Polygamy: A First Wife Speaks Out (Reflections from a Western Wife)
Polygamy remains a sensitive subject in the Kingdom and a fact of life in the Kingdom. Any woman who makes her life in the Kingdom will face it one way or another; either as an observer or as a participant whether she was willing or not. One Western woman who found herself in polygamy as a first wife after many years of marriage to her Saudi husband spoke with me very candidly about her situation in the hopes that it will help others.
The Western woman has been married to her husband for more than 20 years. During the courtship period her parents readily accepted her choice of mate in spite of the differing cultures and customs. During their marriage vows in an Islamic ceremony, the husband promised to take care of his Western wife and also not to have more than one wife. After their marriage, they relocated to the Kingdom. The Western wife was warmly received by her extended Saudi family. She felt very secure in their relationship. The relationship however started to undergo a subtle change after 15 years of marriage when the husband randomly remarked that men were entitled to having more than one wife. The Western wife was surprised by that comment but did not pursue the subject.
As some more time passed though the Western wife began to have an inherent sense that something was amiss in the relationship. It was not as if the husband was not loving and spending time with her but he began to travel more frequently. He was illusive about his travels such as where he was going and when exactly he would return. He not only began to spend more time on his mobile but would exit the room while talking indicating the desire that his conversation not be overheard.
The Western wife learned inadvertently that her husband had married another woman some time ago and that they had had a child together as well. Naturally this was a major shock to her and for a period of time she kept this revelation solely to herself. However this strong woman decided that in her case it would be better to receive direct confirmation of the truth and chose to confront her husband. She did so in a gracious manner informing him she would prefer not to be in his way if he had chosen another.
The Western wife and her husband always had a comfortable relationship and better yet, were close friends as well as lovers. His reaction to her statement was one of relief that he could acknowledge the truth to her. She had lifted a tremendous weight from his heart. That does not mean the emotions and heartache she feels has disappeared and that there is no pain. She felt the honesty was preferred over deceit and lies.
Not all of her immediate family is aware that the husband took a second wife. And the Western wife does not want her children to be unduly burdened or their life disrupted or more importantly, their relationship with their father to change or be negatively impacted.
She candidly shared that he told her he wanted someone else in his life if it was halal and did not want to ruin the Western wife’s life with a divorce. He reassured his wife that there were no shortcomings or her part. In fact she made a very insightful comment that perhaps when a woman makes a man a wonderful wife, he thinks all women are the same and having another one will only be more of everything.
Not surprisingly a key difference in the relationship now between the Western wife and the husband is that she no longer feels secure and has concerns about the future. She does continue to have evolving emotions from betrayal, a shattering sense of loss followed by anger and depression. After all, something is broken that will never quite be the same. She now looks at the man she married in a different light knowing he is not necessarily the man she thought he was. She has gone through self-blame such as was she over-devoted to her children or put too much effort into balance the home and career and not enough emphasis on husband. The worst change she has experienced is the lack of a future; not knowing where she will be in a few years or sometimes, in even a few months.
She has resolved herself to try and endure the situation because of the children. And she does still have feelings for her husband and cannot picture herself ever married to anyone else. There is the concern that the husband favors the second wife over her and whether this wife would put demands on the husband which impact on the Western wife and her life.
The Western wife sagely advised that any woman married to a Saudi should always be prepared for this eventually. After 20 plus years she was certain the husband taking another wife could never happen to her. Just because one may be very much in love with the husband and putting all efforts into being a good wife there are usually other factors over which one has no control. Money is a huge detriment. The more money some men make, the more they feel privileged. A woman married to a Saudi should make sure to start early and put away money for retirement. While money isn’t proof of character it can give one some sense of security to have a house and to have some savings. It also will give one a more equal footing to evaluate if it is worthwhile staying in the relationship or starting over. The Western wife has made the choice to see this through.
Polygamy is such a sensitive issue that few know much about. Yet it is a reality that exists in the Kingdom. The Western wife’s candidness on responding to my queries is greatly appreciated. I wish her and her family all the very best.
Filed under: Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, culture, gender, islam, relationships, religion
After 20+ years of marriage and adaptation of a woman to another culture and religion, it takes alot of guts for her to accept or deal with the idea of her husband taking another wife.
It is not an uncommon situation; and women in these cases and at that stage in their lives, weigh the pros and cons.
Remaining in such a relationship is not a weakness but another way in which one adapts to the adopted culture. If anything, it is a sign of strength that she is able to carry on with dignity and to hold her family together.
This does not excuse any husband however from taking a single handed decision such as taking on another wife however much he may think it his right. There is such a thing as decency.
I don’t have respect for this man because he deceived his wife and wasn’t honest with her about it from the start. The trust issue for me would be totally gone. I can only hope and pray that I never find myself in this same situation because my gut reaction would be to leave, regardless of children or financial security. To live with such doubts about myself and my relationship wouldn’t be worth staying in a marriage like this. Life is too short.
Its not a sign of strength on the woman’s part – she’s chained to the Saudi legal system where she loses child custody on leaving the husband.
If she had any choice, she would’ve taken the kids away from Saudi Arabia and broken the relationship with the guy.
I feel for her, such an event hit too close to home. My mom. And a hell too many times-with him, as my brothers till me from men’s gathering, bragging about it. I have no clue, up to this day, why mom is still hanging in there, strong and independent as she is. She still greets dad with the same care. Still sees him off at the door, does not sleep until he does, and for me, the daughter, the girl, it breaks me. It breaks my faith in my worth as a woman, and my respect for my mom, and my faith in men. I feel very confused and seriously upset feelings towards my dad, especially when he used to limit my freedoms and priviliges before marriage. Once I got married, I continued feeling restless in my marraige because, to me, it its just a matter of time that a husband would remarry. I try to handle my fears by insuring my independency, but still, it is traumatic: experiencing first hand my mom getting cheated on and hurt by a man she’s dedicated 10+ years of her life to, and to whom she let many career and success opportunities pass her by.
You’d sometimes think standing by a pologomist has its consequences on the wife alone, and that staying with the man would be for the sake of the kids. I strongly stand against it, because the consequences can only be grave: the boys are going to grow up accepting pologymy, the girls are going to grow up with it feeling downgraded and probable/futre victims.
Polygyny is undeniably a part of Islam and we must not forget there is a reason why Allah made it permissible. It is a fact that Islam restricted the number of wives one may have, considering that some of the earlier Prophets and nations had more then four wives. As such, it is detrimental to accept it as a part of our religion, unacceptance means that one is not pleased with what Allah has decreed, and this is a serious issue.
Now, on the other hand, we all have our preferences, likes and dislikes.
Surely, polygyny is one of those things that is difficult to deal with for most women, and it is surely difficult to handle for most men, except those who are not mindful of Allah. A womans’ acceptance of polygyny, for whatever reason she accepts it, at least to me, displays her trust in Allah, because I believe that no matter the children, the womans’ (old) age, financial security concerns, etc, if she does not rely upon Allah to help her deal with the situation, she will not stay unless she hopes for a reward from Allah for her patience and oftentimes suffering. Polygyny, as anything else in life, is a test, and I look up to those women who deal with it in the best way possible.
On the other hand, there are sadly many men who abuse the concept of polygyny, most of the time unintentionally, not realizing they are causing more harm then good. However, we cannot judge the place polygyny holds in Islam based on the actions of men/women.
As for the saudi husband/western wife marriages, I would have to disagree that women should consider this as a possibility specifically in reference to saudi men. This is a possibility at all times with all muslim men. In fact, there are so so many plural marriages here in the very heart of the US, mostly reverted americans. So it is very much in mens nature.
To many western men (non-Muslim) have cheated on their wives, and to many times the cheating is ongoing. They have mistresses on the side for whom they feel no sense of responsibility, since after the good time with her, he goes home to his wife who is most of the time clueless about what is going on. And to many times do the western (non-Muslim) wives find out that their western (non-Muslim) husbands are cheating on them, and guess what happens? They stay married to their husbands, to many times. It is in the nature of to many women. Yet no one criticises the “western version of (haram) polygyny”, although, more often then not, the man has no number restriction, no moral, emotional or financial sense of responsibility for the woman/women he has on the side.
Also, I would say for every muslim wife who finds herself in polygyny and dislikes it or is not treated fairly, there is a muslim wife who finds herself in the same situation and is fine with it, even happy with it. In fact, there are muslim wives who encourages their husbands to remarry, and no, not always because they don’t love their husbands or want some time to themselves. There are in fact muslim women who want to do this sincerely for the sake of Allah, wanting for another sister what they want for themselves. There are also sisters like me who do not want it for themselves and pray that Allah does not test them with it, yet believe and hope that, in case one day they are tested with it, they will deal with it trying to please Allah first and foremost, believing that Allah does not burden a soul with what they can not bear, because it is what Allah says.
In all of this, I just wanted to point out that polygyny is not a possibility when married to a Saudi, it is a possibility when married to a Muslim.
In terms of the woman you wrote about,Carol, I wanted to point out that her husband is certainly sinful even if he treats her well, because in his marriage agreement he agreed not to take on another wife, which I am assuming was one of the reasons she felt safe with him and agreed to marry him. In Islam we must fulfill our covenants, especially when it comes down to marriage/peoples rights. His breaking of the covenant gave her the right to ask for khula (I am not encouraging her to get divorced by saying this) because he broke their marriage agreement, and this would be more then a valid islamic reason. I just wanted to point out with this that as women we have more rights in Islam then most people would think we do.
There is surely much that can be said on this topic, however the abundant words of mine should suffice (sorry, I am quite wordy these days, smile).
I find this subject one of the most fasinating of the Islamic culture. There are so many variables and so many things that can happen. Which spouse will be good to whom. So many poeple and blogs have been writing abut this and sharing and that is good. This sister who wrote above about her parents is the FIRST time i’ve heard about Poly from the eyes of the child involved. Few peope know how this affects the children grwing up and I applaud her for speaking up. I always wondered how the kids felt seeing their dad only half the time (or less depending on circumstances). How did the children feel about seeing their father leave their mother for another (usually younger) wife. Seeing their beloved father go to other beloved children. Yes Allah put Poly on the Earth for a reason and it is the duty of those that practice it to adhear t it’s principles and be as fair as possible to those involved.
I hope this woman is ding the best to protect her children from bad feelings no matter how she feels about it. I hope soon she will talk openly with her husband and tell him how she really feels and see if the husband (who is her best friend) will reassure her about her future. She should tell him she feels vulnerable and betrayed and he should do his utmost to make her feeled as loved as when they first married. May Allah reward her. (and him if he’s fair)
All of these comments illustrate the complexity and difficulty of the concept of loyalty in the marital relationship. The woman in this case has been in the Kingdom for much of her life, and would probably find herself in a weaker position– socially, finanacially, culturally, and religiously– if she were to repatriate. This has nothing to do with Allah.
We do not have to like or accept pologyny for ourselves simply because Allah gave instructions for it in the Qur’an. All we have to do is acknowledge that it is halal under certain circumstances.
I used to tell my husband, “You can have as many wives as you wish, but I won’t be one of them.” When I found myself in the situation, after eleven years of marriage, I divorced him immediately (we were in the USA by then). Had he been honest about his circumstances, had he been forthright and respectful of my trust in him, I might not have taken the step I took. Ironically, it was was his dishonesty more than his infidelity that sent me over the edge into divorce. My ex-husband is Egyptian, not Saudi, and I still feel sad about the divorce, six years after the fact, and he has divorced the second wife.
I have seen polygynous families both here and in Saudia, Muslims from various nationalities. Ninety per cent of second marriages caused more problems than they were worth, and the women’s pyschological integrity had been compromised, and in some cases destroyed.
Yes, infidelity is in the nature of the man, but so is fidelity in the nature of the woman. That does not mean each has obey their natural impulses.
It was Saudi women who told me that Mohammed had specified that each wife must be treated equally, which was not possible, and so he was making a little joke. I have seen many totally monogamous marriages in Saudi; taking another wife is optional, not mandatory. Keeping marriage going with one spouse is hard enough without complicating it logrythmically by adding another wife and family. I agree with your readers above who find the man’s inability to discuss it with his wife before she finds out about it (very common) despicable. Grow some . . . ummm. . .er . . . gumption!
Perhaps if this man had taken a disabled woman, an elderly and poor widow, or some other woman who was disadvantaged in comparison to other Saudi women then I would think better of his actions. We could give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he has done as much. This would, however, contradict the norm. Why is it that some women feel compelled to accept polygamy on religious grounds when the husband is so clearly not taking another wife and treating his wives equally as dictated by religion?
Marahm,
Polygyny is ‘infidelity’ only insofar as marriage itself is- which would be absurd, hence your position [polygyny=marital infidelity] is untenable.
I do not not know ONE man who has taken a second wife that has had the “gumption”,as intlxpatr said above,to tell the first wife of his intentions.What I would like to know from these men is if it is lawful for you to have more than one wife why do you always do it in “secret”? Why not be truthful and tell the first, I may be going on extended trips or talking in secret in our home because I’m seeking another wife.Perhaps if they were truthful the current wife or even the family could help to find him a second wife that is suitable. Most of the men I know with more than one wife have also deceived the second wife by not telling her of the first wife.What do you plan on basing your marriage on if it begins with lies?
As for those women who are afraid to divorce the husband because he’ll get the kids,I say go ahead and divorce him,let him take the kids with him to the new wife and see how long the “honeymoon” lasts!Especially if he lied to the second wife..Just wait ’til she finds out not only did he have a first wife but he’s got 9 kids he needs you to take of now!
In all sarcasm,come on guys just be honest.Not just with your wife(wives),children, and yourself but with ALLAH.The one who made this permissable for you in the first place.And how about just for one minute put the shoe on the other foot and think about how you would feel if it was lawful for your wife to seek another husband and behind your back if she so chose to!As you can probably tell this is a real ’sour’ subject for me so I’ll stop before sarcasm really gets the best of me!Thanks for letting me vent! : )
“I do not not know ONE man who has taken a second wife that has had the “gumption”,as intlxpatr said above,to tell the first wife of his intentions.”
Then you should get out more; I have known of women who even seek second wives for their husbands.
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“What I would like to know from these men is if it is lawful for you to have more than one wife why do you always do it in “secret”?”
However either party feels about it, it is certainly lawful, this can be objectively established with reference to the shari`ah. It is very possible for someone to be ashamed of doing something that is perfectly legal- that is obvious. And shame is not the basis on which we establish what is lawful and what is prohibited. What if I wanted to marry an African-American sister (this is a fictitious scenario); my parents wouldn’t let me, though it is certainly legal for me to do so. They might even abandon me for doing so, so I might feel ashamed and hide my intention from them, and even the marriage itself. This would not be advisable, but it would be perfectly legal (in a shar`i sense).
“Why not be truthful and tell the first, I may be going on extended trips or talking in secret in our home because I’m seeking another wife.Perhaps if they were truthful the current wife or even the family could help to find him a second wife that is suitable.”
Most women are 100% against polygyny and want nothing to do with it, for various reasons, to the extent that they might even kill themselves if they heard they had become ‘just another’ wife. This is no more than a prejudice of our times; there are times and places where women would positively encourage their husbands to marry as many as possible (it being an indication of wealth etc). Of course, there is nothing wrong with either the prejudice in favour of or against polygyny, insofar as it is restricted to being a personal preference. But such preferences cannot change the law, cannot make the lawful unlawful etc.
“Most of the men I know with more than one wife have also deceived the second wife by not telling her of the first wife.What do you plan on basing your marriage on if it begins with lies?”
That’s a good point. if she asks him if he is married, and he answers, ‘no’, he is sinning. But there is no legal obligation to inform wife #1 of wife #2, though it is obviously very much more than prudent to do so!
“And how about just for one minute put the shoe on the other foot and think about how you would feel if it was lawful for your wife to seek another husband and behind your back if she so chose to!”
But the point is, bro, it is not. It is legal, for a husband to marry up to four. It is legal to do so without the consent of wife #1. What we can definitely say is, because in our time and place this is frowned upon, he should not do it (but it is not haram for him to do so); in practice, anyway, there are restrictions on what he can do- of a cultural nature. A woman won’t marry a man (e.g.) if he wants two wives; this is her right. So a man with this intention has problems getting married, perhaps, and if he does engage in polygyny it brings problems. So a thing can be legal (not compulsory) and frowned upon, culturally, as a personal preference.
American Muslima: Please, ”if he’s fair” He’s already proven that he is a liar, a spineless mollusk and a louse!
There are other blogs where it is discussed how devistating it is for the children. Especially if they and their mother are left for the younger wife and new children. It makes the wife feel secondrate, and it makes the children feel secondrate. And if this is the case, then it is NOT allowed by the Quran to take a second wife.
Marahm, I’m sorry to hear that you have had to experience this too. Well done though.
WM: if done secretly and against earlier promisses it does fall under the meaning of the word ”infidelity” I have not yet heard of a first wife who felt joy on finding out about another secret marriage. Only betrayal: because that is just what it is. In real life
Please Tina; vent! So I can vent too. The guy in question here is a bloody liar and breaks his solemn word. Such a person can never be trusted. And I expect he’ll burn in hell for it. The only way he could have gone about the second marriage honorably is to discuss it with wife #1 first while being prepared to give up the idea completely if she’s not happy with it. Because it’s his first duty to make sure his wife is cared for physically and emotionally. And if he doesn’t care for her that much anymore he certainly can’t marry a wife who he’ll love more, and if he can’t give #2 up he should give #1 the option to get a divorce. Of course keeping her children and providing for them. Otherwise she doesn’t really have a free choice.
And please, ”It’s in man’s nature to want more women” It’s in MY nature to expect loyalty and honesty from the person I’ve devoted my life and love to!
Where is it written that all women in ”the west” have no problems with extramarital relationships? I believe there are quite a large number of women who divorce their husbands on that ground.
I expect, when I’m married, that I’ll keep my future husband so busy that he will not have the time, wish, or energy to look elsewere.
And if he does I’ll rip him to pieces. No divorce or sacrifice. Just rip out his useless heart and burn it in front of his dying eyes! >:(
Perheaps this is the reason I get so few proposals…
And taking the Prophet(pbuh) as an example: he was married to Kadisha, a woman 20 years older than him, he loved only her, for 20 years, without marrying a juicy second wife. And it is argued that after she died, and he did have more wifes, they were all raken as an example, and only Aïscha was a virgin: all the others were widows, or divorcees.
And certainly didn’t wish it for his own daughter Fatima: when her husband discussed his wish to marry a second wife, the Prophet(pbuh) asked him not to do it, or, if he had to, to let Fatima have a divorce.
I can imagine that some women might support each other, and be happy in a polygamous marriage, but there is no reason I can see for women in Islam to have to put up with a second marriage if it makes them unhappy.
And I really don’t see how you would please Allah by suffering.
What baffles me is how often the “legality,” of this issue is abused.
Polygamy was prescribed as a social safety net, not as something to be taken lightly or with ease. It is a way to guarantee that widows and orphans will be taken care of if the ummah fails to provide for them. This is the LAST resort that we should take, not something to be done for fun or other selfish means (and ALL other means are selfish). Polygamy shouldn’t even be considered much anymore. Women should be offered the chance to be independent. To work, to have their careers, their hobbies, control their bodies (all Islamically prescribed), and not have to rely on men for everything. When we place women in these helpless situations, they will have to marry to simply survive.
And I cannot see Allah ever suggesting that we should keep our women so helpless that they have to sleep with a man just so they can eat. Marriage should offer a stable, loving situation in which a woman (and man), should feel safe and secure. When we allow ourselves to even consider the prospect of polygamy in these times, we offer no such safety to women.
I’d go so far as to call it emotional abuse, amounting to causing literal physical problems later in life.
I simply can’t see how this would be condoned except in the worst possible situation by God. Furthermore, it baffles and infuriates me to see women condone or justify polygamy when we could simply follow what Islam prescribes and give women ALL of their rights, not just those men feel comfortable with.
WM, ”But there is no legal obligation to inform wife #1 of wife #2,” so you don’t care at all about secondary rate stuff like honesty, loyalty, and truthfulness???
Wow, you are a great example for muslims.
”A woman won’t marry a man (e.g.) if he wants two wives; this is her right. So a man with this intention has problems getting married, perhaps, and if he does engage in polygyny it brings problems.”
so I take it that your opinion is; that if women are so selfish as to not want to marry a man who, from the onset of marriage is not planning to devote himself to her, but rather give her some superficial affection, lie to her, and just use her, and plans to devalue her whenever he finds another hot prospect, it is fully justifiable to decieve these women? Because they are so selfish as to want to be loved and cherished?
Because as soon as you have multiple wives it is impossible to have this deep soul-connection a lot of humans hope and wish for.
Please give us your real name and a photo so we can warn the ”women of the world” against your evil intentions.
WM, there is never an excuse for a man to act like an animal. If he wishes to do so, we always have prison, or chemical castration.
Polygamy in these cases only arise when the men don’t value their wives. That’s the simple truth. Hence, your tirade against women who want to have a real one/one marriage deserving to be devalued is flawed.
When you love someone, you will do anything to prevent them from any form of harm.
I fail to see that in polygamy.
WM, ”But there is no legal obligation to inform wife #1 of wife #2,” so you don’t care at all about secondary rate stuff like honesty, loyalty, and truthfulness???
Wow, you are a great example for muslims.”
Thanks for that excellent characterisation of me. In fact, it is a mis-characterisation, because you have not followed my argument closely enough. I knew this might happen, either because it is difficult to follow because I don’t write very well, or because you assume things about me which are plain wrong.
Honesty, loyalty and truthfulness all have their place; if he promised not to marry again, then he should not. If he lies about being married, then he is doing something wrong. A better husband would try to please his wife as much as possible, insofar as that is not haram, and this would make him a better Muslim.
I could go on, but I’m not sure if you’d listen, since you were paid so little attention the first time round. I just call things as I see them; I stand by the above statement, simply because I haven’t heard of a scholar who disagrees. Yes, I agree with you, he (husband marrying again) should tell his wife; in fact, ideally, he shouldn’t marry at all if it will hurt her feelings. But this has nothing to do with the il/legality of those actions. A husband who doesn’t tell his wife is a jerk, but he is not doing something which is haram in and of itself.
And before you make assumptions about me, I am not and have never been interested in marrying more than one wife.
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”A woman won’t marry a man (e.g.) if he wants two wives; this is her right. So a man with this intention has problems getting married, perhaps, and if he does engage in polygyny it brings problems.”
so I take it that your opinion is; that if women are so selfish as to not want to marry a man who, from the onset of marriage is not planning to devote himself to her, but rather give her some superficial affection, lie to her, and just use her, and plans to devalue her whenever he finds another hot prospect, it is fully justifiable to decieve these women? Because they are so selfish as to want to be loved and cherished?”
I wonder how literate you are, Aafke. You either haven’t paid attention or can’t follow what is a fairly simple argument; what I said is, in practice a man will find it prohibitively difficult to marry more than one wife, for the reasons I have stated above. I made it very clear that lying is haram, that it is always wrong for a man to lie to his wife or any woman like this. But, you obviously don’t care about what I am saying, since you have formed an opinion based on your misconceptions and suspicions about me, which even the most explicit statement (against your conclusions) can’t undercut.
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“Because as soon as you have multiple wives it is impossible to have this deep soul-connection a lot of humans hope and wish for.”
This is proof that historicity is the problem of our times. Until you can understand the historical nature of concepts such as ‘love’, you can’t pontificate about religious law in relation to it. We need an understanding of both.
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“Please give us your real name and a photo so we can warn the ”women of the world” against your evil intentions.”
Should I feel flattered that someone wants to warn the women of the world against my wiles?
Well, you clearly understood nothing of what I said, so it’s probably better if you don’t.
WM,
First off, I’m not a “bro”, I’m a sista’! Secondly,perhaps you confused me with someone who lives in Saudia.I’m from America and live in Indiana and not from a very big Muslim community so my appologies for not knowing too many Muslim men with 2 wives!
I never objected to it being Shari’ah to have a second wife, just wanted to know why the men who make a choice of it choose to do it in the secret of the dark and not in the light of the truth.If you in your “fictitious” situation married the African-American,would you tell her up front that it is not approved by your parents and give her a “choice” or would you marry her first and then come up with “excuses” why she couldn’t come to Sunday dinner at the in-laws?
Of course the women frown upon it even though it is legal,like I said just “hypothetically” put the shoe on the other foot and think how you would feel if your wife could marry more than 1 husband and come back to you and expect you to be happy to see her. Some how I doubt you’d be so eager to “share” her!
To my dear sister Aaafke,thanks! As always I look forward to your comments!
Task, tsk, Maya too has problems with the English language.
“Hence, your tirade against women who want to have a real one/one marriage deserving to be devalued is flawed.”
Ha! What a load of tripe. I said nothing of the sort, or even remotely implied it. I suggest you read it again, and pay attention to what I said. I certainly said nothing about women wanting one marriage being flawed! How silly that is of you to say, especially when my wife (insha Allah) is such a woman as that.
“When you love someone, you will do anything to prevent them from any form of harm.”
Self-evident truth. And not one I in any way contradicted in anything I said. Also, one I hope (insha Allah) to live up to in my own life.
“If you in your “fictitious” situation married the African-American,would you tell her up front that it is not approved by your parents and give her a “choice””
Yes, I would. In fact, given my differences with my parents this (not this particular scenario, but the parental disapproval element of it) is what I expect to happen in the future. However, I don’t intend on hiding anything from my parents. I thank God I don’t need their consent, because that would mean me marrying someone I would hate.
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“Of course the women frown upon it even though it is legal,like I said just “hypothetically” put the shoe on the other foot and think how you would feel if your wife could marry more than 1 husband and come back to you and expect you to be happy to see her.”
Exactly, you are 100% right. But I am talking about the il/legality of things. A better Muslim would obey his wife’s wishes as much as were halal-ly possible. Does I make more sense now?
Sorry, I didn’t realise you were a sister.
Sorry for syntax errors, I didn’t read over things again
WM,
LOL! Appology accepted! I know my “un-muslim” name sometimes confuses people! Also LOL! about needing the “parental approval” That same situation happened to my husband and his first wife. It was very difficult for both of them.
My only real point in my original comment was for these men to be honest with all parties involved and not to do it for selfish reasons. I think as human beings in general,no matter what the situation,if we put the shoe on the other foot for just a brief moment,the world could be a brighter place!
In closing,I know there are women who live their lives everyday as a 2nd,3rd,or 4th wife and they do it graciously but ,in all honesty with myself, I have to say I could not be one of those women!
“Also LOL! about needing the “parental approval” That same situation happened to my husband and his first wife. It was very difficult for both of them.”
Then pray for me, don’t laugh at me!
WM,
I pray for ALL of my brothers and sisters in Islam. And the ones who aren’t Muslim yet,I pray they will hear the word and accept it! : )
Peace&Blessings!
WM, chill dude. Don’t be surprised if, when discussing a sensitive subject like this, people tend to get a bit heated.
I’m perfectly willing to adjust the bad impression you did give me. It is so easy when typing on the internet to misunderstand each other.
However, upon re-reading your comment (and I do rather pride myself on my knowledge of the English language) I must say it still gives me the impression that you are of the opinion that as lying to wife #1, and perhaps #2 as well, is permissible by sharia law, then it can’t be so bad. (and I did get rather pissed about such a view) (excusé le mot)
Please correct me if that is the wrong impression.
You might consider that as three eloquent readers misunderstood you, you might need to refrase your thoughts.
You know, WM, I think that betraying the confidence of ones spouse is very evil. So I had the impression that you say:” as it isn’t so haraam according to law, it isn’t so bad in real life”. And I think most wives don’t care if it is considered haraam or not, they feel broken, hurt and betrayed. And they will never feel safe again. Causing mental anguish to what is supposed your trusting loving wife, should count much more than a cold legal assumption: ”It is not haraam, so it isn’t really bad”
I do get that your discourse is mainly aimed at the legality of the thing, while mine is about honesty, loyalty and truthfulness, and not causing another pain just to indulge ones own pleasure.
We maybe talking at cross purposes here.
My main point is, that on this subject, I don’t care about laws and scholars, only about truth and betrayal and selfisness and loyalty and honesty amongst human beings.
So peace, relax, and chill, and I am interested in what you think.
WM:
*This is proof that historicity is the problem of our times. Until you can understand the historical nature of concepts such as ‘love’, you can’t pontificate about religious law in relation to it. We need an understanding of both.*
What does ”historicity” mean?
This is another subject, but quite interesting: I have read the writings of people in many different ages, and humans feel very much the same over the centuries.
It is only the cultures that change.
I don’t believe anyone who posted here today disagreed with it being Shari’ah. It most certainly is Shari’ah.I think as Aafke said it’s about honesty,love,loyalty,security,fututre,and feelings from the womans point-of-view that get crushed in the decision the husband makes to take another wife. And especially when it’s not done in “secret” on the husbands part. As the lovely Miss Carol names this post:(Reflections from a Western Wife) So its from a womans point-of-view,not the husbands.Perhaps Carol knows of a Muslim man who has more than one wife and can give as an insight to his feelings on the matter.Not if it is Shari’ah or not,as we seem to have already established that here,but how it has made him “feel”. I know alot of men who really shy away from that word “feel/feelings” for one reason or another but it would be very interesting to hear it from the husband. Like I said before, I do know a few men who have more than one wife and though I don’t know them personally enough to ask such a question to them I do know my husband has said that one of them said to him that its alot of hard work,especially in America, and kinda gave the impression that if he had it to do again,it would have been alot less burdensome to just have one. I think also that is the point trying to be made in the Quraan..Just my opinion and how I perceive it as I read it.Peace to all!
Aafke said:
“WM: if done secretly and against earlier promisses it does fall under the meaning of the word ”infidelity” I have not yet heard of a first wife who felt joy on finding out about another secret marriage. Only betrayal: because that is just what it is”.
Don’t you think there is something terribly wrong with your statement, considering the fact that even the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam himself married other women without necessarily informing the previous wives?
This is always the problem when issues such as polygyny, that go against the “feelings” of most women, are being discussed. People utter things without thinking and realizing that we will be questioned about everything.
For this reason (because people, in this case mostly women are sinning and they are not even realizing it) I believe such delicate issues should be discussed in a class in light of the Qur’an AND Sunnah, not in light of what some (whether it is most or not) men do.
I’d like to see WM own up to a blogger account, instead of reveling in his passive aggressiveness under a cloak of anonymity.
Arrogance is not a virtue.
Tsk, tsk.
Marahm said:
“Yes, infidelity is in the nature of the man, but so is fidelity in the nature of the woman. That does not mean each has obey their natural impulses”.
I did not mean “infidelity” to be in mens nature. It is however in the nature of men to desire womEn, and Islam provides a solution which is halal marriage. Polygyny is not only to marry widows, old women etc, it is not only in favour of women, but men as well. Not all men are the same. Some have more desire, some less.Some men just can’t satisfy their sexual needs with one woman, so, instead of commiting zina, in this case marrying a second wife would be wajib on him. So the rulings shift according to circumstances.
And you’re right, we do not have to obey our natural impulses. So in light of your words it means
WOMANS NATURE= fidelity=easy to obey (natural impulse)
MANS NATURE=”desire for women”=difficult (not impossible) to obey (natural impulse).
Dalioness,
With all respect to your comments,though the Prophet (pbuh) may have not told previous wives of his intent to marry another, I’m sure his intentions were pure.However,the man in Carols post “obviously” did some things that hurt his wife deeply.I’m sure if there were phones in the day of the Prophet (pbuh) he would not have disrespected the current wife and the home they shared together while whispering sweet-nothings in anothers ear! I also think that while the Prophet (pbuh) didn’t “necessarily inform the other wife” he didn’t try to keep it a secret either.
I don’t doubt on the Day Of Judgement I will be questioned about this but unfortunately it’s the way I feel.Insh’Allah,my husband taking another wife,will never happen to me.However, if the wifes husband had married someone who was in need,such as a widow or someone with alot of kids to support who lost her husband to war,or someone who just accepted Islam and needed a strong Muslim man to help guide her or had a handicap,or there weren’t enough single men in her community to marry I might be able to see the “need” for this marriage but to just decide you “need” a younger wife doesn’t fly right with me and I don’t think the feelings of betrayal and disrespect are something I would want to sit around and subject myself or my children to.
I have to diagree that this needs to be discussed in a class in light of the Qur’an and the Sunnah. I don’t believe anyone here is disagreeing that it’s unlawful to remarry while married,we are just discussing our feelings on the subject.I guess if sharing our feelings is a sin we’ll all be in the hell fire together!
In closing,I have meant no disrespect to you or your comments.Peace&Blessings!
Good Morning Carol!
Look at the can of worms that opened while you were sleeping! Perhaps we need a milder post today so we can all recover! Love your blog!
When people say there is no obligation to inform wife #1 of wife #2 – I say that secret marriage is forbidden in Islam. Even if the brother marries wife #2 openly in her Muslim community, word is bound to get back to wife #1 and her community.
How does the brother explain his consistent absences? After all, he has to divide time fairly. And how does he explain having less money, etc. What if either wife has an emergency and needs to contact her husband? Eventually, there will be two (or three) sets of children.
The secret stuff is bound to cause fitnah eventually.
This is one of those posts when I prefer to simply sit back and let all of you comment and discuss. The one remark I will place is that most individuals (whether man or woman) who find themselves in a polygnous relationship are usually reticent to discuss it openly. They may among the closest of friends and family but that’s about it. The fact that this was shared and shared in order to help others and open eyes is very noble. Fingers should not be pointed nor should judgements be arbitrarily made for none of us are in the woman’s shoes or her husband’s shoes. But the dialogue and expression of views are quite enlightening.
Now in regards to getting a man’s point of view, while I know all would find that interesting, it is very unlikely to happen. In the rare cases a man may speak about having more than one wife, it will be extremely unlikely to be open let alone in a public venue such as a blog.
For a man to even speak openly about his multiple wives is viewed as disrespectful.
When we lived in the kingdom, my husband had a friend who was being forced by his family to take a second wife. He was going through hell. He loved his wife, they had four small children, and it was hard enough. His family had already chosen another bride for him, and he felt such pressure. He married the second wife, to keep his family happy, and lost his job, because he didn’t tell them he was taking a vacation/honeymoon. When he came back to discover he had lost his job he said “but I had to get married!” which in his eyes, covered the situation. It didn’t. But we learned how much pressure a family could exert.
As salamu alaykum Tina,
I wrote a reply but then accidentally lost it before I could post, so I will take that as a sign that I need to shut up. LOL.But I am woman so I have say a few, hehe.
Anyway, yes I understand feelings were being shared here, but I wanted to cool us all a bit with the shari’ah aspect of it without focusing so much on peoples actions, while having in mind that as Muslims we should be careful how we talk about these topics especially in public, if you know what I mean? wink
People do sin the most by uttering things when in an emotional state of mind, that is our nature, but there are times when we need to check ourselves for sure. And Tina I have feelings too, I am a woman just like you, but I have seen way to many blogs where these things turn sour, so we are responsible for taming our feelings a bit when talking about anything that has something to do or comes close to the law of Allah.I am not saying that any of you are disagreeing with shari’ah, I have no proof for that,but I do disagree with the “way” feelings are being discussed. I can say that it is also from Islam not to talk about someone who cannot be there to defend himself, no matter what things look like to us we do not have his side of the story and this is his right in Islam anyway.These are my feelings, will anyone care? I’m sure not. So either way you look at it, it is really not a win-win situation.
Well this comment is nowhere near as diplomatic as the first one I wrote, so I will cut it short (which I am sure many are looking forward to, smile).
No disrespect intended towards you either sister (nor anyone else), we all have our views and opinions.
“I must say it still gives me the impression that you are of the opinion that as lying to wife #1, and perhaps #2 as well, is permissible by sharia law”
No no no no no no!
Maya: it is not arrogance to be frustrated when someone misconstrues the hell out of your words!
I wonder how many males other than WM dare venture into this heated debate.
Any woman marrying a Muslim man should bear in mind that somewhere down the line, there is a chance he will present a second wife (if not more).
No matter what promises he makes, no matter how much in love they are, no matter what their marital conditions. One can never know what will happen 10, 20 or 30 years down the line or the changes in a marital relationship that lead a man to think of another woman.
Regardless of the altruistic philosophy of Islam in allowing polygyny to take place, the reasoning behind it and the stipulations governing it, one should never forget that it is a patriarchal system that supports males and their rights first and foremost.
Of course a man would choose a younger wife and preferably a virgin, rather than marry a divorced, or widowed older woman! Who are we kidding…
Should women feel bitter about all this?
No. But they should prepare themselves for possibilities and think about what is and is not acceptable for them and take steps to protect their own interests to be on the safe side always.
On a side note, I have always found it interesting how some Arab women would turn a blind eye to their husband’s infidelities yet be vehemently against the notion of him taking a second wife (which would be seen as a mark on her dignity and worth as well as sharing in the inheritance)
“But they should prepare themselves for possibilities and think about what is and is not acceptable for them and take steps to protect their own interests to be on the safe side always.”
i.e. write a clause about it in the pre-nuptual contract.
–
“it is a patriarchal system”
Frankly, so what? I’m assuming you are a Muslim, in which case your understanding of good and evil come from God, and not from bourgeois white women (=feminism). If Islam ratifies patriarchy, then you should accept it (that is an IF).
“word is bound to get back to wife #1 and her community.”
Yup, because one of the conditions of marriage is making it ‘known’. However, I heard of a man who married a wife in Malaysia (long business trips, so decided to marry etc), which his wife in Lebanon didn’t hear about until he told her.
“the altruistic philosophy of Islam in allowing polygyny”
Why should marriage (number deux) be an act of charity? That is a good deed, to raise someone out of the mire, so to speak, but how can you impose this on a Muslim? Why can marriage #1 be done for whatever reason, but #2 can’t? Especially, where is the stipulation that marriage #2 has this pre-condition? It does not exist, as far as I am aware.
The funniest thing is that women are those most against ‘charitable’ marriages- with their tongues they agree it is a noble deed, but they would bawl if their husband did it! Or am I wrong? Would all women here be 100% fine if hubby married an elderly spinster?
WM said:
“The funniest thing is that women are those most against ‘charitable’ marriages- with their tongues they agree it is a noble deed, but they would bawl if their husband did it! Or am I wrong? Would all women here be 100% fine if hubby married an elderly spinster?’
Brother you do have a point there. I am speaking from a personal experience, it would not matter to me if he wants to marry older, younger, etc, the point is, he is giving his love to someone else (not necessarily taking any away from the first wife), and this is what most women find difficult to handle.It is normal that no man wil marry a woman regardless how much help she may need if in his mind she is unattractive, and it is the wrong assumption that the first wife is the queen bee (even if her husband makes her feel that way because surely, he will attempt to make the rest of his wives feel the same way, provided he is a good man, which still hurts the woman, or at least, it would still hurt me, hehe).
Carol: *For a man to even speak openly about his multiple wives is viewed as disrespectful.*
But apparently not so disrespectful that the father of ”Saudi girl” didn’t mind bragging about it according to her brothers.
You put up a story about deceit? naturally I condemn the man. Or I would need to have the story seriously elaborated by the miraculous reason which makes such an act not to be an act of betrayal. And in this case my imagination is not enough
Da Lioness; Please don’t be angry but you give me the creeps: you sound like a christian: all this suffering for the sake of Allah, and submitting and sinning. I think that if one doesn’t know one is something that might be a sin then I am quite sure God wouldn’t count it.
And it is a great relief that God is Compasionnate and Merciful. Even when humans aren’t
WM: The Quran allows polygeny under certain conditions. If the Sharia allows it for the most trivial and selfish reasons then perhaps the sharia is wrong.
“it is a patriarchal system”
The culture is patriarchal, the Quran maintains men and women are equal:
”And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: “Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of God, and from His presence is the best of rewards.” 3-195 (translation Yusuf Ali, according to my arabic speaking friends one of the best translations)
So it is allowable for men to marry up to 4 wifes, when:
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. (4-4)
“If you fear lest you may not be perfectly equitable in treating more than one wife, then you shall be content with one.” (4:3)
“You cannot be equitable in a polygamous relationship, no matter how hard you try.” (4:129)
So I read that as that really men cannot marry more than one woman, and certainly not for just lust. And never ever just because they’ve had enough of wife#1 and love another more.
And neither if it is harmful to the woman they already have married. i’m not even talking about decieving and lying about it.
And it is not only ”bourgouis white feminist women” who have an issue with this form of infidelity: If you want to read the thoughts of an arab woman about this issue, I post this link (with her permission)
http://achelois.wordpress.com/2007/09/04/the-secret-%e2%80%93-why-i-hate-it/
Just a few lines if you can’t be bothered to follow the link:
(but if you really want to know what polyginy does to wifes, children and grand-children read the link)
” And so I hate it. I hate polygamy. I hate lies men tell. I hate deception. I can never tell a lie or deceive anyone even if I had my throat under a knife. I could never dream of hurting the heart given to me in love. I could never hurt my children. I cannot bear to see a single tear in the eyes of the man whom I call my Darling Husband.
Keep my mother for a week and you will know what infidelity can do even after fifty years. Come back and sermonize then. Sermonize with a bleeding heart and I will listen. Tell me the benefits of polygamy when the lives and minds of four innocent children are changed for ever and I will listen. Stand at the bedside of a woman who is left in a cold bed to weep when her husband is warming another woman’s bed and I will listen. Look at a child’s face when his father leaves home to spend the weekend with his new son and sermonize. I will listen. Experience what a woman feels when her co-wife gives birth to a child her Darling Husband has fathered and I will listen. ”
Isn’t it so that he who saves only one life saves mankind? What about hurting people into the core of their being? I cannot understand how there is so much that is good and true in Islam, and people still find ways to twist it so they can gratify their cheap lust, no matter how many people are hurt in the process.
Okay, here is my two cents. I guess there should be another male voice here.
Having more than one wife, of course, is halal. If you have to use deception, lies and deceit to get and maintain the second wife then any baraka that could be gained out of the situation is lost.
We must look to the example set by the Prophet of Allah (PBUH). He took for his first wife a woman in a higher position of power than him, a woman who made more money than he did, and a woman who was 20 years older than he was.
This is one example of the Prophet (PBUH) that those who claim to want to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet choose to ignore. Another is the fact that every woman, with the exception of Aisha, was divorced and often with children. This is another example of the Prophet that those who take second wives choose to ignore.
I know there are not statistics kept on the issue, but I’d wonder how many men who take second, third or fourth wives, using the Sunnah and Shar’ia as examples, pick the sort of women that he did? If they dont, I’d like to know why.
If the Prophet of God could take a divorced or widowed woman with children as a wife, why does this usually not happen with those who in modern times take an extra wife? I know it is ancedotal evidence, but in my experience the additional wives usually do not meet the example of the prophet, and in many cases the men will actually take a young virgin from her family outside of the country where they come from rather than pick a widow or a divorcee in the country of their origin.
In the American Muslim convert community, of which I am a part, often the taking of multiple wives is less about following the example of the Prophet and more about a continuation of a way of life that exisisted for the person before they converted, only this time using an Islamic justification for their actions. More often than not these brothers do not support their first wife, let alone the second or third ones. They are supported by the state and the brother refuses to “work for the kuffar” but is more than happy to have his wives supported by the state, Section 8 housing, WIC and Food Stamps. Nevermind these are paid for by the “kuffar”.
This is a whole different subject and the one we are on here is about multiple wives outside the USA and is almost a completely different subject and topic than what we are talking about here.
Once again, as is so sadly common in the Muslim world today, Muslims miss the forest for the trees. They can look to the literal example of the Prophet, yet they miss the REASONS WHY he did something.
He didnt take another wife because he was bored or because he wanted to impress friends, he took them so he could help support them and their children, he took them to cement alliances and help forge ties and peace between peoples.
Yes, a man can take more than one wife, but the vast majority who choose to do so do not follow the Prophets example and I fear do so for reasons that would not be justified by the Sunnah.
God knows best!
AbuSinan,
Well said! I totally agree with you. Speaking for myself only, I think if more brothers used the Prohets(pbuh) example in choosing another wife then more of us sisters would not have a problem with it. I think I could actually deal with the idea of a second wife and be okay with it but don’t wait ’til I’m older and possibly having female issues at the time and bring in some 20 something hot muslimah and tell me you’re doin it for Allah! PLEEEAAAASSSEEE!!!! We all know what she’s for!!!! Thanks for your male opinion of it! And WM’s too. Sorry that we ran you off and made you feel like you inconvenienced us.Peace&Blessings to all!
Most Muslim societies have an abundence of divorcees and widows exactly because the culture is against men marrying women in these situations. Another example of how so often culture is at odds with Islam.
So the brothers, if they feel a need to take a second wife, should look to disadvatanged women in their own country and not run to Morrocco, Egypt, Yemen and places like this where basically they BUY a young girl and take her from her family.
dalioness,
I don’t know where you get your figures regarding polygyny and how happy/unhappy women are with it. I seriously doubt that we are talking about a 50/50 factor though.
The other issue I have with your respone is that you said that “there are sadly many men who abuse the concept of polygyny, most of the time unintentionally, not realizing they are causing more harm then good.” I don’t think these men’s abuse is unintentional or that they don’t realize they are causing great harm. I think most of them know and don’t care.
And lastly, I am sick of hearing this stupid comparison with non-Muslim men having affairs. We are not non-Muslims and we should be aspiring to better marriages and a greater degree of goodness.
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
As an uninformed American male, I wonder what percentage of men in Muslim countries take a second wife. How could a woman ever feel safe? How could she ever feel happy? She needs to get married to have children, but marriage is likely to lead to pain. In America, broken marriages are very common, so the same question could be asked here. Why get married? Marriage only leads to pain.
OK, I have to say something about WM. First of all, I don’t think he is passive-agressive; and I certainly don’t think that applies here. There is no doubt that I don’t agree with him on everything but here he is writing in a very straightforward manner. It is clear that the shariah does NOT require a man to inform his wife of remarrying (and that is what he stated). It also clear that a man who lies of sneaks is not a good man and is doing something that will displease Allah AND his wives (and WM also stated that).
Now many of us would hate polygyny for ourselves (I have been in it and I hate it for myself — never agin, insha’Allah). And we also admit that we know that the traditional reading of Islam allows it with very few caveats. Some say that it should only be in times of war to widows and orphans but overwhelmingly the so-called scholars say that the only requirement is that the many treat them fairly and divide his time equally. Being able to afford 2 wives is a relative issue and many survive on having their wives collect welfare so they can have their “rights” to polygyny.
WM is simply discussing the existence of polygyny in Muslim life and frankly, I know that what he is saying is true according to the Shariah and traditional implementation of Islam. Without ijtihad this is what we must accept as the dominant opinion.
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
dalioness,
Are you Salafi? I’ve read these same standard issue remarks many times from those who profess to be Salafi…..
People don’t get married thinking that their spouse will cheat, have a mistress, take on a second wife. Saying that women shouldn’t feel safe marrying a Muslim man is bull, IMHO, that’s just saying that women shouldn’t feel safe in any relationship. Yes, Muslim men have “shari’ah” to cite, BUT, that’s not the reason Muslim men take second wives. So yeah don’t marry any man if you’re worried about what might/could happen years down the line.
Aafke said:
“Da Lioness; Please don’t be angry but you give me the creeps: you sound like a christian: all this suffering for the sake of Allah, and submitting and sinning. I think that if one doesn’t know one is something that might be a sin then I am quite sure God wouldn’t count it.
And it is a great relief that God is Compasionnate and Merciful. Even when humans aren’t”
La hawla wa la quwwata illa billah. I think my words are clear enough, but yet again, most people do not seek to truly understand what is being said. Anyone who knows enough about this deen, the history of Muslims, the seerah of rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and his countless ahadeeth on rewards for patience and suffering in this world for the sake of Allah would have understood what my words meant. Aafke, I do not in any way say a woman SHOULD suffer like this. Many people suffer in this world Aafke, be it hunger, desease, loss of a loved one, betrayal, deceit, etc. You obviously overlooked that I said that the woman in the article has the right of khula because her husband broke her agreement. Aafke, there are things in life we suffer from unwillingly because it is not in our control, and there are things we suffer from willingly because we have the power to change them. In this case the wife did not excercise her right to change her situation for the reasons mentioned in the article, YET she STILL has the power in my belief which I am entitled to.
Aafke, let me give you an example if you will allow:
A dear friend of mine was abused physically and emotionally by her husband for thirteen years. My friend is quite religious where her husband is not so religious (obviously). yet, no one knew of her troubles, not her family nor friends. Why? because she talked well about her husband, she praised him for all of the good things he does for and her and the family, and because she made dua every day for her husband that Allah may guide him. She stuck with him because she knew she was the only person that could expose him to Islam as it is, as he did not socialize much with good practicing Muslims. She put her trust in Allah and she did see positive results after a while. He stopped beating her after a while, started praying regularly, became a better husband. After a while he changed to his old self again, at which point she could not take any more so she left. She suffered, yet she chose to stick by him FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH. I think we all need to learn what “for the sake of Allah” truly means. And we all need to learn what suffering means in Islam Aafke.
As for submitting, than I am sure you know that the word Islam itself means to submit, it does mean to rebel.So I am not sure what your problem is with submitting.
As for sinning, Allah Himself gives much importance to this, so again, I am not sure what your problem is.
As for one not knowing one is something therefor Allah would not count it, the issue is not so black and white.
Allah Himself says that what we utter is recorded. Also, rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said that that we need to safeguard our tongues. There are plenty of ahadeeth on this issue, yet I have a feeling that a lot of people like to pick and choose which ahadeeth to follow (provided they are sahih of course).
And yes, Allah is Most Merciful and Compassionate, however He also punishes, Allah Himself says that. You say I sound like a Christian, yet I could say the same about you, since it is the christians that overlook the fact that not only is He Forgiving and Merciful, but He also holds us accountable and punishes whomever He wishes to punish. Yet I won’t liken you to a christian merely because of words since that would be transgression, and since your right upon me is that I assume the best in your words.
Although Abu Sinan and I have disagreed in the past, I have to second almost everything he said. Masha’Allah.
Yet, I personally still do not think that I would be fine with having a co-wife who was a widow, divorced with children, etc. I am not saying I would totally not accept it, but emotionally it would still be difficult for me. I am not saying could not be happy ABSOLUTELY, but I am not sure how I would handle the process that first wives go before acceptance and finding peace with it (such as depression, hurt feelings, feeling unattractive, not loved etc). Even when the husband is upfront and honest, continues to express his love for her (with actions not merely words) and does everything to make her feel loved, I believe the wife is still going to experience hurt and the feeling of not being “enough’ for him.These are natural feelings no matter the situation provided she loves him deeply. (Perhaps because I have never been married and do not know what it is like to want your husband to be gone sometimes, LOL, as I hear some women say they would be relieved from the cooking, cleaning, looking good every day etc if their husband took another wife, hehe). What if he marries a YOUNG widow, a YOUNG divorcee with children? And attractive on top of it?
Plus look at Aisha ra, she was jealous of Khadija although she never even met her, but knew of her husbands love for her. She was jealous of some of her co-wives although the Prophet saws was a loving husband and treated her well.
I guess all women are not the same, same goes for men.
I wanted to add something I remembered. Some of my friends husbands’ friends express the desire to marry another a second wife because, although they love their wives, (examples follow)
1. their wives do not provide good conversation and emotional support
2. their wives are not making THEM feel loved
3. they would marry a woman for good companionship provided she is ok with not being sexually intimate
I thought this was interesting, as it seems not all men marry second wives merely for the sexual pleasure.
dalioness, Thank you for explaining.
Dalioness,
Why would a second wife have to be okay with not being sexually intimate? It is a requirement that the husband must meet all of his wives’ sexual needs. If he is not willing to do so then he cannot marry a second wife, not to mention it is grounds for divorce.
Sounds like what you are describing to me is a dysfunctional first marriage. It would be HIGHLY unwise to take a second wife if you cannot make things work with the first.
If the wife does not provide good emotional support then there is an issue in the relationship. The way to solve it is NOT to take a second wife, rather to address the issues with the relationship itself.
If the husband is not feeling loved, it might have NOTHING to do with the wife in the first place. It might be an issue HE has, so to bring another woman into it is not going to solve anything, rather it is going to compound things.
Sister, it seems clear that what you describe is nothing more than a failed marriage. I guess the one requirement the second wife would not have to fulfill is sex, so that means the first marriage is basically a loveless relationship where sex is the only thing keeping them together.
These people do not need a new wife to infect with their issues, they need to sit down with a sheik or a counselor and sort out their issues. It would be haram to bring an unsuspecting women into this dysfunctional circle.
I hope that WM continues to “lurk” and will choose again to respond. We may not all agree with each other but there is no doubt we are learning from one another’s experiences and views. And….most of the time, all comments are in a respectful manner to one another, even when having different points of view.
When a man has more than one wife to me there is so much more to consider besides that “it is halal” under Islam. Let’s face it, many men will take another wife saying it is halal for them to do so but not meeting the requirements of having multiple wives as set forth in the Quran.
On a practical note and speaking very frankly as a woman, I am not in favor of polygamy and the few thoughts that come to my mind about the issue include:
The marriage is no longer a partnership but a triangle. A man may think or try to keep the relationships separate but come on…be real…we all will grow old when our needs and conditions change. I see how my parents and my grandparents had such strong beautiful bonds and where there for each other in the good and bad times. When my grandfather became ill in his elder years, my grandmother was his devoted nurse. What happens when that equation is a triangle? Who takes care of whom?
And there is the sexual aspect as well. I cannot imagine a woman wanting to be intimate with a man knowing he has been intimate with someone else for emotional and health reasons. I would see that as a betrayal of the most intimate gift a husband and wife can give to one another. After all, the woman is expected to be faithful to the man so should not the same be expected of the man? I make my statement in the way I did keeping in mind the confines of the muslim culture and particularly the Saudi culture which would make it not only very difficult but extreme punishment for a woman to have any kind of intimate experience except with a husband.
Yet another aspect are the children. I think it is easier to have a divorce rather than children who are confused or feel torn loyalties or resentment.
If someone says they have taken another wife because the first wife does not stimulate them or they have nothing in common, then be merciful and let her go so she can find happiness with another. Why have her held in limbo?
Just a few of my thoughts as I contemplate this sensitive topic.
Abu Sinan,
I am quite sure I did not express my agreement with the examples I forth. I merely gave examples of how it is NOT always about seeking sexual pleasure with the second wife. I agree with remarrying not being the solution to fix the first marriage, yet sometimes both parties do not wish the divorce…
That said, what if the second wife can not or prefers not to be sexually intimate and they both agree to that in the marital contract? I am only asking if you think this would be acceptable, if they both agree and it makes both of them happy.
Of course I continue to lurk
It’s probable that we wouldn’t be having this conversation if it was taking place 1400 years ago (or even much more recently than that), because polygyny was normalised by that society. Nowadays many or most Muslims, I guess (whatever their view of its legality), view it as some sort of unmitigated social evil, unless it is done for charitable reasons. They take it as a self-evident truth that one woman is made for one man etc; a whole ideology has been built up around monogamy. Love is basically a concept (though there is a lot more to it…), with a history that can be analysed. ‘Romantic love’ (I am referring to a specific historical concept, not to the love that exists, or should exist, between husband and wife) is not, as most people imagine, some sort of universal truth or absolute value that has and always will exist, and is evident in every human society. The existence of ‘romantic love’ presupposes a whole set of other intellectual/social/economic developments. A Marxist might say something like; this kind of love is redolent of bourgeois individualism, with the emphasis it places on choice/consent and a particular form of sensibility, on the agency of both parties etc.
That is why the one thing that is ‘universal’ (in this particular dispensation, Muhammad- sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam- being the last prophet) is the law, which must always be upheld in spite of the conditions of particular times and places. Of course, there is a lot of interaction between these things, the law is not absolute (e.g. eating pork in cases of necessity), and it falls on the scholars to make the distinction between what is an essential part of this religion and what belonged specifically to 7th century Arabian society. There is a lot to be said about this…I have rambled all over the place as usual.
But basically I agree with what Abu Sinan, Dalioness and I guess you too are saying (in terms of personal preference).
Carol,
Of course there is more to consider than mere permissibility. I do not believe anyone here denied that for a second. BUT when we talk about it it has to be limited to Qur’an AND Sunnah, we should not generalize, because here is what happens when we do ( just one example):
“After all, the woman is expected to be faithful to the man so should not the same be expected of the man? I make my statement in the way I did keeping in mind the confines of the muslim culture and particularly the Saudi culture which would make it not only very difficult but extreme punishment for a woman to have any kind of intimate experience except with a husband.”
Here’s the thing: Islam can not be bent (no need for it at all) to fit western views. Polygyny in Islam can certainly not be equated with infidelity. So how do we really think of our prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam in light of this theory? Does it exclude him and on what grounds? This is the issue with such general statements, because they imply fault with Islam instead of people who make mistakes. I do not mean any disrespect Carol, but Islam is not Saudi culture, western culture etc, it is a religion, a complete and perfect way of life, because Allah chose it for us. As Muslims we respect culture insofar it does not contradict the principles of Islam (yes I am aware of Saudi….but here we are talking about polygyny which is a part of the deen).
In other words, there is no need to make statements in light of a particular culture, our statements, acceptances and rejections really should be in light of Islam.
No offence is meant with my words and everyone here has their own opinion anyway, and i do not seek to change it nor impose mine on others, BUT when it comes down to speaking about anything that is from Islam in public such as this blog (and Islam is sacred to me), I always try to keep in mind insha’Allah that we are either representing/clarifying or misrepresenting Islam. I want to represent it regardless of my (or anyone elses) personal preferences because it is my duty and I am proud of everything our prophet was sent with,although many would probably disagree that that is what I am doing, but I don’t get bothered with opinions anyway so…
Carol, sometimes it is hard not to wonder, are you posting articles such as this one to discuss the content of the article or aspects of our religion? I hope you don’t mind my asking.
For me personally, polygyny isn’t an option, not only because it would feel very awkward, but because a wife can’t be expected to like it; it is way too much hassle (staying in two different homes?), way too expensive, and the benefits simply don’t outweigh the costs (material and otherwise). For some of these reasons polygyny has always been practiced by a minority of the ummah, even when polygyny was 100% culturally acceptable. I would be interested in some figures- from the little I’ve read, even within one country the ‘rate’ of polygyny can vary massively, ‘cultural’ reasons can be as little or as much of a prohibiting factor as we want.
“In other words, there is no need to make statements in light of a particular culture, our statements, acceptances and rejections really should be in light of Islam.”
I think people are just sharing their own views on polygynous marriage, what their experience of it is etc, rather than its il/legality.
Dalioness,
The problem with the example you gave is that it is exactly these types that SHOULD NOT be getting married again. They most certainly will not be able to fulfill the Qur’anic and Sunnah requirements for plural marriage. The case you brought up is a text book case of a failed marriage and will most certainly lead to a second failed marriage. Divorce is not always an indicator of a failed marriage. It is an all too common event where people should get divorced, but do not do so for a variety of resons, usually ones that are not valid, but are done so out of financial reasons, family reasons or the like.
You ask if sex can be “opted out” in a marriage contract. I don’t think so……….without consumation, there is no marriage, so there must be at least one occasion of sex. What you are talking about is, essentially, bringing in another female into a dysfunctional situation. I doubt if such an arrangement would make anyone happy.
WM,
The conditions that made plural marriage “normalised” 1400 years ago, for the most part do not exist anymore. If you look at the reasons why the practice was normal back then you’ll find more often than not they have little or no role in today’s world and are not the reasons why most Muslim men take second or more wives in today’s world.
My wife is from Saudi and the practice is still pretty strong there. She has members of her family who had plural wives, including both of her grandfathers. If you take a look at the reasons why people choose to take a second wife in today’s world you will find it has little to do with supporting a divorced woman and her children, or a widowed woman and her children, or cementing alliances between feuding tribes. The instances where this is the case are probably 1 in 100. The rest of the time it is an older man taking a younger wife, often from a foreign country with a nice $1000 in cash to purchase her from her family who are dirty poor. Other times it is because the man refuses to divorce his first wife because if he does it will cost him tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars because of their marriage contract. It is easier to support the first wife and take a second wife.
I agree with upholding what the Prophet did, but I also think it needs to be done with his reasoning in mind. Mohammed did not take additional wives because he was too cheap to give another of his wives a divorce, nor did he travel to far oof lands and buy young virginal women from their famlies using their hunger as a tool to get what he wanted.
In response to Dalioness, as stated in the post, the article was posted at the request and permission of a first wife who felt that if perhaps her story was presented it would help others understand whether in a similar position or not.
“The conditions that made plural marriage “normalised” 1400 years ago, for the most part do not exist anymore.”
Simply not true. But even if it was, you still wouldn’t have the authority to abrogate the shari`ah (not saying that you are btw). I’d ask you to take a look at the plural marriages of the sahaba to substantiate your claim- it would fall on its face. Unless, of course, you want to argue that the sahaba ‘got it wrong’ too. Your arguments, which don’t even have the virtue of originality, find their origin in the shift of the global power dynamic away from Muslim states/empires etc. In other words, have a little crust and you’ll be fine insha Allah.
The sahaba didn’t differentiate between the first and the second marriage, whereas some of us do. The first marriage is not necessarily an act of charity, nor is the second (etc).
It is hilarious to read the reflections of a particular 19th Century Muslim who, on reading the Qur’an, found a blueprint for the morality of Victorian England. Today, we have people reading UN Charters into the Qur’an. As someone interested in the history of ideas I can’t help but laugh at them, since it’s obvious that what produces their interpretations is nothing other than their silly prejudices. The anachronisms are shocking, the moral cowardice is even worse, their integrity simply doesn’t exist.
WM,
AsallamAlaikum! Welcome back, good too see you here! : )
Carol ‘invited’ me back- this is all her fault
WM,
LOL! I’m not laughing at you honest! You could have politely let her down,so it’s not all her fault! Welcome to the jungle! You never no who is ready to attack!LOL!
Ehm, I thought when I read your (many) posts, WM, that American-bedu was a bit to encouraging!
Welcome back! I have thought of something with inflammatory possibilities to post but have a splitting headache, and have to finish my yearly accounts.
Yes, it’s all her fault, and how energizing for all of us! I’m going to stir the pot.
Carol also said this best– one husband plus one wife equals a partnership. The addition of another wife makes it a triangle. So what’s wrong with a triangle, some of you may ask? Triangles can be made with all three angles (and sides) equal.
Well, let’s look at what each side contributes. Both man and Wife #1 give 100% of their work efforts and sexual fidelity to each other, sometimes for years, and they build a home together.
Enter Wife #2, who generally knows what she’s in for and accepts it. She, too, gives 100% of her work efforts and sexual fidelity to the husband, knowing (most of the time) and agreeing that she will get only 50% of him in return.
The husband now gives 50% of himself to each wife, and each wife gives 100% to the husband, and the husband now gets 200% of marital benefits and responsibilities. He can meet the responsibilties but he cannot possibly give 100% to each wife. It’s not possble. All he can do is what is required —that he treat each equal to the other.
Wife #1 is suddenly deprived of half of her life’s goods and services from the husband, if we can look at it bluntly. I assume that both marriages are made according to Islamic requirements.
Halal? Of course. Fair? Sure– it’s done according to Islam.
However, the second marriage doubles the profits of the husband at the expense of Wife #1, with respect to any and every parameter that a spouse can rightfully seek from (or give to) a mate.
I think this disparity is what is at the bottom of the vehement dislike of polygyny that most of us have expressed. Let’s face it, it’s not about Islam, widows, wars or any of the other conditions that may exist even today. It’s about our personal sense of what we have to give and what we need to get.
Marahm,
I like the way you phrased your comment and I’m in your court!
I may be stirring the pot up a bit more here, but I do know there are male readers (Saudi, Muslim or not….) and YOUR views would also be welcomed. This is not in any way meant to incite attacks or arguments but to hear the persectives and views.
There are some narrations that say that Sulayman (as) had a hundred or even more wives (wives, concubines etc)- my question is, what do you call the resulting love-polygon?
“However, the second marriage doubles the profits of the husband at the expense of Wife #1, with respect to any and every parameter that a spouse can rightfully seek from (or give to) a mate.”
You didn’t mention that it doubles everything a man gets from one wife…the expenses, the nagging, the arguments, the headache
And that last comment WM, is SO true!
In fact, I think the doubled results of lifes “less than pleassant moments” is why so many men do not handle polygyny fairly. I know that my own husband succumbed to his own nafs too much and would simply go to the other wife if one irritated him, rather than stick it out and try to work out the issues. It is not uncommon for a man with multiple wives to play one off against the other for his own benefit. And surely that is not the example of the Prophet (saw).
It is my first hand experience that the reasoning behind plural marriage at the time of the Prophet and what is used to justify them now are completely different.
I wish someone would do a study on men who have more than one wife. I have known several and met a lot more. None of them had conditions that were anything near to those of the Prophet. They didn’t take a divorced or widowed woman with children, they didn’t take the lady to cement an agreement with another tribe. More often than not now at days a second or subsequent wife is taken as a sign of wealth, or if you just got tired of number 1, 2 or 3.
I didn’t fail to notice that you provided no proof with your statement. Are you claiming that the Prophet, or his companions, got married to show off their wealth? Did they get married because they were bored of the first wife but too cheap to pay off what they had agreed to in the marriage contract with the first wife? If that is what you think then you certainly have a different idea of the Prophet and his companions than I do.
The FACT is there are probably only a few places where the day to day conditions warrant plural marriages in today’s world, Iraq, Sudan, Bosnia, Chechnya and Palestine would be amoungst those. Oddly enough, however, plural marriages in these locations are not as common as they are in places which would have much lower reasons for legitimate plural marriages, principally speaking, the Gulf.
I can certainly agree with you when you state “You didn’t mention that it doubles everything a man gets from one wife…the expenses, the nagging, the arguments, the headache”
My wife is almost more than I can handle now, lol. Who ever said that Arab women were submissive? The Arab women I have met in my life are almost the exact opposite of the stereotype of them here in the West.
I think it is very hard, next to impossible, to treat multiple wives and the children from these wives fairly. That is why, aside from the justification aspect of the issue, I do not think it is a good idea in most cases. This is not to say that I deny that it is halal when all of the conditions are met, I just think it is next to impossible to meet all of the conditions.
Hello All, Wow…go out of town for a few days and miss all of this chit chat! : ) I have witnessed many (painful) cases of multiple wives firsthand in Jeddah with close friends….and what burns my butt is when a Saudi man, who married a western woman, does this!….especially after promising that their ‘love marriage’ would be the only one. He shouldn’t go and marry more and have more kids without informing the first…..but he does. What I see many of you missing is also the financial burden for the western woman. Many of these women have lived in small apartments and done without for many years so that they could have a bountiful retirement together. Many have put their own money into the property and furniture in the house, and they have given their money freely to their children for clothes, toys, etc. She certainly didn’t do this so that her husband could bring more people into the relationship and put a financial burden on them. If a woman gives her husband or family a substantial amount of money, she should have him sign something. Because if he dies, and some other woman claims that she is also married to him, the first wife can at least get her money back before the estate is finalized. She will even get paid back before the kids are given their money.
Miriam Mac,
The other side of that story is the Arab man who marries a Western 2nd wife assuming he will never have to support her since she is used to working outside her home, working in her home, and raising the kids. They would never treat an Arab woman that way, as they know her family would intervene, but the Western convert is a perfect fool for him when it comes to her rights and what she will do for love. I’ve been there and my Mama didn’t raise no fools.
Peacefulmuslimah,
You are so right. Actually, I have heard cases of poor Saudi men marrying a ‘working’ woman (or two) to help him afford the others. Some women, unfortunately, are so desperate to be married, that they will agree to just about anything….especially as they get older and are running out of time to have children.
My MIL used to tell me that she had women knocking on the her gate, years ago, asking if she would be willing to share her husband! There are enough women that are fine with polygamy….so let these women marry the men that also want many wives. Right? I mean, the solution is so simple, isn’t it? They need to start a club online….perhaps we should find someone who is good at starting groups to get them started. : ) Perhaps they already have one….not sure. Anyone?
Interesting how some people will use Islamic guidlines in one part of their life and reject it in others.
Yes, Islam allows you to have up to four wives, but it also requires the man to support them all. The woman is under no obligation to support herself and it doesnt matter where she comes from. It is nothing more than hypocrisy to use Islam to justify one set of your actions based on an assumption that is unIslamic.
I have seen where men will take multiple wives and then force all of them to live in a situation that is not far from poverty, whereas he could have supported a single wife and their children fine. He’d rather him, his wives and their children live in poverty just so he can have that nice young girl he bought from her father in Morocco for $500.
Miriam,
It is my experience that most women that are “fine with polygamy” are the very types that most of these guys do not want. They are older, divorced or widowed women with children. You’d be hard pressed to find a single young, well educated woman in the Gulf or elsewhere that would accept such a situation.
Since these guys dont usually want a divorced or widowed woman, with the cultural issues that has, they travel to places where they can use their wealth to get families to part with their young, unmarried daughters.
Again, if these guys insist on taking multiple wives they should use the example of the Prophet when looking for them and certainly live up to the promises they made to their first wife and uphold their duty towards her and their children.
“Are you claiming that the Prophet, or his companions, got married to show off their wealth?”
Nope. But I hope no-one does, since that isn’t a noble kinda thing to do.
“Did they get married because they were bored of the first wife but too cheap to pay off what they had agreed to in the marriage contract with the first wife?”
Nope. Look, bro, there are a zillion and one reasons people marry more than one wife, and there are plenty that are valid beyond ‘I want to look after a spinster’. We could go through them one by one, if you’d like. People marry (I’m not talking about polygyny here) for loads of reasons, and there is absolutely no reason to distinguish between marriage #1 and marriage #2, besides some silly cultural-historical prejudice that people have difficulty giving up. Some men marry a woman for wealth, ‘family’, looks- some for piety. And marriage in itself is a good thing, it does not need to be an act of charity to an old lady for it to be rewarded.
As for the stuff you say about maintenance, that is a given, but it isn’t relevant. You say that polygyny is somehow ‘wrong’ if it isn’t some kind of charity, only, nowhere is it stated that it is. Please, tell me about the sahaba who married more than once. Can you?
And the reason that I brought up that spineless ‘Victorian’ was because that’s who your arguments are taken from, though you probably don’t realise it since these arguments have been recycled again and again and again, becoming no more valid but all the more trite.
WM, jazakom Allah khayr.
I’ve just read this post , and wow I find 91 comments waiting for me to be read
LOL that’s lots of work specially that I have a paper due this Thursday and a final in the first week of April , so you can imagine me in April with few hairs 
and that because of pulling my hair . (for those who love to criticize grammar 
I’ll not proof read what I write because I want it natural with no revision ; directly from my mind to the screen in front of you 
yup and (”hairs” with “s” is correct 
I meant 10 or 15 hairs remaining 
.. I’m wondering as aside note , will my sweet fiancée love my newlook (LOL “few hairs”)
Now let me get to the nitty-gritty:
AbuSinan, I 100% disagree with you — perhaps even 200% I disagree too
. whether what you say is partially true , or even completely true , you destroyed it by over generalizing and stereotyping. I stand corrected here if I’m mistaken , but I believe whomever stereotypes others is narrow-minded no matter how intellectual he sounds — I hope you are not among those .
you said: “I have seen where…” I’m wondering , those whom you’ve seen represent their entire societies? Do they represent Islam too? Sorry AbuSinan, but you cannot judge people and their countries because of few people you met (I’m sure they are few if not a single case only , yet if it’s 100 or even 1000 cases , it’s still few) I can sense from your comments (and I’ve not sensed this from other people commenting in this article ), and you might correct me if I’m mistaken , you are a racist. Egypt’s population exceeds 70 mil, Morocco’s exceeds 30 mil and Yemen exceeds 20 mil.. And you, from a few cases that were narrated to you, you are insulting the entire people of these countries .
Let’s agree on one thing , everywhere there is the good and the bad, there is things we accept , and things we don’t accept . If we don’t like something that are practiced by handful of people , we cannot generalize that to their entire nation . Please as you don’t like others to stereotype Americans because of their foreign policy , don’t allow yourself to stereotype others . (I’m afraid in the day of judgment we’ll find more than 120 mil Egyptians / Moroccans / Yemenis running after you , and are taking every single ‘hasanat ” you’ve gathered in your life; you’re one and they are millions (”so rabi yi’enak [= yi3inak] menhom “) Be careful , and take good care of your treasures (hasanat)
Please, avoid your essentialist thinking. I remembered while reading your comments an article that I’ve read couple months back . It’s by Haney Lopez, Ian and it’s called “The Legal Construction of Race.” Please read it , and if you want an e-copy , I’ll be happy to scan it and email it to you.
Yeah, BTW, I’m from the gulf (people who have lots of money), and I’m engaged to a girl from one of these countries whom I can ‘buy’ a girl with $500 from her parents . Her parents are slightly richer than mine. she is as educated as I, and her major guarantee a brighter future to her than mine . Yet we are happily engaged and we should get married next year.
I’ve just read this post , and wow I find 91 comments waiting for me to be read
LOL that’s lots of work specially that I have a paper due this Thursday and a final in the first week of April , so you can imagine me in April with few hairs 
and that because of pulling my hair . (for those who love to criticize grammar 
I’ll not proof read what I write because I want it natural with no revision ; directly from my mind to the screen in front of you 
yup and (”hairs” with “s” is correct 
I meant 10 or 15 hairs remaining 
.. I’m wondering as aside note , will my sweet fiancée love my newlook (LOL “few hairs”)
Now let me get to the nitty-gritty:
AbuSinan, I 100% disagree with you — perhaps even 200% I disagree too
. whether what you say is partially true , or even completely true , you destroyed it by over generalizing and stereotyping. I stand corrected here if I’m mistaken , but I believe whomever stereotypes others is narrow-minded no matter how intellectual he sounds — I hope you are not among those .
you said: “I have seen where…” I’m wondering , those whom you’ve seen represent their entire societies? Do they represent Islam too? Sorry AbuSinan, but you cannot judge people and their countries because of few people you met (I’m sure they are few if not a single case only , yet if it’s 100 or even 1000 cases , it’s still few) I can sense from your comments (and I’ve not sensed this from other people commenting in this article ), and you might correct me if I’m mistaken , you are a racist. Egypt’s population exceeds 70 mil, Morocco’s exceeds 30 mil and Yemen exceeds 20 mil.. And you, from a few cases that were narrated to you, you are insulting the entire people of these countries .
Let’s agree on one thing , everywhere there is the good and the bad, there is things we accept , and things we don’t accept . If we don’t like something that are practiced by handful of people , we cannot generalize that to their entire nations . Please as you don’t like others to stereotype Americans because of their foreign policies , don’t allow yourself to stereotype others .
(I’m afraid in the day of judgment we’ll find more than 120 mil Egyptians / Moroccans / Yemenis running after you , asking God to take every single ‘hasanat ” you’ve gathered in your life; you’re one and they are millions (”so rabi yi’enak [= yi3inak] menhom “) Be careful
, and take good care of your treasures (hasanat) 
don’t give them away easily 
(my sense of humar only — which might be fact too.)
Please, avoid your essentialist thinking. I remembered while reading your comments an article that I’ve read couple months back . It’s by Haney Lopez, Ian and it’s called “The Legal Construction of Race.” Please read it , and if you want an e-copy , I’ll be happy to scan it and email it to you.
Yeah, BTW, I’m from the gulf (people who have lots of money), and I’m engaged to a girl from one of these countries whom I can ‘buy’ a girl with $500 from her parents . Her parents are slightly richer than mine. she is as educated as I, and her major guarantee a brighter future to her than mine . Yet we are happily engaged and we’re going to get married next year.
I’m just wondering , AbuSinan, will you consider me “an example” , so you can generlize my case in the future too???
All Best Wishes TO all
P.S. I enjoyed the post and all the comment immensely. Thanks Carol for this wonderful post
I found this related link to the post:
http://www.islamtoday.net/english/showme2.cfm?cat_id=34&sub_cat_id=893
Happy reading
PS: I apologize for the duplication in my previous comment — I was sleepy it seems
Khalid,
thanks for sharing the very interesting link. It is a good read.
Khalid,
You’d be completely wrong if you think I am a racist I am a white American married to a lady from one of those country where men travel abroad to “buy women”. My wife is from Saudi Arabia and we have two wonderful little boys together.
Part of her family is Yemeni, so I guess she comes from those who both buy and sell their daughters. Sad fact, but it happens.
Yours is an attitude that, unfortunately, I am all too used to dealing with. Instead of dealing with and addressing real issues within your community you’d rather call names, “racist” and “small minded”.
Instead of calling me names, why dont you address the real issue of the exploitation of women by men from the Gulf? You might not like it, but it is fact, so much so it is covered in the Arabic press.
In Lebanon it is a running joke how the Khaliji have made Beirut into their summer ground romp/brothel. Of course I didnt believe it until I traveled to Lebanon and saw it for myself, first hand.
It is a well known fact that large numbers of Khaliji men travel to places like Morocco to buy wives. You might not like it, but no amount of trying to pass it off as “stereo-typing” will change that.
This isnt coming from me, I have seen it with my own eyes on dozens of occasions and had have to sit and listen to Saudi/Kuwaiti and Emirati women complain about how hard it is to get married because the men just seem more interested in marrying foreigners than their own women. This has become such an issue governments in the area are passing laws to fight it.
It would seem your own governments are stereotyping! How racist and small minded of them.
Of course there are good and bad everywhere. I didnt say the Khalij had the corner on it. At the same time, you do yourself a disservice by objecting to things that are well known to all and sundry.
What I find sad, and a bit ironic, is how the Khaliji have no issue with their men marrying foreigners, they look down on their women who do it. But when their own men refuse to marry them, when are they going to go?
I have gotten dozens of e-mails on my site from Khaliji women looking to marry foreigners and trying to find out how to do it, get permission, deal with families, ect.
A real double standard indeed.
I’d like to go back to the child of a polygamous relationship. One of my western girlfriends only recently discovered about her husband’s second marriage and young baby. The younger of her children is at home and found out about it as well and is extremely distressed. The second child is away at college his first year. He’s very sensitive and adores his father. Is it deceitful not to tell him about the situation? The mother feels it is the father’s responsibility to tell his son at the appropriate time although she worries about the reaction with him away at school and no support group.
I’m glad you bring up this issue, Kinz. I usually do not watch Dr. Phil but last night the timing was right and one part of it was about children who suffer emotional scars for life because of their parents actions. One such case was a man who learned after 11 years that his daughter was not his biological daughter. So what does he do? Go out and tell her he’s not her father and also when divorced, refuses to pay any child support. Granted; I think we can all understand HIS emotions but at the same time, until D day he believed she was his daughter from birth and raised her as such. And to her, he was the only father she ever knew.
SO I agree with you that one has to watch out for the children. They are innocent. Sure, they will have views and are likely prone to take sides so a situation has to be handled very delicately. I think family counseling or counseling for the children would not be a bad idea to ensure the emotional issues are handled in the best way possible to prevent lasting scars.
AbuSinan,
OK, I stand corrected here. A racist in your case is the wrong choice I should admit, so please accept my apology. I deliberately chose it though. As Charles Lawrence put it, it’s the language of unconscious racism. In other words, whether you feel it or not, you are unconsciously racist, so no wonder, you don’t see it in your words. — I don’t blame you though for it.
“I have seen it with my own eyes on dozens of occasions…” ‘dozens of occasions’… Will this make it a fact? If it is that much of interest to you to prove the validity of those ‘things’ which are (called fact) according to you, then visit these countries and conduct a field study. When you come up with your statistics share them with us.
Sorry for appearing little bit harsh , but it is really sickening to find people just go on generalizing things about others , and they are at the same time don’t like it when they hear others stereotyping them.
What you don’t like to be done to you, don’t do it to others — this is my policy in this life. Feel free to use it
I give you the permission 
… Also, don’t hesitate to distribute it everywhere around you too 
We, in stead of trying to solve the problems around us ,we just go on spoofing others. At least, let’s try to discuss the issues around us constructively. offending others should not be our goal.
My female cousin is married to a foreigner, and not a single member of my family looks down at her (we are a pretty big family I should note) She has a son (whose father is of course non-khaliji) the son is treated equally in our family like any other child.
As aside note, I really don’t like to use these words “Khaliji ” “non-Khaliji” “Shamiyeen” “African Arabs” etc. in my opinion, this is nothing but creating divisions among Muslims — something we don’t need. As if we are categorizing Muslims to be elite and non-elite .
“la Farqa byna arabi wala ajami illa bi al taqwa”
Finally, I’m repeating a point that I mentioned in my previous comment
“I’m just wondering , AbuSinan, will you consider me ‘an example’ , so you can generlize my case in the future too???”
Thanks about your input. One of our mutual friends said that she feared the son would be more upset about being lied to. I remember once when I was in Grad school, an Egyptian student had returned from his summer vacation and was devastated to learn that his mother to whom he had been writing had passed away months ago. His family knew it would be a hardship for him to come in the middle of the school year and they didn’t want him to have any distractions from his studies. Although he understood their reasoning and good intentions he was still amazed that they let him wait months until he arrived to learn the truth.
Kinz
Kinz,
I feel that the woman’s son will be extremly upset when he finally finds out….perhaps more so at not being thought of as ‘adult enough’ to handle the news. Perhaps the woman has special reasons for not telling him that we don’t know about.
No matter what, I feel that he should be informed in a round about way as soon as possible. Maybe she could discuss this kind of situation happening to someone that they both know, and then ask his opinion on it. Then, depending on his reaction, she could ask how he would feel if that situation happend to them. Perhaps it is the father that should tell him since he was the one bold enough to do it without thinking of the rest of the family.
Either parent doesn’t need to tell him all the facts…when, where, how, or why….just that he should know that both parents love him.
Actually, the father should be the one to tell him as he is the one that made the decision without the family’s consent. I think it’s important to tell him before one of his friends or another family member tells him; though.
I also think that the children …even adult children…may be affected more if they have to watch their mother being visibly tormented while trying to cope with this situation if it’s something she’s not comfortable with. (as most women would not like it) This pain would be very difficult for the mother to hide from her children, and they would probably end up blaming their father for it.
I agree that the father should tell the son but if in the event, it is judged that he does not have the character to do so or be able to tell the son in a manner in thinking of the son’s feelings, then perhaps the mother or another close respected family member should tell him. The last thing one wants to happen is the son to find out on his own and then feel betrayed by either parent.
I know of a case where the father had not told the children he had remarried again and let the children learn “cold turkey” for themselves. Even though some time has passed since that occurred, there are still ongoing ramifications affecting familial relationships.
Let me say on the beginning, that I really like your blog. Living in different cultures myself, I know how different it is.
I also like a lot of things about Arabic countries, but today let me “vent out” on the issue that is often “spiritualised” and, I believe, explained in a way as to keep the realtionship/marriage system in tact in these countries.
I lived in Saudi Arabia for a very short time, and then in Qatar. You have no idea, how many women feel rejected, depressed and underestimated because their husbands chose to marry another woman.
I think that Arab men living in the strict countries are no different than men living in the rest of the world. Why do I say so? My husband was an English teacher and he would tell me almost every day the stories he heard form them.
I don’t even want to discuss that, for it is a private matter, but firmly disagree that Muslim morals based on Islam are really functioning very well in these societies.
Most of the men were cheating on their wives. Most of them were bragging about it. Fathers would include their sons from a fairly early age into the “secrecy of pleasurable life” conduct. The “stories from Dubai”, “renting apartments” etc., “bachelors outings” were more common than I ever expected. And most of the guys would do whatever they would like, and then go to Mecca (we lived in Jeddah), so what’s the big deal, right? The level of hypocrisy was enormous.
Young girls were terrified thinking about what the future brings. They are trapped in a system, without the possibilities of making personal choices.
I wonder, if the guys would be happy knowing that their wives might find someone different some day, who would fulfill their desires much better than them. How it would be for a change to have a law about wives having possibilities to marry again. That would be a sight. I know it does sound outrageous, but why these man are thinking that woman’s emotional frame is so much different than their own. How in the world they can abuse them in the name of ….what?
I don’t think that the man in Arabic countries are much different that in any other region of the world. But they can legally do what in other countries would be unheard of. They can have 2 or 3 or 4 wives at the same time. Easy way out. (Oh, I know they have to provide for them all at the same level). Of course, they can divorce and some do. But some feel sorry for their wives and don’t want to be the “bad guys”, so…the religion provides a way out of the situation. How convenient.
I don’t think God would made the world a better place for one gender, just because they deserve better. And we all have the same emotional/spiritual/sexual needs. And we all deserve better. But, of course, I can not question the teachings of Islam, they are sealed. It’s just sad that women can be treated like that in the name of God’s will.
I could write more, these are just the symptomatic thoughts on the issue of polygamy in a Muslim society. I know I can’t say anything bad about the founder of Islam, but …what can you expect from the religion where the prophet-founder has several wives and the youngest one is an elementary school age kid? I am not being arrogant, just blunt about the facts.
By the way, I am not a feminist.
I hope I did not offend you.
Iwka,
Welcome and many thanks for sharing your views. I have no qualms in openly acknowledging that while polygamy may be sanctioned in Islam, I as a woman do have choices and will have no part of it for myself.
Please keep commenting.
Regards,
Carol
‘…and the youngest one is an elementary school age kid…’
And what do you say about the fact in pretty much every ‘pre-modern’ society people of both sexes were considered of marriagable age when they hit puberty? That the periodisation of life is socially constructed? That 99% of human societies in the past had no problems with such behaviour? That it only became an issue in the last two centuries or so? That it only became an issue in a specific part of the world? That you are taking prejudices held by 1% of people for 1% of history and making them into universal laws of morality?
Think about it.
@Iwka: I wonder if you can even tell me what the Church Fathers taught about marriage to young women. No? Thought not.
Carol,
Please do not be angry with me, but I have to say this. Carol, I understand that you want to be diplomatic and let all of us speak our minds, but how do you feel when someone says he/she does not mean to offend our Prophet but then does exactly that??? I think there should be a limit to this diplomacy Carol when it comes down to insults. I certainly would not on a christians persons’ blog and insult them in such ways.
I just wish you would at least once say something in defence of our Prophet/religion in light of such comments….
” I know I can’t say anything bad about the founder of Islam, but …what can you expect from the religion where the prophet-founder has several wives and the youngest one is an elementary school age kid? I am not being arrogant, just blunt about the facts.”
Iwka, you just DID say something bad about the Prophet of God and I as a believer take offence to that. You are calling it facts, I would appreciate it if you can talk to knowledgable Muslims and ask questions instead of making statements based on ignorance and media misguidance.
Dalioness,
You do an outstanding job of defending beliefs and views!
Regards,
Carol
For Dalioness –
Regarding the quote from Iwka: ” I know I can’t say anything bad about the founder of Islam, but …what can you expect from the religion where the prophet-founder has several wives and the youngest one is an elementary school age kid? I am not being arrogant, just blunt about the facts.”
I am asking whether this is true or not. Thanks.
Wow, so many comments…
Thank you.
Susie: Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.9 p.130,131 (from http://www.muslimhope.com/WhyDidMohammedGetSoManyWives.htm#Aisha)
dalioness: I am sorry if you feel I have offended you. The fact is, 9 years old entering into marriage is very young, even for those times, when The Prophet lived, wasn’t it? I think what offended you, is the tone of my voice. As I said, I “vented out” my thoughts. I will try to be more sensitive.
By the way, I personally would have a biiiig problem if Jesus Christ would have several wives and consummate marriage with one of them being 9 years old. It amazes me continually, that Muslims do not feel nothing in that matter about The Prophet. Or maybe I don’t get something here…Enlighten me, please. (this is not sarcastic)
WM: I am thinking that whatever was/is permissible in the name of tradition/culture/religion (like concubines/young wives etc. even in the Bible, which I base my beliefs on) is not necessarily healthy for the individuals involved. I just can’t imagine that a 9 year old can be satisfied/happy (whatever that means)/fulfilled in a relationship involving sexual activity. No matter what millenium, continent, faith.
I don’t know what the “church fathers” said about marriage to young women. You are right
But the main point of my post was not about Aisha…
Plus…I like you, people. I wish I could learn Arabic while living there…. I am grateful that I had an opportunity to live among Saudis and Qataris. Their hospitality is fantastic. Food is the best. I will never forget the nights under the skies in the deserts. Neither the sand duning adventures.
Blessings.
“I personally would have a biiiig problem if Jesus Christ would have several wives and consummate marriage with one of them being 9 years old.”
…because your morality has nothing to do with the Church Fathers, with the textual sources of Christianity or its early followers; your morality is, by your own admission, not derived from your religion. Ergo, it is a custom, human artifice; arbitrary, and therefore not inherently superior to any other custom or prejudice.
Where does morality come from? What are the origins of moral judgments and what makes one thing ‘evil’ and another ‘good’?
‘No matter what millenium, continent, faith.’
See? You try to universalise, but you fail because it is only with the advent of bourgeois individualism that marriage necessarily become about ‘romantic love’, individual choice etc etc. That is why you think it was impossible for our mother `A’isha to be happy; you presuppose a particular form of ‘marital bliss’, you artificially raise the age of consent when it is self-evident that people become sexually active with the onset of puberty. What does being ’satisfied/happy’ mean? I would like a definition. We have absolutely no reason to suppose anything but that our mother was happy, she was a mu’mina and the wife of a Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) and moreover was his favourite wife.
Examine your unstated assumptions! For you, from what I gather, marriage is preceded by a process of courting; boy meets girl, both fall in love, they are of similar ages, he is in the football team and she is a cheerleader and what have you
These are historical notions about love; love is a concept with a history, it has many forms and over time they have differed greatly. The kind of adult love you talk about is a very specific historical phenomenon confined to a certain material reality. The vast majority have never shared this reality, and so cannot know that love. On whose authority do you render your own prejudices into eternal laws? Only God has that authority, only God can impose value and meaning in that sense (my belief).
Read Foucault
“It amazes me continually, that Muslims do not feel nothing in that matter about The Prophet.”
Most human communities in history would have had absolutely no reason to object to this practice; it is only ours. This supposedly innate reaction you have; it is not intrinsic, not essentially human- it is socialised. Mama and Papa raise you, they tell you what to believe and think; you participate in society and invariably come to assume that it’s ways are best, that they are self-evident etc. This is ‘ideology’ in the Marxian sense; it naturalises power, authority etc, it makes you think ‘this is how things really are, how they have always been’ when even a cursory examination of history will tell you that that is not the case.
The only reason it amazes you is because you have always assumed that it is wrong, this is what you were raised to believe; some socialised norms are almost literally impossible to reject. Why do you think ‘loss of faith’ is such a cataclysm? Muslims must go through the process of intellectual apostasy, a rejection of all non-Muslim codes of ethics and norms in order to arrive at belief, at morality as prescribed by Allah. Without this rejection they will always feel repulsed by certain Muslim practices- because of un-Islamic moral presuppositions.
Let me state now my belief that there is NO such thing as a rational basis for morality; at best we can speak of a supra-rational basis, that is from Allah who weighs up our various interests and prescribes what is best for us though we may not always see it.
My middle name is Circumlocutory
‘9 years old entering into marriage is very young, even for those times’
Actually, what is known is that A’isha had reached the age of puberty when the marriage was consummated, which varies according to climate, the woman’s biochemistry etc. Yes, it is not rare for this to happen at age nine.
It is not particularly young for those times; eyebrows were not raised, even by non-Muslims.
Carol, insha Allah I will link to the best articles I have read on this topic (is that OK?):
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html
I first read this article five or more years ago, and I returned to it just now and found it to be beneficial.
This is a pdf and is good for its discussion of the hadith literature. I don’t agree with a lot of things Haddad writes but this is him at his best:
http://mac.abc.se/~onesr/d/aam1_e.pdf
btw to get a good understanding of the historicity of morality, read Marx (’Communist Manifesto’, ‘the German Ideology’, Engels has stuff too, on the origin of the family and private property) Nietzsche (’Beyond Good and Evil’, ‘the Genealogy of Morals’) and Foucault (’the History of Sexuality’, vol I.). Those were the texts I benefited most from in terms of their relevance to this dicussion. Also, anything on ‘ideology critique’ is good, I am sure you will enjoy reading it and having your assumptions about morality questioned
Ironically I found it was that some acquaintance with these ideas allowed me to reject apparently seductive ideals and norms such as ‘democracy’, ‘humanism’ (a quasi-religious ideology) etc more forecully than ever before.
Susie: here is a link to somebody who makes an interesting case that Ayesha might actually have been quite a bit older.
http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/Ayesha.html
it has been argued that after Khadiija died the prophet remarried women as examples, and to set examples for the future: Widows, divorcees, and daughters of enemies, or other faiths, like Mary the Copt.
I think I’m repeating myself, anyway, what I understand is still; that under certain circumstances (!) Polygamy is halal, but that already stops if wife #1 isn’t happy with the idea.
Or if the man is incapable of loving both women exactely the same. And it also says they never will be.
And as so many women feel very unhappy about it, perhaps it would be good if men just gave up the idea for the time being.
And I have not come across The Quran demanding women to just lump their husbands decisions in this matter.
So if somebody can give me a passage, please.
And don’t all fall over me, but I have problems with blindly accepting the opinion of scholars (of any faith): they are human, and all have their own opinions, which can vary greatly. And they are mostly male.
It is my personal feeling that such discussions as these tend to concentrate on what I feel are details, and we forget the real great truths and basics which should be in our minds first.
Like one of my friends says: people are worshipping religion instead of God. This is why I myself have great problems with organised religion and refuse to be part of one.
WM: aside from the current subject: I truly believe that there are something like universal determined truths ”good and evil” and that many people feel them in their hearts. For those who don’t, there are people like Jesus, the Buddha, and Mohammed to explain it to them.
Dalioness: It is clear that we don’t agree on this point, I do not think that suffering a husbands neglect or betrayal is required to be a good muslima, but I do admire your great heart and courage. Your name is well chosen.
Hee, WM, we have been writing some of the same stuff at the same time!
I don’t like Nietsche, Karl Marx had good ideas, but no incling of the reality of life the universe and everything!
I think about democracy and humanity, I consider the prophet as humane.
Aafke,
Rightly or wrongly, the man can (and too often) does marry without the wife’s knowledge and consent which kind of makes point number one debatable. And of course, if we go back to the original post and the candid words of the first wife, you can hear how the changes in her and her family’s life are impacting them.
Let’s try to stay away from the debates which are separate from the posting. The point of the post is about the situation and having polygamy placed into a specific family’s life and how this new situation is impacting them on a day-to-day basis. If you need to, reread the post and hear and feel her words and emotions. This is a real life here which a brave woman has chosen to have shared towards helping others understand the realities of modern day polygamy.
Dear Aafke, I in no way implied that it is “required” of anyone to suffer in this way. The root of the many misunderstandings on this and other subjects which have very much to do with Islam is our different perspectives.
Polygyny is not something invented by our scholars, like any other aspect of Islam, scholars are only there to teach people while taking their evidences from the Qur’an and Sunnah. As such, when it comes down to the subject of polygyny, the scholars are not saying anything new in terms of its’ conditions and laws, it is all there, in the Qur’an and the Sunnah.
Assuming that you also take ahadeeth as a source of knowledge about Islam, polygyny, its’ conditions and laws have been explained there in detail. The Prophets’ saws life was a public life, the only privacy he seemed to have is when he was alone with his wives, and even in this aspect, his wives gave accounts of his personal life. From his biography we do learn that he did not always tell his previous wives that he is marrying another one, and although he was fair and just between all of them, it is clear that it is not a condition to “love” them equally, as love is a matter of the heart and it is not something we can control. The reason why his wives, although naturally, they showed jealousy at times, did not object to his many marriages, and did not stipulate that they must be asked for their permission, is because they knew that this is his right given to him by his Lord. I refuse to believe that the best of Muslims, the sahaba and the sahabiyat, invented lies against out Prophet saws.
I will not go into the discussion of it though, because I just do not have the energy to debate about it. I just want to emphasize that in terms of my nick “dalioness”, it was given to me, I never picked it myself. And it was given to me due to my strong gheerah for Allah and His Messenger saws, as well as my Muslim brothers and sisters. I do not think I deserve it however, and I truly do not elevate myself over others, and those who know me personally can insha’Allah attest to that, smile.
And although we obviously disagree on a number of issues, I appreciate your maturity in the way you handle a discussion, I think we all learn and we all want to be better people.
And Aafke, I do want to add just so that I am not misunderstood insha’Allah, that although the permission of the first wife is not one of the conditions, in this time and age it is better to discuss it with the wife. We are far from the example of the sahabiyat, their strength of faith in Allah and their focus on the Hereafter. So the wife’s feelings should not be disregarded simply because this is the husbands’ right.
I will try to stay on the topic, although I’m itching to continue on the other themes we have touched.
I think the institution of marriage in Islam, as explained and understood by Quran, scholars and Muhhamed’s exemple of life, does not provide space for any other discussion regarding: what if. It is what it is. And now, because it seems that some part of it is wrongly established, or interpreted, we have a problem, which in the name of Islam we have to cope with.
In my opinion the foundation of Islamic marriage is nothing else than a contract. There is no mention about nothing else than obligations. And the pleasure for man. Sex being and act of love committed in that way is part of this contract.
In Christianity, when a man marries a woman, they become one.
“Have you not read, he replied, that at the beginning the Creator “made them male and female,” and said, “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh”? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate. (Gospel of Matthew 19;4-6; Mark 10:6-9)
This is the biggest difference, I suppose, between this noble institution of marriage in Islam and Christianity. It is not my intention to put one superior to another. I am just trying to understand the whole concept. And we don’t understand marriage as a “lovy-dovy” infatuation start up, followed by years of coping with each other. But at least, we can talk to the guy more then three times before we get married.
Christian concept of love is mutual service, caring, charity, helping the spouse to become the best he/she can be and fulfilling their purpose and calling they were created for.
So, when we, Christians, get married (I am talking about believers, not the culture), we believe we are one. This union is forever. It is considered an intimate union in which the spouses give themselves, as equal persons, completely and lovingly to one another. It is intended to be a faithful, exclusive, lifelong union of a man and a woman joined in an intimate community of life and love. One to one. Otherwise, it does not make sense. In this concept of marriage, there is no place for the third party. Sorry. Otherwise, there is no sense in promising life longing love.
The question is, are we so dependable on the cultural/social/religious values and dogmas that we can’t agree on universal understandings of views?
Now we are entering into the field of anthropology, which I am not that familiar with, but the basic view and understanding of a human being must be analized. The question will be, of course, is the human knowledge without presuppositions possible?
But I found, that in Islam you also understand every human being to have:
Jism (body, physique),
Nafs (personality, character), and
Rooh (soul, spirit).
My question is then: what happens to these “parts” of a human being, regardless the gender, when they enter into the union of muslim marriage?
How different is it for a man than a woman? What are the psychological aspects of everything connected with getting married? Do you believe that something “spiritual” happens when you vow before God to stay with this person forever? Do you think that sex is “spiritual”? What are the consequences then of one spouse disregarding this union, which was established in God’s eyes?
If both, men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah, why men seem to have more opportunities to sneak away from their obligations legally, while women can’t or their actions would bring such repercusions that they just give up and suffer to protect their dignity or children.
To be frank with you, my personal opinion is (not that it matters to you) that Mohammed simply justified his sensuality by making remarks which now cause tremendous confusion for those under Islam. I can’t get over hurijas(sorry for spelling, don’t really know how to) in heaven (by the way, if heaven is so carnal, promising super extra virgins to all the guys, not much for the women again, I would not want to be there. Plus the hell is populated by women anyway according to the visionsof Mohhamed, isn’t? Really clever). What about “Muta” marriages? Legalized prostitution I would call it. What about the sex slaves? I don’t even want to go into the subject of hadamas in present day Saudi. Partially related, but makes me mad anyway.
Well, enough of rumblings. Have a good evening everybody. Or night?
Rubbish. That is really all it is since you confirmed yet again that your “understanding” of Islam in general, polygyny and marital institution in specific, is based on biases and lack of knowledge.
It is clear that you do not want to have proper knowledge of Islam, you already have your assumptions and misconceptions which you hold to be the truth. That is the problem with humans in general, you are not the only one who judges according to their own “intelectual blue print” based upon which “you” decide what God wants or does not want, what is or isn’t acceptable.
At least, although I do not believe in Christianity, when I enter a discussion with Christians, I do not offend their beliefs, especially not by way of pretending that it is not my intention to do so but then do it anyway in the same sentence, same conversation. There is no problem to state that you disagree or do not believe in this or that, but there is no need to be offensive and downright nasty about it.
[...] Necessery evil or convenient resolution. Last night I read a post in American Bedu blog about polygamy. It has over 100 comments. I posted 3 of mine. Here they [...]
It is interesting to me that when I touch the “sensitive” topics related to Islam and say the facts about it as I read/understand/process them, you think that my purpose is to offend you. Which part is nasty?
Please, try to sensibly answer my confusing thoughts. I am not a Muslim. You are. You explain to me, what I luck in processing the info I get form hundreds of sites explaining Islam.
Where do i get the proper knowledge of Islam?
My opinion is as biased as anyone elses living in the West, I guess. Tell me then, what and where to look for?
Regards.
@Iwka: You are right, marriage is a social contract established between two parties, it is not a ’sacrament’ as it is in Christianity. Divorce is not sacrilege, it is the dissolution of a contract. Of course, love and other things are very important and have their place, but we are talking about the bare bones here.
“In Christianity, when a man marries a woman, they become one.”
Which means nothing, because this is the case in every religion/society etc. Women are the twin halves of men- does that necessarily mean they have the same rights, obligations etc? No it does not; it means that they complement each other and are good together in union, nothing else.
“But at least, we can talk to the guy more then three times before we get married.”
Can you? See, your problem is (as with every Christian I have ever met) that you conflate Western secular humanistic norms with religious Christian ones. Hardly any Christian community has been of that kind; like other social formations they have always been patriarchal. btw a woman can talk to a man as much as she wants, as long as they are not alone together, behaving inappropriately etc, so I have no idea where your ‘three times’ rule comes from. You keep reading relatively modern ideas of ‘romantic love’ INTO what is old Scripture, you keep falling into anachronism. In early Christian society, do you think there was any of this luvy-duvy prom queen football captain stuff? No. It was a patriarchal and Semitic society, and I doubt gender norms (etc) actually differed much at all from those of the society of 7th Century Arabia.
“It is considered an intimate union in which the spouses give themselves, as equal persons, completely and lovingly to one another.”
Pure anachronism, you are a terrible historian. ‘They give each other to the other’ etc- ‘they are in love’- what period in time did these ideas originate? Arranged marriages were the norm, in Christian as well as other societies- and there is no comparison between this and that.
“Christian concept of love is mutual service, caring, charity, helping the spouse to become the best he/she can be and fulfilling their purpose and calling they were created for.”
Which again means nothing, as every good husband/wife should endeavour to do these things for their spouse.
“Do you believe that something “spiritual” happens when you vow before God to stay with this person forever? Do you think that sex is “spiritual”?”
Pure ‘ideology’, a human fiction. Be a little more critical. Anyway, how can sex be ’spiritual’ to those people who consider it a deficiency- to you, celibacy is the ideal, marriage and sex are for those who are somehow weak. And, since you ask, it is ridiculous to consider it ’spiritual’, just as there is nothing ’spiritual’ about eating breakfast, giving birth etc- these are all material processes, animals do these things too. If you want to consider it as something ‘else’, go ahead and do so, but this is no more than a silly meaning you impose on material realities.
“I can’t get over hurijas(sorry for spelling, don’t really know how to) in heaven”
Because for you, sex and childbirth are a punishment for man’s fall, they are our deficiency. Christian theologians read sexual desire as the punishment for the mistake of Adam (as), for them it is quasi-evil.
“What about “Muta” marriages?”
They are haram.
Busy, must work now.
Iwka,
My response to you will depend on your answer to the following questions:
Do you consider the possiblity that Islam IS the truth and the only religion acceptable to God? If yes, would you submit to God/become Muslim, someone who accepts the truth that, the knowledge we are given is limited and nothing is judged according to our wants, but according to Gods’ Law?
If you are “asking” all these “questions” because you sincerely want to know and hope to benefit from this knowledge, than I am ready to help you with that according to my ability, God willing.
Outside of that, this remains a bashing of Islam, which is exactly what it is now, and there is no benefit in it for any one of us, as such, it is called a waste of time.
So yes I am willing to help you as much as I can, but not by way of debating and not by way of having to bear your repetitive blasphemous insults which you disguise under the cloak of “explain my confusing thoughts”, only because your weak human mind cannot process the truth and wisdoms behind it.
NOTE: By your “weak human mind” I am not singling you out, every human being is weak in that respect since our knowledge is limited. So I am right there with you, therefore not insulting you.
I can’t argue sacramental marriage here obviously.
In a plain language, for Christians marriage is a covenant. One time and forever. With one person. Theoretically that brings stability and assurance, doesn’t it? Does it do the same for a muslim woman? I would be terrified not knowing if I can trust my husband, bc he has another option down the road.
And living in the Middle East and hearing stories over and over form the men, I must say, they are not different from any other part of the world. Just married women are in worse position, especially considering the law about the kids after divorce, so…. is there a way out for them? In reality no, because a woman will not willingly leave her kids behind. How many women do you know who did that?
Celibacy is not ideal for Christians. Read the Epistles. It is a choice in order to be given completely to God’s works (practically: more time, possibilities etc). It is for men and women who want to sacrifice their whole life in the service for God.
Sex is not a punishment for Christians. It is an expression of love and commitment. It should be enjoyed within the marriage.
Why do you consider “marriages for pleasure” haram?
Narrated Abdullah: We used to participate in the holy wars carried on by the Prophet and we had no women (wives) with us. So we said (to the Prophet ). “Shall we castrate ourselves?” But the Prophet forbade us to do that and thenceforth he allowed us to marry a woman (temporarily) by giving her even a garment, and then he recited: “O you who believe! Do not make unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you.” Bukhari: Volume 6, Book 60, Number 139.
And a known one:
“You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.”
No wonder they have to try hard. Seems, that even harder than the men, doesn’t?
What about the sex slaves? What about permissible rapes of the enemy prisoners? (Surah 4:24)
What will women do in Muslim heaven?
I find it fascinating that millions of Muslim women are happy about these everlasting virgins surrounding their husbands in the future life forever. Plus, if this is SO important, it somehow makes me think that sexual pleasure plays an leading role in Islam, if THIS is what you will get there and THIS is what the men are talking about and hoping for.
— Houris do not want wives to annoy their husbands, since the houris will also be the spouses [i.e. wives] of the husbands in the afterlife. —”Mu’adh b. Jobal (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, ‘A woman does not annoy her husband but his spouse from amongst the maidens with wide eyes intensely white and deeply black will say: Do not annoy him, may Allah ruin you.” He is with you as a passing guest. Very soon, he will part with you and come to us.’” Ibn-i-Majah vol.3:2014 p.212
Does that mean that even in heaven married women have to make place for tens of other women and live in submission to ….who? What is Muslim woman’s hope in the afterlife? Again to be a wife among about 70+ others? What a hope to live for.
I think that all of these sayings and exemples of The Prophet (there is more, many more) create the world in which a man has a better “start of” position than a woman. But one can’t argue that, right?
Rumblings again, but it’s getting late here too.
Iwka:
Have you thought about my question posed to you?
What is your point of arguing this with us? What do you benefit from that?
Again I am telling you, you do not know Islam simply because you read a few ahadeeth. Do you know what has been abrogated and what has not been abrogated? And that is just one tiny aspect of it. We take this religion as a whole, we do not single out one or two ayat and make them outweigh the rest, the same goes for ahadeeth.
What you are doing here right now, I could do the same and ten times over with the biblical verses, and I guarantee you Iwka, I guarantee you, you would be left without an answer to my questions. Because it does not work this way. If I singled out many many verses of the Bible, you would not be worshipping Jesus alayhi salam. But I won’t even go into that.
This exactly is the point. You do not even accept the basic Muslim belief, yet you reject all else that is from Islam. I suggest to you, start seriously considering what you worship and why. I do not accept Jesus alayhi salam to be anything more but a Messenger of God, so how would it make sence to delve into other aspects of Christianity when I can’t even accept this basic christian belief? I have a lot more questions on the concept of trinity than you can provide answers for, I guarantee you this as well.
So let’s cut this short, do you consider the possibility of Islam being the one and only way to God and do you consider the possibility that Muhammad saws was His Messenger sent to mankind? And are you “asking” your questions for this reason?
Thank you
Dalioness,
sorry I did not see your first post. I think I was writing my answer then.
I found the truth in following Christ and I do not consider embracing Islam myself.
However, I am truly very interested in understanding it. I can’t comprehend how people can follow Mohhamed because of some of the things which are described about him in Quran or hadiths. I consider those as the primary sources of Islam. I understand that in Islam you have different interpretations of the Holy Scriptures, schools, scholars ? But for sure there are some core believes that everybody follows, no matter what. What are these? Who decided/decides which ones are they?
In my mind the biggest obstacle to the believes of Islam is Muhammed himself. His life and His example. I have no clue how people can rationally explain some of His behaviors. You can’t find nothing like this about Jesus in the Bible. I will no mention what, because I don’t want you to get upset with me again.
Could you follow for a while my path of thoughts: IF I want to know something about a religion, I look for the founder, original thought etc. If I look into Islam I look into the life of Mohammed. For me, His example is unacceptable. If I ask the questions straight forward, you say I offend you, I have wrong impressions about Islam, I am ignorant etc. But you don’t give me the answers for my questions, no matter how dumb they are. Why is not what I read about Him understood as He said it or as He did it. The more digging I do into the theme, the more controversy His person creates in my mind.
I don’t know where to look (don’t have that much time) for info that would be written to the “ignorant” person as myself. Not generalized and so vague that does not bring any depth, but also not full of Arabic terminology, which I can’t understand and not full of proving that “this way” of Islam is better than “this way”.
If you can show me where to look, especially in the subject of interpreting Mohammed’s life and sayings, I would be thankful.
If you think, this is a waste of time, or you have more exciting things in Iife to consider, I understand.
Thank You.
Iwka,
I do not recall where you are located but the Saudi embassy has a pamphlet entitled “Understanding Muslims & Islam.” It makes no attempt to convert one to Islam but try to answer questions in a direct straight-forward manner. This pamphlet was distributed to many outgoing military personnel to Iraq and Afghanistan at the behest of the Pentagon to the Saudi embassy in Washington, DC. It is a short and good read.
Iwka,
Mohammed was the last Prophet that God sent to us on Earth that we will ever see until the Last Day. His message was a simple one….to follow the previous messages from the Prophets Abraham, Moses, and Jesus and all the others and that the ‘People of the Book’ are also true believers. If you look at the Ten Commandments, which are also in the Qur’an, that’s basically the message you (and all of us) should believe and live by.
And what is the First Commandment…do you know? From what I remember from what I was taught as a Catholic (I’m Muslim now), it was…
‘There is only One God, I shalt not have false gods before me.’
The First Commandment is what makes a person a muslim…the belief in the Oneness of God (Allah).
If people looked at the similarities, instead of the differences, most would understand how similar the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim religions really are.
Both the Chicago Sun Times & Reuters chose to publish this post:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/blogentries/index.html?bbPostId=CzCso0daZ4bnXBEZgr4vZTMqJCzEQn0SICjVwECzB1jU3ghAbe8
http://www.reuters.com/article/blogBurst/domestic?bbPostId=CzCso0daZ4bnXBEZgr4vZTMqJCzEQn0SICjVwECzB1jU3ghAbe8