There have been many discussions and writings about Saudi men and their actions when they are outside of the Kingdom. However I was recently asked if I could common upon what kind of changes in any take place with Saudi women when outside of the Kingdom. Although this post would be best written by a Saudi woman, I’m happy to share some observations and comments.
Part of what a Saudi woman may or may not be able to do when outside of the Kingdom will not only depend on where she is but upon her mahrem as well. Remember, a Saudi woman usually does not travel or stay for any period outside of the Kingdom without the mahrem or male guardian.
In regards to my own observations, I’ve been fortunate to know Saudi women in most places I have traveled to or lived. I have noticed that the Saudi woman in the States is perhaps more open than the Saudi woman who has traveled elsewhere in the East. It is not unusual for many of the Saudi women in the States to learn how to drive, obtain a drivers license and enjoy this newfound privilege! Many of them also take advantage of the other freedoms such as going out and about freely such as to the theatres, museums and other presentations in spite of their being mixed. The majority of Saudi women I know in the States have dropped the abaya but usually choose to retain the hijjab. However on return to the Kingdom they will resume both the abbaya and hijjab with niqab.
Many of the women enjoy the openness and freedom they experience when out with their husband and children. In fact, some of the Saudi women I’ve known in the States told me that they have felt closer to their husband while in the States and that they experienced more activities and closeness as a couple whereas in the Kingdom the culture and traditions seemed to pull them apart instead of together. They also remarked that they enjoyed the opportunities for the children in that there were a variety of activities associated with school. The boys (and girls) had the opportunity to be on soccer teams, little league, Boy Scouts, Brownies and Girl Scouts.
Naturally they also continued to enjoy some of the same pastimes as in the Kingdom such as exploring and shopping at the various shopping malls and stores in the States. Although many in the States may not have a housemaid like in the Kingdom, their homes are usually spotless and their hospitality the most welcoming. The Saudi homes I have been in while in the States continued to have typical Saudi style design, furnishings and artwork. And in my experience, the Saudi women continued to serve traditional Saudi dishes, kawa and sweets.
Filed under: America, culture, gender, islam, relationships, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, Saudi education, travel, Uncategorized, women driving
Hi Carol,
Women in KSA can travel without the mahram.
A group of women want to travel alone, will each woman have a male guardian? Of course no. Usually there is a paper (it’s yellow I guess) the maram issues it for his wife, daughter etc. With this paper a woman can travel as long as the paper is valid (didn’t expire) My dad issued one to my mother many years back,, and till this Christmas she was using it. She has an open one, that doesn’t expire. Many of my aunts and my cousins have the same paper. Before they used to issue it each year, but we found out that we can get the paper (with no expiration date). Anyway, whether it’s with a paper or not, I don’t think a husband will travel without telling his wife, and a wife will not travel without telling her husband.(in my humble understanding, I consider this to be taking permission from the other one) I guess this is the way it should work.
Yeah, also in KSA males are not allowed to travel without this paper when they are under 21. They should get the male guardian permission. It was funny last year when my mother, sister and my young brother were traveling. My brother who is 18 years old wasn’t allowed to get his boarding pass, and mum/sis got it. They said no way, we aren’t gonna leave the country without him. They were lucky that they arrived early to the airport. They called dad, and he came to the airport, signed a paper, and then my bro was allowed to travel….
I know some people might find the idea overall is strange to get permission from someone to travel , but I assure everyone non of the girls (and they are many) in my family, and in the friends of my mother/sis are not aware of it and aren’t annoyed from it. I personally, never heard someone complaining about it.
However, I should note, I’m not against the idea of mahram in Islam. The permission thing is just the Saudi version of having a mahram. In my opinion, this paper is not what meant of traveling with mahram in Islam.
“Saudi woman in the States is perhaps more open than the Saudi woman who has traveled elsewhere in the East.”
… ‘open’ / ‘open-minded is a vague term. Everyone has his own definition of open-mindedness. What X might consider to be open-minded, Y might not. There is no an accurate definition for whom we can call an open-minded person. According to my definition I’m an open minded person 
, but perhaps not for X , Y & Z 
Why in the States ! and not Canada, England, Australia etc?
“and closeness as a couple whereas in the Kingdom the culture and traditions seemed to pull them apart instead of together.”
That shouldn’t happen in my opinion with a smart couple. However, it’s kind of natural thing whether it’s to Saudi, Egypt, UAE, Morocco, Syria Italy etc. Any couple when they are abroad just for studying, most likely they’ll have no family. They are in a place, where she, knows him only , and he knows her only. SO most of their time , they are together. Of course, they’ll have friends, but that will not have an effect. Then wherever there destination is. As long as they have families and friends, they will not be together as when they were living by themselves. Again, going back home shouldn’t affect a loving couple I believe.
However, if the wife wasn’t Saudi, and the couple are going to KSA after living abroad, I believe, it’s the husband responsibility to make the transition smooth by not engaging a lot at the beginning with his family and friends while leaving his wife alone. Most likely during the first months or even year , the husband will be functioning as the family of his wife. (husband, mother, father, aunt , uncle, cousin , brother, sister ….) Wooow that’s a lot
(kidding) Such thing I believe, should happen just naturally and without thinking of it…
Finally, I don’t consider not putting on the abaya to be kind of a change. As long as the woman is wearing the hijjab, it’s the same. With niqab or with not, it’s a choice. If she didn’t put the hijjab abroad , and put it in KSA , then this I consider (double stander) and a change too
See you all after about 2 weeks from now:) (I just wanted to create trouble before I leave
Khalid,
I am so glad you responded and readers can get the perspectives and understanding from a Saudi male. I’m happy to write about such topics but must admit sometimes feel uncomfortable or inadequate since I’m not Saudi and do not want to innocently mislead or misinform!
I should have noted more about the mahrem and permission and glad that you did so. The news about young men under 18 years requiring permission was news to me! Especially when one will hear stories about a 10 year old boy being a mahrem as he’s the only available male sometimes…
A fair percentage of Saudi couples whom I know and have been abroad for awhile all cited about the closeness they found in each other as a couple when outside and how they missed that. You’re right; it came about due to not having other family members plus more options of things which could be done together as compared to life in the Kingdom. But on return to the Kingdom most get caught up again in the traditional extended family committments and segregation and find that they will miss the closeness of the two of them as when outside.
Mea Culpa to me for blandly making a generic reference to “Saudi women in the States and openness…” You’re right – it does not matter whether US, Canada, or Australia and I should have stated the “West” rather than only the US.
I agree that open-mindness is a vague term and certainly gives us all something to discuss and debate about!
Ahhhh, you’re not going to leave all of us without your wise and witty comments for two weeks? Surely you can find a minute or two each day to pop in?
Khalid, i really enjoyed your comment, thanks very much for sharing this with us. What trouble? Sorry you’ll be gone for so long!
Bedu: Só typical of Americans, supposing that the whole world is really just America.
Tsssss
Aafke — Pshffttt!
I can assure you that there are many Saudi women out there that do not like the fact that the must ask permission to travel from their brothers, uncles, husbands, in some cases their own sons who act as mehram.
The system might not be so bad for women with male members of the family who are permissive, but when your mehram is strict, it is another story.
My step son has been in Jeddah since November. He just turned 18 and his 30 something aunts, all university educated, love him to death, if for nothing else than the fact that their father allows him to act as mehram. In their case he will not allow them to travel anywhere without a male member of the family, making their lives pretty bad.
So there you have it, university educated, working women in their 30′s are required to rely on a boy, not yet through puberty really, so they can go out and do some most basic things like shop.
I find the whole thing to be a bit of a sham. If having a male with you is so important, why is it so easy to wave the requirement? I know people will tell you it is done to protect the females, but I don’t buy it. Like many things I think it is done to protect the image of the family and not much more. Besides which, if all men were so worried about protecting women there would scarcely be a reason for the practice in the first place.
Many Saudi women not only remove the abbaya during their visits to the west, they remove the hijab as well. The requirement to cover in Saudi encourages a woman to a double standard. Many Saudi women would not cover if they had a choice, but they are required to, forcing them into the double standard.
Most of this goes against the idea of “niyyah” in that the intention behind doing something counts almost as much as the act itself. If you would not wear the hijab if given a choice, then the intention is not there and the full reward for wearing it is gone.
God gave us freedom of choice and we are properly judged by him based on our intentions. Forcing someone, male or female, to do something distorts this idea.
Carol,
You are right about the fact that Saudis abroad are just as clean and just as welcoming as they would have been back home.
One of the main things I love about Saudi culture, Arabic culture in general, is the incredible generosity shown.
I agree with Khalid’s ideas. One thing i like to add is that any human being is more open whenevr he/she is out of his/her home. Just because of the fact that your parents keep an eye on you. Those who care for you just want that you dont do any thing harmful to yourself . This is true irrespective of your age and marrital status.
Even when you are out of your work place , you are both open and open minded…… so on and so forth. Similarly, when the europeans are out in Mid East countries they are more open minded and open than they are in their own country…..
So I believe , openness is but natural. however, going by the idea of Khalid, this openness must remain within the bounds of your legal, religious bounds
Tango1, thanks for your comments and welcome to the blog!
Abu Sinan, Interesting views, although I think you may find a number of Saudi women will disagree with you in regards to a choice on whether to wear a hijjab or not. Most Saudi women whom I know consider the hijjab an integral part of their persona and would never think of going out publicly without one.
If someone is doing something merely to ‘fit in’ or to impress others, something that is a religious obligation (such as hijab)- shaytan comes to them and tells them not to do it. Such a person is supposed to sort out their niyyah and then do whatever is obligatory. It is shaytan that makes them abandon the wajib and beautifies this deed for them.
Some of the salaf mentioned something along the lines of: a person is sinful who performs good deeds to impress others; and (a person is arrogant who)abandons good deeds because of others.
One of the salaf said: he felt shaytan come to him (during the salah) and say- o you, the people are watching you take a long time and enjoy your salah! This is showing off! You should abandon it! So he deliberately lengthened his prayer.
This is the case for good deeds that cannot be concealed, such as salah (which is best performed in jama’ah) and hijab- which people obviously see. One must rectify one’s niyyah, but that doesn’t mean one should abandon what is obligatory- that is an extremely harmful understanding of the issue. A person with this understanding would not hesitate to sin, and would make his sins evident to all. A person who publicises his sins is less deserving of forgiveness than one who conceals them. Everyone should cover up his own faults and ask for forgiveness and insha Allah, no-one will ever find out about them, and he will be forgiven for them. When it comes to certain sins, such as those which are punished by the rulers, we notice that those who repent most truly confess them and offer themselves up for punishment, such as the female zaniyya in the time of the Prophet (sal Allahu `alayhi wa sallam). But this is NOT necessary or encouraged.
Abu Sinan, you praise Americans for being candid and unabashed when it comes to certain vices. You love ‘openness’ and I think, yes, there is something compelling about it, especially for those of us who were raised here (i.e. the ‘West’). But those who broadcast their sins are not forgiven, and whenever vice becomes apparent in a people then they have merited the punishment of Allah.
W’Allahi there isn’t a single society except that it has problems with it. In KSA, there are prostitutes who wear niqab, and so vice adopts the mask of virtue. At least they have the shame to cover up, conceal themselves etc. What is greater than that is shirk- the unforgivable sin- and since societies over here are absolutely ridden with it, I don’t see how any believing Muslim can see more good over here than in the ummah. We should try to judge- if we judge at all- with the mizan of Allah. Human eyes would have seen little or no good in an ugly black slave, but in the sight of Allah he might surpass all others in rank.
One of the salaf said: the best of people is the righteous one who’s inner life corresponds exactly to what the people see of him, outwardly. For everyone who is less than that, Allah cover up our sins, ameen.
I understand that many people feel ‘restricted’ in KSA. Many of their concerns are legitimate, but not all. I can sympathise with women who want to drive, but not those who want to establish a western style liberal democracy a la the US of A.
Why do they feel restricted? Because they can see alternatives, or, more precisely, they can see AN alternative- ‘al-gharb’. As someone who has been raised here- I’m so surprised by the arab view. A lot of people are overwhelmed by things; they think all is unmitigated good. Needless to say, almost every time they consider things in purely worldly terms.
I’ve yet to decide whether the ignorance and parochialism of some people is a blessing or a curse- to them, that is.
Burke (and as a pedant I can legitimately assume that you all know who I speak of LOL) famously defended ‘prejudice’ over rationality. Most (virtuous) people, he claimed, are good, simply becuase they are used to it, and perhaps because they know nothing else. ‘Reason’, in contrast, so barely persuades those who knew better to act virtuously that it simply isn’t worth taking seriously, in comparison.
That is why I’m stuck in a rut when it comes to KSA. Their cultural conservatism is surely a good thing, even though it has its victims. On the other hand, this leaves many dangerously unprepared for (what I’ll somewhat cryptically refer to as) ‘the world’, which in turn has its own consequences. I don’t know which side to come down on. Certainly, the majority of a people can’t be relied upon to choose what is right for themselves- hence Voltaire’s preferred method of government LOL. But who can? Hmmm…
My one consolation is that I can have no effect whatsoever on the outcome, and so can’t be blamed for whatever happens
Carol, it’s happening again…I like the sound of my own voice, so to speak…sorry for interrupting again.
WM,
Sure, those who broadcast their sins are not forgiven, neither are those who lie about them and seek cover under the camoflage of piousness. Far from it, those who rail against others whilst secretly commiting the same sins themselves are guilty of the sin of hypocrisy. Which is better? Being open about it or the hypocrisy involved in condemning it whilst doing it yourself? I guess that is up for debate.
Every society has issues, sure. I am an American, I know this better than anyone. This blog and post, however, is about Saudis, so that is why we are talking about Saudi Arabia and not the USA. When you bring up another country to make a point that is common sense (ie all societies have issues) it looks like you are trying to divert attention.
As to whether or not the West has more or less good than “the ummah” I would have to debate that. In most countries in the West torture is not a daily affair, in many if not most countries in “the ummah” torture is a daily affair committed by the same people held up to be the leaders of the state. People are imprisoned for voicing dissent, rich oligarchies run riot with billions whilst their own people starve and dont have access to basic health care. Say what you will about the West but you can be pretty sure in most of the countries here you have a right to freedom of speech, you wont be tortured or murdered by the state, you will find it hard to starve to death and you’ll probably have access to free healthcare.
If, for you, the good in “the ummah” means nothing more than hearing the adhan, then I suspect you are right. If it involves basic human rights, then you are most certainly wrong. If you think Islam, as a religion and as a legacy and an example, is nothing more than a stagnant set of rules drawn up by people 1,400 years ago, you are right. If Islam is a vibrant, growing and expanding religion that serves as both a model, example and legacy, you are wrong.
Lets keep in mind that the Prophet was a social reformer, an activist; today he would be considered a human rights radical. None of the countries of the ummah come close to even wanting to live up to this example, let alone trying. However, in their zeal for justice, humanity and human rights, the West is far more in keeping with the tradition of the Prophet than are Muslim countries. Sad but true.
Carol,
You write “Most Saudi women whom I know consider the hijjab an integral part of their persona and would never think of going out publicly without one.”
I am sure this is true for the Saudi women you know. However, here in the West, it is not always the same for Saudi women. It would be hard NOT to be different when Saudi women actually have a choice to wear it or not. Part of the subject of conversation about Saudi women coming to the West that I have been a part of on numerous occassions is how when the plane gets out of Saudi airspace, off come the abbayas and hijabs, and out come the Armani suits, cleavage and the like. I see Saudi women on a regular basis here in Northern Virginia. The mall we shop at sometimes seems to have more of them than Riyadh or Jeddah. It is a Mecca, so to speak, for the large Saudi community here.
Sometimes I hear the harsh Najdi accent, sometimes it is the Hijazi accent, but they are Saudi. Sometimes they are in hijab, sometimes even in niqab, 50% of the time they are not covered at all.
It is interesting that you use the word “persona”. To me this indicates not so much of a feeling of relgious obligation, rather it is something they are used to, a cultural practice that they are bound to.
The hijab is a religion mandate, I have no doubt of that. Just how many Saudi women would still wear it if given the opportunity is another manner. I also have no doubt many Saudi women would continue to wear it in Saudi, if given the choice, but would not wear it in the West because there is not the intense social pressure here to do so. Even if Saudi women are given a choice you wont see a change until the intense social pressure in the country changes.
Aafke, As an American who has traveled extensively internationally, I know what you mean by your “…so typical of Americans…” comment. There is a reason for that attitude, beyond the fact that that America is a large superpower. The country is geographically isolated. Americans do not travel with the ease and frequency of Europeans or Middle Easterns, or even Far Easterners. Additionally, our vacations are disgustingly short; we almost never get four weeks, especially in a row. Add to that the cost of overseas airfare, and you have a recipe for islolation.
Most of us get exposed to other cultures either by media or by contact with immigrants. Those who travel almost always go for two week guided tours, and always come home with stories about the American fast food chains and other American business enterprises well established abroad. None of that goes deeply into fostering a true appreciation of the rest of the world.
Relating all of this back to the subject of the thread, I have observed that Saudi women outside of the Kingdom are in a good position to enter Western society to the degree that they feel comfortable. They usually speak another language well enough to function. Whether they cover or not cover, pray or not pray, etc. seems less relevant than the fact that they can really taste another side of the world.
Considering the fact that Saudi women can get various types of visas to Western countries makes it much easier for them (paradoxically) to move back and forth (apart from the mahram issue). The Saudi’s attitude toward the West is therefore more realistic than the American’s attitude toward the Kingdom and, by extension, other countries and cultures.
Western women, by contrast, can almost never enter the Kingdom, except as a professional employee or the spouse of one.
Abu Sinan, I like your comments re: the mahram issue.Even if the “protection” excuse was valid at one time in history, it is rarely so today.
WM, those who love the sound of their own voices need their own platform from which to broadcast. Don’t you feel cramped without one?
Lying is haram- but there is a huge difference between concealing one’s sins and lying. In fact, Imam an-Nawawi said one should, even if asked about having committed a sin, equivocate, be ambiguous etc, as long as one does not lie.
If a man is a zani, and someone asks him, ‘is zina wrong’, he should answer with a resounding ‘yes’.
It doesn’t take long for me to get tired of people like you, Abu Sinan. There is no point debating with you because, as we have already seen, you affect knowledge of the answers. Your problem is not ignorance, but compound ignorance. Sometimes I wonder about people like you. Does he love the Prophet, sal Allahu `alayhi wa sallam? Of course he does. But love of the Prophet (sal Allahu `alayhi wa sallam) is, for him, the supreme form of egoism. This love isn’t based on some objective account of the Sira; the Prophet, sal Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, is a projection of himself, a la Feuerbach’s ‘Essence of Christianity’. He is everything you want him to be, a cardboard cut-out, the creation of your mind, an instance of what psychoanalysts call ‘projection’. He is not, for you, the Prophet who ordered the death of the warriors of Banu Quraydah. To you he (sal Allahu `alayhi wa sallam) is one who forgave, but never fought. He is Makka and not Madina. You love the former and secretly revile the latter. You are full of contempt for the laws that he brought, the ethics he taught and the teachings that he- `alayhi’s salatu wa’s salam- came with. Of course, you qualify your contempt, since according to you every `alim got it wrong until God sent you into the world with the ‘truth’. I wonder how you’re able to hold this belief without believing yourself a prophet. You are a capricious creature, Abu Sinan, and caprice is your creed. Nothing can be valid or true or beautiful until it corresponds to your whims. Where is the effort to re-form one’s criteria of judgment? Islam is istislam i.e. submission, to Allah, and this is more than simply a passive process. For those of us raised here, this process is especially hard, since we’ve already been given a particular view of things that- in places- doesn’t exactly correspond to the correct opinion on such matters.
Allahumma thabit qulubunna `ala’d deen. Ameen, ameen, ameen.
I agree with Abu Sinan. Many Saudi women will ditch the abya and hijab if given the choice. By the way there are 2 conditions that drive that 1) having a free environment like being in the US and 2) having a family that allows that. What we see in the US is a high percentage of Saudi women go without covering, because both conditions are met. I wonder how many continue to wear hijab, because of #2.
dear Marahm, what I said about Americans was said with a wink, please don’t take me too serious. I’m sure Bedu didn’t. Who is the last person I’d describe as confined to American culture!
WM, I really don’t see why you deleted your blog, I see at least three posts here. I am constraining myself responding to them. I will not!
And I smell the whiff of hijab, it is só dangerous; in a few comments the subject will be completely forgotten and all following comments will be about how, why, where, if, all women should wear hijab.
I deleted it because my conscience pricked me (yes, it is possible). It’s easy to comment on another’s blog (sorry Carol!), and it doesn’t require any commitment.
If she tells me to leave, then I will. But beyond that, I don’t have the self-discipline to leave off doing something I so thoroughly enjoy, viz. verbally flaying Abu Sinan.
Carol,
It comes a time for every blogger to make a decision on whether to censor comments or not. It is a tough decision that you need to make based on what type of forum you want to have and the degree of participation you like from your readers. I know letting free discussion happen is an objective, but you have to consider that freedom also requires a healthy environment to nurture it.
I think WM is degrading every discussion here into a duel of egos and personal attacks. I for one will continue reading your blog, but will have to make a decision on whether I will continue to comment. I am leaning towards saving my time as I do not want to be in a fight with an intellectual thug every time I write. I also do not want to censor my thoughts when I write them, because of concerns about creating a controversy. Censoring ones self is the ultimate in loss of freedom of expression. I found myself in that position a few times since WM showed up. For some of us it is not about winning or losing, it is about educating and sharing ideas. The environment as it stands now looks like a combat zone. WM is on an intellectual Jihad (just look at the number of comments as an indicator).
I know this is putting you in a tough position. I had to think hard about writing this message as I do not want it to sound like an ultimatum. However, I know you have the maturity and intellect to understand the spirit of my comment.
WM,
I love you for the sake of Allah, so I wont respond to your personal attack on me other than to note that those who think they know the Prophet and the deen the best are often those who are so terrible at implementing it in their own personal life! Take a look in the mirror brother before you think to offer anything of naseeha (advice) to anyone else. Continue on with your personal rants if you so choose. You have a habit of engaging in personal attacks, apologising later, only to engage in them again later. Learn a lesson please. Better yet, take a look at the Prophet you claim to know so well and see if he would have engaged in such tactics.
“I don’t have the self-discipline to leave off doing something I so thoroughly enjoy, viz. verbally flaying Abu Sinan.” I think I am safe to say that I think you are about the ONLY person here who thinks I am being flayed. Again………more proof of how you talk of love of the Prophet, yet act in the exact opposite manner.
Saudi in the USA,
Of the Khalijee and women from the Gulf that I know I’d guess that less than 50% cover here. Of those 50%, a good chunk do so because their family demands it and they do it to keep the peace. I remember going out with one lady from a very well known Yemeni (Saudi passport) family in Northern Virginia, and my wife, for dinner after I first moved here. When we sat down she removed her hijab. When I gave her a bit of a look she offered that the only reason she wore it is because her family forced her. This is a woman with a Masters Degree, in her 50′s, divorced with children. To tell you the truth, even when she wore it she didn’t do it right. It was see through and only covered like half of her hair. If not her family she’d not wear it at all. I prefer to see a woman NOT wear it than to wear it wrong or wear it because they are forced into it.
As for banning WM, I am not for it. I believe in freedom of speech, besides which, I think he goes a long way to proving what is so wrong with Islamic fanaticism. He thinks he scores some sort of points here in attacking a convert to Islam, rather he only succeeds in making himself out to be the opposite of what he preaches, an all too common trait of religious radicals. Ignoring such people is often the best tactic. When they cease to get fodder for their comments they often will go back to “flaying” themselves.
Abu Sinan,
Sorry, if I sounded like I am for censorship. I really think this is like having a store and you have a thug planted permanently at the front of your door. This thug could look filthy, loses every fight, etc. He/she does not have the self respect to realize how they look. However, the point is that the thug may prevent you from getting more customers, because they simply just do not want to deal with the thug.
At the end of the day, WM is not censored as the internet is a big place. Like Aafke suggested, WM can create a blog and all challengers that want to engage in a fight will show up there.
I also agree with you about the hypocrisy of the traditions and family control with regards to hijab. I would rather give women the choice. There are many that make that choice without force because they believe fully in their duties.
Saudi,
I understand where you are coming from. Usually if these people are ignored they disappear. I had one guy come to my blog threaten me, the family, all sorts of nonsense. I only deleted the cursing and the veiled threats, everything else I let through.
When it was clear no one bought what they were trying to sell and ignored them they moved to another venue where they could find another crowd to bite the hook.
I actually feel sorry for these types. Something must really be lacking in their lives for them to seek attention online in such a vacuous manner.
I certainly wouldnt want Carol to look at the number of posts………}:>), I am guilty of that myself.
I’ve wondered why WM has been allowed to erupt into verbal vomit from time to time. He is capable of better. However, we are all older, wiser, more patient and more tolerant than he is, and we hope he will learn by example.
In philosophy, there is something called the “moral sphere,” referring to the agreed upon rules of etiquette and behavior. When a person consistently moves out of this sphere, he is subject to censorship.
I think we’d all welcome WM into the sphere.
Aafke, I’m sorry if I sounded like I took your comment too seriously. My fault is that I lean towards over-seriousness. People laugh at me for that, and I laugh at myself!
The discussion that began with Saudi women outside the Kingdom had to focus on covering, of course, because that is the visible symbol of so much more than Islam, or oppression, or deep faith, or compulsion, or any one of the derivative meanings thereof.
Will we ever tire of talking about hijab? No, I fear not. I, myself, am itching to expound on why I do not wear it outside of the Kingdom, but that will certainly entail a separate discussion.
Marahm, don’t worry
I immediately took it serious and was worried I might have shocked people. I’m almost never serious myself, and expect everybody to understand that, but then react with utter seriousness to everybody else. 
WM, you are young and still searching I think. Abu Sinan, and Saudi in US are older, very intelligent and wise men, they are a bit out of your league. For now.
I am sure you will become more composed (and concise) in time. You perhaps take all this too much to heart.
My next post is about Hijab in Holland, you are welcome to visit and comment (keep it short) (and use simple words) I’d be happy to take you on on my own blog.
I’m quite fond of you, but I like Saudi in US & AbuSinan better, and I’ll be quite miffed if they stop commenting here. Try keep your comments short and to the point, up to 5 sentences for example.
Old guys: you should be wise and stop being so irritated.
And I’m going to stop being supercillious now.
Aafke,
OK, I am going to ignore that old men comment
I am really not irritated. My comments were a reflection of logical thinking. I read blogs and comment sometimes as it adds more fun to my life. The commenting part is becoming tedious, because of the negativity. At one point it becomes exhausting and less fun to argue, even if I win. I lost the big ego a long time, so winning is not important.
I also find it hard to have discussions that are carried entirely through a religious focus and ignores the other 99% of human knowledge and discoveries. These discussion become quiet boring.
No matter what happens, I will always read this blog as I enjoy it and it became a part of my daily routine. Us old men are creators of habit you know
Your tongues rot in your mouths, o venerables ones, while your minds fester into nothing. Your time has passed; you are the dead. You are beyond the age of rational thought; you have all formed your opinions- never open to change in the first instance. Your arguments are philosophic cobwebs; see how easily they are swept away! Out of the scum and dross of the old generation a new, vigorous and healthy one is born. You have had your chances: you have failed. I can hear the creak of ancient bones as you march in file towards the grave. It opens its ponderous marble jaws to receive you.
Ibrahim- `alayhi’s salam- was a youth. Ahl al-Kahf- were young men. Don’t think that the ‘virtue’ of age- not a virtue, since passively acquired- will redeem you by default. You are wrong. The testimony of multitudes is against you. Fain would you defeat them; but you are beaten down. Unnumbered voices drown out your own, o ancient ones. Rasp away, if you wish. You should wish that you aren’t resurrected with those you revere, or you will go where Mill, Bentham and their ilk are sure to go. Not that you had ever read anything they had written, of course.
I was an ‘extremist’ before I was born. I was always-already labelled a ‘radical’. But critique has its virtues- you are alien to every single one of them. You were born blind. Your swaddling clothes were tied too tight. Instead of changing you, the years of your lives have done nothing but throw garlands of flowers over the chains that bind you to the slavish imitation you call ‘freedom’. You have no idea what it is. It is just a word, carelessly tossed about, that you heard in your cradles. You do not understand it, and your years have only served to increase you in blindness.
Get you to the grave, and make way for us. You were ever complicit in tyranny, and we shall fearlessly shake the thrones of tyrants! You imbibed misguidance and deviation with your mothers’ milk, apparently. We will return to the sources of guidance!
We will revive, where you let all wilt and decay;
That said, I wait to hear what Carol has to say.
*sigh*
I’m sure you all look very young for your respective ages, masha Allah. You know what I mean.
Out of interest, how old is everyone? Am I really *that* young?
Spotless? Hehe, not my house Carol
But you’re right about the beautiful crayon artistry there are ALL over the walls and carpets. With my toddler’s art work, I can now rest assured that I won’t be getting the apartment deposity back 
From what I hear about mom’s experience in the States, I think my generation is less easy going in regards to hosting parties at home and inviting people in. Maybe falling in the area between “having to give out god food, beautiful impression, clean house” and not having the right technique and knoweldge of all that makes us guest-resistant in a way.
Going out with our guests to parks, cafee’s, or restaurant is much perferred.
Then, again, maybe that’s just me…
I have very much enjoyed the dialogues and discussions as pertains to the topic.
I don’t like censoring but also find it tedious to read through long comments with little being added to the topic of the post. Don’t forget – as the blogger here, I’ve got to ensure my blog does not contain content that would be offensive or sensitize that could risk my blog being closed down…after all, blogs here are not truly “free.”
So what does that mean? I appreciate and am thankful for the lively dialogues, discussions and comments. I do not want to remove comments if possible nor censor who chooses to comment. But in turn, respect for guidelines is expected. If someone really wants to debate off topic, use the page created just for that.
While I’m flexible for some digressing off topic because a comment may lead to other points which merit a discussion, I ask that the comment please be kept towards dialogue and in a healthy and professional manner.
WM – yes; you can be too much at time. I don’t want to add more fuel to the fire but I do agree with those that encouraged you to resume your own blog. There is no doubt in my mind you would have your following and can control the topics discussed.
Oh my God!
. The comments are always fascinating , so I end up weighing and contemplating in what has been said — so it’s never a min when it comes to checking your articles 
. (If I don’t get A, I’ll blame your Blog 
) “Kidding only.
_LOL, Carol I found out a break for a min
_Aafke, a trouble for those who devotedly love KSA
and for those who are happy to hear things about KSA that contradict with the image created by themselves in their own imagination 
_AbuSinan, “it is done to protect the females, but I don’t buy it.”
I have a question for you AbuSinan, Will you accept (allow) your wife to go and perform “Haj /Omra” alone? When I say alone I mean without ( a single man or woman accompanying her)?
_”Many Saudi women would not cover if they had a choice, but they are required to,”
(teasing) but I don’t accept any over generalized statement without a prove of the validity of what is said.
Could you please show me your statistics? It seems you are certain of your findings, so please enlighten me. I know you might hate me
_Yes, some of the traditions, unfortunately, lead to hypocrisy, and this I don’t accept — I always keep nagging those who are with double standers.
_”If you would not wear the hijab if given a choice, then the intention is not there and the full reward for wearing it is gone.”
.
I totally agree with you. I’ve already mentioned this point in another comment in another post
_ Carol, I second you, yes, most of the Saudi women whom I know too consider the hijjab to be an integral part of their life. There are 3 Saudis who are students here. They are alone (with no father / husband and not even with a 10-year old brother
) yet they are keeping the hijab. Why are they putting it?
A story that just popped up in mind
, last summer a Saudi guy was jogging with his Saudi wife. His wife is “mohajaba”. While they were jogging, a lady stopped the guy, and asked him “why are you covering your wife?” He told her, ask her, don’t ask me. So she asked the wife and she explained to her saying: “God asked me to wear this clothes, who asked you to wear this short and sleeveless t-shirt?” (she was pointing to the clothes the lady wearing) The lady was astonished from the question, and she said , “I don’t know who told me to wear so.”
_WM, please don’t take this personally. What happened to your amazing comments? I used to enjoy reading your comments, but now your comments are written just for the sake of attacking others and to deliver something you want which, in most recent cases, is irrelevant to the posts. You are a knowledgeable person. You can use the knowledge you have in a better way that is respectful and more persuasive. Could you please go back to WM of months or so ago
.
_AbuSinan “Which is better? Being open about it or the hypocrisy involved in condemning it whilst doing it yourself?”
Neither are good. and both are not acceptable.
_”in the West torture is not a daily affair,”
I agree when it comes to their own people. But if it involves the other, (whomever the other is) it’s not true. (Abu Ghraib)
_Saudi in US, Please don’t censor your thoughts, I always look forward to reading your insights. Write as freely as you want, and don’t care of what others might say. At the end it’s an opportunity for all of us to learn from each other — it’s not a war, where some win and some lose ..
Yay — glad you found a break Khalid and given how well your write and convey your thoughts, I’m sure that also shows through in a serious and dedicated student who maintains good grades too!
I also second your comment in regards to WM. The “earlier” WM added and enhanced discussions without attacks and irrelevant verbage. I would also wish to see the “old WM” back.
And you are so right…Saudi in the US (nor anyone else) should feel prohibited from commenting and speaking out here. I know we learn a lot from Saudi in the US as well as so so many others.
Saudi women that I’ve met through the years (in the west) kept their hijab if they were really muhajaba. However, now I hear that some are removing it so that they are not hasseled while abroad.
Western women feel much closer to their husbands outside the Kingdom because they can be themselves and go with their husbands everywhere without being stared at. They can be involved as a couple with their children.
My (Saudi) husband was a soccer coach when we lived in the states. I helped fix the snacks and the drinks, and my daughter came along as well to all the practices and the games for our son. It was so ‘normal’ and so much fun for all. I really miss those days. We still spend a lot of time together here in Saudi as a family, but it’s mainly at home. If we were in Orlando, we’d be boating out on the lake a few times a week….looking for baby alligators; going to movies; walking in the malls or Costco, and eating at all the new restaurants. Different lifestyle altogether.
Goodbye.
Happy lizard-chasing.
?
Sorry, this more appropriate
Nope- this is the best.
Goodbye.
Khalid asked “I have a question for you AbuSinan, Will you accept (allow) your wife to go and perform “Haj /Omra” alone? When I say alone I mean without ( a single man or woman accompanying her)? ”
Well, considering the Saudi government will not allow me to act as her mehram, I dont think she’d be allowed to go at all. She has no male member of her family that she is close to in Saudi that she would consider asking for permission, and the Saudi government is dragging their feet in letting me, her husband according to Islamic law, act in that capacity.
If this wasnt an issue, sure I’d let her go without me. She is a grown woman with her own mind and most capable in her own right. She has done Ummrah, and Insha’Allah, we hope to to Hajj together in the future.
I think, however, this is a loaded question. Going to Hajj or Ummrah alonw is MUCH different than the standard outing a woman might take. You cannot compare a trip to the mall with Hajj.
Actually if I am correct, if your wife wished to perform Hajj she could go to one of the organizations in the States which arrange such trips and be part of a group of women. Before my spouse and I had our marriage approval, he offered this option to me but I chose to wait until all the approvals were in place instead.
AbuSinan, I knew that this exact answer I’ll hear from U. It seems I’m good at prediction
Well, I didn’t ask what the Gov will say, I asked what you will say personally.
Did I compare a trip to the mall with Hajj? Did I mention malls before? I don’t think that anything of what I said was related to malls or shopping centers
True Carol, Any woman could go to one of the organizations that arranges such trips and be part of a group of women. But I asked AbuSinan if he would allow his wife to go alone “without (a single man or woman accompanying her). I asked him this question as a reply for: “it is done to protect the females, but I don’t buy it.” I was curious to know what he considers to be the correct argument. He said I don’t buy it, and didn’t explain what is the right thing. I’m still curious to know his insights. Again, just to clarify things, I’m talking about “mahram” in general and not as AbuSinan said in “malls”
3 weeks ago My mother, one of my aunts an my sister went together for (Omra) They were the three of them only. I’m sure that my mother will never think of going alone to perform Omra though she is a grown woman and she knows her rights perfectly well.
Khalid,
What was the purpose of your question then? Why be vague and ask a question about Hajj or Umrah? I thought that since we were talking about mehrams here you were asking this question in relation to that. It would seem you asked it completely outside of the current thread of discussion.
My wife is free to go anywhere she wants, any time she wants. Full stop. If I had questions about her behavior or who she is as a Muslim woman I wouldnt have married her in the first place. The whole “mehram” system in Saudi is more about the insecurity of husbands and fathers than it is about Islam.
I think that answers it rather well. On a regular basis women do not need an escort. If they are going to a place where hundreds of thousands or even millions will be at, I would suggest anyone go in a group of people. The group could be comprised of men or women.
I would no more suggest a man go alone to Hajj than I would a woman.
As Umrah can be done at any date, I see no reason why a woman could not go alone.
Carol,
My wife would not be allowed to travel into Saudi, or to leave it, without the permission of her mehram.
As a non Saudi female you most certainly would be able to travel in a Hajj group. Hundreds of thousands of women do it every year. The difference is that the mehram rule is not bound upon non Saudis going into the Kingdom for Hajj.
For a Saudi woman she most certainly WOULD require permission from a mehram male to enter and leave the country.
Besides which, my wife would rather go to Hajj with me, her husband under Islamic law. Currently, according to the Saudi government we would not be able to travel together as husband and wife even though we are married according to Shari’a.
I find it more than a bit sad and frustating that the “home of Islam” places such non Islamic restrictions upon their citizens.
Khalid,
I would like to add a little of a prospective to this. I think asking, would you let a women to go to hajj alone, has to be looked at from a different focus. In my opinion the wise answer is NO. This is NOT based on any of the following:
1) Religion
2) ability of women to conduct themselves (this depends on the individual of course)
3) ability of women to make correct decisions
The reason is in Saudi the laws, official offices, society, etc. do not allow women to do 2 and 3 effectively. So as in any travel you may run into issues and I am not sure it is wise to have a women alone, where she is handicapped from taking care of the problem by the environment. Hajj of course has a lot more complexity and higher chance of issues to pop up.
So if you change the question in a hypothetical sense (i.e. we are not Christians) and ask “Will you allow your wife to go to Vatican city”, which is similar to hajj (i.e. religious pilgrimage, different country, different language, etc.) The answer will be YES, because women can act freely in Italy. The women do not need the protection of the Mahram in this case, because society and the laws offered her the necessary protections.
In essence we created the requirements for Mahram for the most cases, because we did not provide women with the ability to act freely and exercise judgment.
Saudi in US,
You addressed that very well.
Do you think that the segregation of the sexes in Saudi, to an extreme, creates an environment that is unhealthy for women (and men) and then drives the “need” for women to be protected?
It would seem it is a circular problem. Women are segregated to protect them, creating a condition in many men that makes them predatory, so segregation itself becomes a cause for the “need” to segregate?.
Segregation then becomes both a cause and an effect.
Too bad the men in the society do not feel the need to protect ALL women as much as they feel the need to protect THEIR women. This is a problem everywhere in the world, but seems to manifest itself more visually in countries that try to segregate the sexes.
To me this is the Islamic equivilant of paedophile priests. When you ask something of people that is unnature, some pretty drastic and often sick results will arise.
Heeey AbuSinan don’t go far please
who on earth dare to mention your wife behavior! why do you always put things out of context?
I think it was related to the post, and there was no ambiguity whatsoever. It was about mahram in the general sense. Do you consider mahram in Islam to be only in malls and not in other places? Does this mean that we can discuss it only under the roofs of malls and not in “Mena, Arafa etc?
As for malls, I’d suggest that you make a visit to (Le Mall, Jeddah Mall Coral Mall in Jeddah, Faisaliya, Mamlaka in Riyadh, Ar-Rashid in Damam) and observe the people there. I can guarantee that you’ll find in these malls more than 90% women/girls alone. (alone = with no male with them) I mentioned these malls because I visited them, so I know what I’m talking about.
Usually when any of my family ask me or any of my male relatives , just to go with them to accompany them to malls in KSA , we refuse
it is always the girls who go alone. But when abroad yes we go to malls, but we leave the girls/women alone to wonder around, and we find any coffee or book store to spend the time while they do their shopping. Some Families that I heard about, they leave the women in malls. Then the men have their own programs, and in the evening go to the mall to meet with the women.
P.S. Not all women love shopping, and not all men hate shopping.
_Saudi in US “Hajj of course has a lot more complexity and higher chance of issues to pop up.”
Exactly, for this reason I mentioned it. when anyone says “I don’t buy it” it means s/he is against it and it is for him/her totally unacceptable. I just wanted to know if there is exceptions or not.
Yes, S-in-US I mentioned that in my previous comment that my mother, as an example, will travel abroad alone, but will never consider taking “Omra” alone. And to the best of my knowledge, Islam requires for Omra and Hajj the woman to be with a group of women or with a mahram.
P.S. Seriously this Blog is amazing, but I always involve in wonderful discussions when checking it
I’ll shut my fingers (not my mouth 
) for the coming couple days because of deadlines.
Famous last words…
by Timothy Findley
AbuSinan,
Yes, the extreme segregation does create major issues. Saudi young men usually behave in a strange way towards women (not everyone of course). For example if a girl shows off more than the usual, she will be a subject to direct stares and even unwelcome harassment from many.
Consider why women have not been given the right to drive until now. One of the primary reasons is that the goverment fears that a huge number of harassment issues will become common place. Segregation feeds a requirement for more of the same. It will take a long time to unwind the effect of this issue.
I tried to avoid going into the details of issues like underdeveloped perceptions of and wrongful expectations from the opposite gender as that topic can be real lengthy. In general the degree of segregation we have in Saudi is unhealthy in my opinion.
There are many Muslim countries that do not enforce segregation and they do just fine in maintaining an Islamic tradition. Saudi definitely needs to make some strides in this area. There are some positives like the recent decision by the Ministry of Labor to strike the section requiring the segregation of men and women at work and the construction of King Abdullah University which will be coed.
Thanks for the response “Saudi in US”.
The stories my wife and her sisters have about this issue in Saudi are legion. Tales of speeding and unsafe driving by young Saudi males trying to pass phone numbers to them.
What I find odd is that it would seem that the only requirement for their attention is the fact that the person is a female. My wife and her sisters wore niqab, in the past, when they lived in Saudi. So these young men could not even be sure of the looks of the women involved, only that they were female.
It even isnt single women, my wife was heavily pregnant, obvious with her abaya on, but it didnt stop men from harrassing her, seeking her number, trying to talk to her. Yes……..niqab on so no visable face, very pregnant, but even that didnt stop the unwantaed and aggresive behavior.
This hyper activity does seem a bit odd and unnatural, so one does look for the causes of it.
As usual, for Saudi, they take things to the extreme and then comes the issues.
Culturally wise I think it will take some time. You can make things co-ed, but if the society is still generally against it, it will take some time to really work.
Today was an interesting experience.. my husband and I were in Safeway (Tamimi) trying to get some shopping done before it closed for prayer. To be more efficient, we split up. Usually we shop together side by side. For whatever reason as I was going up and down aisles by myself I had so many men attempt to engage me in conversation! Of course I just ignored them but this does not happen when my husband and I are together.
Carol,
I think you need to remember that not only are you a woman in an artificially segregated society, you also happen to be “exotic” now.
I know we white Americans are not used to being “exotic”, but in the Middle East we are just as “exotic” as Arabs are here in the USA, even more so as I think there are probably more Arabs in the USA than Americans in the Middle East.
Exotic Bedu, eh? One can have a lot of fun with that…
Hi Carol and everyone here,
Everytime I read more about the topic posted, discussed and debated in this blog, it make me more excited to read more and more…..Keep it up to all of you. Healthy discusson though.
Hi,
In many cases,it is true that when you study abroad and live with only with your spouse or children, you tend to be closer to each other- when you go back to you own country, the situation will normally wont be the same anymore. Apart from your spouse and children you also need to give attention to many other things or activities around you. Afterall when you are abroad your cost of living are sponsored whereas when you go back to your country, you have work to focus on too….Things will be different regardless from any country you are from. Malaysia is not exceptional. (Because I am Malaysian!).
I hope my opinion is relevant to the topic discussed here.
By the way, they are few saudi womens here in a University where I work at. They are without abaya but they wear decent dress and with hijab. Some of the students’ wife also without abaya and some are with abaya but without covering faces.
Welcome Sharie and thanks so much for your comments. It is interesting to hear views and observations from around the world!