A common question I receive from expat women here is can they really ever be friends with Saudi women? Many of the expat women in the Kingdom and particularly those who are here as a dependent spouse may never even get the chance to meet a Saudi woman during their time in the Kingdom. It is not because they do not want to but that the opportunities to do so are extremely limited. The cultural traditions make it difficult for the expat man to invite a Saudi colleague and his wife to the home for dinner. And of course in a lot of cases there is also a language barrier. Many activities are also oriented either to expats only or Saudis only. If there is an activity that is mixed, it usually will become segregated with Saudi women keeping to themselves and expat women keeping to themselves.
So how does an expat woman in the Kingdom get the opportunity to meet, know and become friends with Saudi women? Working outside of the home is usually a good opportunity. I am pleased to say that through my own work, I have had the opportunity to become friends with a number of Saudis, male and female. And with our friendship we have also visited each others homes. Naturally marriage into a Saudi family guarantees exposure to Saudi women and through these family connections, friendships will emerge.
To my knowledge there are no specific organizations which are oriented towards bringing Saudi women and expat women together for cross-cultural communications and understandings. After Ramadan concludes, a Saudi friend and I are going to make an attempt in this regard. She is going to invite a group of her Saudi friends (who also speak English) and I will invite some expat friends. Our goal is to bring these women together with an agenda towards getting to know each others customs, cultures and traditions. We anticipate friendships will emerge as well.
I believe that the expat woman who has the opportunity to also get to know the Saudi women will have a better appreciation of the Kingdom.
Filed under: America, culture, gender, relationships, Saudi Arabia
Would there be a reason that an iftar get togerther would not be practical for this group to meet? Seems a perfect time to me if you want to talk about the cultural differences etc. Maybe people will be too busy to do that this month?
Of course Saudi women and expat women can become friends! Opportunity and commonality seem to be the limiting factors, still.
I was so eager to meet Saudi women, but the opportunities were few and far between. Eventually I made friends with two of them.
Ramadan was always a good time to attend iftar gatherings, and meet Saudi women.
I’ve been a little confused about this subject too. I’ve read a couple “guides” to Saudi Arabia where customs and behavior is outlined, and I always see how Saudi courtesy and politeness is mentioned as being very very important, but then I read a lot about how most expats never really bond w/locals (feel awkward saying Saudi because isn’t that a family name that doesn’t truly apply to everyone? off the subject…).
And I’ve had a few conversations recently with someone about working there and been told they found people shockingly rude. Which surprised me and now I wonder… which is it? Can I expect formalities over coffee, or rudeness from business acquiantances with whom I’ll never bond? I was kinda looking forward to learning to soften my own rough sarcastic edges in a highly stylized society (which all I’ve read has implied), but now I’m discouraged.
Well I have to stick to Bahraini women as usual….I have found after living here so long that I can be friends with them…but most of the time its only on the surface…doesnt run too deep. At first I was hurt and felt isolated by it until I realized the cause…not a whole lot in common history wise. Pretty much all the women I have met have never climbed a tree…never went to a rodeo…never rode a bike or rollerskates. These women never went camping and fishing or a 4th of July picinc. They never spent recess chasing the boys they liked…or ignoring them…lol…or joining sport teams etc. They pretty much never dated..partied…or had that rebel punk phase that made their mothers want to pull some hair out.
While Im not saying that bahraini women never got in trouble or did anything adventurous etc (and Im not saying I was a hell raiser…not me gasp)…I am saying that we dont have much in common background wise….and so once we get the formalities out of the way…hi how are you….how long you been married…how many kids you got…are you Muslim…how long you been in Bahrain….then its pretty much long periods of silence after that…or I get fairly ignored while all the women chat about things they do have in common.
I have made a few very long term good friends here in Bahrain…none of them are Bahrainis…I know a lot of Bahraini women that I consider casual friends…and actually my very best friend is Bahraini come to think of it…but we are as opposite as night and day and weve only known each other 2 years now…and are still friends…she is the exception for sure.
I just find it hard to make long lasting friendships with women I dont have a background of similar experiences with…they automatically assume Ive been some “loose” little teenager growing up (I wasnt) and thank God I found Islam to save my soul….and I always think of them as poor little girls that never got to have fun and experience life before settling down to being wives and moms…I know its not fair…but there it is.
After I wrote this post (since a lot of my articles are written in advance of posting) my Saudi friend and I actually had our get-together. There were about 10 of us and I am happy to say that everyone present enjoyed. We had an agenda and stated upfront the gathering was specifically to bring Saudi women and foreign women together. Each woman went around the room introducing herself as well as answering why she wanted to get to know Saudis or vice versa. And I am happy to say that our next gathering will be an iftar dinner hosted by one of the Saudi women. Right now we have all met, made new acquaintances, enjoyed the time and hope that in turn this will indeed turn into new lasting friendships for many.
@Andrea: It is perfectly okay to refer to a “local” as a Saudi. The family name is Al-Saud but nationals of the Kingdom are referred to as Saudis. And don’t be discouraged about your interactions with Saudis, male or female. Saudis in general when meeting someone knew are known to be very courteous and hospitable. You are more likely to see the “ugly Saudi or rude Saudi” when you are not a known guest such as on the roads or in the malls while waiting in line.
My emphasis on expats and Saudis never bonding is due to lack of opportunity in many cases, particularly on the part of an expat woman who lives on a compound and does not work outside of the home. Then the culture makes it more limiting to be out where one has opportunities to easily meet Saudi women.
I’m happy to hear that one of your best friends is Bahraini, Coolred. Several of my closest friends here are in fact Saudi women. I don’t know if that is also because the expat women come and go from here (if not married to a Saudi) and I know that I’m a permanent resident here. Regardless, I am happy for the friendships I do have here and treasure them.
Friendships can and are made between people of different backgrounds, they’re just not that common. 15 years in the UAE and I didn’t make a single emaraty friend. And my Saudi husband was the first Saudi I met! But that didn’t stop us from getting married
So it’s about finding the similarities we share (they do exist!) and then working it out from there. I think friendships between expat women and saudi or other khaleeji women are not formed often simply because as everyone else mentioned there aren’t that many opportunities for them to get together, but surely, pave a way for friendship and you’ll watch it blossom : )
One thing I have noticed that at least with our gathering we held, when it is specifically oriented at bringing the women together to get to know one another, I feel like we all did open up more looking for the common interests. Whereas by comparison with my Saudi family it is like … okay, we are family and therefore now related, but do not necessarily make the same efforts to really talk outside of subjects like family and children and food. And usually when meeting with family, it’s not like one-on-one (at least in my experience) but in larger groups so naturally the women wish to converse among themselves in arabic.
lol, thank you Carol.. I actually stared at the screen for 10 minutes thinking.. saudi, local…er.. is it rude for ME to use Saudi? no, no.. don’t use”native”… that just sounded too “British colonial in India”.. ponder ponder ponder..
I think I’m overthinking the political correctness of everything the closer I get to being there. I’ll play mute for a month just to keep myself from saying something foot-in-mouth-ish !
Andrea, Just be yourself and I’m sure you’ll do fine!! When will you be arriving?
I was wondering when this topic would come up
Well, it goes without saying that it’s almost next to impossible to meet informally & get to know Saudi women while living in the kingdom.
As Carol pointed out, unless you are working in the Kingdom – you may never meet a Saudi. It would seem pretty strange to anyone outside of the Kingdom but unfortunately cultural differences and the language barrier don’t allow free mixing of individuals.
Socializing with Saudis is a challenge in many ways – I had an American friend married to a conservative Saudi – and going to visit her meant that her husband would have to go hide in his mothers house the entire time I was there. And she never came to visit me at my house (although we met at restaurants etc as couples). It was all a bit frustrating but I’m used to it now
Another Saudi friend I have, on the other hand, was very happy to invite us into her home and my husband could actually go along with me & we all sat together with her parents and siblings for meals. But I think that is a rare example of Expat-Saudi contact.
The only friends I do have, I found to be extremely courteous, generous and hospitable. But I don’t know enough Saudis which is why I think Carols’ initiative is GREAT and took it up faster than it takes to say ‘Saudi’!
After all, how can we go back from any kind of real feel for the country without ever meeting locals?
I meant to say ‘how can we go back from here with any kind of real feel for the country without ever meeting locals?’
This is an excelent topic, Carol.
As a woman married to a Saudi, I would LOVE to have Saudi friends, or any friends for that matter. I do work outside the home, but the women I work with are all expats as well, living on compounds and they don’t seem all that interested in life outside the compound (at least it seems that way to me). Even though I have some interaction with people outside the home, it has been very difficult for me to meet people who I have things in common with and to make friends. It’s still a mystery to me to live in such an enormous city and have no friends!
One of my fears about making Saudi friends is that it wouldn’t be the same as having “regular” friends. I would be so worried about bringing up the wrong subject, using the wrong manners, not serving the juice and coffee on time, etc, etc. Could I invite a Saudi friend over to eat takeout and watch tv in our sweatpants? Or does it always need to be such a production?
Thanks for your comments Riyadh Mom!
Yes; it really depends on the individuals families as to what traditions are observed when socializing with Saudis. For example I do have one American friend here who, when at my home had no problem to say hello to my Saudi husband but only after she had on her abaya, hijjab and niquab. So the traditions observed will certainly vary.
Interesting point I want to bring up…for the first few years I was here in Bahrain I didnt wear hijab of course…and when I visiited the house of one of my (then) husbands friends…I would generally sit with the guys and have a good time. I never sat with the ladies much less even see them. A few years later when I started wearing hijab…the first time I arrived in a friends house…I was quickly ushered into the ladies section and unceremoniously dumped on them without so much as an introduction…talk about an entrance. Ive often wondered what changed other than my hair was now covered…that it suddenly wasnt acceptable for me to sit with them anymore…I was the same person…they were the same men far as I knew…anyone…lol.
Umm Sumayah, I hope you will be able to find and make special Saudi friend. Some Saudi woman are naturally more formal and conservative. Others are more laid back and open. It really depends on their upbringing. I have both “types” (if I can say it that way) among my Saudi friends. Yes; if one is surrounded predominantly by expats and/or living on a Western compound, the options to meet and make Saudi friends are less.
My Saudi friends (and all friends actually) know by now that when it comes to getting together and entertaining that I am very laid back. I have not only introduced the casual American buffett style of eating to my Saudi family but many of them have now embraced it (and a lot of my American recipes) as well. It’s a matter of being natural and introducing each other to the different customs and traditions.
Do you not work with any Saudi women? Being married to a Saudi can work both ways – advantage and disadvantage. It can be an advantage that some Saudi women will accept you quicker and identifying you now as one of “them” or it can be a disadvantage where you are viewed as a threat and interloper. In the majority of times, I believe it is an advantage and the Saudi women are very welcoming.
That is interesting coolred that by your choice in changing your outward appearance you were then perceived and treated differently.
By the way….I know that their are Saudi guys, Arab guys and other guys who follow this blog and your comments are encouraged and welcomed too!
For the Saudi men who do follow this blog, please share with us…do your female relatives have expat friends? And if so, how did they meet them?
For other men and in Saudi with with your wife, how do you and your wife socialize? Have there been opportunities for your wife to get to know Saudi women?
Carol,
Just to clarify…I don’t live on a compound. We live in a villa with my husband’s family. That is why I have trouble making even western friends. I think that in some ways I am viewed as an outsider by both groups of women, Saudis and Expats alike.
At any rate, I am very open to making friends from any background, and I think that Saudi women are the same for the most part. It’s just getting the opportunity that can be a bit tricky.
non of my sisters know any expat woman…. but I’ll ask and see why they dont, and whether they are willing to have expat women as friends.
Another way to meet Saudis is if are going to school here. For example I am a Senior in High School at the American School here in Riyadh and I’ve met people of all sorts of Nationalities including Saudi (both boys and girls). However I never realized actually how many Muslims there were at my school until Ramadan started and the Cafeteria was almost empty at Lunchtime.
Umm Sumayah – are you in Riyadh? If so, please email me directly: american_bedu (at symbol) yahoo (dot) com
It was initially a transition for me as my husband and I live in a villa in a Saudi-only compound.
Nader – that’s great! Do your sisters speak/write English? Tell them they can start getting to know many expat women (if they want) initially through the blog!
David – Yes; you’re right. It is a lot easier for international students (and their parents) to become acquainted as the international schools especially have many activities and functions which bring the people together.
Well my experience as a Saudi woman is that not only is it rare to have events or social gathering with both Saudis and expat, the whole environment is not encouraging. Both sides make assumptions that are just not true. Just like Coolred mentioned in her first comment
“they automatically assume Ive been some loose little teenager growing up (I wasnt) and thank God I found Islam to save my soul….and I always think of them as poor little girls that never got to have fun and experience life”
Saudi women do experience life and have teenage crushes, swim, run and everything else….
And it’s not only the assumptions, it is also the language. When a non Arabic speaking expat comes into the community, she’ll most probably be on her own between a group of Saudis, kind of like a tag along that they have to stop the line of conversation every minute to translate for. And that’s not fun when you’re gossiping about the latest scandal.
I would like expat women to imagine that they were back in there own country at one of their social gatherings and someone who doesn’t speak the language attended. For the first half hour or hour they might be seen as a novelty and get a lot of attention but then how long can you keep translating every little anecdote or topic?
Eman,
I’m really happy to hear from a Saudi woman on this topic here on the blog.
Actually perhaps it is from my previous diplomatic career but I am very sensitive about language barriers and when I have a Saudi family member or friend with some of my expat friends and I know the Saudi does not understand English, I make sure the conversation is translated and they get a chance to participate. I’ve done this no matter what country I’ve lived in since I know from personal experience how frustrating it can be to not know what is being said.
However at the same time, my mother-in-law who speaks no English and me with my “continually improving arabic” have always managed to make each other understood.
I guess it is reassuring on one hand to hear from you as a Saudi how the environment is not encouraging for Saudi women and expat women to get the opportunities to mingle. Would you wish for more opportunities to do so?
Again, thanks for your comment.
Eman…ur correct in that its rather a headache to always be translating…thats one reason to try and pick up some vocabulary as quickly as you can…that way you can at least get the gist of the conversation.
I found out rather quickly that I could understand basic arabic long before I could speak it adequately…so for some time I could follow conversations and nobody around me actually knew to what extent i could understand (at first I didnt even realize I could understand them)…eventually it felt almost like eavesdropping…because they assumed I couldnt understand them and so felt free to speak their minds…and usually what they had to say was about me…and wasnt always very nice. I do recall one time when they (my in-laws etc) were having a good go at me…while I was sitting right there….and I answered them back…the look on their faces was well worth the cold shoulder I received from the lot of them for a few weeks after that….lol.
I have never been to Saudi Arabia; but in other places like Jordan, Egypt, Emirates and Yemen the one thing that always starts up the conversation is what I do for a living. Since I am in Hospital Administration they are always asking me why I am not a nurse or a doctor- and I always tell them I see more of healthcare and really look out for patients from my end of the table…that usually gets everyone talking at the same time…
With my In-Laws I always get the feeling that I am a walking encyclopedia! LOL
Coolred, good for you…I’m sure they were plenty embarrassed. I can get by, but there are so many dialects here and so many different phrases for simple things between Egyptian, Lebanese, Saudis, etc.
I have been great friends with one Saudi lady since she was a teenager and arrived in the states. She lived there for 20 years while i lived here, so we understood each other much better. We used to laugh at some of the differences.
For example, the first time she wanted to go to lunch with me, she was all decked out Saudi style and I was in my jeans and t-shirt. She said, “You want to go like that?”
A year later (after I had been in Saudi and she had been in the US), the opposite happened. She dressed down and I dressed up. I told her that I just couldn’t go out with her looking like that and she would have to change her clothes. lol Guess you had to be there.
Coolred: LOL! Excellent! served them right!
american2saudi: LOL too! I saw those meetings in my minds eye!
I am really enjoying these sharing of experiences all around!!
Things may well have changed since we left Riyadh 10 years ago, but at that time such interactions were fairly common through the Al Manahil Center in the DQ (women’s club with a gym, nice restaurant, etc. — website is http://www.almanahil.com.sa) or through activities of the Al-Nahda Philanthropic Society.
Also, there were several American women, married to Saudis, who were active in the American Women of Riyadh group and would promote get-togethers similar to what you are doing.
Umm Tom,
Thank you for your suggestions. Yes; the Al Manahil still continues to have various activities. I’m not sure about the Al-Nahda Philanthropic Society.
The American Community of Riyadh (ACR) has only recently been “reactivated.” Of course through summer and now with Ramadan there are no functions but it will start back up after Eid. Most of the activities (now at least) are with a focus on Americans and expats but some of the activities do indeed bring together Saudi and expat women.
Wow, the Al Manahil Center looks fantastic! Does anyone know if there is a place like this in Khobar? It’s so hard to find these websites looking from the US (I think..).
Al Manahil is indeed quite nice, lovely (and expensive). I don’t know if there is anything like it in Khobar though.
I think it should be mentioned that the area one lives in here in Saudi makes a huge difference. I find that here in the Khobar area it is much easier to find Saudi women in social circles of foriegn expat women. I have found that those expats who really have no interest in being a part of this country and would rather just take all they can and leave here are less likely to meet and befriend any Saudi. This goes for men and women.
in Khobar there aren’t really places like Al Manahil mostly due to compound services which are available to most. There is sunset beach which is a member only area with water park, beach, spa, resteraunts ect. For fitness there are memberships to local hotels that have women services complete with spa treatments. Saad hospital even has beauty services, work outs, indoor pool ect. But on the scale as the one pointed to in Riyadh. No.. and remember Bahrain is close enough
That is interesting to hear a perspective in regards to Khobar as compared to Riyadh. Thanks.
wow im so amazed i came upon this thread. i used to follow the blog alot awhile back but havent had much time as of late. making saudi friends have been so difficult as i always feel that it is only surface friendship. i am not in saudi but am married to one living in a western country and having to undergo the numerous invitations husband throws or going to his many friends houses only to be shuffled along to hidden side doors of houses to sit for hours amongst saudi women who for the first 5 minutes smile then for the next 5 hours speak nothing but arabic and leave me there feeling like a cushion. very very hard. luckily when it all gets too much a unoticed text from my mobile beggin to be rescued usually summons him to come to collect me. i think the hardest thing is that i am a very very talkative and sociable person so situations where translating is not in their interest or they are sitting there obviously talking about the poor western girl(thinking i know no arabic at all!) is a bit much at times. i do feel a little better when they are on my turf and the tables are turned but i can empathise with them as it is hard work and very tiring.
i am suprised though that aloth of the women i have met think it is fine to talk over someone in arabic without them understanding or to dismiss them as being there as they cant understand for hours on end. i just know myself that i would never never do this and it is the height of rudness to do so. but then thinking for awhile this is the first time in many of their lives where they have been put in a room with an english speaker let alone a non family member and this kind of ettiquette has obviously not being taught.hehehe im reading my posts and realising it seems like a whole lot of bitterness coming through about the situation.
Umm Yara – I think much is culture. Most of us from the West are raised how it is rude to talk over someone or not bring someone present in to a conversation. In the Saudi culture I believe a lot is like you said where many of the women have not been exposed to a westerner and simply don’t know what to do. They may not have the language themselves to translate and they want to visit among themselves too. What has irritated me is when I have found myself in situations similar to yours but several of the women do know english and choose to not translate or include me. So to resolve the situation I either just stopped going to such functions or I would make sure I have a book with me. I know in the Western culture it is rude to bring out a book while sitting amongst a group of people but at the same time if these same people are not including you in their conversations, it does get the point across!
Most often now I only go to those functions where I can be understood and enjoy myself. If there is a family function that I know is going to be very traditional and no English, I’ll make the minimal appearance for my husband’s sake (with book if needed).
Americanbedu.. your talking my language…I have a backpack loaded with several books that I take with me everywhere just for the purpose you mentioned. After talking over my head for an hour…they will all pause long enough to comment on my nerve to bring out a book…of course it strikes them as odd for two reasons…first of all…who reads a book at gatherings…secondly…who reads a book?…lol…sorry…just being mean there….but not by much. In my very long 21 years experience here…reading books are not high on the “things Id rather be doing”
list….sigh.
I understand you completely Coolred!
Pleased to share that Reuters picked up this post:
http://www.reuters.com/article/blogBurst/entertainment?bbPostId=B6kcqoGH9Pf8Bzn7nRZ5sNNoCzCefSsw70pWYAXSVEHhMbl0
yes exactly my feelings. although hehehe i havent resorted to the book yet although the texting on my phone seems to make a point (i hope) itis hard as i know how important it is to husband to make an appearance and to have his wife accompany him to such things. but many are a time where i feel like on show for all to judge and stare etc. being ramadan we are at the height of these wonderful invitations but i have opted out this weekend. really i feel like a stranger in my own country
Yeah…we were out last night and I took out my handy book since it was all arabic. Sounds like there is a large Saudi community in New Zealand, Umm Yara.
yes there is a large community but mostly are students here attending the universities. slowly over the last couple of years there seems to be an increase in the number of students bringing their wife and kids out with them. this ramadan i have taken to not being an eager beaver in wanting to go to any inviations. too raw from the last few episodes although i feel like im not doing myself any favours as my daughter will be half saudi and to form strong friendships with other saudi women with perhaps children of the same age would be beneficial to all.
cathykiwi – one thing I have observed which really touches my heart is how the children manage to find their way to flourishing friendship even in spite of any language barriers!