What is the Most Difficult Aspect of Marriage to a Saudi?

96 Responses

Manal, on November 29, 2008 at 8:12 am said:

Hey American Bedu,

Just a little note………maybe for those who don’t know much about Islam. Sure you don’t have to be a Muslim but you most certainly do have to be from the “People Of the Book”. Meaning either a Christian or a Jew. A Muslim man can not and should not get involved with someone who is not of the three faiths what so ever……………..

I do find it quite courageous of you to pick up and go live in a completely foreign country for love. Not a lot of people do this. Especially if families are involved. I hope that your husband appreciates you and your love. I know I appreciate my husband for picking up and relocating to where I was at and that was in the SAME country.

(Good post but then again, you always have good ones!!)
Khalid, on November 29, 2008 at 8:31 am said:

“She may be lucky if she falls around eight or nine in the hierarchy of important individuals.”
If this is the case, I suggest then no one should marry this man you are referring to.

“The man is King in Saudi Arabia and it is expected that his needs will be met first and foremost above others.”
If the king is not going to treat his wife as the queen, then definitely she should refuse marrying the king.

“If a Saudi husband was more open in showing his love and affection for his wife that may no longer be the case in Saudi Arabia.”
Why do you think so Carol? I believe whomever loves his wife, he’ll show his love to her in Japan, in Australia, in Egypt, in the moon, in KSA etc.. So, do you mean, that when a Saudi husband is in his US home, he’ll say to his wife “I love you” , but when he is in his Saudi home, he’ll not say it? Love is Love no matter where the person is.

I think a healthy relationship, is that relationship where the husband and the wife keep their problems and their little fights between them. I don’t think they have to share that with even their parents as an example. In my opinion, this will result into a better understanding between the couple in the long run. It requires a good understanding though from both the husband and the wife.
Abdullah Hamed, on November 29, 2008 at 9:05 am said:

if i may ask……. how does it feel for a western woman not to have the choice to divorce without letting go of some of her rights (khol’a) or خلع ?

manal – i think the word “jew” is a derogatory term, and its bad to say. the right word is “Jewish person”

khalid – i think i agree with you for the most part.

something my dad warned me about is the relationship between a man and his mom, and how that will affect his wife.

a man must never put his wife over his mom, since paradise is under the foot of moms in islam. at the same time, a man must show that his mom come first to his wife…. its not fair for her.

what do you all think about what my mom said?
Nzingha, on November 29, 2008 at 9:06 am said:

I would also add there is huge pressure on a man to always be seen as “the man” in all his manliness in public. Public realities are at times much different than private realities. At times this has to be the most frustrating thing for me. There are some very strange concepts of what is a ‘man’ that men in Saudi find themselves they must live up to. And even boys are forced to live up to a definition of a “man” although he is a boy.
American Bedu, on November 29, 2008 at 9:55 am said:

There is a large community of Saudis with foreign wives here in the Kingdom and my post is pretty much a culmination of what I am aware as seemng to be “the norm.” I’m not saying I agree but do not want to bury th head in the sand either in regards to what some of these perceptions (and realities) have been.

I am sorry to disappoint you Saudi guys who have commented and perhaps you are the hope for the next generation of Saudis coming to that “marriagable age and phase” but the Saudis who seem to fall in the 40 plus range tend to display the characteristics cited.

Why would a woman stay in such a relationship then? That is a complicated answer with no one solution or reason. A woman falls in love with a man and they hopefully have a close and loving bond. Then they may come to the Kingdom where responsibilities and priorities change and both go through their own phases of adjustment. Children are usually involved as well. These reasons are just a few barely scratching the surface.

It is very common to hear that a Saudi man goes through a metamorphous on returning to the Kingdom (with a foreign wife) after having been outside for a period of time.
turkishmom, on November 29, 2008 at 11:24 am said:

@Abdullah Hamed:

A man who is respecting his mom (and dad) won’t disrespect his wife.

Wife and mother; they are two different – yet important – persons in a man’s life – he should not be asked to favorite one.

None of the women should ask him to pick a side, and if they treat each other with respect (they don’t need to agree on everything) and as long as the mothe in law doesn’t run her son’s houshold I don’t see a problem.

I respect my mother in law as the woman who raised this great guy who is my husband – I have to admit, he wouldn’t be so great without her
Susie of Arabia, on November 29, 2008 at 2:19 pm said:

Of course there are exceptions, but what you have stated here in your post is definitely the norm. I totally agree with you about the biggest issue is trying to get my hubby to understand the sacrifices that both my teenaged son and I made to come here, compared to our free-wheeling lifestyle in the states. This is something I have to continually point out to him on an ongoing basis. I must admit though, that my hubby does really respond and try to accommodate our needs. For example, I’ve been out of commission now for about ten days with back problems, and since we have no maid, my hubby has been doing all of the laundry, cooking, and cleaning. He won’t let me lift a finger. And during normal times, he helps out in these areas quite a bit anyway – so I guess I am lucky in that respect.
American Bedu, on November 29, 2008 at 2:40 pm said:

You trained him well Susie! (big grin)

Sorry to hear you have been under the weather but happy that you have such a caring husband whose taking care of you and things.
INAL, on November 29, 2008 at 4:43 pm said:

Jews and Christians (regardless of their inner denomination) may have a different concept of marriage; and a cultural result at least in the “west” is that such a concept permeates the way a marriage is maintained. So the same goes for Muslims.

The interesting thing between a Muslim born and a non Muslim or convert is the perception of marriage each brings and how much “negotiation” to meet in the Middle Way is conducted to keep the home peace.

Finding yourself suddenly fifth on the totem pole because you crossed a border is hard on you, since it wasn’t your ranking prior to the crossing. It takes a lot of effort to understand and navigate- and the effort should be mutual not one sided.

Married to an Arab I agree with the general state of affairs Bedu mentioned. And to me the most important piece is the level of commitment demonstrated between a man and a woman when they enter a union.

That however can become null and void if the husband feels compelled to put his mom above his wife carte blanche style. If he does, then why would he seek a wife-just to procreate? And what if the wife is no longer able to- does she get relegated to un paid staff in a household?

Or maybe it is part of how households are structured- when it’s the MIL house – her domain- the wife starts out at NOT the top of the pile.

Or it may be the couple’s original feelings to each other were never up to levels where the wife or husband is seen as important as the “status” of married that Arab culture dictates.

What Bedu points out, indeed, only scratches the surface and gives way to discussing the endless permutations of it and some untold ones as well.
INAL, on November 29, 2008 at 4:59 pm said:

@abdullah Hamed- divorce in America- north or south- means a woman does give up something when she marries by civil law- Catholics don’t by religion those true to it- don’t accept divorce if you were married by the Church; and don’t recognize your marriage if it is by civil law. Catholics who divorce and don’t annul their marriage in the Church can’t remarry within the Church.

The choice is excercised prior to marriage- where a person marries with an understanding of what religious laws dictate and what civil law enacts.

There are women paying alimony to their ex-husbands, men to their exwives; split and sole custody; splitting of assests…
UmmSumayah, on November 29, 2008 at 5:22 pm said:

“The majority of western women who choose to marry a Saudi and live with him in the Kingdom usually have given up to a large extent their country, their family, in some cases careers as well as losing much of the independence and freedom that goes with living in the West. The Saudi husband will likely expect his wife to conform to the customs, culture and tradition of Saudi Arabia. The Saudi husband will usually have a large extended family which plays a significant role in his life. The foreign wife may not be viewed as number one in the husband’s life. She may be lucky if she falls around eight or nine in the hierarchy of important individuals.”

That pretty much sums up my complaints being married to my Saudi husband. But complain as I might, he just doesn’t get it!
coolred38, on November 29, 2008 at 7:49 pm said:

From all my years experience I would say the acceptance of his family is the number one deal maker or deal breaker in marriage to an Arab period as long as he is in his country. It doesnt matter if your are the love story of the century and you just KNOW you will love each other. The extended family are a huge part of your marriage whether you like their presence or not…and yes…his family is more important than yours…his mother is more pious and deserving of your respect than your mother is of him…and that goes on down the family line. You either got to learn to swallow a whole lot of resentment…or set the “rules” right from the start…the longer you let little hurts “slide” the more those little hurts turn into big hurts
American Bedu, on November 29, 2008 at 8:38 pm said:

I am thoroughly enjoying all the comments. You do indeed raise a very good point coolred that I think is endemic in mixed marriages with an Arab – the influence of the family and extended family.
Kristine, on November 30, 2008 at 3:36 am said:

Oh wow, I just realized what an amazing Saudi husband I really have based on this post and comments. When we lived in Saudi, he made it clear to his family in “explicit” terms that they were not to interfere with our relationship with “talk” or unsolicited advice. I am lucky indeed! Thanks for the “lighbulb” moment.
asiyasmom, on November 30, 2008 at 4:37 am said:

It seems like you described marriage to men from most muslim cultures.
American Bedu, on November 30, 2008 at 6:24 am said:

Kristine – you are welcome! I’m curious… since you say “when we lived in Saudi” so does that mean you and your Saudi husband have now chosen to live outside of KSA?

Thanks for your comment, Asiyasmom.
Abu Sinan, on November 30, 2008 at 6:27 am said:

Abdullah,

The term “Jew” is no more a derogatory term than the word “Muslim”. It is all about context.

In the context it was used here it was not incorrect. As a native English speaker I can tell you there is nothing wrong with the word “Jew”.

A “Jew” is someone who follows the Jewish faith or someone born into a Jewish family. Given the right context, any word can be derogatory.

Manal’s point was correct. A Muslim man is required to marry a Muslim, Jewess or a Christian. A Hindu, Buddhist or any member of a faith that are not part of the “People of the Book” is forbidden.
BCIS, on November 30, 2008 at 8:36 am said:

This was a good post. I’ve often asked this question, in my mind, why a western woman would (1) marry a Saudi man and (2) live with him in the KSA. First, before people get in a bunch…I’m not racist against Arab men (I have Arab friends in the States). However, it appears the (western) women is giving up everything (or damn near everything) to be with a Saudi man. More power to you and to those other women, because I don’t know what kind of “love” state I would have to be in to fall for a Muslim man and then move with him to a Islamic country (one in which the woman has few, if any, rights when it comes to dealing with men). That’s courage and trust. I’d have to be “sprung”. LOL.

Thanks for sharing!!
American Bedu, on November 30, 2008 at 9:04 am said:

Glad you enjoyed BCIS.
Khalid, on November 30, 2008 at 10:29 am said:

“This is something I have to continually point out to him on an ongoing basis”
Maybe this is me only, but if my wife will continually point out to me on an ongoing basis what she has done for me or how much she sacrificed for me, I’ll fed up , and that will destroy our relationship rather than strengthen it. Also at the same time, if the husband keep on saying to his wife what he has done for her and the sacrifices he made for her, that too will destroy the relationship,

I believe any couple should have a good understanding of their own relationship . Also both of them have to understand and be fully aware of the sacrifices they’ll make when getting married. If any of the parties (the man, or the woman) thinks s/he cannot make it, then they should stop it from the beginning rather than complaining later.

Don’t tell me please that most girls they fall in love with the man while they are a teenager, so they cannot reason things and they see nothing but love. An 18 year-old girl can think for herself , and knows what will work and what will not work. Girls are as mature as guys, so they are all equal, and they equally know what is good for them and what is not.

Also, the man’s duty should include enlighten the girl whom he is intending to marry, and let her knows all the things she might encounter . I believe there is no force in marriage, hence, both the couple should always know what they are going to embark onto. If they like the journey they are about to venture in , then they can go for it; if they don’t like it, then leave it.

If they agree to get married, non of the husband or the wife should ever tell the other about how much sacrifices I made for you. the sacrifices is for sure well-known by both of them, so saying them again and again, will serve one purpose, in my opinion, which is demeaning the other person.

This also can apply if the couples are from two diff cities. e.g. my bro wanted to get married to a Saudi girl who was living in another city. Her parents really liked my bro and they told their daughter that nowadays it’s rare to find a good man, so don’t let this opportunity slip from your hand. The girl said that she cannot leave her friends and her parents and live in another city, so she didn’t embark in the marriage journey with a guy from another city. Bravo to her. If you cannot, say no; if you can, say yes; If you said yes , then don’t later keep on complaining and nagging.

Happy life to all
Khalid, on November 30, 2008 at 10:32 am said:

sorry I pressed enter by mistake, here is all what I typed :

“This is something I have to continually point out to him on an ongoing basis”
Maybe this is me only, but if my wife will continually point out to me on an ongoing basis what she has done for me or how much she sacrificed for me, I’ll fed up , and that will destroy our relationship rather than strengthen it. Also at the same time, if the husband keep on saying to his wife what he has done for her and the sacrifices he made for her, that too will destroy the relationship.

I believe any couple should have a good understanding of their own relationship . Also both of them have to understand and be fully aware of the sacrifices they’ll make when getting married. If any of the parties (the man, or the woman) thinks s/he cannot make it, then they should stop it from the beginning rather than complaining later.

Don’t tell me please that most girls they fall in love with the man while they are a teenager, so they cannot reason things and they see nothing but love. An 18 year-old girl can think for herself , and knows what will work and what will not work. Girls are as mature as guys, so they are all equal, and they equally know what is good for them and what is not.

Also, the man’s duty should include enlighten the girl whom he is intending to marry, and let her knows all the things she might encounter . I believe there is no force in marriage, hence, both the couple should always know what they are going to embark onto. If they like the journey they are about to venture in , then they can go for it; if they don’t like it, then leave it.

If they agree to get married, non of the husband or the wife should ever tell the other about how much sacrifices I made for you. the sacrifices is for sure well-known by both of them, so saying them again and again, will serve one purpose, in my opinion, which is demeaning the other person.

This also can apply if the couples are from two diff cities. e.g. my bro wanted to get married to a Saudi girl who was living in another city. Her parents really liked my bro and they told their daughter that nowadays it’s rare to find a good man, so don’t let this opportunity slip from your hand. The girl said that she cannot leave her friends and her parents and live in another city, so she didn’t embark in the marriage journey with a guy from another city. Bravo to her. If you cannot, say no; if you can, say yes; If you said yes , then don’t later keep on complaining and nagging.

The love to the person’s family is different than the love to the wife. One of the silly question a person may ask, “Whom do you love more, your wife or your mother/sister?” There is no comparison between a wife and a mother; both should be loved, but each in the way that suits her. I believe a smart man will make his mother number one and his wife number one too. The same with the wife, a good wife will make her husband number 1, their children number 1 and her family number 1. I’m not talking about a miraculous woman/man BTW, what I’m saying I learnt it from many married people whom I got to know .

Happy life to all
American Bedu, on November 30, 2008 at 11:01 am said:

Hi Khalid,

Thanks for sharing your views. I may respectfully disagree that a woman of 18 or even in her 20′s is necessarily mature enough or realistic enough to be fully cognizant of sacrifices or expected changes. Many young women (and men) do indeed believe the “love will conquer all” problems and issues to only be strongly disappointed when reality ultimately sets in.

I receive circa half a dozen private emails each week due to this blog from women who are either engaged to a Saudi or in most cases married a Saudi while he was a student in their home country. This Saudi has since returned back to the Kingdom with his loved one left behind and in most cases, the woman tells me she was never apprised of the need for governmental approval of the marriage in order for her to accompany him…so she is left behind and (im)patiently waiting, hoping and praying that the marriage will indeed become approved. In other cases I am told that the young Saudi claims to not have known he had to have approval before marriage to a foreigner. And sadly in many of these cases children are involved as well.

In the ideal world where people apply logic and do not rule by emotions your comments are right on the mark as to what should be.
Khalid, on November 30, 2008 at 11:46 am said:

“in most cases, the woman tells me she was never apprised of the need for governmental approval of the marriage in order for her to accompany him…so she is left behind and (im) (im) patiently waiting, hoping and praying that the marriage will indeed become approved.”

Carol, In this case the man didn’t enlightened his wife. I mentioned that he should inform her of everything relating to their future life (whether they’ll return to the KSA or nope, where they’ll be living alone or with his family, whether she will work or nope, whether they’ll have children in their first year or later, he should introduce her to his family, and he should know her family well too… and the list goes on) Also the lady should do her homework and try to ask and read everywhere. I’m , myself, if I’m going to marry an American, I’ll do my homework too, and ask here and there and learn more about her culture, religion , family etc.

Marriage is not just a game, it’s as my parents once told me, it’s a long-term relationship and it’s the most vital decision a person takes in his/her life. Since it’s a relationship that will last during the rest of the couple life, so always the person should make sure to choose the partner whom s/he’ll live with happily till death part them.

Also, according to my parents, the partner I choose should be a one whom I’ll want God to keep me with in the after life. So I really hope that my wife is mine on earth and on paradise too (first I ask God that we’ll be in paradise) being in paradise is something I cannot grantee for myself or for anyone else.
American Bedu, on November 30, 2008 at 12:20 pm said:

Khalid, whomever you choose as a wife is going to be a very fortunately woman! As I said, you’ve got your head on straight and eyes open to realities, alhumdillallah!
coolred38, on November 30, 2008 at 4:23 pm said:

Khalid…I would be curious if there has ever been an Arab enlighten his future wife with words such as…”honey, I love you…but my mother and family come first in all matters. I will not support you, defend you…or in anyway come between you or any of them because in my eyes they will always be right…especially my mother. And while she can be critical of you and make your life miserable on a daily basis (and I will be aware of it but will pretend helplessness to the situation or just remain “blind” to it) I will in no way allow you to react in a disrespectful way towards her or any member of my family…in which case I will have to shout and shame you in front of them so they understand I have complete control of my woman. Not cause I want to darling…but its our culture and expected of me…my hands are tied. I love you. welcome to my country.
Lynn, on November 30, 2008 at 5:45 pm said:

Khalid,
Please try to explain to me why my husband’s mother can come before me but my mother should not come before him? Both are mothers that are deserving the top spot or is it only mothers of men that are worthy of all this respect that allah demanded towards mothers?

If your spouse does not come #1 to you should not expect you to be #1 to her. You can go ahead and let your mother think that she is #1 but that would probably just cause issues with her trying to prove it all the time. If your mother does not insist that you treat your wife as #1 in your life then she is not worthy of that #1 spot in my view since she does not seem to be concerned about your happiness.

18 year old girls and boys are NOT at the same maturity level and neither of them are mature enough to make a decision as you described. They do not have a clue what is in store for them down the road and most of them, especially the ones that go around thinking that they are mature and know it all at that magical birthday, will listen to the advice of an elder who has already had the experiences.
American Bedu, on November 30, 2008 at 6:17 pm said:

I think that part of the failure of marriages in the ME (whether arabs married to arabs or not) is due to the structure of the relationship. Granted…relationships can and do fail anywhere and among all nationalities. But the traditions in the Middle East region can indeed make it more challenging for strongest bonds between the husband and wife to form. Blood will always be thicker than water which will make a foreign wife an outsider as well as an arab wife if she is not related (such as a cousin) to her arab spouse. Then the segregation can further impact and draw couples apart. Of course this thankfully does not happen in all cases.
Miriam Mac, on November 30, 2008 at 8:03 pm said:

As a westerner, married to a Saudi, I indeed felt that I gave up so much to be with my husband. And, as was stated above, he resented me so much everytime I reminded him of that fact. So, I don’t ‘nag’ about it anymore. We both gave up things to be together as a couple.
To be happy here, though, I really had to finally ‘move in’ and plan to survive here on a long-term basis and see things through different eyes.
First, one needs to be with others who are happy and content the majority of the time, but are always looking for something else fun to do.
Second, one has to keep in touch with others, in similar situations, as well as those who have failed here and learn lessons that might help you in your own marriage.
Third, one has to look at the entertaining side of this type of relationship and laugh with others a bit. I mean, most of us have a little bit of a rebel/wild streak in us to have made the decision to come to KSA in the first place.
Fourth, one has to have a plan of action should something happens in the relationship unexpectedly. For example, if he starts another family (which is getting to be very common these days), and you find out about it, you need to be prepared what kind of action you will take and discuss these things in the beginning of your relationship. If you are going to accept the situation, then you need to remember why you are accepting it and go with it. If you are going to reject this situation, then you need to start planning for an ‘escape fund’ from the beginning of your relationship so that you have somewhere to go to if/when it happens to you.
Fifth, You have to really want to be together and make things work out….and he has to want it also. Obvious, but many people just won’t throw in the towel, even after years of unhappiness.
Sixth, You have to be patient if your partner changes. Many people run away when their partner becomes religious, for example. But, as quickly as it happens, they are soon back to the person they were before….and many times for the better. It’s something that perhaps they never got to work through while growing up.
My grandmother told me years ago that she witnessed so many people divorcing during her 80+ years, only to regret it 6 months to a year later when they had cooled down. She advised me to go back and try 6 months longer….and maybe another 6 months after that when we were having a particular difficult period in our marriage. “You can always leave, but you can never go back if you end it. So, do everything you can to make it work out now. Later, you’ll never have any regrets if you finally decide to leave.” This advice has helped us through almost 30 years of marriage and I think it’s good advice for all married couples whether multi-cultural or not.

Expat women coming to the Kingdom need to know how things work here within their own situation as no two are exactly the same….even within the same family. I highly advise them not to have children during the first 3 to 5 years of marriage here to see how they, and their husbands, will be and to see if they can cope in this part of the world.
American Bedu, on November 30, 2008 at 8:45 pm said:

MA — thank you so much for your comment as you have so many experiences and have seen much more than most of us given your time and experiences here. And congratulations to you and your husband for your 30 plus years of marriage! It’s wonderful to hear of couples (whether bi-cultural marriage or not) these days who make it to that point.
Khalid, on November 30, 2008 at 8:55 pm said:

coolred38:
As I’ve said previously, the man has to introduce his future wife to his family — specially to his parents. (This is a must) She should know how he deals with his family, and she should ask to her heart’s content whatever she wanna ask about his family and his relationship with them. Then she can decide if this is the man she wants. Also the same applies to the wife, she has to introduce the man to her family…..

I liked this part Coolred:
“which case I will have to shout and shame you in front of them so they understand I have complete control of my woman…..I love you.”
Please Coolred tell whom ever say such thing to go to hell with his “I love you”. Love is not by saying words, love is actions and words. You cannot say to someone I love you and your actions to that person are saying something else.

Lynn:
Why would I explain something I didn’t say? I didn’t say that the husband mother should come first, and I didn’t say the husband should come first before the wife’s mother. True, Lynn, both mothers deserve the top spot, and as I said the love to our mothers cannot be compared to our love to our husbands/wives/children. All of them deserve the top though, but each one with the way that is appropriate for her/him.

Also, Lynn, it’s true as you said “that If your spouse does not come #1 to you should not expect you to be #1 to her”.

The advantage of being in a family that care about its member is asking for advice. Why do we have grandparents/parents/uncles/aunts/elder brothers&sisters? The younger member of the family (whether 18 year-old, younger or older) should always consult others and learn from their experiences.

All the Best
Lynn, on November 30, 2008 at 10:34 pm said:

Sorry Khalid,
I guess I misunderstood this:
‘I believe a smart man will make his mother number one and his wife number one too. The same with the wife, a good wife will make her husband number 1′

Probably because you can’t have 2 be #1 so then we are left with #1a. and #1b. and it appeared that the husband got top billing for the wife but the wife got second #1 billing for the husband.

Speaking as a wife (and a mother) I’ll tell you now. If you want to have a happy wife do NOT ever tell her that your mother is #1 in your heart. She knows that she will have to come second to your mother when it is reasonable and you wouldn’t want a wife that would disagree with that anyway. If your wife needs you more at the moment your mother would, or should, understand and wait until you are available and vice versa.
coolred38, on November 30, 2008 at 10:47 pm said:

I agree with Lynn…we all understand that mothers hold a special place in our hearts…but to have it continually thrown in your face is just a hurtful and demeaning thing…to make matters worse…your mother is almost hands down never given the same respect and power in your life and marriage…as his mother is given and is expected to get from you…so that also creates friction…

Khalid…in many cases its not possible to meet his family before marriage…as many times he does not indicate that returning to his country is something he will decide to do once your married…thats quite often a bombshell released after marriage….some women agree to it cause they want to…others feel pressured into it just to keep the marriage intact….either way she is suddenly thrust among a whole family who can either help her or hinder her in her adjustment to her new life. The “happy ever after” stories tend to get lost among the national best seller lists of horrible failures…Im just saying.
INAL, on December 1, 2008 at 1:58 am said:

Two things we may have touched upon that are also factors in a mixed marriage are:

Boys and girls are NOT men and women…there is a long road to travel before that is actually achieved- age, menses, and such are not the markers of adulthood. In the ME there is a “perpetual minor” complex that rarely allows you to make decisions nor cultivate them.

The second is-let’s face it- Arabs have a tendency for the most part to have consanguienous marriages…if you are the first cousin your mother in law is your aunt or uncle and those familial ties will continue regardless of your status in the family-then again maybe not since “love” is not defined in terms other non blood relations… Which may indicate where some of us have problems in our marriages to Arab- nothing will give us blood status ranks…we may always be the foreign bride for some…and maybe not for those families who truly don’t marry their cousins.

I wonder what Arab marriage would be like if a few things happened simultaneous (hypothetical here please):
-Arabs cannot marry their cousins ever
-Arabs cannot live in the family ever
-Arab families are to have hands-off policy with the newlweds always
-Arab men can only have one wife

In spanish there is a saying:”El que se casa, casa quiere”…meaning that the one who marries wants their own home…in all senses of the word.
Brooke AKA Ummbadier, on December 1, 2008 at 5:04 am said:

Khalid-Most Americans (even those who become Muslim) are under the belief that there parents do not have any involvement in their martial affairs. So often a convert won’t even have met their spouse’s parents-especially if the parents are in another country. They will have no idea or even an inclination to ask if they are marrying into a family of “practicing” Muslims, kind or not. They think it is irrelevant. You can imagine what a surprise it would be to then relocate and find that you are 5th, 9th or whatever on your spouse’s list of priorities.
Lynn-It isn’t necessary to tell a wife she comes second to the mother, it is a part of the deen. This could also be a shock to an uninformed convert. But that does not give license to hurtful behavior, it has to do with technicalities and responsibilities like caring for your parents in their old age, making sure your mom makes hajj, making sure her debts are paid, etc.
Nader, on December 1, 2008 at 6:46 am said:

From the above discussions, it seems that the Saudi man will (almost) never understand the needs of a non-Saudi wife, while the non-Saudi wife will (almost) never understand the role of her Saudi husband’s mother. Therefore, to avoid the problem:
Saudi man, Do NOT marry a non-Saudi woman!
American Bedu, on December 1, 2008 at 8:38 am said:

Nader…and here I wanted to introduce you to one of my friends! (smile)
Khalid, on December 1, 2008 at 10:04 am said:

Lynn, I didn’t mean that a person should say it verbally on the face of the mum or the wife .. I’m just talking about the concept here, so I agree with you. They are #1 without A, B or C.

coolred, I totally disagree that a man or a woman get to married someone without knowing her/his family. If I wanna marry a woman who doesn’t introduce me to her family, I’ll take this to be that she is not proud of me and she doesn’t respect me. The woman should feel the same too. it seems that some of the marriages mentioned here happened without the parents of one of the spouses attending the wedding. If this is the case, this, in my opinion, is nothing but a temporary marriage. I’m completely against such kind of marriage. Honesty from both spouses is a very crucial factor for a successful marriage, don’t you think? Unfortunately it seems, some of the Saudis were not honest with their American spouses.

Nader, may you allow me to edit your statement? … Thanks for giving me the permission

From the above discussions, it seems that the Saudi man will (almost)
never understand the needs of a non-Saudi(American) wife, while the non-Saudi(American) wife will (almost) never understand the role of her Saudi husband’s mother. Therefore, to avoid the problem:
Saudi man, Do NOT marry a non-Saudi(American) woman!

Since more than 90% of the non-Saudis who commented here are American women, so I replaced (non-Saudi) with American Ironically, as far as I know, most Saudis who are married to non-Saudis, are married to Americans. I don’t have any statistic to support this; I’d be interested if someone can provide any statistic. I saw Saudis married to women from the following countries: (the UK, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Syria, Morocco, Lebanon, Egypt, France, Korea, Mexico, Tunis, Jordan and from other countries) But by far, the majority I happened to know or hear about , are married to Americans.

Some food for thought: 3 guys told me never think of marrying an American or a Canadian (only one of the 3 guys was Saudi who is married to a Mexican, and the other 2 were non-Saudi). They said if you want to marry someone not from your country, think of a south American or an Asian, but never to a North American. Last summer I remembered their words, and I thought to observe my surrounding. I found many Americans walking and holding hands with, what looked to me like, Japanese/Korean women. So if the Americans get married to Japanese women as an example, whom the poor Japanese men marry — do they marry American women …

I rambled a lot I guess , so it’s the time for me to hit the sack All the Best to everyone reading my ramblings
American Bedu, on December 1, 2008 at 10:51 am said:

Khalid,

Thanks for sharing and I enjoy your ramblings as they provided added thought and perspective from a Saudi guy!

Let me assure you that while one does seem to hear of a number of high incidences of problems with marriage between a Saudi man and an American woman, there are also a number of happy stable marriages out there between Saudi men and American women. Just beware…as Americans our tendency is to likely be more outspoken and confront issues (positive and negative) more so than those from Eastern traditions and backgrounds.

Inshallah, my own husband remains pleased with his choice to take an American wife! (big grin)
Nader, on December 1, 2008 at 1:04 pm said:

Carol,
That friend of yours has certainly NOT read this post!
Has she?
This post kindda sets the record stright for me.
American Bedu, on December 1, 2008 at 1:09 pm said:

Nader – this post has touched upon an emotional topic and please do not interpret it to mean that every marriage of a Saudi to an American is doomed for failure! Every marriage will have its up and downs. But yes…the bicultural marriages will indeed have additional challenges that will need to be faced and hopefully have been addressed.

Of course if this post has helped you realize that a bicultural relationship will not be for you…or consideration of marriage to an American, then it is good to recognize and acknowledge that!

It all boils down to the individuals themselves…their compatibilities, their values, their goals in life, their ability to adapt, be flexible when necessary and last but certainly not least their ability to communicate with one another.
Miriam Mac, on December 1, 2008 at 3:20 pm said:

From our own Saudi family here…we have 3 Saudi brothers married to 3 American women and 1 Saudi brother married to a Saudi woman. Over 25 years for 3 of us and no divorces yet….so there is hope for others out there! : )

I think that much of the trouble between Saudi men and their American wives…that I have seen since I came here….has been with the Saudi man getting in the way of his wife’s freedom that she’s accustomed to. We American women are used to running our own lives….going where we want when we want, shopping and traveling, and attending events when and wherever we want, and making friends of our own…and being trusted to do so.

When a Saudi man tries to take that freedom away by limiting her travel with her children, or if he tries to impose another wife, (or more!), or a secret wife….or a wife he already had that he sort of forgot to tell her about, the American wife’s reaction is usually to run away and never come back, much to the bewilderment of the Saudi husband. We Americans are very easy-going….to a point!

The Saudi man loves the independence of the American woman when he meets and falls in love with her. But when he marries her, he wants her to ‘obey’ him like the women of his own country. Rarely is that going to happen…even if she converts.

And if he starts telling his wife that his mother is #1 in his life, (even if she is), and that she is #2, 5th, or 9th in his, the American woman will most probably not understand this concept and may tell him to go take a flying leap.

The Saudi men that have been happily married to American women for over 20 years here, (that I know), are all quite secure with themselves. They don’t try to be someone they’re not. They do their best to try to make their wife comfortable here, and they don’t give her a difficult time when she wants to go to visit her parents with or without the children. They usually don’t keep her from working or getting involved in the community. They keep the difficult relatives away from her as much as possible and try to keep peace in the family. Most are very good muslims as well and are very good to their children. They like spending time as a family together and tend to be good providers. The women try to make their husbands happy in return….but most keep their own culture….even if they convert.

So, I wouldn’t say not to marry an American woman. But, if you aren’t like the description above, please don’t have children with one!
American Bedu, on December 1, 2008 at 3:28 pm said:

Wow Miriam…I didn’t realize your BIL’s (at least some of them) also married Americans!

You raise good points. I agree that speaking as an American we are indeed pretty adaptable, flexible and as a general rule, easy going. But fair warning to a Saudi man, do not try to deceive or “pull the wool over” an American wife for in most cases, that is when she will explode…just remember the old phrase “hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.”

One of the sad cases that I am aware of is a Saudi man that literally told his American wife that she will have to be self-sufficient and supporting because he has to take care of his family…and as it turned out, yes this man also had a Saudi wife in the wings whom he forgot to tell the American wife about.

Which raises another point… for the Saudi and non-Saudi who meet outside of the Kingdom, it is very difficult to know about the Saudi’s situation. I’m sorry to say this but most of them will claim not to be married or divorced and after winning the woman’s heart and she comes to KSA it is to find a different scenario.
Miriam Mac, on December 1, 2008 at 11:05 pm said:

Yep, that’s why I say….until you have lived here a few years (married to a Saudi), and have met and survived his imediate and extended family as well as his transformation back into the culture, don’t have any kids with him! The woman can always leave, but the kids get stuck in the turmoil and it is heartbreaking to watch the fallout. Saudi men think that they can change their wife, and American women think that they can still be the independent beings like they were in the states. It really is a balancing act and not an easy one at that. Tread carefully if you’re going to take the plunge….and keep the lines of communication open.
Susie of Arabia, on December 2, 2008 at 5:46 pm said:

Khalid –
It’s not as if I am reminding my husband every single day of the sacrifices my son and I made to come to live in Saudi Arabia. But there are times when he forgets what our lives were like in America compared to now in Saudi Arabia – and he thinks that we should happily accept the restrictions and limitations that we now face. These are the times when I remind him – it’s not like I’m a nag!!!
And I might add that I mainly have to remind him of our sacrifices on my son’s behalf – my husband is (I feel) unreasonably hard on him at times to fall into line as the perfect Muslim teenager – when in fact, my son is an all American boy. Plucking a teenage boy out of America at almost 15 years of age and dropping him in a place like Saudi Arabia is not an easy adjustment for the child. I personally have had a much easier adjustment than my son. My only real issues are having to rely on my hubby for transportation and the fact that there is just not much at all for a woman like me to do here. Thank goodness I have hobbies!
American Bedu, on December 21, 2008 at 9:04 pm said:

Chicago Sun Times recently picked up this post:

http://www.post-trib.com/lifestyles/blogentries/index.html?bbPostId=B6kcqoGH9Pf8Bzn7nRZ5sNNoB7NB5hwPN0dYCz5uYKLXxYrBf
caraboska, on April 23, 2009 at 4:51 am said:

Someone here mentioned Saudi men (and other Muslim men) being allowed to marry women of the Book. There’s a little problem if they do that: both Christians and Jews adhere to the Bible, which states that a man shall leave father and mother and cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. The Gospel makes it clear that this is to be viewed as the definition of marriage.

In the circles I have traveled in since I became a Christian 29 years ago or so, at least those in the States, they take this very literally and if a pastor discovers that the couple plan to live with either set of in-laws after marriage, he will simply refuse to perform the marriage.

I don’t know what the attitude of Jewish rabbis is, but it’s the same Scripture, the same principle: that it is religiously impermissible to put your parents above your spouse. This sounds like a very good reason for a person of the Book to avoid marrying the vast majority of Muslims – unless by some miracle they find a Muslim who is on the same page as they are.

There is also the point that many Christians believe that they are prohibited from marrying non-Christians, though if they do marry a non-Christian, the marriage is considered a ‘real marriage’. The more Orthodox among the Jewish people, on the other hand, believe that any marriage with a non-Jew is invalid. Any children are considered legitimate, but otherwise, it is not a marriage at all, but fornication.

And while we are on the subject of children, Islam treats religion as being taken from one’s father, Judaism treats religion as being taken from one’s mother. So a child with a Muslim father and a Jewish mother will be considered Muslim under Islamic law, and Jewish under Jewish law. Hmm.

The case with Christians is a little different, partly because there are differing views on how one becomes a Christian. Among those who practice baptism of infants, the interpretation is that any child of a Christian of either sex is entitled to baptism, at which point s/he becomes a Christian child.

In the case of those who practice believer’s (adult) baptism, any family with one Christian parent is considered a Christian family, but the choice to become a Christian is ultimately the child’s. As the saying goes: ‘No one is “born a Christian” – only “born again a Christian”.’ This means that one becomes a Christian only by personally adopting the Christian faith.

I remember once receiving a veiled marriage proposal from a very conservative Muslim who was even willing to sign a marriage contract in which he would, among other things, give up his right even to expect obedience to his wife – much less to beat her for failure to obey. He was willing to accept a mahr from his wife, and the two mahrs would go into a joint investment account whose purpose would be to buy a second apartment if that became necessary.

He was willing to do almost anything – except to permit his wife to teach their children her religion and leave the choice of religion up to the child. Then the exclamation points appeared on the screen. The final nail was ‘what kind of common spiritual life can a Muslim create with a person who believes Jesus is MUCH more than just a prophet?’ He said, ‘It would be very difficult – I wouldn’t like to do it myself…’

Now, he was conservative enough that he would only converse at length with a woman for purposes of dawa or discussion of marriage. And since it was evident neither was going to happen, I basically never heard from him again after that day …

Considering all this, I have a hard time seeing why Islam would permit its adherents to marry persons of the Book.
Chiara, on April 23, 2009 at 5:44 am said:

Islam allows Muslim men to marry Daughters of the Book of good character, because: 1) Islam is patrilineal so the children will automatically be Muslim; and, 2) Judaism and Christianity are the two monotheistic Abrahamic religions preceeding the message of Allah via Mohamed, so the condition of belief in the monotheistic deity God/Allah is fulfilled.

Not all Christians interpret the Bible in the same way, read the same Bible, or in the case of Roman Catholics even read the Bible much (they read the Missel based on the latin Vulgate). “Leaving mother and father” and “becoming one flesh” are not necessarily interpreted literally, even for most Christians.

In my experience even the most “non-practising” of Muslims expects to raise his children as Muslims, much like even the most “non-practising” of Jews has a bris for a son.

As for the patrilineal Islam and the matrilineal Judaism, the child of a Muslim father and a Jewish mother, is either the most Abrahamic combination possible (especially if sent to attend an at least nominally Christian school) or the most difficult to label. As I have mentioned elsewhere, my own favourite (ironic) example is Moammar Gaddafi (brought t o my attention by some of his compatriots).
caraboska, on April 23, 2009 at 7:01 am said:

Of course, I understand that Islam is patrilineal. But the point is, why would it be permissible to marry daughters of the Book when it is apparently a precondition for those daughters *not* to be serious about their religion and their Scripture in order to agree to such a marriage? It seems that would defeat the purpose of having only serious-minded monotheists…

A propos of Catholics, I live in a 95% Catholic country. In the past 20 years or so, they have started reading the Bible. But it is indeed a different one from the Protestant Bible. The New Testament is the same for Catholics and Protestants, but aside from that, Protestants only accept the Jewish Tanakh (Torah, Prophets, Writings). Catholics add some extra books on top of that. They have also begun using versions translated from the original languages (Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic) instead of from the Latin Vulgate. The Missal, on the other hand, is not a translation of the Bible, but rather the Catholic prayer book.

But all that aside, when I speak of Christians, I am talking about serious-minded, conscious practitioners of the faith. I think that among those, you will find relatively little difference in their attitude on the issues at hand.
American Bedu, on April 23, 2009 at 7:47 am said:

Very interesting comments from both caraboska and chiara. I look forward to seeing how this dialogue plays out. I do hope others will join in with their view as well.
coolred38, on April 23, 2009 at 9:53 am said:

i have to agree with Caraboska…in order for Muslims and People of the Book to agree to marry…someone has to be rather weak in their faith and practice…

Also, I find it strange that a nonMuslim who IS strong in her faith (or his faith) would agree to raise the children Muslim…if your strong in you faith why would you agree to raising your children in another religion?

And I might add that the Quran gives Muslim men permission to marry “chaste” women of the book…as well as the Muslim man having lead a chaste life…but we all know that rarely is the case…so why then is the Muslim man adamant his children are raised Muslim by his nonMuslim wife creating a complex and complicated environment for future children?

Doesnt make sense to me…but then these days religion just makes my head hurt the more I think about it.
caraboska, on April 23, 2009 at 4:20 pm said:

I don’t know enough Muslim men to be able to judge the proportions of them who remain chaste until marriage. I do remember a young Palestinian man I met once upon a time while in language school where I now live, he was about 18 as I recall, and he told me he was saving himself for his wife, and hoping he’d be able to hold out… He got married at quite a young age (his dad told him he was crazy to do it – he was not much over 20 at the time) to a local girl who was a Muslim convert. He had an older brother who was perhaps less chaste (I don’t know the exact details and don’t really care to) who last time I checked had also married a local girl, but she did not convert to Islam.

Actually, I have a couple of Muslim male e-friends who are probably both saving themselves for their wives. So that’s actually a pretty good record. But then again, maybe there are others who are less chaste who have just chosen not to hang around when I’ve done things like refuse to send them a pic because I didn’t have one of me in hijab (I may not be a Muslim, but I’m not going to help them violate the principles of their religion by looking at my hair…). So the company Muslim company I keep probably self-selects itself so that I only see the best for the most part rather than the worst.

Coolred is quite right, however, to ask why a person strong in their faith would agree to have their children raised in another religion. The only way that could happen is if the person saw no essential conflict between the two religions. And the only way to do that would be to assume that the fact that we all worship the same God is the only important thing, and the rest is just details. Even the exact concept of God – whether we are strictly monotheistic or we admit multiplicity in unity – has to be ‘just a detail’ for it to work. I think I’d say pretty much the same thing my old Egyptian acquaintance said: ‘It would be very difficult – I wouldn’t like to do it myself.’

Am I allowed to ask why your head hurts? This all reminds me of an incident when I was in a peer counseling group once upon a time as a teenager. We went around the room saying what we were there to work on, and one guy said that his big problem was that he was too involved in religion. Now, I had just recently become a Christian at the time, so my reaction was something to the effect of ‘That’s a bad thing???’ Yes, it’s true, if you fall in with the wrong company religion can make your life very difficult. But I dealt with it by studying my religion and eventually changing my company to better fit with what I found out.

Another thing: I love reading testimonies of faith from people who have chosen a particular religion (as opposed to being brought up in it). Doesn’t even matter which religion. I just love to find out what people like about their chosen religion, what kind of person prefers this or that religion.

Sometimes, though, I am saddened to see that people who used to identify as Christians say that they didn’t find this, that or the other thing in Christianity, so they changed their religion – because most often it turns out that I myself am finding in Christianity what they were looking for. So that in principle it wasn’t necessary for them to go as far as to change their religion in order to find what they were looking for. Maybe people from other religions feel the same thing about their religion and those who choose some other way.

All this by way of giving you some hope that it is possible to think about religion without getting a headache…
caraboska, on April 23, 2009 at 4:23 pm said:

PS I’m puzzled about this whole business of assuming that a child is any particular religion at all in Islam, until they make their own decision. Of course, one teaches one’s child the principle of one’s faith but doesn’t the Qur’an say there is no compulsion in religion?
radha, on April 23, 2009 at 4:55 pm said:

One question , how can a non-muslim Woman raise a child to be muslim? I’m one such and even if my husband jumped up and down wanting me to raise them as muslim how could i ? i have no clue what it entails to be one so what am i going to teach them? and how?
So unless a non-muslim woman converts, accepts , learns and lives among muslims that’s not going to happen. Again this is just my experiance. both my kids have been around my very hindu parents and relatives a lot and when they were young my parents cared for them while we were at work for a few yers, so they imbibed the hindu traditions and culture. well we did move to saudi, but lack of co-operation from the inlaws didn’t help them learn that side of the religion. but i sure would like to ask those muslim men who marry non-converting ,non-muslim how on earth they expect the mom’s to raise their kids muslim ? my advise if you’re so particular that your kids get your religion ONLY ,then marry some one who practices your religion.
I have never regretted marrying my saudi even for a single minute ( well apart from times when he’s sloppy – then i regretted marrying at all ) I’m very strong in my faith, how strong my spouse is in his faith is betw him and his god.

There are plenty of happy families , mixed religions /cultures/nationalities but again these cases don’t make for sensational news hence you don’t hear of it.
radha, on April 23, 2009 at 5:03 pm said:

Oh and we strongly beleive that ” there is only 1 god and we just worship him in diff forms” and like someone else said to me the rest are just details.
My daughter of ocurse believes praying to ALL the gods gives her a better chance at her exam results
of course i try to tell neither Ram nor allah nor chruist like lazy humans , and that her exam results are not exactly on top of god’s list of problems to solve in this world.
caraboska, on April 23, 2009 at 5:04 pm said:

Wait, you are Hindu and you moved to Saudi with your Muslim husband? And no one made a fuss that you don’t fit the official definition of a Person of the Book? They have treated your marriage as valid, no one has tried to prosecute you all for being alone together, cohabiting etc.? Wow. I would have thought that would be a problem…

Another thing: I have heard that Hinduism in particular has a unique kind of tolerance for the beliefs of other religions. Do you think that has made you more able to live with your Saudi husband than might have been the case if you practiced some other religion?
radha, on April 23, 2009 at 6:06 pm said:

caraboska – ok you’re making me squirm now
we were married both hindu and muslim ceremonies outside saudi . My marriage was officially recongnized ( few call my non-conversion deception ) , we lived there for just a few years, but no , no one tried to prosecute us there, our kids were born outside saudi. I was ok in saudi for the most part, didn’t bother me much, yeah feel bad sometimes that his family was not more receptive, but hey mine make up for it ( in sheer numbers i must say).
I’m not sure about a tolerence unique to hinduism, but yes we were taught to follow the hindu way of life and tolerance to differences in belief . To each his own . My spouse is very adjusting too ,i have never been asked to convert ever. So that made it easier to accept his religion i guess. and he may not pray in a temple but he participates in all festivals and functions.we’re just like any other indian american family. Our prayer room has the indian idols + lamp+ koran.We pray before we leave in the morning, i light the lamp and fold my hand’s in prayer , he does his way. it’s funny but both religions prostrate before god, maybe that’s offensive to some but again after 21 yrs we don’t really care. Kids expect the lamp to be lit that’s all, they say the prayer i taught so i guess hindu. but they pray with their dad too sometimes. most of thetime, they wait till i light the lamp quickly prostrate and run to get the bus
caraboska, on April 23, 2009 at 6:22 pm said:

Oh, Radha, I wasn’t trying to make you squirm. I was talking about your life in Saudi. I wouldn’t expect anyone would question the validity of your marriage in India, though I admit to being surprised that you had both a Muslim and a Hindu wedding. I was talking about in Saudi. But it still sounds like you have had much less trouble than I would have expected.

The bit about the lamp sounds almost…. Jewish. They have a custom that to start off their Sabbath (day of rest), the lady of the house lights candles and says a special blessing over them. I’ve sometimes thought of lighting candles every day because I believe every day is holy.

What I meant about the tolerance in Hinduism is that idea of the divine or divinity existing in different forms, so that a Hindu can say ‘Oh, that’s the Christian form of divinity, oh, that’s the Islamic form of divinity, etc. – but hey, it all comes from the same place, right?’ Not every religion has the same sort of attitude towards other religions.
radha, on April 23, 2009 at 9:51 pm said:

caraboska – You have to have a muslim ceremony – for the saudi athorities. Unfortunately, money and Wasta can gets a lot accomplished in saudi .
Chiara, on April 23, 2009 at 10:41 pm said:

Caraboska

“But all that aside, when I speak of Christians, I am talking about serious-minded, conscious practitioners of the faith. I think that among those, you will find relatively little difference in their attitude on the issues at hand.”

I am not sure whom you are considering here, but it sounds as if it is a rather narrow definition, and an elite group, or else you should volunteer to make alt the pesky denominations see the light and conform–unfortunately many have tried and failed, what with each denomination firmly believing they have the best interpretation. If this was code for some specific group it might be helpful to the discussion to identify it.

“…, why would it be permissible to marry daughters of the Book when it is apparently a precondition for those daughters *not* to be serious about their religion and their Scripture in order to agree to such a marriage? ”

It is not in the least a precondition to not be serious about one’s own religion and Scripture. The only precondition is to be a member of the faith, and to be of good character (including “chaste”). While one may be required to provide documentation to prove one’s faith (baptismal certificate, pictures of the bris/brit), no one I know, including myself, has been required to do so, no one has had their character questioned, nor their chastity checked.

No official asks about religiosity, belief systems, transubstantiation, Augustinian vs Calvinist predestination, Duns Scotus vs Thomas Aquinas (how many angels can dance on the head of a pin), or preferred Mass (tridentine, pontifical high, low, folk). No one even asks how you will raise the children, only having you agree to an islamic marriage contract that includes that as part of the “preamble”.

It might well be argued that those who are strongest in their faith, and most knowledgeable about their religion are the best suited to marry outside their religion . As a reminder, one can marry outside one’s religion by being a High Anglican married to a Low Anglican, a Presbyterian married to a Baptist, a Baptist married to a Catholic, a Roman Catholic to an Orthodox Catholic, etc. and wars have been faught over such.

A Roman Catholic Missal is more than just a book of prayer; it contains elements of the New and Old Testaments, and integrates them with the calendar celebrations. While it is different than the Vulgate they share Latin sources. Most older highly practising Catholics have never read anything else, including all my paternal family who attended Roman Catholic Schools, served in the Church throughout their lives, and are oblivious to the Old Testament stories (not books) that Protestants, or Catholics who attended public schools like my maternal family, know and enjoy. The younger generations similarly are Missal owners rather than Bible readers.

Again, I am not sure of the context of your statement about the Biblical readings of Catholics in your country. However, 2 of the most egregious religious experiences I have had involved 1) born again Christians evangelizing an already Christian Indian (South Asian) population, and 2) Protestant missionaries evangelizing Roman Catholics in Costa Rica. However, I recognize I am not in favour of proselytizing generally, and I know many scholars (including myself) who read the Bible in various versions for a variety of reasons.
caraboska, on April 23, 2009 at 10:42 pm said:

Oh, I see… Learn something new every day. I guess it just wouldn’t have crossed my mind that wasta or other such means could make a difference in this kind of a matter. When it joined the EU, the country I live in had the dubious distinction of being dubbed the most corrupt among the ‘entering class’ of acceding nations. But even by that standard, I must say, this takes the cake…
Chiara, on April 23, 2009 at 10:56 pm said:

Radha–Stop squirming–you and your family are among my interfaith exemplars!

I fail to see the problem with a non-Muslim mother raising Muslim children, as long as she is in agreement and does so “in good faith” so to speak. Most often in these situations the women are educated, and can educate themselves further about the religion, as well as relying on the father, Muslim family members, the Muslim community, books, and the mosque even in countries where Muslims are in a minority. To me this is no less likely to produce “good Muslims” than all of the wonderful uneducated Muslim mothers who transmit their faith without much formal knowledge or ability to separate Islam from cultural norms.

Jehan El Sadat (whatever one may think of her politics) was raised a practising Muslim by a Christian mother in Egypt, where she attended Christian girls’ schools, before attending the University of Cairo.

Most of the Muslims I know have attended the academically best schools their parents could manage, including Catholic missionary schools.

Re: chastity
Most of the Muslim men I know are not chaste–must be the noxious influence of the French (or Italians, or Spanish–but not the Brits ), served a la sauce americaine .
caraboska, on April 23, 2009 at 11:57 pm said:

My previous comment was addressed to Radha.

Chiara,

In general, when I use that formulation, I mean generic, Bible-believing Christians of any denomination. Normally, I also mean people who are devoid of church tradition, relying only on the Bible (as interpreted by the Holy Spirit – i.e. the interpretation takes place in the context of their personal relationship with God, and their relationship with God takes place in the context of the Bible) as their ultimate source as well as measure of any other religious input.

In this case, when we are referring to the narrow issues of whether or not a marriage between a Christian and a non-Christian is religiously valid, as well as the ‘official religion’ of the children of such a union, I also include the more traditionally-minded members of such churches as Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Uniate. We all know that there are vast differences among these populations and the generic Bible-believing crowd, but the view on these particular marriage and family related issues is not one of them.

There are different views on whether it is permissible for a Christian to marry a non-Christian. The vast majority of the generic Bible believers believe it is an act of disobedience to God, even if the resulting marriage is valid in the sense of not representing fornication. The traditionally minded Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican et al. types are more permissive, but it is my understanding that in principle, you need a special dispensation to do it – that it is by no means viewed as something to be encouraged.

Do I understand you correctly to be stating that the preamble of the Islamic aqd always, as it were by definition, stipulates that the children are to be raised as Muslims? It seems to me that affixing one’s signature to such a contract would amount to an agreement to raise one’s children as Muslims. If it isn’t that, then it amounts to perjury.

And one thing I do know: the Bible does command parents to teach their children the principles of their religion. And to the best of my knowledge, everyone in the generic Bible-believing crowd, as well as the ones in the traditionally-minded circles I have mentioned, would regard it as disobedience to God to do otherwise.

So that *practically speaking*, I think it is legitimate to say that one has to basically disregard the Bible’s teaching about certain matters in order to agree to the conditions of a ‘normative’ Islamic aqd. I don’t think disregarding the Bible’s teaching qualifies as ‘taking the Bible seriously’. And since the Christian faith is in principle based on the Bible… let’s say that there are many people out there who are even very serious about their faith who do not take the Bible as their ultimate source or measure, who know why they believe what they believe and are therefore to be respected – but it is still open to discussion whether they should call themselves Christians.

It is my understanding, on the other hand, that if a Muslim were to affix his signature to an aqd stipulating that his non-Muslim wife will be permitted to teach the children her faith, and the choice of religion is to be left up to the child, he would be considered an unbeliever in any conservative Muslim circles – including in Saudi.

As far as Catholic use of the Bible is concerned, almost no one in my adopted country (Poland) uses Latin anymore. A Catholic translation of the Bible from the original languages was performed in the 1960s in honor of the 1000th birthday of the Polish state, and I think an ecumenical translation was carried out ca. 2002.

The only other book I have seen Catholics reading is the breviary. I am talking here, for the most part, about people in religious orders who read the daily office (which for those who are not familiar with it, is sort of the Christian equivalent of the Islamic salat prayers – the prayer times are pretty much the same, except that there are more of them: 7 or even 8).

Otherwise, Catholic people – at least in those in, say, their mid-40s and younger – do read the Bible here. They have prayer group meetings where the Bible is studied, spiritual gifts of various kinds are manifested, etc. – the content of which is almost identical to similar meetings among Protestants. And all this with official Church sanction, even on Church property.

The problem that Protestants have with the Catholic Church is its attitude toward tradition. Many view certain parts of that tradition as contrary to the Bible. And since some of these parts have to do with such important items as the doctrine of salvation (put simply for those who are not familiar with ‘the lingo’: What is salvation? How does a person become saved? What are the conditions to go to heaven?), Protestants believe that in adhering to these portions of tradition, Catholics at very least risk not being saved. Some even believe that any person who 100% believes the official Catholic doctrine in these matters cannot be saved and go to heaven.

But it is more general an objection than that, because Protestants in particular also view as a form of idolatry the fact that Catholics are willing to accept as authoritative a tradition that teaches things contrary to the Bible. And since that’s the first of the Ten Commandments: ‘And the Lord said, “I am the Lord your God… You shall have no other gods beside or before me,” I think it is entirely understandable that Protestants would see the need to preach to Catholics.

Lest you misunderstand me, I also believe that there is no compulsion in religion, and that it is a form of idolatry to use any kind of coercion to get someone to accept a given religion. It involves attempting to place oneself in a position with respect to another person that should be occupied only by God. As it is written [The Lord said], ‘I have revealed, I have saved, I have proclaimed – I and not another.’ So while I personally do believe in the necessity of personal witness, I do see that there is a very fine line to be walked – one that, unfortunately, nearly all evangelical Christians habitually cross. Which makes them idolaters.

I know, that’s pretty inflammatory rhetoric, but I think I have explained why I view the matter in this way. It is probably also no surprise that I am a ‘recovering evangelical’ – one who fled that circle for the sake of my spiritual welfare, and have ended up among the Quakers. Although I attend a Lutheran church where I am, because if I have to attend a non-Quaker church where they have pastors and preaching at the services, I’m still enough of a nice Presbyterian girl to pick the one that has the best sermons….

As far as versions of the Bible are concerned, I finally got sick a bit over a year ago of wondering which translation of the Bible was the best to use (especially for Scripture memory purposes), and began to learn Greek so I could read the New Testament in the original. Then started working on Hebrew, but interrupted it because of work-related time considerations.

And if you think about it, the Orthodox Jews start teaching their kids Hebrew at age 3, if I am not mistaken traditional Muslims start teaching their kids Arabic at the same age. I had to wonder why Christians aren’t doing the same thing… There may be some traditionally-minded folks who think that only pastors are allowed to do this, so they take a dim view of my activities, but do I care? I am responsible for myself and the content of my faith, so I took action.

So that’s the context, long-winded I know, but insha’allah substantial enough to warrant it.

God bless you

caraboska
Chiara, on April 24, 2009 at 12:37 am said:

Caraboska

Thank you for providing the context of your views.

I would only caution that Catholicism in the former Soviet Socialist Republics is in a particular evolution because of their particular history. Latin has fallen out of favour (except with the Pope, “Mel Gibson”, and those who prefer the Tridentine Mass) but that doesn’t change the source materials, for the “vulgar” (non-Latin) translations.

Regarding Islam, children of a Muslim father are born Muslim, but are considered rational at the age of approximately 7 when they are expected to learn and understand Islam as opposed to just experiencing it at home. This is also part of the reason for children of 6 or 7 to be given to the father , especially the Muslim father, in the case of divorce.

I, for one, fully support your desire to learn the original languages of the Abrahamic faiths, and would further suggest Aramaic, the original language, before the Greek translation, of the New Testament.

I admire the Quakers for their conscientious objection, and for rescuing my professional mentor from the Holocaust, when he was a small child in Europe. Lutherans are almost Catholics! LOL

All the best

Chiara
by preference strictly a KJV reader (when in English)
Chiara, on April 24, 2009 at 12:54 am said:

PS the problem Protestants have with Catholics hasn’t changed much since the original Protest that led to the Reformation! My biggest problem with proselytizing among the converted is that it smacks of it not being good enough just to be Christian, one must be the exact same type of Christian as the proselytizer.

Regarding the Islamic marriage contract, to the best of my knowledge raising the children Muslim is part of the main (non optional) part, just like the information about the woman being a Daughter of the Book, and single, and the man not having more than 4 wives at a time, and that the contract is a “licence” for conjugal sex. The optional clauses are added separately and agreed to by both parties. I should add that in my case no one even asked my faith, they assumed I was Christian, and went to great lengths to protect my religious identity, including requiring that a Christian man stand in for my father, who was out of the country, and marking it all in the contract. I have no qualms about raising Muslim children, as long as they are raised with respect for and knowledge of other faiths (not hard, that is a normal part of Islam–except for the select few who make the news most often).
caraboska, on April 24, 2009 at 12:55 am said:

Umm, how to say this? I live basically in the previous Pope’s hometown! Poland was never actually in the Soviet Union, although it was right next door, Socialist (at least theoretically) and considered a ‘satellite’.

It is my understanding that normally, Catholic translations in the past have been made from a Latin translation of the Greek and Hebrew (i.e. the Vulgate), rather than directly from the original, while the most recent ones have been made directly from Greek and Hebrew.

It is my understanding that there is no manuscript evidence at this time for Aramaic originals of the New Testament – the oldest manuscripts we have apparently all being in Greek. Which is why, until further information appears to disprove this, I refer to Greek as the original language of the New Testament.

That having been said, those who know better than I do can tell that some of the books of the New Testament were written in a Greek style indicative of a non-native speaker – probably one speaking Aramaic or Hebrew as their primary language. So it would indeed be useful to know Aramaic in order to better understand the Greek written by such people.

Yes, the Lutherans make much of how they are NOT Catholic, but the only folks I’ve met who are closer to that than the circle I presently travel in are *very* high Anglicans. But then again, they call themselves Anglo-Catholic, so maybe they don’t count
caraboska, on April 24, 2009 at 1:11 am said:

Chiara,

I had thought that raising the children as Muslims was part of the ‘required’ part. And I admit to having been curious what they do about a wali for a non-Muslim woman. I guess a Christian father can’t be his daughter’s wali only if she has already converted to Islam…

As far as those Protestants are concerned, there’s still quite a variety among them. In my experience, for the most part they cared less about which church you belong to or whether you adhered to every little detail of the church’s doctrine, and more about a relatively narrow area of what they defined as ‘the really important stuff’: 1) Who is God? 2) Who is Jesus Christ? 3) What did He do for us? 4) Did He or didn’t He die and rise again? 5) Have you personally accepted and put your faith in these things, so that it affects your life on a day-to-day basis?

I guess there are folks who are more ‘particular’, just like those folks to whom you were referring in your last parenthesis: ‘I have no qualms about raising Muslim children, as long as they are raised with respect for and knowledge of other faiths (not hard, that is a normal part of Islam–except for ***the select few who make the news most often***).’ Thank God, I don’t think I know any of them personally.
Chiara, on April 24, 2009 at 3:20 am said:

Caraboska

Thank you for your diplomatic correction about Poland and the USSR. Of course you are right, Poland was only a satelite state not a member state and one where Roman Catholicism was allowed to continue. Nonetheless the parallels with the SSR (post WWII Stalinism, Soviet communist imposed regimes, puppet parliaments. privilege based on party membership) and the necessity of Solidarity with the backing of the Pope and the CIA make its history painfully similar.

John Paul II for all his positives, at best neglected, and at worst severely harmed his Latin American believers, with his attempts to eliminate liberation theology and its leftist leanings from the Church, based on his experiences in Poland, and his determination to eliminate Communism there, and the left everywhere.

I am more familiar (via a student’s PhD thesis) with the post-Soviet struggles of Lithuania, the only Catholic majority SSR and am aware that the Roman Catholic religion has not evolved in the East the way it did in Western Europe, in large part because of being a resistance movement even where it was allowed.

Regarding Aramaic, I assumed because of your desire to learn Hebrew, that you were interested in reading the whole Bible, and would want to read the parts of the Old Testament originally in Aramaic, in the original. Translations and transliterations from Aramaic are accepted by academic scholars as underlying phrases in the Koine Greek New Testament, so you are right it would be indirectly useful there.

“I guess a Christian father can’t be his daughter’s wali only if she has already converted to Islam…”

I’m not sure I understand you here. A Christian woman marrying a Muslim is required (or was required in my case) to have a Christian wali, not an easy feat in my case, as my father was not in the country, and it is not that easy to find a non-working (and thus available on the dates we needed him) Christian male in even a major city in a country that is 97-99% Muslim–hence dragging a kind member of the Spanish diplomatic core from his kitchen, where he was making tapas in preparation for a reception at the Spanish Embassy later the same evening, and to which we were kindly invited.

Each Muslim country has its own variations on Sharia law, and the Moudwana (Islamic family law), but I would imagine that one is rather universal. This variation is one of the reasons for not assuming Islamic law as applied in another country, necessarily applies in Saudi.
caraboska, on April 24, 2009 at 12:15 pm said:

Chiara,

That is one wild story about how you found your wali – gotta love it! And all the more so that it got you an invitation to a nice reception afterward :D:D

What I had in mind in my comment about Christian fathers serving as wali resulted from my being more familiar with what happens if a Christian man’s daughter converts to Islam. Then he can no longer serve as her wali (because her wali has to be a Muslim). My understanding is that then, they appoint one from her masjid. But I wasn’t familiar with cases where the woman was still a Christian – whether a Christian can serve as wali in an Islamic marriage ceremony.

Yes, you are quite right that during the so called ‘komuna’ (i.e. pre-1989) in Poland, any kind of dissent to the conservative view of Catholic doctrine was viewed as a kind of betrayal of one’s people, precisely because the Church doubled as a political resistance movement. And it was even worse if you were Protestant – because the Communists even tolerated Protestants (anything to weaken the Catholic Church).

Nevertheless, my beloved’s dad (a Protestant, like his entire family for many generations back) never did join the Party – though they kept bugging him about it at work – so he is well aware that while he could have made a bigger career for himself if he’d been willing to join up, some prices (like signing a document stating that you will not engage in religious worship) are not worth paying. My beloved himself, for that matter, got harrassed for his faith all through school and, to put it politely, no doubt did not get any extra points for his social background when it came time to apply for conservatory. I hear the ‘old war stories’ from his mom nearly every time I go over there to visit…
caraboska, on April 24, 2009 at 12:46 pm said:

PS I misunderstood your comments about Aramaic, because today’s ‘Hebrew Bible’ actually preserves the original Aramaic where it occurs. I suppose that when I get to those passages, I’ll learn enough Aramaic to understand them as I go. That for starters.
radha, on April 24, 2009 at 11:21 pm said:

@caraboska,

I wouldn’t necessarily call it corrupt From the saudi authorities point of view, i completed all formalities of a muslim wedding,converted and met their requirements so i guess i was good to go. The wasta bit was more to speed up the process. I don’t think any amount of wasta can get someone in / mariiage recognized ,if they have say a church wedding/temple ceremony.

I’m from India and corruption/bribery is a big problem there too. so i guess saudi didn’t seem very different to me.. horrible isn’t it.

Chiara – I guess you are correct in that if a non-muslim mom makes the effort she can raise her kids to be muslim. See i’m the lazy kind, i decided long ago, i’d raise them in the faith i knew, and rest was up to their dad. There’s so much in hinduism i don’t know about, havn’t even scratched the surface that if i had the time and inclination, that’s what i would be learning up on Maybe when i retire.

We’re very laid back, so probably not a good example of religious behavior, more of the , be good, do good and all will be well type. and culturally believe that we must have faith in the one above us and sincerly pray ( however one chooses) and whatever happens after that is for your good only.

i know this is probably too simplified a version of religion. but so far has worked for us, and my kids don’t seem horribly confused about their identity, lets hope it lasts.
Chiara, on April 24, 2009 at 11:34 pm said:

Radha–I think your family is a model of a successful interfaith one, the majority of which don’t fight over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or the equivalent in their religions. Your children seem like they will be well equipped to handle any identity problems IF they should occur. Some university students never have any, and then some foolishly take a course in Post-colonial theory and the Hegemony of the West, and then wind up in my office. LOL
caraboska, on April 25, 2009 at 12:05 am said:

Radha,

So wait a sec. You officially converted, then, but unofficially…. ? Hmm. I don’t quite understand how such a thing can happen. I mean, I can intellectually understand, but not really. I admit to believing God expects us to tell the truth all the time – which at very least means presenting as fact only things that are… factual. So that saying I’d converted when I in fact hadn’t is something I wouldn’t be able to do even if it crossed my mind to do it. Which it wouldn’t – probably not even if I was given the choice to do it or die.

See, very early on in my Christian life, I fell in with a crowd who were very clear on the idea that if you aren’t willing to die for something, you don’t really believe it. Stories of people tortured or martyred for their faith were part of everyday conversation. And even though I no longer hang around with those folks, it has stayed with me to this day. That question of ‘am I willing to die for this’ is always lurking just beneath the surface even to this day. I can’t even take a hot bath without thinking about how my brothers and sisters in the faith over the ages have been tortured for that faith by, for instance, being forced to enter pools of corrosive chemicals or being literally grilled to death.

Chiara,

Forgive me if this info has already been given elsewhere, but it somehow has escaped me: are you a psychiatrist or something similar?
coolred38, on April 25, 2009 at 12:24 am said:

But if your a nonMuslim mother and care enough to raise your children in your husbands faith providing accurate instruction etc…then it seems to follow that you would have to actually believe enough in that scripture to bother yourself to teach it to your children…in which case…why not convert? Just wondering.
caraboska, on April 25, 2009 at 12:31 am said:

Well, if she has agreed that the children are to be Muslim, I’d agree with that. On the other hand, it is also possible to imagine a case where she believes that the choice should be left up to the children, so that the priority is to equip the kids with accurate knowledge about both Mom’s and Dad’s religion. Although in theory this second case is kind of impossible because of the apparent requirement in the Islamic marriage contract that the children have to be raised Muslim…
Chiara, on April 25, 2009 at 12:39 am said:

Caraboska–yes, and yes, in other words I am as likely to teach the Post colonial course as to receive the traumatized students–though never the same students of course! LOL

Also, I respectfully submit that martyrdom is highly overrated for the nonsaintly. Most who martyr themselves do so with little impact on anyone or anything, except for causing pain to their loved ones.

I even have Muslim friends, who are well aware of the possibility of kidnapping (because of their country of origin), who have coached a Christian to say the shahada (and made him practice a respectable pronunciation of it) to save himself if in extremis during his travels through the Middle East, and then to reject it as under coercion. They are the same ones who caution others not to truly convert unless they are very serious about it, and who respect the faith of others.
Chiara, on April 25, 2009 at 12:53 am said:

Regarding: non-Muslim mothers raising Muslim children

I don’t think it is so much a question of allowing the child to choose, but rather, as anyone who has been a child or a parent knows, children eventually mature and make choices their parents may or may not have planned on. On the other hand, the child with a knowledgeable, and positive image of both the maternal and paternal tributaries to his or her identity has a better chance at psychological health, and wise choices, than the one filled with ignorance and (self-) loathing of one of those aspects of his/her identity.

Regarding Islamophiles who don’t convert: Some reasons could be (in no particular order)
-appreciation for the Abrahamic nature of Islam and its acceptance of People of the Book
-respect for family of origin
-strength of belief in and practice of faith/religion of origin
-practical considerations, eg. in some Muslim countries differential family laws are in force depending on the religion of the person, which may advantage one or both partners in a family
-rejection of all personal adherence to a religion while respecting husband’s faith and wish for their children
etc.

Can’t speak for Gladys Cotterill though (Jehan el Sadat’s mother) LOL
caraboska, on April 25, 2009 at 12:54 am said:

Chiara,

Now that’s interesting. A psychiatrist who also teaches history??? Wow!

I am not talking about martyring *oneself*. That is not a concept I’m familiar with in a Christian context. What I’m familiar with is people who get thrown in jail and worse for simply practicing their faith and nothing more.

I’m surprised to hear that such a thing as taking shahada under duress and then recanting later is acceptable among Muslims, but I’m even more surprised that the Christian didn’t refuse. Last time I checked, the Bible’s take on that sort of thing is that it amounts to putting oneself in danger of hellfire. I mean, what Christian in his or her right mind is going to want Jesus to be ashamed of him when he gets to the Pearly Gates?
Chiara, on April 25, 2009 at 1:24 am said:

Caraboska

I only report what those particular individuals, Muslim and Christian did. As far as I know the Christian had a pleasant and safe 6 months in the Middle East.

I don’t know of contemporary Christians who are persecuted for practising their faith, unless they choose to do so in violation of laws against proselytizing, and usually they are simply deported. That is different than being kidnapped for ransom, or to make a political point.
susanne430, on April 25, 2009 at 3:06 am said:

I’ve enjoyed this recent discussion very much. Thank you, Ladies, for sharing your thoughts.

About Muslims marrying Christian women — I personally don’t see how a woman who grew up believing Jesus is the only way to God (John 14:6) could allow her children to grow up in a faith that teaches differently. And how could a man marry someone whom he “knows” (according to HIS faith) would not make it to Paradise because she refuses to announce that Mohammed is a prophet of God? That’s how I think of this. Maybe some will find my view narrow and intolerant, but I’m only sharing why I don’t understand a marriage such as this.

As for evangelizing … for me, it’s not a matter of you need to do this, this and this according to my ______ background and my ________ church’s teaching although I am SURE many make it like that. How unfortunate! Jesus instructed us to go into all the world and preach the gospel and to make disciples. NOT force them! The gospel is the good news that Jesus saves. We should simply tell others that and live it (most importantly) and allow God to use our words to reach others. It’s not up to us to convert someone. That’s a matter of an individual’s heart before GOD alone! This is why I have a problem with people “born” Muslim or Christian. Yes, maybe culturally you are that, but TO ME, it’s more of a heart issue between a person and GOD, not between a person and his culture/family/tribe/country.

Just my two cents’ worth.
Gloria, on April 25, 2009 at 3:35 am said:

Very nice post! I also liked your last paragraph & can see why that has been the biggest challenge.
Wish you all the best, American Bedu.:-)
Chiara, on April 25, 2009 at 4:21 am said:

Susanne–Thanks for your thoughtful comment.

To me this is very easy. It is the same Abrahamic God/Allah and same Heaven and Hell (although the details differ), Jesus/Isa and Mohamed are prophets/messengers who bring the word of God/Allah and that latter belief is what counts ultimately in where one heads. The Noahide laws, and the ten commandments apply to all, and underpin the behavioural precepts of both Abrahamic religions.

Catholicism allows for all those who live a moral life, believe in God and recognize Jesus as a prophet /messiah to be saved, as the Muslims do.
The Quran 2:62 states: (YUSUFALI) Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Mutual respect without expecting identical beliefs allows many Muslims and Christians to be happily married to each other, without interfering in each other’s faith and practises. Children are more flexible and less confused than many adults think. And then of course they grow up, and make their own decisions no matter where they started.

Gloria–agreed!
marjorie, on May 19, 2009 at 10:08 pm said:

if a wife goes to jerusalem with her muslim husband is there a problem with her coming back to the states?
American Bedu, on May 20, 2009 at 4:47 am said:

@marjorie – I’m not aware of why that would be a problem.
The Unsaid Obligation of the Foreign Wife to a Saudi « American Bedu, on September 30, 2009 at 3:08 am said:

[...] receive many requests each month for advice from non-Saudi women who are in a relationship with a Saudi man. Most of these women are [...]
kms, on November 14, 2009 at 6:19 am said:

Coolred I believe said earlier in the posts that “his family is more important than yours.”

I just wanted to comment and say that I’ve certainly experienced this, and we aren’t even in KSA (yet)! Understandably he has a great family, but mine happens to be a good Christian family by American standards (at least that’s the feedback I get from friends and by simply comparing them to what I see around me!)… yet they aren’t worthy of comparison in his eyes. He always refuses my family’s constant invitations to holiday celebrations or simply to visit. I understand religiously he isn’t obligated to my family, but having some understanding of how important it is for (serious) significant others to show up at key family events in American culture (especially for Christians) would be nice.

Oops now I really didn’t mean to complain; he’s a great person but her comment just struck a (sensitive) chord with me in this particular area.
American Bedu, on November 14, 2009 at 7:41 am said:

Welcome KMS and happy to have you here commenting!

I would suggest to take caution if you are not married yet and his instinct is to not interact with your family. I pray I’m wrong but I’ve a hunch that if you were in Saudi you might find the families needs and wishes overriding concern or fulfilling your needs and wishes as a wife. In so many instances the “blood” family will take precedence over a wife who has married in to a family. It will be expected that her needs would be met by her family regardless if they may be several oceans away.
kms, on November 14, 2009 at 8:52 am said:

Thanks AmericanBedu – I think you may very well be right about that. He says that he doesn’t expect me to care about his family in retur, but indeed if I go over there, they will probably play a huge role in my life whether I like it or not.
Aafke, on November 14, 2009 at 4:22 pm said:

kms, considering his his disdain for your family combined with his lack of consideration for your feelings and wishes, I think you would be in an extremely bad situation if you were to move to KSA.
Actually I think it would be more than ill-advised, it would be very stupid.
Most older expat wives did not know what horrible situations they were getting into, but you know. Read this blog, read the experiences of other foreign wives in KSA, read how badly foreign wives are treated by saudi familes, how you will have no rights, not even to your own children, And your husband certainly does not seem to be the kind of man who would stand up for you and protect you.
And if you still think that you should go you are extremely stupid but at least you will know you fell into it willing and knowing and it’s your own fault.
Sorry to be so blunt but there is no way of putting this gently. If your Saudi husband really loves you he will be willing to stay with you in a country where you can be free and respected.
Abu Sinan, on November 14, 2009 at 10:44 pm said:

@Marjorie,

If an American goes to Jerusalem they’ll no problem coming back to the States, however, if you have that Israeli stamp on your passport your husband might have issues in his home country and you might be denied entry into many Middle Eastern countries.

Most times in traveling into Israel they’ll let you stamp your visa stamp on a different piece of paper so this issue an issue. If you have that Israeli stamp you’ll have a hard time going to many countries in the Middle East.
kms, on November 15, 2009 at 1:05 am said:

@aafke:

I haven’t gone yet, and haven’t agreed yet. That’s part of the reason why I’m on here; getting as much information as I can. On the contrary, it would be “stupid” of me to go without attempting to connect with others who have experience in this.

Second, for a variety of reasons that I won’t get into, he has to go back to his country, at least for a few years. So that’s not an option, at least for right now.
Abu Sinan, on November 15, 2009 at 4:47 am said:

@Kms,

If, for whatever reason, he doesnt accord your family the same respect he has for his one, it is a very bad sign. If he has no respect for them, how can he really have respect for you when you are a product of your family?

Once you go to Saudi you will loose any sort of rights and legal recourse you would have in the West, everything from spousal abuse, travel, children, is all dealt with differently there and stacked heavily in favour of the men even when both spouses are Saudi. You’d be a Western and completely reliant on him for your existance in that country.

From a relationship standpoint, when one partner seeks to isolate their partner from their family it is a very negative sign, usually a hallmark of a partner who later seeks to dominate and control their partner. Removing any access to a family support network, which would be the end result of this type of relationship, is one of the first stops down the tracks of abuse.
kms, on November 15, 2009 at 5:00 am said:

@AbuSinan:

Thanks for your thoughts; even in Western culture it is difficult to consider a person an entirely separate entity from their family. He never attempts to keep me from my family though, and always encourages me to see them as much as possible. He just doesn’t want to go with me. I understand his viewpoint to some degree; they refused to see him initially because he was Muslim, but have finally relented and wanted to get to know him now.
Joey, on November 15, 2009 at 1:14 pm said:

@kms

Many expats living in the Magical Kingdom and married to Saudis are happy but we don’t hear of them too much. And if it was such a bad place why are some expats single and married to other expats been living in the Magical Kingdom 20-25 years! Its not all a bleak picture here. Was reading in SG today how Saudi Arabia ranks high as a destination for expats all over the world. I remember reading in Gulf News that it took 8th place last year as best place to work amongst 27 countries! People can call it stupid for you to live here but have those same people lived here themselves? Or just hate it and hate it for others?
Abu Sinan, on November 15, 2009 at 1:50 pm said:

@ksm,

Shouldnt he be able to meet them half way? It would worry me that he wouldnt be willing to get over things that happened in the past for something as important as your family. If he loves you it would seem a rather important thing to do. Continuing strife with family members will make it hard for any relationship to move forward.

You need to recognise that despite his comments that you dont have to deal with his family, that just wont work in Saudi. Family is everything there so even if he thinks it is okay for you not to associate with them it will put YOU in a very bad light. His family will not care or understand this issue with you two, rather it will look like you are the stuck up Westerner too good for them.

Foreign wives have it hard in the best situation. I fear that your situation is just setting you up to be miserable.

I find it rather hard to understand why any Western lady would move to Saudi even if her husband is Saudi. Basically you are giving up all of the rights you have as a woman when you cross into Saudi airspace. If you have kids it doesnt matter how bad of a father he is, he will get them even if he is a drug addict who is physically abusive.

I have lived around the world and I am married to a Saudi lady myself. I would NEVER put myself into a situation where I had no recourse of any kind concerning almost EVERYTHING in my life.

I have said it before, as have others here, if he loves you he’d agree to stay in the West, or at least another Muslim country. Why is it the women who must always move especially when they have so much to loose on every level?

Most of these Saudis have lived, worked and gone to school in the West. They loose nothing in living in the West, aside from close family ties. Why should it be the women who has to sacrifice family ties?

I guess I dont take my freedoms for granted nor would I be so willing to give them up when my partner could just as easily stay in the place that we have lived together and not loose even the most basic of civil rights.
Daisy, on November 15, 2009 at 5:10 pm said:

Abu Sinan,
Very well said. You are concurring with my thoughts now – why is it the woman who must always move? I have been asking this question all along. And what is it that makes a Western woman – used to the idea of equal rights for women etc, move to her husband’s country? Are they any different from the traditional women from other cultures in this matter? I really have never understood this. As for Saudi men insisting on living in KSA, it does seem they do this because they know the woman will follow them.

Radha’s example is indeed the ideal way to manage in an interfaith marriage. In fact, her husband seems more “Indian” in this matter than a “Saudi.” India has a lot of these marriages between Hindu and Muslim or Christian partners, where the Hindu partner officially converts into the other faith at the time of marriage just to facilitate marriage process but never really practices the new faith. The non-Hindu partner never has any objection to this. The children grow up with a sprinkling of both faiths and they are really more secular than religious. Perhaps doesn’t agree well with the serious practitioners of monotheism in other countries, but works well for these families.

It has been remarked above that Christianity accepts marriage to a non-Christian as valid. However, my understanding is that Catholic Church doesn’t accept marriage to a non-Christian (non-Catholic?) as valid and expects the non-Christian partner to officially convert. At least that’s the way it is in India.

Yes,as stated above, Hinduism accepts the existence of many religions as “normal” and sees them as just different ways to worship the divine power. This is because Hinduism is not really a proselytising religion and believes that it is possible for the Truth to exist in multiple forms – Truth need not be singular as far as Hinduism is concerned. If people call this tolerance, that’s nice of them. But for the Hindus, this is so normal, they really don’t think much about it. In fact, many monotheistic discussions about how exactly a person should practise Islam/Christianity/Judaism and whether someone is doing it right are quite surprising to Hindus, who just accept every way of practise as normal.
American Bedu, on November 15, 2009 at 10:19 pm said:

@kms,

You are doing the right thing in reading and participating and acquiring a variety of views and experiences about Saudi.

When you mentioned he encourages you to see your family even if he does not go, my interpretation at least is that is natural for in Saudi among Saudi to Saudi spouses they do seem to interact individually with own family rather than as a couple or intermingle. This can be intimidating to some Westerners who do not have their own families available and not all Saudis may understand how that can create a feeling of isolation. I think it is good to discuss these issues with a future spouse.

I don’t blame the Saudi man for wanting to return to Saudi. It’s his home and again, family commitments, honor and pride run deep as well as he will (should) be the breadwinner and expect his wife to follow.

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