In speaking with some (female) university professors who teach at Riyadh universities, they shared some views on a phenomenon surfacing at universities in the city. There seems to be a trend with more and more of the female Saudi students in the desire to appear “butch.” Specifically the university students are cutting their hair short like a man and using generous amounts of hair gel so the hair is spiked up. Having this style where long hair is dominate and cherished makes them stand out, they also are choosing to wear man cut jeans and trousers hanging low and baggy from the hips coupled with a man’s shirt. Lastly, the ensemble is completed with men’s sandals or sneakers. In a society where flaunting ones femininity and beauty is a national past time among young women, the choices of the “butch” girls is indeed an anomaly. So the question asked when observing these girls are they gay or is this just a fad they are going through? Or perhaps this is a phase of rebellion? Is this yet another side-effect from the conservative culture which continues to mandate segregation among its sexes?
Filed under: culture, gender, relationships, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, Saudi education, travel, Uncategorized
Sounds like a bit of rebellion.
Good for them!
I also believe it is a show of rebellion but it is not unusual when people see these young ladies in malls to make remarks that they are gay.
Inevitable I should say, when every woman is supposed to have long hair and be as girly as possible, but they would know that very well wouldn’t they?
Looks defenitely like a bit of punk-style defiance to me.
And what is the muttawa going to do about it? Forcibly let their hair grow?
The muttawa’s reaction to seeing such girls is a good question Aafke! I’m not sure!
I can’t blame these groups of young women for their defiance. I think it is only natural that people want to be seen as individuals and not feel compelled to comply to restrictive cultural traditions all the time.
Are these women going so far as to appear in public uncovered, pretending to be men? What do their families think of their appearance? How do they expect to find husbands, looking like males? I’d love to see one of these “butch” girls.
They will appear with their head uncovered but do wear the abaya when out in public.
My understanding from discussions with teachers is that parents are not pleased with the appearance of their daughters but at the same time do not seem to enforce that they comply with tradition.
I doubt that finding a husband is of importance to them at this time!
I guess as long as they aren’t thrown in jail for looking different (like they have threatened to do in Dubai)… it shouldn’t seriously matter. Every society has its tomboys.
You know Ryan, that’s a good generalization I think by referring to them as tomboys.
“I doubt that finding a husband is of importance to them at this time!”
Of course! In fact, I now wonder if their propensity toward appearing “butch” is more than a youthful rebellion. Maybe they are actively resisting marriage so that they can establish themselves professionally without being compromised by family responsibilities.
Any chance you can catch one of them for an interview?
snort! *Any chance you can catch one of them for an interview?*
LOL!!! I just got this wonderful image in my head of Bedu running around campus with a huge net trying to catch one, pin her down, and giving her the cross-questioning, with her notebook in one hand, and the neck of her caught quarry in the other!
My husbands neices told me about these kinds of girls. Dressed exactly like carol explained plus some have tattoos and they always have these large entourages of really beautiful girls, they swore these tomboys looked just like boys even talk like them. I think that some of these girls just do it to be diffrent but also there is the fact that some are lesbians….
Given the school year has pretty much ended I doubt that could be worked out but never say never…
I like your image Aafke…I can just see a “butch” butterfly sauntering around with me and my abaya chasing with the net! (LOL)
Habeeba, let me know if your husband’s nieces know any of them that would allow me to ask them a few questions… we want to keep Aafke happy (big bad grin)
Seriously, it would be interesting to hear their perspective on their choice of appearance being within a society known for conformity.
Yes; you are correct Habeeba that some of the women/girls are indeed lesbians but I know that would be found anywhere. What we do not know and likely difficult to know is whether there is a higher percentage of lesbians in the Kingdom or not.
That’s rather odd — it sounds like a form of differentiation. Of standing out — but if no one’s reacting, then I wonder what’s the point?
I like the new banner, Carol. This is very interesting. In other countries I would say it was just rebellion-going against the grain. That said, long hair is treasured in the Gulf. Do these girls “act” butch?
Is there anything in the Koran that says they cannot look this way? Perhaps they’ve found a legal loophole that lets them avoid wearing all of that unnecessary garb.
If they look like a man, then a man should be able to control himself, right?
Well, men should not look like women, an women should not look like men.
That said, I’ve read somewhere that men in KSA now have quite long hair, so if the women cut the hair very short and men start to let their’s grow…..
nice post………. u cant forget the fact that if word gets around in the community then the parents might feel embarassed since saudi society literally thrives on conformity… especially ive heard that in riyadh people still have strong connections to their tribes….theres even the possibility the sheikhs or leaders of their tribe might ask the parents to stop their girls from being butch… Its just sad that conformity is given such priority in such a society even if it against islam; like education was declared haraam or something for women until the great king Faisal established it
Hrm, sounds like typical rebellion against a more conservative culture. When females are forced to look feminine I think there will be some out there that hate it and want to be “different”.
One thing I am sure that is unique to Saudi Arabia is that segragation will bring out all sorts of problems. I read “Girls of Riyadh” (good book I liked it especially since it caused so much controversy) and I remember one of the characters dressing up as a boy to drive the others to the mall. I have heard of homosexual tendencies in men who are forced to only be amongst men and the lesbianism for woman forced to be amongst only women. These are some of the problems segragation of the sexes I’ve heard of all the way over here in the States. It amazes me how underground this stuff was. It sounds like a few rebellious but brave in my eyes woman are daring to change the status quo per se.
Aafke highlighted a very interesting point…yes, long hair (shoulder length and below) is very much the style of the young men in the Kingdom. So it should not necessarily be all that surprising to see the young women going in the opposite direction.
Samir also raises good points about the traditions, conformity and saving face among tribes which may ultimately impact on the actions of the “butch girls.”
Girls of Riyadh is an interesting read and still considered somewhat controversial in the Kingdom just because the author does dare to speak out on some of what can happen in the conservative Kingdom. The fact that the book talks of the actions of some Saudi girls and written by a Saudi has added to the controversy.
Lastly, glad you all are enjoying the new look of the blog!
The prevalent assumption is that they are gay.
Nothing new here. I remember these types of girls from my Saudi school years in the 1980′s.
In my opinion….in this society where boys “get everything”…dressing like a boy is a not so subtle way of telling people …if this is what it takes to be taken serious as a human being…to dress like a boy so as to appear to be as a boy…then this is what I’ll do. In other words…if I look like a boy to you…will you treat me differently…better…with more respect or dignity etc…because when I dress as a girl…Im invisible…..just my opinion on that
then again…some of them are lesbian for sure.
I’m not any type of authority on this topic but my first thought was that they were doing this as a way to empower themselves. By dressing like men, maybe they feel they are equal with men, in a society where perhaps women are treated unequally.
My second thought is that they are not interested in being married off because they fear a controlling husband. Dressing “butch” is sure to scare them off, (at least the really traditional ones who would be more likely to be controlling.)
I wonder if you can make the comparison between women who become overweight and stay that way on purpose to deflect sexual attention. It feels “safer” to be unwanted in this way… It is also a good way to find out if a man truly loves the woman for what is inside and not marrying her as some type of trophy.
Very interesting for sure!… I hope you get a chance to ask some of these women about it.
I’m very much enjoying everyones comments and thoughts. Playing as an armchair psychologist, it does make sense to think they are rebelling, seeking empowerment, bucking the institution and conventions. In a male-dominated environment it does make sense for some women to believe if they appear more masculine then perhaps they will have more power and/or respect. I do wish I’d be able to speak with one of the young women but do not see that happening anytime soon.
Welcome Tee. I never thought about some women choosing to become overweight to deflect sexual attention. I don’t want to sound like I am pointing fingers here, but it seems that “amply endowed” women do seem to be predominant here in KSA. But at the same time, these women who in other cultures may be called overweight do not seem to be ashamed or their bodies or self-conscious. The women I have seen will dress in all manner of styles and fashions whether flattering to the body or not. But again, I had always figured that body size did not matter as much to Saudi men due to the high number of women who would fall into the category of being overweight. Hmmm, something to think about.
When it comes to fads, Saudi kids usually follow Western or Lebanese ones (the later are usually an adoption of the Western ones also). As far as I know there is no western mainstream butch fad. So I am leaning towards either this is some sort of a gang look or the girls are lesbian. My niece who goes to college in Makkah indicated that girls’ universities do have violence issues. These girls may have developed this look as a show of strength of the group.
That’s the first I had heard of girls’ universities having violence issues. Do you know in what way there is violence? That is concerning.
I’ve seen many of them in Kuwait as well, and many of them are gay.
The men are looking more ‘fem’ too lately.
I don’t know why it has to be blamed on the lack of rights for women. If that were true, why do we have many in the U.S. as well?
I think now that the world is becoming more open, they are coming out. The Middle East has just had them hidden for so long.
I will not dispute that some may be gay but I do think a lot has to do with rebellion…but of course we can only speculate until a chance comes forward to hear them speak out on why they are presenting themselves as they are!
Carol,
From what I heard at least in the Makkah there are bullying type of incidents to extort money, get items or even sexual favors. The problem is girls get stuck in school between classes also, as they just cannot drive home for an hour or 2. My niece says she and her friends stick around common areas and make sure they escort each other if they are moving about the university.
Viking Daughter,
When I write long names I sometimes use initials. You make that impossible to do with the nick you chose
Regarding your comment about homosexuality not being impacted by segregation. I think that is a true statement. However, I think people that live in segregated societies may have homosexual experimentation at a bigger percentage. That does not make them life long homosexuals.
Saudi in US – I have a number of family members with university age girls attending uni in Makkah. What you say is disconcerting and sad. I wonder if the school is attempting any action to break up these kind of gangs?
Regarding homosexual experimentation my theory is that the segregation will help encourage experimentation. Some might end up preferring their own sex just due to the familiarity and comfort level of being accustomed to segregation.
Interesting.
Back in high-school for me in the states, it was the ‘thing’ for the girls to wear mens boxers.
Maybe they’re just trying to be different, but something tells me otherwise.
Lately it’s the ‘trend’ for boys to have long hair over here. When walking behind them, it’s hard to decipher if they are male or female because some truly do have beautiful hair. I’ve even seen some that appear to have hot rolled / curled their hair.
Times are changing in Oman and it’s quite funny to witness this stuff since it’s all so ‘new’ to the older generation. Sometimes I feel like I’m watching re-runs, but in real life if that makes any sense.
It’s a quandry at times…it seems that the university age girls many times tend to dress too mature for their age or such as now, the extreme in dressing masculine. Can’t there be a middle ground?
I have seen these ‘butch’ looking girls at the mall. Mamlaka at the ladies kingdom section to be specific. I will be the first to admit that the first second I saw them I wrote them off as Lesbians, (and with good reason). I was in one of the cafes, I think its called supermodel cafe or something of the sort with my sister-in-law and we saw these butch looking girls coming in with very very feminine and lovely looking girls. 3 couples I saw in particular were holding each other in ways that truly freaked me out. I won’t go into detail. But I am distrubed till this day about it. Mind you I am from Toronto, and should be used to all this by now… lol
My cousins have also told me this is happening in high numbers at their highschool in shargiya- they have all been pulled out since and now attend private schools. They have told me stories of girls dating, lots of holding and touching… and as someone else suggested, many girls would not dare to be seen alone, for they fear what could happen by one of these butch looking girls.
Allah yster… I just fear for my baby and the coming generation, will I be able to handle any of this?
btw… great topic as always…. and love the new layout!
Adding to the violence issue when the girls where in high school they would tell me about cat fights that happened because someone took “their” girl. One of my husbands neices told me that another gilr approached her and asked if she wanted to be “close friends”, needless to say she said no and always felt threatened by that girl later.
Anyways carol I asked them if they think they could put you in contact with some of these girls and they don’t have any problem with it, but of course it will have to wait until the beginning of the school year.
Well alright I’ll share my butch story for you Bedu.
When I was 14 and just started high school I chopped my hair so short and gelled it up to sticking straight out. It was a style but many girls thought i was a dyke (and called me so). I wore sparkly dark green lipstick(sometimes black) and some boyish clothes. I thought this would get me more friends and be more popular and cool and be accepted by many who had not excepted me before. I was wrong and no one even looked mre at me than normal but on the other hand because so many girls asked or called me a dyke (same meaning as butch) I thought hard about if I WAS gay….alhamdulliah no but still when the attitude starts and that age loves experimentation…… So it was an attitude rebellion and a way to be different and mroe accepted. I think the same goes for the majority of these butch girls. Maybe some of them are gay where-in the style came from but over the years others have copied it as a way to attract more attention and to be more popular and some because of their popularity fall into the trap of the Haraam. Neadless to say I spent the next 10 years growing it all back out very slowly and will never cut it that short again. I prefer femiine now. As to married women who do this my sis in law has hacked back her hair to the short but in a stylish way and she’s married and has a son but she does it for fashion and comfort not for “show” (she wears hijab). After she did it I thought about it but the grewling process of growing for my pathertic hair is not worth the cute style.
What an interesting post Bedu…. three cheers for you on it and I hope you catch a really punked out butch girl to interogate uhhh i mean interview…
My SIL is a university professor in Jeddah. Some time ago she remarked to my wife and I that this is common in Jeddah, and many of the girls are indeed lesbian.
I dont know that much about American gay culture, but she commented that like American gay culture, these girls will often wear certain pieces of clothing, or wear them in a certain way, that marks them out as homosexuals to each other. It makes it easier to pick up others in this way.
Amoungst some men, men on men sexual activity is usually not seen as “homosexual” rather something you do because you do not have any other choice until you get married.
This is so common in the Saudi military that my FIL, member of the Saudi military and diplomat for the Saudi government for the military medical medical section, told my wife to never let her son join the Saudi military.
It is a promise that she kept. Recently when we sent him back to Saudi I suggested the military, as is common here in the USA when kids have troubles. She rejected it, as did his family back in Saudi for the same reasons. They were worried as he was so young he’d probably have been raped.
When you enforce an unnatural practice on people, as complete gender segregation is, you get bad things that happen. The above is a good example, as is homosexuality/child molestation amoungst priests.
Hi AB! Like the new look : )
Ok, speculate all you want. People dress in different manners for various reasons. In a conservative society where most gravitate toward conformity for fear of standing out, it’s only natural to have some with opposing views.
I remember myself in high school, not in Saudi but the Emirates back in the early 90s dressing more boyish just because I disliked the way the girls in my class acted.
Me: ‘Let’s play some basketball’
Girl: ‘Ooh no, I’ll break a nail!’
Playing with the guys was always more fun, and to feel accepted and fit in more, me and my girlfriends adopted more masculine styles of attire and overall look.
Growing up that way also led me to examine many female practices, such as wearing makeup, something I occasionally do but never truly understand. If a man can look good without artificiality, so can I : )
Also, in this male dominated world of ours females (in all societies) have a tougher time being successful in their endeavors as they’re constantly being judged by their appearance and sex appeal rather than by their efforts. Where was it that I read, ‘When a man stands up to speak everyone listens. When a woman stands up to speak, if people like what they see then they listen. Wha? : O
Yea. So, as everyone else mentioned, these girls are either rebelling against a society with major double-standard issues or they’re less feminine or homosexual or just about anything their state of mind dictates.
Let’s let them be as long as they’re not harming themselves or people around them!
All the best,
T Dee : )
Abu Sinan, it still doesn’t make sense to me somehow. In the West where there is integration and no repression, we have so many gays!
How do you account for the numbers?
I think some people are born gay. In the Saudi situation some use the repression and segregation as an excuse for what they would otherwise be doing in the open in the West.
I do, however, think that the extreme situations lead to extreme actions by some who would otherwise not be homosexual.
It goes both ways (parden the pun) but until the country and society opens up more there is little possibility of doing some studies on the issue.
teedimensionist,
Welcome back. Sorry your comments keep going to the approval queue. The software captures new commentators for approval. If you keep the same name when commenting, it will get through next time without an approval requirement.
I agree that the younger women should be left alone if the case is just self expression. It is just when behavior does not conform to standards, it leaves people wondering for reasons and perhaps unjustifiably so. I hope Carol gets a chance to talk to one of these girls and allow her the opportunity to express her views.
Blog Moderator
Thanks for the welcome.
When I mentioned “amply endowed” (I like that phrase being that I’m “amply endowed” myself, LOL), women being so to avoid sexual attention, I hadn’t known that there was a noticeable population in Saudi Arabia. That’s very interesting.
I had just read about this psychology in general, and not in reference to any particular nation or culture.
So, Saudi men are not obsessed with a woman’s figure as American men are? I have heard this about men from a few different cultures. I, as a Caucasian American, married a Hispanic man. In his culture, it is more acceptable for women to be “normal” sized and have some meat on their bones. Most white American men have ridiculous expectations and so I never bothered with them!
Anyway, nice to “meet” you. I look forward to reading your blog and learning more about Saudi Arabia from an American’s perspective. I know marrying into another culture has it’s challenges but it is also wonderfully fun and exciting. Life is harder with language and cultural misunderstandings, but I wouldn’t trade it.
Best wishes!
Abu Sinan said:
“I do, however, think that the extreme situations lead to extreme actions by some who would otherwise not be homosexual.”
I think this is very true. Just take a look at any prison system round the world for evidence of this. Many inmates participate in homosexual activity while in prison, but upon leave resume their sexual orientation.
A belated weighing in on gays:
Reliable international statistics come in at ~3% gay, 3% lesbian, 3% bisexual of the total population around the world. Numbers are higher where homosexuals choose to congregate (eg San Francisco, Vancouver, Toronto). Homosexuality is increased by segregation (military, prison) in the sense that, where there is no opportunity for heterosexual sex, some will engage in homosexual relations until they are able to have heterosexual partners.
Traditional cultures including Arab, Muslim, Greek, Turk etc. tend to consider a man a homosexual if he allows himself to be penetrated, and are less likely to label the penetrator as homosexual (based on the dubious assumption that the same person never alternates roles). The major religions are more concerned with the sexual act than the identity.
Latest scientific (as opposed to activist)theory: all gays are born that way and culture largely determines how they express it–in/out of the closet including whether partially or fully, lifelong latency (self-denial), or bisexual behaviours.
Latest activist theory: everyone is gay/bisexual and they just don’t accept it.
Pedophilia is at a maximum of 2-3% of all priests, and is independent of pederasty (homosexuality). Unfortunately, since pedophiles usually have numerous victims before being caught, and usually relapse, the number of victims (boys and girls) is high. This was aggravated by the former practice of moving the offending priest (like the offending school teacher) from city to city (parish to parish).
While my best guess is that some “butch appearing” women are lesbians, others are adopting a style temporarily for a variety of reasons, rebellion, increased freedom, fashion, ease of movement. Also one can be suspected of lesbianism for: having short hair, wearing no makeup, not using hair dye to cover the grey, wearing non-frilly clothes, engaging in sports, not having children, not being married, wearing pants, not backing down in an argument with a man, being too intelligent, too educated etc. In other words, whatever society decides is abnormal femininity.
Chiara
heterosexual female who has worn her hair from waist length to 1-inch–done in one haircut–and worn no make-up to a modest amount, dresses identifiably female;
and, who will now resume reviewing American Bedu’s blog under the keyword “segragation” before foolishly suggesting she do a post on the same
Chiara – I so enjoy your comments and glad to have you here at the blog. I appreciate that you took the time to add statistics which provide further insight to the topic and subsequent discussions of this post.
And I can promise if you are doing a key-word search on segregation, you’ll find plenty more posts to comment upon!
It’s a same thing when a girl appears butch and the only way of thinking is she is gay! In a place like Saudi where the sexes don’t mix, how in the world would they know who is gay and who is not?
For the record, not every female is interested in beauty and being a lady…
I am what one would call butch and I’m married….to a man..
Welcome and thanks for commenting Bernie.
Some of the gay/lesbians I know have been through abuse (sexual, physical, etc) as a child. This may have something to do with their way of thinking. Like Tee said earlier, some people behave in such a way to purposely “deflect sexual attention” like being overweight.
And do the Saudi men not go for the typical “trophy wife”? To me it seems like a culture of appearances. And I am sure they are exposed to some American media, what women “should” look like. I know my Saudi likes what he sees, but he could be unusual for all I know. But in my mind, men are men, no matter the location, they come with testosterone.
I do realize that the perception of beauty is affected by culture, but there can be a few maverics in every population. This is interesting to think about.