Any music other than “natural” music such as that made by beating ones hands on traditional drums is considered haram in Saudi Arabia. But that does not mean one does not hear music or see Saudis enjoying musical recitals, listening to the radio or their Ipod or enjoying the beat of music in other ways.
In fact in spite of the cultural traditions which may dictate against music, there are indeed musical stores throughout Saudi Arabia. These stores will carry a variety of instruments such as flutes, saxophones, clarinets, guitars, electric keyboards and traditional pianos. While these stores have a presence in popular shopping malls it is what I would call a “discreet” presence in that the store and the instruments are there. The sales staff are overall knowledgeable about the instruments. But the catch is if you attempt to try out one of the instruments, such as a guitar or a piano, the sales staff become very nervous and discourage playing an instrument for fear it would be heard by a nearby muttawa and cause problems.
I learned this when I was visiting one of the music stores as I have always avidly enjoyed playing the piano! I have found that after a stressful day there is nothing better for me to alleviate the stress than by “banging out” Bach or Beethoven or another classical piece on the piano. This is the first time in a long time I’ve been without a piano in my home so I am embarking on the hunt for a quality used piano. While a matter of personal preference I feel that the tone of the piano sounds better in the older pianos with real ivories than many of today’s keyboards with plastic coated keys. I have not found an active used piano market yet in Saudi Arabia but will let you all know when I have done so.
Filed under: Entertainment, Music, Saudi Arabia
That would drive me crazy also. I know this might be anathema to you, but you might want to show up at these stores with a good headset and plug it in and play the higher end 88 key weighted keyboards so you can at least play right there onsite. Don’t get me wrong, as a professional piano tuner technician for over 30 years and musician and an owner of a vintage Steinway M and Mason & Hamlin AA, I know there is no substitute for an acoustic, vintage piano.
As far as ivories adding to the tone of the piano vs. plastic key tops, there is simply no truth to that whatsoever. All the tone in any acoustic piano is generated through the tension resonant structure and the hammers. The tension resonant structure consists of the soundboard, bridges, strings, plate, rim and understructure.
Eben, welcome to the blog and thank you for your informative comments. How very fortunate for you to own a vintage Steinway. I think they have the most magnificent tones.
Carol, music is considered haram in Saudi because it is haram in Islam. I saw this in the comment section on Safiyyah’s blog Shalom to Salaam
http://shaalom2salaam.blogspot.com/2008/12/dale-jamaluddin-marcell-and-some.html
(Safiyyah – I tried to leave a comment but my pc is acting funky…it was nice ’seeing’ you)and the brother basically summed it up much better than I could.
On the issue of music, it should be known that our beloved prophet, Muhammad, salallahu alayhi wa salaam, is recorded to have mentioned in Bukhari, the most authentic compilation after al-Qur’an, a time would come when some of the people among his followers would make halal what was decreed haraam, among these things were: men wearing silk, consumption of khamr, zinna and the playing of musical instruments. I’m one with particular fondness of music myself, but who am I, who are we, to muddle this hadith to justify regressing to our own lowly desires?
I believe in our heart of hearts we know that music is haraam. Most scholars agree it is even the tool of Shaitan to distract people from the remembrance of Allah.
Consider how music permeates in our hearts and throughout our bodies, whelming us with a sense of soothe and solace. But it is Allah who said what means that it is the Believers whose hearts find content in the recitation of the Qur’an. And music can influence and affect us to a point where we’ll actually prefer music over the Qur’an to content our hearts.
May we seek protection from Allah subanahu wa ta’ala from that and may we instead look forward to the the music Allah promised the abodes of Jannah which we can bet is far superior and pleasurable than any melody we can muster here in dunya.
Ameen ya Rabbil’alameen wa iyaaka.
After a rebuttle he came back to say:
As to other forms of music, they have been forbidden by our prophet salallahu ‘alayhi wa salaam not by any scholar, sheikh or imam, but Muhammad salallahu ‘alayhi wa salaam himself. So anyone having a problem with this as an issue, their problem obviously isn’t with me or anyone else. It’s impermissiblity goes beyond mere distraction, it inarguably has a way into the heart, attaching itself therein and subjecting one to addiction.
Bottom line, there are many reasons and explanations as to why the Prophet salallahu ‘alayhi wa salaam forbade it, but there is no excuse superior or worthy of submission than the very fact the Prophet salallahu ‘alayhi wa salaam forbade it in the first place.
Wallahu’alam
and a lil bit more here:
Know that Muhammad salallahu ‘alayhi wa salaam existed in a time and place many musical instruments, many of which we have today, were prevelant. Aside from this, Muhammad did not speak from his own desires or rule according to his own pleasure or displeasure, rather it was revelation from Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala as Allah himself mentioned in the Qur’an. This is the guidance we (should) follow unconditionally.
And it seems the fact the hadith quoted from which Muhammad salallahu ‘alayhi wa salaam forbade musical instruments is from Bukhari, the most authentic book after the Qur’an. So this is not as one said, a “dodgable” hadith. Let us humble ourselves , fear Allah and take heed brothers and sisters.
Wallahu ‘alam and may Allah guide us all. Ameen.
I have no idea who the brother is. But I thought his comment rocked!
I guess this is another one of those issues where I will “follow my own tune” as I find music comforting, a stress reliever and so relaxing. And if music is so haraam, I doubt that Mohammed Abdou could be viewed as such a loved musician and singer of Saudi Arabia. In fact he will be performing next year on behalf of and representing Saudi Arabia at the Arab Cultural Festival in Washington, DC.
I think music is so wonderful and amazing it must be a gift of beauty from God.
If you are looking for a second-hand-piano, when I was visiting a huge secondahand piano shop I noticed many russian pianos have a beautiful deep resonant sound.
It doesn’t matter what material is used for the keys, it’s the soundingboard and strings used which make the sound.
I suppose many older piano’s just have made a bit better.
Hi,
I read what you wrote about piano and how relaxing it is to play after a stressfull day, it’s really good to have a good music taste because, obviously, everyone now listens or plays music – even youth in Riyadh – so the quality really matters.
Like you, I like piano very much, but I have a lack in information how to buy one. I would like to know more about some stores who sell keyboards and pianos, if you can give me some information about dealers (like Yamaha, Casio,…) I would be very gratheful.
Thank you !
I agree Aafke. And do I dare say that the majority of Christian and Catholic religious services have a portion of the service dedicated to expressing love through music and song. And to me, many times how I hear the Quran being read sounds like a song.
Shaman – welcome! If you are in Saudi and specifically in Riyadh, the music shop at Al Fasiliyah seems to have an excellent selection of Yamaha and Casio keyboards. I’m sorry but I do not know much at all about electronic keyboards as I prefer the traditional piano where I’m responsible for the beauty (or lack thereof) of the sound!
This is why I found this point so pivatol,
“Consider how music permeates in our hearts and throughout our bodies, whelming us with a sense of soothe and solace. But it is Allah who said what means that it is the Believers whose hearts find content in the recitation of the Qur’an. And music can influence and affect us to a point where we’ll actually prefer music over the Qur’an to content our hearts.”
sounds like a weak person to me that would allow music to overrule faith. Sorry…this is just one of those areas where we will allow ourselves to agree to disagree.
I find it sort of sad that music is considered haram in KSA. And frankly… if one truly thinks that music is so influential that it would turn one away from their religion… then maybe one is not so secure in their beliefs. Just my PERSONAL OPINION. In Indonesia, they have the most beautiful music, and that is a mostly Muslim country. So I don’t get it.
Carol, I hope you can get a piano. And do you think I should try to check out that festival?
All I can say is haram or not every Muslim country I have been to (which have been plenty) I have seen muslims themselves enjoying and playing music without losing or comprising their faith.
And Monica, absolutely…the Arab cultural festival is an excellent event and I can assure you that this upcoming one will be among its finest
Music is not considered haram in Islam, drums and guitars are musical instruments which the Muslims played during the prophet’s time. When the prophet migrated to Madinah he was welcomed with a famous song performed using drums.
The ultra conservative clerics in Saudi have a very long list of things that they want us to believe are haram. They have a habit of forbidding everything that is beautiful in life. From enjoying music to romancing your wife with a Red Box of Chocolate. These people are weak and lack confidence in their faith. Most Saudis and Muslims do not agree with such perverted view of the religion. It is proven by how popular music is in the Arabic world.
Perhaps the transitory ex-pat community could be a source for a second-hand piano? I mean the ones who leave after a 2-5 year posting and
I would second that Muslims definitely do play instruments for their own pleasure and that of others. In my own acquaintance mainly guitar, piano, and traditional arab instruments. Not to mention the national orchestra’s of predominantly Muslim countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphony_orchestras; or, Daniel Barenboim’s wonderful efforts toward peace, and productive lives through the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, Palestinian Youth Orchestra, and Palestinian National Conservatory:
http://www.un.org/sg/mop/barenboim.shtml, and http://www.wrmea.com/archives/July_Aug_2004/0407050.html,
presumably with the agreement of the Arab nations involved, and the Palestinian Authority.
So buy a piano, and “Make a joyous noise unto the Lord/Allah” (It is afterall the same monotheistic Abrahamic God/Allah).
“I have no idea who the brother is. But I thought his comment rocked!”
The word Rocked comes from the popularity of Rock n’ Roll music. I think you should stop using it as it may be part of the influence of Al-Shitan.
Corrected:
Perhaps the transitory ex-pat community could be a source for a second-hand piano? I mean the ones who leave after a 2-5 year posting and prefer to sell their furniture.
I would second that Muslims definitely do play instruments for their own pleasure and that of others. In my own acquaintance mainly guitar, piano, and traditional arab instruments. Not to mention the national orchestra’s of predominantly Muslim countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphony_orchestras; including Oman http://www.omanet.om/english/oman2006/sec6b.pdf;
or, Daniel Barenboim’s wonderful efforts toward peace, and productive lives through the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, Palestinian Youth Orchestra, and Palestinian National Conservatory:
http://www.un.org/sg/mop/barenboim.shtml, and http://www.wrmea.com/archives/July_Aug_2004/0407050.html,
presumably with the agreement of the Arab nations involved, and the Palestinian Authority.
So buy a piano, and “Make a joyous noise unto the Lord/Allah” (It is afterall the same monotheistic Abrahamic God/Allah).
No problem, I just wanted to point out that it is not that Saudis made music haram. Contrary to popular belief there are a number of Sahih (Authentic) Hadeeth which clearly point to the fact that music, instruments, singing to the accompaniment of instruments etc. are prohibited by the Shari’ah.
Sahih Bukhari ‘there will be those of my Ummah who will seek to make lawful: fornication, the wearing of silk, wine drinking and the use of musical instruments..’ The words, ’seek to make lawful’, shows that music is not permissible. Furthermore the prohibition of music is mentioned along with major sins like drinking and fornication.
There is also no difference in schools of thought on this – all 4 Imams are unanimous that singing (under certain circumstances – there are exceptions)and instruments are haram. It is actually the weak in faith who follow there desires for the love of music. I once loved music but alhamduillah Allah has made this deen very easy for me to practice. i think Allah that the things that many have a hard time accepting in Islam were easy for me to accept. I had a really ‘good’ jahiliyah (preislam) and did not come to Islam because I was down and out struggling for a man or any other reason accept that Islam is the truth. So did my husband, but yet alhamduillah the ways of our past = no matter how endear were all left behind if it is not from Islam or prohibited in Islam. And yes I can hear a song and still no every single word and beat and will reminisce and all but I do not purposely listen to it. I’m not saying this to be self-righteous just to give others a glimpse of my past so they no this is not coming from some old prude. I’m actually a really cool gal
Saudi In U.S…you need to quit it!!!
I was an R&B girl (no rap music but a lil mild hip hop). Ok maybe in the 80s Duran Duran, Sting Rick Springstein…
One more thing. I guess Sadom and Gamora (Lot’s peeps) were right with their homosexuality if we are going to use majority rules as evidence and proof for stuff. Alhamduilah we have Islam. It’s just the way it is and it dpes not matter how many people do something or oppose something. when you start changing the religion to meet the desires of the people, the world political correctness or what ever than you start becoming a slave of those things and that is your master not allah. In Islam it does not matter where you are or what the majority are doing it des not change anything. So Muhammad Abdou and a zillion other Muslims openingly do haram does not make it haram. Let’s go back to that AUTHENTIC hadeeth I posted above and let us pick another haram. If Muslims start openingly rinking alcohol and loving how it makes them feel and claim it relaxes them…is it no longe haram? What about the other white meat…pork…if all the Muslims start eating it doex it make it halal?
Islam=Submission
I mean no offense with this comment but thus far if I am correct it has only been muslim reverts who have posted their objections to islam and music. What does that say or mean? And I ask this with intellectual curiousity; not trying to pick a fight or be disrespectful.
I remind you all as I remind myself:
16[116] And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: “This is lawful and this is forbidden,” so as to invent lies against Allâh. Verily, those who invent lies against Allâh will never prosper. [117] A passing brief enjoyment (will be theirs), but they will have a painful torment.
24[15] When you were propagating it with your tongues, and uttering with your mouths that whereof you had no knowledge, you counted it a little thing, while with Allâh it was very great.
17[36] And follow not (O man i.e., say not, or do not or witness not) that of which you have no knowledge. Verily! The hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each of those one will be questioned (by Allâh).
Again this is a reminder for myself, first.
I just don’t understand all this music beng haram stuff. Why then are there so many musicians who are Muslims? They actually make their living by making music. Aside from all the Middle Eastern musicians who are Muslim, there are also plenty of Western musicians who follow Islam like Kool and the Gang (the whole band) and Yusuf Islam (formerly known as Cat Stevens), just to name a couple. I admit there are some forms of music that I don’t care to listen to, but that’s my choice, just as it is my choice to continue to enjoy listening to music that I love. The world is a better place because of music in my opinion. I honestly don’t feel in my heart that God doesn’t want us to enjoy it.
99 Name of God indicate that God is Most Forgiving…Most Merciful…Most Loving ….Most Just…what ever good word there is God is that and God is the Most that there is…and we have God telling us the world is made for us…to enjoy while we are busy worshipping Him…and yet there are some Muslims that will limit our enjoyment of the world that God made by forbidding just about every damn thing that we can get any enjoyment out of…
no music…period
no colors…draws the eye (mostly for women)
no perfumes…draws men…only for women
no singing…laughing …dancing…
no writing of stories unless they are religious in nature
no no no no no
no nothing that could in anyway make someone feel good…make someone smile…make someone believe that the day is worth greeting as it will be spent enjoying life as God intended.
Some Muslims feel life should be quiet…bland…without smells…without music…without laughter (yes Ive heard Muslims say that laughter invites the shaitan…usually for women as well)…without color…without without without…
Where is God exhorting us to enjoy the world…enjoy what…we are so busy fobidding everything…pointing fingers at those that dare enjoy the “forbidden” contraband etc…that we cant even enjoy cordial conversation without going on rants about what we can or cannot “enjoy”…and God is forgotten even though His name comes up quite alot.
I believe in Gods 99 names and all those names are good…God wouldnt create such a beautiful world…such amazing things in it…and music is beautiful..then tell us we cant enjoy it. And please dont bring up alcohol…drugs…etc as we know KNOW those things are not good for us…music is a beautiful thing…and makes people feel beautiful..something other people rarely make u feel…
*rant over
UmmAdam,
It is unfortunate that you make every article and discussion into a religious debate and who can be a better Muslim and bring back the best quotes from clerics interpretations. This is a social not a religious blog after all.
In any event here is a link which present a different opinion on the topic:
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_351_400/is_music_prohibited_in_islam.htm
You can also Google the topic and find many similar ones.
Now to the comment:
“…the world political correctness or what ever than you start becoming a slave of those things……”
Don’t you think that is a wild assumption and a bit too judgmental of others?
American Bedu
Your years of diplomacy serve you well. Unless I am mistaken, only one contributor is concerned that music is haram. I mean no offense by this, and certainly do not want to target anyone, or challenge anyone’s faith practices. However, I quote myself from one of the other threads:
“It is a known phenomenon that converts [reverts] to any religion sometimes adopt the more restrictive view of that religion, either to get it right [so to speak], to satisfy an internal psychological need, or due to social pressure.
I mean no offense to anyone by this, but I do believe that Islam is a beautiful, tolerant religion of peace, which like all other religions can be selectively interpreted to a narrowed, divisive shadow of itself. Unfortunately, these days all too many people are willing to do so.”
There is great diversity within Islamic scholarship about the proper understanding, interpretation and application of the Qur’an and Hadith, including (most controversially?) about Lot’s peeps–though probably better not to go there on a post about music.
Chiara
Saudi in US
Thank you for the link which does indeed clarify matters.
I’m actually now enjoying sitting back and watching the direction of the comments. I guess I feel there is no need for me to necessarily speak out since I was pretty clear on my views of the discussion.
Music? No music?!! It just doesn’t make any sense. We make music (via singing, and some voices truly are a gift!!!), nature makes music, birds make music, the leaves on the tree make music when the wind gently brushes them, the crash of the surf against the beach is music. Pu-leese! I guess some (people who deem themselves so important they dare to tell others how to live their lives) just view life as sitting around, breathing, eating, and praying; and oh yea…judging those who don’t agree with their idea on how life should not be lead.
From my own experience, i believe that the salesmen that work in those instrument stores don’t know enough about musical instruments, but more about speakers and mixers. And i don’t think they panic about someone playing an instrument due to fear of it being heard by someone, saying this after many confrontations with them about that same issue, and trying whatever i want to in the end … just try it anyway
I am curious – do Saudi mothers of newborns sing to their children to get them to sleep or is that considered haram also?
Music…nothing like Vivaldi’s Four Seasons to help me clear up my desk; Brandenburg’s Concierto is another favorite.
I like YoYo Ma- I like cello and violin; my hubby- he’s the piano man- anything classical… But if its Arabic -definitely Mohamed Abdou; Abu Bakr Salim and Fairouz-
But my roots always call me back to a good guitarist for a “tablao”…
And yes like Bedu- I will agree to disagree on music- not to mention that it helps with math.
My kids when babies- were Bach babies-played it all the time for them…
Cest la vie!
I am one convert to Islam that is not an extremist and I do not think music is haram. I certainly think some of it is haram, but that isnt because I think God or the Prophet made a blanket ban on music, it is because of the subject matter of the music and the intent of the person who made it.
Like I have said elsewhere, everything can be haram. Even religious extremism, as pointed out in hadith, is seen as haram.
Some people have this view of Islam, and other religions, that honestly just makes one want to run yelling and screaming from all religion. I know these people, usually converts, think they are doing something good for their religion, but they are not.
They actually turn far more people away from their religion than they turn to it. I guess we can call them the “anti Dawah” types, but what is sad is they seem not to know just how repulsive their actions are.
I worked with one brother for years and I never saw him smile once. He was such a miserable man in every way you could imagine, yet he talked as if he was God’s gift to Islam.
I think those people that are like this, that turn people off of Islam, will have to pay a price to God for every person they turned away from God because of their holier than thou attitude.
For these folkers, the more “holier than thou” one is, the more pious they think they are. And, of course, they’ll tell that that no one could be turned away from Islam unless God wanted it so. Another way in which they almost comit shirk because they think everything they do is mandated by God.
Too much.
Carol,
I agree with you about the piano. My favourite is a short one, “Aria” from Bach’s Goldberg Variations. There is nothing more sublime that that piece of music, and it inspires me to think of God and His greatness. Who could listen to that and doubt there is a God?
Irish Eyes,
Saudi mothers do sing to their children to get them to sleep. My wife does and she learned it from her mother, both sides of her family from Mecca.
“Na’ami, Na’ami Ya Habibi” is how the song starts.
Music being banned in Islam is not agreed upon by clerics, and in practice it is ignored everywhere, even in Saudi. Keep in mind even the sword dance done by the most backwards of the Bedu Saudi is done to poetry chanted to a beat for the dance. Music and poetry? Some would drop dead with religious offence, but royal family is known for it.
Can you tell me what is the significance of saying only converts believe music to be haram? Surely you can’t believe that. It defies common sense from the post itself. Obviously there are muslims from muslim countries who do believe music to be haram, even though they are now probably in the minority. And even if only converts thought music to be haram? What exactly would that signify to you Carol? I personally know plenty of muslims, from muslim countries (hubby is one) who believe music to be haram, Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania, Syria and on and on. Maybe they tend to be the more conversative (or in some opinions extreme) and less cultural.
Also one thing that confuses me. As muslims, we are supposed submit to Allah’s will in everything. It’s one thing to argue that hadith don’t forbid all music, its quite another to just say it’s beautiful and I like it so it must be good. Well that makes everything halal based on opinion. What do muslim musicians have anything to do with whether something is haram or not?
WOW, this is amazing
I think the only thing Ummadam wanted to point out was that saudi didnt make certain types of music Haraam Islam did.
The fact is people will say music is haram or not haram Depending on their school of thought ……Period.
Like all faiths there are certain people that follow a more strict form of a religion and there are people that follow a more loser form.
take a baptist and an holiness person. Both are Christian, they have the same basic beliefs BUT they differ in what some would say is or is not a sin. To a (apostolic) holliness person a woman in pants is a sin but to a baptist it is not. To a holliness person listenign to music is a sin (unless it is church music) to a Baptist it is not the same. This is the same thing is Islam.
No reason to bash or think anything is wrong with that way of thinking. It is what is right for them.. in THEIR relationship with God….
The fact is most comments here are just opinion…….because you have not studied Islam enough to tell a person what is or is not right in a faith that you do not practice. and no one other than Ummadam gave any religous reason to support a different view……so to say something is NOT harram and not be able to back it up with proof…..is just an opinion.
There are many Muslims from all over the world that will say music is haram not only converts. There are also many coverts that think music is allowed.
I am muslim, been Muslim my whole life and I listen to music btu I have many family members that dont. I wont say it is or is not haraam because I have heard arguements that go both ways….BUT…….There is no way I would say just becuase there are many Arabs that do something ……that something is halal…………come on people when does being Arab = the standard on what Islam is based.
Yes there are Arabs that sing, dance, and play instruiments………there are also many that smoke and dont see it as being haraam either.
All I am saying is just because you see it does not mean it is right or halal.
I personally didn’t have a problem with Ummadam’s initial comment. But the repeated harping about music being haram kind of got annoying. We get it. You think music is haram. No need to post 7 comments all stating the same exact thing. It get’s old really really fast.
I will agree with LLALI in that I disagree about this notion that converts to a religion will become more conversative/fundo than people born into a religion. From people I’ve met personally and what I’ve read on the blogosphere I think there are equal number from both groups that can get all crazy about religion.
I do think, however, that people who lead crazy lives to one extreme before they converted to a given religion will also take their new found religion to the same extremes they took their previous life. Some people truly are incapable of moderating anything in their life, whether it be music, religion, or any other lifestyle choice they choose to practice.
I think these types of people know they have zero self control and are very insecure about this so they feel the obsessive need to go around branding anything that could be fun or entertaining as a giant sin and at the same time project their insecurities about themselves onto others and the way they practice their faith or anyother lifestyle choice. And that concludes my psychobabble
Until now, there is no unity on the issue whether music is halal or haram. Everyone has his or her say of this matter and it is true that music can make us forget of Allah at times, I’m of the view that excessive listening of music to the point of forgetting Allah is haram.
I’m also curious about those pop musicians, rappers, singers who sing in praise of Allah. What about them? Is it haram for them too? Because I’m a fan of this Indonesian group by the name of DEBU (dust) where they use various musical instruments, singing in praise of Allah. The lyrics they sing goes back to basics, praises of Him and His Prophet and focusing mainly on His creation and all things related to Him.
These are just my 2 cents worth of opinion and Allah knows best.
Music until now is a deabeatable issue in Islam. There are scholars that consider it as haram, some as makrooh(undesirable), and still others set conditions: as long as it doesn’t deviate the teachings of Islam or doesn’t express worship to anything other than Allah Subhana wa Taala, or as long as it doesn’t promote evil talks.
Basing from the Translation of the meanings of the Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari, by Dr. Muhammad Mushsin Khan:
Narrated by Ubai bin Ka’b: when the prophet(pbuh) was asked, “What kinds of poetry, Rajaz(kind of a poetrical metre) and Hida(chanting of camel driver, keeping time to the camels’ paces) are allowed and what kinds thereof are disliked; the Prophet(pbuh) answered: “Some poetry contains wisdom.”
and I quote: It is dislike for one to indulge in poetry to the extent that it diverts him from Allah’s remembrance and from (religious) knowledge, and from the (recitation of) the Quran.
Narrated Ibn Umar: The prophet(pbuh) said: It is better for a man to fill the inside of his body with pus than to fill it with poetry.”
how unutterably backwards must someone be to insist or believe that music is bad and should reasonably be banned or accepted as banned. I mean, seriously. Why doesn’t the intelligent ‘majority’ in this country just refuse to put up with this stupidity any longer? Makes me want to plunk a keyboard down in the middle of the highway and play mozart just to pick a fight.
Bedu, it’s a wise person who knows the difference between faith and the quran. I can believe (and do..many things) without putting blind faith into an object for my spiritual fulfillment. It’s the love of an object (over the faith) that causes different faiths to kill each other, despite believing in the same ultimate truth.
While I agree with much of what has been stated by others, in (indirect) response to some of the comments made here, I would like to emphasize that my earlier postings specified “sometimes” regarding converts/reverts to Islam or any other religion; that the national orchestras of “predominantly Muslim nations” include those of Iran and Turkey; and, that the reference to “Arab nations” is an accurate reflection of those collaborating with Barenboim’s musical peace initiatives. In the scholarship debate, it would seem that excessiveness regarding all music, and the inappropriateness of some types of music are key.
Once again, I certainly mean no offense to anyone, and do not challenge anyone else’s faith practices.
Interesting discussion!
Ok I’m sitting here picturing Umm Adam listening to Duran Duran music.. and I can’t stop laughing. Ya’ll don’t realize just how funny that is.. and did you say Sting?? And Springsteen??? RFLOL.. your such a white girl
And in addition to that Ms Chiara, let’s take into consideration that again and again we have to respect that majority of arab culture and traditions are based on islam. Thereby, we can also say that some or maybe a few, just like any other culture had modifications and alterations which was handed down by forefathers from generation to generation, and held on to that practice (ex. music) making us fundamentalists or extremists as they say.
But going back to the basics: The basis of Islam, our religion is the Noble Quran and Hadiths of our Prophet(pbuh) the Sahih Al-Bukhari, other than that it’s deviation or modification. And as stated, there are good things and there are bad things, there are good music and there are bad music.
This epitomizes how silly all organized religion is. Except for Tarvuism!
I was reading The New York Times and came across this article on one Muslim convert’s renewal of his faith, and that of his Muslim-born readers, by writing an underground novel “The Taqwacores”. It has inspired a Muslim punk rock subculture based on the lifestyle of the novel, and now a film.
Young Muslims Build a Subculture on an Underground Book
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/us/23muslim.html?bl&ex=1230181200&en=4637c51b4c895cd8&ei=5087
Two excerpts:
The novel is “The Catcher in the Rye” [classic American coming of age novel] for young Muslims, said Carl W. Ernst, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Springing from the imagination of Michael Muhammad Knight, it inspired disaffected young Muslims in the United States to form real Muslim punk bands and build their own subculture.
[...]At school, her Koran teacher threw chalk at her for requesting literal translations of the holy book, Ms. Arzay said. After she was expelled from two Muslim schools, her uncle gave her “The Taqwacores.”
“This book is my lifeline,” Ms. Arzay said. “It saved my faith.”
Which just proves that…all roads lead back to American Bedu? , one should only buy a piano if one intends to play “Muslim punk rock”, music of whatever style is good if it leads to restoration of faith?
Chiara
Sometime pianist, woefully ignorant about punk rock
@Monica – You said And frankly… if one truly thinks that music is so influential that it would turn one away from their religion… then maybe one is not so secure in their beliefs. Just my PERSONAL OPINION. In Indonesia, they have the most beautiful music, and that is a mostly Muslim country. So I don’t get it.
Allaah says in Soorat Luqmaan (interpretation of the meaning):
“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Do you then wonder at this recitation (the Qur’aan)?
And you laugh at it and weep not,
Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing)”
[al-Najm 53:59-61]
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“[Allaah said to Iblees:] And befool them gradually those whom you can among them with your voice (i.e. songs, music, and any other call for Allaah’s disobedience)…”[al-Israa’ 17:64]
So, it is not about what anyone thinks – it’s about what Allah and His Messenger said. If a Muslim takes his religion seriously, then this is sufficient for him.
@Kalimaat: You said Music is not considered haram in Islam, drums and guitars are musical instruments which the Muslims played during the prophet’s time. When the prophet migrated to Madinah he was welcomed with a famous song performed using drums.
Could you please show us saheeh isnaads going back to these Sahaabah and Taabi’een, proving that they used any instruments with the exception of the daff – without any rings (i.e., a hand-drum which looks like a tambourine, but without any rattles) ?
@Carol: You said I mean no offense with this comment but thus far if I am correct it has only been muslim reverts who have posted their objections to islam and music. What does that say or mean? And I ask this with intellectual curiousity; not trying to pick a fight or be disrespectful.
No offense taken. With all due respect I don’t think it means much. Personal opinion is worthless. One of our eminent scholars, Ibn al Qayyim al-Jawzeeyah stated, “Knowledge is what Allaah says, what the Prophet says, and what the Companions say.”
Therefore, in light of the above, one must, be knowledgable in whatever he is inviting the people to. You have no proof to what you say. This is why it is so important for people to have proper Islamic knowledge before they start giving opinions.
@BCIS: You said Music? No music?!! It just doesn’t make any sense. We make music (via singing, and some voices truly are a gift!!!), nature makes music, birds make music, the leaves on the tree make music when the wind gently brushes them, the crash of the surf against the beach is music. Pu-leese! I guess some (people who deem themselves so important they dare to tell others how to live their lives) just view life as sitting around, breathing, eating, and praying; and oh yea…judging those who don’t agree with their idea on how life should not be lead.
1. I have not seen anybody being judged in this thread accept for me. I am a Muslim, Carol is a Muslim and regardless to if this is a religious blog or not – Islam and Muslims are discussed and judged on here. As a muslim I will not blurk on her blog while misconceptions and false information about Islam is spread.
2. Interesting how religious people are viewed as extreme yet it is perfectly acceptable for you to take statements and blow them totally out of proportion! If you are going to debate this than be fair. Nowhere did you read anything about natural sounds being haram. Anyway we have Islam and you have whatever – so to you be your way.
@Abu Sinan: You said Music being banned in Islam is not agreed upon by clerics, and in practice it is ignored everywhere, even in Saudi.
All four Imams (’Aimma) are in agreement that music with musical instruments is haram and this happens to be the majority opinion. If we are going to stick to a very small minority to make it permissible to use musical instruments, then be it, but we should keep in mind that when we face Allah on the Day of Judgement we will have to answer to Him.
@LLALI: Funny thing is that you and I have personally discussed this on the telephone, so you could hear my tone. Did I come off as high and mighty, self-righteous, Holier than Thou or judgemental? Mind you this was way before this blog discussion. I discuss Islam on the internet and in real life because it is my way of life. It doesn’t mean that I go around ‘making everything’ haram. I’d be afriad to make things haram that Allah made halal and vice versa. Rather what I do is pass on what I have read of what Allah and His Messenger said. I guess people can not come right out and say”who cares what Allah and His Messenger say I am going to do what I want to do anyway!” So instead they play games and say that religious fanatics make everything haram.
@Tulip: You said: I do think, however, that people who lead crazy lives to one extreme before they converted to a given religion will also take their new found religion to the same extremes they took their previous life. Some people truly are incapable of moderating anything in their life, whether it be music, religion, or any other lifestyle choice they choose to practice.
I think these types of people know they have zero self control and are very insecure about this so they feel the obsessive need to go around branding anything that could be fun or entertaining as a giant sin and at the same time project their insecurities about themselves onto others and the way they practice their faith or anyother lifestyle choice.
That’s an interesting observation. I had similar thoughts to how some people come to a religion. I’ve seen people embrace religions after having nowhere else to run – so to speak. However, I can assure you that I have a pretty healthy and balanced past and present. I can not reinterate enough that I am not branding anything as a sin. Do not shoot the proverbial Messenger. I – unlike the ones in support of Music have only said what Allah and His Messenger have said. So if you want to analyse this acuurately it would be those who follow their desires and whims and whatever else shaytaan beautifes from this world – as the ones who “have zero self control and are very insecure about this so they feel the obsessive need to go around branding anything that could be fun or entertaining as a giant sin and at the same time project their insecurities about themselves onto others and the way they practice their faith or anyother lifestyle choice.” Really, think about it…
@Nzingha – that was a mistake. I didn’t mean Bruce Springsteen, I meant Rick Springfield… the doctor on General Hospital. My sister was obsessed with him and on her side of the room had him plastered everywhere and I had M.J all over mine.
In conclusion (he he he…yeah right) we should all strive to learn our Islam from the Book of our Lord and the Sunnah of our Prophet.
reading all the various comments I can see that this is a topic many of us may agree to disagree and have differing perspectives.
As everyone I believe is pretty aware, I do not promote this as a religious blog by any means although have no objection when/if religious aspects enter into discussions since religion is integrated in so many phases of Saudi life. However, I do post on my experiences and observations and ironically whether one determines whether music is haram or not, music stores with instruments, CD’s, tapes, etc., are allowed in both the large malls and small souks. I don’t know…to me, that seems to say something on the view of music in Saudi Arabia…I mean if it were crystal clear that it is haram and not allowable then I would think such stores would have been banned similar to pork or alcohol products… just my own two cents worth here.
Carol, I realize this about your blog. As a matter of fact this long diatrbe of mine was not to tll you not to play the piano nor to deny that music is available in Saudi and that many Muslims listen to it. I was merely letting you know the basis of why there are Saudis that say music is haram. It seems as though many think that a bunch of misrable men are just sittng around waiting to make life miserable for everyone – when that wasn’t the case…O.K I’ve made my point already about that…now I’m rambling.
With that said what you have just described in your last paragraph is what I call ‘ The difference between the Islamic concept of Halal/Haram and The Saudi concept of Aadee/Aaybe’ Maybe I’ll blog about it, insha’Allah. Nonetheless, Islamically the halal and the haram are clear. What some Saudis do that is aadee (the culture norm like lying and we all know that’s haram) and what they avoid that is aaybe (culturally shameful) is not based on their adherence to Islam or consciousness of Allah. Rather it based on the philosophy of ‘Monkey see Monkey do’ (aadee/normal) or ‘What will my people say/think/do if they knew I did this/that?’ (aaybe/shameful).
I’m repeating myself I know but again…if Saudi Arabia is viewed as the heart of Islam and music stores are allowed to operate in Saudi Arabia (to include in Makkah) then to me that makes a big statement on the official view of music in the Kingdom. If it were decreed haram then you can be sure the muttawa would be having a grand time shutting down stores and prohibiting sound.
I feel I must point out, to those that might not be aware, that Umm Adam’s quotes of The Qur’an are nothing more than “understandings”. The sections in parenthesis were added by the person making the translation/understanding, they are NOT the word of God. It is one person’s understanding of what he THINKS God means.
So when she quoted:
“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]
The portion “i.e. music, singing” is NOT the word of God, again, it is the thoughts and ideas of the person who translated this portion of The Qur’an, nothing more.
That is why, honestly, it is important to be able to read The Qur’an in it’s original Arabic, so you dont have to rely on understandings/translations where humans add their own thoughts in between the words of God.
As a matter of fact, I find that practice rather offensive. As if they can provide a more complete sentence or thought than God? Again, this is a case where those “holier than thou” often border on shirk in their zeal.
I much more prefer, if you have to read it in a language other than Arabic, that footnotes are added, rather than the practice of inserting words and phrases into the word of God.
It really bugs me when people claim to have a stranglehold on the truth, as if they have the absolute truth and answer to everything and everyone who doesnt agree with them is wrong.
This dogmatic and insensitive approach is not one that Prophet (PBUH) would have used, or did use. People so worried about the Sunnah should try to practice a bit more on basic manners and not loose the forest for the trees.
Umm Maaly, you write:
“And in addition to that Ms Chiara, let’s take into consideration that again and again we have to respect that majority of arab culture and traditions are based on islam. Thereby, we can also say that some or maybe a few, just like any other culture had modifications and alterations which was handed down by forefathers from generation to generation, and held on to that practice (ex. music) making us fundamentalists or extremists as they say.”
Having spent a lot of time in Muslim countries and traveling in the Muslim world I think you have it backwards. The majority of Arabic culture is nothing more than Arabic culture that has come from pre-Islamic times. It is the minority of Arabic culture that is based on Islam.
See, this is a MAJOR problem in the Arabic world that people assume that because it happens in a “Muslim country” is must be Islamic. Nothing could be farther from the truth. That is why so many people have to sit around blogs like this and point out all of the awful aspects of Arabic culture that are NOT Islamic, ie women not driving, honour killings, genital mutilation, wasta, corruption, autocratic and murderous leaders.
Thank God that Arabic culture is about 95 pre(non)-Islamic nonsense and only 5% Islamic. Muslims around the world would have a very hard time trying to justify the other 95% of traditions in the Arabic world.
PS,
I wonder what people here would think if I did this:
“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. blogs, online conversation) to mislead (men and women) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]
It is the same thing. I wonder if anyone here who thinks music is haram can explain or justify their hours spent online in “idle talks”? Of course, any justification you use must be equally used for music, hence if you say you are working to spread Islam or understanding of Allah, then you must accept that the same could be said for music.
How about this:
“Do you then wonder at this recitation (the Qur’aan)?
And you laugh at it and weep not,
Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (blogging, online).”
Of course, if you justify your “wasted” time online or blogging by pointing to God, Dawah or the like, you must accept the same justifications for music.
Someone who spends hours and hours online is certainly NOT in a position to talk about how others spend their time.
Abu Sinan, I think your comments have stirred up the pot but I do very much look forward to the continued discussions your comments are sure to raise!
I agree with American Bedu that the official response of a country that concerns itself with its Islamic identity would give some indication of the degree of prohibitedness of certain Islamic practices. That was part of my point about national orchestras of predominantly Muslim countries. National orchestras, especially where power is centralized, usually receive official approval, which presumably would be withheld in self-consciously Islamic countries (eg. Morocco, Jordan where the King is simultaneously the keeper of the faith, by right/claim of descent from the Prophet Mohamed; Saudi Arabia where the King is the keeper of the Two Holy Sites, etc.) if music were unequivocally haraam. The other part of my point was that the orchestras are full of Muslim musicians, not all of whom, nor the parents who fostered their talents, surely can be misguided–as best illustrated by the national orchestra of Oman which from the beginning only recruited national Omanis.
Thank you Abu Sinan for your clarifications. While I was fully aware of the issue of interpretation/understandings, I wasn’t sure I understood Umm Maaly’s comment with its inherent contradictions. That said, in your final comment, I hope you meant that of the “nonsense” that exists in Arab culture 95% is ethnic and 5% Islamic. I do think there is much of value in Arab culture, as there is in many others.
Oops ! One Abu Sinan comment behind. Off to do something non-idle!
Chiara,
You are right. I value Arabic culture, I am married to an Arab and I am rather into Arabic music. I am sitting here listening to a piece from Marcel Khalife sung by Oumayma al Khalil. The song is “Deema” and it is a great song.
My main point was that Arabic culture and Islam have very little in common and it is sad that the most excessive parts of it get blamed on Islam. To try and claim, as the poster did, that most of Arabic culture comes from Islam is just simply not true.
It is a travesty that some Arabs, or people from any Muslim country, confuse their own culture and traditions with Islam. The majority of the time the stuff trying to be passed off as “Islamic” or “Muslim” has nothing to do with the religion.
It would be like an American claiming that because the USA is a Christian country, that the tradition here is based on Christianity.
Culture in LA holds no more to Christianity than culture in Amman and Jeddah holds to Islam.
Chiara,
I hope you dont plan to be idle by listening to music. Whereas being idle on a blog seems to be okay, you’re sure to be damned for a bit of Beethoven.
};>)
Umm Adam- I know who you meant, I’ve had “jessies girl” ringing in my head all night
I just can’t picture it at all.
Abu Sinan- nothing idleness about my blogging!!
Abu Sinan,
Oh dear–I must confess I replaced my blog- commenting idleness with–gulp–purposeful walking of the–wait for it–dog! We both need the exercise and the gods (non-Islamic, I know) are conspiring to bury us in snow shortly. I do hope it helps that no saliva flew anywhere (see American Bedu’s post on blindness and guide dogs, if this fails to strike you as funny), and that the dog in question is my canine niece. While I am in confessional mode I must admit to Beethoven as being a favorite.
Now that I have returned to blog- commenting idleness, I do agree with the substance of your post.
Chiara
PS We met a guide dog in training on the walk–a wonderful, large, friendly, rambunctious puppy, in dire need of more training, but with an excellent handler.
I have to agree with Carol about the muttawa coming down hard on musical instrument stores etc if it was considered a “fact” that playing and listening to music is haram…without exception.
For heaven sake, it isnt haram for women to drive…and yet the muttawa will catch women driving if they can…and punish them…among other things…so why not go around beating up those that would dare open up music stores if its in fact haram?…hmmm?
just a thought
Chiara, there is actually a Jeddah based heavy-metal girl band: The Accolade
http://www.myspace.com/accoladeofficial
I don’t think in KSA culture is based on Islam, I think by now Islam in KSA is based on ancient and obsolete pre-islamic bedouin culture.
I have been thinking about this issue.
Using my God-given brain.
So from a cosmic point of view; God, merciful, compassionate and all-knowing, creates a planet full of beauty and delights for a chosen species to live in (with the reservation: ”chosen” according to some members of the species themselves)
These creatures are made by God in such a way that they have eyes to see all the beauty of the planet, ears to hear all the sounds in the airwaves, and most importantely, a brain which is constructed so as to have an appreciation for all God has given, and hearts made to be uplifted by beauty, music, and to love…
God made these creatures with the power to make art, to compose music, to write poetry, to imagine stories, to love all of creation.
And then some supercilious creatures tell, no command! the others to believe that God wishes for all creatures to ignore what God has made, and has made possible.
To look with disdain at the gifts God has given, to look with contempt at God’s creation, to dissaprove and scorn all which was placed before them.
Not to praise God for the creation of all thing good and beautiful, but to show contempt derision and hatred for all God’s great gifts.
I don’t buy it.
I wil never believe it.
More over, I think it’s a sin to scorn God and God’s creation.
I think people who want to draw us away from appreciating God’s creation are posessed by the devil. I think it’s shaytan’s most effective ruse to counteract God.
This whole, “Allah made it beautiful so it must be endulged in” does not Islamically flow…know what I mean? Allah tells us He is Pure, Loving, and absolutely Just in every respect. He says He is the Best of Judges. He also tells us the life we are in here is a test. He has created everything existing and He created whatever happens as well. There is nothing in this existence except what He has created. He also says in the Quran He created evil (although He is not evil). He is using this as one of the many tests for us. The Quran is very clear on this issue:
*Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: “We believe,” and will not be tested.
*And We indeed tested those who were before them. And Allah will certainly make (it) known (the truth of) those who are true, and will certainly make (it) known (the falsehood of) those who are liars, (although Allah knows all that before putting them to test).
Every person who claims to be a true Muslim will be tested and tried by Allah. Perhaps avoiding music, no matter how beautiful it is, because Allah and His Messenger said so – you know SUBMITTING YOUR WILL TO THE WILL OF ALLAH is a test? Why wouldn’t it be? Adam and Hawwa were tested by Allah and Tempted by shaytaan. Was not the forbidden tree made alluring to them? Did not Allah create such a tree? Were they not warned to stay away from that tree? As Muslims, we believe that Satan is an avowed enemy who spares no effort to mislead and divert humans from the right path of salvation and eternal bliss. Therefore, it is our duty to be aware of this fact and always resort to Allah and to take refuge in Him from Satan and his whispers.
Iblis knows that his destination is the Fire, and he hopes to take everyone else with him to Hell, out of envy, hatred, disbelief and stubbornness. It is those very same obstinate and rebellious traits I see in many of the people who slander and mock ‘religious’ people. By all means – indulge yourselves!
@Abu Sinan: When I first discovered the Muhsan Khan translation of the Quran I was thrilled. True all the brackets and parentheses are not reader friendly but I do my research and saw that what was in the parenthesis were not the opnion or the intrepretation of the translator. rather they are taken from authentic narrations of how the Prophet explained those verses and how the sahaba understood them. I’ve also read other translations – the ones with footnotes and the most popular being Yusuf Ali…and those footnotes are best avoided because they lack authentic proofs. I personally prefer the saheeh International translation and then will look up the explanation of the verse using reliable sources and allah Knows Best. However, I chose to use those translation so that others were aware that individuals are not pullling these rulings out of a hat and are trying to follow their religion. The people of desires have yet to present any supporting evidence that music is permitted and we know all things are halal until proven haram and the strongest evidence supports music being haram.
Allaah says in Soorat Luqmaan (interpretation of the meaning):
“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]
The scholar of the ummah, Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: this means singing. Mujaahid (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this means playing the drum (tabl). (Tafseer al-Tabari, 21/40).
Al-Hasan al-Basri (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this aayah was revealed concerning singing and musical instruments (lit. woodwind instruments). (Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/451).
Al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this includes all manner of haraam speech, all idle talk and falsehood, and all nonsense that encourages kufr and disobedience; the words of those who say things to refute the truth and argue in support of falsehood to defeat the truth; and backbiting, slander, lies, insults and curses; the singing and musical instruments of the Shaytaan; and musical instruments which are of no spiritual or worldly benefit. (Tafseer al-Sa’di, 6/150)
Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The interpretation of the Sahaabah and Taabi’in, that ‘idle talk’ refers to singing, is sufficient. This was reported with saheeh isnaads from Ibn ‘Abbaas and Ibn Mas’ood.
Taken from Quranic verses which indicate the prohibition of music
by Abu Bilal Mustafa al-Kanadi
Ibn Jareer At-Tabari, in his Jaami’ul Bavaan, mentions that the interpreters of the Quraan differed as to the meaning of the term “lahwal hadeeth” (idle talk) which occurs in the above-quoted verse. Their views regarding its meaning can be formulated into three basic categories.
The first category defines the term “lahwal hadeeth”: (a) singing and listening to songs, (b) the purchasing of professional male or female singers and (c) the purchase of instruments of amusement; namely, the drum (tabl). The elements of this category revolve around reference to the blameworthy usage of instruments of idle amusement, in short, music and song. This view was held by a number of companions such as Ibn Mas’ood, Jaabir and Ibn Abbaas. It is related that the former was questioned regarding the meaning of the verse under discussion to which he replied, “I swear by the One other than Whom there is no god that it refers to singing [ghinaa]“; he repeated it three times to emphasize his position. [14 ]It is related that Ibn Abbaas said it referred to “singing and the like.” [15 ]Jaabir is reported to view its meaning to signify singing and listening to songs. [16 ]This general view pointing to censure of music and song was also held by a great number of taabi’een, such as Ikrimah, Mujaahid, Mak-hooi and Umar bin Shu’ayb, to name only a few. For details, see the tafseer of Ibn Katheer, vol. 6, p. 33 Ai-Qurtubi’s Al-Jaami’. vol. 14, pp. 51-53 and As-Suyooti’s Ad-Durr Al-Manthoor. vol. 5, pp. 158-160.
As far as your blogging example being concerned , according to Ibn Abbaas, the voice mentioned in the verse refers to every form of invitation which calls to disobedience to Allah, the Exalted. Blogging could be ‘considered’ a voice but technically it isn’t a voice so one would be wrong to include it in their translation of the quran. However, it is an excellent analogy! Certainly if they only devote themselves avidly to idle and foul talk, empty amusements and all other false works and deeds whose purposes are.to turn others away from Allah’s path and to make it the butt of mockery.
Now I will take the scholarly concensus of the ‘inheritors of the Prophets’ over the opinions, whims and desires of ignoramouses whose soul purpose is to pass judgement on those who actually try to adhere to their religion by fearing Allah in all that they do.
Take a break from reading the loooooong repetitive messages from ummadam and enjoy one of the best Arabic music pieces (40 secs into the video).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFBdbVnRvbU
Ummadam, when you get a chance pick up a dictionary and look up the word “obsessive”. Sorry, I am going to call it as I see it with you from now on, since you asked us not to be politically correct.
Peace…
“many think that a bunch of misrable men are just sittng around waiting to make life miserable for everyone – when that wasn’t the case…”
Frankly, I think this probably is the case. Some insanely jealous and insecure husband didn’t like the attention/ appreciation for his wife’s beauty, so he forced her to cover herself. Some uptight, bitter, miserable old man didn’t like drums or guitar, so he found a way to make it forbidden. Generally when a beautiful good thing is restricted, it’s because some miserable man (person) has a rod up their end.
I like watching how people who call themselves pious in their own right will defend their beliefs to the death.
I knew I was going to enjoy all the comments that came in while I decided to catch up on some sleep! I think I am just going to continue to sit back and enjoy the dialogues!
[...] shared with my husband last night an online discussion that I was involved in. He read the blog and all the comments in utter disgust. He said that the people in that discussion were clear examples of ‘Bad [...]
@saudi In Us- i have a B.A in Psychology no I am well aware of what ‘obsessive’ is. When you get a chance look up Walaa’ and Baraa’ .
Because music, art, and love can bring you closer to God, the devil is very keen to get these forms of art banned
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=LJEfyZSvg5c&feature=related
Ummadam,
Having spent time at your blog, and other “Salafi” minded blogs, I think one word would describe much of what happens at these blogs: fitna.
Not only is blogging, almost by definition “idle time” many blogs have as almost their sole by product “fitna”.
I have gone to blogs like this and seen not only days, but weeks and months of raging arguments, personal insults, fakfir and the like over what most sane people would think the most trivial of issues.
Unlike music that I can listen to whilst I work, when I am at the gym, driving, or doing most anything, blogging is at it’s base an idle past time. There is no way one can honestly blast music as being idle time spent and at the same time be a blogger.
Such an attempt would certainly be a mark of hypocrisy, and of course we know the Prophet hated hypocrisy above all.
Think about that when you spend lengthy periods of time cutting and pasting from sites you found on google, or whatever search engine it is that you found.
Your wasted time here, idle time, is no different (maybe even worse) than someone listening to music. Yet you have no problem calling someone out on music whilst ignoring your own very wasted idle time here and at your own blog.
I find it interesting that you try to justify your own vice with the words of scholars and others. I think that is one of the main problems in the Islamic world today: trying to outlaw or make forbidden for others, whilst doing your best to justify your own sin.
I know it isnt a hadith, but it is good advise (naseeha) none the less:
“Physician, heal thyself”.
Abu Sinan, why are you making this a personal attack instead of addressing the issue? If yu have a position then state it with daleel and stop coming at me with nonsense. Allah has addressed this type of behavior in His Book and it aint desirable.
It doesn’t matter if I blog or listen to music. I haven’t comdemned anyone. I’ve simply stated the Islamic position. You are not exposing me, if you go to my archives and read my very first blog then I said myself that I feared that bloging could be considered idle. I never tried to justify my ‘vice’. I agreed with what you said but you were so quick to pojnt out the error of my ways that you didn’t see it.
Let me tell you something, i could be the biggest drucken whore in the world and that would not change the fact that both alcohol and fornication are prohibited in Islam. The difference is that i would not go around blogging and bragging about my sins and calling everybody to them and then attacking the people who call to the truth. As a matter of fact I welcome constructive criticism and both my husband and I have been disappointed as converts by Muslims who wanted to sugar coat the religion and make it easy on us by not correctly conveying knowledge of the deen. My husband went to make wudu and pray with some brothers at the time of the prayer to be smiled at like a silly child and told not to worry about it, just sit, eat and drink while they prayed! You think that’s helpful?!
I posted verses from the Quran and hadeeth – none which have have disputed (openly – perhaps in your heart), but you keep passing judgement on me. This is the typical in denial rhetoric of those with guilty consciouces. If you have a problem with what I have said the take it up with Allah because as you mentioned all I did was cut and paste.
By the way…My points were not about idle time, my main concern has always been about submitting, hearing and obeying, returning all disagreements to Allah and His Messenger. Idle time was not my point. Just as I do not say wear hijab because it is modest or marry other women because they need husbands or or or or! Those are smaller issues…I always try to bring out the big picture. That we do it because we are ordered to or we avoid it because it is prohibited…the reasoning is secondary to me.
annnnnd another thing! i am not here trying to convince anybody to give up music..do yo thing. i attempted to clearify things and now things have been made abundantly clear to me….Allah created heaven and hell and he created people to inhabit them both…nuff said.
http://ummadam.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/hello-world/
From my very first blog entry:
Therefore, my first post will, insha’Allah, serve as a post of my intention, a reminder for us all to turn away from pointless talk, and a call for naseehah if anyone sees transgression on my part. The prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) said, “Majority of a person’s sins emanate from his tongue.” (and the pen or writing is regarded as “tongue”).
From the beginning to the end of that entry, you will see that I posted the same proof and definition of idle speech, warned against it, sought refuge from it, and asked that my fellow brothers and sisters in islam pull back if they see me transgression…so Abu Sinan there is no hypocracy here. We all sin and if you think I am doing wrong then I appreciate all sincere advice.
Um Adam,
I dont really see this as a “personal issue”. You have stated what YOU think the Islamic position is. That is just it, what YOU and some others think. It is not an agreed upon position. If so music and the sales of instruments wouldnt be an accepted fact in Saudi as well as the rest of the “Islamic” world.
You have stated what you think is the Islamic position. Not everyone agrees with you. My point was to ask you exactly what is the difference between music and blogging? If you think music is haram and blogging is halal, upon what do you base that? When you state that something is “haram” then by extension you most certainly are condemning everyone who does it. Do you fail to see that?
I guess you didnt read my previous post, but it is clear that I most certainly DID dispute what you were passing off as the meanings of The Qur’an. You and others, it would seem, want to pass off personal opinions as fact. Sorry, but they are just that, YOUR opinion. Others have different opinions that are just as valid, and I dont need to insert words into verses of The Qur’an to try and prove it. The Qur’an, itself, doesnt directly mention music. it is what some people who read into it that think it is talking about music. Others do not support this view.
Idle time might not have been your point, but the verses from The Qur’an you posted certainly were aimed at idle time. If you use it for the defence of your position dont be surprised if it is used to refute that. The verse from The Qur’an that you posted dealt with idle time, the person who inserted their own thoughts and opinions into the verse targeted that “Idle time” at music. I would suggest that the verse was talking about ALL idle time, not just pointing the finger at music. Again, the person who interjected their own thought and opinions into those versus is bordering on shirk for thinking that they can or are able to claryify what God meant. God forbid anyone from thinking that they posses the right or the ability to perfect what they think God has not.
As to you trying to convince others to give up music, if that is not what you are doing, then what exactly are you doing in this conversation at all? If not trying to “correct” others as to where you think they error in the religion, then it would be very clear that you are doing nothing here other than engaging in idle talk, with unrelated males, and engaging in argument. So if you are not trying to give naseeha or to correct others, what other explaination for spending so much time here in what is clearly then idle time?
It would be hard to find a better description of “idle time spent” than that.
As to supporting our modern view of Sharia and what the scholars think, I guess because it is backed by what some pass of as Sharia today, you support this:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/23/saudi.arabia.child.marriage/index.html
It is funny that you talk about the “big picture”. I think that many modern Salafi completely MISS the “big picture” because they are so hung up on the smallest issues. It would seem that you have a tendency to do the same thing. Hours and hours of idle time spent arguing about the smallest issues.
@Abu Sinan – peace
I am also not a fan of cut and paste and going through hadiths to “provide proof” in order to make your points valid and legitimate. To allow certain instruments and prohibit others because they were not played at the time of the prophet (pbuh) is like claiming that we should not be driving cars but riding camels and horses. Fornication and alcohol are clearly prohibited in the quran unlike music and thus cannot be put in the same box.
Kalimaat, I don’t care if you are a fan of cut and paste or not. You made claims on the sahaba…u claimed that, “drums and guitars are musical instruments which the Muslims played during the prophet’s time”. Either you fabricated this or you have proof for your statement. I just want to see the proof otherwise I will consider you a liar. If you can’t recall your soucres..that’s one thing but if you don’t have a source that’s another.
Indeed Kamlimaat, but lets not spoil the fun of those who like to point out the supposed faults of everyone else, but always seem unable to direct their microscope to their own lives.
But it is interesting that those who claim to seek to want to live like the Prophet always want to ban this or that…….but you seldom see them giving up their cars, their air conditioning, modern medine, or even their computers. Most of these things are innovations from “the kufar”.
I have always suggested that those so extreme in their practice of the religion reject these innovations and inventions of the “Kufar”. Hence, they should not use computers, cell phones, cars, air conditioning and most modern medicine because if they do they are most certainly “immitating the Kufar”.
Um Adam,
If you doubt there were musical instruments at the time of the Prophet you need to brush up on your Arabic hsitory.
Having lived so long in Saudi and the Middle East I am sure your Arabic is much better than mine, but even I could get through the article I have linked to. If you read the link below you’ll see mention of the ‘oud in pre-Islamic Arabian history.
http://www.khaledtrm.net/74.html
Too Funny, We are starting degree waving. Go see one of your psychiatric colleagues you certainly need it.
By the way this is not an assumption on my part, you have shown very erratic behavior and subscribed to a brand of the religion that wants to close your mind. You may not think so, but that is where you are.
You talk about not accusing others and that you’re just voicing your opinions about the religion. However, your rants are full of judgments. And somehow you wonder why people attack your posts.
Here is a prime example of your assumptions and judgment about others.:
“when you start changing the religion to meet the desires of the people, the world political correctness or what ever than you start becoming a slave of those things and that is your master not allah.”
You can take my comment as a personal attack, but the fact is we are simply tired of hearing you throw such wild accusations at us because we disagree with you.
You also think you are not obsessed, even though you wrote over a dozen long comments about a topic when you could have simply stated your position in 5 sentences without pointing fingers and acting self-righteous. If you did that then you would have had my respect. But honestly, the way you behave here makes you sound like a loon.
Good points Saudi in USA.
I wonder how Um Adam would square the hadith, where it is reported that the Prophet claims to be able to see the future, with The Qur’an, which makes it clear the Prophet CANNOT see the future?
Either The Qur’an is true, or the hadith is. As they are at complete odds, one must be untrue! I wager on The Qur’an being accurate and the hadith not being true.
So Um Adam, which is true, The Qur’an (the actual word of God) or the Hadith passed down by men? They cannot both be true. If this hadith, reported by Bukhari is obviously false, then how many more out there are the same?
“Say (O Muhammad), “I have no power to benefit myself, or harm myself. Only what God wills happen to me. If I knew the future, I would have increased my wealth, and no harm would have afflicted me. I am no more than a warner, and a bearer of good news for those who believe.” 7:188
“Say (O Muhammad), “I am not different from other messengers, I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner.” 46:9
The hadith most often used to justify the ban on music is obviously incorrect as it contradicts The Qur’an!
thou doth protest too much when you follow your justifications with exactly the type of comment that others are pointing out and you say you don’t do.
“Allah created heaven and hell and he created people to inhabit them both”
i.e. “I’m only saying what the rules are” followed by “and thank god for these rules, which are correct, which we should follow and if you don’t you’re going to hell. thank god”
I really enjoy reading ummadams comments, what I don’t enjoy is being TOLD what right and wrong ARE by someone who only professes to be having a discussion.
UmAdam: (1) My comment wasn’t directed at you, it was a comment made in general about music and how it’s ridiculous for it to be considered bad, in general (certainly there is some music that is truly tasteless). (2) If you read my comment with understanding and comprehension you would have pick up on it’s intent (which you seem incapable of doing), you would have picked up that my whole point is God (if there is indeed one) created music (by giving those with who have the gift of song), and gave us the beauty of music through nature. I would declare that your obsessive rants, judgmental attitude, and constantly turning every post into a Quranic (i don’t think that’s a word) rant is rude, and just in bad taste (isn’t that haram).
and please don’t misunderstand. what I mention above is just as unacceptable when it comes from a Christian, which I’ve seen a lot. My son’s adoptive parents, or rather his father, who treat(ed) me like a daughter for years and professed to love me, once told me how sad he was that they knew where they were going when they died and it upset him that I WOULDN’T BE THERE TOO.
unacceptable, self righteous and, as far as I’m concerned, more likely to end him up in hell than me..if God is the loving being we all ultimately believe he is.
so, this is sorta personal for me.
How come “idle talk” just cant mean what it clearly seems to mean..gossiping and back biting…which are both considered haram…why must it be “interpreted” to mean music when, if it meant music, it would seem God could easily have used the word music? Why do so many many Muslims have this firm belief that God didnt use EXACTLY the word He meant…and so an interpretation in brackets had to be inserted to make the meaning “more clear”…
puhleeze…hell will be full for sure…but dont count us music lovers as the only “idle talk” lovers to be taking up space. Many many scholars have been spewing forth “idle talk” for centuries….and Muslims are listening to that crap with ears wide open…explain to me the difference.
Sheesh I’m reading a lot of idle talk here!
(@ Abu Sinan: I’m not idle, I’m watching ´´Oliver Twist”, eating dinner, and stealing a glance at the computer from time to time)
I guess most logical thinking people are tired of the cherry-picking here. If music was thát unpleasing to God it would be mentioned so in the quran, as it isn’t the whole discussion seems to be just about personal preference.
Forbidding music is also imitating the kuffar btw, the christians were there first. Some of the ancient creepy christians wanted to forbid even humour and laughter!
Oops, probably stealing away the scoop for next salafi objective here.
If anybody wants to cut themselves off from anything fun beautiful or good they are welcome to do so. If you think that God is some practical sadistic entity who’se primary goal is to offer you good things and then finds pleasure in you rejecting them and locking yourself up in some grey blind comfortless cold world, be my guest.
What I object to is if such sad people think they have to keep on bashing other thinking people with endless quotations, cherry=picked out of context.
And don’t come with the nonsense that such people do not want to compel others into sharing their joyless world. Such endless recanting has only two goals:
1-to appease their vanity by showing off their own ‘’superiority”
2-To scare and to enforce others into living the same poor misguided life
It’s nothing to do with Islam, or any religion, it’s a psycological affliction found all over the world, and in all religions.
While I am in general agreement with all those defending the joy of music, and its religious acceptability, I do wonder if this post is not reaching saturation (the point at which no more truly new information or perspectives are being contributed), and is perilously close to inappropriate personal attacks rather than debate. Of course, that would be for American Bedu to decide.
In defense of scholarship, while there is much bad scholarship, good scholarship is rigorous in method and cautious in its conclusions. It is always open to new circumstances and flexible enough to adjust to them (eg. contemporary Islamic scholarship gives guidance based on the Quran and hadith regarding medical ethics questions resulting from technological advances, such as in vitro fertilization, transplantation, longterm respirator care, etc)
In defense of psychiatry, while abuses have been committed in the name of psychiatry, it is also easy to abuse psychological or psychiatric knowledge for ad hominem attacks.
Once again, no offense is intended toward anyone by the above, and I believe in respecting each other’s faith practices.
Chiara
Don’t Muslims believe the prophet David was given the Psalms by God? They are full of singing and dancing and praising God with musical instruments.
We sing in my church. It is worshiping God and giving Him the glory that He alone deserves. It’s exalting Him and remembering His goodness.
What’s wrong with that? The Bible says if the people are silent in their praises then the rocks will cry out.
See Jesus’ words here from Luke 19
37 Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, 38 saying:
“‘Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the LORD!’
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”
39 And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”
40 But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”
So sing and make a joyful noise to the Lord! Note verse 3.
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
1 I waited patiently for the LORD;
And He inclined to me,
And heard my cry.
2 He also brought me up out of a horrible pit,
Out of the miry clay,
And set my feet upon a rock,
And established my steps.
3 He has put a new song in my mouth—
Praise to our God;
Many will see it and fear,
And will trust in the LORD.
Hello,
I blurk, but I enjoy your blog quite a bit.
I’d feel like we were missing something if we couldn’t sing in worship to God in church, or anywhere else, and I sing very, very badly. I’m glad that movement has sort of passed in most of Christianity.
And, not to get into any of this, because what I know about Islam couldn’t fill a very, very tiny cup, but I don’t understand why the one thing allowed is a drum. Personally, I find drumming primal, and if I were ever going to do something primitive and base-instinct-ish, I think a drum would be the music that got me going. Certainly not Beethoven or Bach or Mozart.
-Amber
So the question remains, has Bedu managed to find a reputable second hand piano that she can play and enjoy loudly in the comfort of her own home?
Amber – thank you for coming out of blurking and posting a comment! (smile)
You’re right in that the drum is so primal and when you hear the different tones that can emanate from one small instrument it is amazing!
Aussiegirl – this will be one of my goals for 2009! I was kind of hoping that with this post someone in KSA might help put me on to where to start for a used piano market but no luck yet. I’ve also put out the word I am looking to other newsgroups and word of mouth… the spot is all picked out in my house and my music which I’ve had for years and years is just waiting to be played!
As a non religious person, I can’t actually comprehend how any religion could “ban” this creative and amazing form of art. Whilst I don’t agree we need to follow a lot of things “banned” in Islam, I can logically understand and see the reasoning used to justify it (except pork, my second fav meat
) but not for music… If I revealed this information to my non-muslim friends they would just be further turned off the religion. If a muslim thinks that isn’t a problem, then look at the world today regarding all the issues of hatred directed towards your religion. Hopefully noone says muslims arent responsible for correcting any of that.
[...] Never again insha’Allah. May Allah forgive me. [...]
Music is considered forbidden in Saudi Arabia because it is classified as haraam according to the Wahhabist interpretation of Islam. The Wahhabis are an offshoot from the smallest madhab, the Hanbalis. In the 18th century they formed as a revolt against the Ottoman caliph to establish control the Holy Cities of Mecca and Medina. Their leader (Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhab) may have been sincere and a devout person, but in time his descendents became slaves to the king. The Saudi government allied with the British in the early 20th century, maintaining a firm grip on power due to the support of initially the British (from World War I), and eventually American government (after World War II).
I used to follow the conjecture of these heretic throwbacks (Saudi Salafis) until I realised how they seek to keep the Muslim world in the Dark Ages for their selfish agendas (mainly to maintain hegemony over the Arabian Peninsula, oppress Muslims, and support the globalists). It’s funny how they don’t want you to make taqleed (blind following) of any scholars but their own. I threw out my entire Hindi film and music collections because I believed them, but now I feel that this was a mistake, a grave error. I now believe I am guilty of having acted irrationally. Music is an issue of huge disagreement amongst Muslims scholars, for a rather trivial issue. The Saudis should not be concerned with the playing of music, but rather of the military bases in their country, of providing petroleum at a reasonable price. However, they are keeping people distracted in not having music with their false guise of Islamicity. Remember it’s a holy land but not a holy kingdom! Usury should be of a greater concern, and what about the American military bases there that have provoked so much militancy. The Saudis are fooling Muslims with their “holier than thou” approach, and it is about time that Muslims overthrow the corrupt monarch and re-establish a caliphate (with democratic and Islamic principles) through peaceful and just means.
What is wrong with music when it was the Muslims who pioneered in making the ‘ud, the forerunner to the guitar? Ibn Seena pioneered in psychology by using music as a form of therapy. The problem with the Saudis is that they are far too literalist in their interpretation of the Qur’an and Sunnat (the tradition of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him). They’d probably lock me up and throw away the key for making this whole rant. May Allah forbid they call it blasphemy (where you could be given the death penalty), for what I say here is for the Muslims and even non-Muslims to benefit. My Muslim brothers and sisters, we must acknowledge that it is the rigidity is what got my Muslim bretheren stuck in these doldrum in the first place. It is time to open the doors of fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) to ijtihad (re-interpretation) so that we can live in this age of post-modernity in co-existance with the rest of the world. My salaam to the Muslims, and peace to all peoples of the world!
Asif, welcome and thank you for sharing your views.
Wow I am searching for a second hand piano in Saudi Arabia and landed here, but found a great discussion on music and religion.
Thus I wonder how people will react with this first all-female Saudi rock band.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v3VAyFxPIA
Peace.
@Lithium – welcome to the blog and glad you enjoyed the discussion. Thanks for the link.