It never ceases to amaze me some of the “games” that are played out here on a regular daily basis. I apologize in advance if this may sound a little sarcastic but I will share some observations now that I’ve been here a few years. Yes, the majority of Saudi women are indeed conservative and very respectable. They do not wish to appear uncovered or unveiled before an “unsanctioned” male relative. So if they are visiting with another woman and have uncovered, they will quickly cover up putting on an abaya and niqab (in some cases the hijjab is not removed while among other women) or place an opaque lightweight blanket over themselves. Many times I have had family members visiting and in mixed company (with male family members present who may not be viewed as “sanctioned” male relatives) the women will do this so they can participate in the conversations without compromising their values.
Then on the other hand you have the group of Saudi women (usually in the age 30 and below crowd) who make a big fuss when they hear an “unsanctioned” man is approaching and make a great display of grabbing their abayas or a sheet but somehow when the man comes in, the woman somehow always loses part of her cover. I’ve learned this is part of a ritual among some women who are less conservative and perhaps being a little bit playful or flirting. They are also the ones who will allow glimpses of themselves to be seen (uncovered) when men may be gathered in another room. They will pretend they did not know the men were in the other room and gasp and giggle as they hurry past the doorway from where they are able to be briefly viewed by the men.
I may be wrong but I’ve come to view these tactics as “subtle Saudi flirting.”
Filed under: abbya, Dress, Saudi culture, Women Issues
Muslim flirting in my experience is anything but subtle, and some women have perfected it to a fine art. The key points are to pretend it is not happening, and to rigorously deny it if commented upon. Also, of course to “subtly” outdo the other women present, and preferrably do everything in the name of Islam–hence the abaya flirt.
Men do it too, only differently obviously. Once had an inlaw flirt with one of my students using a teaching point about Islam–in front of his wife and her siblings, including two brothers no less–and managed to insult me in the same flirt sequence. A talented one that!
No sarcasm intended.
I think that there are women who are incapable of being anything other than flirtatious – it’s in their DNA. They don’t mean anything by it, usually, and often they are unaware that they are doing it. I find it more amusing than annoying although I suppose if it were directed at my husband I might feel differently.
If it is not in the DNA, then surely it is in the hormones. My oldest daughter was a compulsive flirt, and gave her father and me no end of difficulties. She especially liked to flirt with Saudi boys (she is Egyptian). Oh, I could write reams about the issue!
All young people must devise ways to flirt. All cultures set up measures to control sexual behavior, and all people find ways to circumvent the system. This is an aspect of the human condition.
Some days I find it amusing and entertaining and some days perhaps I am more sarcastic and find it hypocritical.
This is really funny and true! and blv me it doesn’t only happen in the Saudi culture. However, I do know what you mean I visit Riyadh every summer and I see it every year . Honestly like you said it’s pretty entertaining! Again not all saudi women are like that, but i think if they are teenagers i might understand, but they are older women than that always confuses me when i see it happening.
As a hot blooded young male (previously single) I have to be honest and say I love those flirty Saudi females
Sometimes it’s subtle, yes, other times not so much. I remember many moons ago a friend and I were in a mall. It was morning so it was quite empty at the time. A comely lass in a fashionable abaya and an “afterthought hijab” passes by us and quickly flashes us with her miniskirt and shapely legs disguising the maneuver as retying her abaya. Me and my friends were way too shy at that time of our life to initiate our own attack
Oh yes Saudi Jawa…the antics at the mall are quite entertaining! And tell me, did the comely lass, even though it was inside a mall, continue to wear her dark glasses as well? I can never figure out why all these girls with all the make up, jewelry, very fitted abayas or abayas which remain “somewhat open” will also wear the sunglasses…. or if the sunglasses are removed, their eyes are made up like a model.
lol…some of my more handsome male colleagues have made similar remarks about our female students who regularly adjust the hejab in front of them.
[...] January 4, 2009 at 11:44 am (Uncategorized) Tags: Saudi Arabia http://americanbedu.com/2009/01/04/you%e2%80%99re-in-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-hurry-up-and-cover/ [...]
Dear sisters,
you may live in KSA but it is not another planet. Where is your compassion for your Palestinian sisters??!! Wake-up sisters. Israel is attacking Islam itself, so for a person being in KSA this must be a significant event worth adressing in your blog……….
Yes, of course there is flirting in Saudi Arabia….as it is all over the world….I dont think there is any exception…The only difference I guess is in the ways people use to flirt in different countries….In Saudi Arabia it is sublte….I would say that women in KSA ,at times, use their veils for that purpose…I would say that it reminds me of an article I had read about how Spanish women used to flirt in the past using their fans—the signals were subtle…but the ones that know them, can pick them
I like the analogy between the spanish fans and the veils as each one relies on the eyes to convey unsaid words…
I’ve never seen this .. i guess I don’t socialize enough
But what I can’t stand is when saudi women choose to veil up in front of certain men. .. what i mean is
One day Mr. Man (for the record Mr. Man is black… yes shocker) went into a b-day party to get one of the girls. It was in a public place.. but not busy as it was morning. Saudi ladies ignored him.. and went on being uncovered and doing whatever it was they were doing. another saudi guy comes in, not black, obviously saudi and they all rush to cover as if Mr. Mans blackness not only made him the driver but also made him a non man.. or at least a male without as much sexual drive as the next.
now that annoys me
This one makes me smile. I saw so much of this in a previous job here. We had to inform our ladies when a man was present for IT support or maintenance so they could be sure to stay in their classes… but it’s amazing how many needed to visit the restrooms or go get a drink, or visit the office to talk to management at those exact times – forgetting their abayas.
It would have been funny if we hadn’t had to go to such great lengths and put so much effort into trying to avoid such encounters when it is obvious that few care, it’s all for appearances. For example we often had to stay at work late at night or on weekends to supervise men working in our women’s premises because they could not work while there were Saudi women in the building during the day. In an emergency we once hid a technician in a refrigerator box and wheeled him in on a trolley – it felt like a small victory.
Nzingha – I would also be insulted and sounds like a prime example of Saudi racism.
Sprinkle – that is funny indeed! And tell me about, how easily it is for some of the young Saudi ladies to naturally “forget” about their abayas…
Sorry to kind of go off topic with my topic right now but I found
Nzingha’s comment about her husband to be quite interesting when compared to the US version of racism. Darker skinned men in Saudi appear to be viewed in what seems to be an almost eunuch like state which is really in direct contrast to the racism in the US where black men were/are viewed as hypersexualized and capable of defiling a white woman at any moment. I think if women were required to wear hijab/abaya in the US the opposite would be happening. You’re see women covering up infront of the black guy and disrobing in the presence of a white guy
Sorry for the brief detour
I understand where you are coming from Tulip. And Nzingha, I think this would make an excellent topic of discussion for your blog – the Saudi concept of the “non-man.”
Alot of fun comments! The universality of flirting especially among adolescents and young adults, and the lifelong flirty personality are so true. Even in Maoist China, on a visit as a teenager, one could notice the very subtle (more subtle than described here) flirtations of the uniformed makeupless teenage masses.
Racism in Saudi Arabia, not so fun. I once heard a British expat wife trying to subtly warn an Asian expat wife (trailing spouse of an executive) pre-posting without offending. She later told me it was quite blatant. Unfortunately racism is also universal, and not just “a white man’s burden”. Just ask any Filipina executive expat wife in Hong Kong (all are mistaken for maids, or maids who done good by marrying the boss).
I agree there are a few blog posts in the topic.
I think because it’s such a segregated society, it’s something you should expect when a male and female come in contact, or have the opportunity to. It definitely defeats the purpose of the hijab, but then again, if your forced to wear it to begin with, than your heart isn’t exactly intact with the true intent.
To me, Saudi guys are super flirtious when they are around girls at the university, even the ones who cover, including me! I dress in western apparel, but I never knew they’d be brave enough to just walk right up and start chatting… others just gawk… and these are men who are suppose to come from a society of Islamic morals.
But I forgive them, because of the reasons I mentioned to begin with. You can’t expect guys and girls not to act that way if they never have the chance to realize it’s not that worth it to begin with.
When our women’s group, that meet in the hotels are there, the women are all uncovered. But, if we have a Saudi guest come around, everyone dives for cover. It’s hilarious…..yes, the workers/drivers etc. are seen as ‘non-men’ here for some reason. And yet, many of them practice Islam more than the Saudi men do. Just one of those crazy things that are done here in this country. Definitely racism.
About Saudi women being discrimintive about who they should cover from, I know that not many view foreign men as “non-men” in the way that is portrayed as racism in the comments above but actually that all other nationalities don’t look at a woman like a sex object as we know that traditional Saudis do. Plus the Saudi man will talk about a woman who he has seen uncovered and if this occurs more than once, trust that not only the uncovered woman but also her whole family will get a reputation of being too easy and liberal. And because they realize this, they are in hurry to find that abaya when they see the thobe.
Interesting perspective… Seems a good reason to me.
susie, i think you expect saudis to be super muslim.
its obvious as day that they are not perfect.
you see their actions as hypocritical. the actions are hypocritical.
but you also belong to a culture that is very hypocritical. u don’t see that though because youre desensitized to it.
women in the west claim they are ‘free’ yet they have to be the ones to make themselves ‘look’ a certain way to please who? —> men.
saudiwoman–an interesting comment but I think that while it is an excellent explanation of the issue of reputation, somehow “desexing” the others living in the same segregated country is somehow racist. Surely “a glimpse of stocking is truly shocking” after a while to anyone living there. Reminds me of african colonial literature and the assumptions that the houseboy would behave like a eunich.
I think we probably all have prejudices that are culturally influenced and we need to be willing to shine a light on them and not deny that they exist. Sometimes, the prejudice can come from a place of good intentions even – many years ago, when we were living in Southern California, an elderly lady offered my husband a job doing her yard work when she heard his accent (Irish like mine). On more than one occasion, after my son was born, I was mistaken for his nanny – again because of that unmistakable Irish brogue – while at the local park, and offered employment by other mommies. I took it as a compliment to my mothering skills.
Just to illustrate on my above comment, just last week a friend of mine told me that she wished that she could uncover her face like I do. And when I asked her why not, since I know that her husband is not against it, she said that she was worried that her daughters would gain a liberal reputation because of their mother and hence deemed unmarriable.
Another thing for expats to notice is to ask your uncovered Saudi women colleagues whether or not they cover if an adult male cousin comes into the room at a social function. If they are not from the western region, I’ll bet an arm and a leg that 99% will answer that yes they do.
I should write a more detailed post on this
I for one would be interested in a more detailed post on this.
My own comments on Filipinas stem from what they have told me themselves, and on African literature from my African professor. On Saudis from expats who had been posted there, readings, and the type of comments posted here. My own conversations with Saudis have been more about their expat experiences!
I would say there is a racist aspect to it since the original comment was about looking/being black as opposed to Arab (aside from dress I would assume it is hard to distinguish between a Saudi and any other Arab) whereas the poster’s (Nzingha’s) husband, if I understand correctly, has a large Saudi tribe to defame anyone’s character to if he chose.
Hmm…you know may husband was called “khadam” by relatives and so called “friends” alike because of his coloring compared to the rest of his family…then I waltzed into their lives and upset that casket with my olive skin tone while my brothers range from the darkest of night to the one we call “gold” because he is well golden…happens with latinos who are Moors (spanish/arab)- we seem to have everyone’s coloring but a specific one of our own!
Racism…hmmm…its the kettle calling the pot black…the kettle wants the fact that it is a kettle be above the fact that its just as black…
The non-male issue even comes up in Bahrain. Many times I have seen ladies dive for cover when Bahraini men enter the area…but are quite relaxed about covering around the houseboy…gardener…driver etc.
Go visit any govt school here and they are crawling with male workers…everything from maintenance to gardeners etc…the girls walk around without worrying about abayas or hijabs (those that typically wear them) but if a Bahraini father, brother etc happens to enter the school grounds…suddenly girls are jumping into the nearest doorways or rushing into the bathrooms etc…I just laugh…what else can I do?
okay….reading and enjoying the many comments. I must certainly pull up an earlier post I did on racism and provide the link for those interested. I would very much enjoy hearing more from Nzingha and Saudiwoman on their blogs about this topic.
saudiwoman- it would be an issue of saudi vs non saudi and the families rep. But 3 things to consider
1. the women assumed because of his skin color alone he wasn’t saudi. He had a thobe just like any other saudi and as soon as he speaks you know he is from Jeddah. It was a color issue which for them made it a non covering issue.
2. drivers and maids talk- we can easily learn all the busienss of another family by talking to their driver or maids. in fact i know some who have decided not to marry girls based on what their drivers said about her habits. We all know maids talk, who than will talk to madam a potential mother in law and give the low down. I had one maid, give her a few minutes with anyone I knew who didn’t pay their maids, who beat them, and what man was sneaking in their hired helps rooms at night.
3. there is an overall view that men of certain countries are not a sexual threat. We have male drivers, no one assumes that dude is going to have an affair with madam because they don’t view him as sexual. Same with a maid who is staying with an unrelated family for years at a time. Their status as sexual beings are diminished to the point where one doesn’t care that they uncover in front of them. Men walk around the house in underwear with maids.. wouldn’t do that with other women.
So while it may be a reputation thing.. there is the underlying thinking certain people of an assumed ethnicity are not a sexual threat.
Chiara- yes any woman of any eastern appearance moving to Saudi or the gulf in general will be assumed maids or nurses. According to a friend the key is to glam it up.. put on your good clothes, expensive shoes, carry an expensive bag and get the bling bling out and dusted off. At that point they understand your a wife.. alhough it is assumed your married to a white guy that met you in a stripper club in the worst part of town.
ps bedu who has time to blog when we leave extended comments here
don’t stop the extended comments…I love them!
Blime me! I feel like this is racsim against Saudi men not other nationalties!
to be honest, this is an instinctive protcol.. the driver won’t cough and yell “al darb” or “tagh6y ya marah” (cover up women) when he enters a room were an unrelated women is in… A Saudi man feels obliged to… if a Saudi man is mistaken for a Driver or a foreign shopkeeper, well its his lucky day.
dw- lucky day? when you go out and ask a fillipino clerk in Sacco to help you with an item he stands across the room and says “what do you want” with an attitude. When the white wife asks for help they smile and run to me (yes run litterally) and ask “yes madam?”
or when your at a check out w/ a big purchase of electronics and your speaking w/ the saudi cashier about checking out and he turns to your white wife who hasn’t said a word to you and says “Is this all madam that you need”. as if the ma he has been talking to suddenly bacame invisible.
or being followed by the mutawwa and asked to prove your marriedness based on the assumption girly shouldn’t be driving up front w/ that black driver.
or too many other situations where Mr. Manis considered of a lower status and treated differently because of his skin color.
yea.. lucky indeed.
I think in Nzingha’s case it doesn’t relate to racism as it much of a class issue. It relates back to slavery and also to the problem of illegal African immigrants in recent times. Saudi Arabia can be a very difficult place to some communities, do they view darker colored men as lesser men? I have my doubts it relates to sex as much as it relates to social structure… their problems could be very much the same as other illegal immigrants around the world.
I do have my issues with class issues, racial discrimination, tribal and sectarian favorism in Saudi! It’s there, you cannot deny that.. like any other place on Earth. I do not view the current issue at hand to be a race issue.. but I do see that some people who are discriminated fail to escape the stereotype that portrays them…. in time the discrimination is unjust and in others the person just claims to be discriminated.. while he embodies everything negative about why he was discriminated
I happen to see sectarian discrimination in recruitment field, while I see ten folds more claim sectarian discrimination while they were just lousy underachievers. Most of the time, those who claim they were discriminated are the ones that ruin every chance of those who were not chosen for their sectarian beliefs.
I went on and rambled out of scope.. back to work I guess.
Nzingha, I submitted my recent comment before I got to see your last submit. I submitted half way through reading the comments. I went back, continued reading and I saw that my comment is a bit untacky to your situation. ( I was writing while applicants were taking exams, so it took me some while)
I really don’t have much information about what put you on this defensive stance. I gather from the comments where you said Mr.man and a commenter argued Nzingha’s husband.. I am not sure though I can make assumptions and I didn’t want to make one of my own without enough information.
You need to understand that you can look behind many things with different shades of gray.. while what you consider racism might just be an innocent assumption.. What implies a person as racist? A cashier might be ignoring the man if her husband looked like driver to him.. it might not just be the color.. He might seen himself too many times and from experience adapted that attitude to address the madam.
Mutawwas are not my popular crowd and I have many things about them that I don’t even agree with.
I personally feel very nervous around disabled people, I might address those who accompany them more often.. does that make a bad person?
You have to understand that it only takes moments for a person to take a first impression about another individual.. those few moments of contact are based primarily on physical features and approach manners. Its will be a hasty prejudice and often not accurate.
To make my comment clear about lucky shopkeepers, please visit perfume and mobile shops more often.. where Saudi women might expect an Indian shopkeeper for example. You will see them unveil to feel more comfortable looking at items and shopping.. primarily because he probably won’t talk about it to Saudis.. or the lynch mob (hy2ah will be around the corner and bust his ass). This is what happened once to a poor record store man in a comment I read around here.. because a women unvield in his record shop.. he was harrased. A Saudi for them will probably get his way around and got a Wasta to cover his back.. while non-Saudis more often don’t.. but if they do, you will not see them approach the place.
I am sorry if you are angry about some of what I said but I never said there wasn’t any discrimination and it’s all fine and dandy under KSA. I am just sharing my view about it. Which happens to be some friends who are mobile shop owners and my social background as a bedu, espcially having to basically beg them to open the way for me to reach my room when I come back from work and find female guests in the interior majlis in front of the stairway.
DW–Thank you for your perspective. As a faithful, if recent ,reader of Nzingha’s blog and comments I knew that Mr. Man is her blog name for her husband who is a member of a Saudi/Gulf tribe. Her own comment here identified him as black in appearance to the point of eliciting racist behaviours in others.
The assumption based on racial appearance of social position, ethnic affiliation, sexual behaviour, and worthiness of one’s respect (covering or not) is by definition racist–even if statistically accurate (95% of Filipinas in Hong Kong are maids, some do marry the boss and glam up, some of the maids are highly educated women looking for money and a visa, some Filipinas really are highly educated aristocratic expat wives, some “filipinas” are really chinese like one friend, or of royal Hawaiian decent like another, who was chatted up by a passenger on the bus in front of her white American husband as he thought she was the maid to the children (her own) she accompanied).
I hope I was clear that I believe (based on experience and research) that racism is unfortunately universal. I do understand it can be more marked in Saudi than in some other places; and that is probably reinforced by the statistical likelihood of certain races filling certain positions. I certainly intended no offense to Saudis or yourself,
I agree that people should not internalize the stereotypes about them, nor falsely claim discrimination as it just reinforces the attitudes underlying the discrimination and takes energy away from redressing the real cases of discrimination.
Irisheyes–your examples of being an audible minority are both interesting and disconcerting–surely Americans don’t think all Irish are an underclass still recovering from the potato famine, or do you and your husband look young enough to pass for travelling/ foreign students in need of parttime jobs?
Nzingha–great examples if unpleasant experiences!
Chiara
)
white married to an Arab-looking Arab, introduced to each other by our black-looking Arab friend–try travelling to Ireland with that combo (just kidding the Irish were very nice to all of us even though Libya was funding the PLO to train the IRA at the time
A friend of mine is a “match maker”…one of those ladies that people call when looking for a husband or wife for their son or daughter. She gets a list of “requirements” in the potential spouse…and then goes hunting. When I listen to her talking to them…asking what they are looking for etc…piety…honesty…reputation etc all take third fourth and fifth positions…first and second are taken up almost exclusively with skin color for either him or her…and whether or not she wears hijab…that should tell you all about how they view the color of skin over here….for females…the whiter the better….but you will never hear a family asking for a potential husband that is more than a shade or two darker than their daughter…just doesnt happen.
The one lady I know that “fell in love” and married a very dark skinned Arab man against her families wishes…has had no contact with them since she married…and she has 4 kids now…and they all live within a short distance from each other…its that bad,
One of the Arab men I had a flirtation with (pre-marriage) said “I am very dark–that doesn’t bother you?” On learning I found his dark skin attractive he was equally surprised and deliriously happy.
oh yes…it is quite common here when making potential inquiries regarding marriage to ask about skin color early on….
DW- my ‘defensive stance’ I’m sure you figured out. And yes I can give a million excuses to the actions of people when I’m outside looking in. Standing there witnessing it however is disapointing at best. I have a zero tolerance policy for racism. Just who I am and how I choose to raise my kiddos. I stand up and call it like I see it. I could give it a rosey picture but I guess that simply denies what it is.
Bedu- I do get the “are they your kids” at times. Some do think I’m the nanny (considering my nanny I see why) especially in the summer when the kiddos get darker. And yes I’ve had one to many ask “are they yours? But they don’t look like you. They are…” and they get quite. “Brown?” I ask cause i know the drill.. I tell them my husband is black than I get the usual “Ohh.. their color is good though”
coolred- we had a nephew recently tell me what he wanted in a wife. A list of physical features.. and the tone of her skin. He sat in his black great uncles kitchen telling me how no not black cause he can’t have a black wife.
I like dark skin. I just think it’s beautiful
)
But I would never consider that in choosing a mate.
(My horse is dark brown though
……
and I thought i had a chance with Aafke.. dang it!
Just Kidding!
Nader, I am shocked and dismayed! Do I smell (I can hardly bring myself to write the word) (What will this do to Bedu’s blog?)
Do I smell,,,, ”Flirtatious remark”?????????????????
I meant I’d never choose a dreamrabbit for colour.
And a beard can always be shaved off…….
actually try looking at the “marriage ads” commonly associated with Indians seeking a spouse. The ads will inevitably ALWAYS mention color preferences.
I would note that there have been scientific studies that investigate the positive benefits of flirting in non-human primates.
Flirting is much more than a socio-cultural, or even human activity.
I have the opposite problem with skin color! While everyone fawns over me for being so fair I secretly wish that I were darker.
I’d go tanning, but I already have a wrinkle!
On Saudis, racism, discrimination, foreigners, and non-men, by Saudis and longterm expats read:
Gosaibi vindicated
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=117805&d=4&m=1&y=2009&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom
Covers many of the issues addressed here, but not the flirty bits, of course.
Even though I agree with treatment problems in the article.. and even abuse to labor. I have to disagree about linking salaries to nationalities and treatment.
In the Article an Indian man mentioned his experience of receiving a vast difference in the package offered to him compared to his German peer and how after he got a western citizenship he was acquired a better deal than other Indians from his nation.
I can agree with him that the treatment can change, however salaries are not based by ethnicity.. most companies wouldn’t want to pay westerners more money for their blue eyes.. they are putting offers that can attract expats according to a recruitment plan. But even the treatment sometimes is influenced by the position and not race/color or nationality.
I have to note that mistreatment can happen even to Saudis. One example was the national survey representative, who is Saudi and an educator! When he came to acquire data about our family and household. I personally understood his job and wanted to be very clear with him. However my younger brother who was at the time in High school was sitting in the same majlis with his friend. I was treating that person with respect because he was a guest of my father to me as he knocked on our door.. my brother didn’t feel the same and was very rude to him.. I almost went ballistic that day.
DW- I think “sometimes” is the key word as to how pay is determined in Saudi. I would agree that pay is basically based on ones nationality. Not necessarily color or original nationality.
Hold an indian passport and you get paid less
hold a us passport and your a naturalized us citzen orginally from indian and your paid more
I would also point out that this pay discrimination does NOT benefit saudis in the long run. For instance.. a saudi petroleum engineer on the same level as an American engineer will be paid MUCH less in total package.
1. pay is better for the american
2. school is paid for the americans kids
3. housing allowance is higher for the american
4. insurance is generally better in foriegn based companies for americans
5. americans get a paid ticket home once to twice a year a saudi doesn’t get a ticket at all
6. many americans can recieve hardship allowances in their pay a saudi will not
7. entertainment for clients expenses are usually more for americans than a saudi
8. americans tend to get the better cars while a saudi may just get a car allowance
Mr. Man (the husband) is in management, has worked for both a US based company and now a saudi one. I know the differences in pay based on nationalities and it is sickening.
Now I should point out that it could be of the benefit of a saudi if they are up against a lower nationality status. Say the guy isn’t american.. he is indian than his pay isn’t as good as the American he doesn’t recieve the same benefits although most times he’ll recieve some better benefits than a saudi (schooling, flights home ect)
even the lowly workers get paid differently on the basis of nationality.. take a maid you won’t pay the same for an Indonesian maid (monthly salary right now I think is 750) a fillipino (who is up to 1500 sr right now can be less.. like 1000) a sri lanken (500 sr a month) while the government tries the “it is about experience” bs.. it is just that bs
If you look at the pay structures one might actually figure out it is cheaper to higher saudis in the long run. Even the lowly workers.. when you have to hire 7 to do the job of 1 person
and yes mistreatment can happen to saudis especially in the work force. The assumptions of Saudis and their work ethics are largely negative even the ‘lower’ status co workers will spout “He’s saudi” as if he just spit out the worst filfth from his mouth. The negative assumptions of the quality of work done by saudis is also negative. And the their treatment by co workers and upper management many times reflects that.
btw I’m pro saudization and i’m anti pay discriminiation and I’m usually the voice that loudly addresses these issues
Nzingha – it really depends which agency you go through for a housemaid in regards to the going rate. I used Fast Track Agency in Riyadh and although I did not get a Filipina housemaid, through Fast Track, it would have been 800 SAR month.
Thanks for the follow-up comments to the article DW and Nzingha.
Both very enlightening on a number of points, and congruent with my experience of expat vs local contracts in other countries (including when the expat accepts to stay on a local contract).
I also agree with training local experts, enculturation, and “equal pay for equal work”.
I am African American(Brown) my husband is Arab(Light). My children look like me(Brown). So I can only imagine what the people will think if we moved to Saudi. It might go a little like this “Astigfurallaah! The brother slept with the maid and had kids. Well atleast he married her!” LOL!!
Or maybe “She done good…trapped the boss” (be prepared for maid envy ie envy from other maids)
Nzingha I am also anti pay discrimination but this whole issue is not because someone at a company is thinking what each nationality deserves. What they do is recruit in the countries themselves and draw up packages that would compete with the market in that country. So an Indian engineer is paid less is India than an American egineer in the USA and hence the difference in pay in Saudi. Because orginally there were no qualified Saudis to create packages that are specific to the Saudi market. Now things are different with globalization and the increasing numbers of qualified Saudi…etc.
Saudiwoman– I agree. From experience, at least with international postings (company transfers), the pay is at the same rate as in the country of recruitment, and the benefits Nzingha described are added on, plus hardship pay for certain places, and cost of living pay for some.
Where international recruiters are used they offer packages that include financial incentives (beyond those of the country they are recruiting in) and benefits like those Nzingha listed to induce people to leave their home countries.
I think that is part of what DW was saying.
In the maid market, in my experience elsewhere, they are paid by what they will work for, what their qualifications are (most Filipinas have very good English, many Indonesians not so), how poor their country of origin is, and how new their ethnic group is to the maid market (do not yet have activist organizations, haven’t proven their value). Same as Saudi, Indonesians cheaper than Filipinas, cheaper than locals; South Asians cheapest of all.
saudiwoman- I’ve heard it explained that way.. but than if you actually break down some of the figures.. it is cheaper in several parts of the us to live than it does in mumbai india
It is interesting when you look at the rankings http://searchwarp.com/swa402413.htm and http://www.skyscraperlife.com/skytalk/15759-rankings-global-cost-living.html
but than we have the practice of it all. example.. a guy Mr. man knows was working for aramco and he recieved his canadian citizenship.. I think he was Jordanian (cost of living is more than most parts of the US so figure that out) anyway.. he went to aramco to negotiate based on his new nationality.. they refused.. he quit went to work for an agency that aramco hires from.. he went back to work through that agency for aramco making much more than he did while with aramco. Make sense??
I can see how the original thought made sense.. but where are we now? We are to a point where a saudi is getting doo doo pay doing the same exact work while an american who may not even be as good gets more.. plus better benefits and his home town living could be much cheaper than it is in saudi. So even if in theory it isn’t based on nationality in practice it sure does look that way
Bedu- I’ve been told some agencies are still reqruiting at old fees. Because the fillipinos are not happy w/ the hike. Turns out they have to pay two months salary in their country to the recruiters there to be recruited to begin with.. grrrr there is another post for ya
chiara- my fillipinos english matters not as she scrubs my toilet…. she does it the same way any indonesian maid would or a sri lanken maid.
I think the argument was put forth by some saudi official that maids pay was not based on nationality.. but experience. but you can get an inexperienced fillipino and still pay the same rate you would with one years of experience.. but a sri lanken who has years of experience gets paid less than the fillipino with no experience. .. ????
Nzingha–I think we are agreeing that the maid market is racist, although maybe my comment wasn’t clear enough, or didn’t acknowledge your rightness enough
.
but it did in Hong Kong–major labour action, many news articles, etc.).
), a little more English even from the Chinese maintenance man would have been helpful.
My only point about “experience” is that as a group the more established the ethnicity is the more likely they will be able to demand as a group a higher pay (maybe that would never happen in Saudi
Filipinas were valued there for their English but, as well as toilets, they usually were more involved in child care (where their higher levels of education were also valued)–hopefully not simultaneously except for potty training–and for some, serving in the formal dining room with proper etiquette.
On the other hand, after long charades and finally learning the Hong Kong word “kooka”: British cooker; American stove; Canadian–just change the whatnot’s fuse please (we are a very polite adaptable nationality
You remain “Queen Nzingha”, if not a direct descendent of the Angolan warrior (too white
), at least a worthy namesake! 
chiara- I was more addressing the comments of the saudi official, forget who it was, who said the pay was based on experience and your comments just reminded me of it.
And fillipinos did come in higher demand here due to their ‘english’ skills. which i have to remind ladies all the time “don’t depend on your maids to give your chidlren english” and the embassy demanded more money for the ladies here, in fact double, which not many were pleased with because the demand for them went down.
Just pointing out the whole experience thing is a crock
now convince Mr. Man I’m Queen and we live in a matriarchal world and my life would be easier
I’m sure Mr. Man is well aware of your Queenliness,even if he made need the occasional royal reminder.
Changing the Gulf (since you are so bi-national, and his tribe so multi-national you need transformation of the whole peninsula) into a matriarchy may well prove a tad difficult :-0 :-0 :-0 .
Even funnier, spreading the same across North Africa (where my conjugal tribe lives)–oh, oh, oh, I can here one of my BILs (the highest educated, highest employed one, and the same master flirter as above) roaring from across the pond now! Fee fi fo fum I smell the intelligence of a Westerb woman… :-0
Oops, not so intelligent– “may need”; “I can hear”; “Western woman” –bad, bad, copy editing!
In case of the Jordinain fellow, I have seen this before.. It’s more like policy restrictions or bureaucracy problems. The usual workaround is what the fellow did, quit.. come back through the agency… in most of the person already knows that he is going to get the job beforehand! He has much better chance to come back to the same field as he is already experienced and familiar with the environment.
Nzingha, I think I missed your point about where you were heading with this. I think you mean nationalization? I believe Saudis still have a long way to go to completely nationalize their work force. New milestones are made every now and then but there are still too much ground to cover. If you have some more insight about the Saudi workforce regulations you will find the reason why some posts are considered for expats and not locals. It’s not easy for an employer to end a Saudi contract and it could get nasty if it is not done probably. While many expats enjoy a stable career, they are probably focused on a certain set of positions that they will hold for a long period of time. It differs between nationalities and experiences also. A western specialist for example can be a lead clinical technician, in normal circumstances you will not see him consider changing his focus other posts (it vary though in some cases). However you will see Filipino clerks might take up promotion to new posts. For example they start as a filing clerk for 2000sr and promote to an admin assistant for 4000 or more.
If we look at the Saudi technicians, Engineers and specialized personnel, you will find that inevtibly with proper training and character they are bound to have a career path which usually ends up in a leading position.
Recently the Saudi IT field seems to be reserved to Saudis at most of the time with some posts filled with Asian technicians… because the IT field in Saudi has flourished and there is a lot of skilled workers in the sector.
As a I said though, the Saudis still have a long way to go because of a lot of binding aspects from the Saudi culture.. For example you cannot expect to nationalize all domestic labor to Saudi nationals, or a lot of technical positions that traditionally or religiously the Saudis are not fond of.. this vary from working in banks to posts like Artist, Music composer and the like.
It’s I have recently seen some documentaries about some industries employing under educated/troubled Saudi women to industry processes like packing goods and non-mechanized industry processes.. the salaries are very low as an average.. it’s still an honest earning for the troubled men and women in the society. I do hope for better minimum wages set by the government though and to hopefully for the government to get more involved to regulate the high living costs Saudi now endure (especially the ridiculously high realestate value)
A little addition to the topic.. As any other place in the world, you will have a crazy under skilled douche with repulsive manners and an aggressive mentality.. The only way that those guys are distinctive here than others from around the globe.. is that they can play a puppy dog eyes to a Saudi regional/stockholder prince and try to shove a letter down the employer throat from such bodies. 90% of the time it doesn’t work out for them.. they still can get too annoying and time wasting to cater them. As most of them don’t believe that they should improve their skills and simply believe that recruiters have jobs in their pockets but don’t want to give it to you.
DW – you did an excellent job of explaining the Saudi and non-Saudi hiring system and criteria. I’m also pleased to know of companies such as Abdul Latif Jameel which has excellent programs geared to providing skills and trades to Saudis and assist them with entering the workforce.
I am a bit curious on your comment about positions Saudis not generally fond of for all the Saudis I know consider a position in a bank to usually be prestigious and a good job.
Carol, the usual view of a bank job is related to the prohibitive view of interest.. so generally a Saudi would be very reluctant and unstable in considering a job in a Bank.
This happened to a dear friend of mine as he worked in a corporate office in a Saudi bank, for him it was okay to work.. but socially he was pressured by some of his relatives to leave it. I really learned a lot from his stance against his relatives which showed defiance to the pressure.. his argument was more than enough to silence them.
He only stated to them.. if you can guarantee me a job and put it in my hand.. I will leave the bank.. other than that I will not leave this job!
After a while he got himself a better career with NGHA.
Very interesting…I have several family members working at varying levels in banks who have voiced no frustrations or discontent.
NGHA Riyadh or Jeddah?
DW- nationalization aka saudization in saudi. The governments offical policies to saudize the private sector and rely less on a foriegn work force. of course the official policies haven’t been eagerly enforced nor have they addressed the economic hardships of the average saudi family and thus have saudized many ‘low level’ jobs in the private sector. Add in companies tend to play w/ their saudization numbers when officals come and check up which adds into a lack of progress in this area.
as I said Mr. Man (the husband) is in management I’m personally aware of the problems employing saudis when it comes to termination. While I understand these regulations were put in place to protect the saudi worker from being fired wrongly many saudis have unfortunately taken advantage of the situation and shaft their employers. i can relate horror stories about this issue and even bloged about it myself and it is another thing that the officials have to look to and correct in order for the country to move in a positive way.
I don’t think the IT jobs are fully saudized yet, I could be wrong. I know more younger saudis are entering into this field but diversity must be the key which I don’t think many are grasping. One cant be scared of ‘lower’ level jobs and feel they are better than them. For example
Street cleaners, as me and Mr. Man were in the car driving past i counted 7 of the foriegn workers sweeping side walks. one with a broom six more or less just walking about. Lets do some math
salary per person about 400 SR a month x 7 = 2800 Sr
housing with food will be about 300 sr a month x 7 = 2100 sr
cost to bring one person in for two years work 5000 sr per person x 7 = 35000 / 24 = 1458 sr a month
cost to send them home about 2000 x 7 = 14000 / 24 because it is after a 2 year period if they are lucky 583 sr
total per month 6941 sr per month which can be paid to one saudi to do the job. Contrary to the ‘respected’ job positions everyone assumes saudis will only settle for.. I know plenty that will jump at such a monthly income even less just to sweep sidwalks and pick up litter.
there are plenty of issues that saudi, both the government and the citizen, needs to address as far as working. From the lack of proper skills, lacking good work ethics, turning their nose up to honest work, failure to have a minnimum wage, and programs in place to help pay for more employed saudis.
I very much believe saudi can over come many of the issues they are facing in a more speedy fashion than they are now. I do think many of the leaders are out of touch and lack creative approaches because of their ‘standards’ which they assume all Saudis should retain for some percieved ‘pride’ in not providing for yourself or your family.
Now you don’t want me to get started on women in the work force here in Saudi
think I don’t shut up now lol..
Bedu- I know several saudis working in banks and I didn’t realize there was a cultural issue with it either.
He works in Riyadh now. As for banks, its not a common disatistfaction now.. it usually depends on the family background. To most people the issue of Riba is 7aram takes a back seat to more obvious concern about working in banks. Highly educated people won’t view problems with it..Those without determination might have it as an excuse, sometimes undermining themselves even before they apply to a bank. Most people who are working in a Bank won’t look back at that issue.. its mostly those who recently joined or considering an offer.
Interesting observations Nzingha.. I really wish that our government officials look as creatively as you did into the problems. I do see changes towards better attitude from them.. things that sometimes shock me (in a pleasant way!) Yet, you are correct most of the time it’s not fast enough.. but it’s a huge wheel I guess.. hopefully it will gain momentum!
Well about Saudi women employment, I would really be happy to see what you think.. it will help me a lot since I only meet those who are interested in working with NGHA… it’s not easy to have a full view about it. It’s a huge issue and not one sided unfortunately.. there are many fronts.
However I am afraid I lack time, I am visiting Qatar tonight to attend an Art Exhibit of a dear acquitence of mine in Doha. She might one of the first members of an online Art community I frequently contribute to.. she is setting a new mile stone for Arab youth and some of our members are going there to support her!
DW – that is wonderful news for your acquaintance and wish her the very best. I know some Saudi female artists whose works are exquisite.
okay DW…are you also at NGHA?!
A friend of mine works w/ the NG hospital. I have some interesting talks w/ her about suadi life
I think i’ll just write my views on women working in saudi and post it on my blog .. some of my ideas are extremely progressive.. like women working more in the public sphere vs that of say private offices. This I think is probably a better route to take than trying to ‘feminize’ every office that wants to employ women. Plus it is a low cost minimum investment as far as transition and training goes. But i’ll have to give it some detailed explanation and i’ll post a link here.
I look forward to reading that post Nzingha.
Ditto.
Very short sighted analysis with your numbers Nzingha. Your example … straw man fallacy on top of hasty generalization???
You saw 7 men doing work equivalent to 1 man and generalized it for all times … everywhere … for everyone in Saudi Arabia and came with ~7K figure. To make your numbers look good, you created a straw man argument by assuming that 1 Saudi will do a better/equivalent job to 7 foreign workers. Now I would not want to go for a generalization myself but “relatively” and “probably,” if I had to throw a blind guess, I would be more inclined to choose the group of 7 Saudis doing the work equivalent to 1 Saudi than choosing the group of 7 non-Saudis doing the work equivalent to 1 non-Saudi.
My point is that you can’t inflate the numbers and make the problem seem like an issue of “just the govt. and authorities on the top.” It IS a reality that most Saudis do not like to do these “low level” jobs. So it’s more of an attitude problem than paying a Saudi 7 thousand (who will in turn do the job better than 7 foreign workers).
As a non-Muslim and someone who is fairly unfamiliar with Saudis in general, (most of my Muslim friends are either south Asian, Lebanese, or African), I find this description of flirting really interesting.
But I’m from Pennsylvania and know that it’s a similar situation with other conservative cultures that place feminine modesty at a high importance. Here in PA many of the famish girls are extremely modest in dress but are still known to be subtlety flirtatious despite the norm set up for them.
In Orthodox Jewish culture it’s a similar situation, my mother grew up in a fairly conservative Jewish household and tells me of how many of the girls she knew from Orthodox families tried to get away with as much as they could.
As for the question of racism, it seems like all of my Muslim friends, (none of them Saudi), have told me that they feel like Saudis think themselves to be the greatest Muslims and look down on darker skinned people, but I don’t know how true this is.
I may be going out on a limb but I have also come away with the impression that Saudis do view themselves as the greatest and/or pure Muslims. And I myself have experienced the occasional comment from a Saudi that as a muslim convert, I’m not a “true” muslim!
This is true, because teenaged and unmaried woman in all part of the world do flirt in their ways, but in saudi it is a very “INNOCENT” flirting…. no offence to anyone but flirting in other countrys mite be a french kiss or dirty dancing and touching each others part,,, while in saudi it is just showing off their face,, look at the difference… I am a non covered muslim and i believe in allah, i thot to my self once if all woman were covered all this sex, drugs, and animal behavior of people wouldn’t have happened….. We live in a very sinful world and i think the biggest problem is uncovered women
Hi Sara and welcome!
You raise an interesting point…what is the definition of flirting?
According to dictionary.com, flirting is:
to court triflingly or act amorously without serious intentions; play at love; coquet.
to trifle or toy, as with an idea: She flirted with the notion of buying a sports car.
There are a few other definitions provided as well but as a western woman, I’ve also thought of flirting as the one looks at another using their eyes for expression. I would not equate french kissing, dirty dancing or touching ones body parts as flirting…those terms sound beyond flirting to me.
I don’t think we live in a sinful world because of uncovered women. Isn’t that a bit harsh and judging?
Sara…cause uncovered women are just asking for whatever sinful things happen to them…or are they the ONLY ones who instigate or start sinful things…or maybe they are the aggressors against men and men are helpless against an uncovered woman?
What exactly are you saying when you say the world is a more sinful place cause women are uncovered? Sounds like you just took half the blame that men have in creating this sinful world and place ALL the blame squarely on the shoulders…or should I say bodies…of women?
As American Bedu said…harsh!!!