One will always hear references of the closed and conservative culture of Saudi Arabia. And the culture is the most closed and conservative when it comes to protecting privacy. This can be protecting the privacy of an individual, a couple and/or a family. Saudis value privacy and even the most innocuous or happy moments that one may typically wish to shout out in a western world will not happen in Saudi Arabia. For example, it is customary to keep engagements private. A couple may be engaged for a year before other members of the extended family will realize an agreement to marry was in place. It is customary to keep silent about illness. If a family member has a disease or is ill, a family may choose to keep this information private. The family may eventually acknowledge a family member is ill but will not advise the true cause or diagnosis of the illness. A Saudi family may have a child who is learning disabled or handicapped in some way. Outsiders may never be aware of the existence of this child. This child may be sheltered from view. A Saudi couple who has been living apart ostensibly under the guise that the spouse lives in one city due to the job and she in another city for the children’s school may actually have been divorced for many years but it is not openly acknowledged. These are just some of the examples of which I am aware of how some Saudis will choose to guard their privacy.
Is this type of privacy a good cultural practice?
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very bad for democracy
I can understand about keeping an engagement private. It would make sense because the couple would be getting to know each other during this time to see it it works?
I would, of course, vote that it is not a good cultural practice. All of these instances that you have given as examples are based on negatives like shame and deceit or mistrust. If there is something positive about this deep need for privacy I can’t see it.
For some reason, this post brought to mind the story that was in Arab News a year or so ago. It was about the Saudi woman who had asked for a divorce after something like 20 or 30 years because her husband, who had never seen her face in all that time, lifted her veil and sneaked a peek. Now that is privacy to the extreme in my view.
Maybe the engagement is left private because, not because the marriage might not happen but because who the wife is and where she comes from is also often kept a secret as it is a very private thing. I recall reading where simply saying the name of your friend’s mother can be seen as an insult as it is an invasion of the family’s privacy.
LOOOOL…that is so true! Well, I will have problems with that since I have a big mouth!
I try to keep it shut but most times I do fail:-)
I am American, and Americans are notorious for being very open about themselves and their activities. So this Saudi privacy obsession was a cultural difference with which I struggled..
One must ask, however, why such a custom has taken hold, and what is the benefit in it. I can only speculate, but I suspect that Saudis wish to squelch rumors and gossip. and/or have a false sense of shame about ordinary developments in any family’s life.
Arabs in general are very curious about each other, and judgmental, always asking personal questions and digging for information. Perhaps the Saudi privacy thing is a reaction to that. However, I find it counterproductive in another sense.
Decreased sharing of normal life events limits the joy and help one can give or receive. Isolation in the midst of other people dehumanizes both sides, and allows irrational or unreasonable assumptions to take hold unopposed. For certain people, emotional isolation could be a trigger for mental illness.
That probably goes for other cultures as well, but since we are talking about Saudis, and Saudis are private in the extreme, we might wonder about the extent to which their fanatical privacy causes more difficulty than it’s worth.
I think the difference in the perception of private vs public is one of the biggest Western (and especially American) differences from Arab (and perhaps especially Saudi or Gulf) cultures. It seems to me particularly hard to adjust to the level of secrecy within the extended family, or to know what constitutes normal sharing and chit chat from revealing too much to “outsiders”. I only think it is bad when it prevents a stressed, ill, or disabled person from receiving support and care.
Normal polite privacy and cultural taboos seem to blend in your post. The taboos or stigmas are the ones I believe can be harmful, while the others are a cultural style or preference. I would imagine though this style can leave a foreign wife feeling more silenced or isolated–especially since often everyone knows while pretending not to know.
Is this at all related to the Evil eye in some cases, like with the engagement? In Central Asia, the only majority Muslim area I have been in for extended periods of time, people always keep good things to themselves to prevent the evil eye…but let me say, it drove me crazy!!!!!!! I am american, we always share good news! and bad too…
Keeping in mind the extent with which Saudis are willing to go to “protect” this cultural practice; It would be deemed by most of the developed and undeveloped world as not good and unhealthy.
It is a debilitating practice that borders on psychotic when being practiced ritually. I honestly believe although I have no medical background, it is a massive Societal Problem indicated by intrusive thoughts termed Obsessive Compulsive Disorder OCD. The fear is that a great danger will occur if someone knows a detail about your life and the ritual is keeping your mouth SHUT.
Very unhealthy way of dealing with problems… or reality for that matter…denial…cover-ups…everything is peachy keen…you name it.
Sparky–LOL you do have a bit of a collage of psychiatric terms going there.
I think that it is hard for people from primarily guilt cultures and those from primarily shame cultures to experience the other. That said, a favourite reprimand in French is “Tu n’as pas honte?” or the English equivalent of “Have you no shame?” although these are primarily guilt cultures.
Prevention of gossip, or negative social image, protection from jealous or the evil eye, and the power of knowing without being known all seem to me to be motivators for perpetuating the cultural pattern. Also if the whole family is judged by the behaviour or disability of one member there is a vested interested in not sharing any “negative” information.
I do think whatever negatives are happening within the culture (including lack of supports and treatment for stigmatized but treatable disorders), the phenomenon is harder for foreigners who are more used to sharing with others in a more open way, and have fewer supports within the culture.
On the other hand, sometimes there is too much shared in North America and too much talking where silence would have been better.
This level of secrecy sounds odd to an American ear (or any Western ear). Almost 2 years ago, my wife’s son died (he committed suicide). A man a work asked me how I was. When I said, ‘fine’, he said, you certainly didn’t look fine. I decided to tell him the details. It did allow me to get some level of comfort. One wonders what level of hurt one does to oneself by trying to keep everything private.
Much of this is because of the fear of the “evil eye”. It is superstitious, and I would argue, unIslamic.
Much of it is based on ignorance as well, and the prime example is keeping family members with special needs hidden. There is a wide spread belief that such people are possesed by spirts. There is also a wide spread belief that these special needs children are given to the parents to punish them for being bad people or doing bad things, which of course violates one of the basic beliefs in Islam that someone can only be punished for their sins, not the sins of others. The idea that God would afflict a child because of the actions of the parents is very unislamic.
I would vote that the practice is VERY bad and the vast majority of it related to beliefs, ideas and practices that are not Islamic and harken back to the days of paganism and ignorance.
The perception that mental illness is spirit possession, and disabled children a punishment to parents is tragic. This does result in great harm to all, the afflicted and their families, because of lack of treatment, exorcism, other nefarious folk remedies and guilt.
My SIL with the daughter who died of an infant-onset neurodegenerative disease had a great deal of support from family and the medical system, but did suffer at times wondering what she could have done to be so punished by Allah, and her daughter was the object of rude behaviours by strangers, and rejection by her husband’s family.
Jerry M–I’m glad you were able to share this very difficult type of grief (so difficult there are special grief therapy groups for the families of suicide victims). Your colleague was a good and perceptive person.
In short one does oneself a great deal of physical and psychological harm by keeping psychological pain in. A friend of mine who lost a friend (an internationally famous clinician researcher happily married with children) to suicide consoled herself with the thought that “the disease [depression] won”, rather than thoughts of more personal failings on anyone’s part.
ps…could any non-saudi with a saudi spouse tell us an interesting/challenging time when this happened to him/her?
{{{pulling up soapbox}}}
Secrecey when it comes to a disability of a child is not about keeping a secret but more about shame and an over all negative outlook on individuals with disabilities. The same holds true for illness.
Take for example breast cancer which Saudi has had one of the highest rates of mortality due to this cancer (and most others) because women out of shame would not seek treatment. Most times they arrived to the dr when the cancer had spread to other parts of the body. The holding of a secret has killed people due to their neglect to seek care due to a shame or others blaming them for doing some wrong.
Children with disabilities have lead lonely lives for too many years. They aren’t given the option of reaching their individual potentials because of the shame associated with having a child w/ a disability in the family.
not to say all are like this but for to many are. Keeping an engagement secret is far less destructive socially than keeping an illness secret or a child. {{soapbox put away as I’ll rant in my own space}}
tanya- I have a son with DS and after his diagnosis even though some of the family was told (not like I took out a billboard ad with all the family) the news was never passed on to others and kept a secret. My SIL wouldn’t tell her own daughter who works in a school for children with DS because she was in denial. My SIL sat down and told me how it isn’t true that his “forhead will grow down into his nose” in order to make that nasal bone where children w/ DS are normally flat. When her daughter commented on my sons limbs with are shorter than his torso I said “Yea it is because of his DS” she was floored. I still don’t think half the family knows and he is almost a year old. They are going ot have some shocked faces come April when I visit.. and I will be either amused at their reactions and comments are totally offended.
Susan – in response to your comment about engagements being kept secret while the couples get to know one another, in many cases yet today the engaged couple have no contact UNTIL their marriage!
I am a breast cancer survivor and now very keen to promote preventive care and encourage women to have mammograms. My Saudi family was initially appalled that I not only spoke out openly on this subject acknowledging I had a disease, lost a breast, etc., but even went on Saudi television to discuss the issue as well. And in these efforts I also mention how important it is for the WHOLE FAMILY to support and not just ignore or hide like it is an inflection that is contagious!
I agree with commentors who remarked some of the desire for privacy to the extreme is the belief and fear that remains here of the “evil eye.” In fact when I spoke out about my breast cancer there were some Saudis who asked me in seriousness whether I had offended or insulted someone who has given me the evil eye!
These are aspects of the Saudi culture one cannot understand fully until or even if living in Saudi among Saudis.
about engagements, there is a hadeeth that the prophet said, cant remember it at the moment really, to keep them quiet…
but regarding illnesses or disability, it doesnt happen that much anymore, i speak of what i see in jeddah, dont know about other cities. people are starting to understand that an illness is not their fault, even if they dont admit their illness openly they at least started seeking medical help, which is new.
I have found Jeddah and Makkah to be among the most open minded areas of Saudi but Nej’d to include Riyadh among the most conservative. It is changing but in baby steps.
There’s decent discretion, and there is pathological fobia of secrecy.
What you describe here is the last one.
Anything carried in extremes is unhealthy, and everything seems to be carried into extremes in KSA.
From an anthropological point of view, just looking at the facts, it’s the behaviour of an extremely suppressed society heavily under the yoke of superstition and believes in evil spirits.
It really reminds me of a tribe in Africa which lives under the constant threat of evil spirits; they can’t even tell their real names or the spirits will get holf of them, the only thing which keeps them alive are their own tribal protection spirits. But what a stressful life they lead!
Really if you were not to mention KSA, but only describe the extreme rules and regulations and unreasonable fears the Saudi people live under. The mental stresses, suppression of women, and warped behaviours: You’d swear one is describing a backward, idol and evil spirit riddled, primitive jungle tribe!
LOL @ “You’d swear one is describing a backward, idol and evil spirit riddled, primitive jungle tribe!” Forward thinking Saudis try to keep them caged up and far far away from the public or at least they try to…
Uh yes
I am sorry American Bedu that you faced a load of crap from people who should have supported you. My neighbor is a survivor of breast cancer and I respect her immensely. It is healthy to speak about issues that affect us, so that we may learn. I also faced a load of crap when I discussed some issues publicly as well .
If I had magical powers, I don’t know if I would misuse them hehehe LOL Maybe I would laser beam someone’s testicles off….
I’m not sure it’s just the evk eye that keeps them from telling everyone, It’s also an inborn need for privacy and anything outside the norm is shameful. Not sure i understand it completely. Even in india they keep some things wuiet like they don’t mention a pregnancy till the 3rd month is passed and the probablity of a miscarriage has receded. but then in india they are open about engagements and wedding s.. almost shouting it from the rooftops
But it’s diff in KSA everything is under wraps. Eg. we were married outside saudi, but ofcourse my dh told his folks and also applied for the permit. so everyone in his close family knew, they tried dissuading him, we went ahead and got married after an engagement of almost a yr. infact we sent wedding pics to them both hindu and muslim and he even asked his parents to fly down . imagine my shock when i landed there after more than 4 yrs of marriage and they asked him who i was. his extended family had no idea i existed, let alone planned to live amongst them. It’s v sad and makes you feel like an outsider. the worst hurt is when they bring your dh proposals of girls for marriage right in front of you ( yes i don’t understand the language, but even i’m not that stupid 
)
so chill”.. true he hasn’t followed all the stict tenants of islam wether religious or cultural, but i feel he is a better human being than most and he surely is going to heaven for being a great human being. ( i know i probably offend a lot of muslims and i apologize, it’s not my intention) but i firmly believe being a good human being is what all the religions wanted us to be in the end. Sorry to deviate from the topic but unless you live there and experience the saudi secrecy one cannot imagine how bad and hurtful it is.
so yes the secrecy exists but it’s more a denial thing i think. anyway in my case ot was the last straw, my spouse moved us out of his home the same day, into a hotel and then found alternate accomodation in a less rigid part of the city and cut all ties with his family till they reconciled to the fact that we were a team. As i grow older and hopefully wiser, i see all the sacrifices he made , and the cultural pulls he resisted. He even is clean shaven..and when they saw that wouldn’t beleive the stuff we got blamed for!!! inspite of this he financially supports his parents and talks to them regularly(although onesided) . when i ask him about all they said with him going to hell etc., he laughes it off and says ” it’s decide i’m going to hell now it’s just a metter of how hot the oil is
Asmaa- all my inlaws are in Jeddah and I can’t believe half of the things that comes out of there
no offense. Yes they are seeking medical help but when it comes down to an approach to treatment, or the belief as to what is the cause nothing has changed since my husband was growing up. My SIL who thinks DS is a passing phase of my child is from Jeddah 
Even in Khobar where so many are from the Aramco world and are educated have lived in other parts of the world their approach to illness and disabilities are about the same as in other areas. There is stil soooo much misinformation tied along with superstition that it is hard to progress. Not that it can’t be done of course only that it is difficult.
Bedu- My friend who had breast cancer fought w/ her doctor trying to convince him something was wrong. He denied her, telling her she was a bit paranoid, imagining things, ect ect because he didn’t detect anything in a physical exam. She insisted and pestered him before he would listen. and yes she had cancer, lost a one breast and had chemo and is doing well now.
@Sparky: You and Aafke always manage to bring a big smile to my face.
Rahda: you have certainly had your share of experiences too! And again, thankfullly, you have a caring, supportive and loving husband. I know many Saudi wives who are under no illusion that in the pecking order, the blood relatives (mother, father, etc.) will come before them for fulfilling needs and support.
Nzingha – alhumdillallah you friend is doing well now. And if she ever needs support as someone else who has been through the process, please encourage her to contact me.
Sparky, eeeeh, I thought it was the forward thinking saudis who are locked up?
Radh In the Netherlands it is an old custom too to keep a pregnancy to onesself and closest for three months, because those months are quite crucial.
One hears that so often: When it comes to proposing other wives right in front of the (foreign) wife, all this bashful reticence seems to have melted in the desert sun!
Your hb seems to be a real gem, and I have no doubt will go straight to heaven for being good, honest, loyal, and being in full posession of a backbone.
The not-shaving thing must be all your fault anyway. As you are the woman, you are to be blamed for everything.
Nzingha, one certainly needs standing up to doctors from time to time, and it takes a lot of guts, good for your friend she did!
Bedu, always happy to oblige
So many great comments and examples of the harms of secrecy in terms of social isolation, and medical taboos! Some thoughts:
When illness or disability strikes people, even educated and cosmopolitan ones, often revert to silence, folkloric beliefs and denial, which of course multiply the stress and harms.
The “evil eye” is a very prominent belief in many cultures and usually is invoked to explain the most culturally sensitive topics, like mental illness, disorders of sexualized organs, or disabilities and congenital anomalies. So sad when people don’t get the treatment and support they need.
“The crazy woman in the attic” of Jane Eyre fame is often living in some household where seeking professional help earlier on would have done alot more good.
Breast cancer survivors have been leaders in modelling peer support and effective activism with medical professionals, making a huge impact in the areas of early detection, minimally invasive surgery, reconstructive surgery, and systematic counselling for women, their partners, and the family.
American Bedu– you are doing a wonderful service!
Nzingha–glad you pulled up your soapbox. Try to choose amusement over offense, it’s healthier. Then stand on soapbox qd prn (once daily as necessary).
Tanya–great question.
Radha–enlightening as always.
Aafke–great anthropological analysis of tribal cultures.
Sparky–aim for the spermatic cord.
PS Not telling about a pregnancy, until the first trimester has passed, and the highest period of risk of miscarriage over, is a good example where relative silence is probably best for the couple.
I really don’t see why people really care what you choose to reveal to them or not to reveal to them.
If your father got cancer would go around telling everyone “MY DAD HAS CANCER OHNOES!”? No. You’d seek treatment and treat this as a family matter.
I don’t know how you got that engagements are kept private when weddings are a huge thing in Saudi Arabia. The amount of teasing I’ve gotten from male relatives has been going on for months now and I doubt it will stop after I marry.
Mohamed S–thanks for sharing an alternative view (and increasing my pitiable slang vocabulary). I think some of the concern about secrecy and taboos is when they occur even within the family, as opposed to gaining support from within the family.
My best guess is that the teasing will continue but the subject matter evolve with the evolution of your relationship–but then I’ve never been a Saudi male, only talked to some and their analogues in other cultures!
I think the privacy thing here is carried to an unhealthy extreme. Sharing our problems with others is a natural step and lots of good can come from it. Just getting out those feelings can be therapuetic, and lending an ear shows friendship and caring. Bonding happens with the person you share it with and they could offer help that you otherwise wouldn’t have known about or gotten. I have always seen others as being sympathetic and helpful instead of wanting to put an evil curse on me, but then I guess I see the glass as half-full too.
Lynn we also heard about these kind of stories ” never saw her face” and frankly it amazed me because It is obvious that this is non-Islamic act.
Aafke- Yes, there are forward thinking Saudis in jail as well as forward thinking Saudis who are free.
The main difference between the two is the free ones continue to eat and dish out the same old shit everyday. The locked up ones have challenged the shitty status quo; thus, they refuse to eat the same shit everyday.
I don’t think it can anymore scholarly than that!
Speaking from experience about the supreme effort people go to keeping secrets…pedophiles and other sexual predators are never spoken about. If someone in the family has been accused or even convicted…you would never know it as its the ultimate in shame…along with any children they may have abused.
I find it odd because that person is now a KNOWN danger to soceity….and yet the family doesnt want the word to get out.
On the other hand…girls and women that have been sexually abused are bandied about like theres no tomorrow…their reputations are torn apart and rung up the flag phole for all to see…but the ones that abused them…those we never hear about.
Concerning mental illness….my SIL (ex) has a daughter with mental retardation…for many years after I married and entered the family household…I thought her daughter was actually her sister…as that is what I was told by her (SIL). Nobody told me different. Turns out she tells everyone who happens to discover her daughter has a mental illness (she rarely gets out of the house) that she is in fact her younger sister…and the whole family supported this lie in front of me…and others.
Note: The village/ tribal people are caged up when it comes to speaking to the public particularly the outside media.
The free forward thinking Saudis are those who have resigned to eat and dish out the same shit and have been assigned to keep those damn people in their cages until further notice.
“Milkas” I think that means engagements are usually kept low key. Good news is to be shared with only few people…there is a hadith used to support this notion.
So many aspects of society are controlled by such aspects. If a friend owns a business, it is possible you might not even know that friend has that business. The reason for such privacy is primarily her fear that you might get jealous or have ill feelings towards her and bring harm upon her. A secondary reason is you may want something from her. It is a culture of mistrust!
There are numerous examples of such mistrust of others opposed to trying to push the notion it is reallly a culture of privacy. I respect a person’s right to privacy, but I am disgusted by the amount of distrust there exists amongst Saudi families.
It would take someone who was embedded in the society to know the difference between a culture of mistrust and one of extreme privacy. Saudi is indeed the former. Misinformation is spread and that leads to an Ignorant society or the one that Aafke so accurately describes
Chiara- My claws have been bloodied before going for that area and I swear to God that is the damn truth.
Sparky–I have no doubt. Lasers are bloodless surgical instruments!
Mohamed S- depends on the person. My father had a lump on his right testicle he told everyone he spoke to. Even told a female friend of mine as she was passing by him at thanks giving dinner “hey guess what they found a lump on my right testicle”
My mother who had colon cancer was very open about her condition. She didn’t hide her bald head, sought out others going through the same thing, recounted her ‘discovery’ to every person she knew, spoke of her drs. what treatment she was getting. And even sought out support groups. Her openess was very much part of her being able to cope and staying healthy and strong even on those terrrible days.
My son has DS I’ll tell anyone that listens. I’ll seek out others like me, like him, in order to get support, to network, to find out information. I find it is really necessary in this part of the world because people attach a shame to a disability or illness. So it isn’t just for me, for my son, but for others as well that I find I need to be vocal. other people need to hear hey it ain’t all that bad, I did nothing to cause this and he isn’t a curse or shame.
It is all the things that go with the secrets and silence that matter. Some may not be comfortable talking to others and seek out only the support of their family. But their family may seek the support of others outside the family for it is how they cope. Just a natural healthy aspect to not have to go it alone and not feel so bad about it all. And if it brings help, aid or comfort to another than that is even better.
Chiara- The lasers would be cultivating energy with laser eyes to inflict my evil on it.
Since I realize that I have no real magical powers or laser eyes (I like to think I do at times) I opted for the strength of my muscles, tissues and nails which bring forth blood. Umm Delicious
Nninga- I have to wonder the appropriateness of place and time in privacy. I can say there have been quite a few of those odd moments when full disclosure came at an awkward time and place and it wasn’t me disclosing.
I must ask what was the point in saying what he said to your friend at dinner concerning a lump on his testicle? I would be totally uncomfortable and would be at a loss as to what to reply. Hope you get it off soon or hope you get better, sorry to hear that, tell me more. GOod BYE
I hope your father is fine and all.
I wish I knew what was the majority on the ruling of engagements… most whom I know keep it very private and close and of course, the engaged couple are prohibited from contact to include phone calls and email.
sparky- old men.. I dare not try to explain the male mind at all.
I’ve had old men tell me strange things.. one guy where i worked used to come and sing christian hymms to me all the time. Stood there and sang.. and I’m a covering muslim. what I’m to do? tell him to shut up?? Not good customer service.
some people feel alright just letting it all out there.. others don’t. I certaintly don’t expect everyone to go around talking of their testicles.. but it was in direct response to a comment. Said with a light heart and hopefully taken as such
Nzingha–thank you for expanding your perspective. All of your examples are American though (unless I am mistaken), and may be too much for Saudi culture–except that I agree with the need to reach out about DS on behalf of yourself, Umar, and others.
This is especially necessary to dispel feelings of shame or guilt and misconceptions about etiology–whether evil eye, inheritance, or contagion–and about potential. Going it alone with such a diagnosis would be foolish or worse, and even supportive family are unlikely to share the experience, so that the need for understanding and knowledge that only another mother of a DS child can give forces one outside the family, and the need for special care and parenting skills makes professional resources all the more necessary and valuable.
Sparky–in that case I must defer/refer to Aafke
American Bedu–while I can’t provide help in the majority ruling (being a non-candidate for voting) some how the fact that “the engaged couple are prohibited from contact to include phone calls and email” was striking. Perhaps because I’ve only known situations where the engaged couple were always chaperoned (sometimes by a distracted small child) and didn’t think of phone calls and email. What would be the normal level of restriction of contact?
In the engagements which i reference the engagement/proposal was of course arranged by the family. The prospective couple were allowed to meet once under chaperoned circumstances (and with her appropriately covered) to have a few minutes to talk and see if they approved of one another. This contact lasted for less than 15 minutes. The engagement was agreed upon and now they wait until their marriage. Due to the traditional and conservative nature of the families the couple are prohibited from further contact. For those of us from western cultures and maybe from some eastern cultures, it is difficult to imagine that one can choose their lifemate, partner, husband, lover within a one-time 15 minute meeting but at least in what I know, that can and does happen.
American Bedu–thank you for your answer.
The only arranged marriages I am personally aware of are Moroccan. The most traditional of those that I have encountered involved matchmaking mothers and sisters with photos, an initial family-chaperoned meeting, then a formal engagement offer with the men confirming, and then a longer period of what we would call chaperoned dating, whether multiple family members were present, or the couple took long walks on the beach (in bathing suits) during a family beach party, with an accompanying 8 year old boy more interested in sand crabs. I’m not sure what happened about phone calls and emails, but they had plenty of time (months) to get to know each other, and more than a “glimpse of stocking” before the marriage was finalized and the celebration held.
Quite a cultural difference in “arranged”. Other arranged couples I know had less time but similar opportunity, and I would say arranged marriages are definitely in a minority. Matchmaking, group dating, and secret dating (from family) or open dating are more common.
Returning to Saudi secrecy, I think people immigrating from cultures with high levels of secrecy have a harder time when away from close family and friends if there are challenges they need support with. Fortunately most seem to build friendships, and many turn to formal supports.
@Nzingha: I don’t mind people telling others of their medical conditions (though your father would freak me out 0_o no offense
) but what I believe is that calling Saudis backward for choosing not to reveal their medical ailment to everybody seems strange to me.
A good example is my aunt. She’s a breast cancer survivor but the only ones who knew were her close family. All except her mother (my grandmother). She pretended to be fine all during Chemotherapy and wore a wig. The reason she didn’t tell anyone else was that she feared my grandmother would know and she didn’t want her to worry.
As for disabled people, I don’t think that’s as much a problem in Saudi Arabia as people would lead you to believe. I’ve met many disabled people in Saudi Arabia during my life. One who is a younger brother of a good friend. They don’t hide him even though he has Down Syndrome and he goes everywhere with him.
Another example is that the Saudi national soccer team for the mentally disabled won the World Cup for disabled teams and it was everywhere in the press!
Another example is regular football league. Take a look at this picture from King Fahad International Stadium:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ml3b_elmalik_fahad.jpg
Notice how far the crowd are sitting from the pitch (ruins the atmosphere if you ask me). Now, look where these disabled children get to sit during these matches:
http://alnemr.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22167&d=1227410425
http://www.alriyadh.com/2004/12/29/img/291304.jpg
That’s right, nearly every saudi league match let’s disabled children sit right near the substitutes bench and their football idols completely free of charge. It’s not unusual for a goalscorer to celebrate a goal by hugging or kissing one of these children.
Mohamed, thanks for your comment and the insights.
Wow, for everyone who posted their experience with this secrecy – my heart goes out to you! May you be a light to everyone else struggling with the same issues.
Mohammed S, no, not everyone wants to go on Oprah the minute they are diagnosed with some disease, but nor should they feel too ashamed to be truthful about it with friends and family and even neighbors.
Mohamed S–thank you for your insights and counterbalancing perspective. Your aunt is an especially good example of combining getting family support with sufficient discretion to prevent distress in others (that would rebound on oneself). Your examples and photos regarding the disabled are excellent and hopeful.
Arranged marriages are everywhere from an indian perspective it’s slightly different, again this is as seen by me and practiced by my family. most of mu cousins who have had arranged amrriages, usually the horoscopes are matched and when all family checks are done the boy’s family come sto meet the girl, boys get rejected here and so do girls.. but once they kind of approve the girl and boy get to meet alone ( outside/cafe/etc.,) for about and hr or so 2 to 3 times , talk on the ph , chat etc., however long you want and then are expected to answer weather they would like ot get married. a few of my cousins have simultaneously met multiple men and spoken to them.. once the couple picks, parents talk and a formal engagement is done, from then on till marriage they have the licence to date
. wehn i look @ this objectively it’s not so different in my situation except for the first part, i was not introducted to my dh by my parents , but we met @ a business forum, kept mtg on and off , got confortable to the point of having coffe together and then proceded from there on. so i kind of look @ aranged marriages in india as a “blind date” set up by family.. now that i’m older i don’t think it’s a bad idea to have the family vetoed, education/interests matched and then the couple introduced. although nowadays with so many women int he work force, they meet their own men …this arranged marriage thing was setup mainly inthe olden days when women finished college and sat @ home , where were they supposed to find good men 
.. The saudi policy of strick no contact seems extreame even after the engagement , definetly need to loosen up, that’s the best phase in your life 
well lwts see if my baby doesn’t find anyone by 23-24yrs, i’m all for introducing her to my friends sons … ha ha,
So how does this privacy/secrecy culture mix with the new facebook/myspace generation? Is it not popular in SA? It seems that here in the States everyone under 30 has learned to live their lives on the internet. It gets worse if you are a teenager.
Mohamed S. — thank you.
Mohamed S- no worries my father freaks me out too
I don’t believe I’m wrong about the Saudi approach to disabilities, I’m knee deep in it. Try finding services try finding education, try finding early intervention, try talking to people on what they believe is the cause of disabilties, what they assume a person can or can’t do w/ a disability or how they interact in the real world (not a selective few on a team to make everyone feel good ), what type of jobs they have, how they intergrate in society, how they are viewed by others, and their quality of life. This is what makes the difference and this is where silence is a problem.
I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve seen an individual with DS in Saudi. All of whom were following behind a member of their family or followed with a maid/nanny (and we are talking grown individuals not just children). While my heart is softened by the fact that family takes care of their family and it isn’t a burden or something abnormal (a concept I would loved to be passed on in the US) I have to wonder if that is it? Is that all their life is going to be? Following behind the steps of others? Never being given the chance to take steps out on their own?
Saudi has a very long way to go when it comes to disabilties. Mental, physical or otherwise and me and the family will be part of that process.
I don’t think Saudis are bakwards and I do think hiding illnesses from certain people is a family decision made w/ the best intentions. It all depends on the situation. However there are common associations with illnesses and disabilities that are at issue. And keeping everything so hushed up hurts in the long run.
Check out the statistics on breast cancer in Saudi, it is quite shocking. The government is taking great strides to educate women. However they recently cut back w/ the older population for they found their strides to get those women to open up and speak about these issues and educate them on it was too difficult. They are now moving to the young girls still in school, teaching about the disease, how to do self exams, how to not be ashamed and fear for their marriage if they loose a breast.
But it is the stigma that is culturally associated w/ this cancer which that is causing harm. Keeping things hushed, not talking about it, has killed far to many women. And this can be said about other illnesses and disabilties as well.
chiara- My mother was German, quite tight lipped. Wih certain things they are the same in respect to Saudi culture as to what they discuss and disclose to others. My mother was always that way and changed only after she became ill and understood it was part of her well being that she needed to speak about it.
Also do note at the for front of activism on these issues, illnees, cancer, disabilities ect the voices you’ll hear in saudi are SAUDIS. I think that is an important point. Many saudis in the medical field or parent/sibling advocates see the silence and cultural perceptions as wrong and hurtful to their society. They are the ones on the front lines working for change, educating, speaking out. It is a difficult process but very much needed.
Surprised, given the strong focus on not drawing attention to one’s wife in Saudi and other countries that pregnancies (usually the result of coition) are mentioned at all, never mind after three months.
@Nzingha:
I admit that I lack information on stats for breast cancer in Saudi Arabia. Can you provide links? Thank you in advance.
Coolred–? why the
Nzingha–you certainly have the experiential knowledge and balanced view to assess the Saudi strengths and challenges in regards to the disabled. Often health care personnel, especially those from the country itself, are in the forefront along with families in destigmatizing, and creating services.
Kudos to your German mother. My friend’s 80- year-old German mother wouldn’t see anyone for her ?grief reaction/?depression after her husband died, even to relieve her family’s anxiety about her health. This left her radiologist daughter and I trying to diagnose and treat her from the distinct disadvantage of no direct professional assessment.
Breast cancer can be successfully treated for women in their 80′s, IF they get themselves to a Dr. Sometimes a big part of the solution is having female specialists, and nagging children/grandchildren. Since breast cancer usually begins approximately 30 yrs before it is discovered educating young and old is important, though challenging.
Anon–celebration of family, blood lines, successful consummation of marriage, etc. but I take your point.
What about the obsessioin with hymens and showing off bloody sheets? A barbaric practise I have been told by msulim women in the middel east still exists?
And women being murdered for failing to bleed? Which is by no means the norm for a virgin, but still? Where is all the privacy and secrecy and decorum if it’s about women’s reputations?
It all seems very dodgy to me.
Achelois had an excellent post where you can read that in the case of the ”Holy Hymen” secrecy and discretion are thrown out of the window…
http://achelois.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/the-saga-of-the-lost-piece-of-skin/
Aafke–ritualistic sharing of culturally important information for bloodlines, family and social structure, and inheritance is part of preserving secrecy. In other words, the information can only be, and is released in specific ritualized ways to specific people. Showing the bloody sheet is a protection of and respect for the woman’s (and her family’s) reputation as a virgin, and the man’s (and family’s) reputation as potent (able to get and maintain an erection), and heterosexual. About 10 months hence fertility is demonstrated, and the family and social structures preserved.
Needless to say I have problems with hymen rupture as proof of virginity because of the very real medical reasons for which a virgin may not have a hymen, or may have one that doesn’t bleed on penetration; and the fact that studies show doctors, even specialist forensic ones who do these checks on government orders, are very poor at being able to identify an intact hymen, especially in adolscents (the most likely age of women in non-virgin killing cultures) .
Edit: especially in adolescents (the most likely age of brides in non-virgin killing cultures) .
The Greek Orthodox do a dance with the bloodied sheet of the wedding night as well. I couldn’t believe it when my friend told me about that.
Well in my case I can say that the two diseases that afflict my family on my mom’s side are Alzheimer’s and Multiple Myeloma- ones for which there are no cures, no hopes of remissions, and the ones that need the most familial support…yet I have overheard how some of my husband’s family basically hold their collective breaths around me-like if I were a ticking time bomb; especially now with both “items” being hot on my familial plate…
My husband whose got his heart and sould in the right place says to me- let’s do now, live now, be now- we don’t know about tomorrow-
How I wish more Arabs would just live- and cease their supersticious ways and at times (more for some,less- for others more) their cold ways of dealing with the Human Factor…
Smile, laugh, enjoy the sunshine- and have those memories for when the days are darker, rainy, and gloomy…they might just learn why Allah put us on this earth…
My mother is the sort that will tell everyone from her friends and family to the post office clerk, the grocery store lady that shares a line with her to the caller who meant to get someone else…she has no secrets when it comes to medical conditions…sigh!
Mohamed S- here is a link that states 3 main things 1. breast cancer hits saudi women at a younger age 2. diagnosis is at a latter stage as well 3. 64% of the patients studied died
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10456657
this I should note is not uncommon within the GCC as you can see there are major breast cancer awareness campaigns going on. Saudi started about 10 years ago w/ cooperation from the US. here is a little on that
http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2006/June/20060623141131hmnietsua0.9000055.html
This is about awareness campaigns targeting school girls now http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=116860&d=1&m=12&y=2008 there is some info on Dr. Samia who is really public about breast cancer as she is a survivor
and in Arab News I found Carol
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=111503&d=5&m=7&y=2008
and I thought I’d mention this as I was very happy to see this in Arab News not that long ago, It is about taking an approach to treating an entire patient, the emtional aspect as well. http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=119538&d=24&m=2&y=2009
that should get you started
Coolred- I think my dad should talk to your mom lol I’m sure they would have a grand time discussing medical conditions and my father has a rather long list.
thats so different from Egypt. Here the neighbors know what you have done and who you have done it with before you ever even do anything.
And when there is nothing to talk about they MAKE SHIT UP! My husband’s aunts told my mother in law that I had gotten some sort of high paying job (God I wish) and we had bought a super nice car (I am still hoofing it everyday) and were going to buy a flat.
As if they’d know this stuff before she did.
Yep, definitely no privacy in Egypt. at.all.
Nzingha – thanks for providing the links! And I also encourage anyone to also search this blog on cancer since I’ve written multiple posts on the subject as well.
Yes; the culture of privacy is quite different…in addition to keeping some aspects private it is also not uncommon (as an earlier comment pointed out) to simply ignore a condition, ailment or illness. Kind of like if it is ignored and not acknowledged it does not exist.
AmericanBedu, no offense is intended; the family you mentioned knows nothing about Islamic practices. It’s mandatory in Islam that the man prier to engagement when visiting the family to see the girl with no veil (her hair should be uncovered). Also, it’s the woman right to request to see the man again without “ghotra” so to see his hair (of course if she wants) Many years ago Saudi clerics issued a “fatwa” that states “since almost all Saudi men always cover their hair by “wearing ghotra or shomagh”, they should disclose to the girl and her family when the person is having any hair problems (if he is bald as an example)
Some of my family live in Riyadh, and I never heard from them that girls cover during “al shoufa”
I remember as an example 12 years ago (perhaps bit more ) I was in Riyadh when a guy came with his mum to see one of my cousin. She was sitting with them with a jeans and a shirt. As a kid 
I found it strange, so I asked my aunt why yesterday … was covering her hair and now she is not covering it 
. my Aunt told me the guy wants to get married, and he should see how she looks like.
P.S. concerning the “ghotra” thing
one of my cousins’ relative asked the guy to remove his ghotra (so it happened indeed 
) I thought to share 
Pease to all
I guess it shows Khalid how some families who are more conservative will uphold their conservative culture nature and I am guessing here..do not believe it is important or necessary for the man or woman to see each other prior to marriage without a headcover? I’m glad to hear this is just more of a conservative culture practice.
Yeah as for the hymen and the bloody sheets Aafke mentioned, this is something from the past; is no longer practiced. It wasn’t practiced in the Middle East though. It used to be practiced in North Africa, and from what I heard from people there, this practice is no longer take place. Frankly speaking, the first time I heard about the bloody sheets thing was about 3 years ago. I was utterly disgusted and I have no words to explain my shock when I heard it.
I wonder, do people wait outside till the couple come out from their chamber
and show them the sheet, or do they keep a sheet that has some blood till people visit them and show them 
……….. Stupid …. (sorry, I just cannot digest it). Anyway, this is never practiced in KSA since the topic is related to Saudis.
P.S. Can the couple put strawberry juice on the sheet
and show it directly to the people waiting outside 
so they can get lost 
Carol- I thought it was standard that the girl uncovers for the guy. From what I get is this.. dude makes it known he wants to marry a woman. The girls in the family start to talk, a date will be set for the man to come with his female head like his mom, grandmother and sisters. Before this generally word is given if the girl he likes is even interested or not. She than uncovers, although she won’t show all her goods ie. generally conservative dress. She too can check him out, ask what she wants of him and at that time he makes his intentions to marry her known. She answers than or not.
I as a covering convert I was a bit surprised as we don’t do this in our typical courtship set ups in the states.
Chiara, you can be all ”anthropoligical” and aloof about this, fact is, it’s disgusting and demeaning superstition to be so extraordinarily obsessed with hymens.
Khalid, but it does still happen as per Achelois’ students reports, at least in the UAE. These girls don’t dare to participate in any sports or any physical activity for fear of damaging the ”Holy Hymen”.
Which state is not kept private but will be displayed to the public.
Even if some women don’t have any hymens at all. But their ”value” is only related to their Hymen. Which is why Coolred has sometimes referred to women as being seen as ”Walking Hymens”. Which need to be covered.
One girl related how her cousins engagement was broken off because she had a very bad accident, broke her pelvis, and had to undergo several serious operations, and her fiancé was convinced it was all a scam to cover up for her not being a virgin
Oh, and to fake it: in England they used to press a cherry. Seems to leave very convincing stain, hence the English expression ”Popping the cherry”
Oh, and for those in a predicament, hymengally speaking, the Japanese (ofcourse) have invented the ”Artificial virginal Hymen” Which in some cultures all women should use even if they are virgins, because only a percentage of women bleed the first time.
http://guanabee.com/2008/12/artificial-hymen-lets-you-bleed-be-awkward-like-a-virgin
Hee, Chiara, do hymens (if existant to begin with) actually ”break” with heavy excercises sports, bad falls, etc?
And who would know in the first place I mean how ould anybody find out? It could only be ascertained by testing I suppose… Empirical research… So find a couple of girls, see if they are virgins (a dodgy and unsecure ”science” in the first place)
And the you’d have them do heavy excercises, drop them of horses, and from roofs, and then re-examine them for ”hymen-breakage” (a dodgy and unsecure ”science” in the first place)
I think I answered myself here, nobody can possibly know, and all Hymen fairytales are just that: fairytales.
Nzingha, in the cases I am aware of, the girl was modestly dressed but not uncovered in that she did wear a hijab. So at least her face was showing but no hair.
Molly…I think your missing the point…we may CHOOSE to keep our secrets secret…that doesnt mean others that find out about those secrets will feel the same way…and will find some sort of personal satisfaction in spreading what theyve heard….especially if its got nothing to do with them.
Basically, it’s a good idea to proceed with the concept of everything you do or say or write, someone, somewhere, somehow will know or find out about it and will talk about you.
Own it.
But that’s also not saying people won’t, like Molly said, be bored, have too much time on their hands and talk trash.
They like to help you “build character”
Coolred, THAT is probably precisely why they keep things so secretive. If people were nice or supportive others probably wouldn’t have a problem telling things to them. Maybe if these women were allowed to have lives that satisfied them- i.e. jobs or hobbies and/or were busy taking care of their homes and their families they wouldn’t have time to sit around and spread gossip about people.
I don’t understand why people engage in nasty gossip when they MUST know that when they aren’t around they are the ones being talked about. I have cut ties with people that I have known like that as I didn’t want to be a party to it and I couldn’t be friends with people that MUST be talking about ME like that when I was not around.
It’s true … you are being talked about … lol
Free PR … no billing cycle to worry about.
and may I point out that it is unislamic to intentionally gossip or say things that could cause harm.
I have read and researched alot on this topic for professional reasons, and it is dismayingly prevalent in certain countries with honour killings a risk for the lack of a hymen or the lie about it. This is particularly worrisome as the shape of the hymen, vascularity, and elasticity of the hymen varies from one woman to the next, meaning a woman with an intact hymen may not tear or bleed on the wedding night, and the doctor charged with providing the virginity certificate either before (common in Turkey and Egypt) or after the wedding night may not be able to recognize an intact hymen–shame, divorce and worse for a true virgin.
Also one article interviewed men about how important it was, with some saying they tempted their girlfriends to see if they would remain pure.
There is an excellent slide show overview of the medical and social aspects of the hymen and hymen repair by an Egyptian obgyn at:
http://www.obgyn.net/english/pubs/features/presentations/hennawy13/hymenorrhaphy.ppt
Needless to say hymenorraphy is illegal in many Islamic countries, including Egypt.
One Canadian surgeon does them and claims that the seduced and jilted women he treats are suicidal at the prospect of never marrying or being found out.
A Moroccan obgyn told me a number of years ago that they were done commonly for women (probably middle class and up) who had had sex before marriage in order to be marriageable. A Moroccan woman confirmed this more recently.
Although the hymen can be torn in an accident it is actually rare, unless there is penetration or severe trauma, and is a common excuse given to doctors in certain countries to enable them to do the “repair” which is often more of a construction than a repair–complete with gel capsule of “blood”.
Re: the stained underpants shown from the bedroom window this was a normal practice in 19th century Canada among British colonials. It is also still relatively common in certain cultures (or showing the stained underpants to a trusted family member). Needless to say many a chicken has given its life for the reputation of the couple.
Might I remind in return …as I rub my two index fingers together, same-same.
Might I remind in return …as I rub my two index fingers together, same-same.
‘It’s true … you are being talked about … lol’
Yes, but the thing is. I don’t care, I don’t do anything that I would be ashamed of and anyone that I care about knows me and would know a lie when they heard it and even if I DID do something to be ashamed of I am not going to be shunned or killed in the name of honor rather I would be shown love and support by the ones that I care about.
‘and may I point out that it is unislamic to intentionally gossip or say things that could cause harm’
LOL just one more thing that is UNislamic that is broadly practiced in the ‘Islamic World’. That includes the “Islamic World’ here in the United States.
Sorry–premature submission–The above post at 7:10pm was a copy and paste job from my response to Achelois’ excellent post on the topic of hymens. I was referring to the “bloody underpants show” ritual and surgeries for hymen repair.
I wanted to precede it here with the following comments.
Aafke–what is the emoticon for “crying broken heartedly”, as in Aafke doesn’t read and retain in detail all my comments so I am “crying broken heartedly” ?
Regarding your earlier comment above, while not being intentionally aloof, I hope I was at least MEDICALLY anthropological.
Some short answers–
Yes hymens exist, but are different shapes, thickness, completeness and may not break on the wedding night since they are too incomplete, or too elastic, or lack enough blood vessels (or may rarely be impenetrable–a partially imperforate hymen).
They can break during sporting activity but it is rare, although it makes a good excuse (according to the doctors who hear the request) for a request for hymen reconstruction surgery.
Studies have been done showing even specialist doctors eg. those in Egypt and Turkey who provide the pre-wedding virginity certificate, or the post-wedding examination of the supposed non-virgin for legal purposes, have a great deal of difficulty in accurately visualizing the hymen, especially the hymen in an adolescent, which is harder to see than that of an adult.
Lest we be too ethnocentric let us all remember that then Lady Diana had a pre-marital virginity and fertility exam the results of which were made public, and featured in the newspapers in early 1982.
Most virgins do experience pain and some bleeding on first penetration but many don’t (depends on the medical properites of their hymen).
Aafke’s recommended and then retracted experimental design has much to recommend it but unfortunately wouldn’t make it past the scientific review board as she didn’t specify “randomized double blind study with a control group” and as she pointed out the ethics are somewhat dicey. However I have friends on ethics review boards in the Netherlands so…
Hymen “repairs”, actually a re-construction, are sought by women who have either voluntarily or involuntarily had pre-marital sex, or been jilted by a lover, to preserve their marriage possibilities, and personal, and family honour.
The bloodied underpants show, has been practiced in a “wave it out from the bridal chamber window to the gathered villagers waiting below” way, but is more likely shown to a trusted female relative, who then shares the news. It is rarer but still done in certain places in the world in a more discreet way. I know of a specialist woman physician in Morocco who had public confirmation of her virginity on her wedding night in the late 1970′s.
As well as problems with the woman’s hymen, there can be problems with the man’s “performance anxiety” and resultant impotence (failure to obtain and maintain an erection), or 2 virgins suffering a lack of anatomical knowledge.
Rather than fruit juice, usually animal blood has been used for deception, either of the public, the trusted relative, or the man in the couple.
Current hymen reconstructions either are done so as to cause bleeding on penetration, or include a gel capsule.
All of which makes me wonder–would a man rather marry an honest non-virgin, or a deceptive “virgin”, if the news could be kept only between the 2 of them?
Any men still reading and willing to respond?
Nzingha–thanks for your comments on Breast CA and references. I look forward to reading the linked articles.
Khalid–thanks for sharing your perspective and knowledge. I hope I have answered your questions above.
Molly–oh yes, where there is a dearth of legitimate information or insufficient gossip, enquiring minds will make things up–usually far worse than the truth, which is why the best liars, or the most discreet truthtellers volunteer a plausible truth.
Again, you like Chiara and Carol, are taking that any talk about you would be detrimental or harmful. All I wrote was, ‘It’s true … you are being talked about … lol’
Why am I not surprised you took it to a place that was extreme.
But where you took it, is where you took it and it demonstrates where you think I’m coming from in my comments, that you think I’m trying to put you down. Or is that your goal and that’s why you think I’m doing the same? I’m not cut from that cloth …
So where’s all this coming from? Gossip? Let’s get this mess out in the open. If you have something to say, say it. Believe me, I’ve heard all sorts of things, so it’s doubtful anything you have to say is going to be any different.
This comment about gossip being unIslamic, put in there backbiting too… and it’s true, but I didn’t hear these “reminders” when people here were commenting quite harshly … so if the reminders are selective in recall, maybe those reminding etc need to work on that.
It’s rather going back to the comment about the money issue in the second wife column … throwing it out there, hoping the prospective second wife will feel ashamed and concede, when the person throwing it didn’t feel Islamic shame in saying, because they would know Allah provides.
Is meaningful dialogue going to be thrown out the window for the sake of one-ups-manship – or would that be one-ups-womanship?
I think the men have run away from the angry women.
Susan….I’d have to go back through the comments but I was not referring to your comment when I mentioned about gossip and backbiting as unislamic…I think it was to mariam’s or marahm’s but do not recall and too tired to go back through and look!
Inal–thank you for your comment and sharing your experience in relation to multiple myeloma and Alzheimer’s. These two disorders, indeed, require maximal social and professional support, and a family’s rejection or suspicion is often related to misinformation about the illness, or fear of being asked to give more support than they can/want to provide. Fortunately one usually has other friends, relatives, a spouse, and patient advocacy groups for support where certain family members are unsupportive.
Susan at 8:07pm–in reference to myself, please don’t presuppose my thoughts, emotions, reactions, or motivations; and if you are concerned about a comment I have made please address it directly and clearly so any confusion may be easily remedied.
Susan at 8:11pm–I trust the regular male commentors here are courageous, insightful, and articulate, and assume many male blurkers are the same, so I hope they do comment, even if they perceive female anger anywhere by anyone (since I have none here, I can only speculate).
‘Why am I not surprised you took it to a place that was extreme’
LOL I will assume that that comment was directed at myself? LOL Good one!
‘This comment about gossip being unIslamic, put in there backbiting too’
I thought that they were one and the same. I don’t think of the speading of good news that is truthful and told with good intentions (not for bragging) as ‘gossip’ or ‘backbiting’ and I would never be upset that someone told someone else about something wonderful that happened in my life or my family.
I have no idea what ya’all are talking about.
You are blessed
Chiara, @ 9:35pm — I would ask the same of you. When you grant, it will in turn be reciprocated.
In speculation, is there therefore presumption?
Susan at 12:15–Abslama, wa lah.
[...] beginning to think the Saudis are onto something with their culture of privacy….in which they throw people in jail for this kind of [...]