Not all Saudi men are cads. In fact the majority are decent, charming, sincere and loving individuals just to name a few applicable adjectives. But some on the other hand should wear a permanently affixed warning sign identifying him as a professional heartbreaker!
Saudi men can undoubtedly be among the most charming in the world. A woman being courted by a Saudi man will feel that she is the only woman in the world and treated like a Princess. As a result, romantic relationships between a non-Saudi woman (usually a westerner) and a Saudi man can evolve quickly with much passion and fireworks. Saudi men seem to be born with the ability to charm and conjule. Some may make promises that they realize they have no intention of keeping but they justify this by saying to themselves “if it makes her feel better to hear such words then no harm is done.” When I learn of situations where a woman has been so terribly let down by a Saudi man it saddens me. There are too many stories out there about the western woman who basically has been “hoodwinked” by the charm and charisma of a Saudi man who in fact did not have serious intentions to the woman. I call these men the Romantic Liars.
What is a Romantic Liar? There are in fact articles written about these men with warning signs. I’ve included some clues that a woman should be watchful and alert to towards determining if something just might be amiss in her relationship with a Saudi man:
First, romantic liars are very good at what I call information control. So that’s the first sign — if your partner knows far more about you than you know about him, there’s a chance there’s a hidden agenda in play.
Another sign is the presence of a lot of “impression management” — you have an idea of what your partner is like, but you’ve never really had any of the information verified.
A third sign — and this seems to apply in so many cases — deceptive relationships usually take off like a rocket … like love at first sight, if you know what I mean. nuclear powered…..
Another sign is all the “tending and narrowing” that takes place in the relationship. Romantic liars have a built-in need to keep their partners on a short leash — out of contact with the real world — out of contact with people who might know the truth. As a result, it is common for romantic liars to go to some rather extraordinary lengths to limit a victim’s contact with friends, family, co-workers, etc.
Finally, a very strong sign that you’re mixed up with a romantic liar is that your intuition will eventually signal you. That’s just the way it usually works.
It is natural for someone to want to confront a romantic liar — the desire can be overwhelming. But you couldn’t make a bigger mistake.
I would tell anyone to simply exit the relationship as soon as possible, saying as little as possible. It is safe to assume that some of these characters have some strong narcissistic tendencies. Let someone in that category know that you’ve caught them in a lie and you should take cover. Many romantic liars become very abusive when they are confronted.
And probably the first thing a woman should do is find someone she can tell her story to — a trusted friend, family member, therapist — someone who will be very high on the trust level. It has to be someone in that category because that’s what this is all about.
For more information about Romantic liars, please see this link.
Filed under: friendship, relationships, Saudi customs Tagged: | Heartbreak, Love, romance
Your list applies to all nationalities of romantic liars! Saudis really are exceptionally skilled at it, but so are the other Arabs. They really do have a different sense of what is OK to say in a relationship, in terms of making the woman feel good and loved. They don’t realize that we Western woman listen to every word they say, and believe them literally. With Arabs, the old adage, “Actions speak louder than words,” is especially applicable. I’ve learned that lesson the hard way.
I hasten to say that the only Saudi man with whom I had a relationship (sort of), was decent, honest and sincere, and wanted to marry me– really.
“Your list applies to all nationalities of romantic liars”
Very good point. I have often wondered if some of these types of men are consciously aware of what they are doing and simply don’t care or is it a matter of them just thinking that what they say/do is normal because they were raised to behave in such a manner or do they not even realize what they are doing? Regardless, they’re all a bunch of asses
The link wasn’t working for me btw.
Well said AmericanBedu. I agree with all the qualities of a romantic liar you mentioned:
1. Information control. True, this is a sine; never trust a partner who intentionally hides things from you. The man and the woman should be like an open book. If anyone of them doesn’t want to keep his/her book opened to the other , then this a clear sign to say bye-bye and never look back at that romantic liar.
2. A relationship that takes off like a rocket … like love at first sight… I don’t really believe in love at first sight although such love does exists. I believe anything that goes up so fast and so high, will fall down in a faster speed, so everyone watch out
3. Romantic liars have a built-in need to keep their partners on a short leash — out of contact with the real world — out of contact with people who might know the truth. I do believe this one is one of the clearest signs and the most dangerous one. Such person should never be trusted.
Finally, a romantic liar is a person who has no morals, and I do believe one day (sooner or later ) such liars will reap what s/he sows; we harvest what we plant and we get what we deserve…. Isn’t this true?
I understand the liar part…but where does the romantic come into this type of relationship? Using the word romantic makes it sound special in someway…nothing special about a man willing to lie to get what he wants from you…but then again…from personal experience…thats men in general.
It is true that actions speak louder than words…unfortunately, I know at least in Western society, we place so much trust in verbal communication, and not enough on our intuition and ability to read body language.
It is much harder to “lie” through body language, however so many times we override our gut feelings because the words being spoken are what we want to hear while the “real” non-verbal message being sent is something we may not be ready to come to terms with. Words are more definitive while body language has a higher degree of potential ambiguity and it is easier to convince ourselves of alternate meanings. However if someone says they love you but can’t make eye contact while they are saying it, this often speaks volumes in almost any language, no? These contradictory messages are incredibly wearing psychologically over time as the heart (the romantic) is always trying to repress what the brain (the realist) is logically trying to bring into consciousness.
Yes, we’ve, many of us, found ourselves in a puddled mangled mess amongst the ruins with these types. Only I can laugh about it now. ; >
My Omani ex was like this. Though he did tell me in the beginning that he wasn’t sure about ever getting married. And to this day, three years after our break up (I broke up w/ him because his family didn’t want him marrying a non-Muslim, non-Omani….) he DOES contact me and is still single. The list you have there does follow what I went through though he didn’t mind me spending time with family…he did keep me on a short lease (in the first few months) with an intense jealousy I never saw before in my life. Our relationship did feel like it was nuclear powered. We lasted almost 8 years and he just called me this past Christmas to wish me happy holidays. He calls I don’t….
I want to thank everyone who has voiced their views and hope to hear many more as well.
My mother used to remark with a shrug that some men have “a roving eye”. Independent of culture, nationality, etc, I think it’s a personality trait. When you add in the extra complications of a relationship between people from different cultures, you can end up with a situation that is ripe with potential for miscommunication. Success in such a relationship requires more of a willingness to learn and a greater ability to compromise than a more typical relationship between people of similar backgrounds.
I have to wonder though if the women – and usually it’s the women – who were duped were really unaware or whether they were in denial. Many times, people hear what they want to hear and believe what they want to believe.
Irish – wise comments from your mom and you.
Yes; a bi-cultural relationship takes much compromise, patience and communication.
And yes, when it comes to Western-Arab culture it is indeed very easy to be duped and many times, little means to validate what is being said. Most westerners in general will believe what people tell them and here is where they also need to learn to read non-verbal signals and body language.
Oh, one could write a large book and teach classes on this subject!
The “romantic” part of “romantic liars” means exactly that– romantic. Let’s face it, 90% of romance is fantasy, whether the couple loves each other or not!
Liars tend to be good at romance because that’s the only way they can get a woman to fall in “love” with them. Their truths do not attract, but romance does.
I don’t know whether they do it deliberately or sub-consciously, but I do know that they are in it for themselves, for any number of reasons that benefit themselves. They don’t have any idea of what the woman needs or wants. They think romance is enough. They think women are as shallow as they are, and want romance more than anything.
Some of us (women) have been through that stage– of wanting romance above all– we must admit!
Interesting topic and comments! Great photo!
The link doesn’t work for me either, but the content of the post was sufficiently thorough and intriguing, and the comments stimulating.
Some thoughts:
I don’t believe in love at first sight–lust at first sight yes, but love, no.
In my (admittedly limited experience) lusty and inappropriate men raised in a conservative culture usually deceive themselves and the woman they lust after with notions that make sex permissible–Italian Catholics and Arab Muslims have come up with amazingly similar “lines” usually involving one’s exceptionality, their undying love, intention to marry, to give children, etc. Some have amazing patience and persistence in the face of all deterrents.
I agree that confronting is unwise–especially since even a polite and persistent refusal of intimate relations can provoke the extreme opposite response, Mr Charming transforming into Mr Abusive (psychological, verbal, physical, sexual). A quiet retreat from the relationship is probably best and easiest to achieve if you have maintained or can find social support.
This topic reminds me of the correct answers on the SCUBA certification course:
Since the intensity of the romance and the crash is so great, along with realization of the deception and the failure to detect it, it is especially important to find a way to process the loss with friends, family or professionals, and if possible through expressive writing, art, or music or eventually helping others in a similar situation .
Some women find it helpful to block or screen calls from an ex even when the calls seem pleasant, since it stirs up old heartache.
What do you do when you see a shark–do not panic, pedal backwards away from the shark as quickly, gently and quietly as possible.
What do you do if it attacks–strike as hard as possible with your fist on its most vulnerable part, the nose, then pedal backwards away from the shark as quickly, gently, and quietly as possible.
What is the best prevention for a shark attack–don’t swim with sharks (but do go swimming in safe waters).
Chiara
formerly and hopefully future certified SCUBA diver
There are loads of books written filled with accounts of rogues and casanovas! Heck, I may write one myself!
I think that sometimes, even though once (sometimes twice) bitten and left in that puddled mess, we know to a degree the romantic lies our handsome darlings will say. We know at some point we’re being duped. At the end of the day, it’s “how stupid was I?”
But chya know … sometimes you just give in to it and ride the wave and crash on shore. Learning how to make a smoother landing and which wave to ride! ;>
C’est la vie, c’est l’amour – mais c’est l’amour.
La vie, la vie ça se trouve
Dans l’amour.
L’amour, l’amour ça se perd
Dans la vie.
La vie, la vie ça se donne
Par l’amour.
L’amour, l’amour ça se prend
Par envie.
La vie, la vie ça rêve
A l’amour.
L’amour, l’amour s’éveille
A la vie,
Car la vie, mais c’est l’amour.
Oui la vie, c’est l’amour
Et l’amour, c’est la vie.
Pas de vie, sans amour.
Pas d’amour, sans la vie.
Notre vie pour l’amour,
Notre amour pour la vie.
Mon amour, tu es ma vie.
La vie, la vie ça chante
Dans l’amour.
L’amour, l’amour ça crie
Dans la vie.
La vie, la vie nous donne
Tout l’amour.
L’amour, l’amour nous prend
Toute la vie.
La vie, la vie ça meurt
Pour l’amour.
L’amour, l’amour ça vit
Pour la vie.
C’est l’amour
Et c’est la vie…
Chiara! That is sooooo funny. I love the analogy! Great help … even tho I generally tend to try to make amends with the shark after striking. Behaviour recognized and working on resolution of being attracted to sharks.
I have also experienced that arabic men are very very charming. Ask me in a few month if this was a romantic lie or not!
One more thing:
Arabic men are not only “romantic liars” but also big “business liars”! Never believe all what they tell you in business… Many of them tend to be superman with huge success!
The similarites between Italian Catholic men and Arab Muslims are not accidental. Southern Italy was colonized by Arabs for many, many years, long enough for not only the genes to intermix, but the culture and mores as well! (Chiara, have you read “Cristo si è Fermato a Eboli”?)
That subject would make an entirely new post, so I’ll defer from further comments on it!
Jane, your point is well taken, that “romantic liars” can combine their skills with business. In fact, I would venture to add Impressions of Tremendous Success in Business to Bedu’s list of signs.
I do enjoy Chiara’s comparison with the shark!
And I agree…I think a ‘romantic liar’ will likely overexaggerate in the realm of business success as well.
I just want to know – where do they learn how to do all of that? Is there a “Romantic Liars School” somewhere that teaches them to be experts in this?
Susan–merci and merci for the lyrics/ poem. Now if I could only find the French/Spanish accents on the keyboard (I have some ideas but still perfecting).
Celine Dion’s bilingual D’abord C’est Quoi L’amour also says it well:
Quand tu dis Je t’aime
Moi j’entends pour la vie
Mais toi c’est une nuit
Et sans savoir ce que c’est l’amour
Tu passes ton temps
A parler d’amour
When you say I love you
What I hear is for life
But for you it’s a night
And without knowing what love is
You spend your time
Talking about love
And do write that book! or even a blook (blog book)!
Along with “swimming with sharks” the gently boiled frog comes to mind–by the time you realize how hot it is you are cooked.
Jane–I think cultural differences in expression, and what constitutes exaggeration, and lying counts in part for some of the hyperbole of even honest speakers, let alone the habitual liars, so as has been said learning to read verbal and nonverbal cues cross culturally is really important. Hope the romance is true (and not a “True Romance”
).
Marahm–excellent point, though even Northeners display this same “finesse”. I am aware of the book but haven’t read it yet. Thanks for the reminder and the inspiration!
Some of the cross cultural research I have done points to the greater importance of actions/non-verbal cues in Arab as opposed to Western culture–and seemingly for men universally.
Chiara
constantly reminding self of the importance of nonverbal cues even though trained to watch for them
PS
khalid–Thanks and great comment as usual. Plus so far the only Saudi male with the courage to venture into these waters!
Susie – it seems like many of these men acquire these traits so naturally…scary, huh?
I agree that this type of person is common to a lot of cultures. However my belief is that you’ll rarely see the same type of behavior with a woman of their own culture. I don’t know if American (or Western) women are viewed as less ‘valuable’, or they feel they just ‘get away’ with it, since there usual aren’t the gate-keepers of father, brother, etc. I’m aware of the possible abuse that comes from having a guardian or wali in control of your affairs, however this is one case in which a caring male relative could be invaluable.
Asiyasmom–all excellent points. I would only add that it is easier to lie cross-culturally since at least initially the other person doesn’t have the requisite knowledge of the cultural code to be able to decipher the message, or develop a 6th sense about the person.
I once had a student/patient tell me that it was normal in his culture for a mother to wash her able-bodied adult son’s genitals. He did so calculating that given my name, my face, and my accent I wouldn’t know any better. I did, and I also checked with the resident expert (hubby) who is of the same broad culture and has a Masters in a relevent topic–who was appalled I could even think there was any corner of the Muslim world in which that would be normal. Much cross-cultural cross-professional back pedalling, explaining, and excusing on my part!
To understand a romantic liar you must understand the following:
The key to a romantic relationship is sincerity.
Once you can fake that everything else is easy.
I think if you look at the behavior from that mind set, it all makes sense!
Good point Asiyasmom on the benefits of a guardian or wali who in this case can be a necessary gatekeeper or watcher.
I like your excellent point San Diego!
Some years back we were sitting around, late afternoon at an outdoors cafe having coffee. One of the friends of a friend of mine from one of the embassies around here told a story about the creation of man and woman have the relationships they do.
He said upon the creation of man, God – Allah had some spare parts he didn’t know what to do with was in a hurry and just mish-mashed man together.
But upon the creation of woman, Allah was feeling very artistic that day. The sky was beautiful, the temperature just right, the birds were singing … God was sitting back enjoying with a cool fruitful and a little spicy beverage. He took from the beautiful day all the beauty He could gather and created woman …
You see, continued the story-teller, this is why man goes after the woman, he needs to make sense of his mish-mash, and bring beauty into his life.
We all laughed uproariously, “where do you get this stuff?”
Thanks for sharing Susan – much enjoyed!
Susan– a wonderful story.
A much more mundane version comes from the science of embryology–the protype is female (in the absence of adequate levels of testosterone and effective testosterone receptors, the embyro even if xy will be phenotypically female); since males require additional physiological manoevres more things are likely to go wrong!
That said: Vive les hommes et les femmes!
This is the link to the book ”Romantic Deception”
http://www.amazon.com/Romantic-Deception-Six-Signs-Lying/dp/1580622100/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1232136665&sr=1-1
It is ”romantic” because these men use romance, and they use it very well. Many seem to be natural talents at this. If they weren’t so very good at it, they wouldn’t be succesfull, because contrary to the misguided common belief, their victims are not stupid!
They are liars because everything they tell you is a lie.
Romantic liars are also narcissistic and sometimes sociopaths.
They do what they do because they want to have their fun, and they don’t consider the hurt they cause. You being hurt, and in pain means nothing to them. They only care about themselves.
That’s why you should break contact, clear out, and not respond to any attempts to renew contact on his part. They typically do try to.
Women who have been abused by these people are really victims. It ìs abuse. It is a mental rape. Women who go through this have to recover and *recovery won’t be immediate” .
The pain you suffer at the ending of a romantic deception is three times worse than a normal break-up. Which can be painful enough.
For the many women interviewed for the book, their experience has made them question many of the beliefs they had previously. Belief in justice, honesty and truthfullness.
A deceptive relathionship is toxic: it poisons every aspect of life for the victim
You should give voice to your experience, but choose your audience carefully.
You very often get the response that women ”should have seen it coming” or that the women have ”themselves to blame”, or that they invited the abuse themselves. There was allready a comment in that vein on this post.
Many people prefer to think that Romantic Deception always requires a willing victim.
This behaviour is quite common, it makes people feel safe and comfortable; if you are stupid, then it will never happen to them!
Our societies are culturally programmed to blame the victims.
Who does fall victim to a Romantic Liar? Anybody! Any age, any walk of life.
A lot of women interviewed were attractive, well-educated, and succesfull.
The common denominator is Truth. Our world assumes that we are told the truth. Even the most cynical will have to give out some trust in some parts of their life.
The most endangered to fall victim to a Romantic Deciever are those who are very honest themselves, and have internalised the value of honesty.
* Show me a woman who who places a premium on honesty in a relationship, and I’ll show you a vulnerable target.*
So if you still want to put blame on the victim of a romantic deception, you should put it like this: ”Well if you are a beautiful, extremely honest, loving, caring and well brought up woman, you naturally can expect something like this”
Chiara, I love the shark-analogy, and will nick it for my future post on Romantic Deception
Please dont blame the Saudi Men …. Saudi Women are no different …
The real reason is that all of them want to enjoy love in this life .. so that they can remember that life WAS charming and love WAS there … they cant get out of the social barriers in committing love … hence they will speak all what they ever thought and dreamt they will; when they will love someone….
The only problem is that in their pursuit of giving meaning to their life … they dont really bother who they hurt. They just destroy a life and later say that …. they never “intentionally” did anything wrong to anybody .. lol.. they dont want to admit that they changed someone psycologically and filled someone with hate …… someone who only showered love and emptied himself to receive love … but got filled with resentment and hate.
I have always viewed arranged marriages as “Need Based Relationship” …
BTW I am from India and stats from my country show arranged marriages are more successful ..
I am not even a muslim … but Allah-hu-Akbar. May Allah bless all and free us from cheats.
Aafke–so many excellent points! Especially about the characteristics of the target, and the tendancy to blame the victim. In all fairness, many people who have not experienced a toxic, as opposed to a normally disappointing, relationship find it hard to believe how these people behave and how they can so mess with high-functioning people.
The analogy to rape, the role of Truth, and the lack of interest in the other’s feelings are all true. I would add that there is often active sadistic pleasure in inflicting emotional pain, and masochistic posturing to draw the loved one back in. Narcissists and borderlines (Cluster B’s remember) cannot tolerate being rejected and respond very badly in a number of ways to prove they are the right/worthy one.
These relationships are harder to get over, and involve much more self-doubt and many more challenges to one’s world view than a normal one.
Although the romance area is one of particular vulnerablity they can happen in an area of one’s life–business relationship (as has been pointed out), education (the toxic teacher/professor), career (the toxic boss), family (toxic not just unpleasant relationships with one or more family members), etc.
One of my toxic people was a psychiatry professor/boss (career relationship only) who, among other niceties, knowing that a psychotic patient had delusions of raping me, set up a good guy (him)/bad guy (me) scenario (not the worst he did but that’s another whole blogworthy story). Applying shark lessons, I was aided by a number of senior professors in retreating as gently and quietly as possible to the service of an excellent professor, and with no professional damage.
I look forward to your post on Romantic Deception, and trust you to have a little Chiara mention around sharks (I may use that analogy in my non-blog publications) !
I wasn’t commenting on Arab men alone, everywhere on the planet men target and hurt women for their own amusement. And yes, women can do the same, but there are a zillion more men engaged in this field of abuse then women.
ss007, arranged marriages are not more succesfull, unless you equate non-divorce with sucess. Typically an environment which practises arranged marriages, is also dead against divorce, and will not allow an unhappy couple to break up. Women in these kind of societies are already seen as secondrate humans, and a divorce usually means they become totally worthless, they have no choice but stick it no matter how horrible their life is.
I don’t call that succesfull.
Aafke – you explained the concept and consequences better than anyone – thank you.
Now, lets not limit this to Arabs.
Pakistani men, in my own view have similar qualities. LOL
anthrogeek10
I should not be reading posts like these right now… I agree with you 100% about Saudi men are charming individuals who really know how to lure the ladies… Me, being one of them. I’m not really dating this Saudi man, but we have been attached for since last May. He has disappointed me at times, but I always end up coming back around to him. He’s only 22 and I’m 19, so I have no clue where this relationship is going, but I really hope he doesn’t turn out to be a romantic liar : (
Listen to your intuition, and if you are on a campus remember there are student counselling services. You could come to a better understanding of the relationship and what it means to you (and him) at this stage in your lives.
All the best
Chiara–I receive no kickbacks from Student Counselling services
Guys the post is really going very well …
Just something to think on …….
Dont let a bad experience change ur attitude and openess in life … draw ur limits before committments and glide smoothly till there and after that glide only after committment … coz no rogue lover shud have the power to modify a pure and loving heart … as pure and lovable hearts are rare …. we all hold the responsibility to protect atleast ours …
love to all
ss007
Jammy,
I would just caution you to bear in mind that if he is a student and particularly on a government scholarship he is prohibited from marrying a non-Saudi….. and since he is under 35 he is also prohibited from marrying a non-Saudi. Now when I say prohibited I mean in the sense that the relationship would not be approved by the Saudi government thereby prohibiting the man and woman from living or traveling together in Saudi Arabia as husband/wife.
However as you said yourself, you do not know where the relationship is going. Just take things day by day but my personal advice is to enjoy the newfound friendship and sharing of cultures but to not let expectations arise beyond that. He is young (as are you) and so many Saudi men have fiances waiting for them back in KSA but they may likely never reveal this to an “outside foreign woman.”
ss – glad you are enjoying the post and thanks for your comments.
Lol!
)) I really liked reading this article,,,it definitely made me laugh, because indeed there are some stuff there that could be very true……
))
My only explanation could be, that many Saudi men, do not come into everyday contact with women,,,,thus even small encounters, i.e. going for a coffee,,,could make him think that the date is on!
At the same time though dating for them is a ‘romantic encounter,,,,where all fantasies can come true’, but not something that can be real. That is because their circumstances and they way they were brought up, signals that….
Lying for them at such instnaces holds little importance compared with the target,,,
As far as they are concerned:
a) the woman is most probably looking for the same romatic encounter, ie she is not serious!
b) there is no significant loss of face in such situations……as you say,,,even if they are caught they will not loose face in front of family and male friends…..which is the most important arena of their lives.
Nevertheless, they will be offended if told, and react,,,like anybody else…..but not to the same extend as they will show….
It is best that they are not told,,,,,they very much prefare it that the woman becomes elusive…..this fuels further romantic fantasies for them,,,,,,,,nevertheless if the woman is firm in their avoidance they are likely to disappear.
Such encounters are not only between saudi men and westeners,,,but amongst saudi men and women as well……the only difference here would be that a saudi woman that knows their mentality is most probably looking for a similar ‘romatic encounter’ and is not confused…..
Anyhow,,,I guess we should allow them
)) to continue to turn on their charm, by giving us a smile and opening a door,,,,,,,,but all women must be very! cautious of their intentions and hold a cool stand.
P.S. Of course not all saudi or gulf men are like that,,,but it is a trait that you can encounter more frequntly in this part of the world.
giggirls – thank you for sharing more of the saudi perspective with us!
ss007–self-protection and self-care, excellent recommendations (note to self
)
gigigirls–thank you for re-emphasizing the cultural aspect :- )
I think one of the most difficult things both for tourists AND for women meeting foreign men is how to meet the DECENT people of the host country. 99 percent of those in tourism see the foreigner in terms of the money he can spend, and many of the men trying to meet women in internet cafes, or following tourists around are the same sorts.
In my opinion, one of the best ways to meet people is by having a non-tourist job in a country (such as teaching), where you will be much more likely to meet the “right” sorts of people.
Expat 21
“Expat Abroad” in the Middle East
expat21.wordpress.com
Yeah, actually, I kind of figured that nothing could happen between us. That’s why we aren’t technically dating, nor do I plan to pursue a relationship with him, as I had hoped before. I have however enjoyed learning about his culture, and that’s why I have been reading up on KSA more, the lifestyle, ect.
However, I must say it’s frustrating to know that the government controls relationships, especially if a Saudi man was to really want to marry a westerner and he was, perhaps on a scholarship. Is there even a way for him to stay in the States? or does he get booted out when his visa expires?
@Jammy – the government controls relationships in the sense of whether to be in the Kingdom together as husband and wife. The government can not prohibit per se someone from marriage but just levy consequences. And this is only touching on the governmental regulations and pressures, it’s not even touching on the family pressures a Saudi man may receive if wishing to marry a non-Saudi. Some Saudis have indeed met and married an American and managed to stay in the States but it is something that needs to be discussed, planned and well thought out. And … always have a back up plan.
I have to agree with Carol on that,,,,,it is mainly family pressure……..that could stall things ( that is if he is honest in the first place). Nevertheless I know Saudi people that left home to get married to the one they want and they received no financial support by their families for their choices and hey the made it
) I guess that is what makes the people here always a wonderful surprise….Expect the unexpected….
)))
))) So really everyone is prone to it.
Regarding the governement rule,,,there is no prohibition,,,it is just time consuming to get the permission,,but if one really wants it, he can get it! Saudi people are ingenious in such things – hardly people that go by the book
Nevertheless on of the most common ‘romantic liar’ chat up line is their ‘desire…for marriage”’ ,,,when -after a while -the woman starts to question it ( assuming she is foreign) the usual excuse is:
it is not me, the government is stopping me!!’….and believe me a close friend, went and found!! the permission herself,,,at the point the romantic liar was in such shock that he almost disappeared in thin air
Funnily enough some westeners here have started to assume similar traits, when they plant to approach arab women,,,,they have been somehow ‘coached’ by their arabian friends that a vague proposition of marriage hanging in the air is a wonderful start for a relationship
Gigi – just wish to point out though that there are some “prohibited” institutions/organizations where marriage to a foreigner is expressly prohibited (not that exceptions do not take place):
Ministry of Interior
All Military Services
Ministry of Defense
Ministry of Foreign Affairs
as well as Saudi male under age of 35
to name a few….
As you said, many persevering couples have found their way and obtained approvals but in most cases I am sure it was not easy.
And from what I have seen and observed a whole different post could be dedicated to the tactics and outlooks of some expats who are here in KSA and their strategies to have a relationship (for the duration of time they are in KSA….)
Ah, yes, new post! I’m sure that will be a juicy one!
I know some people are trying for five years and still haven’t got permission. And besides having to deal for about a decade of beaurocratic hell, you also need a lot of money for bribes, and then, as you are both in your forties, and can finally get married, the woman will have to deal with the fact that there is only a 1% chance her new inlaws will actually like her and be nice to her.
And then after a happy marriage of 10 years chances are your husband will enlighten you to the fact that he met somebody else whom he also loves very much and that he has been married to her too, for 3 years, and has two children with her.
Jammy, I think this post is exactely what you read right now. Moreover, I strongly advice you to go to Amazon and buy the book!
I am worried about this sentence: ”I always end up coming back around to him”
Because that is a typical aspect, and a strong indication that you are in fact dealing with a ”romantic liar”. Please read the book.
Please listen to your intuintion if it gives you any hint something might be off.
One thing is sure, as he is saudi, you can be 90% sure marriage is not on the boards. And there is a chance he’s allready married anyway. Not that that would bother him; that would be solely your problem.
I’ve been through the same thing, I’ve been breaking off and going back. It’s literally mentioned in the book, relationships with ”romantic liars” are addictive, they are abusive because it’s you who will feel the pain.
And I was very clear, literally clear, about my views on relationships! I was not looking for some casual fling, I was looking for a serious, honest, committed relationship, aka marriage.
(marriage of two people, not more)
There could have been no misunderstanding ”culturally” on that part!
And he was very clear about him being serious too. Which were all blatant lies, as he was already married…
He kept ”looking forward” to us living together, hinted to babies (!) and how he missed the feminine aspect and how his house was so boring, and how happy it would make him to see me decorate it and make it a real home!
And I thought he was nearly perfect, and that we would be together soon.
I can’t write in words how deeply I am hurt, how much pain I’m having to deal with now. I do not wish this on anybody else.
Anyway, he calls himself Australian. He said his mother was from Europe and his father Arab, but he grew up in Australia and Schotland, studied in Schotland…. etc. He has his biography and photo’s on internet sites and he claims to be Australian there and names Perth as his city.
But then lying about education and professional employment, are the second aspect they lie about.
The first is their marriage-status.
Aafke– excellent addiction analogy; also the passive aggression of the other person makes it feel that if only one did xyz it would all work out, leaving the target in permanent “fixing herself” mode.
The marriage and babies lie (or self-illusion) is one a number of cultures/men think they have to use to get sexually involved.
And the I’m half-Western, Western- educated lie (or self-illusion) also is common. It often would more accurately be stated: I am full (whatever, Arab, Vietnamese to name 2 I have experienced in flagrante delicto), and educated the in West/ Western international schools, but this has had no impact whatsoever on my traditional beliefs, and ultimate practices, only made me more adept at talking the talk, while never walking the walk.
Now if sharks could walk and talk I would have my perfect analogy.
PS I have two friends who have experienced the cross-cultural “I’m single” lie:
1) a Spaniard involved with a Mexican where apparently it is culturally common to keep a “second family”
2) an American who moved to Morocco to join her paramour, and lived there for years without every meeting “the family” while he married someone else
Both eventually found found happiness elsewhere with others.
And on the intracultural front : a Canadian friend lived with a “pathological liar” while his family looked on, until she learned the full extent of his lies then was so distraught she left her job and moved home to her parents in another city to resume her life. Now happily working and married to a good guy.
PS American bedu–the “scheming” expats post would be excellent.
I have seen/ talked to/ comforted many a broken male North African heart jilted by a female American student spending a year abroad and failing to mention the fiance at home, or the family cultural taboos. Most were young and inexperienced in romantic relationships and felt very betrayed and used for their kindness, language skills, generosity, and bodies (as indeed they were).
Reading the above, I must that the few people I met had it pretty easy getting permissions,,,,from 1 month minimum to 1 year… I never thought of it being an issue, really. I also know of Saudi families that have gone to ask say for a Syrian girl – if they like her for their son- and the marriage permission was never thought about as a potential obstacle.
As mentioned, a female expat located it in 2 months……
There are nevertheless people as American Bedu mentions that are prohibited. Nevertheless there have been expections granted, as rightly mentioned or people had to change profession.
P.S. Regarding romantic liars,,,the worse I have seen was when I was abroad,,,,coincidentally a saudi man had convinced a girl he met, that they must marry or he would never talk to her again on the phone or meet her! ( That was at university) He told her that this was unacceptable.
They had to get engaged and he paid for a party for her family and relatives!
)) The girl was quite apprehensive about things heading fast too soon,,,but let that alarm slip….she was also worried to introduce him to her family, in case of a potential culture shock…..anyhow she gave in to his big plan….
Soon after the party- a week or so- he started getting cold feet,,,,and then slowly admitted that he had no serious intentions for marriage,,,but he had to do this to protect his soul……hmmmm
Gigigirls–thanks for a great example of what I was trying to convey about the self-illusion. Some sincere men from conservative cultures or raised with conservative sexual mores need to believe themselves that there will be a marriage/babies.
Aafke– What book are you referring to?
I’m sure he’s not married because I do know some what about him and his family. However, I don’t think he has serious intentions, as mentioned above. I hoped for something that I probably shouldn’t have. Plus, this my be an ouch… but I’m Muslim as well, so I know my limitations, even if he doesn’t know his, and I am not easily pressured into stuff. Think of it as a friendship crush.
But thanks for the advice and input.
AmericanBedu- I was interested in suggesting something for a post… or something I (and maybe others) would like more input on. Where can I send a msg?
Jammy–see Aafke’s comment above: This is the link to the book ”Romantic Deception”
http://www.amazon.com/Romantic-Deception-Six-Signs-Lying/dp/1580622100/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1232136665&sr=1-1
You may be sure he is not married, but what about betrothed/engaged/committed? or just intending to marry within his own culture?
Thanks for the link.
Yeah, I’m honestly not sure… that could be the case… I guess that’s something anyone takes a chance of. It wouldn’t shock me. I know they get married to cousins, and girls their mother or aunt may have chosen. Or maybe there is some girl waiting for him back home. Maybe, maybe not.
I hope I wasn’t leaning too much toward the negative, and afterall this is your relationship and your decision. I guess most of the commentors here are just concerned for you, and hoping you will follow your intuition, and knowledge, and be protective of your (very young) heart.
BTW when I met my future husband my best friend told me never to date a foreigner because she had just been abandonned by her boyfriend of 2 years (his commitment was to his home country, family and culture). Hard for me not to date a foreigner since I was in a foreign country at the time!
Hi again Guys,
This has become a very nice post now, with so many inputs from members … thanks to all … but …. it just sounds all negative..
How about starting up a post to genuinely help a Saudi female who wants to marry a non-saudi man and live in a foreign country (ofcourse she wants to work and lead an independent life).
How about making her take the right choice if she knows the man very well and knows his family well too…. but is not having the heart to put the case infront of her family … coz of the soceity?
Coz according to me, after a girl gets married in Saudi, the husbands family becomes her priority anyway … So what will matter to her after 10 yrs of getting married will be if she married the man she loved or sacrificed her life for the people who were not with her anyway …
Or in other words if she is the priority of someone..she truly loved..and he loved her more…..
Just a thought. …. !!
Thanks
ss007–I think the point of this post was to address the problem of the minority of Saudi men who are “cads” deliberately preying on foreign women.
The type of post you reference is probably partly addressed in the Interview with Tara Umm Omar and on her blog.
jammy – you can reach me at admin@americanbedu.com
ss007 – if you do a search on my blog for marriage or relationship you will indeed many posts (both positive and negative) on this very topic. And as Chiara pointed out, Tara’s blog also addresses this issue well to.
it is much easier for a Saudi to marry a woman from another GCC country than it is to marry a woman from a Western or Asian country.
Thanks for the input Chiara and ofcourse American Bedu …
sorry to all this is off topic…
Chiara, could you send me an email to khalid.blog at gmail.com … Something came to mind, and I thought to consult you
Best Regards, and my apology again
Khalid–email just sent
ps. I sent the email soon as I checked this thread–sorry for the delay.
I’m glad you wrote this article. I have been ‘hoodwinked’, as you call it, as well. All the categories fits right in and you are totally correct about your intuition kicking in but yet at the same time it’s happening, at the time I was weighing things out and definitely passion and physical attraction won over instinct.
Luckily the dating didn’t continue that long, only for a month and half, but even so, the whole part about keeping a short leash even dating someone for a short period of time was always in the back of mind. For all I know he could’ve been married since he never invited me to his home.
But as soon as I pressed him for some personal information, he got very defensive. In the end he turned out to be a coward.
Another insight that I found that because he was a practicing Muslim (that doesn’t bother me) but I became weary because I am not a Muslim and I clearly stated to him that if this is going to be an issue where he cannot be in a long-term committed relationship with a non-Muslim, then to not waste both our time. Last thing I want is to be discriminated for not being one.
I would never have thought that religion would get in the way of relationships, nowadays at least…but apparently it still does.
I digress a little bit on the religion/ relationship issue but I don’t understand the point of dating someone for years knowing that they will never , in their mind, marry a non-Muslim or whatever religion it is that they are subjected to.
Thanks for writing that article.
Welcome leche and thanks for sharing your experience. I’m glad my posting helped you understand.
Hi Leche,
Thanks for sharing your experience …
I had absolutely the same one … just that I am male and she’s a female…
It sucks ………..
I feel quite shattered because finally I knew that she was a coward and being a leo, she just showed immense confidence in being with me in Aussie.
Anyway … Life movees one… time never stops … and i guess I shouldnt also…
Take care
Thanks American Bedu for this wonderful post..
ss007
I would like to know what are the views of Saudi women and their men going out to get foreign men? Are they jealous? I’d also like to know, their thoughts on marrying Saudi men? Are the generally happy? Do they deal with the same mess that some Saudi men dish out to foreign women? Surely if they are disrespectful to a foreign woman, they would do the same to one of their women…as they have no respect for women in general. Many Saudi men are married or engaged and still go to foreign women? Why play? Is the Saudi woman not enough? I wonder what are everyone’s thoughts on this?
God forgive the men who have broken women’s hearts around the world…what goes around comes around…
I’d like to make an important correction to my last comment…I meant to say…What are the views of Saudi women about Saudi men going out to get foreign WOMEN.
Sorry about that…
There are always men that prey on women. Saudis are no different….just more difficult to resist. :
: Well, I only ever went out with one, so I’m generalizing here! ha ha But Saudi men do seem very charming.
In love, you have to throw caution to the wind and just jump in with both feet….keeping your radar on, but on low. Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
Against all odds, my Saudi husband and I have made it through over 3 decades together….
Ride the wave for as long as it lasts and enjoy it….there are no guarantees in love…. But, PLEASE, don’t add children to the mix until it’s legally sanctioned if you’re with a Saudi. Better yet, wait until you spend a few years with him and his inlaws!.
My 2 cents.
@EgyGirl – You will find all scenarios and if you do a search on this blog with the term marriage or relationship you will find many men and women who have shared their views and experiences. Some, like RoseColored, are lovely positive experiences and then there are a lot which are not so positive.
I’m not a Saudi woman but trying to put myself in her shoes to answer your question, I’d say that for some Saudi woman they will not get jealous and just shut down on thinking about what the man is doing. As long as she is treated well and her needs are met, maybe she might even prefer being left alone by him. On the other hand you can have Saudi women who certainly feel jealous and suffer intense pain at the thought of their man being a philanderer.
i,m iranian i very lik with 1 mnan saudi speek
Oh No..!
I just realized that i’m a Romantic Lier too!
[...] men can be among the most charming in the world. And to a Saudi man, many non-Saudi women outside of Saudi Arabia may seem to be for [...]
Good point. I have a saudi boyfriend well, he is sometimes liar but not intentionally liar. What does it mean? He wanted to give me everything he says but the problem is that our situation in saudi arabia is restrict him to do such things.I know his brothers, even his parents knows me although they don’t like me. But he never lied to me about his family background and his disposition in life. He was never during my trouble days… (my saudi employer was obssesssed with me) he protected me from them and we are ok. i love him and i know that he loves me…cause i feel it…
@Miss Little Nurse,
As you probably already know you are taking a chance having a Saudi boyfriend while inside of Saudi Arabia. The risks to both of you are high and if caught out at the wrong place or by the wrong person you could find yourself on a one way flight back home.
My advice is to keep learning as much as you can about Saudi culture and traditions…and be careful.
For a great book on romantic deception, read Romantic Deception: The Six Signs He’s Lying, second edition, by Dr. Sally Caldwell with Darlene E. Adams, due out in December 2010 and available through Amazon.com.
[...] aware that have been used in Saudi Arabia many times focus around marriage, illness or finance. A Saudi man may say he has been married if interested in or courting a woman but he may not reveal that there [...]
I am Saudi and I lie all the time!
I am a woman who wants to hear many lies from an arab man!
if you want to hear lies then you should email that guy that wrote that he likes to lie!
In my opinion arab men are compulsive liars and they do not know how to stop, is like in their nature! they think is funny, like a game. I met an arab guy that was a charming romantic liar, not only he was married for several years but he got kids too. He only wanted to meet girls in the states, and then go back to his family like nothing happened. For many of them women are second class citizens and american women are like objects. They have no remorse at all to justify what they do, is in their nature to lie, they see other men in their family do it, so they end up doing it. The sad part is that many of these women do not know that their husbands are like that. Especially arab men that come from the Arabian peninsula, those are the worst! they claim to be excellent muslims, but at the end they are the worst liars in the planet. So stick to the American men, is better to know a liar from here than an Arab liar.
Yeah! I lie so what.
sue me!
We only take advantage of women cuz they are stupid, they believe everything a man says! We got money and we do anything we want. We are heartless and do not care about foreign women at all.
For those that lie, what goes around. It WILL come back to you. Money is not everything, and contrary to what some men may think, not all women are stupid and not all women are after dirty money. I myself have made mistakes and have learned from them. And thank God he saved me from the man who lied to me and hurt me, so that I could meet one who not only respects and appreciates me but appreciates ALL women!
Another thing for liars out there who think they can buy what they want with money, once the money is gone , what do you have left?! You will be worthless, especially with such a rotten personality!
bassim, are you saudi?
american men lie also! so don’t get to high on your horse. a girl sets her standards, and that is how she will be treated in any culture. and saudi girls are promiscuous also. but only a small percent of them actually get to do what they desire [the ones with money and more freedom of movement] and i think you know that. it is a matter of time till the percentage will rise, because these saudi girls are bored to no end, and fighting for their rights. for some reason saudi men think saudi girls are angels…well, no, they are human, and they want to play with the boys. just watch these girls in the malls or in their cars pretending to be all shy and don’t chase me. it’s so funny!! make-up to the nines, i can go on and on., but i’m bored. i see too much of it.
I just ended a relationship with a romantic liar, a very smooth and charming Jordanian man. All of the signs were there – instant, nuclear love at first site, he knew much more about me than I knew about him, I am a person who values trust and sincerity above all else making even more vulnerable. The thing I had going for me is I am very intuitive and when things did not add up for me internally, I made the great decision of walking away even though my heart was totally and completely smitten with this man. It is the best decision I’ve made in a long time.
Of course I am Saudi, I do not care about lying to women! Did I mention I like hookers? and porn? anything I can get, as long as I lie to get what I want!
I am saudi too… And I think things are messed up, since most of saudi men are Muslim, it is forbidden to have a relationship with a woman before marriage although it is ok to marry non Muslim woman. Besides our culture hardly accepts marrying foreigners, non Saudis, Which I consider it unfair. I am talking about marriage not girl/boy friend relation. So, women if a you have a relation with a Saudi man, you should consider that… for your heart safety.
Another thing, not all Saudi men are romantic lairs some has sincere love. My cousin marred an american woman and he have two kids from her and he loves her so much… At the begging, the family did not accept her much but after a month they did and both of them are happy… so who knows personal bad or good experience does not mean that it is true all the time.
At the end, it depend on you what do you want no matters what your partner did, it is your responsibility to choose and plan before it is too late!.
God bliss you all
I wish you honest sincere loving life
Well, well,well..I hear so many comments about saudi men being romantic liars and is all TRUE!!! They lie, they sleep around, they lie to their families, to their wives, to their culture and to their religion. Many of them come to the United States to study, and while they are here, they all want to meet up with girls, have sex with them and then go back to their countries to marry saudi women that are virgins.
Most of these men are wealthy, or at least their families are. Women have no value for them, they are just sex objects. They hit and beat their women, they do not let them drive, there are barely no jobs for them, they live in a very secluded world. If they divorce the kids belong to their father, not the mother. Women are treated as second class citizens with no rights whatsoever. I met a girl once in a store, she was purchasing a lot of items, dresses, pants, blouses to take back to saudi arabia, and for what?! they can’t even wear out nothing but the freaking abaya! they cannot travel unless they are with a male companion. And on top of that their men lie! what a sad culture!