So many expat women in the Kingdom would welcome the opportunity to get to know Saudi women. For some women there are obstacles placed in the way of getting this to happen whether it be the expat woman is a dependent spouse, lives on a western compound and therefore has virtually no contact with Saudi women. Or perhaps an expat woman does find herself at a function which includes some Saudi women but then only to find there are language barriers. Then thinking positive the expat woman is able to meet some Saudi women but apprehensive on what are the appropriate topics to discuss so as not to make any inadvertent cultural offensives or faux pas.
I posed this question to a Saudi woman whom I know. This particular Saudi woman is well traveled, speaks excellent English and has worked professionally most of her life. She is now semi-retired and in her late 50’s. She has many expat women among her friends as well as having an American sister-in-law.
She agreed with my views on the difficulties of getting Saudi and expat women together. In her view, once they are together the greatest barrier can usually be language. And if a Saudi woman comes from a more conservative or less-open background she may very well be quite shy herself and have the same fears as the expat in not wanting to make a faux pas.
According to my Saudi friend, “safe” topics to discuss when just getting to know a Saudi women are as follows:
- tv dramas – most Saudi women regardless of background enjoy the Arabic tv dramas. Even if as an expat you may not know about these shows or are able to follow them, ask the Saudi woman to tell you more about them and why she likes them. This can lead to a lively dialogue about distinctions and similarities between Saudi and Western television dramas.
- Fashion – Saudi women take pride in their fashions, particularly when they are out socially with other women. An expat woman can find a new friendship flourishing asking the Saudi women about the fashion styles of Saudi Arabia. Ask about the differing types of ladies thobes, their fabrics, their designs. Who are the best designers and why? Where are the best places for fashion shopping. Do not limit the discussion to ladies thobes only. Saudi women will know many hidden shopping treasures!
- Food – Saudi food whether a main course or sweets differs from the western food. All Saudi women also have their special and favorite dishes which they like to make. A Saudi woman will usually not be shy to introduce and explain typical Saudi foods and dishes to a female guest.
- Maids – Housemaids are prevalent throughout Saudi Arabia and every Saudi woman will have a story about her housemaid, good or bad. She will likely have plenty of advise to offer on acquiring and training a housemaid.
- Drivers – Having a driver or lack thereof is a widespread phenomenon. And just like housemaids, there are the good and the bad stories. The woman who has her own personal driver will develop a unique relationship with that driver. Many Saudi women will be happy to share their experiences and views on the subjects of drivers and driving in Saudi Arabia.
- Family – The Saudi woman is very family oriented. Her children are whom she lives for and she is also very close to the rest of her family as well – mother, father, grandparents, sisters, brothers, uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces and nephews. She likes to be asked and talk about her family.
The above topics can keep an expat woman and Saudi woman engaged in dialogue for hours and allow for the building of a strong and lasting friendship.
Filed under: abbya, America, culture, Dress, Food, friendship, gender, Hobbies, relationships, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, Saudi education, shopping, travel, Uncategorized, Women Issues
Language barrier is certainly the most difficult wall to climb over when in a foreign country…but having lived here so long I can remember my difficulties in the early days…even when I found someone that could converse with me well enough to actually have a conversation…we had nothing in common to talk about.
I grew up outside…Rocky Mountains as my back yard just about…playing outside…camping…climbing trees…rollerskating…bike riding…building forts and digging in the dirt. I went to a mixed school where I did sports…rode the bus…had a boyfriend…whatever….
What im trying to say I guess is that…when you first talk to someone…get to know them etc you talk about your similarities…your background so to speak…you know when you ask someone…”did you ever….” or “do remember when we had to do this or that….etc”…most of these ladies had no idea what I was talking about…their culture prevents them from most of that…so they would be (or seem to be) uncomfortable with me…not being able to relate…and I would be extremely frustrated cause I couldnt find even one person to “just talk” with…its hard to explain now..all these years later…but from your list of topics to discuss (replacing Saudi with Bahraini)…family is about the only one that ever interested me…thats the one common thing pretty much everyone has whether they like it or not…lol.
Thanks for commenting Coolred. I always appreciate hearing your perspectives since you have lived in the region for so long and have had a lot of experience and experiences.
I have found there is another reason for the excellent topics you mention. In Moroccan society, perosnal topics are generally avoided except with close friends or family members. Most of what you have listed above are “safe” topics.
Margot, in Marrakesh, Morocco
margotmystic.wordpress.com
You’re quite right Margot. The Eastern culture is indeed pretty closed in regards to “outsiders.”
That’s pretty much how the story goes at any function I happen to be at with Saudi/Arab women, whether it’s family or just acquaintances. “Our maid did this…really, my driver did that…did you watch that show last night…guess what i cooked for lunch today” and also the latest happenings at everyone’s jobs.
I agree with Margot, that these topics are safe and ideal when chatting with any saudi/arab women, unless you are very close friends.
Hey Carol,,
but they think that it wouldn’t be so easy because of the language barrier.
Interesting post…. and I have three comments:
First, As a saudi, when I see this list of topics I feel ashamed. This list indicates (some way or the other) that Saudi women are superficial and not capable of discussing politics or economics or even social issues, and I don’t think there’s anything personal or anything to avoid in these kinds of topics! So, is this true or not? Some commentators seem to agree! I must say here though that, knowing you, Carol, I am sure it was not your intention to make such a hint … and that you just narrated what your Saudi friend had told you. I’m sure that if you really thought of Saudi women that way you’d just say it, which’s something I like about you.
Second, I think language barrier is a huge issue, especially when it comes to western and Saudi women. My sisters have heard of you, Carol, and they told me that they’d love to meet you…
Third, I think not having anything in common is interesting enough to make conversation! Let me speak of myself and say that in my search for friends I don’t outcast people just because I don’t have anything in common with them. In fact, that point by itself might be the only reason why I WANT to make friendship with these people. I usually think of it this way: I need people around me who think and act like me or who share my culture and background as much as I need people who are so different so that I know what I’m missing, so that I know what’s out there, so that I know of something that could be better than what I currently have. It’s all about open mindedness and the ability to accept the others’ ideas and cultures and values.
Nader – I’d love to meet your sisters. We’ll manage….when I go to Makkah to visit with my husband’s family there is no English spoken. It would be a good experience for both of us.
You’re right…my post focused more on the advise from a sincere and well-intentioned Saudi woman. Although to a degree the majority of Saudi women do not wish to talk about politics, economics or stock market. I’ve even tried to work in discussions about social issues based on lessons learned or moral of some of the Tash ma Tash episodes.
It will be interesting to hear what Saudi women talk about other than the topics you listed.
While it is true that language barrier is a problem, I’m sure both Saudi and expat women would love to know more of each other.
If they’re willing to learn, understand and appreciate each other, I’m sure this will be beneficial to both parties in a sense that we get to bridge the division between East and West, one person at a time.
Somehow this entry kinda reminds me of Banat Al-Riyadh/Girls of Riyadh (correct me if I’m wrong) book.
Hi Firdaus, Interesting that this post reminds you of Girls of Riyadh! That is a good read!
I can attest from my own experience that expat women and Saudi women when brought together do indeed enjoy the experience and the interchange. However, again speaking from experience, the best exchanges do seem to occur when there is an agenda.
Girls of Riyadh is a good read? I should put it on my wishlist?
I think that the restrictions put on women in Saudi Arabia, will automatically curb their knowledge, and topics of conversations.
However, I have the same problem many times as well. I often have little in common, and nothing to talk about, and no clue what other people/women are talking about when I’m stuck in some social gathering.
I end up bored to death mostly, and feeling very left out.
Yes – go ahead and put it on your wishlist!
I understand…. I’ve worked all my life and many times in an environment dominated by men so as a result it has made me feel disconnected from women. However since coming to KSA I have rediscovered the “Sister Network.” Although it does seem not as many like to debate and discuss the same kind of topics that I do… but I keep trying!
Thank you for your blog and your input into and experiences being a woman living in saudi.
I am an american male who has lived outside of america since 1994 and I currently live in dubai. i have traveled to 80+ countries and all over the middle east so I know from experience that the western media is blinding us with misinformation, esp. on the middle east.
Can you tell us more about your saudi husband and how his famiy accepted you how you met as well as other cultural challenges/opportunities
if you have already blogged about him please tell me which one. I look forward to reading more on your experiences as a woman living in saudi arabia.
Welcome to the blog, John.
I have purposely not written alot about my husband as he (like most Saudis) is a very private individual. However throughout my blog in sharing experiences I will make an occasional reference whether it is his reaction to an experience or something he has taught me.
I also have written on acceptance from the family. To recap here, fortunately for me my MIL immediately accepted me which in turn led to overall acceptance and welcome throughout the family. The acceptance and approval of the mother-in-law is critical towards the success of a bi-cultural marriage between an arab and a westerner.
The cultural challenges have been as others have remarked more due to a language barrier. But if one is persistent these barriers can indeed be turned around into opportunities…opportunities to learn and practice arabic as well as to show these women that you are sincere and want to communicate.
I realize you have just found my blog and what I would suggest in reading about my experiences (of which there indeed have been many) is to start going through previous posts. To make it easier for you, you can either use the search bar at the top of the blog page and type in key words of interest to you or alternatively you can select topics via the “Tags” which you will find on the right hand side of the screen as you scroll down the blog.
Best Regards,
Carol
I will read them with great interest.
thank you
LOL
Well put Carol ;D
This mostly occurs when conversating with married ladies and old ladies I guess lol
You’re welcome, John.
Glad you liked HS! Ack…I fall into the old married lady category do I…heaven forbid! (LOL)
Bedu-In the ME my experience has been lots of great conversations on socialand political issues in Amman, Cairo, Beirut- conversations about clothes and jewels in Yemen- conversations about how the city is expanding and its advantages/disadvantages in Dubai…but never on family, and the internal tidbits of life within its confines.
However, my family is always willing, to me at least, to talk about illnesses, advice on cooking, and negotiating problems among the women of the tribe- which has helped me get to know them much deeper than even they realize. For that I am thankful because it allows me to feel some measure of acceptance and closeness- but this doesn’t extend to what they consider “outsider”-there you see the walls go as high as their tower, fortress like homes- impregnable even under siege.
I am going to Syria in less than 2 weeks ( I live in the US). It is helpful to have an idea about what are appropriate topics of conversation for women in the Middle East. Thank you
After reading the answers to some of your questions Carol…and hearing about other ladies experiences (on other posts) here in the ME all I can say is that my 20 plus years seems to have been some sort of fluke…a bad one…as my experience seems nothing like anyones here…sometimes I feel really bad always giving negative answers but I have no other answers to give…it was what it was. Better now for sure…but I wish I had even a smidgen of positive memories to share that some of the ladies here talk about when referring to family etc….sigh!
Inal – thanks for sharing. You’re right, given the closed and conservative nature of the Arab and particularly Saudi world, many topics will just naturally be off-limits unless one has “married into” the family and even then must first be accepted before family members would open up.
Valerie – glad to hear you found this helpful and I hope we’ll get to hear about your experiences in Syria.
coolred – It sounds like you came to the ME with all the right intentions and desires but your former husband’s family was closed to you and the marriage from the beginning. Sadly I do know of other cases where this has also happened and quite frankly it can make living life hell.
To the Saudi guys reading, I wonder what a western man would talk to a Saudi man about? My husband says he and his friends talk about 3 things…work, football, and money.
So for example, if my father came to KSA to visit my inlaws, what are some other things he could talk to the male family members about?
Arab men in general (my observations) are way into gadgets…latest mobile…latest laptop….latest game console…if it has buttons and can make pretty noises…they want it.
Auch! coolred! somehow that is the most derogative comment! (hè, hè, hè)
UmmSumayah, personally… I could just talk about anything and everything. I had a very interesting conversation a few days ago with someone about electricity, which I knew nothing about up until then!
I consider conversations in topics which I’m not familiar with as golden opportunities to learn new things. I could always be the listener (student), and let the other person be the speaker (teacher). I just need to make sure the other person is happy sharing the information with me, and that I should keep asking the right questions. In most cases I do well. Its fun!
Alot depends on your personality and intentions. In just a regular gathering of sisters we talk about the above mentioned topics. However, I don’t find this exclusive to just Saudi women..food, family, the home are all topics of interest to women world wide. Now I do have a few Saudi friends that I am very close and comfortable with and those are the ones I ask all the questions that most Westerners would` want to know, or tell them about the different images we perceive about them. I also set them straight about us (westerners). But I have one of those personalities…
@Hissweetheart – I find it hard to believe that I am grown up…lol! I noticed that the Saudi women gatherings asre split. The girls (it doesnt matter how old you are if you are not married you are considered a girl according to the Saudis I know) have their circle and the married women have theirs. I often times find myself sneaking into the girls room so I can giggle and be silly with them.
Umm Sumayah,
my husband routinely has interaction with many expats (plus all his american in-laws). I can assure you they talk of everything from politics, culture, customs, food, drink. women, television, sports, electronics, hobbies, books, etc. From my point of view, I think in many ways it is easier for the Saudi man and expat guys to “break the ice” than perhaps the Saudi woman and expat women.
Reuters chose to pick up this post:
http://www.reuters.com/article/blogBurst/entertainment?bbPostId=B6kcqoGH9Pf8Bzn7nRZ5sNNoCzB2kbJJ1QOo4CzBGZ8xYV05V4
[...] I had done a previous post on how to break the ice and converse with a Saudi, thanks to a blog reader suggestion, I have [...]
[...] whether you’ve met a Saudi within or outside the Kingdom. First and foremost, there are indeed distinctions when conversing with a Saudi male or female. If conversing with a Saudi female it will likely be another female [...]