I had the opportunity to engage in a discussion with a young man from Al Qassim. He is in his mid-twenties and not yet married but educated and has traveled routinely outside of Saudi Arabia to include western countries. Our conversation began when discussing the plight of a young Saudi woman, 28 years old who was married as a second wife to a 45 year old Saudi. The young woman had one child but recently had to undergo a hysterectomy. The Al Qassim Saudi on hearing this casually remarked “he’s probably already planning the next marriage as that wife will no longer be of any use to him now if she can’t bear him any more children.” This led to a more detailed discussion on views of marriage and partnership. The Al Qassim Saudi said that while he did not want to break any of my western illusions but the hard facts were marriages in Saudi Arabia were not based or made on love and partnership. In his view, marriages took place primarily for the following reasons:
• The mother felt it was time for her child to marry and arranges a marriage.
• The young man wants to have children.
• The young man wants to have legal sex.
• The young man is either going to study abroad or work abroad and should be married before leaving the Kingdom.
• It made sense to form an alliance through marriage between families to protect money and assets.
• A marriage would be arranged for acquisition of more money and assets.
He said if positive emotional feelings developed with the union that was great but not expected. Even after marriage the young man and young woman will each remain close and engaged with their own families. Unless marriage is to a first cousin there is little mixing of families.
After these views our conversation segued to segregation in Saudi Arabia. My comment was that due to the segregation practiced in Saudi Arabia many young men and women were ill prepared if they found themselves in an environment which was mix. They did not know how to compose themselves or speak with the opposite sex. The Al Qassim man agreed with my statements but said at the same time it would never persuade him to condone mixing of the sexes. When asked why his response was that he knows how not only the Saudi but the Arab man thinks and that women are viewed as chattel. He added he would never wish for an Arab man to be able to gaze upon or converse with his own sisters knowing that while doing so he was probably undressing her with his eyes. My come back to that was perhaps if there were not such segregation there would not be the awkwardness that exists. However his response was that viewing women as toys and baby makers were embedded in the mindset of the Arab man, even in Arab countries were many women may not cover or be segregated.
The purpose of this post is not to point any fingers or to insinuate in any way that all Saudi men share these views. It is to provide further understanding and sensitivity on the issue of marriages and segregation as practiced in Saudi Arabia.
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if the wife of saudi man too thinks like him … whether its tolerable?
still long way to accept both spouses are equal – am i right sister?
Wow, this guy makes me feel Arab men are, ummm, what’s the word I’m looking for? Hmmm.
I got back from Syria 3 weeks ago. The young men I met were so respectful, friendly, generous … very NORMAL in dealing with me! And surprise of all surprises, they were mostly conservative Muslim Arabs!
I just think Saudi Arabia has a rare breed (hopefully) of detestable young men with that mindset shared by your acquaintance. Sorry, but I find it offensive. I know you are trying to be sensitive to the culture and all, but, c’mon! Viewing women as chattel isn’t something that just makes me ooze with feelings of warm fuzzies towards Saudi men. I swear if I felt Syrian guys were this way, I never would have wasted my money going there!
I know not all Arabs are as that guy described. At least I hope not! Hopefully, it’s contained to the Gulf countries.
Eons ago I had an arab friend (non Saudi) who asked me to promise him that I would never date an arab man for the very reason described here. I didn’t need to be asked twice!
The title and comments by the women in your opening photo are as remarkable as the views of the Al Qassim man. Overall they support each other regarding the limitations placed on women in the society and the attitudes of at least the more conservative element. He is probably right that the wife with the hysterectomy is about to become a plural wife, or even a divorcee.
It seems the Al Qassim Saudi has given a thorough description of arranged marriages in traditional societies as well as Saudi, and of male-female dynamics in strictly segregated ones. His forthrightness is to be appreciated, even if most here will tend to disagree with him about how it should be or perhaps is.
My own experience of a social circle including Arab men is that they are certainly capable of, and very good at, genuine friendships with women including their wives, and of being caring and attentive colleagues.
I certainly agree that segregation and even family arrangement of marriages foster an inability to relate comfortably to the other sex. Since the marriages are arranged, the motivation to seek the social skills required to attract and engage with a partner is not necessarily present. If the emphasis is always on legalized sex and babies, then other forms of relationship are stunted.
As Srinivas remarked, it is a long way from equal partners in marriage, but then some do not seek that. Traditional marriages are structurally based on reciprocity not equality, each partner with their own sphere of influence (husband the external world, wife the domestic world) and the husband dominating all.
I always find it interesting that people can be educated and well-travelled yet not modify their views (at least it seems that this young man not only describes the world as he sees it, but approves of it which may not be the case).
I also suspect that this young man may modify his views with age and further life experience, including hopefully with a fertile wife whom he genuinely loves!
Marriage = kids only!!! I didn’t know that nowadays marriage has become a materialistic thing
Where is the psychological/spiritual side of it?? hmmmmm!
Please allow me to assume that the guy don’t know how to express himself in English
so he didn’t understand what he was saying — other wise I’d request to meet with him and …. (I’ll keep what I’ll do for myself 
) . BTW, I’m originally from Qasim (I don’t live there though), and I completely disagree with him… Thanks God I didn’t meet with such people before. I do admit there are people with such ideas, but hamdillah they are in the minorities in my opinion. Who said that arranged marriage is always equated with “no love” — this is a myth I’d say. I know dozens of people who got married in such arrangement, and they are crazy in love with their other half. Some of them got married more than 30 years ago , and some of them got married less than 3 years ago. Yeah, something popped up just now 
Last week I was invited for dinner at the house of a Saudi guy. He has 4 kids (I assume he got married more than 10 years ago) He was telling me and another Saudi guy that best thing to do is to let your family search for you, they know girls better than you — He said his parents chose for him ,and he believes he wouldn’t never find a better wife. Just thought to share since I recalled this dinner 
(As aside note, we had homemade Konafa , that was so yummy yummy — since ages I’ve not had Konafa 
Just to spread some sweets around 
Peace & Good Night
P.S. maybe I have to reread the post — perhaps I didn’t understand it well …
Having never lived in Saudi…only experienced a second hand version of it by living in the slighly more tolerant society of Bahrain…I wonder seriously…why women dont shoot for the border at the first opportunity…if there are any. Seriously….where is the benefit in being born and raised in a society that views you as merely a product to use as seen fit by men.
The views of your friend are somewhat true but mostly exaggerated. Like Khalid said, I don’t doubt that some think that way but it is the minority.
I believe the most driving reason for marriage is social responsibility. A 30 year old man who has never married is kind of an oddity as he would be expected to be a family man contributing to society.
The quotes by the women at the top of your post are very powerful statements. It is true that even Saudis who have spent time in the West still retain their Saudi perspecitves. My husband continues to shock me with how he has slipped back into that mentality, after returning here to KSA after 30 years in the states. The other day I told him that I was going to lunch with a new friend, and that I didn’t need a ride from him because she was sending her driver for me. He told me “No,” that I needed to ASK his permission!!! We had a lengthy discussion where I made it clear to him that I would NEVER ask him for permission in a situation like this. What happened to the man I married?
”Social responsibillity” is also a really stupid and heartless reason to get married. Does ‘’social” mean to breed children? Because I think it’s high time humanity should stop this mindless reproduction. There are far too many humans on the plant as it is.
There are more humans on the planet as the Earth can feed. It’s high time people stop acting like mindless selfish sheep and start looking at the global picture.
Anybody who has any real ‘’social” sense, can see that we carry the responsibillity to what happens not only now, but also in the future, for our children and our childrens children.
Studying with a few Saudi young men in the states was very interesting. They treated me with respect, asked my opinion, and even borrowed my notes and many times, we studied together. But, after marrying my husband, these same, ‘educated’ ‘westernized’ Saudis asked me why I was sitting with them when they visited my husband here in Jeddah at our home. Wow, I was shocked. I couldn’t believe that these were the same guys I had taken classes with.
And, the answer is…they are not the same when they come back to Saudi! They turn back into the ‘cave’ man attitude of many here. As a matter of fact, quite a few of these ‘westernized’ Saudis have taken second wives, even though they had a ‘love’ match that they chose themselves in the states. Most took advantage of the fact that they knew their wife wouldn’t leave them due to financial situations or because of still having young children at home. American women need to beware of the ‘westernized’ Saudi. He might not be all that western as he seems outside…..see American Bedu’s site on the Transformation of the Saudi Male.
Susie of Arabia…..Didn’t we tell you that this was going to happen? No one believes us (group of ladies married to Saudis), but we have lived here in KSA as long as you lived there in the States. The longer your husband is here, the more the family will ‘teach’ him how to treat his woman here….and they can be very convincing — especially if he has sisters or is from a strict tribe of people that live in town. You will probably have many battles to fight along the way…. good luck!
Social influence works both ways. What about Westerners who live in KSA and then repatriate? Don’t we automatically fall into not only some of the attitudes with which we were raised, but also a few new ones? Would our ME friends know us?
Susie, there is some mysterious mineral in the water in KSA, which dissolves male frontal brainlobes, while at the same time inducing acute paranoia involving any contact with women.
Just read the interview in this post!
There have been no serious scientific studies done in this field (the test-subjects are too paranoid) but it seems that only a very small percentage of the male Homo Sapiens are immune.
I understand that a male guardian can prevent you from doing a whole manner of things. I can understand how he could easily enforce a rule such as the woman not working (because of the need for signed documents from him) but how about not leaving the house. How is that enforced? I’m presuming you can’t be arrested for breaking one of the guardian’s rules. I’m guessing that it must be through her own belief that to disobey him would be to invite God’s wrath.
Truly surprised by what i read. I cant believe such things are still happening in this day and age. I think it is a little extreme but as many commented, he might be a minority of saudi men, or so we hope.
Society conforms people, we are mere human. Still doesnt justify their change. I also think Saudi men might treat the Saudi ladies differently from tourist ladies. Thus it will be difficult to know how they really are when you are a tourist only.
Susie: ‘I would NEVER ask him for permission in a situation like this’
There are situations where you WOULD ask permission? There is NO situation where I would ask my husband for permission. I will inform him of my intentions the same that he does with me. I might ask if he minded or if he had other plans etc. the same that he does with me, but I would never ask ‘permission’. Perhaps that is what you meant by that?
Marahm:
‘Don’t we automatically fall into not only some of the attitudes with which we were raised, but also a few new ones?’
Can you give examples please?
Great comments!
Khalid and Mohamed S–thank you for providing the more moderate view.
Aafke–”social responsibility” in Arab culture means just that: get married and have children to continue the fabric of the family and society (although of course people exercise social responsibility in other spheres too).
Coolred–as you probably know, women buy into and teach these norms to their daughters. Familial and social retribution are powerful motivators.
Susie of Arabia–It is good you stand your ground on these issues. Based on my readings in cross-cultural marriage, and on friends’ experiences living in the home country of the husband, getting a job–even a volunteer one, or a compelling hobby outside the home–and taking breaks to the Western country for marital renewal and discussion of issues really help.
Miriam Mac–thanks for sharing your experience, and the reminder about American Bedu’s post. Also, your comment to Susie rings very true in my experience of other Arab cultures. Just imagine if the Al Qassim man in the post were one’s brother-in-law what he would say to one’s husband, and get the family to say to him.
Marahm–in the 3 1/2 months between when I left my then boyfriend (now husband) at the airport and when he came to visit me in Canada, I had “turned into an American” according to him. After we got past the Canadian nationalism issue
, we had a good discussion of what I had had to do to function in Canadian society again (and retain my sanity!) 
Anon–Thank you for your perspective. It is enforced by constant reminding, checking up, upbraiding by the husband and the family, neighbours, shop keepers, etc. until either the person internalizes it or just finds it too difficult to bother. Some of the persuasive arguments are absolutely true and logical–eg. the neighbours will be talking if you do, his colleagues at work will speak to him about it, his boss will see him as incompetent, his family will make his life difficult, you will be harassed by taxi drivers, teenagers, etc.
Lynn–sometimes saying “I’ll be going to my friend’s house tomorrow” or “Have we got anything on, I want to visit my friend tomorrow” is construed as asking permission and gets a permission-giving or refusing response (which then makes one wish they hadn’t said anything
)
I once again state there are decent saudi men, those with intact frontal lobes
but they
are far and few . Here’s an Q and A session i had with a Saudi male ( mine) – again opinions are ours.
Me = read this post on bedu’s blog.
SM = what now ! another women’s issue in KSA
Me = don’t u think women showld have rights!!!
SM = I do why else would i have left that place
me = couldn’t you stay there and treat me as an equal.
Sm = would you want to live in perpetual misery.
Me = iwoudn’t have to if u treated me as an equal.
Sm = I cannot be responsible for every dirty mind and dumb rule that exists in KSA and you’re feminist side takes over there.Living outside KSA is better for my heart health.
me = ok i’m going to read this , tell me if all saudi men think like that.
sm = god!!!why me!!!!
Sm = marriages in saudi are for having kids,
people get married because that’s what on does.
They start out as all arranged marriages, great expectations and excitement,
however once the routine sets in there are not many avenues where you can be open,
by restricting women , men are restricting their freedom of interaction,
not listening to the views of half your population reduces the potential of a country.
me = but do you agree that all men think like that guy..
Sm = No but some so and a lot of them agree even if they don’t ,
some of them beleive women are only for childbearing. – It’s not easy to give up your superiority and become equal– who doesn’t like lording it over the others.
What what you see as a child around you is embedded in your consciousness.
it’s what is happening around – people follow the herd mentality.
why do most african american kids wear jeans that hang off their knees, does it look good — no but they still doit,
Why do indian teen men think it’s cool to whistle at a girl , is that good – no , do they know it’s wrong — yes but they still do it.
it’s the same thing, every culture has it’s problems, Saudi ‘s is suppression of women and treating them as chattel. it’s encouraged by everyone,
if you belong to a more liberal family you imbibe their views , the only way is to stand up against them.
me = you did
sm= yes i did, but i have $$$ and position and a life outside, lot of them don’t . i tried resoning with my folks
but when they refused to see enlightenment i left but i had your family as a fallback . it’s hard to survive without family support in saudi. and also hard to live without society’s approval, hence easier to move out
no one wants to be alone.
do pass on my comments to the women in the blog
———————————————–
you women are your own worst enemy, my mom was not treated right, so instead of making sure her daughters/in-laws don’t go thru the same hell.
she decided to show her power when time came. lack of education/control/income makes you weild your power in whatever sphere you have it.Maybe if the current gen treated their daughters right, there could be some hope.
me = ok too much info … bye
— want to go for a wlk
sm= see i talk and you run
me = nope want to surf the web..
sm = you’ll never live there why do you comment …maybe i should set you loose in ksa .
me = huh .. i’m with my sisters in arms
What does education have to do with any of this?
“How easy it is to become a scholar and how difficult to be a human being”
@Aafke: Actually, the world can sustain the human population. The problem is in many countries where fertile agricultural ground exists (most notably Sub Saharan Africa and some parts of South East asia) most lack the stability and infrastructure to support large scale Mechanized agriculture.
That and more and more crops are going into biofuels and prosperous countries eat way more than they should.
—————————
Susie, there is some mysterious mineral in the water in KSA, which dissolves male frontal brainlobes, while at the same time inducing acute paranoia involving any contact with women.
—————————–
Most likely the men acted that way in western countries because they wanted to conform and not offend anyone. I don’t think at any time did they become “western”.
also @Tee:
That and there are more educated women than men in Saudi Arabia so that point is kind of moot.
I don’t even know where to begin…and I was having such a good day, esconced in NYC. This guy is an a******, I’m sure you would all agree. The question is whether he is representative of an entire society. I’m certain that he is representative of a type of saudi male, and in fact, we always avoid alqassimi. Having said that, there are many men in saudi who would share my view of this pig.
I do hope you all realize that there are men all over the world like him.
I am hesitant to marry a saudi because I think it is possible that returning to his family would bring out the worse characteristics in him. And, of course, I would have no where to run.
You know, I always advise my American girlfriends NOT to become seriously involved with arab men, and they are actually ATTRACTED to this sort of Neanderthal behavior. Having lived with it, I just don’t understand. Please listen carefully…
A poll done around 9/11 revealed a very important thing:
ME parents and USA parents were polled as to what characteristics and values were most important in their children. WAIT FOR IT….
Honesty was #1 with the American parents.
Honesty was not mentioned with Arab parents.
You can be “politically correct” all you want, and yes, of course, there are exceptions to every statement, BUT-
the arab man you fall in love with has NO twinge of conscience that he is presenting himself as something other than he is. This is almost impossible for Westerners to understand.
Let me give you additional information… recently there was a famous “whistleblower” in US business. This person was applauded by Americans. However, far eastern and middle eastern people found such behavior appalling and questioned how a person could be so DISLOYAL.
We are not all the same…we have different values. I doubt anyone brought up one way could relax enough to fully accept another way.
My quest for honesty in my own life has backfired and caused me much stress as I am constantly labelled as disloyal and worse. So, again, please don’t look at other societies with western eyes.
I will try to find the above mentioned study – it’s fascinating.
Radha–hilarious and enlightening, thank you. The points about having the money and other family support to leave, and that the traditional woman only comes into power in dominating daughters/inlaw are particularly well taken.
Tee and Mohamed S–education, ie ex ducare–to lead out (of the darkness), is a start toward wisdom and learning moderation, unfortunately not all education does this and not all education “takes”.
Mariam–”Under Western Eyes” is a famous Joseph Conrad novel, that among other attributes makes the point that looking with Western eyes leads to misunderstanding. Looking forwasr to the study reference.
Mariam, yes please!
Radha, waw! Your hubby has excellent resistance ànd a backbone of steel!
It’s great to read his thoughts on the matter.
Mohammed S. Industrial agriculture has many drawbacks, monoculture is a thing of the past and we should try to live and produce in a more sustainable manner.
Anyway, about marrying for breeding purposes, I think what the world really doesn’t need is more of useless, dishonest, incompetent, badly educated, female-unfriendly, mysoginist Arabs. Who clearly only think of themselves, their own family and ”tribe”, and have no idea about how the world functions globally and have no compassion or care for anybody outside their limited circle.
The quote applies to both genders, to all people. I’m just saying let’s not drag formal education in and act surprised when some people with doctorates and PhDs have no inkling of what awareness is.
Lynn, thank you for the question. It got me thinking about the topic for my next post (on my own blog). It’s an important phenomenon, one that bi-cultural people understand, but one that could really interfere in relationships if one or the other party expects that behavior will remain the same no matter where they happen to find themselves.
Chiara, you’re right, education is a start toward wisdom, or maybe it’s not but should be.. now I’m reminded:
‘A man who has never gone to school may steal from a freight car; but give him education and he may steal the whole railroad.’
Tee–agreed, however ignorance is not usually bliss either!
Marahm–yes culture is situational.
I often think about this during the great Canadian circumcision debates (ie the advocacy/harassment of physicians and bioethicists by a group of men determined to eliminate male circumcision). If I were to have a son he would be circumcision because of my medical beliefs, and his father’s (hence his) Muslim religion. However, when and where? In Morocco this is done as part of a ceremony and celebration at age 2-3 years, in Canada and best, medically speaking, it is done right after birth. Since we live in Canada, I would try harder for right after birth (medically and psychologically safer, and Islamically permissible), and not traumatize the child by doing it on holiday in Morocco at a later age (and risking negative reaction to Morocco). Or worse, delaying and then trying to get it done in Canada at that age which is probably hard to explain, without risking a visit from the Children’s Aid. If we lived in Morocco full time, I would have less problem with the age 2-3 as it would be part of the child’s norm too (and still medically not too bad).
That is a very concrete example, but one’s opinion on things cultural does shift geographically.
No, ignorance is the root of all evil.
Education with awareness is the answer.
Chiara:
‘Or worse, delaying and then trying to get it done in Canada at that age which is probably hard to explain, without risking a visit from the Children’s Aid’
Really? Is circumcision a requirement in Canada? Or is it something to do with the socialized medicine?
‘sometimes saying “I’ll be going to my friend’s house tomorrow…” is construed as asking permission and gets a permission-giving or refusing response (which then makes one wish they hadn’t said anything ‘
Are you talking about within the Arab culture? Because I consider it more of a courtesy to the people that I am living with, children included.
Radha – Your husband sounds like a great guy. I feel for him though he sounds as if he feels like an alien in his own home in KSA. That must be very difficult to live with and maybe it is hard for him to think about it so much when he feels he should be free of it.
Marahm – I can’t wait to read what you have to say on the topic
Tee–agreed.
Lynn–no circumcision is not a requirement in Canada, and it is no longer paid for by the government health system unless there is a clear immediate medical need. It is still customary (though decreasing) for newborn boys to be circumcised prior to leaving the hospital (much as in the US).
However, my point was that since it would be religiously recommend (since I am married to a Muslim the boy would be Muslim), and culturally required (wouldn’t even go there with hubby and inlaws), and that as a physician I have read the research and believe it is medically justifiable any son of mine would be circumcized. However, I think if one waited to the age of 2 or 3 years here in Canada, as they do in Morocco, one would have to explain why one wanted this non-medically urgent procedure done at this late (by Canadian standards) age. Anti-circumcision people including some doctors would argue it is a form of unnecessary surgery without the child’s consent (awkward since I am an informed consent specialist), or worse a form of child abuse (hence Children’s Aid, although I am exaggerating–hopefully).
The broader point is that my idea of when the circumcision for cultural reasons would happen, fluctuates based on where the family is located permanently geographically.
My comment about what is construed as permission was in reference to Arab culture, but of course applies in any patriarchal culture, or patriarchal family. I agree it is a courtesy more than a permission.
Thanks you both of you for your comments.
I think 2 thinks need to change, laws of the land and the mindset of men. even if the men treat women as equals does the law? yes it will help to feel an equal atleast @ home but what about daily life, you’re still constrained.
@mohammed – i agree most saudi men in US don’t change just learn to shutup and conform, they also learn that their women if tormented here ,could walk out with the kids , @ best they could get joint custody . so you’re right, again there are a few who really open their eyes and see the world and change.
@aafke – Completely agree we don’t need more people populating this earth. definetly not the ksa kind . As for my husband –he’s in the medical field– after seeing the magnitude of human suffering, petty things like supressing women don’t hold much water .
@lynn – Yep he is feels different, rarely stays more than a week /once a yr. stayed outside ksa on and off from the age of 11 and almost always away from 17, so doesn’t feel many bonds to the place as such, ofcourse misses his family. but time has flown and wounds heal. people who matter to him have moved here – so it’s ok
Who clearly only think of themselves, their own family and ”tribe”, and have no idea about how the world functions globally and have no compassion or care for anybody outside their limited circle.
——————————–
I think somebody who thinks of his own family would be a decent guy actually. 0_o
Mohamed S., would you feel that way about the guy that steals from your family in order to take care of his family? It always comes down to balance and moderation. All or too much of anything, including good things can be harmful wouldn’t you agree?
So, Canada leans towards disapproval of circumcision but tolerates it in newborns then? Those darn liberal hippies! lol
lol love the circumcision discussion!!! poor little boys.
ok I’m willing to marry Radha’s husband, –
Radha, feel like a sister wife?? Truly he sounds great, good job picking him, girl! Ask if he has brothers.
Lynn–LOL yes the Canadian Pediatric Association, like the American one are officially neutral leaning away from it. In Canada if it were proven to be medically sound as a routine procedure the government would have to pay for it, so they have a vested interest now that they stopped paying for it to keep it that way.
The most recent studies on AIDs prevention show strong evidence of the protective (not fool proof) effect of circumcision.
Medically and psychologically it is best done early (and is less expensive to do).
I think it should be up to the parents and should be paid for.
I would say “Off with their foreskins” but that would be unprofessional and the anti-circ people might come after me
Has it occurred to anyone that removing the foreskin of millions of baby boys might be the cause and effect of so much patriarchial behavoir…they are pissed that mothers (generally speaking) had the nerve to cut their manhood…thus they feel the need to reestablish their superiority over the very females that dared touch the Holy Penis.
Maybe if we do a study against all the dictators/assholes etc in the world compared to all (few) men that dared to act like equals among us and see who is/was still intact…hmmm. I could be on to something here.
just thinking out loud here
coolred – you are special
and No i didn’t pick him, he picked me. but that’s a story for another day and time.
@mariam – realy you want to put up with a cranky middleaged surgeon
After my especially crappy day today, i woudn’t mind someone keeping house/ driving my kids around and getting me a hot cup of tea when i get back .. hmmm seems like i need a wife.
I’m getting addicted to this blog. i hop on to it after every ot or rounds…:-)
as for brothers – 4 of them 1 is cool, married and v v open and as for the other 2, wouldn’t sic them on my worst enemy also married living in KSA , as far as i know they have 1 wife only,but that could change.
@Lynn: So these misogynists who care for their family and live their life according to an ultra puritan version of Islam and fear and approve of corporal punishment actually moonlight as armed robbers?
There’s no such thing as loving your family too much. Is their such a thing as worrying about you family too much? (ie “NO LITTLE TIMMY DON’T GO OUTSIDE! YOU’LL GET SKIN CANCER! NO TV YOU’LL GO BLIND! NO INTERNET A CHILDMOLESTER CAN FIND YOU!”) Yes. But not loving too much.
Ok, Here’s an example of how I think American women should speak to her Saudi husband.
“Honey, I’m going to the beach with my friends today. I’ll be home around 5 tonight. Want to have dinner together?” And his reply is, “Yeah, that sounds good or….No, I can’t meet you till 6 because I have a long meeting today…”
Because if she says, “Um, honey is it ok with you if I go to the beach with my friends today until 5?”
His reply will more likely be, “No, I’d rather you didn’t go to the beach today.” So, she’s out of luck.
It’s best if you don’t leave the decision up to your spouse if you don’t want him ‘ruling’ over you. If he really objects to something you are about to do, he’ll stop you and tell you so like with Susie of Arabia. She was smart to put her foot down and stand her ground.
It’s really all in the way that you talk to a Saudi man here. The first way above is not being rude…(I don’t think), but being assertive and doing what you want to do, but showing that you really do care about him and that you want to be with him when he’s available later on.
American women need to be assertive or the Arab men (and Arab women) will bulldoze right over them. Holding your ground here is very important because we do not have our own family support nearby.
So many western women come here and try to please their husband’s family, and it usually doesn’t end up well for them. They learn Arabic and try their best to show what a great wife they are to their husband by being really sweet to his family. They just don’t get the fact that they will never be accepted as one of ‘them’ no matter what they do or how long they are married. His family will love her and accept her of course, but she will still be considered an ‘outsider’ here.
If he wanted a ‘Saudi’ wife, he wouldn’t have married a western one. I think many Saudi men marry western women so that they have a good excuse not to attend social obligations here.
From what I’ve seen, Saudi men seem to like the independence of the American woman. It’s a challenge for him to try to get her to ‘bend’ to his wishes and commands, especially in his own country. The smart American will stand her ground and give up only a little bit at any given time….and only temporarily, of course. : )
wow — so many interesting comments, enjoyed reading them all!
Yes; the Saudi man will transform to a degree from the man who was outside of KSA to the man who is inside KSA. And i agree with mariam mac that the western woman who tries too hard to please her husband and especially his extended family within KSA will ultimately be viewed as weak and having no background. It’s sad for the western culture is to please and not offend and be helpful but it backfires in KSA in too many cases.
It is these attitudes that have caused a lot of Arab women in the west to refuse to marry Arab men. It puts them in a hard spot because they must marry a Muslim, at the same time they cannot stand the mindset of the Arab man so they look elsewhere.
It was interesting for me to hear from many Arab women that it isnt just Arabs from the Middle East, rather it is Western born Arab men that often continue this nonsense in the West.
I remember one Yemeni lady who told me at my wedding “we need more men like you”. It was a clear rejection of Arab men and the cultural practices they continue.
I have gotten tonnes of requests on my blog for Arab women looking for Western men. I have also gotten a lot of Arab women looking for advice on dealing with possible marriage to a non Arab.
I would like to see how western men who move the gulf change. My friends husband(muslim convert) changed alot when they moved to the gulf. She called his syndrome “gulf-itis”.
Mohamed S., ‘So these misogynists who care for their family and live their life according to an ultra puritan version of Islam and fear and approve of corporal punishment actually moonlight as armed robbers?’
They could, that or worse! Whatever it takes to make sure that the family that they love has everything they want or sometimes, if they can’t provide for them they may even kill them, out of love though. You really don’t think that it is possible for someone to love their families and yet still not be good and decent to others? Dude, open your eyes and look around you!
I am against circumcision. I think it’s silly to take away a piece of skin which hasn’t been placed there without a purpose. If a man is properly hygenic there is no proof circumcision actually improves hygene.
I think it’s totally outdated and should be stopped, especially as children have no say in it. Let grown up men circumcise themselves if they think it’s so nessecary.
@ Lynn – Yes, I absolutely misworded that statement you took issue with when I said : ‘I would NEVER ask him for permission in a situation like this.’ I should have completely left out “in a situation like this.”
I have never and will never ask my husband for permission to do something. Why he suddenly thinks I should do this just because we are on a different continent is beyond me. I have no problem with letting him know where I’ll be and with whom and even when I’ll be back, but to ask for his permission? Never!
Sorry I didn’t clarify that earlier. BTW, I went to lunch and then to the mall and I had a wonderful time.
Re: circumcision
Coolred–unfortunately it doesn’t prevent dictatorship, perversion, misogyny, or cruelty–Latin Americans for example are “intact” and have a long history of these problems. Same for Asians who are intact (except for South Koreans who have high circumcision rates because of US influence).
Aafke–excellent studies, which I am too migrainous at the moment to link, show that circumcision protects against HIV/AIDs and other sexual transmitted diseases including the HPV that is transmitted by men and causes cervical cancer in women independent of hygiene. There are of course other protective measures that are necessary but still that one remains.
Re: attitude changes
Miriam Mac–agreed. The most determined to test your resolve will try to take a statement of fact as a opportunity to grant or withhold permission. The marriage is most likely to fall apart when the person
they married no longer “exists”. Most who marry a Westerner could have easily married someone from their own culture.
Umm Nermine–I would agree that other men also adapt/change to the ambient family dynamic. In Hong Kong many Europeans become or allow themselves to express more conservative, traditional “family values” because of the ambient Asian one, and the remnants of 19th colonial attitudes.
Radha–Your husband’s behaviour is clearer now. Surgeons have immense power in the world and their families, and must be able to take charge, make decisions, and take risks. That one chose you who is also so “humanistic” is a real plus. We all need a “wife” or at least a fulltime domestic helper!
American Bedu–I agree that sometimes what we view as being helpful backfires, especially because in my experience it is sometimes seen as being weak, naive or an easy target.
Susie–good for you!
PS I have also been with the inlaws when my husband gives me a reminder, or a suggestion, and caught one BIL (not biological) smirking in satisfaction that he is “bringing me into line” (which of course he isn’t even trying to do).
Abu Sinan–amongst all your other endeavours perhaps you should start a halal matrimonial service!
It seems to me that a lot women married to Saudi men did not understand the culture & what they are getting themselves into. I understand that I did not just make a revelation but I find it very naive that people get married without fully comprehending whom they are getting married to. As the saying goes, in order to understand the man you have to understand his past & where he is coming from.
The so called “transformation” is NOT a surprise! There are certain traditions that are followed. The Saudi man or even a Saudi woman feels “free” from tradition and societal pressures in the West & tends to excercise certain aspects of his/her personality. The saudi guy talks to all the girls at his college, flirts & has fun. When he flies home for vacation, he conforms. This is not necessarily a trick excercised upon the poor Western woman. It is just the way it is.
Maybe people should not expect everyone to be just like them. There are many realities out there.
Example: Here in the US, I talk and laugh loud with my friends as I see them on the street. I love it & I don’t see a problem with that. When I am in the Middle East, it would be odd if I do the same. I respect the culture and as a girl, I refrain from laughing out loud with men in public. (simple example)
As the Al Qassim Saudi said marriages take place primarily for the reasons he mentioned. That is also true about many other countries in the Middle East maybe with the exception of the following one:
• “The young man is either going to study abroad or work abroad and should be married before leaving the Kingdom.”
Again, I do not personally see a problem with any of those reasons. It is part of the Middle Eastern culture to act upon those reasons & there are both happy and unhappy marriages born of them. In the West, there are also many odd reasons for wanting to get married & one is being pregnant even though the woman is not really in love but wants to be with the man because of financial reasons.
Benefits of male circumcision
http://www.circinfo.net/health-benefits-and-reviews.html
@Susie – WHEW! I was beginning to worry that we were going to have to get a posse together to come kidnap you!.
I have known at least two grown men (both born in Greece) who ended up having circumcisions as adults I can tell you they wished their parents had done it at birth for all the trouble it caused them with yeast infections and such. It’s just not worth the potential harm keeping it intact can bring.
re circumcision.. i think good hygiene is the key, there are studies showing for and against. so far nothing is conclusive either way. btw i’m a urologist so i’ve tried keeping up with the trends, it’s generally accepted that it’s easier to keep clean with the skinoff, also there are studies linking it to reduced incidence of HIV, although i don’t know if it can be proven under strict control groups, however for a fact there no harm taking it off.. so the medical jury is split on this issue.
you don’t even want to know my subspeciality…li didn’t have a decent surgery come my way in ksa for 2yrs.
and my friends pl don’t ask me why i picked this particular field in medicine !!!!! let me just say that the neurosurgery and urology rotations were on the same service schedule..plus the fact that i was young and stupid and leave it at that
Lynn- We had a nurse come into speak to my husband and I in the states to try to talk us out of doing the circumcision on our son. Although I do think it is barbaric to do it to them strapped to a board without knocking them out, I think it’s better that it’s done also when they are young and won’t remember it.
American Bedu – How are you?!!!
Gloria – What planet are you living on? We who married these Saudi men met them in the west (well, most of us did.) These guys were like any other American for the most part. They went to movies, bars, restaurants, mixed parties, etc. I never knew that my husband was in the least bit ‘strict’ until our little baby girl was born. His friend came to the hospital and said, “She’s beautiful, Mash Allah.”
To that I replied, “Yes, just wait till she starts dating!” And he and my husband looked at each other and almost fell on the floor. They both said, “Dating! She’s not going to be dating!!!”
Then, I realized who I was married to. Fortunately for me, my husband has been a wonderful father. His little girl has him wrapped around her finger. I didn’t need to fight any of her battles at all.
Miriam Mac, are you still in the US or did you move to KSA with your Saudi husband?
I would ask all these women that are getting into relationships with an Arab man and it looks like it might be headed for marriage..to do one thing….believe me it will be to your benefit.
Ask your future prospect to behave for about a week as if he were back in his homeland…treat you exactly as if he were home and his family were gathered round keeping a sharp eye out etc…as if the community was lined up with eyes wide open looking for something to point out and gossip about etc…in other words…treat you like he will when he gets you home (not to mean in a bad way but you all understand). I realize you wont get the full effect and all…impossible…but you might get a taste…a hint of things to come. Might open your eyes just a little bit and give you pause for thought…
I know…sounds impossible but hey…anything that helps cant hurt.
Since Mariam Mac has not replied yet I can answer she has been in KSA for more than 30 years — she knows of what she speaks!!
Coolred – your suggestion is great in principle but can you imagine a Saudi man or even a Bahraini man complying if he fears that by doing so he will not get his way (as in the woman agreeing to marry him…)?
i don’t see why everyone is acting so shocked and surprised, there are men in every society that view women as chattel and undress them with their eyes. To me the young man’s generalization could be applied across the board to all men.
why is everyone in denial?
Who said we are shocked…we are more in a state of pissed off…because these very same men that treat us as chattel…act as if they are the epitome of the Muslim man only a few steps down from the Prophet on the taqwa meter…at least thats what I how I see it.
Yep, all men suck. Really it’s men who should be l;ocked up in the house. Especially Arab men.
All girls should be sent to martial arts classes from 6 years onwards, and all this piffle will be at an end. A well trained girl doesn’t need to be ”kept safe”, but can fight her own battles and be free into the bargain.
So , ok, circumcision for boys, martial arts for girls.
Radha, dying to know your specialisation…..
Gloria–I think any person in a longterm marriage will attest that there are surprises and evolutions in each one’s personality and behaviour over time and depending on circumstances. Most are nuances and adaptations but some are more challenging. I think it is important to remember that the person must also adapt and live in their home country, and so is forced to change somewhat as well, including being forced to give legal permissions where none were necessary before.
Thanks for the circumcision link.
Radha–you are full of surprises! I would have chosen neurosurgery over urology but then I am more of a brain/mind person. That said, I always found the urologists to be among the saner, more amenable subgroups in surgery. You must not tease this way, do tell your subspeciality–penile implants? transgendered reconstructions? testicular cosmesis? See, it cannot be more socially challenging than those.
The studies on circumcision I was referring to were the NIH studies in Africa with large numbers showing so conclusively that circumcision helps prevent heterosexual transmission of HIV that the studies were stopped, and treatment provided. A very basic summary is at:
http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/news/QA/AMC12_QA.htm
I think the problem in showing clear benefits otherwise, is in proving it should be done routinely en masse in the West, and some even acknowledge the medical benefits but argue cost effectiveness (which has also been argued effectively). Since if it were proven medically beneficial Medicaid in the US and the health care system would have to pay for it, there is an extra reluctance to say how effective a preventive it is.
The old catholic nuns and Hassidic women have less cervical cancer studies have been updated with well-designed studies showing circumcised men are 1/2 as likely as uncircumcised men to carry and transmit the HPV that causes cervical cancer in women. There is a good lay summary at:
http://www.canada.com/Health/story.html?id=1091598
Miriam Mac–I’ve seen a circumcision on an infant board where the infant board was definitely the most distressful part. I also saw one where the pediatrician did it with the baby asleep in the arms of the nurse who was carrying him to the treatment room. It was done in the hall on the way, and the baby never woke up! New research advises analgesia (including a penile block but no general anesthetic), and shows that the earlier the better for medical healing, and psychological oblivion.
Coolred–I think it is hard for a man to pretend for a week to be in their own country, although since it is difficult to give a tryout by visiting Saudi Arabia may be an option. Certainly discussing and learning ahead are helpful (including the transformative phenomena of family visits, vacations home, and immigrating home–and then expect the unexpected anyway! (hopefully not as unexpected as your situation, but that particular problem has little to do with ethnicity and culture, although the solutions do)
Umm Adam–I think generalizing this young man’s belief to all men would be unfortunate, and unrealistic. Even traditional men in patriarchal cultures don’t see their wives as chattel or breeders (cattle?), but rather are more conservative about family, career, and decision-making.
Hey Aafke…with just the right martial arts kick…Im sure girls could get rid of that pesky little need for circumcision matter in a jiffy….
Miriam Mac,
Last time I checked I was still living on planet earth even though I won’t mind living anywhere else.
What you are complaining about is basic Middle Eastern cultural alphabet. People come in packages & always carry their past with them.
BTW…judging a ME guy on the basis of him going to the movies, bars, restaurants, & mixed parties….is a mistake. All Middle Easterners-regardless of male or female- will act differently in the West than they would in their own country and among their family & friends.
If a girl has premarital sex here in the West, then she might be merely sleeping with the man she loves. That is no big deal & no one judges her.
But in the Middle East, she will be branded as a *****.
I think most Western ladies married to Saudis simply did not understand ME culture.
Chiara,
Are you an anthropologist?
anthrogeek10
‘I think most Western ladies married to Saudis simply did not understand ME culture’
I just don’t get it. They must not have spent any time with him and other Arabs because that is where it will come out. They are so unbelievably concerned with what other people think more than what they themselves believe or know. It is all about appearances, facts seem irrelevant.
Lynn, as one of the “older generation” who is married to a Saudi I can attest that when the Saudi is out of the Kingdom, he truly is a different person. And for the western woman who falls in love with a Saudi when he is outside, ‘this’ is the man whom she falls in love with. I’m so grateful that I had experience and exposure in the ME region and to its culture prior to marriage to my husband. While I realize not every woman may have that opportunity then I hope blogs like mine and other information is more readily available simply to open the women’s eyes and encourage them to be informed of the man, his culture and customs.
Anthrogeek–no I am not but I read alot of cultural anthropology in relation to other areas of specialization including cross-cultural medicine (and publish on it). And some of my best friends are anthropologists (the real kind with a PhD in anthropology, a thesis on some obsure group, and a university position
) 
Gloria–I would say based on experience that some are aware of their husband’s culture and others not. The recommended scenario in cross-cultural marriages is to know about and visit the other person’s family and country prior to marriage. Because of visa restrictions in Saudi this is harder to do.
Lynn–spending time with the expat or student community does give insight into the culture but is still not the same as living in it in the country itself. It is a start though!
American Bedu–I agree with your perspective, and that the blog serves a very useful purpose in this regard, and by extension to other non-Saudi Arab and Islamic cultures.
I can also say that even visits home result in different aspects of my husband’s behaviour and personality coming out, which change again when we leave. Also women should not underestimate the family’s influence, especially when living in the country, but even from afar.
Radha–I’ve got it–you run a vasectomy clinic!
If your blog doesn’t open their eyes and make them look before leaping I don’t know what will.
Carol, besides your experience and exposure to the ME region you had the advantage of having more experience with life in general since you were older and had been married before you met your husband. I think that puts you on a whole different plane than these kids that are 19 or 20 and head over heels in love and willing to follow him wherever he goes ‘as long as we are together we can deal with anything …’.
If someone becomes a completely different person in different settings how that person not a phoney? If my husband was a different person (especially one that I did not like) in another setting then we would have to either leave that setting permanently or get a divorce! Personal integrity means a lot to me and I just cannot fathom a person with integrity becomming a different person just because he is in a different location.
Chiara – ‘spending time.. is still not the same as living in it in the country itself’ . Of course it isn’t but it was certainly enough to tell me that I didn’t want to live there or marry someone from there. But, that is my personality, I realise that others might very well be very happy living that life. But my point is that I WAS able to see it without living there and without the benefit of the internet and all the access it gives you to the world.
I can understand your perspective Lynn and it does seem like a contradictory of terms. I like to believe that I am the same person one meets and knows whether in Saudi, USA or any where else in the world! But again, I came from an open and unpretentious culture and background so this is natural and normal for me. For those who come from Saudi with so many culture aspects that are private and prohibitive, I can see where they perhaps feel more of a need for “multiple personalities.”
Lynn at 8:27–I agree with most of what you have said, except for the phoney part. Most often it is simply drawing on different aspects of oneself or different manifestations of them. Sometimes the swings are more dramatic, and in some instances there is true stable change or clear deception. Most times couples work it out or don’t form in the first place, or decide their marriage will only work in one culture or another, or even a third culture.
Lynn at 8:44–I agree that spending time in the expat or student community is valuable and for some that is enough information good or bad.
However, a further step would be to visit the country to see how life happens in that context, and meet all the people who haven’t had the opportunity to live abroad, or the one’s who have and now return with an even more traditional and sometimes xenophobic view of how life should be in their country. It also gives some insight into how your “friend” and their family behave towards you in that country (although being legally married changes the dynamic). I was lucky to have had this opportunity long before we contemplated marriage. It gives a living example of what the theory means, before major commitments.
A good example for me of adjustment was in a collection of academic articles on cross-cultural marriage. It described a French woman married to a Moroccan living in a major Moroccan city. She described how the fact that his family was educated, cosmopolitan, wealthy and Europeanised helped her adjustment; but also than her husband requested she wear more modest European style clothes during her forays into the trendy area. Comments had been made to him by family and friends, which were making his life as an honourable husband defending the respectability of his wife more difficult if the skirts were too mini, and the stilettos too high. She agreed, with no further problems, and gave it as an example of reasonable compromise.
Thanks for your comments
PS–I would agree, American Bedu, that the constraints of some cultures (and the individual representing the whole family) require a more marked shift.
Carol, see the thing is, I have been educated to believe that ‘mulitple personalities’ is a bad thing that requires treatment! LOL
@chiara – ‘a further step would be to visit the country to see how life happens in that context’
But why would you do that if you have seen what you don’t like before you even go there?
‘…f the skirts were too mini, and the stilettos too high’
LOL, I can’t understand THAT either! Meaning why she would want to dress that way!
But seriously if he truly has no problems with her dressing that way outside of Morocco how is it that he is not able to explain his acceptance of it to the people that he cares about? Were there others dressed like her or was she the only one that dressed that way in that town?
i don;t understand the multiple personalities too, but i can accept a bit of change. even i don’t dress the same way in india as i do in the US. but if anyone changes to the extent a saudi male does that’s the big issue.
@chiara – My husband is the neuro ( aka ..ones with the bloated head god complex) he just persuaded me into urology because that’s the closest i could get to surgery and be on the same day/night schedule as him during the crazy intern days. i don’t think i want the responsibility of messing up someone’s brains
@aafke – my sub is male infertility / with it’s associated surgeries , i do run vasectomy clinics.. any wonder i was pretty much jobless in ksa
not only do they believe in single handedly populating planet earth, they live in denial of their problems, must the womens fault if they can’t perform or reproduce….
Radha: woehahahaaaaaaa
it’s a wonder you got a job aty all!
I understand your point of view Lynn!
Lynn–I guess my point that they are not truly usually displaying multiple personalities was lost. The problem with her dress was that it was too far on the side of risquee even for a European which was drawing negative attention, so minor modifications were all it took to resolve the issue. The same way I wear a bikini but not a monokini on a private beach in Morocco, or shorts but not short-shorts, or in the city a hemline in the vicinity of the knee.
Radha–I love neurosurgeons! In my experience they are among the more enlightened. I did a neurosurgery elective that had me seriously contemplating a residency, but I never would have survived the general surgery part of it (unfortunately had met up with two of the evil ones who give all surgeons a bad name). One of my best friends is a neurosurgeon, who survived one of the God complex ones (mostly by hiding in neuroradiology for 6 months)–she also finds driving on the commuter highway more stressful than messing with the 3rd ventricle.
Yes, impressive how in certain cultures only women are responsible for infertility (Iran has problems with tuberculosis, a third world illness, but the best IVF clinics–which double as divorce-prevention clinics).
Different environments do elicit different behavior from people. It’s not about multiple personality disorder, it’s more along the lines of doing what the Romans do when in their environment.
The Saudi man or woman doesn’t become a different person altogether when they go back home, they are merely responding appropriately to stimuli in their environment. And if I were to think that this person I know here becomes a completely different person when there, I’d take the one here as his/her true side, (if there ever is a true side, multi-faceted as we are, there is no black and white side to our personalities) since it’s a free country as opposed to there where they will have to watch their every single move and are pressured by society to conform.
But people do change over time, their interests and preferences change, they learn, they grow, they also get influenced by people around them, by their work and environment. So it should come as no surprise that people change their ways when they visit their families. Over here it’s just you two, over there, it’s you two and 400 other family members. lol
The non-Saudi wives who are shocked the most are the ones with the least information about the differences in cultures. And the differences are great, so the experience of moving to the kingdom without much knowledge of how life runs over there can be very unsettling.
Carol’s blog is truly a gem. If anyone is planning to visit Saudi for the first time or getting to know a Saudi guy, do go through American Bedu’s posts because they cover the widest range of information, everything and anything from marriages to work to people, places and way of life, to laws, lack thereof and those above them!
I’ve learned a lot. Thank you Carol
And thanks to your readers too, I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate their insights 
Thank you very much Tee! Greatly appreciate the kind and supporting words.
Let me just start by stating, I have yet to read one single comment by coolred that is positive about any Saudi, or Arab men in general. Not all men are alike; you had one bad experience with one particular man.
As for the rest of you who are coming down hard on Saudi men, let me just say that Saudi men are the most kind, and generous you will ever meet. And that is why so many western women are marrying Saudi and Arab men. And to those who are giving advice against western women contemplating marrying a Saudi. Let me just say no body is putting a gun to their head, my ex-American girl friend was all gung ho about the marriage idea, and the move to Saudi Arabia, I had to put an end to it because I loved her too much and knew that she will be like a fish out of water. It is not because Saudi, or KSA is bad, it just there are too many cultural differences. I think Saudi men, and women have easier time of adapting abroad than American. Many American have not ventured outside their state lines yet alone out of the country.
At the end love conquers all, and it can break all barriers, and as far the young Saudi man you referred to Carol, I flatly reject his notion that most marriages in KSA are loveless, even arranged marriage have a lot of love, and compassion. Come on people (Aafake included) give us some credit.
A Saudi Man–thank you for speaking up, and I agree that it is easy to focus on the negative and forget the positive. It is also hardest for women with little cross cultural experience to make the transitions, as they have had little practice, and fewer ideas about alternative lifestyles to their own. One American-Moroccan marriage I know of split up (in the US) despite a great deal of love, commitment, and effort, in part because the American wife was trying very hard, but had had no experience (not even a tourist visit) of her husband’s culture beyond his westernized self and his westernized brother in the US. Their struggle was sad because of their obvious love and caring for each other. He has since married another American who was an army brat and well travelled, and they are happily living in Morocco.
A Saudi Man – thanks for sharing your views. I’m not sure if I would encourage or discourage a western woman from marrying a Saudi man. It’s not only the cultural differences and extended family involvement that need to be taken into account, but the additional implications when children are involved too. I would hope that a western woman would have her eyes open for as you pointed out yourself, you feared your own girlfriend would be a fish out of water in Saudi Arabia. I’m in the States now for a short duration only and while I am enjoying being here, it also reinforced to me how much Saudi has indeed become home.
Within the constructs of ones own home, it’s possible to create any culture the couple deems necessary or provides pleasure, enjoyment and comfort. That is specifically what the home is.
While I “get” the concept of being well-traveled, I don’t think this is a conclusive prerequisite.
There are certainly numerous cultures existing within the United States, and sub-cultures to those cultures. You could be within New York city alone, which has no shortage of any number of cultures. Traveling within the States, you get a flavor of them, even in your workplace you learn to navigate through and amongst the “cultures” existing there, add to it liaising with other businesses, still more cultures.
I agree that it’s not the same as being in the country itself, but it does have some similarities.
Additional introductory experience can be gleaned from those maintain some semblance of national continuity, knowing the eventuality of rotating back (e.g. the diplomatic corp) and who require their reintroduction to be easier, have maintained components, if not solely maintained it while abroad.
Those of us in the US, for example, who’ve known, visited, lived within these and other cultures and people(s) while in the States, have to some degree “traveled” … lived amongst, but have, when needed, found our solace within our own cultures, whilst “trying it on for size” so to speak.
Don’t be so quick to say America doesn’t have it’s numerous variety of cultural experiences that could and would lend themselves well to a successful adaptation abroad, in any given country.
While certain components can be difficult, could it also be that ultimately it’s the people within the family unit within whom any spouse will hopefully be welcomed, thus making for a successful living situation?
If you’ve those around you who are friendly, supportive, welcoming, and you create your home as it should be, a place of comfort and solace, often somewhat therapeutic to the ick with which the world often assails, you have opportunity for success.
Yes, there will most certainly be some who will be a fish out of water, but there are steps in introducing a a new fish the a new aquarium, the ph balance, the conditions the fish likes, is it fresh water or tropical?
Basically, it’s up to you and the fish … and the other guppies, etc. if you want to do it or not – if you love enough for the effort to be worth it.
No? … Yes? … Maybe?
Regarding travelling within a country or immersing oneself in an expat community or visiting a different country, I have done all 3, and it seems to me that while some people are naturally more flexible than others, actually living in the mainstream of another country is more challenging than experiencing it from afar or remaining in an expat community of one’s own.
This is born out by the experience of numerous French friends who spent a majority of their university time with North African students, but still faced major cultural challenges when they immigrated (with family challenges and supports as well) to North Africa.
Also most cross cultural marriage research emphasizes learning as much as possible about each other’s culture to be best able to adapt, support each other, and anticipate and resolve problems. Most suggest that children are the biggest challenge. However, immersing oneself in another culture is a major challenge, and some couples find that a third country suits them best.
Not everyone adapts and not all marriages survive, but the ones that do usually involve compromise on both sides, and the couple’s agreement on issues about the children.
While I would never pretend to Iranianness, my experience in a very different Islamic country, Morocco, still made alot of the cross cultural experiences of a conference easier for me than for others who had travelled in, but not lived in Muslim cultures, or lived in multicultural cities in North America. eg. when we walked into a banquet setting the women of the group found ourselves in a separate room, one woman remarked “We are being excluded” and most agreed, while I was thinking “Oh, must be formal”.
Of course it was easiest for the Muslim couple from Africa who had spent 5 years studying in Iran.
All the steps of learning through reading, friends, blogs, Little Arabia in your home city, other cross cultural experiences, study abroad and travel help with the steps TOWARD adaptation. Also people who choose to explore other cultures are self-selected for adaptability, while some remain in an ethnic bubble no matter where on the globe they live.
To come back to the theme of the post, “to provide further understanding and sensitivity on the issue of marriages and segregation as practiced in Saudi Arabia”, that particular cross-cultural hurdle seems to be more of a challenge than some others, and the more experience in similar cultures, and countries the better.
Carol, thanks for answering for me. : ) Has your husband transformed back into his ‘old’ self yet?
A Saudi Man – It’s funny that you didn’t marry your girlfriend because you knew that the ‘cultural differences’ would be so difficult. to overcome. It’s not easy and it depends on how interfering your family here in KSA would be in your daily life. Obviously, you wouldn’t have had an easy time. That must have been very difficult.
Yes, Saudi men are the most generous, polite, kind, intelligent, and sometimes handsome men a young woman could meet…espeicially in college where they tend to run into each other.
However, many Saudi men go to our country, sign our legal documents saying they are single when, in fact, they’re actually promised to, or still married to, a cousin. And then, they get upset when their ‘western’ wife doesn’t understand the ‘culture here!’
Give me a break.
I understand the culture just fine….but it’s a man’s world here and any western woman coming here to Saudi …especially from another religion, should be forewarned what she is about to get herself into and all the legal possibilities as well.
30 years ago, there was no manual out about the rules of this culture. I found out everything I know from watching it happen to friends here in KSA. With the internet…as long as she’s interested in knowing the facts, all women should be ‘in the know’ now.
When you fall in love at a young age, you just want to be together at any cost….or so you think. Actually, you aren’t really thinking in your right mind. So, someone or some government agency needs to look out for these innocent women and sit them down and make sure they understand the playing field by filling them in on how things work here. Is that Saudi bashing? No. That’s just learning how to play the game by the rules.
For example, when I got married, I didn’t know that my husband had to sign me and our childlren out of the country and that if anything happened to him, his father would be in charge of us. I didn’t realize that I’d have to then get permission from his father to leave. (I know a lady that was stuck here with her kids for 8 years —unable to leave after her husband died just for that reason!!) I didn’t know that he had the right to have secret wives…and other secret children. (My friend just found out that her husband married several years ago and has a new baby!) I didn’t know that it was ok for a Saudi man and his friends to lie to their wives to keep their marriages together. I didn’t know that giving money to a husband during the marriage or even paying half of the house, that the wife might not get anything if they divorced; and very little if he died….unless he gave her a paper which said he ‘owed’ her that money that she so innocently gave him. (I know a lady that went back home with nothing after 25 years in this country). I didn’t know that he would have to sign a paper giving her permission to work outside the home. etc..etc…
It’s not just about the ‘transformation’ of the Saudi….it’s also the rules of the playing field. And, if you haven’t played the game as a woman here…..then you just really don’t get it.
I’m happy here….but that’s not the case of everyone.
Susan, I agree that you don’t have to go and live in different cultures when you live in the United States. There are any number of cultures that you could live among here and forget you are in the U.S.. I do not for a minute doubt that someone could very easily go and live In Saudi Arabia or any other foreign culture and get along just fine if they knew what they were getting into and had a desire for that lifestyle. There are some people that were born and raised in the United States that seem more like visitors from a foreign land here and I think that they would fit in in Saudi Arabia very well.
Miriam Mac–thanks for illustrating the dilemma with specific examples, and highlighting the inescapable laws for everyone, not just the personal attributes of the individuals involved.
Miriam, I don’t think anyone else could have summarized more eloquently the cultural and legal distinctions with succinct examples of what every woman should be aware if involved with a Saudi. And like you said, this is in no way a “Saudi bash” but simply stating the realities.
And Lynn, I’m probably one of those individuals who are an American but seem more like a foreigner in America…. I think I’ve just lived too long outside of the States that even when I’m back in the States, after a period of time I find myself getting very restless again.
Lynn– I don’t think I ever implied travel was necessary or that people with no cross-cultural experience couldn’t adapt, only that it helps. Thinking you know what you are getting into and living it are two different things, or at least that is what my American friends and patients in Hong Kong told me, and my patients of various ethnicities tell me here. After the first 2 years they have either adapted or left.
Lynn, sometimes it gives a person pause to consider the plausibility of reincarnation.
My family has been here in the USA since before its inception, were instrumental in the continuity of Maryland’s first colony in St. Mary’s County (Heydon/Hayden), as well as being a fifth-generation great-granddaughter of John Hart of New Jersey who signed the Declaration of Independence, then throw in for good measure a Pennsylvanian, who signed the US Constitution as a North Carolina delegate.
So, there are times, I do certainly give pause over a great many things, including how I became Muslim.
@Tee, I agree with you. Very good points:-)
@A Saudi man, I really enjoyed reading your comment.:)
Carol, I didn’t picture you as one who is like a foreigner here in the U.S. Do you think that part of your restlessness when you are here is due to the fact that you are not at home? I’m eager to get home if I’ve been away for too long. When was the last time you lived here for any length of time?
Susan how do you think you would do living in Saudi Arabia or another ‘Islamic’ country?
Lynn, I think it is part of not being at home in my own home as well as having lived so much outside of the USA. Last time I lived in the States for any length of time was circa 1996 but even then I traveled extensively internationally.
I have no idea, Lynn … might depend on who’s living it with me.
but then again, I don’t know how I would do if I were living in any other city in the US … I would hope I’d do somewhat alright.
Thank you to all of you…. life in Saudi for a South African is amazing. Some of the things very similar to our country. But thankfully it changed. But change only comes when people talk about it I believe. How can you fix something if you don’t acknowledge problems or challenges… so hats off to you all.
Welcome and thank you for your comment, Alta. I agree; one must begin with dialogues and exchanging views and perceptions.
Forgive me for being ignorant – but if I was treated badly would I not teach my son differently? Or is this way off line? Sometimes I think it is woman that keep woman in this situation.
Alta–women do perpetuate the system, but also try to change it via their sons and daughters. Unfortunately, learned observed behaviour often overwhelms teaching, and people find themselves doing exactly what they swore never to repeat of their parents’ interactions. Throw in the dominant ambient culture and the past easily repeats itself.
Alta, you can’t blame women from continuing the situation. Given the way many women are being indoctrinated and slowly having their minds broken in these countries its a miracle tyhat there are so many who reject being put down.
It’s a well known fact in psycology that programming starts at babylevel, and the babies will be inluenced especially by the opposite sex parent. So if a father has very a derogatory stance against women, the baby will grow up also despising women, and herself, as the whole system, the schools, society is geared towards making women weak and break their spirits. As a mother she will influence her sons and her daughters, and so the evil continues.
and don’t forget about the impact of segregation… a woman may try to teach her son differing views and perspectives but then from around 11 years old, he starts getting segregated with the men and exposed to their views and beliefs.
Aafke, don’t you agree this is an issue across the globe. Seeing both sides of this, yes, there is a mindset perpetuating an “under my thumb (or foot for that matter), but at the same time, I also see what Alta is saying that when it comes time to stand up, we don’t often recognize the strength of one single effort.
Take for example Rosa Parks, Alice Paul, Lucy Burns (referenced in the HBO film “Iron Jawed Angels) http://www.hbo.com/films/ironjawedangels
But this thinking isn’t solely proportioned to males, finding females also take on this perspective (the beating down, breaking of spirit, character assassination) – it happens in business and social settings all the time!.
This is where Chiara can comment perhaps in regard to how, in order to achieve an ends, be it balanced or imbalanced, both men and women apply less than wholly beneficial means.
Carol, the man is the head but the woman is the neck and can turn the head.
A youth may get ideas and different thoughts at the impressionable age preceding puberty, but in knowing this, can the women of the family intervene and redirect toward a more balanced and equitable perspective.
Knowing these perspectives exist particularly more so in specific areas/regions of concern, women (as Alta suggests) can intervene.
lol, I’m not sure if it’s always in the modus operandi of the response to saying you hate your mother –
I know you get my point.
American Bedu–thanks for specifying the impact of segregation, I hadn’t thought about it in that way.
Aafke–I think you underestimate that some women are happy in what others might view as unfavourable roles. They may even advocate change but not in the same way as we might think.
Susan–I think it is important to point out that “solo efforts” are in fact usually collective ones, including the famous Rosa Parks story which usually leaves out that she was part of the NAACP and was trained in civil disobedience strategies. The NAACP had tried to back a similar move as hers previously but the woman proved to be socially undesirable, whereas Rosa Parks was a married, church going respectable woman. Her fine was paid by the civil rights movement keeping her out of jail, and her action part of a broader movement to provoke change in Montgomery and beyond. She is no less commendable for this.
As regards your last statement, some people of both genders have an “ends justifies the means” attitude which manisfests itself in a variety of ways, in a variety of places–at least in my experience.
Oops, one Susan comment behind! I was referencing Susan at 5:18pm.
Susan at 5:30pm– Are you referencing the Saudis speak louder thread? Did you want to comment there? What is your point? Perhaps you could make it there.
Would what she did be along the lines of this?
http://www.aforcemorepowerful.org/
It wouldn’t really matter at the end of the day which, whether the socially undesirable or the socially accepted were viewed more worthy of being treated equitably. Perhaps it was the one less respected was so due to previous malevolence – but either way – it doesn’t erase that both are to be treated with human dignity.
Consider, Magdalene … I see your point, but in their action in the Bible Belt, the heavily Christian Baptist south … it ultimately drew attention to a great hypocrisy … even to the least of us.
Susan at 5:53pm–It was the NAACP who decided the other woman was too socially undesirable to back, since she was single and sexually active or some such. They were afterall doing what was best for their civil rights movement and succeeded.
Chiara, it was Carol’s comment at 5:07 … tho incorporating and cross referencing the example in the occasion of the how can you say you hate your mother! Slap … x_x
Carol drew attention to the reality of sons at 11 years of age preparing for manhood and thereby keeping more company with the men of the family, who while in their company may and will be exposed to alternate ideas of “how to deal with women” and may venture toward less than equitable notions and practices.
My building on that reality was that women to, can be more interactive with their sons (and daughters) and redirect / balance, discuss, reason when these alternate viewpoints are raised.
Chiara, thanks for clarifying that it was the NAACP who made the distinction.
lol, though it draws a sharper hypocrisy to some pastors who too were married and were still indeed sexually active outside their marriage.
Susan–thanks for clarifying!
Susan at 6:05pm–Indeed!
I am going to go back to my view that there is not a “one size fits all” solution … and that those of us who are western do view the lives and traditions of Saudi women very differently than perhaps the Saudi women do! Many excellent suggestions are made but I will point out from individuals who have not been to and do not live in Saudi Arabia. It is always easy from afar to believe one has a solution to what is viewed as a problem but may not necessarily be based on the realities (ie, the mess Bush and company made of Iraq…)
You will have Saudi women who will speak out on what they believe as injustices and where they want change. You will also have other Saudi women speak out on how satisfied they are and do not want change. Whose right? Whose wrong? And why?
And yes, a mother can make every instance to steer and direct her child, but again do not forget the importance of face in Saudi Arabia as well. Is a Saudi male going to readily do something or act in a manner that may make him appear to his peers and other male family members as a male cuckold? I think that it takes both the father and mother to instill the values and traits in a son to be caring, compassionate and supportive of the needs, desires and wants of female relatives and recognize those who desire the opportunities for more independence.
Saudi in US..
Many of my comments are negative yes…but Ive been here 23 years and MY single bad experience as you so delicately labeled it is not the only one I speak from…Im surrounded by women, native and non native that have had “bad” experiences and are still having them.
As a matter of fact many times when Im having a negative conversation with a group of ladies (Bahrainis) they might point out to me that I do have very negative opinions of Arab men and that it isnt fair…many of them are good men. I dont deny the fact that there are good Arab men….but MY personal perspective is that good Arab men are generally good to other men and to women they are not related too…period. That is my experience…that is what I have witnessed…I can only READ (on the net and other places) of other women with more positive experiences concerning their marriages…but my personal experience has not positive…and I havent personally come across a woman over here that is genuinely happy with her arab husband…and that includes the natives.
yes all marriages have ups and downs…Im talking about a single woman that will actually admit she is happy she married him and wouldnt get a divorce in a heartbeat if it didnt mean losing her children…facing family and community backlash…and facing life here as a used up divorcee.
So until my personal experience proves ALL Arab men are not the same…then my comments will be based purely on my own point of view…for I have no other at the moment.
oops..that comment was meant for Saudi Man
American Bedu–I agree with your comment and appreciate the specific examples you give. In the same way most men anywhere don’t want to be seen as a cuckold, most women don’t want to be treated like a whore. Change from within, if there is going to be change, is the most effective–even if there is support from the outside.
We don’t readily accept others telling us our Western culture results in “women behaving like men” or men being “castrated”. Why should we decide for others?
Sort of late to the party, but what can you do? So many interesting threads to react to…
on the cuckhold: my husband is a wonderful man and we equally share household duties. Little did I realize, until we went to his country, and hung out with his countrymates (not Saudi, but Muslim) that he does feel the need to present a different face to them. He thinks they will start talking about him and us if they see him being “dominated” by his wife. In fact, his own aunt even warned me not to let his parents see him washing dishes or they would be shamed! haha. that and this blog are why I will Never move to his country permanently.
on the crossculture and women’s expectations thing: after many subtly snide comments from the in-laws, I finally stooped to their level: after staying with my husband and I for the first time, my mother-in-law took me aside and told me quietly that she was so relieved to see we have a nicely decorated and warm, welcoming house. She wasn’t sure about american women and their nuturing aspect.
I couldn’t help myself and replied, “oh, don’t worry, we have our stereotypes too. Everyone was worried about me marrying a Muslim and being repressed, but now they see that Darling Husband is not like that and are also relieved.” That shut her right up! Though of course I did feel guilty afterwards.
Hi tanya,
so gave up ont he effort. and i’m not even white !! sigh!!!!
Don’t feel guilt.. Initially i tried being nice and accomodating and then after a while figured out, actually my SIl told me if i was not very co-operative then i would be ” the mean loose witch who stole our son”…and if i was nice and agrreable to their demands the i would be the ” mean loose witch who acts sweet and stole their son”
There are a set of cutural norms in ksa just like anywhere else and change is often hard, the only issue i have with ksa is their treatment of women, but apart from that i understand where they come from, even if i had married an indian guy indian of saudi, from another region/language/state in india i would have met some resistance. Family is very important but i guess you can ignore them ( as long as you have your spouse’s support)..an of course you need to snoop to their level if you have to get them off your back. just smile ..
Tanya–interesting comment. A famous Moroccan psychiatrist has written about a case of post-partum depression that when the woman became severely ill and psychotic, the husband did the housework and cooking. When she recovered she felt that he had demeaned himself, and wasn’t acting like a man–they needed marital therapy to stay together. His kindness + desire to protect her from others thinking ill of her illness backfired– at least initially.
Radha–hilarious and a propos as usual. “of course you need to snoop to their level”–I assume you meant stoop but in my experience snoop also works well here. Some (Freudian?) slips are accurate both ways.
I have had many an Indian university student as a patient who was committing the horrendous crime of dating, and worse dating someone from the “wrong” part of India (usually a North-South combo) 
As long as you have your husband’s support you are reasonably okay with handling family, otherwise it’s over. Smiling has so many meanings… (including Hamlet’s “smiling vilain” stepfather Claudius) 
I hear the drums beating and the male singer singing across the street now, and I am wondering who is getting married now. They also had a wedding last week…but there are quite a few family members that live behind this particular gate. They seem to be reproducing enough to start a new village. : )
So, here I sit, and I’m wondering if this guy is bringing home his first, second, third or fourth wife? Well, it’s really none of my business and what one does here is up to them. Just don’t mess with my American sisters or I’ll get all riled up!
chiara – yes i meant stoop..
atleast there’s some variety in the gene pool here .. all that’s left is for my kids to marry a christian and maybe buddist/jew etc., then we’ll have the major world religions covered 
If they think dating across the north-south indian divide was bad, imagine the reaction my dating life would have evoked — Diff Country, Diff Language, Diff religion, Diff food and a whole lot more , My folks begged me to stick to the same country atleast . We told them since i didn’t pick a south indian tamil brahmin, might as well go for broke
chiara – yes i meant stoop..
atleast there’s some variety in the gene pool here .. all that’s left is for my kids to marry a christian and maybe buddist/jewish etc., then we’ll have the major world religions covered 
If they think dating across the north-south indian divide was bad, imagine the reaction my dating life would have evoked — Diff Country, Diff Language, Diff religion, Diff food and a whole lot more , My folks begged me to stick to the same country atleast . We told them since i didn’t pick a south indian tamil brahmin, might as well go for broke
Carol, absolutely, there’s not a one size fits all.
The cuckhold thingy: lol, I think a wife will hopefully like her husband’s face, they together as husband and wife will form their own family within, I guess, the collective family.
But at the same time, can’t he be a cuckhold of the collective family?
I think it takes strength in a man to see the benefit of equitable husband / wife relations, where maybe there are no leaders, but a mutual loving partnership. So? A wife to help her husband’s cute face can say “my husband is to smart, he is wise and instructs our son / daughter … etc.
I sure don’t want a cuckhold!
Oh … sign … Spring is coming …
Oh … sigh … Spring is coming …
You see, Spring *is* coming — we’re getting dithered and posting the same thing twice
Radha–you will definitely be at a loss for words, about your children’s marital choices regarding ethnicity and religion. “But Mom, you and Dad….” Unless of course they manage to find their love among the mixed Saudi/Indian Muslim/Hindo population!
Tho the “but Mom, you and Dad … ” is generally followed with “that was different, it was a different time”
May we all spend our days and nights with the one who makes our toes curl.
Miriam Mac wrote: “Studying with a few Saudi young men in the states was very interesting. They treated me with respect, asked my opinion, and even borrowed my notes and many times, we studied together. But, after marrying my husband, these same, ‘educated’ ‘westernized’ Saudis asked me why I was sitting with them when they visited my husband here in Jeddah at our home. Wow, I was shocked. I couldn’t believe that these were the same guys I had taken classes with.”
Imagine an American woman living in KSA gets to know several Saudi women. She treats them with respect, studies with them, borrows their notes, they ask her opinion. They go out shopping & lunching together in Riyadh. Eventually this American woman returns to the U.S. Time passes and one such friend calls with exciting news — her husband’s been transferred & they will be living in America!
So the American woman goes to meet up with her old friend at a Mimi’s. And her Saudi friend is still veiled from head to toe, abaya, niqab, etc.! French toast & orange juice are served by a gawking waiter. Other patrons stare, looking offended and scandalized. And this American woman is also horrified — even repulsed.
She demands of her friend, “Wait a minute, you’re in AMERICA now. What the hell are you wearing?! How can you dress / act like this?!” The American woman can’t believe this is the same friend she attended classes with.
Acting Saudi in Saudi is one thing, acting Saudi in Peoria quite another. Just as acting American in America is one thing … acting American in Saudi quite another.
Mahla–an excellent example of the reverse scenario. I’m sure this happens fairly frequently with other cross cultural friendships as well. Some people have the idea that all Saudi women are just waiting to assimilate to American cultural norms, once free of their oppressors. Some level of acculuration is necessary to anyone anywhere, otherwise the person would be dysfunctional, but there is a broad range within that acculturation of psycho-socially healthy choices. Sticking out as different must be balanced with core beliefs, and adaptation involves meeting legal requirements.