Since the Muttawa are employed by the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, I am becoming convinced that as a result, many of them are in fact obsessed with S-E-X. Think about it, their job is to go out strolling in pairs and looking for couples who do not look as if they “fit right” together so they can be challenged to show their papers proving their relationship or looking for women whose abayas may be perceived as too short or showing too much hair in spite of wearing a hijjab. They also are tolerated for thinking of activities that could be perceived as provocative and attracting attention of the opposite sex such as an individual walking a dog (or cat) in the hopes of meeting others…. Gee, I always heard that a man with a baby was a good “babe” magnet as well…. The muttawa better keep an eye out for them too. The man may actually be in the market for a second wife and using his child as bait, huh?
Seriously, how many of you know of happy or positive muttawa stories? When has the muttawa been a help and not a hindrance? What is the typical background of a muttawa? What kind of training do they need to complete before being a certified muttawa? And can you imagine if some computer-literate muttawa were turned loose on the internet? Heaven forbid, the networks would be shut down!
Filed under: Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Women Issues, abbya, islam, religion
Carol this is a very provocative post. Why instigate such a negative disscussion on the night before Ramadan?
I really don’t want to bore your readers with verses from the Quran and sayings of our Prophet about enjoining the good and forbidding the evil, as many will only mock them anyway. Rather, I would like to focus my comments on hyprocracy of Muslims. A hypocrite in Islam is not the same as a hypocrite in the linguistic sense. In Islam a hypocrite is one that is outwardly proclaiming Islam but in their heart is a real hatred of it. This post will be sure to bring out a lot of nifaq in the people.
`Aa’id Abdullah al-Qarnee says in his book 30 Signs of the Hypocrites:
The Exalted, says:
They order that which is evil and forbid that which is good. [Soorah at-Tawbah (9):67]
The people turn towards the Qiblah and they turn away from it. You will find that when you speak to him with “Allaah says and His Messenger says…” He says: “O brothers! Give us a rest! As for us, we know the Religion. By Allaah! We are more knowledgeable than you. The Religion is well known and divulged and so is the knowledge too.” However, when you ask him about the prostration of forgetfulness, he does not know his knee from his elbow and he does not really know anything about the Religion. In due course, we will mention another characteristic of theirs, that is lack of understanding of the Religion.
They command the evil and forbid the good, desiring the obscenity is spread amongst those who believe and that the hijaab is abandoned. You will notice some writers nowadays calling for the liberation of women, the abrogation and removal of the hijaab as well as the spread of songs and (obscene) magazines for the morally depraved. All of this is commanding evil and love for obscenity. Alas, such (a loss) that they do not desire any good or justice. They only desire that goodness diminishes and that the knowledge and calling to Allaah also diminishes. Allaah will overturn them and their desires.
…
That is what distinguishes the hypocrites, that they and all praise be to Allaah, do not understand a thing about the Religion. The hypocrite knows how to drive a car and its mechanics, he knows the nations of the world and their capitals, he also knows lots of trivial things and various other useless facts which do not benefit him, if they do not harm him. However, when you approach him with things from the Religion which are common knowledge, he doesn’t know a thing about them.
Allaah, the Sublime, says:
“But the hypocrites do not understand.” [Al-Qur'aan, Al-Munaafiqoon (63):7]
they are rather like US border officers – never a good story about those guys and it’s always a relief if they talk less and wave you in after a few questions – all stories about them are trouble!
regarding the muttawa’s obsession with sex, well someone has to employ Saudis!
When I lived in Riyadh, and studied at several local madrassas, one of the teachers asked for positive muttawa stories.
If we hadn’t been respectful Muslim women, we would have said something more blunt than, “You’re kidding, aren’t you?”
One woman did come up with a nice muttawa story. The rest of us could not. Guess what we talked about after class?
I’m not prone to quoting the Qur’an or hadith, except for a few succinct gems, such as this one: “There is no compulsion in religion.” Surat Al Baqara, Ayah 256.
Carol, What a beautiful photo. You just do not know how much I miss those bright smiling faces!
Note there will be many that want to change this into a requirement of the religion. Yes the religion asked Muslims to prevent vice and encourage goodness. However, there is no where in Islam where it required forming an organization for this function. There is also no Sunnah text where this has occurred during the prophet period. So this is a CHOICE not a command from Allah.
Now that we have established that we can discuss without offense to anyone’s religions believes.
Regarding Carol’s question. No I cannot find one good example of this group performing good deeds that would not have been performed better by a well trained police force. Now someone may find a few good stories, but do they outweigh the countless horrible stories. Every person that have come in contact with these people have felt harassed, humiliated or worse physically abused. I remember the days when they used to roam the streets with sticks and hit women for minor offenses like showing a body part by mistake.
There are core problem in the philosophy of this organization:
- People are inherently evil: they view that everyone with suspicion especially women. This is why if they see a woman walking alone in the street they follow her and watch every move she does. What else can she be up to but evil. That also explains the obsession with sex and Khalwah.
- Goodness and morality can be achieves by force: They have been at this for decades and have not made an impact in people’s behavior. Quite the opposite, there is more crime and bad behavior in Saudi than we ever had. A better approach would have been to educate families on how to raise better kids.
- A strict religious code that goes beyond what is required by Allah. A good example Islam did not require closing shops for prayers with the exception of Friday’s prayer. There are many other examples of this like the definition of Khalwah.
By the way the role of the commission does not end at harassing people. they also get involved in approval of functions by businesses, any literature to be published, advertisement billboards, etc.
This is a choice that Saudi Arabia made and we can do better by eliminating the group and letting all their functions be conducted by other agencies.
What exactly would a retired muttawa do I wonder…
Considering our Prophet advised us not to judge people by their outter actions(such as seeing them pray in the mosque etc)….I dont know what allows these men to walk around and make snap judgements of people that are never beneficial to them. Isnt it better to assume something good of others than to assume the worst? Treating an entire society as if they are not capable of choosing good over bad and need to be driven towards good like cattle…is just degrading and humiliating…eventually the cattle get spooked and stampede…and in the words of cowboys the world over…its every man(or woman) for themself when that happens. Nothing good can come from such abosolute control over peoples lives…history proves that.
I too am interested in what training is undertaken, or even what background the muttawas have.
I just read Lipstick Jihad, which focuses on the author’s (2nd generation Iranian) experiences in Iran, and she talks about Iran’s version of the morality police. Her description makes me think of it less of a religion or morality thing and more of a power thing. In the book, they are described as coming from lower-income, less-educated families, being taught (brainwashed, the book says) into accepting only a very strict interpretation of the Quran, then given unlimited power to harass and bully. Could there be parallels with the Saudis? Power trips from people who might otherwise, socially or economically, have felt powerless? Bullies being given free rein?
As I understand a number of them are ex-convicts. That as part of their rehabilitation program they had the opportunity to become muttawa. I imagine few are what one would call educated and likely little exposure to society.
The only thing I was told when I asked some Saudis to tell me a good muttawa story is that vaguely they’ve broken up prostitution rings…but no substantive details like how, when, where…
I really would like to know what training they have. I’d like to hear where they have had a positive effect. But I’m not sure if that is possible.
As a child in Jeddah, a muttawa did not like how I was placing my foot, while praying. The idiot twisted my foot, though lucky for me I screamed and I moved away from him. After the prayers my father gave took this muttawa to the side and gave a long lecture but it was no use. The muttawa’s friend came along and started accusing my father of not being a good Muslim. These idiots (I am really trying to be kind here) are real disgrace to Islam and representation of Muslims.
All of them should be locked up in a mental asylum and given electric shock therapy.
Ok, now I need to relax. All this has really worked me up. I can continue with stories of these idiots but I should refrain myself.
I ‘ve read a lot about them going after women, with sticks etc, about their hair. Not one single story about pursuit of men doing wrong. I mean, if they walk past an alley and I’m getting raped by 3 guys it sounds like they’re going to hit ME with sticks, and ignore the dude molesting a child down the way. Thank God I’m going to Khobar and not Riyadh, is all I can think about them.. I’m likely to react the same way I said I would in a reckless driving accident. Not pretty.
Carol,
I am surprised by your post. I’m rather shocked!! I’ll ask you one simple question. Did you read John Paul Jones’ book?? He wrote a positive story about the CPVPV, and he’s not a Saudi, nor is he a Muslim!
What happened to what they do regarding drugs? What happened to what they do regarding prostitution? What happened to what they do in terms of propagation of virtue? What happened to what they do regarding DUI? I wonder why you, Carol, chose to neglect all these!!
The media and the people are busy narrating the negative stories, and no one sheds any light to the positive ones. You just proved this point, Carol, by your post and the questions you raised!
I do acknowledge that they make mistakes, probably lots of mistakes, sometimes overwhelming mistakes, but so does every one, and so does every government entity in every country. Why then focus on the mistakes of the CPVPV alone? I wonder!
I am not a great fan of the CPVPV, and I’m NOT trying to defend them, but that doesn’t give me the right to bash them, it doesn’t give me the right to suggest that they are perverts, it doesn’t give me the right to turn my face away from their positive role (albeit minimal) in the society.
I think we need to be balanced, unbiased and fair, especially when discussing controversial issues such as this one. Only then we will make our voices heard, and thus we might make a difference!
“I think we need to be balanced, unbiased and fair, especially when discussing controversial issues such as this one. Only then we will make our voices heard, and thus we might make a difference!”
Wishful thinking Nader. You sound like a bright young person, though a lot to learn on human nature and reality facing KSA.
May I ask you a question? Why we do not have more brighter people becoming part of the commission? Why do we not have higher standard of education for this group? Please reflect on this and then you may find the answers.
Nader,
First, a blogger does not have the duty of a journalists to investigate both sides. It is the freedom of something Novel called the Internet that allows an individual to voice his/her opinion. So your criticism of Carol is based on the wrong assumptions.
With all due respect, I think you are the one being unfair here. The CPVPV has been around for a long time and they have money and power to serve the public (or at least that should be the intent). Have you asked yourself, why is it that the majority of people, when asked privately, have a low opinion of the organization? Why with all the money they spend on public relations they cannot change the perception?
And where are all these successes. They certainly have had a lot of exposure. I have never seen any statistics from them that shows the number of cases. As a Saudi this is public money, are they showing us what return we are getting for it. They look like a disorganized group, so I have very high doubts that they do efficient work in combating any crime. Why would we need them to combat drugs and the other crimes you listed anyway, that is the job of the police. It is called using resources efficiently.
Since you raised the questions of fairness, why don’t you do some research and comeback with data on that area. Show us the information so we can be fair to them. I am not saying they do not occasionally bust a drug dealer, I am saying are these benefits close enough to justify all the problems and spending on the group. Your data has to show enough successes to overcome the group’s negativity. If you can do that, I will get pom poms and start doing a cheer for them. You know how that goes Give me a C, Give me a P, etc.
Allahol mosta’aan…
I won’t say much, other than please read this beautiful post by brother Shariq over at minjid.com; the ‘good’ stories you seek. Although I have so many good stories, and having had the pleasure to meet with several, I don’t honestly feel that it would change their image in the eyes of those who have already made judgment.
Ramadan Kareem everyone.
p.s. UmmAdam barak Allaho feeki for that comment in the beginning.
To be fair there *are* positive stories of the CPVPV out there. But I think Saudi in the US said it best. None of them unachievable by a well trained police force. The CPVPV’s mission is fundamentally flawed. Are they a police force? An equivalent of vice police elsewhere? If so, they are extremely unprofessional and detached from any proper police methodology. Are they “keepers of righteousness”? If so, who gave them the holy mandate of *forcing* their narrow (and individually different) interpretation of Islam? I thought that “there is no compulsion in religion”.
I believe I would be one of the first to post and broadcast of a positive muttawa experience. Sadly, I’ve not been privvy to anything specific. As I mentioned in an earlier comment when asking for positive experiences all I got were vague answers. What I did not say in that earlier comment was that the conversation would then segue with no prompting into all the negative stories.
So that’s why I ended my post posing the questions asked. Who exactly are they? I’d love to interview one and give him a chance to have his say. And I do agree with comments several have made in regards to why should the muttawa “police” if the issue is recognized as a crime such as narcotics, rape, illegal alcohol or prostitution? I believe those issues should be fully under the jurisdiction of the police.
So in closing, find me a cooperative muttawa who will be allowed to be interviewed by a woman and I’d be happy to post his views.
Saudi Jawa,
Here is the exact verse from the Q’uran in reference to no compulsion in religion:
“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from Error; whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.”
Sura Al-Baqara verse 256
I think Bedu has been very delicate (again) in approaching this issue. I think it’s interesting that everybody, even the protagonists, misread this post into a muttawa bashing. Before it has even started, now I think it will eventually and inevitably end in muttawa-bashing, but that will nòt be in response of what Bedu wrote.
The muttawa are quite good in inspiring that themselves.
And I will happily contribute, not because I live in Saudi, but because I love all people on the planet Earth, and cannot help but feel for the oppressed, but I have to prepare my High tea, and cook and bake.
Sorry for that, nobody told me I was supposed to start Ramadan a day early.
And what a pity bedu, I am still working on my ”Are you a muttawa-prospect” quiz!
Ali,
I know a few people in the group to. Some are good men. One is a very close friend of our family and has high morals. However, you are missing the point of the mission, the abuse of power and whether an organization like this is really needed. Everyone can produce stories. We are talking about an organization, we should know metrics of their success not singular stories. That is statistics and data that explains their being. I truly want to be fair to them regarding the recent press. However, when I see their leadership not acting to discipline the employees, when they behave badly, then the entire organization loses credibility.
We are not talking about petty cases here, people are getting killed and all the leadership did is get defensive instead of doing the right thing and launch serious investigations.
Saudi Jawa,
I agree with you about police methodology. Think about fighting drugs. Is the CPVPV capable of doing undercover work to discover networks? The fact that they stop a person with drugs does not mean they are effective crime fighters. Like the saying goes “Even a blind squirrel can find an acorn now and then… “
Thank you Aafke! Yes, you got the entire point of my post.
Saudi in US – You also make me think…in most other countries, government ministries, organizations, companies, charities and people are just held accountable for their actions both good and bad. With the muttawa, there does not seem to be enough information so of course, we can only go on what is provided and published as well as of course the personal experiences and from there draw our conclusions. And since the muttawa receives public money, yes…I would ilke to know what training, and how is the money being spent to serve the true purpose.
Does the muttawa have a web site? Does it have a mission statement? What are their hiring requirements? After al, unless one is hired as a laborer, employment requirements are high and stringent in KSA.
Definitely an issue that SHOULD be raised, one day before the commencement of Ramadan. It is an issue of virtue and vice, good and evil.
Nader, who posted above, is quite correct. I did write about the mutawaa doing some GOOD, remarkable good even. They may have saved my daughter’s life. What happened, specifically? When she was 14 years old she walked the one block from our KFSH housing compound in Al Marooj to the MEED store. A civil policeman saw her, told her to get into his police car, which she did. There was ZERO justification for this. What could have been her fate has been in the Arab News, which has reported the execution of two policeman for taking a young child to the desert, raping, and killing him / her. Fortunately some mutawaa saw these events, freed her from the police car, and took her back to the housing compound. A job very well done, and they should be commended.
But what else did I say? I related the two incidents, one involving my wife, the other involving my son. Both should be classified as “senseless harassment.” My wife had the moxie, and cleverness to respond in a way that almost made the mutawaa laugh. But still, like virtually all women, she is deeply insulted when a complete strange (in more ways than one) man approaches her, tells her she should be more “moral,” as though she is a prostitute. My son was 16 at the time, in Faisaliyah mall, when another strange man is yelling at him about his responsibilities for “his women” (meaning his mother and sister). It is a completely alien concept for a Western teenage boy. As he said to me that night, in precise terms, these people are an extremely poor advertisement for their religion.
And I also related in detail what happened to me, which was by far the worse – not simply because it had occurred to me – but because it was entirely untrue. With my son and my wife I cannot say that. I will not relate the entire tale again here (it is in the book), but I was enjoying a wonderful weekend in Shaqra, which concluded with a tour of the old part of town. Two mutawaa found us, deep in the old part of the town (they had to walk at least a couple hundred meters). I was accused of making a pornographic movie (Yes, that obsession they have with sex!), smoking near a mosque (I have never smoked in my life), “disrespecting Salah” (whatever that means) but most ominously, attempted assault against the mutawaa. Fortunately Abdullah Al Sadhan intervened with some of the top Saudi leadership, and pointed out, among other matters, that since one of our party was the wife of the American ambassador (Ann Jordan), this could be a significant diplomatic incident. We were eventually released, but ONLY after I had signed a “confession” in Arabic, and promised never to do it again.
Of the many sad aspects of this case, I remember looking over at the second mutawaa, a 19 year old or so, still struggling to grow his beard. I asked him if all of this was true. He nodded in the affirmative. Where is the virtue in this training – being taught to lie as part of his apprenticeship?
Worse still is what followed. At the urging of some Saudi friends, I filed a formal letter of complaint. It was sent to Prince Salman, the Governor of Riyadh. I personally gave a copy of the letter to his son, Prince Sultan bin Salman, the Director of Tourism, in a meeting I had with him (among other matters, I strongly believe in the potential of tourism in the country, but you obviously cannot have someone who is on the government payroll accosting tourists, and falsely accusing them of immoral behavior). And I gave a copy of my complaint to Dr. Abdul Rahman Al Nuaim, the Chief Operating Officer (at the time) at King Faisal Specialist Hospital. As my sponsor, they would have had to come to Shaqra to obtain my release if Abdullah Al Sadhan had not – KFSH should have a strong interest in ensuring their employees are not falsely charged. It was never just my word against the mutawaas – there were six other Western witnesses, including two physicians from KFSH, as well as the Ambassador’s wife, plus the Saudi national (known to us only as Fahd) who had so graciously agreed to show us around.
Not one of the three individuals to whom I gave the complaint responded.
And that is the first step in correcting many of the mutawaa abuses of power. Holding them accountable for their actions, and having them pay compensation to victims who have clearly been abused. Each society has “bad cops,” the measure of a society is how it deals with these miscreants. Ignoring their actions only encourages further wrong doing.
So, within my only family, there was one positive interaction with the mutawaa, three negatives. How typical is that? I suspect that our percentage is skewed towards the positive. No one should ever be falsely accused of immoral behavior, and sadly, with their “training” or lack of same, and the emphasis on seeing sex everywhere, it occurs far too often.
Since returning to the United States, I have also filed a formal complaint with the Society itself. As with the other three cases, it has been ignored. All of us will know that some progress is being made when a formal investigation of what occurred in Shaqra had been made, and I receive a formal apology.
- John Paul Jones
I’ve heard of two stories of how people become Muttawa. The first one is that they failed in Imam School and the second was that some of them were convicted of crimes and serving as a Muttawa is their sentence. I find that the younger Muttawa are usually more reasonable. This summer My whole family went on a weekend to Bahrain. When we were in the train station in Dammam waiting for our train back to Riyadh a older Muttawa came up to my Dad and started chewing him out for my mother who was wearing her headscarf having a little bit of her hair stick out. He walked away rather soon after chewing out my Dad because there were three ladies fully covered who were staring at that Muttawa as if they wanted to take off their shoes and hit him over the head (as is custom occasionally in Riyadh). As my Dad says if looks could kill I think that Muttawa would have been dead. I’ve heard however of a city or town near Jeddah that ran the Muttawa out of town since they were disgusted with them and they wont let them back in.
Abutaza – thank you so much for coming forward and sharing your experiences. They certainly make interesting dinner table conversation – especially being accused of making a pornographic movie! What is it that the muttawa jump first to worse possible conclusions? There certainly is no innocence until proven guilty here.
Yet by comparison, thank God the muttawa were indeed around when your daughter had the encounter with the civil police.
Thanks for sharing your experience and what you have heard David on how muttawa become muttawa. I wonder if there are any young boys who say to themselves, “I’d like to be a muttawa when I grow up.”
One of my dear friends– a Saudi psychiatrist– once told me that muttaween were men who suffered from severe personality disorders, and therefore could not excel in ordinary endeavors.
Interesting and powerful statement Marahm.
It also seems to just reinforce that it is difficult to learn positive stories about the muttawa as individuals and making a good viable contribution to the society here.
Although I wrote about it in earlier posting, I’ll share my husband’s own experience with a muttawa. He was in the mosque praying and when the prayer was finished a muttawa told my husband that his thobe was too long and his beard too short! What are they trying to do? My husband decided not to go to that particular mosque anymore so as not to be continually bothered.
I’m sure the Mutawwa have done some good, but whatever that may be, it is sadly and obviously outweighed by the bad. I had a friend who was harrassed about her abaya being too tight in the chest area (she was nursing at the time) and it nearly brought her to tears. My question is…why were they looking at her chest to begin with? What about lowering the gaze? My other annoyance is going around harassing, yes harassing, people who do not run immediately to prayer. Why aren’t the mutawwa praying? Why are the riding around in a jeep using a megaphone to yell at people when THEY should be praying too? If someone doesn’t hasten to the call to prayer, that is his business. We don’t need anyone to force the issue.
And I agree with you, Abutaza. This is exactly the kind of thing that needs to be talked about, regardless if Ramadan is approaching or not. Why should we not talk about our problems during Ramadan? And your young son is very wise…all to often the Mutawwa are a bad advertizement for Islam.
Just because this is an Islamic country, and the Mutawwa call themselves Muslims, doesn’t mean they are free from error, or immune to criticizm.
I enjoyed your comment very much Umm Sumayah.
Yes; regular readers will find that I do not shy away from sensitive or difficult subjects whether it is Ramadan or not. Perhaps Ramadan can remind us to try and be more objectionable, rationale and less emotional when discussing such issues….I guess we’ll see as the month continues!
Stay tuned…I’ve a wide variety of postings coming up for this month.
just like every other human beings, they’re not perfect either.
i’ve read numerous stories and articles about them and hardly any positive ones out of these stories and articles but nonetheless, they’re doing their job even if their methods are not to the liking of anyone out there.
also, i would like to wish carol and other muslims reading this blog a blessed ramadan
Ramadan Mubarak Firdaus and thank you for your comment.
I think this discussion has been good to bring an understanding. I think most of us have dealt with this in a constructive manner, since no one is denying that there are some good incidents. The question the majority have asked is whether the benefits outweigh the issues this group creates?
What is even more important is that the group has been asking to be armed. This is a scary proposition, as they have shown poor controls in treating the public. Fortunately the request was rejected, but the public need to keep up on awareness as this may come up again in the future.
Armed mutawwa? NOT a good idea at all!
I think they are control freaks as it is. P-L-E-A-S-E !
@Ali
(this is a little late but just didn’t have time before)
In all fairness to you – I just read Shariq’s account on your blog.
Sure – the only time I’ve ever encountered the Mutaween, they were extremely polite. I was rather blown away because all I’ve ever heard of them involves some form of verbal aggression, harassment or disrespect.
However, it doesn’t change the fact that there are far more negative stories reported than positive incidents. And you have to wonder, why? If they really do so well as an organization, why don’t we hear/see more evidence of it? What exactly are the advantages to having them around anyway and what positive things have they done in the past that make them so indispensable? It sure would be good to know.
I really am not biased or rigid in my views – I just want to know how my life is enriched by having them around?
I do remember the time when they used to carry sticks and sat around on street corners – or anywhere really. I also remember being struck on my legs by one of those sticks one day (I was between 6-7 years old, don’t remember exactly what age) because I was wearing a dress. I was no older than 7!!! I don’t think I did anything wrong to ask for such treatment and I was a kid – therefore dressed as one.
So – imagine these guys armed?!!
I’ve got a story where the Muttawa where helpful though. My Mother had a friend who took our compounds shopping bus to the Clock tower. After she had finished her shopping she got back on the bus and waited for everyone else to get back. She and several other women were on the bus sitting and chatting when a group of youths came up to the bus and started pounding on the windows and shaking the bus. So the bus driver told a Muttawa what was happening and he chased the youths away. I mean he chased after them for a good 10 minutes to make sure that they wouldnt come back. He then came back to make sure that everyone was ok.
Why on earth would the muttawa want to carry arms? They are not the police! That is a disturbing statement and all the more reason to have a candid discussion on understanding them and their mission.
Riyadh Mom – I think it is appalling that a muttawa would have the gall to hit a child, a little girl, with a stick!
David – that is good to hear a positive story like that and given they were at Clock Tower I’m sure it was easy to find many muttawa around and about there.
Carol,
Here is the link to the weapons story:
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2008/me_saudis0243_06_16.asp
Note the comment about the organization being despised. Instead of the president asking why young men despise his organization, he wants to take up arms.
Just so no one forgets, this is the organization that stopped elementary school girls from escaping a burning building in Makkah, resulting in the death of 15 innocent girls (most under 12 years old) and never accepted responsibility.
Saudi in US,
If the commission members do take up arms, the situation in KSA may lead to a civil unrest unlike we have ever seen. I sincerely doubt the authorities will allow this (I hope). This is not the direction anyone wants KSA led to.
In my view the real challenge facing KSA is not the Commission but the growing disparity of wealth and what some do not wish to admit the sectarian differences. We are reactionary people and some elements use this Commission to instill fear in the public. Another reason of having the least educated group of people being members of this Fear Squad. Yes, I do know that many god people are part of this Commission but they are the silent few.
I am being careful of not saying more. You are an intelligent man and must understand what I am trying to share.
god = good,
eeks….I just read the article from the link provided by Saudi in the US. I’m amazed that two reputable institutions in the Kingdom endorsed that the muttawa should be allowed to carry arms for their protection?!?!?!
I’m surprised that two reputatable organizations endorsed this suggestion.
I’m surprised that the muttawa want to carry arms for their protections. (I guess their sticks are not enough…) Okay, that was sarcastic mode….it does state in the article that they want arms due to threats and harrassment from youth. hmmmm…. now that sounds like a real solution….don’t want the Muttawa to be viewed like the Israeli soldiers when a Palestinian youth throws a stone… darn….. my sarcasm keeps coming through but I am sharing the visions and thoughts I have when I read that link.
Saudi Arabia wants an Islamic police force? I thought Saudi Arabia already had an islamic police force AND the muttawa…
SH:
Yes; you bring up some other very good salient points on the problems and issues that need to be faced. And while I grumbled on above, I agree that it is unlikely the muttawa would be sanctioned to legally carry arms…besides…muttawa are supposed to always be accompanied by a police officer who is indeed sanctioned to carry arms.
Just wanted to add this link from Crossroads Arabia which contains a very recent article on the request of some muttawa to have access to the blocked pornographic web sites. The reason? To help them “monitor” immoral practices. hmmm….
http://xrdarabia.org/2008/08/31/saudi-vice-cops-seek-access-to-porn-sites/
Ha ha ha ha ha ha… Well, if the Vice Squad is online on the porn sites, that will be one way to keep them off the streets and out of the malls. I have never seen anything positive with this group in 30 years here. They walk down the hallways of malls like they own the place and they have that ‘better than thou’ attitude which no one appreciates. Sort of reminds me of being a kid at school and being afraid of the principal with the big paddle. Although I never got hit, the ‘threat’ was there. I think it makes a rebellious person want to be naughty even more. : )
I can just picture it…a muttawa stares at his computer screen unil he is glassy eyed. Then he gets into his muttawamobile and goes to one of the malls but still having the images of a buxom beauty in his mind. As he is patrolling the malls he will swear that the eyes of a woman are one of the same of the buxom beauty who so capitivated him and led him to immoral thoughts that he will be determined he is going to whisk her away and out of sight and pull out his newly issued pistol to enforce her cooperation if necessary….
(the above is for those who read the two suggested articles and link them together like I just did…)
If a blonde woman in KSA goes to the gym everyday, tutors English at a different house each night, and has the audacity to shop at the malls and bake cookies during her free time….who knows what ideas they’d come up with! Oh my gosh…that’s my schedule! : )
Better duck and run and only go out in disguise A2S! (LOL)
Hmmm. Great idea Carol, but the mutawa live in my neighborhood and patrol the streets. At 5′8, even completely covered from head to toe, I stand out like a sore thumb! And I refuse to be intimidated by them anymore. It’s a cat and mouse game that they love to play. I’m sure that I’ve been hired by ‘checkers’ a few times….they’re so sure that I’m after every Saudi father of my students. What they don’t realize is that I’ve already got a Saudi ‘prince’ at home….a tall, dark, handsome one at that. Why else would I be living in a desert at the ends of the earth? But, hey, let them help me fill up my schedule and add money to my stock market account. No complaints here.
I had no idea that the muttwawa could be that active in Jeddah….I thought it was mainly Riyadh and Al Qaseem! Is your home near a mosque that they frequent or something?
I thought every woman is going out in ”disguise” in KSA???
Anyway, really interesting topic, also good to read that with a lot of probing we managed to read some positive accounts of muttawa actions.
Still not nearly good enough in my opinion: any group responsible of letting 14 young schoolgirls die, just because they were ”not properly dressed” has lost any right for existance éver! ”properly dressed” which means abayas, óver their normal modest clothes. And children too! That is só sick! They could have gone out in bikinis to safe their lives! They could have been naked their lives are of more account!!! If I had been one of their parents they would have needed guns because I would have made it my life’s goal to kill every muttawa I could lay my hands on for as long as I lived.
Just thinking about some other recent stories, like beating a man to death, chasing four people to their deaths in a car-chase, Falsely accusing and leaving a woman and her two daughters behind, on their own, after crashing their car! So without male guardian, and with a crashed car. Not even gentlemanly behaviour.
All this without any consequenses for the murderers!
And what about the woman and man arrested for continuing their businessmeeting an a starbuck’s because they needed the internet connection? A Public place, surrounded by other people, yet they called it khulwa? And Strip-searching the woman!!!!!!
And tossing her clothes back on the disgusting toilet-floor, swimming with filth and waste, and forcing her to wear those soiled stinking garments, how is she supposed to pray in that state?
No, there is way too much unpunished evil created by these mentally retarded creeps to give them any right of existence.
”What do the muttawa think about” is the title of this post, You allready said it: It is SEX. It’s difficult to imagine, because for us normal people there are so many other things you can do, but apparently the muttawa can only think about sex. everything they see, they see in a sexual context, so:
camera=film=porn=sex=bad
hair=pretty=sex=whore
little girl=sex=whore
woman going shopping=sex=adulteress=whore
woman teaching=sex=whore
woman and man=sex=adultery
woman and man drinking coffee in public=sex=adultery
woman going shopping with daughters=sex=adultery=whores
woman talking=sex=whore
woman=sex=bad=whore
Other societies recognise such people as dangerous perverts, and a danger to society and innocent people, and lock them up in nice sanatoria where they are well cared for and nèver let loose again!
You know Aafke, I am surprised that we did not hear more from the parents of those poor poor school girls. I just cannot imagine the parents condoned keeping the girls locked in the burning school due to lack of proper covers.
When I read your comment, I also realize that the incidents you cited are overall pretty recent which to me should be indicative of how little trained they are; how they are overstepping the lines; and just how inappropriate so many of the apprehensions have been. And yet they are still here and keep going on…
So trying to be balanced here (and frankly on this subject it is difficult to do so)…. what is a positive role they could and should play? I realize I’m probably dreaming here since it’s unlikely to happen but let’s play along and see what all we can come up.
I like the idea how they protect the women being hassled by the youth. Yes; if they could perhaps focus and work with the youth that could be one avenue. I don’t know…it’s hard to think of other suggestions…
Carol,
There is no function this organization can perform if logic is applied. Working with youth is out, who wants his/her kids to be exposed to this mentality. The organization should be completely taken down.
The functions for policing should be given to the POLICE the functions for educating should be given to EDUCATORS. Calling people for prayer should be left to Allah’s direction through AZHAN (that is exactly the intent of it).
Now there are some good people in the organization that can be retrained to do functions in other government ministries.
Any other solutions really do not make any sense. But of course we are dreaming her of a logical place.
I càn imagine a force for good, my I am selfishly keeping it for a post on my own blog!
Yeah….. (sigh)…..it is really hard to garner up positive comments and thoughts about the muttawa.
But Saudi in US…tell us about the good people in the organization. Where are they? What are their roles?
And maybe I’m talking to myself here, but why are the muttawa still kept on then?
For those who seek the truth
“Reports that actions by members of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice were instrumental in causing the deaths and injuries of Saudi students are false”.
No single western media station reported this fact or reported the findings of the investigation of that fire although they were all quick in considering it “breaking news” when it first happened and when false reports spread out.
http://www.saudiembassy.net/2002News/Statements/StateDetail.asp?cIndex=143
http://213.136.192.26/2002jaz/mar/18/ln12.htm
http://www.alriyadh.com/Contents/2002/03/26-03-2002/page12.html#7
Website for the commission:
http://www.hesbah.gov.sa
That’s a small example of how media controls your minds.
Global Muslim,
Thanks for your comments and the links. Yes; media can certainly influence – no doubt about that.
I’m looking forward to checking out the Commission’s web site (if english is an option)
well for those of you who do not know arabic do not bother to go to the Commission web site unless you just want to see how it is laid out. I’ll have to revisit it myself when I have an arab reader beside me.
Global,
There is no public visibility into these investigation. Any version of events can be developed.
The fact is there are too many eyewitness reports to collaborate what was reported in the news. This incident happened in a densely populated area.
The reason a lot of these incidents do not get reported may have to do with the inverted pyramid building (some have other names for it as well, like the spaceship). News is filtered and stories are changed to appease the masses and world opinion.
Hi Carol,
I know that Jeddah is so very different than Riyadh in regards to the strictness of man and women being together in public and women covering their hair and such. Personally, I am muslim, and I do cover my hair. But I think even if I wasn’t, I would because my hair is really long and quite reddish blonde and since it is just different than what people (okay, men) are used to seeing, I am sure that being uncovered would draw unwanted attention. I have many muslim and nonmuslim friends that do not cover their hair and in all the times I have been out in the city, I had never even seen a Muttawa, no less been harrassed by them.
The only time in the 9 months I have even seen Muttawa I happened to be alone at one of the popular old souks here in old Jeddah. Like I said, I cover, but I still look far from being a local and one man decided that he would go out of his way to talk to me and follow me about the souk. Ater about a half an hour of his winking and him tossing bits of paper at me with his mobile number on them, I was visable upset. One of the shopkeepers sent his young relative out to talk to me (he spoke really good English) and asked if the man was bothering me. I said yes and he told me to stand inside the shop for a bit. I did and the boy dissapeared. I spent a few minutes looking at material I would never have any use for and then the boy returned and told me he had told the Muttawa I was being bothered by a man. I thought it was interesting because I had never seen any Muttawa in the souk before. I thanked him and left the shop and once outside the man began the paper tossing again and chatting. I decided to call my driver to come get me because I was so uncomfortable. About 5 minutes later while I was waiting to be picked up, I heard quite loudly from behind me the man’s voice and a few other voices. I turned to see him rapidly and loudly speaking to a police officer and two Muttawa The officer came and asked me what was on the papers the man had been tossing at me and I told him numbers and that after the first once he threw at me, I just dropped them without looking at them. He said “thank you” and walked back to the man and two Mutawwa. Then they escorted the man away. My arabic is not good enough for me to understand what he said, but I am assuming the Muttawa were watching him at the shopkeeper’s relatives request. So, my only experience with the Muttawa in Saudi has been quite good. I was really quite relieved to see them.
I have heard stories from friends who have been here for awhile that they have been told to cover their hair, but they said that the Muttawa were very polite and after they covered thanked them for doing so.
I guess I should be grateful my experience was a good one. Or maybe I should be thankful that Jeddah is more relaxed.. I am not sure which. Regardless, I was very happy to see them and felt better after my brief encounted with them.
Carol,
‘Mutawwa’ thinking can be trained or untrained. It’s that ’state of mind’ that everything women do here is bad and that women should be kept in a closed, dark room …. and seen only when and ‘if’ her husband/brother/father says so. Ok, sometimes it’s for protection…but many guys take matters into their own hands.
The drivers in the streets, for example, can sometimes be the ‘unhired’ mutawwa that I’m speaking of….especially if they work for anyone special or super religious.
A mosque nearby? Are you kidding? I don’t know about Riyadh, but there is a mosque on almost every corner of every little neighborhood … all within walking distance in Jeddah.
Elizabeth, thank you for sharing your experience. It was very refreshing to hear about that. Yes…the paper tossing after initially humorous can be quite annoying.
You also raise a good point A2S about how some individuals like a driver can become a “self-appointed” muttawa.
Okay…I meant a mosque across the street from your house…yes, I believe there always is a mosque within walking distance throughout Saudi!
Global Muslim, where is the transparancy when it comes to any “investigation” by Saudis? Do you even comprehend this principle at all?
Ah, the muttawa. They do “get the juices flowing,” so I thought I’d add a couple more points to what I said above, and also in partial response to some of the other posters.
One of the larger problems is that there is not an official standard for what is “acceptable” in terms of a woman’s dress. With traffic rules, for example, you have red and green lights, speed limits, etc…. and policeman can, more or less, make a reasonable judgment if you violated those standards. But with dress, there is not a standard that is officially promulgated – even on such a straight forward matter as to covering the face, or hair. When I advised the numerous women who arrived in the Kingdom, in the mid-90’s, who were part of the Saudi- US University project at KFSH, on what was “acceptable”, I told them there were not real rules, it was all about the power. So, the best tactic was to be “loose,” specifically do NOT cover the hair… then the muttawa can tell you to cover it, you do, and move on. But if you started out with your hair covered, then they would take it to the “next level”, and complain about your toe-nail polish or lipstick… all of which can be even more infuriating since you were trying to do the “right thing” by covering your hair. To a lesser degree, dress standards applied to men. Specifically, could a man wear shorts in public, and if so, how long did they have to be? I never did wear them, it seemed to be something that was “not done.” And then there was the business of the swimming pools in housing compounds. All the rules went out the window on dress. These pools were quite “public”, as often times half the residents could easily look into them. KFSH developed an interesting, and naturally unofficial rule in dealing with them. If Muslims complained about Western dress at the pool, they were asked to leave the housing compound! Yes, rather amazing.
I mentioned the four incidents that occurred with my family and the muttawa above, but I did not mention another incident, which I wrote about in my book. It too was from the mid-90’s, when we were driving north on the Qassim expressway to Hail. At 120 kph a muttawa, or muttawa wantabe pulled next to me, stayed with me for five minutes or so, constantly motioning that my wife should cover her face! He did this to the other two cars with us also. Dangerous? Of course. Fortunately the civil police backed us up – said the guy was “majnoon”, as indeed he was.
I see parallels on the accountability issue between the muttawa and the pedophile scandal in the Catholic Church. My sister still goes to the Church. I asked her why. She said so that her children could be instructed in “moral values.” I asked her if she would leave her children alone with the priest. “Of course not”, was the response. How can your children learn “moral values” from someone you are afraid is a pedophile? The Catholic Church brought much of this upon themselves – most of the hierarchy, particularly the Bishops of Boston and Los Angeles, KNEW of their pedophile priests, but opted not to protect the children, but rather the priests – transferring them from parish to parish, all the while denying there was a problem. No accountability. Now the Church is paying out multi-million dollar settlements in lawsuits.
Likewise, concerning the incident I related above in Shaqra, I was told, unofficially by Saudi friends, that there had been other problems with this muttawa, and he had been transferred to Shaqra as a “solution” to the previous problem. So, like the pedophile priests, this muttawa continued his aberrant, and immoral behavior. My official complaint, like those who complained about pedophile priests, was simply ignored by the hierarchy. No accountability. I read in the Arab News that some Saudis are taking the muttawa to court over illegal actions. It is a start. Will there ever be multi-million dollar (riyal) settlements?
- John Paul Jones
John-Paul, I enjoyed your comment and the analogies very much. I think shorts for men are becoming more acceptable even in conservative Riyadh. They do remain at knee level but even in my all Saudi compound Saudi men go around in their shorts and t-shorts as well as men from many nationalities are seen on the streets and at coffee shops wearing shorts. It could be because this has been a searing summer and still no rain or simply could be a tiny hint that Riyadh is opening up, softening up….
Poor little misunderstood muttawa. Just out there trying to do gods work when WHAM..the flash of a bared achilles tendon tosses them into such devil induced lust that their only recourse is to whip out a stick and beat… someone.
Really, if you think about it, a well turned ankle in victorian times was highly enticing and weren’t women throughout Europe at some point or another before 120 yrs ago (when the virus of humanity mutated, apparently) kept in some sort of protective purdah or considered free game for the lustful masses? Chivalry is great until you’re out alone for a splash in the river and some fellow rides by on his steed, and from reading the posts that’s what KSA sounds like.. protected women until they’re unguarded.
Ahh, thank heaven for Barbara Cartland or I’d have no imagination….
Enjoyed your comment Andrea. And I enjoy reading Barbara Cartland too!
I returned from my new tutoring job today to come face to face with a neighbor mutawa who was passing us. My hair was covered, but I had to cover my mouth so that he couldn’t see me smiling while thinking about this post and all the things that have been said here.
They do get a bad rap. I think that perhaps they need to promote the good things that they do more to help to offset so many of the bad ones that have been reported.
My friend in the states asked me to pick up a few books here for her book club. One is called The ‘Mistress of Spice.’ I don’t know….although it sounds like it’s about food…it seems that SOME people who see me buying 15 copies of this book might get the wrong idea of what kind of book club we belong to. : ) And for those of you who are interested….we really do just discuss books….there are quite a few of them now.
A2S – I can assure you that the Mistress of Spice is indeed about spices… but it also has a surprise love story at the end so watch out…. although this book is also sold in Jarir (guess we better not let the muttawa find out…)
Last night’s Ramadan comedy (one that replaced Tash ma Tash) had a funny muttawa scene. Two brothers who had not seen each other recently because of living in different locations met in Riyadh when the older brother got transferred there. Because the older brother did not know how to navigate around Riyadh they meet just outside of the town area and near a mosque (by chance). As they are warmly greeting one another, hugging and kissing after a long absence neither notices the call to prayer. Within mere seconds two muttawa and police come to pick them up for not being in the mosque praying…not a question to them is asked.
I saw that as well and thought it might be good for the mutawa to practice their techniques of arrest on each other so that they can see how it feels to be on the other side. I mean, wouldn’t it have been better for the mutawa to say to them, “Excuse me, but prayers are about to begin. You both need to be in the mosque.”
Respect would have been shown and probably given on both sides….not to mention earning the respect of other people viewing their methods.
There is a new Manners school here in Jeddah. Maybe someone can suggest for them to attend classes to make them more likeable. Or, perhaps they don’t care if we like them, and they want that ‘fear tactic’ to remain.
I believe that overall they really do want the fear tatic to remain.
Yeah; in regards to the sitcom last night, what welcome to Riyadh for the elder brother!
I remember reading a hadith..not sure of its isnad…but it said something like…the prophet said “if i were given permission to burn the houses of those Muslims that didnt go to the mosque to pray…I would (paraphrasing)…which would seem to prove the point that even prayers cannot be forced upon the people…even if its the ardent desire of the prophet himself…force cannot be used. Im wondering if the muttawa bother to read the Quran and hadith that they so ardently defend…hmmm?
Red, I want to make sure I’m reading your comment right… I realize you are paraphrasing and you saying that if the prophet could burn the houses of Muslims who did not go to the mosques to pray, he would choose to do so?
yes…i remember reading that hadith some years back….like i said…i cant verify whether it was sound or not…just remember reading it…maybe someone else can tell us whether its considered weak or strong…..anyone?
I personally dont give much credence to that hadith…as it sounds extremely violent and nothing like the peaceful attitude of the prophet…but then again…im no scholar so cant judge them…so ive been told a million times
thanks for responding.
Carol, I think the point of that hadith was that the Prophet did not have permission/authority to burn the house of a non-practicer, even though he, personally, might have wanted to do so. It’s a reprisal of that ‘no compulsion’ thing.
Thanks for your clarification John!