saudi laws and attitudes about women, but I celebrate women’s accomplishments on International Women’s Day. Yes I am lucky to have wonderful Saudi women around me.
Nzingha –, thanks for your views. Quite true, neither voice can be the true measure whether women are oppressed or not. You’ve been living in KSA and mingling with Saudis who live in the KSA , so you know a good deal of life in Saudi Arabia.
Susie of Arabia, Chiara — if someone receives a scholarship from any of the Saudi Univs, hospitals or companies, s/he will sign a contract that after the completion of his/her studies, the person has to return and work for the univ/company/hospital the same number of years s/he studied abroad (at least), so as an example if someone got a 5 year scholarship from SABIK/KSU/ARAMCO etc, s/he should work 5 years at least, or otherwise s/he will pay all the expenses the company/gov paid. But for those who are on “Khadem Al-haramin” (King Abdullah) scholarships, they can get their degree abroad, and there is no job guarantee; the person him/herself should find a job when returning to the KSA..
Sorry for the long-winded comment
I was enjoying my Sunday with some friends hiking, and I checked the Blog after 24H to find waves of comments, so I had to be lengthy– my apologies to all …
P.S. Aafke wielen Dank, You are super
Khalid, sweety,
why are you saying ”thank you”? I was being wicked again in my last comment?
Khalid,
Your long winded comment was much appreciative and gave so much information and explanations. I am hoping that all those profs (male and female) will unanimously approve your request.
Khalid–I agree with American Bedu’s comment!
Thank you in particular for clearing up the scholarship/work confusions. 
Aafke–you? wicked? I’m shocked!
[...] Arabia Saudita, American Bedu [in] ammette chepur se parecchie donne nel regno non sono neppure in grado di capire il significato [...]
“hasha lillah” Aafke is wicked!! no of course you are not. (Since you are a good student
try to find out the meaning of the first two words I mentioned; they are a common phrase that we use 
I’m wicked now 
) What do you think 
Actually there was a reason of my many thanks to you
You did me a favor and I should thank you for it. There is a person might get offended here if I say it 
so I prefer to keep it between us 
I’ll let you know 
Thanks AmericanBedu, Thanks Chiara
Now I’m not thanking Aafke only 
[...] Saudi Arabia, American Bedu admits that while many women in the kingdom may not even be aware of the significance of the day, [...]
[...] respect for prawns and how they make their way to the table! And of course while my mother-in-law Mama Moudy is always number one in cooking and so much more, I also wish to say how much I appreciate my [...]
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