Presently in the Kingdom life comes to a complete stop five times a day for 30 minutes in order to ensure all muslims go to pray. The shops close, the banks close, the schools have breaks for prayer, the hospitals have breaks for prayer, gas stations close, all shops in the malls will close, restaurants and grocery stores will shut down too. In and near many of these places there may be pairs of muttawa (religious police) who will also oversee and direct everyone to go pray. If they spot men whom they believe to be muslims or a man and woman together who appear to be muslim, they may confront them and want to know why they have not gone to pray and escort them to prayer. Saudi Arabia is one of the few, if not the only, country in the Arab muslim world where life comes to a halt during prayer time with all the closures as it is the law and not a choice. (I tried doing google searches for what other countries close down like Saudi Arabia during prayer time but could not find any statistics)
In the majority of countries in the arab muslim world the call for prayer will be announced so muslims are aware that it is time to pray. However in most cases, the shops, banks and businesses will remain open allowing people to choose to continue business while those muslims who wish to pray may go and pray. When I was in Pakistan for example, rather than closing down during prayer time, the shop clerk would pray in a private area in the back of the store but choose to have the store remain open so customers could continue to browse and shop. When he finished his prayers he would resume serving customers. Neighboring Bahrain and UAE do not routinely close their businesses during prayer time. Could that be because these countries believe closing down 3-4 times per day (depending on their store hours and correlation with the five daily prayers) will impact with a loss of business and revenue? Alternatively does Saudi Arabia choose to have the total shut down to ensure its citizens pray? Is there a fear that fewer would choose to pray if businesses remained open throughout prayer time?
Filed under: Saudi Arabia, Saudi culture, Saudi customs, culture, islam, religion
We have prayer rooms in the malls and hospitals, in offices is easy to find a clean room to pray .
I dnt think we fear loss of money .
Saudi Arabia dsnt have many visitors I think, due to visa restrictions . Shutting down life for 30 min 5 times a day, is bad also for the image of Islam.
Maybe we are too relaxed in religion, but better than suffocating .
Do women go to the mosque to pray? Do they pray together with men or separately? Do they go home during these times to pray?
How does someone “look Muslim” ?
kt
Balquis == where are you located? And yes; if one wishes to pray, it is very easy to find a place to pray in the Kingdom regardless of ones location.
Karen — not all of the mosques in the Kingdom have a ladies section so to answer your question, some women will go to the mosque but overall the majority going to mosques are men. And typically they do pray separately — if at a mosque or not in their own home. In homes many families will pray together with the father or the son acting as the imam. In KSA it is acceptable for one to pray whenever and wherever they wish but if one is working it is unlikely they would take time out to go home, especially as prayer areas are so readily available.
In my view there is no set “category” in that one looks muslim per se. Key indicators however with a woman is if she is covering her head in a traditional manner would likely indicate she is a muslim. However muslims can and do look like anyone whether male or female.
Carol,
In many Arabic countries, shops are only required to close for the Friday prayer. I know this is definitely the case in the UAE. In Islam teachings there is nothing to require the closer of shops for prayer except for the Jumah (Friday prayer). Actually there is a clear hadith about this. Unfortunately in Saudi Arabia the religious police takes liberty to implement stricter rules than what is required. I know many merchants in the kingdom that view these strict rules as a nuisance and have impact on business as it limits their business hours and drives away customers. This is especially true for the evening prayers as they take over an hour of the most productive time of the day.
Saudi in US:
Thanks for the additional insights.
Yes; especially in the evenings and weekends ones activities are planned around prayer times.
Regards,
Carol
Am in Oman
We don’t have to look Muslim lol We must be
We follow the Sunnah of the Prophet, who indicated that women are not required to go to Mosque, we can pray at home
However there’s an authentic hadeeth [saying of the Prophet] stating that if we want to go, men can’t force us not to
Am not sure there’s a ladies section in all Mosques, but for sure in the biggest yes
Women have their spaces in Mosques also for gatherings and lectures
Thanks for the info Balqis.
As Salam Alaykum,
I actually like the fact that Saudi is strict in this regard. We do not live in the time of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and fitnah is spreading more and more. People are becoming more and more lax in religion. Just as the husband is responsible for his wife and children, and just as the wife is responsible for her household, the rulers are also responsible for their citizens.
The reality is that in many other muslim countries, there is open zina, girls in hijab openly having boyfriends, people neglecting prayer, etc.
The laws in Saudi are surely strict, but I also feel that they are much needed.
Sure, Saudi just like any other country is not perfect, but I do believe that people who think of the Hereafter truly benefit from the laws there.
Allah knows best
dalioness,
Unfortunately applying the strict rules you are supporting, has produced a commission that policies morality in the country. There is no week that goes by that we do not hear of abuse of power from this group. I provide a link of a story from today at the bottom. This is not unique, it happens all the time and people actually die in their custody. We are paying a heavy price in abuse and restrictions of freedoms. This is not a coincident as when you police morality you have people that interpret what is moral. It is better to define laws and apply them using regular police.
By the way, forcing people to go to mosques, does not make them better Muslims. The ones that do not want to pray have already learned the hiding techniques to avoid the Mutwaa during prayer time. All we get out of this is inefficiencies based on rules that are not Isalmic. One of the teachings of Islam is that you can not make forbidden those things that God allows. And there is no where in the Hadith or Quraan where people are required to close shops during prayer except for Friday.
Another thing to consider is that prayer times extend for hours for most, allowing for ample opportunity to conduct prayer at a later time, if a person is busy. The reason for this is that the prophet knew that people can be occupied with work and daily shores. Restricting the religion makes it tougher for people to follow and has a negative impact.
http://arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=105651&d=15&m=1&y=2008
Regards
In regards to conformity, you may wish to read an earlier post I wrote:
http://delhi4cats.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/must-one-conform-to-a-certain-style-to-be-considered-religious/
dalioness
maybe am lucky to speak as convert, but you must feel it inside, can’t be forced
I think the only case in which Rasulullah recommended discipline in prayer, is with the kids
He said that if they dnt start at 7-10, then you must enforce it but is understandable as is part of education of a Muslim child and pillar of faith
No compulsion in the religion
I can’t speculate on wether people would pray more or less, but ”enforcing” the issue doesn’t seem much good. Islam is very clear on the importance of ”intent” so if you pray, or wear the hijab, or never drink alcohol because you are forced to, then it has no value. What does religion mean if it doesn’t live in your hart? And if it does, why not trust people to make their own decisions where and when they pray? Especially as you have a certain timeframe in which to pray.
Hm, I think I may have a been misunderstood, but khayr insha’Allah.
Actually, there are many ahadeeth that speak in support of such discipline.
I have a good reason why I hold this opinion, and it can be backed up with many many ahadeeth. Yes there is no compulsion in religion, this is clear, however there is such a thing as enjoining good and forbidding evil.
None of you is “wrong” per say, however this issue is not so black and white because we will find evidence in the Qur’an and Sunnah for both your and my stance. I will not engage in openly criticizing the government, as this is something that Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam strictly forbade and told how us how to advise rulers if need be.
Thus, insha’Allah when I find more time, I may come back only with some ahaadeeth, but I am not trying to prove a point here. It is just my opinion which I am not trying to shove down anyones’ throat, so why do it to me?
I think we are allowed to disagree insha’Allah.
Dear Carol,
I commented on the provided link to your earlier post on the incident at the masjid.
“Enjoining good and forbidding evil”. I understand the concept, but in Saudi it has beget a system where the very people charged with “forbidding evil” are committing acts that would be seen by most people as “evil” itself.
One of the basis of Islam is intention, (Niyya). If your intention is not true then there is little or no reward for doing something. So if left on your own you would choose NOT to pray, then there is little reward (or none even) for being forced to pray. The same goes for hijab and a load of other things in Saudi. When one looks at Saudi culture, as a whole, I find very little “Islamic” about it. The way the poor are treated, the way the ill, both physically and mentally are treated, the way the countries are governed, and especially their approach to the religion.
What these things have done is make Saudi Arabia become a nation of hypocrites and we all know that hypocrisy is probably the worst thing in Islam next to shirk (associating others with God). The hypocrisy has actually helped develop a culture of lies and deceit. I think it is these things that have helped create the culture of “jamyal kadaba” and “kalam fadi” that pervades the Middle East now.
Sorry for going off, so to answer your question, would fewer pray? Sure they would, but as God gave us all freedom of choice, then that is just fine.
dalioness,
“It is just my opinion which I am not trying to shove down anyones’ throat”
You can not shove anything down our throats, most of us lived in Saudi so someone already beat you to it
. It is a group called the Commission of Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice and they took the exact concept you are promoting, “enjoining good and forbidding evil”, to a level where they abused and terrorized and entire population for over a half century.
Insha’Allah the following ahadeeth will be sufficient in itself, and it is just a reminder anyway:
Allah’s Apostle said, “By Him in Whose Hand my soul is I was about to order for collecting fire-wood (fuel) and then order someone to pronounce the adhan for the prayer and then order someone to lead the prayer then I would go from behind and burn the houses of men who did not present themselves for the (compulsory congregational) prayer. By Him, in Whose Hands my soul is, if anyone of them had known that he would get a bone covered with good meat or two (small) pieces of meat present in between two ribs, he would have turned up for the ‘Isha’ prayer.’ [sahih Al Bukhari]
The ‘Prophet said, “It is obligatory for one to listen to and obey (the ruler’s orders) unless these orders involve one disobedience (to Allah); but if an act of disobedience (to Allah) is imposed, he should not listen to or obey it.” [sahih Al Bukhari]
The Prophet said, “Whoever notices something which he dislikes done by his ruler, then he should be patient, for whoever becomes separate from the company of the Muslims even for a span and then dies, he will die as those who died in the Pre-lslamic period of Ignorance (as rebellious sinners). (sahih Al Bukhari, refer to Fath Al Bari page 112, Vol. 16)
A man came to the Prophet and said, “O Allah’s Apostle! You appointed such-and-such person and you did not appoint me?” The Prophet said, “After me you will see rulers not giving you your right (but you should give them their right) and be patient till you meet me.” [sahih Al Bukhari]
The Prophet said, “A Muslim has to listen to and obey (the order of his ruler) whether he likes it or not, as long as his orders involve not one in disobedience (to Allah), but if an act of disobedience (to Allah) is imposed one should not listen to it or obey it. (sahih Al Bukhari]
How true is this athar:
Sufyan At Thawri rahimahullah said, “We met a people who loved it when it was said to them ‘Fear Allah the Most High’. Today you find that people only become annoyed at this”.
Dalioness,
The Saudi regime, from top to bottom, is completely UNISLAMIC in it’s actions. Sorry, they are not a good reprenstation of Islam, nor are many of the rules and laws in Saudi based upon Islam. They are based on tribal law.
So, even according to your own Hadith, if the rules of Saudi decree that one must be forced to pray, but The Qur’an does not support it, then it is a rule that should, even must, be ignored.
One must also realise that Hadith come from MEN. A hadith is NOT the word of God. It is a collected saying or action of the Prophet as recorded by a man, passed down by men, therefor likely to be in error.
Religion is a personal choice and should be made by people on their own, it is wrong to force people to do anything based on other’s idea of what the religion might or might not say.
Agree with the previous poster.
And as far as hadith go, I would also like to know who actually made it, for that can make a difference, wether is is a ”trutworthy” or ”less-trustworthy” individual.
All I wish to say is that I am thoroughly enjoying the dialogue that is taking place via the comments. All, please keep your views forthcoming.
Regards,
Carol
Saudi US and Abu Sinan,
I do not speak an opinion unless it is based on the Qur’an and Sunnah. This life is a life of tests and hardships and noone said that we will not be tested by our rulers and that we will not suffer injustice at times. However, Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam has advised us of our responsibilities and what to do in such situations, and he left no room open to acting and speaking upon ones’ likes and dislikes. The ahadeeth I mentioned are truly only a few, and I recall a hadith which states that even if a ruler was to beat you, you must obey him if the obedience does not involve disobedience to Allah.
Yes, the niyya is important and without it no word or deed is accepted. So, in light of that, what is our niyya in posting these comments? Not that posting comments is wrong, but what is our niyya for doing so? Especially as they relate to matters of the deen?
If a muslim ruler/govenrment was supposed to leave the people up to their niyya alone, Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam would have been the first one to do it.
As for calling Saudi Arabia (publicly) or any other muslim country for that matter, a nation of hypocrisy, then with all due respect brother this is not for us to and goes against the very basic principles of Islam.
Look at how the great scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah and Ahmad ibn Hanbal as well as many others have suffered at the hands of their rulers, yet they governed themselves with the principles of Qur’an and Sunnah.This is because they realized that on Yawmul Qiyamah they will be questioned about their own actions, not someone elses’. And because they realized that whatever injustice they may have suffered in this world, they would seek their recompense for it with Allah.
All governments, muslim or non-muslim, are not perfect and you will find in every country people who do not like this or that. You will find in every country those who abuse their authority, although the reasons may differ.
In the US, you will end up in jail if you do not pay your traffic tickets. Whether you like it or not (many do not), this is the law. Does it have anything to do with morals, enjoining the good and forbidding from evil? Is it such a big crime, especially if someone had the intention to pay it but just could not come up with the money? You be the judge. Yet, it is still the law. Or the amount in taxes one has to pay here and what is funded with most of that money. Many people here disagree, yet they still obey their laws and pay. Yes, in the United States of America there is the concept of freedom of speech and it is allowed to openly criticize the government, but is it a country that is based upon the principles of Islam? No. Do the subjects govern themselves according to the principles of Islam? No, except for the Muslims who live here (those of them who take heed to the words of our Prophet).
Every country has its’ values and principles by which it is governed, and perfection is to be found in none. But Alhamdulillah, Islam is perfected for us and we have the guidance of Allah and His Messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, and his direct orders and prohibitions dealing with the situation we are facing today.
I can understand your concerns, wallahi I can, and I am not saying these words in a way of debate. I am only trying to remind you that no matter what you may like or dislike from the Saudi government, yours is only to obey Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and whatever injustice you may suffer in this world, insha’Allah you will be recompensed for it in the Hereafter, if you stick with the Sunnah of our Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.
I may not live in that country however I would like to consider myself well informed alhamdulillah.Believe me, I am not saying that it is perfect, however I do see a greater benefit in the way in which it is governed for the society as a whole. And this last sentence was my opinion, which Alhamdulillah I am entitled to. This is what I meant when I said I am not trying to shove it down anyoes’ throat, but as far as the very principles of Islam regardless of the treatment we may receive from our rulers, then it Islam in that regard leaves no room for personal choice. Yes you may choose to believe, say and do whatever you wish, but think of the Hereafter before you think of the dunya.
I hope my words reached you as I intended, kindly and nicely.
I am sorry, I forgot to add:
Would fewer pray? Allahu A’lam. That is a hypothetical question, and in Islam we do not question that which hasn’t happened yet.
And to be honest, I do not believe that this is the point behind the law that is implemented in this regard. The law that is implemented is because it is Shari’ah and something that is found in the Sunnah, by which a country is to be governed. So the point is not to force someone to pray because it is thought that he/she would not do so otherwise, the point is establishing the principles of Shari’ah, as Allah did not leave the prayer optional to anyone, it is something that is obligatory upon every muslim.
I apologize for the long reply.
By the way, in light of this reasoning, was Abu Bakr As Siddiq radiallahu anhu wrong in taking action against those who refused to pay zakaat? So just look at how muslims who belong to the best of generations started becoming lenient in obligatory matters only shortly after the death of the Prophet. Was Abu Bakr to ignore this because of the principle of niyya?
I read the first Hadith both in Arabic and English and it does not require stopping for prayer at a specific time. If you read it carefully, it is the prophet stressing the importance of the prayer. Note the use of the word “I was about to order”. The prophet did not order the houses to be burned. The correct context is that people may sleep and miss the 3esha prayer and the prophet is reminding them in strong words that it is compulsory.
Also, note Islam singled out only the Friday prayer as the one that is required at a specific time and that people should stop trading for that prayer period.
Regarding other Ahadith, it is not relevant to the discussion.
Carol, sorry we are digressing here. I promise to stop
Aafke,
All of the ahadeeth are to be found in the Sahih Al Bukhari as I pointed out in the brackets, which is the most authentic book after the Book of Allah.
Carol,
Thank you for being such a diplomat.
Abu Sinan,
I am not going to question your aqeedah, but the ahadith I provided are not MY ahadeeth! Yes the narrators are not infallible, but if you know anything about the science of ahadeeth you would understand why the ones I posted are classified as sahih. Yes it was narrated by men, but the men who narrated them were the sahaba. I intentionally did not chose the ahad ahadeeth, rather I chose ahadeeth that have many chains of narrators and as such it is less likely that so many of the sahaba would err in narrating from the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. Besides, Allah mentions in the Qur’an, as well as Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam mentions it in the Sunnah, that we are to follow the way of our Prophet and the way of the believers, meaning the sahaba. Allah mentions in the Qur’an that He has left us His and something similar to it. This “something similar” is the Sunnah of our Messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. Sunnah is what explains the Qur’an. From where do you know how to pray? From where do you get detailed description of wudhoo and ghusl? From where do you get the description of zakaat? From where do you get the description for performing Hajj? And so on and so forth. Allah mentions all of this in the Qur’an, and Sunnah is something that Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was inspired with in order to explain the Qur’an. Finally, the best of generation were the ones who made sure that you and I today would be provided with those explanations. So do we pick and choose from the ahadeeth which ones to follow? This is not the way of Muslims, to pick and choose, this is the way of disbelievers and it is the reason why they went astray.
I am really not sure what is wrong with conveying the words of Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. Even if you do not choose to accept the ahadeeth (which as I said is what explains the Qur’an for the most part), then still, if you pay attention to Qur’an and contemplate on its meaning, it is not an advocate for the view you are supporting.
But this is up to you as I will not be questioned for your actions, all I can do is convey.
*Correction:
I meant to say:
“Allah mentions in the Qur’an that He has left us His *BOOK* and something similar to it”.
Saudi US,
I am very well aware, in regards to the first hadith, that Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam did not mean to say the he would burn the houses, and that he was only stressing the obligation and importance of prayer.
I am also very well aware that it is not compulsory to close all businesses on any given day except for Friday.
However, is it haram for the Saudi govenrment to enforce this rule? The truth is that it is not haram. It is how they choose to govern the country, thus obedience to the government is compulsory because they are not ordering people with disobedience to Allah.
As such, the rest of the ahadeeth are very relevant, because WE THE SUBJECTS were ordered to obey the government (whether we like it or not) in everything as long is it does not mean disobedience to Allah.
Should I feel bad now because I am saying Allah said and the Prophet said?
Sorry but I don’t.
dalioness,
You write “I do not speak an opinion unless it is based on the Qur’an and Sunnah.”
Based on YOUR understanding of The Qur’an and Sunnah. It might not be mine or others. The point here is that you, or others, do not have a RIGHT to force your understanding on others.
As “Saudi in the USA” so properly show, even if you accept the validity of any given hadith, there will certainly be numerous different ways of understanding it.
Is it your contention that if one person understands it one way (either personally or through a scholar) and another person understands it another way, that one should have the right to FORCE their understanding of it on the other?
As “Saudi” said, there is no specific time for any prayer other than the Friday prayer. The rest can be said between a set of given times, those times actually being rather expansive in nature.
Should anyone have the right to FORCE me to pray right after the adhan, or as per the Sunnah, have the right to pray within the guidlines set by the Prophet himself?
There are dozens of different ways of understanding and expressing most aspects of religious practice in Islam. Does one have a right to force their understanding on others?
Saudi is a good case here. Should they have a right to ban some religious practices of other Muslim sects and groups that they do not agree with? I am not a Shi’a, but should the Saudi authorities have a right to ban Shi’a holidays and practices? I am not Sufi, but should they have a right to ban some Sufi practices? This is an important point because they do ban things in Saudi that have to do with some Sufi and Shi’a practices.
If they have a right to force others into (or from) religious practices, would you like it if you were forced into doing (or not doing) things you do not agree with? You quote ahadith about following rulers, would you follow Shi’ite practices if you had to live in a Shia country where these laws were forced on others?
The Prophet and his companions didnt do a lot of things that we do. If we strive to follow their example, 100% literally, then I would humbly have to ask you why you are using a computer? I am not aware of computers back then, nor of the electricity to power them. I hope you do not use any trasport besides a horse or a camel, and I am certain you never fly or use a toilet. None of these existed then.
Toilet paper? Out of the question…….soap, anti bacterial hand wash? Nope………modern medicine………nope.
See, the problem is that there are people who tend to miss the forest for the trees. They miss the spirit of why the Prophet did something, and chase a literalistic standpoint instead.
This is why we still have Muslims fighting how to properly eat with their fingers, as the Prophet did, instead of seeing that the Prophet was the cleanest of people and most certainly would NEVER have used his hands to eat had he a fork and spoon.
This is why we have Muslims with teeth falling out because they refuse to use anything other than the miswak to clean their teeth, because the Prophet did it, when it is clear that the Prophet would have used floss, a toothbrush, and mouthwash if he was here today.
People like this miss the forest for the trees. You need to get past the literalism and wanting to follow every word for word, and get to the real meaning of what the Prophet taught.
It is amazing how people can quote hadith until the sun sets yet not understand the point he was trying to make.
You can convey the words of the prophet all you want, it doesnt mean that we are going to see what he said, or the spirit of what he said, in the same manner. You think The Qur’an doesnt support my views, yet I would say it does.
The different point of view, when looking at the same exact things, is EXACTLY why one group should not FORCE their views on others. I certainly do not agree with you, but I would never force you to bend to my opinion. Too bad you do not feel the same.
When one group feels that they know better than others and then feels they have a right to impose their views of others then it becomes a “might makes right” situation and always leads to violence.
You write “But this is up to you as I will not be questioned for your actions, all I can do is convey.”
That is kind of funny, you spend all of this time telling us the Saudis have a right to force others to follow their reading of the religion, then say “all I can do is convey”.
Would that the Saudi establishment thought the same way.
dalioness,
I am sorry to disagree with you. I am a son of a merchant and I know the impact of closing shops on the pocket book, which does harm to the citizens. Islam has given us a framework for behavior and rule. However, it also allowed us to adjust the rules to fit the situations.
I do not advocate disobedience. Actually if you look at my track of comments at Crossroad Arabia, you will know that I am in favor of the current system. However, our King has initiated a process of reform for the country. The reduction of control for the Religious Police is something I am advocating. As part of this reform I would also like the relaxation of some of the existing rules that do not add value.
You may choose to make every decision solely based on obedience to an authority even when they over reached. I have another outlook, I am both a Muslim and a Citizen of a 21st century nation. As part of being a citizen I hold some opinions that do not contradict Islam, but contradict some of the rules that exist today. I also, do not think there is anything unislamic in holding opinions against rules.
Spot on “Saudi”.
Abu Sinan,
Nowhere did I FORCE anything upon anyone. I do not think that everyone should have the freedom to interpret the Qur’an and the Sunnah according to their own intellect. the Qur’and and the Sunnah are to be understood upon the understanding of the best of generations.
Should Saudi ban sufi or shia practises? YES. Because many of their principles are newly invented and in direct contradiction to the Book of Allah. This is the result of relying upon ones’ own intellect without referring to the understanding and practise of the Salaf As Salih.
Would I obey the shia or the sufi government? The answer is yes, as long as what they order me with does not cause me to disobey Allah (commit haram).
There are metaphorical and literal aspects of the Qur’an Al Kareem as well as the Sunnah. As Ali ra said, had this religion been based upon logic alone, we would be wiping the bottoms of our kufs not the tops. Yet, we wipe the tops simply because Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam did so, without questioning the logic behind it.
As for the rest of examples you have put forth, toilet paper, bad teeth, etc etc, it is something you assume about me, that I am somehow backward I guess. Those examples have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and yes I would say that those who today clean themselves with three pebbles instead of toilet paper are not recognizing the blessings of Allah. As for miswak, yes it is Sunnah,(I use both, miswak and toothpaste) and it is the only thing that the Prophet cleaned his teeth with. Yet, were his teeth bad because he had no toothpaste? NO! Bad teeth are the result of poor hygiene, not the product used. My great grandmother never once in her lifetime used toothpaste, she only used miswak, and she had all her teeth intact and healthy!
Yes Abu Sinan, it is true that I do not speak of the Book of Allah based on MY opinion and understanding of it. I speak of it based upon the understanding of those who preceeded us and explained it for us. Those who applied every single ayah of it in their every day lives. Those who used to say “We hear and obey”.
I pick up the Qur’an, the ahadeeth, the tafseer, I refer to scholars of past and present if something is unclear to me ( as Allah says “Ask those who know if you do not know”, He subhanahu wa ta’ala does not say “understand my Book as you wish”).
Yes there exists what is called “allowed type of differing” in Islam, based upon the understanding of the salaf, but when? When both opinions, rulings, etc have its’ basis in the Qur’an and the Sunnah.
When it comes down to what is obligatory, there is no differing allowed. As such, there is no differing allowed as to whether or not you should obey or disobey the government based on something you see that you do not like. There is no differing allowed as to whether or not you should publicly criticize the government, as the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said that if we see some wrong in them, we are to SECRETLY advise them if we are able to do so, if not, we ARE TO BE PATIENT. How else am I suposed to understand his words other then their apparent meaning? Should I say, yes the Prophet said all this, but in my situation it is OK to publicly criticise?
In the end, Allah says He has made this earth spacious. So if someone feels that they can not properly practise their religion in whatever the country they are in, well then, they are free to move about and find a country where they can do so.
Your reasoning about the technology and modern development ( my using a computer) is out of line. Who said that we are not to take advantage of modern technology? Again, it is something you assumed about me, that I am taking everything 100% literally! Had Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said using anything other then the pen is forbidden, I would not be using a computer. If he had said using anything other that camels in order to travel is forbidden, I would not be driving a car. You have to be able to differentiate things that are attributed to be a part of Shari’ah, in case of prayer and obeying the rulers and not speaking out against the government, and things that are left up to ones’ choice. If I say it is not from Islam to openly criticize the government, I am not a liar and I am not attributing anything new to Islam. Yet if I say (may Allah protect me from it) that using toothpaste or toilet paper is against Islam, then I am either a liar or ignorant.
If someone to this day chooses to use his fingers when eating, what is wrong with that? As long as he/she is not saying that fork and spoon are haram, nothing wrong with that.
You said to me the following:
” That is kind of funny, you spend all of this time telling us the Saudis have a right to force others to follow their reading of the religion, then say “all I can do is convey”.
Would that the Saudi establishment thought the same way.”
Actually, I nowhere said that the Saudi has the right to enforce upon others “their reading of the religion”. I informed you of what the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said, which is a very very small amount of his words and the practice of the sahaba on the topic we are discussing.
So yes, as someone who has no authority over you, all I can do is convey. But those who are in authority have the right to enforce laws upon people AS LONG AS IT IS NOT SOMETHING HARAM.
If a husband orders his wife to pluck her eyebrows as an example, she should never obey him in this because it means disobedience to Allah.
If however he ordered her to make banana bread for him , she should obey him in this because he is not asking her to do something haram.
So no Abu Sinan, I am not trying to enforce the view of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam upon you and yes I am only conveying. If you choose to understand the Qur’an and the Sunnah by relying on your intellect alone, than that is on you as well.
The very reason why we have so many sects in Islam (which Allah forbids in His Book) is for this exact reason: people giving meaning to Qur’an and Sunnah without refering to the best of generations.
So if you are fair and just, you have to admit that I nowhere said that Saudi has the right to do this or that, I was only conveying what a muslim subject is to do in a situation where he dislikes something from their ruler. In light of that, yes I was only conveying and nothing more. It is from a persons’ Islam to assume the best about others, so I will in this case assume that I did not convey my thoughts properly.
Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh
Saudi US,
Now we are getting closer to the core of the misunderstanding.
No one is saying that you are not entitled to your opinions. And of course, holding opinions about certain rules that may contradict the principles of Islam is not wrong at all. The point of disagreement is speaking about the government by way of criticizing some of these rules PUBLICLY. The truth is the truth, it is not allowed in Islam. What else can I say other then this, since this is what Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam advised us with? I clearly said that I do not deem Saudi, just as any other country, to be perfect. However, as in everything I do, I seek out the good and that which is beneficial individually as well as for a society as a whole. Not even the rulers or Saudi scholars claim that it is a perfect country, but it is a country that establishes the Shari’ah. Some if the rules we are not going to like, whether it be Saudi or any other, even non-Muslim country. So, regardless the loss or inconvenience we may suffer as a result of that particular rule, as long as it is not causing us to disobey Allah, then we MUST obey and BE PATIENT.
I am sure that there are many Saudis who have absolutely no problem with the very same things you or someone else may have a problem with. But my point is this:
IF THE RULE IS CAUSING YOU TO COMMIT HARAM, THEN DO NOT OBEY. IF IT IS NOT CAUSING YOU TO DO HARAM YET CAUSING YOU HARDSHIP, THEN BE PATIENT WHILE MAKING LOTS OF DUA. IF YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO SECRETLY ADVISE THE RULER, BY ALL MEANS DO SO. IF NOT, BE PATIENT AND CONTINUE MAKING DUA.
You said it yourself that the current King is taking some action in the reform of the country. Insha’Allah it is heading in the right direction and insha’Allah it will not become lax in religion. Insha’Allah the things that are causing people hardship are corrected. You see, perhaps this is a result of someones’ dua or someones’ secret advice to the ruler?
Again, I hope you take my words as I intended them, kindly and nicely. The capitol letters are to highlight my sole argument, not to scream at YA!
Dalioness,
I will not respond any further to your posts. You make it clear that you would force others who do not think like yourself to YOUR religious practices.
You say some that some sects or groups have practices that contradict The Qur’an, but that is YOUR belief, yet you feel the right to want to ban other people’s practices and beliefs based on YOUR understanding of Islam and The Qur’an.
You write ” am not trying to enforce the view of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam upon you and yes I am only conveying.”
You are convey what YOU think is the view of the Prophet. That is exactly it. It is what YOU think the view of the Prophet is. You might or might not be right. However, it should be my RIGHT to choose to follow what you, or others, THINK is the view of the Prophet. I have the right for myself to decide exactly what I, MYSELF, think the view of the Prophet would be and then apply that to my life. NO ONE has the right to first decide what the truth is and then FORCE me to follow it, whether it is by making their opinions law or working the culture in such a way to force people into follwing their “truths”.
I am being fair and just. Basically what you are saying that if the Saudi authorities THINK that Islam demands things from us then they have a right to force people to follow it. What I am telling you is that I do not agree with much of what the Saudi religious authorities claim is Islam, therefor I refuse to follow it. The problem here is that you DID convey your thoughts properly, I just didnt agree with them.
Carol, it would seem you get all viewpoints here, even the extremists. I guess that is good in that everyone can see what these people are like.
Dalioness,
I think you are a convert, so am I. I hope that the zeal of your conversion eventually settles and that you decide that you, nor others, have the right to decide what is right and what is wrong and force others to follow it.
If you are not a convert, I hope you come back to a reasonable understand of religion and realise that neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to force their views on religion upon others, nor do they have a right to force them to follow it.
You choose to follow Islam the way YOU think you should, and the rest of us can choose to follow it the way WE think we should. I’ll promise not to force my beliefs upon you and hope that one day you will come to a place in your life where you do not feel a need to force YOUR beliefs on others.
dalioness,
If I take what you wrote regarding not questioning the authority, we should close all news papers and fire all the lawyers tomorrow. They are committing Haram as when they questioned the ruling of the Qatif girl.
Sorry to tell you my friend we are not getting close. You are in the 7th century and I am in the 21st. I can not bridge that gap over an internet discussion.
Regards,
Abu Sinan, I am not a convert. That does not make me better or worse, a muslim is a muslim (I know it is not what you implied).
Yes, feel free to disagree, and live your life as you wish.Again, I am not forcing my beliefs upon anyone. If you choose to provide your own interpretation to this deen, then feel free to do so. We all in the end answer for ourselves. If you live in Saudi and it affects your deen so much, then by all means leave, find a country that you view is better.
Alhamdulillah , I am not claiming to be the most knowledgable person. I do believe that the understanding of the deen the way the first generations of muslims understood it is the best understanding, and Alhamdulillah this religion is very clear for me. Unlike you, I did not tell you that your whole understanding of the deen is wrong, I disagreed with your understanding of this particular issue. I provided evidences for my understanding of the matter.Thus I am excused and it is upon you to disprove it (not with your feelings and opinions and interpretations) with daleel. You have to be able to refute those evidences if you want to convince me otherwise.
This time, I will assume that it is your misinterpretation of my words that led you to believe that I am enforcing anything upon anyone, and I am surprised that you, being a man, are so sensitive in a discussion such as this one that it clouds your ability to try and understand people in the best manner.
You speak of “views of religion”. If you only want to follow the guidance of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, then stick to it and you will be safe insha’Allah. That is, if you take anything from the sources of the Sunnah. I don’t know and it is not my business.
I find the words of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam very clear, especially those on the issue of the government and rulers, there is no hidden meaning behind them nor do they leave room for various interpretations.
If I am an extremist in your eyes, then that is your opinion which you are entitled to as well. Whatever you say against me does not harm me one bit Alhamdulillah, but it is not from good akhlaaq on your part.
“…..everyone can see what these people are like”?
What people? More importantly, what exactly do you know about me? You know nothing about me just as I do not know anything about you. Again, go back to the basics of a good akhlaaq.
I say many sects have ideologies and practices that are either haram or have no basis in the Qur’an and are in direct opposition to Qur’an. You may not like to accept the reality of things, but this is the reality. You are throwing me into a sect of extremists as well, and I do not get offended at all, nor does it harm me. yet it was Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam who spoke harshly about those who rebel/openly criticize the rulers, but you don’t see me calling you an extremist, right? Right?
Lastly, you begin by saying you will not respond further to my posts, yet in the very same post almost the whole comment is a response to me!
Did I ask you to respond to me? NO! Do I get offended that you wont respond to me? NO! have I intended this as a debate? NO! If you notice, my very first post was not directed at anyone. You were the one that addressed me with your post, so I responded.
I am leaving this discussion with a calm mind and heart Alhamdulillah, just as it was throughout the whole discussion. Insha’Allah you are as well.
Saudi US,
Whether the 7th or the 21st century, Islam is Islam. You have to resolve your inner conflicts in light of the teachings of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.
Once you have resolved what is internal, then and only then focus on the external aspects.
I am just not sure how you will make the desired change in Saudi happen over the internet without discussing it with those who have the power to make the changes.
Alhamdulillah I spent my time here by at least conveying some words of our Prophet. One thing we can never get back is our time so we have to use it wisely.
I would think that the prophet, if he wanted to remonstrate with anyone, would always be calm and friendly. Not use violence and force.
So anyone, and I don’t care which leader after the prophet it is, who thinks he needs force to implement the rules of Islam, must be mistaken. I also concluded that the prophet is always aware of extenuating circumstances, and made provisions for such.
And I remember reading that, according to Ayesha: If there are two roads to chose from, the prophet would always chose the easy one.
I can not really agree with what I know (which is very little compared to all of you) that the prophet would agree with the disruptions the enforced prayertimes seem to cause (by what I read from people who live in KSA), or the coarse behaviour of the Muttawa.
Please (me being quite ignorant) correct me (friendly) if I’m wrong.
Aafke,
You are not wrong. The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam would indeed choose to make the religion easy, as he did say to make things easy for the people and to not make things difficult.
However, I am stressing the point that it is under no circumstances permissible to openly speak about the government, or to disobey them as long as what they are ordering the people does not cause disobedience to Allah. These are not my words but the words of our Prophet, whose guidance is the best guidance.
One thing we do have to keep in mind is that during the life of Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, people heard and obeyed. Even so, rules were implemented and not everyone liked them. But they obeyed.
Also, just because someone dislikes something, does it automatically mean that everyone will dislike the same thing? I would not agree with that, if that was said. In our times, I do see the need for discipline, with all the fitnah that is spreading. Can anyone accuse me of liking the discipline? If yes, why?
Perhaps some of the tactics are a bit harsh and not in line with Islam, but is it permissible to openly proclaim a whole muslim nation to be hypocrites? If yes, why? And what is the benefit of the same?
Was Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam then wrong for implementing the hudood for zina, alcohol, stealing, apostacy, etc? What is ones’ concept of “no compulsion in religion”? What is ones’ concept of upholding the Shari’ah? If Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi says “don’t do such and such”, what is our excuse for doing it anyway?
If the sky is blue and it is established that it is blue, how can one say that no, the sky is green simply because perhaps they would rather for it to be green?
If you study the Qur’an you will see that the ayah which speaks of no compulsion in religion was abrogated by another ayah in Surah Al Tawbah, which orders muslims to fight until there is no more fitnah. If you read the tafsir on this ayah, you will see that the word “fitnah” for example was interpreted in this case as disbelief, polytheism.
So since there is no compulsion in religion (and not that there is, but we must understand what compulsion in religion really means), how do we explain the many battles of Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, and those of Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali ra, in which they fought to spread Islam? Were they forcing people to accept Islam (no) or were they obeying Allah by seeking to establish his deen throughout the lands?
Why should Saudi for example allow the innovated practices of sufis, shia, etc to be practiced in Saudi, when the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam clearly said that whoever accomodates an innovator (esp in the sacred land) upon him is the curse of Allah, the angels and the mankind? So how is anyone supposed to interpret these words (sahih Bukhari) other than according to its apparent meaning?
And truly, how are we to know what the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam would do in our times and our current situation? How are we for example to know that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam would not fight those of the shia who commit shirk, or say what they say about the Qur’an? How are we to know that he would not fight the shirk of some sufis? Wasn’t this what all of his battles were about, to establish Tawheed and to extinguish shirk to Allah? This could go on and on, and we all can have our opinions, but it is important to refer to religion as a whole, not bits and pieces of it.
And lastly, whether or not the Prophet would agree with the disruptions the enforced prayer times seem to cause, we don’t know this,because he is not amongst us, but what we do know is that he clearly said to not disobey those in authority unless they are ordering with what is haram, and he clearly said to not criticize the rulers publicly, and if the ruler is unjust he still said we are not to disobey them and we are to be patient, and if able, advise them in secret. These words of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam with all due respect are very clear and cary no ambiguous meanings.
So, the criticism of Saudi in these comments, did it bring about any change? If not, what was the benefit of doing so, especially since it is not allowed in Islam? we should keep in mind that Allah will insha’Allah recompense us for any injustice we may have suffered in this world, but for this to happen we have to obey Allah and His Messenger first.
Sorry all, but I have to tell this loony some strong words.
dalioness here are Quotes from your post:
:
“In our times, I do see the need for discipline, with all the fitnah that is spreading. Can anyone accuse me of liking the discipline?”
“Why should Saudi for example allow the innovated practices of sufis, shia, etc to be practiced in Saudi”
“in Surah Al Tawbah, which orders muslims to fight until there is no more fitnah.”
Note Saudi Arabia has a minority Shia.
The reason for fitnah is dangerous takfiri thinking like yours, that is turning the Arabic and Islamic world into hell. Where brother Muslims are killing each other.
Get in your time machine and set the dial to 700 and you will find a world of your liking. Actually there were people talking about fitnah back then. Oh well I can not solve your problem, but at least we won’t have to listen to your intolerant messages.
Bon Voyage
When everything is forbidden by law, there is nothing left for one to remain virtuous about. I find it very disturbing, and very hypocritical when the government outlaws basically everything, and leaves no room for people to receive blessings by choosing of their own free will to not indulge in such “sins.” Muslims know that they gain blessings from their own personal jihads, yet when you’re not allowed such small battles as making yourself pray, you gain no blessings.
Likewise, the government has no place in telling people when to pray to “save their souls,” because (from a theocratic basis), you can’t guarantee who is praying for the “correct,” reasons.
The problem with the Salafis is that non Muslims think we’re all like them .
Dalioness
how can you compare prayers to zakah o zina ?
Moreover you might have missed that the prayer of the believer who performed it in bad will , will never be accepted
No compulsion in the religion means that the part of the religion belonging to the private sphere, must remain private .
That’s why some of us ask for reviewing death penalty against apostates , cause the hadeeth must be taken in context .
If our acts are not meant as war against Islam and remain private, then cannot be punished by earthly laws .
Islam is the only religion which has a logic, try to use brain .
It is evident from all the postings and views that (not surprisingly) when the subject is religion — any religion; not only Islam — that there are diverse views and perspectives and people have strong emotions on this subject.
Again, I believe the exchanges of these views are good and healthy especially if they are presented in a respectful manner…which has overall been the case.
I am purposely refraining from injecting specific comments as this is a subject where so many are better informed than me and I am digesting what has been shared.
We have learnt to live with the fact that there are different madhabs and sects .
Unfortunately now this has led to extremism and to differentiations which do not belong to Islam .
For example I must label myself as moderate Muslim, I assume .
The problem is how all this, is perceived by non Muslims : they think Arab world for example is a monolite when is not . In addition to cultural differences now we have those coming from within the religion .
Saudi US,
For your information, I am certainly not a takfiri and the sin is upon you in calling me that. Did I pronounce anyone to be a kafir?
Learn how to remain diplomatic and respectful even with those with whom you disagree, instead of calling people names. Akhlaaq is the very basic aspect of Islam which obviously you are lacking, so how about you busy yourself with learning it and implementing it before you advance to anything else? It would serve you much better on Yawmul Qiyamah.
You do not have to read my comments and why should I not comment, sister Carol has opened the topic and she should be the one to tell me to stop posting if she finds it offensive, as it is her blog! So just skip my comments, or better yet, refrain from name calling and bad manners, that is more in line with the Sunnah, don’t you think? Or is that you like to dish out but you can’t take it? At least I explain my views and provide evidence for them, at least I ask questions that surely you must be able to answer, yet not a single one has been answered nor have you given me any interpretations of the ahadeeth or the ayah I mentioned, yet you have the audacity to say that I am somehow misunderstanding everything. According to the theory of you and Abu Sinan, that we all should be free to interpret the Qur’an and Sunnah for ourselves why do you deny me the very same thing you are advocating? You are quite strange, yet still, I won’t call you any names because it is not befitting for a muslim to do so.So fear Allah and be just, it is closer to taqwa.
I have no problem whatsoever, it rather seems to be you. You advocate a principle yet you try to stop me from the very same thing you supposedly are advocating!
You seem to disagree with the explanation of the ayah I mentioned in Surah Al Tawbah. Know that you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Rasulullah and the sahaba who explained its’ meaning! And pretty much anyone who is a Sunni! So are the sahaba takfiris now? Fear Allah, thats all I can tell you.
Bon voyage? You should know that Rasulullah suffered many things from the hands of the disbelievers, yet he still remained patient and gave them their rights, so how about giving me my rights as a muslim? Or perhaps you do not consider me to be a muslim?
I could really care less about your opinion of me, or your behaviour towards me, it harms me not one bit, it only harms you and Alhamdulillah Allah is the best of judges.
Balqis, I suggest you try using your brain since you obviously have no clue of what I am talking about! I suggest you learn the difference between madhabs and sects. Why must you label yourself anything other then muslim? Who said this? Differences in the religion have always existed, they did not start NOW. Yet you should also learn about the permissible and impermissible differing. I will leave it at that.
I guess now you all have become more knowledgeable then the Prophet and the best of generations! You would not even KNOW HOW to PRAY if it was not for them! So yes, your opinions and understandings hold no weight whatsoever comparing to theirs! Instead of rambling and voicing opinions, you should try and explain how you came to your conclusions!
The order is this:
QUR’AN
SUNNAH
IJTIHAD
Not this:
OPINION
OPINION
OPINION…..
QUR’AN…
SUNNAH ( MAYBE,IF IT SUPPORTS ONES’ VIEWS)
With all respect I also agree with Balqi’s comments that particulary in these more recent times the distinctions and perceptions within religions and sects is becoming more apparent thanks (or no thanks…) to the media and to groups who commit or perform certain acts or messages.
I don’t think the closing down for prayer necessarily promotes more piety here. Yes, the muttawas are there to scurry people to the mosque, but most who aren’t interested in praying escape, so it ends up just being a nuisance instead of accomplishing any real good, as is true with many of the restrictions in Saudi . On most days, malls and many other shops and businesses are all closed between 12:00 p.m. and 4:00 p.m. to accommodate the lunch hr. and the 2 afternoon prayers. Then there is a brief period of business before they must close again for half an hour for the evening prayer. Between the evening prayer and the night prayer there is only one hour. Then they close again for another half hour. Which results in the fact that if you have shopping to do, you must do it in the morning (which many women can’t because we can’t drive), dodge the prayers to try and get your stuff done in late afternoon or early evening or wait until later at night to go out and have a shopping trip (by that time your husband is too tired to take you). A lot of people just use the prayer time to move from one activity to the next. Witness the traffic jams between the two evening prayers. And it doesn’t prevent immorality either. EVERYTHING happens here, just not openly. In fact, I think the severe restrictions here actually promote forbidden things. The teenagers have nothing else to do except figure out schemes of how to get away with stuff. Which actually is a lot more sinister. I usually spend my summers in Syria. They don’t close for prayer mandatorily, but the mosques are still full. And I don’t see the teenagers acting like they do here, even though they are mixed. They are used to each other, so it’s no big deal. Totally different atmosphere. Just my opinion.
We differ also in the details of the way we pray, in case you never heard of the issue
Dsnt make a difference to me if Ibhadis raise hands or not and am not entitled to decide who’s Muslim or not but is a difference
We refer to scholars when we want to know which hadeeth are valid and which not or how to interpret Quranic verses, cause they are more knowledgeable than us, yet they differ in opinions
Like it or not you have to make a choice
Problems start when religious believes are applied to politics and social life
When OBL comes and picks verses out of context and history, that’s a big damage cause people who tend to learn religion without understanding, then follow and blow themselves up believing to be martyrs
When “some countries” approve school books in which hatred against jewsh is promoted, that’s a damage for dialogue
Donna – I like your comments on putting Saudi life into perspective and especially the realities which are faced here that many from outside Saudi may not know about.
Carol
Great title!
Should add that I am a Christain from UK, but well travelled, and have always found it exhilarating to witness a group of Muslims praying together on their mats, totally immersed in their personal faith, while the rest of the world goes by.
That surely is to be admired and to a certain extent wish that us Christians could be as devoted.
I also read the comments with interest and agree that the intentions of one’s heart has far more relevance than the enforcement of a practice.
I can also sympathise with the “womens lot” of the gauntlet of shopping and prayer schedule and now begin to understand why the muslim men (asian) in UK did the shopping.
However, it saddens me that instead of uniting in faith, we humans have a tendency to splinter into segments and groups and then end up hating each other for the differences we create.
I was in Scotland for Christmas and Hogmanay (New year) and went to the church I used to attend 15 odd years ago and found that the majority of the people were well over 50 yrs old. and the church was practically empty.
“Would Fewer Pray”. Although a hypothetical question, the simple answer from a UK Christian perspective would have to be, YES!
People drift away when they lose the relevance of their faith, speaking for christainity, of course.
The authorities in KSA must have a good reason why the “enforced” call to prayer came into being.
Sometimes, sadly enough, you just cannot talk to people. This is what happens when people are convinced that they know exactly what God thinks and demands of people, and then decide they have a right to force it upon others.
They just cannot get the point. They say they know what God and the Prophet wanted, yet they cannot get it through their heads that others might not view it in the same way.
When pressed the resort to talk of banning and outlawing practices besides theirs, then wonder when people call them a fanatic.
It is discussions like this that more and more lead me to believe that moderate Muslims will someday have to take up the fight, physically, with the extremists. I know, as moderates, this is something we do not wish to do. Violence and death is the way of the extremists, but there might come a point where we have little choice, other than living in a world controled by these people.
This is one reason I could not live in a society where these people are present in any large numbers. I would get myself into trouble. The first time someone told me that Mozart, Beethoven or Albrect Durer were haram there would be issues….lol.
Winslie — Welcome back! you’ve been gone too long from posting and we always enjoy your comments and views.
Abu Sinan — I like your points but I do not agree with the last set of comment in regards that moderate Muslims will someday have to take up the fight, physically, with the extremists. I think such an action would be a no-win situation for anyone….not that I have a solution to offer at the moment.
dalioness,
You can claim that you are polite all you want, but your message is of hate. Calling for oppressing people is worse than any names. By the way name calling is different than stating the facts. I am stating a fact.
Sorry to tell you Takfiri’s do exactly what you do. 1) Call what other Muslims do and believe Fitnah 2) Call for oppressing them 3) Call for fighting to eliminate the Fitnah. This is exactly what you called for in one of your messages. Muslims have fought amongst each other for centuries based on these words. In short you wear the name well. If you do not believe in these things then it it is time to wake up.
If you think insulted you by a name, think of how much you insult me by calling for fighting and oppressing Shia. I have many friends that follow that faith.
By the way having an opinion is part of having a brain. I will be happy to talk more when you start using yours and stop relying in narrow interpretation of Hadith and Qur’an. You are not our mufti, so I do not want to rely on your interpretation.
Again, you can claim that you’re as polite as you can, but your message is of intolerance and I for one see through it.
Carol, I am really not into these heated discussions, but I think some of the things dalioness is promoting are dangerous and require a reply. My apologies and I won’t feel offended if you delete my post in the case I am going beyond what you accept at your blog.
Here’s some interesting news:
A friend of mine was in Jeddah last month and he was in a mall when he noticed a couple of shops open during prayer. He went in to one shop and asked the clerk how he could remain open. He said the muttaween rarely come around anymore and the owner said to leave the shop open. They’ve been doing it for a while now without any problems. Could this be the start of King Abdullah’s reform or just nudge from the shop owners themselves to change things?
http://13martyrs.blogspot.com/
Saudi US,
Your last post goes to show that you are the one who is not using his brain! Honestly! Either you are intentionally manipulating my words or you just don’t get it! I believe you just don’t get it! I called to none of the things you mentioned here! I gave no interpretations of my own! Those interpretations are those of the sahaba, read tafseer, read sahih ahadeeth, etc.
I never called to spilling of anyones’ blood here, may Allah guide you! Instead of replying to me in this deceitful way, give me YOUR interpretation of the things I have mentioned here! More importantly, please make sure YOUR interpretation is not YOUR opinion. Opinions are nothing to me unless they are in line with that of :
THE PROPHET
SAHABA
Stop being deceitful and making it look like I am inventing something here, when I am only referring to sources.
Unlike you, I am not trying to win anyone to my side, I really could care less if anyone agrees with me or not, one should agree with the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and his companions. You want to throw their interpreations behind your back and come forth with your own. That is such a shme since they are the ones who made it possible for you to have the mushaf today, in the least.
So go on with your accusations, you know in your heart that they are out of place.
I’ve put some serious thoughts to it: Would fewer pray?
No: Those who are truly devout will pray regardless, those who would not, aren’t doing so now.
And I’ve heard from some expats I know here, that indeed anything is possible anyway in KSA, and if you go to a party thrown by one of the princes, there is any kind of alcohol known on this planet.
Hypocrites.
dalioness,
No one is being manipulating. Here are your exact words, you exposed your sinister believes:
“Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam would not fight those of the shia who commit shirk”
In this you call Shia Mushrikeen and we all know what is the punishment of that. By the way this was not based on Hadith since teh prophet was dead when the Shia’s came into being. So it is an opinion.
“Wasn’t this what all of his battles were about, to establish Tawheed and to extinguish shirk to Allah? ”
Here you call for fighting in the sense of using weapons type of fighting not having a dialog. So if you put the 2 together, you are for fighting Shia’s and extinguishing them or their believes. That is Takfiri ideology by any definition.
Regarding answering your questions. Look at your posts they are long and contain 10′s of questions each. You want me to answer something ask 1 at a time. If I attempt to answer all your questions I will need 2 days non stop. There was one Hadith I was interested in and I provided my answer to that.
Peace…
Saudi US,
When you quote me quote the context as well.
You are very wrong, i am not calling to fighting anyone. You should leanr more about the khawarij and their ideology, shia and their ideology, etc.
If someone worships/invokes other then Allah, what is this?
Yet, i am still not making takfir of anyone as I am not qualified to do so, and takfir cannot be made upon masses of people anyway.
It is your lack of knowledge and desire for unity based upon the false principles that prevents you from understanding anything I said.
As such, it is useless to discuss anything with you.
P.S. fighting innovation and shirk is not necessarily by way of weapons.
So if Saudi does not allow the innovated practices of sufis and shia in their country, that in itself is fighting them. You have your own definition according to which you label people as you see fit. Remember, Yawmul Qiyamah is near.
dalioness,
So if I am misquoting you, which I do not believe I am. Go on the record and say that you are OK with letting the minority 5-10% Shia in Saudi Arabia to practice their own brand of religion. If you do not then tell me what will you do if they refuse the order to stop doing what they do? Note no one will accept restrictions on his/her religious duties peacefully.
Please, make your answer clear so I do not misinterpret it. Just a yes or no will suffice on the first 1.
If you want to talk about dialog, then use the word dialog not fighting. I knew the word fighting could be misinterpreted, but when I looked at the rest of your post I was sure you meant actual weapon fighting. I am giving you a chance to clear any misinterpretation I have.
Also note when you call someone Mushrik then you are a Takfiri. Shirk is a higher degree than Kufur.
By the way I have studied Islamic history extensively, so do not think I do not know about Khuarej. I just do not want to start another topic with you to be honest. I Just want to clear the misinterpretation, if it existed.
I also have a question for you. Have you lived in Saudi and understand what people live with there?
Rob — that is indeed interesting to hear about certain shops in Jeddah starting to remain open. I don’t know if it is specifically reforms on some shopkeepers taking a calculated risk who do not wish to lose revenues?
Saudi in US: You raise an excellent point on when one is commenting about any aspect of the Kigndom on whether they have lived here (and of course depending where one lives can have different impressions and perspectives overall as well).
All: I had no idea my contemplative thoughts on prayer and law in the Kingdom would raise so many issues and comments. In my own opinion I believe those who pray and pray from the heart will continue to do so regardless of where they are or if anyone says it is time to pray or not…and regardless of what religion they may follow. If they are true to their faith and what they believe are the rites of their faith, they will follow it.
Carol
Thanks for the welcome! Three weeks in the Highlands and East Coast of Scotland was a fabulous break from reality – well almost! Over indulgence being so easy!
I find your post generally thought provoking and gives me a glimpse of a world, far removed from my own.
You are also, if I may be so bold, a positive ambassador to your own American heritage and it is a joy to witness the lack of vitriol in your comments that appears to be the norm with many in the US.
We have a lot to learn from others in this world and if we are able to communicate our own thoughts and convictions in a polite manner without any name calling or “put-downs” then we will hopefully grow in joy.
Carol,
Thanks, I really think people do not realize how restrictive life can be in Saudi until they experience it. I lived in the west coast which is more liberal than other parts and still felt there were too many rules.
Again my apologies for calling dalioness for his statement. I guess he just pushed all the wrong buttons of what I feel is the type of intolerant thinking that is keeping the Middle East in flames.
Regards
I have found this discussion very informative, and it has enabled me to understand different views better.
Saudi in US,
I wondered, (and please dont’t answer this if you do not like, because it is very personal) You now live in the US, do you pray all the five prayers? It must be much more difficult in America. Would you leave off praying in KSA if there weren’t official prayerbreaks?
It just seems unlikely to me that true muslims only pray when forced. And it seems to me that the goverment of KSA views its citicens as moronic toddlers who can’t be trusted to be true muslims and follow the tenets of Islam on their own account.
I’ve always heard that Jeddah is a more relaxed place than Riyad. Perheaps it’s a test? to see what happens, and then give some slack to the rest of the country?
Aafke,
This answer my surprise you.
I will start by telling what I used to do in Saudi as a teenager working in my dads store most days after school. During prayer, most of the young guys like me had multiple places to dodge the Muttwai. We knew what times they will show up and just hid until they passed by us. By the way they also always came with a couple of uniformed policemen and made enough noise that you can see them coming a mile away. In short I really never prayed out of spite at the time. It was a game for us and we were always happy to win. What is also interesting is time for prayer was the best time to pass phone numbers and the like to girls, if I was lucky of course. There were few older men around and that made it a perfect time for those activities. My experience is that the closing of shops actually made us more mischievous as young men.
Now I am much older and I do pray. It is hard to keep up for me as I travel a great deal for work, but Islam also provides remedies for that. You can lump some of the prayers together when you travel. I am not saying I am the best of Muslims, but I do try and I know a great deal about the religion.
Regards
I forgot to answer the question about Jeddah. The west coast has a high percentage of immigrants that make the bulk of the Saudi Citizens there. Makkah and Madina are conservative due to the location of the holy mosques there. However, Jeddah has developed more liberal thinking than the rest of the country due to the benefits of having people from diverse ethnic backgrounds that have less conservative manners. Also, most of Saudi importers are found in Jeddah, which makes them more travelers and exposed to other cultures even before the oil boom. That tradition kept being passed on through the generations keeping the city more liberal and cosmopolitan.
Thank you for answering.
It doesn’t suprise me at all you taking the dodging of the muttawa as a sport. I think its the natural human response. Forbidding things makes them only more attractive. Gives them an extra spice.
“Saudi in the USA”, I applaud you for your measure in this conversation. I saw where mine was going so that is why I decided not to engage this person anymore.
I think your experience is common, people tend to rebel when they are forced to do something, it is human nature.
I think countries like Saudi Arabia and to a lesser extent, Iran, would become MORE religious if given freedom. What we see in these countries now is often fake, forced piety. If given the chance to worship openly and of their own accord a real religious atmosphere would grown, not the fake religion that is on display today.
If is the forced nature of religion in places like this that cause people to FLEE it. Islam was meant to be a religion that freed people, not enslaved them.
AbuSinan,
Thanks for being kinda.
I really thought the conversation was going to be civil. However, when he used the word Mushrikeen to describe Shia and Sufi’s I did get upset. As you know the word Shirk justifies killing people. We have over 1 million Shia in Saudi. He basically was justifying the elimination of 1 Million of my country men. It did make me angry for him to say these words of hate and I was not going to let him get away with it. This is especially true considering the amount of fighting between sects in Iraq. There is a danger of that spilling into Saudi if we advocate his thinking.
I may have went overboard a little with my sarcasm, but that was better than some words I was about to say to him.
By the way I agree with all what you said in your last post. We need more freedom to let people choose and show their Islamic spirit.
Winslie – thank you for your lovely comments and glad you had enjoyed a nice respite!
Saudi in US: I love the insights you have provided on how the cultural traditions and customs impacted on you as a young man and your views.
Aafke – you raised a great question on whether Saudis who are now living outside of KSA continue the tradition of praying five times per day where it is not enforced as such. And I don’t mean to say prayer is enforced in the Kingdom but if one is out and about when it is prayer time then men especially are expected to go to the mosque to pray. The muttawa have to be more careful with women because if it is “that time of the month” for a woman, then she is exempt from prayers and prohibited from entering a mosque as she is viewed as unclean. Of course she is also expected to make up the missed prayers during that time.
I will add that my spouse has always been faithful on saying his five prayers regardless of where he may be in or out of the Kingdom.
Lastly for everyone Dalioness is a female and not a male. While all may not have agreed with her views, in fairness, her comments have assisted towards enlightening others, challenging some and making everyone think and learn… mai oiu n’cest pas?
Tu as de raison Delhi-pour-chats, comme toujours!
merci bouquet!!
Thanks Carol for being a kind host although it was intense. I have learned a few things too, through this.
dalioness, Sorry for assuming you are a Male. Some stereo types remain with us no matter how much we try to get rid of them and I need to work on this one.
If it is any cancellation, I would have used the same intensity in my argument regardless of gender.
Regards..
Saudi in the USA,
I have seen a lot of what I call “takfiri light”. They believe the same thing as their friends in AQ and the like, they just want to package it different. Make it a more friendly extremism I guess.
At the end of the day it is the same thing. I had a lot of issues with people like this during the war between Lebanon and Israeli. Many takfiris and takfiri-light were actually on Israel’s side (if you can believe it) just because the ones fighting Israel were Shi’a.
I am not Shi’a, nor do I believe in any of the issues that seperate Shi’a from Sunni, but at the same time I realise that is an issue between them and God. People need to be given the right to practice their beliefs as they see fit.
It is ironic that these ultra Salafi types call for religious freedom in the West, then want to eliminate it in their countries.
Thanks AbuSinan, I think you raise some valid points. Moderate Muslims have a duty to change minds. In my opinion there are many Muslims that fall into radical thinking though 1 of 3 ways:
1) Ignorance and lack of education
2) Intense study of details while forgetting the principles that guide Islam (i.e. not seeing the forest from the trees). This is the case we have experienced here, where a few Ahadeith can guide a person to believe something that does not fit with the spirit of Islam. I noticed the focus on elimination of intellect when interpreting Islamic text in some of the arguments. This is a danger, because intellect is what allows a person to understand the spirit of the religion and to do more complete analysis than relying on isolated text.
3) Brainwashing: Unfortunately some religious leaders have direct an unquestionable influence on their followers. This is a mixed bag, if you have a moderate he/she can do a lot of good, but radicals can use the same method and to a higher degree of intensity that you can call it brainwashing.
I do not think most people will actually pick a fight. However, the expansion of this type of thinking among the masses creates a recruiting field for those that are calling for a fight. We need to confront it in words and using “Takfiri Ideology” as a term is valid. It serves to shock them into understanding the reality of their thinking and hopefully the smart ones can rethink their positions.
I agree with you 100%. Your point number two is very important I think. I think this is problem in not only the religious issues of the Middle East, but in Middle Eastern society in general.
There seems to be a lack of appreciation for innovation, creative thinking, as we would say here in the West “thinking outside the box”.
I think this is one of the reasons why the Middle East, who puts out so many great engineers, has an awful record when it comes to industrial innovation. It is one thing to master the mathematics of engineering, for whatever field, another thing to add a changing and evolving sense of forward thinking to it and create something new.
Engineering, like Islam, is not best understood by just looking at the details and the statics, they are best understood by using your brain and the things that you have learned to get to the root of things and make them better.
The Middle East, in many of it’s approaches, must look to innovation and thinking outside the box. Adherance strictly to rules without looking at ways of applying those rules to life as we know it today is no more good in religion than it is in engineering.
So, Abu Sinan, I got it completely wrong when I heard of Salafis, I thought that as they went ”back” to the true spirit of Islam, and to be like the companions of the Prophet that they would come out as learned, intelligent, compassionate, tolerant, understanding, etc.
I’m reading aboiut the life of the prophet right now. What do I get wrong? It is clear I don’t know nearly enough yet, but I’m getting very confused here.
Aafke,
I hope you do not mind me interjecting.
You are not getting anything wrong in my opinion. As I said in number 2 above, it is important to remember the principle of Islam when you do detailed study to apply rational thinking. I think you are doing that well. You actually stated a few good principles.
Saudi in US: I answered your email but you may want to check your spam filter as your email to me was in my spam folder!
[...] Saudi Arabia it is typical for commercial enterprises to close down daily during prayer times. As a result one must plan logistics carefully and especially in the earlier [...]
[...] Especially having lived in a country like Saudi Arabia where there is a mosque every 2-3 blocks, I and many others used (and some still are) to complain about how everything comes to a complete stand-still during prayer times. Everything from the small baqala (grocery shop) to the largest of the largest supermarket chains; the smallest start-up company to the biggest banks; and err… an online newspaper as well. There are even times when the traffic is at an all-time low during prayers. More about this can be read here. [...]