A while back I was at a social function where the guests were a broad mix of expats and Saudis. As typical when there is such a gathering, discussions would include current events and issues within Saudi Arabia. It is also usual to discuss the changes in Saudi Arabia since King Abdullah came to power. Typical words one will hear when referring to changes that have taken place under King Abdullah include “a new generation of openness,” “a time of change,” “moderation” and “liberalism.” In fact one Saudi shared that among some Saudis he was viewed as a “liberal extremist.” But instead of this being seen in a positive and progressive light, he was viewed as one who wants too much change too fast and therefore considered a threat.
Ironically the words that the Western world may like to hear associated with Saudi Arabia are in fact viewed negatively among Saudis. A Westerner may describe a Saudi friend as “he’s an open and progressive guy” in a positive manner. But imagine a conservative Saudi national using those same words but with a picture of derision on his face when he describes the same individual as “open and progressive.”
So that in turn led to a discussion on what is the politically correct way to refer to an individual who is perhaps more modern and yes, open (there’s that word again) in outlook without offending any Saudis who may be in the midst and have a different view or connotation attached to such words? The closest we were able to come up with and agree upon is to refer to a Saudi as “educated.”
Filed under: Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture
Hey Carol, I’ll comment later but I just want to congratulate you for the new U.S president. I hope things will really ”positively” change after this election.
Sorry to hijack the post but I just CANNOT RESIST IT.
OH MY GOD. CONGRATULATIONS & ALHAMDULILAH NOW THAT OBAMA HAD WON! This win is not just a win for the Americans who wanted change but also for the world!
Of course, now that he won, he will be facing challenges that needs to be addressed immediately, issues that matters to Americans and everyone around the world and high expectations and hope are put upon him to perform what he hopefully can achieve.
Commenting on this post, I’ve read articles on how would King Abdullah will bring positive changes for all Saudis, just like what Barack Obama had promised for and how disappointed some Saudis are with the slow progress in reforms and change.
I suppose the term “open and progressive” is an anathema for conservative Saudis because they equate it with the “amoral” West or just a case of “I-dislike-that-term-because-it-is-associated-with-the-West”. There are many reasons why they dislike such terms but this could be one of the many reasons.
Mabrook!
:):):):):):):):)
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
I think if they used ‘educated’ to desrcibe ‘open’ and ‘progressive’ Saudis then they are implying that everyone else is ignorant. I think that most Saudis that view those terms as negative connotations do so because it seems as those type of people would also like to see Saudis as secular and less religious and also wantng to modernize Islam. If it were just in a worldly and technological sense then this would be ok but we know it does not stop there. We know that most of these types really would like to give Islam a makeover not just Saudi.
Ah yes, educated. LOL. I agree, educated enough to deduce the real meaning of the words.
ummadam, who ever said Saudi was Islamic anyway? Oh sorry, the Saudi’s THINK they are.
Well, when you say give Islam a make over, which islam do you mean? the Wahabi view of islam that involve extremely prohibiting what they see as gray lines to over protect what god has already vowed to protect? or the Sunni islam that involves having 4 figih sects (some might say that they even rose for political reasons)?
Islam is not as we learned, black and white… we and them… its more complicated than that. so saying that liberals want to give Islam a face lift, you would have to specify what is your perspective of Islam…. do you think so, or do you think i should hear your opinion on this?
on another note.
i have met with the secretary of state of England of both energy and climate change, and corporate governance and policy change when they were here in Riyadh beginning of November. I was part of 4 guys and 5 girls who were saudi. they wanted to meet saudi youth, so there we were.
We were part of the “educated” few. I made it clear that we are the elite, that knew English well, that have internet access, we tough our selves how to be who we are. I also made it clear that when we want change, we don’t want it to be a cookie cutter change. We want it to be a change from US, through open discussion. We do want to change, but we wont impose the changes we want if people discuss it and dont want it. Before all this happens, we need to focus on educating people to discuss. we have to change the paradigm of learning
current education paradigm
(learn -> memorize -> repeat)
we need it to change to
(understand -> analyze -> innovate)
this has also have to change for religious learning paths.
Thanks everyone for the comments.
While I know we are ALL exhuberant about Obama let’s put those comments back on one of the posts related to the election as I think today’s topic is important and merits discussion.
Ryan, Abdullah Hamed,
Thanks for your comments. I believe your queries in regards to Islam and change are directed more from Umm Adam’s comments than my post? Good queries.
I agree with your perspective Abdullah Hamed and hope that the majority of the youth share your perspectives.
Yes Abdullah, those who see rote learning (and there are a lot of countries still operating that way) as “education” don’t see the downsides to that method in their students (lack of imagination, lack of problem solving skills, lack of creativity).
well, its like the story of “Juha” when he couldn’t figure out whether to let his boy on his donkey, sit himself on it, both ride it, or both get off it. In all cases someone is not going to like it. So, what the use in trying?
the words “open” , “educated” “enlightened” are true, but it also depends on the perception of of the individual on that level of truth they are.
Carol, I have noticed recently some political figures and political commenters in the U.S politics try to defend themselves from the word “liberal”.. or even they use it to taint another entity.
For example when some politicians would like to blame Media.. they use “Liberal Media” as it was term that is meant to offend the media.
I think the word liberal is under attack.. in a lot of context lately its being negatively discussed like it’s a sign of weakness.
It’s interesting to see rote memorization as the standard for education.It was one of the reasons I chose to start homeschooling 19 years ago.That and the lack of a moral compass secular education tends to create.
I like to read about other cultures and KSA in particular because it went from being not developed to highly developed at lightning speed.
It would be nice to see a place with such a rich culture be able to maintain that heritage while moving forward.Changing the educational paradigm while preserving the core values of any culture is the challenge.We in the west should have thought of that long ago.
One could have a separate blog dedicated just to posts and discussions on education in Saudi Arabia!
DW -yes; with the US elections now over I have no doubt we will see roundtables dissecting the media coverage and whether it was too “liberal” or facilitated biases or undue influences.
Always — KSA has developed quickly but in a lot of other ways (in my view) it is still a third world developing country wrapped up in a first world illusion.
What are figih sects?
It is my impression that Saudi Wahabbi Islam has been doing a lot of cherry-picking and innovating Islam, and shouldn’t get a ”make-over”, but rather get back to the basics, the truth.
I cannot believe that the custodian of the two holy mosques has any desire to ”innovate” Islam to please some western influences. I think it’s a ridiculous notion.
It is interesting to read that so many people are disheartened by the slow pace of (let’s call it) improvements, and so many others are angered by them and think it’s all going too fast. But I suppose those people really don’t want ànything to change at all, so what they reall want is a standstill.
I think one of the things KSA really needs is better education, and a possibillity for people to openly discuss topics. Without the fear of being thrown into prison.
The substance of words is always in the mind of the speaker. If there is no consensus about the actual, literal meaning of words, discussion becomes impossible. And there is a tendency to devaluate words nowadays! I think everybody should stand up against that and use the correct words for their correct meaning.
Liberal=free
open=open
progressive= moving forward
Anybody who doesn’t like the concepts these words embody should openly admit it and use other, appropriate words to express their dislike. Not use the same words but adulterate their significance.
Would they be proud or offended if they were referred to as ‘backward’ or ‘closed minded’?
Ummadam – ‘We know that most of these types really would like to give Islam a makeover not just Saudi.’
Doesn’t that imply that Islam IS as the Muslims do/think?
I’ll look forward to seeing the responses to the question you pose Lynn.
man I hate labels. I do agree that terming one group educated is in fact terming the other ignorant or at the very least uneducated. Just as terming one as progressive is defining the other as backward or at least stuck in time. I think broad brushes do no good to help this society at all and that what should be found is a medium in which both can live in a society they are happy with or at least feel they are benefitting from.
Hey Carol, back again.
First of all, I don’t think that if we refer to a group of people as educated means that others are ignorant.
Regarding the openness, what are the measures to refer to somebody as an open-minded? In my opinion, I believe (as a Muslim and Saudi) that openness should not ever contradict with Islam. So, if openness means that women in KSA have to drive or should not be segregated or should takeoff their abayas and wear jeans in Olaya St. or lay on the half-moon beach wearing bikinis, I refer it as completely ignorance.
I think we should first define ”openness” and give criteria to apply it on an ”open-minded person”.
Actually what you did mention is really ”generic” and it should have been more specific in terms of Islam.
Regarding Lynn question, I think referring to a Saudi as a close-minded would be 80% taken as an offence. Because it can mean many things including technology.
Abu Azoz, where does Islam specify that men and women should be forcibly seperated and where does it say that punishment should occur when an unrelated man and woman do business at a public coffee shop? Where does it say a woman will burn in hell for speaking with said colleagues during that meeting? (as blurted out by the prosecuting judge in the case; http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/07/world/main3800725.shtml).
Where does it say women are not allowed to drive?
Maybe I’m just confused about what you are saying but those kinds of mindsets are definately closed minded, uneducated and extremist.
Can one separate “openness” from Islam when speaking of Saudi Arabia? Does Islam play a role in whether or not a Saudi is viewed as open-minded? I don’t think so.
I see openness as individualism, ability to speak candidly without fear of repurcussion, one who does not insist that everyone must conform to his or her particular views or train of thought. It does not mean remove all abayas, segregation or allow women to immediately drive. The manner in which the topic was discussed as alluded in my post was in the perceptions or reactions of some people in how one attempts to refer to Saudis.
this reminded me with a post I wrote in my Blog 3 yrs ago.I’ll just paste it here for fun
Begin of pasted text
Nowadays, there is a new trend. I came to realize that everyone is saying “I’m an Open minded person”!!!! Now the 1 million$ question, Who can judge that a person is “open minded or nope… Every individual has his/her own definition of “a open minded person” So what might be considered “open mindedness” in your personal dictionary might not be the same in other people’s dictionaries. Can you please look up in your dictionary and check for me the definition of “a open-minded person!!???”
ciao and don’t be stubborn and be Ready to entertain new ideas because not always your ideas are true!
End of pasted text
Cheerio
So open in the sense of being able to discuss anything and everything without fear of muttawa, prison, capital punishment, becoming an outcast, disowned by your family etc?
It is Saudi after all and does not everything that gets discussed have to be associated to Islam in some way? At least thats the impression I get from some muslim posters in your blog.. seeing as Islam is a way of life.
@Carol, you said:
“Can one separate “openness” from Islam when speaking of Saudi Arabia? Does Islam play a role in whether or not a Saudi is viewed as open-minded? I don’t think so.”
I think you either answered your ow question or contradicted yourself on another thread where you said:
“Yes….some Saudi families are very open-minded and have no objection to their daughters finding enjoyment in what others may view as pagan ways.”
Saudi is not a secular country. Most Saudis claim to be Muslims. Islam is a way of life.
@Abdul Hameed, the not so funny thing is, I have never heard an ‘open-minded’ , ‘progressive’, or a person who takes pride in being ‘educated’ Muslim ever try to follow Islam as it should be followed. They may point out the flaws of the Muslims and the different schools of thoughts, but they do not call anybody to practicing Islam correctly. Instead, the ‘open minded’ Muslims allow there children to have ‘haram fun’. The Progressive Muslims want a secular society. The educated Muslims try to intellectualize the deen. And they all have resentment for those who call Muslims to return to their deen and remind them that Allah will give them victory only once they follow true deen and not all these other deviated and misguided paths.
Let’s face it – those people who wear those labels do so to separate themselves from Islam. So you answer me this, do you think most people who wear these labels and have these views, do so for the pleasure of their Lord? Are they out to please Allah with these actions? What are the intentions? Does this comment annoy anyone? Is anyone wondering why did I have to bring up Allah?
Ah ummadam, its always good to hear from the resident fundamentalist.
ummadam, “The funny thing is….” I get the impression you’d prefer muslims to be uneducated animals like certain tribal Pakistani’s and African muslims who still uphold stoning women to death for so-called “adultery”. I mean, seeing as critical thinking is banned in Islam right?
@Lynn
“Doesn’t that imply that Islam IS as the Muslims do/think?”
Empathetically No! Islam is the submission to the will of God. Unfortunately, you have knuckle head Muslims running around giving Islam, Burger Kings Slogan!
I will likely repeat this phrase over and over throughout my blog but one thing we can all agree upon in regards to Saudi Arabia is “contrasts and contradictions.”
@Ryan, yup a real purist who’ll take that as a compliment. wink
Ya Ummadam…Purity lies in all things untouched by Man…
One of those internal Social disconnects Bedu?
I’m simply enjoying the exchange of comments here! (smile)
Umm Adams argument is simplistic and is not black and white as she likes to make it out. Its not as simple as two camps: the religious Saudis who want to keep Islam as pure and the “progressive muslims” who have a secular agenda and are less of a muslims. Saudi is not secular but it is not Islamic as well. A country ruled by a Royal family who control all its resources, executing innocent people for witchcraft and women having to ask for men’s approval for everything is not Islamic. Umm Adam equates modernity, secularism to Muslims losing their religion, having unhalal fun and empty mosques. You should have more belief in your faith Umm Adam.
I find it very interesting how faith and openness are so intertwined in Saudi Arabia. It still fascinates me how Islam literally permeates every phase of life in Saudi Arabia… and if one wishes for differing forms of progression whether it be in education, womens’ issues or even greater freedom of the media, then it seems that individual is categorized as too open, too liberal and “not religious enough.” I think we need to break this stereotype. I do believe one can be true to their faith as well as progressive without their being a conflict.
Kaalimaat, not true.
Carol, ths is fine as long as it does not contradict the deen.
I consider myself to be open-minded, progressive, innovative, modern, and [gasp] I’m educated. However, my limus test for any and everything is:
1. Does it agree or disagree with what Allah and his Messenger said.
2. Will this action/thought/belief get me in the fire or in paradise
3. Do I have to modify Islam or water it down to practice this open-minded progressive, or educated concept.
I am sending this message on the internet, so i am not some fanatic calling to no wordly advancement (just stay off porn sites..lol). Islam is not complicated. It is for all times and all people. The catch is, it is perfect the way it is. You can be open-minded, progressive, and educated without scarificing your religion. Unfortunately, the reasson why those terms/concepts are rejected by most of the more religious Muslims is because usually the call is to move away from the religion. To separate your worldlylife from your religious life. They want to relugate Islam to the back of the bus. They remind me of the christians and their varying commitment to the church. Some atend every day of the week, others on Sundays only, more come around Easter and Christmas, other don’t come at all. Islam is not like that. It should not surprise you how “Islam literally permeates every phase of life” this is how is should be. When you get to the point of thinking that Islam needs to be reformed then that is the conflict. The only reform the Muslims need is to is to adhere to the Quran and the Sunnah as they were understood by the Salaf as-Saalih (pious predecessors), referring to the first three generations of Muslims, being the Sahaabah, Taabi’een and Taabi’ at-Taabi’een ridwaanullaahi ‘alayhim. For the Prophet sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam described them to be the best generations of Muslims. This is the true manhaj of Ahl as-Sunnah wa al-Jamaa’ah.
I am sorry to say this but I have been disappointed in how I see Islam practiced here in Saudi Arabia as compared to other muslim countries or even in the West. I see too much that are cultural traditions or idiosyncrasies here that many say is in fact “islam.” Islam is practiced in its own way here in Saudi which many times may be deviated from the teachings in the Quran.
Carol that’s true. Saudis are just as guilty as everyone else who does not adhere correctly to Islam.
OK I think I’m finally getting it. Many people think that conservative Saudi means religious Saudi…NOT! A conservative Saudi is usually that way because it’s aayb (shameful) to be other than the cultural norm. A religious Muslim (not just Saudi) avoids the haram because it is forbidden by Allah and His Messenger. There lies the conflict. I use to teach an adult conversation class in my home. It was a nice group of sisters and I would always talk about the taboo. Stuff other people are afraid of or warned not to discuss with Saudi women. These were all very conservative women, some more religious than others but they all told me that most people they know care more about if some is aayb than haraam. This is why you see some traveling Saudi women remove their abayas out side of Saudi. I’m not saying that you are not religious if you don’t wear an abaya. There are various levels, but the ones who take it off and the hijab and wear the most immodest over exaggerated sexy clothes that even ‘immoral western women’ wouldn’t dare wear with a ton of makeup on I think it is a fair assessment to say that they are lacking in the religious area. I hate using women issues all the time for examples but those are usually the ones fought hardest against.
There is nothing wrong with being openminded and going against cultural norms if those norms opposed Islam. The problem is replacing one evil with another (your cultural for some other unislamic culture).
I’ve been reading this blog for a while and I am a big fan. I’ve always been fascinated by the religion/culture dichotomy in KSA and wanted to compliment you and commend you for all that you are doing.
Question for ummadam: You seem to be operating under the assumption that if someone does something considered taboo amongst muslim conservatives they are going against their deen or religion. What if their choice to not wear a scarf/abaya, or shake-hands with a business colleague of the opposite gender, or drive a car (in the case of women) is based upon a laboured and well-thought out interpretation of their faith Islam? Something that may not fall into your definition or the conservative majority’s definition of Islam but is completely in agreement with the Islam of such an individual?
Thank you very much, Hamza, for your compliment! (smile)
I’m still reading your blog although I haven’t actually had a moment to sit and right a proper comment regarding your posts. I’m still excited to wake up and read what your blog has to offer
Quick question that I thought you obviously could answer. When one (I’ll just narrow it down to a Muslim American woman from a Muslim family who lived in the US) marries a Saudi man, and moves to Saudi Arabia, is it possible for her family to come and visit her in KSA? Is there some kind of visa? And does it take a long time if it’s even possible?
A group of friends and I were talking about how difficult it would be to marry someone and live in a country where your family would have a hard time being able to visit you.
Your answer/advice would be greatly appreciated
Welcome Jammy and thanks for commenting!
Yes; the family members of a woman married to a Saudi can come for visits. Usually the Saudi husband sponsors them and they arrive on visitor visas. Umrah or hajj visas would be applied for separately. And of course the Kingdom puts a hiatus on issuing visitor visas when it is near Umrah and Hajj. So if you wait until after Hajj season and apply, it should not take that long.
The quran and the Sunnah are clear and simple to practice, i have not come across anyone who wants to change its words or contents. For example we cannot accept homosexuality as it is clearly is stated in the quran to be a sin and it should not be advocated for. There are other minor points that schools of thought differ upon, but not a great deal. However we should not turn away from seeking reform. Muslims living in Muslim countries want reform of the nepotism, despotism, absolutism and lack of freedom for minorities and weaker groups that is widely practised in muslim societies and justified by using ISLAM. When those factors are challenged accusations of being secular, innovator, sell out, deviant and less of a muslim are spread. Saudi Arabia is good in utilising this ( since they claim to follow the salif as salihoon) in order to to silence any challenging debate as not religiously authentic.
I was watching some Saudi Minister on one of the arab channels stating that peaceful demonstrations and protests are innovation since it did not exist at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), hmmm, arent the Royal family as head of state an innovation as well? That is the type of religious thinking that needs reform.
Thanks for your comment, Kaalimaat.
Umm Adam “Carol, ths is fine as long as it does not contradict the deen.
I consider myself to be open-minded, progressive, innovative, modern, and [gasp] I’m educated. However, my limus test for any and everything is:
1. Does it agree or disagree with what Allah and his Messenger said.
2. Will this action/thought/belief get me in the fire or in paradise
3. Do I have to modify Islam or water it down to practice this open-minded progressive, or educated concept.”
But this is where we run into issues in which we have to be open minded enough not to cut off another Muslim from the rope of Islam. A problem I find with many.. eerrr ultra conservative Muslims as well as the open minded. In your quest to do what is right regarding Islam and what you feel is halal another.. say Me
would not agree with what you view as haram or something that you think will lead down the road to the hell fire and hence take no issue in pataking. This is an issue that has been going on in our ummah for years, hence the variant views of fiqh in which each group uses the same sources to support their views.
Again I think each camp uses a broad brush to negate the other and in doing so damages our ummah and we are left incapble of reconciling our differences. We defeat ourselves by not being able to agree to disagree. And the issues don’t have to be so extreme as you pointed out with the women who uncover and basically show their goods.
I’m one of those who sit in the middle, I try to understand the points of each group. I can agree and disagree and not take issue with a person unless that person violates the ability of others to agree or disagree with a view. One may view this as making Islam a burger king slogan but I would strongly disagree with that deduction
Good points Nzingha. I’m probably one of those viewed as very open and to those who are more conservative, they would likely challenge my dedication and practices. But I know who I am and content with my choices, decisions and practices. I am also confident for that day when I have to stand up for my life and to me, that’s really what it is all about.