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	<title>Comments on: Openness and Saudi Arabia – A Negative Connotation?</title>
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	<link>http://americanbedu.com/2008/11/05/openness-and-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-a-negative-connotation/</link>
	<description>Experiences and observations of a former American diplomat now married to a Saudi and living in KSA...</description>
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		<title>By: American Bedu</title>
		<link>http://americanbedu.com/2008/11/05/openness-and-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-a-negative-connotation/#comment-11140</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[American Bedu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 09:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delhi4cats.wordpress.com/?p=2350#comment-11140</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good points Nzingha.  I&#039;m probably one of those viewed as very open and to those who are more conservative, they would likely challenge my dedication and practices. But I know who I am and content with my choices, decisions and practices.  I am also confident for that day when I have to stand up for my life  and to me, that&#039;s really what it is all about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points Nzingha.  I&#8217;m probably one of those viewed as very open and to those who are more conservative, they would likely challenge my dedication and practices. But I know who I am and content with my choices, decisions and practices.  I am also confident for that day when I have to stand up for my life  and to me, that&#8217;s really what it is all about.</p>
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		<title>By: Nzingha</title>
		<link>http://americanbedu.com/2008/11/05/openness-and-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-a-negative-connotation/#comment-11137</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nzingha]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 07:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delhi4cats.wordpress.com/?p=2350#comment-11137</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Umm Adam &quot;Carol, ths is fine as long as it does not contradict the deen.
I consider myself to be open-minded, progressive, innovative, modern, and [gasp] I’m educated. However, my limus test for any and everything is:
1. Does it agree or disagree with what Allah and his Messenger said.
2. Will this action/thought/belief get me in the fire or in paradise
3. Do I have to modify Islam or water it down to practice this open-minded progressive, or educated concept.&quot;

But this is where we run into issues in which we have to be open minded enough not to cut off another Muslim from the rope of Islam. A problem I find with many.. eerrr ultra conservative Muslims as well as the open minded. In your quest to do what is right regarding Islam and what you feel is halal another.. say Me :) would not agree with what you view as haram or something that you think will lead down the road to the hell fire and hence take no issue in pataking. This is an issue that has been going on in our ummah for years, hence the variant views of fiqh in which each group uses the same sources to support their views. 

Again I think each camp uses a broad brush to negate the other and in doing so damages our ummah and we are left incapble of reconciling our differences. We defeat ourselves by not being able to agree to disagree. And the issues don&#039;t have to be so extreme as you pointed out with the women who uncover and basically show their goods. 

I&#039;m one of those who sit in the middle, I try to understand the points of each group. I can agree and disagree and not take issue with a person unless that person violates the ability of others to agree or disagree with a view. One may view this as making Islam a burger king slogan but I would strongly disagree with that deduction :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Umm Adam &#8220;Carol, ths is fine as long as it does not contradict the deen.<br />
I consider myself to be open-minded, progressive, innovative, modern, and [gasp] I’m educated. However, my limus test for any and everything is:<br />
1. Does it agree or disagree with what Allah and his Messenger said.<br />
2. Will this action/thought/belief get me in the fire or in paradise<br />
3. Do I have to modify Islam or water it down to practice this open-minded progressive, or educated concept.&#8221;</p>
<p>But this is where we run into issues in which we have to be open minded enough not to cut off another Muslim from the rope of Islam. A problem I find with many.. eerrr ultra conservative Muslims as well as the open minded. In your quest to do what is right regarding Islam and what you feel is halal another.. say Me <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  would not agree with what you view as haram or something that you think will lead down the road to the hell fire and hence take no issue in pataking. This is an issue that has been going on in our ummah for years, hence the variant views of fiqh in which each group uses the same sources to support their views. </p>
<p>Again I think each camp uses a broad brush to negate the other and in doing so damages our ummah and we are left incapble of reconciling our differences. We defeat ourselves by not being able to agree to disagree. And the issues don&#8217;t have to be so extreme as you pointed out with the women who uncover and basically show their goods. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m one of those who sit in the middle, I try to understand the points of each group. I can agree and disagree and not take issue with a person unless that person violates the ability of others to agree or disagree with a view. One may view this as making Islam a burger king slogan but I would strongly disagree with that deduction <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: American Bedu</title>
		<link>http://americanbedu.com/2008/11/05/openness-and-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-a-negative-connotation/#comment-11130</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[American Bedu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 16:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delhi4cats.wordpress.com/?p=2350#comment-11130</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your comment, Kaalimaat.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment, Kaalimaat.</p>
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		<title>By: kaalimaat</title>
		<link>http://americanbedu.com/2008/11/05/openness-and-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-a-negative-connotation/#comment-11122</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kaalimaat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 15:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delhi4cats.wordpress.com/?p=2350#comment-11122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The quran and the Sunnah are clear and simple to practice, i have not come across anyone who wants to change its words or contents. For example we cannot accept homosexuality as it is clearly is stated in the quran to be  a sin and it should not be advocated for. There are other minor points that schools of thought differ upon, but not a great deal. However we should not turn away from seeking reform. Muslims living in Muslim countries want reform of the nepotism, despotism, absolutism and lack of freedom for minorities and weaker groups that is widely practised in muslim societies and justified by using ISLAM. When those factors are challenged accusations of being secular, innovator, sell out, deviant and less of a muslim are spread. Saudi Arabia is good in utilising this ( since they claim to follow the salif as salihoon) in order to to silence any challenging debate as not religiously authentic.

I was watching some Saudi Minister on one of the arab channels stating that peaceful demonstrations and protests are innovation since it did not exist at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), hmmm, arent the Royal family as head of state an innovation as well? That is the type of religious thinking that needs reform.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The quran and the Sunnah are clear and simple to practice, i have not come across anyone who wants to change its words or contents. For example we cannot accept homosexuality as it is clearly is stated in the quran to be  a sin and it should not be advocated for. There are other minor points that schools of thought differ upon, but not a great deal. However we should not turn away from seeking reform. Muslims living in Muslim countries want reform of the nepotism, despotism, absolutism and lack of freedom for minorities and weaker groups that is widely practised in muslim societies and justified by using ISLAM. When those factors are challenged accusations of being secular, innovator, sell out, deviant and less of a muslim are spread. Saudi Arabia is good in utilising this ( since they claim to follow the salif as salihoon) in order to to silence any challenging debate as not religiously authentic.</p>
<p>I was watching some Saudi Minister on one of the arab channels stating that peaceful demonstrations and protests are innovation since it did not exist at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), hmmm, arent the Royal family as head of state an innovation as well? That is the type of religious thinking that needs reform.</p>
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		<title>By: American Bedu</title>
		<link>http://americanbedu.com/2008/11/05/openness-and-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-a-negative-connotation/#comment-11112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[American Bedu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delhi4cats.wordpress.com/?p=2350#comment-11112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Welcome Jammy and thanks for commenting!

Yes; the family members of a woman married to a Saudi can come for visits.  Usually the Saudi husband sponsors them and they arrive on visitor visas.  Umrah or hajj visas would be applied for separately. And of course the Kingdom puts a hiatus on issuing visitor visas when it is near Umrah and Hajj.  So if you wait until after Hajj season and apply, it should not take that long.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome Jammy and thanks for commenting!</p>
<p>Yes; the family members of a woman married to a Saudi can come for visits.  Usually the Saudi husband sponsors them and they arrive on visitor visas.  Umrah or hajj visas would be applied for separately. And of course the Kingdom puts a hiatus on issuing visitor visas when it is near Umrah and Hajj.  So if you wait until after Hajj season and apply, it should not take that long.</p>
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		<title>By: Jammy</title>
		<link>http://americanbedu.com/2008/11/05/openness-and-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-a-negative-connotation/#comment-11109</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jammy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 05:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delhi4cats.wordpress.com/?p=2350#comment-11109</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m still reading your blog although I haven&#039;t actually had a moment to sit and right a proper comment regarding your posts. I&#039;m still excited to wake up and read what your blog has to offer :)

Quick question that I thought you obviously could answer. When one (I&#039;ll just narrow it down to a Muslim American woman from a Muslim family who lived in the US) marries a Saudi man, and moves to Saudi Arabia, is it possible for her family to come and visit her in KSA? Is there some kind of visa? And does it take a long time if it&#039;s even possible? 

A group of friends and I were talking about how difficult it would be to marry someone and live in a country where your family would have a hard time being able to visit you.

Your answer/advice would be greatly appreciated :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still reading your blog although I haven&#8217;t actually had a moment to sit and right a proper comment regarding your posts. I&#8217;m still excited to wake up and read what your blog has to offer <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Quick question that I thought you obviously could answer. When one (I&#8217;ll just narrow it down to a Muslim American woman from a Muslim family who lived in the US) marries a Saudi man, and moves to Saudi Arabia, is it possible for her family to come and visit her in KSA? Is there some kind of visa? And does it take a long time if it&#8217;s even possible? </p>
<p>A group of friends and I were talking about how difficult it would be to marry someone and live in a country where your family would have a hard time being able to visit you.</p>
<p>Your answer/advice would be greatly appreciated <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: American Bedu</title>
		<link>http://americanbedu.com/2008/11/05/openness-and-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-a-negative-connotation/#comment-11105</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[American Bedu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 03:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delhi4cats.wordpress.com/?p=2350#comment-11105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you very much, Hamza, for your compliment!  (smile)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you very much, Hamza, for your compliment!  (smile)</p>
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		<title>By: hamza</title>
		<link>http://americanbedu.com/2008/11/05/openness-and-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-a-negative-connotation/#comment-11102</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hamza]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 20:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delhi4cats.wordpress.com/?p=2350#comment-11102</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve been reading this blog for a while and I am a big fan.  I&#039;ve always been fascinated by the religion/culture dichotomy in KSA and wanted to compliment you and commend you for all that you are doing.

Question for ummadam:  You seem to be operating under the assumption that if someone does something considered taboo amongst muslim conservatives they are going against their deen or religion.  What if their choice to not wear a scarf/abaya, or shake-hands with a business colleague of the opposite gender, or drive a car (in the case of women) is based upon a laboured and well-thought out interpretation of their faith Islam? Something that may not fall into your definition or the conservative majority&#039;s definition of Islam but is completely in agreement with the Islam of such an individual?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been reading this blog for a while and I am a big fan.  I&#8217;ve always been fascinated by the religion/culture dichotomy in KSA and wanted to compliment you and commend you for all that you are doing.</p>
<p>Question for ummadam:  You seem to be operating under the assumption that if someone does something considered taboo amongst muslim conservatives they are going against their deen or religion.  What if their choice to not wear a scarf/abaya, or shake-hands with a business colleague of the opposite gender, or drive a car (in the case of women) is based upon a laboured and well-thought out interpretation of their faith Islam? Something that may not fall into your definition or the conservative majority&#8217;s definition of Islam but is completely in agreement with the Islam of such an individual?</p>
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		<title>By: ummadam</title>
		<link>http://americanbedu.com/2008/11/05/openness-and-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-a-negative-connotation/#comment-11095</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ummadam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delhi4cats.wordpress.com/?p=2350#comment-11095</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK I think I&#039;m finally getting it. Many people think that conservative Saudi means religious Saudi...NOT! A conservative Saudi is usually that way because it&#039;s aayb (shameful) to be other than the cultural norm. A religious Muslim (not just Saudi) avoids the haram because it is forbidden by Allah and His Messenger. There lies the conflict. I use to teach an adult conversation class in my home. It was a nice group of sisters and I would always talk about the taboo. Stuff other people are afraid of or warned not to discuss with Saudi women. These were all very conservative women, some more religious than others but they all told me that most people they know care more about if some is aayb than haraam. This is why you see some traveling Saudi women remove their abayas out side of Saudi. I&#039;m not saying that you are not religious if you don&#039;t wear an abaya. There are various levels, but the ones who take it off and the hijab and wear the most immodest over exaggerated sexy clothes that even &#039;immoral western women&#039; wouldn&#039;t dare wear with a ton of makeup on  I think it is a fair assessment to say that they are lacking in the religious area. I hate using women issues all the time for examples but those are usually the ones fought hardest against.

There is nothing wrong with being openminded and going against cultural norms if those norms opposed Islam. The problem is replacing one evil with another (your cultural for some other unislamic culture).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK I think I&#8217;m finally getting it. Many people think that conservative Saudi means religious Saudi&#8230;NOT! A conservative Saudi is usually that way because it&#8217;s aayb (shameful) to be other than the cultural norm. A religious Muslim (not just Saudi) avoids the haram because it is forbidden by Allah and His Messenger. There lies the conflict. I use to teach an adult conversation class in my home. It was a nice group of sisters and I would always talk about the taboo. Stuff other people are afraid of or warned not to discuss with Saudi women. These were all very conservative women, some more religious than others but they all told me that most people they know care more about if some is aayb than haraam. This is why you see some traveling Saudi women remove their abayas out side of Saudi. I&#8217;m not saying that you are not religious if you don&#8217;t wear an abaya. There are various levels, but the ones who take it off and the hijab and wear the most immodest over exaggerated sexy clothes that even &#8216;immoral western women&#8217; wouldn&#8217;t dare wear with a ton of makeup on  I think it is a fair assessment to say that they are lacking in the religious area. I hate using women issues all the time for examples but those are usually the ones fought hardest against.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with being openminded and going against cultural norms if those norms opposed Islam. The problem is replacing one evil with another (your cultural for some other unislamic culture).</p>
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		<title>By: ummadam</title>
		<link>http://americanbedu.com/2008/11/05/openness-and-saudi-arabia-%e2%80%93-a-negative-connotation/#comment-11094</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ummadam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delhi4cats.wordpress.com/?p=2350#comment-11094</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Carol that&#039;s true. Saudis are just as guilty as everyone else who does not adhere correctly to Islam.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carol that&#8217;s true. Saudis are just as guilty as everyone else who does not adhere correctly to Islam.</p>
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