The Saudi culture and customs can be very beautiful and there are areas where other nationalities can learn much from Saudis. Yet one aspect of the culture that seems to be endemic and concerning is with the ease that some Saudis can outright lie. These lies can go from mild lies such as saying something was forgotten like picking up something from the store when the person never even went to the store in the first place to a real whopper as denying there is a second or third wife.
However the most common lie which Saudis will get caught up in day-to-day are usually in regards to money and finances. Neither the husband nor the wife will want to acknowledge whether there are any “discretionary” funds. Furthermore, although it is typical and expected for the man to take care of the wife and provide for her, oftentimes in today’s society he will claim to be poor and either ask for or expect her financial help. A good wife who loves her husband and wants to keep him happy may jump right in and help out with no questions asked only at some point and time realize that while she has been sacrificing and forfeiting she will slowly start to notice that when other issues come up the husband who was claiming to be poor and have no funds would suddenly be able to make purchases or spend money or provide money to others allegedly in need at will and with no explanation to the wife on how these funds were miraculously available. Obviously he has not been sharing full details with his wife. Then by comparison the husband may provide the wife with monies for grocery shopping. It is typical for a careful shopper to hoard a certain percentage of these funds each month for herself.
A ploy on the part of the Saudi wife which I’ve learned of happening multiple times is for the Saudi woman to tearfully announce (or have children announce) that she “lost” money her husband may have given to her for a specific purpose. She’ll claim she had it all in her purse and it was stolen or some other similar tale. The women who have used this ploy say it is necessary in order for them to have all the funds they need, citing in many cases that the husband is stingy or does not understand their needs. They may also desire purchases that they believe the spouse will deem as unnecessary. So rather face what they believe would be an outright ‘no’ if asking for additional funds, they take the route claiming to have “lost” money which was given for rent, support or other necessities. After all, how can a man refuse to provide funds for a wife and children to survive?
Now are these tactics and techniques conducive to a trusting relationship? It would seem that these tactics would result in couples drawing further apart and to an overall lack of trust. Yet this has become so accepted and “the norm” of society here in some circles.
Filed under: culture, gender, islam, relationships, Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, travel, Uncategorized
Hi Carol:
LOL – at “I lost the money.” That’s like telling your doctor that you accidently dropped your pain pills in the toilet.
It is my practice to NEVER let my husband know how much money I have. I know it sounds cold, but “been there, done that” and won’t do it again (giving a man any money or taking up the slack).
Of course, if there was an extreme necessity or emergency … that’s different. But routinely: no!
I think the concept of sharing financial information is one of the major differences between ME and Western marriages. This is not unique to Saudi Arabia, but is also common in most Arabic countries. While in the West the family finance information including bank accounts, savings, investments etc. are shared by both spouses, in the Arabic world the man usually will not provide access to the info. There are exceptions on both cases of course.
This introduces some of these cat and mouse games. Because the wife cannot judge what she can reasonably expect for family or personal spending, her only option is to try to get as much as she can even if trickery is involved.
Carol, I agree with you this is an unhealthy part of relationships.
As for dishonesty, in all matters, not just finances, Saudis are not unique in the Middle East. I’ve discovered that Egyptians are the best–or shall I say worst?—liars of the bunch, and I’ve given a lot of thought to the reasons.
I’ve been told that lies serve to “protect the feelings” of the person who is lied to. Perhaps this statement is simply another lie.
I do not know why lying is so prevalent, accepted, and acceptable, in the Middle East. Don’t tell me all people lie; of course they do, but Arabs do it more, and better. It’s a fact. I still love them, but I’ll never understand the lies.
Sorry for a little of topic, but out of curiosity
Some time ago I read on Arabnews that many women there keep their own account in the bank cause they don’t trust their husbands
They open it but they don’t give correct details like mob number or postal address
Then HRW last report on Saudi women, said that they are not allowed to open an account without their husband permission
Which of the two is true ?
Thx
Balqis,
Even as an American national, because of my marriage to a Saudi and he is therefore my official sponsor, I required his permission and signature to have my own bank account. Now that being said, once the “permission” was in place, the bank dealt solely with me and the account was established in my name only. Now I do not understand the comment about a woman opening an account but giving incorrect data. I view my account statement online and my husband is not provided either my pin number or account number.
Hope the above helps.
Carol
Will try to find the article
I think they meant that they open their accounts to save their children money cause they don’t trust the husbands but then they leave fake addresses or tel numb not to be tracked
Carol,
I agree that hiding finances from spouses indicate lack of trust and brings the overall health of the relationship into question. However, in general, Saudi men tend not to trust women’s judgment, especially with regard to finances. And Saudi women posses this exceptional talent of bringing up the same topic again and again and again until they get the money they are seeking , so basically to avoid the argument, men claim to be poor. And since they are the providers of the family, it is only logical they are the one handling finances and can disclose information at their own discretion. Now, claiming to be poor and scavenging the wife for extra cash, that is low, and no self respecting man , Saudi or not, should engage in such behavior.
just to highlight how significant the financing issue is, I am planning on buying a small apartment complex ( Emara) , to move in with my wife. However, she is not going to know that I bought the building; I am going to tell her that we are ONLY renting an APARTMENT. it is a lot easier that way
I suppose there is a characteristic “mistrust” in most traditional Saudi (or should I say Arab?) marriages. It manifests itself most glaringly in financial issues, but it’s hardly confined to it. Saudi women are taught that “al rijal malhom aman” (Men are not to be trusted) echoing the almost nonchalant approach many Saudi men have to the issue of polygamy. On the other hand, Saudi men are indoctrinated with the very common male chauvenist view that “al hareem nageseen agil” (Women are lacking in common sense), and that they should approach them carefully especially when it comes to “serious issues”.
Shadow Whispers, Saudi Jawa,
Thank you both very much for providing an Arab male perspective on this issue. As a Westerner and also with primary exposure to the Saudi woman’s point of view, I do not necessarily get the opportunity to hear the “other side of the story.”
And at least for me, coming from a very open Western background where shared accounts are common, it is startling to learn of various “norm” practices.
So while my post is not too judge it is to shed more understanding and clarification.
Thanks again!
My poor daughter, at age 10, already knows that when Babba says something, not to bank on it.
The arab perspective for female domination is being carried from ages.i have raed about this…but this blog has made us to look into many matters that we were unaware off….great work dude.
SSW – that must be heartwrenching as a mom.
SEO – thank you.
Delhi,
Many western women I know give their husbands all or the majority of their money to help raise their children. Lately, I’ve been trying to advise ALL women EVERYWHERE not to do this (without at least obtaining a letter that the husband will pay it back in the future or that he agrees that he owes his wife this money) for the following reasons:
1. If the husband dies here in KSA, the wife will not only NOT get back her investment, but she will only get 1/7th of it even though she may have put in more than half.
2. If he takes another wife, who stays home and has children, he will still expect the first wife to put in her salary as per their usual arrangement so that she can still live as per their usual lifestyle, and he can afford to keep the other.
3. If the wife runs away from this situation, as I have seen some do, the new wife gets to enjoy the house, the furniture, and the leisure life that the first wife ‘donated’ so generously.
4. By ‘giving’ the money, she is helping him to ‘afford’ the other wife.
5. As stated above, men—as well as women—lie.
I’m not saying not to help out if necessary, but it’s just a good idea to get it in writing … there’s nothing wrong with that as it is the muslim man’s duty to support his wife.
The courts here (according to Arab News) say that if the wife ‘gives’ the money without a note, that she has no recourse to any of it in the future.
And, even knowing this, so many women still think ‘MY husband would NEVER take another wife or take MY money.’ As I watch some of these marriages crumble, I continue to hope and pray that they’re right about that. Some have been luckier than others.
While I don’t think my own husband would do such a thing either, (as he is a very kind, generous, and pious man), I have my own ‘nest egg’ stashed away in the states–In sha Allah, for our retirement. As he helps me prepare my taxes every year, he is very aware of how much I have saved.
I wish I could convince every woman to prepare for her own future while she is young for any and all emergencies.
Actually, one of the scenes that convinced me the most to start saving happend years ago while I was watching a dear old man bag groceries in Naples, Florida. He must have been 80 years old or so. I thought, if I don’t plan from now, that could be me!
You raise very good points to ponder, A2S! And unlike so many who are still in the starry-eyed stage, you have been here 20 plus years and have seen a lot and speaking from your experiences and observations.
Good points, and I think this is actually a big issue in thw wider Saudi/Middle Eastern culture. I call it the “Insha’Allah” culture.
There was a big to do awhile back when a Israeli officer or politician, I dont remember which, said that when an Arab says “Insha’Allah” (God Willing) or “Wallahi” (I swear to God) that almost always what follows will be a lie.
As a Muslim who has a lot of experience in the Middle East, I can say there was a certain amount of truth to this statement.
In the Middle East and in Arabic culture in general, appearances often are more important than substance. So even if you never plan on doing something for somebody, it is more polite in the culture to say “Insha’Allah” (God Willing) than to just say no. I guess you get the added insurance of being able to blame God, because you said “Insha’Allah” and it didnt happen, so obviously God didnt want it to happen.
There are phrases for this in Arabic, ie “Kalam fadi” (empty words) and “Jamile kadaba” (saying nice things when you dont mean it”.
Personally, I find honesty more important than being polite, but that goes back to my social and cultural upbringing.
Back to the money thing, in Islam the women is not required to provide funds for the family, whether she works or not. Men in the Middle East, it is my experience, dont let the women in on any of the financial issues.
This is to the detriment as what happens if/when the man passes away and the women involved have absolutely no idea what is there, what is required, or even how things work.
This is what happened when my father in law passed away. My mother in law had ZERO idea about bills, finances, insurance, or even the average price of goods.
Jawa said ““al rijal malhom aman”.
I have heard my mother in law say this MANY times. Since my wife was raised here in the West for many years she’ll tell my mother she told me something and my mother in law will tell her “why did you tell him that”?
The idea being that some things should be kept secret, that you can never let the man know everything.
After reading this topic written by American_bedu my first impression -or you can say reaction instead- was why doesn’t she change the tittle into”Do All Men Routinely Lie?”! I think the routine of lieing is experienced within almost every couple on earth. It all depends whether you are married to a trustful man or unfortunately to one who ‘s bad habit is lieing from his childhood. You can never relate this to a saudi or to specify a certain nationality. The role of a smart woman comes here. Something I know from the experience of many women from different nationalities is NEVER TELL A GUY HOW MUCH YOU OWN! Well ofcourse you can help your husband in financial situations but never let your help last for a while or else you’ll be entering the world of routine lie.
Thanks for commenting Anoudf and welcome to the blog!
I have seen in my various travels around the world that it seems individuals from the ME region seem to lie easier than others, and oftentimes about such silly or little things. I have wondered (and I’m NOT an expert on this subject) if they believe that it is better to tell a falsehood than disappoint someone but then this belief continues to grow where there are deeper lies told as well and sometimes without any remorse?
Carol,
Telling a lie more often than not is done to remain “polite” and to keep up appearances. That is why, sadly, “Insha’Allah” and “Wallahi” often are lies, using the name of God as cover.
I think it creates a culture where lies are an accepted practice.
I must admit that I found lying more common in Egypt (as another commented mentioned) than I did in the Gulf countries. One of my former students in Egypt announced in class, “My mother said lying is the national pasttime.” A friend told me that we value the truth and insist upon using it more in our cultures (she was British), while the Egyptians value truth, too, but prefer to use it sparingly.
Regarding the finances, I’m ok w/ the separate keeping of them, but lack of transparency in any marriage is a recipe for discord.
I can say that from what I understand of Egyptian culture, most men come home with their salaries and give it to the wives who are the ones who pay the bills and buy the groceries. This is what my in-laws do, and what my husband expects to do with me. I can’t ever imagine not telling my husband my bank statement, I can’t imagine not having his name on my account either. Coming from a western mentality where all income is combined income its what I’m used to. Of course Islamically all the wife’s income is HER income, and the man MUST provide her an allowance as well, but I don’t think that means I need to lie to my husband about how much money I have.
As for saying thats something overall in Arab culture, I must digress. All of the Egyptians I know, which is actually quite a few, there is no such lying about finances.
But Egyptians and lying about other things such as knowing the way to a destination, or being free to meet for coffee, or being able to finish paperwork, or being in the office… etc, thats a totally different ball game.
In that case its almost a given.
Ya Rab.
While the specific post is about the culture of lying, various comments raise another interesting point…do Arab men, Saudi men, expect Western women to be more adaptable and flexible in regards to finances such as pitching in and not expecting the allowances or provisions that are expected as part of the custom and tradition of Eastern (other Arab) women?
““lost” money her husband may have given to her for a specific purpose. She’ll claim she had it all in her purse and it was stolen or some other similar tale.”
This is totally an unhealthy relationship”. I cannot live in such continuous series of lies. My parents brought us up to admit the wrong things that we did rather than lying because the punishment of lying is greater than saying the truth even if we are wrong. As an example, my sis taught her children that they shouldn’t eat chocolate at night. if my 3-year-niece ate at night chocolate (which she does indeed , — she is a choco addict) and she said I didn’t , my sis will not talk with her for a day (this is her punishment) but if she said yes and apologized , she’ll ask her don’t do it again. (kids are smart)
AbuSinan I wholeheartedly agree with you about the Inshallah trend. I remember once I had an appointment with an Austrian. I said “inshallah I’ll meet you at …” The Austrian replied “Don’t say inshallah” I was perplexed. I said “Inshallah means I’ll meet with you on time unless something out of hands happened , I had a car accident , I died (God forbid). Then I explained that unfortunately some people are afraid to say know or they don’t have “no” in their dictionary, so they just say ‘inshallah’ to avoid “no” or “I cannot” or “I don’t want”
I kept saying Inshallah to the Austrian; many times I said it (more than usual even). always I was up to my inshallah) Honestly ,I felt offended when I heard “don’t say inshallah”
As aside note, I became very familiar with the connotations that “inshallah” carry. I can know from the tone and the way the person say to me “inshallah” whether he said it and means it , or he said it just to show that he is polite. It’s impolite though to use God to lie to others. However I should note something that sometimes people force you to lie. Once a guy kept nagging me to do something for him. I know that I cannot do it, so I said no no no no no no no no no no no I cannot I cannot I cannot I cannot I cannot I cannot I cannot I cannot do it and he kept nagging me again and again . After I fed up , i said , I promise you that I’ll do my best , and I’ll talk with … about …. . Believe it or not, he was happy, and stopped harassing me, and I didn’t do anything of what I said to him . Strange people in a strange world . (the guy who kept nagging me was an Arab, but not Saudi) but I know many people who will appreciate it if you lie to them
SSW I feel sorry for your daughter.
Khalid, you’re right…I have also learned how to distinguish when inshallah is added as rote habit or when it is used in place of saying ‘no.’ This is one important aspect of arab culture that everyone should know about and learn how to discern.
ohhhhhh, I’ll share an experience of lying with you that I encountered last night. Where we live, we have a nice internal courtyard. The walls are 12 feet high. One side of a courtyard wall has a general parking lot on the other side. Kids tend to play soccer there and oftentimes their ball ends up inside my courtyard (even though technically they are not allowed or supposed to play in the parking lot; there are several fields in the neighborhood specifically for soccer). Last night the ball landed in the courtyard, thankfully just missing one of my ceramic vases. The kids ring the bell and ask for their ball. As my husband returned it to them, they told him they were sorry for kicking it over the wall into our courtyard, acknowledged they should not have been playing in the parking lot and promised my spouse they would not play there anymore. Within five minutes we once again heard the soccer ball slapping against the courtyard wall…..
Carol,
It is my experience that Arab men who marry Western women often try to gete away with things they would NOT do with their own women. I dont know if they are just trying to get over on them or what.
Many times I have seen Western women dealing with family finances in a way that an Arab woman would NEVER do.
Amen, Abu Sinan.
My wife has made me well aware of the situation. For her it isnt a cultural thing really, it is a religious thing. Here in the USA we deal with finances in a completely different way.
To this day my wife is surprised that men and women have joint accounts here. The way she looks at it the man should have his account that is meant for himself, the house, and his responsibilities with his wife and children. The wife has an account that is hers.
In Islam itself a woman is not require to contribute a penny to the marriage or the upkeep of the house or the family. She can do so if she wants, but if she does it, it is considered a charity on her part and is a gift. It cannot be required of her.
Manal and I have different accounts. I pay for everything for the house, the family, and her. It is my duty. My wife has been very generous in helping out and giving when she can and I appreciate it. She has income even though she doesnt work and I provide her with money on a monthly basis as well.
Keeping up with this is hard sometimes. When we first got married I took a second job for awhile. Even now I will take on extra projects in my field outside of work to put more money together for extra things, but it is very important to me to do this on my own.
Many American men might find the concept weird, but to be honest I enjoy it. To me there is a certain amount of pride and good feeling I get from knowing that I support my wife and my children on my own. So if I have to work a few hours extra every week, put in overtime and do extra projects, I do it willingly.
When I walk into our place and know I paid for everything there, we have no credit cards or anything else drawing interest, and know I did it myself it is a great feeling.
Abu Sinan, would your comments imply that a Saudi man (or muslim man) who does follow these instructions of Islam is less islamic? If a muslim man would for example tell a woman “I’m poor, have many obligations and cannot care of you, you must take care of yourself” does that imply he does not view his wife as a partner or someone for whom he is obligated?
I’m playing devils advocate here and look forward to all responses.
I guess if a man needs the help there is nothing forbidding him from asking, but I would think it would have to be a grave emergency. A woman is not required to help, but one would think she would if it was really needed.
We’d have to get into what “need” means. Does he not have enough money to put food on the table (or floor as may be the case in Saudi) or does it mean he wants a new Mercedes and cannot afford it without help? Does he need help to pay medical care, or can he not afford the lavish vacations the family has been taking?
If a man cannot take care of his family, and providing the finances for the family is one of his duties, I would think this would be grounds for divorce. Under Islam he is required to support his wife. If he cannot do so then he is not meeting his ends required under Islam. Now courts in many “Islamic countries” make it hard for women to divorce because they tend to deviate from Islamic law and take tribal or culture into account.
In your situation it is pretty clear the woman would have a clear ground for divorce. If he cannot take care of his wife he cannot require her to take care of herself. If she wishes she could divorce. If she wanted to she could make a choice to stay with him. Again, this could be due to circumstances. If the woman was unable to support herself she’d have little option but to divorce and move back to her family for support or even seek another husband who could support her.
I dont think a man who cannot support a wife is less Islamic/Muslim, but he certainly strays outside what is acceptable if he requires her to support herself.
Men who cannot support a family should NOT get married. Men who want to marry another wife should not expect the current wife/wives to provide any support for themselves so he can do so.
I find in the case of Westerners who marry Muslim men they seldom do not know their rights, what is expected of their husbands, and are then often mistreated by these men in a way that most Arab/Muslim women would NOT put up with.
Thanks for your point of view, Abu Sinan.
Your question about Arab men and Western women, yea a lot of them do expect the woman to do more than an Arab wife would.
But it all depends on the man. My husband would be fine if I decided to quit my job and stay home, but it would put a lot of stress on our finances. I could do it, but it would lower our living standard. I work with the understanding that it is only for a little while, until my husband finishes his graduate degree and makes a good living.
I totally understand that this is charity, he knows its charity, and I do it as such. I don’t think I will ever necessarily want to sit at home all the time, but once we have children it will be easier than working. But I will probably always be employed in some way or another. InshAllah.
He doesn’t expect it of me, but its a choice I’ve made for now.
MashAllah for Abu Sinan, to go home and know you’ve earned everything free and clear must be a wonderful feeling.
Carol/Abusinan,
I see alot bias against men and Saudi men in the previous discussion. Although i 100% agree with Abusinan point that in Islam, men are REQUIRED to provide for thier wife/wives for thier housing, food, clothing, children expenses AND allownce money for dsicretionary spending. Having said that, any EXTRA income that the man makes after satisfying all those needs is his OWN money. As we agreed before, if the wife works, her money is hers, the husband has no right to ask for her salary, if she pitches in, that is a “charity” or extra effort on part of the wife. By the same token, if the man provided housing, clothing, food at a reasonable level to the wief and children, it is NON OF HER BUSINESS what he does with the rest of the money. he can save it, invest it , spend it on playstation, flat screen tv, traveling what ever he likes to do, he works hard for that money, and he has the right to enjoy it. This is the merit of Islamic home financial planning.
Now, if we are talking about a family where both spouses are working individuals and they AGREE on splitting finances in some way, it is a totally diffrent topic.
My point is that ladies can’t demand to be treated by the Islamic version of managing finances, then complain when men spend thier extra money on themselves or new wives… women can’t have it both ways
Shadow Whispers,
I agree with your words and apologize if I said words that implied the wife expects DISCRETIONARY income of the husband after satisfying needs as clearly outlined and entitled to. My disappointment is when I am aware of a muslim man/Saudi man, who does not choose to honor the basic needs and entitlements in accordance with Islam whether a wife is an Arab wife, western wife, muslim or not!
You are very right in that woman cannot have it both ways or as many women may joke: What’s mine is mine and what’s his is mine too! No sirree…it does not quite work that way. But by the same token, the MAN should not believe that what’s mine is mine and what’s her’s is mine too!
mai ous n’cest pas?
Just a question, I also understood that a man is required to provide for wife and children ”according to his income”?
So not just the bare minimum, while spending lots of money for himself. But to let the whole family have a lifestyle correspondent on the income available?
Aafke,
It is my understanding that a family should have a lifestyle in accordance on the income of the man but I am certainly not an expert on this subject.
Shadow Whispers,
I agree with you 100%. If I gave the impression we were talking about something else I am sorry.
The man is required to support his family at his level, anything left over after that is his.
I have seen men who make a fair amount of money make themselves poor, and their families, by trying to add more wives, ect. I think it would be haram to lower a family’s standard of living so he can marry one or more wives.
I think what we are talking about mostly are those men who refuse to do right by their families when it comes to money. A man who supports his family at a fine level should not have to account for where his extra money goes.
Carol/Abusinan
Thanks for your sincere replays. I also apologize if my earlier comments were aggressive, I never intended for them to sound the way they did, thank you both for being so patient. It is just that the phrase “whatever is mine is mine and whatever is his is mine too” pushes the wrong buttons with me, and you can understand why
Back to the standards of living issue, according to Islamic teachings, the husband is REQUIRED to provide for his wife a life style that is EQUIVILANT to the life style she was accustomed to at her parents’ house. To convert that to modern societies, that means a life style equivalent to her life style before marriage, if she lives in a house, he has to provide a house, if she has her own driver, he has to provide one, and so on. Of course, if the wife CHOOSES to lower her living standards for the sake of the man she loves than it is ok. And if the husband CHOOSES to provide for a better living standards for the woman he loves that is also welcomed. But the rule of thumb is, to provide a living standard consistent to what the wife used to before getting married
Shadow Whispers,
Most men cannot afford to have their new wife live according to her same standards when they are just starting off because he is usually just getting started in his business and has just had to give her money for her dowry. This is especially true of students that marry. Some women help their husbands all through school and in the early stages of their business and then these men turn around and marry another wife as soon as they strike it rich. This is the complaint here.
That’s why, it’s fine for the woman to share in the expenses, but she needs to look out for her future. So, a kind man would give her something in writing that she has contributed so much to the household and in case of death or divorce, she will be paid back this money first. I think that women need to protect themselves, and I see very few doing so.