Disclaimer: This post is in no way meant to condone or encourage dating in Saudi Arabia among Saudis. It is well known that interaction between unrelated members of the opposite sex is prohibited both culturally and legally in the Kingdom and circumventing these laws can have harsh consequences. However at the same time it is also known that dating among Saudis does indeed take place. These Saudis know they are taking calculated risks and could face dire repercussions for their actions. Therefore this post is written with the intent of offering some pointers to help protect the guy or girl who chooses to take such risks.
Some guys may not be as innocent or pure as they may sound when begging and pleading a girl to meet with them, whether the meeting is in a public or private venue. The girl should keep this in mind as one wrong move and her reputation and marriage prospects could be ruined with one false step. So if a couple has decided that they simply must take the chance and meet here are some tips they should keep in mind:
- A girl should always look for cameras. Even if it is a public venue, she would not want to be captured as documented evidence of meeting with an unrelated man. And if she has agreed to meet with a guy in a private venue, it may be more problematic to look for cameras which could be hidden. Clues to keep in mind if meeting in a private place which may have a concealed camera is if the guy is insistent that she sit in a certain location. Remember, a picture can say a thousand words and a picture of a single Saudi girl with an unrelated guy can ruin her reputation as well as the family’s face and honor.
- A girl should have a trusted confident who is aware of what she is up to, where she is going and that individual would take action if after a specified time there was no contact from the girl. She should NEVER agree to meet a guy without letting someone know what she is up to.
- A girl should be prepared to take care of herself in the event such a situation gets out of hand. Pepper spray is very effective and a guy would probably not be alerted if a girl were to bring out a can of pepper spray from her handbag. It is small and he may simply think “oh, she’s wants to spray some perfume.” Pepper spray will disable a guy for a short period so do have a planned escape route in mind.
- While a delicate topic, if a girl and guy are feeling passionate he may convince her for “just one kiss.” But if the guy has unusual sores or blisters around or near his lips, think twice as this could be a sign of a sexually transmitted disease (STD). Remember, neither may know just how “exposed” or “experienced” the guy (or girl) may have been. Life is precious – take care and protect it. Do not let passion rule your head.
- If in the event a situation gets out of hand or there is an accident or any kind of emergency, know in advance who to call and how to make the call. Determine whether a call would take place or an SMS simply stating 911 (widely known code for emergency)
- Do not attempt to meet in an unknown location or a remote location. Both the guy and girl need to know where they are. I mention the guy here as well because he would also need to be careful and cautious so as not to be trapped. Think about it – what if a girl’s brothers or father learned she was in contact with an unrelated guy and wanted their own revenge and were trying to set up the guy into thinking he was actually going to meet the girl but instead would find them waiting for him?
If you are determined to meet the guy, go to him. Do not agree to have him pick you up regardless of how well you think you may know him if you’ve never actually met him before. Once a woman gets into the vehicle with the guy, he has the control.
Filed under: America, Entertainment, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, Saudi education, Women Issues, culture, friendship, gender, islam, relationships, religion, travel
[...] 5, 2008 What a sad sad state of affairs we are in when a Muslim is giving dating tips to other Muslims. May Allah protect us from such evil…aameen. Be that as it may, it is the duty of every [...]
Most of your tips apply to Western expats as well as Saudis. Dating is forbidden for expats, too. Though the consequences are not as severe for them, I have seen Westerners get thrown out of the country on twenty-four hours notice for dating and drinking.
You’re right Marahm. And I believe in being realistic and facing realities of what happens here. We should not bury our heads in the sand and pretend these things do not happen or turn a blind eye. Perhaps by broaching such a topic it will help others understand the severe repurcussions faced when attempting to circumvent the system in place.
Not to mention females should never wear high heels etc to these meet ups…running away from danger is impossible in high heels.
I would never go alone to a meet up…bring your best friends along and let them sit and giggle a prudent distance away…just so you feel safer and the guy knows he’s not in complete incognito…so to speak….just a thought.
Now that you mention it coolred, I have seen just that…where the young lady will be sitting in the family section of a Starbucks with her young man and her friends are usually a few tables over… The case I saw it also looked like relatives of the young man facilitated his entry to the family section
I honestly think that several of those points hold true here in the US… You never know!
I was just thinking the same thing Monica, with the exception of the scoping the room for cameras. I have a thing of pepper spray that I usually carry around in my bag (which I have always wanted to use on someone just to see what would happen). I will say that it most definitely does not look like a bottle of perfume though unless perfumes are now being packaged in very ugly gray canisters
However a key distinction between the US and Saudi Arabia is that there are no laws prohibiting an unrelated man and woman (regardless of nationality)from being alone together in the USA.
The best dating advice I got came from a male friend of mine (see another reason for male friends
) That advise was…before you go on a date with a guy…check his ID. And, I was like, huh? And he said, seriously…think about it…you meet a guy…he tells you his name is, “A” and you don’t know that to be true. To me…that was the most common sense dating advice I ever got.
WOW!! Dating in Saudi?? Where have I been??? lol You know, dating is not culturally or legally the reason why it is forbidden. Has nothing to do with culture but EVERYTHING to do with ISLAM!!! Unless there is a fatwa, that I don’t know about, that states dating is OK!!!?? lol
Of course, I am just being sarcastic by being surprised. Yea, it goes on, unfortunately, and sometimes the things that do occur in Saudi are by far worse than the west. The difference is that every thing is kept “Hush, Hush” and in secret! I think many would be surprised as to what really goes on if things were to come out in the open……………..
Coolred’s comment about going on a date in a public place and your friends or family sitting a little bit away is a pretty good idea imho. It’s actually pretty common amongst my people (my peoples aren’t muslim btw) and most of my muslim friends. I don’t know whether this is also not allowed for muslims, but if the issue is being alone with an unrelated guy/girl, this setup seems to take care of that problem
Do they have arranged marriages in Saudi? How do the couples first meet and talk (in private) ?
Let me speak frankly, I have a neutral footing on dating between unrelated couples though I don’t indict nor condemn any who might do so. People here are choked, and many guys and girls think that dating is indeed an outlet.
However, why do guys and girls date? according to many friends of mine, they don’t date to get to know each other better nor to evolve an ongoing relationship that might reach marriage, no, most of them date for a sexual intercourse, and when they do it, they do it “all the way” and the s*** hits the fan.
I know some girls got pregnant at the age of 18!! and they had to travel to Egypt or Lebanon to restore the hymen, that was a mess, and most of the guys who do this to girls flee and never show again no matter how the girl begs for that.
Girls should be aware of whom they are dating, a guy with a serious intention and who seeks a relationship that ends with marriage differs from a guy who just plays around, and the latter is the most popular, alas.
Regards,
Loay
thanks for all of the enlightening comments and views.
Mezba – I have written numerous posts about marriage procedures, weddings and dowries. If you do a search in my blog using the key word ‘marriage’ these posts will come up. The short answer to your question is that the majority of marriages in Saudi are arranged.
Considering that girls and boys really go into relationships with a different mindset (Im talking generally here)…girls generally looking for love…boys generally looking for sex…if he pushes rather quickly for any form of intimacy no matter how small…holding hands…hand on the back etc…then she should run a mile…cause if he’s in it for the long run…seriously looking for marriage etc…then he wont be in a hurry for the relationship to progress towards sexual activities…if he’s out for the ‘quick bang” then he’ll be going for the home run before she’s had a chance to warm up in the batters box…so to speak. That should tell her all she needs to know…and get the hell out of there. Then again…if she’s a home run kind of girl…then she come to the date swinging…so to speak…lol. (I dont like baseball at all…ha ha)
it never fails toamaze me how well sports terminology fits so well to many aspects of life.
Many of these pointers apply worldwide, and I agree with Marahm to have back-up, never meet somebody on your own. I also would add: never accept a drink you haven’t had your eyes on since it was poured out, never finish a drink you left unattended.
I’ve just finished ”Girls of Riyad” while I have no idea if there is any resemblance to the truth, I have read several interviews with saudi youths where they explain their tactics on bluetooth and internet, and even if it’s considered wrong to date, it happens, and I think it’s a good thing to point out some precautions.
Thanks for sharing that colored 38,it’s about time that I learned about boys at the age of almost 55,lol.
Do you have some more advise for women about how males think?I think it will be very helpful to many women at any age.Some of those ,let’s say guys that are up there in age,come out swining right away on dates,I think,I’m not sure,I’ve never dated a guy up there .
I’m a boaring guy
I don’t date, so the tips doesn’t apply for me, but thanks for sharing; I liked the pepper spry idea 
I always click submit by mistake
Sorry for being in a hurry. Here what I said:
I don’t date, so the tips doesn’t apply for me, but thanks for sharing; I liked the pepper spray idea 
. BTW, I have no probs at all talking/working/sitting with females as long as we are in a public place.
I’m a boring guy
Aafke – you bring up a good point. I remember that “date rape” had been an issue in the States (and elsewhere) starting from something being slipped into a woman’s drink rendering her semi-conscious. Kind of sad that in the societies where dating takes place that one has to even think or wonder about those kind of things happening!
Khalid – thank you. I’m glad to hear from a Saudi guy and hope to hear from more too!
I totally disagree with this advice but instead of being long winded and taking up your comment section once again I responded on my own space. And since I don’t know how to do the trackback.. here is the link http://nzinghas.blogspot.com/2008/12/my-advice-on-dating-in-saudi-arabia.html
[...] Saudi Guide to Dating %u2013 What Every Male & Female Should Know American Bedu Interesting post from an American (married to a Saudi, living in KSA) woman offering dating advice to Saudi women (tags: saudiarabia blogs dating) [...]
I certainly will not be leaving my drinks around anywhere at anyplace,anymore,ever again,accept in my own cozy home.Thanks for that good dating advice for this 54 and a half-year-old.
Now I would agree it is most unwise to ”date” even in the most innocent form in Saudi Arabia, I don’t think Bedu meant this post as an evil ”dating guide” for all saudi youngsters to follow. I remember the idea of a ”guide for dating in KSA” came up during discussions at the comments section in another thread. It seems that Bedu simply followed the request and wrote some good dating advice in a post.
And why is ”dating” equalled with ‘’sex”? Has the meaning of the word ”dating” changed without me noticing?
Let’s have some clarity;
For me a ”date” means going to have tea or a bite to eat at a public place or perhaps a movie, but defenitely not including ‘’sex”.
So if I go on a ”date” I meet somebody at a public place, have something to eat or drink, say ”goodbye”, jump on my bicycle and go home.
I think for the sake of clarity we need to call things by their correct denomination.
So, according to the Oxford Dictionary of Current English:
”a date”:
an arrangement to meet at a particular time: Call me next week and we’ll try and make a date.
or:
a meeting that you have arranged with a boyfriend or girlfriend or with sb who might become a boyfriend or girlfriend
Now I realise some people have problems with boys and girls meeting and talking/drinking/eating together in a public place, but so sorry, it still doesn not equal ‘’sex”. For ‘’sex” we have the word:
‘’sex”
according to the Oxford dictionary:
physical activity between two people in which they touch each other’s sexual organs, and which may include sexual intercourse.
That is a whole different ballgame than having a drink and a talk.
The two are very different activities.
”Dating” and ‘’sex” are different activities.
‘’sex” does not automatically follow ”dating”
So for the sake of fairness and understanding, I think we all should make clear what exactely we mean, and make use of the English language accordingly.
Especially because some people think it nesseccary to attack Bedu for mentioning the horrendous crime of ”dating”.
Even if they do do their backbiting only in the safety of their own little veiled bluestocking côterie/covens.
If you want to talk about ‘’sex” call it ‘’sex” and not ”dating”
After all, the fact that even in KSA some irresponsible youngsters still manage to ”date” is well known. We even known that many grown up Saudies, especially when abroad, and even when scholars, engage in worse activities, like ‘’sex”. Time and time again, people who live in KSA comment on different blogs, and different media, that everything which happens in the rest of the world happens in KSA too. That includes drinking alcohol, sex, prostitution, gay relationships etc.
Too bad, but it is ridiculous to close ones eyes and imagine KSA as a kind of Islamic-Disney-wonderland, and attack anybody who dares to throw a spanner in the wheels of that dream.
Don’t blame American Bedu for mentioning what other people do, and what everybody already knows about.
Don’t blame American Bedu for posting a few good advice rules in a blog whose majority of readers are from ”the rest of the world” anyway, where ”dating” is the most normal thing in the world. Not just non-muslims, but muslims in other countries ”date” too btw.
American Bedu makes no judgements, and tries to be unbiased.
Don’t think anybody can be a honest righteous muslim without proper niyah, compassion, and using the friendly polite soft words the prophet advised for discussing.
I suppose we all know his stance on hypocrisy and backbiting.
I dont agree at all with the idea that Carol is promoting an idea on how to “get away with it”…as I dont see that at all in her post. Its more along the lines of what to expect and what to avoid…its not like she was saying…tell your parents your going to ur girlfriends house but ur really going to meet a boy.
I agree with Aafke….dating does not equal sex. Maybe thats the eventual conclusion of a lot of dates…but not always the original intent.
Then again…considering all the sexual misconduct that goes on at home against daughters and sisters (not to mention mothers)…Im wondering why its always the female that needs to do all the “guarding and lowering of the gaze”…when do the men and boys have to take up the slack from their side?
Another post I read (no names here) just seemed to pile all the responsibility on the girls…blaming and shaming them…with hardly a mention of boys…meanwhile both are supposed to be Muslim and minding their manners…Im just saying.
When you are a Muslim giving any kind of advice on how to date so that you don’t get caught it is haraam, even if you are giving advice to non-Muslims. Haraam is haraam there are no loopholes.
Aafke, Coolred, thanks for your comments. I realize not all my posts will be well received or popular. I continue to call it as I see it and happy I’m able to give others fodder to discuss on their own blogs too.
Interestingly the more one is immersed in the Saudi culture which I mean having more time spent living and interacting with Saudis rather than expats much goes on that is counter to Islamic teachings. That is part of the reality here.
coolred- Another post I read (no names here) just seemed to pile all the responsibility on the girls…blaming and shaming them…with hardly a mention of boys…meanwhile both are supposed to be Muslim and minding their manners…Im just saying.”
The realities of this culture, and Carol knows this, is that the girls are blamed. The boys walk away no harm done, they might get yelled at for a while but none of them recieve the treatment which includes physical and mental torment by the hands of their family.
@aafke- even if dating in the defintion of the word does not = sex the realities of what goes on in this country speaks of a whole other deal. Majority result in the two having sex or having some type of sexual encounter. Those that do not even exposing what many outside of this culture, even Muslims, wouldn’t feel is wrong, the girls are punished for. Fathers will drag their daughters to the drs have their hymens checked, they will be beaten and many times locked within their homes as captives. I tend to think they are the lucky ones.. there are others who are being victims of a growing tendency to blackmail these girls by their pursuers and raped.
Speaking about the realities of this culture.. we should speak of all of it. And considering the violent end which comes from dating for many young girls (Yes not boys in this culture) I don’t think we should be giving pointers on how to date, rather encouraging our young people not to date at all.
Nzingha – I like the way your post approached the issue in a different way from mine but getting the severe consequences across in a practical manner. I think your post is an excellent example with very good reasons to discourage dating. It would be ideal if everyone would follow your wise advise.
Like I said, not everyone will agree with what I wrote and that’s okay too. I know you are pretty regular here so you may recall that this was a requested topic by a Saudi male who expressed concern on knowing this was taking place. That doesn’t make it right but again, it is simply a reality.
I realize many of my perspectives may be unpopular. I also believe that a young woman who is getting married in an arranged marriage and who has only ahd limited exposure to her new husband should be on birth control pills until she and her husband have forged a bond and learned to live together and (inshallah) appreciate/love each other as husband and wife before bringing a baby into the equation. Yet I know many view this as unacceptable too.
bottom line, can’t please everyone and don’t intend to try!
Aafke: Is there something I don’t get here, You are confusing me. I went twice over the comments and I didn’t see any attack or something of this sort. No one said American Bedu is biased, and true as you said, she made no judgments. Why are you assuming something wasn’t mentioned? If there is attack as you say
and I’ve not seen it, then perhaps I’m dumb and I don’t get it.
According to Oxford dictionary, gay means “Full of or showing high-spirited merriment”. Go to the street and find any man and tell him “You are gay” and if he got annoyed, tell him sorry, I meant, merry Christmas
. They always tell us here, dictionary doesn’t represent the language accurately. Language is constantly changing , and dictionaries cannot follow up.
So according to the definition of “date” in Oxford dictionary, I dated many times and I’m not aware. Shame on me, shame on me
Last week I dated a woman as old as my mother. I met her alone in a coffee shop — I should be aware in the future and don’t date again 
KSA is not considered to be an Islamic-heaven, or as you put it, “Islamic-Disney-wonderland”, and it will never be so. Currently, I’d say, there is no country in the whole universe represent all the teachings of Islam. Shame on us true, but the reality, that most of us are ignorant when it comes to the Qur’an and the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and upon all the Prophets. You can find people who are pious Muslims, but to find an entire country, I’m sorry, that doesn’t exist and I doubt that will exist anytime soon. For me, Islam is a way of life, I find in it all what I want. Thus I follow it , and I’m very happy with that. It does bother me indeed that there is no a completely reverent Islamic government, but that will change nothing for me as far as Islam is concerned. I’ll follow Islam even if the entire people in KSA decide to become atheists
(I’m just being facetious here 
. Islam is Islam, will never changed whether Saudis follow it or nope.
Back to dating
whenever I want to travel abroad, my parents always tell me ” God is always watching you. We, your parents, cannot keep on watching you, so never does something that will annoy God from you. Always keep on praying the 5 prayers on time, never do something wrong with girls because that will be repaid in your family, God is always fair.”
I should say that till now my parents advice are echoing on my ears, and as a result I always think that God is watching me, and if something I don’t want to do it in front of the eyes of other people, then I don’t do it because Allah’s eyes are more important than all the people.
So my parents told me never to date and they mentioned to me the consequences of dating. They never told me, if you couldn’t help it , and you found yourself in a situation where you have to date, then do blah blah. I like the idea of discouraging people by saying the consequences of dating rather than giving them tips and tricks.
“young woman who is getting married in an arranged marriage and who has only ahd limited exposure to her new husband should be on birth control pills”
I totally agree. Carol, you might be amaze, do you know that almost 90% (if even not more) of the Saudis that I attended their weddings in the recent years, didn’t have a child during the first 2 years or so of their marriage. I even have two of my married friend, they told me the best thing to do is to spend at least the first year or two with your wife without having a child — that will give more free time to travel and enjoy many things you might not be able to do when having a child. I liked the idea. and BTW, there is nothing in Islam that says that a married couple must have their newborn after 9 months of marriage
peace
odd, why the first comment is awaiting moderation and the second nope
it seems wordpress is acting funny 
Any idea Carol?
Hi Khalid – sometimes if there are too many quotes or smileys wordpress thinks the comment needs to be moderated. Strange, I know.
Aafke, I believe, is responding to some of the outrage my post has caused and being commented upon via other blogs.
and don’t worry Khalid, it will be our secret you “dated” a woman as old as your mother! (smile)
Khalid, (tsss, a kuhlwa date, and acknowledging it?)
I said *Especially because some people think it nesseccary to attack Bedu for mentioning the horrendous crime of ”dating”.
Even if they do do their backbiting only in the safety of their own little veiled bluestocking côterie/covens.*
Because I have issues with those who indulge in a lot of cosy backbiting in the comparative safety of their own blogs instead of speaking out plainly here at Bedu’s blog. Not to mention gossipping and making veiled threats about the eventual result if the ”authorities” find out about Bedu’s ‘’subversive” blog.
And I hope I made clear that I consider such behaviour to bereally bad evil fitnah, zina, whatever. Totally contrary to the concepts of honour, truth, etiquette, classy behaviour, compassion, and the combined teachings of every prophet over the last couple of millenia.
About KSA not being a ”Islamic-disney-wonderland” that is not at all my own opinion, but I do get that from other people, especially those muslims who do not live there, or only as temporary expats.
Some people seem to worship anything saudi simply because it is saudi. Without any critical thought.
And I don’t agree, at all, ever, with not wanting to use ones critical brain. Also it seems to me that especially KSA prefers many tribal customs from the Nejd area above the teachings of the quran, and the spirit of Islam.
But that does not mean that I want to put any doubts on any particular saudi about their adherence to Islam. I haven’t met all saudi citizens.
Besides, I was very impressed with my haram kuhlwa meeting with Nader, and he gave me much to think about, and I have been impressed by your comments here too.
So please read my comments carefully.
Eeeeh, that was a date actually, wasn´t it? ànd kuhlwa if you consider sitting in a modern glass built café, ”en plein publique” as being in seclusion….
I’ve dated a saudi bloke, cheeks going all red here….
Love and hugs to you Aafke!!
There is a hadith that says something along the lines that when an unrelated man and women are together, the third personal always present is Satan.
I am of two opinions on this. From a religious and cultural aspect, dating is wrong. At the same time, I dont really feel I can sign on with most people moaning about this post elsewhere because it is almost always sold with the idea that dating really isnt that common in Saudi, or it isnt a big problem.
Some people just refuse to believe that these things happen in Saudi, because it is the home of Islam. The fact is, is that alcohol used to be brewed in the underground passages of the grand mosque, prostitutes are common in places like Medina, Mecca and Jeddah, as are drugs.
Saudi is just like any other country in the world, so to deny it is to not accept reality. It’s isnt bashing Saudi to point this out, it is to accept reality.
It’s still only a hadith. I know it as ”When a man and a woman are alone in a room, shaytan is sitting in the corner”
And what does that mean? That there is a possibillity of getting into a bad fix. Which is why according to European etiquette you always leave the door open, so you are not in complete ‘’seclusion”.
If the saudies choose to explain this hadith in the harshest manner, that does not conclude they are in the right. They might be quite wrong.
The hadith does not mention it’s absolutely forbidden, or warrants 200 lashes, or anything but that one should be aware of doing wrong.
And it’s still just a hadith, not the quran.
And anyway, what really counts is niyah is it not so? That is the same wether you ”meet” or ”date” or are just sitting at home still beset with wrong thoughts and wishes.
It’s quite possible, to date with pure intentions.
there are some people in the world who do not want to do wrong.
Difficult to get your head around perhaps, people live by ”projection”: they see the world as they themselves are. So if you are evil and full of sin, you will be biased, and always see the world as evil, and everybody in it to only want to commit sins and evil.
Ive always wondered about that hadith…how come it couldnt be…”when a man and a woman are alone together…an angel stands guard” or something like that? Just a thought…but then again…every person on the planet apparently has two angels with them at every moment of their mature decision making life…so why doesnt 4 angels out rank and over power one single shaytan? Again…just another thought.
@Coolred, don’t be rediculous! Your question is not from critical thinking. It didn’t even make sense. How do you question how/why Allah and His Messenger said this and not that?! If that is the case you can do that with everything.
How come Salatul Maghrib couldn’t be 2 or 4 rakats?!
How come it couldn’t be one Eid instead of two?!
How come Man couldn’t be created from light or fire instead of clay?!
How come it couldn’t be me that Allah spoke directly to instead of Moses?!
How come the sky couldn’t be red?!
But if you really want to know,
“…how come it couldnt be…”when a man and a woman are alone together…an angel stands guard” or something like that? ”
It is because it is the Decree of Allah and He willed it like that!
and
“…so why doesnt 4 angels out rank and over power one single shaytan? “
Because the person who listens to shaytaan was misguided in himself, receptive to falsehood and resistant to the truth – as Allah says:
‘And Shaytaan (Satan) will say when the matter has been decided: “Verily, Allaah promised you a promise of truth. And I too promised you, but I betrayed you. I had no authority over you except that I called you, and you responded to me. So blame me not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me. I deny your former act in associating me (Satan) as a partner with Allaah (by obeying me in the life of the world). Verily, there is a painful torment for the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers).”’
[Ibraaheem 14:22]
I am always impressed by Coolred’s comments. She seems to have an uncanny way of being able to see the good and the positive, and that when she has seen such darkness as well.
I really admire you for that coolred38!
Coolred sees the spirit the substance rather than the limited meaning of words.
And as sinful people can only see darkness and sin in others, Coolred38 is the oppostie, her heart is pure and so she sees angels.
To be pure and honest and able to see and want the good is the only real barrier to keep you from sin. No amount of artificial rules, and regulations, suppression and terror, will stop people from sinning.
Wallowing in darkness, seeing or imagining or accusing fitnah wherever you turn, will never lift you into the light.
Recognising the meaning of truth, seeing what is good and the honest wish to do what is right will.
Some people walk in darkness, others walk in light.
^that just sound so…drug induced…lol.
Coolred,
I agree with Aafke how you always manage to find a positive outlook in spite of having had many trials and hardships. And thanks for reminding those who may not be aware that angels are watching over them too. For some, that may give them more confidence and assurance in day-to-day life.
Aafke, shhhhh
didn’t Carol said we’ll keep it secret 
Plzzzz don’t tell mum because she’ll get angry from me; she’ll not like the fact that the woman was as old as she; she’ll prefer that I “date” a much younger girl 
… BTW, I enjoy your sense of humor Aafke. Your critiques although sometimes soooo harsh, with your wit they become soft and nice criticism (I’m not flattering here BTW ; flattering is haram 
)
Let me get down to the nitty-gritty. Just for clarification, I don’t consider the example you quoted as backbiting. For me, backbiting is when someone speaks with dishonestly about someone while the person doesn’t know. The example you mentioned here, wasn’t so because the person informed American Bedu .
It seems there is a misunderstanding about the concept of khulwa. Does this mean that when a student go to the office of his male/female professor (it depends whether the student is male or female ) and ask about the exam, or inquire about something in the course, that would be called khulwa? To my knowledge, khulwa is when a man and a woman alone in a place where only God’s eyes can see them. In other words, no human eyes can see them. Hence your “haram kuhlwa meeting” is not haram and not khulwa
It’s permissible to talk to members of the opposite sex, of course, provided there is no excitement exists and no softness in speech or temptation is employed
. Men and women used to talk to each other at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him and upon all the prophets) with politeness and modesty. Once a woman came to the Prophet while he was walking with “Odayy bn Hatem Al-Ta’i”(at that time Odayy wasn’t Muslim) and she asked him a question. Long time passed and the Prophet was still talking with the woman. Odayy got bored waiting, and he said this person has to be a prophet (referring to Muhammad peace be upon him) because the prophet was so patient and was talking with the woman without getting bored, and that he made sure to answer all her questions. BTW, Odayy was “ra’is qabila” the head of his tribe..
”When a man and a woman are alone in a room, shaytan is sitting in the corner”
. Angels and devils are everywhere around. We, the human beings, have the ability to listen to whom we choose. If we want to listen and do what Satan wants us to do, we have the freewill to do that , and if we want to listen to the angels, also we have the freewill to do so. Yeah before I forget Khulwa doesn’t require 200 lashes. Maybe you are referring to “zina” this is completely different than Khulwa. Zina requires 80 lashes, however, it has to be confirmed by four people. In other words, 4 (and not not 3) people has to see the man and the woman during the actual time of being in the “intercourse” relationship, so if they only heard about it then it cannot be accepted. Even if the person him/herself confess that s/he did it, it wouldn’t be accepted till the person say it 4 times and insist that s/he did it. Only with this the punishment can be applied. I remember, one of my teachers in high school , told us, Allah made it very hard to caught people doing “zina” cause Allah like “al seter wa laysa al tash-hir” which means Allah doesn’t like the wrong doings to be publicized since the person realizes his/her wrong doing.
Actually the correct saying is: “No man left alone in one place with a woman without Satan being the third of them”. It doesn’t mean that Satan is sitting in the corner of that room watching them. Also it doesn’t mean that Satan is traveling all around searching for places where men and women alone , and then Satan goes and sit in that corner
Now I really really really really really have to get back to my books , I have two finals this week
so plz for everyone hear pray for me that I do super well . I really need everyone’s prayers cause I’m behind in my work.
Pease
Knowing that I might offend you by posting my comment directly here, I’ve chosen to write it in my own blog.
Extreme Saudi Girl’s Dating Guide
Many thanks to you, Carol, for initiating the conversation and thought process.
Hning,
Thanks for your comment and you wrote a very interesting post on your blog. Be prepared for a lot of flak by many but again, you just spoke about the realities.
Khalid, May Allah grant you success…Allahumma aameen.
*There are certain times dua (supplication) is more likely to be accepted by Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta’ala) as mentioned by Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam):
‘There is no believing servant who supplicates for his brother in his absence where the angels do not say, ‘the same be for you”
[Muslim]
Khaild, Thank you for your instructive comment.
I am flattered
No really, thank you for putting so much effort into it, and setting me right on some points.
Now stop writing long comments and keep to your books, and if you get some good notes perhaps we can go on a date.
}:)
I figure shaytan is around when there are two people together regardless of their sexes…and especially when your alone…so why the hadith signifying just a male and female alone together has shaytan for company…he’s everywhere at all times…whether alone or two or three or crowds…he is there. I prefer to remember that angels are there too…shaytan can be made insignificant when I remember my angels….but then thats just me.
I like the way you think there coolred.
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Why would waste your time to write about dating? I think you were a wild girl during your younger years American Bedu, men you are bad…………. and You miss those days. …… I think you were the type that slept will a man on the first date.
Don’t teach our young girls your wild ways! the sad thing is arab men will marry any white woman regardless of her deen just because of her colour even if she used to be an escort, drug use …………….. If you are really a muslim then fear you Lord , you will be asked how you spent your time you ajuza!
Ummsalamah; Why waste your time writing up suppositions about Bedu and regale us on your base imaginations?
You spend your time conjuring up images of wild girls sleeping with men on their first date? Well, if that’s what’s in your mind it will come out I suppose.
And if you are not in the position to act out your obsessions by yourself you think it’s the islamic thing to do to wildly accuse others of doing what’s in your own mind?
Nice bit of dawah.
This post is sure doing a good job identifying the evil-minded, malicious, depraved, obsessed witch-hunters!
PS, I have no respect if people think they can write the most viscious and perverted comments on other peoples blogs but don’t have the guts to sign their own name. Shame on you!
umsalamah
I bet ur a muslim guy pretending to be a muslim woman…if not that…then a muslim woman pretending to be muslim.
Your post reeked of sanctimonious out rage directed in the usual way…at the non muslims who converted but have always had that “shameful” pre convert life….point ur fingers instead at the born muslims who have always “been rightly guided since birth” and still manage to sleep around on the first date (or no dates…just sex) and still walk around as if they are holier than thou…might that be u…hmmm?
Okay…let me interject a little bit here…. it’s okay to disagree with the post, no problem. However I request that all comments be directed in the context of the post as we all strive to be respectful adults who know how to communicate without attacking, using conjecture and simply sidetracking from the post itself. Obviously this is a very emotional issue for many but let’s keep the dialogues professional and on subject rather than reminding me of schoolkids backbiting.
American Bedu
@ummsalamah:
Please read Surah 49 (Al-Hujurat) verse 12. I hope by reading it you’ll realize how big a sin you committed with these few words you wrote.
No matter how many times a young person has been forbidden to do something, inevitably there are going to be some who will still sneak around and do it anyway. I know, because I was one! I don’t think your post is going to convince any young person to go out and date here in Saudi Arabia. That’s absurd.
To Umm Salamah – You are totally out of line with your comments. If you think that you are behaving in an Islamic way, then I don’t want to have anything to do with your form of religion. Who do you think you are anyway? You have just shown us all how stupid you really are. Keep your comments to yourself.
Susie, that was not from any form of any religion – that was from herself. Everything is not about a person and their understanding of their religion – a lot of times that is just from the nafs (soul/self).
I hate to say this but don’t judge Islam by the Muslims (I hate to say it cuz ideally we should be representative of our faith but we are not perfect). Islam is perfect all the faults are ours.
I reread UmmSalamah’s comment and she was definitely speaking out of ignorance. I disagree with Carol on so many levels but I would never suspect her of sleeping around espcially on the first date. Just doesn’t seem her style.
Greetings,
First off I feel I should applaud you, Bedu, for exploring such concepts, especially in the context of our beloved kingdom. Now for the fun part:
Putting the cultural and religious elements aside, I simply think the reward, i.e. experiencing the social aspects of dating, doesn’t justify the inherit risk. Ladies, the simple fact to this matter is that if a man is serious about his intentions he would have no problem formalizing the relationship. Otherwise, you might end up as just a “booty call”
Anyways, if you’re still hell-bent on dating I would suggest taking a taser gun with you. Because nothing says “it aint happening” like 500,000 volts to the system. Well stay safe!
–Devious
Devious…where can I get one!…lol!!!
welcome and thank you for your comments, Devious!
This review of the great Saudi dating scandal [on another thread]–committed by a non-dating married Muslim –reminds me of a question I had. Given the perennial who is a Muslim, who is a good enough Muslim debate, would it have been better or worse for a “Daughter of the Book” married to a Saudi to have made such a carefully worded and thought out post?
No, Chiara, nobody’s allowed to write about it.
Somebody has worked out that people , men and women specifically, are not allowed to talk look or think about each other.
This in contradiction to the time of the prophet where according to the stories people had quite a bit of ”normal” interaction.
So for anybody to mention the subject other than in a derogative manner the result is instant ”excommunication” eg one is immediately discounted as a proper muslim.
From anybody belonging to the ”people of the book” it only affirms their inferiority and slutty morals. Remember, it’s only the prophet (pbuh) who demanded respect for the ”people of the book”, the modern salafis call them kaffirs.
They know better you see.
There are always going to be mixed points of view which will certainly be opposing of each other. Ironically just the other night a Saudi university student (male) was asking me what universities were like in the USA and how dating comes about there. We had a great conversation which was factual but in no way inappropriate. He was amazed to learn of high school proms, dances, homecoming, cheerleaders who support the football team, etc.
Thanks Aafke — especially for the reminder to all of
Quranic respect for People of the Book (Jews, Christians, and Sabians). I’m sure a non-Muslim would be easier to dismiss but one Islamophilic enough to marry a Muslim and live in Saudi might stand a better chance–or so I would have thought.
Thanks American Bedu–the culture shock of Saudi students and their reverse culture shock is an interesting topic in itself. It reminds me of the HIV article, and the remarks of the gay Saudi who was out in the States and in the closet in Saudi. An unusually dramatic example of the need to readjust.
Too bad the Sabians seem to be a lost religion since their inclusion in the “People of the Book” as followers of the Book of Psalms would lend an interesting perspective, as beautiful and erotic as some of the Psalms are!
I hope others, Muslims, non, resurrected Sabians, will comment as well.
ps I often need to remind gay students returning to their conservative cultures that the North American ideal of outing oneself to everyone is probably not wise at home, and not necessary to being happily gay.
Bedu… You are hopeless… you still don’t get it:
You, a Female, talked with a Male student!
WRONG!!!!! FITNAH!!!!! ZINA!!!!!!!
Please don’t tell me you were in the room alone….
Aafke – my lips are now sealed! (smile)
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